# YET ANOTHER ENGINE FAILURE



## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Seems like head has lifted, after a complete rebuild only 4 months ago an only running 1.3 bar boost, am totaly pi$$ed off, will have more info on monday or tuesday is being stripped down,!!!!!


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

was it a pro or home build ?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

pro !!!!


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

oh dear which one if i may ask ? any warranty ?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

can say yet mate,they say its down to the mapper lol same old story


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## Mikeydinho (Jan 30, 2009)

Gutting mate!!!


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

after being told it should be good for 900ish bhp an a good 2 bar,mmmm yes gutted to say the least


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

chippy said:


> can say yet mate,they say its down to the mapper lol same old story


im got a good idea mate ur in essex and they obviously dont map themselves.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Will not be stating names untill i have a confirmed explenation for the cause of this utter [email protected]


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

chippy said:


> after being told it should be good for 900ish bhp an a good 2 bar,mmmm yes gutted to say the least


must be a mega bucks build to then mate. hopefully not much wrong though mate.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Fingers crossed


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

Absolutely gutted for you Dave.

And running WAY short of the engines so called potential too! Thats tiny boost compared to what it should be able to handle man!


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

ok, ive had a few pm,s asking if it was built by rk, no it wasnt, i dont want to give anyone a bad name, will let you all know if you want once i have futher info on the reason the engine failed.


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## major beeftank (Apr 23, 2008)

So sorry to hear dave

please keep me informed mate


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

how many miles has it done ?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

1500-2000 maybe, why does this make a difference!


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

why does everyone automatically assume its RK, just because your in Essex?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

why is it ok to praise a garage for good work an yet we feel we cant say when you get a $hit deal by a garage, it either gets deleted or you get banned i expect !


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

I bet you cant wait to get it stripped and see why this happened man. Ron will get to the bottom of it mate.


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## Mook (Mar 20, 2007)

It's cos we get a lot of legal threats which we HAVE to act upon

mook


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## Bandit (Jul 2, 2004)

Ahhh Dave, gutted for you mate. Hope you get this issue sorted and FOC!!!!


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

All this forum is though, is a board for people to speak on. Could the club actually get in trouble for someone airing there views on the forum Mook? I aint clued up on this lark. I'm a mainlayer, i dig holes!!! lol


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Mook said:


> It's cos we get a lot of legal threats which we HAVE to act upon
> 
> mook


ok, easy way round it, if you feel you have had a raw deal by a garage then you must give them oppotunity to fix or help, if you get a lot of crap from them you should be able to name an shame,,, every garage on here should agre to this other wise they not aloud to advertise on here, i can take critisism, if i sell a bag of chips you dont like then tell me, you get your money back or replaced for free, i really dont see the difference, if a garage is ok with being praised the it should be able to deal with the few (mistakes)!!! it makes,


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## creedonsr20det (Aug 6, 2008)

chippy said:


> Seems like head has lifted, after a complete rebuild only 4 months ago an only running 1.3 bar boost, am totaly pi$$ed off, will have more info on monday or tuesday is being stripped down,!!!!!


f*kn disaster man..heart goes out for you.i know the feeling..keep the faith! Might not be as bad as you expect


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## Mook (Mar 20, 2007)

Yeah. Fraid so. We can't prove the claims made by people and can be held responsible for all content posted. So slander etc falls upon us unless we act

be better if companies did a better job serving customers rather than ****ing up then threatening us for letting people tell their story

kudos to chippy for not posting names

mook


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Bandit said:


> Ahhh Dave, gutted for you mate. Hope you get this issue sorted and FOC!!!!


Thanks mate:thumbsup:


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## Mook (Mar 20, 2007)

Actually. You can post the full story, which we would lock until the garage in question responded. But there can be no discussion on the matter in the meantime

mook


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

chippy said:


> 1500-2000 maybe, why does this make a difference!


no mate not at that mileage, its done nothin.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

ok, easy way round it, if you feel you have had a raw deal by a garage then you must give them oppotunity to fix or help, if you get a lot of crap from them you should be able to name an shame,,, every garage on here should agre to this other wise they not aloud to advertise on here, i can take critisism, if i sell a bag of chips you dont like then tell me, you get your money back or replaced for free, i really dont see the difference, if a garage is ok with being praised the it should be able to deal with the few (mistakes)!!! it makes,

Why cant this be brought into action, then we see who is real or fake !!!


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## gtr beast (Feb 4, 2010)

bad luck mate


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## peatough (Oct 6, 2001)

*Dave*

Dave


Feel for you mate.

Regards

Pete


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

dean j said:


> Could the club actually get in trouble for someone airing there views on the forum Mook?


The forum - OC is nothing to do with it - is liable for anything written by a user, so when legal threats are issued we have to act on it. The user should be able to post here but cannot expect Blow Dog to pick up your legal bills.


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## gtr-loz (Feb 10, 2006)

cant you just put allegedly infront of everything like they do in the news!

its a shame there is no way a head lifting at 1.3bar is anything to do with mapping it usually means the head bolts are not tight enough or of poor quality


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

gtr-loz said:


> cant you just put allegedly infront of everything like they do in the news!
> 
> its a shame there is no way a head lifting at 1.3bar is anything to do with mapping it usually means the head bolts are not tight enough or of poor quality


exactly:thumbsup:
p.s i was at that rolling road when the running in map was done an also there when the head liffted , the mapper had only just begun, hit 1.3 bar an engine failed !!!


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## Hja-Ozz (Oct 8, 2007)

Dave,

You say the engine's only ran 1.3 bar boost yet on another thread you started in december you put its been mapped to 1.5 bar boost and making 720bhp?

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/129292-boost-bhp-figures.html

Ozz


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Hja-Ozz said:


> Dave,
> 
> You say the engine's only ran 1.3 bar boost yet on another thread you started in december you put its been mapped to 1.5 bar boost and making 720bhp?
> 
> ...


yes it was, from the start then
was mapped by the mapper for running in ,, i was there,
run car in took back to mapper an he got i think 635 at hub at 1.5 bar
said he could not go any futher till car cooled down,
said i could wait for a couple of hrs but would be charged or come back another day,
desided to come back, tried to book in a couple of months latter to find the mapper has left the buissiness now to do other stuff
booked in with different mapper on same rollers, map left unlocked
he had just loaded the map an done a low boost pass
got to 1.3 bar 600bhp an head lifted,
so what are you saying at 1.5 bar an 720 this is to be expected !!!!!
I DONT THINK SO DO YOU !!!!!


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

Look at the post above yours Ozz.

It hit 1.3 before things went pear shaped.

Heads dont lift at 1.5 bar mate, unless theres an issue with the head bolts. This engine was claimed to be good for big boost and big power! It never got no where near its claimed potential

If i ran my standard engine at 1.5 bar, i'd imagine a million things failing before the head gasket.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

One other thing its 1.5 bar on high an 1.3 on low, i drive it on low unless at the strip which i havent seen for a year i might add, this also accounts for the second mapper hitting 1.3 on low boost pass, one bloody run an the head lifts !!, anyway 1.3 at 600 or 1.5 at 635ish hub power, this should not happen, or does anyone disagree, in any case i will be stripped an fully investigated by an independant engineer if nessesary.


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

*engine failure*

Really do feel for you mate.if i was you id be fuming bud.i hope you get to the bottom off it and if it turns out to be engine builders fault hope they do the honourable thing and sort it for you mate.:thumbsup:


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

herman said:


> Really do feel for you mate.if i was you id be fuming bud.i hope you get to the bottom off it and if it turns out to be engine builders fault hope they do the honourable thing and sort it for you mate.:thumbsup:


so do i then i could at least say some good about them.


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## Hja-Ozz (Oct 8, 2007)

I was just saying that the engine has ran 1.5 bar boost when it first got mapped and made excellent power and the head didnt lift then. 
Its also been running for the last 3/4 months im pressuming fine and as you say on 1.3 bar boost (your low setting) or else you wouldnt have gone to map it for more power.
This would suggest that you arrived at the dyno running spot on and so the mapper is who id be questioning if it was me.

Just my 2 pence worth of course :thumbsup:

Either way sorry to hear whats happened and hope it gets sorted.


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## *Shane* (Jul 21, 2009)

Hope you get it sorted mate. Nothing worse than things like that happening when your after forking out ££££'s of hard earned money


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Hja-Ozz said:


> I was just saying that the engine has ran 1.5 bar boost when it first got mapped and made excellent power and the head didnt lift then.
> Its also been running for the last 3/4 months im pressuming fine and as you say on 1.3 bar boost (your low setting) or else you wouldnt have gone to map it for more power.
> This would suggest that you arrived at the dyno running spot on and so the mapper is who id be questioning if it was me.
> 
> ...


let me explain
the car was mapped to 1.5 i drove away very happy, also knowing that there was more to come,
i had a little play at 1.5 on way home fora while,
i then drove it on 1.3,,, i do not drive on boost all the time, as in holding the car on boost from 4500rpm to 8000rpm i short shift on the road,
therefor i did not see anything wrong with the car an it drove perfect
i then took it back to second mapper who put the car on the hub dyno,
he just down loaded the map as it was left unlocked by the first mapper on my request, he hit 1.3 bar an held it to 8000rpm (which i dont do on the roads) an the head liffted, this is why i didnt know any thing was wrong, i dont think it was the mapper as i was there at the time, an he didnt go past 1.5 bar at any point, so the reason for the head lifting will be found upon strip down, surly you would have det before head lift if it was bad map, who knows but it will get sorted out.
so to end,,, i suggest the head may well have lifted at a point unknown to me,
all i can say is even at 2 bar which is what it was built for, it should not have lifted
if it was a bad map then surly there would have been other signs for me to see, smoke,missing,bad starting,det, to name a few.
regards Dave


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## Mikeydinho (Jan 30, 2009)

This is crazy. Same as everyone keep us posted. I do agree with what your saying, if you have had a bad experance with a garage or trader then the public have every right to say, especially is they never resolved the problem. Just like people do on here when someone buys goods privately and they dont receive them or there not what was advertised. Do they sue, no. People are very happy to take money (abit like the tax man) but when it comes to a problem i.e something breaks or refund there is always a problem and some how your to blame.

Good luck Chippy sure it will work out.

Mikey


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## 2 Black Lines (May 30, 2008)

Sorry to hear the engines let go, could I ask is it the gasket thats gone or has the head actually lifted, have the head bolts failed? have you be able to do a compression test? has it used any coolant before the failure? Is it a std or cometic or tomei type gasket? Are the bolts torqued correctly? - tho you may want to leave this to an independant engineer to asses.

Not sticking up for any builder, but, gaskets do fail, new bolts do shear, but sometimes they do, would not account for poor after-sales back-up tho.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

2 Black Lines said:


> Sorry to hear the engines let go, could I ask is it the gasket thats gone or has the head actually lifted, have the head bolts failed? have you be able to do a compression test? has it used any coolant before the failure? Is it a std or cometic or tomei type gasket? Are the bolts torqued correctly? - tho you may want to leave this to an independant engineer to asses.
> 
> Not sticking up for any builder, but, gaskets do fail, new bolts do shear, but sometimes they do, would not account for poor after-sales back-up tho.


these are all questions i unfortunatly cant answer, i wish i had more knowledge, i will leave this all to the man who knows, i just pay the money, all the time lol,


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

what has the actual engine builder said so far ? have they offered any support at all ?


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

chippy said:


> these are all questions i unfortunatly cant answer, i wish i had more knowledge, i will leave this all to the man who knows, i just pay the money, all the time lol,


Im confused? are you paying the same comany who built the engine to tell you what the problem is? 

Or are you using someone else to strip the engine and tell you waht has gone wrong?

WHen you say the head is lifting? what does this mean? The boost is blowing the head up in the air? 

So not tightened down or you have stretched the bolts maybe?

do you know of any other problems? i take it that the pistons etc are fine? so its not a mapping problem but build problem?


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## G40tee (Feb 25, 2008)

sorry to hear this dude, hope it gets sorted out soon for you.

you going to get the engine stripped down to be investigated first or are you going to await response from whoever the tuner is?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

scoooby slayer said:


> what has the actual engine builder said so far ? have they offered any support at all ?


i phoned an they said an i quote "the only reason a head lifts is if its run extremly high boost, it must be the mapper" . so i knew i had my slap in the face there an was not worth persuing.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

mapping will do it. i know of a massive power cosworth that when dynoed it got to the point that the cylinder pressures were so great it would lift the head slightly and blow the headgasket, but this was at 700 lbft on a 2.1 4 pot engine. il go see if i can find the exact details of what happened.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

mattysupra said:


> Im confused? are you paying the same comany who built the engine to tell you what the problem is?
> 
> Or are you using someone else to strip the engine and tell you waht has gone wrong?
> 
> ...


i am using another garage to strip the engine, i do not know the technicalities of it all, was just told by 2 mechanics(engine builders) profesionals the the head has lifted


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## Hja-Ozz (Oct 8, 2007)

Ive been told that the head will lift due to too much cylinder pressure which comes from excesive boost and will also happen when too much ignition is applied (even at small boost levels).


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Hja-Ozz said:


> Ive been told that the head will lift due to too much cylinder pressure which comes from excesive boost and will also happen when too much ignition is applied (even at small boost levels).


that is fine, that is why i wont mention no names till facts are found


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Hja-Ozz said:


> Ive been told that the head will lift due to too much cylinder pressure which comes from excesive boost and will also happen when too much ignition is applied (even at small boost levels).


thats fine, thats why i wont mention no names till facts are found out


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## trevbwhite (May 15, 2007)

oh shit man! cant beleive its died! so sorry to hear that man!
mines playing me up now too! off to rk again she goes


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

trevbwhite said:


> oh shit man! cant beleive its died! so sorry to hear that man!
> mines playing me up now too! off to rk again she goes


thanks mate good luck


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

it was to much ignition on the cosworth causing the problem. the comp ratio was increased and ignition decreased by 11 d and it was fine afterwards. 

i dont know whats happened to your engine but too much ignition advance can lift a head. and i have that from a very reliable source, one of the best in the cosworth scene.


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## minifreak (Mar 4, 2006)

scoooby slayer said:


> it was to much ignition on the cosworth causing the problem. the comp ratio was increased and ignition decreased by 11 d and it was fine afterwards.
> 
> i dont know whats happened to your engine but too much ignition advance can lift a head. and i have that from a very reliable source, one of the best in the cosworth scene.


At 1.3bar on a engine capable of safe 2bar?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

one other thing i think i should mention,the reason the motor was rebuilt in the first place was while being mapped by the unnamed builder the engine let go, they stated it was the person who built the engines falt, so they encoraged me to let them build it, now its blown again its the mappers fault, same old story, every one blames the other person.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

minifreak said:


> At 1.3bar on a engine capable of safe 2bar?


i havnt mentioned any boost levels as i dont know. all im saying is ignition advance can lift a head, im not saying it has im saying it is POSSIBLE.


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## minifreak (Mar 4, 2006)

scoooby slayer said:


> i havnt mentioned any boost levels as i dont know. all im saying is ignition advance can lift a head, im not saying it has im saying it is POSSIBLE.



Im sure it is mate, but i find it very very hard to understand that it has happened at such low boost, so early in a mapping session by a very experience mapper.

We will only know once the engines stripped.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

chippy said:


> one other thing i think i should mention,the reason the motor was rebuilt in the first place was while being mapped by the unnamed builder the engine let go, they stated it was the person who built the engines falt, so they encoraged me to let them build it, now its blown again its the mappers fault, same old story, every one blames the other person.


**** mate that is harsh. i know id be on a ****ing rampage and somebody would have to take responsibility. one thing is for sure they need mapping by someone who is approved by the builder so this cant happen. 
really feel for ya mate, il be watching this thread with my hawk eye


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

i would also like to publicly invite anyone involved in the company that built my engine to come to the engine strip down on monday 22nd march to get this cleared up once an for all
regards Dave


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Respectfully, Dave.

You need to do that personally. No guarantee they'll read this.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

moleman said:


> Respectfully, Dave.
> 
> You need to do that personally. No guarantee they'll read this.


i will be calling tomorrow, but incase they dont want to talk then its been heard be many that i asked 
regards Dave


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

let us know the findings on monday mate. good luck :thumbsup:


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

scoooby slayer said:


> let us know the findings on monday mate. good luck :thumbsup:


Thank you :thumbsup:


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Its always bad news when an engine goes and everyone looks for someone else to blame, irrespective.

RK has been briefly mentioned and immediately disassociated, which anyone who knows Rod would know his engines don't do this, he is a top guy and would if in the extreme he had built it, he would have already re-built it for you, no questions asked.

The rest of us also know that whilst RB heads do lift, you would have to be deep into the 2Bar boost region for this to happen, unless some muppet didn't torque the head down correctly.

Silly, simple question. After rebuild did your builder tell you to bring it back to have the head bolts checked after bedding in? Its simple, sensible stuff to make sure everything is bolted down to correct torque level after a bit of bedding in. Bolts stretch and do all sorts after a bit of work and heat. Sometimes what people think of as head lift is actually lack of clamping pressure through not re-checking the bolts. The head gasket status might be interesting. 

Hope you get it sorted to your satisfaction.

DaveG


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## Mook (Mar 20, 2007)

Here's hoping this thread is a waste of time and the tuner sorts you out

never nice to hear from an unhappy enthusiast and we are all crossing our fingers for you

good luck dude

mook


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

cylinder pressures lift a head, which is only at best indirectly related to boost pressure.


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## edthemanjp (Aug 27, 2006)

Kismet I haven't been up here for a while and you haven't been over to FA in a while. How many builds are you up to now? I'm gutted for you especially only 4 mos but I haven't seen a build last long for you and thats cool if your really having a lot of fun.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

chippy said:


> i would also like to publicly invite anyone involved in the company that built my engine to come to the engine strip down on monday 22nd march to get this cleared up once an for all
> regards Dave


That what you should do. 

I can only give you an exemple from japan. 
A guy I know a bit, but not well has an R34 GTR with single Turbo pushing around 950HP on the highest map. His pistons melt down when he rolled out from the tuning shop that did his engine, after the first go
Now what ever this was do to an assembly problem, parts quality problem, wrong tuning problem or mapping problem . . . the tuner replaced the howl stuff on the spot and even invested some further parts in to the engine, for a better water circulation.
You have to point out that you pay for the working power and not for X-parts assembled to something that the tuner won`t take responsibility for . . . .


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

gtrlux said:


> That what you should do.
> 
> I can only give you an exemple from japan.
> A guy I know a bit, but not well has an R34 GTR with single Turbo pushing around 950HP on the highest map. His pistons melt down when he rolled out from the tuning shop that did his engine, after the first go
> ...


i to hope it goes that way for me mate, all i want is my car to work an it doesnt, all i know is its not my fault an someone needs to put it right, whoever that may be, fingers crossed mate:thumbsup:


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## psymin (Mar 16, 2010)

Factory block or N1?
Factory head bolts, HKS head bolts or ARP head studs?


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

did you ring them today ? any better response ?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Small update, spoke to the company that built engine an asked if they would like to attend when engine is stripped down on monday, they do not want to be there and are willing to take the word of the person doing the strip down, hopefully this can get sorted sooner rather than latter.


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## d_abbott27 (Nov 27, 2008)

yeh let me know how you get on hope it gets sorted i need to find out how to claim for my engine today proper piss take


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## psst (Mar 16, 2007)

psymin said:


> Factory block or N1?
> Factory head bolts, HKS head bolts or ARP head studs?


I second this question. Friend of mine just had his RB 26 head lift at 1.6 bar which was put down to ARP head studs. Replaced them with Nissan OEM bolts!

Engine builder said he usually uses Trust studs if going for big power and doesn't bother with ARP.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

psst said:


> I second this question. Friend of mine just had his RB 26 head lift at 1.6 bar which was put down to ARP head studs. Replaced them with Nissan OEM bolts!
> 
> Engine builder said he usually uses Trust studs if going for big power and doesn't bother with ARP.


its an N1 block, i sorced it, as for the bolts or studs, dont know, but was built for 2 bar boost an about 850-900 so the builder should have used appropriate ones


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

*bolts*



psst said:


> I second this question. Friend of mine just had his RB 26 head lift at 1.6 bar which was put down to ARP head studs. Replaced them with Nissan OEM bolts!
> 
> Engine builder said he usually uses Trust studs if going for big power and doesn't bother with ARP.


thats intresting as ive gone with arp head bolts and will be looking at around 1.8bar of boost!!that was the reconmedation of my engine builder.guess just av to wait and see. i hope you get it all sorted mate and back up and running very soon bud.:thumbsup::thumbsup: ps i"ll be waiting to see what they find out on monday mate,hopfully your get time to post up the results.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks herman:thumbsup:


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## sloathy (Jun 30, 2006)

ATCO said:


> Its always bad news when an engine goes and everyone looks for someone else to blame, irrespective.
> 
> RK has been briefly mentioned and immediately disassociated, which anyone who knows Rod would know his engines don't do this, he is a top guy and would if in the extreme he had built it, he would have already re-built it for you, no questions asked.
> 
> ...



Have to agree with Dave in respect to Ron at RK,

After I had a prob with a rebuild, Ron took the car back, stripped the engine down and sorted the problem free of charge despite it being mapped elsewhere. Just how it should be :thumbsup: to Ron

I know you love your car Dave and am sure the respective parties will do the right and honerable thing, good luck bud


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

Blast from the past john. Hope you been well mate.

What yank tank you driving these days?


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## sloathy (Jun 30, 2006)

dean j said:


> Blast from the past john. Hope you been well mate.
> 
> What yank tank you driving these days?


On topic please Dean, on topic lol

Im good thanks

I will start another thread and put some pics up if your interested

Its a bit different


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## dean j (Jan 28, 2007)

Yes mate. Im very interested John

Stick up some pics mate.

I suppose its a good thing that they trust Ron and his findings.

Lets hope you get this all sorted and asap Dave


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

looking good then mate :thumbsup:


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

well todays the day mate, let us know the findings


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

*engine*

hi mate,did rod get to the bottom off it?:thumbsup:


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## sloathy (Jun 30, 2006)

herman said:


> hi mate,did rod get to the bottom off it?:thumbsup:


Who is this Rod fella?

Do you think Im sexy?:squintdan


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

sure the head didn't lift from a hot spot in the head from incorrect bleeding procedure. I recently know of an engine that did just this here in aust. Guy who owned the engine put on a new turbo and only topped coolant up...didn't bleed it. Airlock in head caused a hot spot that caused the head to expand in that location...stretched the head bolt and caused cylinder pressure to enter the coolant and blow a welsh plug out. It was lucky it didn't blow his radiator core apart.

Not an issue with engine builder, or mapper...just an owner doing his own upgrade and not following correct procedure.


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## trevbwhite (May 15, 2007)

howd ya get on yesterday mate? see ya up there when i dropped mine off


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Chippy, any update?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

Car is back, thanks to Ron for a quick turn around.


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

Glad to hear that your car is back and happy again. Let's hope it stays that way.

Your story is what put me off tuning my car and with the experiences I already had led me to eventually sell it. I'll probably never go near a "tuned car" again as I found my entire experience with "specialists" to be less than a good one. I won't name names, so don't worry Mook.

I think there are many problems with this industry but overall in my experience the main ones are:

[1] "Specialist" is a too frquently used word and can mean "been doing bad work and offering a shite service to skyline owners for years"

[2] Most of the specialists are too small to offer warranties and often can't afford to fix things for free just for the sake of customer service.

[3] Too many variables and components available to offer a customer peace of mind, just look at the ARP bolt postings above. It ridiculous, "my engine broke and the <fill in the blank> was the cause" results in stories of "well known that product is rubbish" followed by "my tuner says they are the best"...

[4] Every car build is different, usually down to the owners specifications. This means stories of blow ups have so many variables that no one cause for a car running 600bhp can be identified and this leads to panic across the entire forum.

I don't offer any solutions but I would say that until a specialist can offer a total package of build, map and warranty this will carry on. You don't get this with BMW, Porsche etc for the simple reason they offer a package build that they are sure works on their cars. You wouldn't turn up to Ruf (Porsche tuner) with a bag of bits and ask "can you make my car do 900 bhp with these?"

Just a few random thoughts


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

MattB, that is generally how the Japanese tuning shops approach it. You go in and select a package that is a known build for them. They have tested the parts already and have a ready made base map they just load in and 'tweak' for the specific car.

Always made sense to me. This infinitely variable approach strikes me as like trying to re-invent the wheel every time and has the potential for all sorts of problems.


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Chippy, is the car ok now? What was the cause of the prob?


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

ATCO said:


> MattB, that is generally how the Japanese tuning shops approach it. You go in and select a package that is a known build for them. They have tested the parts already and have a ready made base map they just load in and 'tweak' for the specific car.
> 
> Always made sense to me. This infinitely variable approach strikes me as like trying to re-invent the wheel every time and has the potential for all sorts of problems.


Alot of the good ones over here I here do something similar but then you have to go to another mapper/or people choose to so then the poor mapper is getting many variants of build to work with and I think gets a lot of blame that is not always warranted.

I do feel sorry for the tuner too, I rock up with a 15 year old car and hand over 5k for an engine build and something goes wrong.... surprise!


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

all good fella nothing too serious then :thumbsup:


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

All head bolts undone at 60lbs !! apparently this was due to head lifting


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## minifreak (Mar 4, 2006)

or due to lack of torque'n in the first place.:thumbsup:
But again im sure its being blamed on mapping by tuner x:blahblah:

Is it being paid for by you dave? or you being sorted out?


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

they gave me a head gasket an £100


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## minifreak (Mar 4, 2006)

Not too bad mate, but not ideal leaving you out of pocket. but hey, guess its more than you expected after the lack or sympathy they gave you at the start!

All that matters is that shes done now and you know its be done properly.:smokin:

Hope you have no more probs mate.


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

*repaired*

glad to hear you"ve got your car repaired and back onthe road dave.:thumbsup:


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

If the gasket was compromised it will reduce the preload on the studs/bolts, especially if the coolant was repeatedly pressurised by combustion gas.

Over enthusiastic use of ignition timing is very good way to kill head gaskets over a period of time. The pressure spikes caused by even light detonation at moderate boost will be higher than the peak cylinder pressures encountered at high boost running det free. 600hp running lean and mean with frequent detonation will be sure to wreck an engine over a period of time, compared to 700hp running cooler and free of det.

I'm not saying this is certainly the case here, but it shouldn't be discounted, and even if it was the case, the "map" may not be the cause, as there are lots of external influences that can make a perfectly good map not work properly.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

PAVLO
arent you the mapper for the garage that built my engine,
nice to hear your view on the matter
p.s what would the outside influence be to make a map not work
really not up to speed an this stuff, i just cook chips lol


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

I wasn't aware who built your engine.

Other things can be simple stuff like poor fuel, or getting mapped on fuel X but using fuel Y, with some pump fuels being oxygenated, you can experience a change in lambda between fuels aswell as det resistance. It could include a change in environment between mapping and running the car without provision in the map. There are mechanical influences beyond the control of your mapper or builder too, like overheating due to fans not working causing head distortion or bad over heating causing the head to soften at the gasket face.


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

so if you have your car mapped in summer you need it re mapped for winter, do you have to do this for hks f con v pro!


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

i know for a fact ignition timing can do it, it has happened on a yb engine lifting head and blowing head gasket, i think compression was raised and advance reduced to yield the same results with less ignition and it was ok then.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

chippy said:


> so if you have your car mapped in summer you need it re mapped for winter, do you have to do this for hks f con v pro!


when it is proper freezing cold i definitely see more boost than when its warmer. hence given the choice i would rather have a car mapped in the cold weather.

was a reason for the failure given mate ?


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

It's usually not a problem as there is an air temp sensor used by the f-con, and wherever it's mapped it's usually consistent enough. You can get issues for instance when the inlet temp sensor heat soaks, then you run it briefly for a dyno pull, and the air going is in reality much cooler than the ECU thinkgs.

Another definitely head gasket killer is misfires caused by ignition issues, I've done a few head gaskets myself with this as a by-product of the plugs fouling up with heavily leaded fuel. Lead oxide deposits on the plug, combined with carbon and high temperatures can form metallic lead which can be infused by the porcelain of the plug enough to cause the spark to fail. It took me a while to figure out what was going on, and I've since moved away from leaded fuels on Subaru engines in paticular where I wouldn't want to run it really lean, which the leaded fuel likes.

You have to realise that when you start pushing 300hp/L it doesn't take much to tip things over the edge. You can easily have a number of small things that are in and of themselves not an issue, but when combined they create a problem. 

Of these 800-1000hp skylines, how many get used for significant mileage? How many are run on a paticular fuel that comes in a can and is guaranteed to always be the same? How many leave the dyno after the figures have been made, running 100hp less for safety?

I think you should just put it down to experience and worry about cider tax, fuel duty and voting "down with the government"!


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## chippy (Mar 14, 2008)

I always put it down to expirience, no one person is ever going to take blame, so ill just swollow an pay up again, never mind, the joys of skyline ownership:thumbsup:


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Are these engines being run with knock control?


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

No in almost all cases.

Good knock control has been a long time coming in aftermarket ECUs, they tend to rely on being well matched to the exact spec of the car, and run on consistent fuel etc.



thistle said:


> Are these engines being run with knock control?


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

Pavlo said:


> No in almost all cases.
> 
> Good knock control has been a long time coming in aftermarket ECUs, they tend to rely on being well matched to the exact spec of the car, and run on consistent fuel etc.


am i right in thinking paul that as a guide set the pfc knock warning light at 10 digits above mapped knock readings ? i know it isnt accurate especially on my early pfc but just as a warning to back off just in case ?


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm going to start a new thread about R32-34 knock control to avoid polluting this one.


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

scoooby slayer said:


> am i right in thinking paul that as a guide set the pfc knock warning light at 10 digits above mapped knock readings ? i know it isnt accurate especially on my early pfc but just as a warning to back off just in case ?


I would usually set it a little tighter, probably 5-10 higher than max normal recorded knock. I can sometimes result in false alarms but it is safer. The thing is to look at the peak recorded values on the hand commander, I they are up at around 40-45 ( not unusual for rb with forgies) then it could be mechanical noise. If it's 80-90 then serious det for sure. It's not so clearcut on rb engines compared to some others though, some evos will run at around 10-12 max knock without det so a threshold of 16 might be okay. Every engine is different an you can just work on a fixed number.


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