# Imitation wheels vs genuine wheel discussion..



## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Being a member of may car forums over the years I'v notice on most forum there is a divide when coming to choose wheels for cars. Between genuine wheels and imitation wheels ie rays vs rota.. Now why is that there always seem to be haters of these so called imitation wheels on every forum I don't get it , I mean if uk time attack cars use Rotas and xxrs there defiantly good enough for my road car and also half the price..


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

Would you buy a copy watch, shoes or handbag (for your missus)?

That's why I don't buy copies, it's the principal of it all.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

Buy what you want it's your money. There are loads of threads on this. Difference between forged/cast etc. rota are cheap for a reason, not to mention the weight difference etc. also they rip off designs from companies that have spent the money on R and D etc.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

There will always be those that just cannot see past the big, established names.....however these same big, established brands were minnows at one stage too.
With regard to wheels there is a perception that Rota are of a much poorer quality than Rays/Volk etc with images (always the same 1 or 2 i might add!!) that do the rounds showing cracked rims. It then transpires that these particular rims failed under some pretty hairy circumstances which even big branded wheels would have struggled to shake off, if at all!

While there IS a big difference between actual manufacturing processes e.g cast vs forged or 'Motorsport' vs non motorsport wheels that is not what is being asked. I would suspect that Rota manufacture wheels to a certain standard as with the majority of wheel manufacturers so i would have no qualms amout using Rotas on my track car...

However, im sure we will see the 'usual' pics posted up and folks willing to eat their limbs before buying Rota et al....

TT


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

I'm sure they're perfectly safe. I know the pictures you mean and I will wait for them with baited breath!

They still rip off people's designs which I think is a bit off.

You don't see Williams F1 team using rota.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

I smashed a set of Regamasters so hard that I bent the rear subframe, 2 toe arms, 2 lower rear arms and cracked a driveshaft on my old S14A. The Regas held up enough to hold air and drive home on (despite being little more than scrap) thanks to being high quality (and expensive) wheels. I dare say the Rota Slipstream equivalents wouldn't have withstood the impact as well.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Gaz. said:


> Would you buy a copy watch, shoes or handbag (for your missus)?
> 
> That's why I don't buy copies, it's the principal of it all.


Thing is though, there are certain wheel designs that are popular and its only logical to assume ANY wheel manufacturer is going to make something that folks will buy. To out and out label them as copies is pretty questionable TBH...
You look at Work, Rays, SSR, BBS etc and you will see the same patterns over and over again. So, I would suggest its a case of offering something popular to the market as opposed to blatantly ripping off someone elses design, which to be fair THEY probably took from someone else anyway!!

Also, just had a quick look on the Rota site and they would seem to have a decent quality control and manufacturing. They batch test using modern methods (x-ray etc) and also heat treat the wheels so again....i would ask the naysayers exactly WHAT issue is it they have with Rota???

TT


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Yes I get that there forged wheels and generaly a lot stronger , but most of us will only ever use these wheels for the road so they will never be used to the same stress levels or be used with that much driving aggression or for trying to save weight they will never make a difference on a road car, how ever I also understand the argument about them copying from another manufacturer .. are they identical ?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Gaz. said:


> I smashed a set of Regamasters so hard that I bent the rear subframe, 2 toe arms, 2 lower rear arms and cracked a driveshaft on my old S14A. The Regas held up enough to hold air and drive home on (despite being little more than scrap) thanks to being high quality (and expensive) wheels. I dare say the Rota Slipstream equivalents wouldn't have withstood the impact as well.


Im afraid 'dare say' doesnt really cut it as hard evidence......

And is is my point...folks have formed an assumption that MAY or MAY NOT be accurate. Unless you could swap your Rega's for Rotas and go and recreate EXACTLY the same accident under the SAME conditions then speculation is worth NOTHING....

Im not on any particular 'side' of this argument. I dont own Rotas but it DOES wind me up how folks come to conclusions based on 0 evidence..

TT


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## andrew186 (May 3, 2010)

just set out yourself a budget for wheels and buy the best wheel possible

i think the price differences alone are enough to make most peoples minds up

both imitation and genuine are capable of failing its just the luck of the draw


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

tarmac terror said:


> Im afraid 'dare say' doesnt really cut it as hard evidence......
> 
> And is is my point...folks have formed an assumption that MAY or MAY NOT be accurate. Unless you could swap your Rega's for Rotas and go and recreate EXACTLY the same accident under the SAME conditions then speculation is worth NOTHING....
> 
> ...


Regas are forged and Rotas are cast. Dare say cuts it enough with that fact added 

Folks can buy whatever the hell they like, I'm happy with buying the real deal.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

andrew186 said:


> just set out yourself a budget for wheels and buy the best wheel possible


So define 'best' for me if you will......In your opinion.

TT


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## andrew186 (May 3, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> So define 'best' for me if you will......In your opinion.
> 
> TT


set a budget, then do your home work

does this need explaining?

imagine you're buying something, say.. a vacuum cleaner

first you decide how much you want to spend, so say £300

then you google/read/ask people/research (this is the homework bit) and along with that you add your own assumptions and decide that the Dyson Animal X999 at £300 is the best


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

Rota issues for me are:

Plagiarism
Weight
Target market. (Every chav and his sister)
Questionable construction and strength (rumours don't start from nowhere)

And personally I've put a lot of time effort and cash into my car to get it to what it is today, I have Nismo wheels and Advans and neither cost me more than a new set of Rota, in fact less for a much higher quality wheel.

Another thing on cost is that you can pick up decent wheels for less than rota. R34 wheels for example are made by BBS and I'm sure they're not pony.


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## drewzer (Jun 22, 2009)

Yet to see volk or rota buy each others wheels, test them to destruction and broadcast the results! 

Still wouldn't stop all this bull anyway!


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

willrobdon said:


> You don't see Williams F1 team using rota.


BBS, Enkei, Rays, O.Z. Racing are the ones that I remember seeing on F1 cars of the past decade.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

Gaz. said:


> BBS, Enkei, Rays, O.Z. Racing are the ones that I remember seeing on F1 cars of the past decade.


Exactly.


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Theres no need to make this personal, the fact of the matter if these wheels are used on racing/time attack cars /drift cars they can't be that bad also people saying would you buy a fake Rolex not really the same comparison in my opinion, one because they have different brand names, there for compleatly different wheel


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

I wouldn't want to put Rotas on a car that's running 450bhp or any power for that matter...I've seen some pretty horrible cracking on people's rims ... They are absolutely no doubt poorer quality than the originals.

why would you take a chance on a pretty fundamental part of your car? Thing that I can't get my head round is there price now...it seems they are changing hands not that far off original rims....second hand off course...


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Yes and I'm really sure BBs rays Volk oz would but the same money and design effort it to producing there roads wheels you'd be paying 5 k per corner


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

knighty84 said:


> Theres no need to make this personal, the fact of the matter if these wheels are used on racing/time attack cars /drift cars they can't be that bad also people saying would you buy a fake Rolex not really the same comparison in my opinion, one because they have different brand names, there for compleatly different wheel


It's not hard to stick a set of Volk stickers on a set of Rotas though, and they'd look pretty convincing to a lot of people.

Drifting & Time Attack are amateur motorsports on tighter budgets, it's no surprise cheaper wheels are used. Hell, I've not seen Rota being used in Japan's Time Attack events.


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Your compleatly missing the point I'm saying if there good enough wheel to be running on our uk time attack cars and drift cars running well into 800bhp figures then why you it be such and issue to put them on 300-500 bhp road car that's not gonna see half of the stress of a track car


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

Other than kerbs on a circuit, I'd say the road is probably more stressful on wheels with the state of them these days.


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

So your saying 150+ speed , pulling big gs into corners is more stressful than doing the 70 on uk roads, to me that would be one more reason to cut costs because of the condition of uk roads for the replacement factor


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

150mph on smooth Tarmac isn't going to hurt a wheel like hitting a pothole at 70mph no! Especially with stiff suspension and low profile tyres with stiff sidewalls.


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

Still think they are shite, quality of coating is crap too and no matter if a drift car has them on as a sponsor for nowt/free...doesn't mean I will be putting them on my car....

anyways to help assist BBS LM gold centres ...these or the cheap equivalents?!Can't wait to get these on my 32 !!!!


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Very nice wheel, I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a set. I have done in the past and I can/could afford a set of rays over my Rotas but I don't see the point they do the same job I have never noticed the difference between the two sets and saved myself a few quid in the process and I'm also not worries about curbing them etc cause they cost peanuts in comparison


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## nailsgtr600 (Aug 2, 2007)

willrobdon said:


> I'm sure they're perfectly safe. I know the pictures you mean and I will wait for them with baited breath!
> 
> They still rip off people's designs which I think is a bit off.
> 
> You don't see Williams F1 team using rota.


At the end of the day we arnt running f1 cars! 
There is much worse alloys out there! 
Rota's will be fine! 
If you want them buy them!


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## ab20000 (Jun 30, 2012)

I can't justify the costs of new big name wheels esp with the mark up in the UK. I will always run a car I can afford and enjoy and not one that means I can't afford the other stuff I need/want.


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## ab20000 (Jun 30, 2012)

Also saying they rip-off designs, well possibly but then a six spoke wheel in aggressive offsets are always going to look similar no?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

blitzer_bhoy said:


> why would you take a chance on a pretty fundamental part of your car?


That reminds me of the argument about 'cheap' forged conrods. Folks were going daft about using Eagle and other unbranded rods and swearing blind that anyone using them would have catastrophic failure within seconds......never transpired.

There's no doubt that a certain fixation with brands exists and a fear that anything but 'brand X' will result in a fiery death. ...:chuckle:

At the end of the day folks buy what they're comfortable with. Some will NEVER buy anything other than the big names and thats their perogative. These folks will NEVER be convinced that anything less is remotely acceptable so there isnt any point in trying to convince them otherwise..

TT


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

^^^ No. not always, if they put in a bit of time and effort in to their creative side, they could very well do some amazing stuff, they obviously have enough of the tooling to make wheels. Its just easier to copy, simple.

Comparing TA and Drift teams using Rotas is probably more of a budget reason. Give the teams more money, im sure they would buy Rays etc. 

Also, if you look at many Japanese teams, (not 100% sure here and i dont spend that much time scouring for wheels pictures) many use Rays or similar 'name brand' wheels 

In the end, buy what you can afford. Dont bother comparing, there is no comparison. Pretty sure comparing fake watches to fake wheels is the same, if you need accurate time keeping, you invest in an accurate timepiece, if you need something that will work, you buy something that will work.


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

buy the wheels you want, who cares what other people thing

if you have 3k to splash on wheels, get RAYS, if you have 1k, get ROTA


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

I'm not "fixated" on brands I kind off like originality and not ripping other designs, If you've got a set of cheap wheels I'm not against that at all thats your choice and on your budget. I firmly believe you get what you pay for...

In the same way I don't think we can convince anyone buying cheap imitations that the originals are worth it.

Its probably not fair to make a comparison against original and cheaper copies, you wouldn't compare a fake watch with an original.


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## RonniNielsen (Jan 14, 2011)

https://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&...38,d.Yms&fp=7072b9c04c9ad37b&biw=1920&bih=963


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

I'll gladly take my Rota's off and put Volk TE37's on.

Someone give me the money to afford £650 a corner and it's a deal!

I think Rota's are fine however, mine have hardly any weight on them (well balanced wheels) where as some other alloys from so called "top brands" (I won't mention names) that I see in my line of work are stacked full of weight, sometimes up to 100gms!

I used my Rota's at Time Attack, I use them at track days and have driven over some deep potholes hard - It all depends on probability, luck of the draw, angles of impact and speed that attribute to a potential damaged wheel.

The wheel manufacturers would not be legally able to sell the wheels if they would all end up like the "horror pictures" that float around the forums.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

RonniNielsen said:


> https://www.google.dk/search?hl=da&...38,d.Yms&fp=7072b9c04c9ad37b&biw=1920&bih=963


Lol, bit sad that you posted that when most of those pictures aren't even Rota wheels!!!


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

Trev said:


> I'll gladly take my Rota's off and put Volk TE37's on.
> 
> Someone give me the money to afford £650 a corner and it's a deal!


I would argue against the cost argument, both my set of wheels Nismo (Rays) and my advans were less than £600 for the set. Like I said before R34 wheels are BBS and I bet you can get them cheaper than rota.


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## jambo 32gtr (Apr 1, 2009)

willrobdon said:


> I would argue against the cost argument, both my set of wheels Nismo (Rays) and my advans were less than £600 for the set. Like I said before R34 wheels are BBS and I bet you can get them cheaper than rota.


Yes you keep going on about 34 rims being BBS but have you thought that everyone might not want those wheels.I say get wat you want or you can afford


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

It's just an example. There are plenty of others like 350z or 370z wheels are rays. I'm just making the point that you can get decent wheels for the same if not less cash than rota. At the end of the day I'm not bothered what you buy.


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## nailsgtr600 (Aug 2, 2007)

Trev said:


> I'll gladly take my Rota's off and put Volk TE37's on.
> 
> Someone give me the money to afford £650 a corner and it's a deal!
> 
> ...



It's not the alloys they weight it's the tyres that unbalance the alloys!
I balance wheels all they time, and two of my rays needed weights where two didnt!


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## Profile (Jan 4, 2012)

CrysAk said:


> buy the wheels you want, who cares what other people thing
> 
> if you have 3k to splash on wheels, get RAYS, if you have 1k, get ROTA


Agree, there are a lot of owners on here with way too much cash to splash and where that's the case they'll likely go for the Ray's just so they can tell people they run them, even though their car sits in a garage most of its life. There are others on here without access to a monster budget who own a GTR because they like to drive it and, where that's the case, Rotas are fine. At the end of the day a GTR's for driving and if that means rolling on Rotas or not rolling at all, I know what I'd be buying....


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

What a rubbish argument. If you're that bothered about getting out and driving it instead of spending money, then leave it on what it came on. That's cheaper anyway.


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## Profile (Jan 4, 2012)

Gaz. said:


> What a rubbish argument. If you're that bothered about getting out and driving it instead of spending money, then leave it on what it came on. That's cheaper anyway.


....and if people want to do that its fine by me. Just saying that many who run Rays seem to look down on anyone that suggests purchasing a lesser wheel. I say purchase what you like that's within your budget and enjoy the drive.... 

PS. You run Rays right?


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## RonniNielsen (Jan 14, 2011)

ive got te37 on mine, the real deal! after having an accident, were i came "half" sideways over a kerb, and today i realised, after fixing up my car, i never even rebalanced them...

if that had been a rota wheel.... well.... lets just assume the outcome woulden have been the same.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

No. I run Desmond Regamasters. I have owned Enkeis, Works and BuddyClubs in the past though.

Rumour has it Rays now own the rights to Regamasters (they've been discontinued for a long long time) and will make you some if you have the money, although I've never seen anything official on that.

Like I've said, I couldn't care less what people want to buy. I just prefer to support the big names.


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## drewzer (Jun 22, 2009)

willrobdon said:


> I would argue against the cost argument, both my set of wheels Nismo (Rays) and my advans were less than £600 for the set. Like I said before R34 wheels are BBS and I bet you can get them cheaper than rota.


What sizes? And how do you know they haven't been repaired and if they are genuine?


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## gts-tom (Jun 14, 2010)

willrobdon said:


> I would argue against the cost argument, both my set of wheels Nismo (Rays) and my advans were less than £600 for the set. Like I said before R34 wheels are BBS and I bet you can get them cheaper than rota.


I'm not sure I'd be happy buying a second hand set of wheels, who knows what they've been through!


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## drewzer (Jun 22, 2009)

gts-tom said:


> I'm not sure I'd be happy buying a second hand set of wheels, who knows what they've been through!


my point exactly


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## gts-tom (Jun 14, 2010)

drewzer said:


> my point exactly


I know you bu**er I was just making my way through the thread and it didn't update to see your response. To be honest my comment was slightly facetious.


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Has anyone on here had a set of Rotas fail on them? And I don't mean a googled picture of a set

Seriously though, I did price up a set of the lovely BBS LMs and haggled but did not buy them. Priced up Rays and tried for some discount before Time Attack and ended up having two sets of Torque Drifts off Julian at RareRims. Can't remember how much they were but were a lot less than trade (thanks again for the sponsorship Julian)

Gave them some sh1t in Time Attack and on trackdays (video camera paused in chicanes with the bumping), sold the car and wheels are still on there after it has been treated to many trackdays. Would have loved the originals (RE30's?) but I had a budget for wheels, the tyres were more important and even more important was the engine internals. Other than the tyres, all parts still fine.
Run 17's on the track on my current car (Rotas in 18inch on the road) and was tempted to replace the 17 inch split rims this year but will get the tyres replaced as again they are more important. Interested in the comment of the "proper" wheels costing less than the Rotas. Let me know where from and I would be interested. If anyone wants to sell a set of Gold BBS LM's cheap, let me know:thumbsup:


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

*More money than sense...*



knighty84 said:


> Being a member of may car forums over the years I'v notice on most forum there is a divide when coming to choose wheels for cars. Between genuine wheels and imitation wheels ie rays vs rota.. Now why is that there always seem to be haters of these so called imitation wheels on every forum I don't get it , I mean if uk time attack cars use Rotas and xxrs there defiantly good enough for my road car and also half the price..


Badge snobbery at the end of the day. 

Used Japanese wheels are usually kerbed so you have to fork out for re-furbishment costs and on some of them you can't replicate the original finish i.e the bronze on the TE37's so they'd have to be re-furbished in a different colour...not very original then are they ? If you smash a wheel on a pot hole or a kerb then you've had it because the chances are the wheels are no longer in production.

People go on about wheel weights. Yes, lighters better. No, theres not actually a lot of difference in weight between a lot of original japanese rims and the lookalikes size for size. Also an 18" tyre weighs more than an 18" wheel and people don't generally pick tyres according to their weight do they ?

As for Rays being stronger etc. I've lost count of the number of Nismo GT1 wheels that have been advertised on here with weld repaired inner rims where they've cracked...

Personally I'd rather buy a set of new, readily available lookalikes so that I can easily get a replacement if one gets damaged and I'd spend the money I'd save on something actually useful for the car. It wouldn't be a Nismo 'Battery Kill' cigarette lighter for £90 or a £1000 strut brace. 

Seriously, if anyones got money burning a hole in their pocket...I've got some magic beans here. :chuckle:

Cheers

Stu


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

mambastu said:


> I'd spend the money I'd save on something actually useful for the car. It wouldn't be a Nismo 'Battery Kill' cigarette lighter for £90 or a £1000 strut brace


:chuckle: got to agree with you there...

Makes me laugh wheni read some of the comments when the latest, greatest strut brace is touted. I genuinely just dont get the whole expensive strut brace 'thing'.
Remember my very first strut brace.....a fivers worth of 30mm mild steel tube welded between the inner wings on my MKII Escort :chuckle:. You know what.....it did the job.

Dont even get me started on the £90 *** lighter 

TT


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## Jags (May 20, 2007)

Also with regards to the cast v forged debate its probably worth mentioning that a lot of OE wheels are cast. The 997 GT3 has cast wheels....


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Depends on the casting methods, not every cast wheel is cast the same way.


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## Jags (May 20, 2007)

Exactly


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

davewilkins said:


> Has anyone on here had a set of Rotas fail on them? And I don't mean a googled picture of a set


A couple of months ago a member on another local forum had their 2 week old Rota TE37 badly fail on a pot hole, got it replaced thinking it was a one off.
a couple weeks later the car was stolen and luckily (or not) another one failed.

Cast is not inherently bad and many other brands seem to be able to engineer their wheels to survive, but Rotas just have failure after failure.



Jags said:


> Also with regards to the cast v forged debate its probably worth mentioning that a lot of OE wheels are cast. The 997 GT3 has cast wheels....


Conversely every GTR from the last quarter of the century has come with forged wheels (BBS & Rays).


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

drewzer said:


> What sizes? And how do you know they haven't been repaired and if they are genuine?


17 x 9.5 for me. I know they're genuine by the weight for one and the fact that they fit over 355mm brakes and the stamps on the inside etc. I know they haven't been repaired due to knowing the history of one set and the colour match on the other would be difficult to replicate.

I appreciate that not everyone wants second hand wheels, understandably it's a chance you take and you need to make an informed decision. 

As for a £90 *** lighter, that's another thread all together!:thumbsup:


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## nailsgtr600 (Aug 2, 2007)

We will have a service history for wheels next! 
There is nothing wrong with buying a set of second hand wheels Aslong as they are inspected well before hand your fine surely?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

So another way of looking at it is, budget no object, which wheels would you prefer Rota or a Rays? 
(No I wouldn't worry about buying a set of second hand wheels and have done so on many occasions).

I think the approach Rain outlined is entirely sensible! After all there are many 'motorsport' parts that are extremely expensive, and a lot of cheaper alternatives. Wheels are no different IMHO.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Here's my 2 cents: I think most of work hard for our money. And, we then go and buy what for some of us is the car of our dreams. We either then keep buying quality parts to modify our cars, or we try to keep operating costs as low as possible by trying to modify as cheaply as possible (the ideal solution, of course, is to get the high quality parts at cheap prices...LOL).

Some of us who really stretched to buy the car, then want to emphasize looks over function, and choose to buy cheap rims. That's ok I think. So long as they know what they are doing and aren't kidding themselves that heavy cast knockoffs are the same as the lightweight forged original designs. Of course, there are then the few that slap on Rays stickers to try to pass their Rotas off as Rays - this, I have a problem with because this is misrepresentation by the car owner. (they copying of Rays wheels by other wheel makers, that's another issue, but I'm talking about why the owners).

Then, there are those of us owners who, choose to save up and buy the best. This isn't about being brand whores - rather, it's about understanding what these GT-Rs are about and trying to extract the best performance out of them (remember, the OEM were forged too). I for one refuse to compromise a) the engineering of these cars, b) my efforts in building the car I want, and c) my stance in not rewarding companies that produce knock-off products. The first two are important to me from a performance standpoint (looks are important too, but secondary to function). I've spent the money on a great car, I've spent hard earned money tuning the engine, installing a great suspension system, awesome brakes, etc. So why cheap out with heavy cast fakes wheels at this point? At least, this is my thinking. 

As for fakes/replicas - would anyone out there install a fake Tomei fuel pressure regulator on their tuned RB? What if it looked exactly the same? Or a fake HKS blow off valve? IF it looked the same and was made in a factory that promised "quality." Fake Recaros and Bride seats? In all of these cases, you may get lucky and nothing bad may happen - but you have to remember that the original manufacturers EARNED their brand names through R&D and consistent high quality and precision manufacturing - and yes this may cost more. But in high powered, fast cars like ours, I WANT to be sure everything works perfectly. Wheels included.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

If the fakers ever run the genuine manufacturers out of business, who would they copy off then?


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## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

TAZZMAXX said:


> If the fakers ever run the genuine manufacturers out of business, who would they copy off then?


This is the key issue here.

There is a market for budget/affordable wheels, the problem is many of these brands fail to create their own designs.


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

So what about if you have the money to afford a set of rays over Rotas but choose to buy Rotas because the owner will never tell any difference, so sees no point in buying a wheel which is 400+ a corner difference, lets face it how many of you would notice the difference in performance ???? None would , thats the whole point.. For example if you had two cars side by side exactly the same spec but one had rota set up one had rays set up, was asked to do 50 laps of a track you wouldn't even know which is which.. I can see what people are saying about because there forged there stronger but I'm sure if these wheels were classed as unsafe they would never even be allowed on cars full stop


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Sidious said:


> This is the key issue here.
> 
> There is a market for budget/affordable wheels, the problem is many of these brands fail to create their own designs.


Totally agree with you here


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

knighty84 said:


> So what about if you have the money to afford a set of rays over Rotas but choose to buy Rotas because the owner will never tell any difference, so sees no point in buying a wheel which is 400+ a corner difference, lets face it how many of you would notice the difference in performance ???? None would , thats the whole point.. For example if you had two cars side by side exactly the same spec but one had rota set up one had rays set up, was asked to do 50 laps of a track you wouldn't even know which is which.. I can see what people are saying about because there forged there stronger but I'm sure if these wheels were classed as unsafe they would never even be allowed on cars full stop


it's not as black and white as safe and unsafe.

Like you mentioned it's about the owners, if the owner can't tell the difference, there's little point to doing it, however if the owner knows the difference between forged/cast, the weight and strength and has the money to get the genuine article, then that's also good.

i would of gone for varrstoen 200s (fake Te37's with more concave and dish, readily available in ANY size and colour and CHEAPPPPPP) , however found some Rays Nismo LMGT4's cheap to refurbish .. that will unfortunatel need spacers, but.. they would of cost me about the same as brand new vs200s/rota gtrs, and i get the prance around saying i have genuine wheels, which is a bonus ^^


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

About 12 years ago, along with a group of investors I spent weeks over the course of 2 years visiting different wheel factories in Japan & Asia with a view to helping them create a new brand in Japan. Despite a lot of research and considerable investment on their part, in the end for various market reasons the business idea never came to fruition, but in the process I learnt a lot about wheel manufacturing and quality, or not as the case may be...

There's a LOT of difference in quality & strength of construction between gravity cast wheels (Where molten alloy is poured into a ceramic cast, cooled then the raw billet is machined, painted, etc) & genuinely forged wheels. The forging process involves actually pressing very heated alloy into shape using thousands of tons of pressure and was originally developed for the aviation industry where high quality, strength & light weight are required. 
The machinery used for this method of production is huge, unique & quite amazing to see, but actually watching it work practically explains why forged wheels are so much more expensive than gravity cast. 

The result of forged wheels is uniform metallic structure with virtually guaranteed non porous construction. This uniformity not only makes the wheels stronger & therefore require less metal for the same strength, but also makes for wheels that are much easier to balance and require less weights. In some cases, no weights are required at all, provided the tyres are fitted in correct position relative to the valves - and tyres are of top quality.

By the same token, copies of forged wheel designs that are produced from gravity cast aluminium - are inherently weaker, because they're designed for less metallic volume - but only if it's forged. By having gravity cast then they may fail or may not - I'm not here to argue this, but what's absolutely clear is that forged is always better quality than cast for reasons explained above. 

Even low pressure casting (Which is better than simple gravity casting) is still not of nearly the same quality as forged, even though the finished products look the same - they're not.


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

I wonder if ppl would apply the same principle to modifying their cars turbos, pistons, rods, crank, bearings etc etc ....plenty available from China fake Tomei's, Nismo oil pumps, rings, pistons etc...

If its cheap it will do...I certainly wouldnt dream off it. when we visited Tomei for example last year, if you see the process and testing they go through, you know you are getting a extremely well engineered product and that's what your paying for.

put it this way when I was looking for my R33 GTR I was put off cars that had Rotas etc..


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## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

knighty84 said:


> So what about if you have the money to afford a set of rays over Rotas but choose to buy Rotas because the owner will never tell any difference, so sees no point in buying a wheel which is 400+ a corner difference, lets face it how many of you would notice the difference in performance ???? None would , thats the whole point.. For example if you had two cars side by side exactly the same spec but one had rota set up one had rays set up, was asked to do 50 laps of a track you wouldn't even know which is which.. I can see what people are saying about because there forged there stronger but I'm sure if these wheels were classed as unsafe they would never even be allowed on cars full stop


The best Rays wheels are among the lightest wheels on the market outside that of professional motorsport.

2-3 kilos LESS per wheel will equal much better suspension behavior and quicker acceleration.

Unsprung weight and rotational inertia is a vastly overlooked subject. 

But feel free to ignore all this and just buy cheap wheels, you will come back 10 years later and realise the above finally makes sense.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

You'd feel the difference between a heavy and a light set of wheels through the steering wheel. If you don't, you're probably missing your arms.


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Forgot to say that my previous set of wheels before I cut a sponsorship deal for two sets of wheels with RareRims were one set of Dymag Magnesium alloys. light enough to hold in the palm of your hand (with no tyre on) but which were the strongest wheels and which cracked?

Sometimes motorsport wheels do not last as long as they are engineered for light weight, short life span for teams with large budgets.

Interesting comment above about having the choice between second hand expensive alloys costing the same as brand new cheaper alloys.

I always would buy the second hand if not damaged as I would rather have the quality for the price. Brand new does not bother me or I would have a new car! Trouble is second hand selection is not a good selection as new as you are relying on people selling them on.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

blitzer_bhoy said:


> I wonder if ppl would apply the same principle to modifying their cars turbos, pistons, rods, crank, bearings etc etc ....plenty available from China fake Tomei's, Nismo oil pumps, rings, pistons etc...
> 
> If its cheap it will do...I certainly wouldnt dream off it. when we visited Tomei for example last year, if you see the process and testing they go through, you know you are getting a extremely well engineered product and that's what your paying for.
> 
> put it this way when I was looking for my R33 GTR I was put off cars that had Rotas etc..


But this is NOT the same situation as fake Tomei FPR's etc. The wheels we are discussing are not touting themselves as Genuine Rays TE37's for example. They are their own brand and are sold as such. They DO NOT come with fake Rays stickers or in fake Rays boxes.

Please be clear about what were discussing here....wheels that have a very similar DESIGN to Rays but which ARE NOT being passed off as Rays!!! The distinction is vitally important.

So as a thought....when HKS were starting out (as an example), do you think they just walked into a factory with the latest machinery, production and quality control techniques?? Do you also think that they were making innovative stuff from the outset?? I would suggest no and no. 
You have to start somewhere and I reckon that Rota are doing a good job. Remember, these aren't Chinese made wheels..there made in the Phillipines. A significant difference.

So, a question for all the big brand junkies.....with your point of view it would seem that no new players in the market would get a look in with you lot. If you associate quality with longevity of company then these new players, irrespective of their innovation or quality would not be given a second look and derided as 'cheap' or 'fake' crap. So, and im asking this genuinely....how can a new start-up company convince you to take them and their products seriously???

TT


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## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

this topic always make an impact.

no i would not buy "fake" wheels, by rota. i appreciate what they have done, basically create a category of wheel sector market for those who are on a budget but want the style of the big name brands

without Rays, Volk etc, Rota would not exist.

there are massive difference in the quality of the wheels

for those who choose rota, thats totally cool, everyone makes their own choice.

however we all know if budgets were not an issue then everyone would choose rays.

its got the point now that rays have to emboss and stamp their wheels in a variety of places to ensure that you cant just put a set of stickers on the wheels

fact is the price of rays wheels has not changed alot (in japan) just the exchange rate.

few years back we were doing WORK wheels for approx £1k delivered for 18" (when the rate was good)

everyone can buy what they wish, but when it comes to wheels & brakes i would rather buy the real deal (no not because we supply them, just out of principle)

Rota do not come up with their own design, they just rip of the styles out there.

to me its like making out its something its not.

what really amazes me is that people would rather have "bride" or "takata" stitched into their fake seats than think about safety


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Please be clear about what were discussing here....wheels that have a very similar DESIGN to Rays but which ARE NOT being passed off as Rays!!! The distinction is vitally important.
> 
> Remember, these aren't Chinese made wheels..there made in the Phillipines. A significant difference.
> 
> ...


The designs from Rota are similar enough for anybody to know what they're clearly imitating. And regardless of how you may perceive it - there are strength differences between genuine forged & gravity cast...

Whether they're made in China, Phillipines, Thailand, or Japan, a gravity cast wheel is made by pouring molten aluminium into a ceramic mould, machining & finishing. So where are these "significant differences"?? :chuckle:


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Gaz. said:


> You'd feel the difference between a heavy and a light set of wheels through the steering wheel. If you don't, you're probably missing your arms.


This is completely true. When I switched from my OEM 17 inch wheels to 18 TE37s, I could immediately tell the difference. The car was much more agile.

And this difference is between FORGED, lightweight wheels. I shudder to think of all those people who stick with heavy cast wheels, and the stress this is placing on their chassis components...


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> So, a question for all the big brand junkies.....with your point of view it would seem that no new players in the market would get a look in with you lot. If you associate quality with longevity of company then these new players, irrespective of their innovation or quality would not be given a second look and derided as 'cheap' or 'fake' crap. So, and im asking this genuinely....how can a new start-up company convince you to take them and their products seriously???
> 
> TT


That's easy. Do what Hyundai did. When they first sold cars in the US, these cars were essentially copies of old Mitsubishis, using Mitsubishi engines, or parts made UNDER LICENSE (ie legitimate copies). Once they established a foothold, they then began to create their own designs, and do their own engineering. Now, their cars rival or better Japanese cars (in some areas).

So if Rota wants to be taken seriously, they need to STOP copying others, invest in proper technology, and come up with original designs. If the major players can come up with new designs, colors, configurations,etc. year after year - even if these are incremental improvements - then why can't the people at Rota?


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## [email protected] (May 19, 2006)

akasakaR33 said:


> This is completely true. When I switched from my OEM 17 inch wheels to 18 TE37s, I could immediately tell the difference. The car was much more agile.
> 
> And this difference is between FORGED, lightweight wheels. I shudder to think of all those people who stick with heavy cast wheels, and the stress this is placing on their chassis components...


Don't want to sound like a pedant but I thought the OEM wheels were forged? The R32 OEM wheels definitely are! Therefore they should be lighter than an 18" wheel that was bigger/wider & forged?

Not questioning that there was a difference but maybe the difference in tyres was a bigger factor?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> The designs from Rota are similar enough for anybody to know what they're clearly imitating. And regardless of how you may perceive it - there are strength differences between genuine forged & gravity cast...
> 
> Whether they're made in China, Phillipines, Thailand, or Japan, a gravity cast wheel is made by pouring molten aluminium into a ceramic mould, machining & finishing. So where are these "significant differences"?? :chuckle:


But Rota are not marketing their wheels as being forged are they??
No one is arguing the differences in manufacturing techniques...some of the big names use different methods themselves and charge a premium for the forged products. BBS use pressure casting as well as for example....

Difference in country of manufacture is that if it were China you would see wheels being passed off as the 'genuine' article with clearly fake stickers and boxes with Rays splattered all over the place. Rota are not doing this...they are branded as Rota and NOT being sold as Genuine Rays etc irrespective of how close they may look to each other in terms of design.

Obviously those that sell Rays, Work, BBS etc have a vested interest in making sure people continue to buy big £££ wheels and use irrelevant arguement to try and strengthen their position.

In summary then....
1.Yes there ARE different manufacturing techniques. NO, rota are not made by forging but have never stated they were anyway :chairshot
2. Rota are branded as Rota and not being passed of as any genuine brand :chairshot

Lets at least agree on that (as what i have said above is undisputable)...

TT


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## EAndy (Dec 13, 2011)

The fact one company is deemed as copying the other is a simple fact of life, legally they have to have 6 differences on the wheels but this could be as simple as valve location, stamping on the wheels, etc. Over on the M3 Forums people buy CSL Reps for £400 for 4 as they don't want to spent £750 a wheel on genuine ones and in order to buy (although easy to get around) you have to present BMW with a valid CSL VIN.

Its a fact of life that if you bring out a product and there is mass demand then most likely someone else is going to appear and follow selling the same products with a twist / slight change. 

For example 1937 chap comes up with a fast-food concept for drink and hamburgers by 1953 this is known as McDonalds, 1 year later 1954 Burger King appears doing same thing just adding a piece of bacon to a burger.

1975 McDee's opens first drive-through, 1976 Burger King follows only with there one they make 3 mistakes per order instead of McDees 2 just to be different etc.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Steve[email protected] said:


> Don't want to sound like a pedant but I thought the OEM wheels were forged? The R32 OEM wheels definitely are! Therefore they should be lighter than an 18" wheel that was bigger/wider & forged?
> 
> Not questioning that there was a difference but maybe the difference in tyres was a bigger factor?


No worries Steve. Ok nerd time - the OEM R33 wheels are indeed forged, but they DO weigh more than the 18 inch Rays TE37.

IIRC the R33 wheels were about 9.5kg each.

TE37
Volk Rims Wheel Weight | Measurespeed

18x9.5 = 8.3kg


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

My Opel Manta came with MIM Alpine wheels. I have never seen anyone slating MIM for copying Alpina.
The big question on this thread is do you need forged on a road or track car?
Potholes are probably my biggest enemy.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

davewilkins said:


> My Opel Manta came with MIM Alpine wheels. I have never seen anyone slating MIM for copying Alpina.
> The big question on this thread is do you need forged on a road or track car?
> Potholes are probably my biggest enemy.


Indeed....no one sems to complain either about the many unashamed replicas of things like Minilites/ revolution etc..

I think the word replica is a better description of things like Rotas..they are NOT copies or 'fakes'...

TT


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Agreed the thing that gets me the most is people saying I'd never dream of putting "Rotas" on my car because there crap, why because I'm sure you would never tell the difference if they were on your road car and that's the point, to me it's snobbery more than practicality, it's totally different when someone says I prefer the real deal because I want the best for my car not because a certain wheel is shit, when it does virtually the same thing for half the cost, how can that be crap?


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## KAT (Apr 7, 2011)

I've seen loads of nice wheels in Thailand like these that were on a taxi I was in

They were selling them in shops like these

And Brembo.s

I even seen a nice Gtr

All genuine of course :chuckle:

I have used both types of wheel, in fact I have a set of Rota's just now in my shed that were on my Evo 9 for a while. It wouldn't bother me on the road but I would rather stick with better made stuff on the track. 
I bought std. Evo 5 Oz wheels for track use as soon as I got my Evo 5 track car and just bought a set of Evo 6 Oz wheels for it, I got them all for a lot cheaper than a set of new Rota's.
J


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## [email protected] (May 19, 2006)

akasakaR33 said:


> No worries Steve. Ok nerd time - the OEM R33 wheels are indeed forged, but they DO weigh more than the 18 inch Rays TE37.
> 
> IIRC the R33 wheels were about 9.5kg each.
> 
> ...


That's nice to know, shows how good a quality wheel can be I suppose! Maybe I won't be as worried about going up to 18's if that's the case


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

lol at this copying "logic"

so if i were to copy someones homework, and then put my name at the bottom, it's not copying?

(sorry for school analogy, but was first one that came to me..)


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

KAT said:


> I have used both types of wheel, in fact I have a set of Rota's just now in my shed that were on my Evo 9 for a while. It wouldn't bother me on the road but I would rather stick with better made stuff on the track.
> I bought std. Evo 5 Oz wheels for track use as soon as I got my Evo 5 track car and just bought a set of Evo 6 Oz wheels for it, I got them all for a lot cheaper than a set of new Rota's.
> J


Forgot to say, Rotas for the bumpy roads, 17inch OZ split rims for the track.
Don't use 18inch wheels for the track as the R32 is better on the 17's.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Difference in country of manufacture is that if it were China you would see wheels being passed off as the 'genuine' article with clearly fake stickers and boxes with Rays splattered all over the place. Rota are not doing this...they are branded as Rota and NOT being sold as Genuine Rays etc irrespective of how close they may look to each other in terms of design.
> 
> Lets at least agree on that (as what i have said above is undisputable)...
> 
> TT


LOL, so according to you, the difference between Chinese made wheels and Thai Rotas boils down to stickers and branding.... 

Assuming you're right I'd put it to you - there's not a lot of difference between the two at all. :chuckle:


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## KAT (Apr 7, 2011)

davewilkins said:


> Forgot to say, Rotas for the bumpy roads, 17inch OZ split rims for the track.
> Don't use 18inch wheels for the track as the R32 is better on the 17's.


Its on my Evo 5 I'm using them but I feel the same way about 18" wheels on that.
I'm using a set of nice looking 18" that were on the car when I got it when I'm on the road, even on small round about's at low speeds they rub the arch liners so I wouldn't try them on a track. 
I know that the liners can be cut but I don't see the point when 17's are fine + the tyres are cheaper 
J


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Some years ago Option magazine did a comparison between 17's & 18's. It was found the side walls would move less on 18's of course and ultimately this would give slightly better lap times if the car is used for say - time attack. For racing though where there's sustained high speed ise, the 18's would overheat quicker than 17's - so it can depend on what the car's to be used for. Time attack cars in Japan rarely run on 17's if 18's are also applicable.
There's not much in it either way, really although 33's look a bit under endowed on 17's...


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Some years ago Option magazine did a comparison between 17's & 18's. It was found the side walls would move less on 18's of course and ultimately this would give slightly better lap times if the car is used for say - time attack. For racing though where there's sustained high speed ise, the 18's would overheat quicker than 17's - so it can depend on what the car's to be used for. Time attack cars in Japan rarely run on 17's if 18's are also applicable.
> There's not much in it either way, really although 33's look a bit under endowed on 17's...


We could have quite a few off-shoot threads from this one!

Interesting you mention the Option test Miguel.

Rod Bell advised me years ago to run 17's but I ignored him and always ran 18's:thumbsup:

My current car is no where near my old car handling modification wise, but feels a lot more stable and easier to drive. I am quite hard on the tyres and my 888's seem to be a lot better at not "going off" compared to the old car. I was putting this down to the 17's but I may be wrong of course. 
As Kat mentioned, the tyres are cheaper and I may even try copies instead of Toyos/Dunlops/Yokos this year


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

:chuckle: About a decade ago I changed from 18's down to 17's on the RX-7 because the recently introduced S-tyres at the time weren't yet readily available in 18's and there was the cost issue to consider too. I still run it on 17's to this day, although when they're worn out I have some 18's to go back on. It's more because I prefer the look of 18's than a greatly significant performance improvement, TBH. And yes, the RX-7 runs forged rims....
Rota of the designs available in UK aren't available for sale in Japan. Can't possibly imagine why not!! :bawling: :nervous:


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

I bought genuine TE37s for my car, I wanted the best I could get for my car. It's that simple. I wanted the strongest wheel with the least amount of weight.




I don't understand why people buy these expensive cars and then put cheap wheels on them. You bought a high performance car that isn't anywhere near cheap, and you bring it down by taking the stock forged wheels off and throwing cheap and heavy cast wheels on it. These same people will spend a wheelbarrow full of money on the engine and neglect the rest of the car. Wheels are like shoes; they tell a lot about the person using them. Some just want a cheap shoe to use and throw away and others want a quality shoe that fits right and lasts a long time. At the end of the day it is your car and you can do whatever you want with it.




I also don't understand why people buy 10 inch wide wheels and put 245s on them. That's for another thread though.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

yodookie said:


> I bought genuine TE37s for my car, I wanted the best I could get for my car. It's that simple. I wanted the strongest wheel with the least amount of weight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Without trying to be too argumentative there are better wheels than TE37s. Pretty sure that they cost a fair wedge more too. If I could justify some carbon Dymags I'd be all over them 

It's perfectly possible to get cast wheels which are lighter than the OEM R33 GTR wheels say. I seem to remember that the Enkei RPF1 (cast) being a good bit lighter than many forged rims (BBS). It just happens that most Rays wheels are so good that they make others (like Rota) look bad. I have a feeling that a BBS forged wheel is approximately the same weight as a Rota cast wheel of similar size. I hope/assume that the BBS rim is stronger than the Rota, if not you'd have to question what is wrong with the BBS rim.

I don't think that the Rotas are heavy for cast rims. I'd guess that they are very similar to other similar (price/market segment) products in terms of weight and perhaps strength. The problem with them is how similar they are to existing designs.


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## EPRacing (Jul 3, 2007)

just to put a note to this. if rotas are that bad they wouldn't be qualified or be able to pass the JWL (Japan Light Wheel Alloy) and VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association) testings.

But they did and have all those stamps on all their wheels so the quality itself has meet all the requirements that has been set by those associations and approved by it.

To me those requirements they meet means much more to me than what ever brand or shape they are, if rota or rays or any wheels don't have them I wouldn't touch it I don't care what they are or how expensive they are or how the hell they are made as they has not been tested by the appropriate vehicle associations for road safety.

But to me I personally dont think rota is at the bottom of the market, I would say they are more in the middle of the market and they have the decency to get their products tested and meet the requirements needed.


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## Asphalt Jet (Oct 20, 2008)

*Leave casting for Jewelry!*

When pouring metal consider this; the probability of introducing a defect is very high, pockets may form, porosity may exist, hot cracking as the metal cools, or cooling as the metal pours, no grain flow or directional strength etc. etc. etc.

Forged is lighter, stronger, more reliable, and comes with tranquil piece of mind knowing you have the best.

Why skimp on wheels when you have dumped every last penny you have, to build a gazillion HP engine?

In the off chance or as others have said if you get the luck of the draw and your Rotas happen to fail on you, and you kiss that 40, 50, 60, or 70 thousand dollar GTR good by, will this question haunt you. 

Would I be crying about my writing off my GTR if had went a head and got the real deal?


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## Asphalt Jet (Oct 20, 2008)

EPRacing said:


> just to put a note to this. if rotas are that bad they wouldn't be qualified or be able to pass the JWL (Japan Light Wheel Alloy) and VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association) testings.
> 
> But they did and have all those stamps on all their wheels so the quality itself has meet all the requirements that has been set by those associations and approved by it.
> 
> ...


My experience with Japan thus far is, you can get what ever piece of paper or stamp you need, if your willing to part with your Yen. 

That said Most GTR owners in Japan Run either RAYS, BBS, NISMO or Stock Rims, there are the few oddballs though.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Pretty much every wheel factory in China & S.E. Asia has JWL molded on the rims they manufacture. Some are genuinely JWL approved, some are not. 

There's no policing of Japanese standards outside of Japan since it doesn't really apply to other countries.

I can't imagine why Rota would get Japanese approval for their wheels in Japan as they don't really have a presence in the Japanese market. So obtaining the approval for each of their designs in Japan would appear pointless.
Certainly none of the RAYS design copies appear here for sale, branded as Rota. In fact, I haven't seen any "Rota" wheels marketed in Japan. Just doing a search for Rota on say Yahoo auctions this is all I can find (Compare to RAYS to see the difference in volume).

http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/...&n=20&f=0x2&ioneid=SI_552394272_18128525192_1

http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/...-1&oq=&ei=UTF-8&slider=0&n=20&tab_ex=commerce


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

Asphalt Jet said:


> Would I be crying about my writing off my GTR if had went a head and got the real deal?


Think high speed wheel failure... it's not the GTR you'd be worried about writing off


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

EPRacing said:


> just to put a note to this. if rotas are that bad they wouldn't be qualified or be able to pass the JWL (Japan Light Wheel Alloy) and VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association) testings.
> 
> But they did and have all those stamps on all their wheels so the quality itself has meet all the requirements that has been set by those associations and approved by it.
> 
> ...


Nice try.

Unfortunately, the JWL mark is self-tested and self-reported by the manufacturer. The VIA mark is indeed granted to those wheels where an accredited third party organization has tested the wheel and it has passed.

Here is the link, in English, that explains this, from the Japan Light Alloy Wheel Testing Council:
VIA Registration of Aluminum Wheel

Wheels that also have the VIA mark, will have a sticker on the inside of the wheel that is written in Japanese as on page 86 of this pdf:

http://www.jawa.jp/download/chap04.pdf

The JWL and VIA marks are designed to inform the Japanese market and consumer only. Hence, a wheel not sold in Japan, like ROTA, doesn't need the VIA mark or the JWL mark, really. See #10 in the Q&A from the first link - the English is poor, but from reading the original Japanese, what they are trying to say is that VIA labeling is for products made to be sold for the Japanese market. Since ROTA isn't sold in the Japanese market, I fail to see how a VIA certification does anything for them, unless it's to compete with Japanese brand wheels that do have the VIA certification, in markets outside of Japan.

Conclusion? 
Well, there are 2:
1) ROTA indeed submits all of their VIA marked wheels to JWTC and JAWA and they are certified;
2) ROTA does a great job copying Japanese wheels, to the point where they even copy the VIA inscription!

I'm trying to find a list of all VIA approved wheels. Will follow up on this.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

Cris said:


> Without trying to be too argumentative there are better wheels than TE37s. Pretty sure that they cost a fair wedge more too. If I could justify some carbon Dymags I'd be all over them
> 
> It's perfectly possible to get cast wheels which are lighter than the OEM R33 GTR wheels say. I seem to remember that the Enkei RPF1 (cast) being a good bit lighter than many forged rims (BBS). It just happens that most Rays wheels are so good that they make others (like Rota) look bad. I have a feeling that a BBS forged wheel is approximately the same weight as a Rota cast wheel of similar size. I hope/assume that the BBS rim is stronger than the Rota, if not you'd have to question what is wrong with the BBS rim.
> 
> I don't think that the Rotas are heavy for cast rims. I'd guess that they are very similar to other similar (price/market segment) products in terms of weight and perhaps strength. The problem with them is how similar they are to existing designs.



I should have said 'Best wheels for my car without going super exotic'. :chuckle: To me they were the best balance of strength, weight, and price.


I'm sure you can probably get cast wheels in 17x9 that weigh about the same as the stock R33s(they are about 22 pounds each), but they probably won't be as strong.


When I was researching wheels I was actually surprised at what some of the wheels that are regarded as "light" actually weigh. For example, the BBS LMs I was looking at weighed about 24 pounds each and the XXR copy also weighed about the same. I'm sure that the LM is stronger, but I didn't think (IMO) that it was worth all the extra money for the LM's. IMO, there are some wheels/brands that are regarded as high quality and demand a high price that don't make much sense. Also for example, that same set of BBS LM's was going used for 1.5-2k US dollars when you can buy the whole set of XXR's in the same size for 500-600 brand new.



In the end, I think it just comes down to what purpose you have for your car. If your GT-R spends most of its time parked and barely on the road and never see's any track time, you will probably be fine with a knock off. If you are using the car to its full potential or tracking it, that's when you should really invest in good wheels and rubber.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

What about wheel nuts? Who used Rays wheel nuts? Of any aluminium wheel nuts?
If you are going to have a failure, it's most likely going to be a wheel nut failure as was seen at the high speed runs in Japan in the R35.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

As not all of his wheels came off and other R35 GT-R's plus many other high performance cars have run without problems using aluminium nuts, it's possible the team forgot to torque the nuts before use, which would explain why that particular wheel came loose.
Not wanting to embarrass the team when making the video they blamed the wheel nuts, I reckon.. 

Besides - if Aluminium nuts would fail on R35 GT-R's, then what's to say aluminium wheels wouldn't get worn away on the bevels if the cause was indeed use of aluminium - after all, even the original rims are made of aluminium. 

Japanese don't like to lose face... so that's likely to be the reason why they blamed the problem on wheel nuts of no brand, geddit? 

Like Toni said this morning - Don't believe everything you see on the internet.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> As not all of his wheels came off and other R35 GT-R's plus many other high performance cars have run without problems using aluminium nuts, it's possible the team forgot to torque the nuts before use, which would explain why that particular wheel came loose.
> Not wanting to embarrass the team when making the video they blamed the wheel nuts, I reckon..
> 
> Besides - if Aluminium nuts would fail on R35 GT-R's, then what's to say aluminium wheels wouldn't get worn away on the bevels if the cause was indeed use of aluminium - after all, even the original rims are made of aluminium.
> ...


Indeed, my point is that the nuts are more likely to cause failure than wheels.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Asphalt Jet said:


> When pouring metal consider this; the probability of introducing a defect is very high, pockets may form, porosity may exist, hot cracking as the metal cools, or cooling as the metal pours, no grain flow or directional strength etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Forged is lighter, stronger, more reliable, and comes with tranquil piece of mind knowing you have the best.
> 
> ...


So you've looked at the rays web site and seen all their cast wheels? The one fitted to racing cars?


http://http://www.rays-msc.com/html/products.html
Must be death traps?


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## MIKEGTR (Jul 8, 2005)

I know this isn't an exact example or indeed a safety related one:

But do people buy a Rolex because it keeps better time than a Casio or because it is what it is and is a status symbol?

If I buy £100 pair of Nike trainers will they be better than the £25 pair of hi tecs? 

You pays your money, you's make your choice


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## tranq (May 31, 2009)

Miguel - Newera said:


> As not all of his wheels came off and other R35 GT-R's plus many other high performance cars have run without problems using aluminium nuts, it's possible the team forgot to torque the nuts before use, which would explain why that particular wheel came loose.
> Not wanting to embarrass the team when making the video they blamed the wheel nuts, I reckon..
> 
> Besides - if Aluminium nuts would fail on R35 GT-R's, then what's to say aluminium wheels wouldn't get worn away on the bevels if the cause was indeed use of aluminium - after all, even the original rims are made of aluminium.
> ...


Hi Miguel and others.
It also happened to me, and at this point i think its better to post it, to let other people know.

I used Rays Aluminium wheel nuts i bought from Newera.
Only posting the source so we all know for sure they are genuine.
After buying i had them for lets say 18 months on my R34 and i never had any kind of problem. Car was only used on street.

I installed Federal semi-slicks on my OEM R34 wheels, put them on my R33, and got to a track.



Did about 35 laps that day, lets say a total of 90 miles. At the end i noticed some noise a few times but i tought that were stones hitting the underside.
After finishing trackday, i got to a highway and home. I noticed a noise and i tought it is coming from my rear diff and that i have problems with it. The noise got louder and louder with time, and i had to drop my traveling speed. Was with my friend and we stoped at a gas station. We started looking at it, and from close it didnt sound as it would be the rear diff. We checked the nuts and all nuts on all wheels were loose you could tighten most of them by hand.

I tightened all wheels by myself (prior to trackday), so there is now way they werent tight. My mistake was not checking them over at the track day.

When we called a friend and told him that we had problems, tought it would be the diff, his automatic answer was but you had aluminium nuts? So i think problems of that kind arent that rare.

When i saw this movie first after my expirience, i first wondered how can a firm tuning cars not know this. As stated above, only writing this because it could save a wheel or another to somoene. Only error i could have done is tightening the nuts to much (over 9-10kg to be sure), but that is for someone else to evaluate. I can also say i had a trackday after with normal steel nuts, and i didnt have need to tighten them up after traking the usual 30-40 laps.


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

damn, you're gonna make me have nightmares now. I've got d1 spec nuts from epracing on mine. Don't want my wheel falling off whilst driving :nervous::nervous:


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## RJT (Mar 4, 2011)

Yep, also had aluminium nuts work loose. 
Same situation, noticed a noise, slowly got worse ( over a couple of days) until finally jacking up to take the wheel off to inspect, and the nuts were loose!!

Went straight back to steel ones. 

If I remember rightly, they are banned in some Motorsport series???


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## RJT (Mar 4, 2011)

CSB said:


> damn, you're gonna make me have nightmares now. I've got d1 spec nuts from epracing on mine. Don't want my wheel falling off whilst driving :nervous::nervous:


I don't think you'll have to worry unless you get them very hot regularly.
It's due to the different expansion rates of the steel and aluminium.
So in race conditions, they can come loose. Also the constant removal and fitting on race cars means the higher likelihood of cross threading etc.

Another thing to bear in mind,is that ally and steel corrode when put together, which is probably why most people have no problems. 
But wheels changed fresh on track won't have time to corrode and lock.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Motorsport blue book bans aluminium nuts, so I'd stick with steel for track work!


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

WoW. First time I'd heard of this was on the R35 video. I've been doing trackdays for over a decade with RAYS wheel nuts, including endurance racing (A honda Prelude of all things) where the wheels would get seriously hot (Brake discs would glow red hot at night). Perhaps it happens on heavier cars in particular? 

Anyways, I stand corrected - I guess I'll be checking my wheel nuts too from now on when I go on the track in future, perhaps just double checking they're torqued. As I say, never had it happen to me but then the cars I use are lighter so that may have something to do with it (R35 GT-R's are not recommended for use with non forged wheels).


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> (R35 GT-R's are not recommended for use with non forged wheels).


Where is that documented?


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Have heard this several times since the car was introduced, but I don't know where it's specifically documented as such. Sorry, can't help you there.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Where is that documented?


Here most probably......like most of the other drivvel spouted by the brand faithful...











TT


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

How constructive...  - Why not do some research yourself?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> How constructive...  - Why not do some research yourself?


Oh...I HAVE!!! THAT's why I have no issue with Rota wheels. Would be quite happy to consider a set if I'm ever in the market for wheels.....:thumbsup:

You know what..I have NO problem with folks buying whatever they want. What DOES annoy me are those that are quite happy to quite brazenly rubbish brands that are not established players in the game. I presume Newera don't supply Rota :chuckle:...How convenient!! Show me scientific evidence, preferably metallurgical, that categorically points the finger at a Rota wheel failure that has occurred *WITHIN *its design limits........

If folks want to buy Rays etc then good for them....I'm not knocking them!! Hell, I run Work Emotions but then, that's what my car came with. Trying to scaremonger people into buying unnecessarily expensive wheels makes my blood boil when there is NO good reason to AVOID Rota.

As Andy pointed out earlier...Rays use casting too..


> RAYS even makes a large number of aluminium wheel products using casting methods. Casting, a time-honoured technique which involves pouring molten aluminium into dies, does not present the same difficulties as forging. Consequently, casting provides excellent cost performance and allows great freedom of design. Even while casting enables complex design and interesting details, it is essential to ensure that the product retains fundamental strength as a wheel.


Well, bugger me.....cast wheels from Rays.  *MUST *be dangerous. :chairshot. Ah, wait...its _Rays_....that's fine then. Still, anyone else that uses casting is dangerous and will have wheel failures left, right and centre because they don't know what they're doing. Best leave the technical stuff to the Japanese manufacturers :thumbsup:


TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

And we all know that the 'big names' dont have ANY issues with their products because they've been in business long enough to know what they're doing.....

HKS 7460 GTII 'Kai' - Failures? - evolutionm.net

Turbo failure....yet again. - EvoXForums.com - Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X ForumsTurbo failure....yet again. - EvoXForums.com - Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution X Forums

RPS13/180sx blog: Tomei Oil Pan FailureRPS13/180sx blog: Tomei Oil Pan Failure

TT


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Oh...I HAVE!!! THAT's why I have no issue with Rota wheels. Would be quite happy to consider a set if I'm ever in the market for wheels.....:thumbsup:
> 
> You know what..I have NO problem with folks buying whatever they want. What DOES annoy me are those that are quite happy to quite brazenly rubbish brands that are not established players in the game. I presume Newera don't supply Rota :chuckle:...How convenient!! .TT


Can we remain mature here? Calm down. We're having an adult discussion here, no?

I'm not scaremongering at all. Have I said Rotas are dangerous? No.
If you look on our website we also sell many different designs of gravity cast wheels. 
(((((Oh the shock & horror of it - Hissssss! ))))

No, we don't sell Rota. The main reason is we don't sell knock-off products. Sure, we supply some FRP parts that replace items no longer in production, but you won't find us selling fake bodykits, mechanical parts, or anything. Why? for the same reasons that personally I don't download films or music... I believe designs or intellectual property belong to the originator company and as I wouldn't have fake or copy wheels on my cars, I won't sell them to someone else. Is that OK with you?

The other reason, which is logical - is when a design is made the same as a forged & properly developed wheel, but from an inherently weaker gravity cast - that is weaker, unless spokes are beefed up, etc. to compensate for the weakness in strength.
Even Work Emotions, which are a lower priced gravity cast wheel are designs that were originally made & tested for gravity casting, not for forged design.

RAYS forged wheels are properly made to high standards, that's clear - but it wouldn't take much thought to realise that if gravity cast copy wheels of RAYS forged items such as CE28 or Nismo LM GT-4 were tested by the same standards they clearly wouldn't stand up to the same stress levels. 

Whether such copies are safe or not I don't know but most people have seen the pictures of broken Rota spokes. 
Make your own mind up if they're safe or not (Alright - In your case it seems you already have TT..).

If you like Rota as I said from my first post here, that's entirely your choice to make. 

Let's not turn what could be an interesting discussion thread into a silly argumentative one, please. Just because we sell RAYS, it doesn't mean that's the sole reason I don't like Rota. We supply a lot of other wheel brands besides but none are using designs originally intended for forged, but manufactured using gravity casting. 

I hope my explanation above makes it a bit clearer for you. If it's going to turn into an argumentative thread, then I'm not interested in further contributions.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

tonigmr2 said:


> Motorsport blue book bans aluminium nuts, so I'd stick with steel for track work!


Not surprised.

At the risk of being labelled a brand whore - I was also told, by several tuners here in Japan, to stay away from Aluminum wheel nuts, precisely for the reason people have been posting.

So what do I use? These (roll drum, brand whore time...):

NISMO ????????? 2013

Chromoly steel ones, the one on the right, which is hollowed out. Peace of mind, for sure! (it helps that yes they are pretty too LOL).


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> So what do I use? These (roll drum, brand whore time...):
> 
> NISMO ????????? 2013
> 
> Chromoly steel ones, the one on the right, which is hollowed out. Peace of mind, for sure! (it helps that yes they are pretty too LOL).


Oh bugger, I can feel some expense coming on again for my cars now.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> And we all know that the 'big names' dont have ANY issues with their products because they've been in business long enough to know what they're doing.....
> 
> HKS 7460 GTII 'Kai' - Failures? - evolutionm.net
> 
> ...


Sorry, this is irrelevant to the argument here. Of course major manufacturers have the occasional problem. So what? Are you saying counterfeit or "replica" turbos and oil pans are better?

Given a choice, I think most consumers would stick to the real item. So why then do people defend Rota, which clearly copies various designs by other manufacturers? If they can't even come up with their own designs, then what confidence do you have that their manufacturing process isn't taking similar shortcuts?


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## tranq (May 31, 2009)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Perhaps it happens on heavier cars in particular? .


Makes sense.


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

akasakaR33 said:


> Not surprised.
> 
> At the risk of being labelled a brand whore - I was also told, by several tuners here in Japan, to stay away from Aluminum wheel nuts, precisely for the reason people have been posting.
> 
> ...


They're my wheel nut of choice for the same reasons, saw many problems, including lazy tyre shops or garages stripping threads with rattleguns.
I also liked the idea of all the nuts being 7 sided 'lock-nuts'


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tarmac terror said:


> Oh...I HAVE!!! THAT's why I have no issue with Rota wheels. Would be quite happy to consider a set if I'm ever in the market for wheels.....:thumbsup:
> 
> You know what..I have NO problem with folks buying whatever they want. What DOES annoy me are those that are quite happy to quite brazenly rubbish brands that are not established players in the game. I presume Newera don't supply Rota :chuckle:...How convenient!! Show me scientific evidence, preferably metallurgical, that categorically points the finger at a Rota wheel failure that has occurred *WITHIN *its design limits........
> 
> ...


Although said with a forked tongue of a true Jock, a few good points there.

It's a bit like buying anything for a skyline, people often do not know what they need, they have no technical requirements specification, and end up with things massively over specced. 

Car wheels is massively over engineered, whether forged, cast, carbon fiber, glass(joke) or machined from a solid billet, they are all fit for purpose. 
Ever looked at a F1 rim? Mag alloy, nothing to them, do they break? Nope.
The more you pay, the lighter the rim. And then some people fix them to their cars with 'not fit for purpose' aluminium wheel nuts.
I've had Rota and Rays, but I only bought the Rotas. Cannot justify the price of a forged rim.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Miguel - not getting personal. Or at least that wasn't the intent.
You keep on refering to Rota as fake. I think this is the biggest bugbear that i have.
You claim there is no difference between Rota and those in China who shamelessly 'copy' original parts *AND PASS THEM OFF AS THE GENUINE ARTICLE*.
Despite the similarity of design can you for once agree (cant see why you wouldn't as its fact) that Rota sell under the Rota brand and are NOT trying to pass these off as, or indeed, claim ANYWHERE, that they are Rays wheels!!
If they WERE, id have 100% support for your position but as it is, what your saying sounds like you are trying to put them in the same boat as the REAL Chinese rip-off merchants who GENUINELY look to fool people and extort money from consumers by out and out fraud.

There IS a difference here and I just dont think you appreciate it TBH.

TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> Given a choice, I think most consumers would stick to the real item.


So what is not REAL about a Rota Drift wheel???



> So why then do people defend Rota, which clearly copies various designs by other manufacturers? If they can't even come up with their own designs, then what confidence do you have that their manufacturing process isn't taking similar shortcuts?


Thats a bit tenuous dont you think?? Just because they use a popular design doesnt automatically mean they are crap at manufacturing.

TT


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

TT, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Let's take a few fashion items as other examples to illustrate:

If I saw a fake Rolex Oyster that looked pretty much the same, but had a different name, it would still be a fake Rolex to me.
If I see fake Luis Vuitton baggage that have VL on it, or another similar looking name with the same patterns, it's still a poor quality copy as far as I'm concerned. 
Perhaps you cannot see anything wrong with this, but some can. 

Remember that Rota do not sell their RAYS or NISMO copy wheels in Japan. It's not because there wouldn't be a market. It's because of the consequences they'd have to face... 

To me there's a distinct lack of integrity on the face of every Rota wheel, basically. Pun intended.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Miguel - Newera said:


> TT, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Let's take a few fashion items as other examples to illustrate:
> 
> ...


Miguel - we should just give up. People aren't going to listen to our analysis. You know why? 

Because - (I'll probably get flamed for this) for the very simple reason that, (assuming they bought or will be buying wheels to replace what their cars came with) they SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY what they all know is the best. So they come up with all sorts of reasons and justifications to buy "replica"/fake stuff that are cheaper, never mind there may be issues in quality, as well as the very real problem that they are in essence, supporting counterfeiters who make cast copies of forged wheels.

I agree people should be allowed to choose what they want to buy, it's their money. Freedom of choice I say, so long as they understand that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. 

What I DO have a problem with, is these people not just justifying their own purchase, but trying to convince OTHERS to buy counterfeit/knock-off/"replica" stuff, on arguments of a) it doesn't hurt anyone (yes it does, it certainly hurts those who actually work hard to produce the top quality originals – oh and it probably degrades the performance of your car – so in effect, you’re cheating yourself), and b) it's just as good. They are not. Just on weight alone - anyone who has driven the same car with different sets of wheels, but one heavier than the other, is going to immediately experience that the lighter wheel gives the car better response and performance. Unless, of course, you are on drugs. I'm not such a good driver, and I felt the difference at 30kph - and these were between two forged wheels! And I am talking only about weight here, NOT metallurgical differences, where there should be no argument on the benefits of forged vs. cast.

Further, just because someone has used a replica ROTA on their car without issue, doesn't prove that ROTA wheels in general are just as good as RAYS. It's only ONE example of an objective experience by one person. Look at it objectively - these wheels aren't by any measure going to fall apart with any level of regular, normal use. The point is, these are CAST COPIES of forged wheels. EVERYONE knows that forged wheels are generally lighter, and stronger - especially if they are the same shape.

So any arguments that "Rays also makes cast wheels" is irrelevant. In fact, I've spoken to Rays (as well as ADvan) representatives at TAS for example, and they both told me you should have no problem on the track with their cast sports wheels - BUT, admitted that the ultimate in performance - both in strength and handling (lightness) are with forged wheels. They pointed out that it’s up to the consumer to make their choice, and also said that casting has an advantage over forging, in that it allows for shapes that cannot be done by forging (which then means ROTA has no excuse NOT to be innovating with new original designs, if that is the only technology they have). 

In the end, I would be happy if people who bought replica items would simply acknowledge that, they are buying ROTAS because they are cheaper, they look the same because they are “replicas”/”knock-offs”/”copies”, and yes they recognize that the quality standards may be lower but that is the risk they are willing to bear in exchange for the lower costs. It’s really that simple. Everything else is fluff and self-delusion and is argumentative without basis in fact.

Just my two (hundred) cents.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Just to illustrate, I would add another example where lightweight wheels do make a massive difference:

On a motorbike. Much quicker steering and better suspension control. It's one of the most immediately noticable modifications you can make to a sportsbike. Don't take my word for it though, do your own research. Find product tests of BST carbon wheels for example, or similar. It's only a decent google search away.
Remember that wheels spinning at high speed have gyroscopic effects. The heavier, the more effort required to deviate it's course. If any of you ride a bike and have modified wheels you'll know the difference is like night & day. 
So does anyone think a bike's change in performance is irrelevant too?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> TT, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
> 
> Let's take a few fashion items as other examples to illustrate:
> 
> ...


You STILL dont seem to grasp my point....
Rota are NOT FAKE ANYTHING...they are branded wheels in THEIR OWN RIGHT!!!!
The clearly fake LV, Rolex etc is a COMPLETELY different arguement. I agree with you that those who make these fakes and PASS THEM OFF AS GENUINE need to be dealt with severely. I have no argument with that.
The fact that the Rota brand name exists is evidence in itself that these are NOT intended as fakes to fool consumers into thinking they are Rays FFS!!!!!


Come on guy's.....how difficult is it to SEE that!!!

TT


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

TT what Aki and Miguel are saying is that there are products which are designed to look like a Rolex but are called something different. I have seen what they are on about so think they have a point. You might argue they are not 'pretending' to be a Rolex because they haven't called themself it. But actually they've spent zero on design and are trading on the 'Rolex look'.

I can see both arguments tbh.

/certified brand whore! (But am not going to apologise for it).


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

TT I understand your point, but like I said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Peace.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> Because - (I'll probably get flamed for this) for the very simple reason that, (assuming they bought or will be buying wheels to replace what their cars came with) they SIMPLY CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY what they all know is the best. So they come up with all sorts of reasons and justifications to buy "replica"/fake stuff that are cheaper, never mind there may be issues in quality, as well as the very real problem that they are in essence, supporting counterfeiters who make cast copies of forged wheels.


That.....is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on here on a long time! 
It seems that you,min addition to Miguel, do not seem to grasp the fact that Rota (and read this bit carefully) ARE NOT FAKE WHEELS. 

I, and im sure im not alone, am in the position of being able to buy Rays, BBS or indeed just about ANY of the big names. To play the 'you're only jealous cause you cant afford it' card is verging on the offensive.

I find it hilarious that you suggest that those buying Rota are aiding counterfeiters....mate, what reality do you live in because it doesnt appear to be the same one I do.

You come across as SOOOOOO misinformed that you should be embarassed :chairshot

TT


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Remember that Rota do not sell their RAYS or NISMO copy wheels in Japan. It's not because there wouldn't be a market. It's because of the consequences they'd have to face...


Really ? So Rays or Nismo can't go after Rota for copyright infringement because they distribute outside of Japan ? Or is it because they're not actually a close enough design for them to be a 'copy' ?



Miguel - Newera said:


> To me there's a distinct lack of integrity on the face of every Rota wheel, basically. Pun intended.


Hardly suprising considering the business you're in. 
You say you wouldn't sell Rotas....well you wouldn't would you. You'd probably have to sell three times the quantity to make the same amount of money that you do by selling Rays and with the shipping costs involved you probably wouldn't sell many anyway.

The whole cast/forged wheel debate. It makes me laugh how some people seem to thing cast wheels are an accident waiting to happen.
How many production cars have forged alloy wheels (not many) and how many cast wheel failures have you ever heard of where a kerb or pot hole wasn't involved in some way ? I've never personally had a cast wheel fail and I've been in and around the motor trade for 25 years and I've only seen a couple of broken wheels which were caused by people smashing into kerbs or walls at speed during the course of a large accident. The wheel didn't actually cause it so assuming your normal driving doesn't involve hitting kerbs/walls at high speed you should be ok with a cast wheel. :chuckle:

Cheers

Stu


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Well I for one can afford to buy rays or Rotas , the money is not the issues here what so ever, for me personally, the point I'v been trying to make is what is the point in buying something that is 3 times the cost that does the same thing and you will never notice the difference especially on the road, and why people seem to have this attitude that they are a fake wheel. So they turn there nose up at it ..
now going back to this comparison in rolex watches, think its a bit wrong as there not fake.. can you remember when iPhone brought out there product with the touch screen etc then a few weeks later Samsung and Htc brought out vertually the same models as the iPhone . But half the price .i think that is a more fair comparison... And would it stop you from buying a Samsung or Htc ? Yes I agree the basic design of the wheel has been copied but im in no doubt that they would have been exstensivley test for road use, . copying other manafactures happens everywhere, from cars design to te design of a toster... also for example if I was to swap your wheels from rays to Rotas or varrstoen with out you knowing, then you took the car out for a drive sure you would never be able to tell the difference.. That's kind of my point


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I just think it is a design vs brand issue.

Have Rota copied designs, yes
Do Rota have their own designs, no

Have Rota claimed to be a Rays brand, no.

So the thorny question is, do Rota sell wheels because they look like a more expensive version e.g. Rays....got to be a yes hasn't it?? I suspect it's something a court might spend a lot of time arguing over!

Clearly Rays don't care that much otherwise they'd have initiated some kind of court action over their design IP. Hence as long as everyone is clear what they are getting for their money there's no issue arguably.

If it makes 'no difference' on the road or not, that's another issue! Presumably Rota have passed some kind of quality standard. Presumably most people will have no issue with use. But it's kidding yourself to believe both are of the *same* standard. It's just perhaps that such standards are different to what most people need.

edit just looked up weights
Rota Grid 17x7.5 weight 8.4kg
Volk TE37 17x7.5 weight 6.8kg
Presumably the difference is greater for the larger wheels, I see a Volk 18x9.5 is 8.3kg (can't find a corresponding Rota weight). I'd say the average driver wouldn't notice 1.6kg per wheel.


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

^^agreed


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> But it's kidding yourself to believe both are of the *same* standard. It's just perhaps that such standards are different to what most people need.


Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'Standard'?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> I just think it is a design vs brand issue.
> 
> Have Rota copied designs, yes
> Do Rota have their own designs, no
> ...


Thing is Toni, there are only so many designs that you can attribute to wheels before you start to cover old ground. Besides, as a manufacturer, you would only manufacture wheels that are popular.

TT


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> edit just looked up weights
> Rota Grid 17x7.5 weight 8.4kg
> Volk TE37 17x7.5 weight 6.8kg
> Presumably the difference is greater for the larger wheels, I see a Volk 18x9.5 is 8.3kg (can't find a corresponding Rota weight). I'd say the average driver wouldn't notice 1.6kg per wheel.


A rota wheel AND steel nuts would make a car undrivable. LOL Imagen the weight?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

tarmac terror said:


> Thing is Toni, there are only so many designs that you can attribute to wheels before you start to cover old ground. Besides, as a manufacturer, you would only manufacture wheels that are popular.
> 
> TT


I assume that's why Rays haven't pursued it in court - although they might reasonably be able to demonstrate they sold a '6 spoke' design way before Rota, it's probably not sufficiently provable that that design has been deliberately copied. I am sure Rota know what they are doing.:chuckle:



R32 Combat said:


> Can you elaborate on what you mean by 'Standard'?


If both wheels were tested to destruction I am sure Rota would fail first. But most normal road use wouldn't require this high specification.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

If you look at the design criteria of a wheel, you only put metal where its required. So, for a 6 spoke rims, they will all look similar for minimum mass. 

All bicyles look similar, which ones are fakes.


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> Thing is Toni, there are only so many designs that you can attribute to wheels before you start to cover old ground. Besides, as a manufacturer, you would only manufacture wheels that are popular.
> 
> TT


Lol... really... you think their designs were innocent?

funny how they ended up with the same designs as the most successful selling wheels (that the original brand made successful)... but not all the other designs than nobody wants 

The thing I'm seeing time and time again on this thread is peoples idea of what "fake" means

for some it's blatant copy of design
and for others it's if they try to sell as if they are original (names / branding etc)

whatever way you look at it ROTA make wheels designed to look almost identical to wheels that are very stressful and have a big following, making the designs available to people who don't want to pay for the genuine article.

Ask yourself this...

if money was no object would you buy ROTA or RAYS, after all if they are not copies, surely some people would still pick rota for their look / name / build quality


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

tonigmr2 said:


> edit just looked up weights
> Rota Grid 17x7.5 weight 8.4kg
> Volk TE37 17x7.5 weight 6.8kg
> Presumably the difference is greater for the larger wheels, I see a Volk 18x9.5 is 8.3kg (can't find a corresponding Rota weight). I'd say the average driver wouldn't notice 1.6kg per wheel.


OK I think I've found a weight for Rota Grid 18x9.5 at 10.3kg per wheel.
2kg per wheel against the volk again average driver might not notice blah blah.

But it does strike me that 2kg per wheel is 8kg, or over 17lbs. So overall that is like having put on over a stone in weight on the car. Do I think you'd notice that??? On the quarter mile yes!! On the road, meh, depends how you drive.


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

For what it's worth,although i doubt it will have much effect on the entrenched views on this thread.

My car came with 18" Rotas,soon after i put Rays 19"Ce28s on the car and the difference was huge. The Rotas would crash and bang over pot holes etc the Rays gave a much smoother ride.

So yes you can tell the difference


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> if money was no object would you buy ROTA or RAYS, after all if they are not copies, surely some people would still pick rota for their look / name / build quality


Money ISN'T really an object thankfully. I stand by my earlier statement that I WOULD HAPPILY consider Rota wheels should I require a second set and WOULD buy them if they met my needs..

TT


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> Money ISN'T really an object thankfully. I stand by my earlier statement that I WOULD HAPPILY consider Rota wheels should I require a second set and WOULD buy them if they met my needs..
> 
> TT


Ok, so now provide your reasoning for considering rotas over Rays, after all if they are not "copy/fake" wheels, ROTAs should have another + besides cost.

let's take a look

Rays
+lighter
+stronger
-Cost

ROTA
+cost
-heavier
-weaker


so.. why else would you consider ROTA?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

asiasi said:


> For what it's worth,although i doubt it will have much effect on the entrenched views on this thread.
> 
> My car came with 18" Rotas,soon after i put Rays 19"Ce28s on the car and the difference was huge. The Rotas would crash and bang over pot holes etc the Rays gave a much smoother ride.
> 
> So yes you can tell the difference


I am afraid your conclusion is flawed. 
You have a set of wheel and tyres. You change the wheels and tires for a different size and manufacturer. You then say the car behaves differently. Is it the wheels, the tyres or a combination of both. Because you did not change one variable at a time and repeat the test, you do not know.
How can you be sure it's the wheels? 

I've gone the other way, 19" Volks to 18" rotas and I thought the handling and general road holding improved massively. Can't say exactly why for the same reason you can't.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> Ok, so now provide your reasoning for considering rotas over Rays, after all if they are not "copy/fake" wheels, ROTAs should have another + besides cost.
> 
> let's take a look
> 
> ...


Simple

Cost, less on wheels, more on petrol.
Weight, a tiny % of the sprung weight, not noticeable to the driver. If you want to lighten the hub, get carbon disks.
Strength. You rip the hub off the car before the wheel breaks which ever wheel you pick. Not important.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

OK then....

Speedline..









Vs.

Compomotive..









So who is copying who here??

Design is as similar as dammit and by your arguments above 1 is 'genuine' and of unquestionable quality while the other is 'fake' and will bring death to anyone who uses it.

There are NUMEROUS examples of designs which are as close to each other that the casual observer would not discern the difference. Even just having a quick browse on BBS, Speedline, Compomotive and all the Rays group wheels its clear to see some designs are HEAVILY 'copied' amongst all the main players.
Rota do the same and they are villified.....comical!!!!

TT


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> Simple
> 
> Cost, less on wheels, more on petrol.
> Weight, a tiny % of the sprung weight, not noticeable to the driver. If you want to lighten the hub, get carbon disks.
> Strength. You rip the hub off the car before the wheel breaks which ever wheel you pick. Not important.


we previously mentioned money was not an issue when considering rotas over rays, your examples assume money is of value, which for the sake of this argument, it is'nt


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> we previously mentioned money was not an issue when considering rotas over rays, your examples assume money is of value, which for the sake of this argument, it is'nt


Err..I think you misinterpret what Andy was saying..

TT


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> If both wheels were tested to destruction I am sure Rota would fail first. But most normal road use wouldn't require this high specification.


But both meet the level of strength required so who cares if one is slightly stronger.

Anyway, a forging is stronger per mass, but the mass is less that a cast wheel so actually they probably have the same strength.
Company's don't exceed requirements if they don't have to.

Also, ref the motorcycle forged wheels, a wheel is a large % of a motorcycles mass, so obviously having a lighter rim will make a much more noticeable difference on a bike. It's not a representative comparison.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> we previously mentioned money was not an issue when considering rotas over rays, your examples assume money is of value, which for the sake of this argument, it is'nt


I didn't bring it up.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

For those saying you wouldn't notice 1.6kg per wheel, you're forgetting that any mass that is rotating is actually multiplied. The bigger the wheel, the greater the effect too. 

Go pick up a bag of sugar at 1kg. Now go spin that bag of sugar on a rope and tell me it doesn't feel heavier than it did stationary.

Then there's the effect of Unsprung mass on the car's handling too. You notice it, plain & simple.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Gaz. said:


> For those saying you wouldn't notice 1.6kg per wheel, you're forgetting that any mass that is rotating is actually multiplied. The bigger the wheel, the greater the effect too.
> 
> Go pick up a bag of sugar at 1kg. Now go spin that bag of sugar on a rope and tell me it doesn't feel heavier than it did stationary.
> 
> Then there's the effect of Unsprung mass on the car's handling too. You notice it, plain & simple.


Centrifugal effect does not change the overall mass.
Newtons 3rd law of motion?

The gyroscopic effect IS greater.

I do not profess to be a great driver but I'll take your word that YOU could notice the extra mass. 

Can you notice the 500 grams tire weight difference new and worn tires too?


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> Err..I think you misinterpret what Andy was saying..
> 
> TT


my question was aimed at you, not andy, and non of the examples Andy gave were benefits over Rays wheels  (except the cost which we have already established is not an issue)

but as you;ve side stepped it, never mind ^^


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

Also let's face it.. who here has Rotas, what what tyres are you running?

Same question to the Rays...

my money is on budget tyres for the rotas, and proven brands for the Rays.. so that extra weight + less grip slowly starts to add up.

I can't imagine (with some rota owners reasoning) that they would spend more on tyres than what their pretty wheels are worth.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> Also let's face it.. who here has Rotas, what what tyres are you running?
> 
> Same question to the Rays...
> 
> ...


You tart, how very arrogant. Rota driver are inferior now? 

On the contrary, they know what they want, they know value and they have not been bummer for a status symbol 

I ran Rota and mid range tires with steel wheel nuts.
I ran Rays with mid range tires and steel wheel nuts.
But my cars have always have the best handling aid a skyline could ever have, it didn't matter.


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## see_no_evo (Sep 10, 2007)

CrysAk said:


> Also let's face it.. who here has Rotas, what what tyres are you running?
> 
> Same question to the Rays...
> 
> ...


i cant see thats always true i dont have expensive wheels on mine but my tyres are good and cost like £400 a set!


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

www.esi-group.com/products/casting/Etips-old/eTip16.pdf

This might be worth a read?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

see_no_evo said:


> i cant see thats always true i dont have expensive wheels on mine but my tyres are good and cost like £400 a set!


With Rays, if you spend less that £200 a tire, the wheels get confiscated and you get a detention....


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## see_no_evo (Sep 10, 2007)

i wonder if they guys running rays have any knight racer and epracing parts on there cars as they are all copys (i think the rays are a nice wheel i just could never afford them)


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> You tart, how very arrogant. Rota driver are inferior now?
> 
> On the contrary, they know what they want, they know value and they have not been bummer for a status symbol
> 
> ...


At no point did i ever say anything about the owners being inferior  calm down lol.

Logic would suggest, big money wheels would go with big money tyres... ok wheels (rotas etc) with ok tyres and halfords specials would go with budgets

if someone is likely to skimp on one part of the car, under what reasoning would they change their logic to suddenly buy top of the range stuff?

I'm not being arrogant or offensive, and I'm sorry you feel that defensive about your own choice of wheels 


FWIW i can understand buying rotas and varrstoen, and i was actually going to buy a set myself before sourcing some LMGT4's (and loved my rota GTR's on my S14) ...after all they are readily available, BRAND new, in any colour, size and fitment for any popular shape when ... (contrary to my earlier posts), regardless if money was an issue or not, you try finding a set of discontinued LMGT4's in the exact colour, size, fitment and brand new condition ... even if money is no object, time usually is, and finding some of these wheels is near on impossible.

my question was more to see if some of the ROTA owners had logic behind their arguments, or were just arguing for the sake of arguing.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Also, ref the motorcycle forged wheels, a wheel is a large % of a motorcycles mass, so obviously having a lighter rim will make a much more noticeable difference on a bike. It's not a representative comparison.


It's a old & well known fact amongst more experienced sports bike owners, or trackday riders that taking a couple of kilos off each wheel on a bike makes a vast amount of of difference, especially to steering response. Conversely , reducing the amount of fuel in a tank by say 6 litres makes no significant difference. So it's not about overall vehicle weight as you say above.

The major improvement in handling of a bike by fitting lighter wheels is given by reduced centripetal force. 

In simplest terms the magnitude of the centripetal force on an object of mass m moving at tangential speed v along a path with radius of curvature r is:

F = mv2/r (Where the 2 means "Squared")

Note that F increases exponentially the faster the wheel is rotating. This is why it makes most difference to have lightweight wheels for high-speed use. 

So if you're only dawdling about that's fine. You won't feel a thing... 
If you're using your car on trackdays and you're braking from high speeds or doing quick direction changes at speed, then lightweight wheels have very noticable benefits.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> It's a old & well known fact amongst more experienced sports bike owners, or trackday riders that taking a couple of kilos off each wheel on a bike makes a vast amount of of difference, especially to steering response. Conversely , reducing the amount of fuel in a tank by say 6 litres makes no significant difference. So it's not about overall vehicle weight as you say above.
> 
> The major improvement in handling of a bike by fitting lighter wheels is given by reduced centripetal force.
> 
> ...


I know, I'm a mechanical design engineer.

What is the weight difference between a 17" rim and 19" of the same width/make/style rim?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I do think most drivers would not notice rotating or unsprung mass. Even in racing, where I ran volks on my MR2 compared to stock wheels supposedly saving a few kgs, I can't say it meant I won all the races.:chuckle: 

It's also not fair to imply cheap tyres are used with Rotas. Indeed I actually did buy a set of Rotas for a previous MR2 I had simply because I wanted to experiment with a wheel size but not at £600 a corner! I still ran damn good tyres on them.

Soooo, I don't think either view is going to change the other tbh. If I choose Rays wheels then don't call be stupid, it's my choice to spend 'more than I need to'. On the other hand, if I buy Rotas then forget the snobbery, there might be a number of reasons why I'd do that. Nobody is changing anyones minds here.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> Centrifugal effect does not change the overall mass.
> Newtons 3rd law of motion?
> 
> The gyroscopic effect IS greater.
> ...


TBH I shouldn't have said mass, seeing as mass is before gravity is thrown into the equation. Newton's 3rd law of the opposing force, not entirely sure how that affects the discussion of feeling the difference?

If your wheel/tyre combo requires 500 grams of wheel weight I would be pretty worried. You've either got some rather bent wheels or some pretty shit tyres. Also, does a tyre lose much weight in wear? I doubt it does.

Fact of the matter is, swapping between wheels of a different weight by a couple of Kgs back to back WILL give you a noticeable change you CAN feel through the steering wheel. Go and try it if you don't believe me.


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## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

It's interesting someone who is focused on wheel weight and car handling would choose 19 inch wheels. 

Rotas are clearly copying Rays but if they don't have an issue with it then I don't. 

On a racetrack where every tenth counts, forged wheels would be better obviously, but for the street surely from a performance standpoint your money is better spent elsewhere. I can however understand why people run them, they're awesome wheels. 

I'd also be concerned about bending expensive rims on shabby uk roads!


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Gaz. said:


> If your wheel/tyre combo requires 500 grams of wheel weight I would be pretty worried. You've either got some rather bent wheels or some pretty shit tyres. Also, does a tyre lose much weight in wear? I doubt it does.


I am referring to the weight lost on a tire after you have rubber off 5mm of tread depth assuming the following:-
7mm tread depth
Density is 1g/cc
245/45 tyre on a 17" rim
50% of the tire is a gap for water dispersal.

Actually the density is nearer 2g/cc and the 50% is probably way off. But, it's certainly well over 500 grams, probably closer to a kg?

I'd have though it would have been obviously noticable :chuckle:


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

I've never swapped to the same set of tyres in the same sizes once a set has worn out, so can't really comment on that. The other problem with this is that "Feel" is very much subjective.

However, I would imagine you'd feel the difference. Like I keep saying, the few kg changes I've felt are noticeable, so I'd imagine you'd feel something at 1-1.5kg. Hell, you feel the difference in a few PSI of air in a tyre, that's also adding weight.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

This thread has become very interesting, clearly, as with most subjects there is divided opinion.

My observations on this are as follows:

How someone can say that Rota are not copying Rays? Just look at the Rota GTR and the Nismo LMGT4. Just because Rota don't market them as rays doesn't mean they aren't copies, they're blatant copies of Nismo design.

The argument of weight and strength must be justified surely? It makes sense to me that a cast wheel with not have the same strengths or consistency in the metals as a forged one. 

For me it was obvious I wanted rays (or similar) wheels as I've spent a lot getting my car to handle the way it does and the weight difference is noticeable. When I had the bear wheels in my hand they're feather lite, even compared with my advans (which I think are cast?).

No one has mentioned it so far but I know when I am on track that the wheels and spokes themselves goes so hot that I can touch the wheels, would this heat effect make any difference when the car is under load? I'm no scientist but I know when you heat metal it expands and can bend? 

Safety wise I'm undecided on the whole subject but I won't ever have a set of Rota so it makes no difference I suppose!

I'm all in support of innovation and design but clearly Rota's are rip off designs of existing wheels, and that just doesn't sit well with me.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Gaz. said:


> I've never swapped to the same set of tyres in the same sizes once a set has worn out, so can't really comment on that. The other problem with this is that "Feel" is very much subjective.
> 
> However, I would imagine you'd feel the difference. Like I keep saying, the few kg changes I've felt are noticeable, so I'd imagine you'd feel something at 1-1.5kg. Hell, you feel the difference in a few PSI of air in a tyre, that's also adding weight.


I do not doubt that a professional circuit racer could tell the difference, which is how many people on here?

I think the point is, no-one needs forged wheels, like no-one needs a carbon propshaft. However, IF you have something like this, there is a performance advantage. How much of an advantage? Subjective.

A cast wheel, that looks like a forged wheel is not an imitation/rip off/fake etc. It's a cast wheel that looks like a forged wheel. The thing is, with a forged wheel, you are limited on styles, and it just so happens that a nice looking wheel can be forged. So just because Rota cast similar wheel, it does not make them a rip off.
As for performance, yeh, great. A light wheel. Is it stronger? No-one knows. Forgings are stronger by mass, but the mass it less, so maybe the heavier cast wheel is actually stronger. You pay alot for wheels and you expect them to be stronger? A racing wheel will be just strong enough to work, anything else is costing you performance, which you don't want. A non performance wheel, well, they aren't too worried about weight, but I bet they will be of ample strength to perform the required task.


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## ab20000 (Jun 30, 2012)

R32 Combat said:


> I've gone the other way, 19" Volks to 18" rotas and I thought the handling and general road holding improved massively. Can't say exactly why for the same reason you can't.


100% agree there Andy, and I did exactly this - would say one reason is the larger sidewall on 18's to retain the same rolling radius. The difference was huge actually.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> I do not doubt that a professional circuit racer could tell the difference, which is how many people on here?


I'm not even making out I'm some kind of driving god. I really would love you to try it and see if you feel the difference. I'm not saying they will make me so many tenths quicker round a track etc.

I'm saying the car feels nicer to drive with lighter wheels on. That's mostly down to the reduction in unsprung weight, granted. You can try and shit on that all you want by saying "You're not a racing driver etc etc", but it's true. I felt a difference in how the car drives by fitting lighter wheels.

As for strength, there's scientific ways of testing them to destruction that would determine that. Nobody on here is going to do that, I doubt a lot of manufacturers will even do that against their competitors. However, like I said much earlier in the thread, my forged Regas sustained a massive impact without falling apart/folding/losing integrity. That for me is why I bought them, light & strong (not to mention not very common either ).


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Gaz. said:


> I'm not even making out I'm some kind of driving god. I really would love you to try it and see if you feel the difference. I'm not saying they will make me so many tenths quicker round a track etc.
> 
> I'm saying the car feels nicer to drive with lighter wheels on. That's mostly down to the reduction in unsprung weight, granted. You can try and shit on that all you want by saying "You're not a racing driver etc etc", but it's true. I felt a difference in how the car drives by fitting lighter wheels.
> 
> As for strength, there's scientific ways of testing them to destruction that would determine that. Nobody on here is going to do that, I doubt a lot of manufacturers will even do that against their competitors. However, like I said much earlier in the thread, my forged Regas sustained a massive impact without falling apart/folding/losing integrity. That for me is why I bought them, light & strong (not to mention not very common either ).


Rays forged wheel survives heavy impact. Nice strong wheel. Now look at the suspension and ask, why does it need to be that strong? Would you re-use the wheel?

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/176289-black-r32-gtr-spares-parts-car-pic-heavy.html

Rota, same impact? would it matter if it broke( not saying it would)


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> Rays forged wheel survives heavy impact. Nice strong wheel. Now look at the suspension and ask, why does it need to be that strong? Would you re-use the wheel?
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/176289-black-r32-gtr-spares-parts-car-pic-heavy.html
> 
> Rota, same impact? would it matter if it broke( not saying it would)


Personally, if i smashed into a curb at speed, i would much prefer the wheel be intact (even if bent) than smash apart and leave me riding on the disk.

Not because it's going to cost less/more to repair, but because it will be easier to control the crash and potentially save a life or 5 (without taking into consideration further cars/people involved)

I'm not saying that in all crashes where the wheel remains intact that you are going to be able to avoid further damage/ fatalities but there are going to be many occasions where it is possible due to the wheel remaining intact and having greater control of the vehicle.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> Rays forged wheel survives heavy impact. Nice strong wheel. Now look at the suspension and ask, why does it need to be that strong? Would you re-use the wheel?
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/176289-black-r32-gtr-spares-parts-car-pic-heavy.html
> 
> Rota, same impact? would it matter if it broke( not saying it would)


No I didn't re use the wheel, but thankfully it was safe enough to limp home on, and much like CrysAK said, it's better to have an intact wheel than none in that situation.


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## bobwoolmer (Mar 27, 2007)

Rotas look cheap & shit & are cheap & shit & make any GTR look cheap & shit .
Imo


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> That.....is the biggest load of nonsense I have read on here on a long time!
> It seems that you,min addition to Miguel, do not seem to grasp the fact that Rota (and read this bit carefully) ARE NOT FAKE WHEELS.
> 
> I, and im sure im not alone, am in the position of being able to buy Rays, BBS or indeed just about ANY of the big names. To play the 'you're only jealous cause you cant afford it' card is verging on the offensive.
> ...


Fine - if you are SOOOOOOO informed, tell us your definition of what a fake wheel is, then. Would it include:
1) copying the exact design of a pre-existing product? 
2) affixing logos that would attempt to fool the consumer into thinking the wheel is something that it is not?
3) having a production method that is different in some way or form so the quality can be interpreted as inferior to the pre-existing, original product? 

And BTW, I never said anything about anyone being jealous because they couldn't afford something. What I said was, because they couldn't afford something, they were going around trying to justify their purchase on grounds that were not true. (like the handling is the same, etc.). I realize I tend to write lengthy posts, so my apologies if this point in my previous post was not clear.

So tell me then - if you can afford the more expensive stuff - what DO you have on your car, and why?


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

carbonfootprint said:


> It's interesting someone who is focused on wheel weight and car handling would choose 19 inch wheels.
> 
> Rotas are clearly copying Rays but if they don't have an issue with it then I don't.
> 
> ...


Rays DOES have a problem with it, from what I've heard (they are futher improving their technology so copying becomes more difficult, apparently. Why do you think Rotas aren't sold here in Japan? 

As for other countries, does it make sense to spend tens of thousands of dollars in legal and other fees in each country battling this? If they did, their wheels would cost even more I think, which is lose-lose for both Rays and the consumer.

good point though on UK roads. To me, THAT is a legitimate reason to run less expensive wheels, for sure!:thumbsup:


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> So tell me then - if you can afford the more expensive stuff - what DO you have on your car, and why?


18" Work Emotions because the car came with them....

And that is relevant how?????

TT


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

IMO rays is the thing to use and rota is not... Why??? Because of the original thing is always the better one... I can't afford a Rolex, but I wouldn't go and buy a copy of it, instead I buy something else that is an original thing not a copy of something else...

My 2 cents 
Alex


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

...


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

....


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

This whole Rolex thing is completely wrong.... Why because there not a knock off fake wheels with rays written on them that you buy from the market, there a authorised wheel manufacturers.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

AleX-34 said:


> IMO rays is the thing to use and rota is not... Why??? Because of the original thing is always the better one... I can't afford a Rolex, but I wouldn't go and buy a copy of it, instead I buy something else that is an original thing not a copy of something else...
> 
> My 2 cents
> Alex


The original this is always better? 

So, a wooden wheel is better that a Mg/Al one? Wooded being original and Mg/Al being the best? 

Not too sure of the relevance of the Rolex.


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Work equips anyone?









Advan sa3r?









Nt03's?









Having been through the rota range and naming the original manufacturer of almost all their copies, oops sorry I meant "designs" lol, I think I am happy with the definition of copies. "Fakes" would need rays/work/advan stickers etc.

They have shamelessly imitated pretty much every popular wheel going and would appear to be doing very nicely from it. Some people will buy them, some wont.
Calling each other names on here won't change my mind on what I would prefer to put on my car:thumbsup: (lmgt1's)


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## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

Does anyone know what their MXR is a copy of? Looks like a BBS but not quite...?


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Work meister m1r


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

bobwoolmer said:


> Rotas look cheap & shit & are cheap & shit & make any GTR look cheap & shit .
> Imo


That's why they are on my GTST, because they make it look epic.


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## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

wildboy said:


> Work meister m1r


Cheers


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## ab20000 (Jun 30, 2012)

The comment re being able to afford these things is a bit off the mark IMO - it's not always about what you can afford but more what you can justify. I could buy a Rolex and top end designer clothes if I wanted to but I can't justify it as it would mean having less in another area.


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> The original this is always better?
> 
> So, a wooden wheel is better that a Mg/Al one? Wooded being original and Mg/Al being the best?
> 
> Not too sure of the relevance of the Rolex.


What I meant was that the original design of one thing is the better one for several reasons and one of them would be they the original concept is tested and proven before anything...that makes the copy/fake item to be poor in quality!!

The Rolex thing is just to justify my way of thinking... A brand is a brand an that's it!!! It's not rocket science to understand that a Rolex is a Rolex and the copies of it are just shit....if I am to buy anything I make sure it's genuine... I am genuine, you are too!!! Just like everybody else... Would you like some Chinese making copies of you?? I certainly don't!!


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Some of you must either be dumb, blind, ignorant or rude!

Maybe all of the above.

You must have missed my post where I said I have used them with Toyo R888 tires (£650 a set) used them in Time Attack and numerous track days, 1/4 mile sessions and as a daily drive for several months on shocking UK roads - all with NO PROBLEMS!

Guess some of you are so stuck up your own arses that you have to insult people either because they can't afford the more expensive "top spec" wheels, or you feel the need to call them knock offs and insult people that chose to happily use them.....

I love my Rota's, they look good and work.....until they explode - like all you scare mongers seem to think will happen - I will stand by the Rota brand.

Like I said earlier, someone give me a hell of a lot more £££ towards some TE37's and I'd gladly swap.

Also, the tool that thinks that because you use a so called "lesser wheel" makes you a lesser driver, you really need to check your facts and take a trip out in a few of us Rota drivers passenger seats.


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

Well I'm not anything of the above....but still standing by the original design... If it wouldn't have been for Rays...then rota wouldn't have been worth shit...so better be thankful to Rays who actually launched most of the popular wheels today... 



Again if you feel like insulting... I'm not your man then...as I don't feel insulted by people like yourself... Sad story.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Oh dear.

I said I love TE37's, I said if I had the extra £££ I would have them.

So at least we know the blind part applies to your good self ;-)


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

Sorry never read that... Must be I missed that post...my bad then...
Still; I'm available if you feel like insulting anyone like the previous post of yours.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

AleX-34 said:


> Sorry never read that... Must be I missed that post...my bad then...
> Still; I'm available if you feel like insulting anyone like the previous post of yours.


No worries, i said it twice now, lol.

Your still available???


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Trev said:


> I love my Rota's, they look good and work.....until they explode


Since I've been on this forum, other than the usual photos of busted Rota wheels, I've never heard of one Rota failure. Given that most forum users seem to prefer bad news to good, I'd have expected to have heard of at least a couple but I can't remember of any. Now R35 gearbox failures...........


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Neither have I, can't help think maybe it's propaganda by fan boys and people that need to shift their more expensive wheels.


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## Natbrat300 (Mar 6, 2012)

Well said!

Love my Rota's. Why did I buy Rota's when I could afford Rays, because when all things considered they represent the most sensible option! Sometimes the addiction must be controlled!



knighty84 said:


> This whole Rolex thing is completely wrong.... Why because there not a knock off fake wheels with rays written on them that you buy from the market, there a authorised wheel manufacturers.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Natbrat300 said:


> Well said!
> 
> Love my Rota's. Why did I buy Rota's when I could afford Rays, because when all things considered they represent the most sensible option! Sometimes the addiction must be controlled!


Agreed!!!

TT


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

I always wanted some nt03's but they don't currently make them in a suitable size and offset, can't even get the rota version in the right offsets.
I may have to look in china........


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

Trev said:


> No worries, i said it twice now, lol.
> 
> Your still available???


Sure I'm right here... Hit me with your best shot!!


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

AleX-34 said:


> Sure I'm right here... Hit me with your best shot!!


Nah, I'm over it mate, I said my piece!


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Trev said:


> Some of you must either be dumb, blind, ignorant or rude!
> 
> Maybe all of the above.
> 
> ...


Well said Trev. I have been looking forward to returning to this thread tonight.
I can understand why Miguel and matty defend the expensive wheels over the cheaper copies. they sell premium products including their mint cars and do not do cheap budget products.

I think all of us Rota users would love a set of more expensive wheels. Trouble is my car only cost double the price of a set of expensive wheels so that would be madness to spend half of the price again on wheels. I spent my money on the best brake pads I could afford, track tyres, second hand intercooler, harnesses (new of course) and sorting out many issues with the car. I nearly bankrupted myself with a credit card and shiny bits I did not need last time so I have reigned in my spending now. 
I only use the Rotas on the road so the track aspect does not apply (Yokohama S drive tyres btw).
Oz racing wheels in 17inch for the track with 888's that need replacing.

I still would rather buy a second hand Rays wheel than a new Rota but you get a bigger choice of new than the second hand market.

Did this thread step up a gear when Andy started posting. TT was doing well but Andy is hot on the physics.
I have found some very interested posts which probably will change my opinion on my next set of wheels. Probably will be second hand now!

Keep the comments, insults, thoughts etc. coming as it is good reading other than BobWoolmer who's post was pathetic and surprised no one other than Trev picked up on it (as the wheels are fakes and are so well copied that they look the same and therefore cannot make your 'GTR' look shit lol!)


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

I agree Dave it's what this forum is about, sensible discussion, opinions, facts and all that other good stuff. 

I think it's a bit unfair people pointing the finger at Migs saying its scare mongering and only writing what he has due to selling Premium products. Clearly as the man explained, this is the business he's in so I'm sure he knows a damn sight more than many of us on this subject, as no doubt some of you know a damn sight more about other stuff than him!

Ps this is a great thread and makes for some good reading.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

AleX-34 said:


> The Rolex thing is just to justify my way of thinking... A brand is a brand an that's it!!! It's not rocket science to understand that a Rolex is a Rolex and the copies of it are just shit....if I am to buy anything I make sure it's genuine... I am genuine, you are too!!! Just like everybody else... Would you like some Chinese making copies of you?? I certainly don't!!


If rotas has rays embossed in the rim, then i'd agree they were fake. As they do not, i'm not sure how the whole fake thing works.
You have decided that rotas are shit because they look like rays. Thats cool, i don't like coffee because it looks like tea.
However, technically, both wheels are good, with pros and cons for each. As usual, there is a lot of bullshit about why things are good or bad.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

ab20000 said:


> The comment re being able to afford these things is a bit off the mark IMO - it's not always about what you can afford but more what you can justify. I could buy a Rolex and top end designer clothes if I wanted to but I can't justify it as it would mean having less in another area.


I think you've defined what Aki meant by not being able to afford the expensive ones there. I don't think he meant where people have no money to spend at all. 

I mean no offence, but on top level cars such as Tranq's, Rain's, Fourtoes, Austria GT-R's, Akasaka R33 and many others on here built to the highest levels, you'll find only the best quality bits. Stuff like Titanium tower bars, expensive brake setups, top quality suspension and money spent on small but expensive parts, right down to interior. They're searching for perfection. 
To these owners who have spent 10's of thousands of pounds on improving their's (Tranq's bodywork cost well in excess of 15K including paint, I expect) - they don't have to do without somewhere else, so to speak. So for them, dropping a few thousand pounds on wheels & tyres isn't painful as they won't really miss the money, to fortunate people like this, tuning's some of the most fun they have and I would bet none of them would ever consider putting Rotas on their cars when they can have the real thing. 
It's a difference where money really is no object I think - where people do get the best available.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

willrobdon said:


> I agree Dave it's what this forum is about, sensible discussion, opinions, facts and all that other good stuff.
> 
> I think it's a bit unfair people pointing the finger at Migs saying its scare mongering and only writing what he has due to selling Premium products. Clearly as the man explained, this is the business he's in so I'm sure he knows a damn sight more than many of us on this subject, as no doubt some of you know a damn sight more about other stuff than him!
> 
> Ps this is a great thread and makes for some good reading.


Thanks, I appreciate the above comments. Frankly I'm just sharing what I know and it makes for interesting contribution to a discussion I think. I'm not interested in insulting anybody. 

Having been in this market 15 years I am aware of what customers buy and don't buy. As I mentioned above, customers with the best cars never ask for cheaper gravity cast wheels. They always aim for the best quality and that's why their cars are the best of all. See Aki's on his blog. It's probably the best sorted R33 GT-R for the road I know. Amazing attention to detail right down to the paintwork's maintenance. Or for those of you in Ireland who know Ian O connor, or Tom Darragh, you won't see compromises in their choices.

Take the Hipo for example which was built by Top secret for Gio over the space of 10 years with a thick (& I mean thick! :smokin folder of high value receipts. I'm sure he didn't bash any credit cards to pay for the tuning. To him it was spare play money spent over years and he got a lot of pleasure out of that. He wouldn't have chosen cheap wheels over the best quality available I'm sure. 

So there are different levels that people are comfortable going to and this plays a large part in the choice of wheels they decide on. 

Not saying there's absolute wisdom in one choice over another.

I've been there and done it myself over the last 15 years - before having kids and the cars I've built have all been top quality, but looking back - I've never wanted to check just how much I spent over the years and compare to what I could have bought with the money instead because I know it would be shocking.

What I do know is I really enjoyed every moment of building stuff like this, seeing the changes components made, driving on the track, racing on the C1, drifting, at night, etc. in years past. At the end of it all we only have memories - so may as well make the best of them. No compromise where it's not necessary. 

With family, kids, a home, etc. nowadays I have much less time to use these toys- I feel almost ashamed I haven't been to a track for a couple of years & even though I lived 5 minutes from Fuji circuit and had a licence to drive pretty much any day there wasn't a race on, I didn't go as often as I had anticipated when we moved there. 

So the way life has turned out with family, etc. the wisdom in spending a lot on tuning parts for me, at least is questionable - in hindsight. Or is it? - I loved every minute of it. What would I have done with my spare time if I hadn't spent it on cars, bikes, trackdays, etc? I'm not into sitting around doing nothing, nor bars, fashion, etc. LOL, I look like a tramp most of the time as I don't like buying clothes only to make them oil stained, etc!  

Tuning's an addiction and I'm still enjoying it, albeit to a lesser extent. I just can't help it. Currently it's a 22 year old 2-stroke bike where I'm spending several time over than it cost to buy. It's what I enjoy most in my (limited) spare time. It's all about making something beautiful that handles, brakes and runs the best possible and gives me the best pleasure I can get from it. 
...It's telling the addiction isn't cured, that I've spent more on custom made wheels than this very low mileage bike cost me. 
So despite the hindsight - it seems I'm still far from cured... And I'll do my best to pass the affliction onto my kids too. 

I know I wouldn't ever be happy with less than the best I can get on the market at the time of making my choices. Compromise isn't something I would aim for in a vehicle. What I do has to be the best I can make it. If the components are of higher limits than I could use, that's perfectly OK by me. 

So especially being so obvious aesthetically - if I had some cheap copies of wheels pretending to be something they're not , it would *really* bug the shit out of me to look at them every time I looked at my machine!

So my passion for cars and components goes hand in hand with the products we tend to supply, whether it be cars or components. I'l always suggest the best choices I would make if in the same shoes and I can't bring myself to sell copy FRP & carbon body parts, wheels, etc. Sorry if that dissapoints! 

No offence to anybody else's difference in choice. If it doesn't bother you in the slightest to have copies of original designs and you're happy with Rotas, then we just think differently, nothing wrong with that. The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same way anyways. Enjoy!


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

Trev said:


> Nah, I'm over it mate, I said my piece!


I'm glad you are!!


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> If rotas has rays embossed in the rim, then i'd agree they were fake. As they do not, i'm not sure how the whole fake thing works.
> You have decided that rotas are shit because they look like rays. Thats cool, i don't like coffee because it looks like tea.
> However, technically, both wheels are good, with pros and cons for each. As usual, there is a lot of bullshit about why things are good or bad.


Of corse you are right in your way and I am right in my way... Rita's are not fake they are copies.... But in my mind they are just a copie and that's it... I would never buy just because they copy something else....and are not the true thing!!!

Then again only my 2 cents

Alex


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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

Rota GTRs,

--Experience

3 days sliding around the nurburgring on closed trackdays, no issues so far. 
They are about to get a hammering at Knock hill so I'll take some before or after photos :chuckle:

-- Reliability?

But in the main I've found them to be reliable. They have been on the car 2 years now & been on a number of track days.
However I do believe design and particular spoke sizes to be important for wheel strength. 

-- Design/copying

As for copying other people designs, they probably do & have. I believe you need to change you product by 10% though to avoid patient violations. 

-- Price

I'm not going to knock the price point difference.

Out!


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## ForgingEngineer (Aug 31, 2012)

Really interesting thread to read regarding opinions.
I'm using r34 alloys on my r33 and I'm happy so far. If I had a pound for every wrong casting vs forging argument ive seen on forums I could afford some new alloys! It's so much more complicated as I'm sure many are aware.

Castings can easily be lighter and stronger than forgings depending on method of manufacture. And forgings can hugely vary in quality due to method of manufacture. And obviously some castings can be so poor.
I wouldn't be happy if anyone copied my designs having spent time designing and testing but that's the world we live in now. I saw an article recently where an American fighter jet, think it was an f15 had "fake / copy" parts on believed to be from china.

You spend your money you take your chances.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> 18" Work Emotions because the car came with them....
> 
> And that is relevant how?????
> 
> TT


It's relevant, because it shows that you haven't had to actually make the personal decision on a wheel choice, let alone having to choose between Rays and Rota, like most others in this discussion seem to have. Consider yourself lucky then, although sometime I would recommend you try driving your car with lightweight forged wheels, just to see if you can tell the difference.

The people who HAVE chosen Rotas and explained why, I can respect. AND, to be clear, I did not mean insult ANYONE with my comments. Apologies if I came across this way.

Again my comments are directed at those who appear to be recommending Rotas, but for the wrong reasons and who appear to be misinformed about violations of intellectual property. 

Also, I am still waiting for your answer to my question as to how you define Fake wheels.

Thanks.

PS - for those of you who are wondering - and if you check my blog you will see - I've owned my car since 2005 and began modding it almost immediately, but held off on buying new wheels for 4 years. I researched, debated the cast vs forged issue, looked into Rays vs other manufacturers, and scrimped and saved to buy my first set of non OEM alloys (RE30s), which I bought used at auction. So it's not like I had the cash to freely spend either - but for me - I simply want what's best on my car and it saddens me to see others who do not and can live with replicas/copies/fakes (however anyone wants to define it) although of course that is their personal choice.

Anyway, so long as everyone is happy with their decisions, that's what counts, right?


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> Anyway, so long as everyone is happy with their decisions, that's what counts, right?


100% in agreement with this quote.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> It's relevant, because it shows that you haven't had to actually make the personal decision on a wheel choice, let alone having to choose between Rays and Rota, like most others in this discussion seem to have. Consider yourself lucky then, although sometime I would recommend you try driving your car with lightweight forged wheels, just to see if you can tell the difference.
> 
> The people who HAVE chosen Rotas and explained why, I can respect. AND, to be clear, I did not mean insult ANYONE with my comments. Apologies if I came across this way.
> 
> ...


You know what....you have turned me into some sort of self-harmer as im at the point where im banging my head off a wall in frustration at your obtuseness and attitude towards items which dont meet YOUR exacting standard....
As to my OWN wheel choice, yes i haven't had to buy new wheels yet for the GTR....what I seem to be continually saying to you is this (and please take note!)..
I WOULD NOT IMMEDIATELY DISCOUNT ROTA AS A WHEEL SUPPLIER JUST BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HAVE ISSUES WITH THEIR DESIGN,COST OR MANUFACTURING TECNIQUE...

As much as I like a good debate I now tire of reiterating the SAME things over and over without apparently getting through to some people. Bottom line which I also subscribe to is that
"people can buy whatever they want to buy".

That is a mantra that I have respected since i started posting on here and one which I still subscribe to. It would appear from the comments made by some on this topic demonstrate that THEY DO NOT share the same sentiment as their comments are clearly derisory and belittling of those who would even DARE to buy Rota. More than a few rather cutting statements have been made in relation to peoples ability to buy 'genuine' forged wheels. These same people cannot comprehend that someone would choose to buy Rotas when they can afford Rays. My philosophy is that just because you CAN spend the money on big name wheels, you dont HAVE to......

In my own experience of the car tuning scene, its usually the ones who have little or no engineering knowledge that spend the most on parts as they lack the knowledge to make informed decisions when buying stuff. They make the automatic assumption that by spending big bucks, they MUST be buying reliability.......err.......no......not quite. This lack of knowledge leads them to believe that any part not carrying the brand of an established JDM manufacturer must be supremely inferior and prone to failure......again, a WRONG assumption.
As the many posts on this forum will confirm, many a 'big buck' engine build has gone down the swanee after not so many miles while some homebuilt engine using 'value' parts has proven itself to take serious abuse. Proof indeed that £££££ dont always buy you happiness and conversely that a budget build using parts that would turn some peoples noses up actually produces the goods when required.

Clearly, after 8 intense pages I now see that I will NEVER change the attitudes and viewpoints of these individuals. At the end of the day, they'll be happy spending BIG money on named parts until the cows come home. Thats their right and I repect that. So, if you identify yourself as one of these people have the decency to respect the position of others who choose NOT to follow the herd and buy parts that DONT come from Nismo, HKS, Tomei etc.

For me its not about the money..(i could buy new big name parts allday long)...its about getting value for money. Just because I HAVE the money to buy HKS, Nismo etc doesnt mean I HAVE to buy them. It actually gives me greater personal satisfaction to either MAKE my own parts (where possible), to buy secondhand parts and thus recycle them AND lastly, to purposely buy NON-big name brands and see them working just as well, for a fraction of the price. Its a nice two-fingered salute to the crazy markup the 'big names' like to place on their products. 

So, akasaka et al....you buy what YOU want to buy and leave others to buy what THEY want to buy.....oh, and leave out all the nasty jibes and comments etc

Im done with this now.......

TT


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

Some of you guys are wrapping a picasso in a 10 dollar frame. Why take off the original wheels and put lesser wheels on your car? Some of you are trying to turn it into a rich Vs. poor debacle, when it doesn't have much to do with it.


I noticed a big difference going from a set of 17x9 +22 SA3R Advans to 17x8.5 +30 TE37s (That I bought used with no defects and little use for 700 US dollars for the set of four). 24 pounds a wheel Vs. 16 pounds a wheel on a R32, it made a big difference. It's the rotating mass and unsprung weight part that matters.


What's stopping others from being thrifty as well? You don't always have to buy the brand new marked up price, you know. 


TT, I agree with you on some parts. Sometimes there is a noticeable difference in a brand name item, and sometimes there isn't. For example, a Nismo oil cooler kit. No way in hell I would ever buy it when I can buy parts and make a setup that works the same for fractions of what Nismo sells their kit for. I understand that, it makes definite cost/benefit sense.


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

I make my buying decisions based on the suitability of a product to perform it's function appropriately and be cost efficient.
I research the market, look at the reputation and suitabilty of the product and make, what I hope, is an informed decision...

A set of TE37's here in little old NZ is approx $5,500.
A set of Rota Grids is $1,750.
(18"x10")

Are the benefits of the TE37's worth more than three times the cost???

Hmmmm....Dunno....??

Actually....No bloody way....!!


How do Rays justify the exorbitant prices?
Is the forging process and it's benefits sufficently more expensive to justify the price?
How much are we paying for the 'name' brand?

If I'm buying an oil pump would I buy a Tomei pump for $2,500 or a Nitto for $1,500?
Rods, Tomei for $1,200 or Eagle for $650?
Cams, HKS or Tomei for $1,600 or Kelfords for $1,100?
Brakes, Alcon or Stoptech for $10,000 or D2 for $5,200?

Why should the cost of the, so called, premium products be the barrier that keeps me from the enjoyment of GTR ownership?
I think that I, with my average budget, have as much right to live my addiction as any of you...


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

A few things to bear in mind:

(1). Other currency values against the Yen have roughly halved since 2007, which means in other currencies, pricing of importing from Japan is double. 

(2). Investment requirements for forging monoblock wheels is very high. I believe there are only two manufacturers able to do this for road cars. BBS & RAYS, but there may be more I don't know of. Such investment dictates pricing also.

(3). With Japanese Yen high and this being a country with high costs of living average salaries are not nearly as low as in S.E Asia. About 10 times as much, roughly. This also explains why there is a difference in costs of goods that come from Japan. 

It's not all about stuffing vast sums of money into Japanese companies coffers. Far from it. Most are finding the current financial climate worldwide very difficult - so much so that the Japanese government is heavily creating new money to dilute the value of Yen so goods from Japan become more affordable. Hence the rapid drop of Yen against the $ from a low of $76 to $97 or so, in the space of the last month and a bit. 

The above should be bourne in mind when making such comparisons so you have a better chance of ending up with a reasonably balanced view.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Just to add, With the drop in Yen, 1 GBP has only gone from 130ish - to 145 ish Yen. UK government is intent in keeping value of Sterling down to make the market more competitive for exports, but the converse result is imports do not become much cheaper. GBP is also closely liked to the value of Euros and there hasn't been a lot of good news from this region in recent months (Cyprus, etc).


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> I think you've defined what Aki meant by not being able to afford the expensive ones there. I don't think he meant where people have no money to spend at all.
> 
> I mean no offence, but on top level cars such as Tranq's, Rain's, Fourtoes, Austria GT-R's, Akasaka R33 and many others on here built to the highest levels, you'll find only the best quality bits. Stuff like Titanium tower bars, expensive brake setups, top quality suspension and money spent on small but expensive parts, right down to interior. They're searching for perfection.
> To these owners who have spent 10's of thousands of pounds on improving their's (Tranq's bodywork cost well in excess of 15K including paint, I expect) - they don't have to do without somewhere else, so to speak. So for them, dropping a few thousand pounds on wheels & tyres isn't painful as they won't really miss the money, to fortunate people like this, tuning's some of the most fun they have and I would bet none of them would ever consider putting Rotas on their cars when they can have the real thing.
> It's a difference where money really is no object I think - where people do get the best available.


I think this comment is great. You are building a car, a show car, a race car, a track car, a shopping trolley, whatever, and you buy the 'best parts available'.
I noted your titanium tower car. Well, they are not the best, aluminum wheel nuts are not the best, forged pistons are not the best for all situation. So, how to people actually specify what the NEED? They simply don't, they assume, and incorrectly assume, that the most expensive is best. 
A classic example, I bought a brand new HKS T51R turbo kit, but you cannot get a compressor map for it. Buy a Garrett turbo and you can get a compressor map. So, like a fool, I'd bought something labelled as 'superior', with no way of how to use it. Anyone speccing a turbo starts with a compressor map. So, with this in mind, no-one should buy a HKS turbo.

Buy a tower brace, carbon fiber, aluminum, titanium. You know what it does, I HOPE, but which one is stiffest for it's weight? You have no way of knowing, you just buy the biggest, flashiest, best sounding one you car. Where, in the sales bumph, does it give you the stiffness? It doesn't.
Pistons, conrods, crankshafts, brakes, where is the technical specification for all these items? 
So, I want a brake kit that can dissipate say, .5MW every 30s, which one do I choose? I've no idea, I'd have to buy the biggest, most expensive kit and hope for the best.

So, as you can see, you actually have no idea what the 'best' is, because the best is the item that best suits your requirements, but as you don't really know what your requirements are, you just buy the most expensive item.

My aluminium wheel nut comments sums up this whole thing. 

*UNDERSTAND YOUR REQUIREMENTS*


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## ab20000 (Jun 30, 2012)

Side issue but can somebody please explain how forged wheels, say TE37s are lighter than say Rota Grids? Clearly they are, not debating that at all but what I don't understand how the process of forging to the same dimensions allows them to be lighter.

Not a vs. question at all just an an engineering question.


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## WARP SPEED (Aug 14, 2012)

They use less metal.

The info is on this site linked below.

Volk - TE37 Wheel

Its also about what grade of metal alloy used.

They use 6061 aircraft grade aluminum.
Were as I belive rota use 7075 

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2692445/printable.htm


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> I think this comment is great. You are building a car, a show car, a race car, a track car, a shopping trolley, whatever, and you buy the 'best parts available'.
> I noted your titanium tower car. Well, they are not the best, aluminum wheel nuts are not the best, forged pistons are not the best for all situation. So, how to people actually specify what the NEED? They simply don't, they assume, and incorrectly assume, that the most expensive is best.
> A classic example, I bought a brand new HKS T51R turbo kit, but you cannot get a compressor map for it. Buy a Garrett turbo and you can get a compressor map. So, like a fool, I'd bought something labelled as 'superior', with no way of how to use it. Anyone speccing a turbo starts with a compressor map. So, with this in mind, no-one should buy a HKS turbo.
> 
> ...


Well, for the sake of continuing an interesting discussion (I enjoy a good debate! :thumbsup let's analyse this from another perspective if you will allow me:

Aki's Nismo Titanium tower bar actually owes him a lot less than it would sell for on say Yahoo Auctions and I daresay it'll be worth a LOT more in years to come. So although there was a significant outlay for it, the investment would be worth it in my eyes as he could easily sell this whenever he wanted. 

Nismo parts will be seen as some of the most desirable in years to come. How do I know this? Because I understand the market of Japan as we regularly buy and sell components in the course of daily business and I have seen how prices of some Nismo components such as original Steering wheels, seats, LM GT4 wheels, R tune suspension and more now sell for considerably more USED than they did years ago when still available new. Other manufacturer goods are not as desirable when discontinued. For Example, a used but discontinued set of coilovers from Ohlins are worth much less than R tunes. Why? Because there are people who understand that Nismo genuine products are consistently very well developed, reliable and that they will enhance / or contribute to the value or desirability of a good car better than some different brands of components in years to come. 

Here a Titanium Nismo Tower bar used to sell used for around 150,000 Yen about 6 years ago. In those days (When Sterling wasn't on it's knees) that would have been the equivalent of around 600 GBP. Now they fetch 200,000 - 250,000 if they have the red spot logo and are in mint condition. At current exchange rates - say we meet in the middle of the price range at 225,000 Yen, that = 1,530 GBP. Not a bad investment after 6 years? Will they ever come down in terms of JPY? I doubt it. 
There is far more demand than there is availability. 

By contrast a cheap old typically oxidised Cusco tower bar is worth around 3,000 Yen and they sit on Yahoo auctions week after week. They probably do the same job. Well Titanium is a lot harder than steel and the Nismo one is certainly a lot beefier but then there's cost rearing its ugly head again. We shall cross that bridge further down this path. 

People build cars to personalise them. They can be works of art that express their tastes in what they consider are parts they desire most. I have seen people ask us to seek out standard cars simply so they can do all the personalizing themselves to their tastes, whilst many others are happy to start with a well modified car made with well known components. 

Now Combat R32 - You think cost effective and fit for purpose are the main criteria. That is absolutely fine, great, no problem at all. Good stuff!! :thumbsup:

But there are others who may think other criteria such as aesthetics, size, material or even rarity are a greater criteria and money invested isn't that important. Again - Fine, great & no problem! It's called freedom of choice and choice doesn't even need to have reason. It just is. 

I don't think the relative stiffness of a single tower bar is all that relevant as the difference between two tower bars won't be felt on a road car. If it is a proper race car it should be seam welded with a cage welded in and in such cases a tower bar is usually redundant.

I would bet a Steel original tower bar has a bit less stiffness than a Nismo Titanium one but perhaps more than a simple thin cylindrical Cusco aluminium one, but it's the part that is one of the most glaringly obvious when opening up to admire the engine bay.

We're not all the same. People are individuals - so choice is different. Nothing wrong with that at all! I have said this from the beginning & I have also shared my opinion on plaigurism and difference in quality. That does not mean I disrespect people & their choices. It is after all, ultimately THEIR choice, not mine).

But from observation of cars that have been through Newera in the last 15 years there are far more Skyline GT-R's with after market tower bars than there are with standard ones, so clearly people tend to prefer to change than to leave as standard and I daresay it's more about aesthetics than relative stiffness, so you may be off the mark on why people select particular tower bars for their cars there.
____________________________________________________________________

Engine components are more difficult to make informed choices about. With absolute respect, seriously - How many different Skyline GT-R's have you driven with different engine tuning configurations and how many of those have you built? 

Can you quantify what a blueprinted Mine's 2.8 engine feels like with 2530's (Which essentially has Tomei components against say a Top Secret 2.8 with 2835's? 
Have you any experience of different manufacturer's factory facilities and do you know where the components you are buying were made & to what level of quality & skill of workmanship? Have you seen the machinery used and spoken with the operators? 

I have driven countless Skyline GT-R's over the last 15 years with all sorts of turbo configurations, from Keith Cowie's 32 which ran a 9.9 pretty much in the spec it was supplied & shipped, through various Top Secret, Saurus and other cars all the way to completely standard and everything in between. I have used such cars to theif fullest and witnessed the reliability & relative performance of cars tuned by different garages on the track, etc. but despite experiencing so many different cars, seeing results develop in racing & time attack and noticing how one specialist's will tend to be a lot smoother than others, or some more brutal, etc. I won't say one engine component brand is necessarily better than the other as my own opinion. I don't feel qualified to do that!

So what do I do? - I ask the best people in the business, who have been doing building & racing engines the longest & have the most experience. And that as far as I know, is in Japan. People like Hayashi at Saurus are some of the most knowledgeable I know. The sort who can take an entire GT-R to a bare shell by mid afternoon from a solid car I watched drive into the workshop in the morning and knows where any bolt put in his hand goes on a GT-R. Surely these people who have built competition engines day in, day out for 25 years for racing & drag have seen them break countless times from abuse and known which components failed & why? They do the testing & development for manufacturers such as HKS, Greddy, OS Giken, etc. 

Such people will know more than I can ever hope to from driving cars or reading sales blurb or heresay on the internet. 
I have been to HKS's factory and seen their facilities of manufacture, testing and development and looked closely at their workshops and cars in preparation. I have seen there's very skilled engineering there with vast experience compared to relative newcomers that are cheaper and whose products in many cases (I won't mention any names to avoid opening any cans of worms! ) manufactured in China. 

Granted some parts are proving to be just as good, sometimes better I daresay. I really do not know enough to quantify and I would say most people will not either - so I'm just saying it's a tricky thing to quantify differences in quality between one manufacturer & another.

When asked for advice, the information I share on available parts isn't necessarily my direct opinion, it's primarily what has been shared with me through human interactions from far more experienced people. I simply share what I have learnt as part of giving the best service I can - the rest is choice, which is up to the customer's ultimate decision. In many cases I do tell people not to waste their money and some customers reading this thread may remember such instances. One customer asked us to source a carbon prop the other week (Tom Darragh) and I told him not to waste his money as he will never sense any the difference for such an outlay. 
____________________________________________________________________

As for brakes, I have tested many different setups over time that are available in Japan. Endless, Brembo F50, AP Racing, Project Mu, etc. My advice tends to be to stay away from the cheap rubbish that's made in Taiwan such as K-Sport. Why? Because the UK distributor had so many warranty & quality problems a few years ago that they QUIT, sold up & moved on before the distribution was taken on by a new appointee. There's not much development or experience in their products. Some may be fine with these, yes they were cheap, but ultimately they might not have proven to be such good value for money.

I'd say R35 GT-R brakes are probably the best choice possible for ultimate stopping ability for an RB engined GT-R nowadays and guess who has been developing kits? Yep, Nismo... They're equal diameter, which works very well and being OEM calipers they're fitted with proper dust seals and built to the highest standards by Brembo. OEM's do a lot more research than you or I into what the best quality manufacturers are. If many of the top Supercar manufacturers use Brembo, then the quality of their components is safe to say - better than K Sport's.
But if on a budget I usually advise people to have Stoptech, which give excellent performance for a good price. 
And no, I am sorry - we don't supply Stoptech as they do not have distribution where we supply from. So again, I turn business away in such cases. I cannot say what I do not believe for the sake of making a sale. 
A long lasting friendship & relationship built on trust & reciprocation is worth more than a bit of profit. 
____________________________________________________________________

And lastly -Aluminium wheel nuts.

I said above I stood corrected, but have bothered to discuss & find out the reason why they may fail so I can share it with those here who are interested.

Here's the explaination I was provided with:

The reason is that on aluminium nuts the inside thread being made of aluminium, is softer than the steel stud. So taking the wheel on and off but using the same alum nuts, will gradually wear out the female screw portion so that the thread becomes rounded. 
From heat cycles and to some extent electrolysis over time the aluminium is also weakened and so using lots of force to remove presumably wears them out faster too. So it is not really a weakness issue. They are strong new - it's usually a longevity issue".

RAYS do offer racing wheel nuts which use different materials & are a lot stronger and so does Nismo and other manufacturers. They are more expensive and bear in mind my comment above regarding Yen & relative exchange rates when checking if they are something you want to invest in or not as the case may be.

In my own case I considered drilling out the threads on my RAYS wheel nuts and inserting Helicoils, which - if some of you are aware, are much stronger than the aluminium threads they're usually used to replace. Porsche used to fit Helicoils on competition gearbox casings for this very reason. 

I'll probably just continue to use my RAYS Alumite nuts as they are though. They're still nearly new and my cars are light and I've never had a problem in over a decade and now with kids, family, etc I rarely have time to go to the track anyways. Checking wheel nuts are correctly torqued prior to driving on the track is a good habit to have in any case.

Sorry for the length of this novel. Like I said, I enjoy a good conversation. No insults, no disrespect to anybody here. Your choices and differences of opinion are OK. I don't lose any sleep over them and I sincerely hope you will not over mine. 
I just hope that the knowledge I share is of use to some that's all.

Again; Peace. :thumbsup:


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Blooming 'ek Miguel, you must have spend the best part of the day writing that. I skimmed a RB25 cylinder head instead, and now I'm cooking toad in the hole for the kids. Great.

Anyway, couldn't agree more with your thoughts, observations etc. I see from your writing that in some cases, people have items on their cars not for any other reason than pose factor. 
This kind of brings this full circle.

Time for a well earned smiley 

P.S. Aluminium wheels nuts. CTE, 13 ish for steel and 20 ish for aluminium, somethings going to give. Either the stud or the tread in the aluminium. Make them the same, no problem. Helicoil the nuts, stronger thread, less of a problem. But, as you correctly point out, the choice is yours. I'd just like to see a lot more information for that choice to be informed.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

About 90 minutes. But time flies when you're having fun LOL. Besides, the kids are in bed and the wife was cooking for tommorow.. 

Yeah, knowledge is infinite... we just need to look hard to find it sometimes. 

Most Japanese tuning products for cars have primarily been made for the domestic market. Remember the boom really happened during & after the Japanese bubble economy of the early 90's and continued from there & most of the great sports cars weren't officially exported in any great numbers if at all. But the Japanese tuning market's s been in steady decline especially since the mid 2000's. 

Most Japanese people are not English speakers, so information is sparse in many cases. With the VAST amount of products that are copied from Japanese originators (Especially body kits, seats, carbon components,mechanical components, etc) the Japanese tend to have a guarded view towards foreign markets and in many cases choose not to get involved directly. 

However, between a Japanese tuner and customer there can be a lot of sharing of information verbally. It's a country of honour and respect amongst people so individuals are usually very honest with one another in what they are able to share and there's much less one upmanship. 

Where a product is successful at doing what is intended, the reasons why are often shared with enthusiasm and this helps build faster development, better relationships, feedback and customer loyalty. So conversations are often the way information is shared here. So these 2 reasons are why there isn't always so much written information in English for Japanese products unfortunately. 

Although we speak with suppliers and have relationships with various companies, my Japanese is limited to what I've learnt mostly from conversation. I can probably talk more about car components in Japanese than any other subject, not least because most of the words are the same as English, ha! Everything from "bolt" to "V-mount" is the same, just pronounced in a Japanese accent. 

But Aki has much more in depth conversations with people here as he's a Japanese National and can also read / write it naturally - being a native. And they trust Japanese much more readily for reasons above _(And the understanding of why & the damage copying does to further development, etc. is one of the reasons I feel so strongly about theft of intellectual property -Theft of designs kills off the sources that created the very things we're all passionate about - but anyways, we've exhausted this subject, so let's leave it at that for now)._

Aki can read GT-R publications, etc. He also has good relationships with people who build race cars, work for Nismo and more. Sometimes it's incredible the amount of information they are willing to share. 

If you check his blog from time to time he shares some very interesting knowledge there.
He's an asset of access to some of the knowledge people may seek that is otherwise not usually available. 

Having said that, he's crazy busy most of the time with work, family, etc. We rarely get to meet these days. Maybe once a year if we're lucky. Family and work can do that.. you'll know yourself probably. 

Enjoy the Toad in the Hole....Aki, you probably won't understand that one LOL. :thumbsup:


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Miguel...your now changing the goalposts......

Youre now bringing the 'investment' card into play.. As much as i find it completely bonkers i agree that some titanium strut brace with Nismo on it will probably will be more desireable in years to come. This, however, is due to those folks with a certain propensity to buy completely ridiculous things that perpetuating this demand...
The original debate was not centred around which brands represent good investment opportunity..that is a completely different subject altogether!




> Granted some parts are proving to be just as good, sometimes better I daresay. I really do not know enough to quantify and I would say most people will not either - so I'm just saying it's a tricky thing to quantify differences in quality between one manufacturer & another.


That sounds like a backtrak to me....you were effectively slating non-branded parts earlier where that statement seems to suggest that you have actually seen the light of previuos arguments and are willing to concede that non-braded items CAN be just as good as the stuff from the big players....

TT


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

So buying big brands = a lack of engineering knowledge. Never knew that, guess I'll just go stand around at work instead of rebuilding this Steam Turbine.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Gaz. said:


> So buying big brands = a lack of engineering knowledge. Never knew that, guess I'll just go stand around at work instead of rebuilding this Steam Turbine.


No. Im not saying in ALL cases, but i have seen firsthand how some with little or no mechanical engineering knowledge think that by buying big ££££ parts it guarantees you some sort of immunity to part failure. 
It all comes down to a lack of knowledge (not really their fault as everyone cant be/have been a mechanic or engineer). It ends up with these folks overspecifying parts in the belief that ££££=AWESOME.

All it does is lighten their wallets unnecessarily with NO guarantee of reliability further down the line. 

TT


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Gaz. said:


> So buying big brands = a lack of engineering knowledge. Never knew that, guess I'll just go stand around at work instead of rebuilding this Steam Turbine.


Au Contraire Gaz. It's all about knowing what you are buying and why you are buying it. And also realizing that the most expensive is not the usually the best.

As good example, BMW, good brand?, class leader?, also the highest amount of after sales problems per £ spent. However, because of their very good customer service, its not a problem.

Some of this thread is people slating Rota wheels for being inferior. This simply is not true. They are made to a different specification.. 

Some of this thread is saying Rays and Rota look the same. Can't deny that, infact, someone on here said my rays were fakes.

If you want to 'technically' overspend, by that I mean but super duper stuff you don't need, cool. Perhap I'm too tight, or just too sensible.


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

I tend to disagree to an extent. For instance, Japanese brands vs the likes of your Japspeed, Driftworks, Godspeed etc etc that people love to buy in the UK.

Put the 2 side by side and the difference in price is noticeable in quality terms e.g. Welding, Materials, Aesthetic qualities etc.

IMO, you quite often get what you pay for. I'm not too fussed for the failure argument, anybody can break anything given the right circumstances.

It's something I see day in day out in my profession too, albeit it's in a different context. Being on the receiving end of cheaper parts in my industry failing, it rubs off into my personal choices of parts for my car.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Ok, so heres a scenario....

Lets say one of HKS/Top Secret/Tomei/Trust(Greddy) (whatever...we'll generically label them Company X) top engineers decides he's had enough of working for someone else and decides to leave Company X and start up on his own....
Say said engineer decides to offer his own line of (excellent quality) aftermarket parts, based on his experience and knowledge gained from Company X, and brings them to market under the hypothetical name Roota (see what I did there??). So Roota parts go on sale worldwide and to stimulate sales he decides to offer them at 70% of the equivalent Company X price. People who only buy Company X products get it into their heads that, because they're cheaper than Company X parts, Roota *MUST* be shit and avoided at ALL costs despite, in reality, Roota parts being of equal quality to Company X. 
**For argument we'll say that the quality of Roota parts has been independantly tested to meet the SAME standards that Company X manufactures to**

Oddly, Roota MD is sitting there scratching his head wondering WHY only a select few customers are buying his stuff despite offering it 30% LOWER than Company X's parts. He cannot understand WHY people continue to buy Company X parts when his are just as good AND at a lower price...

He concludes that people are plain nuts and questions WHY he should continue offering quality products to folks that, clearly, have no clue about aftermarket parts. He also conludes that people are MORE interested in brand name than buying quality, value for money parts....after all, he set up Roota to help his fellow enthusiasts uprate their cars without breaking the bank!!

He then decides that society is too wierd for him to continue living and so buy's some Rota Drifts to replace the genuine TE37's on his R32GTR so he can die a flaming death.






OK, so the last sentence was tounge-in-cheek but the rest is a serious thought experiment....
Would you be a Roota customer????

I know I would...

TT


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

seems like a wealth of information in this thread. Gonna have to set aside and hour to go through it. yum.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

TT,

But Roota aren't the same quality as company X! 

10 points for your analogy though. People are nuts, all people in their own way, no avoiding it, the people that hangout here are the most diverse bunch of nutters I've ever met!


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Miguel...your now changing the goalposts......
> 
> Youre now bringing the 'investment' card into play.. As much as i find it completely bonkers i agree that some titanium strut brace with Nismo on it will probably will be more desireable in years to come. This, however, is due to those folks with a certain propensity to buy completely ridiculous things that perpetuating this demand...
> The original debate was not centred around which brands represent good investment opportunity..that is a completely different subject altogether!
> ...


Er, let's see now. On a tangent - We were discussing Strut braces, engine components, brakes and wheel nuts in response to Combat R32's previous post - as quoted.... and his response was that he couldn't agree more.

Did I inadvertently mention Rota or RAYS in the conversation perhaps? :nervous::nervous: 
No.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> A few things to bear in mind:
> 
> (1). Other currency values against the Yen have roughly halved since 2007, which means in other currencies, pricing of importing from Japan is double.
> 
> ...





Gaz. said:


> I tend to disagree to an extent. For instance, Japanese brands vs the likes of your Japspeed, Driftworks, Godspeed etc etc that people love to buy in the UK.
> 
> Put the 2 side by side and the difference in price is noticeable in quality terms e.g. Welding, Materials, Aesthetic qualities etc.
> 
> ...


For reasons I briefly touched on above - The majority of cheaper stuff that's on the market whether via Ebay or other sources is made in China. 

You'll be surprised just how much stuff is made there. It's because average salaries of factory workers is around the equivalent of $200 - $250 US. Simple maths. I've seen factories there with my own eyes. Stuff like taking a look at a line of guys polishing stainless exhaust components on big belts in a row of about 20 operators is an image that'll haunt me forever. There's a good chance they'll die early of lung cancers & other nasties. I happened to see this when visiting a wheel factory and hope to never see stuff like that again.... 

I'd say the Chinese are not a culture particularly committed to fine quality of precision engineering. They may do so through experience, but this takes time. 

Another branch of business we are involved with is in the export of plant machinery to South Africa. It's used Japanese equipment, sometimes 20 years old, but works fine & is known to be reliable. There are also brand new similar machines made in China. If you ask people involved in business of construction in S.A. what they prefer to buy, most will always prefer Japanese quality compared to attractive, but ultimately not the same quality Chinese stuff. Their livelyhood is dependent on reliability in this case.

Take a look at Toyotas and their reputation and reliability. OK it wasn't always like that, but they quickly improved. The Chinese make cars of their own brands too, which we don't see outside of Japan yet. There's a Rolls Royce replica. It's laughably quirky and flawed but that's one of their first cars - of their own design. China does make many cars and most manufacturers have set up there, but the quality still isn't exported to the rest of the world in general. Why are some Audi made in China and not exported to the west yet? Ask yourself... 

Roughly 50 years ago, Japan was in the same position as China, albeit on a smaller scale. Many people didn't like Japanese quality because it wasn't very good. It was cheap and undercut everything else though.

But the Japanese improved and changed and so quality improved. In many ways the Chinese are also getting there, but just like in Japan as they do - salaries will go up. When I was there 6 years ago salaries were around $100 a month. Now they're approaching $300 a month. Factory workers can't afford homes of their own and some live in dorms provided by the factory. Eventually something will have to give as a society can't continue like this for long. People want to have children, get a share of success, etc. and that's what happened in Japan, as a model of what will occur in China if you will.

There's a few differences I do see between Japanese & Chinese cultures that may make a difference in the quality of goods produced.

Japanese have traditionally been people of fine quality of craftsmanship. It's in their blood from making things like making very manicured gardens & bonzai to crafting kimonos woven with fine silk by hand, to making Katanas that even today will cut better than anything else. Being a culture of honour they feel compelled to give the best they can and you see this in many of their products today. 

The Chinese don't have the same makeup. It's a society whose generations have had to scrimp and fight for survival amongst a huge population and they have never been known for the same attention to detail as the Japanese. 

You only need to take a look at the largest temples in Beijing compared to those in Kyoto to observe the difference to attention to details from each culture. Beijing's temples are huge and impressive for that. The great wall is a feat of human ability but it's not fine work. 
Ginkokuji temple with it's gold plated walls, beautiful roof, gardens and more is a sight to behold for hours of walking around it during a spring cherry blossom season. There are many fine temples in Japan, the most impressive ones that survived the war are in Kyoto. Quite different qualities of culture indeed.

But life doesn't realistically always revolve around generalisation. 

Take a look at a car with genuine Nismo bodyparts which are much more expensive than the copy parts made in China and such places (No, they don't have the same names on the boxes so they're not copies surely! ). Some can tell the difference a mile off, some cannot. Some will say it boils down to fashion, others will say it's about quality and others will say it's about integrity. 

Once again it comes down to choice. If you're happy with a cheap part that will do the same job, great! You takes your choices & pays your money.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

The Geely Ge. You're cool if you roll in one of these in China. 

Geely says Rolls Royce's copy claims are baseless


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

For me and most who have visited my unit, seeing a good friends genuine 18" bronze TE37 hanging on my wall now as a cable tidy real for my 110v dent puller, :chuckle:
Seeing the impact it took and where it just bent out of shape, and the fact it didn't crack or snap or sheer into pieces is testimony enough for me that the quality of Rays wheels is second to non, that and the fact it is considerably lighter than and other 18" wheel I've ever felt too, (which as mentioned before is great for unsparing weight and acceleration ) the material and processses, build quality is very impressive when you consider the impact forces it took without cracking! 
After seeing this wheel and being genuinely very impressed I'd trust my life to a set of these over the cheaper copies! No I can't afford to buy a set new now I run my own business, (one day maybe though ) but I wouldn't buy a set of copies and put them on my car to try convince myself they were of equal quality. So I'll just keep saving until I can afford some or look out for some second hand genuine ones like Will has.
:thumbsup:
Bob
P.s. not everything I've seen that comes out of Japan is perfect in quality mind, for instance is there a shortage of paint in Japan? As pretty much every component I've see that's painted out there has the thinnest layer of paint on it, trust filter relocation brackets, cusco brake stoppers and strut brace ends, HKS under body braces....etc etc. it's a shame as generally the component are great but the final 10% of finish that would give it longevity just ain't there! It's almost like built in obsolescence. I find myself having to reprint and protect new component like this all the time to protect against rust and corrosion!


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

LOL, I thought you were about to slag off the real thing for a minute there Bobster, but I know you appreciate genuinely good quality- so not surprised on what your choices would be with regards to wheels and other components. That's why you have Ikeya Formula suspension arms, for example...and that ain't for fashion either. ;0 

I'd help you if I could, but TE37's used in Japan are not far off what they can cost new - if they're the sought after sizes!

Remember other stuff is made for the Japanese market where components generally don't need as much protection against corrosion as in the UK and other places.
That's why there are 32's running around in original condition with ORIGINAL exhausts without corrosion on. Compare that to cars used on UK roads which tend to lose their original exhausts by the time they're 5 years old on average.

There's no equivalent of Quik Fit in Japan. They'd go bust!!


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Hahaha love it Miguel buddy!:thumbsup:
Yeah I'd love a genuine set of TE37's one day but at the mo a new welder is top of my want list! 
It's a shame that they don't think about export market though buddy as most second hand japanese stuff as you say when it hits our shores and has to deal with the uk roads/environment and ends up looking very tired indeed! Even new stuff like I said like trust cooler/relocation kit metal brackets look like they have zero metal primer under the paint and the thinnest layer of paint that scratches as soon as you look at it!
Still I suppose a lot if people are more function over form! 
And I quite like fabbing stainless steel replacement brackets to be fair!:chuckle:
Must send you a catch up email when I get a mo Miguel buddy!
Hope you're well mate? 
:thumbsup:
Bob


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

UK market's not significant for most of these Japanese manufacturers. TEIN did fairly well for a few years before the arrival of the Leeman shock. They're not doing so great now. HKS pulled out of the US a few years back as it didn't work (& that's considered a pretty large market to most!); not sure they're back there again or not. So the best quality & most expensive stuff is made primarily for the Japanese market which is why it doesn't come with English instructions most of the time for example. 

Yeah, you're good at what you do and people appreciate attention to finer details like that. :thumbsup: Glad you found success so far buddy.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

...Anyways, just noticed - this is a thread about Imitation wheels v genuine. Shall we get back on topic or is this discussion over?


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

*So I called the VIA Certification Authority today....*

Wow, what happened? A couple of days and Miguel has written a novel. Anyway... back to the topic of Rotas vs. Rays (or, as the OP himself posted - imitation wheels vs genuine wheels).

So earlier today, I called the Japanese organization (the Japan Automobile Light Alloy Wheel Testing Council) that oversees the VIA certification for all alloy wheels. 
https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/index.html

To review, the JWL mark is self tested and self reported; however the VIA testing is done here in Japan under laboratory conditions, then registered with JWTC.

I spoke to their senior manager in charge of VIA registration. I did not want to play favorites, so initially I asked for a list of ALL wheels that have been VIA certified. I was rebuffed as this would be a long list, and that I would be better off calling a wheel retailer who could check. But, I then explained that the wheels in question were NOT commercially sold in Japan...

Here is the conversation that followed:

Me: "Ok, then have any wheels by the Philippine Aluminum Wheels Corporation had ever been registered by your organization." 
VIA Manager: "No, never heard of them." 

Me: "Well then, how about their "brand" (thanks TT), ROTA? 
VIA Manager: "How is that spelled?" 
Me: "R-O-T-A"
VIA Manager: "Nope, never heard of them either. So why are you calling?"

Me: "Why would a wheel, not sold in Japan, but sold overseas, have the VIA mark on it?"
VIA Manager: "VIA certification is designed to be for alloy wheels sold domestically. If the wheel isn't sold in Japan, then I'm not sure why the logo would be on the wheel, as there is no need. If what you are saying is true, then most likely this is misrepresentation on their part."

Me: "So if a friend of mine overseas is looking at these ROTAs, and it has this VIA mark, you are saying that the VIA mark is not authentic?"
VIA Manager: "Correct, as it has not been registered with us."

So folks, whatever your definition of FAKE, this certainly fits into MINE (TT never gave me his definition, sadly...):
1) copying the exact design of a pre-existing product
2) affixing logos that attempt to fool the customer into thinking the product is something which it is not
3) having a production method that results in quality not as high as the pre-existing product.

Check out the pictures below. Yes, I realize there are only a certain number of wheel patterns that are possible. But then why the dimples on the ROTA wheel, that resemble the Rays?

Check off #1.

Logos - ok, so you guys who said that ROTA doesn't stamp "Rays" on the wheels - you are right. I don't see that anywhere. BUT, then why misrepresent by putting on false VIA certification? Are they trying to convince consumers that the wheels have undergone quality testing which it apparently hasn't? Or is this just part of the "replica" process? 

Check off #2.

Manufacturing. Like I said, I'm sure their casting results in a solid wheel that performs as it should. However, EVERYONE acknowledges that all ROTA are cast, not forged, and so for the TE37 copies we have been discussing, the difference stands.

Check off #3.

ROTA GR6:









Real thing, Rays VRG2: 









ROTA IK-R:









Real thing, Rays TE37:









The conclusion is obvious. Given what I've discovered today, I leave it to you and your judgment whether to spend money on a company whose products 1) are clear copies of others and 2) and carries certification labeling that is apparently false. 

As I've been trying to say all along, if the price performance of the ROTAs works for you, by all means enjoy please - I for one have NEVER said that the wheels would fall apart or aren't fit for YOUR use. Just don't delude yourself and others that these wheels are just copies, because others are justified in calling these wheels fakes.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

akasakaR33 said:


> Just don't delude yourself and others that these wheels are just copies, because others are justified in calling these wheels fakes.


Fake in legal terms is quite a statement to make tbh.

I think you have to ask the simple question when: _To counterfeit means to imitate something. Counterfeit products are fake replicas of the real product. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product._ Why hasn't Rays pursued Rota under copyright law if they are legally deemed as fake?


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

matt j said:


> Fake in legal terms is quite a statement to make tbh.
> 
> I think you have to ask the simple question when: _To counterfeit means to imitate something. Counterfeit products are fake replicas of the real product. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product._ Why hasn't Rays pursued Rota under copyright law if they are legally deemed as fake?


I think Aki is qualified to deem them as fakes now, with the research he's done it's clear they've got fraudulent markings on. 
Your question should be: Why doesn't Rota sell their wheels in the largest market of all for the original designs? Why do you think? Has the penny dropped?

Another tuppence worth.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Or rather the question would be: Why doesn't Rota sell their wheels in the largest market of all for the original designs? Why do you think? Has the penny dropped?
> 
> Another tuppence worth.


Hold your horses Miguel; whilst a valid question, perhaps you should take market stake, sales, distribution and expansion into the equation before jumping to conclusions...

HAS THE PENNY DROPPED YET?


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

I can't get my head round people not calling these fakes! Its exactly what they are badge them what you like they are fakes, Ritas wheels Rojas etc etc they are clearly copies/imitations/fakes. No issue with anyone using them at all that's your choice but don't try to claim Rotas are a credible newcomer with new designs as they ain't! Primarily they have built their business around copying Rays and selling them cheaper, if you think selling them cheaper means its similar quality QA manufacturing practice as Rays etc etc, go for it

They offer people value for money go for it...I've seen second hand Rays go for cheaper than Rotas

I've made a choice to not use them doesn't make me any different to anyone else it was simple for me the real McCoy or fakes, I decided I wanted the real McCoy.

Its been a thoroughly interesting read, listening to all the details and facts.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

matt j said:


> Hold your horses Miguel; whilst a valid question, perhaps you should take market stake, sales, distribution and expansion into the equation before jumping to conclusions...
> 
> HAS THE PENNY DROPPED YET?


OK, I'll let Aki respond. I do apologise if I spoke out of turn.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> I do apologise if I spoke out of turn.


It's not like you to apologise Miguel so I'll take the  as sarcasm.



Miguel - Newera said:


> I think Aki is qualified to deem them as fakes now, with the research he's done it's clear they've got fraudulent markings on.


So one guy using the phone to ask a very basic question is, by you, now deemed 'qualified' to class Rota wheels as counterfeit fakes with fraudulent makings on them? I'm actually quite shocked by your statement.



blitzer_bhoy said:


> I can't get my head round people not calling these fakes! Its exactly what they are badge them what you like they are fakes, Ritas wheels Rojas etc etc they are clearly copies/imitations/fakes.


Quite simply, they are not badged and sold as counterfeit copies of the Rays/Volk brand or products, they have enough differences so as to not impinge on copyright laws and are sold under their own trade marks. 

I have 2 sets of wheels by the way, TE37s and CE28n and would not (read never) consider Rotas on a par but I'd like to think I'm able to understand the difference between Counterfeit copies and something that looks similar.
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery IMHO.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> ...Anyways, just noticed - this is a thread about Imitation wheels v genuine. Shall we get back on topic or is this discussion over?


How about you explain the difference between Rota Wheels / Rays Wheels and Nismo ducts / Your Ducts?

Zacetec Nissan Skyline R33 Carbon Bumper Ducts

Seems to me you're guilty by your own accusations of counterfeiting Nismo N1 ducts Miguel or are the rules different for you now?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Pulls up chair and waits....


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Oh dear god....

Really?


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Oh dear - I was anticipating something like this from you mattj. 
If you read one of my previous posts you'll see the answer to your question.

I specifically mention we do sell replicas of some discontinued parts. It's the only thing we offer that is not of original design, since the original is not available. It's provide what would otherwise be unobtainum. 

In the most polite way I can ask - PLEASE don't try to turn what's been an interesting thread and informative thread with good debate into another one of your Newera & AkasakaR33 bashing rants about what happened 3 years ago. We've been over this a million times already. If you must, post a link to the thread on your signature and give people the choice to read it if they want to. 

Ruining this thread with something completely unrelated will sour the dialogue and simply turn people & continued interesting discussion away.

I'm sure Aki will be along to reply to your earlier posts here. I'm off to watch last night's Moto GP. :wavey:


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> I specifically mention we do sell replicas of some discontinued parts. It's the only thing we offer that is not of original design, since the original is not available. It's provide what would otherwise be unobtainum.


Now you're getting the point, they are not replicas, they can't be by your definition; they are counterfeit copies aren't they? Again, are the rules now different for you as to those you pose for Rota?



Miguel - Newera said:


> In the most polite way I can ask - PLEASE don't try to turn what's been an interesting thread and informative thread with good debate into another one of your Newera & AkasakaR33 bashing rants about what happened 3 years ago. We've been over this a million times already. If you must, post a link to the thread on your signature and give people the choice to read it if they want to.


What on earth does this have to do with that subject, you seem a little paranoid Miguel...



Miguel - Newera said:


> Ruining this thread with something completely unrelated will sour the dialogue and simply turn people & continued interesting discussion away.


How exactly is it unrelated, again I think you're extremely paranoid about something Miguel! I used an example of a product you sell which is the exact same scenario as the rota wheel debate, you were the one setting the 'so called' rules, I'm simply asking why you feel the same rules you're judging rota by are acceptable for your own products? Nothing else!



Miguel - Newera said:


> I'm sure Aki will be along to reply to your earlier posts here.


That's fine, it's a simple legal question as to what makes him 'qualified' to class rota wheels as counterfeit copies of Rays? Copyright is a strange thing and not just as straightforward as you're making it out to be.



Miguel - Newera said:


> I'm off to watch last night's Moto GP. :wavey:


Good idea, it might help you relax and subdue your paranoia hopefully...


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

OK, you win mattj. Have it your way. I'm outa here. You guys can continue this conversation amongst yourselves. For the sake of this thread I'm not interested having another pointless conversation with you where you insult me, etc. I've got better things to do.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

You made the irrelivant link to a historical event and assume I'm doing something other than asking a sensible question of why you think your product is any different from that of Rota's with respect to counterfeit and copyright law, you clearly show signs of paranoia so if merely stating that fact means I'm insulting you then sobeit.

Just looks like you've spat the dummy out of your pram because you couldn't answer the question, and that's your problem not mine Miguel.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

matt j said:


> How about you explain the difference between Rota Wheels / Rays Wheels and Nismo ducts / Your Ducts?
> 
> Zacetec Nissan Skyline R33 Carbon Bumper Ducts
> 
> Seems to me you're guilty by your own accusations of counterfeiting Nismo N1 ducts Miguel or are the rules different for you now?


Ooohhhh...interesting find Matt :thumbsup:

Sorry Miguel...any credibility you had in this debate is GONE im afraid...:sadwavey:

You now spit the dummy out and depart the debate....

Interesting behaviour.

TT


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Whatever... I've just bought a set of unobtainum Ohlins forks for my SP2 for a good price from someone I've been talking with about these in the UK. Something I'm very chuffed about. Maybe that makes me a fashion victim to some. I couldn't care less. 

I've had unpleasant experiences speaking with you in the past and make MY CHOICE not to respond to your insults. I really do have better things to do this evening! 

Moto GP starts in 20 mins and I'm 25 mins away, looks like I'll have to make it a quick ride over there. Nothing better!


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Some good points here, i think we have wondered off on a tangent a bit.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

FWIW I am in the position of having my own work copied and then resold at lower quality and price and it does nothing but damage the brand and reputation of the original. 

In that respect I abhor those companies that manufacture and sell the "style" items (wheels, bodykits etc) and I would include Rota in that catagory. While they may not be selling their wheels as an equivilent of the Rays they are clearly attempting to take away potential Rays customers with designs that are almost identicle. And yes the wheels will certainly be manufactured to a saftey standard and be perfectly fine to use but it is still intellectual theft.

I would be hesitent to purchase them for my car for that reason alone, however blind brand loyalty is something to be avoided, I was one of those that bucked the trend and put eagle rods in my engine build and they were perfect and a very reasonable cost when compared to the main brands.

I will also offer a certain amount of defence for Miguel (not that he needs it from me) there is a clear difference in recreating a part that is no longer available for purchase other than on the second hand market (a replica) to copying an item that is still widely circulated and available from the primary manufacturer.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

I'm here! - At my friend's place. On my way over I thought about this - maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt you're not just trying to cause trouble. ONE response mattj and you can make of it what you will.

We supply replica, fake, call it what you like - discontinued parts that were originally made by Nissan as optional catalogued items. Much the same as a company may sell floor mats of the same shape, or another company sell fibreglass screen surrounds for MG's because the steel ones aren't available.
I give these as examples because they all fall into the same category. The parts are made in Japan and if you tell Nissan they won't be the least bothered, they're well aware there are replica parts being made. 

Just as replica parts are made for other classic cars, We're supporting keeping parts available for Skyline GT-R's that would otherwise NOT be available. If that doesn't meet with your approval I really don't care.

Now, let the thread continue it's course about Imitation wheels v genuine. 
Aki's discovery today was an important one and surely that deserves merit of discussion. If you want to crap it, that's your choice I don't want to be a part of it. Anyways, enough - onto the Moto GP now.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Would it be fair to assume Rotas are cheap replicas of Rays?


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

rep·li·ca
[rep-li-kuh] Show IPA 

noun 
1. 
a copy or reproduction of a work of art produced by the maker of the original or under his or her supervision. 

2. 
any close or exact copy or reproduction. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin: 
1815***8211;25; < Italian: reply, repetition, derivative of replicare to repeat < Late Latin replic***257;re to reply 


Synonyms 
2. duplicate, facsimile; imitation.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Simonh said:


> rep·li·ca
> [rep-li-kuh] Show IPA
> 
> noun
> ...


Number two? (No pun intended?)


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> I'm here! - At my friend's place. On my way over I thought about this - maybe I should give you the benefit of the doubt you're not just trying to cause trouble. ONE response mattj and you can make of it what you will.


You took this thread off topic Miguel by referring to a previous thread, I made no attempt but saw a hypocritical post to which I responded, nothin more, nothing less. In being so wrapped up in thinking I'm causing trouble over something of no bearing in this discussion you actually took umbrage.



Miguel - Newera said:


> We supply replica, fake, call it what you like - discontinued parts that were originally made by Nissan as optional catalogued items.


And that was the point I made.



Miguel - Newera said:


> Just as replica parts are made for other classic cars, We're supporting keeping parts available for Skyline GT-R's that would otherwise NOT be available. If that doesn't meet with your approval I really don't care.


Are they made under licence?



Miguel - Newera said:


> Now, let the thread continue it's course about Imitation wheels v genuine.


It's part of the course, you were discovering a great find by Aki and I questioned what made him qualified to do so.



Miguel - Newera said:


> Aki's discovery today was an important one and surely that deserves merit of discussion. If you want to crap it, that's your choice I don't want to be a part of it.


Ok, what's to say 1 of the 7 differences of copyright is that the marking represents something else, is of a different size and dimensions but just looks similar? Is it still counterfeit? Discuss...


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

I think when something carries the marking of a testing standard that they haven't carried out that we could consider it counterfeit. 

One can surmise that having seen the VIA logo on many other wheels that Rota didn't consider the need to remove it from their copies, or that they deliberately included in on the design in order to deceive.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

There is an interesting question about replicas.

I have always had a love for Lancia Stratoses (Stratii?) but then chances of owning one is pretty slim plus I doubt it would be a usable car for me.

There is a kitcar company called Hawk (I think) who makes a kit which is essentially a spaceframe chassis with GRP bodywork. This is the same basis idea as the Stratos and the bodywork is designed to look like a Stratos. Of course the engine won't be a Ferrari/Dino v6 but you can build them with the Alfa v6.

I have a desired to build one with the v6 out of a 147/156GTA and update the other parts to modern stuff. Now I don't kid myself that it would be a proper Stratos but rather a car which looks like a Stratos and share the same basic layout. It might even be better built and faster...

Is the above the same as a Rota wheel? I'm not sure to be honest. I know that Ferrari pursue people who make Ferrari replica bodywork (even having them crushed in Italy I hear). I also believe that when BMW bought Rover and thus acquired a number of old British car brands they caused problems for the manufacturers of reproduction original parts (since discontinued when the originator brands were dissolved into BL).

That suggests that companies do take this sort of thing seriously (some more than others) and feel that 'replica' or 'fakes' or whatever are worth pursuing.

Perhaps I'm wrong in fancying a (replica) Stratos or even the Lancia 037 kit which I saw in development a few years back (based on a Monte Carlo).


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Cris said:


> There is an interesting question about replicas.
> 
> I have always had a love for Lancia Stratoses (Stratii?) but then chances of owning one is pretty slim plus I doubt it would be a usable car for me.
> 
> ...


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

friend of mine on facebook just hit a pothole with a set of rotas, instead of bending the rim (like they would with forged) it smashed the lip off, he ordered the exact same wheel and from the same store, and it arrived a different colour :lol:










just to prove that forged will bend, here's my rays that came off a written off R34, obviously some will point out that they were not the same "senario" but there is no denying forged are stronger


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## Gaz. (Mar 4, 2013)

Lol I saw that on Clive's Facebook too.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

matt j said:


> That's fine, it's a simple legal question as to what makes him 'qualified' to class rota wheels as counterfeit copies of Rays? Copyright is a strange thing and not just as straightforward as you're making it out to be.
> 
> 
> Good idea, it might help you relax and subdue your paranoia hopefully...


Matt, I'll be happy to answer your "simple legal question" when you can explain to me how copyright would apply to this situation. 

You see, copyright is the intellectual property right associated with works of authorship and artistic expression. 

This might work, actually, if you are saying that Rays wheels are "works of art" but I doubt that most courts, and most people reading this, will agree. (even though yes, it sure feels that way I'm sure opening up that box for the first time...)

I think perhaps you were referring to trademark or perhaps design patent in the US (I think in the UK this is referred to simply as "design") 

Intellectual Property Office - Welcome to the Intellectual Property Office

Certainly, you don't appear qualified to even ask the proper question. 

AND, just to be clear, when did I say I was qualified to label ROTAs as fakes? What I said was, "Just don't delude yourself and others that these wheels are just copies, because others are justified in calling these wheels fakes." In other words, the decision to call something "fake" is personal, depending on how one interprets facts that are presented to him. And this is based on one's own values and experience. So I am just as qualified as you to label ROTAs however I choose to.

I think you are letting your feelings of personal animosity towards Miguel and myself (mostly Miguel?), cloud your thinking. Chill out man, we are all on this forum to have fun, trade information and opinions, and generally have a good time, not trade barbs at each other (so this comment is directed at Miguel too).

In any case, see my next post please, where I will answer your second question which I think you directed at me, "Why hasn't Rays pursued Rota under copyright law if they are legally deemed as fake?" which I have interpreted as, "Why doesn't Rays pursue legal action against ROTA?"


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

Seems like your friend hit a kerb at speed. I did the same on my old car, wheel adjacent to kerb and it clipped the lip off but not as much as that.

What about these:


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

matt j said:


> Fake in legal terms is quite a statement to make tbh.
> 
> I think you have to ask the simple question when: _To counterfeit means to imitate something. Counterfeit products are fake replicas of the real product. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product._ Why hasn't Rays pursued Rota under copyright law if they are legally deemed as fake?


Actually - and I hope everyone can read this without getting all spun up, or finding fault in what I say, etc. - this is actually a very good question! It all boils down to economics (pull up a chair, grab a beer, and get ready...) and unfortunately, no easy answer, so long as consumers continue to choose the "replica" option and in essence, condone intellectual property theft.

As I stated earlier, your question "Why hasn't Rays pursued Rota under copyright law if they are legally deemed as fake?" is problematic, because for one, copyright law is not involved, and two, because if something is already legally deemed as fake, you would not have to pursue them in court, you've already pursed and won!

So, I've interpreted your question to simply be, "Why doesn't Rays pursue legal action against ROTA"?

Unfortunately, I can't speak for Rays because I haven't spoken with them, but I HAVE spoken with the presidents and senior managers of Do-Luck, Tomei, HKS, and Mine's all who have suffered from counterfeit /replica/fake versions of their products in the market. The reason they don't do anything is always the same - the economics of hiring attorneys and other agents to stomp out all intellectual property theft around the world is a losing proposition, unless you are a huge, usually multi-national, corporation. The tuners, and even Rays and HKS, are small or midsize companies, that, while profitable, simply do not have the economic capacity to protect their intellectual property overseas, or even if they do, realize that it's a zero sum game. 

Let's take Do-Luck as an example. Do-Luck, as most of you know, make lots of original design body kits. By nature, these are very easy to copy, and of course people do, in countries all over the world, calling them "Do-Luck style body kits." The intellectual property theft in question would probably be violation of the "look and feel" of the product ("trade dress"), along with unauthorized use of the trademark "Do-Luck." So what could Ito-san of Do-Luck do? By the time he is done hiring an attorney to file a lawsuit, file the court fees, and then win, the counterfeiter has closed down shop, dissolved his business, and started anew. Or, another counterfeiter pops up to take the other's place. And the process would begin again. And this is in only one country, this process would have to be replicated across the globe, under different laws and with varying degrees of success (i.e. you would lose in China, as the courts there are notoriously pro-Chinese party, even in the face of overwhelming evidence). Further, if the counterfeiter chose to fight back legally, then legal fees would begin to accumulate.

In addition, in order to have the strongest chance of winning in court, most jurisdictions require advance _registration _ of that intellectual property. So in the case of Do-Luck, they would have to register ever new product, in all jurisdictions where their product might only be sold, but where a counterfeit might be made - and yes this is very costly to do.

The result? In order to stay in business, Do-Luck would have to raise prices on its parts, which of course is a lose-lose proposition for the consumers who choose to buy genuine, as well as Do-Luck, as some consumers would no doubt choose to buy elsewhere. As we all know, these JDM parts are already expensive to begin with, due primarily to high (but very skilled) labor costs. As consumers, do we really want these prices getting even higher, in order to stamp out intellectual property theft? Does Do-Luck want to risk alienating their customers? Of course not. Is all this really worth the trouble and expense, so long as Do-Luck can remain in business? Of course not.

I would GUESS that the situation is the same with Rays and their wheels. Yes, they could pursue ROTA legally, but ROTA isn't dumb either - as several people have pointed out, ROTA hasn't put the Rays name on any of the ROTA wheels. Therefore, no trademark violation. Rays' argument would therefore be based mostly on trade dress as well as any design patents, if they have any (and if they have registered in advance, as well). So the legal case would be more difficult to prove - they would in essence have to find someone at ROTA to admit that yes, they copied Rays. AND, why should Rays go about doing this alone, when other wheel manufacturers have also been similarly victimized? Further, given the various laws around the world, there will be different levels of proof, etc. So in the end, would all this really be worth it? I'm sure that, while there is recognition of the IP theft by Rota at Rays (as demonstrated by what they are doing with their newer wheels), the cost/benefit of whether to pursue redress by legal means simply is not high enough.

Incidentally, the entity that actually has the strongest legal standing against ROTA would be the JWTC, for the improper and unauthorized use of the VIA logo. But as my conversation revealed today, they are concerned with what happens in Japan. Outside Japan, outside their scope of responsibility.

So where does this leave us?

Regardless of the terminology used, ROTA copies designs by Rays (and others). ROTA stays in business because 1) consumers who buy ROTAs, and try to convince others, don't care about intellectual property theft, and 2) Rays (and others) have apparently made the decision that it's not worth the effort, time and expense to pursue legal action against ROTA. (suing is not always the right answer). "Simple"as that, I think.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> friend of mine on facebook just hit a pothole with a set of rotas, instead of bending the rim (like they would with forged) it smashed the lip off, he ordered the exact same wheel and from the same store, and it arrived a different colour :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think we acknowledge the rays rims will be stronger, and i think we can also assume neither rim is repairable.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Which ones are imitation?


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## Natbrat300 (Mar 6, 2012)

Exactly!

And how long is it going to take to obtain a single new or used rays rim, compared to a rota, not to mention the cost, everytime you hit a pot hole. People know that rays are stronger than rotas thats why they cost twice the price!

Some people choose to buy rays, some people choose to buy rotas, GET OVER IT.





R32 Combat said:


> I think we acknowledge the rays rims will be stronger, and i think we can also assume neither rim is repairable.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

wildboy said:


> Cris said:
> 
> 
> > There is an interesting question about replicas.
> ...


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Was trying to find a Rays wheel which looked vaguely the same as a BBS to explain the point about being lighter than BBS rims like for like (and finding that the Rays site only quotes the weights on certain wheels and BBS not at all :bawling.

Anyway I noted the below wheel which reminded me of something:










Anyway the point I was getting to is if the BBS website is correct none of their range is forged? Have they stopped doing it perhaps?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> friend of mine on facebook just hit a pothole with a set of rotas, instead of bending the rim (like they would with forged)


There is NO WAY you can come out and casually say that forged rims WOULD HAVE just bent and not cracked.

Again, unless you exposed a forged rim to EXACTLY the same conditions that the Rota endured you CANNOT make any assumptions as to the outcome.

TT


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Cris said:


> wildboy said:
> 
> 
> > OT but please bear with me!
> ...


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> There is NO WAY you can come out and casually say that forged rims WOULD HAVE just bent and not cracked.
> 
> Again, unless you exposed a forged rim to EXACTLY the same conditions that the Rota endured you CANNOT make any assumptions as to the outcome.
> 
> TT


i knew someone would say this, hence why i put the pointless disclaimer in, but .. really... REALLY... do you honestly think that the breaking point of cast wheels and forged wheels would be the same ...

FWIW i can make the assumption and did, because it's perfectly logical


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> i knew someone would say this, hence why i put the pointless disclaimer in, but .. really... REALLY... do you honestly think that the breaking point of cast wheels and forged wheels would be the same ...
> 
> FWIW i can make the assumption and did, because it's perfectly logical


Come on guys, read the posts.

We have already concluded that a forged rim might be stronger. That's not the point of the discussion is it?


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

to be honest i'm not quite sure what the point is, but surely strength and safety plays a part ^^

my apologies in reviving this point, didn't want to upset anyone, just saw it on my facebook wall and found it appropriate


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

akasakaR33 said:


> Matt, I'll be happy to answer your "simple legal question" when you can explain to me how copyright would apply to this situation.


It was my understanding that under the 'Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 Part V Patent Agents and Trade Mark Agents and Part VI Patents' would be where any claim of 'copying' would be determined; I am of course presuming that Rays patented the DESIGN of the wheel and agree there is a distinct overlap with copyright/trademark/patent law, if I'm wrong I am happy to retract.



akasakaR33 said:


> You see, copyright is the intellectual property right associated with works of authorship and artistic expression.


I agree but that is not the limitation of the copyright law as explained above.



akasakaR33 said:


> This might work, actually, if you are saying that Rays wheels are "works of art" but I doubt that most courts, and most people reading this, will agree. (even though yes, it sure feels that way I'm sure opening up that box for the first time...)


Mine are a work of art  but also the design patent can be copyrighted to effectively protect the image of the wheel if you wanted to go to such lengths.



akasakaR33 said:


> I think perhaps you were referring to trademark or perhaps design patent in the US (I think in the UK this is referred to simply as "design")


No, you were referring to the VIA trademark, I was referring to the design/patent of the wheel. As I've said, it would appear very easy to circumvent these and produce a wheel which looks similar and has similar logos on it; I still don't think you're qualified to make that assessment (oh, and it was Miguel who clearly wrote that you were qualified to make the statement, I appreciate it wasn't you who said it). 



akasakaR33 said:


> Certainly, you don't appear qualified to even ask the proper question.


I'm not qualified to ask a question because you didn't know copyright law overlaps patent and trademark law and covers the design patent? Odd don't you think.



akasakaR33 said:


> AND, just to be clear, when did I say I was qualified to label ROTAs as fakes? What I said was, "Just don't delude yourself and others that these wheels are just copies, because others are justified in calling these wheels fakes." In other words, the decision to call something "fake" is personal, depending on how one interprets facts that are presented to him. And this is based on one's own values and experience. So I am just as qualified as you to label ROTAs however I choose to.


How are they fake, they may look similar to Rays but show me where they use the exact same design and decals to try and pass themselves off as Rays?



akasakaR33 said:


> I think you are letting your feelings of personal animosity towards Miguel and myself (mostly Miguel?), cloud your thinking. Chill out man, we are all on this forum to have fun, trade information and opinions, and generally have a good time, not trade barbs at each other (so this comment is directed at Miguel too).


I share a different opinion to you and Miguel in THIS topic, there is only you and Miguel trying to make out its about a different topic which is low tbh. I'm here having fun, I'm building my car and enjoying it and in the meantime expressing my opinion in a topical debate, apart from stating that Miguel is using past history to misrepresent comments and being paranoid then what other barbs have I traded? Clearly you both feel differently so I suppose on every thread I post where I have a different opinion to either of you, I'm in the wrong; are you intentionally trying to bully me?:thumbsup:



akasakaR33 said:


> Actually - and I hope everyone can read this without getting all spun up, or finding fault in what I say, etc. - this is actually a very good question! It all boils down to economics (pull up a chair, grab a beer, and get ready...) and unfortunately, no easy answer, so long as consumers continue to choose the "replica" option and in essence, condone intellectual property theft.


Copyright or trademark? 



akasakaR33 said:


> As I stated earlier, your question "Why hasn't Rays pursued Rota under copyright law if they are legally deemed as fake?" is problematic, because for one, copyright law is not involved, and two, because if something is already legally deemed as fake, you would not have to pursue them in court, you've already pursed and won!


Surely Rays have patented their design and it can be legally deemed as fake but not contested. A bit like knocking sense into someone and them not pressing charges.



akasakaR33 said:


> So, I've interpreted your question to simply be, "Why doesn't Rays pursue legal action against ROTA"?


Not a bad interpretation 



akasakaR33 said:


> Unfortunately, I can't speak for Rays because I haven't spoken with them, but I HAVE spoken with the presidents and senior managers of Do-Luck, Tomei, HKS, and Mine's all who have suffered from counterfeit/replica/fake versions of their products in the market. The reason they don't do anything is always the same - the economics of hiring attorneys and other agents to stomp out all intellectual property theft around the world is a losing proposition, unless you are a huge, usually multi-national, corporation. The tuners, and even Rays and HKS, are small or midsize companies, that, while profitable, simply do not have the economic capacity to protect their intellectual property overseas, or even if they do, realize that it's a zero sum game.


In the cases of counterfeit parts, I wholly agree but Rotas are not counterfeit parts, they are of a similar design which obviously is hard to comprehend for some purists but they are sold in their own right under a different name and trade mark are they not?



akasakaR33 said:


> Let's take Do-Luck as an example. Do-Luck, as most of you know, make lots of original design body kits. By nature, these are very easy to copy, and of course people do, in countries all over the world, calling them "Do-Luck style body kits." The intellectual property theft in question would probably be violation of the "look and feel" of the product ("trade dress"), along with unauthorized use of the trademark "Do-Luck." So what could Ito-san of Do-Luck do? By the time he is done hiring an attorney to file a lawsuit, file the court fees, and then win, the counterfeiter has closed down shop, dissolved his business, and started anew. Or, another counterfeiter pops up to take the other's place. And the process would begin again. And this is in only one country, this process would have to be replicated across the globe, under different laws and with varying degrees of success (i.e. you would lose in China, as the courts there are notoriously pro-Chinese party, even in the face of overwhelming evidence). Further, if the counterfeiter chose to fight back legally, then legal fees would begin to accumulate.


The Rota wheels are not being sold under the Rays trade marks so this is not the same scenario at all.



akasakaR33 said:


> I would GUESS that the situation is the same with Rays and their wheels. Yes, they could pursue ROTA legally, but ROTA isn't dumb either - as several people have pointed out, ROTA hasn't put the Rays name on any of the ROTA wheels. Therefore, no trademark violation. Rays' argument would therefore be based mostly on trade dress as well as any design patents, if they have any (and if they have registered in advance, as well). So the legal case would be more difficult to prove - they would in essence have to find someone at ROTA to admit that yes, they copied Rays. AND, why should Rays go about doing this alone, when other wheel manufacturers have also been similarly victimized? Further, given the various laws around the world, there will be different levels of proof, etc. So in the end, would all this really be worth it? I'm sure that, while there is recognition of the IP theft by Rota at Rays (as demonstrated by what they are doing with their newer wheels), the cost/benefit of whether to pursue redress by legal means simply is not high enough.


Finally we're getting there, so you can see now that they are not copies...



akasakaR33 said:


> Incidentally, the entity that actually has the strongest legal standing against ROTA would be the JWTC, for the improper and unauthorized use of the VIA logo. But as my conversation revealed today, they are concerned with what happens in Japan. Outside Japan, outside their scope of responsibility.


As I said earlier, you're presuming that the 'VIA official logo' is being used and not something that just happens to look similar, who knows perhaps in their patent (if they have one lol) it's actually V1A and means something completely different. You are assuming a lot.



akasakaR33 said:


> Regardless of the terminology used, ROTA copies designs by Rays (and others). ROTA stays in business because 1) consumers who buy ROTAs, and try to convince others, don't care about intellectual property theft, and 2) Rays (and others) have apparently made the decision that it's not worth the effort, time and expense to pursue legal action against ROTA. (suing is not always the right answer). "Simple"as that, I think.


It would be a lost cause to try and sue Rota, they are not counterfeit copies, they just look similar! Had they been a cheap Chinese copy with Rays decals etc then your points would be valid but they simply aren't.

Again, I don't like Rota wheels and have 2 sets of Rays but I understand why people buy them and understand that they are not counterfeit copies...


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> to be honest i'm not quite sure what the point is, but surely strength and safety plays a part ^^
> 
> my apologies in reviving this point, didn't want to upset anyone, just saw it on my facebook wall and found it appropriate


Safety is important, and I do not recall a failure of either wheel in 'normal' circumstances. Ok, a forged wheel can be more resistant to damage in accident conditions, but does it really matter if you rip the hub off your car and the wheel is ok? 

Rotas might be seen to be imitating Rays, but they sell lots of rims and it's obviously a good business model, a businesses job is to make money. 

As weight is all important, and you can save a few kgs on wheels, people must know what tyres weight? I mean, who would by a light wheel and shod it with a heavy tire? That would be silly wouldn't it.

So, a few tire weights.

25 lbs (11.33kg)

Kumo 
26lbs (11.79kg)

Goodyear Run flat
30lbs (13.6kg)

Toyo
26lbs (11.8kg)

Goodyear Eagle GT
28lbs (12.7kg)

Hoosier
20lbs (9kg)


Bridgestone Potenza G 019 Grid
28lbs (12.7kg)

Bridgestone Potenza RE050
26lbs (11.8kg)

Kuhmo Escta V710
25lbs (11.3kg)


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Well tyres is a whole other argument! Grip would be more important than weight, IMHO.:thumbsup:


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

Here is a good site if you want to compare wheel weights/forged/cast/oem/aftermarket wheels

Wheel Weights Specs Guide


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> Safety is important, and I do not recall a failure of either wheel in 'normal' circumstances. Ok, a forged wheel can be more resistant to damage in accident conditions, but does it really matter if you rip the hub off your car and the wheel is ok?
> 
> Rotas might be seen to be imitating Rays, but they sell lots of rims and it's obviously a good business model, a businesses job is to make money.
> 
> ...


Not stupid at all, 3-4kgs lighter per corner just in the wheel should still be noticeable.
Obviously pairing them with a lighter tyre is win/win


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> Well tyres is a whole other argument! Grip would be more important than weight, IMHO.:thumbsup:


My point is people seem to be focussed on wheel weight, claiming performance advantages. But perhaps overlooking other factors that can give a much greater performance advantage for little or no money. Infact, a compilation of the ’best' parts might not be the best overall package.

It goes back to an earlier comment that people buy rays because they are light and enhance performance.


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> It goes back to an earlier comment that people buy rays because they are light and enhance performance.


That's one part of it, but it also suggests they just pick the first lightweight wheel they see and go with it.
Brake clearance, style, colour, maybe even the knowledge that they are VIA approved:chairshot will be factors.
You already know all this but given the choice between two similar looking and dimensioned wheels money isn't always the deciding factor, perhaps the fact one is lighter and will gain you a small performance advantage is worth the outlay.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Matt,

I don't really have time right now to address all of your interesting points, but I am afraid you are still confusing copyright and intellectual property in general.

"Copyright" as I used it, was referring to the general legal concept which most advanced nations recognize worldwide, which protects, as I said, works of authorship and artistic expressions. You are referring to the specific UK law which covers the entire spectrum of intellectual property law, IN the UK. IF you read the link that I posted earlier, you will see that the UK IP office does a great job of breaking down the different categories of intellectual property law.

Therefore, IF you MEANT to say "Why doesn't Rays sue ROTA in the UK under the 'Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 Part V Patent Agents and Trade Mark Agents and Part VI Patents' Law, then ok, sure I would agree. 

But I was just talking about a general legal concept. Copyright is NOT the same as Design and Patents and this is NOT the same as Trademark and Trade Dress, and I am not sure what you are saying when you say they "overlap." They "overlap" in that all of these are types of intellectual property, but each one is distinct in its characterization. 

To be precise -usually these IP rights do not overlap, but there are rare cases, and not applicable to our topic:
Trademark, Copyright and Logos | Plagiarism Today

So please be careful when using legal terms, precision is important otherwise this kind of confusion occurs.

In any case, the first step here would be to decide, under which legal concept, Rays could pursue Rota for intellectual property violation. What intellectual property does Rays have? Has it taken the appropriate steps, in each jurisdiction in which it wishes to bring a claim, to solidify its legal rights (if that is capable of being done - for example, getting a patent requires registration, vs. a copyright which is automatic).

IF there is indeed a showing of possible violation of Rays' intellectual property rights, then Rays would then sue ROTA in the appropriate court, and the strength of its case would depend on a variety of factors, such as previous registration, the extent of and type of infringement, and a showing of damages, as well as any request for equitable relief. Herein lies another problem which I have not yet discussed, which is, what remedies are available to Rays?

OK - and your other points briefly:
"Fake" - of course you are free to disagree (and I expect you will), but my PERSONAL definition of fake, is anytime a product copies another product's intellectual property - whether patent, trademark, trade dress) so that, to the uninformed, they appear to be the same product. Would you not agree that, from a distance, the TE37 and the TE37 replica appear to be the same? You would not know that one was forged and one was cast. The fact that they look exactly the same is enough to support an argument that the replica is meant to deceive, and anytime there is deception on a product, that to me is fakery. (the VIA logo is clearly deception, I think). Go ahead and disagree, you are entitled to!

Bullying. It was not my intention to do so, sorry if I came across that way. I agree the purpose of this forum is to have fun, share our experiences, and educate others. But when we educate others, we should not be spreading mis-information or inaccuracies, it does no one any good, right? I've learned a lot reading about your build and your experiences, and so I think the free exchange of opinions and experiences is healthy, so long as we keep it civil and don't let emotions take over. For this particular topic however, I happen to have more information and access to information than most other people, which I am sharing.

Rays - I would not be surprised if they have patented their designs only in Japan. Remember they would have to repeat this process in all of its international markets, although I understand that the EU recently made this easier by consolidating the process for the EU nations.

VIA logo - please take a look at a ROTA wheel next time and check, then. As I've only seen photos of the ROTAs and the logo looks identical. And even if not identical, if the design causes confusion, deliberately or not, then that is wrong and an element of intellectual property theft.

Do-Luck example. I was using the example to demonstrate an obvious, open and shut case of trade dress and trademark theft, and how even when the theft is so obvious, it still doesn't make sense economically for Do-Luck to pursue counterfeiters/replica makers. Compare this to the Rays vs ROTA situation, where Rays would have to sue ROTA under different, more tenuous theories of intellectual property theft. The economic argument makes even less sense. 

It would be a lost cause (for Rays to go after ROTA), not because ROTAs are not counterfeit and "just look similar" but because of the economics, as I described earlier. And there will always be a market for cheap wheels, as I said earlier, so someone would simply step in a take ROTA's place.

Finally, you and others are of course free to believe that ROTAs are not fakes or counterfeits but "merely" copies of Rays. My point is that the copying itself is a violation of intellectual property rights, and the fact we disagree about the nature of such copying, is why courts and lawyers get involved when people can't come to a common understanding. 

Ok - what next?? LOL.



matt j said:


> It was my understanding that under the 'Copyright, Design and Patents Act 1988 Part V Patent Agents and Trade Mark Agents and Part VI Patents' would be where any claim of 'copying' would be determined; I am of course presuming that Rays patented the DESIGN of the wheel and agree there is a distinct overlap with copyright/trademark/patent law, if I'm wrong I am happy to retract.
> 
> 
> I agree but that is not the limitation of the copyright law as explained above.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> Well tyres is a whole other argument! Grip would be more important than weight, IMHO.:thumbsup:


Agreed.


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## Max Boost (Apr 9, 2010)

Seems legit....


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

akasakaR33 said:


> I don't really have time right now to address all of your interesting points, but I am afraid you are still confusing copyright and intellectual property in general.
> 
> Ok - what next?? LOL.


I don't have time either, I'm off to catch a flight.

Just 1 last question then, if I'm confusing copyright, please explain why car companies such as Lotus and Ferrari have pursued kit car companies under copyright law in the UK, where this is the same situation with Rota and Rays is it not?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

> "Fake" - of course you are free to disagree (and I expect you will), but my PERSONAL definition of fake, is anytime a product copies another product's intellectual property - whether patent, trademark, trade dress) so that, to the uninformed, they appear to be the same product. Would you not agree that, from a distance, the TE37 and the TE37 replica appear to be the same? You would not know that one was forged and one was cast. The fact that they look exactly the same is enough to support an argument that the replica is meant to deceive, and anytime there is deception on a product, that to me is fakery. (the VIA logo is clearly deception, I think). Go ahead and disagree, you are entitled to!


Would seem to me that statement would support the fact that Miguels 'replica' :chuckle: air ducts are in fact 'fakes'. 

Only using YOUR statement and applied logic to reach a conclusion..

TT


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Would seem to me that statement would support the fact that Miguels 'replica' :chuckle: air ducts are in fact 'fakes'.


No it wouldn't.

"Fake" implies that an item _is being passed off as_ 'The Real Thing'. There's an inherent act of deception involved in a transaction that involves a fake. 

A "Replica" on the other hand is a far more subjective concept ( and, as we all know, subjectivity _itself_ is subjective... ), but there's no intention to profit from _deception_. Both parties in the trading relationship are clear that the item is a replica.


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> No it wouldn't.
> 
> "Fake" implies that an item _is being passed off as_ 'The Real Thing'. There's an inherent act of deception involved in a transaction that involves a fake.
> 
> A "Replica" on the other hand is a far more subjective concept ( and, as we all know, subjectivity _itself_ is subjective... ), but there's no intention to profit from _deception_. Both parties in the trading relationship are clear that the item is a replica.


That's the crux of the argument right there, a wheel labelled as Rota Grid is not attempting to call itself TE37


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

wildboy said:


> That's the crux of the argument right there, a wheel labelled as Rota Grid is not attempting to call itself TE37


No, but it has JWL / VIA markings when this is now known to be clearly fake.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

I think in the case of Neweras replicas you could look at it as to doing the true enthusiasts a favour by supplying parts for their cars that are no longer available from the manufacturer. 

I haven't got time for an in depth response yet but this thread is quickly becoming my favourite here, good debate and knowledge being passed on. 

Thanks Aki for making enquiries to further this discussion.


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

So how about the JWL VIA logos did they just dream these up? or do you think they were faking the Rays wheels there? 

if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and acts like a duck ...its a duck.


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Miguel - Newera said:


> No, but it has JWL / VIA markings when this is now known to be clearly fake.


I agree totally and am now even less likely to buy rotas, if they mislead on this what else are they lying about?


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

blitzer_bhoy said:


> So how about the JWL VIA logos did they just dream these up? or do you think they were faking the Rays wheels there?
> 
> if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and acts like a duck ...its a duck.


In the JWL/VIA bit they appear to be lying about being a duck!

Again I agree.
It would be interesting to measure up a rota grid and a te37 to ascertain if they have in fact just taken a straight mould of the te37 to make their wheels from and just ground off the rays bit on the back.
I also wonder if anyone at rota will tell us what they test their wheels to?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> No, but it has JWL / VIA markings when this is now known to be clearly fake.


It's a valid point, however, these marking are not rays specific.

If Rotas has Ray engineering cast into them, they I'd agree that they were fakes, but they do not.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I don't think the Rotas are 'fakes', although I have seen them with Rays stickers on that tends to be the owner of the wheels either not knowing or attempting to pass them off as such...and RAVS stickers as well!!!

The replica thing is tricky and why I suspect Rays haven't taken Rota to court. It's a very expensive and difficult thing to get a judgement on. Ferrari are a very rich company and jealously guard their designs. Because they've taken that tack, there are fewer companies taking them on - but they still exist! We've all seen ferrari bodied MR2s etc. I suspect for Rays the genie is out of the box and there's too much to stop to make it economically viable.

However, do Rotas sell because they look like Rays, right down to the 'VIA' mark? Hell yes!


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## AleX-34 (Mar 6, 2013)

As Toni says... Rota sells because of the looks of rays and not the other way around...

I would out my money in rays all day long...for me Rota wheels are not what they claim to be and therefore are cheap copies in my eyes!! 


My 2 cents

Alex


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> I don't think the Rotas are 'fakes', although I have seen them with Rays stickers on that tends to be the owner of the wheels either not knowing or attempting to pass them off as such...and RAVS stickers as well!!!
> 
> The replica thing is tricky and why I suspect Rays haven't taken Rota to court. It's a very expensive and difficult thing to get a judgement on. Ferrari are a very rich company and jealously guard their designs. Because they've taken that tack, there are fewer companies taking them on - but they still exist! We've all seen ferrari bodied MR2s etc. I suspect for Rays the genie is out of the box and there's too much to stop to make it economically viable.
> 
> However, do Rotas sell because they look like Rays, right down to the 'VIA' mark? Hell yes!


When I bought my Rotas from RK Tuning, I didn't know about all the specific markings found on JDM wheels. It certainly wansn't a sellling point for me and I suspect people who haven't read this thread don't know either?

If japspeed put a JASMA plaque on their exhausts, would they be trying to pass them off a HKS? No, I don't think so either. So, the whole VIA thing just doesn't hold water for me.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> So, the whole VIA thing just doesn't hold water for me.


Ignorance is no excuse.... 

Either the JWL/VIA stickers on the Rota wheels are genuine, or they are not. Cynics ( and realists... ) will say that _if they are not genuine_ then they must be there just to make the wheels _appear_ to conform to Japanese testing standards. On the face of it, that looks to be dishonest at the very least.



There are some interesting parallels to be drawn in the fashion world. I'm thinking particularly of the UK-based 'Superdry' brand, owned and run by SuperGroup plc. Their motto is: _"British Design; Spirit of Japan"_, and they go to great lengths to 'appear' to be a Japan-based brand. Many people are under the impression that Superdry is actually a Japanese company. I think Rota foster the same kind of mirage....

However, you won't see Superdry products on open sale in Japanese shops. Japanese beer brewer Asahi owns the 'Super Dry' name, and has indicated very strongly that it will protect that name in the Japanese market.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

PS30-SB said:


> Ignorance is no excuse....
> 
> Either the JWL/VIA stickers on the Rota wheels are genuine, or they are not. Cynics ( and realists... ) will say that _if they are not genuine_ then they must be there just to make the wheels _appear_ to conform to Japanese testing standards. On the face of it, that looks to be dishonest at the very least.
> 
> ...


I hear you, but these wheel marking are not owned by rays so although they are invalid markings, pretending to be something they are not, they are not related to imitating rays? I mean, they say ROTA on the center cap not rays.

Also, apparently aussies don't drink fosters?


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

This is what Rota have to say on the subject...

Quote from their own website

Process - ROTA Wheels


'Step two - Product designs in tune with world trends and ever-changing motorists' preferences

By regularly participating in international automotive exhibits such as the SEMA show in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA and the Automechanika show in Frankfurt, Germany plus some top local exhibits, PAWI gets a feel of the latest international and local trends including the best selling wheel designs and accessories. From these inputs, our design team is able to come up with totally new or modified, mixed and matched concept designs from which the selection process begins.This complements the painstaking yet worthwhile design reviews to ensure that the every detail is covered'



It would appear that they are following current fashon trends the same as many, many manufacturers do today.

The first that springs to mind is the clothing industry.....


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

This discussion could apply to many products right from breakfast cereals through to earth moving machinery and it has more facets than whether a product is an exact copy trying to pretend to be the real thing or it's just an imitation (the point of the OP). If something is an imitation that doesn't pretend to be the real thing, it is still a copy and in many case unlicensed, but it doesn't mean to say that it can't have the same qualities and functionality that the genuine article has. In the case of a fake that is trying to purport to be the real thing, then this is where we ought to be cautious. The real issue is deciding if one is more wrong than the other. Do people really believe that big name manufacturers don't copy other peoples designs and ideas? Of course they do, that is what allows products to evolve and I'd be prepared to stick my neck out and say that in some ways it's a good thing.

Coming back to my first comparisons, look at how supermarkets shamelessly copy the graphics on their own brand packaging from more expensive branded items, cereals and coffee being the most obvious. By implication they are suggesting the products are one in the same but with slightly different packaging. It is easy to mistake the two as they will be stacked next to one another. Is it acceptable?

Moving on to the earthmovers, JCB are a fairly successful company who most notably had one original idea in the form of the backhoe loader but now have a massive product range with a lot of ideas copied (stolen) from competitors. They have the power to fight off legal action, even when in the wrong. Is that acceptable?

For me the most deciding factor (for wheels) would be functionality followed by cost. Lets not forget that the big names often take a cheap item, badge it as their own to get a 300% markup and then laugh all the way to the bank so let's not feel too sorry for them. They can't have it all ways but well known names will always have an amount of blind, brand loyalty and I'd guess they factor in a degree if getting designs ripped off. This thread proves there is no black and white answers.

Anyway, Rotas wouldn't bother me but I would have Rays or BBS if the budget allowed


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

R32 Combat said:


> When I bought my Rotas from RK Tuning, I didn't know about all the specific markings found on JDM wheels. It certainly wansn't a sellling point for me and I suspect people who haven't read this thread don't know either?
> 
> If japspeed put a JASMA plaque on their exhausts, would they be trying to pass them off a HKS? No, I don't think so either. So, the whole VIA thing just doesn't hold water for me.


No but I bet you bought them because you liked how they looked on your car. Who designed that look? What's more I bet some people do buy them because they _look_ like Rays but don't _cost_ the same. 

The VIA thing is implying a mark of quality the wheels obviously don't have...but as you say most people wouldn't really know about that and it probably doesn't influence purchases on the whole.

As an aside, years ago I was involved in a court case as a witness because I picked up something which was imitating Polyfiller, similar packaging and name. Polyfiller won their case (or at least it was settled out of court). The crux of that case is that people thought the brand WAS polyfiller. So I'd suggest Rota have been very careful and clever by not calling themselves something too similar to Rays....


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Rays Eng was established 40 years ago and PIWA 30 years ago. PIWA must have been thinking well ahead with their name if they intended to copy Rays wheels in 1983... Foresight indeed...


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

OK fair point. However, who'd heard of them before they started doing replica Rays?:thumbsup:


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

BTW an interview with the owner of Rota:



> MSR: It is best to look for manufacturing standards of a wheel before buying it. The popular one is the JWL (Japan Wheel License) and VIA (Vehicle Inspection Authority), both standards coming from Japan, which have been accepted worldwide as well. But of course, some unscrupulous sellers might just put these marks on their wheels. So it is best to research about the brand before buying it.


LOL.

However they also claim this:


> they all go through rigorous testing methods that are actually beyond the standards set by the JWL and VIA of Japan, which are requirements for wheels exported to Japan and some countries as well.


But I think I will take what he says with a pinch of salt, as he also claims other manufacturers copy his designs....though I think it interesting he says 'cheap chinese copies' are also hurting Rota! I guess the world is full circle after all.

http://tuned.autoindustriya.com/rota-wheels


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> But I think I will take what he says with a pinch of salt, as he also claims other manufacturers copy his designs....though I think it interesting he says 'cheap chinese copies' are also hurting Rota! I guess the world is full circle after all.


Dotz GTR Alloy Wheels | Dotz GTR Alloys

19" CRUIZE GTR G ALLOY WHEELS FIT NISSAN 200SX S14 S15 300ZX 350Z 370Z SKYLINE | eBay


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Question on Durability of ROTA Wheels? | CustomPinoyRides.com - Pinoy Pride In Our Rides!

Interesting read...


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

So good it posted it twice!


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

It is worth noting that the forging process limits design, something a car manufacture does not want. You cast almost any shape. Look at pistons, a forged piston is not the optimum shape, which is why they weigh more than cast.


----------



## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

"OEM Wheels: Nissan GT-R vs. New Mitsubishi Outlander"

Ohhhhh snap!


----------



## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Good thread matt.

Now, who's going into the r35 section to tell them all they drive big fat nissan outlanders:runaway:


----------



## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

wildboy said:


> Good thread matt.
> 
> Now, who's going into the r35 section to tell them all they drive big fat nissan outlanders:runaway:


You mean they're not a pumped up Renault 25?


----------



## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Here's something to offend you lot.










Beautiful ;-)


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)




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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Trev said:


> Here's something to offend you lot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's no TE37 though is it.

Still perhaps if you had a gtr you would put a proper wheel on it 







:flame::flame::flame::flame:


----------



## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Simonh said:


> It's no TE37 though is it.
> 
> Still perhaps if you had a gtr you would put a proper wheel on it
> 
> ...


Lol.

I have a proper Skyline (GTST) so I use proper wheels ;-)


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> OK fair point. However, who'd heard of them before they started doing replica Rays?:thumbsup:


Rays are not the only designs they plagiarise. 

For example, the Rota 'Shakotan' is a copy of the Hayashi 'Street' mag, The Rota 'Aleica' is a copy of the original Yayoi 'Sakura' mag and the Rota 'RB' is a copy of the RS Watanabe 'Hachi-Spo', and so on.....


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

matt j said:


> Question on Durability of ROTA Wheels? | CustomPinoyRides.com - Pinoy Pride In Our Rides!
> 
> Interesting read...


Thats a VERY interesting read....

In fact, probably worth putting up in its entirety within this thread. The wheels that are used for comparison are EXACTLY what I was trying to get across the other day...

TT


----------



## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

I think rota has been unfairly picked out on this discussion and obviously there not the only wheel that are very similar to other wheels ie varrstoen wheels are again a spit if not exactly the same as the te37.. It's not like rota are the only wheel manufacturers out there doing the same thing


----------



## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

matt j said:


> Question on Durability of ROTA Wheels? | CustomPinoyRides.com - Pinoy Pride In Our Rides!
> 
> Interesting read...


Very interesting read there's a lot of facts there that make me realise that my saving are justified and why I'm glad I bought what I did


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> Would seem to me that statement would support the fact that Miguels 'replica' :chuckle: air ducts are in fact 'fakes'.
> 
> Only using YOUR statement and applied logic to reach a conclusion..
> 
> TT


TT - a valid point. I will then modify to say that, IF the originals are NO LONGER AVAILABLE, then we can call them "replicas." If the copies COMPETE WITH THE ORIGINALS THAT ARE ALSO CURRENTLY AVAILABLE, then they are fakes.

Glad to see some proper analysis there, buddy! :thumbsup:


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

matt j said:


> I don't have time either, I'm off to catch a flight.
> 
> Just 1 last question then, if I'm confusing copyright, please explain why car companies such as Lotus and Ferrari have pursued kit car companies under copyright law in the UK, where this is the same situation with Rota and Rays is it not?


Hi Matt,

Hope you had a nice flight.

Not sure what that is TBH, but if you could find me links to the articles, we can discuss further. 

Meanwhile, I stick to my explanation, and unless you have a law degree, I would recommend you speak to your local solicitor before explaining legal concepts to others.


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

knighty84 said:


> I think rota has been unfairly picked out on this discussion and obviously there not the only wheel that are very similar to other wheels ie varrstoen wheels are again a spit if not exactly the same as the te37.. It's not like rota are the only wheel manufacturers out there doing the same thing


Valid point, agree 100%. And it's not just wheels either, as many have pointed out here.

Tricky thing, intellectual property theft...


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

matt j said:


> Question on Durability of ROTA Wheels? | CustomPinoyRides.com - Pinoy Pride In Our Rides!
> 
> Interesting read...


Agree interesting read. And again, I've never questioned the DURABILITY of ROTA wheels, have I? We all now understand, I think, that the real thing is forged, and the ROTAs are cast, right?

My beef is that this is a case of intellectual property theft and misrepresentation. 

The article is well written as an argumentative piece, but fails on several points, including:

1) The fact that there are OEMs out there with wheels that look the same (uh, did the author bother to research WHO actually made those wheels he put up for comparison - Rays and Enkei are OEM suppliers too, and Rays and Enkei make wheels for other brands too - did he know that?), is irrelevant to THIS conversation.

It's like what you tell your kids - just because others do it, doesn't mean you can.

2) And then of course, there is the whole VIA misrepresentation thing....a further reading of the JWTC website (in Japanese) reminded me that the JWL logo is ALSO aimed primarily for domestic (Japan) use.

3) As for ROTA being OEM suppliers, sure, why not? All those manufacturers have overseas plants, and those plants use local suppliers. So not surprising. But he needs to explain where he got this info....

Next time I get a chance, I will ask my friends at Nissan whether they use ROTAs, ok?

4) Motorsport. I would be impressed if there were racing teams at top levels such as any Formula series or Rally, that use ROTA wheels. That, to me, would be convincing that ROTA is on the up and up. (in addition to actually coming up with their own unique designs).


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

akasakaR33 said:


> 3) As for ROTA being OEM suppliers, sure, why not? All those manufacturers have overseas plants, and those plants use local suppliers. So not surprising. But he needs to explain where he got this info....QUOTE]
> 
> Check Rota's website
> 
> ...


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

TTOBES said:


> akasakaR33 said:
> 
> 
> > 3) As for ROTA being OEM suppliers, sure, why not? All those manufacturers have overseas plants, and those plants use local suppliers. So not surprising. But he needs to explain where he got this info....QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

TTOBES said:


> AkasakaR33 said:
> 
> 
> > 3) As for ROTA being OEM suppliers, sure, why not? All those manufacturers have overseas plants, and those plants use local suppliers. So not surprising. But he needs to explain where he got this info....QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

A bit of humour for your morning...

For all lovers of fake wheels, the world is your oyster in China. 
Only you'll know you're rolling on "ricer" wheels!! 

Te37,Te37 Products, Te37 Suppliers and Manufacturers at Alibaba.com

What's the difference between these and Rota? Just a few stickers, that's all.
You can even get some fake Rota stickers made up so they look like the real thing!!!


----------



## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

This is one of those situations where one side of an argument will never ever convince the other to change their mind, very similar to the copy body kit buyers in fact.

Those that have brought 'the real thing' need to justify (to themselves at least) that the extra money was worth it. Those that brought the copy/imitation item need to justify (again at least to themselves) that 'the real thing' wasn't worth the extra money.

hopefully a couple of interesting questions that it would be nice if people answered honestly.

for the who have brought rota's put a set of new TE37's next to a set of new Rota imitations for the same price - which would you buy?

for those who have brought Rays, BBS etc if Rota designed a unique wheel in the size and fitment you needed that appealed to your sense of asthetic and the price was good - would you consider buying it?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

akasakaR33 said:


> Meanwhile, I stick to my explanation, and unless you have a law degree, I would recommend you speak to your local solicitor before explaining legal concepts to others.


I think you'll find I asked why Rays haven't pursued Rota under copyright law (as here in the UK) when other manufacturers such as Lotus/Ferrari/Ford etc have pursued kit car companies for copyright infringement.
You've responded by giving your interpretation of international law and presumed it to be the same for the UK, seems its actually you who is explaining legal concepts not me Ak, im just asking questions based on other accounts of similar actions.



Miguel - Newera said:


> No, but it has JWL / VIA markings when this is now known to be clearly fake.





akasakaR33 said:


> 2) And then of course, there is the whole VIA misrepresentation thing....a further reading of the JWTC website (in Japanese) reminded me that the JWL logo is ALSO aimed primarily for domestic (Japan) use.


Ok, besides a phone call you made to someone you know, please give PROOF that Rota wheels are not entitled to stamp the VIA mark on their wheels through testing performed under either Rota, a subsidiary of Rota or a third party sub-contractor under licence.

Then I'll happily admit you are correct that the wheels are fake, that's fair wouldn't you agree?


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Matt - you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, law-wise, so I can only conclude that you are doing this to piss me off. Which really is pathetic.

Like I said, find the link or article, or whatever, that show that Lotus, Ferrari, and Ford are using "copyright law" to sue these kit manufacturers - FYI I searched and could not find it, maybe you are better at internet searches than I am - in which case, I can read it and then intelligently respond to your question. In the absence of that, as you have demonstrated you have no idea what copyright law really is, I cannot intelligently and constructively answer your question.

If you want me to answer according to what you posted, then again, YOU ARE WRONG, and I AM RIGHT, about copyright law. Whether in the UK, US, Japan, or anywhere with a legitimate legal system, copyright would not normally be used to pursue this kind of intellectual property theft, ok? Why is it that you cannot understand my explanation as to the difference between the CONCEPT of copyright law, vs. what the codified law is in the UK? Is this topic beyond comprehension for you?

As for VIA - why don't you call them, and ask yourself then. Here is their number - 81-3-5902-3455. Even better, why don't you call ROTA, or one of its distributors who speaks English, and ask them for proof of certification? I would be thrilled to see such proof, really!

I think I have done a fair job providing enough proof of my position, the onus is now on YOU to prove that ROTA has indeed properly obtained VIA certification.

Finally, I could care less about what you think about ROTA, whether they are fake or not. I'm not doing this to make you happy, or to change your mind - in fact I know that:

1) some of you enjoy spending time attempting to poke holes in my argument, just for the sake of doing so, 
2) some of you are not going to believe anything I post, no matter what

And that's ok with me. 

I am spending my time contributing to this discussion, in order to clarify commonly held misconceptions as well as well as misinformation, so that our friends and fellow car enthusiasts, can make an intelligent, well informed decision when deciding how to spend their well earned money.


----------



## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

I still don't understand why rays don't persue it legally. If its such a blatant case of ip theft then Rota will end up paying all costs anyway. 

The whole thing is very similar to apple v Samsung IMO


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Miguel - Newera said:


> A bit of humour for your morning...
> 
> For all lovers of fake wheels, the world is your oyster in China.
> Only you'll know you're rolling on "ricer" wheels!!
> ...


Seriously pal??? Are you comparing this lot to PAWI???

The first five companies listed are were formed after 2010...


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

akasakaR33 said:


> Matt - you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, law-wise, so I can only conclude that you are doing this to piss me off. Which really is pathetic.






akasakaR33 said:


> Like I said, find the link or article, or whatever, that show that Lotus, Ferrari, and Ford are using "copyright law" to sue these kit manufacturers - FYI I searched and could not find it, maybe you are better at internet searches than I am - in which case, I can read it and then intelligently respond to your question. In the absence of that, as you have demonstrated you have no idea what copyright law really is, I cannot intelligently and constructively answer your question.


Aki, it is a legitimate question and the very basic of searches throws up reports...

Could Ferrari Sue Fast And Furious 6 Over A Fake Supercar?

Ford: Ferrari F150 Prompts Ford Lawsuit Over Copyright Infringement | Companies | Business | Epoch Times

Batmobile: The Copyright Rises | DuetsBlog

Caterham Car Sales and Coachworks Ltd. v Birkin Cars (Pty) Ltd. and Another (393/95) [1998] ZASCA 44; 1998 (3) SA 938 (SCA); [1998] 3 All SA 175 (A) (27 May 1998)



akasakaR33 said:


> If you want me to answer according to what you posted, then again, YOU ARE WRONG, and I AM RIGHT, about copyright law. Whether in the UK, US, Japan, or anywhere with a legitimate legal system, copyright would not normally be used to pursue this kind of intellectual property theft, ok? Why is it that you cannot understand my explanation as to the difference between the CONCEPT of copyright law, vs. what the codified law is in the UK? Is this topic beyond comprehension for you?


If that is the case, why do manufacturers pursue copyright infringement as per the threads posted? I'm openly admitting that I do not know the exact law Aki, I'm not stating that I know more about copyright law than you, nor am I making claims that you're 'pissing me off'.

What I am saying is that I have heard of and seen cases where companies have sued (rightly or wrongly) under copyright infringement and therefore merely asked WHY Rays had not done the same with Rota, not a difficult concept to understand, or so I thought.



akasakaR33 said:


> As for VIA - why don't you call them, and ask yourself then. Here is their number - 81-3-5902-3455. Even better, why don't you call ROTA, or one of its distributors who speaks English, and ask them for proof of certification? I would be thrilled to see such proof, really!


I'm not the supercilious one making huge accusations against a company that I cannot uphold with hard evidence.



akasakaR33 said:


> I think I have done a fair job providing enough proof of my position, the onus is now on YOU to prove that ROTA has indeed properly obtained VIA certification.!


Really, with your transcript account of a phone call as your only proof?



akasakaR33 said:


> I am spending my time contributing to this discussion, in order to clarify commonly held misconceptions as well as well as misinformation, so that our friends and fellow car enthusiasts, can make an intelligent, well informed decision when deciding how to spend their well earned money.


Same as everyone else contributing Aki, interested to see your next response...


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

carbonfootprint said:


> I still don't understand why rays don't persue it legally. If its such a blatant case of ip theft then Rota will end up paying all costs anyway.


Your question has already been answered in legal terms by AkasakaR33. Just click back and you'll find it...

Japan is the largest market for RAYS original designs by far.

*The question you should be asking yourself is why Rota and other copy manufacturers don't have any presence selling copies of RAYS wheels at all in Japan?*

The answer should be intuitively obvious, but if you need a hint have a look back at PS-30SB's posts about "Super Dry". 
That's all I'm going to say on the matter now.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> *The question you should be asking yourself is why Rota and other copy manufacturers don't have any presence selling copies of RAYS wheels at all in Japan?*


Perhaps the japanese market is already saturated by wheel manufacturers and there is easier money to be made in the rest of the world. 

Japan is only a tiny sector of the wheel market?


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

matt j said:


> What I am saying is that I have heard of and seen cases where companies have sued (rightly or wrongly) under copyright infringement and therefore merely asked WHY Rays had not done the same with Rota, not a difficult concept to understand, or so I thought.


The _simple_ answer ( although it's always more complicated than that ) is the same reason that Asahi are not pursuing Superdry _outside Japan_ over the 'Superdry' / 'Super Dry' issue....

If Rays were to bring legal action against ROTA / PAWI, _where_ would they do it? PAWI are based in the Philippines, and it would cost huge sums for a Japanese company to undertake legal action there with absolutely no guarantee of success ( and all the inferences of corruption and bias that go with that... ). No point RAYS - or anyone else - taking action against ROTA / PAWI in Japan, as they have little or no presence there ( guess why ).

The legal action examples you gave were all - unless I've missed something - cases brought against companies or individuals _within the territories in which they manufactured the goods in question_, and in territories with similar / connected legal systems ( UK, EU, USA, SA etc ). Try that in the Philippines....


----------



## Rubix_Cube (Mar 5, 2006)

My stand point on it is a simple one... going on the link posted on the previous page about Phil Morrison's S15 running GTR-D's... it was involved in a pretty beefy impact to the rear quarter and the wheel was fine:

I tried to post a link but still not enough posts to do so, search "Driftworks S15 and R32 Crash with onboard footage, and rebuild." on YouTube to see the video of the impact and also a picture of the wheel. Or just google Driftworks S15 Crash and you'll find some pics of it.

Fake or not, I happily run Rotas. I don't have a problem with people who run them either. I have a problem with people who run them and claim them as a more expensive brand.


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## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

Pretty sure the legal action can take place where they're sold not made. Don't think apple v Samsung went down in china


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Been looking for some new wheels.. 
Just not sure which ones to choose..

They are all so similar.....



RAYS CE28N




HRSH-286




ROTA Fighter




ROTA Gforce




ROTA Tarmac 3




BGW Scope




BGW Bullet




BGW Balistic




BEYERN Baveria




GRAM LIGHT S57G




BGW Scope




TSW INTERLAGOS




XSA 03C




WORK EMOTION XD9




WORK EMOTION 11R


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Doubled up............


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

carbonfootprint said:


> Pretty sure the legal action can take place where they're sold not made. Don't think apple v Samsung went down in china


OK, imagine this: You're sitting at your desk at Rays Engineering ( or RS Watanabe, Hayashi Racing or wherever ) in Japan, and you've decided to take legal action against PAWI. Where are you going to start? What territory? Against wholesalers? Against distributors? Against retailers? How many lawyers are you going to engage the services of? How many lawyers ( with knowledge of foreign and domestic law and - especially copyright / infringement law ) with both foreign _and_ Japanese language skills? 

Looks like an uphill task to me. Expensive to pursue, with the prospect of losing the war even if you win a few battles on the way. Like weeds, the copyists will pop up tenfold elsewhere and with different names. Better to look after your own brand name, your own territory ( Japan ), look after the quality and integrity of your own product, and let the domestic and international customer decide. That's essentially what companies like Rolex do.

Apple / Samsung was a whole different scale. Not the same thing.


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

PS30-SB said:


> The legal action examples you gave were all - unless I've missed something - cases brought against companies or individuals _within the territories in which they manufactured the goods in question_, and in territories with similar / connected legal systems ( UK, EU, USA, SA etc ). Try that in the Philippines....


I posted several link covering varying scenarios and a couple of them are companies outside their country of manufacture.


----------



## endo (Jul 11, 2007)

PS30-SB said:


> The _simple_ answer ( although it's always more complicated than that ) is the same reason that Asahi are not pursuing Superdry _outside Japan_ over the 'Superdry' / 'Super Dry' issue....


regardless of the "made in japan" fakery of the brand, Superdry can be bought in Japan btw, (why i'll never know since they're not the best quality clothing)

Asahi would have a hard time if they chose to pursue super dry
-both companies are in different industries, if Superdry was to produce a beverage it would be a different matter, similarily if Asahi was to produce Super Dry clothing it would go the other way.
-the spelling, logo, typeface, designs etc are different enough to not cause confusion to the average person

simple example which is closer to home
Newera imports, refered to alot of the time as Newera, and New-Era caps, name is similar but the spelling, logo, and respective industries are different enough that there would a hard time making a court case out of it.

now if Newera were to start making baseball caps i could see them getting into trouble.. but that's not really going to happen is it


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

matt j said:


> I posted several link covering varying scenarios and a couple of them are companies outside their country of manufacture.


Any in countries like China, or the Philippines...?


----------



## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

I'd bet good money you wouldn't slag Rota's off if you could sell them by the bucket loads Miguel.


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

endo said:


> regardless of the "made in japan" fakery of the brand, Superdry can be bought in Japan btw, (why i'll never know since they're not the best quality clothing)


Yes, but not in a 'Superdry' shop ( owned by Super Group plc ). They are imported, wholesaled and retailed in Japan by third party companies. 

Although they are not in the same goods sector, Asahi are going to make sure that their toes don't get trodden on in any way. They are watching the situation very closely, believe me.


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

Trev said:


> I'd bet good money you wouldn't slag Rota's off if you could sell them by the bucket loads Miguel.


he probably could sell them by the bucket loads... if his target market was people that want fake wheels


----------



## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> OK, imagine this: You're sitting at your desk at Rays Engineering ( or RS Watanabe, Hayashi Racing or wherever ) in Japan, and you've decided to take legal action against PAWI. Where are you going to start? What territory? Against wholesalers? Against distributors? Against retailers? How many lawyers are you going to engage the services of? How many lawyers ( with knowledge of foreign and domestic law and - especially copyright / infringement law ) with both foreign _and_ Japanese language skills?
> 
> Looks like an uphill task to me. Expensive to pursue, with the prospect of losing the war even if you win a few battles on the way. Like weeds, the copyists will pop up tenfold elsewhere and with different names. Better to look after your own brand name, your own territory ( Japan ), look after the quality and integrity of your own product, and let the domestic and international customer decide. That's essentially what companies like Rolex do.
> 
> Apple / Samsung was a whole different scale. Not the same thing.


The Rolex situation is different because there are endless people making and selling them as a Rolex. They do everything within reason to police it, destroying any submitted for service etc

Now, as for rays, any reasonably sized company, especially one that relies on quality and image to sell their products at a premium need to address others infringing their IP. It would be quite straight forward to submit notice to rota uk, us and perhaps Australasia stating they need to cease selling xyz wheels as they are confusingly similar to xyz rays wheels. 

It may seem like a lot of work to you but to IP lawyers it's a daily occurrence. 

Ultimately for what ever reason rays choose not to pursue it.

The reasons for this IMO are probably because they appreciate people who buy rays wheels wouldn't buy rotas by mistake.

Put another way, I don't think rays have lost any sales due to rota.


----------



## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> he probably could sell them by the bucket loads... if his target market was people that want fake wheels


Think your getting lost with this FAKE or IMITATION thing.....

Lets get one thing clear - whatever the design is (copied or not) the Rota's are sold to UK standards therefore are safe to use.

End of.


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Trev said:


> I'd bet good money you wouldn't slag Rota's off if you could sell them by the bucket loads Miguel.


I do hope bet BIG, because you'd lose it all. I've already explained why I wouldn't & why I feel so strongly about it. :chuckle:


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

lol ^^


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Trev said:


> Think your getting lost with this FAKE or IMITATION thing.....
> 
> Lets get one thing clear - whatever the design is (copied or not) the Rota's are sold to UK standards therefore are safe to use.
> 
> End of.


Can you tell us all exactly what UK standards are for wheels then? I'd be very interested to know.


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

For added comical dialogue here's a few more funny comments from some of those who have posted here. May as well bring it all into the mix, eh :chuckle:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/177062-permitted-items.html


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

I don't know why anyone continues to even respond to this thread. The OP created it for the sole purpose of stirring the pot and trying to justify their purchase of ROTAs. No amount of factual information is going to change anyones mind. It has been clearly laid out as to why people buy the more expensive wheels. All that is left in this thread that I can see is egos, vendettas, and people that have axes to grind.


The reason you don't see ROTA's in Japan is because Rays, et. al. would take PAWI to court and win easily. They haven't been tested, they don't even meet the Japanese standards set in place. Not only would they see lawsuits from major wheel makers, they would also see lawsuits from JWL+VIA, etc. for the clear use of logo fraud. The Japanese that I work with and associate with haven't even heard of ROTA at all, and when one of them looked it up, the first word they said to me was "fake". Take that as you wish.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> For added comical dialogue here's a few more funny comments from some of those who have posted here. May as well bring it all into the mix, eh :chuckle:
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/177062-permitted-items.html


Well spotted. :thumbsup:

It's a shame it got moved, it's original location was comical.


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

yodookie said:


> The reason you don't see ROTA's in Japan is because Rays, et. al. would take PAWI to court and win easily. They haven't been tested, they don't even meet the Japanese standards set in place. Not only would they see lawsuits from major wheel makers, they would also see lawsuits from JWL+VIA, etc. for the clear use of logo fraud. The Japanese that I work with and associate with haven't even heard of ROTA at all, and when one of them looked it up, the first word they said to me was "fake". Take that as you wish.


I'll happily concede my points if you can post hard evidence to back up such accusations.


----------



## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

yodookie said:


> I don't know why anyone continues to even respond to this thread. The OP created it for the sole purpose of stirring the pot and trying to justify their purchase of ROTAs. No amount of factual information is going to change anyones mind. It has been clearly laid out as to why people buy the more expensive wheels. All that is left in this thread that I can see is egos, vendettas, and people that have axes to grind.
> 
> 
> The reason you don't see ROTA's in Japan is because Rays, et. al. would take PAWI to court and win easily. They haven't been tested, they don't even meet the Japanese standards set in place. Not only would they see lawsuits from major wheel makers, they would also see lawsuits from JWL+VIA, etc. for the clear use of logo fraud. The Japanese that I work with and associate with haven't even heard of ROTA at all, and when one of them looked it up, the first word they said to me was "fake". Take that as you wish.


Get your facts right, I can afford rays maybe if your read my posts then you would understand that, (roll eyes) if you don't wanna take part in this discussion why don't you go some where else quite simple really, your the type of person that spoils forums like this


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Well spotted. :thumbsup:
> 
> It's a shame it got moved, it's original location was comical.


Yeah, you're a bunch of funny guys.. :chuckle:


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Yeah, you're a bunch of funny guys.. :chuckle:


If you can't laugh, what can you do?!?


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

knighty84 said:


> Get your facts right, I can afford rays maybe if your read my posts then you would understand that, (roll eyes) if you don't wanna take part in this discussion why don't you go some where else quite simple really, your the type of person that spoils forums like this


That's your perspective which I see as unfair. We're having an adult conversation here are we not?
Actually, as someone with a perspective from both sides of the pond and involved for the last 15 years in this business I found his post quite well considered as far as what the likely scenario would be in Japan. 

With Rota having supposedly been in business 30 years (Never mind they didn't actually come onto the scene until quite a long time afterwards) are you still really unsure of why they've never sold RAYS copy wheels in Japan and never will?


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> If you can't laugh, what can you do?!?


touche'! 

It's also kinda funny how when there's a poignant post that cannot easily be argued against you funny guys seem to run away, hide behind the curtains and are nowhere to be seen! :clap:


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Hey R32 Combat. I have a question for you:

If someone bought your http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/175702-skylab-fusion-e-ts-controller.html, then changed a few inconsequential components, had the box & look of the unit a little different made in large numbers, then sold it at 30% of the price how would you feel about it? 
Would you be in the least bit upset that your hard work was stolen, or would you not?


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> The reason you don't see ROTA's in Japan is because Rays, et. al. would take PAWI to court and win easily. They haven't been tested, they don't even meet the Japanese standards set in place. Not only would they see lawsuits from major wheel makers, they would also see lawsuits from JWL+VIA, etc. for the clear use of logo fraud. The Japanese that I work with and associate with haven't even heard of ROTA at all, and when one of them looked it up, the first word they said to me was "fake". Take that as you wish.


really???!!!???? do you think Rota will bother selling their items in japan and compete with Rays, et al. market and cost wise? if i live in Japan, why should i bother importing ROTA from Philippines and pay freight cost and taxes if i can get better Rays, et al. locally/nationally without paying extras? youve got a very good marketing and legal analysis :thumbsup: you dont need a degree to know this :chairshot

this fraud JWL+VIA -allegation about ROTA..... is there a hard evidence to prove this? have you spoken to PAWI about this and ask why they are, according to some people here, put that JWL+VIA mark on their wheels? i dont think just by phone conversation will lead to conclusion. no court will agree on this im sure. this is a big allegation.

"fake"?? did PAWI say ROTA is RAYS, et al.? did they say the are made from japan and being run by RAYS, eta al? or did PAWI put a mark RAYS or made by RAYS on their wheels? did they say they are the same products? did PAWI say they tied-up with RAYS, et al. hence ROTA and RAYS are the same?

PAWI is a duly registered company with the PHILIPPINE SECURITIES EXCHANGE COMMISSION and existing under the LAW OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES. how come they are fake?

copying designs... maybe.... this happens everywhere. i.e. UGG Boots vs. PRIMARK Boots in very similar design. is Primark boots fake?? they did not say their boots is made by UGG, did they?

for whatever reason why RAYS, et al. not pursuing case against PAWI.....i dont know... cost wise? dont think so.... RAYS is a big company, and therefore can afford to pay such amount just to stop PAWI from "faking" their products. 

BTW, there is an IPO in the philippines. RAYS, et al. can file a suit anytime for copyright. you live in japan, maybe you can ask them and put it onto writing why they are not chasing PAWI for arguments' sake.

i run and love RAYS though, but nothing against ROTA. used both of them, no issues.

ive been following this thread from the beginning and i hate to join as some people dont understand what is "fake".

thank you


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Import duty on Wheels from Asia into Japan would be just consumption tax. 5%. 
UK is 10% + VAT. 
So bearing in mind the FOB costs of a 40ft container and that the shipping costs are lower due to shorter freight distance, the wheels would still be a lot cheaper in Japan than in the UK. So your logic's not correct there I'm afraid - nightcrawler.

Who don't you get some hard evidence from ROTA / PAWI on the contrary of what's been said?


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

endo said:


> regardless of the "made in japan" fakery of the brand, Superdry can be bought in Japan btw, (why i'll never know since they're not the best quality clothing)
> 
> Asahi would have a hard time if they chose to pursue super dry
> -both companies are in different industries, if Superdry was to produce a beverage it would be a different matter, similarily if Asahi was to produce Super Dry clothing it would go the other way.
> ...



This is the most accurate legal-related post I've seen all day. That is correct, with trade NAMES, most jurisdictions allow similar or identical names, so long as the product is in different categories - i.e. the whole idea is to prevent CONSUMER confusion as to which product is the genuine item or not. Therefore, on the basis of the same name alone, it would be difficult to bring suit.

TradeMARKS and TradeDress, these will be distinct to the company that first registers them, as it becomes a brand identity.

Ironically, we are not debating trademark between ROTA and RAYS (because as several have pointed out, ROTA isn't stupid enough to mark their wheels with the RAYS logo) even though most likely ROTA has usurped the VIA trademark. 

The intellectual property debate is whether or not, by copying RAYS designs to include cosmetic dimples in some cases, whether that constitutes intellectual property theft, and therefore, to some people, the wheels are "fake."


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Hey R32 Combat. I have a question for you:
> 
> If someone bought your http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/175702-skylab-fusion-e-ts-controller.html, then changed a few inconsequential components, had the box & look of the unit a little different made in large numbers, then sold it at 30% of the price how would you feel about it?
> Would you be in the least bit upset that your hard work was stolen, or would you not?


I'd be about as cheesed off as you would be is someone mass producing GTR N1 bumper ducts.:chuckle:

There are a number of ET-S controllers on the market, they all have their benifits. I'm happy for the customer to decide which one they want.

My concern is that people need to know exactly what they are buying and have all the information they need to make the right choice. I've turned away a few customers because after discussing with them their requirements, it's become apparent that my product does not best siut their needs and I've recommended something else.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> I'd be about as cheesed off as you would be is someone mass producing GTR N1 bumper ducts.:chuckle:
> 
> There are a number of ET-S controllers on the market, they all have their benifits. I'm happy for the customer to decide which one they want.
> 
> My concern is that people need to know exactly what they are buying and have all the information they need to make the right choice. I've turned away a few customers because after discussing with them their requirements, it's become apparent that my product does not best siut their needs and I've recommended something else.


So you couldn't care less if someone stole your hard work, in other words? :chuckle: - I think in reality, you'd think quite differently as anybody would when having something stolen from them - but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt.


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## Rubix_Cube (Mar 5, 2006)

Miguel, he said there are already similar controllers on the market so whether they are copies of his or similar by design (only so many ways to skin a cat). He can't change that, he can only offer better customer service to show that his product is more expensive because of the support less than the product.

Its like any mass produced goods. You can buy cheap by a no name place and when it breaks your kinda screwed, or you buy from a known company with good rep who are more expensive.

Take the importing world you know so well, there are plenty of no name importing companies, less these days than say 5-10 years ago, companies like Newera, HJA and JM Imports have higher prices for similar cars than others, why do people still use you, the service and the security it brings.


Going back to wheels, I bought my Rota's simply because Rare Rims have fantastic service and the wheels were the sizes I wanted. (relating to offeset and width combination).


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> So you couldn't care less if someone stole your hard work, in other words? :chuckle: - I think in reality, you'd think quite differently as anybody would when having something stolen from them - but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt.


Rota have not _stolen_ anything, like you or I haven't. 

Competition is the best thing for business, competition the best thing for the customer. Customers get the best value, business is run at optimum efficiency. 

There is no point crying about it, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.:runaway:


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

endo said:


> Asahi would have a hard time if they chose to pursue super dry
> -both companies are in different industries, if Superdry was to produce a beverage it would be a different matter, similarily if Asahi was to produce Super Dry clothing it would go the other way.
> -the spelling, logo, typeface, designs etc are different enough to not cause confusion to the average person


I take your point ( obviously ), but the fact is that Asahi Breweries have _already_ taken legal steps to make sure that there is no confusion between their Asahi 'Super Dry' branding and the Super Group plc 'Superdry' branding in Japan.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Import duty on Wheels from Asia into Japan would be just consumption tax. 5%.
> UK is 10% + VAT.
> So bearing in mind the FOB costs of a 40ft container and that the shipping costs are lower due to shorter freight distance, the wheels would still be a lot cheaper in Japan than in the UK. So your logic's not correct there I'm afraid - nightcrawler.
> 
> Who don't you get some hard evidence from ROTA / PAWI on the contrary of what's been said?



i did not mention uk miguel. i was referring to philippines to japan which you are saying 5%. 5% is still an amount of money and i wont pay for that if i can source rays without paying other charges and smaller cost of freight. so why should i import an item from philippines and pay 5% consumption tax? considering Rays is a top brand?

ill ask you this... if you are in japan, which i assume you are, would you buy a PRIMARK shirt and pay taxes and freight rather than buy a SUPERDRY SHIRT nationally?

haha hard evidence from rota/pawi? why dont you get hard evidence on your claims yourself from japan first? i did not make the claim about JWL-VIA in the first place? your allegation-your evidence buddy. you have the advantage, you live there opcorn:

thank you


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Matt,

OK - thank you very much for finally posting these links. We can now have an informed discussion.

For those of you who have not actually read the articles linked, I will summarize the salient legal points, and you can all draw your own conclusion.



matt j said:


> Could Ferrari Sue Fast And Furious 6 Over A Fake Supercar?


Yeah, interesting article! But no mention of copyright (or for that matter, trademarks). It DID however mention that Ferrari tends to force anyone who displays a fake Ferrari to remove all logos and badges that identify the car as a Ferrari. 

So this sadly is irrelevant to our discussion, because ROTA again is smart enough to NOT put anything RAYS associated on their copy wheels.



matt j said:


> Ford: Ferrari F150 Prompts Ford Lawsuit Over Copyright Infringement | Companies | Business | Epoch Times


well, I will admit this author of this article mixes the concepts of copyright and trademark. Goes to show that this may be difficult to understand for those without legal training. Perhaps this is what confused you too, Matt.

I researched a bit more, and found the actual legal complaint filed in US federal court:
Ford v Ferrari - Complaint

You want to know exactly what Ford sued Ferrari for? It was:
"federal trademark dilution, federal trademark infringement, false designation of origin or sponsorship, and cyberpiracy" See page 4 of the complaint if you'd like to verify.



matt j said:


> Batmobile: The Copyright Rises | DuetsBlog


Warner Brothers (which owns DC Comics) sued the replica maker not just under copyright law, but also under trademark law. If you read this article, DC's argument is that copyright protection applies because the Batmobile was a "distinctive character." Since when did a wheel become a "distinctive character"?

The kit car manufacturer claims that this is ludicrous, because:

"It is black letter law that useful articles, such as automobiles, do not qualify as 'sculptural works' and are thus not eligible for copyright protection. However, despite this clear, bright line standard, DC believes that there is an exception to this rule. The exception being that if a different version of the vehicle (not even the same version that Defendant sells) once appeared in a comic book, then the rule does not apply. The implications of a ruling upholding this standard are easy to imagine. Ford, Toyota, Ferrari and Honda would start publishing comic books, so that they could protect what, up until now, was unprotectable."

Remember what I wrote earlier about copyright law? How it protects works of authorship and artistic expression?

Here is a link to a better, more thorough article that explains the entire lawsuit, and it also contains links to the actual legal pleadings, if you are so inclined.
Warner Bros. Vs. Custom Batmobiles: The Legal Battle Continues

As for the original link you supplied - this is a law blog, and no doubt this was written up precisely because suing on a copyright theory for a replica is, so unheard of.



matt j said:


> Caterham Car Sales and Coachworks Ltd. v Birkin Cars (Pty) Ltd. and Another (393/95) [1998] ZASCA 44; 1998 (3) SA 938 (SCA); [1998] 3 All SA 175 (A) (27 May 1998)


Now this was an interesting case. Actually, this was an APPEAL brought to the Supreme Court of Appeal of South Africa by Caterham. Caterham DID sue Birkin in the trial court, for copyright infringement. It lost, because, as the Supreme Court noted, they sued for infringement of copyright "knowing full well they had no such rights."

The court then allowed the Appeal to be heard using a different theories of law - "goodwill" and "passing-off." I'll spare the analysis, but for various reasons Caterham still lost - and this demonstrates that often, even when the copying is obvious, it can be hard to win legal cases, and that certainly, claiming copyright infringement is NOT the proper legal theory.



matt j said:


> If that is the case, why do manufacturers pursue copyright infringement as per the threads posted? I'm openly admitting that I do not know the exact law Aki, I'm not stating that I know more about copyright law than you, nor am I making claims that you're 'pissing me off'.
> 
> What I am saying is that I have heard of and seen cases where companies have sued (rightly or wrongly) under copyright infringement and therefore merely asked WHY Rays had not done the same with Rota, not a difficult concept to understand, or so I thought.


See above explanation of each linked article, as to why you may have gotten confused.

Granted some of these articles are not clearly written, but you could have done your own research to realize that I was right, instead of throwing it back in my face to make me prove my point. 

As for why RAYS hasn't, I have explained to everyone the reality of what has to be done and how it probably doesn't make sense financially for RAYS. But you know what, next time I get the chance, JUST FOR YOU I will ASK them why they have not.



matt j said:


> I'm not the supercilious one making huge accusations against a company that I cannot uphold with hard evidence.
> 
> Really, with your transcript account of a phone call as your only proof?


Well you are free to believe whatever you want. I have no reason to lie, because if you think logically about this, obtaining VIA certification for wheels that are NOT sold in Japan make no sense to begin with (read the link I posted as to why, if you have not already). My conversation with JWTC simply verified the obvious conclusion, that ROTA had not obtained the VIA cert at all.

And even if ROTA had actually gone and obtained the VIA cert, it still would not take away from the MAIN argument that ROTAs are copies of RAYS and therefore constitute intellectual property infringement.

Now - what else would you like to discuss? Please ensure that it's not a question that has already been asked, and answered.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

nightcrawler said:


> i did not mention uk miguel. i was referring to philippines to japan which you are saying 5%. 5% is still an amount of money and i wont pay for that if i can source rays without paying other charges and smaller cost of freight. so why should i import an item from philippines and pay 5% consumption tax? considering Rays is a top brand?
> 
> ill ask you this... if you are in japan, which i assume you are, would you buy a PRIMARK shirt and pay taxes and freight rather than buy a SUPERDRY SHIRT nationally?
> 
> ...


Your argument about relative costs being the reason why nobody imports Rota to Japan is quite ridiculous because even with paying shipping and takes the cost difference would still be very high. Rotas would have cost you 20% roughly of the trade cost of Volks assuming they're bought wholesale in the Philippines. 
I brought up UK because it's relatively more expensive to import there and it seems a viable market for Rota. So relative cost is not the reason Rota is not sold in Japan. If the reason you give were the only barrier, there would be lots of brands from all over Asia selling copies of RAYS wheel designs. There are NONE.

Aki made a phone call and recorded the dialogue in writing (As well as translating it for your benefit). At least accept this as fact. This is not a court of law, it's a forum thread. If you don't believe him, why don't you ask Rarerims.co.uk for certification that the JWL / VIA markings on their wheels are indeed genuine? After all, you are in the UK! 

I agree we're never going to come to a conclusion here, but to deny what's been checked by Aki as a factual is plain stupidity. Are you suggesting he made it up? *Rota IS NOT JWL / VIA approved. *

The markings on Rota wheels with regard to Japanese safety standards are 100% fake.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> There is no point crying about it, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.:runaway:


LOL. all this time I thought it was just a bit hot air coming from you. :chuckle:


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> LOL. all this time I thought it was just a bit hot air coming from you. :chuckle:


I need all the hot air I can get, my jockey wheel has just failed on my tumble dryer.:bawling:


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Your argument about relative costs being the reason why nobody imports Rota to Japan is quite ridiculous because even with paying shipping and takes the cost difference would still be very high. Rotas would have cost you 20% roughly of the trade cost of Volks assuming they're bought wholesale in the Philippines.
> I brought up UK because it's relatively more expensive to import there and it seems a viable market for Rota. So relative cost is not the reason Rota is not sold in Japan. If the reason you give were the only barrier, there would be lots of brands from all over Asia selling copies of RAYS wheel designs. There are NONE.
> 
> Aki made a phone call and recorded the dialogue in writing (As well as translating it for your benefit). At least accept this as fact. This is not a court of law, it's a forum thread. If you don't believe him, why don't you ask Rarerims.co.uk for certification that the JWL / VIA markings on their wheels are indeed genuine? After all, you are in the UK!
> ...


so whats the price for a new set of rays ce28 in japan vs. rota fighter from philippines to japan?

i was aiming at yodooki's reasoning about rota doesnt want to trade in japan due to easy win against them by rays, et al. why dont you say something about that? you seem know how the market goes in japan as you are in japan anyway =)

of course we are not in court... otherwise this will be the "GTR CROWN COURT" lol

indont have nothing to prove sir miguel, with all due respect. i didnt brought the issue about jwl-via, hence why should i ask for such proof? again... your claim - your evidence... 

i didnt say that Aki is lying.. dont make things more complicated pls. this topic is just going circles.

(unsubscribed)


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

akasakaR33 said:


> OK - thank you very much for finally posting these links. We can now have an informed discussion.


Informed discussion is fine, it’s what helps the community isn’t it? 



akasakaR33 said:


> Now this was an interesting case. Actually, this was an APPEAL brought to the Supreme Court of Appeal of South Africa by Caterham. Caterham DID sue Birkin in the trial court, for copyright infringement. It lost, because, as the Supreme Court noted, they sued for infringement of copyright "knowing full well they had no such rights."
> 
> The court then allowed the Appeal to be heard using a different theories of law - "goodwill" and "passing-off." I'll spare the analysis, but for various reasons Caterham still lost - and this demonstrates that often, even when the copying is obvious, it can be hard to win legal cases, and that certainly, claiming copyright infringement is NOT the proper legal theory.


Ok Aki, I admit and apologise (as I said I would) for my confusion with copyright, trademarks, design rights and patents under intellectual property rights; however I still answered the question and provided the evidence of a company suing a kit car company under copyright infringement as mentioned previously, irrespective of outcome. There have been other cases with Lotus/Caterham/Ferrari/Lambourghini but I haven’t got the time to read through them all offshore but needless to say that if the lawyers of such large companies felt it worthwhile to pursue then there has to be a reason for it from a cost benefit analysis.



akasakaR33 said:


> As for why RAYS hasn't, I have explained to everyone the reality of what has to be done and how it probably doesn't make sense financially for RAYS. But you know what, next time I get the chance, JUST FOR YOU I will ASK them why they have not.


Thanks, I’d appreciate that, I’d be interested to know whether they actually feel that they could win such a claim of fake ‘fraudulent copies’ given the only factor being the wheels look similar, when in fact they are branded differently, differ in colour, differ in size, differ in manufacture, differ in material spec etc etc; would they sue on the grounds ‘it looks similar’? 



akasakaR33 said:


> Well you are free to believe whatever you want. I have no reason to lie, because if you think logically about this, obtaining VIA certification for wheels that are NOT sold in Japan make no sense to begin with (read the link I posted as to why, if you have not already). My conversation with JWTC simply verified the obvious conclusion, that ROTA had not obtained the VIA cert at all.


AND the ISO accreditation, did they fraudulently claim that too?



akasakaR33 said:


> And even if ROTA had actually gone and obtained the VIA cert, it still would not take away from the MAIN argument that ROTAs are copies of RAYS and therefore constitute intellectual property infringement.


I think they’d have a very difficult time proving that Rota wheels as copies and I think that is why they haven’t considered legal action, there are too many differences to constitute infringement IMHO of course.



akasakaR33 said:


> Now - what else would you like to discuss? Please ensure that it's not a question that has already been asked, and answered.


How many physical differences does it take for an item not to be considered a copy legally?


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Well glad your laughing, pretty sure I'd be talking to my legal team regarding slander, deformation of character etc if I were Rota reading this thread and it's comments by affiliated "TRADERS".


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Rota don't need to, they sell a good product, to cost, time and a global customer base, and they there is Rays....


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> Rota don't need to, they sell a good product, to *cost*, time and a global customer base, and they there is Rays....


So here's another scenario then. Rota's are obviously much cheaper than Rays so it's safe to assume that a Rota buyer was never going to be a Rays customer. That being the case, Rota wheels haven't actually impacted on sales of Rays products so can't really be seen as a competitor. The fact that the design has been 'borrowed' isn't really the issue but the cost/value differential.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

TAZZMAXX said:


> So here's another scenario then. Rota's are obviously much cheaper than Rays so it's safe to assume that a Rota buyer was never going to be a Rays customer. That being the case, Rota wheels haven't actually impacted on sales of Rays products so can't really be seen as a competitor. The fact that the design has been 'borrowed' isn't really the issue but the cost/value differential.


Yeh, pretty much.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

matt j said:


> I'll happily concede my points if you can post hard evidence to back up such accusations.



I will happily redact my point if you can post evidence that ROTAs have been tested and passed any japanese standard that they supposedly have since they have the marks on the wheels.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

knighty84 said:


> Get your facts right, I can afford rays maybe if your read my posts then you would understand that, (roll eyes) if you don't wanna take part in this discussion why don't you go some where else quite simple really, your the type of person that spoils forums like this



Nowhere did I say you couldn't buy Rays.

However, this thread is all about you having others justify your purchase of cheaper wheels.


I'm such a bad person, ruining forums and all.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Words takes from here:-

*Read here*


_We use the most ridgid testing methods in the industry

PAWI manufactures Rota wheels in accordance with high international standards to which we are committed. We utilize some of the most sophisticated and modern testing carried out by major wheel manufacturers to ensure the quality and durability of our product.


Composition Test

To make sure all chemical elements are within the standard level or composition percentage. This is done through a special machine called the Spectrometer.

Vacuum Test

To make sure the gas content of the melt is kept to a minimum, if not zero, and will not cause "gassiness" or "pinhole effect" on the cast surface.


Impact Testing

To make sure a wheel can withstand tremendous loads and stain, three torture tests are carried out. Varying loads are dropped from different heights and angles of 13, 30, and 90 degrees.

Cornering Fatigue Test

This tests the bolt hole's ability to withstand tremendous pressure. To pass, a wheel must successfully go through 100,000 rotating cycles at a given kilogram force based on international testing standards.

Drum Test

With the tire mounted, the wheel is run through one million cycles, a test that simulates a non-stop long-distance drive on the road.

Coordinating Test

Are the dimensions exactly same? Are the concentricity and the roundness of the bolt holes correct? These are determined by coordinate testing, using precision instruments._


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Maybe here?

*Maybe read this?*


_Manufacturing Process


The making of world-class quality wheels

PAWI manufactures Rota wheels in accordance with high international standards to which we are committed. From design to casting, from machining to testing... every step of the way is a process of precision and thoroughness, backed by state-of-the-art technology.

Step one - A continuing research and development program

PAWI ensures that it is abreast with the latest trends and technologies by sending key personnel on specialized trainings and seminars geared toward productivity and quality improvement. In addition, PAWI designers are equipped with a comprehensive and sophisticated design validation software which uses a wide range of analysis capabilities such as nonlinear, dynamics and composites to assure its customers the best of both worlds; that is by striking a balance between good looks and road performance.

Step two - Product designs in tune with world trends and ever-changing motorists' preferences

By regularly participating in international automotive exhibits such as the SEMA show in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA and the Automechanika show in Frankfurt, Germany plus some top local exhibits, PAWI gets a feel of the latest international and local trends including the best selling wheel designs and accessories. From these inputs, our design team is able to come up with totally new or modified, mixed and matched concept designs from which the selection process begins.This complements the painstaking yet worthwhile design reviews to ensure that the every detail is covered.


Step three - Superb casting at its best

From the delivery of the pure aluminum virgin ingots up to the casting and heat teratment processes, Rota wheels are subjected to top-of the-line quality checking to ensure that only good castings are churned out. Starting with the chemical analysis test to ensure that only the prescribed A356.2 aluminum alloy are being poured into the moulds, the casted wheels then undergo x-ray inspection, vacuum test and finally heat treatment to ensure that the required molecular grain structure and hardness ratings are obtained.

Step four - A finshing process as thorough as anything you've seen

Our machining process uses the latest Computer-Numerically Controlled (CNC) horizontal and vertical lathe machines which are programmed to perform cutting operations hence providing accurate dimensions that are within the standard tolerances. A Coordinate Measuring Machine (CMM) is used to validate the CNC machines' output by generating a more precise measurement of up to three decimal places. The finishing painting process in turn features an automatic metal treatment preparation using several degreasing, pickling, chromating and multi-rinse zones and a conveyorized electrostatic painting system that produces a classy, impeccable paint job.


Step five - A tough and uncompromising inspection system from start to finish

To ensure quality is always at its best, each critical process is checked starting from the delivery of the virgin aluminum ingots up to the packaging process. At the penultimate process which is the final inspection, each wheel is meticulously checked for any paint or metal abnormalities then functionally checked for the correlation between the lug holes and the center bore. Finally, fitment checking is done on all wheel accessories that go with it.

Step six - The most rigid and exacting testing methods

To validate the road worthiness of all ROTA wheels, they are subjected to batch destructive testings which simulates actual driving and road hazard conditions such as impact 13, 30 and 90 degree testings and the dynamic cornering and dynamic radial fatigue test machines. For its paint performance testings, wheels are subjected to color matching, corrosion, adhesion, hardness, water/solvent/gasoline/brake fluid resistance, heat resistance and impact testings to ensure optimum paint quality that is guaranteed to last way beyond its warranty period._


----------



## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

So none of you wear branded clothes or trainers then, just the primark version?


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Primark *IS* a brand.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

tonigmr2 said:


> So none of you wear branded clothes or trainers then, just the primark version?


Don't joke about it! I did actually get mistaken for a gypsy once so what does that tell you about my dress code?


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

nightcrawler said:


> really???!!!???? do you think Rota will bother selling their items in japan and compete with Rays, et al. market and cost wise? if i live in Japan, why should i bother importing ROTA from Philippines and pay freight cost and taxes if i can get better Rays, et al. locally/nationally without paying extras? youve got a very good marketing and legal analysis :thumbsup: you dont need a degree to know this :chairshot



Rays and other big wheel brands are still expensive in Japan. You can freely check out Yahoo Japan auctions or other sites to verify that. 


There is a large market here for wheels. Many people in Japan have at least two sets of wheels+tires, or at the least they switch to winter tires at the appropriate times of the year(by law they have to-- If you get in an accident in the winter time without winter tires you are automatically at fault).


Since the wheels have the (fake) VIA and JWL markings, it should be easy for ROTA to sell their wheels here right? You don't see that happening though. They have a market, plenty of manufacturing capability to supply the market with their wheels, what do you suppose is stopping them from entering this market?


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Don't joke about it! I did actually get mistaken for a gypsy once so what does that tell you about my dress code?


Class


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Trev said:


> Well glad your laughing, pretty sure I'd be talking to my legal team regarding slander, deformation of character etc if I were Rota reading this thread and it's comments by affiliated "TRADERS".


Ah, so the cat comes out of YOUR bag!!! 

So just where is the slander I have allegedly said?

I suggest you get some proof that Rota doesn't have fake VIA & JWL markings. You simply won't attempt to because (a). If you have any sense you already know this is the truth. (b). You don't want to put in the time to do the right thing and help give truthful posts here.



Trev said:


> Think your getting lost with this FAKE or IMITATION thing.....
> 
> Lets get one thing clear - whatever the design is (copied or not) the Rota's are sold to UK standards therefore are safe to use.
> 
> End of.


*I see you've conveniently not answered my question. Come on, since you claim there are UK standards, I'd like to see them. *


Try to respect the efforts people have put in to show the truth here. If your opinion is different, that's each individual's choice. But at the very least we're discussing what is fact & what is not. To lie is not the way forward.

As for quotes from Rota's website, you Rota loving guys really are ignoring the glaringly obvious. You know the markings on the wheel are FAKE, they're a lie essentially, then you go quoting sales blurb from the website of the very company that has a lie on each and every copy wheel they produce. As some have said, if they lie about something like this, what else are they lying about?

It's refreshing to see that there are people who do dislike seeing fake markings and will avoid companies that are clearly fraudulent but shocking to see there are people who choose to ignore it....


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

yodookie said:


> Rays and other big wheel brands are still expensive in Japan. You can freely check out Yahoo Japan auctions or other sites to verify that.
> 
> There is a large market here for wheels. Many people in Japan have at least two sets of wheels+tires, or at the least they switch to winter tires at the appropriate times of the year(by law they have to-- If you get in an accident in the winter time without winter tires you are automatically at fault).
> 
> ?


The last time I checked, there were over 5 million wheel & snow tire sales a year in Japan per winter season. This was the market the investors who I was working with were looking at. Not a small market at all & although not necessarily directly linked, the figure is close to the number of passenger cars sold in Japan each year.


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## Addicted2Boost (Nov 15, 2007)

WOOOOOWW, what a long thread on what should have been such a simple discussion! Reading near every single page, it was interesting how this has all developed! Seems to be alot of emotions/feelings behind all this thats really the driver of this into an overly long discussion. 

We all agree and know that forged rims are stronger and lighter. Done. So, its simple economics at play here, whats the demand at a particular price point? We all want the best product for the lowest cost possible and its a balancing act. I for one could not justify spending near $7000NZD on a set of rims (near 1/5th the cost of my R34 GTR). So on my first GTR I kept the original R34 rims being forged, light and from BBS etc. For other mods that i ended up with to produce 310kw @ hubs i did selected various top brands... simply because they were proven. 

After selling my GTR, i missed the car so much i bought myself another also near stock. Again the same dilemma when it came to rims, (or other huge price variance stuff with small variance/questionable benefit like intercooler piping, oil cooler amongst brands) its a hard choice. In the end everyone needs to justify the price point and go from there. For me and alot of you out there, spending 1/5th of a R34 cannot be justified. 

In short i ended up with Varrstoen TE37 copies. I for one am really fussy about parts and research every thing i can to make sure the hard earned $$ is going to the best parts available etc... and also wondered how they could get away with making such similar designs, (Side point: more i look at it, cant pin point it, but they do look 'different' to VOLK TE37s... maybe these slight differences is why they are able to produce them) My 2nd R34 actually came with Advan RGs (which are cast and not forged) and when deciding to buy new rims as all 4 tires needed replacing, i was also scared of all those failures which I know see as 'myth' on buying replica rims and saying that they were such bad quality leading to failures all the time etc... 

As usual, i did my research on its weight, and also stumbled across extensive testing that some have done, enduring it to track days with full slicks and examining for fractures, stresses etc... at every step of the way... and armed with that information, i purchased the Varrestoen rims. For me, being more logical rather than emotional in my thought process, again it was hard to justify the extreme price difference. I could live with twice the cost, but not 3-4 times. 

I for one also hate those scare tatics and those that look down on others for the rim choice. Information is power, and in this case it was the right choice. Id like to make it clear that I KNOW that RAYS design/manufactoring process of forging results in a better product, but for its cost it simply didnt make sense. 10% or less benefit in spending 3-4 times the price? And RAYS/VOLK shouldnt have to worry about losing market share, as I was never going to be their customer anyway at that price point. 

There was a special last 1 set in stock on a set of CE28n for about 2400USD (half price?), which i was sooo close to buy to replace my current Varrestoen, but found the lip was slightly smaller at 9.5s vs 10.5s and knew this would annoy me and decided against it in the end... i am still on the lookout for them and again would purchase them at these prices without question. 

As mentioned the TE37 copies by Varrestoen are lighter compared to even the expensive WORK meisters, and not bad rim at all when compared to other cast rims. And like the Advan RGs they seem to have hollowed out the spokes in the rim to save weight aswell... and comparing to big name japanese brand like WORKS, a similar cast rim like the WORKS XD9, the varrestoen were almost the same or even lighter! 

As most of you agree, as a consumer, its about getting as much information as you can on a product then making the decision... price vs benefit which is a massive factor. In the case of wheels, because of this massive price difference, is why this is such a massive topic as everyone has a different view on that. And is not as easy as a turbo choice or other performance part, as even tho half the price, not many of us would choose say MASTERPOWER cheap chinese turbos over Garrett etc, because its an easy choice. You see the real results etc. As for wheels, it isnt as clear. Its lighter, yes and saves quite a bit of unsprung weight, but will spending 3-4 times as much justified? When that could be used elsewhere? Its stronger, but considering theres alot of information out there with some serious cars using these rims with good results, again how much benefit is spending 3-4 times the amount when something like Varrestoen or ROTAs are up to the job. (I for one havnt looked into ROTAs at all as i have heard bad things about them and never investigated it etc... but as posted before, that was a good read. Question on Durability of ROTA Wheels? | CustomPinoyRides.com - Pinoy Pride In Our Rides!


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Ah, so the cat comes out of YOUR bag!!!
> 
> So just where is the slander I have allegedly said?
> 
> ...


Think you need a lie down!

I never said YOU had slandered Rota - I said that IMHO there is a fair few slanderous things said on this thread, although your apparent hatred towards Rota is more than suspicious.

Lying? Where have I lied?????

I know you live in Japan but are you being a little bit ignorant to UK laws? If these wheels were like the cheap knock offs your comparing them to, how do you explain how they pass laws for road safety?

Anyway, I've said my bit and won't comment anymore as I really can't be bothered to get into an argument with you Miguel.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

Everyone keeps saying Rota are tested to UK standards, yet as far as I can see no one has proved where the wheels were tested and who does the testing and what it consists of. 

I'll retract my statement but they've lied about the Japanese testing standard so I'm pretty sure they wouldn't hesitate in lying about saying they're tested in the UK.


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## EvilChap (Jan 3, 2008)

I have sent nightcrawler some info which hopefully will clear some things up for some people who appear to have too much time on their hands 

There is no UK standard for wheels, or indeed requirement, which from a Rota perspective is bad, as it means all the cheap knock-off copy and replica wheels can come through unchecked with impunity.

Rota wheels are all fully tested, and if a purchaser requires the certificates, for example to get their car TUV tested in Germany / Austria / Switzerland this is something that is done on a regular basis


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

EvilChap said:


> I have sent nightcrawler some info which hopefully will clear some things up for some people who appear to have too much time on their hands
> 
> There is no UK standard for wheels, or indeed requirement, which from a Rota perspective is bad, as it means all the cheap knock-off copy and replica wheels can come through unchecked with impunity.
> 
> Rota wheels are all fully tested, and if a purchaser requires the certificates, for example to get their car TUV tested in Germany / Austria / Switzerland this is something that is done on a regular basis



i will ben. thank you

give me few minutes and i will upload it =))


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

*miguel-newera, akasakar33, rota haters, et al*

hi to all forum members especially to all who followed this thread from the very beginning.

I emailed ROTA PHILIPPINES about this immature allegations as I can not bare the accusations and misleading information circling around against the "FAKE"-branded ROTA WHEELS MANUFACTURER - PAWI

pls read and read carefully.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 2:06 AM
Subject: Rotawheels.com Web Inquiry
To: [email protected]


Name: ron xxxxx
E-mail address: [email protected]
Contact number: united kingdom
Contact number: +xxxxxxxxx246
Message: sirs

im a forum member of the gtr forum here in the uk. there is a big debate going on about the genuineness of your product. the big issue being is about the JWA and VIA stampings on your wheels which deem not recognised by JWA and VIA therefore ROTA is FAKE and deceiving.

can you clarify he authenticity of your stamps pls.

pls email me your response and or any relevant certificate about JWA and VIA if you can. i will try to speak to rarerims.co.uk about the issue as well. alternatively you can clarify it yourself by joining the forum.

here is the link on the thread for your reference.
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/176825-imitation-wheels-vs-genuine-wheel-discussion.html


nightcrawler (forum name)





===========================================

On 25 Apr 2013, at 08:46, Ben Jordan <[email protected]> wrote:



Hi Ron



Thank you for your email. As the European distributor for Rota Wheels we are best placed to reply.



Rota wheels are not fake, dodgy, unsafe or anything along those lines. They are made to the same JWL / VIA requirements as other genuine wheels. I have attached their JWL certificate, and also a testing certificate for a wheel for your reference.



There are wheels out there, often from China, which are fake, or replicas of forged wheels but cast - these are unsafe and are hopefully more the subject of debate. Rota engineer every design, and test it before putting them into production, and we at Rota Wheels UK supply wheels all over Europe for use in all sorts of events and on all sorts of cars, with complete confidence.



If anybody has any specific concerns please feel free to point them our way and we will be happy to put them straight. Broken wheel pictures show only the outcome of an event, not the whole story, so are not a useful way or telling if a wheel is good or not. Most of the broken Rota pictures aren't actually Rotas, and the rest have a story involving a crash behind them which is edited out in the telling of any stories by detractors of the brand.



By placing an order with us, you agree to be bound by our terms and conditions which can be found on our website



Please do not send payment card details over email, as this breaches our PCI policy.





Best Regards,





Ben Jordan



Rota Wheels UK LTD

Unit 7 Marsh End, 

Lords Meadow,

Crediton

Devon

Ex17 1dn 



(01363) 777007 



Rare Rims | Rota Wheels UK Find us on Facebook! Terms and Conditions 



From: Rota Wheels [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: 25 April 2013 02:02
To: Julian Pearcey; Ben Jordan
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Fwd: Rotawheels.com Web Inquiry - JWL/VIA certification


===================================================




From: ron xxxxx [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: 25 April 2013 09:03
To: Ben Jordan
Subject: Re: Rotawheels.com Web Inquiry - JWL/VIA certification




hi ben





thank you for taking this matter seriously.





rest assured i will post this email to the gtr forum for clarification and enlightment from immature conclusions based on non-supported opinions.





all the best








ron


==============================================




" RE: Rotawheels.com Web Inquiry - JWL/VIA certification 



FromBen Jordan 
Toron garcia 

I have added my 5p, but look forward to your post clearing things up 




By placing an order with us, you agree to be bound by our terms and conditions which can be found on our website



Please do not send payment card details over email, as this breaches our PCI policy.





Best Regards,





Ben Jordan



Rota Wheels UK LTD

Unit 7 Marsh End, 

Lords Meadow,

Crediton

Devon

Ex17 1dn 



(01363) 777007 



Rare Rims | Rota Wheels UK Find us on Facebook! Terms and Conditions 


=========================================


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)




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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

*Help from China*

I had to laugh about this e-mail as it is slightly related to our topic. It's from a Chinese stainless steel mill and they want to supply me with their goods. It appears they work with Apple and Toyota so that's good enough for me

Looks fairly genuine to me, and the sender appears to be English going by his name.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

I can also get a copy of PAWI's registration with PHILIPPINE SECURITIES EXCHANGE COMMISSION to prove they are duly organized and existing under and by virtue of the Laws of the Philippines if you require. but of course, at your expense :chuckle:


your turn :smokin:


peace


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

nightcrawler said:


>


Ron/Nightcrawler

EXCELLENT WORK! You got farther than I did, thanks very much!

Refreshing to see someone who took action to attempt to clarify this.

Unfortunately - for those of us who can read Japanese - this certificate - which I believe is definitely genuine - says only that the EQUIPMENT that ROTA uses, in their factory, is up to snuff. THERE IS NOTHING ABOUT ANY WHEEL BEING REGISTERED WITH JWTC. Remember, you STILL HAVE TO REGISTER THE WHEEL WITH JWTC IN JAPAN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO USE THE LOGO ON THE WHEEL.

Perhaps your contact there has that certificate of registration of the TE37 copy? That, I think, would shut me up on the VIA issue.

Whether that is a separate process from the wheel itself, I don't know. This IMPLIES that having the proper equipment means that they are allowed to mark their wheels this way, however I hate to be sour grapes but this isn't what the VIA website says - https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html

But let's assume that the VIA issue is now a non-issue.

It still doesn't matter, from what I was saying earlier, which is that, by copying the design of RAYS wheels, we still have IP infringement, whether VIA certified/registered or not.

Anyway - again, thanks (I really mean it) for tracking this down, in a mature and friendly manner.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

akasakaR33 said:


> Ron/Nightcrawler
> 
> EXCELLENT WORK! You got farther than I did, thanks very much!
> 
> ...



no worries my friend. I always come in peace. with all my love akasakaR33, big man hugs! 

I attempted to clarify the issue. wether there is another issue on this issue, I rest my case. im sure you know better than me. :bowdown1:


@Miguel-newera

I maybe wrong with my marketing analysis but I don't think the legal aspect which yodooku was saying about ROTA's marketing hindrance within Japan is probable.

peace buddy :bowdown1:


peace everyone. we are here for good faith :bowdown1:


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

OH Nightcrawler, PS - I just reread your email to Ben. 

The BIG issue was never the VIA certification, I think you misunderstood the argument (at least mine). The argument was:

ROTA engages in intellectual property theft because it copies designs of other manufacturers, like RAYS. And now I don't think anyone will deny this. Some people think it's a big deal, others don't care. OK.

The VIA issue was simply that, if ROTA had not registered with JWTC, then how can we trust what else they claim? So unfortunately your evidence doesn't resolve that, however I do hope you will be able to dig up proof of the registration (which would be easier than me finding NO evidence of registration, don't you agree).

I know that some will be thinking "it's the same thing." Well I think it is, and it isn't. We can now presume that, as your friend says, IF the wheels in question are produced and QA'd with the equipment (certified by JWTC) listed on the certificate, then they "would be made to JWL/VIA standards." 

I completely agree with this statement, actually.

However, until we can take that extra step and show that, indeed the wheel models in question were tested by an accredited THIRD PARTY and THEN REGISTERED with JWTC in Japan - there is still doubt as to the veracity of the ROTA claim, at least with respect to the VIA logo. Some people won't care, some will again find issue with this.

So... back to you buddy. Again, I appreciate the work you've done on this... we are ONE STEP AWAY from closure.


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> There are wheels out there, often from China, which are fake, or replicas of forged wheels but cast - these are unsafe and are hopefully more the subject of debate.


Oh the irony.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Actually for me the most worrying thing to come out of this debate is there apparently are no standards for wheel manufacturers to meet when selling in the UK?!


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

akasakaR33 said:


> OH Nightcrawler, PS - I just reread your email to Ben.
> 
> The BIG issue was never the VIA certification, I think you misunderstood the argument (at least mine). The argument was:
> 
> ...



hahaha with all my love buddy =)

as I said, you know better than me. if you think ROTA/PAWI still has to prove something else, its no longer up to me. tbh, I have loads of assignments due this week which are more important :chairshot

as I can see, this thread will just simply not stop. issues after another which then will circle around.

but of course, I give my respect to you. I am well impressed how you have been pursuing this matter (I mean it... no sarcasm).

I have nothing against ROTA and so of course with any expensive wheels such as Rays, et al. 

this was a simple thread which then became a big issue. 

my argument is simple. TESCO baked beans vs. HEINZ baked beans. is Tesco fake?

btw, if you want the registration, of course I can. as I said earlier..... not on my expense as this can not be acquired thru emails neither phone calls. im sure you know that.

peace


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

infamous_t said:


> Oh the irony.


rarerims said:

_"There are wheels out there, often from China, which are fake, or replicas of forged wheels but cast - these are unsafe and are hopefully more the subject of debate"_.

ROTA is not claiming their wheels are forged. he was referring to "forged wheels but cast" which obviously meant claiming to be forged but cast.

is there something wrong with the way I understand English? 

for the love of God...


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

nightcrawler said:


>


The relevant part of this certificate is the statement - 

'On the basis of this accreditation, JWTC recognizes test reports from this laboratory performed on equipment indicated in the following of this certificate'

This means that PAWI's laboratory and test equipment has been approved by the JWTC and they will accept and register test certificates for wheels produced and tested by PAWI on that equipment. This is 'self accreditation' as stated in Q1 in the JWTC link provided.

https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html

'For these technical standards, it is determined that auto manufacturers and wheel manufacturers conduct testing by themselves, and for products that conform to the standards (self-accreditation), markings should be placed on parts that can be easily checked in the state where JWL (for passenger cars) or JWL-T (for trucks and buses) marks is mounted on the vehicle.'


I do feel that if the JWTC are prepared to accept PAWI's credentials, and accept test certification provided on the wheels they manufacture, that the members here cannot continue continue to call them liars.....!!


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## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

:chuckle:I am in disbelief over some of the comments posted here, particularly those posted by 'Miguel'



Miguel - Newera said:


> I agree we're never going to come to a conclusion here, but to deny what's been checked by Aki as a factual is plain stupidity. Are you suggesting he made it up? *Rota IS NOT JWL / VIA approved. *
> 
> The markings on Rota wheels with regard to Japanese safety standards are 100% fake.


Do you have a memory problem Miguel? You brought up this very subject* 5 years ago* on this very forum

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/83533-rota-p45r-replica-lmgt4-flat-black-red-265-35-18-ad07s-r32-5.html

If I can draw your attention to post #67



Miguel - Newera said:


> As I promised - in my PM of 15th December, as we don't mean to cause any undue problems for you & to put things into the correct persective - we have this week checked with Tommy Kaira and they confirm that ROTA do indeed make wheels for them and that these are therefore VIA & JWL compliant, so I therefore owe you a full apology, which I hope you'll accept.


I accepted your apology last time, after you sent one of your 'reps' to fully investigate whether Rota was fully VIA and JWL compliant, this time im not so sure an apology is going to cut it.

If this isnt Miguel posting, which it would seem it cant be, I suggest you go and ask your boss whether its sensible to continue slandering a reputable wheel brand, that is rapidly losing patience with his companys insane ramblings. 



Miguel - Newera said:


> are you still really unsure of why they've never sold RAYS copy wheels in Japan and never will?


Im sure this cannot be 'Miguel' posting, as surely someone with their finger on the pulse to the extent that one would assume Newera would be, would notice that Rota's are already sold in Japan, and have been for the past five years.
In Miguels own statement from five years ago Tommy Kiara were buying Rotas - he checked himself! 
Just for fun thou, for those that still dont believe that Rota could possibly ever set foot in Japan...

?????????-The Drift Muscle-

Take a look at the right hand side Miguel


----------



## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

but yeh, we hate replicas


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

^^ oh no........

I did not know you exist here rotawheels. nice to see your response to the issues.

are you fake?


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

infamous_t said:


> Oh the irony.


ok I think I know what "irony" means now...


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

nightcrawler said:


> no worries my friend. I always come in peace. with all my love akasakaR33, big man hugs!
> 
> I attempted to clarify the issue. wether there is another issue on this issue, I rest my case. im sure you know better than me. :bowdown1:
> 
> ...



JWL and VIA are not the same thing.

Please read what the JWL standard is : the JWL mark, cast or forged into the wheel, indicates that the wheel has been* self-certified by its manufacturer* to meet the standard. I can self-certify that my wheels I made out of cheese meet the standard, you see where I'm going with this?


The Vehicle Inspection Association of Japan (VIA) independently tests wheels for JWL compliance. The certificate you need (and the one that matters) is from VIA, not JWL. 


ETA: It's not that it totally matters, I'm sure the ROTAs would probably pass if tested. My issue is that they may be using the VIA mark when they have not been tested by VIA. If it can be proven that VIA has a valid VIA inspection for say, their TE37 copy wheel, then I will be glad to not bring it up again.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

It's taken over 400 posts, but now we all know they are not fakes, just a popular design that sells well all over the world includ_ing Japan._


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## Addicted2Boost (Nov 15, 2007)

Oh wow, my long arse post didnt even get a mention, what a waste of time haha  even more WOW, is how a trades person at Newera has now totally lost all credibility due to all their persistence :chuckle: when a simple admission would have sufficed.. :chuckle:


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> ....just a popular design that sells well all over the world includ_ing Japan._


Can you tell me where I can buy some in Japan? 

For example, Rota 'Shakotan' design ( a direct knock-off of Hayashi's 'Street' design ). What retailer in Japan, where?

Should be easy for you to answer now......


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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

I wonder if it could be a design under license?! Highest bidder wins or perhaps move the design license around wheel manufacturers as profiteering exericse by the designer. I'm guessing with no license on build materials or manufacturing processes just the design only.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

TTOBES said:


> I do feel that if the JWTC are prepared to accept PAWI's credentials, and accept test certification provided on the wheels they manufacture, that the members here cannot continue continue to call them liars.....!!


Exactly...

but hell will freeze over before they will accept it though :chairshot

TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

rotawheelsuk said:


> :chuckle:I am in disbelief over some of the comments posted here, particularly those posted by 'Miguel'
> 
> 
> 
> ...












Ouch Miguel...that must've hurt...

:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:

TT


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## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> Can you tell me where I can buy some in Japan?
> 
> For example, Rota 'Shakotan' design ( a direct knock-off of Hayashi's 'Street' design ). What retailer in Japan, where?
> 
> Should be easy for you to answer now......


Sorry, do you mean the Hayashi 'Street' design? (a direct knock-off of the Italian Campagnolo wheels)


How about a set of SSR's that im sure Newera could get you?

SSR mesh









Convieniently Miguel Forgets that SSR are a 'replica' wheel brand.. 











In answer to your question, if you would like to buy a set of them, we can pass your details on to the Japanese Distributor.


----------



## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

I'm seriously pmsl if Rotawheelsuk is ACTUALLY Rota.

I did call this thread descending into slander and deformation of character.

I still stand by my wheels btw ;-)


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

rotawheelsuk said:


> Sorry, do you mean the Hayashi 'Street' design? (a direct knock-off of the Italian Campagnolo wheels)
> 
> 
> How about a set of SSR's that im sure Newera could get you?
> ...



OOOhhhhh.....this is starting to get interesting....

opcorn:opcorn:



TT


----------



## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

To clarify I am the owner of Rota Wheels UK, who hold the rights to the Rota brand in the UK and Europe.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

rotawheelsuk said:


> To clarify I am the owner of Rota Wheels UK, who hold the rights to the Rota brand in the UK and Europe.


:bowdown1: Awesome......

Go and kick some ass :chuckle:

TT


----------



## dave_gtr (Jun 21, 2009)

This thread just got more interesting, looking forward to the rest of the show


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

rotawheelsuk said:


> Sorry, do you mean the Hayashi 'Street' design? (a direct knock-off of the Italian Campagnolo wheels)


I was asking about Rota 'Shakotans'. 

Campagnolos were not quite the same, anyway. If you want to discuss who copied who _first_, we could create our own thread. If we started with the classic '8-spoke' design it could run and run....  




rotawheelsuk said:


> How about a set of SSR's that im sure Newera could get you?


Already own some SSRs, thanks. I've got some Rotas too, funnily enough.

Thing is, everyone knows that some of the Japanese wheel manufacturers started out imitating non-Japanese wheel designs. But in some cases ( I'm thinking of the likes of Yamaco and Minilite, for instance ) the Japanese 'imitators' actually pre-dated some of the most famous non-Japanese names. For the most part, the Japanese companies kind of grew out of it and went on to create their own designs, which themselves became imitated. What comes around goes around, and all that. I have no problem with designs that are a 'tip of the hat' to a previously available wheel ( like Rota's 'Aleica' being a revival of Yayoi's 'Sakura' design ), but it's frustrating to see certain companies not really acknowledging their influences... 





rotawheelsuk said:


> In answer to your question, if you would like to buy a set of them, we can pass your details on to the Japanese Distributor.


Can you tell me - here on the forum - the names and addresses of some actual Japanese _retailers_ for Rota 'Shakotan' design, please? For example, in the Kanto area? Until now, I was under the impression that they were not on open retail sale in Japan. If that situation has changed ( recently? ) then I'm interested to know where they can be purchased. Thanks.


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

^^ I knew TT and r32combat will come out of your caves 

this indeed gets more interesting..


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> OOOhhhhh.....this is starting to get interesting....
> 
> opcorn:opcorn:
> 
> TT


Did you honestly not know about that?

Wow....


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> Thing is, everyone knows that some of the Japanese wheel manufacturers started out imitating non-Japanese wheel designs.


REALLY....with some of the statements made on this thread recently you would be forgiven for thinking Japan was the originator and centre of excellence for......EVERYTHING :nervous:

On the subject of imitated wheels, what have the brand faithful to say regarding these, clearly 'copied' designs???









Vs








BBS LM vs. Work VS-XX

Or..









Vs








Work Meister S1 vs. SSR Professor SP1


Bit too close for comfort but I'm sure that, because they're Japanese brands that makes it absolutlely fine..

TT


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> Did you honestly not know about that?
> 
> Wow....


*UPDATE*............ I don't know everything!!

TT


----------



## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> For the most part, the Japanese companies kind of grew out of it and went on to create their own designs,


Yeh, they've completely grown out of it, look at how super original their latest wheel is :thumbsup:










Im sure Newera wouldnt sell you a set of those thou, being replicas of well, the Nismo wheels, or dare I say it the Rota GTR :thumbsup:


----------



## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

So are we saying it is normal industry practice to copy other wheel designs and Rota just do that because everyone else does? 

Interested from Rota - would you describe yourselves as a budget or premium brand?


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

rotawheelsuk said:


> Yeh, they've completely grown out of it, look at how super original their latest wheel is :thumbsup:


Didn't say they had "completely" grown out of it, did I? We all know what goes on ( or some of us do, anyway ). I'm fairly pragmatic about the subject, having been involved in making 'replica' parts for my own projects and the projects of others. Including magnesium wheels. 

With many of these designs, _mother nature_ got there first anyway...




You haven't forgotten about a Japanese retailer for Rota Shakotans, have you? Gentle reminder.


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

yodookie said:


> JWL and VIA are not the same thing.
> 
> Please read what the JWL standard is : the JWL mark, cast or forged into the wheel, indicates that the wheel has been* self-certified by its manufacturer* to meet the standard. I can self-certify that my wheels I made out of cheese meet the standard, you see where I'm going with this?
> 
> ...


Well stated. JWL is self certified, VIA requires testing and THEN registration. That's what worries me too, was such registration done? 

On the other hand, if we can show that ROTA wheels have VIA registration, then honestly, I will be happy for everyone. 

Seriously, I will be happy to be wrong in this case, as far as the VIA registration is concerned... because then, we can all go home knowing that ROTAs are WELL MADE copies! (again, whether they are "fake" or not, is subject to personal interpretation).


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

nightcrawler said:


> hahaha with all my love buddy =)
> 
> as I said, you know better than me. if you think ROTA/PAWI still has to prove something else, its no longer up to me. tbh, I have loads of assignments due this week which are more important :chairshot
> 
> ...


Me too - I actually have lots to do, but this was too interesting to let up... I seriously hope I haven't offended TOO many people... my goal again, was to ensure that people who buy ROTAs really understand what these copy wheels are about. This forum is a perfect place to get it all out in the open. 

Anyway, while I am glad that ROTA has obtained JWTC approval so they can self certify - yes, if you (or anyone else) can get proof of VIA registration then we can close the book on THAT particular issue.

Peace back at you bro!


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> Can you tell me where I can buy some in Japan?
> 
> For example, Rota 'Shakotan' design ( a direct knock-off of Hayashi's 'Street' design ). What retailer in Japan, where?
> 
> Should be easy for you to answer now......


Yeah, good point. I've never seen them for sale here in Japan, so wondering why they are an "industry partner" as on the drift link...

every time I do a search in Japanese for "ROTA wheels" I get a bunch of links to "Rota Virus".... really! (not trying to be funny, just saying that there is no Japanese internet presence...)


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

@yodookie

pls read Q2

https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html

_*"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?
A2:	VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles."*_

are you saying that JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL and that its CHAIRMAN MASUMI SHIBA are not recognized by VIA (Vehicle Inspection Association of Japan)?? :nervous:

@ akasakaR33

hi buddy. i understand your point but ill ask the same question to you?

pls enlighten us.

thanks bud. peace be with you :thumbsup:


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

@akasakaR33

i sent you an invitation to be friends as my peace offering (im serious, no sarcasm) :thumbsup::bowdown1:


----------



## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

tarmac terror said:


> Ouch Miguel...that must've hurt...
> 
> :chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:
> 
> TT


 :chuckle:


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

rotawheelsuk said:


> To clarify I am the owner of Rota Wheels UK, who hold the rights to the Rota brand in the UK and Europe.


Fantastic.

Ok I will admit I am one of the ones who have called into doubt the character of the ROTAs. But, as I have said earlier, my goal is to make sure ROTA buyers, as well as the rest of us, have a clear picture of what ROTA is all about.

To summarize, I think we all agree on the following:
1) ROTA wheel designs are copies of other designs out there.
2) ROTA wheels have the JWL and VIA markings
3) ROTA wheels are cast, where sometimes the originals which they copy are forged.

For #3, there was discussion on the durability (not by me), but others have defended ROTA wheels and this discussion is, I think, over. There was also discussion on how there would be more unsprung weight vs a similar forged wheel, but this discussion seems to have petered out, as well.

For #2, the copy of the certificate that Ron provided did wonders, because it showed that the JWTC DID inspect ROTA equipment at the factory, and gave it a passing grade. So, this would allow ROTA to "self certify" and legitimately place the JWL mark on their wheels.

The issue here, however - and I am hoping you can help on this - is whether or not the VIA mark is legitimate. The wheel must be tested, and then registered at JWTC, to be allowed to display the VIA logo. When I called JWTC here in Japan, the gentleman I spoke to claimed he had never heard of ROTA and that ROTA was not registered in Japan. This lead me, and others, to believe, that there could be a problem with misrepresentation for this VIA logo. 

Would you be able to help us clarify this by providing proof of such registration please?

Also a question for you - if ROTA wheels are indeed JWL and VIA certified, why is it not possible to find any text that says so? (I note, for example, that this link - Rare Rims | Rota Wheels UK - merely says that ROTA is "tested to JWL and VIA standards", but I think this is different from actual VIA registration??)

Now - even if it turns out that the VIA logo IS INDEED legitimate, (and this is good because then QUALITY of the wheel will no longer be in question) then the next step would be to resolve the following:

#1 - Our discussion has been centered mostly on the ROTA copy of the RAYS TE37 wheel. The fact that ROTA copies - for some people, this constitutes intellectual property infringement, but to others, they don't care. Do you know if ROTA has been licensed by RAYS, for example, so that ROTA has the full legal right to make this copy? Or, do you know what ROTA's official stance is on these wheels which are copies of wheels of other manufacturers? Does ROTA believe, for example, that their wheel design does NOT constitute infringement of intellectual property?

Thanks in advance, 

Aki

PS - very, VERY interesting re the Tommy Kaira thing... hmmm....I would like an explanation from Miguel as well...


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

nightcrawler said:


> @akasakaR33
> 
> i sent you an invitation to be friends as my peace offering (im serious, no sarcasm) :thumbsup::bowdown1:


No peace offering needed, I don't think we were ever at war? Just friendly (but heated, LOL) disagreements I think between some of us more stubborn members? But, yeah sure will accept.

So any plans to visit Japan anytime soon? Bring all your questions and I'll help you get them all answered (really!). LOL

Aki


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

nightcrawler said:


> @yodookie
> 
> pls read Q2
> 
> ...


Yeah let me read the Japanese... standby....


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

nightcrawler said:


> @yodookie
> 
> pls read Q2
> 
> ...


Ok - the answer to your question is: The Japan Vehicle Inspection Association - VIA (confusingly referred above as "Vehicle Inspection") is one of 3 entities that make up the JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL. The other two entities are: 1) Japan Aluminum Association (JAA), and 2) Nippon Auto Parts Aftermarket Committee (NAPAC).

VIA is described as the "independent third party testing institution" and does the testing. If the wheel passes, then the wheel is registered with the COUNCIL.

So this also means, you cannot "self test" to obtain VIA certification, which is what this second Answer is trying to explain (makes more sense in Japanese).


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

rotawheelsuk said:


> but yeh, we hate replicas


there's a difference between notifying the buyer that it's a replica and taking credit for replicating an already existing product by putting your own brand name on it. and this is something already touched on in this very thread, so as for calling out Miguel in a thread FIVE years ago, you seem to be guilty of the same thing, in the exact same thread.

also with regards to the SSR comments, it looks like you're trying to shift blame and change the subject so that he starts to now defend himself, but in doing so you're also admitting that rota is similar to SRR and that they are imitation wheels under a different name.

So although it looks on the surface that you're trying to make a fool of Miguel ( with your rota buddies mercurially jumping on the band wagon), you're inadvertently admitting to a number of accusations in this very thread.

namely that they are copied designs of original wheels under a different name ... after all .. 

selling a few replica wheels is one thing (who doesn't want big money looking wheels for 1/3 the price ... but the problem is, how do i find the original seller of the replica wheels if they are marketed as original .. after all there's no name/brand to "goto" but ... make sure you change a few insignificant things and slap your own brand name on it, and all of a sudden you have a name and people now know where they can get these replica wheels from. Ergo ROTA was born.


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

akasakaR33 said:


> Ok - the answer to your question is: The Japan Vehicle Inspection Association - VIA (confusingly referred above as "Vehicle Inspection") is one of 3 entities that make up the JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL. The other two entities are: 1) Japan Aluminum Association (JAA), and 2) Nippon Auto Parts Aftermarket Committee (NAPAC).
> 
> VIA is described as the "independent third party testing institution" and does the testing. If the wheel passes, then the wheel is registered with the COUNCIL.
> 
> So this also means, you cannot "self test" to obtain VIA certification, which is what this second Answer is trying to explain (makes more sense in Japanese).


so you are saying that it is an umbrella, right?

hence:

MAIN:

JAPAN LIGHT ALLOY AUTOMOTIVE WHEEL TESTING COUNCIL is the main one 

and under are:
VIA
JAA
NAPAC

this is how i understand your explanation Aki.

do you mean that Japan Light alloy Automotive Council does not have any right to certify VIA? which i pressume it is the main/council? it does not make any sense bud... pls enlighten us more. 

im more than happy to concede and accept the bitterness of reality if ROTA is fake despite the certificate i posted in their behalf and rarerims.co.uk's statement and rotawheels.uk's clarifications. not to mention, miguel's admission/apologies on the same issue 5years ago.

would be nice if miguel says something about this.

btw... thanks for accepting my offer hehe =) ive got cousins who live in Japan and would love to visit someday. and yeah ive got loads of questions which i will bombard you of about GTR plus of course i will politely ask you if you can show me the best car meets around ho hey lol

ron


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

@Aki

i think it would be great to ask your friend from VIA again. this seems to be his/her words against the document. unless VIA can prove that ROTA is fake, then i will consider the document as genuine and ROTA is certified. this seems unfair for ROTA after showing the certificate and their confirmation. they have done their part. dont you think?


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

CrysAk said:


> there's a difference between notifying the buyer that it's a replica and taking credit for replicating an already existing product by putting your own brand name on it. and this is something already touched on in this very thread, so as for calling out Miguel in a thread FIVE years ago, you seem to be guilty of the same thing, in the exact same thread.
> 
> also with regards to the SSR comments, it looks like you're trying to shift blame and change the subject so that he starts to now defend himself, but in doing so you're also admitting that rota is similar to SRR and that they are imitation wheels under a different name.
> 
> ...


ROTA did not say the are RAYS, did they? did ROTA say their wheels are forged? cant remember buddy.

copying style as much as i hate to admit, is a marketing strategy. it happens everywhere and anywhere. but they did not put RAYS logo on their wheels, did they? Riverisland has chino trousers, and so does primark, Next, Burton, etc. and they all have the same style and looks. so whats wrong with that? i assume you hate primark, riverislan, etc clothes if they were replicated?

i think it was miguel who accused ROTA about fake five years ago and miguel proved himself wrong hence he apologised. apologies were accepted.

peace be with you sir


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

i knew this thread is not gona stop heeee heeee heeee

i come in peace and love everyone =)


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

nightcrawler said:


> ROTA did not say the are RAYS, did they? did ROTA say their wheels are forged? cant remember buddy.
> 
> copying style as much as i hate to admit, is a marketing strategy. it happens everywhere and anywhere. but they did not put RAYS logo on their wheels, did they? Riverisland has chino trousers, and so does primark, Next, Burton, etc. and they all have the same style and looks. so whats wrong with that? i assume you hate primark, riverislan, etc clothes if they were replicated?
> 
> ...


You must of misread my post (or not understood it) because your reply is as if it's in reply to something completely different, but it's a 31 long page thread and i'm referencing 3-4 separate posts (but quoting only one) so i'm guessing you're getting confused somewhere along the line, perhaps i should of quoted everything i was referencing but, in all honesty i don't have the time for that, esp with fanbois jumping in and making a fool of themselves every 5 minutes

FWIW i'm on the fence about this stuff, i know exactly what the deal is and can see both sides of the story, my problem is with people being ignorant to the obvious facts, after all ignorance is bliss ^^


----------



## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

CrysAk said:


> So although it looks on the surface that you're trying to make a fool of Miguel ( with your rota buddies mercurially jumping on the band wagon),


I came on here to defend the brand of wheels that I sell, the Skyline 'Replica' picture perhaps was childish, however this is the second time that Miguel has libelously called the Rota brand into question regarding safety testing, so you can forgive me a bit of a dig surely?

Of course I will bring up a five year old thread when it in plain english shows him apologising for the same thing.

Its one thing for Aki to question and research the safety standards, but a completely different thing for Miguel (who has previously stated the same thing, then apologised - which I accepted) to publically state as a 'respected' business on here:



Miguel - Newera said:


> Rota IS NOT JWL / VIA approved.
> 
> The markings on Rota wheels with regard to Japanese safety standards are 100% fake.


You'd be pretty annoyed I reckon!

As for the requests to 'prove' the VIA stamping, do you really think that JWTC would approve Rota to stamp wheels as JWL, but overlook the 600,000 wheels or so per year that Rota are pumping out with the 'fake' VIA stamp...


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

i can understand your frustration but this is a thread where you are being called out and you'l find that it's not about being "right" , its about not being wrong. (same thing on the surface but...) you can be right all day long, but if you've got no proof of it, it doesn't help convince the other party

people have asked for proof of VIA and thus far you have been unable to provide it, instead shifting the topic and providing a certificate that is related but not what was asked for.

As far as I'm concerned you sell discontinued style wheels, readily available brand new, in any colour and any fitment .. a VERY good thing in my eyes, however there seems to be this uncertainty with the safety and safety approval markings of your wheels. (unless i misread or missed this, after all it;s a long thread ^^)


----------



## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

CrysAk said:


> i can understand your frustration but this is a thread where you are being called out and you'l find that it's not about being "right" , its about not being wrong. (same thing i know) you can be right all day long, but if you've got no proof of it, it doesn't help convince the other party)
> 
> people have asked for proof of VIA and thus far you have been unable to provide it, instead shifting the topic and providing a certificate that is related but not what was asked for.


In fairness, it was what was originally asked for (originally all JWTC and 'JWL' recognition was also called into question!), however once that was satisfied the goalposts were shifted somewhat, to something that I dont have to hand here in the UK.

Once we come up with the VIA 'proof' I guess the goalposts will move again, which for me at least is becoming tedious, as I feel with have been there and done that 5 years ago, when Miguel himself came up with confirmation that Rota were JWL and VIA approved (the fact that Tommy Kiara used them, means by definition they had to be VIA approved, to be allowed to use them on their own vehicles)

However I take your point on board  

hey ho, home time! :thumbsup:


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

unfortunately that's how things go when people get proven wrong, "but what about" then comes in to play 

until this VIA thing is resolved, it's an unresolved discussion ^^

It's frustrating but you'l get a lot more people respecting your brand by providing proof and keeping personal feelings out of it, especially as the representative of the threads topic.

blah, i hate posting in threads like this because i end up rephrasing my posts right after i post them to try and keep emotional bias out of the way.


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

OK, I have been away from my desk all of today and just been catching up with what has been posted just now. It's 2.40am and I have an early start tommorow so I can't spend a lot of time on this right now. 

So we don't go out of context, here is the thread which shows my apology to Rota some years back:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/83533-rota-p45r-replica-lmgt4-flat-black-red-265-35-18-ad07s-r32-5.html

It's about Rota selling wheels to Tommy Kaira. It was not about Rota having direct VIA / JWL registration AFIK. 

As before, the fact remains that on JAWA's website, Neither Rota nor PAWI are listed.
All companies that I can see listed appear to be Japanese. 



Miguel - Newera said:


> JAWA | Objective
> 
> JAWA | Objective
> 
> ROTA isn't listed by JAWA as a member.


I think before I answer further, I would want to send a copy of the displayed certificate to JWL and ask them if (a) it is legitimate (It certainly looks like it, but confirmation would further cement the truth and this would be of benefit to all) and (b) entitles PAWI to put the VIA & JWL logos on any wheel they produce.

And if not, say for example testing by independent body is required - just what wheels from PAWI if any have such approval to legitimately be able to put VIA & JWL on (I am not sure they will provide such specific information, but perhaps Rota can confirm by showing additional certification?)

It may take some time to get this information, as I already have plans tommorow all day and won't be in the office, thereafter it's Golden week National Holiday in Japan and most operations will be closed for much if not all of next week.

I'd be relieved if Rota / PAWI does indeed have the correct approval for putting VIA & JWL markings on their wheels, but I would like to get confirmation of this from JAWA first before coming to a conclusion here.

Does that seem fair to all?


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> OK, I have been away from my desk all of today and just been catching up with what has been posted today.
> 
> So we don't go out of context, here is the thread which shows my apology to Rota some years back:
> 
> ...


It would have been fairer to do your research before making such comments.


----------



## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> It would have been fairer to do your research before making such comments.


I agree, like I said, it's slanderous IMHO, not something a TRADER should be doing - puts the forum in a bad light.

Nice to see Miguel has also DELETED his apologie post in the other thread too! 

I'm glad that rotawheelsuk QUOTED it.


----------



## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)




----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

so raising valid and questionable concerns in a thread made specifically for that is now slanderous? ... so many drama queens in this thread

instead let's all not question anything and take everything at face value.


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:



> Rota IS NOT JWL / VIA approved.
> 
> The markings on Rota wheels with regard to Japanese safety standards are 100% fake.





CrysAk said:


> so raising valid and questionable concerns in a thread made specifically for that is now slanderous?


That's not exactly the correct way to raise 'valid and questionable concerns'; it is written as a statement of fact.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CrysAk said:


> so raising valid and questionable concerns in a thread made specifically for that is now slanderous? ... so many drama queens in this thread
> 
> instead let's all not question anything and take everything at face value.


Not at all, but it's always good to have the facts before shooting your mouth off. 

Basically, Rota were branded as rubbish and fraudulently claiming to conform to Japanese wheel regulations.

Being branded as rubbish is subjective, whatever, but being labelled as fraudulent is not good.

So, my point is, get the facts 1st, present them and go from there. 

And remember
_Be Careful Of The Words You Say. 
Keep Them Soft And Sweet, 
Because You Never Know,
From Day To Day, 
Which Ones You'll Have To Eat._


----------



## R33JONO (Aug 17, 2011)

Gaz. said:


> I smashed a set of Regamasters so hard that I bent the rear subframe, 2 toe arms, 2 lower rear arms and cracked a driveshaft on my old S14A. The Regas held up enough to hold air and drive home on (despite being little more than scrap) thanks to being high quality (and expensive) wheels. I dare say the Rota Slipstream equivalents wouldn't have withstood the impact as well.


I did pretty much the same thing on my old gtst. 
That had bk racing wheels on at the time still held air although I was unable to drive home as the rear lower ball joint was wedged in the wheel. At £900 for the wheels with falken tyres I wouldn't call them expensive!!!!


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## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

Is having wheels to Japanese standard the gold standard or something? Why keep referring to Japan and not elsewhere? Or was Japan just roped in because Rays were mentioned? (I'm guessing Rays originate from Japan? - If not, I'm very confused)


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

rotawheelsuk said:


> I came on here to defend the brand of wheels that I sell, the Skyline 'Replica' picture perhaps was childish, however this is the second time that Miguel has libelously called the Rota brand into question regarding safety testing, so you can forgive me a bit of a dig surely?
> 
> Of course I will bring up a five year old thread when it in plain english shows him apologising for the same thing.
> 
> ...



You still haven't provided a distributor in Japan. I have not seen one place to buy ROTAs here, and there are no ROTA wheels listed in any Japanese website, to include Yahoo auctions, etc.


Outside of Japan, the JWL and VIA stamp doesn't _legally_ mean anything. If those wheels never hit Japan's shores, then JWTC, VIA, et. al. have no standing for a lawsuit.


You are selling wheels with certain quality control and testing markings on them--- Are you saying you don't have proof that these wheels even meet the standards (one in particular) that are stamped on them?


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

R32 Combat said:


> It would have been fairer to do your research before making such comments.


Agreed...

It has almost reached the stage that to continue to question the credentials and honesty of both PAWI and rotawheelsuk, and to question the legitimacy of the documentation they have supplied, is bordering on arrogant and rude.

If rotawheelsuk can provide a copy of the VIA registration for the Rota Grid wheel will that be enough to convince all or will that just produce another sidestep??


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

TTOBES said:


> Agreed...
> 
> It has almost reached the stage that to continue to question the credentials and honesty of both PAWI and rotawheelsuk, and to question the legitimacy of the documentation they have supplied, is bordering on arrogant and rude.
> 
> If rotawheelsuk can provide a copy of the VIA registration for the Rota Grid wheel will that be enough to convince all or will that just produce another sidestep??


Tell you what guys - while we wait for Rota UK to come up with the documentation and answers which I believe I politely asked for, I in turn will call JWTC/VIA today here in Japan, and ask further questions on this topic.

I plan to ask the following:
1) Are the JWL and VIA standards, a BRAND standard, or a per wheel standard?

2) The certificate as provided by Ron (Nightcrawler). What is this, and what purpose does it serve. What is the accreditation process?

3) Does having such equipment, as shown in the certificate, allow ROTA to self-certify compliance with JWL? If not, then what is the proper procedure

4) Same question, but for VIA? If not, then what is the proper procedure? What evidence is there that would show this?

5) Would a manufacturer (ROTA) have copies, on hand, evidencing compliance with JWL? Would it have copies of VIA certification?

6) (I asked this before but will try again). Is there any way I can find out if ROTA HAVE obtained certification from JWTC? Is there any way I can find out if ROTA has registered for VIA? Have you heard of ROTA?

7) IF a manufacturer falsely represented compliance with these standards, then what would be the effect in Japan? What about overseas?

****
Anything else guys? Given the time zone difference, I realize that others may have suggestions as well. So I'll hold off calling them until later this afternoon.

Aki

PS Not sure about being rude, but to answer your question, YES, being able to produce the certification would be fantastic! Would certainly put a lot of people's minds at ease, I think.


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

nightcrawler said:


> so you are saying that it is an umbrella, right?
> 
> hence:
> 
> ...


Hi Ron,

What I was trying to say was, there is a council, MADE UP OF those 3 entities. Therefore, of course the council has the right to decide to accept the result of testing by VIA (one of these entities), and then register the wheel as being VIA certified. But the council has the final authority.

Aki


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

LiamGTR said:


> Is having wheels to Japanese standard the gold standard or something? Why keep referring to Japan and not elsewhere? Or was Japan just roped in because Rays were mentioned? (I'm guessing Rays originate from Japan? - If not, I'm very confused)


Liam, great question. I think we are all spun up on this, because ROTA wheels have the dual Japanese domestic market certification logos on them (despite not being sold in Japan...). I presume there are other standards out there as well, and if ROTA wheels have them, then someone could choose to follow up on that issue as well.

Aki


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

akasakaR33 said:


> Tell you what guys - while we wait for Rota UK to come up with the documentation and answers which I believe I politely asked for, I in turn will call JWTC/VIA today here in Japan, and ask further questions on this topic.
> 
> I plan to ask the following:
> 1) Are the JWL and VIA standards, a BRAND standard, or a per wheel standard?
> ...



Cool bud, will be interested in the answers, however the certificate supplied was in the name of PAWI so it would pay to ask about them too. That may be why they had never heard of ROTA when you rang last time. 

Cheers


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

TTOBES said:


> Cool bud, will be interested in the answers, however the certificate supplied was in the name of PAWI so it would pay to ask about them too. That may be why they had never heard of ROTA when you rang last time.
> 
> Cheers


Good point. Actually, last time (maybe I forgot to write it out) I DID mention PAWI first, then ROTA. In any case, will do both. I suppose I should also mention ROTA GRID (the name of the wheel model, too) right?

But I will stick to this until I get answers. I would also volunteer to stop by during a late lunch, but these guys are at least an hour away...


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

As the OP pointed out this thread isn't just about Rota, I presume you'll be asking the same questions of other 'imitation' wheel manufacturers Aki?


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

matt j said:


> As the OP pointed out this thread isn't just about Rota, I presume you'll be asking the same questions of other 'imitation' wheel manufacturers Aki?


indeed.

i think this thread has gone far already. it was initially just a simple question about "imitation wheels vs. genuine wheels" and now has turned directly and solely to ROTA/PAWI's legality.

is this going to be a court case to ruin the company? why do we have to go thru this process of investigation such as Miguel is proposing to do? he has proven something 5yrs ago, and was wrong, ended up apologising.

we have exerted too much effort here. are we planning to sue and knock down ROTA/PAWI? what damage has been done to each of us that caused this deep investigation? did we buy rota wheels and caused you accident that lead to physical injuries and they are liable for money?

whats the point of this?


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Good points, both of you. 

To answer Matt's question, I did NOT once mention ROTA, and I only mentioned PAWI once, and that was because I was asking questions about the Certificate that Ron provided, as I'll show in my next post.

Ron, I look at it this way - yes this has gone on for awhile, but this is a chance for all of us to get educated on this issue. Has anyone else EVER called up a standards organization on this topic? In Japanese? LOL probably not. So figure this to be additional car knowledge that only THIS forum can offer. And let's put this debate to rest. The more real information, and less supposition, the better, right? BTW, I think you did a great job moving us in this direction.

In the end, some of us will be right, and some of us will be wrong. Some will have said too much, some will have not said enough. But it doesn't matter in the end, I think, so long as we learn the truth and a little bit about this topic. 

I for one would be happy to be proven wrong, and I certainly won't be one to hold a grudge against anyone who debated me, and I hope the converse also applies. So long as we all end up better for it. (and yes that means I have my prejudices as well, like we all do).


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

LiamGTR said:


> Is having wheels to Japanese standard the gold standard or something? Why keep referring to Japan and not elsewhere? Or was Japan just roped in because Rays were mentioned? (I'm guessing Rays originate from Japan? - If not, I'm very confused)


because JDM is cool y0!

It's the same reason people buy SuperDry, despite them being British.

the via stamp just makes them even more JDM


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

This started as a very readable thread and has degenerated into one of the most pedantic ones as it predictably dives into the gutter and below.

Of course it will never be up there with the classics that we have had on here but its nice to see people trying hard to get it there.

Even so despite my post I cant resist joining in so may I ask.........

As regards the authenticity of the paperwork/certificate have you thought about carbon dating it to check it sint a replica


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

From my own personal point of view...

I'm sick and tired of the constant witch hunt that happens any time the name Rota is even hinted at on the interweb.

Every time a picture of a broken wheel appears 'it's a ROTA!!!' and half of them aren't.
Someone posts 'Took my Work wheel in to get a puncture fixed and one of the spokes is cracked'....The next post is 'Oh, first time I've seen that. Now, if it was a ROTA...??'!!
PAWI have been in business for 30 yrs, produce 600,000 wheels per year including OEM and people compare them to cheap Chinese crap from companies less than a year old!!
They are constantly singled out and slagged off for copying other companies wheels when every company, even the big names do the same!!
The brand whores rave on about their $7,000 big name wheels and look down their noses at me and my $1,700 Rota's!!
How can anyone justify the rediculous price of the above wheels?? Forged or not, I refuse to be 'ripped to the tits' for a brand name!!
And....!!

Sheese, I feel much better now.....


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

akasakaR33 said:


> Good points, both of you.
> 
> x x x x x
> 
> ...


I cant say anything more TBH. it has been a long debate, issues after issues, and self opinions. 

as I have helped on this topic, even if I hated to do, forced me to stepped in due to some unjustified and bias reasoning/information.

im tired reading this thread but it was a good experience. 

your phone call about VIA against Rarerims.co.uk' explanation and PAWI's certificate should be enough and stopped from there IMHO. we are not a Court to extend this furthermore and Juries/Judges to decide. But yes, for argument and information purposes, I do agree.

Its been nice to speak to you Aki. also nice to see everyone contributed to this thread especially, TT, MattJ, R32Combat, Trev, Miguel, and you of course.

I rest my case.

PS. 
Yes, this is full of drama. if you (not you Aki) don't want to have it, don't join then. why are you affected? :thumbsup:


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

*My interview today with Mr. Sakurai, at JWTC*

(BTW he was NOT the same guy I spoke to earlier this week.)

In preparation for the telephone call, I reviewed the website again, and found that there are two ways to register for the VIA logo with JWTC – actual physical testing of every wheel made by a manufacturer, by VIA, and then by documentation, on equipment that has been certified by JWTC. 
https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon2.html

However, the text appeared to state that, ONE wheel had to be physically tested in Japan, after which FOUR wheels could then be registered via documentation (as I note below, I followed up on this on my call).

*****
I called, introduced myself and explained our debate online, and then followed (roughly) the list of questions I had laid out in my earlier post:

1) Sakurai: the JWL and VIA standards apply to EACH wheel model. The JWL standard is really an OEM standard, the VIA standard is for aftermarket, but it’s important to remember that each standard is applied to each wheel model. And, these logos are applicable ONLY for the Japan Domestic Market.

Me: what does that mean? 

Sakurai: It means that these marks represent the wheel is quality, and in fact, no one in Japan will sell wheels that do not have this mark, or wheels where the manufacturer has not registered the wheel with us, even if it bears the marks.

Me: (jumping ahead a bit to my Question 6). How could I check to see if a wheel was registered with you? Can you check?

Sakurai: there are literally thousands of wheels registered with us, so it would be “taihen” (= royal pain in the ass). I’m sorry but I won't check for you.

Me: Do you issue certificates showing registration for VIA to the manufacturer, once they are registered with you? (this was my original Question 5)

Sakurai: Yes, and in fact, that is really the best and easiest way of obtaining proof of registration with us.

2) Ron's Certificate (I explained how it was titled, and mentioned the full name of PAWI):

Sakurai: this means that personnel from JWTC went down, inspected, and confirmed that their equipment was up to JWTC standards. 

Me: Then this means that the wheels are built to JWTC standards?

Sakurai: Absolutely not. All it means is that their machines meet our standards, it says nothing about the final product.

Me: But can’t we presume that the wheels meet your standards?

Sakurai: The certificate is no guarantee that anything made with these machines, will in fact be “JWL” or “VIA” compliant. In fact we get this inquiry all the time (usually from China, lately from Pakistan), and our official answer is “unless the wheel is registered with us, no one is allowed to display the logo and no assumption may be made of the wheel’s quality.” 

3) Me: So self-certification is not possible for JWL?

Sakurai: It’s possible, but it must be pursuant to the standards we have. And again, the JWL logo is meant primarily for the OEMs for domestic sale. We trust the OEMs will maintain the standards.

4) Me: What about self certification for VIA? Isn't it possible to self-certify if you have equipment that meets your standards?

Sakurai: You must first have an accredited institution here in Japan, test a representative wheel, physically here in Japan, only after which you are allowed to submit up to 4 wheel models for VIA registration on such a documentary basis, subject to the test results showing the wheels meet the standards.

The other way, of course, is not to do a document based submission and have every wheel physically tested here before registration.

7) Me: One final question – if you saw a wheel, sold overseas only, with these markings but the wheel was not registered with you, what would your reaction be? 

Sakurai: I personally would characterize that wheel as a “ni-se mono.” (translate that as you wish). In any case that would be a clear case of trademark infringement.

Me: What effect in Japan?

Sakurai: No distributor will import and then sell such a wheel.

Me: But if they were inexpensive and well made, why not?

Sakurai: Because that would violate commonly accepted industry practice. No one would risk it.

Me: What about overseas?

Sakura: Well, we have no control there. Again these standards are for the domestic market.

Me: Why don’t you go after such manufacturers? 

Sakurai: We do what we can – lately we go to auto parts shows (China, Middle East, etc.) and warn when we see violations. However, we are a cash strapped society, and legal action is very expensive – we try what we can do to get the word out, as you can see from our English and Chinese web pages. But the reality is, even if we were successful with one, others would arise in its place, it would be endless.

Me: Thank you very much for your time, Sakurai-san. Myself, and my fellow gaijin Skyline fans greatly appreciate this. May I call back if we have any follow up questions?

Sakurai: Yes of course, any time.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

TTOBES said:


> From my own personal point of view...
> 
> I'm sick and tired of the constant witch hunt that happens any time the name Rota is even hinted at on the interweb.
> 
> ...


I share that viewpoint also. I think the fact that PAWI are an OEM would be enough to satisfy even the most ardent of critics. To get an approval to supply as OEM means going down a very rigorous process where equipment, supply chain management and QC (to name a few) are inspected by the car manufacturer. Do you SERIOUSLY think that if PAWI were deficient in ANY of the audited areas that ANY car manufacturer would touch them with a bargepole??? The liability issues would have them running a mile...

TT


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

akasakaR33 said:


> (BTW he was NOT the same guy I spoke to earlier this week.)
> 
> In preparation for the telephone call, I reviewed the website again, and found that there are two ways to register for the VIA logo with JWTC – actual physical testing of every wheel made by a manufacturer, by VIA, and then by documentation, on equipment that has been certified by JWTC.
> https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon2.html
> ...


! wow, nice work, so all that's left on this VIA issue to resolve it once and for all is proof of the certificate of VIA that ROTA will have?


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## blitzer_bhoy (May 26, 2007)

CrysAk said:


> ! wow, nice work, so all that's left on this VIA issue to resolve it once and for all is proof of the certificate of VIA that ROTA will have?


Drumroll..........


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## rotawheelsuk (Nov 9, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> Do you SERIOUSLY think that if PAWI were deficient in ANY of the audited areas that ANY car manufacturer would touch them with a bargepole??? The liability issues would have them running a mile...
> 
> TT


Theres no logic in this argument, it has turned somewhat into a witchhunt.

If we were applying logic, then the following would have answered any questions posed. - I have underlined the relevant words.










To summarise
JWTC have *ACCREDITED *_(a person, organization, or course of study) Officially recognized or authorized)_

*PHILIPPINE ALUMINIUM WHEELS* (ROTA)

*JWTC RECOGNIZES TEST REPORTS FROM THIS LABORATORY*

Verb 2. recognise - grant credentials to; "The Regents officially recognized the new educational institution"; "recognize an academic degree"
accredit, recognize
licence, license, certify - authorize officially; "I am licensed to practice law in this state" 

Approval Numbers:
*VIA* A-96-2
*VIA *B-86-2
*VIA* c-121-2
*VIA* C-120-2

Note there is no mention of JWL here, it is VIA APPROVAL Numbers, if these were machines that were for testing JWL standards, they would be on there.. not VIA.

Simply put PAWI have a certified (by JWTC) Laboratory, from which JWTC recognise (See definition of recognise above) test certificates from.

From my understanding, instead of every wheel being shipped to Japan for testing, JWTC accredit a wheel testing laboratory, and periodically carry out random testing to ensure that the standards are being kept.

Where the confusion comes about perhaps is that Rota (and all other overseas manufacturers from what I can gather), do not send the wheels in to VIA Japan.. if you think about it, it would be a logistical nightmare, Rota for example may make 20 new wheels, in 5 sizes each, each one would need a mininimum of 4 wheels just to carry out each individual test. 

Thats 400 wheels being sent from Rota alone to Japan for testing, all other VIA stamped wheels (a high percentage of all wheels to be fair) would need to do the same.. There would quite easily be a few containers of wheels per day turning up at VIA Japan

Bare in mind some of these tests take some considerable time per wheel (up to 250,000 cycles!) , there logically wouldnt be enough time for them to test thousands of wheels themselves.

VIA Japans testing station would be overrun.

This is really all I can say on the subject, I have asked Aki for the name of the individual he spoke to at VIA, as the misinformation that he has received has added considerable fuel to the fire.

I can assure you, that despite the obvious hope from some individuals that Rota's testing is sub par, this is not the case.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

So, PAWI have their own accredited LAB which is capable of doing the testing to the recognised VIA standard. 

That seems pretty clear and concise to me!!

Confusion over...

TT


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

rotawheelsuk said:


> I can assure you, that despite the obvious hope from some individuals that Rota's testing is sub par, this is not the case.


Can you comment on the fact that some Rota wheels ( made by PAWI ) carry the VIA testing logo - which is a Japanese standard - but do not appear to be officially imported and retailed in Japan?

If Rota wheels are available in Japan, please can you tell me _where_? And if they are not ( as appears to be the case ) then why do they wear the VIA testing logo, and indeed _why_ are they not being sold in one of the largest aftermarket wheel markets in the world?

Straight questions from someone who owns some Rota wheels, amongst those of many other manufacturers. No spin intended.


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> So, PAWI have their own accredited LAB which is capable of doing the testing to the recognised VIA standard.
> 
> That seems pretty clear and concise to me!!
> 
> ...


You're just repeating what has already been concluded. But this is not the answer to any of the questions being put forward.

The fact that they have the equipment to test does not mean that any products they manufacture automatically get the VIA stamp, the VIA stamp is (from what I'm aware of) is accredited once the WHEELS THEMSELVES have been tested in Japan, not the test machines they have in the factory.

Assuming the information from the transcribed phone calls are correct, there is another certificate they should have for the WHEELS, not just the machines.


----------



## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

After all this, it makes me feel better about wanting a set of Rota - Fighter Drift's


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

PS30-SB said:


> Can you comment on the fact that some Rota wheels ( made by PAWI ) carry the VIA testing logo - which is a Japanese standard - but do not appear to be officially imported and retailed in Japan?


I'm sure a few pages ago Miguel conceded that Rota wheels were sold in Japan to Tommy Kaira.



PS30-SB said:


> If Rota wheels are available in Japan, please can you tell me _where_? And if they are not ( as appears to be the case ) then why do they wear the VIA testing logo, and indeed _why_ are they not being sold in one of the largest aftermarket wheel markets in the world?


This may help answer your question;
Rota Wheels - TUNED - rides modified the way they should.



MSR said:


> MSR: All our wheels are manufactured the same way; they all go through rigorous testing methods that are actually beyond the standards set by the JWL and VIA of Japan,* which are requirements for wheels exported to Japan and some countries as well.*


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> You're just repeating what has already been concluded. But this is not the answer to any of the questions being put forward.
> 
> The fact that they have the equipment to test does not mean that any products they manufacture automatically get the VIA stamp, the VIA stamp is (from what I'm aware of) is accredited once the WHEELS THEMSELVES have been tested in Japan, not the test machines they have in the factory.
> 
> Assuming the information from the transcribed phone calls are correct, there is another certificate they should have for the WHEELS, not just the machines.


No, you misinterpret....

PAWI in effect have their own accredited VIA lab which is capable of testing AND issuing certification to the numbers on the certificate which has been posted.
Back in the day I worked in a lab that was accredited to test to various standards. In effect, its a delegation from the standard 'owner' that you may test and certify on their behalf. Generally this is done so that the standard 'owner' doesn't become swamped with products to test.

Im presuming this is the same thing thats going on here..Nothing dodgy about, it happens all the time.

TT


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

CrysAk said:


> You're just repeating what has already been concluded. But this is not the answer to any of the questions being put forward.
> 
> The fact that they have the equipment to test does not mean that any products they manufacture automatically get the VIA stamp, the VIA stamp is (from what I'm aware of) is accredited once the WHEELS THEMSELVES have been tested in Japan, not the test machines they have in the factory.
> 
> Assuming the information from the transcribed phone calls are correct, there is another certificate they should have for the WHEELS, not just the machines.


Read rotawheelsuk's post again...

It is not only the equipment that has been accredited, but the whole lab/test facility!

This is way ahead of companies who have to send their wheels to be tested by VIA.

PAWI have a licensed/accredited VIA test facility of their own. If VIA trust PAWI to test there own wheels, randomly inspected by them, then who are we to question their judgment?

The bulk of the VIA testing would be for their OEM wheels as many may be sold on the JDM. If you are testing your OEM products it makes sense to certify them all...

This must end any speculation on the quality of Rota wheels and PAWI products once and for all...:thumbsup:


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> Can you comment on the fact that some Rota wheels ( made by PAWI ) carry the VIA testing logo - which is a Japanese standard - but do not appear to be officially imported and retailed in Japan?
> 
> If Rota wheels are available in Japan, please can you tell me _where_? And if they are not ( as appears to be the case ) then why do they wear the VIA testing logo, and indeed _why_ are they not being sold in one of the largest aftermarket wheel markets in the world?
> 
> Straight questions from someone who owns some Rota wheels, amongst those of many other manufacturers. No spin intended.


From your profile it appears you are based in London. If so, WHY all the concern about outlets in Japan?? 

TT


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

Is it me,or are some of you missing the point. Rota wheels may indeed pass the standards set by VIA testing,but to assume they pass and then stamp them VIA in my mind is a clear attempt to deceive !


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

matt j said:


> I'm sure a few pages ago Miguel conceded that Rota wheels were sold in Japan to Tommy Kaira.


My personal impression was that this was _an exception that proved a rule_. The situation with Tommy Kaira may well have been that they imported them for their own use, adding them to cars that were themselves modified into a 'Tommy Kaira' product. By definition, it was a limited exercise - both in scope and quantity. It's not the same as Rota branded and/or PAWI manufactured wheels being on open and multiple sale in the Japanese market, and stocked by Japanese retailers. 



matt j said:


> This may help answer your question;
> Rota Wheels - TUNED - rides modified the way they should.


No, not really. I'm asking _where_ these wheels are retailed in Japan. What shops? Where? 

And if not, then _why_ not? In the grand scheme of things, it seems positively bizarre that Rota / PAWI would have not have a strong retail presence in the Japanese market ,with multiple distributors and retailers and even parallel-importers trying to muscle in on the market. If the testing is indeed legit ( I think the proper VIA testing question has not been answered yet ) then why not? 

There has to be a good reason. It's the elephant in the room.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

asiasi said:


> Is it me,or are some of you missing the point. Rota wheels may indeed pass the standards set by VIA testing,but to assume they pass and then stamp them VIA in my mind is a clear attempt to deceive !


WTF!!!!!! Are you reading the same thread I am????

They are LEGITIMATELY stamped VIA FFS!!!!

Why the hell would ANY accredited lab falsify test results?? The implications would be staggering.....
So what your saying is that PAWI have gone to the trouble of having their lab VIA accredited (which im sure is no small feat in itself) only to then falsify test results for their aftermarket wheel subsidiary???? Remember, they also supply OEM. 

So, clarify your point.....are you saying they falsify results on ALL their wheels(OEM AND aftermarket) or just the Rota brand.

Cant you see how silly your previous post sounds???

:chairshot

TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> My personal impression was that this was _an exception that proved a rule_. The situation with Tommy Kaira may well have been that they imported them for their own use, adding them to cars that were themselves modified into a 'Tommy Kaira' product. By definition, it was a limited exercise - both in scope and quantity. It's not the same as Rota branded and/or PAWI manufactured wheels being on open and multiple sale in the Japanese market, and stocked by Japanese retailers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup....i see goalposts moving here...

As to the testing, it HAS been answered....what dont you get exactly??

TT


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> From your profile it appears you are based in London. If so, WHY all the concern about outlets in Japan??


I'm not allowed to ask about the ( non? ) presence of Rota in the Japanese market, then?

It's a key point in this discussion. Can _you_ answer the question?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

PS30-SB said:


> My personal impression was that this was _an exception that proved a rule_. The situation with Tommy Kaira may well have been that they imported them for their own use, adding them to cars that were themselves modified into a 'Tommy Kaira' product. By definition, it was a limited exercise - both in scope and quantity. It's not the same as Rota branded and/or PAWI manufactured wheels being on open and multiple sale in the Japanese market, and stocked by Japanese retailers.


Phone them and ask, it seems the legitimate way to get answers.




PS30-SB said:


> No, not really. I'm asking _where_ these wheels are retailed in Japan. What shops? Where?


You're misquoting me, I was referring to the VIA accreditation not only being a requirement for the JDM but other countries as well.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> WTF!!!!!! Are you reading the same thread I am????
> 
> They are LEGITIMATELY stamped VIA FFS!!!!


You don't see the difference between JWL and VIA logos and standards then? You think they are the same thing?


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> You don't see the difference between JWL and VIA logos and standards then? You think they are the same thing?












What three letters are centre-left on that sheet??

TT


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

tarmac terror said:


> They are LEGITIMATELY stamped VIA FFS!!!!
> 
> 
> TT


If so where is the proof,they are not even sold in Japan FFS :chuckle:


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> You're just repeating what has already been concluded. But this is not the answer to any of the questions being put forward.
> 
> The fact that they have the equipment to test does not mean that any products they manufacture automatically get the VIA stamp, the VIA stamp is (from what I'm aware of) is accredited once the WHEELS THEMSELVES have been tested in Japan, not the test machines they have in the factory.
> 
> Assuming the information from the transcribed phone calls are correct, there is another certificate they should have for the WHEELS, not just the machines.


Quoted for the attention of matt j and Tarmac Terror. 

I think CrysAk understands the point, and you don't.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

CrysAk said:


> The fact that they have the equipment to test does not mean that any products they manufacture automatically get the VIA stamp, the VIA stamp is (from what I'm aware of) is accredited once the WHEELS THEMSELVES have been tested in Japan, not the test machines they have in the factory.
> 
> Assuming the information from the transcribed phone calls are correct, there is another certificate they should have for the WHEELS, not just the machines.


i can not believe this.... 

so whats the accreditation on the above certificate is for? it actually certifies that PAWI's machinery for testing complies with VIA, therefore it can self certify VIA instead of sending wheels to japan. 

tell me why did they certify/accredited PAWI's testing machinery/lab? was it because the machinery is made from japan OR it passed VIA standards?

it clearly stated on the certificate above that "JWTC RECOGNISES REPORTS FROM THIS LABORATORY PERFORMED ON THE EQUIPMENT INDICATED IN THE FOLLOWING OF THIS CERTIFICATE". is there something i cant understand with this phrase?


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

PS30-SB said:


> You don't see the difference between JWL and VIA logos and standards then? You think they are the same thing?



He must have missed those posts. 



Do I need to bold this, or are people so full of themselves and not being wrong that they have me blocked? I will be happy to admit I was wrong if it can be proven that PAWI does indeed have VIA registration for their wheels.



It's plain as day that to use the VIA logo a wheel must be tested by VIA and be registered with VIA. The fact that PAWI has the test equipment to test their wheels doesn't matter, if the wheel model isn't registered with VIA and tested by VIA, then that wheel should not have a VIA logo on it.


The certificate that has been posted simply means PAWI has testing equipment at their facility that meets the standards of JWL, it does not mean they can self-certify their wheels as VIA compliant. The VIA numbers are just acceptance numbers for that particular piece of testing equipment.


You guys can huff and puff all you want, but if ROTA does not have that VIA acceptance certificate for each wheel design then it's a clear case of them misusing the logo.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

> Rota Wheels - TUNED - rides modified the way they should.


This part was interesting...



> MSR: If you take a look at our product line, its more performance oriented cars. Even in the US, where we export our wheels to, our wheels are actually used in motorsport activities by our customers.


So Rota exports to US...THE biggest litigious society in the world. You'd have to be pretty sure of your products to go and play in THAT market now wouldn't you.

Some folks seem hung up on Rota and the Japanese market. I'll throw in an analogy to illustrate my point.
As a UK based musician who produces pop music, you do rather well in the UK market and sell shedloads of albums and do rather well thankyouverymuch!! Everyone who knows anything about music keeps telling you to try and break into the US music scene where the BIG BUCKS are. Now your particular style of music is popular in the US but the sector is saturated by LOADS of home-grown musicians/bands. You take their advice, go to the US and, despite heavy marketing and your finest music yet, you bomb. The US just wasnt ready for you.

So, with all the brands in Japan and the breadth of competition, why would you even bother. Japanese customers would, I believe, stick to the home-made wheel market REGARDLESS of how great a foreign made wheel was.

So, I see it as nothing sinister that Rota dont want to play in the Japanese market. Perhaps it makes more sense to explore other areas.....prudent business strategy and marketing would confirm this. I REALLY dont see why the Japanese market here is of SO much concern. 

By the argument made by some the logical conclusion is that for recognition, a foreign brand MUST sell their wares in Japan......err..dont think so. Thats just ludicrous!!!

TT


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Maybe the accreditation certificate refers to the test equipment used in the production of OEM wheels for the JDM market and PAWI are under agreement not to sell aftermarket wheels within Japan?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

yodookie said:


> He must have missed those posts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:chuckle::chuckle:

Jeez.....seriously!!!

Are you sitting in front of your screen with your hands over your eyes????? In fact, do you have eyes AT ALL (apologies in advance if you do not)???

Please listen closely..

"PAWI have been accredited by JWTC to test wheels and issue certification for VIA approval"

End of......

TT


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

PS30-SB said:


> You don't see the difference between JWL and VIA logos and standards then? You think they are the same thing?


What is so hard to understand that VIA have licensed/approved/accredited PAWI's lab as an extension of their own facility and authorised them to test wheels on behalf of VIA. The documentation is then supplied to VIA for registration of thr wheel.

Government departments often accredit labs as official test facilities to work on their behalf...This is no different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are legitimately tested and marked to both standards.
JWL is self accredited.
VIA is tested and accredited by their own accredited lab.

Can I ask what is the importance of selling/not selling their wheels into the Japanese market??

No doubt their OEM wheels are sold on various vehicles in Japan.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

this is simple. JWTC certified/accredited the machinery/laboratory passed and met their standards. same standards they have and do in japan. it meant they recognise the test as they recognised the machinery.

Aki on his another there are thousands of companies registered about the VIA and can not do that for him. hence still can not specifically say that PAWI/ROTA is not within the list.

so why are you questioning the authenticity and legitimacy of the proof they provided that PAWI'machinery is recognised by JWTC whilst the phone transcription does not have any hard evidence to prove that PAWI has not the right to have VIA certificate? is this fair, bias or immature conclusions?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Perhaps though the home of various wheel manufacturers is not the place to market your very similar design. Whereas the likes of Rays may not pursue this in multiple foreign markets, might be very different on their home turf!

Plus they may test to via standards, but perhaps would have to go through the more lengthy accreditation of individual styles to sell in Japan?

To me the argument over going to Waitrose or going to ASDA. Or buying budget trainers or branded. They do the same thing, but some people pay more for a certain brand. It's a free world and all that.


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe the accreditation certificate refers to the test equipment used in the production of OEM wheels for the JDM market and PAWI are under agreement not to sell aftermarket wheels within Japan?


Exactly


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe the accreditation certificate refers to the test equipment used in the production of OEM wheels for the JDM market and PAWI are under agreement not to sell aftermarket wheels within Japan?


NO. The certificate, along with RotawheelsUK's clarification, clearly shows that PAWI's LABORATORY has been accredited to *issue *certificates to wheels meeting VIA standard.

That means that if YOU knocked up a wheel in your shed, you could sent it to PAWI to have it tested and accredited (if it passed) to VIA standards.

PAWI have been delegated by JWTC to TEST and CERTIFY wheels.

TT


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

PS30-SB said:


> Quoted for the attention of matt j and Tarmac Terror.
> 
> I think CrysAk understands the point, and you don't.


Do you understand what an accredited attestation laboratory does and what it can therefore approve?


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## knighty84 (Jan 24, 2013)

Been a very interesting thread, obviously this discussion has gone further in depth than intended, having said that it backs up even further why I choose to keep running Rotas than the more expensive brands. To be honest I don't see how some people could even doubt the safety aspect on a company that's sell 100s of thousands of wheels a year anyway it simpley wouldn't be allowed


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> Plus they may test to via standards, but perhaps would have to go through the more lengthy accreditation of individual styles to sell in Japan?


You also miss the point Toni...

PAWI/ROTA/call them what you will can TEST to VIA standards AND ALSO ISSUE CERTIFICATION OF THE WHEELS CONFORMANCE TO THE STANDARD.

In effect, it IS THE SAME AS ROTA TAKING THEIR WHEELS TO JAPAN TO HAVE THEM TESTED.

THEY ARE the accredited facility!!!! They do not NEED to take their wheels to Japan for test as they are allowed (by JWTC) to test and accredit wheels THEMSELVES.

TT

TT


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

No I do understand that, running labs myself as I do

But in Aki's call it was clear VIA would want to test wheels themselves for the JDM. That's how I read it?



> Sakurai: You must first have an accredited institution here in Japan, test a representative wheel, physically here in Japan, only after which you are allowed to submit up to 4 wheel models for VIA registration on such a documentary basis, subject to the test results showing the wheels meet the standards.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> He must have missed those posts.
> 
> 
> It's plain as day that to use the VIA logo a wheel must be tested by VIA and be registered with VIA. The fact that PAWI has the test equipment to test their wheels doesn't matter, if the wheel model isn't registered with VIA and tested by VIA, then that wheel should not have a VIA logo on it.
> ...


you are making your own conclusion base on your understanding and all arguments without any given proof of your statement. 

how about you get the certification we need that PAWI/ROTA does not have the authority to mark VIA on their wheels and the accreditation of JWTC is NOT a valid authorization for the aggravated company? pls provide and i will happily concede. your first legal analysis of RAYS pursuing ROTA in japan is based on?

unless you are the owner of VIA and wrote all the legal policies about markings.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

tonigmr2 said:


> No I do understand that, running labs myself as I do
> 
> But in Aki's call it was clear VIA would want to test wheels themselves for the JDM. That's how I read it?


thats why they (JWTC) accredited PAWI's machinery, otherwise VIA will be stocked with thousands of wheels from around the world, not only from ROTA.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Not debating that! They obviously have accredited equipment and can test to the relevant standards. But actual VIA registration IN JAPAN appears to not be allowed via self-certification from what Aki is saying.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

tarmac terror said:


> NO. The certificate, along with RotawheelsUK's clarification, clearly shows that PAWI's LABORATORY has been accredited to *issue *certificates to wheels meeting VIA standard.
> 
> That means that if YOU knocked up a wheel in your shed, you could sent it to PAWI to have it tested and accredited (if it passed) to VIA standards.
> 
> ...



What part of what akasaka posted (and what others actually in Japan are saying) did you not understand? 


*If the wheel model is not registered and tested by VIA, then that wheel is not accepted as having VIA acceptance.*


That means that every wheel design that ROTA sells with the VIA logo on it should have an acceptance and registration certificate for it. If they have not done this, then it is clear misuse of the logo.


To answer other posters---Like I said ten or so pages ago-- If the wheel(with the fake logo) is not sold in Japan, then authorities have little standing for a lawsuit because JWL and VIA are JDM entities. They are not an international standard, although some buyers still do look for the QC marks. The only reason JDM standards have been brought up is someone questioned the legality of the logos on ROTAs wheels.


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

some comments from me....

I have owned two sets of ROTAs.

Purchased 2 sets in 2011 - 2 different designs of 18x10" for out R32 GTR Time Attack car. 1 set got damaged somehow and were replaced FOC by RareRims / ROTA. These wheels most likely monstered a kerb at 80+ mph. The set that replaced these (moved down to 17" again) are still going strong on the car, and the other set of 18's were sold.

I'm sure we'd all love a set of TE37s but in reality they are far too expensive, and relying on scene/hype to justify the price.

We run two track/race cars and both see some heavy kerb jumping.

we use the following wheels and find none better than the other.... infact, some 'brand' 'scene' wheels fair worse than the ROTAs

17" Kai Office by Keichi Tschiya - Modia (prob expensive but bought second hand for £400)
17" ADVAN RGs - damaged
17" RimStock Pro Race - like these a lot
17" ROTA
2 sets of 17" Ultralite (ATEC)


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Oh no!!!!!!

Another wheel manufacturer claiming to make wheels to JWL-VIA standards in Italy of all places...

TM WSP Italy wheels testing and certification


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe the accreditation certificate refers to the test equipment used in the production of OEM wheels for the JDM market and PAWI are under agreement not to sell aftermarket wheels within Japan?


it does not state on the certificate the limitation to sell in japan tazz, with all respect, otherwise it will be specified on the certificate that it is not applicable. as Sakurai said to Aki, JWL is for OEM, and VIA is for aftermarket.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

not all toni...

again here
https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html#a02


"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?
A2:	*VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council.* In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles.

As the VIA mark is a registered trademark, displaying the VIA mark without VIA registration means unauthorized use of a registered trademark, and hence is illegal."

it clearly states above that the VIA mark can be self stamped if he product complies with the verification test condcuted by the vehicle inspection and REGISTERED WITH THE COUNCIL (JWTC).


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> What part of what akasaka posted (and what others actually in Japan are saying) did you not understand?
> 
> 
> *If the wheel model is not registered and tested by VIA, then that wheel is not accepted as having VIA acceptance.*
> ...



give us hard proof as i said earlier, otherwise your arguments are all just pure nonsense.

and i will be more than happy to bow down and retract my opinions if you can justify with proof of your arguments. 

prove what you say.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

nightcrawler said:


> it does not state on the certificate the limitation to sell in japan tazz, with all respect, otherwise it will be specified on the certificate that it is not applicable. as Sakurai said to Aki, JWL is for OEM, and VIA is for aftermarket.


Fair enough but I do think Rota are taking a pretty bad rap here. Regardless of the fact that the logo they use is allegedly unauthorised, the company has been in business for 30 years which is something in itself. If we actually look at the facts, these wheels are not failing every 5 minutes but, reading some peoples views of them, you'd think they were.

I would think there are many modifications that have been carried out on forum members cars that make them much more dangerous than sticking a set of Rota's on but that's a discussion for another day.

Now unsubscribed.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Some folks seem hung up on Rota and the Japanese market. I'll throw in an analogy to illustrate my point.





tarmac terror said:


> So, with all the brands in Japan and the breadth of competition, why would you even bother. Japanese customers would, I believe, stick to the home-made wheel market REGARDLESS of how great a foreign made wheel was.


No, not true. Sorry. I don't want to be patronising, but you don't appear to know very much about Japan or the Japanese aftermarket.



tarmac terror said:


> So, I see it as nothing sinister that Rota dont want to play in the Japanese market. Perhaps it makes more sense to explore other areas.....prudent business strategy and marketing would confirm this. I REALLY dont see why the Japanese market here is of SO much concern.


It's a concern because it doesn't add up. Japan consumes - by scale - vast quantities of aftermarket wheels. I've exported UK-made wheels to Japan myself. I used to live and work in Japan, have been travelling back and forth for over 25 years now, and I still work in exports to Japan. I understand how the Japanese import, wholesale and retail markets work. Trust me on that, if nothing else. 



tarmac terror said:


> By the argument made by some the logical conclusion is that for recognition, a foreign brand MUST sell their wares in Japan......err..dont think so. Thats just ludicrous!!!


This is not about 'recognition'. In the case of Rota wheels and PAWI, it's actually quite _bizarre_ that they would have no market presence in Japan. It would not have to be PAWI themselves who financed a push into the Japanese wholesale and retail scene, as there would normally be any number of Japanese trading companies eager to wholesale and distribute them. As we know, PAWI can easily undercut the big and even medium to small Japanese aftermarket wheel producers on price ( their USA and UK retail prices are testament to that ) and the wheels they sell are attractive. If they _are_ fully compliant with Japanese testing standards ( the VIA testing in Japan question still remains ), then _why are they not on open sale in Japan_?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

nightcrawler said:


> not all toni...
> 
> again here
> https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html#a02
> ...


Does 'conducted by the vehicle council' mean NO self certification? I am not being awkward but what Aki is saying is you cannot test wheels yourself, plus you can only register once tested by via in Japan for the Japanese market.

Plus the only reason to have VIA on the wheels is to sell them in Japan, which we've already established is not the only market in the world.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

tonigmr2 said:


> Does 'conducted by the vehicle council' mean NO self certification? I am not being awkward but what Aki is saying is you cannot test wheels yourself, plus you can only register once tested by via in Japan for the Japanese market.
> 
> Plus the only reason to have VIA on the wheels is to sell them in Japan, which we've already established is not the only market in the world.


so whats the point of the accreditation above? and what does RECOGNISE on the same meant? 

Akis' phone conversation is not enough (IMHO) as much as i respect his effort... it was just pure questions and answers without direct policies. im sure there are more rules set in respect to this matter hence im asking yodookie for proof on his argument. 10 questions are not enough to substantiate the claim. i can ask 10 questions about the above certification. im sure you know where im coming from toni.

peace


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Adam Kindness said:


> I'm sure we'd all love a set of TE37s but in reality they are far too expensive, and relying on scene/hype to justify the price.


With all due respect, the costs of manufacturing the TE37s in Japan is one of the main factors in their high price. Throw in the exchange rate ( JPY was almighty until the recent quantative easing that has weakened it slightly ) and it just makes it exponentially more costly. Manufacturers based outside Japan, or Japanese companies part-manufacturing outside Japan, have a costing advantage over purely Japanese made products. The lower overheads in the Philippines are a major factor in the lower cost of the Rota wheels, quite apart from any manufacturing process differences ( cast vs forged, for example ).

Please don't point at _"scene / hype"_ with regard to the price of the TE37, as it has little or nothing to do with the way they are costed at source.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

matt j said:


> TM WSP Italy wheels testing and certification


Interesting read...



> How often do we think about a quality of a product when buying it, determine its objective sides for ourselves its technical level, evaluate its ability to benefit and meet our needs? The answer is always. We compare the price and the expected product quality, studying all possible information marked by the manufacturer on the wrapping and examining for different signs certifying the quality level. The manufacturer never misses an opportunity to remind a potential customers of the superiority of his product over the other analogical ones.
> 
> 
> It's interesting, wheather WSP Italy wheels are more attractivefore for customers, having a lot of sertificates and also meeting a lot of requirements, approved by many reliable organizations quality standards.
> ...


Another in-house accredited testing facility capable of testing to VIA?


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

tonigmr2 said:


> Does 'conducted by the vehicle council' mean NO self certification? I am not being awkward but what Aki is saying is you cannot test wheels yourself, plus you can only register once tested by via in Japan for the Japanese market


If you look at the WSP link you will see they have an accredited lab at their facility in Italy to allow them to test their wheels. This would mean they do not have to send wheels to Japan.

TM WSP Italy wheels testing and certification

"All tests are conducted in a fully equiped company's laboratory, which is certified by TUV and JWL VIA institutions. All TM WSP Italy wheels undergo following tests in accordance to the UN/ECE 124 european norms."

This is the same type of facility that PAWI claim to have, meaning they do not have to send wheels to Japan either.


The certificate lists and approves four types of test equipment to carry out the same tests as listed on the WSP site. The certificate also states "JWTC recognises test reports from this laboratory"


It would appear that PAWI have the same type of accredited facility as WSP....


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

TTOBES said:


> If you look at the WSP link you will see they have an accredited lab at their facility in Italy to allow them to test their wheels. This would mean they do not have to send wheels to Japan.
> 
> TM WSP Italy wheels testing and certification
> 
> ...



i concur


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Absolutely just trying to understand it myself!

There's no argument in my mind they have the equipment and expertise/accreditation to test to VIA standards. The fact they make wheels for OEM cars destined for Japan (because VIA appear to trust OEM manufacturers) also seems fine.

I think we are almost there it's just not clear whether on aftermarket wheels ....
A) VIA accept self accreditation for the Japanese market
Which impacts on
B) are they sold in Japan?
Which impacts on
C) are they VIA registered which gives the right to have VIA on the wheels.

I realise the Japanese market is not the crux of the question, but we are talking about a world recognised quality standard and usage in worldwide markets as a recognised mark. 

Easy way is to get a VIA cert of wheel registration for one of their styles then everyone will shut up.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

TTOBES said:


> The certificate also states "JWTC recognises test reports from this laboratory"



JWL compliant testing yes, VIA no.


You guys keep grasping at straws here. Either the specifc wheels have been tested by VIA and registered, or they have not.

Lets get the information straight from the source, shall we?


VIA Registration of Aluminum Wheel



"Q1--(2) About the VIA mark--
Only products that undergo VIA registration may be marked with the VIA Mark. 

The VIA mark is a registered trademark of Vehicle Inspection, and it is possible to affix it only to products registered with the Council.

Q2--Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?

----VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles.

As the VIA mark is a registered trademark, displaying the VIA mark without VIA registration means unauthorized use of a registered trademark, and hence is illegal."




So? What now?


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> JWL compliant testing yes, VIA no.
> 
> 
> You guys keep grasping at straws here. Either the specifc wheels have been tested by VIA and registered, or they have not.
> ...



yaaaaaaawwwnnnn.....

get your hard evidence pls to support your claim. we are in completely same world but different world... eeeeeek! cant understand english now

when you get your proof, i will retract and concede.


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

Just to follow up on myself a little bit---

"Q7: If we have approved testing equipment ourselves, can we display the VIA mark on products that have passed the tests in the relevant testing equipment?
A7: Simply because a product has passed an internal inspection test does not mean it can be labeled with a VIA mark.

Application for VIS registration should be filed with documents attached with results of evaluation (test reports) using approved and registered testing equipment, and then only products that pass the verification test at Vehicle Inspection and in documentary judgment, and which are then are registered with VIA may be labeled with the VIA mark on the light alloy disc wheel.




"Q10: If VIA markings is a requirement on wheels to be sold outside Japan, since no Japanese standard is applicable therein, would it be acceptable to sell them with VIA markings without an actual VIA registration?
A10: VIA marks can only be used on products registered with VIA on products that are sold for the after-market in Japan.

Even if a product is sold in a country outside Japan, the VIA marking cannot be displayed on products that are not registered with VIA."



Huh.., say it ain't so?


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

nightcrawler said:


> yaaaaaaawwwnnnn.....
> 
> get your hard evidence pls support your claim. we are in completely same world but different world...
> 
> when you get your proof, i will retract and concede.




I just gave you your proof.

Where's the VIA registration?


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

*YAWN*

Bored now......point MORE than proven.

Those that dont 'get it' never will so I see no point in wasting effort on this. 

TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Adam Kindness said:


> some comments from me....
> 
> I have owned two sets of ROTAs.
> 
> ...


Oh no Adam...you're going straight to hell

:chuckle::chuckle:

TT


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

tarmac terror said:


> *YAWN*
> 
> Bored now......point MORE than proven.
> 
> ...



You mean the point that you don't care if the wheels are using marks illegally?


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> I just gave you your proof.
> 
> Where's the VIA registration?


we can not have the same evidence but having different interpretations.

yaaaaaawwwnn....

unless you can get the certication against the company you are agravating.

good luck sir :thumbsup:


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> You mean the point that you don't care if the wheels are using marks illegally?


yaaaawwwwnnnn....

supporting document to prove that? then come back and i will say sorry to you. but for now, ill consider it IMATURE AND WITHOUT MERITS.


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

nightcrawler said:


> yaaaawwwwnnnn....
> 
> supporting document to prove that? then come back and i will say sorry to you. but for now, ill consider it IMATURE AND WITHOUT MERITS.



What part of the English that I quoted directly from the JWTC site did you not understand? What part of the Japanese working at VIA never hearing of PAWI or ROTA before do you not understand?


I requote--"Q7: If we have approved testing equipment ourselves, can we display the VIA mark on products that have passed the tests in the relevant testing equipment?
A7: Simply because a product has passed an internal inspection test does not mean it can be labeled with a VIA mark.

Application for VIS registration should be filed with documents attached with results of evaluation (test reports) using approved and registered testing equipment, and then only products that pass the verification test at Vehicle Inspection (VIA) and in documentary judgment, and which are then registered with VIA may be labeled with the VIA mark on the light alloy disc wheel.



We have a ROTA distributor in this thread. Surely they would know who to contact to get a copy of a cert.(they must have plenty of time on their hands, digging up things that happened five years ago), and surely someone wants to clear ROTAs name here. Right?


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

yodookie said:


> What part of the English that I quoted directly from the JWTC site did you not understand? What part of the Japanese working at VIA never hearing of PAWI or ROTA before do you not understand?


maybe I don't understand English at all....




yodookie said:


> We have a ROTA distributor in this thread. Surely they would know who to contact to get a copy of a cert.(they must have plenty of time on their hands, digging up things that happened five years ago), and surely someone wants to clear ROTAs name here. Right?




ROTA proved it already, by hard evidence and by their testimonies.




or maybe the hereunder quote applies to you? im sure their testimonies are in English and so as the Accreditation with JAPANESE writings.



yodookie said:


> What part of the English that I quoted directly from the JWTC site did you not understand? What part of the Japanese working at VIA never hearing of PAWI or ROTA before do you not understand?



its time to PROVE your point and prove them WRONG. peace


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

^^ ironic is it not?

now I know what IRONY means....

im learning English now....


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

yodookie said:


> What part of the English that I quoted directly from the JWTC site did you not understand? What part of the Japanese working at VIA never hearing of PAWI or ROTA before do you not understand?


Probably the ambiguous part.




yodookie said:


> I requote--"Q7: If we have approved testing equipment ourselves, can we display the VIA mark on products that have passed the tests in the relevant testing equipment?
> A7: Simply because a product has passed an internal inspection test does not mean it can be labeled with a VIA mark.


Nor does it state that it cannot if accreditated facilities are utilised and witnessed testing takes place.



yodookie said:


> Application for VIS registration should be filed with documents attached with results of evaluation (test reports) using approved and registered testing equipment, and then only products that pass the verification test at Vehicle Inspection (VIA) and in documentary judgment, and which are then registered with VIA may be labeled with the VIA mark on the light alloy disc wheel.


Submission of test reports?
Using who's 'approved and registered testing equipment'?
Please clarify what the verification test actually tests because 'in documentary judgement' would just suggest they're reviewing the reports from outside laboratories?

BUT aren't you claiming that the testing could only be carried out in Japan at their own facilities, surely if that is the case they know their facilities are accredited and it would be them producing the report for the manufacturer?


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

im surprised ROTA/PAWI has not asked to delete/lock this thread for slandering and libelous acts. the agravated company being fraudulent and illegaly stamping VIA and others malicious accusation and presumptions. this should be looked at for protection of ROTA/PAWI's rights, its distributors, suppliers, partners and other businesses that involves its production especially its CUSTOMERS


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> (BTW he was NOT the same guy I spoke to earlier this week.)
> 
> In preparation for the telephone call, I reviewed the website again, and found that there are two ways to register for the VIA logo with JWTC ***8211; actual physical testing of every wheel made by a manufacturer, by VIA, and then by documentation, on equipment that has been certified by JWTC.
> https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon2.html
> ...




Thanks Aki. I do appreciate the time you have been putting in to try and clarify the specifics by which JWTC certifies wheels for the Japanese market. 

Seems to me the best way to ascertain if PAWI / ROTA have VIA Certification for specific wheel designs is to actually go there and ask to see physical copies of documentation. 

*Automotive Light Alloy Wheel Test Council*, 114-0003, Kita-ku, Tokyo, Toshima 7-26-2
Japan Vehicle Inspection Association in Office 
TEL 03-5902-3455 FAX 03-5902-3411

Assuming they're not closed for all of Golden week I intend to give up a day next week (Tuesday or Wednesday) and visit (If they are not open during the holiday period then I will go the week after) & shall take a copy of the testing certificate posted on this thread to ask specifically what in this specific case it entitles the manufacturer to do, in other words, is the manufacturer on THIS certificate entitled to self-certify VIA?

Up till now as I have understood it, every after-market wheel design that carries the VIA mark must be tested by the Automotive Light Alloy Wheel Test Council, in the various ways that Aki has also confirmed following his conversation with JWTC staff as detailed above.

But without exception when VIA is stamped on a wheel there should be certificate copies available to confirm the design is indeed registered. So I will search for all the PAWI certificates that exist, take copies / clear photographs of any that I do find and post them. For good measure I will also check for a few copies of certificates pertaining to RAYS designs, or other known designs for comparison and where possible take other pictures of the facility, etc.

If in the meantime RotawheelsUK can produce PAWI copies of VIA / JWTC certificates for specific wheel designs carrying the logo / marks this would be most useful for resolving the situation at hand as clearly as possible so this dialogue can reach a distinct & completed conclusion.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Thanks Aki. I do appreciate the time you have been putting in to try and clarify the specifics by which JWTC certifies wheels for the Japanese market.
> 
> Seems to me the best way to ascertain if PAWI / ROTA have VIA Certification for specific wheel designs is to actually go there and ask to see physical copies of documentation.
> 
> ...


And when you find them........what????

You're gambling that a wheel manufacturer with over 30yrs trading which SUPPLIES TO OEM, which has an approved testing laboratory AND a certificate of accreditation is pissing about with wheel markings?????

EXACTLY what would they have to gain by fraudulently marking their wheels if they are not even in the Japanese market where the VIA stamp has any meaning??? 
They are entitled to mark their wheels with a VIA logo as they have the correct testing facilities AND the authority to issue certification. I really dont get which parts of that statement are hard to grasp....


I can see some big helpings of...










on the cards.

You may need a (rather large)








(apologies that the fork does not have the required VIA logo)


TT


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

yodookie said:


> JWL compliant testing yes, VIA no.


I will summarise the entire thing for you....


From your source....

VIA Registration of Aluminum Wheel



"(1) About JWL and JWL-T marks 
Concerning light alloy disc wheels Concerning light alloy disc wheels, 
which are maintenance parts, to ensure quality and safety, the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (MLIT) has stipulated “Technical Standards for Light Alloy Disc Wheels for Passenger Cars” for wheels for passenger cars, and “Technical Standards for Light Alloy Disc Wheels for Trucks And Buses” for wheels for trucks and buses, and stipulate the requirements that must be fulfilled for quality and performance. 

For these technical standards, it is determined that auto manufacturers and wheel manufacturers conduct testing by themselves, and for products that conform to the standards (self-accreditation), markings should be placed on parts that can be easily checked in the state where JWL (for passenger cars) or JWL-T (for trucks and buses) marks is mounted on the vehicle."


From the above the MLIT has laid down a set of standards that a manufacturer can comply with(self accreditation) and is then entitled to display the 'JLW' mark on his product.




"(2) About the VIA mark 
As confirmation of compliance under Paragraph (1) above with technical standards, this is voluntary accreditation, and safety of quality is relevant to human life so the Japan Light Alloy Automotive Wheel Testing Council (the “Council”) has set up a registration system for light-alloy disc wheels for domestic market sales (for the after-market) from the third party standpoint (the “VIA registration”). 

For registration, verification test is conducted based on technical standards provided by MLIT, and judgment and assessment in accordance with the Japan Light Alloy Automotive Wheel Testing Council Regulations (the “Council Regulations”) are performed, and products that comply with the Council Regulations are registered. 

Only products that undergo VIA registration may be marked with the VIA Mark. 

The Council consists of three organizations, that is, “Japan Aluminum Association (JAA)”, an organization relevant to manufacturing of light-alloy disc wheels, “Nippon Auto Parts Aftermarket Committee (NAPAC) JAWA Division,” an organization relevant to sales thereof, and “Japan Vehicle Inspection Association” (“Vehicle Inspection”) , a third party testing institution, and testing and registration operations are carried out by Vehicle Inspection."


The JWTC is made up of the 'JAA', the 'NAPAC' and the 'VIA' who are the testing authority. 
The certificate from PAWI is issued by the JWTC and states "JWTC recognises test reports from this laboratory". As the VIA is an integral part of the JWTC it would be fair to assume that the VIA will also 'recognise test reports from this laboratory'.
As no reports are required for the JLA mark and the equipment tests and lab accreditation were carried out by the VIA, it would also be fair to assume that it is VIA test reports they will accept'



If you look at the WSP link you will see they have an accredited lab at their facility in Italy to allow them to test their wheels. This would mean they do not have to send wheels to Japan.

TM WSP Italy wheels testing and certification

"All tests are conducted in a fully equiped company's laboratory, which is certified by TUV and JWL VIA institutions. All TM WSP Italy wheels undergo following tests in accordance to the UN/ECE 124 european norms."

This is the same type of facility that PAWI claim to have, meaning they do not have to send wheels to Japan either.

The certificate lists and approves four types of test equipment to carry out the same tests as listed on the WSP site. The certificate also states "JWTC recognises test reports from this laboratory"

It would appear that PAWI have the same type of accredited facility as WSP....




This would allow PAWI , as an accredited extension of VIA, to produce the required test reports and documentation to be sent to VIA for product registration. Once registered PAWI are entitled to display the VIA mark on that particular product.


"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?

A2: VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles.

As the VIA mark is a registered trademark, displaying the VIA mark without VIA registration means unauthorized use of a registered trademark, and hence is illegal."


This does not apply as the testing was carried out by an accredited VIA laboratory and the product is registered with the VIA.



"Q7: If we have approved testing equipment ourselves, can we display the VIA mark on products that have passed the tests in the relevant testing equipment? 

A7: Simply because a product has passed an internal inspection test does not mean it can be labeled with a VIA mark. 

Application for VIS registration should be filed with documents attached with results of evaluation (test reports) using approved and registered testing equipment, and then only products that pass the verification test at Vehicle Inspection and in documentary judgment, and which are then are registered with VIA may be labeled with the VIA mark on the light alloy disc wheel."


This does not apply as the testing was carried out by an accredited laboratory and the product is registered with the VIA.



"Q10: If VIA markings is a requirement on wheels to be sold outside Japan, since no Japanese standard is applicable therein, would it be acceptable to sell them with VIA markings without an actual VIA registration? 

A10: VIA marks can only be used on products registered with VIA on products that are sold for the after-market in Japan. 

Even if a product is sold in a country outside Japan, the VIAs marking cannot be displayed on products that are not registered with VIA. 

The VIA mark is a trademark of Vehicle Inspection, and penalties are applicable for unauthorized use."


This does not apply as the testing was carried out by an accredited laboratory and the product is registered with the VIA.




Some of akasaksR33's conversation with JWTC...

1) Sakurai: the JWL and VIA standards apply to EACH wheel model. The JWL standard is really an OEM standard, the VIA standard is for aftermarket, but it’s important to remember that each standard is applied to each wheel model. And, these logos are applicable ONLY for the Japan Domestic Market.

Sakurai: there are literally thousands of wheels registered with us, so it would be “taihen” (= royal pain in the ass). I’m sorry but I won't check for you.

--Possibly why the didn't recall the PAWI or Rota name imediately.

3) Me: So self-certification is not possible for JWL?

Sakurai: It’s possible, but it must be pursuant to the standards we have. And again, the JWL logo is meant primarily for the OEMs for domestic sale. We trust the OEMs will maintain the standards.

--PAWI are OEM manufacturers and are therefore trusted to 'maintain thr standards??

4) Me: What about self certification for VIA? Isn't it possible to self-certify if you have equipment that meets your standards?

Sakurai: You must first have an accredited institution here in Japan, test a representative wheel, physically here in Japan, only after which you are allowed to submit up to 4 wheel models for VIA registration on such a documentary basis, subject to the test results showing the wheels meet the standards.

--The subject of accredited labs in manufacturers facilities had not come up before aka made this call which may be why 'accredited institutions' outside Japan were not mentioned. It is also possible that both PAWI and WSP follow the above method to register their product with VIA.



I had hoped that rotawheelsuk may have arrived with the registration documentation for the Rota Grid wheel by now...

Oh well, hope you enjoyed the read


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

nightcrawler said:


> im surprised ROTA/PAWI has not asked to delete/lock this thread for slandering and libelous acts.


We have received no complaints about this thread or it's content. Maybe the powers that be at PAWI have better things to do with their time than worry about internet discussions?:chuckle:


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

If I do find confirmation PAWI's replicas of RAYS wheels are indeed VIA certified , then I will photograph them to display online and be the first to admit I was wrong and put them up for all to see, so that the certification carried on their wheels is never questioned again and this matter can be put to rest once and for all. 
In such instance I would also write a formal apology here. 

In the event I cannot find any such certification for their wheel designs, then I would report my (lack of) findings as conclusive.

My intention is not to only search for certification myself but ask the staff there to check & confirm so I cannot possibly miss anything. 

In light of what I have been accused of by several people on this thread including RotawheelsUK, I feel a need to ensure the facts are made absolutely clear as to whether or not PAWI / Rota really have been given certification for the wheels that carry VIA / JWL markings. 

The only way to be sure is to go there and check. Clearly such certificates will be catalogued if they exist so this should not be a difficult task to complete.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Damn guys, I go away for a few hours, and what I thought was helpful, seemed to further confuse some people. That was not my intention. Was my writing unclear?

For TT, Matt J, Ron and others - the reason I asked about the possibility of self certification for VIA, using JWTC equipment, was precisely because of what someone pointed out - it would be a mess to have to test each wheel in Japan. It would be logical, if the VIA certification could be outsourced to each place with JWTC certified equipment.

However, and this is what I wrote earlier - SAKURAI SPECIFICALLY TOLD ME THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE JWTC CERTIFIED EQUIPMENT (as Ron's Certificate demonstrated) DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PRODUCTS ARE AUTOMATICALLY VIA CERTIFIED. REGISTRATION *WITH* JWTC MUST BE DONE, before a wheel is deemed VIA certified.

Further, a MINIMUM of 1 wheel model out of 5 MUST BE TESTED BY VIA, IN JAPAN. The REMAINING 4 can be certified by a documentation process, and this is the reason you would want JWTC certified equipment - so you could do your own testing, and SEND THE DOCUMENTED RESULTS (instead of wheels each time) TO JWTC - for verification, and then registration.

Remember, before you can even get to the step to register to get the VIA certification, you either have to 1) have each wheel model you sell tested in Japan, or 2) have 1 wheel model tested in Japan, then use your JWTC certified equipment to submit documented evidence for 4 other models.

IN EITHER SITUATION, you cannot affix the VIA logo, WITHOUT REGISTRATION WITH JWTC. 

Let me state that again. You cannot self certify for VIA. You can only display VIA, AFTER REGISTRATION at JWTC.

This is why, if ROTA could provide us with a copy of the REGISTRATION AT JWTC (which Sakurai told me they SHOULD HAVE if they DID REGISTER with JWTC), THEN, and only THEN, would we have proof that ROTA can legitimately display the VIA logo. (Personally I think what Miguel is going to do is not going to be easy...)

The English translated website is not the most clear. I would recommend that someone get another Japanese reader besides me to translate, if necessary, which could clarify any ambiguities. However, what I just stated above (and as quoted by some of you), is clear, and confirmed by my conversation with Sakurai.

so to repeat myself - not sure why people are confused on this - just because JWTC certifies your equipment, does not mean you are allowed to affix the VIA logo on your wheel. While that is an important element, the final step, registration WITH JWTC, is essential.


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

Could not find PAWI/Rota :nervous:

JAWA | Objective

@Aki -That was my understanding,thanks for clarifying again,got to love the Rota fan boys :chuckle:


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

For those who wish to read a simpler version of the above.

1) based on my conversation today WITH JWTC:

2) the VIA logo CANNOT be displayed UNLESS your wheel has passed certain tests, AND the results have been REGISTERED with JWTC.

3) If you have a JWTC certified laboratory, GREAT!

4) But you cannot self certify for VIA. Even if the Italians say they do.

5) Physical testing of wheels MUST be done IN JAPAN for VIA certification.

6) If you have a JWTC certified lab, then you only need send 1 in 5 wheel models to Japan, for physical testing. You can test the rest yourself, but then those reports need to be sent to JWTC.

7) Manufacturers should have copies of the VIA Certification.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Thanks for explaining again, Aki. I'm thinking if I present the certificate (for verification) given by RotawheelsUK to show their testing equipment meets JWTC's requirements, hopefully JWTC's copy of this will be together with all copies of other PAWI certification they may have...

I think it's important to make every effort I can now get to the bottom of this.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

asiasi said:


> Could not find PAWI/Rota :nervous:
> 
> JAWA | Objective


someone's going to jump all over you, as this was pointed out before.. and all the members appear to be Japanese companies.

Except for Hankook (it's their Japanese subsidiary though).

oh, and O.Z. (again their Japanese subsidiary...)

Ok never mind this post.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Miguel - Newera said:


> If I do find confirmation PAWI's replicas of RAYS wheels are indeed VIA certified , then I will photograph them to display online and be the first to admit I was wrong and put them up for all to see, so that the certification carried on their wheels is never questioned again and this matter can be put to rest once and for all.
> 
> In such instance I would also write a formal apology here.


It would be prudent to also check the details for WSP Italy as they also make the same claims: and then feedback how you and Aki managed to circumvent data protection to post such informative posts; that would be an interesting legal issue, as Aki is the resident legal expert, perhaps he can shed some light on it?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

matt j said:


> It would be prudent to also check the details for WSP Italy as they also make the same claims: and then feedback how you and Aki managed to circumvent data protection to post such informative posts; that would be an interesting legal issue, as Aki is the resident legal expert, perhaps he can shed some light on it?












:chuckle:

TT


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Oh and while you're at it Miguel, here's a couple more, all claiming VIA via in-house accreditation...

XXR Wheels
About Us

SSR Wheels
Stamford Sport Wheels Receives Prestigious TUV Cert Confirmation and VIA Accreditation -- re> CHARLOTTE, N.C., April 6 /PRNewswire/ --

K3 Projekt Wheels
http://www.k3projekt.com/VIA Test Certificate.pdf


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

matt j said:


> Oh and while you're at it Miguel, here's a couple more, all claiming VIA via in-house accreditation...
> 
> XXR Wheels
> About Us
> ...


Christ..fake wheels EVERYWHERE!!!!

Clearly VIA need to get off their arses and prosecute the whole damn lot of them.....

TT


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

matt j said:


> Oh and while you're at it Miguel, here's a couple more, all claiming VIA via in-house accreditation...
> 
> XXR Wheels
> About Us
> ...


cant believe these wheel manufacturers including PAWI/ROTA got away with such stamping


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Maybe the powers that be at PAWI have better things to do with their time than worry about internet discussions?:chuckle:


maybe you are right sir


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

nightcrawler said:


> cant believe these wheel manufacturers including PAWI/ROTA got away with such stamping


They are all legit, that's why.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> They are all legit, that's why.


Now you're talking tripe Andy :chuckle:

HOW can they be legit when they dont send their wheels to Japan for testing...dont be ridiculous man!!!

Go and have a lie down....

:chuckle::chuckle:

TT


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

tarmac terror said:


> Now you're talking tripe Andy :chuckle:
> 
> HOW can they be legit when they dont send their wheels to Japan for testing...dont be ridiculous man!!!
> 
> ...


Of course, Japan, the birthplace of the wheel..:thumbsup:


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> Of course, Japan, the birthplace of the wheel..:thumbsup:


makes sense now... thats why these non-japan base wheel manufacturers have the same accreditation as they are all not japan-born


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

I think where we stand now (bit of a grey area) is to see if rota has registered each of their wheels (size? offset?) with VIA? Sending each physical wheel (as some people think) to be tested and then stamped with VIA is just crazy, why else would they have a jwl/via accredited testing facility?

Rota have already said that their tests go above and beyond those set. Even the link posted by mattj about the wsp wheels, they state they go above the requirement. 

The jawa members list only brings up japanese companies. What about the others that state they are via compliant like wsp? Wsp is also tuv (probably the best) certified as well as other independent organisations (uk) so I doubt they mess about trying to cut corners as with rota/pawi who produce countless oem.

It's just like what's stated earlier, the goal posts just keep on moving. Where does it stop? With via? Who cares about them anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of testimonials that can attest to the quality/reliability.

Where is miguel's sidekick matty32? I thought he would be all over this thread as he always seems to be some jdm guru. :thumbsup:


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

TTOBES said:


> This would allow PAWI , as an accredited extension of VIA, to produce the required test reports and documentation to be sent to VIA for product registration. Once registered PAWI are entitled to display the VIA mark on that particular product.


I think we do get the point....

Perhaps I should have highlited it....

Bugger, I'm quoting myself now.....Suppose it's OK as long as I don't start another argument with myself.....opcorn:


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

Some of you guys are acting pretty childish. Really? We need pictures of humble pie and forks? What are you, twelve? 


The issue with VIA isn't the testing, it's the fact that ROTA very well maybe illegally using the logo on their wheels. I don't suppose you guys can be assed about that though, seeing as you bought their copy rip-off designs in the first place. :thumbsup:


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

From what I've read, rota can test the wheels to the specification themselves and send their results to Japan for verification, as a matter of interest though are rota wheels tuv approved?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

yodookie said:


> Some of you guys are acting pretty childish. Really? We need pictures of humble pie and forks? What are you, twelve?
> 
> 
> The issue with VIA isn't the testing, it's the fact that ROTA very well maybe illegally using the logo on their wheels. I don't suppose you guys can be assed about that though, seeing as you bought their copy rip-off designs in the first place. :thumbsup:


There does appear to be an emerging divide here. People from Japan/lived in Japan etc seem really cheese off about the whole thing, the rest of the world don't give a flying hoot.

On the subject of childish, how childish is it to portray something as illegal until proved legitimate? That smacks as 'can't be assed'. I'll just shoot my mouth off and hope for the best. Well, let him have it.


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## AlexJ (Apr 3, 2003)

yodookie said:


> Some of you guys are acting pretty childish. Really? We need pictures of humble pie and forks? What are you, twelve?
> 
> 
> The issue with VIA isn't the testing, it's the fact that ROTA very well maybe illegally using the logo on their wheels. I don't suppose you guys can be assed about that though, seeing as you bought their copy rip-off designs in the first place. :thumbsup:


What is childish is stamping your feet and shouting with your fingers stuck in your ears. Casting unfounded aspersions about competitors products. Disengenuously claiming you are earnestly acting in the consumers interest. It's childish to assume that industry isn't built on taking successful products changing them just enough to not be actionable, changing the manufacturing process to reduce costs while maintaining a legal standard of product that is still acceptable to the customer and undercut the original. In fact that's what Japanese industry was built on. It is childish if not racist to assume that something manufactured in the philipines or china is inherently inferior and probably dangerous.

Anyway I've been researching these Jawas and they sound a right dodgy bunch, apparently they have " a reputation for swindling, as they had a penchant for selling old equipment such as outdated faulty droids to moisture farmers. However, they were extremely passive beings, and hardly put up any resistance to colonists of their planet unlike the other natives the Sand people, instead seeing foreigners as an excellent business opportunity." Maybe different type of Jawa.


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## Addicted2Boost (Nov 15, 2007)

AlexJ said:


> What is childish is stamping your feet and shouting with your fingers stuck in your ears. Casting unfounded aspersions about competitors products. Disengenuously claiming you are earnestly acting in the consumers interest. It's childish to assume that industry isn't built on taking successful products changing them just enough to not be actionable, changing the manufacturing process to reduce costs while maintaining a legal standard of product that is still acceptable to the customer and undercut the original. In fact that's what Japanese industry was built on. It is childish if not racist to assume that something manufactured in the philipines or china is inherently inferior and probably dangerous.


:thumbsup:

too bad there isnt a "like" button for alot of these posts


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

I've always felt that the Japanese were more innovators than inventors and, for that, they can't really be faulted as they have made improvements to many products but reading many posts in this thread, you would think that they had never copied anything or anyone and they are blameless victims. Have a watch of this little video as it made me smile a bit. Obviously it has it's own slant but doesn't everyone?


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## AlexJ (Apr 3, 2003)

One of Nissan's (DAT at that time) first cars was very similar to the Austin seven. There are a few stories but one goes that they licensed it, another that they didn't license it and Mr Austin had one brought to England and found nothing actionable and left it at that.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

VIA Registration of Aluminum Wheel
Seems some people might have some explaining to do if questioned...


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

AlexJ said:


> What is childish is stamping your feet and shouting with your fingers stuck in your ears. Casting unfounded aspersions about competitors products. Disengenuously claiming you are earnestly acting in the consumers interest. It's childish to assume that industry isn't built on taking successful products changing them just enough to not be actionable, changing the manufacturing process to reduce costs while maintaining a legal standard of product that is still acceptable to the customer and undercut the original. In fact that's what Japanese industry was built on. It is childish if not racist to assume that something manufactured in the philipines or china is inherently inferior and probably dangerous.
> 
> Anyway I've been researching these Jawas and they sound a right dodgy bunch, apparently they have " a reputation for swindling, as they had a penchant for selling old equipment such as outdated faulty droids to moisture farmers. However, they were extremely passive beings, and hardly put up any resistance to colonists of their planet unlike the other natives the Sand people, instead seeing foreigners as an excellent business opportunity." Maybe different type of Jawa.


U MAD?


Maybe you should be the one to look at who is shouting with fingers stuck in their ears. I pulled the VIA regulations straight off the JWTC website in plain English, read it yourself.


What IS unfounded is PAWI's use of the VIA logo without that wheel being tested and registered with VIA. All I (and others) want to see is proof of a VIA registration for a particular wheel.


ETA: I never once made a racist claim, don't try and put words in my mouth.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

matt j said:


> VIA Registration of Aluminum Wheel
> Seems some people might have some explaining to do if questioned...



Keyword-- _Personal
_

Is PAWI a person?


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## AlexJ (Apr 3, 2003)

yodookie said:


> U MAD?
> 
> 
> Maybe you should be the one to look at who is shouting with fingers stuck in their ears. I pulled the VIA regulations straight off the JWTC website in plain English, read it yourself.
> ...


Not mad, my mother had me tested. Lol though i reserve the right to take offense over you questioning my mental health.

While i quoted your post i was also responding to the thread, you aren't a trader either so it should be clear some of the remarks were not directed at you. You said people were childish on one side, i gave examples of how i thought others were on the other side.


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

yodookie said:


> U MAD?
> 
> 
> Maybe you should be the one to look at who is shouting with fingers stuck in their ears. I pulled the VIA regulations straight off the JWTC website in plain English, read it yourself.
> ...


Bud... Don't want to appear to be racist or anything even close, but go back and actually read some of the previous posts and think about the content before reacting in another bullshite post....

If PAWI have actually registered one of their products with VIA, where does that leave you...?

Probably where I am if they haven't...

As they said....

The situation is fluid "I'm up shit creek without a paddle...":mad


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

wow, this thread has turned pathetic the last few days...

I can't believe that the ones moaning about lack of evidence are now moaning that evidence is being pursued ... 

There seems to be a divide as to what the 2 groups interpret the certificate as

1. that they can test to VIA standard
2. that they can brand their wheels with VIA


and THIS is exactly what is being looked into to clarify the situation, so let's all try to keep the toys int he pram until this gets looked into yea?#

Either way, the end result will change a lot of peoples perception of ROTA.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

yodookie said:


> The issue with VIA isn't the testing, it's the fact that ROTA very well maybe illegally using the logo on their wheels.


:chuckle: You crack me up...you really do!! 
You seem so entrenched in your viewpoint that you fail (or don't want) to see the use of the logo IS indeed legal by the very fact that PAWI are an authorised TEST facility. THEY test the wheels and issue certification (which THEN allows the logo to be used).
I'm really struggling to see what part of that you don't get. Seriously....spell it out for me as I'm genuinely puzzled!!



yodookie said:


> What IS unfounded is PAWI's use of the VIA logo without that wheel being tested and registered with VIA. All I (and others) want to see is proof of a VIA registration for a particular wheel.


Again, I refer you to the above.....



AlexJ said:


> Anyway I've been researching these Jawas and they sound a right dodgy bunch, apparently they have " a reputation for swindling, as they had a penchant for selling old equipment such as outdated faulty droids to moisture farmers. However, they were extremely passive beings, and hardly put up any resistance to colonists of their planet unlike the other natives the Sand people, instead seeing foreigners as an excellent business opportunity." Maybe different type of Jawa.


:chuckle:I like their cool little brown hoodies...Wonder if they prefer Rota or Rays??


TT


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> Either way, the end result will change a lot of peoples perception of ROTA.


Now THAT, I can't argue with......:clap:

TT


----------



## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

CrysAk said:


> Either way, the end result will change a lot of peoples perception of ROTA.


I can't tell if you mean that in a positive or negative matter? :nervous:


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Have a watch of this little video as it made me smile a bit. Obviously it has it's own slant but doesn't everyone?


Did you by any chance watch it whilst drinking tea from a porcelain cup, decorated with a pale blue pattern....?

Sorry, but that video is just laughably bad. It would be fun to dissect the home environment and workplace of the person who made it, as you can draw parallel, equal and opposite conclusions from almost everything that surrounds us in the modern world.


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Cool...

Have emailed the NZ distributor of Rota wheels to see if I can get any additional information for all....

Interesting to see that the Rota name was registered in 1976, makes it about 37ish years old.... About the same age as 'Ray's Eng''.... Older than the 'Volk' brand possibly?? 

:chuckle:


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

PS30-SB said:


> Did you by any chance watch it whilst drinking tea from a porcelain cup, decorated with a pale blue pattern....?
> 
> Sorry, but that video is just laughably bad. It would be fun to dissect the home environment and workplace of the person who made it, as you can draw parallel, equal and opposite conclusions from almost everything that surrounds us in the modern world.


Exactly... I just bought a new TV... 60" Flat screen.... All looked the same...Thin borders...Gloss black suround...Only the picture quality to choose from...Just as it should be....!!!

Cars all look the same...Girls all dressed the same...Phones all look the same....Beer tastes the same....Agghhhhh Frack....Replicas everywhere:runaway:


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

TTOBES said:


> If PAWI have actually registered one of their products with VIA, where does that leave you...?


For the VIA logo to mean anything _on any particular design of wheel_, then _that particular design_ needs to have been tested _in Japan_. Per _design_. 

Ideally, it would be done _per size_ too. A testing pass on a 6j x 14" wheel with zero offset doesn't mean that a 12j x 15" wheel with an offset of -30 in the same basic design automatically passes too. This should apply to _all_ wheel manufacturers.


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

R32 Combat said:


> On the subject of childish, how childish is it to portray something as illegal until proved legitimate? That smacks as 'can't be assed'. I'll just shoot my mouth off and hope for the best. Well, let him have it.


Yeah...Whatever happened to 'Guilty till Proven Innocent'...Ummm....Think that's right....What the Hell, they are only Phillipino's....Frack em all...


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

yodookie said:


> Keyword-- _Personal
> _
> Is PAWI a person?


Doesn't matter if they're aware of data protection then they're aware that client confidentiality is the principle that an institution or individual should not reveal information about their clients to a third party without the consent of the client or a clear legal reason. This concept is commonly provided for in law in most countries.



akasakaR33 said:


> Here is the conversation that followed:
> 
> Me: "Ok, then have any wheels by the Philippine Aluminum Wheels Corporation had ever been registered by your organization."
> VIA Manager: "No, never heard of them."
> ...


So a couple of minutes research whilst having a brew = a couple of pics…

Individual accredited:









Accreditation:









So, if the VIA manager has never heard of them, how do the machines get individual accreditation and an overall testing facility accreditation? Are they fake too? (Genuine questions btw )


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

PS30-SB said:


> For the VIA logo to mean anything _on any particular design of wheel_, then _that particular design_ needs to have been tested _in Japan_. Per _design_.
> 
> Ideally, it would be done _per size_ too. A testing pass on a 6j x 14" wheel with zero offset doesn't mean that a 12j x 15" wheel with an offset of -30 in the same basic design automatically passes too. This should apply to _all_ wheel manufacturers.


Yip... Sounds like goal posts on the trot again.... So if one Rota wheel proves to have VIA registration, it may not be enough to satisfy you...Do you want to see documentation for each wheel style....?? In each available size....?? What about colours????

Seriously bud....I would accept the same standards as the JWTC to be honest....!!!!!!!


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Also, can someone post an ACTUAL picture of a VIA certificate for Rays etc?
Just so we know what it is people expect Rota to produce, is there even a certificate or is it just held on a database?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> For the VIA logo to mean anything _on any particular design of wheel_, then _that particular design_ needs to have been tested _in Japan_. Per _design_.
> 
> Ideally, it would be done _per size_ too. A testing pass on a 6j x 14" wheel with zero offset doesn't mean that a 12j x 15" wheel with an offset of -30 in the same basic design automatically passes too. This should apply to _all_ wheel manufacturers.


Sorry that's WRONG...

The wording from the JWTC site itself states that:-
"VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and *registered* with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles."


I have underlined the important part.....registered.

So, PAWI (who I think we all agree) have a JWTC approved test facility, test wheels. They then issue a certificate for the wheel. So, in this case PAWI ARE ACTING UNDER AUTHORITY OF the "Vehicle Inspection" as their accredited tester. 
One of 2 things then happen...
1. The fact that PAWI have tested a wheel, found it compliant and issued a certificate is in itself the act of registration with the Council.

OR

2. PAWI test the wheel, find it compliant, issue the certificate and send a copy to the Council.

which of the 2 constitutes 'registration' will be in the detail of the wording and would need further clarification. 

Either way *THE WHEEL ITSELF DOES NOT NEED TO GO TO JAPAN TO BE TESTED AND REGISTERED!!*

TT


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Did you by any chance watch it whilst drinking tea from a porcelain cup, decorated with a pale blue pattern....?


No, it was a Red Nose Day mug, bought from Sainsbury's (Made in China)



PS30-SB said:


> Sorry, but that video is just laughably bad.


Agreed, very selectively made but there is some truth in it.




PS30-SB said:


> ....as you can draw parallel, equal and opposite conclusions from almost everything that surrounds us in the modern world.


And that was the point I was trying to make. The problem is, some people are holding up Japanese industry as a paragon of virtue when they are just as guilty of everyone else for 'borrowing ideas'. I should've really stayed away from this thread but what the hell. The issue has shifted from cheap imitation wheels to a single marking on a wheel. If we ignore the marking for a minute could this thread go back to topic of imitation vs genuine?


----------



## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

LiamGTR said:


> I can't tell if you mean that in a positive or negative matter? :nervous:


It's positive either way

Either it is a genuine stamp and people will know 100% that they can buy wheels of popular style wheels at a fraction of the price that ARE safe (this is a question that crops up VERY often, not just int his thread)

OR

the VIA stamp turns out to be incorrectly used and people know that they are buying cheaper wheels that are not as safe as they claim to be.

it's all about being transparent.

I for one don't care whatever way this turns out, would just be nice to clean up this ambiguous VIA stamp, as it's VERY odd to sell non JDM wheels with a JDM safety stamp in every country Except Japan where the stamp is ONLY valid for Japan.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Out of interest yesterday I had a look at the websites of some other manufacturers...namely BBS, Speedline and OZ Racing to name a few...

It strikes me that certainly none of the above mention compliance to any quality standard (with the exception of BBS who quote ISO 9001) and only go on about the usual "meeting and exceeding standards" :blahblah:

To me, these 3 companies represent 'quality' brands but do not appear, from their own websites, to have VIA approval. Now I'm pretty sure BBS are sold in Japan so how is that possible if they dont have approval??

Odd how wheel makers are coy about standards on their websites...you would think they would be more than happy to list all the approvals they have.??

TT


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

OK, so a bit more digging found this:
http://en.xinfawheels.com/zizhi.html

Where I'm prsuming this is the ACTUAL VIA Certificate?









Nope, scrath that, that again would appear to be accrediation for manufacturing


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Sorry that's WRONG...
> 
> The wording from the JWTC site itself states that:-
> "VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and *registered* with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles."
> ...


And I believe that YOU are wrong. The crux of the matter is the _difference_ between the JWL ( and JWL-T ) markings and the VIA markings _on the wheel_. The wording ( possibly not the best translation into English ) on that page doesn't help.

If the wheels concerned _have not been to Japan_ ( to be tested by the *V*ehicle *I*nspection authority ) then they should not be wearing the VIA logo. 

I think you're misunderstanding the paragraph you quoted. Look down to the answer to Question 10 from that page for clarification.


----------



## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

tarmac terror said:


> :chuckle: You crack me up...you really do!!
> You seem so entrenched in your viewpoint that you fail (or don't want) to see the use of the logo IS indeed legal by the very fact that PAWI are an authorised TEST facility. THEY test the wheels and issue certification (which THEN allows the logo to be used).
> I'm really struggling to see what part of that you don't get. Seriously....spell it out for me as I'm genuinely puzzled!!



Sure, I will point it out exactly to you, so please pay attention.


Taken directly from the JWTC site:
"Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?

A2: VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. *In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles.*

As the VIA mark is a registered trademark, displaying the VIA mark without VIA registration means unauthorized use of a registered trademark, and hence is illegal."



When they say "verification test", what do you suppose they are verifying? They are verifying the tests that were conducted previously by the manufacturer. It says in plain text on the JWTC website that the process to become certified VIA compliant is: 1.)test wheel and record results , 2.)send wheel and test result documents to VIA (in Japan), 3.) VIA tests the wheel and looks at your testing documents, 4.) VIA either passes or fails you. If pass, you get a certificate.



You notice how Vehicle Inspection is capitalized? That means VIA, I don't know if you all realize this. 
It's already in the answer to "Q1--A1--(2)About the VIA mark --"Japan Vehicle Inspection Association"; "Vehicle Inspection" , a third party testing institution, and testing and registration operations are carried out by Vehicle Inspection. "

Some things do not translate well to English, but that is what it means.



It goes on to say that the VIA mark can only be used on the style and size of rim tested by VIA.




There is absolutely nothing on the JWTC website that says you can self-certify any wheel without sending it to VIA in Japan. Furthermore, the individuals actually working at VIA say a manufacturer cannot self-certify VIA compliance. 




My issue with this whole thing isn't if they can pass the test or not. The wheels most likely would, and I could not care less what wheels people put on their ride. My issue is I want to see evidence that they pass the certification logos (one in particular) that are stamped on them. If they haven't been registered then it's clear misuse of a logo and an attempt to deceive.


Does it make any financial sense for them to spend the money and time getting VIA certs (that are supposed to be JDM only), when they don't even have a distributor in Japan and don't sell wheels here (in a very big market I might add)? Something seems very fishy.


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> Out of interest yesterday I had a look at the websites of some other manufacturers...namely BBS, Speedline and OZ Racing to name a few...
> 
> It strikes me that certainly none of the above mention compliance to any quality standard (with the exception of BBS who quote ISO 9001) and only go on about the usual "meeting and exceeding standards" :blahblah:
> 
> ...


i think this thread is pointing only to one specific and wont be for branded/expensive ones as they are genuine/VIA approved/japan made

View attachment 7697


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

TAZZMAXX said:


> The problem is, some people are holding up Japanese industry as a paragon of virtue when they are just as guilty of everyone else for 'borrowing ideas'. I should've really stayed away from this thread but what the hell. The issue has shifted from cheap imitation wheels to a single marking on a wheel. If we ignore the marking for a minute could this thread go back to topic of imitation vs genuine?


Well, personally I think "cheap imitation" might be taken the wrong way by some ( nothing wrong with a cheaper price for comparable quality, and imitation is probably all well and good if there's no infringement ), but take a peep at the following:

Hayashi Racing catalogue:



Rota BM8 'Shakotan' wheel:



Original ( late 1970s ) Team Yayoi 'Sakura' wheel ad:



Rota 'Aleica' wheel:




It would be comforting to think that Rota / PAWI paid some kind of royalty for the designs, but as far as quality goes the Rota versions of the two designs above are _in my opinion_ at least as well made - if not better - than the originals. I rather suspect that's _not_ the case with regard to their ( cast ) version of the ( forged ) TE37.


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Cool... Back to mud slinging are we...??


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

TTOBES said:


> Cool... Back to mud slinging are we...??


just because one wheel is stronger than the other doesn't mean one is invincible

not as black and white as some people try to make out

you apply the same pressure to a cast as a forged in the same design and see the results...

here let me google that for you

Dangerous imitation wheel !! - YouTube

and for you idiots that are going to trawl through every word i write let me put this stupid disclaimer ... "i;m not branding rota as the same as other imitation wheels or even as the same as the video"


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

TTOBES said:


> Cool... Back to mud slinging are we...??




Yip...One of those shite cast wheels from the Rays Eng stable...:flame:


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Perhaps you missed this post?????





TTOBES said:


> Been looking for some new wheels..
> Just not sure which ones to choose..
> 
> They are all so similar.....
> ...


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

CrysAk said:


> just because one wheel is stronger than the other doesn't mean one is invincible
> 
> not as black and white as some people try to make out
> 
> ...



Nope... genuine Work wheel... From a link earlier in this thread...


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

TTOBES said:


> Nope... genuine Work wheel... From a link earlier in this thread...


i know.. hense my reply ... /sigh


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

Rota have been around for 36/37 years... Perhaps their original designs have been imitated too... 

This still appears to be a Rota bashing thread... There are other brands out there too... Look a couple of posts up???


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

So..? your point is mute...

so what if there are other brands

so what if rota has been around that long

so what if some people have copie.... LOL i can't finish this sentence !!!

as for rota "bashing" i think you'l find there are plenty of level headed people out there that can appreciated Rota and Rays for what they are, it seems to be the fan boys getting butt hurt and slinging insults which is detracting from the VIA issue at hand.


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

CrysAk said:


> So..? your point is mute...
> 
> so what if there are other brands
> 
> ...



Haha... there go them goal posts again... :blahblah:


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

TTOBES said:


> Haha... there go them goal posts again... :blahblah:


you realize it's you trying to change the goal posts right....

infact none of your replies to me seem to make much sense at all :/ meh,


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Lets keep it civil guys:wavey:


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

tonigmr2 said:


> Lets keep it civil guys:wavey:


Hey Toni...No drama at all...

I've just had an email reply from Rota Wheels NZ, the Kiwi distributor for PAWI.
They have supplied a copy of the same certificate as we have to prove the JWL/VIA certification of their lab/test facility.
They will contact me asap with any available registration documentation for their products, in particular the Rota Grid...

Hopefully we can put everyones mind at rest shortly...

Cheers


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

CrysAk said:


> as for rota "bashing" i think you'l find there are plenty of level headed people out there that can appreciated Rota and Rays for what they are, it seems to be the fan boys getting butt hurt and slinging insults which is detracting from the VIA issue at hand.


Far from being a fanboy....ironically I do not own any Rota wheels...


Perhaps MORE ironic is the fact that, when I started posting on this thread I did so from a point of principle. While i did not, and still dont, think tat Rota have done anything wrong or illegal with markings I DID see them as second rate wheels. After doing some research of my own and reading the input of certain people I have come to the conclusion that Rota may well indeed be the supplier of choice for any subsequent sets of wheels I may need for the GTR.

Rota Boost in 18x10........hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yummy!!!!

TT


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

tarmac terror said:


> Far from being a fanboy....ironically I do not own any Rota wheels...
> 
> TT


neither do i TT. im running Rays ce28 and was Works Meister before hehe =)

its just the principle why i joined this thread.

now planning to get a set of rota for the civic =)


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

I don't have Rotas on my 32 currently but I do have Japanese manufactured wheels which are very similar in design to a Rays rim which shows that they'll happily produce a look-a-like too ! I'd have no problem buying Rotas or Varrstoens in the future. They're pretty much the same weight size for size, available in similar sizes and offsets, easier to get hold of and cheaper than the Japanese equivalents. If it annoys the wheel snobs too then even better. 

Also..to the people that say that forged wheels are much better because you can smash a wheel into a curb\wall\badger and still get home with your bent suspension I would say that I'd personally rather have a weaker sacrificial cast rim that takes the impact and costs me £250 to replace than a forged rim that costs £500 to replace plus a strut, plus suspension arm(s) and maybe a subframe.

Cheers

Stu


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

TTOBES said:


> Hey Toni...No drama at all...
> 
> I've just had an email reply from Rota Wheels NZ, the Kiwi distributor for PAWI.
> They have supplied a copy of the same certificate as we have to prove the JWL/VIA certification of their lab/test facility.
> ...


Good work.

I hope when this thread has concluded and the credability of PAWI is satisfied, people will show a bit more respect to companies who sell products.


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

R32 Combat said:


> Good work.
> 
> I hope when this thread has concluded and the credability of PIWA is satisfied, people will show a bit more respect to companies who sell products.


not only, but to the people themselves.


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

R32 Combat said:


> Good work.
> 
> I hope when this thread has concluded and the credability of PIWA is satisfied, people will show a bit more respect to companies who sell products.


PIWA ? They cant use VIA either  :runaway:

Professional Insurance Wholesalers of New York State, Inc.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

asiasi said:


> PIWA ? They cant use VIA either  :runaway:
> 
> Professional Insurance Wholesalers of New York State, Inc.


Long day, corrected now.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

For those who insist rota are not for sale in Japan and say they never appear in the auctions and that they are illegal etc....


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## CrysAk (Mar 14, 2010)

:O maybe they're fake fakes!


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> For those who insist rota are not for sale in Japan and say they never appear in the auctions and that they are illegal etc....


Wow, the Japanese market is suddenly flooded with them. That's _four_ private auctions right there....

Come on, you know what is being asked for. What shops in Japan? What retailers? High street _or_ online? Importers or Wholesalers? Show me please. I can find anywhere.

I'm not moving the goalposts. I've been asking the same question all along.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

PS30-SB said:


> Wow, the Japanese market is suddenly flooded with them. That's _four_ private auctions right there....
> 
> Come on, you know what is being asked for. What shops in Japan? What retailers? High street _or_ online? Importers or Wholesalers? Show me please. I can find anywhere.
> 
> I'm not moving the goalposts. I've been asking the same question all along.


Well, i don't know. So there not popular.

Do people in japan import fake cheap copies of rays wheel with fraudulent wheel markings? Or do they buy them in japan?

People in the uk buy fake cheap copies of rays wheels with fraudulent wheel markings, but we get them on the black market.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Do people in japan import fake cheap copies of rays wheel with fraudulent wheel markings? Or do they buy them in japan?


Don't know, but it's beside the point anyway.

I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the Rota aftermarket wheel range ( including the BM8 'Shakotan' that I specifically asked about ) is _not_ officially imported into Japan, and is _not_ sold on the open market in Japan. 

The question that follows is, _why not_? The answer to _that_ question will be a key point in all of this, I think.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

PS30-SB said:


> Don't know, but it's beside the point anyway.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of the Rota aftermarket wheel range ( including the BM8 'Shakotan' that I specifically asked about ) is _not_ officially imported into Japan, and is _not_ sold on the open market in Japan.
> 
> The question that follows is, _why not_? The answer to _that_ question will be a key point in all of this, I think.


The answer is probably because japanese will not buy them because they think they are a ripoff of a japanese wheel.


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> The answer is probably because japanese will not buy them because they think they are a ripoff of a japanese wheel.


The Japanese public don't seem to have been given the chance to decide. If the wheels are not being imported, distributed and retailed in Japan, then the blockage must be further up the chain of supply....


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> The question that follows is, _why not_? The answer to _that_ question will be a key point in all of this, I think.



I disagree....its NOT particularly relevant.

Taking the 'generic' standpoint.......a manufacturer of goods is in no way obliged to enter a specific market. My earlier analogy of the music industry is a case in point. Why should Japan be seen as SO important in all this?? 
So, if I decide to start a company selling...i dunno..say, steering wheels....by your argument, I MUST enter the Japanese market in order to be seen as 'kosher'.

Hmm....that doesnt sit quite right with me. There must be thousands of companies that manufacture car related items and I bet LOADS of them have chosen NOT to enter the Japanese market.

Really....you're making it sound like the be-all-and-end-all for a company to have presence in Japan..

:chairshot

TT


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> Hayashi Racing catalogue:


LOL...what a massive range of styles they have :chuckle:. Nothing like putting all your eggs in one basket 

TT


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

dont know what this website means. need to learn nipongo

pls give us brightness


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> So, if I decide to start a company selling...i dunno..say, steering wheels....by your argument, I MUST enter the Japanese market in order to be seen as 'kosher'.


No. As has so often been the case in this thread, _you are missing the point_....

Japan is _one of_ the world's single biggest aftermarket wheel consuming nations. There are many domestic producers, and there are many _imported_ brands. Even if a manufacturer ( let's say English brand 'Minilite' for example ) choose not to set up their own sales operation in Japan, a Japan-based trading company / wholesaler or even just a specialist shop ( one that caters for 'British' cars, for instance ) would normally see the gap in the market and step into it. It's like _Natural Selection_. A classic Mini owner in Japan can buy Minilite wheels for his car from any number of retailers in Japan. 

But we don't see this with Rota. A brand - remember - that carries Japanese industry standard recognition marks on its products. It's almost bizarre that they _wouldn't_ have a presence in Japan.

It would be interesting to know _why_ that is the case.


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> LOL...what a massive range of styles they have :chuckle:. Nothing like putting all your eggs in one basket


Nothing like seeing _one page_ in a brochure, for many variations / fitments _of the same basic design_, and thinking that's _everything_.

Hayashi have other products apart from their ( classic ) 'Street' design....


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

nightcrawler said:


> dont know what this website means. need to learn nipongo


Try to cram as much in as you can whilst you're still young, as it's much easier to learn a foreign language when you are still a child. 

It gets much more difficult when you become a teenager.


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

PS30-SB said:


> Japan is _one of_ the world's single biggest aftermarket wheel consuming nations. There are many domestic producers, and there are many _imported_ brands. Even if a manufacturer ( let's say English brand 'Minilite' for example ) choose not to set up their own sales operation in Japan, a Japan-based trading company / wholesaler or even just a specialist shop ( one that caters for 'British' cars, for instance ) would normally see the gap in the market and step into it. It's like _Natural Selection_. A classic Mini owner in Japan can buy Minilite wheels for his car from any number of retailers in Japan.
> 
> But we don't see this with Rota. A brand - remember - that carries Japanese industry standard recognition marks on its products. It's almost bizarre that they _wouldn't_ have a presence in Japan.
> 
> It would be interesting to know _why_ that is the case.


It would certainly help this discussion if you would actually state the reasons why you feel this is such an important point.

At the moment it appears that you just want to foster some vague suspicion in peoples minds that the Rota brand is substandard in some way. :blahblah:


----------



## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

tarmac terror said:


> Why should Japan be seen as SO important in this?


That's TOTALLY the point in this! Rota have ripped off the Japanese designs from companies based in Japan such as Rays. You don't see many bmws with rota GTRs on. Clearly their customer base in the uk is aimed at drivers of Japanese cars, imports etc. 
not rota bashing, far from it as this tread has educated me somewhat. I still wouldn't have them as I'd rather have the real deal but thats just me, but I would like to know if they have exposure in Japan from a retail standpoint and not just a couple of auctions on Japanese eBay.


----------



## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

Jdm style wheels, international company, selling all over the world.
Be nice to know if they do sell in Japan directly whilst we wait for via clarification


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> Try to cram as much in as you can whilst you're still young, as it's much easier to learn a foreign language when you are still a child.
> 
> It gets much more difficult when you become a teenager.


I don't know where your getting your figures from, have you actually been to Japan. It's actually quite small and the majority of cars have stock wheels. It isn't the major market you say it is. The states will be far bigger.

Please post some facts showing that Japan is the biggest consumer of after market wheels as your post seem to be entirely based on your opinion.


----------



## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Try to cram as much in as you can whilst you're still young, as it's much easier to learn a foreign language when you are still a child.
> 
> It gets much more difficult when you become a teenager.



thats why i asked politely what the website means, as i know you are by far the best person to ask, and know everything about japan and its market. my question was genuine

yes sir :bowdown1:

i will try to learn as much as i can while i am still young and you will be my inspiration.
thanks for the words of wisdom. much appreciated =)


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## nightcrawler (May 7, 2010)

David said:


> I don't know where your getting your figures from, have you actually been to Japan.


probably david... from his/her posts from different threads, he/she seems to know a lot and i actually learnt by reading (again, genuine).

like this

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/172427-free-kpgc10-race-model-next-4-orders.html


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

TTOBES said:


> It would certainly help this discussion if you would actually state the reasons why you feel this is such an important point.
> 
> At the moment it appears that you just want to foster some vague suspicion in peoples minds that the Rota brand is substandard in some way. :blahblah:


Because, as I've stated so many times in this thread already, market forces are like _Mother Nature_. Free trade economics flow like water. It would be downright _strange_ for a high volume aftermarket wheel brand like Rota _not_ to have a presence - either direct or through independent agents / retailers - in Japan. With PAWI / Rota being based in the Philippines, Japan is likely their closest big single-nation market in their home economic region of South East Asia. 

_"Substandard"_? As the Rota supporters have been pointing out in this thread, the issue of quality and standards should be answered by the Japanese industry standards compliance marks that are stickered to the wheels. You can't have it both ways! 

If the Rota wheels _are indeed_ fully compliant with Japanese standards, then _why_ are they not on the open market for volume sale in the Japanese market? It can't be because they are too expensive, and it can't be because they are not attractive. It has to be something else....


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

David said:


> I don't know where your getting your figures from, have you actually been to Japan. It's actually quite small and the majority of cars have stock wheels. It isn't the major market you say it is. The states will be far bigger.
> 
> Please post some facts showing that Japan is the biggest consumer of after market wheels as your post seem to be entirely based on your opinion.


I've been going to Japan for over 25 years now. I used to live there, used to work there ( for the best part of 5 years ), still work for a Japanese company and still visit quite often for both work and family reasons. I was there last month, actually. I think I know what I'm talking about.

Japan _"quite small"_? Depends what you are comparing it to. With a population of around 128 million, and with approximately 60 million cars on Japanese roads, I wouldn't call it "small" in those terms. It's certainly not a small market for aftermarket wheels.

Please go back and read what I actually _wrote_. The point is that Japan is one of the World's biggest single markets for aftermarket auto wheels. I didn't say it was the single biggest, although I suspect it might well be quite high up on the list.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

****Message sent by Ben Jordan of Rota Wheels UK to nightcrawler via e-mail and posted on 25th April together with certificate scan ***


nightcrawler said:


> JWTC have ACCREDITED (a person, organization, or course of study) Officially recognized or authorized)
> 
> PHILIPPINE ALUMINIUM WHEELS (ROTA)
> 
> ...



*The fact the above post dated 25th April has been deleted is a deafeningly loud statement and should have be taken heed of by all those reading or contributing to this thread. 

Anyone with knowledge of how JWTC operates and it's rules & regulations for membership will know that in stating above that Rota DO NOT send wheels to VIA for testing in Japan, Ben Jordan of RotawheelsUK effectively admitted that the markings on wheels are in fact NOT certified by VIA.*

This is why the above post has quietly been editted or removed. I have more on the subject to conclude this matter, but felt this post important enough not to mix with the remaining information I have gathered today. 

*Ben Jordan / Rota Wheels UK - I believe you owe those on this forum a sincere apology. To now hide behind silence will only make the situation worse.*


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Miguel, thanks for posting that up.

That reminds me, the PM I got was from a "Julian" and NOT "Ben", so I wasn't comfortable sending a response. Plus, I figured if PAWI had a relationship with JWTC, then it would be a matter of simple phone call to them (the name was requested so that JWTC could be contacted to "report this incident and ironed out").

Also, if I may - wasn't someone supposed to send in/post evidence of the VIA certification? Either UK or NZ Rota... what happened? 

If people had read my posts, they would then understand that, once the VIA certificates (for EACH WHEEL MODEL) had been posted, then this discussion would be moot, Rota's case proven, and then we can close this thread.

still waiting...


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Anyone with knowledge of how JWTC operates and it's rules & regulations for membership will know that in stating above that Rota DO NOT send wheels to VIA for testing in Japan, Ben Jordan of RotawheelsUK effectively admitted that the markings on wheels are in fact NOT certified by VIA.[/B]


Where is it written that you need to send wheels to japan to get VIA markings?


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

akasakaR33 said:


> Also, if I may - wasn't someone supposed to send in/post evidence of the VIA certification? Either UK or NZ Rota... what happened?
> 
> still waiting...


Yip, that was me...

I'm waiting for a further reply from Rota Wheels NZ with the info. I was told that it would be at least Monday before I got that reply and will update all when recieved...


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

see question 2



_Q2:Can we label with VIA marks or limited load marks on our own authority?


A2:	VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council. In addition, VIA marks and load labeling marks must be used in the stipulated sizes and styles.

As the VIA mark is a registered trademark, displaying the VIA mark without VIA registration means unauthorized use of a registered trademark, and hence is illegal._

Doesn't say here, in the VIA official website, that the wheels need to be tested in Japan.

Where is it written they they do?


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Doesn't say here, in the VIA official website, that the wheels need to be tested in Japan.
> 
> Where is it written they they do?


All the way through this thread you - and a couple of others - have consistently missed the point that the Japanese *V*ehicle *I*nspection *A*gency is effectively a department of the _Japanese_ civil service. It doesn't have any direct power or jurisdiction _outside_ Japan. It is concerned with compliance of vehicles - and parts - that will be sold and used in the Japanese domestic market.

The question of VIA markings on wheels is a quite different one to the JWL / JWL-T markings on wheels, and the compliance of test equipment in any testing labs _outside Japan_. 



> VIA marks or limited load marking can only be displayed on products that comply with verification test conducted by the Vehicle Inspection and registered with the Council.


It's not a very good translation from Japanese into English, but the point they are making is that the individual design verification test is conducted _at the Vehicle Inspection Agency_ ( ie in Japan ) and the design is then registered with the Council ( in Japan ).


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Miguel suggests that because the Rota wheels are not sent to Japan for testing, they cannot have the VIA markng on them. 

I am asking for evidence of this. That is all.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

how is this japanese via certification any different from whatever the uk certification is ? 
if there is any uk certification that is ?


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

scoooby slayer said:


> how is this japanese via certification any different from whatever the uk certification is ?


Well, for one thing _it's all in Japanese_.

Examples of all the Japanese certifications are on the jwtc website ( www.jwtc.jp ).


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

scoooby slayer said:


> how is this japanese via certification any different from whatever the uk certification is ?
> if there is any uk certification that is ?


Worryingly there seems to be no standard set in the UK.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

willrobdon said:


> Worryingly there seems to be no standard set in the UK.


It is not unusual for there not to be a UK standard. As long at there is a good international standard, that will suffice.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

It seems worth remembering that the VIA standard for Japan is a _voluntary_ standard.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> It seems worth remembering that the VIA standard for Japan is a _voluntary_ standard.


Voluntary, yes. But if at Shaken they find a car's after market wheels don't carry a VIA marking it cannot be tested successfully. 
I know from having tested an RX-8 used in the Tokyo Drift 3 film for a Yobi Kensa - and that had US wheels without the markings and failed. 

This is one reason why VIA is effectively required on all after market wheels sold in Japan. 

... Conclusion coming shortly. Just giving Rotawheels UK / NZ a chance to respond...


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Voluntary, yes. But if at Shaken they find a car's after market wheels don't carry a VIA marking it cannot be tested successfully.


Understood and agreed.

Any wheels that don't carry VIA marking or have not passed certification are effectively _'off road / race use only'_ in Japan. Insurance invalid.


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> All the way through this thread you - and a couple of others - have consistently missed the point that the Japanese *V*ehicle *I*nspection *A*gency is effectively a department of the _Japanese_ civil service. It doesn't have any direct power or jurisdiction _outside_ Japan. It is concerned with compliance of vehicles - and parts - that will be sold and used in the Japanese domestic market.
> 
> The question of VIA markings on wheels is a quite different one to the JWL / JWL-T markings on wheels, and the compliance of test equipment in any testing labs _outside Japan_.
> 
> ...


PS30-SB,

Thanks for this. I was just about to post the same explanation.

Folks, there is a REASON why the "Vehicle Inspection" is capitalized.

Oh - and do you know why most non-Japanese wheel manufacturers, who are PROPERLY registered with JWTC/VIA don't have a problem "sending wheels to Japan"??

Maybe it's because they are getting the VIA certification so THEY CAN ACTUALLY SELL IN JAPAN!!! So what's a few wheels sent over, before the whole lot is sent over?

There is ONLY a problem if the wheels are meant to be sold everywhere else EXCEPT Japan. Then yes indeed, it is a REAL PAIN to send wheels over...

But remember, the VIA mark is for Japan Domestic Market use only...

So the conclusion is....? (take a wild guess...)


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

BBS sells a lot of wheels in Japan and have a lot of registrations to enable them to do so...


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

https://www.jwtc.jp/open/html/e/situmon1.html#a02



> Q7:	If we have approved testing equipment ourselves, can we display the VIA mark on products that have passed the tests in the relevant testing equipment?
> A7:	Simply because a product has passed an internal inspection test does not mean it can be labeled with a VIA mark.
> 
> Application for VIS registration should be filed with documents attached with results of evaluation (test reports) using approved and registered testing equipment, and then *only products that pass the verification test at Vehicle Inspection *and in documentary judgment, and which are then are registered with VIA may be labeled with the VIA mark on the light alloy disc wheel.


IF people had bothered to read the entire Q&A all the way through, it says quite clearly that, testing of every 5th wheel must be done AT the Vehicle Inspection Agency... which happens to be in Japan.

And this is the ALTERNATIVE method - remember the normal course is to have EVERY wheel tested - this second method allows those, like ROTA apparently, who HAVE testing equipment certified by JWTC/VIA, to submit 4 wheels by documentation, but the 5th wheel in the series MUST be sent to Japan for testing.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Just a quick question, does anyone actually care that the reputation of a product being discussed in this thread may suffer further as a result of so much speculation? I wonder, if it was your business, how comfortable you would be with seeing your products placed under such close scrutiny by so many people who don't seem to have all the facts?


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

I do have the FACTS - no speculation at all, will post my findings very shortly.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

****Message sent by Ben Jordan of Rota Wheels UK to nightcrawler via e-mail and posted on 25th April together with certificate scan ***



nightcrawler said:


> JWTC have ACCREDITED (a person, organization, or course of study) Officially recognized or authorized)
> 
> PHILIPPINE ALUMINIUM WHEELS (ROTA)
> 
> ...


As is clearly stated on JWTC’s Japanese website and explained several times by Aki on this thread - although a manufacturer can submit their own wheel test results using accredited equipment to JWTC, for every 4 wheel test results provided, one wheel MUST be tested by JWTC, IN JAPAN. NOT ON ANYONE ELSE'S EQUIPMENT, BUT JWTC’s. For VIA certification there are no exceptions. 

Even Volk Racing send their wheels in for testing before they will offer them on the market with VIA markings on (& there are several hundred certificates produced for Volk Racing by VIA).

*In stating PAWI / Rota have not sent any wheels to Japan for testing, Ben Jordan effectively admitted on 25th April via e-mail to Ron / nightcrawler - & therefore to all reading this thread that none of the claimed VIA certification boldly cast onto the surface of each Rota wheel produced is genuine. * 

To confirm this fact I had made my mind up I would visit JWTC’s offices in Tokyo at the first opportunity this week, but being a holiday period I thought it prudent for our Japanese staff to call ahead first thing this morning and make sure I would be able to visit and obtain the information I was after without making a long trip into the city & back.

After first calling the JWTC offices in Tokyo (Same place Aki obtained information from last week) and describing information we were after, in particular with regard to authenticity of the Certificate provided by Ben Jordan of Rota Wheels UK, we were directed to the:

*General Foundation Japan Vehicle Inspection Association -Tokyo laboratory, 114-0003, Kita-ku, Tokyo, Toshima 7-26-28 TEL 03-3912-2361 Fax 03-3912-2208 *

And we were kindly given a direct number to Funiu-san, who is a senior manager for the Tokyo Testing laboratory for VIA. What follows is a summary of the 10 minute conversation held in Japanese:

After introducing ourselves & explaining why we were calling we directed the conversation at the certificate - quoting the name “Philppine Aluminum Wheels Inc.” and the dates of validity & expiry. 
Funiu San checked their database & confirmed the certificate was indeed genuine and even recalled the trip to the Philippines in 2008 to verify their equipment met VIA standards for accredited testing. 

We then asked if this certificate entitled PAWI to self-certify. 

He confirmed what we already knew: 
- That it does NOT. IT ONLY ALLOWS APPLICATIONS FOR VIA certificates TO BE MADE BY DOCUMENTATION (vs. actual physical testing) for up to 4 wheel models AFTER one similar model had already been sent to Japan for testing by JWTC so that test results could be compared. 

Knowing what Ben Jordan had already admitted publically on this forum, we first quoted what he’d said about all their wheel designs being VIA approved. 

We were not surprised to hear the answer to our next question: 

“How many VIA wheel certificates are on the database for “Philippine Aluminum Wheels Inc.”?

*“None”*, he said. 

“Really, so do you mean that even though we are told all of their wheels are VIA certified, in fact none of them are?”

“I cannot say if another company has tested wheels produced by PAWI under their own company name in Japan and such information would belong to another completely separate company if so; but yes – there have been no certificates produced for PAWI”, he replied.

We also asked whether the registration may have been made under "ROTA" as well as some of their more popular models like "GRID" and "SHAKOTAN." The answer was without exception, *"no."*

After wording the same questions differently over & over and obtaining the same conclusive answers several times in confirmation, Funiu-san then went on to say that if PAWI would provide VIA reference numbers for wheels tested he would be happy to verify for us again.

At the end of our conversation we asked if there would be any benefit in me coming all the way to the Tokyo office in person to see him and Funiu-san’s response was that he’d already given us all the information available at this time.

We thanked him for his kind assistance and the phone call was completed.

Being a registered business here trading in Japanese wheels, we were invited to register with JWTC’s online membership. Shortly afterwards, we received an e-mail from Funiu-san with login information where we could check certification for each company that has VIA approved wheels, inclusive of checking VIA reference numbers directly.

It is fascinating, but not surprising to see Volk Racing and Enkei have several hundred certificates each. 
Interestingly, for RAYS TE37’s alone, there are currently a total of 76 certificates – This is for just ONE model of the many different wheel designs VR has manufactured.

Further searches for “Rota”, “PAWI”, “Philippine Aluminum Wheel Inc.” "GRID CLASSIC" "GR6" "GT3" - we tried every possible search that came into my head whilst searching Rota's website & found ZERO listings under any of these categories. 

I would also add that, we did a check for BBS & OZ wheels, and yes all their models sold in Japan, came up, so foreign wheels are registered.

Incidentally, people should be aware that the listing ALSO shows whether the wheels are "JWL" or "JWL-T" or both. The conclusion is obvious - even if a company self-certifies this rating, THE APPLICANT STILL HAS TO REPORT IT TO JWTC.

I fail to see how ROTA really believes that they can self certify JWL or VIA, or BOTH, WITHOUT registration with JWTC.

*As Ben Jordan has intimated PAWI have certificates for their wheels, I once again ask herewith that he, or Even Rota Wheels NZ provide VIA reference numbers which we will be happy to verify with VIA directly. *


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

What are the costs involved in getting a wheel/style VIA authenticated?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Well it looks to me like you only have to send *one* wheel instead of *5* if you have your own testing equipment, but you still have to send one wheel _to Japan_ to carry the VIA mark.

Of course, this does not mean the product is not of good quality people, it might just mean they've not paid to submit it to VIA in Japan.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> Well it looks to me like you only have to send *one* wheel instead of *5* if you have your own testing equipment, but you still have to send one wheel _to Japan_ to carry the VIA mark.
> 
> Of course, this does not mean the product is not of good quality people, it might just mean they've not paid to submit it to VIA in Japan.


...And by Ben Jordan's admission, have never sent any wheels to VIA either.

But - No, to be fair it doesn't mean their wheels are unsafe, or anything like that. I've no doubt some of Rota's wheels would pass VIA testing and inspections if that were the only issue with regard to why Rota wheels are not marketed in Japan:

It's obvious to anyone - Rota's worldwide niche is in supplying copied wheels of the main Japanese after-market manufacturers... And in Japan that would probably not go down so well with the domestic wheel marketing & retail industry here as a whole. The people who know about Japan understand this clearly hence why their opinions have all been much the same in direction if not strength of disapproval of Rota's copied wheels on this thread.

But I also understand in UK, etc. many people clearly don't care what Rota does. Copy wheels or not their cars look good, never mind the lower quality of manufacturing. Perception of what is important is completely up to the individual of course. 



rotawheelsuk said:


> :chuckle:I am in disbelief over some of the comments posted here, particularly those posted by Miguel.....
> .....As for the requests to 'prove' the VIA stamping, do you really think that JWTC would approve Rota to stamp wheels as JWL, but overlook the 600,000 wheels or so per year that Rota are pumping out with the 'fake' VIA stamp...


I was quite incensed with slanted comments & attacks from Ben Jordan of Rota Wheels UK directed at myself & Newera on 25th April so I felt it important to present the facts clearly and set the matter straight. I believe I've done that now so I think I'm pretty much finished here and this discussion is concluded as far as I'm concerned.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

CSB said:


> What are the costs involved in getting a wheel/style VIA authenticated?


the wheels certainly wont be £200 anymore thats for sure !

hopefully this thread will make getting decent money for used volk rays a little easier, i sold my full set of 19s last year for £1100 with tyres, and they were £600 each new !


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

tarmac terror said:


> WTF!!!!!! Are you reading the same thread I am????
> 
> They are LEGITIMATELY stamped VIA FFS!!!!
> 
> ...


Oops,looks like that fork will come in handy :chuckle::chuckle: yummie yummie humble pie :chuckle::chuckle:


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## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

Oh hell, a 2nd turn of events!!!


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

LiamGTR said:


> Oh hell, a 2nd turn of events!!!


Im sure there will be more before this thread is through.....

TT


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## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

Here's hoping  Been a really good read so far


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Just a quick question, does anyone actually care that the reputation of a product being discussed in this thread may suffer further as a result of so much speculation? I wonder, if it was your business, how comfortable you would be with seeing your products placed under such close scrutiny by so many people who don't seem to have all the facts?


I would be concerned. He is aware of the thread and has plenty of opportunity to respond. If I were claiming my wheels were all legitimate I'd just provide proof they were. We are waiting....


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

willrobdon said:


> You don't see many bmws with rota GTRs on.


Yes but PAWI supply OEM ....who knows, you may well have driven a car with wheels made by PAWI 

TT


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

willrobdon said:


> I would be concerned. He is aware of the thread and has plenty of opportunity to respond. If I were claiming my wheels were all legitimate I'd just provide proof they were. We are waiting....


I have put this to him. I'm happy to remove/lock this thread if he puts it to bed in light of Miguels most recent posts.


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

tarmac terror said:


> Yes but PAWI supply OEM ....who knows, you may well have driven a car with wheels made by PAWI
> 
> TT


Perhaps but not the Japanese style of wheels. :thumbsup:


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> Yes but PAWI supply OEM ....who knows, you may well have driven a car with wheels made by PAWI
> 
> TT


Logistically OEM's have their cast wheels made as locally as possible to location of assembly of their motor vehicles, in order to keep costs down.

I'd be interested to know which cars we may well have driven that would have been made in the Philippines? :nervous:


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## Asphalt Jet (Oct 20, 2008)

Some of you need to humbly apologize to others on this forum, I think. If you cant admit when you’ve been wrong to insult people, etc. – then it will serve to show others on this forum just what your lack of character / integrity really is.





Trev said:


> I'd bet good money you wouldn't slag Rota's off if you could sell them by the bucket loads Miguel.


 



Trev said:


> Think your getting lost with this FAKE or IMITATION thing.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Hmmm. There appears to be no UK standard of testing wheels. 





tarmac terror said:


> Ouch Miguel...that must've hurt...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



Trev said:


> I agree, like I said, it's slanderous IMHO, not something a TRADER should be doing - puts the forum in a bad light.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

“DELETED his apologie”??? – Really?? LOL. 



CSB said:


>


 



tarmac terror said:


> :chuckle::chuckle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



nightcrawler said:


> you are making your own conclusion base on your understanding and all arguments without any given proof of your statement.
> 
> 
> 
> how about you get the certification we need that PAWI/ROTA does not have the authority to mark VIA on their wheels and the accreditation of JWTC is NOT a valid authorization for the aggravated company? pls provide and i will happily concede. your first legal analysis of RAYS pursuing ROTA in japan is based on?


 



matt j said:


> Oh no!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



tarmac terror said:


> And when you find them........what????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



R32 Combat said:


> There does appear to be an emerging divide here. People from Japan/lived in Japan etc seem really cheese off about the whole thing, the rest of the world don't give a flying hoot.
> 
> 
> 
> On the subject of childish, how childish is it to portray something as illegal until proved legitimate? That smacks as 'can't be assed'. I'll just shoot my mouth off and hope for the best. Well, let him have it.


 



AlexJ said:


> What is childish is stamping your feet and shouting with your fingers stuck in your ears. Casting unfounded aspersions about competitors products. Disengenuously claiming you are earnestly acting in the consumers interest. It's childish to assume that industry isn't built on taking successful products changing them just enough to not be actionable, changing the manufacturing process to reduce costs while maintaining a legal standard of product that is still acceptable to the customer and undercut the original. In fact that's what Japanese industry was built on. It is childish if not racist to assume that something manufactured in the philipines or china is inherently inferior and probably dangerous.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway I've been researching these Jawas and they sound a right dodgy bunch, apparently they have " a reputation for swindling, as they had a penchant for selling old equipment such as outdated faulty droids to moisture farmers. However, they were extremely passive beings, and hardly put up any resistance to colonists of their planet unlike the other natives the Sand people, instead seeing foreigners as an excellent business opportunity." Maybe different type of Jawa.


 



TTOBES said:


> Bud... Don't want to appear to be racist or anything even close, but go back and actually read some of the previous posts and think about the content before reacting in another bullshite post....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



TTOBES said:


> Cool... Back to mud slinging are we...??


 



R32 Combat said:


> ….
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Well said!!!



And then theres this thread :GrowUp: http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/177062-permitted-items.html


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Mookistar said:


> I have put this to him. I'm happy to remove/lock this thread if he puts it to bed in light of Miguels most recent posts.


If Ben Jordan can prove Rota / PAWI does indeed have VIA approval certficates for their wheel designs that can be verified, I for one would be prepared to write a full & formal apology here. 

However, my most recent posts contain the clear facts. 

All we would need are valid VIA approval numbers for Rota wheels which could very easily be verified.

We're waiting....


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

Well said Asphalt Jet. :thumbsup:


ETA: I know a fair few were aimed at me, but I won't be expecting any kind of apology.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

I'm not apologising for jack s***!

This thread has turned into a witch hunt aimed at Rota - it's disgusting and all of you throwing dirt at a company publicly on this forum should be ashamed.

Idiots.


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## yodookie (Oct 22, 2012)

Trev said:


> I'm not apologising for jack s***!
> 
> This thread has turned into a witch hunt aimed at Rota - it's disgusting and all of you throwing dirt at a company publicly on this forum should be ashamed.
> 
> Idiots.



You're just further proving my point, but go ahead and keep going. :chuckle:


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Trev said:


> This thread has turned into a witch hunt aimed at Rota


I'm inclined to agree and the thread is so far off topic now that it will never get back on track or give a reasonable answer to the OP.

Sorry, but it's time to close it. I'm referring this to admin and if they want to re-open that's their decision. I can't see any benefit to leaving it open.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

As Tazz says, this thread is locked until Rota themselves provide me with further information. The topic itself will be re-opened when both sides have presented all the FACTS and the discussion can continue without degenraitng into a bun fight

Mook


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