# Am I losing the plot?



## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Or is it a senior moment - I don't know.

I've lined up two test drives this week, one in a 2013 Cayman S PDK and one in a manual, back to back, after which I'll drive home in the GT-R.

Reason? Every where I've looked I've found reviews saying the 2013 Cayman S is an absolute drivers car and I want to see what all the fuss is about. Although I love the GT-R, I do miss the interaction of driving a manual and the GT-R is getting on for half a ton heavier than the Cayman. I know they are completely different animals but the new Cayman does appeal to me.

I will report back with my thoughts.

In the meantime...I look forward to your comments :smokin:


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Yes you are losing the plot, in fact you may have already lost it..... Quick quick get back into your GTR you silly boy... Lol


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

No, you aren't.

My love for convertibles has made me consider the same about the new boxster - it's also e of the best looking cars I've ever seen.

The manual element isn't my concern, i think there's no point hanging on to your attachment to three pedals as you are denying the inevitable. Twin clutch or the like is the future. Three pedals will be gone.

What puts me off the Porsches is tat once you scratch the drivers car itch and get used to the novelty and good looks, there's nothing to hold your interest.

Lets face it, everything now will feel painfully slow, at least the gtr, especially if you don't hammer it for a while, will always shock you. Then there's all that tuning potential which can make it feel like buying a new car every time you buy a toy for it.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

No you aren't, the Cayman is an attractive car (far better looking than the 911) and I've only heard good things about it's driveability and handling. The down side is that it will never get the range of engines that the 911 has, as it would affect 911 sales by then being a better car.

I would definitely like to own a Porsche at some point but I do have a bit of a mental block with the 911, most likely down to the fact that I always saw them as the 1980's yuppie default choice of performance car.

I think the Cayman could be a lot of fun and that aspect of car ownership can't be quantified by the opinions of other people, it's your choice.


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## Gavinsan (May 28, 2012)

I don't think you are losing it the cayman is a fab drivers car with great balance and handling. I have owned both and the extraction of the performance in the cayman is far easier on the road than the GTR. The Cayman is also really struggling with sales as most people have issues with the poor man's porsche reputation which means some good deals are out there . Finally the pdk gearbox with paddles is as good as the GTR gearbox and is light years ahead of the manual change which as Adam says is dead.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Don't make the mistake..... Been there done it got back into a gtr


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Some of us do have these moments.

I've though about the Boxter S and the Exige quite a bit, but just decided to build a fun car for track use, which will also be road legal.

Still a fan of the GT-R, but I don't find it that involving unless giving it the beans.


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## lordretsudo (Dec 24, 2011)

I can certainly understand it - I considered a Cayman too, and feel the same way about the manual gearbox (it's the one thing I really wish I could change about the GTR). The thing that swung it for me was that I really needed a back seat for the baby, in order to justify it to the wife!


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## wmd_gtr (Jan 15, 2013)

I was going to get a Cayman R before I looked at the GTR, but the salesman was a knob so that totally put me off.


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## Ja5on (Nov 18, 2009)

Always had a hankering to run an Exige S. If I could run one aswell as the GTR then I would with out a doubt.

The top spec Cayman did appeal but somit just didn't sit right with me. I love being able to mod a car and make it your own, and the GTR just fits that perfectly


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## ASH-R35 (Jun 7, 2013)

I had a 997 C2 a couple of years ago, and in all honesty I never really gelled with it...I just didn't 'get' the whole Porsche thing...the interior was horrid, the car wasn't 'that' quick, and the driving experience wasn't as good as many of the M cars that Ive driven....

Having said that, the latest Boxster looks stunning, and at £40k look like a bloody good car....it may be slower, but then so is my M3, but I still think the M3 is in some ways a better drive than the GTR......


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I ran an exige S at the same time as number 3 gtr and ended up selling them the same day.

It was 3 days before I wanted a GTR in my life again. That was Feb 2012. Last month I started looking for another Exige.

Irrelevant really as this is all about the cayman.

Re the gearbox, people, you have to put it behind you. It's like hanging on to the crank handle on old school cars, or those bizarre gearboxes and clutches they used to have.

Face it, the stick shift is dead. The death knells came when the 458 and the GT3 were no longer offered in a manual variant.

Learn to live with it.


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

I feel I might be able to add some gravity to this thread. I have gone from a stage 1 GTR circa 520bhp to a GT3 circa 420bhp and now find myself in a Cayman R ( didnt want to suffer depreciation with a new shape cayman ) which is circa 330bhp.

Whilst I have taken this drop in power , the magic of actually driving has increased. For starters the weight of the car also dropped from a 2 tonne barge to a 1380kg GT3 and slightly less , about 1300kg in the cayman R.

There is no substitution for outright grunt off the line and no car will be able to match the GTR for that , especially if you have had some tuning work done. But for me , its not about the straight line , more the corners.

The cayman R is a fantastic mid engined tool with sublime handling and the new shape has built on this slightly. There is no denying the beauty of the new shape but they still command a high price once spec'd up. I have returned to old school manual with a 6 speed box and 3 pedals. The gearbox is a peach and far more satisfying than a quick paddle flick. Ultimately , it is not as fast round a circuit as a GTR but it is way more involving and that is the crucial point. The Cayman can be pushed on the road and with all the associated noises and control interactions gives me "more feel". The induction noise alone is spine tingling seeing as your virtually sat on the engine !

As for "losing the plot" - not at all. Horses for courses. I change my cars around 2 years and typically I go for a mad ,bad , seriously quick car and then get bored so go back to a more "normal" car and then back to a quick one again etc etc. I seriously thought that jumping out of a GTR for a GT3 I would miss the GTR but , not a bit. No disrespect to the GTR. I thought the same when I test drove the Cayman R but just fell in love with it from the moment I got into it. Totally docile when you do not want to go quick and then a snarling beast once you prod it.

The Porsche dealer network knocks socks off Nissan and the Porsche warranty is bumper to bumper regardless of being tracked or used as intended . Take note Nissan.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Chris956 said:


> The Porsche dealer network knocks socks off Nissan and the Porsche warranty is bumper to bumper regardless of being tracked or used as intended . Take note Nissan.


That's no surprise.
Even dealers selling far cheaper cars (ie, Skoda) are way better than Nissan in my experience.
I only buy Nissan's that other people don't compete with at a decent level. Such as the LEAF and GT-R.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Chris956,

You do realise the GTR is 1730kg, which is "only" 350kg more than the GT3. Granted, that still a lot but it's more than 270kg less than the two tonnes you refer to it as.

Have you sold the GT3 in favour of the cayman or are you running both?

I have to fight myself not to buy a pdk'd new shape boxster, but I know I'll lose interest once I can't modify it. 

Exige is proper the better equivalent option for me.


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

I can confirm that you haven't lost the plot - on your own at least!

A couple of weeks ago I also drove the new Cayman S with PDK and everything that has been written about the new car is correct. Dynamically it is sublime, ergonomically great and with fabulous looks. The down side is less power and no rear seats whatsoever, with more tyre noise than I would have expected. 

Having owned two Caymans before and a few 911's, I can understand all the sensible comments above, and I have to consider what will come after the GT-R as a fun/ holiday second car. Nothing will really compete on performance so either accept it and enjoy the Cayman or go for the new 911 GT3 which I am trying next week.

I suspect that I will keep the GT-R, but the GT3 is comparable for performance but would cost nearly £104k properly specified compared with about 60k for the Cayman S spec'd up. 

My head says one thing and my heart is jumping all over the place............. 
Opinions please


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> Chris956,
> 
> You do realise the GTR is 1730kg, which is "only" 350kg more than the GT3. Granted, that still a lot but it's more than 270kg less than the two tonnes you refer to it as.
> 
> ...


Hey dude .... on the scales at 30-130 with 2 passengers my car was a tad under 2 tonne and I'm not a fatty !!!! full tank of juice probably didnt help.

Just running the CR at the moment but plan to upgrade to the new shape when they reach reasonable money but they do not lend themselves to modifying. Firstly as its normally aspirated the gains are minimal and the all important warranty is then put in jeopardy.

I did test drive an exige before committing to the CR but the build quality is terrible ( £30k for a car that has huge panel gaps and leaks when it rains is laughable ) and the interior is sparse to say the least. If I go down that route then I will do it properly and get a caterham R500. 

You can tune the exige but even thats gets awkward as the gearboxes are made of chocolate. The new one is supposed to be better. That is one of the things I had to get used to as owning an Evo then a GTR , something always needed doing in the garage whether it be an oil change or brake fluid flush, pad change or tyre change. The "tinkering" possibilities were plentyfull. Not so with the Porsche. Drive , clean & cover it up. Repeat

Back to the weight of the Cayman - it all helps and the GTR hides its bulk well until you give it some helmet and then look at the brakes and tyres !


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Chris956 said:


> Hey dude .... on the scales at 30-130 with 2 passengers my car was a tad under 2 tonne and I'm not a fatty !!!! full tank of juice probably didnt help.


fair play - fatty - but you can't compare the loaded wet weight of the gtr to the quoted dry weight of the cayman and the gt3. You'd need to add the same 250kg to their weights too!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Chris956 said:


> I did test drive an exige before committing to the CR but the build quality is terrible ( £30k for a car that has huge panel gaps and leaks when it rains is laughable ) and the interior is sparse to say the least. If I go down that route then I will do it properly and get a caterham R500.


I came to exactly that confusion, except ultimately the CSR looks to be the better caterham than the R500.

I also came across that gearbox problem in person with the exige. Iwas about to pull thr trigger on a 2.0tfsi s-tronic audi conversion, then realised it was modding I enjoy more than driving.

I think if I was all about the driving experience only, I'd have a new model boxster s, or perhaps a 458 spider.

If you really want to be a driver, it's got to be open roofed!


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> fair play - fatty - but you can't compare the loaded wet weight of the gtr to the quoted dry weight of the cayman and the gt3. You'd need to add the same 250kg to their weights too!


Who you calling fat !!  Its still 2 tonnes charging around on the limit

The new Caterham 620 is soon to be released for complete bonkers fun


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris956 welcome back mate, haven't heard from you in a while!

We run both a Cayman S pdk and a Cayman R manual (with sports shifter) alongside my GTR. 
The Caymans are fantastic fun, reasonably fast when you wring them out, great turn in /steering and quite neutral u/o steer. A great time can be had with 2 caymans chasing each other around.
My lads R has a couple of mods and the drive ability is noticeable. Although straight line flat out in Sport plus the S there's nothing in it.
I find the S pdk box a bit more vague somehow in manual than the GTR although it's real quick to change up and down and in auto is better. 
Oddly it feels great to me to stir the R manual box and for some reason I seem to find myself in better gears and more aware of the rev limiter etc with a manual box (I tend to get too click happy in dual clutch units cos they're so easy to shift)
On track we find the R is really fulfilling to drive fast being quite different to the GTR missile. 
They're great cars IMO and having one in your garage if you can manage it is worthwhile, even if only for use as a commuter DD and track toy.

Back to the GTR though...it kills the Caymans on track speed wise and does it so easily with monstrous grunt that the old adage "not as involving" becomes true imo.
Have both and and throw in a fast hatch for an affordable "dream" garage


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

OldBob said:


> Chris956 welcome back mate, haven't heard from you in a while!
> 
> We run both a Cayman S pdk and a Cayman R manual (with sports shifter) alongside my GTR.
> The Caymans are fantastic fun, reasonably fast when you wring them out, great turn in /steering and quite neutral u/o steer. A great time can be had with 2 caymans chasing each other around.
> ...


Hey mate ... hows tricks. I pop in every now and then and have a poke about which is why I saw this thread. What mods has your boy done to his "R". Subtle or bleeding obvious ??

As you say , they are great fun to ring out on track. Maybe thats alot of the fun and why I prefer it to the GT3. Easier and less risky to drive it on , and over the limit.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

nurburgringgtr said:


> I can confirm that you haven't lost the plot - on your own at least!
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I also drove the new Cayman S with PDK and everything that has been written about the new car is correct. Dynamically it is sublime, ergonomically great and with fabulous looks. The down side is less power and no rear seats whatsoever, with more tyre noise than I would have expected.
> 
> ...


^ John this is the thought process I'm in right now too, having not had a 911 personally though yet. I can't wait to have a go in a new GT3 but not sure if the Norbert Colon in me could live with shelling out that much into a brand new car. I can't think of anything else that's going to tempt me away from the GTR, presently though, except maybe a later model..


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

OldBob said:


> ^ John this is the thought process I'm in right now too, having not had a 911 personally though yet. I can't wait to have a go in a new GT3 but not sure if the Norbert Colon in me could live with shelling out that much into a brand new car. I can't think of anything else that's going to tempt me away from the GTR, presently though, except maybe a later model..


The engine is still fundamentally in the wrong place which means fun on trackdays will be expensive if you try too hard


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris, my lads R is peridot colour and devoid of every standard weight option except the nav.
He's put on a Remus TI exhaust (sounds lovely); GT3 throttle body and IPD competition plenum; Softronic remap. This expensive lot I have to say has not made hardly any difference straight line power wise (which is a bit of a surprise) to the S pdk (which we benchmark drives against). However the R "feels" so much more alive and has definitely got more drive-ability torque wise now.
We have Fabspeed sports cat headers on order and hope that the overall combination then delivers a bit more power (it would really benefit from it imo)
I have to say those costs of mods yield over 100 bhp more in the GTR world! This NA stuff is much more difficult to pimp. 

Lastly he'll be upgrading the front discs to 340mm Giro's with RS29 pagids front and back.

You thinking of any days at Brands in the near future, give us a shout if so and we could have a Cayman fest ;-)


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

OldBob said:


> Chris, my lads R is peridot colour and devoid of every standard weight option except the nav.
> He's put on a Remus TI exhaust (sounds lovely); GT3 throttle body and IPD competition plenum; Softronic remap. This expensive lot I have to say has not made hardly any difference straight line power wise (which is a bit of a surprise) to the S pdk (which we benchmark drives against). However the R "feels" so much more alive and has definitely got more drive-ability torque wise now.
> We have Fabspeed sports cat headers on order and hope that the overall combination then delivers a bit more power (it would really benefit from it imo)
> I have to say those costs of mods yield over 100 bhp more in the GTR world! This NA stuff is much more difficult to pimp.
> ...


Blimey ... thats a warranty busting lot !!! But like I posted earlier , the power gains are marginal. I`ve got a set of trackpads I drop in purely for the day and then swap straight back to road pads the next day. The callipers & rotors are fine and size of brakes I think suitable for the car. I feel no need to upgrade any more apart from a fluid refresh.

.... and on that note Bob ... YES ... Cadwell booked on Oct 2nd. Anglesea booked on 27th Oct which will be combined with an evo triangle hoon the day before and after and Donnington being talked about 15th or 16th August.


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## anissut1974 (Jul 10, 2013)

When I bought the GTR a few weeks ago I had the GT3, Cayman R and 997 Turbo as my alternatives.

While a 997 GT3 has always been a dream car for me it was compromised. I wanted a daily car and the GT3's ride would have been worse than the GTR. Clearance over speed bumps would have been a nightmare and the manual gearbox while amazing for spirited drives would have annoyed me daily. Lack of sound deadening and engine noise would have given me a headache. Also, no rear seats as well. Cayman R was a no no once I realised I couldn't fit my golf clubs in. Also, having 2 kids I sometimes need the rear seats. With the 997 Turbo, with the budget I was looking at, it would've been a Gen 1 and either manual or tiptronic as the PDK Gen 2s are still pretty expensive in comparison.

So, in reality the GTR is for me (and others) a better package in terms of everyday use, practicality, comfort, performance, value for money. I agree that on a one off drive or series of drives the new Cayman, GT3 etc. might be better but as an overall ownership package, taking into account value for money, the GTR wins for me.

I also like the fact that I only get a buzz when I drive the GTR fast. I think that's the whole point. Drive it like a daily car in comfort and with no fuss but then it turns into a hooligan when you need it to.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris956 said:


> Blimey ... thats a warranty busting lot !!! But like I posted earlier , the power gains are marginal. I`ve got a set of trackpads I drop in purely for the day and then swap straight back to road pads the next day. The callipers & rotors are fine and size of brakes I think suitable for the car. I feel no need to upgrade any more apart from a fluid refresh.
> 
> .... and on that note Bob ... YES ... Cadwell booked on Oct 2nd. Anglesea booked on 27th Oct which will be combined with an evo triangle hoon the day before and after and Donnington being talked about 15th or 16th August.


He's got all of the replaced OEM parts in the loft in case ;-)


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

OldBob said:


> He's got all of the replaced OEM parts in the loft in case ;-)


That old one eh ? Fancy any of those dates for a Cayman R face off ???

:chuckle:


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

I was just looking a Cadwell on the 2nd Oct - Javelin trackday (I've used them before). You defo in for that one?


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

OldBob said:


> I was just looking a Cadwell on the 2nd Oct - Javelin trackday (I've used them before). You defo in for that one?


Yep ... booked and paid ....3 of us so far but maybe 2 more GT3's including the new 991 version :chuckle:

We'll be staying in the Admiral Rodney.


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

ASH-R35 said:


> I had a 997 C2 a couple of years ago, and in all honesty I never really gelled with it...I just didn't 'get' the whole Porsche thing...the interior was horrid, the car wasn't 'that' quick, and the driving experience wasn't as good as many of the M cars that Ive driven....
> 
> Having said that, the latest Boxster looks stunning, and at £40k look like a bloody good car....it may be slower, but then so is my M3, but I still think the M3 is in some ways a better drive than the GTR......


:thumbsup:

My M3 is better in every way expect for when you want outright speed.

The GTR isnt the be all and end all. There are plenty of nice cars out there and its not all about bhp.

Variety is the spice of life


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

FLYNN said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> My M3 is better in every way expect for when you want outright speed.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. And as others have said, the GTR's forte is not to be an involving drive. It's a very quick car, but on a normal day to day drive it does not deliver a driving experience like other cars can. 

Not sure about the Cayman, but I had a brief drive in a Boxster Spyder and found it lacked any sort of character, and was pretty boring. Maybe I would have liked it if I spent more time with it. 

For me, speed does not equal fun, and in fact one of the most satisfying things about driving is wringing the neck out of a car and knowing you've extracted performance out of the car, rather than the car has delivered performance - if that makes sense. I think I've come to the conclusion that I want a chassis to dominate the engine and not the other way around, and that there is an optimal amount of power for the road to have fun.


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Fred said:


> I agree with this. And as others have said, the GTR's forte is not to be an involving drive. It's a very quick car, but on a normal day to day drive it does not deliver a driving experience like other cars can.
> 
> Not sure about the Cayman, but I had a brief drive in a Boxster Spyder and found it lacked any sort of character, and was pretty boring. Maybe I would have liked it if I spent more time with it.
> 
> For me, speed does not equal fun, and in fact one of the most satisfying things about driving is wringing the neck out of a car and knowing you've extracted performance out of the car, rather than the car has delivered performance - if that makes sense. I think I've come to the conclusion that I want a chassis to dominate the engine and not the other way around, and that there is an optimal amount of power for the road to have fun.


I think you've hit the nail on the head for me there fella. Sums up what I'm thinking perfectly.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

It's so nice to see people coming to a realisation about their car likes and dislikes.

I've known for some time that my passion for cars is appreciation of the engineering and the ability to mod.

The thing I most love about the GTR is its capacity to be modified. It enables it to be fun, thought provoking and daydream consuming without being anywhere near it.

If you get your kicks from driving, you don't get your kicks when you aren't driving it, aside from fond memories.

Since I enjoying planning the changes I'm going to make, I've managed to enjoy many many cars, often prior to owning them and some without ever eventually owning at all!


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Reminds of the Top Gear episode where a load of beards prepped a frog eye sprite for a hill climb against some geezers in a pimped up saxo. Both groups had fun ,just different sorts of fun.


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Chris956 said:


> Reminds of the Top Gear episode where a load of beards prepped a frog eye sprite for a hill climb against some geezers in a pimped up saxo. Both groups had fun ,just different sorts of fun.


I haven't got a beard...do I need to grow one? :nervous:


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Karls said:


> I haven't got a beard...do I need to grow one? :nervous:


Well it all depends how you define fun ???


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

GTR is a GT / sports car designed for the road that happens to also be quick round a track but the set up compromise is clearly towards making it a better road car. GT3 is a road version of a track car and the compromise is track biased. As a result if a journey has a lot of town or motorway or bad weather driving the GTR wins hands down and the GT3 doesn't get a look in. So I find the GT3 only gets used for the sake of driving rather than as a purposeful tool. As a road car for real life driving the GTR is the better car and the GT3 is an "experience". That's not to say you couldn't live with the GT3 as an everyday driver but it is not as well suited to the task as a Carrera S so in summary find the windows to exploit the GT3's skillset is far smaller than the GTR's.

With regards the Cayman I would suspect it would be somewhere in between the GTR and GT3 but closer to the GT3. ie feel more fighter jet than Lear jet in the dynamics department but know that, at least in my typical usage, I would experience the so called "driver's car" benefits far less of the time than the GTR's real world advantages I'd be giving up. Conclusion - can never be totally happy unless you get both!


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## bobel (Jul 26, 2010)

I attend trackdays with pretty much the same group of guys each time and the mix of cars is wide and varied from cheap and cheerful to Ferrari's and its very obvious that neither straight line speed nor cornering ability is what leads to the excitement. Like the OP I often think about what I'll move to next and if I might be better of with a more track friendly car that doesn't eat consumables, 

Funnily enough as mentioned earlier lotus Elise's and Exiges are the weapon of choice at my local track and a race prepped Honda engined Elise currently holds the time attack record, having seen how capable they are I must admit I'm tempted by a Honda K20 engined Elise/Exige as a trackday toy that would probably be a better option for trackdays and I would probably be more inclined to push on in one too!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

The driveshaft angle of the k20 Honda engine n the Exige chassis is compromised. Look at the Audi conversions! Doesn't take much money to get them to gtr straight line performance.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

bobel said:


> I attend trackdays with pretty much the same group of guys each time and the mix of cars is wide and varied from cheap and cheerful to Ferrari's and its very obvious that neither straight line speed nor cornering ability is what leads to the excitement. Like the OP I often think about what I'll move to next and if I might be better of with a more track friendly car that doesn't eat consumables,
> 
> Funnily enough as mentioned earlier lotus Elise's and Exiges are the weapon of choice at my local track and a race prepped Honda engined Elise currently holds the time attack record, having seen how capable they are I must admit I'm tempted by a Honda K20 engined Elise/Exige as a trackday toy that would probably be a better option for trackdays and I would probably be more inclined to push on in one too!


Totally agree with you on what makes a for a fun track car but if it's not your only car and you want something that's cheap to maintain (re consumables and prangs), as much fun as you're ever going to have in a car on a track and eat the Lotus brigade for breakfast I would seriously suggest you try a race prepared Caterham R300 if you haven't already. What's your local track?


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## bobel (Jul 26, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> The driveshaft angle of the k20 Honda engine n the Exige chassis is compromised. Look at the Audi conversions! Doesn't take much money to get them to gtr straight line performance.


That's interesting must look at that, there are three guys i know with conversions at my trackdays, 2 are running K20 Elise's, and one is a K20 exige, I wasn't aware there was an issue with drive shafts, although one of GE guys did comment on expensive updated shafts so I assume that's why!!!


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## bobel (Jul 26, 2010)

mags993tt said:


> Totally agree with you on what makes a for a fun track car but if it's not your only car and you want something that's cheap to maintain (re consumables and prangs), as much fun as you're ever going to have in a car on a track and eat the Lotus brigade for breakfast I would seriously suggest you try a race prepared Caterham R300 if you haven't already. What's your local track?


Local track is Mondello park (I'm based in Ireland), the current TA record is 1.52 or slightly below IIRC, for comparison the overall track record for a non F1 car was set by a Porker GT2 racecar at 1.42, I'm lapping at 1.58 on my trackdays in the GTR.

The main benefit of an Elise/Exige as opposed the a Caterham would be the need to have something a little more bearable in the bloody Irish wet weather! Realistically 50% of the trackdays are likely to be wet


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

mags993tt said:


> Conclusion - can never be totally happy unless you get both!


Or get the real deal


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## Gasman (Mar 24, 2013)

FLYNN said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> My M3 is better in every way expect for when you want outright speed.
> 
> ...


Interesting you say this because I think the gtr actually has more steering feel than an m3. I guess we're all on journey and have arrived at the gtr for our own reasons (I was frustrated with the lack of low down torque in the m3). The question is what comes after the gtr? It makes sense to say something more delicate like a cayman as it renowned for being a 'drivers' car which you might yearn for having owned a brutish gtr. 

The interesting thing that strikes me in this forum is the number of people who come back to the gtr. Is there really life after it?!...


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## ASH-R35 (Jun 7, 2013)

Gasman said:


> Interesting you say this because I think the gtr actually has more steering feel than an m3. I guess we're all on journey and have arrived at the gtr for our own reasons (I was frustrated with the lack of low down torque in the m3). The question is what comes after the gtr? It makes sense to say something more delicate like a cayman as it renowned for being a 'drivers' car which you might yearn for having owned a brutish gtr.
> 
> The interesting thing that strikes me in this forum is the number of people who come back to the gtr. Is there really life after it?!...


M3 imho has vastly better steering feel and feedback than the gtr......the m3 steering is sublime!

The gtr delivers in the raw power stakes....nothing ive ever driven accerates like it!


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

bobel said:


> Local track is Mondello park (I'm based in Ireland), the current TA record is 1.52 or slightly below IIRC, for comparison the overall track record for a non F1 car was set by a Porker GT2 racecar at 1.42, I'm lapping at 1.58 on my trackdays in the GTR.
> 
> The main benefit of an Elise/Exige as opposed the a Caterham would be the need to have something a little more bearable in the bloody Irish wet weather! Realistically 50% of the trackdays are likely to be wet


Not familiar with that track but I hear you on the weather front. At least the windscreen won't mist up


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Fred said:


> Or get the real deal


Or something a little more sensible


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

If its a gt3 it has to be the rs, plus it's probably cheaper to own due to depreciation.

Trouble with 911s is the engine is always going to be in the wrong place. Yes they can engineer around it but with a clean sheet, no or in their right minds would design a rear engine car these days.

It's time the 911 was allowed to die for technology reasons but or marketing reasons porshe will never do it.


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

But the new GT3 has received fantastic reviews from the motoring press; supposed to be an absolute weapon.


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## Gasman (Mar 24, 2013)

ASH-R35 said:


> M3 imho has vastly better steering feel and feedback than the gtr......the m3 steering is sublime!
> 
> The gtr delivers in the raw power stakes....nothing ive ever driven accerates like it!


I would say the handling of the m3 is sublime, but the steering feels a little numb (don't think the fat steering wheel helps). I get more feedback through a gtr's wheel. I think that is one of the reasons it inspires so much confidence. 

Going back to the original point, sure the gtr doesn't offer much involvement until you are doing very inappropriate speeds for public roads. So if you want more involvement more of the time, perhaps a fiesta ST or gt86 would solve your problems


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## anthonymcgrath (Feb 22, 2005)

Just go and get a 32gtr or 34gtr.. Older car maybe but far more drive involvement.. Manual.. Mental power and superb handling.. And you don't become a dark cloak wearing turncoat monkey that shies away from the gtr for a hairdresser car


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

All those f1, touring car, Le Mans and rally drivers clearly aren't if they don't have three pedals and an H-gate.

When will people realise that these things are not required to make a car a drivers car, they are just a relic of the operation method chosen for an antiquated inferior technology. Did people mourn the loss of the manual choke too and pivoted b-pillar mounted manual indicators?


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## ASH-R35 (Jun 7, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> All those f1, touring car, Le Mans and rally drivers clearly aren't if they don't have three pedals and an H-gate.
> 
> When will people realise that these things are not required to make a car a drivers car, they are just a relic of the operation method chosen for an antiquated inferior technology. Did people mourn the loss of the manual choke too and pivoted b-pillar mounted manual indicators?


In fairness, there is still much to be said for the good 'ol stick shift.....people like them and its clearly a matter of personal preference...

the manual choke and indicators you mention play no part in the driving experience of the actual vehicle so I doubt they will be mourned as long as the manual 'box!


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## Neanderthal (Apr 5, 2013)

you say that, but I was convinced if I ran my first car (Fiesta) with the choke out it was faster, added a lot to the driving experience trying to push that beast up to 70+mph!


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> No, you aren't.
> 
> My love for convertibles has made me consider the same about the new boxster - it's also e of the best looking cars I've ever seen.
> 
> ...


totally agree, i see my self doing this with so many car's and i come to the same conclusion. I'll enjoy the car for a few weeks then feel something is missing. After you get used to the looks and speed of the car it starts to get boring. The thing with the GT-R is you can drive it spiritedly every day and it will put a massive smile on your face, the reason you dont get bored is because the car will keep going (grip etc) but you will most likely scare the hell out of your self way before you reach the limit (which is a lot of fun). its like on the way to work i know all the bends even slow ones and when bored i try and best my g force score. Car can easily do more but not me. 

not many cars you can do that with. 458 spider, yes. Dont think id get tired of the drama with the roof off. but on damp days id not bother taking it out. In fact was saving for one but now my money is going to a new Range Rover.

I would have thought the obvious choice for you other then the gtr was the mp4 spider. Send it to litchfields for some mods.


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## Jibber_monkey (Oct 1, 2012)

Interesting thread this as I've been grappling with a similar dilemma. I recently bought an old e46 M3 that we're about to turn into a race car for next season's Kumho Championship. Before we strip it back to its undercrackers I've been smoking about in it for the past couple of weeks to check for any faults etc. This car is over 10 years old, has pants tyres and a manual box but I have found it more fun, more of the time than the GT-R. It will oversteer on command and you can hold amusing angles whenever the mood takes you. Now the GT-R is similarly adjustable over the limit but you have to drive around the 4wd system even with TC turned off and you are travelling at what can only be described as anti-social speeds when you do. In all objective measures the GT-R is the infinitely better car but I still have this nagging doubt that it's more capable than it is fun. Seeing as e46 M3s are so cheap now the answer may just be to have both!


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## Jibber_monkey (Oct 1, 2012)

Gasman said:


> Interesting you say this because I think the gtr actually has more steering feel than an m3


Certainly true that the GT-R has way more steering feel than the e46 M3 and M3 CSL. Not nearly as much lock though


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## goldgtr35 (Aug 15, 2012)

Jibber_monkey said:


> Certainly true that the GT-R has way more steering feel than the e46 M3 and M3 CSL. Not nearly as much lock though


i feel the same way with the M3, bought my son a 2011 . steering wheel is so thick, its horrible, Car feels very slow compaired to the GTR and not much feed back through the steering wheel.
M3 is still a great car ive owned 2 but dont think they are in the same class,
BMW must think they have had their day, As the last one has already rolled of the line and the next cars going to be a M4 ,, what ever that is
Going to get shot down in flames here but here goes,
"porsche engine in wrong place",, I disagree there, all the weight over the rear wheel better for traction, we all know if you over cook it you can be in big trouble.
But that goes for any car,Drive within you ability and not the cars, I still own a 996TT its still a fantastic car even in todays standards. 420 Bhp 4x4.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

when you accelerate, weight shifts backwards, a mid rear engine is a better option.

If weight is behind the rear axle the weight is still over the rear wheels but also pushes the front wheels up.

Great for traction, not so great for stability.

More importantly, weight is further away from central point of z-axis which increases polar moment. Makes the car less agile and more prone to pendulum.

As stated before, you want as much of the weight as possible as low as possible and preferably as close to the c of m as possible - that's always going to be between the axles.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

goldgtr35 said:


> i feel the same way with the M3, bought my son a 2011 . steering wheel is so thick, its horrible, Car feels very slow compaired to the GTR and not much feed back through the steering wheel.
> M3 is still a great car ive owned 2 but dont think they are in the same class,
> BMW must think they have had their day, As the last one has already rolled of the line and the next cars going to be a M4 ,, what ever that is
> Going to get shot down in flames here but here goes,
> ...


Agree with all points. I actually sold my M3 within 10 months because of the steering and put it down to the fact that it must have been a bad one because everyone raved about it so much. Also the steering wheel thickness was not for me.

I have also had countless debates about the rear engine nature of the 911 with my mates. It makes me laugh. Rear engine for a road car is far more practical. It means you have child / emergency seats at the back and a lot of extra luggage space. In terms of dynamics it gives extra traction which is probably the single most useful dynamic to get your power to the road but yes more racing cars would be built with rear engines if it wasn't easier / better to put the engine elsewhere but guess what...this is a road car and not a race car and also guess what...the race cars seem to do rather well so it really shouldn't trouble someone buying a road car 911 at all - it's just makes the car a better road car (where you'll be driving it 99.9pct of the time) with better traction and more load space!

Also struck me the OP initial thoughts on a Cayman were very real world. It is a great drivers car without the hype. The only issue is, as others have said, it may lack the special ingredient that keeps one excited about their car for a prolonged period of time. The GTR has that ingredient as do other "exotics".

With regards the GT3RS, as desirable as it is, it really makes no sense over a GT3. The modern day RS's are a marketing tool. Thinner glass all round, scratchy plastic rear window, sticker instead of a badge on the bonnet to save weight and fabric door pulls instead of a handle - please...again I'll say it - It's a road car. Don't let the marketers fool you into thinking it's a race car. Even on a track the difference in lap time between a GT3 and GT3RS (due to marginal weight saving, marginal wider track etc) is minute...but who cares...it's a road car and not about to enter any competitions so you end up putting up with 50pct more headache for 0.1 pct performance gain on a track....but...it's a road car not a track car and most owners would bever notice the difference...

If anyone doesn't believe me they should drive a cup car. And if they really want a race car on the road they should buy a second hand one and convert it to being road legal then they will have a real race car on the road at a fraction of the cost of an RS and have a much more capable track car (and a much bigger headache). The point being that real world driving conditions on the road do need to play a big part in a purchase decision as well as the passion element.

On the gearbox front - although it's less efficient than a paddle shift it can be one of the most involving and satisfying elements in the experience of driving a sports car and is an art to be mastered unto itself so agree with others who don't think it's necessarily a positive to move to paddle shift if looking for drive enjoyment rather than lap time. It actually is the single biggest factor that puts me off the new GT3 as I already own what is arguably the best all round road car / sports car and it has a paddle shift - the GTR :thumbsup:


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

mags993tt said:


> With regards the GT3RS, as desirable as it is, it really makes no sense over a GT3. The modern day RS's are a marketing tool. Thinner glass all round, scratchy plastic rear window, sticker instead of a badge on the bonnet to save weight and fabric door pulls instead of a handle - please...again I'll say it - It's a road car. Don't let the marketers fool you into thinking it's a race car. Even on a track the difference in lap time between a GT3 and GT3RS (due to marginal weight saving, marginal wider track etc) is minute...but who cares...it's a road car and not about to enter any competitions so you end up putting up with 50pct more headache for 0.1 pct performance gain on a track....but...it's a road car not a track car and most owners would bever notice the difference...



Don't really get the 50pc more headache. An RS is far more desirable than a GT3, and whilst the differences aren't big, it's still a better car, it's more powerful, revs quicker, is quicker, it's better looking (I know that's subjective) and lighter. Not sure where the downside to all that is?

Oh and the bonnet badge is not a sticker  (you're stuck in 2004, and the 996 GT3 RS).

As a car it is truly brilliant. Far more of a drivers' car on the road than the GTR and that's not just down to the manual gearchange.


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

what defines a drivers car is totally dependent on the driver...there's no right answer.

to me a drivers car is a car "I" want to drive for the sake of driving pleasure not necessarily to get somewhere or race someone.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I suggested the RS over the GT3 purely from an economics point of view. They hold their value far better.

Nothing more.

The engine in the wrong place thing is of course all about the theory. It just annoys me from a technical point of view. I'm not arrogant enough to think I could extract even 50% of the ability of any of these cars, so the fact that one may have theoretically higher limits, is irrelevant when I can't get close to them.

I love the GTR for its technical merits on paper. There's an appreciation to knowing it has been cleverly thought out that makes it a more attractive prospect to own. Conversely I perceive the 911 as a triumph of marketing over its inherently flawed design. Yes brilliant engineers have made it a very capable machine, but it annoys me that the basic layout is just wrong in theory. I have a mental block stopping me from ever buying one. I have greatly enjoyed the several that I've driven, but my feeling about the car is marred by the knowledge I have.

It's my stumbling block, but everyone else in the thread will only ever be able to offer their own opinions, so why should I be any different?


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

Impossible said:


> what defines a drivers car is totally dependent on the driver...there's no right answer.
> 
> to me a drivers car is a car "I" want to drive for the sake of driving pleasure not necessarily to get somewhere or race someone.


This a 100% mate. After reading through this thread I was contemplating what to post and then you beat me to it  

We are all different and as such a car I like to drive another wont. I loved the R8 V10 but others on here don't agree. Goldie hated his. We are both petrol heads (have you seen his collection) and have both ended up with a R35 yet obviously we have different tastes. It's what makes the world an interesting place to be 

OP, personally I don't think you're mad at all. The Porker is a fantastic car so go with it and enjoy.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Fred said:


> Don't really get the 50pc more headache. An RS is far more desirable than a GT3, and whilst the differences aren't big, it's still a better car, it's more powerful, revs quicker, is quicker, it's better looking (I know that's subjective) and lighter. Not sure where the downside to all that is?
> 
> Oh and the bonnet badge is not a sticker  (you're stuck in 2004, and the 996 GT3 RS).
> 
> As a car it is truly brilliant. Far more of a drivers' car on the road than the GTR and that's not just down to the manual gearchange.


I'm a massive Porsche fan so always have that at the back of my head when I'm trying to be objective in the context of someone looking for a road driving experience. I'm so glad they are back to the badge rather than the sticker  They are truly brilliant cars.

I thought long and hard about the GT3 vs GT3RS from a purely practical and real world driving experience perspective. I was replacing a Carrera S which I thought was a fantastic every day sports car. It didn't need replacing but I had always dreamt of having a GT3 - basically a distilled or more concentrated version of the standard 911. I was also going to use it as a daily driver so I didn't want it to be completely spartan and knew I was going to spec some options so the weight difference was going to be irrelevant. I also race and own race cars so was not looking for a track car - purely a road car.

So my thinking was I don't really want to put up with un-adjustable bucket seats, rear roll cage, less soundproofing, unavailable options etc for a performance gain that would never be realised in road driving. Hence my point about weighing up the extra headaches vs the benefits. The heart says RS but the head says not but it's a very personal set of criteria and for some the specific inconveniences would be outweighed by the emotion the RS badge gives them. If I were honest, I'm guilty of the same thing - I'd say the Carrera S was actually the better road car as an every day driver in most circumstances and I would rather still live with the GT3 for what it gives me so there you go. Going more race car-esque was a step to far for me but all too aware what I may find an inconvenience others may feel adds to their enjoyment.

I'd agree with you that it's a better "drivers car" on the road (as that is typically defined) than the GTR but I find myself taking the GTR keys with me on most occasions which tells me, at least for my typical driving needs, that the GTR may be the better all round car..It's quite possible I'd find the Cayman a better road car than my GT3 but I wouldn't swap.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> I suggested the RS over the GT3 purely from an economics point of view. They hold their value far better.
> 
> Nothing more.
> 
> ...


Fair points. I did think about the depreciation aspects and it's how I convinced myself getting rid of the Carrera S was a good idea though the RS depreciates slower than the GT3 so that's a plus point for the RS!


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Test drives are tomorrow.

Thanks for all the posts; it's made for a cracking thread!


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## SamboGrove (Jun 27, 2010)

Let us know what you think :thumbsup:

I won't be selling the GTR but evey now and then get the itch just to try something different. Will give the Alfa 4C a go when that arrives and keep driving past the Jaguar garage looking at the F-type!

By the way i love how this thread escalated from a cayman to GT3 vs GT3RS!


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## Natbrat300 (Mar 6, 2012)

SamboGrove said:


> Let us know what you think :thumbsup:
> 
> I won't be selling the GTR but evey now and then get the itch just to try something different. Will give the Alfa 4C a go when that arrives and keep driving past the Jaguar garage looking at the F-type!
> 
> By the way i love how this thread escalated from a cayman to GT3 vs GT3RS!


This could quite easily be a thread about women! Lol. Men, never satisfied!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Alfa 4c, that's worth a look, especially the drop top.


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

saw the alpha 4c in Geneva and it looks awful in person and so did the build quality, rather have a cayman any day.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

That's a shame. I suspected it might happen when alfa try to do carbon fibre.

Do like the idea of it though. Seriously low weight potential, relatively high power, mid engine and twin clutch.

I was considering that or the audi R4/VW Bluesport, but the latter platform looks like it has died a death.


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

I was like ohhh the alpha 4c! lets go have a look (to the wife), your going to like this (thinking of the concept interior and heavily photoshopped pictures i've seen online). Wife response 'its got the same interior as my old fiat'.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Re the pork and engine position this old article talks a bit about it. I personally think the article "test" is b****x as a technical comparison of the layout's and there's too much performance skew to make a judgement either, but a read nonetheless.
The Mid- vs. Rear-Engine Debate: Porsche Cayman R vs. 911 GT3 - Feature - Car and Driver
Chris has had a GT3 and now is into an R he and any others that have had both probably have the best perspective.
Re the GTR this thread is probably one of the most realistic we've had re the performance and realities of use.
Certainly I never get tired of the warp factor and grip/exit speed experience, especially having a week or so off and driving the porks and diddy hatch about in the meantime, and that leaves me struggling to replace the GTR. Replace it, nah? get other different car(s) alongside it to enjoy different behaviour is the way to go, if space and cash are available.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

OldBob said:


> Replace it, nah? get other different car(s) alongside it to enjoy different behavior is the way to go, if space and cash are available.


Exactly - hence me considering the Caterham CSR


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## Jibber_monkey (Oct 1, 2012)

OldBob said:


> ...and that leaves me struggling to replace the GTR. Replace it, nah? get other different car(s) alongside it to enjoy different behaviour is the way to go, if space and cash are available.


Cracking philosophy! I have to say there are far too many informed opinions on this topic for a car forum. Surely the moderators should do something about this?!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I wonder if the Porsche forum members are looking in on this thread waiting to pounce in defence of their marque, only to see some level headed cogent arguments, and walk away disappointed.


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## NlSSAN GTR (Jul 25, 2013)

As much as i love the new Cayman & Boxster, i cannot help but feel it would be a step down coming from a GTR!

Yes they are fantastic cars, refined perfection and quality with a lovely flat 6 tone to go with it. But its BORING compared to the GTR and my personal opinion is in 1 year once the hype of the new Cayman and Boxster is over it will blend in to the rest. After owning 4 Boxsters in the past, one im currently part exchanging for a GTR its just not in the same league. :runaway:


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

I normally change my cars every few years, this time I hit a wall trying to work out where to go from a GTR. In the end I kept it and purchased an Atom, for me this is now the chalk and cheese of motoring


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

That's a great combo you have there mate :thumbsup: the atom is awesome and I bet it's brilliant fun in this weather


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

ChuckUK said:


> I normally change my cars every few years, this time I hit a wall trying to work out where to go from a GTR. In the end I kept it and purchased an Atom, for me this is now the chalk and cheese of motoring


Same here, I ended up getting a MY12 from MY10 (first time I ever replaced a car with the exact same model). The GTR is not replaceable at present because there isn't another car in the market place, that I can think of at least, that meets all the criteria the GTR ticks off.

As a Porsche fan the Turbo S would be the obvious alternative but it doesn't do GT cruiser as well with it's nodding light front end, lower seating position and suspension. There's also little or no payback coming from the performance department to compensate. Interior materials may not be as good but I find the GTR also delivers a very positive reaction from other road users compared to other cars which adds to this weird sensation that somehow the GTR isn't a selfish car. It spreads it's enjoyment to all around!

Anyway back to the point... Ideally if you need some attributes the GTR doesn't possess then the only way to add without in some way subtracting is to get an additional car


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

OldBob said:


> Replace it, nah? get other different car(s) alongside it to enjoy different behaviour is the way to go, if space and cash are available.





> Exactly - hence me considering the Caterham CSR


I'm reading backwards now...Exactly...


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## Gasman (Mar 24, 2013)

Karls said:


> Test drives are tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks for all the posts; it's made for a cracking thread!



So Karls, how was the drive? You can't start a thread like this then leave us hanging lol


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Gasman said:


> So Karls, how was the drive? You can't start a thread like this then leave us hanging lol


Sorry for the delay in updating this thread but bloody workmen digging roads/pavement up everywhere went and cut through cables meaning no phone/broadband for 24 hours :chairshot

Anyway, rising above workmen that cone off roads, dig a hole and then stand around looking into it for hours on end whilst the traffic queues around them...I must digress 

So, the test drives.
Firstly, and I'm sure I don't need to tell anyone this, Customer Service at Porsche is outstanding - Nissan, you have an awful lot to learn (if only you were interested in learning, which you're clearly not).
Two cars arranged for me in a matter of a day or two, both back to back tests.
First up was the pdk, spec'd quite basic so no pasm etc etc and secondly a manual with a great spec (pasm, sport, sport plus, dynamic gearbox mounts, sport chrono, sports seats - the list goes on).

PDK
Very impressed with the rapid gearchanges, incredibly quick and smooth.
Interior quality - well, it's a Porsche so it felt like it was carved from solid.
Beautiful leather and stitching, just very nice indeed.
Speed - impressed to be honest. More than quick enough for what you want on the road but acceleration, although brisk was obviously not as rapid as I'm used to but that's to be expected.

Manual
I was given the keys for this one and let out on my own, the salesman apologised and explained he had to deliver a car and had to dissapear in an hour; he didn't expect to see me back before he left!

I think the manual was my ideal spec for this car.
I loved the rev matching on downchanges and the note from the engine (standard exhaust) was just fantastic at high revs. You could tell that's where the engine wanted to be.
It did mean that I found myself in second gear an awful lot and after a while it was getting a bit tedious. Would I want to drive like that all the time? No, probably not but I could see myself getting bored of it sooner or later.
Did I enjoy the manual box? No. That was a surprise. I'd take the PDK and I didn't think I'd say that but there again I'm no track demon.
The biggest surprise for me though was the steering. I was really expecting a lot of feedback through the wheel but it just wasn't there.
Also, the steering had a slight delay in it. Only fractional but give the wheel a quick left or right shimmy and you could just make out the delay in the nose following suit.
Contrast that to the GT-R - in my car the nose darts at the slightest twitch of the wheel and driving home after the test, I was getting more feedback through the wheel than in the two Caymans. Very surprised at that. Is it down to the electrically assisted steering?

So, driving the GT-R home was very satisfying. It confirmed that I'm driving one of the best cars out there. It felt sharper, instant throttle response, even though it's turbocharged and just felt tighter.

Oh and the looks you get in the GT-R, even though I'm driving a 4 year old car far outweighed those I got in the Cayman by I'd say, 100%. It just makes you feel you're in a special car, which indeed we are.

So I must bow down to the almighty GT-R and offer my apologies for ever doubting you. :clap:


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

You may have been tempted by a sexy new play thing but isn't it nice to find yourself going home to the hotter model?


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

We moan about Nissan aftersales, the warranty, the tranny noises, the cost of the tyres and brakes, but we all know that the GT-R is the best of the best for value for money and kudos.

I have been tempted to look at the dark side but always return to the GT-R. We should not forget what an incredible car it is and what is does to the competition.


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## enshiu (Aug 20, 2010)

nurburgringgtr said:


> We moan about Nissan aftersales, the warranty, the tranny noises, the cost of the tyres and brakes, but we all know that the GT-R is the best of the best for value for money and kudos.
> 
> I have been tempted to look at the dark side but always return to the GT-R. We should not forget what an incredible car it is and what is does to the competition.


I may tempted to go back to the old R32 skyline with the R35 as track car.

Yes R32 and R35 is are awesome cars and will have a special place in my heart forever.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Good write up. Enjoyed reading :thumbsup:


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## Henry 145 (Jul 15, 2009)

Have had similar thoughts of changing and never find anything that compares to GTR - it truly is one of the best cars out there - longest I have ever owned a car!


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

Henry 145 said:


> - longest I have ever owned a car!


Same


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## Gasman (Mar 24, 2013)

Thanks for sharing Karls. I was looking at a carrera s when deciding what to buy but it was an easy choice for me in the end. Yeah the way the gtr can dart side to side is one of the amazing features of the car and completely defies its weight. It's the reason why I'm struggling to go for MPSS tyres for my next set as I don't want to lose that sharpness since on the run flats you can thread it with laser accuracy. On the downside however, it was raining on the motorway today and the runflats were snaking at 60mph even though they have plenty of tread. 

Out of interest where were the paddles for the PDK mounted? I wish the gtr's paddles were attached to the steering wheel.


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Karls - were both the cars the new shape Cayman ? This would explain the steering numbness which has been well documented. A Cayman R has the old style hydraulic steering , maybe get a test in one of those , but looks not to all tastes.

To sum up the thread , which got a bit wayward in the middle with GT3 and the RS. It just underlies the need to fully evaluate and test drive the proposed new purchase before spending any money as one car will feel different to everyone who gets in it.


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Chris,

Yes, both cars were the new 2013 Cayman S models. I have read a lot in the motoring press about the 'uproar' from Porsche die-hards when Porsche introduced their electrically assisted steering.

Gasman - The pdk model carried the old style steering wheel buttons, not the paddles (apparently it's an option if you want the paddles - who wouldn't?) so I can't answer your question.



Chris956 said:


> Karls - were both the cars the new shape Cayman ? This would explain the steering numbness which has been well documented. A Cayman R has the old style hydraulic steering , maybe get a test in one of those , but looks not to all tastes.
> 
> To sum up the thread , which got a bit wayward in the middle with GT3 and the RS. It just underlies the need to fully evaluate and test drive the proposed new purchase before spending any money as one car will feel different to everyone who gets in it.


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Karls said:


> Gasman - The pdk model carried the old style steering wheel buttons, not the paddles (apparently it's an option if you want the paddles - who wouldn't?) so I can't answer your question.


Yes , the PDK can be had as paddles , the buttons are cack and work both ways i.e. push the front for up a gear and press the rear for down a gear ( or otherway round ) and its a mess. The sport upgrade steering wheel reverts to standard paddles which iirc are attached to the wheel not the column.


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## Jibber_monkey (Oct 1, 2012)

Inspired by this tale of existential doubt, I took the opportunity to test drive a BMW 1M Coupe M series 1 two door Msport Thing this weekend. Full report tomorrow once I've had some sleep


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

Op thanks for the write up, really enjoyed reading that 

Jibber, no sleep mate get typing, I've always liked the look of the 1M.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Chris956 said:


> Yes , the PDK can be had as paddles , the buttons are cack and work both ways i.e. push the front for up a gear and press the rear for down a gear ( or otherway round ) and its a mess. The sport upgrade steering wheel reverts to standard paddles which iirc are attached to the wheel not the column.


Indeed the buttons are rubbish i test drove a few porks with and hated them. We specced the sports wheel with proper paddles on our cay s and they are on and turn with the wheel. I prefer the fixed paddles of the gtr, having driven quite a few variants of both.
I know shifting while turning hard is to be avoided, but when the wheels turned i find it confusing, even when hands are fixed in position on the wheel. Still better than the poxy buttons though.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Karls

Just think, you are going to possibley buy a VW or you can stick with a proper brand - a GTR !!!


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

FLYNN said:


> Same


+2.

Unless I win the lottery I don't think there's another replacement close enough. The imperfections I find are easily overshadowed by the sheer performance.


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## Jibber_monkey (Oct 1, 2012)

Sorry for the delay, been a little hectic of late!

Had a decent spin in a 1M at the weekend and it is frankly hilarious! I do love ridiculously over engined small cars at the best of times and this one being relatively short wheel based and rear wheel drive is an absolute blast. It's surprisingly quick in a straight line, obviously no way near GT-R fast but it still feels way quicker than a Cayman S. The steering is numb as a numb thing. It's much less feelsome than an E46 CSL for example, which was hardly the last word in steering feel. This strangely didn't detract from the driving experience anywhere near as much as I thought it would. The steering was still accurate and plenty quick enough without being nervous. Again, the GT-R's has significantly more steering feel than the 1M. The ride is pretty much on a par with a GT-R running MPSS but with slightly less manic high speed bump and rebound, making it more suited to British B roads. The brakes on the 1M, however, are woeful. Typical BMW Motorsport pap. Barely adequate for the road, let alone track work.

So the GT-R is faster, has better steering and brakes that work. And yet the 1M was equally fantastic in it's own way. It is still massively quick, sounds great for a turbo charged car and feels immediately at home on roads that cause sharp intakes of breath in a GT-R. Where a GT-R will bludgeon a road into submission and go trumpting into the distance, the 1M will be constantly moving about the place, sniffing out grip and randomly leaping sideways under power. It's no way near as effective but it is immensely fun if you like that sort of thing. Which I rather do. A lot.

Now to figure out how to afford a 1M, a GT-R and a season racing an M3. Answers on a postcard and cheques made out to CASH


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## lawsy (Feb 25, 2009)

Jibber_monkey said:


> Sorry for the delay, been a little hectic of late!
> 
> Had a decent spin in a 1M at the weekend and it is frankly hilarious! I do love ridiculously over engined small cars at the best of times and this one being relatively short wheel based and rear wheel drive is an absolute blast. It's surprisingly quick in a straight line, obviously no way near GT-R fast but it still feels way quicker than a Cayman S. The steering is numb as a numb thing. It's much less feelsome than an E46 CSL for example, which was hardly the last word in steering feel. This strangely didn't detract from the driving experience anywhere near as much as I thought it would. The steering was still accurate and plenty quick enough without being nervous. Again, the GT-R's has significantly more steering feel than the 1M. The ride is pretty much on a par with a GT-R running MPSS but with slightly less manic high speed bump and rebound, making it more suited to British B roads. The brakes on the 1M, however, are woeful. Typical BMW Motorsport pap. Barely adequate for the road, let alone track work.
> 
> ...


Buy some knee pads and offer services to men. 

Im thinking of doing it........again:squintdan


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Thanks for the review Jibber_monkey.
I've always liked the 1M but when I read your review and it mentioned numb steering, that put me off it instantly.

For me one of the great features of the GT-R is it's steering feel and response - so sharp. It reminds me of how my Ducati 748 felt on the steering and that can only be a good thing! The GT-R is my Ducati in disguise!


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## Gasman (Mar 24, 2013)

lawsy said:


> Buy some knee pads and offer services to men.
> 
> Im thinking of doing it........again:squintdan


Lol


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

lawsy said:


> Buy some knee pads and offer services to men.
> 
> Im thinking of doing it........again:squintdan


Lmfao at that ; )

Nice write up mate. The M1is a great car.


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## Jibber_monkey (Oct 1, 2012)

lawsy said:


> Buy some knee pads and offer services to men.
> 
> Im thinking of doing it........again:squintdan


I'd have to tie a lot of shoelaces to pay for a 1M!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Karls said:


> Thanks for the review Jibber_monkey.
> I've always liked the 1M but when I read your review and it mentioned numb steering, that put me off it instantly.
> 
> For me one of the great features of the GT-R is it's steering feel and response - so sharp. It reminds me of how my Ducati 748 felt on the steering and that can only be a good thing! The GT-R is my Ducati in disguise!


Didn't realise you were a biker.

Keep the gtr, don't mod it, and buy an s1000rr hp4.


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Test drove the 1M and hated it. Didnt even finish the test drive route. I did however drive to the test drive in my GT3 so got straight out of that and hopped into the 1M. Numb does not even cover it. Expected far better given all the hype it gets. Salesman couldn't grasp the concept " I dont like it mate " !!!!
October's EVO mag has just dropped through the door and they have some new GT3 Vs GTR stuff.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Chris956 said:


> October's EVO mag has just dropped through the door and they have some new GT3 Vs GTR stuff.


Oooh, exciting read for the weekend!


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> Didn't realise you were a biker.
> 
> Keep the gtr, don't mod it, and buy an s1000rr hp4.


Ex-biker thanks to a Vauxhall Cavalier 11 yrs ago and very nearly an ex-me!

The GT-R is a keeper. Don't mod it? Too late for that, far too late. I can't ride a bike any more so the GT-R IS my bike!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

How funny!

I'd love a bike. Looking at that BMW, and bearing in mind how "relatively" cheap it is makes it all the more painful. Sub 10 second quarters out of the box - it's just an awesome giant killer for peanuts.

But, I have a wife and children and I'd like to live a long life and spend as much time as I can with them and so a bike is off the cards for me.

When I justified the GTR to my wife, I said the exact same thing, the GTR IS my motorbike.


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## Neanderthal (Apr 5, 2013)

We all see to have the same 'discussions' with our wife...
The only way she agreed to the GTR was that I said, "I either keep the BMW and get a bike or I get a GTR, it's up to you..."


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