# Best turbo for Stage 5? 750hp?



## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi, 

After driving 4.25 for a few months. I'm thinking about going to the next stage.

It will still be on a 2012 stock engine and trans.


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

Lots of options at lots of diffent price points. Do you have a tuner you already use? If yes ask and see what they recomend for your needs, if not where in country are you?


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## GOGO SPEED (Jul 8, 2016)

i think you should go 6758 linney


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

I wouldn't bother unless you build the engine and go to 750ftlbs. You will be running the same torque as you are now, which really is what gives you that kick in the back!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I agree.

If you absolutely must do it, I'd use it as the first stage of something bigger that's a long term plan then get the Litchfield manifold efr 6758.

They will always be worth excellent money if you change your mind and decide to sell.


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## dtox (Sep 21, 2009)

I'll let you know,

I'm exactly they same, MY12 with stock engine but I bought some LM700 turbos and AC intercooler with uprated fuel pumps so will let you know if it is any better.

The torque should hold for longer due to the intercooler and turbos but not expecting a great amount like from stock to stage 4.25.

where abouts do you live if its near AC speedtech or down to Cornwall I could pop by once it's done so you can see the difference


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

You could just get turbo Technics to do some 6758 on std cores and cut out any middle men jacking the price up


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Skint said:


> You could just get turbo Technics to do some 6758 on std cores and cut out any middle men jacking the price up


Interesting, whats the price without the middle man?


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

vxrcymru said:


> I wouldn't bother unless you build the engine and go to 750ftlbs. You will be running the same torque as you are now, which really is what gives you that kick in the back!


By that token, Honda VTEC's and indeed all variable cam development work was a complete waste of time as it only yields performance at high RPM.

The "shove in the back" will be more pronounced in a car operating at 750bhp at 7000rpm (563 lbft) than a car operating at 850lbft at 4500 rpm (640bhp).

I've been through this exact process, ended up with the Vspec style turbos with billet wheels. They produce 760bhp and are maxed out at that and I'm on a stock engine and trans. I'm not planning on going any further and the extra bhp is definitely noticeable above stage 4, however it's probably not financially sensible.

I did it before the EFR's were out, and as above if you do it go for the EFR's as you have headroom to push on if you want to.

Having said that, to push further you'd need to forge the engine which means it comes out again so if you could get a cheap set of v-spec style turbo's that's probably a decent choice. You'll see very little difference on a stock engine and trans between the V-spec and EFR's but could see a huge price difference depending on where you buy them.

If you can get the EFR's within £1500-2000 of the V-specs then go for them, otherswise I'd just stick some Vspec style in.


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

dtox said:


> I'll let you know,
> 
> I'm exactly they same, MY12 with stock engine but I bought some LM700 turbos and AC intercooler with uprated fuel pumps so will let you know if it is any better.
> 
> ...



That would be great. Im based in West London though.

I just feel power tails off towards the end and not to redline. 

I was thinking of getting the AMS intercooler but is more cost effective to buy the Litchfield Superstock intercooler for 1k brand new.


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

borat52 said:


> By that token, Honda VTEC's and indeed all variable cam development work was a complete waste of time as it only yields performance at high RPM.
> 
> The "shove in the back" will be more pronounced in a car operating at 750bhp at 7000rpm (563 lbft) than a car operating at 850lbft at 4500 rpm (640bhp).
> 
> ...



I was thinking EFR's.


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## motors (Mar 14, 2013)

litchfield LM700 are really good I made 768bhp 628lbft torque if you want headroom go 6158 but they are double the price


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

motors said:


> litchfield LM700 are really good I made 768bhp 628lbft torque if you want headroom go 6158 but they are double the price


Lm700, lovely up top, lag in normal use (junctions, roundabouts, etc.).
If I was doing 4.5+ again then it would be ERFs for me.
Costs 1-2k to have the engine out which is 25% of the cost of forging so I'd do that at the same time, up the torque to 700 and fix when the gearbox reveals the weak point then go to 750 torques.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Getting turbo technics to shoe horn the efr core into the stock housing is half the job and your turbos need to donate parts. It means having your engine out for at least a week whilst they figure out what needs doing.


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## C5ale (Jul 28, 2015)

Adamantium said:


> Getting turbo technics to shoe horn the efr core into the stock housing is half the job and your turbos need to donate parts. It means having your engine out for at least a week whilst they figure out what needs doing.


Turbo technics have already done some for me - never used them as my plans changed and sold them on. Mine where used as development ones so they now have the necessary tools and knowledge to do them. Couldn't comment on turn around time or price as mine where the first they'd done so it took a while to develop the specials tools needed to complete the process. As far as I'm aware a certain well known tuner is using them too for the hybrid 6758 conversion, if anyone's thinking of using them speak to ryan @ turbo technics.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Or speak to Iain at Litchfields, the first person in the world who pioneered the use of the efr in the R35 that everyone is now following.

If getting a conversion done, go with turbo dynamics, not turbo techics. Turbo dynamics make them for both Litchfield and Linney.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

How much do litchfields or linney charge?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Check their websites.

I think they do a core exchange which means car won't be off the road.

I'd still go for the full Litchfield manifold kit, but that's me. It's a chunk more money but spools faster and can support 1000bhp with stock spool. Only consider if you think you'll go further in the future.


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## C5ale (Jul 28, 2015)

Adamantium said:


> Check their websites.
> 
> I think they do a core exchange which means car won't be off the road.
> 
> I'd still go for the full Litchfield manifold kit, but that's me. It's a chunk more money but spools faster and can support 1000bhp with stock spool. Only consider if you think you'll go further in the future.


Whats the limit on the EFR 6758 full manifold kit with a fully built engine?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

970-1000 with everything supporting. Safe 950, 1000 at a push.

Perfect choice for drivability at the bottom and response but can just about allow that ultimate 4 figure bragging right that so many want!

Crucially turbo can be switched for 7163 on the same manifold if you want an assured 1000+ number. Does cost a little low down and in response but not a huge amount.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Adamantium said:


> Check their websites.
> 
> I think they do a core exchange which means car won't be off the road.
> 
> I'd still go for the full Litchfield manifold kit, but that's me. It's a chunk more money but spools faster and can support 1000bhp with stock spool. Only consider if you think you'll go further in the future.


Just going off Litchfield's website the LM800's with trick manifolds are £9114 incl VAT. Given the Spec V's (LM700) are £3500 then you're looking at a £5600 premium for those particular EFR's.

Now given stage 4.25-> stage 4.5 (LM700's) as a package is £6254 fitted at Litchfield you face a choice of £6254 (LM700) vs £11800 (LM800). If you're not forging I'm not sure that stacks up as you'll be making somewhere around 750-800bhp with both.

I agree they are incredible pieces of engineering but at that price differential you're probably better off just going for a stage 4.5 then replacing the turbo's at a later date if that's what you wish and selling off the LM700's. 

No idea what Litchfields price on the EFR's is without the nice manifolds but linney have them for around £5k incl VAT. At that price I'd go for them over the LM700's.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Agree with borat, if you have no further goals, don't go for the manifolds.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> 970-1000 with everything supporting. Safe 950, 1000 at a push.
> Perfect choice for drivability at the bottom and response but can just about allow that ultimate 4 figure bragging right that so many want!
> Crucially turbo can be switched for 7163 on the same manifold if you want an assured 1000+ number. Does cost a little low down and in response but not a huge amount.


So how much do you actually lose low down having 7163 instead of 6758, but on the flipside how much more do you gain top end with 7163 over 6758?

I'd like to see dyno graphs of both turbo's, on a similar build car to compare... In an ideal world.

thanks


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

It's about 300 rpm at the bottom, which is barely noticeable versus about 200bhp at the top.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Adamantium said:


> It's about 300 rpm at the bottom, which is barely noticeable versus about 200bhp at the top.


That is absolutely incredible.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> It's about 300 rpm at the bottom, which is barely noticeable versus about 200bhp at the top.


so why don't more people go for 7163, most seem to have 6758. Isn't the price difference between the 2 turbos only about 1k?? Personally I'd rather have the extra 200 horses up top!

thanks, interesting info!


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

I will just throw a HKS gt800 kit into the mix @ £6k have seen them at £5300 in japan so maybe a bit less


https://www.nengun.com/hks/hks-gt80...MIqtWrmKWQ1QIVjKntCh0d-gauEAYYASABEgJ0B_D_BwE


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## C5ale (Jul 28, 2015)

Chronos said:


> Adamantium said:
> 
> 
> > It's about 300 rpm at the bottom, which is barely noticeable versus about 200bhp at the top.
> ...


I've got the same dilemma at the moment, my engines at Iain's getting having a sport rebuild and I'm in two minds about which turbo/manifold kit to use??!? I want super quick spool but also want to break the 4 figure mark...


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> Or speak to Iain at Litchfields, the first person in the world who pioneered the use of the efr in the R35 that everyone is now following.
> 
> If getting a conversion done, go with turbo dynamics, not turbo techics. Turbo dynamics make them for both Litchfield and Linney.


ok email back from turbo dynamics, shame they won't sell direct, might have saved us a few pennies 



> Good Morning,
> Thanks for your enquiry. Our EFR spec units are available for purchase from either Litchfield Motors or Linney Tuning, both companies should have stock and can advise on pricing based on your exact requirements.
> 
> Kind Regards
> ...


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## C5ale (Jul 28, 2015)

Chronos said:


> Adamantium said:
> 
> 
> > Or speak to Iain at Litchfields, the first person in the world who pioneered the use of the efr in the R35 that everyone is now following.
> ...


That's why I used turbo technics in end.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

These conversions are v/pricey ( putting it nicely ) from the tuners - you only have to buy new center core sections guessing around £600 each then a a bit of machining on the housings i would guess at @ £500 if that , would be interesting what turbo technics sell them for


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

C5ale said:


> That's why I used turbo technics in end.


Oks, i've emailed them as well now.. thanks.



terry lloyd said:


> These conversions are v/pricey ( putting it nicely ) from the tuners - you only have to buy new center core sections guessing around £600 each then a a bit of machining on the housings i would guess at @ £500 if that , would be interesting what turbo technics sell them for


Well linneys 6758 are -
http://www.linneytuning.com/product/stage-4-950r-borgwarner-efr-6758/

$5,400.00 so thats about £4200 not sure if VAT is on top....+ core fee i think, so thats another 1k or you old turbos? Is that how it works?


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Pretty sure he is plus vat plus cores , this is why i put the hks kit in the mix - comes with better manifolds, external wastegates, top spec turbos, downpipes, turbo inlets all the hardware and no exchange cores , seen these kits make @850hp with a built engine, downtune it for a stock block, all this probably cheaper than when you add in inlets and downpipes to the efrs


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

terry lloyd said:


> Pretty sure he is plus vat plus cores , this is why i put the hks kit in the mix - comes with better manifolds, external wastegates, top spec turbos, downpipes, turbo inlets all the hardware and no exchange cores , seen these kits make @850hp with a built engine, downtune it for a stock block, all this probably cheaper than when you add in inlets and downpipes to the efrs


do they spool and pull like the EFR's tho...


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

edit wrong figure entered and a comparison - graph looks good big torque at 3500rpm vs Litchfield manifold EFR6758's


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Think turbo Technics charge 3200 + Vat retail, it was a few weeks ago when I enquirer.

Litchfields charge?


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Forget Garrett based turbo's, they are not in the same league as efr's

For people who have'nt been in a car equipped with efr turbo's they will find there like night and day in comparison


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

There's also the AAM competition set up to consider


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## GTRNICK (Apr 29, 2005)

I am toying with the idea of a twin EFR 7163 for my RB30 skyline. 

I am currently using a big single EFR 9180....like others have stated in this thread there is nothing that comes close to the spool/power band and versatility of the EFR's they are in a league of their own.

I have looked at other big single options which is non applicable to the R35 but again after numerous hours of research there is nothing out there that competes.

So if I do make the jump to twin I have a choice of 6258, 6758 or 7163.

After using an EFR and understanding how they work and drive on the road I personally would pick the 7163 as you are gaining a massive power potential for very little loss in spool and we are talking a few hundred RPM's at the most.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

7163 and 6758 are nigh on the same price.

And last time i checked, the hks kit used seriously old turbos in their kit. Possibly even sleeve bearing turbos. Could be wrong though.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> 7163 and 6758 are nigh on the same price.
> 
> And last time i checked, the hks kit used seriously old turbos in their kit. Possibly even sleeve bearing turbos. Could be wrong though.


Just added a efr graph to the HKS one - seems like these seriously old HKS turbo,s do very well then


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Terry,

1. You know full well you can't compare graphs from different cars, never mind different dynos.

2. Power runs are done at wide open throttle, they don't show transient throttle response performance which is a key point where efr shines

3. Even the same car run twice on the same dyno on the same day can be operated to bring the boost in several hundred rpm earlier. Your dyno comparison really has proved nothing.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Even so it still proves the HKS kit is a good kit and gives good proven results, i would put money on the hks gt800 out performing the EFR,S in a stock manifold @ the same cost


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

Its worth mentioning that the EFR6758 in the stock exhaust housing can do over 900hp and 600ftlbs at 3000rpm...


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## Samopangy (Nov 20, 2014)

I think just over 700 or just high 700 would be the choice, 750 is a bit in the middle. With 750, are you willing to build your engine? if not, could be a bit close the edge on the stock engine, or your tuner will just get you 720, nowhere to close 750. Build engine and gear box run it around 800, you will be very happy to stay with your car and you never have to go back garage to fix all the time, but please make sure you build it with the right tuner tho.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

C5ale said:


> That's why I used turbo technics in end.





terry lloyd said:


> These conversions are v/pricey ( putting it nicely ) from the tuners - you only have to buy new center core sections guessing around £600 each then a a bit of machining on the housings i would guess at @ £500 if that , would be interesting what turbo technics sell them for





Skint said:


> Think turbo Technics charge 3200 + Vat retail, it was a few weeks ago when I enquirer.
> Litchfields charge?


Ok email back from turbotechnics, after my enquiry- 



> We can do the 6758 conversions,
> Current lead time to convert your units is 2-3 months (takes a month currently for the 6758 supercores.)
> You can get your oil feed pipes sorted yourself, or I can give you a company that could make them for you that previous customers have used.
> 
> ...


then I asked - "How much for 7163? And do you sell 6758 /7163 R35 turbos ready to go, rather than having a car off the road whilst the turbos are converted?"



> No we strictly work on units supplied by customers, most customers buy a second hand set of turbos and send them in.
> We just currently do the 6758 conversion, we haven't been asked for that particular unit fitted to the GTR, so there will be additional lead times for design work of correct profile being drawn.
> Ryan ****


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

terry lloyd said:


> Even so it still proves the HKS kit is a good kit and gives good proven results, i would put money on the hks gt800 out performing the EFR,S in a stock manifold @ the same cost


HKS kit is definitely a good kit, but you'd lose your money.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

So Terry's 1700+vat has become 3200+vat plus three months lead time, all to bypass the tuners who took the time to develop the product. You also bypass the experience both linney and litchfield have in developing the maps for them over many cars.

Personally i wouldn't go the turbotechnics route. I think it's a slap in the face to the uk importers turbo dynamics, who have invested hundreds of thousands in stock held in the UK to be able to supply immediately. They also developed the conversion tech with Litchfield only to have it copied. 

Sorry for the rant, but doing what i do for a living, i get frustrated by those who bypass the pioneers who risk investment capital and buy cheap copies to save money but usually end up worse off. If everyone did that, no one would invest in innovation. How boring would that be?


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## HellsSalesman (Apr 12, 2017)

how does the gt30 compare to the 6758 (both converted) in terms of spool and top end?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

There are many many gt30 combinations, gtx, 30R with multiple wheel options. But difficult to answer that.

Garrett turbos have evolved from truck applications, the efr was designed fresh for exactly this type of application. Its core is far better supported I terms of separation size and number of bearings, it's exhaust wheel is much lighter resulting in much faster response.

As I've tried to say above, the graph didn't show you response, only boost threshold under high load (optimum performance).

The entire power run is wide open throttle from idle through to the lift off point.

Transient performance is how quickly the turbo responds above the boost threshold when you touch the throttle. Eg. cruising on the motorway, touch the pedal and turbos spool instantly because their moment of inertia is much lower than the alternatives.

The result is throttle response much closer to a big normally aspirated car.

Yes they ultimately spool earlier but they aren't going to remove all turbo lag compared with the competition.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> So Terry's 1700+vat has become 3200+vat plus three months lead time, all to bypass the tuners who took the time to develop the product. You also bypass the experience both linney and litchfield have in developing the maps for them over many cars.
> 
> Personally i wouldn't go the turbotechnics route. I think it's a slap in the face to the uk importers turbo dynamics, who have invested hundreds of thousands in stock held in the UK to be able to supply immediately. They also developed the conversion tech with Litchfield only to have it copied.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but doing what i do for a living, i get frustrated by those who bypass the pioneers who risk investment capital and buy cheap copies to save money but usually end up worse off. If everyone did that, no one would invest in innovation. How boring would that be?


Just to explain my pricing Adam a quick look you can buy a whole 6758efr for £1146 with actuator so its not beyond belief that you could get a core for @ £600 i had a compressor housing machined to take a bigger wheel for a s2000 turbo kit i built at a engineering company through work for less than £100 

A slap in the face for the tuners - well if they did not add gtr tax to everything i could sympathise 

Lastly these hybrids are shoehorned into compressor /exhaust housings A/Rs that they are not designed to run in imo way to small - there must be a downside to this hence i guess why litcfield and co made complete kits with manifolds that would take the correct housings - Also garrett turbos have the motorsport bearing option TR30R as used by WRC teams ( google them ) i had one on the s2000


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Adamantium said:


> So Terry's 1700+vat has become 3200+vat plus three months lead time, all to bypass the tuners who took the time to develop the product. You also bypass the experience both linney and litchfield have in developing the maps for them over many cars.
> 
> Personally i wouldn't go the turbotechnics route. I think it's a slap in the face to the uk importers turbo dynamics, who have invested hundreds of thousands in stock held in the UK to be able to supply immediately. They also developed the conversion tech with Litchfield only to have it copied.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, but doing what i do for a living, i get frustrated by those who bypass the pioneers who risk investment capital and buy cheap copies to save money but usually end up worse off. If everyone did that, no one would invest in innovation. How boring would that be?


I agree to a large extent although I think that Litchfield bring this on themselves by only advertising the price for the EFR's with their manifolds and when you compare that to the alternatives then it's an absolutely huge price difference. 

It's far from transparent that you can get the EFR's from litchfield without the manifolds.

As for doing it yourself, I don't really think it's a threat to the tuners, if you bought all of the parts you could forge your engine and add some EFR's for perhaps half of what it costs at one of the tuners but you take with that this risk of it going wrong.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I'm not against people during their own engines, that's not a proprietary product or anyone's IP.

Likewise if you want to start from scratch and for a commercially available turbo then go for it.

My objection is to people copying a solution that took a lot of money to develop and prove.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Turbo dynamics as Borg warner importers should supply all U.K. Registered company's with there products.

Specific hybrid turbo's that they develop should be solely reserved and distributed to the market as they pls.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Skint said:


> Turbo dynamics as Borg warner importers should supply all U.K. Registered company's with there products.
> 
> Specific hybrid turbo's that they develop should be solely reserved and distributed to the market as they pls.


Life is certainly not as black and white as this but failure to supply someone in the market with a product when you are the sole distributor is against EU anti competition law, even charging higher prices without justification is.

If they "develop" a hybrid turbo then they should really patent it, and if the patent does not get approved it means they didn't do anything significantly interesting to warrant a patent.

I'm right on the fence in this case, on one hand they made something that no one else did at the time which has proven to be pretty good. On the other hand they really only put some bits from various turbo's together in an interesting way.

I'm not convinced that any party really needed any more reward other than the initial profit from the sales they managed to make while competitors figured out how to do it which is pretty much where we are now.

Of course if I were Litchfield I'd easily get around that by just refusing to install or tune any EFR's that I did not supply (again which to my knowledge is the position)


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Get your point, but the patent point is bollocks - sorry.

Fyi the Litchfield manifold IS patented but that's a different story as we aren't talking about that product.

With regard to the hybrid efr. Let's just say that on r and d time it cost £30k in ramp time, custom hand made fabrication, labour etc just to see if the things were any good or even worth the effort. That's money that the competition don't have to recover so the pioneer is already down yet everyone gets to learn the result of the gamble.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Those in the know would have had a good idea what the results would be before they even tried fitting them - hybriding turbos has been around for ages its no big deal , i had one in a old cosworth


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Adamantium said:


> Get your point, but the patent point is bollocks - sorry.
> 
> Fyi the Litchfield manifold IS patented but that's a different story as we aren't talking about that product.
> 
> With regard to the hybrid efr. Let's just say that on r and d time it cost £30k in ramp time, custom hand made fabrication, labour etc just to see if the things were any good or even worth the effort. That's money that the competition don't have to recover so the pioneer is already down yet everyone gets to learn the result of the gamble.


Sell 15 sets at a premium and recover the £30k. In the grand scheme of things £30k development cost is not really a sufficient barrier to ask the rest of the world not to attempt to copy the idea. 

It's an interesting point though, where do we draw the line on such things. One thing I do know, whatever you do if you don't protect it in law and it's a good idea then someone else will copy it and the solution there is brand the product which again I'll give Litchfield praise for as they are definitely the most respected name in GTR circles in the UK, that alone makes them hard to compete with for the new entrants.


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