# BM GTR vs Gallardo SL vs 911 turbo vs GT-3 vs NSX-R 2



## Prov1 (Jun 29, 2007)

YouTube - 【BM】GTR vs Gallardo SL vs 911 turbo vs GT-3 vs NSX-R 2


----------



## maximum6 (Jan 19, 2008)

he didn't use launch control


----------



## Bigrigger (Aug 6, 2007)

Nice vid, dosen't surprize me the GTR came in 2nd to the Gallardo SL. More HP and way less weight, but at 4X the price.


----------



## Godspd (Dec 12, 2001)

A rematch with the up and coming Spec-V is in order...


----------



## bernmc (Dec 26, 2006)

_Must_ be a doctored vid - _everyone_ knows that GTR's - whatever the model - are the fastest cars in the world :chuckle: 

Would be interesting to see the GTR up against an Italian car - Ferraris conspicuously absent from these group races.


----------



## git-r (Nov 15, 2005)

Nice vid - thanks for sharing:thumbsup: 

I just raced a standard Gallardo a few days ago so found this very interesting


----------



## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

The Gallardo SL isn't in the same league as the standard GT-R. I wonder why BM have put it in... The opponent for the SL & Scuderia is more V-Spec ish. But the initial target was the 911turbo, right? And the TT was reduced to dust, that's the shit that counts!!


----------



## Harry (Sep 1, 2002)

Go the SL


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Interesting video. The GTR was faster than everything to start with but the extra third of a ton it's carrying let the SL back in right at the end. But I'm sure £100k of modifications could easily redress that balance. In fact, ripping out the rear seats would probably redress that balance. In all fairness, it started off behind the SL and finished in the same place.


----------



## Lestat2369 (Sep 28, 2006)

quite amazing machine.....


----------



## roadie (Feb 6, 2006)

That Gallardo sounds intoxicating !!!!! Wish they could make the gtr sound like that. 
Just curious what an nsx would be capable of if Honda would thow some freakin' hp at that car.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

roadie said:


> That Gallardo sounds intoxicating !!!!! Wish they could make the gtr sound like that.
> Just curious what an nsx would be capable of if Honda would thow some freakin' hp at that car.


I've always said that the only thing seperating the NSX's greatness from legend is 2 extra cylinders.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

This is the drag match:

YouTube - 【BM】GTR vs Gallardo SL vs 911 turbo vs GT-3 vs NSX-R


----------



## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Very surprised at how "slow" the GT3 was?


----------



## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

R33_GTS-t said:


> I've always said that the only thing seperating the NSX's greatness from legend is 2 extra cylinders.


Some NSXs in the USA were Jackson Supercharged and this apparently made them a fantastic car against even modern super cars.


----------



## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

R33_GTS-t said:


> I've always said that the only thing seperating the NSX's greatness from legend is 2 extra cylinders.


When I looked at buying a NSX I remember reading that just over £5000 gets you near the 400bhp mark as the engines were fairly strong.

Other superchargers are available too, this one puts 420whp down ---

That one very fast NSX (420hp at the wheels!).

Boostzilla Supercharger Index

YouTube - Supercharged NSX vs stock GALLARDO

Gaydon Motor Musem HR Meet (26th March) - supercharged NSX - Type R Owners Forums

1992 Acura NSX Comptech Supercharger Dyno Sheet Details - DragTimes.com

Comptech NSX Supercharger - AutoCarParts.com

I had looked at the idea but no insurer would touch a supercharger addon


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

^Just not the same as say a 4.0 or 4.3 V8 though.


----------



## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Not the same sound but still one hell of fast car considering how light they were (1320kg to 1350kg, the R was only 1230kg) and with 420RWHP a real modern super car killer.
The V8 probably would have cost too much to make and there would probably have been size and weight and handling issues because of that too. A V8 probably would only have kicked out 380bhp at most in that era so the supercharged ones can easily beat that and give a very strong torque curve down low to boot.


----------



## FiLi (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks for sharing the videos.


----------



## BBD (May 30, 2002)

ohh the 35 didnt come out of the box fast enough  more reason to buy another car

hh did anyone else notice the GTR had stripped out interior


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

skyline69_uk said:


> Not the same sound but still one hell of fast car considering how light they were (1320kg to 1350kg, the R was only 1230kg) and with 420RWHP a real modern super car killer.
> The V8 probably would have cost too much to make and there would probably have been size and weight and handling issues because of that too. A V8 probably would only have kicked out 380bhp at most in that era so the supercharged ones can easily beat that and give a very strong torque curve down low to boot.


Most NSX supercharger kits I've seen are centrifugal types which absolutely suck low down. A V8 would be far less stretched than a 420rwhp (500bhp) s/c engine. Don’t forget about the 80-100bhp it takes to drive the supercharger. That’s near the same strain as a 600bhp turbo engine. An extra 2 cylinders wouldn’t weigh much more than a supercharger, you’d have a proper sound, less stress, and, with 100bhp/L, you’d still have 430bhp from a 4.3 V8 (based on later 3.2 V6).


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

BBD said:


> ohh the 35 didnt come out of the box fast enough  more reason to buy another car
> 
> hh did anyone else notice the GTR had stripped out interior


Seat was moved back to accomodate the camera, just as it was when the last person claimed this.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Here's an alternative view from the "At-the-end-of-the-day-it's-just-a-Nissan" Forum:

GTR vs Gallardo SL vs 911 turbo vs GT-3 vs NSX-R on track - 6speedonline.com Forums


----------



## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

Wow - there is actually one porker owner in the world that isnt stuffed so far up his own arse all he can see is brown autobahn!!



Hesperus said:


> If the GT-R leaves the showroom with R-compounds, super stiff suspension and that trick flappy paddle gearbox, then that's what you get (and its still cheaper than the Turbo or GT3).
> 
> Point is, when Nissan announced that their GT-R had the TT in its sights, everyone (myself included) chuckled and said, "yeah right!". Now we're all making excuses for our beloved 911.




Butuz


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Sorry but that video is a crock of shit. There is no way in hell that the NSX could keep up with a GT3 - impossible. The GT3 would just leave it for dead.

The GTR is a phenomenon, truly, but why they insist on these dramatics is just sickening for me.


----------



## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

i think its an older GT3, not a GT3 RS. does that make any differnce?


----------



## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

FWIW, the full DVD also showed a slalom course.. with the GT3 exhibiting understeer, the Turbo oversteer... only the NSX, the Gallardo SL and the GTR were flat through. The Gallardo was fastest through that test.


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

doggiehowser said:


> FWIW, the full DVD also showed a slalom course.. with the GT3 exhibiting understeer, the Turbo oversteer... only the NSX, the Gallardo SL and the GTR were flat through. The Gallardo was fastest through that test.


911's have a natural tendancy to oversteer out of the box and requires a bit of chasis modification to counter this. I'd expect them to perform badly on a slalom actually.



mindlessoath said:


> i think its an older GT3, not a GT3 RS. does that make any differnce?


No, it was a 997 GT3 and yes, it makes a difference, the 997's are a LOT faster than the 996's.


----------



## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Here's an alternative view from the "At-the-end-of-the-day-it's-just-a-Nissan" Forum:
> 
> GTR vs Gallardo SL vs 911 turbo vs GT-3 vs NSX-R on track - 6speedonline.com Forums


LOLz


----------



## hesperus (Jan 30, 2008)

Butuz said:


> Wow - there is actually one porker owner in the world that isnt stuffed so far up his own arse all he can see is brown autobahn!!!
> 
> Butuz


oh yeah, that would be me  

I've been a GTR fan for years. I remember reading in CAR magazine years ago about how an R32 completely embarrassed a Porsche 928 in the Germans' own backyard, by being so quick on the Nordschleife that the Porker ended up limping back to the pits billowing smoke. That sold me.

Never had the pleasure of enjoying GTR's though, as I live in a LHD market, and I was never confident about the quality of the conversions _(exception being TurboAWD's R34, which is the dog's danglies. He is a friend of mine by the way)._

While I have some questions about the Best Motoring race _(for example, the GT3 was on Michelin PS2 tires, not the standard issue Sport Cups, which are much stickier,)_ it takes nothing away from Nissan's achievement. I'll hold final judgement on the ultimate performance potential of a stock GTR until many owners actually get their cars and test them in battle with other cars on trackdays around the globe. *However, on the face of things so far, I think that Nissan hit one out of the ballpark (as the Yanks like to say,) with the R35, and all other manufacturers are on notice.*

Would I have one in my drive beside the Porsche? In an instant!!! 

Cheers and happy motoring! 

_P.S. I'm no stranger to JDM's, as I currently also own a tuned Evo 5, and have started to play with a Nissan S14 Silvia. The latter being one of the most entertaining cars I've ever driven on a track!_


----------



## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

Haha - thanks for registering just to say hello!

Good to hear a balanced viewpoint!

Also good to hear that you have an S14 - I love them, really regret getting rid of mine - what a proper drivers car for pocket money!!! 

Butuz


----------



## BBD (May 30, 2002)

ahh just read that other fourm ,, that one dude from Dubai saying "Another one of these fake jap. car reviews .... 
the lap timing was totally fake...." and goes on, I really hate those porker drivers and owners to the death I would love to smash into them and see them cry about how I totaled their cars, hell I can walk up to mine and spit on it and wouldnt care..

Anyone in Dubai anyone with a porsche who thinks its special please please come to the Feb track day on teh autodrome and I will enojoy as I always have done in the past seeing your faces get red from emabressment and hearing what excuse you have.

ok glade i got that load off my chest


----------



## russwestwood (Jul 11, 2007)

You tell em BBD!


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

BBD said:


> ahh just read that other fourm ,, that one dude from Dubai saying "Another one of these fake jap. car reviews ....
> the lap timing was totally fake...." and goes on, I really hate those porker drivers and owners to the death I would love to smash into them and see them cry about how I totaled their cars, hell I can walk up to mine and spit on it and wouldnt care..
> 
> Anyone in Dubai anyone with a porsche who thinks its special please please come to the Feb track day on teh autodrome and I will enojoy as I always have done in the past seeing your faces get red from emabressment and hearing what excuse you have.
> ...


I'm a porsche driver and that video is bollox


----------



## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Harry said:


> Go the SL


Looks great in black doesn't it?!


----------



## Harry (Sep 1, 2002)

Howsie said:


> Looks great in black doesn't it?!


Yes, pity they didnt run an orange one, it would have been faster still:chuckle:


----------



## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Harry said:


> Yes, pity they didnt run an orange one, it would have been faster still:chuckle:


I hear they have a problem with the paint.


----------



## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

Why is no one subbing best motoring??! BM is so good motor racing program, that's a shame


----------



## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Sorry but that video is a crock of shit. There is no way in hell that the NSX could keep up with a GT3 - impossible. The GT3 would just leave it for dead.
> 
> The GTR is a phenomenon, truly, but why they insist on these dramatics is just sickening for me.


You never watched japanese movies? at the end they allways cry!:chuckle:


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

gtrlux said:


> You never watched japanese movies? at the end they allways cry!:chuckle:


Well it certainly was an oscar winning performance


----------



## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Well it certainly was an oscar winning performance


Exactly and a japanese one they win!

BM is done for buisness, you find them all over the country next to the car book corner in your HONYA. Thoses DVDs sell and the consumers are usually fat japanese Otakus with shiny long hairs and big glasses . . . so let the NSX win . .would you!


----------



## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Oi Lux, get over to my 4x4 thread will you and knock one out.


----------



## BBD (May 30, 2002)

Cem question to you..

Would you sell a Porsche and get a GTR35? care to share why?


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

A stock GT3 isn't as light as many think. Around 1500kg kerb weight. Add carbon frame seats and CCBs and it's still over 1450kg.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> A stock GT3 isn't as light as many think. Around 1500kg kerb weight. Add carbon frame seats and CCBs and it's still over 1450kg.


Barely over 3200 lbs, no where near 3300 lbs. And that's because all of the US models have sunroofs, and no Euro GT3 seats.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Blow Dog said:


> 911's have a natural tendancy to oversteer out of the box and requires a bit of chasis modification to counter this. I'd expect them to perform badly on a slalom actually.
> 
> 
> 
> No, it was a 997 GT3 and yes, it makes a difference, the 997's are a LOT faster than the 996's.


I hope you meant understeer because 911's strength is the weight over the real wheels which provides extra rear end grip REDUCING oversteer, but causing tires to wear too fast in long races, but neverthe less, UNDERSTEER is the problem with the light weight over the front axles. Most race teams adding ballast to the front of the car to get more balance and front grip.

And it doesnt require chassis modifications either unless you meant the suspension, bump steer is a big problem in the front again because of the lack of weight. All it takes is suspension adjustments, namely camber and softer springs and less rebound stiffness in front.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Barely over 3200 lbs, no where near 3300 lbs. And that's because all of the US models have sunroofs, and no Euro GT3 seats.


Not true. Evo magazine weighed a GT3 at 1452kg. That was with the carbon frame seats and CCBs, plus some other options that save 40kg. Without those options, you're looking at near 1500kg (3300lbs).

Anyway I'm afraid your Porsche lost. Very brave of you to jump forums to defend Porsche but nobody's really interested about the back-markers - it's like the Special Olympics.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> I hope you meant understeer because 911's strength is the weight over the real wheels which provides extra rear end grip REDUCING oversteer, but causing tires to wear too fast in long races, but neverthe less, UNDERSTEER is the problem with the light weight over the front axles. Most race teams adding ballast to the front of the car to get more balance and front grip.
> 
> And it doesnt require chassis modifications either unless you meant the suspension, bump steer is a big problem in the front again because of the lack of weight. All it takes is suspension adjustments, namely camber and softer springs and less rebound stiffness in front.


Blow Dog is referring to Slalom perfomance when the car is going side-to-side and that ghetto booty is swinging to and fro. Braking into a corner is a separate issue.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Not true. Evo magazine weighed a GT3 at 1452kg. That was with the carbon frame seats and CCBs, plus some other options that save 40kg. Without those options, you're looking at near 1500kg (3300lbs).
> 
> Anyway I'm afraid your Porsche lost. Very brave of you to jump forums to defend Porsche but nobody's really interested about the back-markers - it's like the Special Olympics.


My Porsche is in my garage, and it doesnt lose much :chuckle: . And I'd bet money I could have driven faster than those guys that were taking it easy in that BM video. I really hope you beleive that when you get to the track. The joke is only on people who buy that nonsense, which would be you. At least it would beat the GT-R you are dreaming of having and will have in 2020.


Why then does EVO list the GT3 weight at 1395? And I know of several people who OWN GT3's and they have weight under 3200 lbs on full tanks of gas, with PCCB's only? Your magazines have yet failed you again.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Blow Dog is referring to Slalom perfomance when the car is going side-to-side and that ghetto booty is swinging to and fro. Braking into a corner is a separate issue.


The same principal applies on the road course, which is not all braking into a corner.  . There happens to be corners where quick changes of direction are precisely what you see on a slalom. In fact the slalom is more advantageous for rear engine and 911's have some of the fastest slalom times for many publications.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> The same principal applies on the road course, which is not all braking into a corner.  . There happens to be corners where quick changes of direction are precisely what you see on a slalom. In fact the slalom is more advantageous for rear engine and 911's have some of the fastest slalom times for many publications.


A single corner is very different to a string of corners where the rear end would start to act as a pendulum. Even a FWD car can snap oversteer in some conditions. It isn't the same as taking a one-way corner.



heavychevy said:


> Why then does EVO list the GT3 weight at 1395? And I know of several people who OWN GT3's and they have weight under 3200 lbs on full tanks of gas, with PCCB's only? Your magazines have yet failed you again.


I'll be able to tell you the issue number later this week. Of course Evo would be biased against the GT3, even though they gave it 5 stars, because <Insert Porsche Driver Excuse>. The power and torque actually tested higher than stated - 429bhp/315lbft. Nobody is saying Porsches are bad cars, they've just been outdone.:sadwavey:


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> A single corner is very different to a string of corners where the rear end would start to act as a pendulum. Even a FWD car can snap oversteer in some conditions. It isn't the same as taking a one-way corner.
> 
> 
> I'll be able to tell you the issue number later this week. Of course Evo would be biased against the GT3, even though they gave it 5 stars, because <Insert Porsche Driver Excuse>. The power and torque actually tested higher than stated - 429bhp/315lbft. Nobody is saying Porsches are bad cars, they've just been outdone.:sadwavey:



Hehe, guess you've never heard of a chicane, or tracks like VIR that have two sets of them.  


Outdone? By a Nurburgring lap? HAHAHAHAH. When Porsche starts testing on closed courses like Chevy and Nissan you'll see a significant reduction in times, you havent the slightest clue that all of your mag racind means absolutely nothing in real life, a equal drivers in each car (actually trying) and the GT3 will win, and the TT will tie, I'd put money on it.


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

R33_GTS-t said:


> I'll be able to tell you the issue number later this week. Of course Evo would be biased against the GT3, even though they gave it 5 stars, because <Insert Porsche Driver Excuse>. The power and torque actually tested higher than stated - 429bhp/315lbft. Nobody is saying Porsches are bad cars, they've just been outdone.:sadwavey:


Outdone by what?
If you refrained from trying to turn every discussion into an argument you'd see I was talking about the NSX-R. There ain't a snowball's hope in hell that it was a legitimate race, it would have been left for dead, especially after 5 laps. To see it on its tail after that period made a mockery of the rest of the display.

Unless you'd driven a 5 star car, then you'd not really be in a position to claim we made 'excuses'.



heavychevy said:


> I hope you meant understeer because 911's strength is the weight over the real wheels which provides extra rear end grip REDUCING oversteer, but causing tires to wear too fast in long races, but neverthe less, UNDERSTEER is the problem with the light weight over the front axles. Most race teams adding ballast to the front of the car to get more balance and front grip.
> 
> And it doesnt require chassis modifications either unless you meant the suspension, bump steer is a big problem in the front again because of the lack of weight. All it takes is suspension adjustments, namely camber and softer springs and less rebound stiffness in front.


Sorry, well done you're spot on of course. It was late when I posted and I did mean understeer. In the UK we have a 'chassis' mod which is a suspension mod, it's simply a modification to the camber and I'm running neg 3deg to help combat the understeer, albeit at the expense of road use tyre wear.



BBD said:


> Cem question to you..
> 
> Would you sell a Porsche and get a GTR35? care to share why?


I certainly would buddy, although I'd not really want the standard GTR and I'd want the Spec V. The vanilla GTR is proving to be a force to be reckoned with. A lot of people, myself included, are going to have to eat a lot of hats here because the improvements gained on the 35 seem absolutely galactic in proportion and if all these claims are substantiated, then Nissan have taken the game to a level nobody else has been to.

I can do minimum 50 laps on a trackday in the GT3. This is pretty much in stock form. I'd be VERY interested to see how a 1700+ KG car will perform under such duress - I have my doubts.

I have been speaking to Nissan dealers in the UK and frankly I'm pretty pissed off that I can't get an early car, despite the two way benefits. If Nissan can get me an early slot, then I've got 10k deposit waiting for a bank account.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Blow Dog said:


> Sorry, well done you're spot on of course. It was late when I posted and I did mean understeer. In the UK we have a 'chassis' mod which is a suspension mod, it's simply a modification to the camber and I'm running neg 3deg to help combat the understeer, albeit at the expense of road use tyre wear.


I knew if you had driven one you made the same mistake I have and just stated the wrong word, I thought GT3's were immune to it until I tried taking a turn fast in my buddies 997 GT3 on cold MPSC,  .

I run neg 3.5 on my TT. Either way I hope to see some GT-R's at a Time Attack near me sometime in the next year or two.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> Outdone by what?
> If you refrained from trying to turn every discussion into an argument you'd see I was talking about the NSX-R. There ain't a snowball's hope in hell that it was a legitimate race, it would have been left for dead, especially after 5 laps. To see it on its tail after that period made a mockery of the rest of the display.


I was referring to the GTR and talking to 'heavychevy'. All but the GT2 have been outdone by the GTR.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Hehe, guess you've never heard of a chicane, or tracks like VIR that have two sets of them.


I have and that was my point. Porsches understeer because of the weight distribution but when that tail comes loose, it brings a lot of weight round with it.



heavychevy said:


> Outdone? By a Nurburgring lap? HAHAHAHAH. When Porsche starts testing on closed courses like Chevy and Nissan you'll see a significant reduction in times, you havent the slightest clue that all of your mag racind means absolutely nothing in real life, a equal drivers in each car (actually trying) and the GT3 will win, and the TT will tie, I'd put money on it.


Quit whinging. There isn't one single course that the 997TT or GT3 have lapped faster than the GTR on to date. If you think you can do better, get out there and beat some of the R35's times and come back with evidence and tell us about it. Until then you're just whinging.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> I have and that was my point. Porsches understeer because of the weight distribution but when that tail comes loose, it brings a lot of weight round with it.
> 
> *What, you completely changed what you said the first time, you were talking about oversteer then and never mentioned understeer, just more proof you dont know what you're talking about*
> 
> ...


LOL what is Whinging? Time will tell, Nissan cant hide the GT-R from the real tests forever.


----------



## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

> Most race teams adding ballast to the front of the car to get more balance and front grip


How much ballast is typically added to the front?


Paul


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

paul__k said:


> How much ballast is typically added to the front?
> 
> 
> Paul


Depends on the Series, most have ballast limits. I have to assume they put as much as possible up front and staying as close to minimum weight as possible. I'd have to talk to some race team guys I know to see what the different series allow. Grand-Am, ALMS, Speed GT would all be different because of sanctioning rules (which change from year to year), and ALMS runs the RSR while Rolex and Speed GT run the Cup Cars, so the rules are likely very different.


I have heard of up to 150 max ballast in some series though. I assume max for porsche.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> What, you completely changed what you said the first time, you were talking about oversteer then and never mentioned understeer, just more proof you dont know what you're talking about.


No, I was quite specific from the start. Porsche don’t understeer under normal circumstances due to a 38:62 front:rear weight distribution. However, swing them from side to side and you may un-seat the back-end leading to violent oversteer. I’ve seen lots of Porsches crashed through oversteer and not one through understeer. Maybe that’s just chance huh? I assumed that was what Blow Dog was referring to, as he knows his Porsches, but it appears that he just had a brain fart. 




heavychevy said:


> LOL what is Whinging? Time will tell, Nissan cant hide the GT-R from the real tests forever.


Time will tell as always, but until then all the evidence says GTR >> 997TT ~ GT3. 

“Real tests”? Because the Nurburgring was a fake test? Best Motoring aren’t the only guys to have lapped Tsukuba, Suzuka and Fuji. Nobody has beaten the GTR’s times on these tracks in a 997TT or GT3, not even close. The Nurburgring times are closer because the Porsche times were set by a guy who spends all day everyday driving that circuit in Porsches.

Feel free to come back when your real tests have been conducted. What constitutes a ‘real test’ for you? Asking a footballer’s wife which they prefer?


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> No, I was quite specific from the start. Porsche don’t understeer under normal circumstances due to a 38:62 front:rear weight distribution. However, swing them from side to side and you may un-seat the back-end leading to violent oversteer. I’ve seen lots of Porsches crashed through oversteer and not one through understeer. Maybe that’s just chance huh? I assumed that was what Blow Dog was referring to, as he knows his Porsches, but it appears that he just had a brain fart. ?


Wow, this just keeps getting better. Are you actually reading what you are typing? "Porsche doesnt understeer due to rear weigh bias" have you no clue about simple physics. How mant cars HAVE you seen crash due to understeer?  

Cars light on the front end lack front traction and therefore understeer, cars light on the rear end can simply be turning and lose traction without throttle application, which is called oversteer. Porsches are some of the worse understeering cars there are, and I'm not talking about power understeer or oversteer either (if you even know what that is).

Not many cars ever crash from understeer, which is why many cars come from the factory with dialed in understeer for safety. Most all crashes happen, front, rear or mid engine, from oversteer when it's the drivers fault. You lose it one way, overcorrect and the back end comes back around and snaps on you, it can happen in ANY car, but happens more so in Porsches if you cant get the initial loss of traction gathered up. But snap oversteer is a thing of the past in Porsches.



R33_GTS-t said:


> Time will tell as always, but until then all the evidence says GTR >> 997TT ~ GT3.
> 
> “Real tests”? Because the Nurburgring was a fake test? Best Motoring aren’t the only guys to have lapped Tsukuba, Suzuka and Fuji. Nobody has beaten the GTR’s times on these tracks in a 997TT or GT3, not even close. The Nurburgring times are closer because the Porsche times were set by a guy who spends all day everyday driving that circuit in Porsches.
> 
> Feel free to come back when your real tests have been conducted. What constitutes a ‘real test’ for you? Asking a footballer’s wife which they prefer?


You continue to overlook the important facts, like the fact that the Porsche are tested on days with several manufacturers on track, and Walter has to pass several cars on every lap. The TT was tested on much worse tires and I would put money the GT3 would be faster still with no traffic and real MPSC no the rain tires that come from the factory. BM are the only pro drivers who have lapped at those tracks. We'll see how the pendulum swings outside of Nissan and the worthless tests of best motoring.

You are again only showing that you have little knowledge of the topic at hand and you're only going by magazines with no propensity to put 2 and 2 together for yourself. I will no longer waist my time trying to convince you. If the GT-R is better in your opinion, good for you, but a little knowledge of motorsports will make you a bit more advanced than the average fanboy. you should try it.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Heavychevy,

Welcome to this forum. 

As you are new and probably don't know too many characters on here, please don't feel the need to debate anything with R33_GTS-t. He is just a sad individual that argues just to hear his own voice.

Everyone who comes up against him, normally just get bored and unsubscribes to the threads. I suggest you might consider doing the same.
After all how can you educate someone who has personally "*seen lots of Porsches crashed *_through oversteer and not one through understeer_"
Yes, maybe he is an avid Turbo Cup series fan and seen lots of Porsche crashes.....................................but somehow I doubt it. You know what I am getting at. 

Anyway, please stay around. We enjoy input from owners of other marques. We aren't all a bunch of fanboys.


----------



## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

I'm new to this forum, as my dad who had an '85 Porsche Turbo sold it and has now bought a '90 GTR32.

Loved the Porsche, but feel the GTR is on a different level. Suppose this is to be expected, as it is a much newer design and I believe that it and the NSX were instrumental in making Porsches the great cars they are today. They raised the game, so Porsche, Ferrari etc pulled out the stops to improve their cars.

Nissan, in making the GTR35 has done all us car fans a favour, as whilst the current Porsches appear to be superb machines, Porsche, with all these comparisons being drawn, will knuckle down and make them even better!

I have been in an early 996 tt and thought that was superb, the 997tt is supposed to be a rung higher. Nissan have made it a design criteria to make the GTR35 faster than what they consider the best useable sports car, the 997tt.

Bear in mind that all road cars are compromised - 911's need neg camber at the front to quell understeer, but if used on the road, they will wear their inside front tyres excessively, and as they are designed to be safe road cars they are left with this understeer. We don't know how compromised or not the latest GTR is. I for one would rather it be a little slower round a track if the front tyres only lasted 2000 miles!

Cheers,


----------



## maximum6 (Jan 19, 2008)

Porsche is best!

One of the smallest displacement with big hp even without Turbos.

Able to build the car to handle great even with the unusual weight in the rear.

Porsche has to be the best German car company in my oppinion


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

NISFAN said:


> Heavychevy,
> 
> Welcome to this forum.
> 
> ...



Well said, and I will do. I appreciate the sentiment. I have noticed a much better balance of people who are knowledgeable about motorsports than what is found on some other sites. I do love technical talk that isnt blinded by brand loyalty, as current owner of Porsche (TT) and Corvette, former owner of BMW (M5), and future owner of Viper, I love em all, but I will speak up no matter where it is when people are acting in ignorance. If I had met the people here instead of some of the ones I have, my experience with learning about the GT-R would have been much more pleasant.

:thumbsup:


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

heavychevy said:


> Cars light on the front end lack front traction and therefore understeer, cars light on the rear end can simply be turning and lose traction without throttle application, which is called oversteer. Porsches are some of the worse understeering cars there are, and I'm not talking about power understeer or oversteer either (if you even know what that is).
> 
> Not many cars ever crash from understeer, which is why many cars come from the factory with dialed in understeer for safety. Most all crashes happen, front, rear or mid engine, from oversteer when it's the drivers fault. You lose it one way, overcorrect and the back end comes back around and snaps on you, it can happen in ANY car, but happens more so in Porsches if you cant get the initial loss of traction gathered up. But snap oversteer is a thing of the past in Porsches.


The above is not 100% true is it sir. A FWD car with lots of weight over the front axle will understeer badly. Ask any diesel owners (unless they happen to have Mercs or BMWs).

A RWD car with a light back-end will oversteer. A 4WD or more so FWD car is a different kettle of fish.

I would also say that I've seen plenty of people crash from understeer. The reasoning behind having a neutral to understeering trait in cars is because understeer is easier to recover than oversteer. When a car is understeering braking still works etc etc etc. When you're revolving up the road those things are more difficult. Likewise people's natural reaction to understeer is to steer more which helps (sort of). Do that if you're oversteering...

With the majority of the econoboxes in the marketplace at the moment you'd be hard pressed to get them to oversteer. Why? Because they're FWD. I'd challenge you to find many people who crash through oversteer. Race track excepted.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Cris said:


> The above is not 100% true is it sir. A FWD car with lots of weight over the front axle will understeer badly. Ask any diesel owners (unless they happen to have Mercs or BMWs).
> 
> A RWD car with a light back-end will oversteer. A 4WD or more so FWD car is a different kettle of fish.
> 
> ...


My statement is true, I said Porsches are "SOME" of the worst understeering cars. Even the Porsche 911 race teams have problems with it. I know about FWD cars, but they arent the topic of discussion so I left them out. And that is also the reason I noted power understeer, which is more likely to occur in FWD cars, and not simply due to weight balance. There are differences.

Now what is not true is that understeer is corrected by more steering input, because it's not, it gets worse with more steering input as you have already crossed the threshold of grip for the slip angle of the front tires, so in essence you are only compounding the problem because the front tires are past their limit. And are you saying more steering input if you are oversteering? I sure hope not, that would be countersteer.

It is true that understeer is safer, but ALL high hp cars have understeer dialed in, dont be surprised to find it in the GT-R as well, Vipers, Corvettes. 

I'm confused on your last paragraph, are you talking about FWD oversteering, or all cars. You HAVE to be kidding if you dont think oversteer is the biggest factor in driver mistake accidents. Getting on the gas too early is the main culprit, and if you've been around tracking enough I dont need to explain that any further.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

I can think of plenty of cars which understeer worse than 911s. Drive most of the Audi range for example.

My point about FWD cars was because of your misleading statement about weight distribution. They have front bias weight distribution yet always understeer. I cannot think of a FWD car which doesn't understeer. I can think of a few with lift off oversteer mind.

You stated that not many cars crash from understeer. More crash from understeer than oversteer. Do you know how hard it is to get a the majority of cars to oversteer? Short of using the handbrake you'll be hard pressed to get the back end out.

RWD performance cars are (unfortunately) not the norm. Most cars are FWD and front engined. They understeer.

I should add that the majority of 4WD front engined cars also naturally understeer. Look at most Subarus and Audis. I'm very happy to concede that a 4WD car with a rear power bias will be more likely to oversteer.

BTW I'm guessing that you might be from the US. If so over here countersteer is initially steering in the opposite direction to the chosen direction before steering the right way. A mild Scandinavian flick if you like. Does tracking mean driving round a track? If so that would be why I said race track excepted.

As is always they way there has to be an exception to every rule. You'll struggle to find any understeer in a TVR!

Nice to speak to you.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Cris said:


> I can think of plenty of cars which understeer worse than 911s. Drive most of the Audi range for example.
> 
> My point about FWD cars was because of your misleading statement about weight distribution. They have front bias weight distribution yet always understeer. I cannot think of a FWD car which doesn't understeer. I can think of a few with lift off oversteer mind.
> 
> ...


The AWD Audi's understeer more, but there arent many RWD cars that will understeer more than a 911 GT2, GT3, and hence the reason I differentiated it from power understeer. The GT2 and GT3 understeer/bump steer because of lack of weight on the front end.

I am only talking about Porsches here as I have lots of experience in them, there are other cars that understeer, I have mentioned already, but the reason for Porsches understeer is as I've stated. What you are talking about has nothing to do with my statement because I never mentioned the dynamics of anything other than Porsche.

You need to understand POWER UNDERSTEER! This is why FWD car understeer, because they are putting the power down on the front wheels which reduces front grip threshold, just like rwd power oversteer for the same reason. 

LOL more cars crash from understeer, LOL. Maybe in europe but I've never seen understeer cause a crash. I'm not talking about normal street cars, because that is hardly ever the performance oriented board topic that is centered around the performance of the every day drivers. The fact is that RWD runs the track period, and FWD and even AWD are hardly found in racing. 


I think we are missing each other somewhere in this conversation, anyone else care to chime in?


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Ive not read this whole thing in detail, but i noticed a few things.

A light back end doesnt help a RWD oversteer. Might help POWER oversteer, but the total opposite otherwise.

And countersteer doesnt mean a mild scandinavian flick in any contry, ever. Its purely steering against the oversteer to stop it spinning out.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

SteveN said:


> Ive not read this whole thing in detail, but i noticed a few things.
> 
> A light back end doesnt help a RWD oversteer. Might help POWER oversteer, but the total opposite otherwise.
> 
> And countersteer doesnt mean a mild scandinavian flick in any contry, ever. Its purely steering against the oversteer to stop it spinning out.



You dont have much experience in corvettes and vipers then, I can take a turn at 50 in my C5 and turn the wheel and it will oversteer with no throttle application at all, and because they are light on the back end, I'm not saying this from reading it, I'm saying it from experience. I've nearly crashed because of this before.

Again, everything is based on comparison, I can take allmost any turn in my TT and as long as I dont hit the gas there is almost no speed that I can get it to oversteer off momentum. Rear end heavy vs rear end light. 

Taking power steer dynamics out of the equation, everything else is about the balance of the car. The Porsche RSR's have been suffering from mid corner push which was the reason Ferrari spanked them in Lemans and ALMS in 07. And these are race cars. There is no amount of convincing you can do that will say that if the 911 could have a 50/50 weight ratio the additional downforce and likely ballast that has been added wouldnt have been neccessary. The rear weigh bias is the problem, there is NO doubt about it.
Hence the reason some people are calling for Porsche to race the Cayman. Because it has better balance.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

SteveN said:


> And countersteer doesnt mean a mild scandinavian flick in any contry, ever. Its purely steering against the oversteer to stop it spinning out.


Yes countersteering is steering in the opposite direction prior to turning the right direction.

2 seconds with google:

Countersteering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What is countersteering?

Turning into a slide is usually known as (applying) opposite lock.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

heavychevy said:


> You need to understand POWER UNDERSTEER! This is why FWD car understeer, because they are putting the power down on the front wheels which reduces front grip threshold, just like rwd power oversteer for the same reason.
> 
> LOL more cars crash from understeer, LOL. Maybe in europe but I've never seen understeer cause a crash. I'm not talking about normal street cars, because that is hardly ever the performance oriented board topic that is centered around the performance of the every day drivers. The fact is that RWD runs the track period, and FWD and even AWD are hardly found in racing.


I understand power understeer thank you. My point stands a heavy front biased FWD car will not oversteer. The only way you'll unstick the rear end is by playing with the weight distribution by using the throttle or brakes.

For accidents I see you were talking about racing when (as I stated) I wasn't.

The lack of 4WD cars in racing has more to do with rules than it does with what is best. I seem to remember a certain 4WD car doing rather well in racing before it was excluded from the series in which it ran. I'm not talking about the Audi touring cars either.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Cris said:


> I understand power understeer thank you. My point stands a heavy front biased FWD car will not oversteer. The only way you'll unstick the rear end is by playing with the weight distribution by using the throttle or brakes.
> 
> For accidents I see you were talking about racing when (as I stated) I wasn't.
> 
> The lack of 4WD cars in racing has more to do with rules than it does with what is best. I seem to remember a certain 4WD car doing rather well in racing before it was excluded from the series in which it ran. I'm not talking about the Audi touring cars either.


I understand your point but it has nothing to do with the original topic. In this case reverse dynamics are not applicable. You are using my statement that rear bias causes understeer to assume that front bias causes oversteer, and that's not all accurate. Then you throw in FWD which I said nothing about and muddy the waters even more. 

Removing Power Steer again (meaning not talking about power understeer or oversteer but only weight balance as it affects handling), it is simple to see that a rear biased car will have weight shifted to the rear of the car under accleration which generally begins before apex, causing the front end to become even lighter than it already is and not enough force on the front tires for adequate traciton. Conversely a front biased FWD car will not follow the same principal because the weight transfer to the rear of the vehicle acutally offsets the deficiency by adding weight to where there is a lack of it, the rear of the car. But if your car is light enough and a sports car you can turn and have the car oversteer on it's own regardless of if it FWD or RWD as in my example of the corvette. 

Driving on the street is irrelevant to any of my points.


As far as AWD in racing, AWD is another electronic aid, and the emphasis in racing is driver ability and making the field of level competition. This is why many of the top level groups dont have ABS, or TC. AWD only provides consitancy in changing conditions. A couple of ancient racing series is hardly enough to show AWD as anything other than another mechanical aid to mask driving skill. I take mine out occasionally just to test myself though it is already set up to handle like a RWD car.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Wow, this just keeps getting better. Are you actually reading what you are typing? "Porsche doesnt understeer due to rear weigh bias" have you no clue about simple physics. How mant cars HAVE you seen crash due to understeer?


I meant that the other way round. Should have read 'oversteer'. Should have been obvious from the context of the discussion and my previous post. It doesn't oversteer naturally due to the weight bias but it violently oversteers when that rear weight does come loose if unsettled through rapid right-left turns. Are you even following this conversation?



heavychevy said:


> Cars light on the front end lack front traction and therefore understeer, cars light on the rear end can simply be turning and lose traction without throttle application, which is called oversteer. Porsches are some of the worse understeering cars there are, and I'm not talking about power understeer or oversteer either (if you even know what that is).


Oh god, you're going to explain physics to me now. Maybe you can explain relativity to Einstein while you're at it. As I've said, if you'd been following the posts, you would see that my argument has never been that Porsches oversteer naturally in a one-off bend. However, when unsettled they swing losse with far more weight than most other cars.



heavychevy said:


> Not many cars ever crash from understeer, which is why many cars come from the factory with dialed in understeer for safety. Most all crashes happen, front, rear or mid engine, from oversteer when it's the drivers fault. You lose it one way, overcorrect and the back end comes back around and snaps on you, it can happen in ANY car, but happens more so in Porsches if you cant get the initial loss of traction gathered up. But snap oversteer is a thing of the past in Porsches.


Wow, at last you've agreed the point I was making right from the start. Jesus, that saved another 40-pager.



heavychevy said:


> You continue to overlook the important facts, like the fact that the Porsche are tested on days with several manufacturers on track, and Walter has to pass several cars on every lap. The TT was tested on much worse tires and I would put money the GT3 would be faster still with no traffic and real MPSC no the rain tires that come from the factory. BM are the only pro drivers who have lapped at those tracks. We'll see how the pendulum swings outside of Nissan and the worthless tests of best motoring.


Bull. Despite Headquarters in the same country, Porsche have never managed to get a lap in the same conditions that Nissan ran in? Utter bull. Next you'll be saying that the GT2 would make 7min20s with a traffic-free lap.



heavychevy said:


> You are again only showing that you have little knowledge of the topic at hand and you're only going by magazines with no propensity to put 2 and 2 together for yourself. I will no longer waist my time trying to convince you. If the GT-R is better in your opinion, good for you, but a little knowledge of motorsports will make you a bit more advanced than the average fanboy. you should try it.


You're right, the world's motoring press are conspiring against Porsche (having heaped praise on it for x number of decades).


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Cris said:


> Yes countersteering is steering in the opposite direction prior to turning the right direction.
> 
> 2 seconds with google:
> 
> ...


Lol. Trust me, countersteering in car terms is applying opposite lock. It even says that on the Wikipedia one really, as it links to an opposite lock page related to CARS.

Both your links to MOTORBIKE stuff. Car terms and techniques and bike terms and techniques arnt the same...

What you gonna talk about next? Getting your knee down in a Skyline? Doing an endo?


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Bull. Despite Headquarters in the same country, Porsche have never managed to get a lap in the same conditions that Nissan ran in? Utter bull. Next you'll be saying that the GT2 would make 7min20s with a traffic-free lap.
> 
> 
> You're right, the world's motoring press are conspiring against Porsche (having heaped praise on it for x number of decades).


Porsche only gave Walter Rohrl an open lap day in the CGT because he said the car was too dangerous and wouldnt drive it any more if they didnt as he was passing cars way too fast. He passed 11 cars on the GT2's 7:32 run and 5 on the GT3's 7:42 run. And he does it right in the face of ALL the other manufacturers on their testing days so Audi, BMW, Mercedes and everyone could see it for themselves. When you test in the face of your adversaries why is there ned for a global video, but they do have one just in case.

BM conspires against anything that isnt Japanese, occasionally they'll favor another make and model, but it's well known you can only take their results as a grain of salt. You seem to be one of the few that actually buys their results as legit performance comparisons. The 997 Turbo ran a 1:04.1 (2.2 seconds slower than the modded GT-R) a few weeks prior on shot tires sliding and drifting all over the place, and now runs a WHOLE 2.2 seconds slower in qualifying (1:06.33) ????? And without one slide anywhere??? And this guy is pro too?????? And it ran vs the GT-R that had race seats and that was considered stock vs stock? You must not know much about car modifications, that GT-R probably lost 100 lbs with those race seats alone

Then a 280 hp NSX runs toe to toe with a 997 GT3. Let's find somewhere OTHER than Japan where you will get occurances like these. The guys in the Porsche were not trying what-so-ever, no tire squeal, no mid corner corrections, no nothing.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

SteveN said:


> Lol. Trust me, countersteering in car terms is applying opposite lock. It even says that on the Wikipedia one really, as it links to an opposite lock page related to CARS.
> 
> Both your links to MOTORBIKE stuff. Car terms and techniques and bike terms and techniques arnt the same...
> 
> What you gonna talk about next? Getting your knee down in a Skyline? Doing an endo?


I agree, countersteer is simply turning the wheel in the direction opposite of where you are going to correct a loss off rear end traction. I have heard to people refer to it as opposite lock, but more so in drifting. Countersteering is more quick movements and opposite lock is a more extreme measure of coutnersteer.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

SteveN said:


> ......Doing an endo?


No no no, you can only do an endo on a pushbike, if it's got an engine it's a stoppie  

None the less the point stands that it more difficult to deal with oversteer and very few road cars will produce oversteer without throttle/brake use.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

heavychevy said:


> Then a 280 hp NSX runs toe to toe with a 997 GT3. Let's find somewhere OTHER than Japan where you will get occurances like these. The guys in the Porsche were not trying what-so-ever, no tire squeal, no mid corner corrections, no nothing.


Without defending the video in any way bear in mind that it's highly unlikely that the NSX had 280bhp.

Over it's life the NSX went through a number of updates (30->3.2) and got measurably quicker yet the power-output was always listed as 280bhp (287PS for the Japanese market restriction I think). The Skyline was the same with R32-34 all supposedly having the same power-output though torque was increased through-out the rev range.

I seem to remember reading CAR (might have been another) and the journo at the launch of the R34 asking how if the R34 made more torque all the time than the R33 it didn't make more power. The Nissan engineer replied only more torque same power. Clearly sand-bagging.

We'll see what the actuality is over the coming months.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Porsche only gave Walter Rohrl an open lap day in the CGT because he said the car was too dangerous and wouldnt drive it any more if they didnt as he was passing cars way too fast. He passed 11 cars on the GT2's 7:32 run and 5 on the GT3's 7:42 run. And he does it right in the face of ALL the other manufacturers on their testing days so Audi, BMW, Mercedes and everyone could see it for themselves. When you test in the face of your adversaries why is there ned for a global video, but they do have one just in case.


Oh yeah? Well I heard that the GTR had to perform an emergency stop when a group of toddlers ran across the track and also had to punt 14 Fiat Pandas into the forest. Hearsay and conjecture. You see this:

YouTube - Nissan GT-R runs a 7:38 at Nurburgring

^Actual lap. Partially wet. Now you. Video footage or STFU.



heavychevy said:


> BM conspires against anything that isnt Japanese, occasionally they'll favor another make and model, but it's well known you can only take their results as a grain of salt. You seem to be one of the few that actually buys their results as legit performance comparisons.


Whoa, nobody said they were legit comparisons. Well before they ran that race the R35 had already smashed any lap records set by the 997TT on Tsukuba, Suzuka and Fuji. It came to Germany and beat you, then it went home and beat you. No matter how many times the R35 triumphs, people like you will always find an excuse and then, if you actually run out of excuses, you'll insult the interior or looks or badge.

FACT: The R35 is cheaper and faster than the 997TT and GT3.



heavychevy said:


> The 997 Turbo ran a 1:04.1 (2.2 seconds slower than the modded GT-R) a few weeks prior on shot tires sliding and drifting all over the place, and now runs a WHOLE 2.2 seconds slower in qualifying (1:06.33) ????? And without one slide anywhere??? And this guy is pro too?????? And it ran vs the GT-R that had race seats and that was considered stock vs stock? You must not know much about car modifications, that GT-R probably lost 100 lbs with those race seats alone.


The GTR was not modified. A 1:02 isn't even the fastest lap by a stock R35. I believe it's made at least 1:01.X, maybe a 1:00.X. Can anyone help with a link here? 



heavychevy said:


> Then a 280 hp NSX runs toe to toe with a 997 GT3. Let's find somewhere OTHER than Japan where you will get occurances like these. The guys in the Porsche were not trying what-so-ever, no tire squeal, no mid corner corrections, no nothing.


So maybe the NSX-R vs GT3 was an anomaly. But don't overlook the fact that in reality the NSX-R has 300+bhp and weighs 1270kg kerb weight vs ~1500kg for the GT3 (1395kg dry weight). The NSX-R has better weight distribution also. Then look at the length of the gearing on the GT3 relative to the NSX-R vs a tight track. Did BM sandbag? Maybe but possibly not by as much as you think.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

NISFAN said:


> Heavychevy,
> 
> Welcome to this forum.
> 
> ...


You need to check out 6speedonline before spouting garbage.


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Oh yeah? Well I heard that the GTR had to perform an emergency stop when a group of toddlers ran across the track and also had to punt 14 Fiat Pandas into the forest. Hearsay and conjecture. You see this:
> 
> YouTube - Nissan GT-R runs a 7:38 at Nurburgring
> 
> ^Actual lap. Partially wet. Now you. Video footage or STFU..


Hmmmm, let me see how many makes need footage of their runs for people to believe them,...............................................................................
....................................................................................................

I can only think of one, yep you guessed it, the same ones that claimed the car ran sub 8:00 with less power than it really had, and then claimed the Z-Tune ran 10.1 or was it 10.0 in the 1/4 mile with 600 hp AHAHAHAHHAHAH

Just because some people's integrity has been drug through the mud and they have to go the extra mile doesnt mean that people who test year in and year out and have other MANUFACTURERS there to see that the car IS STOCK, and not just an incar video, which in effect prooves only that the car ran the time NOT that it was stock. Seems like most people do just fine putting their word on the line and letting the people who buy the cars speak for them. You'll have to try a little better than that.


Pwnage for 1000 Alex.






R33_GTS-t said:


> Whoa, nobody said they were legit comparisons. Well before they ran that race the R35 had already smashed any lap records set by the 997TT on Tsukuba, Suzuka and Fuji. It came to Germany and beat you, then it went home and beat you. No matter how many times the R35 triumphs, people like you will always find an excuse and then, if you actually run out of excuses, you'll insult the interior or looks or badge..


But the problem with that is that Nissan couldnt even beat it with themselves.  What happened when Nissan tested them head to head in the states? 1-1 if I recall correctly. Nissan beat Porsche at testing, they didnt make a better car. But you cant see past the magazines.



R33_GTS-t said:


> FACT: The R35 is cheaper and faster than the 997TT and GT3.


Not so much a fact now is it? Especially when adding racing seats is still considered stock by the fanboys. So I guess racing brake fluid and cut slicks are stock too, and what other MODS are actually not MODS? RACING SEATS ARE RACING SEATS!!!!!! Negative 70-100 lbs from full power seats to carbon fiber ones. That mod alone got the GT-R into the 1:01.9 from mid - low 1:02's, yet not considered a mod????? That makes sense now doesnt it?




R33_GTS-t said:


> The GTR was not modified. A 1:02 isn't even the fastest lap by a stock R35. I believe it's made at least 1:01.X, maybe a 1:00.X. Can anyone help with a link here?



Racing Seats are not modifications huh? Ask anyone who races/tracks their car how much of a difference racing seats can make to a car, then come back and try that line again. You dont know what you're talking about and it's painfully obvious.




But as I've been advised to do, I'm going to leave you to your ignorance. Have fun knowing nothing.


----------



## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

heavychevy said:


> Hmmmm, let me see how many makes need footage of their runs for people to believe them,...............................................................................
> ....................................................................................................
> 
> I can only think of one, yep you guessed it, the same ones that claimed the car ran sub 8:00 with less power than it really had, and then claimed the Z-Tune ran 10.1 or was it 10.0 in the 1/4 mile with 600 hp AHAHAHAHHAHAH
> ...


You're pointing stupid arguments. You really think that Nissan would develop a car during 6 years and then fake the lap times. Grow up dude! This is engineering, not your childish play thing... "Your mother this.... your mother that...". And you seem to completely forget the fact that they're japanese, they're NOT american!


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

thb_da_one said:


> You're pointing stupid arguments. You really think that Nissan would develop a car during 6 years and then fake the lap times. Grow up dude! This is engineering, not your childish play thing... "Your mother this.... your mother that...". And you seem to completely forget the fact that they're japanese, they're NOT american!


LOL, what is that supposed to mean? The americans havent been claiming 10.0 seconds 1/4 miles with 600 hp now have we? I didnt say they faked it, I said and have always maintained that the video is not fullproof, and neither will anyone elses IN CAR video be.


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

R33_GTS-t said:


> FACT: The R35 is cheaper and faster than the 997TT and GT3.


Yes, yes it is. Amazingly faster - can't wait to drive it 
The NSX is still horsecrap though. I think that's typical Japanses propaganda.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> Yes, yes it is. Amazingly faster - can't wait to drive it


Only a complete fool would disagree on that.


----------



## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

I recon you guys all underestimate the NSX-r far too much. Its a bloody fast car. Dont forget weight is the enemy of both handling and braking, not just acceleration...... 200+kg is alot of weight to drag around a track!

At the end of the day the only way any of the cars can be proven to be the fastest is if they are tested on the same track with the same driver on the same hour. Until someone does that - there is no way to compare.

At the end of the day though - its clear that the GTR is fast enough, and well built enough to put the 911 turbo in big trouble..... how can you justify an extra £40k list price? Maybe you guys should put the GT-R against it's cost rivals? I mean put it against a 911 Carrera on track........who is going to win?

Butuz


----------



## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Butuz said:


> At the end of the day though - its clear that the GTR is fast enough, and well built enough to put the 911 turbo in big trouble..... how can you justify an extra £40k list price?
> 
> Butuz


The same people that will still buy a Ferrari F430 even though the Porsche Turbo, Chevy Corvette and Dodge Viper are faster. It's more than just about performance. How about service? You really think this small network of dealers is going to satisfy many customers who have to do these frequent services and may not have a dealer in the area? People who care about performance only buy Nissan, Chevy, Mustang, Evo, WRX, Honda. But for many, that just isnt going to cut it.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Well HeavyBeaver, I've changed my mind completely and will immediately sell a house so that I can buy a 997TT with a private plate reading 'A1 NOB'. Life is about far more than value-for-money after all. Maybe I'll buy one of those £20k platinum Nokias as well and some diamond encrusted horse shite.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

R33_GTS-t said:


> FACT: The R35 is cheaper and faster than the 997TT and GT3.


So does that make SR3/SR8 Radicals better than both of them by your definition? 

And sorry to piss on your parade, but some interesting info has turned up about the 7:38 lap............It was done on cut slicks. 



> 7.38* -- 161.63 km/h -- Nissan R35 GT-R, *company test driver Suzuki, slick cut tyres, track partially wet


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Where is that quoted from?


----------



## ajmgtr (Feb 7, 2008)

NISFAN said:


> So does that make SR3/SR8 Radicals better than both of them by your definition?
> 
> And sorry to piss on your parade, but some interesting info has turned up about the 7:38 lap............It was done on cut slicks.


It appears your numbers come form this page:
Nurburgring Track Times - Supercars.net

funny how you neglect to mention that there are these 2 lines as well:

7.39* -- 161.58 km/h -- Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1395 kg, *mfr. (quote sport auto 05/06)

7:40 --- 161.22 km/h -- Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/ ??? kg, *Michelin Cup Sport tyres (Motortrend)*[/B]

I just think you should present all the info if youre going to try and put the slick tires as a reason why the gtr ran quicker


----------



## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

NISFAN said:


> And sorry to piss on your parade, but some interesting info has turned up about the 7:38 lap............It was done on cut slicks.


Really? Are you sure? Or did you just read a web forum and take it as gospel?










Butuz


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

I don't care what times the Porsches ran, I'm not a fanboy of either marque. I just have a problem with a manufacturers claimed lap time in a development mule car, suggesting the showroom floor model will do the same.

Funny how the fastest independant (motoring mag) times for the new GTR is 7:50. Admittedly on a partially damp track, but that is light years away from a 7:38. They said that a 7:40 would be a very optimistic time.


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

The 7:38 run was on the Bridgestone run-flats - the "cut slicks" quote is apparently a bad translation of Nissan's Mizuno saying that they could have gone faster on different tyres.

I think it's inconceivable that Goshn would lie about the lap time. As for other people matching it, that's a different matter. It's academic in any case.

Phil


----------



## ajmgtr (Feb 7, 2008)

Again, if we're to compare Sport Auto fast laps for the cars, the turbo gets a 

7:54 --- 156.46 km/h -- Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/1620 kg (sport auto 06/07)

Fastest Sport Auto time, or non motoring mag time, for the turbo.

No one is calling you a fan boy, but you did present the info about the gt-r to counter the other guys arguments about the lap time of the nissan being better than the porsche. Im simply saying if youre going to do that, just be fair and list the other info which is just a couple lines down as well (same things with the above sport auto time)

I agree that its pretty stupid that they quote times on non stock tires, but then again, it seems lots of other companies do so as well.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Fair enough. I'm still going to buy an R8.


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

NISFAN said:


> I'm still going to buy an R8.


Make sure you get those stupid fairy lights turned off.

Phil


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

NISFAN said:


> So does that make SR3/SR8 Radicals better than both of them by your definition?


No roof, no aircon, doesn't have 4 seats, not road legal in many European countries, can't cross speed-humps and would probably break it's suspension over the majority of poorly maintained UK roads. Let's stick to comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges.



NISFAN said:


> And sorry to piss on your parade, but some interesting info has turned up about the 7:38 lap............It was done on cut slicks.


No it wasn't. That BS has been circulating for ages now. It has already been disproved. Get up-to-date FFS.



NISFAN said:


> Fair enough. I'm still going to buy an R8.


Good for you. They're a nice looking and sounding car. See. Not altogether a biased fanboy am I. I've probably posted more R8 threads in the other marques section than anybody.

Love the PPI job:

PPI Audi R8 Razor Debuts










I just can't stand BSing Porsche clowns.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

ajmgtr said:


> Again, if we're to compare Sport Auto fast laps for the cars, the turbo gets a
> 
> 7:54 --- 156.46 km/h -- Porsche 997 Turbo, 480 PS/1620 kg (sport auto 06/07)


That's a whole 14 seconds off. The 7:40 must be a lie.:chuckle: ...or not.

It's a very long lap. Small errors add, shit happens. 12 seconds is about 2.5%, or 1.5 seconds at the likes of Tsukuba, and everyone knows that pro driver times have varied by around that amount at Tsukuba.


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

R33_GTS-t said:


> It's a very long lap. Small errors add, shit happens.


It's more that there are varying points of timing laps. 

Phil


----------



## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Philip said:


> It's more that there are varying points of timing laps.
> 
> Phil



If you look at the 'official' video the timing is taken from the correct points. I can't imagine anyone trying a fast lap wouldn't know where to time from and to.


----------



## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

NISFAN said:


> And sorry to piss on your parade, but some interesting info has turned up about the 7:38 lap............It was done on cut slicks.


To corroborate, cut slicks were not used. That began circulating soon after Pistonheads misquoted Mizuo's original interview. The tires were factory issue.


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Howsie said:


> If you look at the 'official' video the timing is taken from the correct points. I can't imagine anyone trying a fast lap wouldn't know where to time from and to.


The 7:38 video appears to be timed at the same points the Sport Auto Supertests are - I was pointing out that the usual internet lists of times trotted out are of dubious reliability.

Phil


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

This thread has done a great job of bringing out all the Porsches moles. Just as planned.


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Just to clarify:


----------



## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

^^^ I like your thinking


----------



## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Just to clarify:


:chuckle:


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Didn't she then go on to kill every other person on the entire movie?


----------



## Pharoahe (Mar 11, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Didn't she then go on to kill every other person on the entire movie?


lol yes she did :flame:


----------



## diddy_p (Oct 5, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Didn't she then go on to kill every other person on the entire movie?


LOL


----------



## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Great thread . . . I took time to regroup the main opinion of the posters in this thread.

At the end every body agrees, that the GTR is the fastest car in the world, every thing else is crap . . .ahh wait , there`s the NSX , wich is second fastest car in the world.
Blowdog just told me , he regret his previous posts and will scrap his german Leberwurst this after noon . All other Porsche owners are also going to be banned, as they not bring any value into the admiration of the GTR. Then Cem will buy every member a new R35GTR with the money he gets from the millions of google ads clicks.

At the end I invite every body to go out and buy an Asahi Super Dry, also buy some chips, seat down, in confort, infront of a poster of the R35 GTR and tell your self you are part of this great achievement . .and if you send enough gentle e-mails to Carlos , he might let you have a blow under his office table as well, which probably is as neckbreaking, as a ride with the R35.


PS: Cem, I will come over and scrape your Carrera GT for you.


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

gtrlux said:


> PS: Cem, I will come over and scrape your Carrera GT for you.


Which one? Or do you mean all 7?


----------



## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Which one? Or do you mean all 7?


No just the Carrera GT, the 3 Veyrons and the 3 Enzos are the ones you can keep.


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

You make me feel so greedy. Now shut the hell up and click on those banners.


----------



## Rostampoor (Nov 20, 2006)

hahaha^


----------



## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> Didn't she then go on to kill every other person on the entire movie?


You're deliberately missing the point again. Pai Mei made her beg for mercy. It was only by giving in to Pai Mei that she was able to go on to succeed. It is this cruel tutelage that we must provide to Porsche drivers. I recommend starting by 1 inch punching their doors.


----------

