# Stage 4.5 Upgrade and SS IC



## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

Hi Guys

I bought my 2009 stage 4 last year from Litchfield, and I have largely left it alone accept for adding the Litchfield handling kit over the past 12 months. 

I am pleased to say I dropped it in last week for a 4.5 upgrade with super stock IC to be added, and whilst it was in also added the LM differential and ARBs. Picked it back up a few days back.

My reflections on how the car feels (on limited miles other than motorway so far):
- If feels a lot faster through the revs 
- My car is on the triple silenced exhaust, so the introduction of downpipes definitely adds more noise / spool and whistles
- There is a little more lag <2.5k rpm, but in gear no real difference. 
- Keeps pulling hard above 6k

I need some fun miles / a track day to judge the diff and ARBs .. but the car does feel tighter.

Very pleased!!


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Nice.

I'll add you to the Dyno comparison, see how it looks on paper.

Tbh, i'd be sweating everytime I put my foot down. Personally I'd have got it forged before turbos, the anxiety would'nt make it fun.

Looking forward to the rebuild thread though.


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

It***8217;ll be fine ...... torque, heat and crappy oil is what kills engines ***x1f642; (famous last words)


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

xevonowgtr said:


> hi guys
> 
> i bought my 2009 stage 4 last year from litchfield, and i have largely left it alone accept for adding the litchfield handling kit over the past 12 months.
> 
> ...


in the events section here there is a litcho gtr track day
may 30th
get down there, i have 700hp stage 4.25, so will be good to see what the added power does to mine on track


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

simGTR said:


> Nice.
> 
> I'll add you to the Dyno comparison, see how it looks on paper.
> 
> ...



Looking at the stats the torque is still capped to 4.25 levels.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> It’ll be fine ...... torque, heat and crappy oil is what kills engines ***x1f642; (famous last words)


And chocolate conrods :chuckle:


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

Mr.B said:


> Looking at the stats the torque is still capped to 4.25 levels.


Yup - avoids having to do engine, box and clutch etc etc, but still gain ~100hp at the top end


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> It***8217;ll be fine ...... torque, heat and crappy oil is what kills engines ***x1f642; (famous last words)


Theres plenty of engines failing at 600 ft lbs, its the luck of the draw, saw one stage 4.5 last 1 week before rod came out the side, mine cracked the block and bent a rod at under 650 ft lbs. If you knew how many failures there actually are that owners dont disclose or talk about as they would get no help from the tuners you may have thought twice HOWEVER there are cars that dont have a problem at much higher HP, Brad in the USA went 9.2 @140 on stock block, turbos and intercoolers and ran like that with Nitrous for a year, he put 4.5 turbos on to go 8s and grenaded the motor first pass. Hope it all works out OK as a busted block is very expensive, if it takes the heads as well think 20K to get out of it. IMO to go 4.5 properly you need to go Block, trans and clutch and then why go 4.5 because you can easily go 1000hp/850 ft lbs and its the torque you want, thats what moves it down the road, thats what makes it feel quick.
Edit to say also killed 4th gear at that level


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

L6DJX said:


> in the events section here there is a litcho gtr track day
> may 30th
> get down there, i have 700hp stage 4.25, so will be good to see what the added power does to mine on track


Would love to, but sadly I'm on hols!


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> Would love to, but sadly I'm on hols!


damnnnn, enjoy!


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

sweeet congrats! what turbos have you gone for?


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

dudersvr said:


> Theres plenty of engines failing at 600 ft lbs, its the luck of the draw, saw one stage 4.5 last 1 week before rod came out the side, mine cracked the block and bent a rod at under 650 ft lbs. If you knew how many failures there actually are that owners dont disclose or talk about as they would get no help from the tuners you may have thought twice HOWEVER there are cars that dont have a problem at much higher HP, Brad in the USA went 9.2 @140 on stock block, turbos and intercoolers and ran like that with Nitrous for a year, he put 4.5 turbos on to go 8s and grenaded the motor first pass. Hope it all works out OK as a busted block is very expensive, if it takes the heads as well think 20K to get out of it. IMO to go 4.5 properly you need to go Block, trans and clutch and then why go 4.5 because you can easily go 1000hp/850 ft lbs and its the torque you want, thats what moves it down the road, thats what makes it feel quick.


Agreed, i was running 650torque/680bhp for 2 years, and mine gave up the ghost at silverstone, was approx £15k to repair and forge... 

So i am now saving dosh to go to approx 900hp with 675-700 torque, 
going clutch, 1st gear and bigger turbo/manifold, as you say the torque is what moves you forward when you get it down.


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

dudersvr said:


> Theres plenty of engines failing at 600 ft lbs, its the luck of the draw, saw one stage 4.5 last 1 week before rod came out the side, mine cracked the block and bent a rod at under 650 ft lbs. If you knew how many failures there actually are that owners dont disclose or talk about as they would get no help from the tuners you may have thought twice HOWEVER there are cars that dont have a problem at much higher HP, Brad in the USA went 9.2 @140 on stock block, turbos and intercoolers and ran like that with Nitrous for a year, he put 4.5 turbos on to go 8s and grenaded the motor first pass. Hope it all works out OK as a busted block is very expensive, if it takes the heads as well think 20K to get out of it. IMO to go 4.5 properly you need to go Block, trans and clutch and then why go 4.5 because you can easily go 1000hp/850 ft lbs and its the torque you want, thats what moves it down the road, thats what makes it feel quick.


Fair enough - but my torque is only 620lbs and doesn't go north of 600lbs until ~3.5krpm. To be honest I'd have thought ... I am probably putting less strain on my rods than a smaller turbo'd 4.25?

All fingers crossed!!


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

dudersvr said:


> Theres plenty of engines failing at 600 ft lbs, its the luck of the draw, saw one stage 4.5 last 1 week before rod came out the side, mine cracked the block and bent a rod at under 650 ft lbs. If you knew how many failures there actually are that owners dont disclose or talk about as they would get no help from the tuners you may have thought twice HOWEVER there are cars that dont have a problem at much higher HP, Brad in the USA went 9.2 @140 on stock block, turbos and intercoolers and ran like that with Nitrous for a year, he put 4.5 turbos on to go 8s and grenaded the motor first pass. Hope it all works out OK as a busted block is very expensive, if it takes the heads as well think 20K to get out of it. IMO to go 4.5 properly you need to go Block, trans and clutch and then why go 4.5 because you can easily go 1000hp/850 ft lbs and its the torque you want, thats what moves it down the road, thats what makes it feel quick.
> Edit to say also killed 4th gear at that level


What this man says^^.. mine went at 4.25 (which it was at for 2 years) killed the engine / killed a turbo / killed the heads/ block and the oil pump... over 16k+ later fixed.. Proper distressing when it happens!



L6DJX said:


> Agreed, i was running 650torque/680bhp for 2 years, and mine gave up the ghost at silverstone, was approx £15k to repair and forge...
> So i am now saving dosh to go to approx 900hp with 675-700 torque,
> going clutch, 1st gear and bigger turbo/manifold, as you say the torque is what moves you forward when you get it down.


+1 also for 2 years as well @ stage 4.25, then KaBOOOMM!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

L6DJX said:


> Agreed, i was running 650torque/680bhp for 2 years, and mine gave up the ghost at silverstone, was approx £15k to repair and forge...
> 
> So i am now saving dosh to go to approx 900hp with 675-700 torque,
> going clutch, 1st gear and bigger turbo/manifold, as you say the torque is what moves you forward when you get it down.


Honestly thats the best way to go BUT I would 100% change the gear cluster as 4th will be weak and that will play on your mind, in for a penny in for a pound.


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

dudersvr said:


> Honestly thats the best way to go BUT I would 100% change the gear cluster as 4th will be weak and that will play on your mind, in for a penny in for a pound.


Full dodson box?


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

L6DJX said:


> Full dodson box?


Loads of £££££

But that sound!! :chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

L6DJX said:


> Agreed, i was running 650torque/680bhp for 2 years, and mine gave up the ghost at silverstone, was approx £15k to repair and forge...
> 
> So i am now saving dosh to go to approx 900hp with 675-700 torque,
> going clutch, 1st gear and bigger turbo/manifold, as you say the torque is what moves you forward when you get it down.


Which turbos and manifold? EFR's and LM?


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Just for fun:


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Am guessing they are all Litchfield dyno plots ? would be good to see some other Tuners staged tunes ( just for fun  )

Is CC runing a T4 off a old sierra cosworth ?


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

terry lloyd said:


> Is CC running a T4 off a old sierra cosworth ?


:double-finger:


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> Hi Guys
> 
> I bought my 2009 stage 4 last year from Litchfield, and I have largely left it alone accept for adding the Litchfield handling kit over the past 12 months.
> 
> ...


Get your name down for the GTRDC Day on a Runway (5th Aug),
you will be able to see how it stacks up against several different GTRs with various states of tune.


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

All Litchfield, so same Dyno.

It would only really be fair if someone ran their tuner build on the same dyno. 

Could do with a better CBA 4.25 plot tbh, my exhaust is on for sound not performance.


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

CBA 4.25 Litchfield tune you can add to the graph overlay.


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

It***8217;s interesting. The 4.25***8217;s put on a significantly more aggressive torque curve lower in the rpm than the 4.5***8217;s but sacrifice a lot of power at 6k+


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

Could whoever has the graphs overlay the torque curves on a graph - HP is only one side really?


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> Could whoever has the graphs overlay the torque curves on a graph - HP is only one side really?


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Now we have a more performance orientated CBA 4.25..


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

After this embarrassment I can***8217;t wait to get down to Litchfield***8217;s Dyno and get my ported manifold, bigger throttle bodies and Race IC remapped!!


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

I bet Litchfields mapped it like that to try and sell you some EFRs mate


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Ha ha ha Terry!

Must resist, must resist!!


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

I’ll just leave this here


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

I'll have a CBA 4.5 with 2012 turbo pipes, forge intercooler, 102mm exhaust, litchfield throttle bodies and litchfield manifold to add to this next week.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

borat52 said:


> I'll have a CBA 4.5 with 2012 turbo pipes, forge intercooler, 102mm exhaust, litchfield throttle bodies and litchfield manifold to add to this next week.


You do know the yank guys are running way over 1200hp on stock manifolds and throttle bodies dont you or is this a cosmetic excersise?


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Mr.B said:


> I’ll just leave this here


I have a set just like that on my desk:clap:


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Cruel and unnecessary


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Stage 1 :tard:


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

borat52 said:


> I'll have a CBA 4.5 with 2012 turbo pipes, forge intercooler, 102mm exhaust, litchfield throttle bodies and litchfield manifold to add to this next week.


2012 turbo pipes ? a bit small for a turbo upgrade ?


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

terry lloyd said:


> 2012 turbo pipes ? a bit small for a turbo upgrade ?


If I was going to the trouble of fitting turbos I would go bigger suction pipes like Linneys.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

dudersvr said:


> If I was going to the trouble of fitting turbos I would go bigger suction pipes like Linneys.


I agree mate - 2012 is not even the size of a stock turbo inlet they need to be ported just to match oem size


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

dudersvr said:


> You do know the yank guys are running way over 1200hp on stock manifolds and throttle bodies dont you or is this a cosmetic excersise?


A collection of parts that I bought from the for sale section on here, the car has been in this shape minus the 102mm exhaust for over 3 years now (I've got the old dyno but might as well get the latest tune on here for comparison once its done).

Was never designed to chase silly numbers but really to try to do everything possible to get the absolute best out of the smallest turbo possible. All other things equal, opening up the breathing on both sides of the engine should improve both response and output marginally on any set up. Sure you can get 1200bhp out of the stock items, but it doesn't mean you wouldn't get more out with components that flow better. 
I'm not delusional though, we're maybe talking 1-2% on the manifolds and throttle bodies (there are other benefits with the throttle bodies which make the car nicer to drive)

I had it built just before the EFR's were on the market, in hindsight I'd have put one of those variants in but at the time without wanting to forge the engine and keep the response as stock like as possible this is where I ended up.

It made 760bhp last time it was on the dyno so it seems to be a fairly effective set up.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

borat52 said:


> A collection of parts that I bought from the for sale section on here, the car has been in this shape minus the 102mm exhaust for over 3 years now (I've got the old dyno but might as well get the latest tune on here for comparison once its done).
> 
> Was never designed to chase silly numbers but really to try to do everything possible to get the absolute best out of the smallest turbo possible. All other things equal, opening up the breathing on both sides of the engine should improve both response and output marginally on any set up. Sure you can get 1200bhp out of the stock items, but it doesn't mean you wouldn't get more out with components that flow better.
> I'm not delusional though, we're maybe talking 1-2% on the manifolds and throttle bodies (there are other benefits with the throttle bodies which make the car nicer to drive)
> ...


On Q16 mine made approx 730 whp on very small turbos, I believe JCR turbos go 900hp.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

dudersvr said:


> I have a set just like that on my desk:clap:



Interesting.....


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Stage 4.5 and then some...
- Litchfield stage 4.5 turbo's (V-spec turbos afaik)
- 1050cc Asnu injectors
- decat downpipes and litchfieled 102mm exhaust
- original style forge intercooler
- Litchfield billet throttle bodies
- Litchfield intake manifold
- 2012 turbo pipes
- Litchfield air intakes

795bhp/659lbft

Probably needs forging really.


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

Wow! Superb!!! Are the throttle bodies / intakes in addition to a ***8216;normal 4.5***8217;? Lol .... tempting ha ha


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

Ps having had the car a little while since the upgrades - I love the diff and ARBs. The car feels even better than it did. 

As for power difference vs a mates stage 4.25. It***8217;s basically 1 second quicker 60-140 on an incline vs the 4.25 on flat/slight decline (7 seconds vs 8 seconds). Completely pointless for real life ..... but fun nonetheless ***x1f642;


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Interested in your thoughts on the effects of the uprated manifold and bigger TBs? Earlier spool? More top end grunt?

Only that I***8217;m about to fit the very same and I***8217;m curious to see whether my reasons for the upgrade are valid!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

charles charlie said:


> Interested in your thoughts on the effects of the uprated manifold and bigger TBs? Earlier spool? More top end grunt?
> 
> Only that I’m about to fit the very same and I’m curious to see whether my reasons for the upgrade are valid!


No need to change throttle bodies till 1500hp, just makes it harder to map for low speed driving


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> Wow! Superb!!! Are the throttle bodies / intakes in addition to a ***8216;normal 4.5***8217;? Lol .... tempting ha ha


The additional bits on top of a stage 4.5 are forge intecooler, 2012 turbo intake pipes (as my car is a 2009) litchfield intake manifold and throttle bodies - none of which are cheap but I managed to aquire the intercooler, intake pipes and manifold used on here at significant discount.

To clarify I would not go stage 4.5 with what's available now, I'd be putting EFR's on.




charles charlie said:


> Interested in your thoughts on the effects of the uprated manifold and bigger TBs? Earlier spool? More top end grunt?
> 
> Only that I***8217;m about to fit the very same and I***8217;m curious to see whether my reasons for the upgrade are valid!


It's hard to say as I did the manifold and throttle bodies together. I'm not convinced mine spools particularly quickly (though is that due to comparing forge intercooler with stock on other 4.5's?). From the dyno plot I'd say top end is significantly improved vs other 4.5's and the forge intercooler I have is certainly not the best out there right now.

I personally felt the throttle bodies made the gear changes more smooth when rolling, and litchfield said they are able to exercise more control over them to achieve this effect.

Initially they did result in start stop being a little more jerky and there appeared to be some sort of hole in the initial gearbox map where the car in certain on off throttle conditions would blip the throttle in anticipation of changing down then grab the same gear as it had before which wasn't ideal. To put it into perspective this happened about 10 times in 18 months and 5k miles. It seemed to be a very specific situation causing it.

Since getting it back things are much improved, smooth in start stop and not experienced the throttle blip at all yet. At a guess they've gathered more data over the last 18 months and improved the integration of the throttle bodies.

Just putting a set of EFR's in with stock intercooler, manifold and throttle bodies would likely now yield a better result than mine in both spool and top end, but the EFR's and these mods may well open up another 50bhp at the top end.

I didn't want to have to do it but I think a forged engine is going to be on the cards. Reading about stage 4's letting go has got me thinking that a tuned engine probably doesn't have huge longevity. I've got more than 3 years and 10k miles out of it at 760bhp, just seems financially sensible to do the engine now and not have to worry. Then do I change the turbo's and intercooler. What I do know is that 800bhp is enough, certainly don't need any more power.


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

borat52 said:


> The additional bits on top of a stage 4.5 are forge intecooler, 2012 turbo intake pipes (as my car is a 2009) litchfield intake manifold and throttle bodies - none of which are cheap but I managed to aquire the intercooler, intake pipes and manifold used on here at significant discount.
> 
> To clarify I would not go stage 4.5 with what's available now, I'd be putting EFR's on.
> 
> ...


I had 690bhp for 2 and a half years and mine let go, in hindsight i'd have forged it earlier, but, being completely honest, I had just moved house last year and couldnt afford it yet, but then it forced me to do so... 

I'd advise you to, it just gives you peace of mind and means you can go bigger power without the niggling doubt in your head at 7000rpm she will go boom boom


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

L6DJX said:


> I had 690bhp for 2 and a half years and mine let go, in hindsight i'd have forged it earlier, but, being completely honest, I had just moved house last year and couldnt afford it yet, but then it forced me to do so...
> 
> I'd advise you to, it just gives you peace of mind and means you can go bigger power without the niggling doubt in your head at 7000rpm she will go boom boom


Forged will go 8000+ if its balanced and lightened:thumbsup:


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

L6DJX said:


> I had 690bhp for 2 and a half years and mine let go, in hindsight i'd have forged it earlier, but, being completely honest, I had just moved house last year and couldnt afford it yet, but then it forced me to do so...
> 
> I'd advise you to, it just gives you peace of mind and means you can go bigger power without the niggling doubt in your head at 7000rpm she will go boom boom


seems quite a few going BOOOMM at stage 4+ lately with tunes over x2 years .... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe the tuners need to be warning people of the possibilitys?


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

Chronos said:


> seems quite a few going BOOOMM at stage 4+ lately with tunes over x2 years .... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe the tuners need to be warning people of the possibilitys?


I agree Chronos, the longevity just isnt there it seems on standard internals...


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Think i may buy some shares in carrillo


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

terry lloyd said:


> Think i may buy some shares in carrillo


I bought Manley Turbo Tuff rods for mine which is all back at AC t be assembled. So now has ductile iron liners, new pistons, another new crank, tomei cams and GT3582 turbos, having driven Buzz's car today (in the wet!!!) the spool is very liveable (it has similar spec turbos) so cant wait to get it back.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

OK guys little update on stage 4.5/5 cars, mate just fitted a forged motor and the JCR turbos hes been using over a year, we mapped it a little higher due to the motor, very similar map to my road map which was high 600's torque, lasted 1 day and ripped 4th gear out and map was conservative:sadwavey:


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## XEvoNowGTR (Mar 8, 2018)

Is the answer to all this basically if you are running over 600lbs or so of torque you are carrying an engine and gear box risk regardless of whether you are stage 4,4.25,4.5,5 unless both are built. 

If I compare mine for instance .... and I may well prove to be horribly mistaken but by swapping to stage 4.5:

- I***8217;m not adding any more torque just simply shifting the curve a bit later 
- the turbo ramp up has been moderated
- fuel pumps have been upgraded 
- extra HP comes from an intercooler smidge more boost but mainly just holding boost better in the rpm rather than choking like the stock ones

If I contrast that with stage 4;
- closing in on maxing fuel pumps
- maxing turbos out generating loads of heat
- torque ramping earlier and more steeply

This may sound crazy but I can almost build an argument that my 4.5 car should be the safer option over a stage 4 lol!


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

XEvoNowGTR said:


> Is the answer to all this basically if you are running over 600lbs or so of torque you are carrying an engine and gear box risk regardless of whether you are stage 4,4.25,4.5,5 unless both are built.
> 
> If I compare mine for instance .... and I may well prove to be horribly mistaken but by swapping to stage 4.5:
> 
> ...


Revs also kill rods, you're holding more torque higher up the rev range, your just pounding them harder for longer. If your "on it" what rev range are you in the most?

I think we're all ticking time bombs though, the point is is I'd be spending that turbo money on reliability, that's where the argument is, not who's safest.

I've just got back to the UK, 7 weeks away and I've been driving in map 1 at 1 bar, haven't even put my foot to the floor! If this car wasn't already at 4.25 i doubt I'd bother.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Put a good stage 2 car next to a 4.25 car although they feel different in the real world there would not be lots in it imho - it takes a lot to pull away from another car


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

Just found this thread and this is the 4.5 car I bought last October. Still going strong,but I have no intention of tracking on a standard engine and it is in the back of your mind that a rod could let go. But 20k for a new block if it does with the damage !! Its really made my mind upto forge it and tbh its not a huge amount to it.


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## RichardGWhite (Sep 24, 2017)

Really sobering reading. My 2010 4.25 is running 654BHP and 575lb/ft. And like many of us, I just love it, whenever I can, at maximum attack with the highest boost. But having it SORNd now for 6 months makes me think I might just dial the boost back a bit and hope that I learn to love it again with slightly less.


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