# oh oh- blue smoke



## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

bit of a problem.

Was on track this eve. Folk reported some blue/grey smoke under acceleration. Pulled up couldnt see anything, shut the car down. Started up 5mins later, big plume of blue smoke out the back.... it died down but was still a blue tint. Called the day quits then.

Checked the oil, it'd used about 0.5l. Topped it up and drove home with missus behind to check out the smoke. She said that there was some blue/gray smoke under acceleration only... not much, but some.

The engine sounds as before..... checked the compression

No1 - 155 psi
No2 - 158 psi
No3 - 158 psi
No4 - 156 psi
No5 - 147 psi
No6 - 152 psi

The turbo spool sounds a wee bit 'different'. Cant describe it, but it just sounds different.

Oil temps were fine, Oil pressure is good. 2bar at warm idle, rising.

I checked the breather that goes to the inlet post AFM, and it was dry bar some residue... certainly not wet.

The IC pipework was a bit oily last time i had the IC off.

Any thoughts?


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## dave100 (Oct 23, 2006)

Adam, i had that on my MR2 turbo. The turbo had to be reconditioned. Bad news mate  
Maybe a good excuse to upgrade?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

they are about 2000mile old Garret GT298060R's LOL

I have a suspision its a turbo.... the rear one for some reason. Its been using a bit of oil since they were fitted.

Compression seems fine so i dont think its passing the rings :/ The plugs were NOT all gunked up either.....


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## dave100 (Oct 23, 2006)

Sh*t thats not what you would expect after so little miles! Do you have dealer back up or were they a private purchase?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

bought from a company in the states.... group buy through here. Its not been diagnosed properly yet though...


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## MartinC (Jan 1, 2006)

sounds like turbo blowing a bit of oil.

What head gasket are you running with those compressions??


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Tomei 1.2 Metal...

Compressions are fairly tight yeah? ( or high rather?)

Engine is about 2000mile old

What would cause a turbo to blow oil? Nackered seals?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

captured here


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

Did you fit the oil-restrictor to the turbos?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

pass.... the turbo's were fitted by the garage the built the block.

Are they 100% needed?!

Seen a few threads on here saying yes/no.


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## Scottishgirl (Apr 27, 2007)

Hey Adam,
sorry to hear that! Hope you still make it to Crail.....


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

ach... the 911 will get to stretch its legs there..... again LOL


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## MarkMcQ (Sep 13, 2006)

I have a Supra here that's doing that. Valve stem oil seals are knackered on it.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

ExScoobyT said:


> Did you fit the oil-restrictor to the turbos?


I've got a pair that just arrived. I'll see if my turbos are good or bad when I install these little buggers - my 2860-5s came from the same group buy btw, I'm only guessing wildly at this point but with a JUN oil pump my car is usually between 5-7bars pressure when hot unless the clutch is in and I'm idling (2.5bar then)

only in the tuned car world...first you worry about low oil pressure, next it's too high...:squintdan 

any weird PFC knock readings or a loss in boost?


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

You have to install the restrictors to the turbos,if not it will smoke under boost and you will have bad spooling:sadwavey:


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## pupsi (Aug 29, 2006)

A lot of people don't always use both of the water or oil lines, they'll use one or the other. Use both, theres a lot of pressure and power being produced.


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## pupsi (Aug 29, 2006)

Adam Kindness said:


> bought from a company in the states.... group buy through here. Its not been diagnosed properly yet though...


Adam, if the turbo is fooked, Don, is the guy to speak to, nice guy, I would imagine he will change the turbo for you. If you need his details? let me know.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

pupsi said:


> Adam, if the turbo is fooked, Don, is the guy to speak to, nice guy, I would imagine he will change the turbo for you. If you need his details? let me know.


so you're saying that the shop where we got our group-buy turbos from will replace them if we've fubar'ed them?


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## roadie (Feb 6, 2006)

Definitely fit the restrictors.....I think garrett recommended a maximim restrictor orifice of 1.2mm on my 4088. I am using a 1.1mm with no issues at all.....
My old T88 had a freakin fire hose of oil running thru it...:squintdan


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Toby - You have new turbos? What happened to the old ones?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Don... who is Don?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Toby - I sent an email to Joshua Jeff at Hybrid Connection asking about the restrictors. Have you been back intouch with them?


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

Adam Kindness said:


> Toby - You have new turbos? What happened to the old ones?


nope, I'm still using the 2860s we got in the group buy, but I am finding a teeny bit of oil seepage now and again from the turbo housings, which is why I got the restrictors.


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Toby - as stated the cars performance doesnt seem affected, It appears to be a have a slightly different spool noise now though.

Did you get the restrictors from Hybrid Connection, and what size? 0.7mm?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Ok... bit of an update.

Spoke with Don at Hybrid Connection - said that they should be a direct replacement and most people dont bother with restictors.

I'm running 6bar oil pressure (cold) at idle, 2.5'ish warm.

Re-checked compression - cold engine this time, 150psi

I stipped off the IC and piping to see what was lurking. :O

Poured a lot of oil out of the IC, and it was dripping out of both pipes into the IC.











































































inlet









front turbo intake side










no smoke.... couldnt see any smoke during test drive (up to temp), could not see any smoke at idle. Could not see any smoke (bar a wee black fuel puff) when pressing accelerator when stationary










One thing thats puzzling me is that if this is a result of oil being sooked up through the breathers etc.... why would they be quite 'dry'

If it was turbo seals would it not smoke all the time? Same with valve stem seals and rings.


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

went out for a wee test drive tonight after cleaning out the pipes. Whiteish blue smoke was viseble under acceleration. And MAYBE just under normal driving.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Might just be the pic but the oil looks like its emulsified a bit(???)...
Valve stem seals usually produce smoke on the overrun.

TT


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Blue Smoke Out Of Exhaust - Skylines Australia


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## plkettle (Feb 2, 2004)

try drive it when 100% cold and give it a little boost (under 1bar) and see if there is more blue smoke when its cold or not

what oil are you using ? is it too thick/thin ?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Castrol Edge Sport 10w60


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

i've re-visited the breathers. The 1way check valve on the block doesnt seem to be one way in my opinion :lol: Can blow a little bit, and suck a little.

I bodged a filter on the the crankcase and blocked off the inlet...

The breather on the right side of the engine did seem to be a bit gunky.
And i've noticed (you'll see it in the vids below) that the car has a wee problem settlign to idle after a spirited acceleration. Sounds like the ICV or whatever they are know on skylines needs a clean as its gunked up :S


















































and a coupel of vids to see if there was any smoke.... just appears to be black fuel smoke now (in my opinion) 

http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/images/cars/skyline/MOV01111.3GP

a wee flame in this one... whoopsi
http://www.trackscotland.co.uk/images/cars/skyline/MOV01112.3GP


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

where didja get that little filter? I want one too!!!


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

i gave one away from my old track car, and was cursing doing that yesterday. I found this one at the local halfords, something like £7.

Does the job for now as a test.

Catch tank with breather is the next step


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I have a Nismo oil separator, and because I don't want to return the breather back into the intake, all I need is one of those filters and I'm good to go.


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

The valve that screws into the balance pipe should be one-way.  If it is not then you will be pressurizing the cam covers and crank case when driving on boost. Unscrew it and clean it and check again. It should seal when you suck on it (Boost pressure on the rear)......


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Kismet - pipercross make them. I used to have that one but they wanted £15 for it. Try ebay for breather or crankcase filter

exscoobyT - yup... i'll go get some carb cleaner, but i plan to block the valve anyway.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

could just be a gasket (hope so)


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

ExScoobyT said:


> The valve that screws into the balance pipe should be one-way. If it is not then you will be pressurizing the cam covers and crank case when driving on boost. Unscrew it and clean it and check again. It should seal when you suck on it (Boost pressure on the rear)......


hmm!!!! I wonder if problems with this balance pipe valve might be in my engine, and the source of why my fuel pressure regulators stay locked at their set pressure. Is this the "PCV"? What will blocking it off do?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

it takes back oily air from the crankcase.... but not under boost, only vacuum (or its supposed to)

When i give mine a suck n' a blow (ooooh er) its seems to give both ways... but not free flowing, like its blocked.


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

...if it was opening on boost, then yes you would affect the pressure in the balance pipe (similar to having a leak in the intake manifold).

The PCV is the purge control valve and it controls the release of fuel vapour from the carbon canister to the front of No1 throttle body. Its the pancake like disk just to left of the carbon canister (on R33 anyway)


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

eh?

I thought it stood for positve crankcase ventilation or such like, and was linked to the breather on top of the engine?!

here, middle of pic,


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

..ah could be a case of euro / jap differences. `We` call the canister valve PCV......but we are talking about the gubbins in your picture......


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## plkettle (Feb 2, 2004)

ExScoobyT said:


> The valve that screws into the balance pipe should be one-way. If it is not then you will be pressurizing the cam covers and crank case when driving on boost. Unscrew it and clean it and check again. It should seal when you suck on it (Boost pressure on the rear)......



i cant find this valve, do you have a pic of it ?


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

In the middle of the pic above....


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

aye, just whip that hose off and you'll see it.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

one more piece of the puzzle fitted, one more engine gremlin gone


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

had a leak down test done this morning, nothing showing up... but it appears the car is running on 5 and a bit. Re plug in the injector and it fires on 6 for a while, then back down again. suspected worn valve guide or sticky valve... who knows 

Head to be whipped off for a check


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

Toby - so the valve was leaking then?


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## huskyracer (Jun 23, 2007)

Do you have the results of the cylinder leakage test? i find the figures are often mis interpreted, in my opinion, over 10-15% leakage is a problem, although on some leakage testers there is an indication on the guage (second scale indicating good, iffy, bad) that everything is ok at 25% leakage, I have personaly pulled pistons out of engines with no ringlands that showed less than this......... In my experience sticking valves/giudes dont cause blue smoke


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

the leakage test didnt show anything bad :S


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

update:

Head is off and part stripped.

Exhaust valve guides are gone, oil is litterally running down the guides


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## git-r (Nov 15, 2005)

Sorry to hear that mate:bawling: 
I thought you had just got the engine rebuilt??
At least it's nothing too serious..


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

bottom half only rebuilt LOL

'least the top will be fresh now LOL


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

was it hard to get the head off? did you have to pull the engine to do it?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

i didnt do it. I took it back to the garage who built the bottom end. Let them know my findings re compression, turbo's and blow back etc.

They straight away noticed that it wasnt running on all 6, checked the coil packs, injectors then did a leak down. All highlighted no probs. They then said suspected worn guides or sticking valve (that was sealed with leak down)

Suspect the engine is still in situ as it was off in a mater of hours.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

ExScoobyT said:


> Toby - so the valve was leaking then?


it is definitely part of the problem. I didn't have time to take it all apart, but I did take the breather off and, uh, sucked and blew. Did that a few times and the valve stuck nicely on the suck and opened on the blow. Car drove with normal knock readings for a bit, then started spiking on throttle lift, and, rattled on boost. Stopped the car, sucked and blew again (must have looked quite a sight what in a suit and tie, underneath my hood at the side of a busy boulevard, and same thing again - a bit of normalcy, then the anomalous knock readings. The car drives normally however.

One thing I've come to learn is that it's often a combination of little things that make diagnosis a devilish task...


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Its supposed to block on the suck, open on blow


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Righto...

Happened again when Fee had it on track last week.

Breather to inlet is diverted to Atmos - so not it
PCV checked out ok = shut when sucked, but also blow

Sure its fecked turbo seals filling the IC with oil. The oil is then getting to a point where its getting sucked through... esp when out on track.

Compression is fine, leakdown is fine. New engine and head (turbos too but hey :/ )

No smoke at all on idle / cold start / warm start - just on boost whilst giving it some round corners etc. Just passed MOT with emissions that would have met a CAT test (cats removed)

Opinions - is my theory plausible?


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

i have been watching this adam, i have the same issue

leakdown is good, compression is good, blue smoke on boost...

i built it myself and i checked everything

2 weeks ago i changed the turbos but i still have a very small amount of smoke


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## andy42uk (Sep 17, 2005)

Just a quick simple question for Adam Kindness and T.F.S. :-
What pistons are you using?

Andy.


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

JE with small gapping

if it was that though it would do it when warming up (during piston slap) i guess..


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## kennyc (Aug 25, 2005)

Think he was using OS Giken pistons IIRC


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## princess skyla (Oct 11, 2007)

we had very simailar problem in january this year.we were of to the pod just come off the motorway wen they car spat the bigest flame out blue black smoke.we carried on to the pod maybe thinking we had lost the turbos.
we still raced her four times before going home only because the marshall said call it a day as we cant see you go up the track noe more, got home compresion tested to out need new engine.
so now thor racing are building us a rb30 ,cant wait!!


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

I have the same problem but on an to4r. Blue smoke on boost but not under any other driving conditions. I have rebuilt the bottom end and the head has been rebuilt+modded before that. 

I have no oil passing through the breather system at all as i have made me a fanta catch tank and there is nothing entering it at all.

I was wondering if it was my turbo blowing by oil or where i don't normally come on boost and theres loads of soot sitting in the exhaust.

I cant keep my eyes on my mirror all the time as the torque starts ripping my head off


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

TBH ill just let mine develop and than address it when its a problem


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

our is a problem on track.... it doesnt smoke on the road.

I emptied a fair amount of oil out of the old IC last time 

Pistons.. Trust forged, 0.5mm bigger, bore to suit.


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

if you drain from the intercooler then surely it has to be letting by at the turbo? (provided breather to rear turbos has been disconnected)


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

see

Video of Video 2 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

and 

Video of Video 3 - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

not good

AND

Skylines vs EVOs Trackday - Knockhill - October 2007


incar viewing our skyline from behind. about halfway through i think..


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

yup... hence me saying that what i think the problem is. 

Breather is vented to atmosphere and blocked on the inlet side


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Yo have you removed the pvc valve and plugged it, then vent that pipe to atmosphere and block the one that recircs it to the turbos.

I was told to do this by abbey as my breather system was completely blocked and the engine was whistling. 

Now its fine


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

did you install extra oil line restrictors? I'm finding thick oil sludge in my intercooler pipes. God knows what's in the intercooler itself, I don't think it's ever been removed since it was installed at the factory in 1991!


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

PCV is fine i think (i'm not 100% as it was my GF that told me it closed when sucked... but also when blown.... no dirty comments)

I have a catch can with two intakes waiting to go on, but i'm in Africa just now


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

Toby: Not yet.... I'm a bit miffed on that issue too. HybridConnection say they arent needed, as do other sources. A lot of other folk say they are.

The lines have some sort of restriction in them, but maybe only enough for std oil pump pressures. I'm running a Nismo oil pump.

I guess i'll get them installed once the turbo's are off for inspection.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I'm getting a Tomei pump put in, and I'm running a JUN pump which flows just as much. I have the restrictors in hand, just need to get those little buggers in there. I'm hoping that the oil seals are not blown, but rather simply "weeping" and will be perfect once oil pressure is reduced to a consistent 2 bars.


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## Ian C (Jun 3, 2003)

Adam, did you resolve this?


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

yeh, it seemed to get cleared up after i cleaned up all the oil breathers and fitted a catch tank (with the PCV being blocked off completly)


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