# "Show us your dyno graphs" thread.



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

I dont think we have one here, so maybe it would be good to have one.

Post up your RR/Dyno sheets for your GTRs, along with basic spec (esp things like cam duration etc, rather than just "cams").

Think it would be really interesting, esp where peak power etc is too, which seems to vary massivley on RB26s depending on spec, most than most cars.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

excellent idea Steve. :bowdown1: 

If people do it properly, no waffle, i'll make it sticky

mook


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## jonn (Oct 7, 2006)

HKS 2.8L Crank
HKS Rods
HKS Pistons
Nismo Bearings
HKS 272 Cams
HKS 2530's
Ported Head
Tomei Cam Gears
HKS Valve guides
Tomei Expreme Manifolds
HKS Dumps
HKS S/S Front pipe
Trust PE-2 exhaust
Apexi Intake
HKS Piping Kit
Trust 115mm Intercooler
HKS Fuel rail
HKS 680cc Injectors
Spitfire Coilpacks
Performance Metalcraft Sump
HKS Oilpump
ATI Balancer
ARP Studkits
HKS EVC
Trust Oil Cooler
Nismo Twin Plate clutch
Nismo mounts
PowerFC D-Jetro

522hp @ 20psi


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

@wheels i take it?

any idea what rpm that is?


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## murano3 (Mar 23, 2005)

Ben

R32GTR
Apexi induction
Apexi downpipes
HKS Silent Exhaust
Abbey Decat
Splitfire Coilpacks
Standard Boost.
Standard ECU.

I have got a nismo lighter - so maybe good for 5HP more.

HP at the Fly. 










At the wheels


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## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

murano3, those graphs appear to be from 2 different runs?? 
how do they measure the boost curve on the dyno machine?


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## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

N1 block etc, GT-SS 1 BAR, HKS V Pro (MAP), JUN/GTaRT 264 cams, @ fly:


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## chas (Sep 19, 2003)

Apexi Induction
2 x RB 25 Afm's
Trust/Greddy Intercooler 
Greddy hard pipe kit 
HKS 2530 turbo's 
HKS turbo elbows
HKS Actuators 
HKS downpipe 
Trust power extreme II exhaust 
1.2mm head gasket
GREDDY Cam Pulleys
Tomei Poncams 9.25/260 
HKS fuel pump 
600cc injectors 
Fuel pressure regulator 
RB Motorsport oil cooler
Apexi Power FC ECU 
Apexi boost control kit
OS Giken STR clutch 











2nd run was aborted due to car running lean.

Charlie.


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## murano3 (Mar 23, 2005)

rasonline said:


> murano3, those graphs appear to be from 2 different runs??
> how do they measure the boost curve on the dyno machine?


Normally APT do 3 runs, those graphs are also showing different attributes .. as to the measure of boost I've never really paid any attention - I notice Gary connecting up a number of gizmo's but not really asked what.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

R.I.P.S RB30
Stock crank
Forged pistons
Billet rods
R.I.P.S custom head with 290s
R.I.P.S inlet plem
R.I.P.S 90mm billet throttle body
HKS T51r spl

Measured 890hp at wheels @ 1.9 bar by 7500rpm then got alot of wheelspin on rollers and you can see power fall away quickly (aprox 1100bhp @ 7500rpm, usually rev to 8500 but unsure of power at that point)










Best time to date 9.0 @ 152mph on treaded street tyres, 1.7 bar

Rob


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## tokes (Jul 16, 2006)

Why do you UK people insist on saying how much power it makes at the flywheel? Has anyone ever actually ripped their RB26 out of the car and set it up on an engine dyno with the exact same conditions as a chassis dyno to measure drivetrain losses?

I personally think that saying your car that laid down 260 at the wheels is making 350 flywheel horsepower because you think it loses 25% of it's power to the drivetrain is a bunch of hooey.


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Wish i could find were my power graph is but it was done at RK TUNING and it did have at fly wheel 509 bhp and 400lbft and at the wheels only 350 bhp  seems so small amount at the wheels

thats at 20 psi boost pressure on standard cams and standard intercooler and standard afm's


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Agree totally with Tokes.

IMO the reason is your average car person in the UK is far less knowlegable and is easier bullshitted out of their money, and nice high flywheel numbers thanks to stupid transmission loss numbers is all part of it.

All IMO


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## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

When entering a willy waving contest, would you use a measurement taken when soft, or when hard lol 

Totally agree that power at wheels is what counts, but if it's qualified (i.e. at wheels or at fly etc.) then who cares?


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

tokes said:


> Why do you UK people insist on saying how much power it makes at the flywheel? Has anyone ever actually ripped their RB26 out of the car and set it up on an engine dyno with the exact same conditions as a chassis dyno to measure drivetrain losses?
> 
> I personally think that saying your car that laid down 260 at the wheels is making 350 flywheel horsepower because you think it loses 25% of it's power to the drivetrain is a bunch of hooey.


from what i remember GTR's have always lost quite a chunk of power through there drive systems , cant prove it right now but ive always been lead to believe that and from that chunky 4wd system i would have thought that to be true . i might be wrong lol but just what i thought.

and any way i thought the tuners would have a base quidence to work from meaning knowing the average loss in the drive system for skylines meaning the fly wheel figures are not acurate but doesnt mean they should be far away from the truth either or have i got that wrong ?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

tokes said:


> Why do you UK people insist on saying how much power it makes at the flywheel? Has anyone ever actually ripped their RB26 out of the car and set it up on an engine dyno with the exact same conditions as a chassis dyno to measure drivetrain losses?
> 
> I personally think that saying your car that laid down 260 at the wheels is making 350 flywheel horsepower because you think it loses 25% of it's power to the drivetrain is a bunch of hooey.



Its not hooey at all I'm afraid.
The guy that supplies the type of dyno we use HAS taken a RB26 engine off an engine dyno and put it in a GTR and compared apples with apples and he found 29% power loss when in 4wd (rolling road dyno)

We have also tested a few stock factory 2wd cars and get 21-25% lower figures at the wheels than the factory claimed engine output.

At the end of the day, I agree, at the wheels is what counts but when so many cars have been tested on the dyno we use and everytime we have found 18-21% for front wheel drive, 20-25% for rear wheel drive and 25-29% for four wheel drive I believe we can make a pretty close 'guestimate of engine power based on the whp figures we get.

Out of interest, what would you estimate 890whp @ 7500 rom with alot of wheelspin through a prehistoric T400 trans on a rolling road be in bhp?

Rob


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

159bhp losses?, thats as much power as a lot of 2 litre emgines make lol

j4zz


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Its not hooey at all I'm afraid.
> The guy that supplies the type of dyno we use HAS taken a RB26 engine off an engine dyno and put it in a GTR and compared apples with apples and he found 29% power loss when in 4wd (rolling road dyno)
> 
> We have also tested a few stock factory 2wd cars and get 21-25% lower figures at the wheels than the factory claimed engine output.
> ...


exactly what i ment lol but u said it in more detail compared to my post :thumbsup:


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

T.F.S. said:


> 159bhp losses?, thats as much power as a lot of 2 litre emgines make lol
> 
> j4zz


thats why ive been looking at those carbon fibre propshafts for if the can help free some of that power up as i already have a light weight fly wheel


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

This disscussion has been had many times.
At the wheels is what gets you down the road/strip we all agree on that.

Can anyone really disacgree that a high power GTR can't 'use' around 200hp to drive the highly stressed gear box, transfere case, 6 driveshafts, 2 x diffs, 4 x wheels, 4 x tyres etc when a single supercharger off a decent V8 can easily use ALOT more than 200hp to drive it? (some top drag engines use over 1000hp just to drive the blower, no shyte!!)

There's alot of moving parts, alot of heat and drag and when you put alot of power through something the extra loadings and distortion add alot to the power used to get a result at the wheels.

Rob


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Its not hooey at all I'm afraid.
> The guy that supplies the type of dyno we use HAS taken a RB26 engine off an engine dyno and put it in a GTR and compared apples with apples and he found 29% power loss when in 4wd (rolling road dyno)


Rob, I'm not merely dismissing what you say you have physical proof of but it doesn't seem right to me.
Hopefully you will understand why I think the losses you state are too much and possibly you'lloffer an explination for my case? 
My car made 580BHP at the wheels (N1 RB28) using a T04Z at 1.6Bar, that equates to 816.9BHP using a factor of 29% transmisssion losses (OS88/II Box).
I'm just struggling to believe that's the case, it's more likely to be somewhere near the 650/700max wouldn't you agree? The characteristics of the turbo just wouldn't be able to make that much power at 1.6Bar.


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Not an RB26, but here's a dyno plot for my R33 running 14psi with an internally gated GT30R with a gentle tune on a completely internally stock RB25 (~375whp)


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Matt j, I'm sure the figures you have at the wheels are correct and for the type of dyno you were on 29% is probably not correct, you weren't testing on OUR dyno, thats the whole point, your not comparing apples with apples, were you on a hub or roller dyno?

If we were on a hub dyno our power figures at the 'hubs' would be higher than we get at the wheels on the rolling road (lower loss %)

This has been talked about many times before and all I can say is, on the dyno we use, we have tested many stock 2wd and 4wd cars and without fail they have ALL given around 21-23% (2wd) and 27-30% (4wd) power loss over the manufactures power output figures and the distributor of the dynos has done back to back testing of a GTR engine from engine dyno to the car on his rolling road and it was 29% difference.

Unless we are at the same place on the same day testing on the same dyno there's no point in trying to compare numbers, unless you have 1/4 mile mph V weight. 

Its not like our whp figures are high either as the mph V weight calculations work out pretty much spot on every time too.

Based on your thoughts/findings, what would you estimate 890whp @ 7500 rpm with wheelspin through a prehistoric T400 trans on a rolling road be in bhp at 8500? 

Rob


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Rob,
I think you've misread my question as some sort of dig mate.
I think I now understand what you're saying.
For your 'specific' application you've found that a rough correction factor to use is 29% given the age and condition of your machinery and additional tyre/roller losses.
Which is differnet to making a statement that all transmission losses are 29%.
Of the 4 runs I've done on Dynopack, Dastek and Dyno Dynamics all losses have equated to about 15% max across the board.

If I ever get to use the car again I'll let you know what time it does.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

matt j said:


> Rob,
> I think you've misread my question as some sort of dig mate.
> I think I now understand what you're saying.
> For your 'specific' application you've found that a rough correction factor to use is 29% given the age and condition of your machinery and additional tyre/roller losses.
> ...


No worries at all Matt, I definatly didn't take anything you said as a dig.
I'm always very carefull to say that any figures I give or quote are related to the dyno we use and I have never made a statement that all transmission losses are 29% for all GTR's on any dyno.

The 4 runs you've done have been on modern hub dyno's and maybe 15% is correct for them but have they done back to back from an engine dyno to establish the 15%??

I'm sure if I took the wheelspinning 890whp and put that on a new hub dyno where wheelspin and roller power losses are eliminated we'd get a figure around 1000whp, lets presume we do, then lets presume the 15% loss for a crap old auto in 2wd was correct that would give 1000whp devided by .85 = 1176bhp which is actually higher than my estimate of 1100bhp.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter as even whp figures can vary vastly from dyno to dyno, all I know is the old girl ran 152 mph on the 1/4 at 1.7 bar, no NOS and on crap street tyres with a weight of 1320kg, and you need at least 800whp to do that.

We've been to 2 bar and 150hp of NOS on the dyno but can't get a reading due to wheelspin, I'm pretty confident of 1000whp+ on full song and the time/mph will show one way or the other once we get the trans sorted and some more track time.

I'll be more than happy with a street drivable, fully road legal mid 8 at around 160mph and thats certainly what we are aiming for.

Rob


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I buy those driveline figures...so at 1.5bar I'm running 620~657 crank hp, 496 whp. The question now is...what am I making with 1.9 bar??


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Jaycabs,

Well my dads R32 running the same boost as yours on N1 steel turbos made 371bhp at the wheels (442bhp at the flywheel) on a dyno dynamics (R34 afms)

A lot of people thought that was low, but APT Tuning (see Murano's dyno graph) did the tuning and said that was right for the spec.

Maybe RIPS or someone can advise why the atw figure for a MAHA is so much lower than the estimated flywheel figure, but the Dyno Dynamics was only 16% lower for my dads car (I see Murano's is a larger percentage)?

Maybe one of the tuners can give a little tutorial how different dynos work and the reasons for the differences?

Cheers,


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## DaveV (Feb 27, 2007)

markM3 said:


> Maybe RIPS or someone can advise why the atw figure for a MAHA is so much lower than the estimated flywheel figure, but the Dyno Dynamics was only 16% lower for my dads car (I see Murano's is a larger percentage)?
> 
> Maybe one of the tuners can give a little tutorial how different dynos work and the reasons for the differences?
> 
> Cheers,


Yes indeed, my dyno run @ 0.85bar on a MAHA RR gave me 200bhp at the wheels but 340bhp at the fly  
The fly figure seems correct as I measured a 4.5sec 0-100kph yet the ATW is very low and suggests over 40% driveline losses...


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

DaveV said:


> The fly figure seems correct as I measured a 4.5sec 0-100kph yet the ATW is very low and suggests over 40% driveline losses..


Well seeing as it guesses flywheel figures from testing wheel figures, and not the other way round, thats not physically possible.

How was the 4.5 timed BTW?


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## DaveV (Feb 27, 2007)

SteveN said:


> Well seeing as it guesses flywheel figures from testing wheel figures, and not the other way round, thats not physically possible.
> 
> How was the 4.5 timed BTW?


With an accellerometer (AP22), it only starts timing once you move and the speed reading matches my GPS so i'm pretty sure it's accurate.

The car certainly doesn't feel like it's only got 200bhp at the wheels either as it's noticeably quicker driven back to back than my old S14a that has 220bhp atw.

It just seems strange as the fly figure matches what others have got with the same spec but the wheel doesn't.

I'm not too bothered really as on the road performance is more than acceptable, it's just strange is all. I've seen other graphs from MAHA dynos with very low wheel figures but estimated fly as expected???


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

not the clearest picture of last year's dyno run, but you can see where power maxes out when the boost hits 1.5bar and the controller keeps boost pegged at that point. I had the front propshaft removed and dynoed RWD.


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## DaveV (Feb 27, 2007)

Here's a few old dyno graphs that are still online, note they are all from a MAHA dyno again so some strange wheel versus fly figs but you can still see the curves nicely 

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/717-dyno-runs.html#post6453


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## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

Dyno'd at TDi North in Warrington on roller dyno.

Made 365 FHP and about 285 WHP

Had it dyno'd about a month later at HyperSR in Wigan, again on roller and made about 350 at the fly.

Standard bar exhaust, decat, downpipes and filters.


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

Here's a recent dyno run on 24/7 street tune using pump gas at 23-24 psi. Pertinent mods are full house 2.8ltr, full head work with 272 cams, VCam SPL, Nismo plenum, 1000cc fuel setup, 49mm throttles, twin 2835Rs, just about everything you can change. :squintdan Power is at all 4 wheels on a Bosch dyno with a calculated flywheel estimate based on a suite of inputs. (approx. 13%) 

Grey Line - PS at all 4 wheels
Red Line - Estimated PS at flywheel
Blue Line - Torque in kg/m
Green Line - Boost in kg/cm
Dark Purple Line - A/F ratio (14.7 stoich)
Pink Line - PS loss on roll down


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## jonn (Oct 7, 2006)

Graphs and specs only people!!!

If you want to discuss anything start another thread elsewhere. I'm sick of going through pages of comments to look at others setups. 

Rant over......


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

jonn said:


> Graphs and specs only people!!!
> 
> If you want to discuss anything start another thread elsewhere. I'm sick of going through pages of comments to look at others setups.
> 
> Rant over......


its a forum which is a social website meaning any were on here people will obvioulsy discuss things especialy about there cars and even though it does have percific categories for certain discussions , its just going to happaen lol and theres nothing wrong with that . 

if every thing was in complete order then it would just get boring .
and its very informative to others to see spec and things to these grapths so it also can help others at the same time too .

again all about information and good socialising makes a friendly and interesting website . 


(most of the time lol  )


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## jonn (Oct 7, 2006)

SteveN said:


> @wheels i take it?
> 
> any idea what rpm that is?


Yes at the wheels (where it matters).

Peak power is around 7000rpm


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## gavman (Apr 12, 2006)

tokes said:


> Why do you UK people insist on saying how much power it makes at the flywheel? Has anyone ever actually ripped their RB26 out of the car and set it up on an engine dyno with the exact same conditions as a chassis dyno to measure drivetrain losses?
> 
> I personally think that saying your car that laid down 260 at the wheels is making 350 flywheel horsepower because you think it loses 25% of it's power to the drivetrain is a bunch of hooey.


well it was only a matter of time....


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Maybe a thread for how much does your car weigh and what mph does your car run on the 1/4 is needed, Ooohhh, hang on, but then someone will pipe up and say scales can read differently and that they run on uphill or non prepped tracks. :chuckle: 

Who really cares anyway, as long as your happy with what your car does and if your so inclined, your aiming to go quicker each time you go out thats all that really matters.

How about a 'show us your wheelstands section' NOW your talkin my language, lol :smokin: 

Isn't sarcasm great :chuckle: 

Rob


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Ok boys lets keep it to the dyno graphs and not start to argue about discrepancies. 

Here are mine

Boost controller switched off. 1 bar of boost V-power fuel










1.4 bar of boost, V-power fuel










2.2 bar of boost VP Import race gas.










2.8 ltr
HKS step 3 crank
Tomei Rods
Tomei pistons
HKS T51 turbo
Tomei pro cams 280x10.8



Smokey :smokin:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Smokey 1 said:


> Ok boys lets keep it to the dyno graphs and not start to argue about discrepancies.


Spot on.

Let's keep a good idea from SteveN on track.


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## jae (Aug 28, 2002)

*Most Recent*

Dark lines are current, pale lines are previous set up. Dyno'd RWD with front prop removed, power is at hubs. (I use +35-40bhp & ft/lb for estimated flywheel figures, just to muddy the waters some more.)



RB26
V-Cam (with throttle position control instead of manifold pressure)
Procam outlet (270/270/10.25)
0.5mm overbore
1.5 bar
F-Con V Pro
GReddy PRofec Spec-B


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Cant find my sheet so i will say Lemon is around the 500 bhp and is very heavy.

The White is around 650 bhp and is very light.



Mick


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## StretchGSK (Oct 24, 2006)

Standard Vspec II
5zigen cat back exhaust
1.17 bar of boost (17Psi)
Using a Turbosmart Boost Tee as the budget did not stretch to a EBC.
F-con VPro tuned by Andre at Speedtech
Injectors must be pretty close to the limit but Andre recons it is safe.
To save you the bother of conversion thats about 370Hp ATH


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

DAm , Im sure Ive done this already somewhere

Heres my car with nismo rs581's / 1.3 bar boost / HP at the wheels








Heres the same chart with crankshaft horse power








And heres the exact same car with HKS 2530's and BMF dumpies 1.5 bar boost
Kilowatts AT THE WHEELS ON A HUB DYNO
Someone else can work out crank hp etc:
Interestingly enough, they come on much more aggresively than I thought they would, the rs581's were really nice.











ps and also ....
The car ran 11.35 @ 200kph on the old setup with 1,2 bar boost using the pfc pro with launch control and I have yet to get under 12 flat with 100 more hp at the wheels even with the boost on 1.2 bar its still slower / I changed the brain to a pfc d-jetro then discovered it didnt have launch control so I have been trying a gizzmo one , but to be honest , I really dont give a shit how fast it does in the 1/4 as all the event I use the car for are counted down or done with a hocky stick start ....


Heres the car


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## sultan (Mar 26, 2009)

Old Thread, but I thought i'd throw up my results after fitting and mapping the Power FC to my 33:

*Current Spec:*

RB26DETT Engine @ 83170 Km

Apexi Induction Elbows and Apexi Air Filters
Apexi Power FC L-Jetro Version
HKS Boost Controller
Full Exhaust & Decat
Running on Super Unleaded

The rest... is standard

*Blue *= Waistgate only
*Green *= 0.75 bar
*Red *= 0.95 bar

Factoring in a 29% transmission loss, 325.6 + 29% = 420.02 @ the fly!

Not bad i guess :clap:


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Remember the Power and torque is measured at the hubs not the wheels , 29% is far to much.

70bhp is what we add onto the hub figure to give you an approx flywheel figure , you car produces approx 400bhp at the flywheel. It is not using enough air flow meter voltage to produce 420bhp.

hope this helps


mark


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

70bhp seems high as only 70 bhp was added to the figure at the wheels on the graph for my old mans GTR32 which was a normal rolling road. 372 atw to 443 atf, or is that pessimistic (afms were well over their max voltage)?

Cheers,


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## sultan (Mar 26, 2009)

ok cool, 
cheers for the info there Mark & Mark


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

As normal opens a can of worms. Been running GTR,s on dyno for nearly 7 years. Been using 70bhp hub to flywheel for 7 years , cars been on over dyno,s backed up the figures.


dyno figures nothing to do with AFM voltage, just not a good tune if the AFM,s was over voltage thou.

I would say your dad,s car is way over 460bhp.


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Ok. Thought it was relative to other cars with over 500bhp.

Cheers,


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## endo (Jul 11, 2007)

Curiosity got the better of me and i finally got the car dynoed... beats giving a blank stare when folk as "how much power am i running...."

342.9hp measured at the hubs 
(0.94bar)

filters,
downpipes/exhaust/Decat,
Mine's VX-Rom
N1s
V-Power 99










for comparitive purposes, i've overlayed the dyno from back when i originally got the car


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