# My Car was a ringer



## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Bought my Dream car in November 2005. Sold a stupidly quick and well built GtiR to get the GTR.
Anyway to cut a very long story short i had it inspected today by the police and it was indeed a stolen car. They said its one of the best jobs they have ever seen. It was impounded there and then and i had to wait 3 hours for someone to pick me up...
So now i am car less and have a whopping loan to pay.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

sorry to sound like kicking you while you are down, did you not HPi it, or have it inspected before you bought it?

if so, you might have some come back against those companies.

mook


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## gfunk (Jan 15, 2003)

that is some bad news sorry to here that  ,i had the same thing happen to me about 9 years ago and i was allowed to by the car back and it was registered on a diffrent/original plate not sure if the laws have changed or not but their may be some hope


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## JamieSwift (Dec 20, 2005)

That's a very bad news story mate. Have you any recourse with the seller either private or trade ? If the bloke who sold it to you has'nt done a runner could'nt you see a brief to put pressure on him to get your money back? Makes your blood boil!!!


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

tbh i wouldnt want it back, not after them cutting it to pieces.
I didnt think i could do a HPI on an import.? i just saw the chassis number matched up. The police did say no one who hasnt been trained could spot the job done..


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## DODGY (Oct 28, 2001)

Can't u get the money back from the garage u bought if from. Cam u better check ur's if u got it from the same garage.

Graham


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## DODGY (Oct 28, 2001)

How come u had it checked anyway?

Graham


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

when the log book come through, it had UK owners on it, so i sent it all back to dvla. In the end i rang the owners on the V5 form and traced the current owner and we both had same chassis number.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Thats a real shame dude. I feel real sorry for you.

Where did you buy it from? I think its in everybodys interest.


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## slippyr4 (May 2, 2002)

Check your loan agreement documentation very carefully, and perhaps consult a solictor. It depends on the form of the contract, but, under the consumer credit act, the loan provider have some liability over the product that the loan is for. This might not apply in your case, it's complex law. but look into it.


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## GTRNICK (Apr 29, 2005)

That is F*cked up I'm sorry to hear this!!!!
I'd goto the seller if I was you and tell him you shall report him to the police for selling you a ringer.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

The seller might not know - it's possible. Horrible situation though.
T


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## GTRNICK (Apr 29, 2005)

tonigmr2 said:


> The seller might not know - it's possible. Horrible situation though.
> T



That's his problem, dont You think!?


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Need to know what garage sold this car.

I have my suspicions.

If they sold the car as direct from japan they mustve known


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## Kochi (Jul 25, 2003)

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=45680 post #13


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Sorry to hear about this


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

I'm gobsmacked mate, i thought you had been in touch with the garage who you bought it from and they had proof of them importing it?? you need to go see them asap and with the police if you havnt already.

I know when we had a chat we always had a sneaky suspision there was something not right but i'm sorry it turned out to be true bud, there must be a way to get some money back.

You have my number matey give me a bell if you want to chat

Mike


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

This was kirbz old car wasn't it?

This car seem to have had a very bizarre history. From looking at this post, if that is indeed your car (after everything had been changed on it) then I know of someone on the Civic Type-R forums who also previously owned it (chap called Corrie I think). He didn't keep it long either.

Wasn't it bought from GT Culture originally?


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Thats the other car, the straight one.
cheers Kirbz


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

Durzel said:


> This was kirbz old car wasn't it?
> 
> This car seem to have had a very bizarre history. From looking at this post, if that is indeed your car (after everything had been changed on it) then I know of someone on the Civic Type-R forums who also previously owned it (chap called Corrie I think). He didn't keep it long either.
> 
> Wasn't it bought from GT Culture originally?


yeh i owned the one in the picture and it was owned by corrie who bought it from gtc who imported it but even though they had the same reg details there 2 different cars!! i sold it onto a guy near chester who still has the car so we presumed it was a **** up by the dvla but obviously not.

such a shame but goes to show you cant be too careful even with newly imported cars

Mike


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

chrisniss91 said:


> Thats the other car, the straight one.
> cheers Kirbz


no prbs mate if i can help let me know


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

kirbz said:


> yeh i owned the one in the picture and it was owned by corrie who bought it from gtc who imported it but even though they had the same reg details there 2 different cars!! i sold it onto a guy near chester who still has the car so we presumed it was a **** up by the dvla but obviously not.
> 
> such a shame but goes to show you cant be too careful even with newly imported cars
> 
> Mike


You and Corrie owned which car? The vinyl'd up one that GT Culture sold? The pictures Chris posted are of a completely different car (wheels, no graphics, etc). Which car did you sell Chris?


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

Durzel said:


> You and Corrie owned which car? The vinyl'd up one that GT Culture sold? The pictures Chris posted are of a completely different car (wheels, no graphics, etc). Which car did you sell Chris?


The veilside kitted one, corrie imported it pretty much standard and had it retrimmed, kitted, 19"volks, ap brakes etc etc so i thought i was odd when chris said he had my old car as it was not feasable to remove all that stuff?


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## GTRNICK (Apr 29, 2005)

kirbz said:


> I'm gobsmacked mate, i thought you had been in touch with the garage who you bought it from and they had proof of them importing it?? you need to go see them asap and with the police if you havnt already.
> 
> I know when we had a chat we always had a sneaky suspision there was something not right but i'm sorry it turned out to be true bud, there must be a way to get some money back.
> 
> ...


Some good advice.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

wow! gutted for you dude

you shouldnt have said anything and broken it up for spares atleast that way you wouldnt be too out of pocket.

What was it a half cut and shut job?


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Maybe if you can get in touch with the garage that sold you the car

They will have the HPi report that "EVERY" garage will do on any car brought in for sale

Thus their account with Equifax(Hpi) will normally cover them for upto £10,000

So no one will lose out, rather than attacking the garage owner first try this?

Sorry to hear about this...good luck


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

GTR-Zilla said:


> you shouldnt have said anything and broken it up for spares atleast that way you wouldnt be too out of pocket.


That's a terrible thing to say. Whilst I have huge sympathy for Chris, you're basically advocating depriving some other poor soul of their rightful possession. How would you feel if it was your car that had been stolen and someone else on another forum was telling the new "owner" to break it up for spares? 

kirbz: I thought Corrie bought it in that state, I remember seeing the car for sale on GT Culture _before_ he bought it - and it had the 19" Volks, retrim, etc then. I don't think he did anything to the car - he went straight from his CTR Turbo to that, and then to a 350Z (I think).


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

Durzel said:


> That's a terrible thing to say. Whilst I have huge sympathy for Chris, you're basically advocating depriving some other poor soul of their rightful possession. How would you feel if it was your car that had been stolen and someone else on another forum was telling the new "owner" to break it up for spares?
> 
> kirbz: I thought Corrie bought it in that state, I remember seeing the car for sale on GT Culture _before_ he bought it - and it had the 19" Volks, retrim, etc then. I don't think he did anything to the car - he went straight from his CTR Turbo to that, and then to a 350Z (I think).


??? not sure then bud he told me at trax the stuff he had done to it?? i know it was on GTC's site for sale on his behalf so maybe from there.

dont suppose it really matters  

Was also thinking and it must have been "ringed" in this country so if its been sold as a new import then the garage MUST be responsible and give the guy his money back??


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

I did not mean that in the way it sounded. Chris probably has lost best part of 14k (dunno what he paid for it) and have huge sympathy for him. 

But speaking from personal experience, when I got pulled over for a routine check my traffic police by 98 200SX was impounded right away (and was told the car was a clone with no further access to it. I went through various ways to stop me from loosing my money on the car, the trader had gone bust so for me there was no avenue left to fight.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

out of interest Chris, have you spoken to the garage you bought it from? Whats thier views?

mook


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

...and has cameron spoken to them as well????
Something stinks here and it would be good to know who is at fault.
Did the garage know or were they done as well?


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

davewilkins said:


> ...and has cameron spoken to them as well????
> Something stinks here and it would be good to know who is at fault.
> Did the garage know or were they done as well?


i would have thought regardless if the garage knew or have been done themselves they must be responsible and must refund the guys money??


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## driverst24 (Jul 13, 2005)

I feel really sorry for you ....

A skyline is a car most owners will put a small fortune into, buying in the first place and then modifying and anything that can be done to raise awareness of dodgy garages or people should be aired...

I hope you manage to get it sorted when you have been in contact with the garage.


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## shadowninja (Sep 29, 2002)

damn! and that's a nice example, too!


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

Assuming it was Watling Garage you bought it from (See post before), you have every right to demand a full refund, as they must guarantee to sell you a car with fair title.

A car bought from Japanese auctions also has it's documents verified and it is next to impossible to forge a Japanese deregistration, as it's holographic.

It's unlikely it's a fresh import - as newly imported cars also have their deregistration documents checked by the Japanese authorities during shipment to verify they're genuine and the details are checked again by Interpol when being registered by the DVLA in the UK. 

Most likely, your car's been ringed in the UK, from another Stolen Skyline, perhaps.

Once again - go back to the garage, demand a full refund. Get Trading Standards into it if he doesn't pay you 100% promptly upon demand. Police should have informed you of this too.


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## Supra RZ (Feb 6, 2003)

I seem to remember a thread about a purple 33GTR being stolen from a petrol station forecourt, within the last few months, anybody know where to find it, it may have some relevance to this car!!


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## pdrobbo (Mar 18, 2004)

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=45446&highlight=stolen

is this the one you mean ? 
i was thinking the same thing ... don't know if the dates match up though


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## JamieSwift (Dec 20, 2005)

Come on Chris, there has been lots of advice on the next avenue to take, please respond to your thread and the guys on the forum who are genuinely interested in your predicament if you are interested in trying to recoup your cash or by legal means, reply please!!!!


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## Supra RZ (Feb 6, 2003)

pdrobbo said:


> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=45446&highlight=stolen
> 
> is this the one you mean ?
> i was thinking the same thing ... don't know if the dates match up though



Yeah thats the one!!


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Theft like this makes me feel sick.
Sorry to hear this.

Steve


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## John Mc (Jan 27, 2005)

JamieSwift said:


> Come on Chris, there has been lots of advice on the next avenue to take, please respond to your thread and the guys on the forum who are genuinely interested in your predicament if you are interested in trying to recoup your cash or by legal means, reply please!!!!


He's probably in work mate he works nights! Give him a chance to respond


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Have only just seen this post. Sorry to hear this Chris.

Just so no one gets the wrong end of the stick.

We did import the genuine 'straight' GTR in 2002. Sold to Corie, then i believe went to Pod, then Kirbs, then someone in Ile of mann... I have literately seen the car passed on as the owners all appeared on this forum.

As Miguel says, there are at least 4 safely check points when buying from Japan. Documents, car, vin are checked at auction... anything not perfect the car gets cancelled from sale. Then checked when being de-registered. Checked again by interpol / customs when entering the UK. Then DVLA checks back at the previous stages as well as with sva and mot docs are correct. DVLA are on the ball.


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

John Mc said:


> He's probably in work mate he works nights! Give him a chance to respond


I have just spoken to Chris as I was very concerned having bought my 34 from the same trader. He is at work and I am sure will update those who also have concerns when he is next online [tomorrow hopefully]. We both genuinely believe that Ray isn't involved with the cloning of his 33. 
I don't think it is for me to post any other details other than that.
I feel so much sympathy for Chris and wish him every success in resolving what is every owners worst nightmare.

Cam


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Really sorry to read about your plight. I hope it can be sorted and I agree with all the advice given here about going to a solicitor, getting advice from them and talking to the dealer.

I hope it gets sorted for you


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

COSSYCam said:


> I have just spoken to Chris as I was very concerned having bought my 34 from the same trader. He is at work and I am sure will update those who also have concerns when he is next online [tomorrow hopefully]. We both genuinely believe that Ray isn't involved with the cloning of his 33.
> I don't think it is for me to post any other details other than that.
> I feel so much sympathy for Chris and wish him every success in resolving what is every owners worst nightmare.
> 
> Cam


I hope the garage does refund chris his money as its clearly not his fault, notsaying its the garages fault but surlely they are responsible for selling chris a 100% genuine car and if not then money back i'm affraid??


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## Ajax (Jun 16, 2005)

"nicenewcar" had theirs stolen on Monday 14th November.
You bought yours on 22nd of November or thereabouts, correct?
Are there any features of your car that are the same as the nicked one?
like carrozaria rear speakers? easily changed over i know.
It maybe just a coincidence but it does seem strange and it was obviously nicked in the UK.
Whatever but i hope the outcome is a good one for you m8, gutted for ya.


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## MartinC (Jan 1, 2006)

Bad news chris, as I have seen this car and I know you have spent some hard earned cash on the stage 1 as well. My fingerprints are on the o/s headlamp by the way, as I fitted the bulb for you. 
Totaly gutted for you mate.

Where did the garage in question get the car from? surely that is where people need to start looking at to find the guilty party here.


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## GrahamM (Oct 27, 2003)

Ajax said:


> "nicenewcar" had theirs stolen on Monday 14th November.
> You bought yours on 22nd of November or thereabouts, correct?
> Are there any features of your car that are the same as the nicked one?
> like carrozaria rear speakers? easily changed over i know.
> ...


http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=45285


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

looks the same with blacked out rear windows.. as per the lady that got hijacked in the pump


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

JamieSwift said:


> Come on Chris, there has been lots of advice on the next avenue to take, please respond to your thread and the guys on the forum who are genuinely interested in your predicament if you are interested in trying to recoup your cash or by legal means, reply please!!!!


Sorry got home from being stranded and had virtually go straight to work doing a 14hour shift only got home now. 

I contacted the dealer last night, he cannot believe what has happened and i 100% trust him and feel he has been done as well..
I have to get my money back either by the dealer just handing it back or through legal means. I'll hopefully find out more today after i have a bit of a sleep.
Not really sure where to start with this or what to do first as it wasnt planned.

cheers for all support


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

I bought the car on the 7th November, it was in rays showroom early october so it cant be the other car.

I have all the shipping documents, the boat it came in on, Ray has also given me all vat and duty etc paid receipts to prove it came over from Japan.
Could the cloning of been done in dubai ? I remeber a programme were a guy in a R33 GTR was pulled by the police and his car was impounded there and then. Found out it was stolen, sent to dubai then back to japan then sold to UK.

Sorry if i'm not being very imformative, i havent had any time to sit down and talk to anyone yet so over the next few days i'll find out more and post up.


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## [email protected] (Dec 21, 2004)

If they find the original owner and they've been re-imbursed by their insurance company as it was stolen - would they not give him the car back instead of just crushing it?


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## stu0x (Jun 30, 2002)

chrisniss91 said:


> I have all the shipping documents, the boat it came in on, Ray has also given me all vat and duty etc paid receipts to prove it came over from Japan.
> Could the cloning of been done in dubai ? I remeber a programme were a guy in a R33 GTR was pulled by the police and his car was impounded there and then. Found out it was stolen, sent to dubai then back to japan then sold to UK.


It's very possible. However it's just as likely that it was stolen over here, and that the shipping documents etc either relate to the 'clean' car (ie the one owned by kirbz et al), or that they're forgeries.

Certainly at the moment the trail ends with the garage you bought it from, and they'll have some explaining to do to the Police. Have they claimed that they imported it themselves? Or that they bought it off another agent who claimed to have just imported it?

You probably do have a right to a refund on the vehicle, however this is a civil right and (depending on how cooperative the garage want to be) may involve a long and drawn out civil action, which will only commence after criminal proceedings are resolved. Depending on the garage's response, you may find that the Police apply for an interim order to freeze their trading and seize their entire stock for evidence.

*Hopefully* the people you bought it off end up being an innocent party in all this, because that will probably be the quickest and easiest resolution for you.


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## mike101 (Feb 10, 2006)

Just joined the forum, hoping to get a GTR from Japan later this year, this is scary stuff!

One thing I noticed from reading this thread, is someone said they shared the same VRM(registration mark). Surely the DVLA wouldn't assign the same one twice?

Sorry to hear about your misfortune btw Chris.

Mike.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> If they find the original owner and they've been re-imbursed by their insurance company as it was stolen - would they not give him the car back instead of just crushing it?


If the insurance company has paid out on it, then they will own the car.

If it were me, I'd be chasing the trader you bought it from (this Watlington Motors place). Irrespective of whether they are "nice guys" or whatever they ultimately sold you a stolen car - and in so doing failed to provide a basic duty of care. 

I'm not exactly sure how these things work but presumably you need to get a crime number from the Police, and then start chasing it up with the garage. If they sound like they aren't going to refund you in full then you need to start legal proceedings straight away. They surely have insurance which covers this sort of thing anyway.

The curious thing about this whole situation is that you originally stated that the car was imported from Japan to the UK, then exported *back* to Japan and then *back* to the UK again. I can't imagine any genuine scenario in which a Skyline would go back to Japan given the price differential (i.e. they're a lot cheaper over there) unless the owner was taking it with them.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

chrisniss91 said:


> I bought the car on the 7th November, it was in rays showroom early october so it cant be the other car.
> 
> I have all the shipping documents, the boat it came in on, Ray has also given me all vat and duty etc paid receipts to prove it came over from Japan.
> Could the cloning of been done in dubai ? I remeber a programme were a guy in a R33 GTR was pulled by the police and his car was impounded there and then. Found out it was stolen, sent to dubai then back to japan then sold to UK.
> ...


In dubai they seem to order cars from japan ...stolen to order

car being sent to dubai after they have been stolen from japan is very common, they get sent there in 3 or 4 peices, ie car is cut into qtr's and joined up again.. 

I got this info from a very reliable source, belive me it does go on..


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## brooksie (Sep 24, 2003)

this is terrible news ......... as Durzel says i think the key is why it was imported, then exported then imported again. 

I hope you get it sorted m8 

S


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

Durzel said:


> The curious thing about this whole situation is that you originally stated that the car was imported from Japan to the UK, then exported *back* to Japan and then *back* to the UK again. I can't imagine any genuine scenario in which a Skyline would go back to Japan given the price differential (i.e. they're a lot cheaper over there) unless the owner was taking it with them.


Not only that, but that car would NOT have been allowed off the boat in Japan without the original de-reg doc. It's my understanding that the Japanese are very strict on this requirement...unless it went thru the shady side...even then, without the original de-reg doc the car would have never been able to be JCI'd and driven on the road in Japan...very interesting... 

Of course, the fact that the price of the cars nearly doubles to get them to the UK, financially sending it back is a no win situation.


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

mike101 said:


> Just joined the forum, hoping to get a GTR from Japan later this year, this is scary stuff!
> 
> One thing I noticed from reading this thread, is someone said they shared the same VRM(registration mark). Surely the DVLA wouldn't assign the same one twice?
> 
> ...


No they didn't share the same VRM just the same chassis number. The legit car originally supplied by GTC was on a private plate.


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

COSSYCam said:


> No they didn't share the same VRM just the same chassis number. The legit car originally supplied by GTC was on a private plate.


They did have the same VRM thats how Chris contacted me!! it was originally on a private plate then went onto a M plate then went to the IOM so went onto another plate but still retains its original plate according to the DVLA but i sold it on before i transfered it back to the M plate and i assume its now on it or the new owner couldnt have taxed it.

So from the evidence it HAS to have been done in the UK for someone to not just get my old reg plate but to also get the VIN number??? thats where i get confused?? how did they get hold of my VIN number?? some dodgy person at the DVLA??

Scary stuff!!


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

kirbz said:


> They did have the same VRM thats how Chris contacted me!! it was originally on a private plate then went onto a M plate then went to the IOM so went onto another plate but still retains its original plate according to the DVLA but i sold it on before i transfered it back to the M plate and i assume its now on it or the new owner couldnt have taxed it.
> 
> So from the evidence it HAS to have been done in the UK for someone to not just get my old reg plate but to also get the VIN number??? thats where i get confused?? how did they get hold of my VIN number?? some dodgy person at the DVLA??
> 
> Scary stuff!!


Sorry Mike...I stand corrected. 
I spoke to Chris last night and misunderstood how the clone was registered.
You can get chassis [vin] numbers from the reg number via a free RAC online check or from an HPI report but to get the full history inc plate changes takes a full Gold or Platinum HPI check.
I am certain that Ray from Watling Garage is not involved with the cloning and is also a victim of deception but it would be in his best interests to refund Chris without it going to litigation.


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## Milko (Jun 16, 2004)

As above, even if the garage owner isnt at fault, your only concern should be getting your money back from him, let him worry about where along the line the car was cloned, even if he's a nice guy, look after number 1.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

im sure the garage owner is not about to give up 14k just like that.. and with out a fight.. but surely he would be covered by business insurance?


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Milko said:


> As above, even if the garage owner isnt at fault, your only concern should be getting your money back from him, let him worry about where along the line the car was cloned, even if he's a nice guy, look after number 1.


I have just spoken to Ray and he intends to register on here to explain the situation shortly. Until he gets the actual chassis number that does belong to the car he can't process a full refund to Chris and he is waiting on that info from the Police. Ray said he spoke to the Japanese exporter/agent and they need the original vehicle chassis number before they will refund ALL Chris' money. 
May I just state that I am in no way connected to Ray in any capacity other than as a very satisfied customer and I would have no hesitation in buying another vehicle from him.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Spoken to the police who done the inspection. looks like my car was stolen in the Uk in 2002!!!! Thying that annoys me the lady at dvla has blammed me for being starnded saying ''well if you didnt report this problem in the 1st place i wouldnt of been stranded'' basically saying i shouldnt of bothered investigating it. WTF. The Police also said he would of arrested me for being in charge of stolen goods. IF it werent for me being honest they would of never found this problem.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Cameron: I agree and i have NEVER had any doubt about ray not once.Top bloke in my view i was just unlucky with this car at the time.


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

chrisniss91 said:


> Cameron: I agree and i have NEVER had any doubt about ray not once.Top bloke in my view i was just unlucky with this car at the time.


Have you got the number that the Police uncovered? Is it on the receipt they gave you?


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

COSSYCam said:


> Have you got the number that the Police uncovered? Is it on the receipt they gave you?


They are 2 digits away from finding the vehicle, true chassis number. They are at the moment assuming the car was nicked in 2002, I'll properly findout tommorow or Monday now 

They didnt give me any receipt for taking the car at all which worried me.


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## John Mc (Jan 27, 2005)

Good luck with resolving this crappy situation Chris. Hopefully you can get a full refund and buy another dream car.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Cheers john, not sure what to do, i want a R34 but been put of skylines now .


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Milko said:


> As above, even if the garage owner isnt at fault, your only concern should be getting your money back from him, let him worry about where along the line the car was cloned, even if he's a nice guy, look after number 1.


Yeah, my thoughts exactly.

First and only port of call should be the garage. What the Police do with the car, or how Watlington recover their funds (through insurance or whatever) is not your problem or concern.

You don't have a contract with anyone besides the garage so they're your only way of getting anything back.


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

Fair enough if the garage are prepared to refund his full money then hats off to them as claiming the money will no doubt be a long process, i still dont understand how if they imported the car how it ended up being a car stolen from the UK, perhaps we will never know or maybe a dodgy guy at the docks or something??

Glad your getting there Chris and looks like some light at the end of the tunnel 

Mike


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

chrisniss91 said:


> Cheers john, not sure what to do, i want a R34 but been put of skylines now .



hey, don't let this experiance put you off.

Do the right checks next time and you'll be fine. as your previous threads have all said, its your Dream car, don't let this spoil that dream.

mook


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> hey, don't let this experiance put you off.
> 
> Do the right checks next time and you'll be fine. as your previous threads have all said, its your Dream car, don't let this spoil that dream.
> 
> mook


Yes you have been desperately unfortunate but dont let it spoil your future GTR plans.

Cam


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## mike101 (Feb 10, 2006)

I still don't understand how the car was given the same VRM as another car already in the UK by the DVLA? Seems they might have made a serious mistake as well.


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

mike101 said:


> I still don't understand how the car was given the same VRM as another car already in the UK by the DVLA? Seems they might have made a serious mistake as well.


Thats the whole point of cloning a car, if you do the checks it all looks legit, but with some funny details about previous owners, current owner, place of residence etc. 
Both cars share same chassis number (one forged), same VRM, and usually same exterior colour, model, year, etc which makes it difficult to distinguish the fake one. As far as the DVLA are concerned there is only one car out there, (with lots of owners being registered on it).

The only good thing about owning such a clone is you never get Gatso fines although I guess on some occasions the clone car might become the latest details registered at the DVLA. 

The only way the DVLA can pick it up, is when request for Road Fund license happens more times than is normal, but whether that raises a red flag is questionable.

I guess Jap cars are more susceptible to this, because Euro cars now have at least 3 VIN number postions. Although replicating the fire wall number must take some doing.


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## DonnyGTR (Jan 5, 2006)

im the current owner of the genuine gtc imported one owned by corrie and kirbz and im concerened how they have got the chassis number off my car to clone it. my car is on my own private plate so theres no worries about gatso fines etc, but this is a bad situation for chris i feel for him and hope he can get his money back soon


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

DonnyGTR said:


> im concerened how they have got the chassis number off my car to clone it.


http://www.rac.co.uk/web/carbuying/vehicle_status_checks

If anyone pays for an HPI check they get the chassis and engine number.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

you dont even need to bother with that.. most car factors have a dvla link that you simply enter a reg no. and it gives chassis no, eng no, make model colour etc..


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## mike101 (Feb 10, 2006)

NISFAN said:


> Thats the whole point of cloning a car, if you do the checks it all looks legit, but with some funny details about previous owners, current owner, place of residence etc.
> Both cars share same chassis number (one forged), same VRM, and usually same exterior colour, model, year, etc which makes it difficult to distinguish the fake one. As far as the DVLA are concerned there is only one car out there, (with lots of owners being registered on it).
> 
> The only good thing about owning such a clone is you never get Gatso fines although I guess on some occasions the clone car might become the latest details registered at the DVLA.
> ...


But surely it was newly registered by the DVLA when it came in from Japan, how could it be given the exact same VRM if a car already in the UK had the exact same chassis number?


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## SXy Si (Jul 22, 2002)

Chris were you getting it serviced at Hiteq the other Saturday??

all the best getting a full refund anyway

Si


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

yes and a front pipe cost £295, i knew about this but never thought they'd just take it away. Otherwise i'd never of taken it up there.


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## purpleskyline (May 27, 2005)

real sorry to here this, hope you get your money back, just dont let it stop you from buying another gtr
hope all end well for you.


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## fazedesign (Feb 11, 2006)

Just registered on the site and I'm really gutted to hear about your problems. It's really painful to see enthusiasts get burned like this - hope you sort things out and get yourself another Skyline soon!


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

As I said before, as soon as you suspected something wrong you should have got advice first instead of going to the police... if the garage does not cought up you out of about 14k..


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## SXy Si (Jul 22, 2002)

SXy Si said:


> Chris were you getting it serviced at Hiteq the other Saturday??
> 
> all the best getting a full refund anyway
> 
> Si


not having much luck at the moment are ya?, lovely lookin car too

again, all the best getting it sorted
Si


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## skydi (Mar 8, 2006)

After reading all this and reading all the links I am so upset for you. Have you got your money back yet from the garage? 

It puts me of getting a GTR (I have a GTS-T at present) 

What a nightmare, I still cannot understand how it is possible for the DVLA to give TWO cars the same VRM ?????

Surely it would flash up something on their system?

Maybe there is more than one person responsible. But ultimately like everyone says it is the garage who should refund your money.

I am so sorry mate. But DON'T let it put you off your dream.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

A little update, Its been four months and still no sign of any money


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## Mark B (Jul 28, 2004)

Ouch 

Im buying a car that was imported and registered a few months ago - what paperwork is essential apart from the V5?

MB


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Another update, the garage is now ignoring me and not replying to emails. nice bloke


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## Nick MW (Aug 15, 2003)

I am really sorry to read that Chris  I hope that it all gets sorted. Have you tried calling or asking someone local to the garage to speak to them for you?? 

Surely there is a legal recourse you can take?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

have you notified trading standards and the DVLA?


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

I haven't re-read the whole of this thread but, it might be worth you talking to Stu0x and Dewie on the skylineowners.com forum, the first is a policeman and the second is a lawyer. They may be able to help you with some movement. To be honest if the garage is now ignoring your emails and phonecalls I would take this to the next level and get heavy with solicotors or a sledgehammer to their current stock :chairshot .... what sorry did I type that whoops?!? Couldn't have meant it  

Good luck with it all.


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

chrisniss91 said:


> Another update, the garage is now ignoring me and not replying to emails. nice bloke


I'm really sorry to hear this Chris. When I spoke to Ray months ago he took the details for the GTR Reg and said he intended to register and post on the matter but he never did. Is he refusing to speak to you or plain ignoring you?
He gave me the impression back then that the matter would be sorted to your satisfaction within a couple of weeks once some paperwork was sorted.
My opinion of Ray has dropped completely.


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## Careanla (Jul 16, 2006)

Jeeze... what a bugga!

Feel for you!

I'd go and see this Ray with some 'nice' mates and get this sorted ASAP 4 months is a long time to be without your pride and joy!


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Careanla said:


> I'd go and see this Ray with some 'nice' mates and get this sorted ASAP


:GrowUp:


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

I paid £352 to speak to a solicitor, the solicitor sent ray a letter and gave him a date asking for his proposals for payment. The date has come and gone and i've heard nothing. 
I rang ray myself yesterday morning, he said i'm with a client i'll call you back never did.

I have notified trading standards, all they said is go to a solicitor.


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## turboshed (May 5, 2006)

Sorry to hear about the car. Only a few nights ago i heard that one of the lorry drivers from work bought a skyline and turned out to be a ringer now hes left with the loan.

Hope things get moving a bit


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

It may of been me i drive for sainsburys lol


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## Careanla (Jul 16, 2006)

Sorry Cossycam, didn't mean my response to be offensive in anyway... just a run off the tongue comment or tongue in cheek as it were.

Chrisniss91, hope things get sorted for you, good luck!


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## Andy_ran (Jun 14, 2005)

Just seen the post. I hope all this gets sorted for you.
I would just instruct a lawyer to recover your money and costs now. If you pay them 1k or so to recover the 14k and costs it shouldn’t cost you much, (it will be a lot less than losing 14k anyway). It seems that after 4 months the garage are just forgetting it happened and trying to wash their hands of it. By ignoring you and not returning your phone calls, and in the eyes of a court, they look at things in fairness. And the garage aren’t being fair. All this goes in your favour, just make a note of the when you call them, and record it, before you talk, let him know you are recording it, so it can be used as evidence if needed.


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## peatough (Oct 6, 2001)

*Ray*

Chris


You need to get legal pressure put on Ray mate.

This sort of customer care is shit and as part of 
this forum we should continue to name and shame this b*****d

Agree with you 100% Cossiecam that your opinion
has gone down with Ray

However the facts are :

This garage is still trading and one customer is out of 14K

If you get nowhere legal what options are left ?


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

chrisniss91 said:


> I paid £352 to speak to a solicitor, the solicitor sent ray a letter and gave him a date asking for his proposals for payment. The date has come and gone and i've heard nothing.
> I rang ray myself yesterday morning, he said i'm with a client i'll call you back never did.
> 
> I have notified trading standards, all they said is go to a solicitor.


£352 for a letter???
Sorry fella its not just the garage taking the pi$$ now  
I have been down this unfortunate route before
It was wages I was owed not a car but the same load of nonsense
Because its over £750 you can go for a Bankruptcy Petition
But before you do that, which will cost around £1500  

I would suggest that you go for a charge on his house
Basically that means the Mortgage company and you will own a part of his property
He will never be able to sell without paying you off first, plus interest of course
But that means you may have to wait a long time for your money
You need to try and find a solicitor that doesn't want to rip you off    
Yes thats right.....be careful on who you choose to represent you, ask around 

It took me 18 months to get my money back  :bawling: 
The idiot just ignored all the letters and court dates
Then when he finally went to his solicitor
His solicitor called him an idiot(or other words to that affect)
I had him bang to rights, so along came a cheque for £1300+
Which was originally to start with only £600 or so

The C.A.B. will be able to help you at the start, but when you get to bankruptcy and charges on property
You will be on your own(solicitor£££££)
I am sorry to say this, it is going to take a long time unless the garage owner decides to do the right thing

As with a previous statement, all be it childish :nervous: 

It may be best to resolve this matter yourself with a few persuasive words, from a paid group of individuals
I know this is not the correct way to resolve this matter
But unfortunately for you, it is a lot of money
How are all his cars doing on his pitch  :squintdan :chairshot
He has a lot more to lose than you
Just a little each week will suffice, dont just massacre them all
He wont want to claim on his insurance as it already costs a bomb

All I can say is good luck with whatever you choose to do, and dont give up :thumbsup:


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## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

sounds asif its a right mess


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## turboshed (May 5, 2006)

Yer would be you then think it was tues night the bloke on the back door was talking tom eabout my car and mentioned about one of the lorry drivers. What a small world it is


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

whoflungdung said:


> As with a previous statement, all be it childish :nervous:
> 
> It may be best to resolve this matter yourself with a few persuasive words, from a paid group of individuals
> I know this is not the correct way to resolve this matter
> ...


The number of times people give advice like the above on the net really shocks me. Resorting to criminal intimidation or criminal damage will do nothing to sort the situation other than risk Chris's position as the completely aggrieved party when the matter goes to court. I really hope the wannabe internet gangsters are just keyboard warriors and don't actually resort to utilising their own advice in the real world. "Making him an offer he can't refuse" is the stuff of movies.
Mini Rant over

If Ray is taking that attitude Chris I wouldn't frustrate yourself trying to contact him directly and put in it the hands of a brief. It will be a long drawn out process sadly but as you are 100% in the right the courts will come down in your favour.


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## GTRNICK (Apr 29, 2005)

COSSYCam said:


> The number of times people give advice like the above on the net really shocks me. Resorting to criminal intimidation or criminal damage will do nothing to sort the situation other than risk Chris's position as the completely aggrieved party when the matter goes to court. I really hope the wannabe internet gangsters are just keyboard warriors and don't actually resort to utilising their own advice in the real world. "Making him an offer he can't refuse" is the stuff of movies.
> Mini Rant over
> 
> If Ray is taking that attitude Chris I wouldn't frustrate yourself trying to contact him directly and put in it the hands of a brief. It will be a long drawn out process sadly but as you are 100% in the right the courts will come down in your favour.




:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway: :runaway:


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

COSSYCam said:


> The number of times people give advice like the above on the net really shocks me. Resorting to criminal intimidation or criminal damage will do nothing to sort the situation other than risk Chris's position as the completely aggrieved party when the matter goes to court. I really hope the wannabe internet gangsters are just keyboard warriors and don't actually resort to utilising their own advice in the real world. "Making him an offer he can't refuse" is the stuff of movies.
> Mini Rant over


Why did you not quote my whole post???
I did refer to the above as a last resort, and it wasn't the best way to go about it
But, if like this guy who owns the garage is working outside of the law
Maybe thats all he will understand?

There are lots of sayings to go along with this (eye for an eye, etc)

We unfortunately live in a real world, were there is good and bad everywhere
Sometimes people do not understand anything other than brute force

My case was similar, except it was originally only £600
So I waited for my money (18 months and 4 court appearances)
I really dont know if I could be so patient if it was £14,000

Chris I hope you get this sorted out, and no one gets hurt

Cossycam...why oh why(lets not mess this poor guys thread up)


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

whoflungdung said:


> Cossycam...why oh why(lets not mess this poor guys thread up)


You're the only one crapping his thread up. Stop with the immature bullshit everywhere on the forum, this thread included. I'm surprised you forgot to post some random Google image in your last two posts like you do in every other damn post on the forum. Grow up or don't bother posting. "Eye for an eye" lmao.. grown ups go through the proper legal channels, that's the only way he has a chance of getting his money back.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

turboshed said:


> Yer would be you then think it was tues night the bloke on the back door was talking tom eabout my car and mentioned about one of the lorry drivers. What a small world it is


Must of been north cheam store 

Ive sent ray in my opinion a very good offer of payment if not i'll go and see him face to face on the weekend and try and resolve it that way.


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Durzel said:


> You're the only one crapping his thread up. Stop with the immature bullshit everywhere on the forum, this thread included. I'm surprised you forgot to post some random Google image in your last two posts like you do in every other damn post on the forum. Grow up or don't bother posting. "Eye for an eye" lmao.. grown ups go through the proper legal channels, that's the only way he has a chance of getting his money back.


I disagree with you...and you are wrong and full of BS :chairshot 

My last several posts on the forum have been informative and helpful to others

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=58506
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=58521
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=58346
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=58296


Yes I like a good laugh and a mess about, but I speak my mind

And if you dont like that then ban me and everyone else who speaks their mind on here

You are wrong Durzel and have gone OTT :sadwavey:


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## Shabs (May 14, 2005)

Just read this post..Extremely sorry to hear about your car. If 'Rays' is being an asshole and being the way he is, chances are that he knew about the status of the car since day one.
Even if he reimburses you, he should be covered by his insurance. Something has to be done..people like this cant get away so easy. I dont understand why the police just take the car away without cutting a deal. They treat the situation as though you stole the car!


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## R34_GT-t (Oct 29, 2001)

Personally, at this stage... I would go around to the garage you bought it from, and ask formally for your money back. He can ignore you both on the phone, and via E-Mail... but he can't in person.

As allready said, don't adopt any kind of violence... as if or when it goes to court, this wouldn't stand you in good sted.

I would get a good solicitor to tell you how much of a case you do have. At the end of the day, he has sold you a car which doesn't meet with trading standards guidelines. You are entitled to your money back, and if he doesn't cooperate it isn't going to work anyway in his favour at court.

Taken from the BBC consumer website:



> Sold a stolen car
> 
> I've been sold a stolen car by a car dealer. What are my options?





> Entitled to full refund
> 
> Under Section 12 of the Sale of Goods, it's a term of every contract for the Sale of Goods, that the seller has the right to sell the goods.
> 
> Consequently, if you've had to return the car to the rightful owner, you're entitled to a full refund of the price you paid (irrespective of how long you've had the car and how far you've driven it). There's no way a seller can avoid the effect of Section 12 Sale of Goods Act.


I hope you get it sorted, and it goes your way. 

-Elliot


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

A little update. I got the car back last weekend. Its on a pace or peace note, which means if the japanese owner wants it back the police can come and take it at any time. I also had to pay £750 storage costs. So its back for now.


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## kirbz (Nov 13, 2003)

chrisniss91 said:


> A little update. I got the car back last weekend. Its on a pace or peace note, which means if the japanese owner wants it back the police can come and take it at any time. I also had to pay £750 storage costs. So its back for now.


i presume the garage has been prosecuted for handling stolen goods??

glad you have the car back and hope it all works out 

Mike


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

They havent been prosecuted. Just a bit peed off that i had to pay £750 to get it back and with a nice dent in the boot.


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

If the japanese owners wants it back, What would be the situation with any mods you make in the meantime ? and does the owner get a certain ammount of time to claim it after which its yours ?


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## Fast Guy (Jan 26, 2003)

So does that mean you can still lose the car? and your money??


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Im not allowed to modify or sell the vehicle until the police get a yes or no from the japanese guy as to whether he wants it back or not. I dont believe there is a time period its his until he say's otherwise. So i have it back but cant really enjoy the car as i could get a knock at the door and it taken away any day.
With regards the money i dont honestly think i'll be seeing that its been so long now he would off paid up by now. I even gave him an option of paying in instalments over 2 years which from my point of view is nice of me. But no


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## sfgtr (May 28, 2005)

do you have a before pic of boot. if so put claim in against storage company. plus "ray" needs to be paying the £750 better than the origional price of the car.


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

I heard of a trader who sold a car not knowing it was stolen, After 1 year the people tried to sell it and found out then (I dont have all the details) but he gave them a full refund after a year..... They still tried to sue him though *shrug*

Go to trading standards...... it wont cost a lot to give them a ring and you never know


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

I've been to trading standards they just told me to go to solicitors which cost way to much. I've already been and the cost to take it too court and to the end would cost me 10k thats what the solicitor estimated. And then said you still cant guarentee him paying out.


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## ILUV ROCKETRON (Aug 3, 2006)

Hey guys its a bit much pointing the finger at this guy Ray where the car was brought from at this point. He may have brought the car in good faith ? after all the police said it was a very good job the scum bags done on the vehicle.
Remember its the garages reputation and Rays business that could be put in jeperdy here. Name and shame if it turns out to be down to them for sure BUT not at this point in the proceedings  :squintdan :squintdan


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

regardless of wether the trader knew or not, he is liable, its HIS job to check these things, it will only cost 10k if he denies your claim, but you've got a reciept and proof he sold it to you!!

you can't just give up on this!!

mook


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

ILUV ROCKETRON said:


> Hey guys its a bit much pointing the finger at this guy Ray where the car was brought from at this point. He may have brought the car in good faith ? after all the police said it was a very good job the scum bags done on the vehicle.
> Remember its the garages reputation and Rays business that could be put in jeperdy here. Name and shame if it turns out to be down to them for sure BUT not at this point in the proceedings  :squintdan :squintdan


I have no doubt ray bought it in good faith, but it's how he handles this. As stated before its his job and law to refund my money which he hasnt yet and its nearly 6 months now.


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## Jay_bee (Aug 1, 2006)

Mate, this is absolutely rubbish, cant believe 6 months down the line this hasnt been resolved or at the very least, is very nearly resolved  
Feel for you buddy!

From what I've read, if Ray is such a stand up guy, why are you still out of pocket?

Hope you get it sorted soon.


Sh*t like this is making me very nervous about buying my GTR, there are seemingly so many import "specialists" around these days, and the majority of them seem like they should be wearing a mask and carrying a gun!

Jeff.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Why would it cost £10k to bring the case to Court? It doesn't seem like the case would involve a mountain of evidence/paperwork (but then I'm not a lawyer).

Also, in case anyone hasn't read the thread in full - Ray is *ignoring Chris* at this point so it doesn't look like he has any intention of refunding his money. Whether or not Ray believed he bought an honest car is totally academic and not Chris' concern.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Durzel said:


> Why would it cost £10k to bring the case to Court? It doesn't seem like the case would involve a mountain of evidence/paperwork (but then I'm not a lawyer).
> 
> 
> .


No idea, when i got the solicitors letter he then sent me through a info pack of what it would cost me if it got to a certain stage, and he said you should estimate 9k-10k in costs.


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## Jay_bee (Aug 1, 2006)

chrisniss91 said:


> he said you should estimate 9k-10k in costs.




Just an idea but it might be worth turning up at the garage with your solicitor to speak to him to see if you can get it sorted out without taking him to court. You dont need to mention that the guy with you is a solicitor unless he starts getting funny with you then he can just step in?

Jeff.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Jay_bee said:


> Just an idea but it might be worth turning up at the garage with your solicitor to speak to him to see if you can get it sorted out without taking him to court. You dont need to mention that the guy with you is a solicitor unless he starts getting funny with you then he can just step in?
> 
> Jeff.


Would a solicitor even do that if he wasn't a mate? And even if he did, it's an expensive way to have a conversation which couldn't be substantiated legally in a court of Law anyway.


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## Jay_bee (Aug 1, 2006)

Like I said, just an idea - i didnt say that a solicitor would agree to it 

I personally think if it was me, I would go and see this Ray in person to try and resolve the matter. Prior to doing that, if its not realistic that a solicitor will go with you, then at least take a threatening letter from a solicitor to hand him should he start being awkward to show him you mean business.

Jeff.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

I agree with you, I'd go down there in person and speak to him face to face. Arrived unannounced.


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## Jay_bee (Aug 1, 2006)

Durzel said:


> Arrived unannounced.


Most definitely :thumbsup:

Jeff.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Sh*t Chris... really sorry to hear this...

How did you find out? I remember when you bought this, I pulled up to the garage to have a look at it when you were signing all the paperwork.

You dont happen to live in Croxley Green do you?

You might see my r32 gtr parked across the road from time to time....

I thought you looked mighty ****ed off and wondered why you never walked over for a chat...but I put it down to a blown engine or something...


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Yep thats me, i'm jealous thats all you can actually mod yours  and there's no way it can be taken off ya, any day. Mine could be taken away at any minute with no warning.

I always look ****ed off btw )


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

I hope it works out mate.

p.s. This thing with Ray really surprised me. I am usually such a good judge of character. I used to live not 5 mins from that garage and even after he sold me my car, he would give us a bell when GTRs came in etc....

very very surprised and very very disappointed in him.

I was only down there on Tuesday last week as Keith next door was doing my MOT. I asked where Ray was and they said he was around.... they seemed to suggest that he was not focussing on imports much anymore... that the money had dropped out of it. It is possible that Ray really had his fingers burnt with your car. This, however, does not excuse his behaviour.

Did you do a BIMTA check on your vehicle?


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

You can make a legal claim (online even these days) costs around £80 (IIRC). This will be served on the garage for their response. Even if you take one of these out, you don't have to follow through with it, although dropping it halfway would look abit odd if you took it further later on.
It would be best to get a solicitors advice when filing one of these, and this shouldn't cost much at all, maybe a few hundred.
The garage will then have to respond in the timeframe, to notify they wish to defend, if they don't, eventually a baliff will get involved. 
When they do reply, a court date will be set. Hopefully it won't go this far, and you'll get a refund before this, I'm sure the garage understands their position. 
Just says you are serious.

Bye the way, if you win in court, the garage has to pay costs, so the £10K (which I have got to say sounds way OTT, for such a open and closed case- probably quoted worse case scenario) will be added to the amount owed to you, providing you win.

I wouldn't wait any longer, I would insist the garage have the car back, and give you a full refund. Force the issue, before it is too late.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

GTRSTILL said:


> It is possible that Ray really had his fingers burnt with your car.


That would only be the case if he had actually paid Chris his money back, instead of keeping it and avoiding/ignoring him.



NISFAN said:


> Bye the way, if you win in court, the garage has to pay costs, so the £10K (which I have got to say sounds way OTT, for such a open and closed case- probably quoted worse case scenario) will be added to the amount owed to you, providing you win.
> 
> I wouldn't wait any longer, I would insist the garage have the car back, and give you a full refund. Force the issue, before it is too late.


I agree with this 100%. It's time to get serious with these cowboys, you've waited 6 months already for a refund and nothing has been forthcoming.


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

chrisniss91 said:


> No idea, when i got the solicitors letter he then sent me through a info pack of what it would cost me if it got to a certain stage, and he said you should estimate 9k-10k in costs.


Its a dreadful situation that you are in Chris.
So was the car stolen in Japan as I thought it was stolen in the UK then exported then reimported with a new ID by Ray?
Initiating proceedings to recover your losses wouldn't cost a great deal and that would mean that Ray would have to legally state his position on the matter.
If the car was stolen in Japan and given the timeframe the legitimate owner will have had an insurance payout (provided the car was insured) so it technically belongs to the insurance company (or the original owner if not insured).
Have you been supplied copies of the Japanese de-registration documents and UK import registration papers by Ray?
I would advise you start proceedings yourself using guidence from the CAB and by gathering info from the internet.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Chris, 

Did you do a BIMTA check when you bought the car? I am sure that these include a level of insurance should it turn out your car was stolen..

I would pretty much ignore all of the daft advice about going round and duffing up Ray etc. As difficult as it is, remaining cool, calm and professional is the only way forward. I very much doubt that the chap in Japan would want his car back, the insurance would have paid out years ago.

How many formal letters have you written to Ray...? I know it sounds weird but in my experience letters tend to have a much better effect than phonecalls, even if they have been sent from yourself.

Its the last thing you want to hear is people saying "oh its awful and what a bad situation" ... you just want your motor back or the money but if it is any consolation... in the grand scheme of things cars are not really very important. Yes you will lose money and yes it will be expensive for a couple of years, but time will pass, lessons are learnt and providing you have your health all will be good. 

Not that long ago I forked out well over half a mill on a house with a woman I was going to marry. She turned out to be a "ringer" and I stand to lose much more than the cost of a skyline. I was annoyed at first but you move on. Life is too short to spend a great deal of it getting ****ed off and miserable coz you lose some money.

Chin up dude, it will work out.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

The thing is nobody is going to do it for you chap, you need to get down there and see the guy and tell him you want a refund. If he's not in leave him a letter, and send a copy by special so he signs for it. At the moment with 'phone calls' he can deny you ever really spoke that much about it. Start writing, go to CAB, but take action. 

T


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

I didnt do a Bimta mileage check, i thought ''from a dealer what could go wrong''. I received a letter from Ray a few days ago. He wants the car back, then he will sell it and pay my money back that way. The problem is i now have the car, It has all my parts onit, my Tyres/alarm/exhaust lots of money so i dont really want to loose all that. I've told him i have the car back on a peace note but heard nothing since. He would also need to buy the car back from the japanesse owner who legally owns the vehicle. 
How much could me or ray sell the vehicle for its all legit on the road its on a M plate. There is no way on earth it could sell for 13.5k i would think more like 7k because of the history?


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Would you need to put a "Q" plate on it??

I am not sure how Ray could sell, to be honest it is not your problem.... he is the professional car dealer here. It is his responsibility to make sure the stock he is selling is legit. If you paid 13.5k I would want that back. 

You might have to take a loss on other stuff. Unless you bought stock items off the forum and sold your aftermarket stuff....


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Is it totally out of the question to ask Ray for 7 grand.... put a tow bar on the back of your EVO and turn it into a track monster....

The alternative is tell Ray to give you 7 and break it....

engine.... 3 grand ish.....
gearbox....

it would be a pain in the **** but you could potentially recover your losses.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

ray needs to give you a full refund. if you've put mods on it, then you need to source the original parts and return them to him.

things like tyres etc you may have to wear

no way should you lose half your money


mook


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

The car has all been registered back on a M plate, i got the log book through today. In an ideal world i'd keep the car and get some sort of compensation for the trouble, loss, and resale value.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

I have a couple of friends in the area with an NSX, 550hp GTR and of course mine.... lets go for a blast... that will cheer you up.

Well... thrashing my friends NSX always does it for me.


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## MeLLoN Stu (Jun 9, 2005)

wow, just read this, really sorry to hear what you've been through mate, absolutely awful situation to be in. 

Hope everything gets resolved without any further loss on your part.


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## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

chrisniss91 said:


> I didnt do a Bimta mileage check, i thought ''from a dealer what could go wrong''. I received a letter from Ray a few days ago. He wants the car back, then he will sell it and pay my money back that way. The problem is i now have the car, It has all my parts onit, my Tyres/alarm/exhaust lots of money so i dont really want to loose all that. I've told him i have the car back on a peace note but heard nothing since. He would also need to buy the car back from the japanesse owner who legally owns the vehicle.
> How much could me or ray sell the vehicle for its all legit on the road its on a M plate. There is no way on earth it could sell for 13.5k i would think more like 7k because of the history?


Ray should refund you what you paid in full and recoup his money by selling the vehicle with any loss due to the questionable history of the car being taken by him. He probably has 10k ish in the car and will not make a big loss. Screw giving him the car to sell before you get paid in full.
The fact that he has admitted liability by making such an offer means court proceedings will be relatively straight forward if needed.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

It's not your problem what he does with it tbh mate, just get a refund for what you paid BEFORE you give it back. Imagine the scenario where the 'peace note' was activated whilst he was 'selling' it and it was taken off him. Do you think you'd get your money still??

Given this whole history I'd be tempted to take the bits you've done on it since on the chin. Much better than loosing £14K. Personally I wouldn't keep the car either...it can seem tempting if you've spent a few hundred quid but think of the possible continued hassle.

T


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## GeorgeGTR (Feb 16, 2006)

So you have the car and it's all legal now?

Ray has offered to take it back and refund you your money when he sells it?

When we sell a car, any direct import I issue a 'Certificate of Authenticity' basically this guarantees you the customer that the car isn't stolen from Japan and if it turns out to be stolen you will receive a full refund immediately!!

Ray should know who is buying his cars from Japan and at the end of the day the fault (which he isn't guilty for) should lie with him and he should cover you, we would have done! As Cam says ray would have got the car for 10k or probably less and doesn’t stand to loose much when he resells it. But you however stand to lose money and no doubt a few sleepless nights over the last few months.

I hope everything turns out happy for you Chris and you can enjoy the car or if not a different GTR!

If the car is legal now and you are the owner then enjoy the car, Ray would of had to re pay the Japanese owner so he'd of bought the car twice and if he has done this fair play to the guy! But I would still be asking for a compensation payout as a good will gesture even if it's a new set of tyres.


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## GeorgeGTR (Feb 16, 2006)

tonigmr2 said:


> Personally I wouldn't keep the car either...it can seem tempting if you've spent a few hundred quid but think of the possible continued hassle.
> T


TBH there shouldn't be any more hassel, if the origanal owner in Japan has been paid out then the car is legit. If it's a good car then it's worth keeping!


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

GeorgeGTR said:


> TBH there shouldn't be any more hassel, if the origanal owner in Japan has been paid out then the car is legit. If it's a good car then it's worth keeping!


I would have thought that if the owner in Japan has been paid out then the insurance company in Japan now owns the car and if they find out they will want it back or compensating?!?


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> It's not your problem what he does with it tbh mate, just get a refund for what you paid BEFORE you give it back. Imagine the scenario where the 'peace note' was activated whilst he was 'selling' it and it was taken off him. Do you think you'd get your money still??
> 
> Given this whole history I'd be tempted to take the bits you've done on it since on the chin. Much better than loosing £14K. Personally I wouldn't keep the car either...it can seem tempting if you've spent a few hundred quid but think of the possible continued hassle.
> 
> T


I agree with this, and what COSSYcam has said.

You might have to take the hit of the modified parts (if you can't replace them with the OEM bits you took off). Taken in context whatever you paid for the mods pales into insignificance against the £14k you've paid for the car. As things stand you don't legally own it, the Police could confiscate it at any time and you could be in a worse position legally if you either agreed to settle for "trouble, loss, and resale value" compensation, or just left it for several months after having been offered a get out.

Gambling on the fact the Japanese owner (or indeed his insurance company) may not seek to recover their costs somehow is a pretty risky thing to do. There are plenty of decent R33s out there that you can have more confidence in owning.


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

Well after all the promises from ray i still have heard nothing from the guy. I have tried legal which costs me way to much. The last i heard from Ray was he will get back to (his fav words) me next week, that was on september 8th 2006. I dont know what else to try I've been to see him but he's never there on the few occasions i've been there. Does anyone know how to find a home adresse if your ex directory? I've looked on the electors list he isnt in there.??


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## Ezno (Jun 1, 2006)

sh1t thats sooo bad

go down the legal route m8 or you wont see a penny by the sounds of it


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## stehub (Nov 16, 2005)

who is the garage in question ? nicenewcar?


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

i had better not say as he has now emailed me and intends to start legal proceddingsa against me


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## pitbull (Sep 1, 2006)

.if its trade then they are reasonable if you buy a car from a trader and its been involved in a accident/theft or any other hip showing matter then they have to tell you and if they don’t you will easy take then to court and get all your money back even compensation for mods you have done and inconvenience


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## Ezno (Jun 1, 2006)

you cant be serious.....he has started legal proceedings against you ?

what a to$$er

GL and hopefully youl take him to the cleaners


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## pupsi (Aug 29, 2006)

If you have a home phone number for him, give it to me , and I'll give you his home address?


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## pitbull (Sep 1, 2006)

Not at all. Get in touch with citizens advice bureau as soon as possible and trading standards. 
They will rip him apart and trust me you will get your money back as they will close him down and take him to court in your defence.
DO NOT BE BUILIED BY THIS GUY.


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## stehub (Nov 16, 2005)

chrisniss91 said:


> intends to start legal proceddingsa against me


on what grounds ?


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## cossiedave (Dec 14, 2006)

hi mate i used to be a sales manager at a car garage and as far as i am aware if you buy a car in good faith from a registered car dealer and it is found out to be stolen the buck lies with the garage and you are entitled to your money back. following the legal route should get you a full refund and then its dont to him to get his money back from were he sourced the car, sounds to me that the blokes shouldnt be selling cars if he doesnt resume responsabillity, hope you get it resolved mate


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## chrisniss91 (Jul 7, 2003)

stehub said:


> on what grounds ?


apparently i've been slating him and his business on here. I have been on these forums for years and i know you are not allowed to talk bad of tuners/ dealers etc or it can get the forum in trouble. I have never slated his garage directly or mentioned his full name or garage's full name. 
So he emailed me saying that he is considering taking legal action against me for ruining his business. Apparently he packed up ages ago. Well my mate rang up to view a car, and the garage rang back the guy said ''Hi its ray'' that was two weeks ago. He did say in his email he stopped trying to recoup my money when my actions brought a halt to his business, BUt he is prepared to help me get full entitlement to the car. The guys the biggest joke, he's turning the whole thing around and making it out to be my fault and pretending his business has gone bust months and months ago, but he was there answering calls 2 weeks ago. People like him need to stop trading immediately. They no all the tricks all the cons


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## pitbull (Sep 1, 2006)

He has no grounds on that so tell him where to stick it.
I think this thread should be blocked now as is leaking info to the trader that could jeopardise the case Chris has against him and pms should be used for proper info relating to this subject.


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## Jamerio (Aug 21, 2006)

From what I can see Chris has not slated the guy/business at all and has been overly decent.

This sort of news spreads very quickly in the car world.
If I was the garage owner I would just pay the guy his money and save the bullshit with the solicitors as it will just cost everyone more money in the end.

I don't think badly of the garage from reading this at all as it sounds like a genuine mistake. hey shit happens.

So if the garage owner is reading this, be fair, pay the guy his money and don't go down the legal route , becasue it will go on and on and it will be on every car forum and you'll get the worst possible exposure that way.

nn merry xmas!


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## cossiedave (Dec 14, 2006)

you are a very patient man chris, i would off lost my rag well before now and paid this man a visit, it seem to me that he his takin you for a mug and even tho you have got the car back you have forked out a lot of money for a lot of grief.


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## Racer GT-R (Nov 15, 2006)

Do a search for the definitions of libel and slander. You'll find that provided you write something *factual*, there's nothing wrong or liiegal with naming and shaming a company who is/has been clearly robbing you. If you're not sure, get legal advice.

This dealer is no doubt a cowboy. 6 months + with no compensation is ridiculous.


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## Aitch (Nov 9, 2006)

In 1999 I bought a car from a local dealer, it transpired the dealer knew it had been an insurance write off but did not inform me of that fact, his defence was I didn't ask..

The problem for me was I paid almost full market value, but the vehicle as a rebuilt insurance write off was worth thousands less. I tried to talk this through with the garage but to no avail. Eventually I found myself in a similar position to Chris, the owners refusing to refund any cash and eventually avoiding me.

I took legal advice, and apparently providing you only make statements which are 100% factual or are in the public domain already, they can do nothing.

So, I placed an ad in the local paper, got a good discounted price for a 3 months booking. This way you pay out just a small sum of money each week for the ad's, so it doesn't hurt you anywhere near as much as it hurts them. I did have one small problem in that the paper did not want to run the ad, but I paid a brief around £130 to explain my rights to them, they ran it!

The ad read something like "Are you looking for a good, honest vehicle at a fair price? So was I, but the one I was sold by John at "Bloggs & Co. of Smithson Road, Wishful Town Centre" was anything but, call me on xxxx xxxxxx for more information"

You see, the content of my ad was the absolute truth, anything else I said to those who rang (and hundreds did!) was in private and in confidence without witnesses.

They threatened to sue for loss of business after 2 weeks, and again after 5 weeks and in week 9 I had a letter from their solicitors threatening pretty much the same. I simply told them to do their worst, they never did and went bust in week 15.

NOTE: in the event of a sole or small trader be sure to get the individuals name in the ad!

Aitch


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## cossiedave (Dec 14, 2006)

thats the way to do it mate hit em were it hurts


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Aitch said:


> In 1999 I bought a car from a local dealer, it transpired the dealer knew it had been an insurance write off but did not inform me of that fact, his defence was I didn't ask..
> 
> The problem for me was I paid almost full market value, but the vehicle as a rebuilt insurance write off was worth thousands less. I tried to talk this through with the garage but to no avail. Eventually I found myself in a similar position to Chris, the owners refusing to refund any cash and eventually avoiding me.
> 
> ...


:bowdown1: We are so not worthy lol.


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## bernmc (Dec 26, 2006)

Wow. Just read this thread after seeing the car for sale in the ads section.

I know that this has been a hugely unpleasant experience for you, but I do think you went about everything the wrong way. The reason that dishonest swines like this trader stay in business is precisely because of this sort of thing - they dig their heels in, be as evasive as possible, and hope that you'll go way. In this case... RESULT. You've taken all the crap, paid the money, and he's got away with it.

Your solicitor sounds like a cowboy too. You should have found another. If you're worried about legal fees, check the terms of your car insurance if you've got legal cover - you may well find that you are covered (no, it's often a whole lot more than cover for accident claims etc). Failing that, if you have home insurance with legal cover, that legal cover will almost certainly cover you - I know because I used mine to pay legal fees for an employment tribunal case.

At the very least, a good solicitor would have had a look at the facts, and given you a formal 'merit assessment' for a small fee. Providing you had a good case (and you had a virtually watertight case), they should have been able to offer you insurance that would have covered the legal fees in case you lost.

For the record, a reputable firm like Irwin Mitchell would probably have jumped at the chance to represent you - easy money!

Sorry to be down on you, *but you did the wrong thing*. The only way to get rid of rogue traders like this is if honest Joe's like you and I go the distance.

You would have had _all _your money back, including those storage fees etc, and possibly a bit of compensation. Instead you're looking at taking 6 grand loss just on the purchase price...


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## Big_Single (Dec 28, 2005)

sorry for the bad news bud


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

bernmc said:


> Wow. Just read this thread after seeing the car for sale in the ads section.
> 
> I know that this has been a hugely unpleasant experience for you, but I do think you went about everything the wrong way. The reason that dishonest swines like this trader stay in business is precisely because of this sort of thing - they dig their heels in, be as evasive as possible, and hope that you'll go way. In this case... RESULT. You've taken all the crap, paid the money, and he's got away with it.
> 
> ...


Have to say I agree 100% with this.

...and that's coming from someone who ultimately dropped a case against the AA due to costs vs likely reward when they damaged the splitter on my R33 dragging it into a flatbed (I told the guy it would damage it but he carried on regardless... they later claimed the damage was done by "kerbing").


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## iketea25 (Nov 30, 2008)

This story helps you keep alert from predators.........


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## slippyr4 (May 2, 2002)

iketea25 said:


> This story helps you keep alert from predators.........


why would you resurrect a two year old thread for such a useless comment as that?


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

slippyr4 said:


> why would you resurrect a two year old thread for such a useless comment as that?


Yes why would you do that? 

It made a bloody good read for me tho, as i have never seen it before LOL.


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## dmcl1980 (Aug 26, 2006)

Rember reading this.So what was the outcome in the end,interesting to know as its 2yrs later,surley chris's issue was resolved(got his money back).


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## cleethorpes (Sep 30, 2008)

Apparantly the Hoosiers were so inspired by this thread...a track was pen'd


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## nozza1 (Jan 13, 2007)

thought it was a good read to,.... would likr to know if it was resolved.


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## Jags (May 20, 2007)

Yes it was. It was given a new chassis number by the police and the car given back to the origional thread starter. He then sold it on to another forum member on here, who in turn sold it to me and I've just recently sold it on a few weeks ago after owning it for almost 2 years.

Was a very very good car.


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## Moff (Sep 27, 2004)

Blimey, what a read. Sat and read all of it...

Glad it had a nice outcome 

Love Aitche's add in the paper 



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## cleethorpes (Sep 30, 2008)

I had a similar problem with an Astra GTE years ago..got pulled over 5 times in 2 days by cars and vans...over 30 policeman in total pulling it apart... turned out the car was stolen recovered..The dealer sold it on behalf of a partner firm...after a couple of threatening letters they agreed to take it back...less wear and tear of parts( had done about 1000miles). Unfortunately one of the salesman was my best mates brother....he had nothing to do with it but it caused a few problems..made sure I ragged the arse off it the day before I took it back...


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## iketea25 (Nov 30, 2008)

It's amazing how Skylines do thier rounds with different owners.


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## iketea25 (Nov 30, 2008)

I apoligize for resurrecting the thread, glad the outcome came out well. Nice read though.....LOL


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## SPEED MERCHANT (Jun 5, 2006)

slippyr4 said:


> why would you resurrect a two year old thread for such a useless comment as that?


Because he probably only just found it, read it & then found it useful as did I as I'd never come across this 

iketea25 - No apologise fella, good find :thumbsup:


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