# DBW pedals



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Any reason to go for an R35 pedal over say a 350z pedal? Also the the DBW actuator what other alternatives are out there? Apart from the BMW M3 pierburg one?


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Have a look on ebay, there's loads of different types and not a lot of money either.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

For me it was the ease of having the information Younes, Nissan were happy to provide the wiring diagram for the pedal and so were BMW.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Looking at a 350z pedal has the 6 needed wires into the motor.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

FRRACER said:


> Looking at a 350z pedal has the 6 needed wires into the motor.


ECU not motor mate but that's all you need, twin potentiometers.

https://www.picoauto.com/library/training/electronic-throttle-control-drive-by-wire-or-fly-by-wire


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

I bought a very nice pedal from a V12 Aston Martin, Dave Rowe still hasn't given it back after scratching his head trying to figure it out.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Who is Dave Rowe? All pedals have two potentiometers right for fail safe?


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

FRRACER said:


> Who is Dave Rowe?


EPS - MoTec

He's got a nice 900bhp 4.2 litre Audi Quattro


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## dA_RoB (Dec 21, 2012)

FRRACER said:


> Who is Dave Rowe? All pedals have two potentiometers right for fail safe?


Yes!

For the throttlebody you can use everything. So, from BMW to Nissan (Ford, Audi...). One of the very common ones it the corvette one - LS2.
However, as we discussed in another thread yesterday, it seems that for example Motec supports only specific throttle bodies, so if you want to use something different, you have to send them what you want to use, so they can test it.
Since you're going with haltech elite this should not be an issue as it already comes with the DBW option. You would just need to find the right settings, but go with their demo programs and just try and error from there. Offcourse, not on the street.

Cheers,
RoB


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

dA_RoB said:


> Yes!
> 
> For the throttlebody you can use everything. So, from BMW to Nissan (Ford, Audi...). One of the very common ones it the corvette one - LS2.


I think you mean actuator and no you can't use everything if you keep the standard throttle body arrangement.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Will be using std multi throttles.


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## dA_RoB (Dec 21, 2012)

matt j said:


> I think you mean actuator and no you can't use everything if you keep the standard throttle body arrangement.


Yes, I mean the actuator as this was his second question. But it's actually the same, you can combine every pedal with every throttlebody. The programming and wiring effort is always the same.

I have seen your thread and I like how you have done it, but basically you can do this with every dbw throttle body out there. Offcourse, only thing necessary is some machining and maybe a little more effort.

Cheers
RoB


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

dA_RoB said:


> Yes, I mean the actuator as this was his second question. But it's actually the same, you can combine every pedal with every throttlebody. The programming and wiring effort is always the same.
> 
> I have seen your thread and I like how you have done it, but basically you can do this with every dbw throttle body out there. Offcourse, only thing necessary is some machining and maybe a little more effort.
> 
> ...


I think you're missing my point Rob, I agree entirely with what you're saying but in order to keep the standard throttle bodies, you're very limited in choice of actuator/stepper; that's the only point I'm trying to make.


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## dA_RoB (Dec 21, 2012)

matt j said:


> I think you're missing my point Rob, I agree entirely with what you're saying but in order to keep the standard throttle bodies, you're very limited in choice of actuator/stepper; that's the only point I'm trying to make.


I did understand and now after looking the m3 dbw actuator, I know why you think that we are limited in options if willing to stay with ITBs.
However, the M3 actuator is the same as the rest as it has an stepper motor which has one rotating axis. This brings me back to machining. Every stepper motor has a rotating axis and if you just remove the trottle plate and install an lever arm to it (and offcourse remove the throttlebody housing), you end up with the same setup. And yes, I know it sounds much easier than it is, however the principle is the same.

We've done the same for the following car as we were limited in space. So basically, there is a simple actuator at the back of the engine with one lever arm which is mechanically diverted (the blue thing in the middle of the airbox) to the 2 levers going to bank1 and bank2.
team-edlinger-racecar

So, what i actually want to say is, if you can transform the actuator rotational force to a longitudal force, which is achieved by a simple lever principle, you're good with any acutator. Which is exactly what happens here (directly comparable to the RB26 ITB system but with only one lever instead of three): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az8OJxlf5oA

I hope You don't see my points here as bashing and provocation but more as an explanation how I am planing on doing it if I don't find the same actuator as you have, which in my opinion still is the perfect and very easy solution.

Cheers,
RoB


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

dA_RoB said:


> I did understand and now after looking the m3 dbw actuator, I know why you think that we are limited in options if willing to stay with ITBs.


How many other manufacturers designed an actuator with the required motive force to drive MTBs?



dA_RoB said:


> However, the M3 actuator is the same as the rest as it has an stepper motor which has one rotating axis. This brings me back to machining. Every stepper motor has a rotating axis and if you just remove the trottle plate and install an lever arm to it (and offcourse remove the throttlebody housing), you end up with the same setup. And yes, I know it sounds much easier than it is, however the principle is the same.


I wasn't interested in calculating leverage, why not use something which is cheap, readily available and more importantly, proven?



dA_RoB said:


> So, what i actually want to say is, if you can transform the actuator rotational force to a longitudal force, which is achieved by a simple lever principle, you're good with any acutator. Which is exactly what happens here (directly comparable to the RB26 ITB system but with only one lever instead of three): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=az8OJxlf5oA


Here's mine...

VID00017-20130215-1525_zps8934b74e.mp4 Video by mattyjeff | Photobucket



dA_RoB said:


> I hope You don't see my points here as bashing and provocation but more as an explanation how I am planing on doing it if I don't find the same actuator as you have, which in my opinion still is the perfect and very easy solution.
> 
> Cheers,
> RoB


Not at all mate.


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## dA_RoB (Dec 21, 2012)

> How many other manufacturers designed an actuator with the required motive force to drive MTBs?


The actuators are pretty strong, all of them. Much stronger than they should be, so not seeing any issues with that. 




> I wasn't interested in calculating leverage, why not use something which is cheap, readily available and more importantly, proven?


Well, my last sentence in the last post should make it clear that i like your system and, that I will use probably the same actuator if i manage to find it. If not, the probably the LS2 will be the one I'll take as second option.
However, other stuff has been proven too (Look at the example i linked in my previous post, showing a racecar using a completely different actuator to drive 8 ITBs) and there are a lot of other people on the internet who used different stuff for their ITB setups.




> Here's mine...
> 
> VID00017-20130215-1525_zps8934b74e.mp4 Video by mattyjeff | Photobucket


Saw this video before. Also the pictures, but it seems I have them saved on my companies pc and in your thread the pictures have dissapeared. The only thing I don't like about this system is that you used the link above the intake manifold to move the other 4 throttleplates. This is what I want to get rid of and link the actuator directly to all of them.

Cheers,
RoB


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

dA_RoB said:


> The actuators are pretty strong, all of them.


That wasn't what I experienced or research led me to believe. So I'll bow out. 



dA_RoB said:


> The only thing I don't like about this system is that you used the link above the intake manifold to move the other 4 throttleplates. This is what I want to get rid of and link the actuator directly to all of them.


There's a specific reason I kept the design Nissan used (with minimal engineering alterations) but it sounds like I don't need to teach you to suck eggs. Best of luck, post pics when you've finished, genuinely interested if you come up with a better/simpler solution and perhaps develop a kit (that doesn't cost £1000 as one trader reckoned it costs) as there is definitely a growing interest in DBW these days.


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Apologies if you have covered this point earlier in the thread.

Drive by Wire throttle pedals require two potentiometers that provide outputs acting in opposite directionns as the throttle pedal is pressed.

Something like this would work fine.
The first potentiometer will create an output from 0.5 volts to 4.5volts
The second potentiometer will create an output from 4.5 volts to 0.5 volts

Any throttle pedal with two potentiometers will work as long as it can be configured as above.

The ECU checks that both voltages are working in a matched way at all times, if not the ECU will cut the output to ensure there is not a failure of one part of the electronic circuit.

From memory there are two potentiometers at the motor end as well for exactly the same reason.


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## dA_RoB (Dec 21, 2012)

matt j said:


> There's a specific reason I kept the design Nissan used (with minimal engineering alterations) but it sounds like I don't need to teach you to suck eggs. Best of luck, post pics when you've finished, genuinely interested if you come up with a better/simpler solution and perhaps develop a kit (that doesn't cost £1000 as one trader reckoned it costs) as there is definitely a growing interest in DBW these days.


No, not interested in an extremely expensive system. Never was, never will be. Your system probably was very inexpensive and works as well.
1000gbp? well, this seems quite expensive, but again, when i look at the prices of some cam/crank trigger systems offered in different forums (and here), i should not be surprised. however, I'm not going to sell the system but just want it to work perfectly for my own sake.

One of the specific reasons you're mentioning is probably the lack of available space, but this I will find out when I go on and do this modification. However, this is the plan for the next winter and in the meantime I'm looking forward on what FRRACER is going to build and on gathering new ideas  After all, there's always something new to learn! But thanks for the heads up 

Cheers,
RoB


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I do have my work cut out list of things to sort out and not enough time.. I'm keen to get the DBW implemented sooner rather than later and also nail the final spec with new cams.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Check out a few of the late model Nissans. I'm told the 350Z and Primera one are much the same and will bolt in.
We have used Ford Falcon and Fiesta, Chev/Holden, Audi/VW


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Hugh Keir said:


> Apologies if you have covered this point earlier in the thread.
> 
> Drive by Wire throttle pedals require two potentiometers that provide outputs acting in opposite directionns as the throttle pedal is pressed.
> 
> ...


Spot on Hugh. Another thing to consider is whether you look for actuator position, TPS or both.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Sub Boy said:


> Check out a few of the late model Nissans. I'm told the 350Z and Primera one are much the same and will bolt in.
> We have used Ford Falcon and Fiesta, Chev/Holden, Audi/VW


Picked up a 350z pedal with potentiometer for £40 so will see how that fits.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

FRRACER said:


> Picked up a 350z pedal with potentiometer for £40 so will see how that fits.


Remember you'll also need a travel stop for the pedal as well Younes.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

matt j said:


> Spot on Hugh. Another thing to consider is whether you look for actuator position, TPS or both.


From a controls point of view your mapping the engine against what it is actually seeing so you would use throttle position (i.e if the actuator has moved but throttle hasn't you wouldn't want to add fuel ect). 

I don't know why you would consider actuator position as an input to anything

Anything driver demand related should be triggered from accel pedal position


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

David said:


> I don't know why you would consider actuator position as an input to anything


BMW use TPS and Actuator position in their DBW.
A delta between the 2 throws an error code, presumably for linkage wear or failure.


TPS in purple, ACT in blue...


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## kaboobie (Oct 11, 2014)

Great thread guys. 

I am looking to do this as well. Hope the M150 won't have any problem. Hope you guy can help me as I am not as proficient as you guys. 

Rob, any progress on your end ?

Thanks in advance


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## dA_RoB (Dec 21, 2012)

kaboobie said:


> Great thread guys.
> 
> I am looking to do this as well. Hope the M150 won't have any problem. Hope you guy can help me as I am not as proficient as you guys.
> 
> ...


Hi!

I'm not going to do anything before the winter. It's summer time which means the car has to be driven and not worked on 

Did some consideration however:
The 350Z pedal goes really cheap even with the potentiometer mounted. Will get this within the next few weeks so I don't have the hassle during the winter time. It is nearly plug and play mounting wise, which makes it the optimum choice for this.
The actuator I'm going to use is the one suggested by matt j for two reasons: 1. it is very cheap, 2. it does not need any machining.
The initial plan was to use the LS2 actuator and machine it, however, this would mean more $$$ as i need to get it machined and at the moment I have no good contacts for such a proceeding.

Cheers,
RoB


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

I have an RB26 Drive by Wire set-up that is installed on a set of 50mm throttle bodies and a heavily ported Greddy manifold.

Happy to sell the set-up at a reasonable cost if that is of interest.

Thanks

Hugh


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## kaboobie (Oct 11, 2014)

Hugh Keir said:


> I have an RB26 Drive by Wire set-up that is installed on a set of 50mm throttle bodies and a heavily ported Greddy manifold.
> 
> Happy to sell the set-up at a reasonable cost if that is of interest.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the post. Can you tell me more about the set up ? Do I have to modify anything ? 

I am still in the phase of collecting information but if I can easily buy it and it's hassle free I can do that also.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Hugh Keir said:


> I have an RB26 Drive by Wire set-up that is installed on a set of 50mm throttle bodies and a heavily ported Greddy manifold.
> 
> Happy to sell the set-up at a reasonable cost if that is of interest.
> 
> ...


How much Hugh, PM me if you would please mate.


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## kaboobie (Oct 11, 2014)

Matt, if you get Hugh's set up would you consider selling yours 

I am seriously going to do this. Or if you just want the ID, I can get the set up.


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

I also have a set of cylinders with my own design of low friction seals and high flow solenoids to automate the up and down changes on the gearbox.

Also a 200psi air pump and some reservoirs that were going to be used to automate the 4WD clutch as well as power the sequential change.

Also got some expensive Bosch load cells somewhere that I had planned to use to automate my sequential gearbox.

The system needs brackets manufactured to hold the gear change cylinder to the gearbox, but other than the plumbing is complete. 

Here is a picture of the inside of the Greddy plenum.

Thanks

Hugh


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## kaboobie (Oct 11, 2014)

Thank you for the picture Hugh. Do you have other pictures of how the actuator is linking to the throttle bodies. What pedal sensor did you use ?


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## kaboobie (Oct 11, 2014)

matt j said:


> Remember you'll also need a travel stop for the pedal as well Younes.


Hi Matt,

I hope you can answer three of my questions. 

- Did you use the actuator from the E46 or E92 M3 ?
- Where/how do you position the actuator ? The pictures from the old thread are all gone.
- How do you connect the Penny and Giles TPS ? Why does the R33 TPS not work with motec ? Is it not detailed enough ?

Thank you.:bowdown1:


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

kaboobie said:


> Thank you for the picture Hugh. Do you have other pictures of how the actuator is linking to the throttle bodies. What pedal sensor did you use ?


Sorry kaboobie, I don't seem to have any other pictures of the DBW set-up, all the stuff is sitting at RB Motorsport apart from some of the sensors.

They are pretty busy just now, but will be able to get some pictures in time.

I think I used a throttle pedal from a Corsa, it was easy enough to modify to fit the R32 GTR floor.

Thanks

Hugh


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