# Dynapack: Setting the record straight.



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

I have only posted on this Forum once before and I hope I won’t have to post ever again.

I am getting very irritated by the various references being made about the Dynapack, i.e. “cars don’t run on their hubs” and “the Dynapack runs on water” etc!!

After many years repairing and tuning Skylines, since 1990 in fact, we decided that we had to move Abbey Motorsport Ltd. Into the 21st Century.

In order to do this we decided that we needed some sort of rolling road or as we later found out a “Chassis Dynometer”. I was not easily convinced that the company needed to invest £150,000 plus on a dedicated Dyno facility, but I changed my mind shortly after having an enormous accident in a customer’s Supra whilst trying to set up a boost controller on the A25. The subsequent spell in hospital gave me time to think about the pros of a Dyno!

We then set about looking at all the various options available on the rolling road front and whilst Mark was in Japan, he saw these strange looking hub transducers in Nismo’s workshop, which eliminated the issue of wheel slip and spin, commonly found on rolling roads.

So off to New Zealand we went and had a look at and used the machines that Mark had first seen at Nismo's workshops.. We then decided that we were not really worried about an accurate flywheel hp figure or how much difference having Bridgestone’s inflated at 2.2 bar or Dunlop’s inflated at 2.5 bar made to the run down figures. What we needed was a machine capable of measuring with repeatable accuracy of 1-2%

When we came back, we had a look at the data logging on various runs that were done on tyre interface rolling road dynamometers and we were surprised to find that at no time were you able to give a 600 bhp car full throttle until about 5000 rpm, obviously because it spun the wheels if you did.

So we bought the Dynapack and we are very pleased with the product. It’s reliable, safe, environmentally friendly and it does not tell lies.

By the way, the following companies have and use Dynapack:-

Nismo
Apexi
Nissan Prince (Chiba)
A P Engineering
Toyota Racing Developments.
SuperAutoBacs
J’s Racing
Honda Veni
RSR
Full Stage
Trial
G. S. Pal
Screen Powers
C0ckpit Tatebayashi
Gruppem
Summit racing
Auto-Gallery Yokohama
Crossload Koyama
OTS Tune
Tolap Auto technical
KKM Rotary
D C Sports
C0ckpit Zeal
Redhot Company
Re-Wing
Proshop Fukkon
R S Rantera
Grand Slam Scuderia

Quite a list!! And of course that is just in Japan.

I would not and will not make detrimental remarks about other company’s equipment or abilities, we all do it our own way and believe it or not, struggle to make a reasonable profit out of what is a massive investment.

We have a data library of probably 200 different cars with many different turbo/cam/displacement options and would be pleased to discuss these figures with genuine potential customers.

We would be pleased to demonstrate the Dynapack to any interested parties, including the knockers, who then might be able to discuss the working principles with some accuracy. This would have to be by appointment though as several of the companies that use our facility demand a confidential service.

Before anyone gets on this forum and tries to get me into a debate, I will not, repeat NOT, be drawn into any arguments.

For further information on the advantages of a dynapack, see the following links:

www.dynapack.com
www.dynapack.jp
www.dynapackusa.com

One thought before I close. If you had to torque a cylinder head down to 140nm would you use a rubber cush drive and expect a genuine torque reading or would you just use a breaker bar and guess the torque?

Tony Gillam
Managing Director
Abbey Motorsport Ltd.


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## MattPayne (Apr 11, 2002)

I like the idea of the dynapack system... never used it... but think its remakably clever... 

and am surprised that there are people slating the machine... ive only ever noted prase from others...


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## slippyr4 (May 2, 2002)

I don't know why people knock dynapack... I think it's just the "how big is my d**k brigade". Dynapack seems to be the best way of safely and accurately running a car in a cupboard, so you can map it right.

Good effort from Abbey, and I'll be on the dynapack soon (just need some ca$h).


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## nigel f (Sep 11, 2002)

Having used and opperated various Roling roads, such as Sun-o-matic 10, sun Ram 12, Clayton Dyno (uses water not an eddy brake) 
I can totaly agree and second Tonys Remarks, that the Dyno pack is the only way to properaly Measure and dyno a car with accuricay that is repatable.

The best way is to run the Engine on an engine test bed but there are losts of issues ascoiated with this any way.

There are some Roling raods which use a large (4 ft) diamater drums, this reduces steress on the Tyres and also the tyre runs on the surface just like on the Road, but again there are issues of wheel spin with big HP cars.
They are also very large instalations and are more for long term testing, + they cost a lot.

Regards

Nigel


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## Merli (May 15, 2002)

Firstly, I think people knock on products and services they really have no idea about... This blissful ignorance usually stems from misinformation from unreliable sources, but is taken as gospel. What can you do? It's the way humans work.

Secondly, I have never heard anyone actually say the Dynapack Dyno (It's dynamometer btw, not dynometer... Common mistake) was a bad product here in Australia. I know our Kiwi neighbours LOOOOVE the thing (probably because they developed it ). In Australia, 80% of the well known workshops use DynoDynamics Rolling Road machines. This is great because although dyno results are easily skewed by the operator, weather and atmospheric conditions, they are still quite comparable between dynos of the same make.

Things start getting complicated however, when you start to try and compare the results from a Taylor Engine Dyno, to a DynoDynamics Rolling Road, to a DynaPack Hub-based Dyno... It just plain doesn't work.

Perhaps that's where any "bad-mouthing" or animosity towards the DynaPack stems from? Not from the fact that people think that it's an inferior product?

On a more personal note, I prefer the "Rolling Road" type of dyno, because IN MY OPINION, it presents a better picture of what power you are actually putting onto the tarmac, taking loss through wheel/tyre inertia. But after owning a 500hp GTS-t and needing 3 big fat guys to crush my boot just to stop wheelspin and get a reading (still didn't work mind you), I can FULLY appreciate the benefits of the DynaPack setup  Hopefully I won't have those problems with my GTR now (fingers crossed)


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## Ged (Jun 29, 2001)

I have not seen the dynopack in use as much as some, but I did see project x run for the first time on Jan31st.

It was a testament to the quality of this equipment that I felt safe standing a few feet away from a car producing 831 at the hubs.

A truly fantastic tool.


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

I sure as hell aint doubting the Dynapack!!

Best there is and that is proven by how many top tuners use it!


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## PMJ (Sep 11, 2001)

*Dyno*

It is used as a tuning tool and not as a machine to measure power as such.. I think that it is a good thing that Abbey have one, I also understand that there is another set in the UK somewhere . and I do believe that this is the way forward..


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Tony, great post - couldn't have been worded better. Everyone who's had their car on a dynapack knows what they are all about - absolutely amazing equipment. My car will not touch anything else.

See you on Saturday.


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## phatty (May 18, 2002)

I was very impressed with the dynopacks, they were so safe, they made tuning my car almost boring


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Abbey M/S said:


> *I have only posted on this Forum once before and I hope I won’t have to post ever again.
> 
> Tony Gillam*


Tony:

That's a shame when you clearly understand what it is you have to say and put your point across so eloquently and without 'taking a pop' at anyone.

The Dynopack clearly is a superb piece of kit.

John


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

*Dyno*

From my experience of Abbeys they use this phenomenal piece of equipment as a performance enhancing/work tool and thats it. The investment and operational expertise they have is brilliant and all their customers benefit from this. I mean to invest in someone like Danoh (who is a wizard on it by the way if you didn't know) takes a lot of balls .

Yes it is sad that people knock you, your business, and everything you do, but these people have hidden agendas and it is very sad to have to see you explain yourself. BUT on the flip side it is nice to see you post and in such a constructive and professional manner.

Wow what a list of users, perhaps the knockers should send an email direct to NISMO etc., and tell them they have wasted their time and money  .

Anyway Tony, 2 posts, phew no stopping you mate is their   .

See Ya.

Glen


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## Brenhan (Jul 23, 2001)

with High power cars Dynapack are the only thing I would consider using 

Safety : being able to be near any part of the car without fear of getting caught in the rollers .

less noise from the lack of roller / tyre contact .

able to start the run in the gear you want to use 

able to stop instantly if something dose happen 



Dont knock it till you have tried it .

I wish I had a scanner to display some interesting dyno graphs......


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## Henry (Jul 19, 2001)

*Project X + Abbey Dyno*

and Glen .......errr.


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## Henry (Jul 19, 2001)




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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*This thread*

LMAO 

Here is a copy of an email we sent to Dynapack, they sent us an email as ' they were contacting persons whom enquired about thier dyno previously to see if we wanted one' but we had not enquired before, weird.




> Hi.
> 
> We use The G Force Dyno Dynamics RR and also CPL racing's DD RR very often.
> 
> ...


After a couple of 'sales' emails to us, we didnt get a reply after this one.

Use of any dyno and how its done is the preference of the owner and their beliefs in whether it gives them the information they require, for me, I want at the wheels figures, anything else if daft, but as always thats only my opinion, not trying to reinvent the wheel with my opinion, everyones got one.


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## slippyr4 (May 2, 2002)

But the whole point of the dynapack is that it gives accurate relative information. At the end of the day, it's not really important to know how much power you're producing at the flywheel, hubs, or wheels. The important thing, when mapping, or testing out new modifications, it to be able to establish and quantify the difference in power and torque, before and after the mods.

And, for this kind of work, where the applicability of the numbers is not as important as the reliability and repeatability, the dynapack is the best tool available by far.

Yes, the dynapack will give you an accurate "at the hubs" power/torque figure, and yes, an "at the hubs" figure is not that helpful for those who like to brag power figures down the pub.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

*Oh dear.*

Just last week some guy was asking me what was/is the BHP of my car. I gave him a rough figure - just a NUMBER. He never asked whether it was hubs, wheels, tryes, flywheel or half way down the drive shaft. It really wasn't importnat to him - or to me.

Dynos - of whatever variety - are very good tools for tuning cars and getting them set up, for the engine and to suit the driver. That they are used to work out the _gruntworthiness_ of a car is a byproduct (possibly a very good one). If you want it to be taken that seriously surely we should also make sure we have ambient air temperatures and relative humity readings at the same time. Not to mention the lattitude (to allopw for the earth's rotation). I don't think so!!!!

So, p l e a s e ...............................

Whether you choose your figures at the hubs, spokes or handlebars is really just the same as whether you take milk or sugar with your coffee. It's down to personal taste and choice - as well as access to the equipment. So, rather than all this "my way's better than yours" why can't we accept that each has merits and demerits and these are different depending on who you are.

I really don't give a flying rats-ar$e whether my car has more BHP or less than anyone elses. But that's my choice. If you are really that bothered and feel 'your way is better than their way' then I'm very happy for you. Now just let everyone be happy with their choice and accept that nobody is perfect, nobody is a total expert, nobody knows everything and nobody is really bothered in anybody elses opinion unless it suits them; so 'ramming the point/opinion home' achieves less and will never been seen as costructive. Instead it will be just another oppotunity to start an argument no-one will win (because no-one ever can).

Thank you
John


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

How about we all put our handbags away, and try to discuss this like adults. It's becoming tedious having to close threads because they turn into bitch fights. 

Everyone,
Relax, and have some fun. It's the weekend, go out, have a beer, meet some friends and chill out.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

*A seroius post no p1ss taking, I promise!*

Dynapack and all other dynometers/dynamometrs are a good tool for helping tune a car, ie put your car on, see what it does change whatever it is your changing, put your car back on to set it up and whatever, then run it again and see what you have achieved. This is only useful if the only variable is the things you have altered on the car. Using a different dyno, or having tyres at a different pressure, or different ambient temperatures etc. (within reason obviously) will all make your changes and differnces in power figures go out of the window. 
If you need a definitive power figure to brag to your mates about down the boozer then go on lots of different dyno's till you get the result you need. In my opinion a power figure means nothing without it being useable. 
Also I believe mapping etc, should be finalized in as close to possible as the situation under which the car will be used, ie on the road. I know a great deal of this work can be done on the dyno, and when you are dealing with big horsepower cars there are only so many top gear runs you want to do.
So basically i am saying that all dyno's are a good tool, but that is all they are, another tool helping tune a car. Whether a dynapack is better than any others I don't know. But they certainly come well reccomended.


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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

I just wish sometimes poeple would chill out a bit and get focused on what Tony has said about the tremendous investment they have made which could be of benefit to all of us.

The main issue being how accurate we want our testing to be done, and to be able to compare results before and after and changes to the car's setup.

I can understand the logic behind this equipment, but a lot of you guys are beginning to sound like Middle Age cynics when it was first announced that the world is round. Technology moves on.

Tony, Mark and all the team at Abbey have a great wealth of experience in tuning Skylines, and other highly tuned cars, and I am sure this depth of investment was not made lightly.

When a car is run on a "rolling road" setup, we have all seen the inevitable wheelspin, and we have to accept an outdated program which converts ATW output to ATF output. I have had independant "rolling road" tests done on my car which varied by more than 30 BHP. Ok, that might not sound like a lot when we are over 500, but I am a realist, and a if we are going to rely on any kind of measuring equipment, at least we want it to be accurate.


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## alex h (Mar 11, 2002)

*my 2p*

99% of you understand its a tuning tool.

The 1% left who just look at the power figures they produce...I laugh at you 

Short of taking the engine out the Dynapack's are a superb tool for tuning. Just mind boggaling how much is invested in one of them.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Alex,

I hope you're sitting down mate, but.......

I agree with you !!!

If you want to quote power figures (as alot of us do) then thats fine, but to say one set of figures is better than another is madness.

I dont know much about tuning a high powered car like my liner, but I do know that..................

I wouldnt want to be racing up and down the road in it all day mapping on the road
I wouldnt want to be sat in it with the wheels on spinning at 150mph whilst inside a shed

NOT when the alternative is bolted to a solid dyno that is repeatable again and again.

Oh, and in my line of work you eliminate as many opportunities for errors as possible, so it only makes sense to use a Dynapack instead of the road or rolling road, just from a tyres slip/temperature etc viewpoint where loads of irregularities can creep in.

James.


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## Alexb (Jul 1, 2003)

I *think* maybe my other post :

Mechanical Losses for an R32 GT-R 

May have incited a bit of vicious debate regarding the dyno and rollers. (I only wanted to know typical / rough figures )

This has clearly forced Tony to 'defend' the Dyno and it's capabilities. In so doing has put a really worthwhile and lengthy reason in to why they have opted for a Dyno, which, I don't know for everyone else but has made it clear in my mind that the Dyno is a worthwhile tool.

In my previous thread I HAD stated that I would prefer @ the wheels readings, but because the dyno is available I would like to retract that statement.

Due to the realisation that in fact:

'The power being DELIVERED TO the wheels would be what is measured at the HUB. A Reading given off the tyres is variable, due to slippage, heat, tyreset and temperature (which would increase over increase in power)'

In my 2 penneth opinion talking as a novice with an engineering background, my PREFERENCE would be to see what is being reliably delivered TO the wheels, as there are far too many variables involved with @ the wheels measurement (others would be weather conditions, and external temperatures i.e not produced by breaking the co-efficent of friction between the tyre and the road surface).

Now, that's all I would like to add folks.


Happy Debating,

Alex


oh, and NAME TAGS at Gaydon, actually a good idea cos I don't know anyone really and when I am told Post names I tend to forget them 3 seconds later :smokin:


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

> but I changed my mind shortly after having an enormous accident in a customer’s Supra whilst trying to set up a boost controller on the A25. The subsequent spell in hospital gave me time to think about the pros of a Dyno!


Tony, love the honesty man!  

I have seen dynapack in action twice now - awesome wouldnt really want to use anything else!

Anthony.


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## Brenhan (Jul 23, 2001)

I cant help but laugh at the people who estimate the flywheel hp from a rolling road and throw that figure around and then put down dynapack because it is not accurate because the car does not drive on its axles . 

using drag racing calulators , there is little difference between dynapack axle hp and the actual given hp and mph . 

Example : R32 GTR ( www.croydons.co.nz )
weight: 1335kg 
HP *: 800
calculated MPH : 151.6 
Actual MPH : 149.5 

* asked to provide HP at wheels , 800 hp at axles was made on the dynapack . 








*DONT KNOCK IT TILL YOU HAVE TRIED IT  *


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

I have just spent a considerable amount of my Saturday afternoon editing this thread. If your post was removed or edited you can be assured that I did so without malice, favour or enjoyment. 

Please can we continue to discuss the relative merits of this thread, in an adult and responsible manner.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2003)

JasonO said:


> *I have just spent a considerable amount of my Saturday afternoon editing this thread. If your post was removed or edited you can be assured that I did so without malice, favour or enjoyment.
> 
> Please can we continue to discuss the relative merits of this thread, in an adult and responsible manner. *


Sure.

Someone feels the need to come onto a forum he has never posted on before and defend his business and investment.

Some other people go 'woohoo' an important person is posting on the GTR.

A hobgoblin then comes and throws a windup into the mix.

Some other people discuss this windup like it is an epoch event.

Lots of people um an ahh with some quite technical stuff.

Someone else tries to make light of it, because he thinks people generally take the Nissan Skyline a little too seriously, so he posts a few minor funnies, nothing offensive mind.

Someone else removes those japes, because lest we forget Abbey Motorsport/SumoPower/Nissan Skyline is no joking matter.

Perhaps I should have said what I *really* think
  

...well you did say "Please can we continue to discuss the relative merits of this thread"  

as a collective of Skyline owners I would have imagined that collective to look at other marques and 'tsk tsk' - but it seems owning the greatest supercar on planet earth is not enough.. the finger waving and the side sniping turns inwards.

TOTB - sniping.
Crail - Sniping.
Jun Lemon - Sniping
GTART - Sniping
Dynos - Sniping
Pod? - prolly more snipage.

That'll be all from me now.

Bye Bye.


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

JasonO said:


> *I have just spent a considerable amount of my Saturday afternoon editing this thread. If your post was removed or edited you can be assured that I did so without malice, favour or enjoyment.  *


Just out of interest then Jason what was the editing based on as I'm not too happy mate that some of my thoughts/feelings are considered out of place.

Editing someones post/thread must have some kind of basis behind it otherwise it could be viewed as a dictatorship. 

An email to me would have been polite to say the least.

Oh well we agreed once .

Glen


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2003)

JasonO said:


> *Please can we continue to discuss the relative merits of this thread, in an adult and responsible manner. *


As you have elected yourself judge of what is deemed 'adult' and 'responsible' could you please define these constraints to me: as nothing I posted was either 'juvenile' or 'irresponsible'

I DETEST having what I say arbitralily censored.


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## R34 GTT Boy (Jan 10, 2002)

*Oooooooo*

In my opinion those that disagree should all meet up at Abbey and Dyno on the same machine in the same way and then you can compare apples to apples. 

Andy

PS Jason if it makes you feel better have that beer you owe me back, i think you could use it after all this.


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Now its my turn*

Tony,
you have a wonderfull peice of kit and i would love to own it,
I am in the middle of organising the right rolling road for me for what I do and what I want to do,
The problem you have created is that you are quoting power figures from the hubs,
This will be higher than power quoted at the wheels,
All flywheel power is a guestamate as that is what people want to know
We only use power at the WHEELS for judging improvements, as that is what I have become familular with and am HAPPY with, but as your POWER figures are QUOTED larger due to measurement procedure the mass think your figures are higher but in reality they are not.
Some dynos or rolling roads do not suffer from tyre slip, as i have posted here before that we had a HKS tripple plate clutch that slipped BEFORE the tyres let go of the rollers,
Reference your brain teaser,
I would not go for the bar and I would never torque a skyline head to 140 NM
regards
Gary
GT ART


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Glen and Glen,

This thread is very much a damned if we do, damned if we don't one. I hope that you would both agree that we do not as a rule interfere with threads unnecessarily....

The forum has suffered, as I'm sure almost everybody will agree, of late as a result of a number of things not least of all through a great deal of bickering. Tony felt the need to post here for reasons obvious to a lot of us. We respect his decision and felt we should try to keep at least this thread on subject and try to restrict posts to those that are directly relevant to the subject.

We still have the thread in full if the consensus that it needs reinstating but the vibes we are getting is that does not....


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Now its my turn*



gary said:


> *The problem you have created is that you are quoting power figures from the hubs,
> This will be higher than power quoted at the wheels,
> All flywheel power is a guestamate as that is what people want to know
> We only use power at the WHEELS for judging improvements, as that is what I have become familular with and am HAPPY with, but as your POWER figures are QUOTED larger due to measurement procedure the mass think your figures are higher but in reality they are not.*


Gary,

Tony is only doing what every other dyno operator does and that is quote what their dyno MEASURES, he can't do anything other than that. G Force quote power at the wheels because that's what their dyno MEASURES. As an unbiased bystander, I don't understand what you mean by saying that he has created a problem? If he were to guesstimate at the wheel figures, that wouldn't suit somebody or other would it....

I think that you underestimate the masses if you think they can't work out the differences for themselves....


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Peter*

I dont underestimate anyone,
Just putting my own thoughts across


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Peter*

Also 
It was not a dig or a knock either so whats the problem ?


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Peter said:


> *We still have the thread in full if the consensus that it needs reinstating but the vibes we are getting is that does not.... *


Vibes, from who, and how do you get them, by email or pm, because I never got one and would have liked to have been part of that vibe.

Remember please Peter that whatever people post are personal thoughts/feelings to them and as long as it does not breach the Forum guidelines should not be deleted/edited without at least an email/pm to all those that are affected.

Glen


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

*Last word?*

A quote " There are lies, damn lies and statistics"


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## Alexb (Jul 1, 2003)

I notice that some of my post was edited, and if it was taken to be offensive then please be assured it was in *no way* supposed to be .


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I was edited, but I dont care if its for the good of the forum, my sentiments were valid at the time, and now the whole thread has been trimmed they would not make sense anyway.

Gary,

That is the fairest and best post I have read around here for ages, well said. And I dont think there was a dig or knock in there either.

Peter,

I think most of us do realise, its just we get wound up when we feel someones pulling a flanker and inflating their numbers a bit, if we all just quoted "at the hubs" or "at the wheels" then we could judge for ourselves. If a couple of people took their cars to be dyno'd on both and posted the results then that would be even better as it would give us all a ROUGH guide to the comparison between the two.

Tony's post was excellent and an obviously heartfelt one, I cant imagine what it would be like trying to get back into a fast car after a big smash and trying to play with it again when that needs total commitment.

If we could all just remember that all power figures are a bit variable then it would go a long way to resolving one of the most sensitive issues around here.

Have a nice sunday and speak to ya next week. As for me, Im gonna look at some pics of my car as I still aint got it back, and it wont be ready this week now either, so Trax is gone too   

Seeya

J.


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## Dan_BlitzedS14 (Sep 23, 2001)

Christ alive! It's good to see this forum's still maintaining it's spirit!

I don't post here that often these days and tbh don't really look in much either. I'm not an owner of a GTR but do remember a time when I very much enjoyed looking at the goings on in the world of our Big Brother (to our 200sx's anyway) but now sadly it's not that much fun anymore

The joking side of me would like to say to Tony, "Now look what you've done" but tbh I think the main cause of this forums problems is not the tuners themselves, but their customers constantly "biggin up" their preferred tuner at every opportunity. 

It's great that some of us have a good relationship with our tuner, as I feel I have with mine, but come on guys, it's their company and they're the ones fighting for your custom, so why not let them do the work instead. I'm sure they're more than capable of advertising themselves by now.

and before anyone says it, yes, word of mouth is an excellent advert for your bussiness, I for one should know that by now, but the extent that word of mouth goes to on here is crazy sometimes and just leads to bitchiness and ill feeling at times imo.

I'm sure I'll continue to look in here as often as i can and if I feel I can help anyone, I'll try.

Sorry for going a bit off topic but considering the way thread's heading (pretty much the same way a lot go these days it seems), I felt the need to put my $2 in. 

mods, feel free to edit, delete, or do whatever you wish with this post (but not that, it would be most uncomfortable up there!!!).


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## Alexb (Jul 1, 2003)

Sorry, but to DRAG this thread right back to the initial comments/discussion!!

I would be quite prepared to do a 'before and after' against a rolling road and a hub dyno when I get my GT-R (this is dependant upon the level of tuning the car will come with of course)

Now, to help do this study, perhaps a recuced cost involved for the dyno's themselves would help 

Joking aside (or should I say begging), I am quite serious about this 'study' as it seems to invoke a lot of debate and interest.

Not to say that such an experiment would be to surpress the ongoing debate any, but just to throw in some facts and figures in a real life test case, run in this country, by tuners we know and Love (ahem, let's not go too far eh!).

Any second opinions on this folks?


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

I've often thought about doing this in the past - to help stop the arguments. I was going to have my car done on Dynapack (as it always is as that's where my car will always go) and then go to Tuning Jap to have a power run and then up to G-Force to have a power run.

But, then i decided "why should I ?". I only need the figures that come back on dynapack because i only use them for tuning purposes (and in my opinion it's the best out there). The figures that come out are a reference point to me - so that i can see where the improvements have been made with each new tuning part i have fitted - and i have no intention of using it as bragging rights for people with less powerful cars. If someone asks i just tell them my dynapack figure and be done with it. If it means nothing to them, or they're unimpressed, it's no skin off my nose.

I'm sure if i did take my car to all these different dynos and rolling roads, there would still be debates about the figures coming out from other cars.

Alexb - good luck if you decide to go ahead with it ... i'm sure there'll be some interest from various people on the forum - but i'm not sure it'll solve anything.


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## Alexb (Jul 1, 2003)

Like I said before, I kno it ain't gonna stop debate on the subject, but it would be 'nice' or 'interesting' to see the results.

I'm well up for doing it. Just gotta go and get a GT-R now


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

I'm sure there'lll be some interest in the results and it might enable some people to make some estimated differences between each dyno type (i'm just not interested in having this done myself anymore).

I guess the best thing would be to take a completely STANDARD car on each.

Good luck with it - and the GTR hunt


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Wow*

Been away for the weekend and missed some action on here it seems, missed all the deleted posts

Just to confirm, my original post about what I emailed to Dynapack was put up as most see my opinions of the darlicks as a dig at Abbey. My email shows that my feelings towards the darlicks runs further than that and even after the sales guy from Dynapack contacted us a couple of times asking ' why dont you do a comparison/have you used it? ' my reply was as per my previous post as my original email of ' no thanks' didnt get through to him and posted the copy email to show this. 

Just off topic ( well I think so ) Where is Danoh?, he had lots to say prior to TOTB, guess he is busy


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

*Well*

as I said in a post ages ago I went with 2 cars (one was my old 34) to Japanese Tuning in Aldershot last year, had them both dyno'd, then a couple of days later went to G Force and had both cars dyno'd there. One read higher bhp and one read lower bhp than they did at Japanese Tuning. Both are rolling roads by the way. 

I got well quizzed about this at the time but can only say what I saw and am not going to answer any if's, but's or maybe's. I wanted to do this to see comparisons, and never expected them to read the same but was well suprised with readings going in two different directions.

Abbeys never had there Dyno at the time but the observations taken were I am sure an influence on their choice to buy what they did.

Personally I never use my Dyno figures as a chest expander but use them solely as a base figure for what I have spent, to what I have got formy money. I also like the fact that if I chose to go a different route with an engine tune then I could see what parts have achieved what in advance of my purchase and could therefore base my spends on this.

I used the Abbey Dyno for my sons Type R when he purchased a filter kit and exhaust and it was brilliant to do quite a few back to back runs and see what achieved (or didn't achieve  ) what. It was great to see that an airfilter kit had a derogatory effect on bhp and torque, and that a silencer had better effect than the whole system. Also when the whole lot was returned back it showed the same figures as when we started. This is what a dyno's all about and if anyones thinks differently then they are fooling themselves and all around them. 

It must be/will be really nice for you guys coming through that are interested in having there cars tuned to be able to ask/see what does what, and then budget for it  .

And I don't care what anyones think but I remember a conversation with Mark and him saying 'one' of the reasons he chose what he did was because NISMO use one and that to me opened my eyes to what a Dyno is all about.

Glen

edited my smilies


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

*Re: Wow*



Dirk Diggler said:


> *Just off topic ( well I think so ) Where is Danoh?, he had lots to say prior to TOTB, guess he is busy  *


You ain't been on a fishing weekend have you and got some bait left over   .

Perfect timing Andy


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Funny*

Thats funny Glen, I have actually been cleaning up my carp gear this afternoon, sat in the garden cleaning the mud off everything even though I havent been fishing for months now the time came to clean it all, quite enjoyable afternoon, never got round to sorting me rigs though. I have been away on the one scooter rally of the year which I promise myself to go on although I couldnt source a new top end in time to take me scooter and had to take the car Got rat faced, had some fantastic dancing sessions both Fri and Sat night, ahhhh, Northern Soul, the best music there is. Got home with sore feet from the dancing, a sore throat from all the shouting/Marlboro lights and aching sides no doubt from all the Newcastle Brown Ale. Not one Skyline conversation all weekend although I was challenged to a race at Santa Pod but on our Lambretta's, obviously I took the challenge and will now build my engine a tad more powerful going to increase power from 28bhp ATW to 35bhp this time, cant wait to get it onto Guys RR to finally set it up correctly and hopefully stop melting pistons, never could get the mixture right . BTW, a scooter ( Lambretta ) ran a 13.2 sec pass at Pod a few weeks back 

No bait, just facts


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## Steven_RW (Aug 26, 2003)

I cannot believe how many 'well educated' 'inteligent' 'motor enthusiastic' people are on this site and seem to completely miss the point in a r/r dyno etc.

Aslong as they can create repeatable figures that then allows you to see what difference a modification makes to the power thats all that counts.

One chap got it right

'99% of you understand its a tuning tool.

The 1% left who just look at the power figures they produce...I laugh at you '

I have to agree...

Bhp figures are COMPLETELY irrelevant. Aslong as you are getting the best out of the engine package you have thats all that matters. Out of the road/track is where performance counts. Not being able to say my cars got 600 bhp at the wheels and another chap saying mine has 700 at the flywheel and then one feels superior to another.

SO childish.

As long as the readings are repeatable thats ALL that counts.

RW


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Steven RW*

Spend 40K on an engine and tell me that again.

Figures are everything after tuning, Horsepower exists for a reason, it is a measurement of power, power is created by tuning and how well it is done.


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## Luke Emmott (Jan 20, 2002)

*Andy*

danoh doesn't use the forum anymore and apparantly he blames me... woops!

Luke


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

boys and toys


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Re: Andy*



Luke Emmott said:


> *danoh doesn't use the forum anymore and apparantly he blames me... woops!
> 
> Luke *


Nah, he's probably just busy Luke Saying that you do have the knack of upsetting people you trouble maker you....


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## Luke Emmott (Jan 20, 2002)

*Trouble maker?... moi?*

He he, nope he definately told me it was because of me 

Luke


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Cool*

I guess his avatar picture is aimed at you then, so professional


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## Luke Emmott (Jan 20, 2002)

*LMAO*

Yeah I think it is, he did it just after he told me it was my fault... nevermind

Luke


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## Steven_RW (Aug 26, 2003)

Dirk,

If I spent 40k on an engine I would be looking for PERFORMANCE figures. Not a bhp figure to wave at my friends and act big about.

So what do u do if your mates car gets 700 on his dyno and u get 600 on yours but you completely tan him up the 1/4 round a track out a motorway and up the airstrip?

Go back to your tuner and say ' He's got more bhp than me.. cry cry '

? 

thats what I meant.

If I spent 40k on an engine the figure would not be important. The way it pulled and felt and how reliable it was would be. If everytime I got in it I thought it was the most amazing thing in the world and it pulled 195 down elvington I would be more happy than having a graph on apiece of paper that showed me I had 700-900 bhp or whatever 

Yus?

RW


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## paul (Oct 13, 2002)

i agree with andy, spend money on a engine and youll want to see results, and horsepower figures are results. if you spent £5k on a new turbo would you be more satisfied to see a 100bhp increase or a 300bhp increase? performace is related to power providing weight etc. is similar.

i know i am far from as knowledgeable and experienced as alot of you but i have common sense and a basic understanding. a dyno should be used mainly for tuning purposes, but people who dont care somewhere deep down what power figure their car puts out are few and far between.


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

OK well I'm probably going to be called biased because I'm a kiwi, but ............

Dirk and GT ART, I was wondering if you could tell me if I brought my car to you on say Monday, got it on your dyno and ran it up, gave me a figure of 400HP, then I come back the week after, but in the meantime have noticed that my tyres needed some air and I'd put the required air in them and now ran the same car on your dyno, do you think I'd get the same figure or within 1-2% of it, if all the conditions except the air in the tyres was the same ?

Also another thing that I'm not sure on is that every rolling road dyno I've ever watched running with higher HP car's, even with 5 people in, car tied down, and traction compond on the rollers has still slipped when coming up on max power.

As you state I'm sure it's possible to run cars up with no slip, but especially with 2WD cars, I've never seen it achieved consistently, so working on the law of averages I'd have to assume that more large HP cars slip on rolling road dyno than don't. 

The only other thing I'm wondering is how can you be sure that there isn't say 3% wheelspin or loss of traction on a rolling road ? You know some thing so small that it wouldn't nessecarily mean a lightup of the tyres, but enough to change the results. Wouldn't that be easy to miss ? ? 

I suppose in short, I'm wondering why you would introduce what appear to be some major chances to lose accuracy when you don't need to ? 

Please don't think I've got my mind already made up, this is an honest post as I haven't been able to find anyone who's been able to answer these thoughts with a descent answer.

Look forward to hearing your reply's.


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## ColinM (Sep 29, 2002)

I am also wondering how you manage to run a high bhp car on the rollers without wheelspin when most other companies with rolling roads do get slip. Do you tie the car down with some sort or pulley system ? Is it a secret technique that other tuners don't know about ?
A general question for people in the know - if a car was dyno'd on a rolling road with 4 people on board then with again with only one person in the car, and there was no slip in both cases, would the two dyno readings be the same ?


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## Alexb (Jul 1, 2003)

Good point about having people inside the car whilst dyno-ing.

Do they in fact increase the friction at the wheels (likely) and have an adverse affect (due to heat generation)?


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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

Incredible. Tony makes his second post...
Great thread. The big debate goes on and on.


Tony, you should post here more often. Really!


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I am convinced that if you want to tune a car, dynapack is the better bit of equipment. At the end of the day figures are figures and actual useable performance is what counts. Who cares what bhp you have got if its fast enough to thrash Porsches and Ferrari's that will do me. Look at Rod Bell for example he gets fantastic results from the cars he maps and he does it out on the road, no rolling road, no chassis dyno no STUPID FIGURES!!

Anyway just going to play with me 350bhp RX7


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

Steven_RW said:


> *
> 
> If I spent 40k on an engine I would be looking for PERFORMANCE figures. Not a bhp figure to wave at my friends and act big about.
> 
> RW *


Well said that man. PERFORMANCE - Surely the only thing that counts. BHP is great for pub talk, but what's the point in having a big dick if you can't keep it up?


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## Alexb (Jul 1, 2003)

Pardon me for being basic and maybe slightly ignorant, but isn't BHP actually a quotient OF PERFORMANCE?!?!?!?

IT is in fact linear the relationship between how much your car can waste a GT3 and the amount of horsies it represents at the wheels!     

But I know what you are saying to a certain extent, get the work done and you have improved importance, but at the end of the day, if you don't want to know what your car is producing, then just get Abbey to dyno it to set it up correctly, now how many of us would actually get them to do that and NOT accept the results?? hmmm? There's a little brain teaser for you folks


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

*Skyline civil war*

Yeah although Skylines are awesome mega BHP = incredible turbo lag, which quite honestly is not amazingly useable performance. The RB26 is much like a Honda VTEC in that respect. Its great fun but hard work. At the end of the day figures do count towards performance but they are not the be all and end all of driveability.

Anthony!

PS I wish Tony would post more too, he's a great character!


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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

> Skylines are awesome mega BHP = incredible turbo lag,


Not so. Depends what setup you have. Get your facts right. There are a great many Skylines out there with 500/600 plus who do not suffer turbo lag. 




> The RB26 is much like a Honda VTEC in that respect.


Absolute crap, there is no comparison. Biggest load of mouthpoo I have heard in a long time.

Do you actually own a Skyline GTR, or are you dreaming?

PS. Do you know Tony?


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

> Well said that man. PERFORMANCE - Surely the only thing that counts. BHP is great for pub talk, but what's the point in having a big dick if you can't keep it up?


You have to take into account why you are tuning the car. I agree I want a car that has little lag, good BHP, goes round corners well and has a good drag time. This I would class is a complete car, a little like Ronnies as he proved at TOTB. If you look at some of the quality performance cars through history not all relied on huge BHP, one example would be the Lotus Esprit. Fantasticly quick car quite a small engine. 

Andy, however, is not looking expressley for that type of car, as a number of his posts show (This isn't a criticism by the way Andy). I beleive Andy is attempting to produce the UK's most powerful Skyline. If this is his aim then the type of dyno and correct benchmarks are extremly important. A flywheel dyno is hugely inflated when everyone else is talking wheel power so thats no good. The Dynapack while being a very good piece of kit will add on say 20bhp to a 600bhp atw car (this is an off the top of my head figure I don't want to cause anymore arguments). This is still a bit of a bugger if the two cars in the UK are dicing for the title and the difference is 15bhp. If this was the case I can understand Andy getting punchy about the Dynapack as in a way it is cheating your way to that last little bit of power.

I hope everyone understands what I said, otherwise I'll get the flame retardent overcoat on


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Cheers John my love,

Having owned an Integra type R and now on my 3rd GTR I think its fair to say, yes I have driven a Skyline. They are all standard twin turbo cars with about 400bhp ish and they are laggy compared to say an Evo, Scooby or an RX7. I havent driven any big turbo GTR's but from what people tell me you dont get boost until 4500-5500rpm. To me that is laggy.

I know Tony. Not to a great extent though. He likes speedway.  

Cheers, Anthony.


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

mattb said:


> *I hope everyone understands what I said, otherwise I'll get the flame retardent overcoat on
> *


Yep get your overcoat on Matt


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

I know what you're saying Matt, so in that case I'd say that if it's about getting the biggest HP in the country, then simply get all those guys together who want to try, bit like 10 of the best and let them all dyno their cars on the same dyno on the same day.

No arguements then.

There'd be alot more people interested in accurate ongoing results to improve their car that there would be for an out and out top HP figure I would have thought.

As I said in my post too, even with a rolling road dyno, say Andy or someone else gets 900 HP and someone on a Dynopak gets 880HP and everyone accepts (for discussions sake, not accurate nessecarily) that there's a 20HP difference in the end figure, who's to say Andy wasn't suffering a little bit of undetected wheelspin and he could have produced 900 HP on a Dynopak ????

See what I'm trying to get at ?? I don't think it's in Andy's interest to use a peice of kit that allows for things such as wheelspin and over inflated tyres, it just allows people to doubt, you use a dynopak and all that doubt is taken away.

I know alot of people are still using rolling road dyno's, but at the end of the day I think the technology has moved on, people just have to keep using them to get back such a large investment. 

People still drive 5 year old cars, doesn't mean they're better at the job !

Just my 2 cents.


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## rallymad_nad (Feb 16, 2002)

Why do all these post go the same way  

Anyway my R will be going to G-Force when its finished as it will be the closest one to MAD, thats all. My car is being tuned on the road as thats what Mark does and I can see why he does it, yet I can also understand why Mark @ Abbey doesnt want to. I will also want a rough estimate of flywheel horsepower to see if the turbo is reaching the power it was quoted to, the only reason I want to put it on a RR. (Obviously a turbo has to be quoted at the engine as it can not take into account every cars power loses thru the transmission). That and to see the power curves.

I was going to take it to Abbey as well just out of interest but as I will be a student again in Sept for 6yrs I cant see it happening due to lack of money. I know some of the chaps @ Abbey and have been in the dyno room. One day maybe......

IMO any rolling road is there as a tuning tool and the figures are just produced to see a difference from one tune to another and that IMO the Dynopack would be the most consitant. Does it matter which RR/Dyno u use???? I for one couldn't, as long as its within a few %.

As long as my car feels better on the road, regardless of what power it is putting and gets the times I want that is what counts to me. There are GTIRs on the forum with bigger bhp but I am going for drivability. 

No one really cares on the GTIROC as many people stick to low power to save the gearbox. They lets the others get on with it and fly the flag for the whole club, not just the individual. It is why our club is like it is. We like to push the big boys along who have the £££ to bring results back for the club. I hope I can help too one day.

L8rs

Nad

BTW I got a Nova with 82bhp @ flywheel but on my single track roads I drive on u aint gonna keep up with me in ur Skylines   Power isnt everything, if ur cars too fat it aint coming down lol


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*This now seems a chore but*

Fraser,

I dont own a rolling road yet so am not privy to the information in your first question but the question is a hard one to answer as I belive the same would be true of both a rolling road and a dyno pack because it is absolutly impossible to create the same conditions 1 week later,but then i may be talking cr£p the closest you could probably come would be buy using a recognised standard of correction even then the percentage of difference would be higher than 1 or 2 percent.But if i had to answer the question it would be no.
My measure of improvements are based on power and tractive effort and then how it feels on the road or track,I use the shapes of my recorded curves to justify to myself wether I have made improvements across the rev band.
When I have a car in I allways send the customer to the dyno first
and do a power run then I modify, then I take the car to the rollers to tune it, so far there has allways been an improvement of over 10 percent, using your logic that could be an improvement of only 8 percent or 12 percent if the variation is higher it does not matter as I get the drive home to see and when for instance I am in a standardish gtr with just a power fc added and accelerate in 5th gear from 90 through to 170 very rapidly and it dident do it before I come to the conclusion that I have made more power so you see as far as i am concerned whatever the loss or acuracy from day to day it really does not matter.
What matters is the improvement at the time it is on there

Of course there is the chance to slip the tyres, I have had this happen on other rolling roads but the dyno dynamics system is different in the way the car is tied down and this problem is eliminated, even small percentages of slip can be seen in the graphs, even detonation can be seen on the graphs.If this is seen in the graphs then adjustments are made to rectify it simple,

NowJust because your hubs are bolted to some couplings on the dyno pac, I read somewere that the system is water brake all well and good but is a water brake not configured such as a vehicles torque converter ?
Is it not possible for a water brake to slip ? I dont know, but what I do know is this method of brake is not modern and state of the art as you state, the first water brake dyno was invented around 1903 ( note the around) His name escapes me but I was intrigued by the man as he heated his entire factory with the hot water produced from stalling the engines.

I have no interest in comparing one to the other but I hope my answers were what you were looking for
regards
Gary
GT ART


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

If you need four fat blokes in the car to keep it from wheelspinning on the dyno, and we are saying that at the wheel figures is what counts, does that mean you have to drive around with the same four fat blokes in the car on the road to prevent any losses due to tyre slip whilst driving?? And wouldnt they slow you down a bit because of power to weight ratios ??

        

hehehe Im off, fire proof undies at the ready !!


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

James,

Why do you think I offered you a lift to Trax.   

ooops (gotta go now)


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)




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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

Anthony



> but from what people tell me you dont get boost until 4500-5500rpm. To me that is laggy.


Not for me, my friend. Boost comes on really quick. Sure, some of the bigger turbo owners might experience that problem, but there is no lag in this stable. Much depends on setup of course.

Wasn't trying to badmouth you in a big way, Ant, but there are a few GTR 32 owners I know who don't think for one second about turbo lag. I have also owned an RX7 btw. If turbo lag is a big problem for you and spoils your enjoyment of a Skyline, then you should talk to someone like Gary at GT_ART, who can recommend ways to set your car up exactly the way you like it.

Gary set up the Nismo N1 turbos on mine and they do spool up quick, like Zero to 1.4 bar quicker than a bats blink.


:smokin:


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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

James,



> If you need four fat blokes in the car to keep it from wheelspinning


Just you and me should do it.....and Henry's hands on the boot..


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## mark r (Feb 17, 2003)

*anthony*

How much lag does a 400+ scooby or evo have? and once on boost how many useable rpm do they have?

I can answer- not as much as the RB26DETT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

*flame coat on!!!*

Not meaning to belittle you Ant but you are a dealer hence three GTR`s plus it wasnt that many moons ago you were trying to find out the dimensions of a GTR front reg plate so without wanting to upset you, perhaps your knowledge of the GTR, lag and spooling etc is not as extensive as some other long term owners on here.

Perhaps your cars needed a good set up from some of the bigger boys?? Mine was running around the same BHP you talk of your cars and never suffered any lag?

Just a thought,

jas


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2003)

all I did was congratulate John on that nine dart finish 20 years ago and I got moderated.

Shame really as after John, Jocky and the crafty britney it went [email protected] :/

Glen.

NB i cant say c ockney so i had to replace it with britney :/


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

Thanks Gary, that did help to answer a few questions for me.

Just for the record, I'm a firm believer that a dyno isn't best used for anything other than a reference tools as you suggest. As long as you come out with more than you went in with, or even if you just come out with what you were after, even if it's not more power, then it's done it's job.

I think they're great for giving you a good idea of HP overall too, but it's the people who shoot down the pub and start spreading the word that seem to cause the issue ! 

I just say enough for now when people ask  

Cheers guys, I think this discussion is very helpful without being snarky. I know there's been some moderation, but I think this thread is helpful

Just my 2 cents


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

*Water Brake*

Gary - i'd be interested to know where you heard / read that the dynapack used a water brake system ?

From my very limited understanding of how they work, the ONLY use for water (only a trickle of water too) in the system is to cool some of the components within the "boxes" that bolt onto the hubs.


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Well*

Thanks Frazer, I am with you 
Daz,
A shame it is left for you to inform the board of this,I have been told of the error of my ways reference the water brake issue,thank you very much, I belive this issue i took from here as i dont frequent any other boards, so its HYDRAULIC so what about this question is the stalling medium
fluid just a different type of tyre?
What about this question
If the dyno pac does not slip will this not give different load sites in the ecu priority to load sites used in the REAL world with a small amount of slip as per road conditions
See its a 2 sided coin
regards
Gary
GT ART
no knocking intended


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Gary, it'll need someone more technical than me to answer your questions ... i don't know much about it, other than what i've seen / asked about when my cars have been on it.

Why not email Dynapack themselves and ask these questions ? Even if you don't want one, at least you'll have the answers to your questions.


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

This thread seems to have gone away from the original point of a piece of machinery to measure something all the way over to how much lag you now have with all sorts of vehicles ?

Surely its all horses for courses, if you go with one company and have something dynoéd then stick with it to show proper increases over your previous mod or build. 

If you take something to a new place all their tollerances will be different and you will have a different figure.

If you remember back to when you were doing for exmaple chemistry at school  ( remember ? ), your method was use the same equipment to keep things the same so your measurements come out with the same tollerances as before. Hence a realistic conclusion, in our case an increase hopefully in power against our new mods.

To me its not who has the most accurate figure on power, but I want something tuned safely and knowledgably, and a gain in previous performance whatever that might be.

All the tuners have this and its preference where people take their cars.


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Ping Pong*

Daz,
I think I will leave it there
regards
Gary
GT ART


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Thread*

Close the thread, its a load of old tosh, theres nothing interesting to read here other than a load of smoke blowing that some wish that they feel may turn into cheaper bills on the thing.

If THOR engineering only charge 190 quid for 5 hours on the dyno then its a cheap option for tuning, get your car on it, use it and be happy, personal preference.

One thing that has bothered me about this since TOTB week is that is it possible that as the cars that Abbey mapped and which later suffered engine failure were mapped on the Dynapack, maybe the loads used on it are not the same as real road conditions? Thats an interesting point I would like to have confirmed, if the Dynapack can reinact road conditions with the wheels bolted on in theory, how does it know what wheels and tyres you have and how heavy they are? When you bolt the wheels on after mapping, how do you know the load on the engine is the same as the computer estimated, with heavier wheels etc the car would be working harder to produce the forward motion and hence generate more heat etc and introduce a few more variables especially in such seemly high power levels, I guess the same could be said for load applied on RR's but at least you have the same rotating mass, no? I am not attempting to cast doubt on the machines capabilities, only find answers to my questions but we have established that its a great tuning tool so this seems a really good point to squash as its in the heart of tuning the car. I travel 1 hour past the DP to get to the DD RR as I dont know a thing about it other than you leave the wheels off which as someone with little technical knowledge seems a bit confusing, if we knew the facts there would be no doubt, but we dont and instead we have a lovely thread argueing over it.

Anyone else follow? Its confusing isnt it?

I dont understand it all that why I like the idea of having the wheels on, its just confusing to me  

I am sure I am not the first person to think of this scenario and that Abbey or Dynapack can clarify this a little more as I am sure the machine is far more intelligent that I shall ever be and such a simple question should be very easy to answer.

As for the on going question ' why not put your car on a DP to see the difference' well, if I did that then another tuner would have all the information as to how my car runs and does what it does and I dont want anyone to have this information as its confidential. Its not a case of not wanting to run it there for any other reason than this. Maybe if both parties are interested I will lend them my Stagea to test back to back as its only standard and holds no important information of high power tuning.

As I said at the top, close the thread. Tony said he wont answer anything anyway and all we are doing is going round and round in circles, guessing what we think the differences are. I remember a thread in which Chris from G Force listed answers to questions in extreme detail when we all used the DD rollers for the first time, if only this were true of DP, we could all be happy in the face of knowledge instead we can all just guess at it which adds further mystery to the machine, great

Thats a new one just like Scooby Doo - The Mystery Machine!


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Hi well my experience is not the best and I will admit that but from talking to many other people about the GTR it seems that they are a little laggy. Christ I am not trying to slag them off they are awesome cars but not much seems to happen in the low RPM's I think due to the lag and nature of the engine. I asked people what they could do about this the mian reply I got was change down a gear! Fine no problem to me! okay you can fix it but I wasnt trying to start a slagging match - honest!

Being a dealer I have to learn very fast to understand what I am dealing with so although 6 months ago I may not have known the size of a number plate on a GTR and dont think that has much bearing on anything else. I love to learn more and more about these cars as they are probably the best sports car I have EVER dealt with. 

Why all the bad Karma anyway guys.... ...I am starting to see why Danoh is no longer on the board!

All this Abbey vs. GTart - Dynopack vs. Rolling road cr*p is wearing rather thin, maybe this sort of discussion should be banned!

They are great cars and I love 'em people have different opinions about them and they are entitled to that so act like a community not like a couple of rival gangs!

Someone close this thread please or even better delete it!

Anthony. :smokin:


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

I'm going to close this thread now.

It seems all these discussions end up in the same place, which as Anthony pointed out is the same old and boring tuner vs tuner debate. 

Personally I'm absolutely tired of this sh1t! Living in Japan I have observed how all the tuners and their customers get perfectly along, all competition is friendly and everyone in the scene just enjoys the GTR owning/tuning/racing vibe/experience. Why oh why for fcuk sake can't you people over in the UK do the same!!?? Jesus you really do make me wonder why you even bother owning such a great car as the GTR when all you do is spend time on bloody forums arguing like children when you should be enjoying yourselves with the cars you own!

I've really had enough! 
 

Cem, Peter if you don't agree with me then do what you have to but this thread is just pointless IMO!


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