# a question for the mods



## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i would like to ask the mods why the traders on here, persistently keep advertising things for sale but asked to be pm for price,i would also like to ask when someone privately puts something up for sale,why you are on their case straight away,i haven't got a particular axe to grind but just find it irritating,that there's one rule for one and not the other.(rant over)


simon


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

simon tompkins said:


> i would like to ask the mods why the traders on here, persistently keep advertising things for sale but asked to be pm for price,i would also like to ask when someone privately puts something up for sale,why you are on their case straight away,i haven't got a particular axe to grind but just find it irritating,that there's one rule for one and not the other.(rant over)
> 
> 
> simon



Fair point....

Had noticed this also.


TT


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

agree, this is very annyoing. It usually means its going to cost way more than it should. I don't bother with those for sale adds due to that reason


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

I did raise this some time back and the answer was a bit inconclusive.

If you're a private seller you should know how much you want for something. If not, you're going to try for top dollar on ebay.

In the case of traders, I got the impression that if prices were advertised then another trader could PM an interested party with a slightly lower offer and could end up always winning the business. Newera tend to state that exchange rates differ and that's why they won't commit to firm pricing but I'm not sure how valid that is. 

I used to think it was unfair that traders got to keep prices unknown and private sellers had to disclose but I don't think there have ever been that many complaints about it. Also, the private seller often only has one of anything for sale and it's unlikely someone else will try and sell the same thing under their nose as we always remove the old 'I've got one of those if you're interested' type posts from FS threads anyway. If forum sponsors don't feel they're getting a fair slice of the pie, they're not going to renew so I suppose there is a case for keeping them happy, to a degree.

I can certainly raise the point again but I think the situation will remain as it is to be honest.


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

its not creating competition. Its similar to price fixing and at an uneducated guess, possibly against a consumer law


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

It's called price fixing and should be stamped out.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I know one trader who not only has hidden fees but also depending on who you are charges a different price and sometimes makes up the price as he goes along 

Let's just say I would not use that trader for anything no matter how good the deal is.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

FRRACER said:


> I know one trader who not only has hidden fees but also depending on who you are charges a different price and sometimes makes up the price as he goes along
> 
> Let's just say I would not use that trader for anything no matter how good the deal is.


:bowdown1:


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

matt j said:


> It's called price fixing and should be stamped out.


How would you break up a cartel?


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

JTJUDGE said:


> possibly against a consumer law


Scottish or English law?:chuckle:


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Scottish or English law?:chuckle:


European but I get the joke.

I'm just to worried too enjoy it


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

If you don't like how a trader trades, then don't trade with them. It's a free country!


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

I agree , there is quite a few foreign traders on here now that , 1 trader can get the monopoly on not having to display prices ! I mean the rate in any currency is that , so if you trade in Europe prices in Euro , trade in Britain prices in £ , trade in Japan prices in Yen .
All that's gotta be done is a simply equation for buyers to work out final price , if they can't work that out , if the trader wants the sale they'll help them out


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

I can understand traders problems.
They put a price up and as soon as someone looks interested others can PM them undercutting the price.

I'd much rather traders had clear pricing, at least so I can see I'm paying the same as everyone else, but I just don't think it's viable due to the way the system works with PMs etc...


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

tonigmr2 said:


> If you don't like how a trader trades, then don't trade with them. It's a free country!


Fair answer ! but just a question , for many years on here a for sale add comes up . No price ,where private or trader . You have replied to both private and trader " forum rules must post a price " but not some traders , is this not a forum rule regarding Traders


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Well from my experience some 'favoured' traders are immune to any kind of wrist slapping whilst others will be punished. There should be one rule and it should be enforced equally. As said so called individuals should never be allowed to become bigger than the forum.


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

I think traders should be made to put up prices that way us customers could get things cheaper, if traders don't need to put prices up I can't see why private sellers do


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## evogeof (Aug 3, 2014)

Traders on other forums are supposed/usually offer a discount between 10/20% sometimes. In most cases this old pm me a price rubbish they will load the price up to suit. Your better off ringing them up for prices.


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

If another trader can under cut another trader then the original traders price was to high imo.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

For private yes we do enforce it, simply because we are not ebay and things get very messy indeed if there is a PM auction going on.

We did used to enforce public pricing for traders. But I am afraid not everybody plays the game and plays the PM system, and there are genuine issues around currency fluctuations. So for now we allow the traders pretty loose reigns. We'd prefer it, but we don't enforce it. My own view is market forces will dictate, if you're having to chase a trader for prices and it irks you, you'll spend elsewhere. Plenty of places on and off the board that display it all if that's what you prefer.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

tonigmr2 said:


> We did used to enforce public pricing for traders. But I am afraid not everybody plays the game and plays the PM system,...


Now that the forum is owned by a larger entity and given that the number of traders has tripled in the last three years, those that don't play ball can surely be asked to play ball or leave?




tonigmr2 said:


> ...and there are genuine issues around currency fluctuations


I don't buy the currency argument either tbh. An item is a set price in whatever country and that local price with an import cost can be stated along with a caveat re the exchange rate.


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

That's Fair enough Toni , it is possibly to penalise the traders also but end of the day as long as either which way it's 1 rule for all then that's fair enough! Those that post prices should be the benefits for it


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I just had a look in the traders for sale section, of 20 threads on the first page each and every one contains a price, consisting of several different traders.



Second page, one breaking a car with as yet unspecified parts appears to be the only unpriced. How much of a problem is this?


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Maybe you missed these

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/292890-border-strut-brace-gt-r.html

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/291634-mines-r33-34-air-scoops.html


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

FRRACER said:


> Maybe you missed these
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/292890-border-strut-brace-gt-r.html
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/291634-mines-r33-34-air-scoops.html


Maybe you missed this one?

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/277586-garrett-gtx-gt-turbos-contact-us-best-prices.html


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe you missed this one?
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/277586-garrett-gtx-gt-turbos-contact-us-best-prices.html


Hard to put a price on a custom built turbo until given the requirements from the customer though Tazz so in fairness to them, I don't think that counts


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe you missed this one?
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/277586-garrett-gtx-gt-turbos-contact-us-best-prices.html


Doesn't count, each customer has different requirements so has to contact the company first.

Supertec have been a good company to deal with so far, with some cracking products such as the spline drive conversion!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

The simplest answer, as Tazz has said, is to prevent "Shilling". If a trader puts up their price and another trader Pm's the potential customer with a lower price it's not fair. Likewise non-paying traders will sometimes send PM's and entirley undermine the whole system.
I would hope, anyone buying form a trader that says "PM for prices" would also contact other traders to check that price is competitive. It must be remembered that when you buy from a trader, you do so as a free individual entirely separate from the forum. If you pay too much it's because you were happy when quoted and post purchase did the research you should have done pre-purchase.

Thats it really, you don't have to put a price on a TV advert, or a magazine advert and consumers will do their research first, they should do the same on here. If a trader is too expensive, don't moan about it, just don't use them.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Saifskyline said:


> Doesn't count, each customer has different requirements so has to contact the company first.
> 
> Supertec have been a good company to deal with so far, with some cracking products such as the spline drive conversion!


Hang on, everything posted is in the traders section of the website. Seems to me rather draconian to insist on prices that are posts speculatively advertising. Let's not turn this into a witch hunt of people not liking a particular trader, it's not going to be changed on that basis.

In the trader for sale section everything looks priced. Seems fair enough to me.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

^^^^^Look at that, a Royal Flush^^^^^


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe you missed this one?
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/277586-garrett-gtx-gt-turbos-contact-us-best-prices.html


We always try to list the prices where we can the GTX concept being somewhat new was posted to gauge interest in the product and to get ideas of the number of people so prices can be finalised.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

FRRACER said:


> We always try to list the prices where we can the GTX concept being somewhat new was posted to gauge interest in the product and to get ideas of the number of people so prices can be finalised.


Seems a reasonable explanation any trader might give.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

tonigmr2 said:


> Hang on, everything posted is in the traders section of the website. Seems to me rather draconian to insist on prices that are posts speculatively advertising. Let's not turn this into a witch hunt of people not liking a particular trader, it's not going to be changed on that basis.
> 
> In the trader for sale section everything looks priced. Seems fair enough to me.


I don't have any problems with any of the traders on the forum, if that's what you're trying to get to.
There is one but it's not like I will never buy from them lol


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

Mookistar said:


> The simplest answer, as Tazz has said, is to prevent "Shilling". If a trader puts up their price and another trader Pm's the potential customer with a lower price it's not fair. Likewise non-paying traders will sometimes send PM's and entirley undermine the whole system.
> I would hope, anyone buying form a trader that says "PM for prices" would also contact other traders to check that price is competitive. It must be remembered that when you buy from a trader, you do so as a free individual entirely separate from the forum. If you pay too much it's because you were happy when quoted and post purchase did the research you should have done pre-purchase.
> 
> Thats it really, you don't have to put a price on a TV advert, or a magazine advert and consumers will do their research first, they should do the same on here. If a trader is too expensive, don't moan about it, just don't use them.


That makes sense I guess, 

Quietly just walking away


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

tonigmr2 said:


> Hang on, everything posted is in the traders section of the website. Seems to me rather draconian to insist on prices that are posts speculatively advertising. Let's not turn this into a witch hunt of people not liking a particular trader, it's not going to be changed on that basis.
> 
> In the trader for sale section everything looks priced. Seems fair enough to me.


I ask for fairness not favouritism against a certain trader. Some instances prices cannot always be placed I agree with that but where possible one should always try. We generally try not to sell items that are already sold here or has a saturated market if we do we supply at a price that benefits the customers wallets, we offer something different in line with the company way of doing things.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Exactly my point. I view an ad without a price just as any ad, you might enquire, you might not.

If it's got a price, you're more apt to decide you want it, particularly if it's keen. 

It's up to the traders in their section how they want to play it. I suspect you soon learn what you get most response to.:chuckle:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Mookistar said:


> If a trader puts up their price and another trader Pm's the potential customer with a lower price it's not fair.


This would only apply if a buyer declares an interest on the open forum and since it can also happen when buying/selling privately, I don't really see the difference. It makes it a buyers market, which is how it should be.

I'm with Toni though. If there's no price quoted, I won't enquire.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Massively duplicitous if you ask me - and given your oft stated stance of how shit UK traders are I find it even more outrageous.

Still at least now I know one trader in the UK to avoid.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Putting up a price where possible makes it easier for the buyer to decide as stated above, whats wrong if another company offers the buyer thr same item cheaper and get the Sale?? Surely thatll create competition on prices that we will benefit from!?! I dont see the problem, surely it'd only be a problem for the traders who usually (not always I know) have a profit margin that can be tweaked if need be to gain the sale


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

if a private seller has to state a price then so should traders and that's all there is to it imo.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Sorry, double post!


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Criticism of traders prices is a subject that is never far away but I'll ask everyone this, if a trader is consistently charging too high a price for their goods then surely they won't sell anything and will ultimately go out of business? How come they still exist, are doing well and have been around for a good while? It's not by overcharging as you can only get away with it for so long.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i think the essence of my post has been side stepped all I'm asking for is people private and traders to follow the very rules that the gtr forum have set themselves,I'm not debating or trying to instigate a personnel attack on any body,i merely get very frustrated when i see a product that I'm interested in,and the trader says please pm me for price,i realise these traders are on here to make a profit,but i think they should also remember that the people on here are enthusiasts and treat the forum as their own,but the very function of the forum relies on the rules it sets,could you imagine if we didn't have any.

simon


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

The thing is the Traders have asked for the "post a price" rule to be relaxed for the very reasons I stated. If it costs them business then that it their concern. As a buy it takes two seconds to send a PM and if you can't be bothered then you can't want the item that badly 

Seriously though, I've built the various rules and systems on this site over time using feedback and experience, and this is just how it works best.

Mike


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

But then a private seller asking for a relaxed aproach wouldnt get that same response!!


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

stevros said:


> But then a private seller asking for a relaxed aproach wouldnt get that same response!!


exactly, its silly and unacceptable imo its a rule that shouldn't be broken trader or not.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> But then a private seller asking for a relaxed aproach wouldnt get that same response!!


no because they are not traceable and don't contribute to the running of the forum.

Also, with a trader, you can compare prices, but a private seller you can't. So, when someone says "offers" you end up with a dutch Auction.

I'm satisfied the system works.


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

Poor excuse that, everyone should be made to state prices. This forum favours the traders over the public it's a poor show this!


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

It's also a big waste of time for both parties having to send emails


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Dan ep3 turbo said:


> It's also a big waste of time for both parties having to send emails


So they lose business. It's their call to put a price up and as Toni says, it's hardly a prolific activity.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Dan ep3 turbo said:


> Poor excuse that, everyone should be made to state prices. This forum favours the traders over the public it's a poor show this!


Really? How so?


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Maybe they do 'fund' toward the site but this is member/community opinion. Where would the site/traders be with no community to sell to!! This is obviously turning into a pointless debate now!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> Really? How so?


Actually, ignore that because I know what the answer will be and it's the same old story. It's been discussed countless times and I can't be doing it again.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> Maybe they do 'fund' toward the site but this is member/community opinion. Where would the site/traders be with no community to sell to!! This is obviously turning into a pointless debate now!


How is this an issue?

Item x for sale - PM for price

Send a pm, don't send a Pm, what does it matter? Nobody is harmed this way, it's just a bit more leg work. Choose to buy from a more transparent seller. It s so simple.


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

Mookistar said:


> Really? How so?



Because it seems you don't want to enforce it on the traders as there worried about a bit of competition but that would mean us public would get our parts cheaper 

So in my eyes that favours the traders so they can earn more money


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Dan ep3 turbo said:


> Because it seems you don't want to enforce it on the traders as there worried about a bit of competition but that would mean us public would get our parts cheaper
> 
> So in my eyes that favours the traders so they can earn more money


does no-one on this forum understand the concept of "business?" Is "profit" a dirty word? Is earning a living so evil?

Because there is an element of users on here who seem to think it is. They want everything for nothing and will gripe at the first instance if they think they've paid too much declaring they've been "ripped off"

ITS BOLLOCKS

Traders on this forum are no different to shops in a shopping centre or Adverts in a magazine. It's a Turkish Bazaar. You wander around, see things you like and if you are happy with the price you buy them,. 

What profit the seller makes or how much cheaper you "could" have got it for is entirely irrelevant. I'm sick to the back teeth of people declaring "rip off" when a trader quotes a high price. It's business. it's the way the world works. If you can get it cheaper, go buy it but don't post on here in a self satisfying rant about how you avoided the "GTR Tax" and the "rip off traders"

You pays your money, you take your chance.

Mike


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

Mookistar said:


> does no-one on this forum understand the concept of "business?" Is "profit" a dirty word? Is earning a living so evil?
> 
> Because there is an element of users on here who seem to think it is. They want everything for nothing and will gripe at the first instance if they think they've paid too much declaring they've been "ripped off"
> 
> ...


No profit isn't a dirty word it's how the world works, and the difference with a shop is the prices are clearly advertised and it means the shops have price beating schemes what mean the public get things cheaper


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Dan ep3 turbo said:


> No profit isn't a dirty word it's how the world works, and the difference with a shop is the prices are clearly advertised and it means the shops have price beating schemes what mean the public get things cheaper


yeah, and look where that's got us. Dead high streets and big business destroying the little man. Sorry, lower prices are NOT always a good thing.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

The whole "shops have prices in them" argument is a bit daft IMO, because I'm sure a lot of people check the prices on the internet before buying something on the High Street.

This takes time and quite often saves them money.
Any different from PMing traders?

If you just want to walk into a shop and pay whatever the rate is then just buy the part from the first place that has it with a price indicated.
As buying on impulse is a priority.
Just don't moan that you are getting ripped off afterwards.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

But I cant see the issue with them having to show a price where possible, I mean why not?
More than likely they dont want to as its then apparent to other traders what theyre charging, and they dont want to get undercut. If there prices were that competitive in the first place they wouldnt have to worry!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> But I cant see the issue with them having to show a price where possible, I mean why not?
> More than likely they dont want to as its then apparent to other traders what theyre charging, and they dont want to get undercut. If there prices were that competitive in the first place they wouldnt have to worry!


THAT'S THE POINT!

If they post a price and other trader shill their business by offering it cheaper it's damaging for all. If it was a hugely common occurrence I'd look further into it but it simply isn't.

Perhaps having been in independent retail my perspective is different.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

I guess so mate, obviously im just looking at it through a buyers eyes!! All I mean is if another UK company on this forum can undercut anothers chances are they get them from the same suppliers at the same or similar cost meaning the undercutted seller is maybe trying to make more from there stock than others. Yes good business but not great for consumers. If we can get the same for cheaper what wiuld you do!


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## Johnny G (Aug 10, 2012)

Wow.
I've never even seen this as an issue.

And still don't.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> I guess so mate, obviously im just looking at it through a buyers eyes!! All I mean is if another UK company on this forum can undercut anothers chances are they get them from the same suppliers at the same or similar cost meaning the undercutted seller is maybe trying to make more from there stock than others. Yes good business but not great for consumers. If we can get the same for cheaper what wiuld you do!


OR one business has lower overheads or no overheads or is avoiding paying tax or import duties or VAT or generally not playing fair.

Again, shop smart and you'll always pay the lowest price anyway.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Now its just maybes mook. I dont think its a concern of the buyers what companies overheads are or arent. If I can get the same item at an undercutted offer by a different dealer whats wrong with that. 
Ill just agree to disagree mook! As you said were just looking at it from different sides!


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

Mookistar said:


> does no-one on this forum understand the concept of "business?" Is "profit" a dirty word? Is earning a living so evil?
> 
> Because there is an element of users on here who seem to think it is. They want everything for nothing and will gripe at the first instance if they think they've paid too much declaring they've been "ripped off"
> 
> ...



I totally agree with all the that but it doesn't change they fact they should have to state a price, as that is bolloxs also imo


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> Now its just maybes mook. I dont think its a concern of the buyers what companies overheads are or arent. If I can get the same item at an undercutted offer by a different dealer whats wrong with that.
> Ill just agree to disagree mook! As you said were just looking at it from different sides!


You're not listening. you CAN can the same product cheaper but its up to you to do the research as opposed to having a Trader posting a price, you responding 'PM sent' or something and the next thing you get a PM from 5 other traders all trying to undercut each other. 

Yeah its great for you but ethically it stinks in my eyes.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> Again, shop smart and you'll always pay the lowest price anyway.


Sorry but I've seen first-hand that your statement is total BS Mike, having witnessed calls and seen emails/messages between several traders on here, second hand parts price fixing is a common occurence. I've even seen PMs from traders telling users that their prices are too low.

A rule is a rule - post a price or don't trade, simples!
Business and profit are not dirty words as you say but price fixing and profiteering are. You're in position to be able to stamp it out yet you're choosing to favour the trader over the community IMHO. 

Why is the GTR Register pandering so much to the traders, I appreciate they pay a premium to advertise but it's not a licence to get away with underhand tactics. 

I think I'll become a trader soon and upset the apple cart(el).


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

matt j said:


> A rule is a rule - post a price or don't trade, simples!.


except that isn't the rule?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> except that isn't the rule?


http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/151710-users-note.html

Post 5 by yourself?


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## jonnypolish (Sep 25, 2012)

Mookistar said:


> You're not listening. you CAN can the same product cheaper but its up to you to do the research as opposed to having a Trader posting a price, you responding 'PM sent' or something and the next thing you get a PM from 5 other traders all trying to undercut each other.
> 
> Yeah its great for you but ethically it stinks in my eyes.


Gonna jump on this thread again, Mook if that's the problem you could ask the Traders to sign an agreement not to undercut but post the parts in another thread with a price? if it undercuts then that's fair game? This is BUSINESS. No dirty word in profit but if everything is advertised at the traders own price the traders that charge more will soon loose custom. It's a dog eat dog world. 

The good thing I have found about the GTROC is that the traders offer various parts and you don't tend to find the traders sell the same parts as each other. 

All I ever see on this forum as justification is that everything is for profit which is fair enough, BUT if a trader can sell for less and still make profit then who cares... The Traders are here to support the forum and make money out of us, the forum shouldn't need to adhere to their every whim and demand because they post prices which "can" be undercut. 

Rant over.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

I'm really sorry i asked this question,it doesn't seem to have reached a happy conclusion,except that if you don't want to state a price you don't have to,unless its a private sale,at least i now know that the rules of this forum are changeable depending who you are.


simon


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

By that then Simon, surely thats classed as discrimination!?!


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

it was never my intention to start such a large thread on this,but it arrived out of my frustration of the traders not following the forum rules, which are quite diligently enforced by the mods against private sellers,now i know the new rules i shall happily keep quiet.


simon


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

matt j said:


> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/151710-users-note.html
> 
> Post 5 by yourself?


in the private for sale section?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Traders, by their very nature, are not normal users and therefore different rules apply.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Oh yeah and don't cut and past your advert as they will kick you from pillar to post !!!!!!


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Steve said:


> Oh yeah and don't cut and past your advert as they will kick you from pillar to post !!!!!!


Indeed, lazy sausage swinger...:chuckle:


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Talking about Lazy CHIP !!!! (or alternative) and leave my sausage out of this


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## rogerdavis (Feb 16, 2008)

Mookistar said:


> Traders, by their very nature, are not normal users and therefore different rules apply.


Seems like they call the shots and you simply oblige. The forum would not exist if not for the people who make this place what it is. Traders and tuners can be given their marching orders if they do not comply. I cannot understand now that the forum is out of private ownership why this place cannot be cleaned up and have proper rules and policies in place. 

We need a clear traders and personal member policies with no exceptions no matter which trader you are you must comply.

Dan you make some good points mate, we are in a world of competition and consumers have a choice, those who fix prices must not be used they would soon back down and lower theirs.

MattJ, who is fixing prices? Maybe it is time that it is investigated?


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

It's funny how things are persieved, re - traders agendas!!!!! Been on here a long time , most that trade here trade under a name / company name / what ever have an under banner as such .
Oh I introduced myself signing up ! Grow up / you agenda is apparent now


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

FRRACER said:


> Well from my experience some 'favoured' traders are immune to any kind of wrist slapping whilst others will be punished. There should be one rule and it should be enforced equally. As said so called individuals should never be allowed to become bigger than the forum.


Some favored Traders , regardless of name still have a banner of such posted below their names which shows them as that ! Tbh I honestly agreed with you in you arguments for a while but if you haven't got anything to hide why not show your true face ?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

I'm not going to publicise the conversations or messages I've been unfortunate enough to see and hear but at least 3 of the forum traders are price fixing second hand parts to keep prices artificially high. Mook says shop around but I fail to see how that will help any of the members. 

Here's a thought:

Take 1 part required second hand, it can be anything. Now call all the forum traders for a price and see what you're quoted. Shouldn't take anyone too long to do and I'd be interested to see the results. Supply and demand???


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

The cost of parts has nothing to do with the forum and traders exist who aren't on the forum but still talk to all the other traders. It's the way of the world that maintaining value in the market is what supports the business. 

Plenty of markets have been destroyed by falling prices and unsustainable business practice.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i for one don't have an issue with the traders on here,as has been said many times you can vote with your wallet,(i.e. don't purchase from them if they are too expensive)
and I'm sure everyone copies everyone else's prices,why wouldn't they thats perfectly normal,(you don't sell a car under market value knowingly,you look at the average price,)my one and only point was that they follow forum rules,and they are accountable to us the forum,they are not above us, as people seem to think,as said above there would be no forum without its members,the mods run the forum, ( but we are the forum )

simon


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

If you had a part, let's say a carbon fibre splitter. You bought it for £800 new.
It's been on the car a year, you fancy a change. You see someone else selling similar for £650 and it goes quickly. What are you gonna do? Sell it at £500 to do everyone on the forum a favour? No. You're gonna put it up for the same. I don't think that's price fixing. That's looking at what other people achieve and getting as much money as possible. Private AND traders likely do this.

With the amount of traders around nowadays, '2 or 3' ringing each other is not price fixing. Getting opinions if you are not quite sure on the value of an item is one thing. Proving a cartel from a few conversations quite another. And there are a huge amount of places to get things nowadays. If I don't like a price I shop around, period.


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

Toni , your right in what your saying But at the same time but let's say a particular trader being accused of x and y from Z that turns out to be a trader under the ribbon of " oh I said hello "


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> With the amount of traders around nowadays, '2 or 3' ringing each other is not price fixing. Getting opinions if you are not quite sure on the value of an item is one thing. Proving a cartel from a few conversations quite another. And there are a huge amount of places to get things nowadays. If I don't like a price I shop around, period.


Oh, so traders 'setting' prices between themselves and contacting private members telling them they're selling things too cheap and to increase prices is 'getting an opinion' now? Make the calls yourself, been there and done that and had the laughs, bought from a private seller in the end who'd had the PMs and was 1/4 the price of the traders for a 15 year old piece of battered plastic.

I do find it odd how the mods jump to the defence of the traders every time. You gave a suggestion and I have already done what you suggested, I gave you a suggestion and you ignore it and make up excuses for them...


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

anyone can charge what they look I buy loads of machine parts every week keeping 30 machines alive, but the prices should be stated as private sellers have to, there is no excuse to make them void from the rule imo.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

I know how hard it is running your own business so will always have sympathy for anyone in retail/trade. 

I do not support the ethos that cheaper is better either.

Sorry

I pay the going rate for things and if that is inflated by the traders, unless someone else comes along and breaks the mould then there's nothing that can be done.


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

Mook , I seriously respect what you do on here and your profession makes your role possible !!! I'm honestly shocked at a trader to run under a Shadow for their excuse to be I said it at the start .
To be a ignorant newbie owner


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Its obvious a lot of people do feel strongly about this, no matter how strongly you feel for the traders should you not at least consider what is being pointed out? Why cant they just show a price? Its not hard for them to do, they no what they want for something so post it up! Saves them and us, the community that use this forum, time and would probably increase sales too in some cases


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## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

stevros said:


> Its obvious a lot of people do feel strongly about this, no matter how strongly you feel for the traders should you not at least consider what is being pointed out? Why cant they just show a price? Its not hard for them to do, they no what they want for something so post it up! Saves them and us, the community that use this forum, time and would probably increase sales too in some cases


Your totally right , but how can someone(trader) jump between user names an then try and ridicule an actual trader ? I don't think at the moment price is an issue , it all about the deception when the person involved doesn't believe a crime is commited


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

simplysideways said:


> Your totally right , but how can someone(trader) jump between user names an then try and ridicule an actual trader ? I don't think at the moment price is an issue , it all about the deception when the person involved doesn't believe a crime is commited


To me, you're now making this a personal issue, so I'm out.
As I've stated from the beginning, price fixing is going on but it looks as if it's supported here by the comments made by admin, I'm not going to argue, I have a different opinion which I've simply voiced.

You're picking on one individual who is open about having a company login and a personal login, that's a different argument altogether and another topic. But, I will say this, are you that myopic that you think he is the only one, I do hope not.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i appreciate all the comments and feelings on here from you guys both private and admin,i don't want anybody singled out,the whole issue was and is about putting prices on the products you are selling,lets keep it blame free and sort this issue out,as its our forum.


simon


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

simon tompkins said:


> i appreciate all the comments and feelings on here from you guys both private and admin,i don't want anybody singled out,the whole issue was and is about putting prices on the products you are selling,lets keep it blame free and sort this issue out,as its our forum.
> 
> 
> simon


although it should happen, it wont unfortunately. 

I hate everything POA its stupid and does my head in for all walks of life, just put a price ffs !


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

As I said its seems its what people want on our forum so please mods consider it, dont pitter patter to the businesses, they wouldnt be in business if it wssnt for us and our hard earned!!


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

So whats stopping you all from PMing the traders, getting a price, and just posting up the price?


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Whats stopping them putting up a price for all to see?


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Its their choice, as per the forum rules, but if you dont agree, why not help the community, get the price, if you know where you can get the part for less say so. 

Doing so, may even get them to rethink their strategy on how they sell things here..maybe..

This is like walking in to a shop, and getting pissed about the shop owner not sharing their trade prices with you. 

No one here pays for the forum, the traders have to pay to be here. If you want to be able to put up things for sale without a price, im sure the admin will be glad to take your yearly fee for the privilege


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Im pretty sure if I took it upon myself to post where to get stuff cheaper all the time, the traders will inevitably kick off, then the mods will be all over it cos someones upset the traders promoting non-forum paying businesses,and id probably get suspended etc for showing where to get things for cheaper, but from 'outside' traders! Cant win that way buddy even if it is helping fellow owners get a deal!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> Im pretty sure if I took it upon myself to post where to get stuff cheaper all the time, the traders will inevitably kick off, then the mods will be all over it cos someones upset the traders promoting non-forum paying businesses,and id probably get suspended etc for showing where to get things for cheaper, but from 'outside' traders! Cant win that way buddy even if it is helping fellow owners get a deal!


Yeah. Try that in currys and see how long you last.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Yeah but they put the prices for all to see too!!


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Im not on here to upset people and have been civil as have most throughout, I jus think they should show the prices as do most comments on here, its not a lot to ask and makes prospective buying much easier for all!!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

But...
They don't have to. So if you aren't happy, don't buy from them. They'll soon learn. 

It's so simple I cannot believe it's taken 7 pages of discussion.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

Rain said:


> So whats stopping you all from PMing the traders, getting a price, and just posting up the price?


Let me know how many replies you get from the traders you pm.:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Its simple but taken seven pages cos some of us want this to happen mook, no argument for it would mean nothing to discuss


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

The point being, if people here actually care, they will keep the community informed of who is padding their prices unfairly and who isnt, the mods have a job to do, fair enough, but they cant ban people or suspend people for merely saying 'Shop around, the price i was given was high @ £xx.98' its a fair comment. 

If people are interested where you saw it, let them PM you for that, im not here to condone people start a war, but if you are blindly buying things without checking your options, you are shopping wrong. Due diligence. 

The PM me for pricing has gone both ways BTW, I remember a trader from Japan who was selling parts here so cheap, that traders here in the UK got pissed off and complained because it was far cheaper than MSRPs that EU distributors were giving. So they were not allowed to publically display the price.


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Saifskyline said:


> Let me know how many replies you get from the traders you pm.:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:



I dont buy from many traders here, I have a small handful I give my business to, who ive never had issues with, all my other stuff comes directly from Japan or the US.

Plus, I dont buy things one at a time, I prefer to priced for a project, where everything is agreed before we being.


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## SklyaFett (Oct 18, 2005)

I can see this from both sides, as I work in buisness. The pricing of skyline parts has been ott from the word go. It's called skyline tax! But most of the traders will probably seriously suffer if the forum was not around. Skylines are a niche market so traders can get away with charging over the top prices. Also these cars are getting old so prices are going to go up. Putting prices up will promote things to be more competitive. 
But at the end of the day it's not going to change. An if you need the part what's the harm in pming?
The forum needs the traders and the traders need the forum.
Jeff


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

matt j said:


> To me, you're now making this a personal issue, so I'm out.
> As I've stated from the beginning, price fixing is going on but it looks as if it's supported here by the comments made by admin, I'm not going to argue, I have a different opinion which I've simply voiced.
> 
> You're picking on one individual who is open about having a company login and a personal login, that's a different argument altogether and another topic. But, I will say this, are you that myopic that you think he is the only one, I do hope not.


Thank you Matt. As per this http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/269897-welcome-supertec.html

I have been open from day one since we setup, and those who buy from me know that very well. but also as a member should I not be able to express my views just like others here or complain when some has tried to do me over?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

matt j said:


> Oh, so traders 'setting' prices between themselves and contacting private members telling them they're selling things too cheap and to increase prices is 'getting an opinion' now? Make the calls yourself, been there and done that and had the laughs, bought from a private seller in the end who'd had the PMs and was 1/4 the price of the traders for a 15 year old piece of battered plastic.
> 
> I do find it odd how the mods jump to the defence of the traders every time. You gave a suggestion and I have already done what you suggested, I gave you a suggestion and you ignore it and make up excuses for them...


Sorry but not every trader is on the forum. Heck I've bought R34 GTR subframes off eBay, to have a cartel you need a closed market. There isn't one.

So you get one deal from someone and everyone else is fixing their prices! Right. if you don't like the price don't pay, easy.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> Sorry but not every trader is on the forum. Heck I've bought R34 GTR subframes off eBay, to have a cartel you need a closed market. There isn't one.


Not every trader is on the forum? A very ODD statement when we're ONLY talking about FORUM TRADERS, no? Is latching on to one word (a play on words at that) I thought was actually funny really achieving anything, seriously, I get it, I know you support the traders here and there's no need to try and justify your stance.



tonigmr2 said:


> So you get one deal from someone and everyone else is fixing their prices! Right. if you don't like the price don't pay, easy.


Be as supercilious and patronising as you want Toni, I've already suggested you actually do something rather than just making excuses but clearly you won't.
I didn't get just one deal by the way, I've had many, I research who a UK distributor for a product is and in EVERY case, they're cheaper than the traders on here. Odd don't you think? Second hand prices are the same, I now know which companies on here to avoid as they're fixing the prices and keeping them artificially high.

I vote with my wallet and have the time to research parts and prices, although the fruits of which cannot be posted on here as you moderate anyone stating parts can be purchased elsewhere at a better price.

I've said my piece, try and throw any angle you want at it Toni but for it to stick, you have to be right, and you're not.


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## gtroc (Jan 7, 2008)

matt j said:


> Not every trader is on the forum? A very ODD statement when we're ONLY talking about FORUM TRADERS, no? Is latching on to one word (a play on words at that) I thought was actually funny really achieving anything, seriously, I get it, I know you support the traders here and there's no need to try and justify your stance.
> 
> 
> Be as supercilious and patronising as you want Toni, I've already suggested you actually do something rather than just making excuses but clearly you won't.
> ...



Where is that LIKE button


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## NI-GTR (Jun 25, 2008)

I don't often post on this forum and certainly not on this sort of thread, but I couldn't help notice the same people moaning on this thread are the same people who posted on my engine build thread. 

Talking of agendas and whatnot seems odd. Has nobody else noticed the same group of people are always the ones to post in these threads, moaning and whining about how "things aren't fair" all of the time. I can imagine they go through life making enemies and probably have injury lawyers4u on speed dial. 

It's a bit sad really, and must he hard constantly putting the world to rights. 

No doubt this will get deleted but it's difficult to respect these opinions when the posters who told me not to use tuners, wouldn't tell me who to use instead. It all seems a bit suspect, especially considering one of the turns out to be a trader himself. 

It just makes them look like they would complain about the clouds in heaven.


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

NI-GTR said:


> I don't often post on this forum and certainly not on this sort of thread, but I couldn't help notice the same people moaning on this thread are the same people who posted on my engine build thread.
> 
> Talking of agendas and whatnot seems odd. Has nobody else noticed the same group of people are always the ones to post in these threads, moaning and whining about how "things aren't fair" all of the time. I can imagine they go through life making enemies and probably have injury lawyers4u on speed dial.
> 
> ...



FR has never hidden the fact he runs a business. He echos many people views on the state of the tuning industry. Not just in the UK, but globally.

Ive had equally terrible dealings with both Japanese and UK shops in the past.

If no one said anything, good or bad, wouldn't that just leave the community open to being taken advantage of over and over?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

matt j said:


> I didn't get just one deal by the way, I've had many, I research who a UK distributor for a product is and in EVERY case, they're cheaper than the traders on here. Odd don't you think? Second hand prices are the same, I now know which companies on here to avoid as they're fixing the prices and keeping them artificially high.
> 
> I vote with my wallet and have the time to research parts and prices, although the fruits of which cannot be posted on here as you moderate anyone stating parts can be purchased elsewhere at a better price.
> 
> .


That IS what I am saying, the board is not a closed shop. If people fixed prices here (which is still all hearsay), you have the choice to look elsewhere, no?

And we moderate price posting on other people's threads yes. Thread crapping is always moderated, because that is what it is. On private and trade threads.

We all have the ability to shop around, it's not the boards responsibility to hold your hand or even monitor the market. No need to be rude,I'm just saying how I see it.


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

tonigmr2 said:


> That IS what I am saying, the board is not a closed shop. If people fixed prices here (which is still all hearsay), you have the choice to look elsewhere, no?
> 
> And we moderate price posting on other people's threads yes. Thread crapping is always moderated, because that is what it is. On private and trade threads.
> 
> We all have the ability to shop around, it's not the boards responsibility to hold your hand or even monitor the market. No need to be rude,I'm just saying how I see it.


In light of that statement then, would the mods delete a post made outside of a traders area, referring to a part or price, and where it could be had for less?

If this is not a closed marketing site, and is open to ALL skyline owners who are here for the support of the community of owners, is doing that allowed?

Edit:

I dont mean some random less the 50 post guy saying 'I can get this part for cheap'

I mean long standing members who say something along the lines of "That price seems a little high, I know XYZ has the same part for 50£ less" or "The price of that part is high, I know you can get them for less, let me know if you want help"


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

It depends in their affiliation with the seller doesn't it. Plenty of people talk about nengun and the like and we don't remove them. Actively reacting to a post made by a trader selling an item by posting you can get it for less is disrespectful in my opinion and I dont see how it could be seen as being "fair" on any business trying to make a living.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

How about another section then Mook? Trade for Sale, Private for Sale and a section for users to post what parts they bought, who they bought from and unit cost?
Then people can post who've they've dealt with and give feedback of non-subscribed traders and prices can be posted. I've got a few details of UK companies who have no links to any forums and I'd be happy to share my dealings with them to assist the community....

After all, they're just selling parts to everyone, they don't care what any of the traders on here price the same items at. Fair market then?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

NI-GTR said:


> Talking of agendas and whatnot seems odd. Has nobody else noticed the same group of people are always the ones to post in these threads, moaning and whining about how "things aren't fair" all of the time. I can imagine they go through life making enemies and probably have injury lawyers4u on speed dial.


If you, even if just out of curiosity, did a little research because of those comments then all was not in vein. I have a solicitor on speed dial, would you like to know him many times he's been called by members on here this year alone? I'll tell you anyway, the answer is 16! Buyer beware but of course negative feedback isn't allowed. 

Small world.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

No. This forum is a community and the traders are the local high street. You don't have to shop locally but by doing so you support the community. We can all buy online or in out of town superstores but just like the high street you are not allowed to open a pop up shop and wouldn't be welcome standing outside shops with a megaphone dissuading shoppers. I'm sorry, you'll not change my opinion on this. If you think you can get a better deal elsewhere, do so bit don't undermine legitimate business in the guise of some moral campaign. 

Just because someone else sells an item cheaper doesn't mean that is the right price nor does it mean that traders are too expensive. 

If you don't like that then don't use our traders.


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## NI-GTR (Jun 25, 2008)

matt j said:


> If you, even if just out of curiosity, did a little research because of those comments then all was not in vein. I have a solicitor on speed dial, would you like to know him many times he's been called by members on here this year alone? I'll tell you anyway, the answer is 16! Buyer beware but of course negative feedback isn't allowed.
> 
> Small world.


I did do my research and do you know what I found? A minority of wingers and whiners who are the sort of people who go through life and find fault with everything and a majority of people perfectly happy with their tuners.

Those wingers probably upset waiters and get their food spat in and probably behave in a certain manner towards the tuners they eventually fall out with. Incompatible people who just annoy others and then wonder why they get bad service or ill treatment. I bet those who are in contact with your solicitors are all of the same ilk. 

I put myself in the camp where I trust others and act respectfully at all times and I believe that any relationship is equal and two way and so when I chose my tuner I made sure I liked them as much as their prices. 

I'll look forward to comparing my build to Saifskiylines when it is finished. You'll note I've not had to scrounge around for secondhand parts. 

Exciting times.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> No. This forum is a community and the traders are the local high street. You don't have to shop locally but by doing so you support the community.


No, this is your enforced vision of what you think the community is, the community is talking to you now and even after 7 pages, you're still not listening.



Mookistar said:


> We can all buy online or in out of town superstores but just like the high street you are not allowed to open a pop up shop and wouldn't be welcome standing outside shops with a megaphone dissuading shoppers. I'm sorry, you'll not change my opinion on this.


Funny thing is, last time I was in Curry's buying a TV, they price matched the online quote I had and were happy with the deal, very happy as it goes. Sorry, but we obviously disagree and that's ok, the difference is, you're the one in a position of power and responsibility and are openly encouraging a closed market place. 




Mookistar said:


> If you think you can get a better deal elsewhere, do so bit don't undermine legitimate business in the guise of some moral campaign.


I KNOW I can get a better deal elsewhere Mike, that is the whole point.
You support the traders, I get that but don't do it under the guise of it being best for the community, especially not when the community is questioning your actions.




Mookistar said:


> Just because someone else sells an item cheaper doesn't mean that is the right price nor does it mean that traders are too expensive.


Don't you think it's better for the community to decide that by communicating with each other first? You say in one breath that people have the freedom to choose who they buy from and in another take away the option to discuss. As you don't own the forum, perhaps ask those who do.



Mookistar said:


> If you don't like that then don't use our traders.


For the majority I don't, if they were competitive with the prices I can get then maybe I would BUT they're not - as said many times now.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Matt, all of your comments work on the assumption that the traders can AFFORD to charge less and are making excessive profits. Knowing the costs of running your own business i'd argue that the margins they make are fair and whilst currys can afford to operate on turnover based rebates, traders don't have such luxuries.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

NI-GTR said:


> I did do my research and do you know what I found? A minority of wingers and whiners who are the sort of people who go through life and find fault with everything and a majority of people perfectly happy with their tuners.


Do you really think a solicitor would build a legal case just because someone was just whinging? (A successful legal case...)



NI-GTR said:


> Those wingers probably upset waiters and get their food spat in and probably behave in a certain manner towards the tuners they eventually fall out with. Incompatible people who just annoy others and then wonder why they get bad service or ill treatment. I bet those who are in contact with your solicitors are all of the same ilk.


Irrespective of what type of person they are or what type of person you choose to label them as is of no concern, are you trying to intimate that only customers who are outspoken get ****ed over? Preposterous by definition.



NI-GTR said:


> I put myself in the camp where I trust others and act respectfully at all times and I believe that any relationship is equal and two way and so when I chose my tuner I made sure I liked them as much as their prices.


Been there and got the T-Shirt, there was never an issue in the relationship with my tuner before my legal case and why would there be. You're a paying customer and they're a charging business, it's only when one party doesn't uphold their end of the deal. 
Would you have such a good relationship with your tuner if they (for example) destroyed you engine and said shit happens. I'm sure you'd be fine and it wouldn't question your relationship now would it...




NI-GTR said:


> I'll look forward to comparing my build to Saifskiylines when it is finished. *You'll note I've not had to scrounge around for secondhand parts.*


Good, because you'd likely be a victim of price fixing lol :chuckle:


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Mookistar said:


> No. This forum is a community and the traders are the local high street. You don't have to shop locally but by doing so you support the community. We can all buy online or in out of town superstores but just like the high street you are not allowed to open a pop up shop and wouldn't be welcome standing outside shops with a megaphone dissuading shoppers. I'm sorry, you'll not change my opinion on this. If you think you can get a better deal elsewhere, do so bit don't undermine legitimate business in the guise of some moral campaign.
> 
> Just because someone else sells an item cheaper doesn't mean that is the right price nor does it mean that traders are too expensive.
> 
> If you don't like that then don't use our traders.


Mook,

I can appreciate you being a retail owner seeing this as being protective of what you believe. 

However, as people have said to defend their right to speak, isnt this a public place? 

No one here pays membership prices to join the forum, so its open to anyone, correct?

There are plenty of people who have banner men walking around, and advertise right next to other high street shops, its not rude, its how it is.

If you are treating this like a 'town' and the traders are the high street, what you are saying, is that you will not allow the public to freely spread the information of better prices than the local high street, for fear of them losing business?

Why should that concern you? You run the forum, you as you have said, are not paid for that, and you shouldn't be putting the traders interests as a priority.

They pay for the right to advertise and have a voice, and they do, do they pay for the right of protection from outside parties be it prices or anything else?

You are in effect taking away the right for people here to get pricing information from other members who may know of better sources.

Agreed cheaper is not better, nor is it 'correct', however, that is not your call to make to people is it? 

Protecting the members from scams is great, and the 50 post rule is a great one, but protecting paying traders from losing business because they don't feel the need to compete does not do anything positive for the community of owners who come here globally, for information and advice.

It makes everyone complaint, and lazy, and does not spur on change.

Anyway, just my 2¢ regarding that.

Not trying to paint the traders here with the same brush, not.at.all! There are 3 or 4 paying traders here who I have spoken with, and ive paid them good money with no hassle, but I pay them for their WORK and their expertise in a given field and I haven't had an issue with that. All of them have been honest and have told me along the lines of 'I can't get XYZ parts are good prices, please look around and if you can, get them elsewhere, do it, I will happily fit them'

That attitude goes a long long way. They know where they excel, and they know what people want them for.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> Matt, all of your comments work on the assumption that the traders can AFFORD to charge less and are making excessive profits. Knowing the costs of running your own business i'd argue that the margins they make are fair and whilst currys can afford to operate on turnover based rebates, traders don't have such luxuries.


Mike, if that is the case then your comments work on the assumption they can't afford to run without making large profits and you're willing at all costs to ensure a monopoly and they have a closed market in which to trade, I just can't see how that is for the greater good of the community?


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Lol!

This was a good discussion, but its moved to different topic. 

Have fun you guys.


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

NI-GTR said:


> I did do my research and do you know what I found? A minority of wingers and whiners who are the sort of people who go through life and find fault with everything and a majority of people perfectly happy with their tuners.
> 
> Those wingers probably upset waiters and get their food spat in and probably behave in a certain manner towards the tuners they eventually fall out with. Incompatible people who just annoy others and then wonder why they get bad service or ill treatment. I bet those who are in contact with your solicitors are all of the same ilk.
> 
> ...


We have a new tit in town


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

JTJUDGE said:


> We have a new tit in town


:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

NI-GTR said:


> I did do my research and do you know what I found? A minority of wingers and whiners who are the sort of people who go through life and find fault with everything and a majority of people perfectly happy with their tuners.
> 
> Those wingers probably upset waiters and get their food spat in and probably behave in a certain manner towards the tuners they eventually fall out with. Incompatible people who just annoy others and then wonder why they get bad service or ill treatment. I bet those who are in contact with your solicitors are all of the same ilk.
> 
> ...


Why did you mention me? What did I do wrong, please explain.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

JTJUDGE said:


> We have a new tit in town



agreed a huge tit, to make a statement that "buying second hand parts deems someone a scrounger" is definatley titish, stuck up ur own arse snobbery imo.


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

scoooby slayer said:


> agreed a huge tit, to make a statement that "buying second hand parts deems someone a scrounger" is definatley titish, stuck up ur own arse snobbery imo.


I wonder if he purchased his car new


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

JTJUDGE said:


> I wonder if he purchased his car new




:chuckle: lol


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

If that was a shot at me for buying used parts then you have more money then sense.

Please tell me which used parts I got btw.

Kthxbai.


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

Saifskyline said:


> If that was a shot at me for buying used parts then you have more money then sense.
> 
> Please tell me which used parts I got btw.
> 
> Kthxbai.


I was talking about the other guy


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

JTJUDGE said:


> I was talking about the other guy


Wasn't talking about you mate, it was the other guy who mentioned my name at the end of his essay he wrote.




NI-GTR said:


> I'll look forward to comparing my build to Saifskiylines when it is finished. You'll note I've not had to scrounge around for secondhand parts.
> Exciting times.


SHOTS FIRED. You spelled my name wrong by the way


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

What I can say is that Saif is using some quality parts in his engine and don't even go there trying to question the engine builders credentials  Not a jack of all trades but a specialist engine builder with many many years of experience and worked for some very big names in professional Motorsport not club racing lol. Don't throw cheap shots because he decided to go elsewhere.


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## NI-GTR (Jun 25, 2008)

Lol at you guys getting all excited. See what I mean by the same old faces. My point was MY secondhand parts are being sourced by my tuner. He will get the parts he needs from his sources saving me the worry of finding him bits from unknown sources and knowing he will be fitting bits he has supplied and is happy with, rather than giving me a shopping list of deferred responsibility. 

So, settle down.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

NI-GTR said:


> Lol at you guys getting all excited. See what I mean by the same old faces. My point was MY secondhand parts are being sourced by my tuner. He will get the parts he needs from his sources saving me the worry of finding him bits from unknown sources and knowing he will be fitting bits he has supplied and is happy with, rather than giving me a shopping list of deferred responsibility.
> 
> So, settle down.


But WHY did you mention me? Do you have a problem if I don't go through the tuners and traders to source my parts? I like sourcing on my own, and if I get stuck along the way then yes I will go through the traders. Honestly why do you think buying second hand parts is bad? Please have a look through my build thread properly from page 1, so you can see how many second hand parts I have used. You can't compare your car to mine as it's completely different, I am doing my thing and you are doing something else.


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

NI-GTR said:


> Lol at you guys getting all excited. See what I mean by the same old faces. My point was MY secondhand parts are being sourced by my tuner. He will get the parts he needs from his sources saving me the worry of finding him bits from unknown sources and knowing he will be fitting bits he has supplied and is happy with, rather than giving me a shopping list of deferred responsibility.
> 
> So, settle down.


What tuner do you use?


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## rogerdavis (Feb 16, 2008)

matt j said:


> I'm not going to publicise the conversations or messages I've been unfortunate enough to see and hear but at least 3 of the forum traders are price fixing second hand parts to keep prices artificially high. Mook says shop around but I fail to see how that will help any of the members.
> 
> Here's a thought:
> 
> Take 1 part required second hand, it can be anything. Now call all the forum traders for a price and see what you're quoted. Shouldn't take anyone too long to do and I'd be interested to see the results. Supply and demand???


Fair enough Matt I can understand your reasons not to.

I have also been there and got the T shirt we learn from our mistakes and in the future we look elsewhere and we are wise from it.

NI GTR you really are a numpty! How can you slag off people who have had issues and complained or vented their anger? Would you be happy if in the process of getting some work done by who ever it is, even if it is not car related let us say you have some building work done such as a new roof and you find it is leaking and the builder turns a blind eye and ignore your calls to put it right, would you take it on the chin and say it is not the builder fault? Nor complain?


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

Dan ep3 turbo said:


> What tuner do you use?


Bells auto would be funny


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Rain said:


> Mook,
> 
> I can appreciate you being a retail owner seeing this as being protective of what you believe.
> 
> ...


Some good points, well made.

TT


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

bells auto a good garage,built my engine 4 years ago and still running strong,600bhp 482ft lb of torque can't be bad.


simon


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## SklyaFett (Oct 18, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> No. This forum is a community and the traders are the local high street. You don't have to shop locally but by doing so you support the community. We can all buy online or in out of town superstores but just like the high street you are not allowed to open a pop up shop and wouldn't be welcome standing outside shops with a megaphone dissuading shoppers. I'm sorry, you'll not change my opinion on this. If you think you can get a better deal elsewhere, do so bit don't undermine legitimate business in the guise of some moral campaign.
> 
> Just because someone else sells an item cheaper doesn't mean that is the right price nor does it mean that traders are too expensive.
> 
> If you don't like that then don't use our traders.


Sorry mook, but I think this is utterly wrong. The forum wants to protect the traders and prices by they looks of it. Healthy competition is a good thing. Too long have the old traders been ripping the arse out of people. I'm starting to think this forum has run its course. It's starting to look more like a traders cash cow. I very very rarely buy off of the traders here. I may get the odd price to compair but most of the time I find it else place as most traders are a ****ing rip off. 

My 2p worth. An in all honesty, just to let the traders know. If you don't post a price I will defo not bother. If you too lazy or scared to, you should NOT be trading end of.
Also mook, I do have a lot of respect for you an the mods, but on this I think your judgment is clouded.

Jeff


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Some good points Jeff. I am a trader here but I try to keep prices fair also a lot of my products are low volume. The small setup which I have came out of my passion for racing and the experience I gained from my own race car and if I can help people out supply some new items and take a different approach to their tuning needs I see no harm in that. 

I do not sell parts that people can get cheaper on eBay or through RHD Japan/Nengun. This is not what I am about. 

I have always wondered why people have paid highs UK prices when you can buy from Japan, USA etc. ebay has some cracking deals genuine nissan items for half the price even once you have paid your shipping and taxes. 

I can understand some points that in business everyone looks to make as much profit as possible the problem is both the customer and the trader are both to blame. If a customer buys at inflated prices the trader would keep his prices high.

I am sure a lot of people would like to see prices come down also HKS Europe fix their prices they force everyone to have the same price as I found out when I wanted to buy the turbo oil restrictor.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

SklyaFett said:


> Sorry mook, but I think this is utterly wrong. The forum wants to protect the traders and prices by they looks of it. Healthy competition is a good thing. Too long have the old traders been ripping the arse out of people. I'm starting to think this forum has run its course. It's starting to look more like a traders cash cow. I very very rarely buy off of the traders here. I may get the odd price to compair but most of the time I find it else place as most traders are a ****ing rip off.
> 
> My 2p worth. An in all honesty, just to let the traders know. If you don't post a price I will defo not bother. If you too lazy or scared to, you should NOT be trading end of.
> Also mook, I do have a lot of respect for you an the mods, but on this I think your judgment is clouded.
> ...


I appreciate the feedback but look at it this way. There is nothing to stop a new Trader joining and posting lower prices. The competition would then have to react. The fact it hasn't happened suggests such a tactic isn't sustainable. Even FRracer will find, as his business grows, so will his costs and margins will need to cover this. It tends to be that only those businesses avoiding import duty and tax can offer much lower prices. It's a big market but nobody has ever tried to "break" it.

All I am saying is I won't support the demand for constantly lower prices and allow it to destroy businesses which are run in a reasonable manner.

Afterall, we then end up with no specialists and no traders.


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## gtroc (Jan 7, 2008)

Mookistar said:


> I appreciate the feedback but look at it this way. There is nothing to stop a new Trader joining and posting lower prices. The competition would then have to react. The fact it hasn't happened suggests such a tactic isn't sustainable. Even FRracer will find, as his business grows, so will his costs and margins will need to cover this. It tends to be that only those businesses avoiding import duty and tax can offer much lower prices. It's a big market but nobody has ever tried to "break" it.
> 
> All I am saying is I won't support the demand for constantly lower prices and allow it to destroy businesses which are run in a reasonable manner.
> 
> Afterall, we then end up with no specialists and no traders.



Or might end up with reasonably priced parts/traders


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Whos to say theyre Gna go bust just for showing their prices!?! Come on ffs all this drama just for them not to show them!!! Its obvious your against it from the start so really were all wasting our time trying to get you, a forum moderator, to put it to the traders our opinion. I cant believe how much this has gone on cos you 'feel' for them having had business yourself! As I said before, im a member and I buy for my car so yes I am out for a bargain! Will I cause the economy to crash by demanding traders show prices up front? Not any time soon mook!!!
WHY CANT THIS HAPPEN!?!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> Whos to say theyre Gna go bust just for showing their prices!?! Come on ffs all this drama just for them not to show them!!! Its obvious your against it from the start so really were all wasting our time trying to get you, a forum moderator, to put it to the traders our opinion. I cant believe how much this has gone on cos you 'feel' for them having had business yourself! As I said before, im a member and I buy for my car so yes I am out for a bargain! Will I cause the economy to crash by demanding traders show prices up front? Not any time soon mook!!!
> WHY CANT THIS HAPPEN!?!


because it doesn't NEED to happen. If you want a price, send a pm. If they all did it and it was a major issue then I might be more compliant, but it's not a huge issue and therefore does no need to be changed.

Simples.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i think the fact that this thread has gone on for so long ,just shows the feelings of the members on here,and it seems to be a general consensus that the traders show there prices up front with nothing to hide,


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

if its not a huge issue why have you been defending the action from the start,and if its not all the traders then bring the others in line.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

simon tompkins said:


> if its not a huge issue why have you been defending the action from the start,and if its not all the traders then bring the others in line.


I'm 'defending' because the status quo is fine and it doesn't need changing. The question was asked "why?" and I gave the answer which wasn't acceptable in a minorities eyes and it's run for 10 pages on various tangents. But the fact remains, traders don't have to post prices. Therefore, don't buy from those that don't show and do buy from those that do, assuming you don't think they are all trying to rip you off; )


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Bored


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

stevros said:


> Bored


Welcome to "me" 9 pages ago. :wavey:


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Weeeeeeellll head and brickwall mook!!


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

I've never said that any trader on here has attempted or tried to rip me off,i merely found it unfair that the mods jump on private sellers,for not stating a price (although they are the real members) and that some traders (not all) decide they want to be pmd,if this is not a big deal just ask your traders,and not all of them to put there price up for all to see,as you've said whats the big deal.


simon


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Your members are asking for this to happen, its easier and quicker than pm's and responses (if you get one)

Dammit drawn back in so soon!


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Mookistar said:


> I appreciate the feedback but look at it this way. There is nothing to stop a new Trader joining and posting lower prices. The competition would then have to react. The fact it hasn't happened suggests such a tactic isn't sustainable. Even FRracer will find, as his business grows, so will his costs and margins will need to cover this. It tends to be that only those businesses avoiding import duty and tax can offer much lower prices. It's a big market but nobody has ever tried to "break" it.
> 
> All I am saying is I won't support the demand for constantly lower prices and allow it to destroy businesses which are run in a reasonable manner.
> 
> Afterall, we then end up with no specialists and no traders.


If business grows I will still keep prices in check just manage over heads better. It would be hypocritical of me to dislike over inflated prices on parts and do the same. Parts would not be the main source of income even at present the parts side is only about 30% of Supertec, for the future I have other things in the pipeline and away from Skylines.

I can see Mook feels very strong about supporting retail businesses but with the advent of the Internet and being able to buy from anywhere in the world at the click of the button opens up competition thus giving consumers a choice. It is up to the retailers to change their approach or get swallowed up. Time waits for no man if your business model is dated you will feel the pinch and potentially go under.

We have seen many business go under over the years because they could not keep up and people were not prepared to pay into 50% more than what they could buy from the Internet.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

simon tompkins said:


> i think the fact that this thread has gone on for so long ,just shows the feelings of the members on here,and it seems to be a general consensus that the traders show there prices up front with nothing to hide,


It shows the feelings of a very, very small minority of forum members who, if you check, always pop up on threads such as these. Even if the traders did show their prices you would still get people spouting on about them being rip off merchants etc etc.


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## jambo 32gtr (Apr 1, 2009)

TAZZMAXX said:


> It shows the feelings of a very, very small minority of forum members who, if you check, always pop up on threads such as these. Even if the traders did show their prices you would still get people spouting on about them being rip off merchants etc etc.


A small minority that can bothered to speak up you mean, the rest probably fell like banging there head against a brick wall talking to you lot, much like this thread


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## KING (Jul 10, 2002)

*Prices*

I think we as the end user should PM traders for prices and create a thread/ data base and post our findings up with the trader details so it stays here for future reference and all of us can see who is charging for what otherwise there is no end to this thread. Thoughts??


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Its an idea, king but why go to all that bother when they can juat put a price at the end of their forsale threads!?! This is the whole point the traders wont consider. If theyre writing a post put the price in. Its easy, easier than pm's, easier than phone calls! Its just there in black and white! I just dont see the hardship/problem. Im amazed it is such a problem and its not Gna go further than the mods either


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Laughing at the sound of the Self Righteous Brothers:chuckle::chuckle:


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

It's not going to change, do what king says or buy online

The judge has spoken


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## gtroc (Jan 7, 2008)

Mookistar said:


> I'm 'defending' because the status quo is fine and it doesn't need changing. The question was asked "why?" and I gave the answer which wasn't acceptable in a minorities eyes and it's run for 10 pages on various tangents. But the fact remains, traders don't have to post prices. Therefore, don't buy from those that don't show and do buy from those that do, assuming you don't think they are all trying to rip you off; )


I think a voting system will determine if most members are with or against traders posting up their prices.

It can't be that hard to set one up.... To vote that it.

I don't think mods with go down that route as the results are obvious.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i really don't understand why the mods are so passionate about this,i thought they you were here to help the forum run smoothly,and support the forum users,it does seem a little bit like an us and them situation.which is a terrible shame,as i thought the whole point of the forum was for enthusiasts,run by enthusiasts


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

Power crazy obviously


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

It's a business and like any other, they're here to make money guys; they're defending their own income as any company would do. Secure furture interest over potentially upsetting just a few users who feel strongly enough to question the decision.

You could also think of it a bit like the YES voters, it's not going to change


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Erm, except I earn sweet FA for being a mod. 

Several pages ago I demonstrated that prices were on the vast, vast majority of threads in the trader for sale section. The only examples of not pricing were in the traders own forums, which is up to them.

I really don't see the issue, it's nothing to do with money.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> Erm, except I earn sweet FA for being a mod.


I meant the forum owners Toni, I very much doubt they'd allow you to make financial decisions on their behalf and therefore presume they have ok'd the stance.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

I manage the forum. The owners have no input whatsoever.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> I manage the forum. The owners have no input whatsoever.


So you're an employee?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Not as admin. Ive managed this site in my own time as an enthusiast for over 5 years and do not get paid for doing so.


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## simon tompkins (Aug 14, 2005)

i for one think the mods do a great job,and for this reason alone,seeing as we've reached a deadlock, i shall not post on this thread again,but thanks for all of your opinions and views.


simon


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Mookistar said:


> Not as admin. Ive managed this site in my own time as an enthusiast for over 5 years and do not get paid for doing so.


With threads line this droning on for 12 pages (so far) you must wonder why sometimes...

Having looked in the trade parts for sale section and seen prices on just about everything I can't see the issue.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Every week I receive two or three machine tool sales catalogues that are mainly populated by dealer adverts and the majority of machines are POA. It's no big deal as, if you're a serious buyer, you'll pick the phone up and call them. I don't see what happens here as any different.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

CT17 said:


> With threads line this droning on for 12 pages (so far) you must wonder why sometimes...
> 
> .


The sad thing is I've never been dictatorial and know that you can't please all of the people all of the time but I've been doing it long enough to know where the balance lies. So on threads like this I'll explain my actions and listen to all feedback where I know on a lot of other sites threads like this would just just get shit down and even bans get handed out. 

Diplomacy is a difficult path to tread and I've been walking it for a long time. 

So, I'll listen, consult, converse and make changes where relevant but as Rich says, in this instance, there really isn't a problem. 

So far as "protecting the traders" goes, again I've explained my reasons and know some people won't like them but again I am satisfied that the balance I have found over the last ten years on this site, is the right one.


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## nozza1 (Jan 13, 2007)

I agree with the sentiment that final prices should be put up.

I have had experiences with a trader that l wont mention, but pretty much everyone will know who l am talking about  where they give a ball park figure publicly, then privately a £100/200 is added to the final price, this is no exaggeration.
Spewing the usual currency fluctuation/extortionate shipping rates bullshit.

l thought the GTROC was all about the benefit of us owners?

The fact that Mook and others have done unpaid work for the forum which is greatly appreciated and the whole point (forum is a community helping each other out) , why should we held with our pants down by some of the traders.
Not saying they shouldn't make a profit, but they should be looking after us surely, no?

A vote sounds a good idea, but will the mods take on the final judgement?


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

_Hmmm.... A bit late to the party but just going by my own personal experiences on here since I joined up :- _

Over the years I've used the forum search function as much as possible for information on who are the big _"Go to"_ Traders and quality Workshops for _"XYZ"_ specifically to read some essential feedback from other Skyline Owners who'd bought such products and used said Suppliers/Tuners/Manufacturers, etc, etc....

I wanted expert advice so came to the GTROC to get it!

This usually results in nothing but pages and pages of fully endorsed glowing feedback to read and all in the GT-R World is 100% sweet and rosey from my once novice and naive eyes. So I see a forum advert from a long time forum supporter offering the exact parts or services I'd like for my own vehicle, Read the bit saying _"PM for prices"_....So quickly send off as message asking for exactly that.

Then wait, wait again....and wait some more till I'm out of patience waiting days or even weeks later!

Yes, I know these people are very busy but I've pm'd a few of the Traders on here now _(which are all still in my message folder)_ after reading their online ads and I've *NEVER*...not even once...had a response from a single one of them via this forum!!!

Thinking that I must be impolite or written my private message like a complete time wasting numpty or something, I've been left feeling totally confused as to why I seem to have just been ignored. Others too seem to have encountered this similar problem with some of this forums Traders. 

So taking some advice from the select group of Members on here who have actually had successful dealings with said company's....I've then taken even more time to phone up for prices or services instead. This route has not gone well for me either because *"IF"* and its a big if, I was indeed lucky enough to actually make contact with a human being on the other end of the phone _(which is rare)_ to be arrogantly told the item was either sold ages ago or is discontinued and no longer available from them anymore. BUGGER!!!

Any phone messages I've left are just like the PM's I've sent and have never been responded to either, What a waste of time and effort eh!

_From my point of view, these select group of industrialists must be doing absolutely fantastically business wise from the customers they've already got that they don't need anyone new like me to buy their products or use their services because they appear to be disinterested in acquiring any new clientele?!_

Going to national car shows like Japfest for instance or meeting up for other days out organised by other Skyline based forums or clubs have put me into contact with others who have also encountered poor service like I have experienced with numerous Traders, most if not all of them are on or were on the GTROC forum.

This forum continually seems to fully endorse all of its Traders but if any slightly negative posts or opinions are raised then these are quickly either locked or deleted to keep the illusion of a perfect Trading company intact. Why do this Mods? Its not really benefiting me or ultimately helping me to make important decisions and fully enjoy my GT-R ownership experience!

Any feedback from disgruntled customers or potential customers like myself are only highlighting defective areas where these Traders either need to spend some time improving their communications or other services and these folks can only get better when they eventually acknowledge that they know where they might be potentially going wrong from the consumers point of view. 

This forum is Ok I suppose as car forums go but in my honest opinion its a bit one sided as to interpreting and policing the _"Rules"_ and for that reason it could be much, much better if this imbalance was addressed.



That's my rant over for now....HTH!


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Your rant digressed at the end.

The forum has made an effort to keep topics about trader experiences alive as long as both side of the story can be aired, or there is no pending legal action. 

At least from a few I have seen and remember.


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