# crankshaft question



## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

if you want 1000bhp for the drag strip..is the crankshaft the most crucial part to get right/be the best? Money no object what is the best crankshaft to have? balanced, forged, brand etc etc


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

In my opinion it will be the full package.

The engine IE crank yes is a major part. Which i was blessed with the Jun Auto prototype in the Lemon. Regardless the bad mapping and tuning i had in the past the crank in the Lemon is still like brand new. It even went threw a stage in its life with the wrong size pistons and rods not to support a stroker kit. The very first turn over snapped the oil squirters off and sadly we found out they were still sat in the sump. But still did 202.8mph in a standing mile. With the oil pump grinding a groove in it's self against the crank the remains of the rest of the engine is still in my garage at home. The crank was checked and it was 100% bang on. But what i do know the Jun Billet cranks are very very strong.

As i found out the hard way running 10's and high 9's. Its not all about the power you need the rest of the package as well

So an answer for your question is get the best you can afford.

And go to the right tuner that will not **** you over and charge you well over the odds when they know what they have done.


I am a bit fooked off tonight so here goes. My gear box had the same problem. I payed dunno what for it did 60 miles and sized up because there was not enough oil put in it. Which i am paying the price today waiting 6 fooking months for parts. I am very very fooked off with my old tuners who i gave 100% faith in and fooked me over left right and centre. I got the box back but being the nice fella didn't say anything. But i am happy now to tell who ever wants to know what i had to deal with.

I am not going to mention any names here but you can all judge for ourselves.

Good night from a very very fooked off Mick

Edit to say Thank god for Tweenierob and Perfect Touch and at every given opportunity i will tell the truth about Abbey. This is one person talking now you have fooked right off!!


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

GTRules said:


> if you want 1000bhp for the drag strip..is the crankshaft the most crucial part to get right/be the best? Money no object what is the best crankshaft to have? balanced, forged, brand etc etc


You will always get varying opinions on this and at the end of the day you'll have to make up your own mind.

All I will do here is say what I have personally found with my own engines and you can take from it what you like, mix it with other info you get and go from there.

Your first question is "if you want 1000hp for the dragstrip is the crank the most important part"........No, not even close to being the most important part, the crank is well down the list of prioreties.

If money is no object, you could get a billet crank but I think your trying to find out if it is actually neccessary for a reliable 1000hp engine, the answer is, 100% without question.... No, stock is fine.

Its possible that someone who says you can't run 10s, 9s or even 8s on a stock crank is either trying to sell you something you don't really need or has had failiers in the past which they presumed have come from the crank itself.

Here is a link to a 1350kg full street car with a totally stock crank running 9000rpm, 2 bar boost and 8.7 @ 161mph on the 1/4 with a very gentle launch.

YouTube - RIPS 240z 8.71 @ 161 mph

Rob


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> You will always get varying opinions on this and at the end of the day you'll have to make up your own mind.
> 
> All I will do here is say what I have personally found with my own engines and you can take from it what you like, mix it with other info you get and go from there.
> 
> ...


Rob.

I really relay appreciate your reply to GTRules as its his thread. And i really honestly apologize to GTRules for my sudden outburst. But enough is enough i have never ever spilled the beans as they say till today. RB motorsort can't get bits for my box for 6 fooking months because of some stupid silly ****** who fooked the whole thing up from day one. If anyone wants to know the truth of the Lemon please feel free to PM me i just can not believe how i trusted these people. I am not going to say to much more at this present time as i need a public reply from a member of Abbey motorsport. I will call them tomorrow and see if i can get them to speak in public for what they have done to me. If not then things will go further.


What i will do is give Abbey a choice to speak on the GTR Forum and we can talk openly with everyone. If not then that's it.

Mick


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

they made a simple mistake of NOT filling the gearbox with oil????????? they owe you a new one mate, pure and simple.


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

That's not a simple mistake,that's negligence.


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

i started a good thread here havnt i! lol

what you are saying is the crank isnt the main part to modify to light and strong as doesnt really fail that often but the parts surrounding it? the best thing to upgrade to the best no expence spared is the forged pistons and rods? ok so what advantage would i have using a perfect light forged balanced crank over standard? i want the best of everything!


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

The power is made above the head gasket, you need strength in the bottom end but it has very little to do with making power.

If you have the best of everything you will be well overbuilt for 1000hp.

It is not neccessary to lighten or modify the stock crank, the crank in the engine in the video link above is ground and balanced with a wide oil pump drive only.

The bottom ends are pretty easy once you know the tricks, the best place to spend your money is on the head, manifolds and turbo etc.

1000bhp is not particularly hard to come by these days.

Rob


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

m6beg said:


> In my opinion it will be the full package.
> 
> the Jun Billet cranks are very very strong.


I have just gone for a Jun crankshaft with a standard 73.7 stroke, the weight of this is 21.5g the standard crankshaft weight is around 20g
Tomei crankshaft weight is 24kg


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

thanx for info


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

m6beg said:


> . The very first turn over snapped the oil squirters off and sadly we found out they were still sat in the sump. !



:blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: 



wanna tell me how they fitted the cambelt then ?

the engine needs to be turned over *BY HAND* at which point it would lock up

so your just full of shit Mick


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy W said:


> :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You better ask your mates Andy. lol

Maybe i am full of shit as you say!! But not as much as was sat in the bottom of my sump.

Anyway what what do you know about building engines?



Mick


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Andy W said:


> so your just full of shit Mick


You only just realised that Andy?


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Peter said:


> You only just realised that Andy?


lol


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

m6beg said:


> But not as much as was sat in the bottom of my sump.


Seems things left in the sump would be quite common then


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

this thread needs a better title not many people are going to read this debate lol i think they would all want to!! il keep my opinions to myself, but, big name clients and big name garages...the truth is out there


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

i'm gonna ignore da BS and go with the first post, if money is no object just go to the people who have been there and done that, 

hks japan.

the've done all the hard work all you go to do is buy it and get it installed.


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

i agree but 2k for top notch crank is now a waste of money according to rob


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy W said:


> :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Andy pictures paint a thousand words!!!

Mick


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

or you could just go to Rotorua import pro shop and talk to rob


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

You could snap the oil squirters when turning the engine over by hand and probably not know.

However, when building an engine, you rotate the crank on it's own and then about 20 times when the rods/pistons get put in etc so there is no way you could not know that there was a collision issue before starting it up.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

matt j said:


> Seems things left in the sump would be quite common then



the only common bit i see is its the same garage that keeps finding these 'bits' :clap:


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

GTRules said:


> i agree but 2k for top notch crank is now a waste of money according to rob


Thats not quite what I said.

You have 3 very seperate issues here, 1st is, do you "need" a billet crank for the 1000hp you asked about and IMO the answer is definatly NO.

The 2nd is if money is no object, should you go with billet, in that case, you 'could' if you wanted to.

The 3rd is if you prioretise money where should it go and IMO the crank is well down the list, its not too difficult to build a bottom end for 1000hp with a stock crank.

Also, as Paul has said, not many people realise that these aftermarket billet cranks are usually heavier than stock.

There's also plenty of people around that say you've got to have this and that and they are 'not' running 8s in street cars with all the flash gear.  

It will always come back to opinion and your requirements.

Rob


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Andy W said:


> the only common bit i see is its the same garage that keeps finding these 'bits' :clap:


Funny thing is, 2 separate engineers found the damage and both gave reports, and you said you don't have an axe to grind...
Next time you open your mouth, be sure and change feet :chuckle:


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

I think most people know you need spacers under the oil jets with stroker kits or the jets snap off


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

what does billet mean?  Are titanium rods worth the extra money/more power?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Billet means it's made from a cylinder of stock material as opposed to a casting/forging make closer to the original crank.

Ti rods are a waste of money. Try aluminium!!!!


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## blue32 (Jan 3, 2007)

billet will mean its been machined from one piece.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

:chuckle: nope no axe, i speak as i find. i don't speak about what others say they find


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## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

.....


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy W said:


> :chuckle: nope no axe, i speak as i find. i don't speak about what others say they find


lol you speak a total load of shite. If any one would believe what you say they must be crazy. Every thing you post on here makes you look more stupid than you really are lol. Who the **** do you think you are. My god i have forgotten more than you know Andy and i only do this for the love of it.

Its about time you had a talk to yourself!! You never know you might find some sense in there somewhere. You silly stupid boy.


Mick.


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## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

I'm ashamed i lowered myself to your standards Andy, enough from me.

Rob


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

m6beg said:


> lol you speak a total load of shite. If any one would believe what you say they must be crazy. Every thing you post on here makes you look more stupid than you really are lol. Who the **** do you think you are. My god i have forgotten more than you know Andy and i only do this for the love of it.
> 
> Its about time you had a talk to yourself!! You never know you might find some sense in there somewhere. You silly stupid boy.
> 
> ...


PMSFL i suggest you back to your concreting all you spout is bollox and how much you'd like to suck Rob's ****

so you have a large wallet whoopee doo !! as far as cars go you know **** all Mick, never have done and never will do

the only silly stupid one i see is the one who chucks his toys out the pram after his Abbey Motorsport engined car gets a 9 at the Pod, when told to make it meet safety rules spits his dummy and goes elsewhere

BTW whats the car done since ?


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

tweenierob said:


> I'm ashamed i lowered myself to your standards Andy, enough from me.
> 
> Rob


they never reached them in the first place


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

it's all good, the three quickest skylines reside in good ole new zealand, tis heaven here.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Andy W said:


> :chuckle: nope no axe, i speak as i find. i don't speak about what others say they find


I find it strange how you can say that when you seem so adamant in defending someone who's own engineer found them at fault? Plus your comments questioning the honesty of other tuners who frequent the forum.

As you seem to be appointing yourself as their representative perhaps you'd like to comment further for the record?


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

matt j said:


> As you seem to be appointing yourself as their representative perhaps you'd like to comment further for the record?


not in the slightest, just sick and tired of all the bull, and with having a small idea on how an engine works ... its very easy to see those that don't who are spouting a load of cobblers


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy W said:


> PMSFL i suggest you back to your concreting all you spout is bollox and how much you'd like to suck Rob's ****
> 
> so you have a large wallet whoopee doo !! as far as cars go you know **** all Mick, never have done and never will do
> 
> ...



The car has made me what i paid for it no loss and no gain.

Why should i put a full cage in a road car?

There are other people running quicker times than me with no cage at all.

And the car has done what it was meant to do earn money.

Money makes the world go round. You have none because you are **** at your job. I have loads because i respect the people that respect me. Its a man management thing which you will never understand or your mates.

That's why Tweenierob is the man and you are the little bit of shit in the gutter. Why go to the shit when there is a bar of gold.

You have realy sold yourself tonight lol. A proper pile of shit. hahahahahahaha

Mick


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

LOL Oh dear, i think i'd be more worried if you did like me


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Andy W said:


> not in the slightest, just sick and tired of all the bull, and with having a small idea on how an engine works ... its very easy to see those that don't who are spouting a load of cobblers


If you are sick and tired then turn the other way, ignore it as it doesn't affect you, or does it? Do you stand to gain from your posts? Perhaps favours or financial reward?
You are turning away from the subject matter now there is written evidence so why can't you do the same when someone in your opinion 'spouts a load of cobblers'?
As we all know there are 2 sides to every story, you are defending one side with little or no facts whilst the majority are defending themselves with hard facts and proof yet you still feel it necessary to have an input.
In reading back, you say you have no reason to be acting as a spokes person yet you constantly attack Mick etc knowing very little which I'm sure you'll agree is the case if you're honest?

If you have nothing constructive to say, may I make the suggestion you say nothing at all. Just my 2p :wavey:


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

If you need me to go further i will start to post pics up if you want Andy.

If i was you i would stop right now before i make you look more stupid than you really are.


Mick


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

last time i saw the car mick it was running fine, then it went to another garage to be worked on who were in your words 'the Daddies' it did a 9 :bowdown1:


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

matt j said:


> Do you stand to gain from your posts? Perhaps favours or financial reward?
> 
> If you have nothing constructive to say, may I make the suggestion you say nothing at all. Just my 2p :wavey:


someone could assume the same about yourself Matt with your posts

perhaps if there wasn't the handfull of mud that landed on the wall to start with, there wouldn't be a handfull to chuck back ?


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy W said:


> last time i saw the car mick it was running fine, then it went to another garage to be worked on who were in your words 'the Daddies' it did a 9 :bowdown1:


Correct Andy.

They sorted the engine out.

And soon to be a low 9 or high 8. I am glad you have sen sense.

Mick


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

Good Lord guys you've totally destroyed this kids thread.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Unfortunatly, it's all to common here. Could have been a good thread too.


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

We we make our drag engines, we go for 2.7ltr. We use the normal crank due to its 20.3kg, its normal 73.7mm stroke allows for faster rotation than the 77.7mm heavier full counter cranks. 
This also provides the least stress for the H beam conrods. We then use a larger piston to give us an increase in torque, 87mm piston so the block is not overbored.
To avoid the block twisting and give it as long a live as possible (3 times the power output) we cement fill it to a certain level to allow the engine to last. Our drag engines are build for speed of rotation and a slight increase in torque. Huge torque is not needed for drag. Fast rotation and top end power is king.

The only full counter engine we use for drag is the HKS 2.8ltr Hi-Deck.
As this engine is as close as you can get to a special drag engine.

For circuit or street cars, that do not require a 10,000rpm limit or to be launched, we use full counter cranks, and bigger bore pistons / Vcam to increase corner acceleration / low down torque.

Rick


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

thanks rick thats perfect! ive heard good things about the trust 2.7 ltr so does the block need to be bored slightly? if it was bored to 3.0 ltr this engine/pistons would give more torque because of bigger surface area etc?

They dont make the trust 2.7 anymore do they but what is the individual kit made of to buy seperate that replicates the drag cars?

I dont want to run 1000bhp but i do want it built for 1000bhp with T51R spl but to run at 600bhp @ 0.8bar!


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

If you want huge torque and low down power an OS Giken RB30 and Vcam.

You cant bore the RB26 to 3.0 without the block becoming weak. 

So your choice is the Nissan RB30 block or OS giken RB30. 
This is what we are advising through testing and other Japan tuners.
Nissan RB30 was NA, the block has no side ribs, thus under high power load, heat and useage, the block can twist. 
The OS Giken is the best of both worlds, It uses a large crank, and normal 86mm pistons with an 86mm stroke (so the block is bored retaining all of its strength) The spacer and longer rods retains a respectable RPM. 

We can make you a full engine, OS Giken RB30, Vcam, Endless head if your interested. will provide you with one of the quickest a to b street engines in the UK.

PM me if your interested.


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## WIT BLITZ (Apr 1, 2007)

And Rick restores calm yay:squintdan :bowdown1:
Btw Rick what about the GT or "RRR" block?


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

GTRules said:


> thanks rick thats perfect! ive heard good things about the trust 2.7 ltr so does the block need to be bored slightly? if it was bored to 3.0 ltr this engine/pistons would give more torque because of bigger surface area etc?
> 
> They dont make the trust 2.7 anymore do they but what is the individual kit made of to buy seperate that replicates the drag cars?
> 
> I dont want to run 1000bhp but i do want it built for 1000bhp with T51R spl but to run at 600bhp @ 0.8bar!



why bother nissan made a rb30 block. and my apology's endless R but nissan also made a rb30de and a rb30et from factory . 

i have had the honerable pleasure of owning both these rare breed of engine and 389 horse from a n/a rb30de made by nizmo as a base engine for the JGTC is wicked. :smokin: 

i just happened to be the recipient of the car importers dim wittedness when he didnt realize what he had when he sold it to me.:chairshot 

and even today that engine resides in my shed waiting for my next project.

as for the turbo charged rb30 block, they came factory in the 1987 VL series Holden commodore, switch heads to that of a rb25det or 26dett and you have a killer.

and as for cooling the block, remove the thermostat put a 4 core alloy radiator in with the assistance of a electric recirculator as well and you'll have trouble keeping it warm.


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

The tuner battle has started.

I dont agree with slating any company on a public forum. It should be delt with off here as it doesn't help anyone. Abbey have been really good to me and helped me out alot. I always have a laugh with them when i visit. 

I dont know much about Rob and PT but i have heard nothing but good things on here over and over again. This forum has become a PT shrine of recent. It does get abit annoying but PT must be really good at what they do to get that following.

Mick learn a leason and get on with it. I will see you at the next pro/street and see what the lemon and white can do.

This thread is a great thread with loads of info but then it got ****ed up again .


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## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

Lol no tuner battles here Madden, in fact Tony (abbey) phoned me this morning and we whispered sweet nothings to eachother 

Can still be a great thread....

Rob


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Nice Rob. Did you and Tony have a bonding or bondage session


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

can we do best thread gets a free crankshaft donated by gtr.co.uk haha


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

I want an engine built to take 1000bhp but i want max power at the lowest possible boost to prevent lag as its for the street/track.i work this out to be 600bhp @ 0.8bar which is plenty and i can turn the boost up for the pod knowing i shouldnt blow it up.


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## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

GTRules, i think you are maybe looking at it wrong...
A 1000hp capable engine is easy to put together, however... an SPL will be very late giving any decent airflow and torque. Certainly not the way forwards for the street and track at .8bar

Horsepower is almost irrelevant for track and street, boost threshold and torque is king.

Rob

p.s. i'm off to photoshop a gimp mask on Tony


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

i know its a big turbo but surely 0.8bar there will be no lag and plenty of power,around 600. If i put say GT-SS on with same engine build what boost would i run for the same 600bhp?


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## russwestwood (Jul 11, 2007)

TOMEI POWERED | RB26DETT Complete Product Range Information
Full counter crank is good for 10,000 rpm.. might be something to consider..


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

thanks.what does stroke mean if its a few mm more? Also what power is this Tomei kit rated to, over the HKS 2.8L?


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

longer stroke will generally mean more torque.


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

GTRules said:


> i know its a big turbo but surely 0.8bar there will be no lag and plenty of power,around 600. If i put say GT-SS on with same engine build what boost would i run for the same 600bhp?


there will be plenty of lag for 0.8 given the size of the turbo, the turbo is nowhere near its efficiency envelope. So you woul deithe rjust have to copy with that fact or get something smaller like a GT4088/92 etc...


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

This comes back to what Mick said originally,it's about the whole package not just one component,building an all forged engineand then putting a turbo like the SPL on it at 0.8 bar on the street or tight track,will be a laggy beast.
You need to focus on getting all the components together and as said berore a mega buck crank is really not needed,then get the appropriate turbo or turbos for the application.
Most guys here who have a built engine, turn up the boost for competition anyways,the idea is to build a well put together and mapped package.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Sounds to me like a Nissan RB30 with mild head work, decent cams, T04z etc would do this chap just right, forget the T51r at 0.8 bar and if your not actually wanting 1000hp, just a motor that will handle 1000hp, go with 3540 up to 600-650hp and T04z up to 750-800hp, both will have very good response on a good RB30.

Don't worry about block strength with the Nissan RB30 either, as said above, some came out turbo standard and we have made plenty of power (1100-1200hp+) at anywhere up to 9000 rpm and never had a block problem of any kind.

Be clear exactly what you want to end up with and make your choice from there,

Rob


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

i understand its too big a turbo for 600bhp but how can there be lag if im not waiting for it to boost high? I ran a t78-33d before on stroker engine and at 1bar it was instant power but when i set the boost controller to over 1.5bar it took untill 5000rpm to get going! i want 600bhp at the lowest possible boost -0.8,even boost controller off at 0.7bar so if i just use 2530's or equivelant what boost should i expect for 600bhp? (as i know 1000bhp would be at 2bar and 600bhp at 0.8bar on twin T67's)


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

GTRules.

Don't waist your money on the t67's. That's old school mate.

Question for you what turbo or turbos are you thinking of putting on you car?

Tell me straight i just want to know dude.

Mick


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

i just want 600bhp on an engine built to take 1000bhp for the road/track at the lowest boost. i dont want any lag, just really quick spool but not quick because its just 400bhp at low boost on small turbos, i want a strong light engine so the turbos are quick spooling, no lag yet 600bhp on bigger turbos.

i want to do it properly once with no expence spared and hopefully the engine will last forever becuase its so strong yet not pushed to its high rev limit, high boost potential!


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

GTRules said:


> i just want 600bhp on an engine built to take 1000bhp for the road/track at the lowest boost. i dont want any lag, just really quick spool but not quick because its just 400bhp at low boost on small turbos, i want a strong light engine so the turbos are quick spooling, no lag yet 600bhp on bigger turbos.
> 
> i want to do it properly once with no expence spared and hopefully the engine will last forever becuase its so strong yet not pushed to its high rev limit, high boost potential!


So you want to stay with the two?

Mick


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Sounds to me like a Nissan RB30 with mild head work, decent cams, T04z etc would do this chap just right, forget the T51r at 0.8 bar and if your not actually wanting 1000hp, just a motor that will handle 1000hp, go with 3540 up to 600-650hp and T04z up to 750-800hp, both will have very good response on a good RB30.
> 
> Don't worry about block strength with the Nissan RB30 either, as said above, some came out turbo standard and we have made plenty of power (1100-1200hp+) at anywhere up to 9000 rpm and never had a block problem of any kind.
> 
> ...


yeah what he said:bowdown1:


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

@GTRules

600Bhp at the lowest boost, say 0,8-1,0Bar, you need a relatively big turbo (or twin turbo) capable to flow enough air at that boost level. A big turbo will cause lag, so you want to counter that with an engine that can spin up the turbo as fast as possible. A logical choice would be a 3,0Liter or bigger engine with a Vcam system, mild cams, headwork to optimize off boost flow and the smallest t51r kai bb (A/R 0.87 IIRC)


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## SR BEAST (Mar 6, 2005)

Stock crank FTW !

have gone low 8s over here..and soon into the 7s @ 10,500 rpm


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

SR BEAST said:


> Stock crank FTW !
> 
> have gone low 8s over here..and soon into the 7s @ 10,500 rpm


Agreed :chuckle: any vid links to that car?

I've never seen or heard of a stock crank breaking or giving trouble, have you?

I hope to be pushing low 8s, high 7s shortly too with a stock unmodified crank, IMHO, Billet cranks are for strokers (could take that 2 different ways I suppose  ) 

Rob


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

beaumackenzie said:


> why bother nissan made a rb30 block. and my apology's endless R but nissan also made a rb30de and a rb30et from factory .
> 
> i have had the honerable pleasure of owning both these rare breed of engine and 389 horse from a n/a rb30de made by nizmo as a base engine for the JGTC is wicked. :smokin:
> 
> ...


And none taken, but I am sure nissan never made an RB30DET block, that was the engine code for when Holden added it to the commodor.
Nissan made only the RB30 block (NA) and its weaker then the RB26 block due to the lack of RIBS. (again this is just what I have been taught) so no offence to other tuners. The block is still Iron cast, but Japanese tuners went down that direction years ago, and found the blocks twisted under extreme use and power. Its why they are not used in Japan for tuning.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

I don't think Nissan made a specific RB30DET block either, They did do turbo single cam motors (RB30et) and above someone said they did a factory RB30de.

As always, opinions will vary and peoples results will vary, all anyone can do is stick with what works for them and sift through all the advise/results of others and make their own choices.

Rob


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

Just to show, this is the pics of the RB26 and RB30

Its clear to see the side ribs on the RB26, which stops it from twisting.

RB26DETT block









RB30DE block









Its also the reason Nissan went for an aluminum oil pan, to help stop the block from twisting. 

Just a note to say, this is not directed to start any arguements, its just information that I have, and want to share, and I have been told this is why the RB26 is stronger, and why the OS Giken is the strongest of the RB30s as It uses the RB26 as a base block.


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> I don't think Nissan made a specific RB30DET block either, They did do turbo single cam motors (RB30et) and above someone said they did a factory RB30de.
> 
> As always, opinions will vary and peoples results will vary, all anyone can do is stick with what works for them and sift through all the advise/results of others and make their own choices.
> 
> Rob


Agree you you totally Rob, Like I just said now, this is not to start any sort of war between us/others, its just providing information to the members/customers, and is now back on topic.

This is a full counter vs HKS step 1 cast crank shaft (very close to the original) you can see the smoothness of the full counter, but while it helps with RPM, it is a heavier crank as you can see the extra metal.










For your 600hp engine, OS Giken RB30, Vcam, Endless head, HKS T04z Turbo or Trust T78-33d Turbo

Rick


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

thanks.so i want 600bhp should i use GT-SS slightly modified with cut back wheels so i run 600bhp and no extra lag? What boost will i run do you think?


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> I've never seen or heard of a stock crank breaking or giving trouble, have you?
> 
> I hope to be pushing low 8s, high 7s shortly too with a stock unmodified crank, IMHO, Billet cranks are for strokers
> 
> Rob


On the full counter cranks the balance weights directly oppose the piston at TDC to give the maximum opposing force to compensate for heaver rods and pistons. 
How are you cancelling out the extra weight with a standard crankshaft with off set weights. By using heavy metal slugs?


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## SR BEAST (Mar 6, 2005)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Agreed :chuckle: any vid links to that car?
> 
> I've never seen or heard of a stock crank breaking or giving trouble, have you?
> 
> ...


YouTube - 9.07secs. Skyline R32 in Bahrain's Drag Strip

A 9 flat run here ...1 yr ago ..

The car did 8.6 2 weeks ago and should get down to low 8s this upcoming round4 of our drag season

I;ll post the 8.6 video later in the evening


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

GTRules said:


> thanks.so i want 600bhp should i use GT-SS slightly modified with cut back wheels so i run 600bhp and no extra lag? What boost will i run do you think?


If you're seeking 600Bhp at 0.8 bar (which I believe is what you wanted in your earlier post), the GTSS turbo's are way too small. Even 2530's will need around 1.5 bar


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

skyrocker said:


> If you're seeking 600Bhp at 0.8 bar (which I believe is what you wanted in your earlier post), the GTSS turbo's are way too small. Even 2530's will need around 1.5 bar



25/30s on the Taisan made 610bhp at 1.1 bar, all be it on a 2.8








Smokey :smokin:


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

thanks for all the imput,im learning alot.so whats the smallest turbos i can use to get 600bhp @ 0.8bar? Can i modify the gt-ss internals? is 600bhp unrealistic at 0.8bar on 600bhp's worth of turbo?


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

GTRules said:


> thanks for all the imput,im learning alot.so whats the smallest turbos i can use to get 600bhp @ 0.8bar? Can i modify the gt-ss internals? is 600bhp unrealistic at 0.8bar on 600bhp's worth of turbo?


Ok.

Speak to Turbo Dynamics Ltd ask for Matt.

These people are the daddy's


Mick


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

Just a thought.

Forget the turbo's, a supercharger would be the answer.
600Bhp, 0.8 bar and no lag.
:chuckle:


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

then i couldnt have a skyline lol


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

GTRules said:


> then i couldnt have a skyline lol


you could, it would certainly raise eyebrowse, 

i think GM's performance division MOPAR do a supercharger that bolts on in a similar format to how a ac pump bolts on for the pontiac/vauxhall/holden monaro.


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

so i would have both? hasnt it been done yet?


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

skyrocker said:


> If you're seeking 600Bhp at 0.8 bar (which I believe is what you wanted in your earlier post), the GTSS turbo's are way too small. Even 2530's will need around 1.5 bar


I'm not quite sure you're seeing the light at the moment.. There are some top shelf tuners here that have been in the business for a very long time, know what works and what doesn't and are giving you some great advice for free, i would look again at there sugeestions.. I would not worry about the GT-SS's or the T51R SPL, choose the correct turbo for the correct job, don't modify something thats not designed to do what you want to make it work, thats just wasting time and money. GT-SS's will run out of puff, and a T51R will be laggy and won't be anywhere efficiant running low boost as you stated you want (most HKS turbo's have there ebst efficiantcy zone around 1.7 bar). I'm not exactly sure why you want such low boost, a reliable engine can be built with the correcty selected parts and run with 20psi+ of boost and be 100% reliable. The stock crank will be fine be it an rb26 or 30, and the rb30 block will be fine aswell even though it doesn't have the additional ribs as rick from endless stated, it can be strengthend where the awd sump bolts to counter the ribs, be it a stronger girlde or an awd adapter/brace. I would personally go with this setup.

RB30ET block/rb26 Head, port/polished head with some cam's matched to a T04z turbo, you will see great response due to larger stroke, greater torque and midrange than an rb26.. Will easily make 600hp on relitivly low boost and be very reliable. 

Just as a reference have a look at this.

YouTube - RIPS Stealth bomber Promo Video

Hope my input helps.


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## bigkev (Mar 2, 2008)

as far as i know it hasnt been done yet. you could be the first!!

this is a very educational post, im liking it!


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

basically i dont want to be running at 2bar on the road/track for reliability and lag reasons. i want 600bhp max but at the lowest boost with the smallest turbos that will give 600bhp.As i only want to build it once i will use an rb30. as most of the power is created up the top, whats the most mods i can do to the head. stage 1,2,3,4...broken down individually? will the rb26 head fit rb30 block or will it need modifying? i still want a twin set up as i want them top mounted all polished.


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

GTRules said:


> basically i dont want to be running at 2bar on the road/track for reliability and lag reasons. i want 600bhp max but at the lowest boost with the smallest turbos that will give 600bhp.As i only want to build it once i will use an rb30. as most of the power is created up the top, whats the most mods i can do to the head. stage 1,2,3,4...broken down individually? will the rb26 head fit rb30 block or will it need modifying? i still want a twin set up as i want them top mounted all polished.


The 26 head will bolt to the 30 bottom end fine, it would be better to find a tuner/workshop who specializes in these and go with them, they will be able to give you the best info on all the bits and piece's involved with the mating of the two. For 600 hp stage 1 head will be fine, cams, cam gears, port polish, redo the guides and maybe some uprated springs and retainers but thats overkill in my opinion. Even the smallest highmount twins will be far to big for 600hp, and will be a even laggier than a large single. For the power output you want, a medium sized turbo (T04z, trust T78-33d) running 18 ~ 20 psi will be the best choice.


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

skyrocker said:


> If you're seeking 600Bhp at 0.8 bar (which I believe is what you wanted in your earlier post), the GTSS turbo's are way too small. Even 2530's will need around 1.5 bar





Dynamix said:


> I'm not quite sure you're seeing the light at the moment.. There are some top shelf tuners here that have been in the business for a very long time, know what works and what doesn't and are giving you some great advice for free, i would look again at there sugeestions.. I would not worry about the GT-SS's or the T51R SPL, choose the correct turbo for the correct job, don't modify something thats not designed to do what you want to make it work, thats just wasting time and money. GT-SS's will run out of puff, and a T51R will be laggy and won't be anywhere efficiant running low boost as you stated you want (most HKS turbo's have there ebst efficiantcy zone around 1.7 bar). I'm not exactly sure why you want such low boost, a reliable engine can be built with the correcty selected parts and run with 20psi+ of boost and be 100% reliable. The stock crank will be fine be it an rb26 or 30, and the rb30 block will be fine aswell even though it doesn't have the additional ribs as rick from endless stated, it can be strengthend where the awd sump bolts to counter the ribs, be it a stronger girlde or an awd adapter/brace. I would personally go with this setup.
> 
> RB30ET block/rb26 Head, port/polished head with some cam's matched to a T04z turbo, you will see great response due to larger stroke, greater torque and midrange than an rb26.. Will easily make 600hp on relitivly low boost and be very reliable.
> 
> ...


?? I think you're quoting the wrong person lol.

If Gtrules wants 600bhp at 0,8 bar with no lag, that's an 'impossible' task for a 2.6L engine; there will be lag and the only way to counter that is either to bolt on a supercharger and/or use a BIG volume engine with lots of low down torque with the smallest turbo's that flow just enough air for 600Bhp at 0,8 bar.
Just my simpel thoughts.


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

skyrocker said:


> ?? I think you're quoting the wrong person lol.
> 
> If Gtrules wants 600bhp at 0,8 bar with no lag, that's an 'impossible' task for a 2.6L engine; there will be lag and the only way to counter that is either to bolt on a supercharger and/or use a BIG volume engine with lots of low down torque with the smallest turbo's that flow just enough air for 600Bhp at 0,8 bar.
> Just my simpel thoughts.


You may need to read what I wrote again, I'm suggesting the rb30/26 combo not the rb26, ie more capacity.. a supercharger is just a bad solution to a problem that shouldn't exist with the *correct turbo choice*.


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

Correct, but that's not what dynamix's question is about.


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

skyrocker said:


> ?? I think you're quoting the wrong person lol.
> 
> If Gtrules wants 600bhp at 0,8 bar with no lag, that's an 'impossible' task for a 2.6L engine; there will be lag and the only way to counter that is either to bolt on a supercharger and/or use a BIG volume engine with lots of low down torque with the smallest turbo's that flow just enough air for 600Bhp at 0,8 bar.
> Just my simpel thoughts.



yes please lol. I still want major headwork done all in one go.ported polished etc.whats the most i can do for most power gains? i still want to modify the smallest turbos i can get to flow more air to reach 600bhp. i could modify N1 turbos to 600bhp and still get that power around 1bar?


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

skyrocker said:


> Correct, but that's not what dynamix's question is about.


Ehh, you're making no sense skyrocker. GTRules's question about the crank has been answered by me and a few others. We are suggesting a different setup then the one that was origonaly posted? 

GTRules, stage 1 head modifications will be perfect for your 600hp setup (clean up of ports/port match to inlet and exhaust manifolds/polish/ turbo matched cams/cam gears/broze guides). There's no point spending thousands and thousands of dollars on a stage 3 head when it will make tiny gains over a stage 1 head for the 600hp target. If you were chasing 1200hp and every little last bit of power then you will see better gains from more head work, but for 600hp stage 3 headwork (ie massive porting, massive cams that will need machining to fit and idle like a sick dog, oversized inlet and exhaust ports, over sized uprated valves, race guides/springs/retainers ect) its a massive overkill and you'd just be spending money on stuff that isn't needed. You need to be pumping big psi through n1's to make 600hp. HKS GT-RS turbo's would a great match to an rb30, very responsive yet have good top end, you'd still need 18+ or so psi to achive your goals though..


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## tuRBy (Feb 8, 2006)

I doubt you could get N1's to run that power at that boost even on a 3000cc, it may be possible with the 32-nismo units but ive yet to see a dyno of a 3L twin N1 setup.

With around~264 cams and headwork, to make 600bhp :-
On the RB30 i would think you'd still need ~1.2bar+
On the RB26/27 you would need ~1.4 to 1.5bar of boost to make n1's run 600hp, and use the R32 version of the N1 turbos as they the biggest of the N1 range, the r33 units are ~550bhp and r34 ball bearing units are ~500bhp. 

There is a turbo chart somewhere on this forum, maybe someone can post the link, or the pic directly onto this thread, it may help you decide what turbo/s you need.

If using small turbos like N1 or 2530 you use boost to make the 600bhp [around ~1.4bar].

or

You can use a bigger turbo like a t51r-kai or Gt4088R/gt42R to make the 600bhp at a lower boost [around 1bar]. 

And if you go for the big single you have the option of making another 200bhp over the small twins when you want to, on 2bar.
---
Having a bigger capacity engine will help the bigger turbo make the power/spool-up sooner, or help the smaller turbos make the 600bhp at a lower boost pressure.

Maybe a 3000cc engine with v-cam and twin hks GT-RS on custom top mount manifolds would be your best option, it should make 600bhp at low-ish boost and still have the capacity to make 800bhp.

Trying to get 1000bhp while still making the car nice to drive at low boost/revs is not easy, where as 800bhp max with a streetable 600bhp is alot more realistic.


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## tuRBy (Feb 8, 2006)

my post above relates to GTRules post above dynamix , dynamix beat me to it, with the N1 boost and GTRS suggestion !


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

ok thanks. so running a big turbo at 0.8bar T51R SPL isnt efficient and will still have lag.running smaller turbos at say 1.6bar will still create lag as it has to get to that fairly high boost even though spooling quicker due to smaller size? i do want top mounts as they look great and the whole engine will be chromed and polished. a one off manifold is a great idea as i want some original/1 off stuff. 

how do i get a 3.1/2L RB? is the rb30 bored out upto a 3.4L like the rb26 would be to a 3.0L?


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## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

GT-R Turbos


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## tuRBy (Feb 8, 2006)

RU' has helpfully posted one of the turbo charts to help you decide, there is another chart with a purple-ish background that I was thinking of, somewhere on this forum....

apparently OS GIKEN does a 3.1L and 3.2L kit, though I have never heard of, or seen, a car with this spec of OSG engine. If you search OS GIKEN .jp site with google and use the translation option - you should come across the info...

There are youtube video's, of a GTR in thailand, that runs a supra 2jZ engine, the 2JZ can be bored and stroked to 3.4L. If money is no object I would suggest a 3.4L 2JZ with the twin GTRS for ~800bhp, or even twin GT30/3037's as you have another 400cc above the os giken 3000cc kit to spool-up with. Twin turbo 3037-S will make ~900bhp.The 2JZ is widely regarded as the best straight 6 engine, although the RB is able to rev 1-2000rpm higher [i.e 10,000rpm+] due to its shorter stroke. RB or JZ, both are fantastic base's for power.

for your application, a 3.4L 2JZ with twin GTRS would be an awesome street car, although the custom work involved would be serious money - and it depends on your budget really......

....though you would be the first toyota 2JZ engine'd nissan GTR in europe as far as I know :smokin: 

As i don't understand thai, spoken in the youtube vid's - I dont know if the thai GTR was able to use the GTR ATESSA 4WD or if it ran in RWD/2WD mode. I would think the most cost involved with using a 2jz in a GTR is making it work in ATESSA 4wd mode. A RWD 2JZ GTR would be cheaper to make and less hassle.


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## tuRBy (Feb 8, 2006)

edit: double post.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

We will be starting our first "for a customer" RB33 shortly, and even larger capacity RBs are already being started for our own testing, if enough of you are interested I may do a thread on the RB33 build.

As far as the thread starter goes, I'd still be going RB30 with a 26 head, mild head work and a GT3540 or TO4z, you'll get the power you want easily, have good response and with quite low boost.

Rob


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

I asked Sugino san again, this is what he said.

OS Giken engine
Vcam
T51R KAI BB or T88-33D
Head processing, Porting and polishing
N1 Waterpump
HKS Oil pump
Extended oil sump

Will give you what your looking for.

Rick


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

tuRBy said:


> apparently OS GIKEN does a 3.1L and 3.2L kit, though I have never heard of, or seen, a car with this spec of OSG engine. If you search OS GIKEN .jp site with google and use the translation option - you should come across the info


OS Giken made the engines for a short time, but has since stopped production.
Now you can only buy the 3.0, but have the Vcam as well. The vcam is the best for low torque.

Rick


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> We will be starting our first "for a customer" RB33 shortly, and even larger capacity RBs are already being started for our own testing, if enough of you are interested I may do a thread on the RB33 build.
> 
> As far as the thread starter goes, I'd still be going RB30 with a 26 head, mild head work and a GT3540 or TO4z, you'll get the power you want easily, have good response and with quite low boost.
> 
> Rob



yes please rob, i like the idea of a big block skyline. :chuckle: 

it would certainly be an improvement over the tiring 30/26det my gts4 track car is running.

could be an answer to the advantage the gtst has over the 4wd drivetrains powerloss


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

just from my own expierience, if you want streetable everyday driving you want the motor to do the work below 3000 rpm. 

which would suggest you want a slightly higher compression ratio off boost maybe 8.7-8.9 to one over or even higher....eg HKS 33 runs 9.5 to one (im not to sure but i think standard is 8.5 to one???)

this would give you better off boost performance. 

however in doing this you dont want a huge hair dryer forcing in anything over 10-15 psi.. a t51r or spl wouldn't be suited. 

so a turbo for this application should including a larger exhaust housing to flow gas volume over gas speed, this should keep the speed of the turbine at a lower rpm than normalfor around town ? would it not. 

on the intake side you'd want a intake housing and impeler that could flow maybeA/R .70 with a 75 to 85 ml intake and only 40-45 outlet to give high compression sooner rather than that of a t51. 

A highbrid garrett T35/40 or even larger intake would be a resonable choice and capable of supplying enough air to reach 600. this is also considering the HKS drag car uses something similar. 

thats one thing i noticed watching that car run in aussie was the pick up the engine had over a alot of other rb's that were racing there, big turbo's are for big power. and to have big power instantly you need to be launching high rpm to have the turbo already spooling and creating boost. no good for a daily driver. 

my first foray into rb30det conversions i was 19 and new JackSh*t about the technical side of things, to me it was that head fits on that block with that turbo and those injectors. '

people would comment at track days how my r32 was near on full boost at 
3000 rpm and i had no answer for them. 

however in hind sight i think the combination of N/a rb30 n/a rb25 with chamber work done was what gave the engine its lower end power rather than a early spooling T28.


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> We will be starting our first "for a customer" RB33 shortly, and even larger capacity RBs are already being started for our own testing, if enough of you are interested I may do a thread on the RB33 build.
> 
> As far as the thread starter goes, I'd still be going RB30 with a 26 head, mild head work and a GT3540 or TO4z, you'll get the power you want easily, have good response and with quite low boost.
> 
> Rob


I'd be very interested in the RB33 thread too, i would love to see how fat the rb could be pushed and the trades off's. It would be awsome to see a responsive large capacity big turbo rb making serious power!


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## Floyd (Dec 15, 2004)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned VVTR turbo's in this thread. As they are supposed to be the answer to lag.


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

thanks for info. yes the vvtr turbos hasnt been mentioned yet...?


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## bazh (Aug 22, 2006)

EndlessR said:


> OS Giken made the engines for a short time, but has since stopped production.
> Now you can only buy the 3.0, but have the Vcam as well. The vcam is the best for low torque.
> 
> Rick



Have they? I know of one that was fitted in the last couple of weeks


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

bazh said:


> Have they? I know of one that was fitted in the last couple of weeks


Yes, the website also says the RB31 is no longer available, maybe its old stock someone has (can still be new, but maybe bought before production ended)

Rick


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

EndlessR said:


> Yes, the website also says the RB31 is no longer available, maybe its old stock someone has (can still be new, but maybe bought before production ended)
> 
> Rick


Is that why i have just been delivered one in box today Rick direct from OS?? For the Gold car. The engine 3.1 has been developed by RB motorsport and OS Giken based on Kieth Cowies engine.

5 days from order. From the best part suppliers in Japan.

You need to check before posting Rick.


Mick


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## bazh (Aug 22, 2006)

and there was me hoping for some exclusivity


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

m6beg said:


> Is that why i have just been delivered one in box today Rick direct from OS?? For the Gold car. The engine 3.1 has been developed by RB motorsport and OS Giken based on Kieth Cowies engine.
> 
> 5 days from order. From the best part suppliers in Japan.
> 
> ...



Mick, 

linked from OS Giken Japan home page









Says RB3.1は完売いたしました(SOLD OUT)、ありがとございました(thankyou very much)

Is that checked enough for you?

Rick


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

@ GTRules




skyrocker said:


> @GTRules
> 
> 600Bhp at the lowest boost, say 0,8-1,0Bar, you need a relatively big turbo (or twin turbo) capable to flow enough air at that boost level. A big turbo will cause lag, so you want to counter that with an engine that can spin up the turbo as fast as possible. A logical choice would be a 3,0Liter or bigger engine with a Vcam system, mild cams, headwork to optimize off boost flow and the smallest t51r kai bb (A/R 0.87 IIRC)






EndlessR said:


> I asked Sugino san again, this is what he said.
> 
> OS Giken engine
> Vcam
> ...



That wasn't a bad advise was it? :thumbsup: 
Good to see Mr Sugino san agrees with me:chuckle:


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

i was told not to use such a big turbo though..i was thinking maybe i need the mines 2.6 as it needs to be quick spool for road/track but when the video was shown the revs were always around 6k anyway so of course it looked like the ultimate responsive engine. someone said the gearing was altered too.


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

Well, it's quite simpel. If you want *600Bhp at 0.8-1.0 bar*, you wont get it from GTSS, N1 or 25/30 turbo's (neither unmodified nor modified). You need to go way bigger. :thumbsup:


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

I can't see any reason to run such low boost, its very easy to have a perectly reliable engine with 1.2 to 1.5 bar and 600-700hp with a smaller turbo than the 2 above.

GTRules, is there any reason why you MUST have such low boost for your 600hp?

Rob


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## roadie (Feb 6, 2006)

I think he feels the time it takes for the turbo to go from 0-1.5 bar would be too long, and therefore hurt the response. I can also say that I did some 2nd gear feathering of the throttle at 7000rpm with a gt4088r and the time it takes to go from full vac to 2.0 bar is virtually instantaneous. I'm dying to save up enough pennies to put the turbo on a rb30 (or bigger now!) and experience the result.....:thumbsup:


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## skyline andy (Dec 30, 2006)

Maybe i'm being stupid as i obviously don't know half about skylines as people on this thread but is there an anti lag system for skylines ? and if money is no object surely someone could come up with something??? Also i am kind of behind rips on this one why does the engine Have to be 600hp at 0.8 bar? built correctly it shouldn't matter about boost level if the car is giving you what you want


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

roadie said:


> I think he feels the time it takes for the turbo to go from 0-1.5 bar would be too long, and therefore hurt the response. I can also say that I did some 2nd gear feathering of the throttle at 7000rpm with a gt4088r and the time it takes to go from full vac to 2.0 bar is virtually instantaneous. I'm dying to save up enough pennies to put the turbo on a rb30 (or bigger now!) and experience the result.....:thumbsup:


yes i dont want to wait for a decent amount of power (600bhp) @ 1.5bar + when i can have it at 0.8bar, seeing as though im going to have a very strong well built engine this wont be a problem.Ive understood now i dont need a massive turbo to do this and its pointless so a 600bhp turbo with well built engine and vcam should see 600bhp at around 1bar. if i want to run it at the pod i can change the turbo for a T51R and remap it to its full potential, 1000bhp @2bar. i dont know what gearbox to use i think an OS 5 speed manual good for all occasions. i see some cars inc a friends which had 700bhp @2bar and i think all it shows is the engine isnt that good its just you have a big turbo and the boost cranked right up which is making all the power.if the boost was lower it wouldnt really be all that!


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

skyline andy said:


> Maybe i'm being stupid as i obviously don't know half about skylines as people on this thread but is there an anti lag system for skylines ? and if money is no object surely someone could come up with something??? Also i am kind of behind rips on this one why does the engine Have to be 600hp at 0.8 bar? built correctly it shouldn't matter about boost level if the car is giving you what you want


the boost level is vital, i want very little boost with maximum power. i also only want a single plate clutch for the road/track and i think there is single plate coper mix clutches that will handle 600bhp.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

GTRules said:


> the boost level is vital, i want very little boost with maximum power. i also only want a single plate clutch for the road/track and i think there is single plate coper mix clutches that will handle 600bhp.


Your going about this all wrong IMO.

I would say the correctly selected turbo on the correctly built engine would get to 1.5 bar of boost and 600hp MUCH FASTER than a large turbo would get to 600hp at 0.8 bar.

If you drive along in 4th gear with a big turbo car at say 3000rpm and plant your foot, basicly nothing happens at all and nothing will start to happen till around 4000-5000 usually and thats a VERY LONG wait, even a stock 2.0l non turbo car will be long gone.

As an example, one of our 600hp twin turbo engines, if you drive along at 3000rpm in 4th and plant your foot, it has 1.5 bar (max boost) by 3300rpm and it gets its 1.5 bar so much faster than a big turbo would get its 0.8 bar.

Its possible to have 600hp with 0.8 bar, no problem there, but a 600hp 1.5 bar engine will be much more responsive and far quicker to come on boost.

If response is your main priorety and you want 600hp, having an engine that makes 600hp at 0.8 bar will be about the worst/slowest way to go about it IMO.

Rob


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

why the hell would anyone not want to run much boost?

im really confused, either they dont understand how engines work and what makes them reliable or not, or they got some really strange thing going on i cant think of.

i keep seeing people wanting similar, and its almost beyond belief.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

SteveN said:


> why the hell would anyone not want to run much boost?
> 
> im really confused, either they dont understand how engines work and what makes them reliable or not, or they got some really strange thing going on i cant think of.
> 
> i keep seeing people wanting similar, and its almost beyond belief.



Not wrong mate, more boost :thumbsup:  :thumbsup: 

If you dont like it buy NA












Smokey


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

basically why do the top drag cars run 2bar boost + because they want around 1000bhp which is a rough figure for a winning time.also they arent ever below what 6000rpm? when on the road/track with CORNERS its good not to wait for so much power only to be achieved at 2bar(unless the engine is really good and so will be powerful enough at say 1bar! Of course you just drop a gear but with such long gearing thats still not a great option. Im considering a special built gearbox with shorter gears for the track/road, like the r34 gtr 6 speed goes into 6th at over 180mph i think which is a waste of 5th and 6th not really being needed on track/road


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Your going about this all wrong IMO.
> 
> I would say the correctly selected turbo on the correctly built engine would get to 1.5 bar of boost and 600hp MUCH FASTER than a large turbo would get to 600hp at 0.8 bar.
> 
> ...


ok i understand. so what turbos are best for just 600bhp at lowest boost and can they still be modified to give better flow..i only want 600bhp so anything bigger will be a waste?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

GTRules said:


> ok i understand. so what turbos are best for just 600bhp at lowest boost and can they still be modified to give better flow..i only want 600bhp so anything bigger will be a waste?


Sounds to me like (lets presume you get a strong RB30 with a good head) you'd be best to get a T4 manifold that suits a GT42 and initially put a GT3540 with 0.63 or 0.84 housing, there's your responsive 600hp taken care of, then when you want to go to the strip with 800-1000hp bolt on the GT42, switch maps and away you go.

Hows that? are we getting close to what you want now?? lol

Rob


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

EndlessR said:


> Mick,
> 
> linked from OS Giken Japan home page
> 
> ...


Its OK looking at there web site Rick.

But Not sold out if you are a proper OS dealer and that is a fact

RB Motorsport can get them.


Mick

And have a good few in stock


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Anyway i don't want to **** this thread up so sorry 


Mick


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

m6beg said:


> Its OK looking at there web site Rick.
> 
> But Not sold out if you are a proper OS dealer and that is a fact
> 
> ...


mick, I am sorry, your right, your always right, after all what would a Japanese tuner know.....especially as were not a "proper" OS Giken dealer:bawling:


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

GTRules said:


> basically why do the top drag cars run 2bar boost + because they want around 1000bhp which is a rough figure for a winning time.also they arent ever below what 6000rpm? when on the road/track with CORNERS its good not to wait for so much power only to be achieved at 2bar(unless the engine is really good and so will be powerful enough at say 1bar! Of course you just drop a gear but with such long gearing thats still not a great option. Im considering a special built gearbox with shorter gears for the track/road, like the r34 gtr 6 speed goes into 6th at over 180mph i think which is a waste of 5th and 6th not really being needed on track/road


Hense having a turbo combination best suited to the application. 

You CAN have a setup that will make 600hp @ 0.8 bar. It wont be responsive. It will have a narrower powerband then below, you would get smashed on the street or track by a 500hp with gt-ss turbo's.. 

or

You CAN have a setup running a smaller turbo spooling alot faster using a bit more boost to achive the 600hp @ say 1.5bar. It will be reliable. It will spool quicker then the above option. It will be faster than the above setup *because there is more usable power*. 

Imagine this scenario, you have a GT51R on your rb30, it will make 600hp @ 0.8 @ 4500 and have a redline of 8000rpm. Thats a 3,500rpm powerband, out of a total 8,000rpm. Less than half your revs your are on boost.

or

You have a T04Z or GT35/40, making 600 @ 1.5 by 3000rpm, and redlines
8000rpm. Thats a 5,000rpm powerband, out of a total 8,000rpm. 3/5's your revs you are on boost.

This is something like the dyno charts would look like with both setups, if this doesn't paint a picture to show you the difference between a good setup and a crapy setup then i give up.










Crapy paintjob effort i know, and the ' boost @ rpm is a bit off ' but the boost curves with a big bs small turbo making the same power will look pretty much the way it is on that chart.


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## hpt_simon (May 20, 2006)

are we still allowed to speak cranks? or has this thread vered onto blocks and turbos now?

just wanted to ask, people tend to go for big heavy cranks , full counter i mean, when most people are actualy looking for response........such as the mines car, wich actualy uses a modified D counter crank,......

has anyone ever knife-edged a stardand crank, ? lightened , and done all the typical race things too it oiling wise etcetc......also hasnt anyone ever done what os giken did to their crank? i mean make the journals wider for wider rods such as the pulsar ones (might have to get custom made rods for this as these might bee to long  )? the wider the better for high revs....

i am very interested in this, as i think this could be what i am looking for, fast reving and reliable.

suck as thos:
Crankshaft: Race Preparation by Castillo's Crankshaft Service - Club RSX Message Board
sorry for posting links from other websites


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Sounds to me like (lets presume you get a strong RB30 with a good head) you'd be best to get a T4 manifold that suits a GT42 and initially put a GT3540 with 0.63 or 0.84 housing, there's your responsive 600hp taken care of, then when you want to go to the strip with 800-1000hp bolt on the GT42, switch maps and away you go.
> 
> Hows that? are we getting close to what you want now?? lol
> 
> Rob


perfect thanx


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

Dynamix said:


> Hense having a turbo combination best suited to the application.
> 
> You CAN have a setup that will make 600hp @ 0.8 bar. It wont be responsive. It will have a narrower powerband then below, you would get smashed on the street or track by a 500hp with gt-ss turbo's..
> 
> ...


perfect thanx


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

hpt_simon said:


> are we still allowed to speak cranks? or has this thread vered onto blocks and turbos now?
> 
> just wanted to ask, people tend to go for big heavy cranks , full counter i mean, when most people are actualy looking for response........such as the mines car, wich actualy uses a modified D counter crank,......
> 
> ...


This was actually my next question! What mods can be done to a standard crank being that it is sometimes used as its light but not the strongest. i too am interested in modifying the standard one or blue printing it etc


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

IMO, the stock crank ground and balanced is fine, the rate at which the engine can rev is related to how quick the car is accellerating, the more torque/power you make, the faster the engine will rev in actual operation simple as that.

Other factors like lower diff ratio's will enable the car/engine to accellerate faster too.

A lighter crank engine may rev 'quicker' in neutral but it won't make alot of difference to the rate of accelleration of the car down the road/track/strip, you need power and torque for that which the modified lighter crank will have little effect.


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

can you build a diff to suit my needs i.e aceleration,close ratio, or is that mainly the gearbox? which diff would it be? sorry to hijack the thread buts its mine lol


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## Piggaz (Sep 5, 2002)

hpt_simon said:


> such as the mines car, wich actualy uses a modified D counter crank,......


Dont they use the Tomei full counter stock stroke crank?


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

Piggaz said:


> Dont they use the Tomei full counter stock stroke crank?


stage 1 balanced mines crank d counter
stage 2 lightened and balanced mines crank d counter


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

Smokey 1 said:


> 25/30s on the Taisan made 610bhp at 1.1 bar, all be it on a 2.8
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that sounds ideal. what spec is it please??


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

skyrocker said:


> ?? I think you're quoting the wrong person lol.
> 
> If Gtrules wants 600bhp at 0,8 bar with no lag, that's an 'impossible' task for a 2.6L engine; there will be lag and the only way to counter that is either to bolt on a supercharger and/or use a BIG volume engine with lots of low down torque with the smallest turbo's that flow just enough air for 600Bhp at 0,8 bar.
> Just my simpel thoughts.


yep, 3.1L is the way forward


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## GTRules (Oct 20, 2005)

Dynamix said:


> Hense having a turbo combination best suited to the application.
> 
> You CAN have a setup that will make 600hp @ 0.8 bar. It wont be responsive. It will have a narrower powerband then below, you would get smashed on the street or track by a 500hp with gt-ss turbo's..
> 
> ...



thanks for ur effort helps alot


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