# How safe is Stage 3 tune?



## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

Looking into upgrades...was initially thinking stage 2 but realising I only need intakes and a remap tweak to go stage 3, i'm inclined to do that. 

It makes me a little nervous though knowing that the injectors are totally maxxed out at this point? Does this make it more susceptible to failure at this point than say stage 1/2? Is it worth the extra 10bhp and a bit of induction noise? Or is stage 2 a much safer place to be?

Thanks.

Dean.


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## jrattan (Oct 23, 2014)

I know I can't go stage 3 cos injectors won't handle it. I was told that my stock injectors were already near their limit and they wouldn't be able to handle larger intakes. I'm currently stage 2 and will go straight to 4 when the time comes. And I also think that's why you don't see many people running stage 3.
litchfields won't let you drive out unless the car is safe and it's all within their limits.


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## Sustanon250 (Feb 3, 2016)

I'd just save for stage 4.25; the car really comes alive at this level , I'd go as far as saying stage 4.25 is almost perfect for road use.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

To Be Totally Honest, and not trying to be a prat, But is ANY stage tune truly SAFE?? As soon as you take the car outside the manufacturers specification, Aren't you taking a risk?

Currently I'm at stage 4.25.. ha ha................ Just a thought tho.


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## Johnny G (Aug 10, 2012)

Chronos said:


> To Be Totally Honest, and not trying to be a prat, But is ANY stage tune truly SAFE?? As soon as you take the car outside the manufacturers specification, Aren't you taking a risk?
> 
> Currently I'm at stage 4.25.. ha ha................ Just a thought tho.


You're not wrong. 
Similarly, I'm at 4.25 and have been for 30,000 miles now


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Am guessing Nissan deem the Nismo power as safe so going up to that bhp / torque should be a fairly safe bet - quite a step up for a early car


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

You might as well lay out for injectors now and go straight to stage 4 otherwise you'll be paying for injectors and remap next time! 

These cars are built with a lot of headroom, it's not the now that will Suffer for the work done it will be the longevity of the engine, so if Nissan designed the engine to last 80k miles on full tilt then it will just last less than that lol


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Engine failures aren't particularly common, or atleast aren't openly reported.

Stage 2 and 3 will be similar. Stage 4 presents a greater opportunity for higher torque levels which is what will kill the car. 

Running 600lbft I think you would be unlucky to lose a rod. 650lbft is pushing it.

As for the need for injectors. You need to do the following things:
- make yourself a strong cup of tea
- look at your bank statements
- consider your aversion to jail time

And then realistically weigh up your plans for the car and the modding trail. If you're going futher then do it all at the same time otherwise you will just pay for multiple mapping sessions. With negligable power / feel gains from stage 2 to 3 it's simply wasted money.

It is worth noting however, you could run downpipes and intakes on stock injectors, you would just be limited by how much boost you can run. The injectors at 90% duty will be fine, you just won't be able to go any further. 

If you just want the noise then go ahead and knock yourself out.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

All of the above is true but everyone knows that if you are goin. As far as stage 3 you're simply not going to stop missing there are you, let's be honest..... You'll get used to the power thinks it's slow, mod it again, get used to the power, mod it again...... Aaaaaaaand repeat!!!


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

stage 1 (with Y pipe) and then stage 4.25 are the natural stopping points. 

The cost / change in character of the car beyond these points are significant steps.


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## C5ale (Jul 28, 2015)

Just gone straight from stage 1 to stage 4.25 with a cooler, can honestly say the car feels so much more responsive and only running a base map with 1 bar of boost so far! Personally I didn't bother with other stages as I knew I would end up at 4.25 (or above) so made sense to spec the car for future upgrades, ie - using forge dominator, 3" turbo inlets and 102mm


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Chronos said:


> To Be Totally Honest, and not trying to be a prat, But is ANY stage tune truly SAFE?? As soon as you take the car outside the manufacturers specification, Aren't you taking a risk?
> 
> Currently I'm at stage 4.25.. ha ha................ Just a thought tho.


Even when standard things aren't 'safe'. The only protection you have is a warranty perhaps.

As long as the mods are done correctly and a known factor then it's more about how you (or the previous owner/s) treat the car.


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

Chronos said:


> To Be Totally Honest, and not trying to be a prat, But is ANY stage tune truly SAFE?? As soon as you take the car outside the manufacturers specification, Aren't you taking a risk?
> 
> Currently I'm at stage 4.25.. ha ha................ Just a thought tho.


Hmm, I have always been under the impression that stage 1 on a car was a safe bet. It may be a bit different in this case as u change the Y-pipe as part of stage 1. 

Normally a stage 1 tune would be leaving the car standard and remapping the engine to its real potential as when cars leave the factory they are usually somewhat de-tuned to meet certain regulations etc...? And to also make the engines more compatible with extreme temperatures?

Stage 3 is a bit different as it feels like there's a high(er) potential for catastrophic failure :/ Something I really dont want to risk.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

Pointless question really..... A lot of work and testing has gone in to these cars, 

1: by Nissan to ensure the car is released with enough overhead in the car to make it work for a lifetime without catastrophic fail if left standard and 
2: by the tuners to ensure the car you get back is safe and running well within the cars limitations because they don't want any shitty come back from it nor do they need to build a bad reputation for shitty work

Ergo you car will be safe provided you

1: have the work done by a reputable tuner
2: carry out the correct maintenance at the right time 
3: generally look after your car and have some mechanical sympathy


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

Stealth69 said:


> Pointless question really..... A lot of work and testing has gone in to these cars,
> 
> 1: by Nissan to ensure the car is released with enough overhead in the car to make it work for a lifetime without catastrophic fail if left standard and
> 2: by the tuners to ensure the car you get back is safe and running well within the cars limitations because they don't want any shitty come back from it nor do they need to build a bad reputation for shitty work
> ...


Hmmm I disagree.

If I run Injectors at the max....if they start to underpeform over time due to age/wear then I have no headroom to allow for that wear? Or do you think they allow for that also?

Not necessarily GTR problem but:

Excessive wear, ie. clutch parts etc...

APR stage 1 on my old TT-RS, while a safe tune, ate the clutch and started slipping.

Some states of tune will have higher fail rates than other...if stage 3 has a much higher potential of failure than stage 2, i'd want to know...as I dont think it would be wrth the extra 10bhp?

EDIT TO ADD: I've seen a guy melt a piston on his 400bhp impreza....the reason were that the injectors hadn't been upto the job - remapped by one of the most respected mappers in the impreza scene - so I think your argument is flawed :/


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## jrattan (Oct 23, 2014)

smoggy12345 said:


> Hmmm I disagree.
> 
> If I run Injectors at the max....if they start to underpeform over time due to age/wear then I have no headroom to allow for that wear? Or do you think they allow for that also?
> 
> ...




Like stealth said - a reputable tuner won't let a car leave their shop without it being 'safe'. They'll ensure that it can perform at that level of tune reasonably. I know my car took two days to tune for that very reason. That doesn't mean it'll be trouble free but it should be unlikely in most cases.


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

C5ale said:


> Just gone straight from stage 1 to stage 4.25 with a cooler, can honestly say the car feels so much more responsive and only running a base map with 1 bar of boost so far! Personally I didn't bother with other stages as I knew I would end up at 4.25 (or above) so made sense to spec the car for future upgrades, ie - using forge dominator, 3" turbo inlets and 102mm


Never fully decatted a car - so stage 3 is probs highest I would go. I just CBA with the MOT hassle - could go down the sports cat route but they're Expensive and I don't want to spend a fortune on the car. Its a very early 09 so don't want to throw too much at it or I could have warranted buying a MY10 with Nav etc.... which would make more sense IMO?


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

jrattan said:


> Like stealth said - a reputable tuner won't let a car leave their shop without it being 'safe'. They'll ensure that it can perform at that level of tune reasonably. I know my car took two days to tune for that very reason. That doesn't mean it'll be trouble free but it should be unlikely in most cases.


Thats my point, 

He was renowned as the best in the business and he mapped the car and thought it was safe? So don't know wether it was a bad map or a failing part.

Bottom line is though that it obviously was considerably less safe than having a map which didn't max out the injectors.


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## jrattan (Oct 23, 2014)

smoggy12345 said:


> Thats my point,
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Cars are machines and inevitably can go wrong. Whether it's a failed part, a bad tune or poor ownership (eg ragging it while cold) is up for debate.
Just enjoy it while it works I guess?! My VW Golf 1.4L gearbox went - it wasn't tuned and never red lined... just part of car ownership


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

smoggy12345 said:


> Hmmm I disagree.
> 
> If I run Injectors at the max....if they start to underpeform over time due to age/wear then I have no headroom to allow for that wear? Or do you think they allow for that also?
> 
> ...



That my point exactly....... If your injectors are that close to the edge then your car is not safely mapped and your tuner should be telling you that, so my arguement stands...... A good tune is going to be safe! 

As for your mates Impreza...... It's not exactly hard to blow a Subaru to bits, I have blown three of them up, one was 350bhp Sti 3, a 420ish bhp Sti 7 (actually that one caught fire and burnt to death) and a 333bhp P1...... Imprezas are ****y engines and not a good example lol let me guess he melted piston 3 right? The one that sits right beside a 4million degree turbo and is also the last piston in the rail to get fuel and is known for being a problem and running lean on that bank ***128521;

I've seen standard uk imprezas rattle their bottom end....... Nature of the beast! 

Your TT-ra ate the clutches but was any tuning done on the gearbox? Did they adjust clutch pressures, touch points etc etc to account for the extra power, reduce slip on the clutches etc 

Like I say, it's all down to a good safe proper job on the tuners part. 

You are right to be weary but these are all common stages of tune and have been tested and used for around 7-8 years, how many GT-R's have you read about with blown engines at these stages? (Ignore the very early imports as they had their own issues)


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## skylineboi (Feb 21, 2016)

"Thats my point, He was renowned as the best in the business and he mapped the car and thought it was safe? So don't know wether it was a bad map or a failing part. Bottom line is though that it obviously was considerably less safe than having a map which didn't max out the injectors."

If he really was the best he would know that injectors should never go above 80% duty cycle. 80% is the typical threshold for what is considered for the purpose of wear and tear and the variations in octane, quality, and ethanol level of fuel.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

^ circular argument


The injectors wont wear out. They work of they dont. If they dont then its irrelevant what duty they are running at. 

Stage 3 is not considered significantly high. It's the torque figure you need to worry about. Any failures you get at stage three are just as likely to happen at stage one.

If the question was can I run 800bhp then there is a lot to consider. The question of if 600bhp and c 550lbft of torque is ok is a mute point. Yes it is (outside of any general breakages your car will face anyway).


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Sorry to bump an old post, but I've read about 2-3 engine failures in 4.25 cars, from 1009-10 era. Really I wanted a standard car but one has come up as a 4.25 that's worth considering. Anyone had any problems like this?


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

tonigmr2 said:


> Sorry to bump an old post, but I've read about 2-3 engine failures in 4.25 cars, from 1009-10 era. Really I wanted a standard car but one has come up as a 4.25 that's worth considering. Anyone had any problems like this?


I think you know the answer to this one Toni.

There's no magical barrier after which failures occur. It's a simple equation of increasing risk.

More torque and power equals increased risk of component failure. These failures still happen to standard cars, just at a lesser rate.

How the car has been used and cared for will make affect those risks for obvious reasons.

At the end of the day you're talking about buying a 6-7 year old car. It's a risk you'll have to take regardless of the level of tune in my opinion.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

If you have found a car you like you can drop the boost simple enough using the steering wheel buttons or have it mapped to a tamer lever that puts you in a comfort zone


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

tonigmr2 said:


> Sorry to bump an old post, but I've read about 2-3 engine failures in 4.25 cars, from 1009-10 era. Really I wanted a standard car but one has come up as a 4.25 that's worth considering. Anyone had any problems like this?


check mine that blew recently here with pictures -
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/479825-ouch.html

In my case I bought the car on 27k and had it stage 4'd within a month, and 2 years later it blew on stage 4.25 at 52k (I think personally rods are bending slowly on well driven high tuned R35s!), done about 4 tracks days as well.

No warning , no power loss, no change in drive, just bang! Months and months of hurt, trying to locate another NON STOLEN engine = failed. a new engine from nissan is 20k+VAT and it's still just a stock engine! , so in the end tried to locate a new block, was very hard and took even more months, acspeedtech managed to get me a new one from nissan = win, and its currently being rebuilt, Which as you can imagine is a massive job, so takes more time as well. Cost to rebuild engine forged, 16-20k depending on parts you choose, my rebuild is within this price range. I have a warranty offsetting some of the cost as well. You have to remember, if the engine blows its not just the block and rods/pistons you need, it depends what it breaks when the rod makes an escape, in my case it destroyed the crank, cyclinder head and sump assembly, and these parts alone, are £1.5-3k EACH!

SO if I knew what i know now.. I'd have forged soon as I went stage 4+ Its a lot cheaper if the engine is still intact! (between 7k-10k)and LOTS less bloody hassle and heartbreak!


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

That does put me off quite a lot!

Trouble is even buying a 'standard' car it might've been tuned in the past. Maybe I need to buy new, after a bit more saving.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

Don't take Chronos car as a hard example of the car, he does use his as it "designed to be used" LOL looked after but hammered as well


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

tonigmr2 said:


> That does put me off quite a lot!
> Trouble is even buying a 'standard' car it might've been tuned in the past. Maybe I need to buy new, after a bit more saving.


Well you wanted some knowledge on it, and I'm just being honest and not trying to scare, i'd rather people learned from my pain, and maybe cover themselves in the future, or know what can happen.

Personally I like the stage 4+ power, and would buy one already forged. Or save a bit more and if its stage 4+ get it forged for peace of mind.

theres a black R35 for sale on here somewhere, thats already forged.



Stealth69 said:


> Don't take Chronos car as a hard example of the car, he does use his as it "designed to be used" LOL looked after but hammered as well


Yes my car is supremely babied looked after, But she does get used as intended as well.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Well as usual I'm awkward and want a certain colour and year, it just happens this one is 4.25 and on 18K miles. Will ponder!


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

get the car year you want in ay colour and then get Paul to wrap it


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Nope not a fan of wraps, sorry!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Who did the stage 4.25 Toni?

How long has it been running that tune?

Is it ecutek? If so which version was the tune first introduced on?

All the above affect the quality of the mapping and therefore change the risk you are taking.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

tonigmr2 said:


> Nope not a fan of wraps, sorry!


Well aren't you just an awkward little flower


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Stealth69 said:


> Well aren't you just an awkward little flower


Thought that said something else then


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Yes, so blah!

Don't know Admantium, will ask those questions when I go see.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

on a 911-997 3.8S some Porsche independents say that you will get bore scoring before 100K miles on a un-modified engine...we are so used to Nissan reliability 

to quote Iain L. "its not just the tune but how the car has been driven"

he implied my very old R35 felt tight and un-thrashed last time he drove it. So Toni if you can assess the seller and how he drove it....


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Right it's an SVM conversion and has been on the car less than 3K miles. Seller is well known and has a good rep. So I will go look.


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Is it the colour you want though???


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Wouldn't have even started conversation if it wasn't


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## KentGTR94 (Dec 20, 2016)

Kaizer motor in Kent are selling there stage 4 GTR, fully forged and in mint condition. Had I known about the car I would have got it myself before purchasing my one ?


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> Right it's an SVM conversion and has been on the car less than 3K miles. Seller is well known and has a good rep. So I will go look.




Did you view it Toni?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Funnily enough going today.:chuckle:


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Keep us posted


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## HUGHS1E (Jan 20, 2015)

If your worried about it going pop then your best getting a car with warranty or full nhpc service history then getting a warranty through an indie like lithchfields who will cover the car at stage 4.25. In the short term that would be cheaper than a built engine and box with still no warranty. In the tvr network when they build an engine they give it a 5year 100,000mile warranty which can justify the build but there will be built engines and boxes that have given up so does it really add peace of mind?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I liked the car, has a Miktek exhaust which is meh, but just pondering now. Going to look at a couple more.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> I liked the car, has a Miktek exhaust which is meh, but just pondering now. Going to look at a couple more.




The Miltek is the perfect sound level if you want to talk to passengers.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

It hasn't got a good rep in GT86 land where they keep cracking.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Well in gtr land they are probably the most popular exhaust and I've never heard of one cracking.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Obviously a better design on GTRs!


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> It hasn't got a good rep in GT86 land where they keep cracking.




Never heard of one cracking. Miltek is one of the biggest names in performance exhausts so I think more owners on here would of suffered that problem if it was a common issue


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

One of my good friends is on her third Miltek on her GT86, 2nd and 3rd under the lifetime warranty. If she'd sold the car they wouldn't have replaced it! She's far from the only one. 

I also didn't think it was very pretty:chuckle: (sorry, girl remember!)


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Must be a fault known to the GT86 as I don't think I've seen a single 35 owner with an issue.

I would go for it if you really want a 35 as there are so few around in your choice of colour.

I think they are all pretty!


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Got two more to see, another titanium which is stock but has had a lot of owners, and one another colour altogether....


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> Got two more to see, another titanium which is stock but has had a lot of owners, and one another colour altogether....




Standard colour as I know you don't like wraps?


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

R36 will be out by the time you've chosen a car


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

It's a good time to buy as a new model emerges


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

I've seen plenty of Miltek exhausted R35s and can't say I like that system. Y-pipe is an odd design and the tailpipes stick out at a incongruous angle imho. Only issue I've heard with them was some early owners complaining of what appeared to be gases exiting from one side only.


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