# 1200kms engine broken pics help guess how?



## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Hi guys well here are the pics.
Ive been specifically asked to ask all of the forum members to take a standalone view meaning dont take anything from previous or past posts can any one guess why this engine has failed ?
A brief description is No 2 and No 5 conrod bearings very knackered rest of the bigs ends held their own.
The center bearing with thrust washer was knackered and the end bearings on the mains have been half wiped meaning the upper bearing half wiped like a half moon bottom bearing not so much.
The head is shagged and needs to be replaced because of the cam journals being eaten up and cam shafts have massive scores in them.
The engine was new serviced at 100kms then at 1000kms.
Oil used castrol Gtx first 20w-50 for 100kms
Then castrol Monograde 40w
Then castrol edge 10w-60
here are the pics will try and label them also.\
Ps for the record i used a hard and thorough way of bedding engine in and ran the car car for the first 100kms.
here with piston pics


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## waynegts (Nov 23, 2006)

100kms is not enough to run an engine in, at least 1000miles surely?


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## Marlon88 (Sep 20, 2008)

Oil starvation i guess! What was the reason the engine went bad the first time? When an engine goes bad it does`t matter if you change bearings and other stuff that looks worn, you have to find the source that caused the problem.


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## P3RV3RT (Aug 2, 2005)

You need an expert mechanics advice and not someone on here quoting!


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

How looked the oilpressures.....what pump.....what mods...


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Hi Guys sorry my link went down after posting those few pics 
Ecu standard 
engine was brand new using N1 oil pump as this was a Nur spec engine from nissan japan
Also no supporting mods standard boost.
100kms hard run in with normal oil, then change to normal oil again to run in some more until 1000kms, then synthetic oil used after the car had done 1000kms.
Then engine failed.
Oil pressures always high above 3 bar
Temps always good oil a little high now and then at 95Degrees.
Pull clutch with uprated clutch cover, pressure plate cleaned with a light skim, and clutch adjusted correctly with a little free play meaning wasnt riding all the time engaged.
here are some more pics of the motor.


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

The pics are a bit all jumbled but the oil pump drive needs looking at as it had wear on the cylindrical surface not on the flats


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Note center bearing damage and end bearing damage also note there was serious damage to conrod big end bearing no 2 and no 5


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

waynegts said:


> 100kms is not enough to run an engine in, at least 1000miles surely?


Hi Wayne. There have been a few threads on here about running in. When I had mine rebuilt a couple of years back. Rod did the initial 30+ miles after the build and I finished it off building up gradually. Took it back for mapping after 800 miles. Did not labour engine but did not take it easy, but kept below 5k revs. I read engine is never right if you do not give it enough beans running it in (NOT thrashing it!). Mine is sweet now.

Looking at this motor. Not nice. Did oil pump fail?


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Here are some more pics


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

As much as I would love to help, I refuse to assist in any diagnostics based on photo's as last time I tried to help I was banned from this site ....


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

GT-R Glenn said:


> As much as I would love to help, I refuse to assist in any diagnostics based on photo's as last time I tried to help I was banned from this site ....



Really? 

Surely you cant be banned for giving your view on why a engine has failed when a company etc who fitted has not been named or maybe the owner of the car fitted themself?



The guy is asking for our personal opinons on why his engine has failed. No companys involved so im sure you cant do any harm for taking your best guess mate . 


I would love to give my opinion but i dont know why! I would like to learn tho :thumbsup:


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

anyway, my personal view would be that there was lack of oil flowing round the engine. 

This is the second engine you have that has done the same thing? 


You say you had oil pressure? Have you checked oil pressure with a secound gauge as the one your using may not be reading correct? 

Maybe something plumed into the engine (oil cooler etc) is blocked and stoppping flow?


I must say that i really dont know and im no pro. Just taking a guess here.


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

seems a bit harsh glenn , obviously i dont know the whole story though .


but to answer in my opinion surely if the oil pressure is showing fine then i would have thought it would have been contaminated oil ( solid loose bits ) but taking a closer look at those pics looks more of a build issue to say that it wasnt assembled in the correct manner because if all the bolts was not tightened to the correct torque and lubed were appropriate etc but over tightened then it would show more higher oil temps and good oil pressure and cause engine failure regardless of doing the correct oil run in procedure .

maybe over tightened bolts wasnt causing a problem straight away but after a short time small deposits was being shaved off causing more bits to be pumped round the engine causing poor oiling to other parts of the engine even though showing good pressure and also increasing the chain reaction of continuous scoring of the other engine parts , once it starts it only gets worse and spreads quickly and multiplies the damage .

just my view on this from what i see but theres always some one out there that would put me to shame with there knowledge and experience lol :thumbsup:


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

That was an answer i have been told was what caused the engine to fail, so a brand new engine from Nissan that was not assembled correctly and caused the bearings to fail ? Possible ?
As far as we know this engine was a rebuild engine from nissan it was a R motor reburito something to that effect.
So in saying that i have been trying to acertain the cause of damage as there is no oil cooler as i didnt ever have on intalled.
The first engine threw a rod due to a faulty rod bolt surely thats unrelated to oil pressure in this engine ?
can any one else help me find out what caused this engine failure?


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks like the crankshaft has been moving backward and forwards in its cradle, rubbed against the crank caps, and caused bits of metal to be deposited all over the engine.

thats what I think happened. 

Rick


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

EndlessR said:


> Looks like the crankshaft has been moving backward and forwards in its cradle, rubbed against the crank caps, and caused bits of metal to be deposited all over the engine.
> 
> thats what I think happened.
> 
> Rick


I agree, the thrusts look like they'd have failed first, then all the metal off them has been pumped through the whole motor causing everything else to be badly scored.

The "usual" cause of thrust washer failer is clutch adjustment. 

Rob


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> I agree, the thrusts look like they'd have failed first, then all the metal off them has been pumped through the whole motor causing everything else to be badly scored.
> 
> The "usual" cause of thrust washer failer is clutch adjustment.
> 
> Rob


Exactly what i was thinking after seeing the pictures......:thumbsup:


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## 2 Black Lines (May 30, 2008)

Couple of things:

Rings not bedded in, ( probably due to taking out the minearal oil before they were fully bedded in)
mis- alignement of the centre thrust surfaces - ( wrong crank cradle?)
Possible bent crank before all the crap started floating about?

Are you able to measure the bore clearence to piston on the best bore remaining?

btw, why change to the 40 weight single grade?


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Thankyou all for the response so far 2 black lines seems to be the only person on the right track here and thats based on what alot of people have said clearances were not set correctly or incorrect assembly caused the thrusts to fail after the bearings were failing already from incorrect clearances.

2 Black lines i ran the engine with mineral oil for 100kms then ran again with a mineral 40w as they all say use the shittest oil out there to bed the rings in, then after 1000kms change and run another set of 40w oil which i didnt do but 50kms down the road this is what happened.
So eventually i dropped the motor after 50kms and hearing the rattle at a stand still car parked in the yard here at home .
I didnt run synthetic only till the end what oil should i have used for running in is my first question.
Second question any one out there know how to check clutch adjustment when i have fitted a Twin plate Nismo coppermix in the car?

That center bearing points to the fact that it got hot early in the game it points that it picked up when the motor first started and didnt ever stop dying making a nice grinding paste and eating the thrust washer.


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

Is this a brand new engine from Nissan?
Such a shame :bawling:


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

even if it wasnt run in properly no engine should be that scored up after 700 miles !
was it bought new by you from nissan then ?


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

This engine was purchased from a company in japan that was dealing with nur spec engines from nissan.
This unit was apparently a rebuild new engine from nissan the engine tag denotes such a difference which was only mentioned to me recently.
Any one know where i can get a brand new one from by any chance ?


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Ps by the way it doesnt help that i have a start up clutch switch and i have to put my clutch in to start the engine am i right ?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

adamsaiyad said:


> Ps by the way it doesnt help that i have a start up clutch switch and i have to put my clutch in to start the engine am i right ?


That definatly won't help but I'm still pretty sure you'll find the thrusts we loaded from incorrect clutch adjustment, its just a shame you ran it for so long doing so much damage to the block/cradle etc, it must have been making one hell of a noise.

Rob


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

wrong bearing carrier on Nismo twin plate...thrust failed and took everything with it.

simple.

Have a look at the rest of the mains...they look ok. Nothing to do with oil/clearance as the mains have no sign of lack of oil (they would be black from excessive heat). The big ends...do they have have localised compression marks that excessive clearance would create? or have they just been chewed out from the thrust bearing material going through them.


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## car32 (Oct 12, 2003)

heres my theory
on first startup how long was it before it fired up and oil pressure was showing?
with the 34 you have to press the clutch to start,if it had been turning over for a long time with no oil pressure,this would cause the thrust bearing to run dry.
once it has picked up on the thrust surface it would just get worse every time you used the clutch until the grindings off the block get thrown around and thats it.


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Right for the myths about clutch setup etc....
I have uprated exedy clutch cover and the cover is 1300kgs clamping load this was skimmed and i was using it with a standard master and slave cylinder .
The thrust bearing was oem and there for couldnt not have been a incorrect match as the pressure plate/clutch cover is almost the same as a standard nissan item.


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

*To Add MORE CONFUSION ON FAILURE*

Right guys here is some evidence i had to leave out because i was asked to get some opinions and see what people have thought and would think about this engine failure.
I had a DUAL MASS flywheel.... this ugly peice of hard ware has two pivoting surfaces connected with some pressure springs and possibly some hydraulic dampers internally.
So i had this unit balanced together with my clutch cover/pressure plate.
So now when this was balanced they drilled holes in the face that is not supposed to be drilled or lightened.... my theory is that the backing part of the flywheel part that sits facing the rear main seal has some copper weights.
So the copper weights are there from factory, and these are made when the flywheel is in two peices.
The front section ie part that touches the clutch plate is balanced seperately.
Then the back section is attached and balanced together under loading off the springs internally so that under acceleration the whole unit is balanced.
My unit was in balance at idle but at high Rpm made a very grrrryyyyy noise and made the whole car vibrate like shit like in was going over a bumpy corrigated road, and everytime i hit high rpm 5800rpm above bang vibration through my seat, steering wheel, gear stick everywhere and it only got worse with revs.
Did this a few times as i was trying to find out where the fault was.... loose engine mounts etc... 
Eventually put it down to the flywheel and shortly afterward noticed faint rattling noise coming from the bottom end which only got worse everytime i started the engine to try find the rattle .. which was the death rattle.
So here are some pics you guys tell me if this makes sense.
A crank spinning at 6000rpm causing harmonic distortion and flexing inside causing premature bearing failure after being reved not once not twice, wait for it but probably 6-8 times in its life thats all it takes a small imbalance can ruin a engine when a damper pulley is dropped imagine the shock waves a unbalanced dual mass flywheel sends through the whole car.
Moral of the story never balance a dual mass flywheel, take it off and bin it burn it melt it send it back to luk and call them names #$%#$%.
I only balanced mine on recommendation that a friend told me to do so.
And its was balanced because i resurfaced it ......
Think about it guys ....?????
uke:
It makes me sick !!!!


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## rogerdavis (Feb 16, 2008)

adamsaiyad said:


> That was an answer i have been told was what caused the engine to fail, so a brand new engine from Nissan that was not assembled correctly and caused the bearings to fail ? Possible ?
> As far as we know this engine was a rebuild engine from nissan it was a R motor reburito something to that effect.
> So in saying that i have been trying to acertain the cause of damage as there is no oil cooler as i didnt ever have on intalled.
> The first engine threw a rod due to a faulty rod bolt surely thats unrelated to oil pressure in this engine ?
> can any one else help me find out what caused this engine failure?


I doubt very much it was bad workmanship at Nissan. contaminated turbos? turbos use an oil line maybe there was crap in there?

I dont think it has anything to do with a flywheel out of balance, it look like oil starvation/blockage to me.


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

*Here are the pics of the peice of krap flywheel*

For what its made for from factory these are brilliant come time to replace go for a solid one easier to maintain and easier to balance.

Here are the pics of this dual mass flywheel with drill marks all along the edge done by a company in Southern Africa no names mentioned.... they should have advised me its not possible the unit can only be balanced at a luk factory.


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## waynegts (Nov 23, 2006)

gutted for you mate, im scared to start mine now


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

rogerdavis said:


> I doubt very much it was bad workmanship at Nissan. contaminated turbos? turbos use an oil line maybe there was crap in there?
> 
> I dont think it has anything to do with a flywheel out of balance, it look like oil starvation/blockage to me.


Please state your evidence to support this 'theory'.


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## freakazoid3 (Jan 19, 2008)

My 2 cents: The unbalanced flywheel in combination with the clutch being unbalanced/misadjusted overloadied the thrust washer and shredding it, scraping the mains and leading to bits and pieces all over made up to this catastrofical killed engine...

Seems like you don't have a lot a luck mate 
Just get a complete new RIPS engine or similar with clutch and box or something sent to you, put oil in it and floor it 
Don't loose faith in the GTR :thumbsup:


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

think i got carried away with my explanation but atleast it still seems along those line of part of the build being the issue .


knew some of you would make a better diagnosis lol :thumbsup:


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## harryturbo (Jan 24, 2004)

*thrusts*

my two penith...i raced and built engines and cars for 20 years had many blow ups .....this looks a combo of things to me,mabee that flywheel putting to much pressure on thrusts ,then the thrusts breaking up mains then picking up .to much movement result is what you got ...or just one main bolt torqued incorrect ,,this is why you go to peple who are metticulous about building ENGINES.....this is my tuppence worth........h:wavey:


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

I had a new build RB26 engine that had the centre bearing break up like that I should have put a new block in first time.
I think the ladder had become distorted as the engine was working hard:chuckle: the first time it failed.
For info I had also had drilled out the oil way plugs and checked for metal but they were clean so that was not the problem.
Someone else on here had a RB26 engine rebuilt three or four times due to a reoccuring centre bearing problem


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## nismoboy (Dec 30, 2010)

gutted for you m8 hope you get to the bottom of this & may the force be with you. listen to rob, red r racing & the rest of the boys they know there stuff man.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

got any pictures of the flywheel bolts ? looks to me from the pictures the holes are elongated meaning the flywheel was loose or the bolts were too long and had bottomed out in the end of the crank causing it to be loose


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## freakazoid3 (Jan 19, 2008)

I think is't just leftovers from loctite that make the mounting holes in the clutch look strange


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

Hello Gentleman, im suprised to see this post still going strong i thought it would have gone dead cold like old posts normally do .
Thankyou for the insight and thoughts, i will take some pics of the lengths of the flywheel bolts and also some pics of the flywheel as well and take some measurements as well.
Though that theory might just be right ?
We can never rule anything out and indeed the unbalancing was really bad like driving on a rough road at slow speed thats what it felt like at 4500rpm.
I should have kept the first and second filter to shred apart and check internals and see what peices we find through out stages of run in process.
thanks again and hope you all had a good xmas and a great new year wishing you all the best for 2011....
My new years resolution get the Gtr34 running and running sweet.


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

have a look at the end of the gearbox input shaft and spigot bush in the back of the crank for any signs that the gearbox when bolted up could have been pushing the end of the crankshaft - for any reason - enough to cause the failure of the thrust bearing?


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

that might have been valid had the crank have walked forward but in this case the crank walked so far that the timing belt pulley on the front nose of the crank actually started eating at the seal an front face of the oil pump and part of the outer face of the oil pump as well.
I can only assume it was the clutch but i couldnt even tell that it wasnt realeasing...
Can any one share some thoughts on how a clutch should be setup on a fresh motor .
Could it be that i needed to bleed the clutch system .

Or possibly it could have been that first dry start and having to engage the clutch pedal to start the car as i had not disconnected the clutch engagement start option and this constant cranking while running in and having to depress the clutch pedal could have caused this ....

Or alternatively i think it might just have been the clutch cover or pressure plate .
it was skimmed and there fore the engagment point can also cause this or so at least i feel this might have caused this problem .

i would love to get to the bottom of this as it would assist in finding where i was an idiot LOL .


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## frostmotorsport (Aug 10, 2007)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> That definatly won't help but I'm still pretty sure you'll find the thrusts we loaded from incorrect clutch adjustment


I too am very keen to know about this as my engine is currently being rebuilt and I'm planning on fitting a new twin plate before it goes back in!

Rob, can you shed some more light on this for us?


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

looking at this.i would need to know bearing clearance when built and endfloat. in my personal view it was built with no endfloat at all. reason both side of the centre main have suffered,both oil feed grooves on both sides are missing, clutch damage would only affect the loaded side.also i suspect clearance on no2 and 5 where to tight. swarf from the centre main has done the damge on the cams i supsect..


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

*Thankyou rockabilly*

I would like to clear up some of the questions and comments in the hope of getting some pure answers and thankyou for taking the time to look at the post.
Im not sure if you want me to put a i can post some pics of the center bearings.
The contact face of the crank and pull clutch have been worn so badly that there is shiny metal sticking out of the bearing face and the oil feeds are totaly wiped.
The opposite side being the non contact face as there is no pressure from the clutch system because its a pull means that there was end float.... based on what you said no end float and both sides of the center bearing being worn .... == no end float .

So the center bearing has only the one face 360 Degrees wiped but the other side is ok and still has oil feeds....and white metal not even touched....

now down to this clutch which all fingers are point to !!!!!
How would one tell if the clutch is improperly setup or configured please shed some light we need help and come on the forum for the help !!!!

Its to my understanding that as long as the pedal has free play the clutch simply isnt engaged ? and when the pedal has no free play from the top to the bottom it means the piston in the master Cylinder is under pressure all the time and constantly pulling or pulling depending on the type of clutch setup.

Clutch systems are simple and i think a deduction between members will be great as to the best way to setup etc etc......
Its a simple equation of fluid and pressures and finally the acting force being the arm or Fork and the acted part the pressure plate to disengage or engage and make contact......

Maybe the easiest way is th get under the car in neutral while the car is running in servo assisted clutches like my gtr34 and check the slave cylinder pin for a little free play meaning fully disengaged...
I speak from experience and i checked all of the above, and still had a center bearing go bust ...

So this leads me to believe that this Exedy uprated clutch cover and the three paddle disc arent meant for a Gtr34 with a dual mass flywheel.
And Ps dont skim the the pressure plate cause it increases pedal movement forces and puts a greater load on the center bearings???

Please give us your views readers this would make a great read for alot of us especially those Diyers that want to change their own clutch systems and bleed them and adjust them etc...
Thanks again.


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

New year bump !!!


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## jasaircraft (Feb 15, 2009)

rebump


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## adamsaiyad (Aug 23, 2006)

another Japan earth quake not nice im sad for them bump.


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