# Just had an interesting conversation with my Insurer



## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Perhaps I've been living in fantasy land, deluded that the high premium I've been paying provides me with true insurance cover, I don't know. However just in case I'm not alone it seemed beneficial to share this with you all.

I have been insured through A-Plan for many years and have had no complaints about the service at all. 

The entire spec sheet of mods for the Garage Bomber (two pages of it) was declared to keep everything above board.

My renewal is just about to come up and having undertaken a number of upgrades I rang them up to check on what changes are permitted on value notification and advise I would be sending through a statement on upgrades which they should take into account for my renewal.

So, what was the response?

Firstly, the policies do not cover anything of greater value than £40k and if in the event of a total then if they find on assessment you have "undervalued" for insurance purposes they would adjust the payout by the equivalent percentage. No surprise there, which is why I wanted to adjust the value, however the 40K limit was.

However, he then went on to say for valuation purposes they would refer to autotrader to see what the market price was. I suggested that might be a bit difficult as the car is heavily modified with large numbers of custom parts, like many GTRs. His reply was, perhaps, but in reality the assessors would simply consider the car as a 1996 R33 Vspec worth something between 10 and 15k and that is what they would offer to pay. My suggestion that the engine alone was worth several times that gained the response, "doesn't matter, that is all they would pay. They may make some additional allowance for parts, secondhand price only, however it wouldn't be much and 15k was likely to be the maximum. He then went on to add, of course the insurer only ever replaces with standard parts anyway. Pardon? In the terms of your policy you will find a statement that they would only replace parts with standard items. So I ask, if I have a front ender and crush my Trust four row intercooler and make a claim you would fit a standard GT-R intercooler? Yes he said. But it wouldn't work with a standard intercooler, says I. Well those are the terms of the policy, all policies, he says.

Also be interesting if you lost your Du-Luck body kit and when collecting your car find it had standard bumper, skirts etc. Oh your TE37's? No, we only replace with original wheels..........

The A-Plan man insists I was told this. No I wasn't, says I. He insisted I was when I first took the policy out. Oh, how would you know, it was years ago (probably before he even worked for A-Plan) and it is definitely something I would remember. 

His best offer? Take out an agreed value policy. Ok, what have you got. Sorry, we don't do them, look in the back of the car mags for a Company who do them........

OK. I don't expect anyone to just write you a blank cheque against a claim, however having required you to declare modifications (fair enough helps assess risk) knowing full well all cars of this nature are heavily modified, and paying the consequential premium, and declare an estimated value, to basically then say well all that doesn't matter, we will effectively treat it as of standard car market value for payout purposes seems to me to be ludicrous.

This all strikes me as the insurer trying to have it both ways, charge you more for all the enhancements but ignore them in the event they have to pay out. Where is the logic in that I ask you? Talk about having you by the balls.

It seems the age old rule applies, don't ever crunch it yourself always make sure it is someone else who hits you! Although even then you may find the other Company applies the same rules too.

Anyone recommend a good agreed value policy supplier? 

DaveG


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## Rich B (Mar 7, 2005)

yep.. you hit it on the head.. 
they want it both ways.. (charge you for the additional risk but not pay out for said risk..good aint it..)
and they wonder why people wont declare mods.


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## 763paf (Sep 18, 2004)

That is absolute cr&^P Sorry. You have made me worried now, as my car is probably worth £5000-7000, but i have spent £20000 on it!!!!!!!
better go read my insurance fine print!


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## Spoons (Jul 6, 2005)

Fck .. How bad is that.... I'm with A plan renewal up in July, I wasn't told anything about the standard parts for modified parts claus. By declaring the entire spec of the car to them I took it (wrongly by the sound of it) that you were insuring replaced parts like for like in the event of a claim. I'm going the "agreed value" route at renewal will watch this thread for company recomendations.


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## plkettle (Feb 2, 2004)

I spent 25 grand on my R33gtr vspec in total and i declared all mods and paid the huge premium only to find they offered me 11 grand when i had a crash !!!!!!!

the final offer after 6 months was 13 grand which i reluctantly had to accept 

now i have a agreed value on my 32gtr but you will find it hard to get it agreed more than 30% on top of the book price !!!!!!! that is their general limit for the values or so im told.

INSURANCE COMPANIES GET AWAY WITH FAR TOO MUCH.


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## Nick MW (Aug 15, 2003)

I managed to find an agreed value policy for exactly this reason and had to get a formal valuation to back up the amount.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Greenlight, before they changed thier policies, used to insure all mods like for like

mook


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## RedsunsFD (May 5, 2006)

...Thats a total b*tch, they dont cover modifications?! They cant treat them as standard parts.

When my parents were involved in a crash (our estate was sationary, not moving) some fool ploughed in to the back of it, totally standard vehicle, no modifications or anything and mind you, this car was at least 10 years old we still managed to get £9,000 for it but then again there was nothing worth salvaging from it. 

Point still stands, having a car replaced with totally standard parts is ridiculous, I'll be sure to check this the day I insure a Skyline.


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

i posted this about A PLAN a few weeks back but no one seemed to take any notice they told me not to insure my R34GTR with them because there top price for a 1999 r34gtr v spec was £23,000-£25,000 and R33GTR,S about£13,000.thay told me to try adrean flux but thay said it was to valuable and to modified for them.i can see what your up against if you want to insure your car correctly thay told me most people dont ask as meany questions as i did becuse most people just want insurance as chaep as they can get it and they even admitted to me that most people with modified skylines with them are probebly under insured or there policys would be invalid.as i posted a few weeks ago i think there getting harder to insure now,and i still think it,s becuse of the CHAV factor, lets face it you can now buy a skyline for anything as low as £3,000 it mite be a gts but it still a group 20 skyline they class them all the same.i was with compertition car insurance last year under there road sports car policy but now they have stopped doing that one,they did offer a policy under there demon tweeks policy but **** me i only wanted to insure the car not buy the ****ing company NISMOMAN


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Sean, sorry I was one of those who missed your post. Makes you wonder if A-Plan don't really want the business anymore. I've currently got someone looking into available "agreed value" policies.
DaveG


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

DaveG,

I went throught the same with A-Plan when I had the TS engine and OS gearbox shoved in.
A-Plan wouldn't insure it any more.

Rang numerous companies, and the only one who would give me an agreed value of £55K+ was Adrian Flux. Tried just about every other 'specialist' insurer in the book and no-one else would give an agreed value, never mind book value 

Let us know how you get on mate.....


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

So now we know the real reason why A-Plan are so cheap, pity I`m insured with them  

So my car is worth with mods about £17,000 - A-Plan will give me book price £3,000.........methinks I`m changing policys come July 

And for the record, they never told me either - just asked what the total value of the cars was with mods.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

OK guys, latest update. AF couldn't give offer realistic cover based on value/horsepower. What I have discovered is that the A-Plan policies are competitive because there is a direct correlation between the "book" value and the premium, if that makes sense. I was paying £800 for fully comp (yes, I'm a sad old git), which relates to about £15,000 value (payout) even though the car is declared as considerably higher value. Elsewhere, for an agreed value of say £40k you can double the premium, and for £75k (maximum!) more than triple it. This would also be restricted mileage (5,000) and SDP only, plus you would need an independent valuation. At least A-Plan was unrestricted mileage and covered me for business use. Mods fully declared in all instances.

Interestingly, I've been told that whilst we may think this is a problem, it would be nothing in comparison to trying to persuade a third party insurer of the value of your car. So if someone took you out Trev, if the repairs are more than about £2,000 you might find the other drivers insurer would try and write it off!  

I think I was happier in my fantasy land............. blissful ignorance.


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## Nick MW (Aug 15, 2003)

I feel much more comfortable with a formal valuation on file with my insurance company and an agreed value policy for that very reason.

I agree completely ATCO, insurance seems to get harder and harder every year for these cars


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

ATCO said:


> Interestingly, I've been told that whilst we may think this is a problem, it would be nothing in comparison to trying to persuade a third party insurer of the value of your car. So if someone took you out Trev, if the repairs are more than about £2,000 you might find the other drivers insurer would try and write it off!
> 
> I think I was happier in my fantasy land............. blissful ignorance.


That`s what worries me now. Tbh I think 90% of people are ignorant to this fact - hopefully this thread will be an eye opener.


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

DAVE give M C E a ring i,ve just insured the r34 with them with all the mods listed with a £41,000 valuation with every thing listed and in writing on the policy and the price was unberleavable to say the least NISMOMAN


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## ITSt (Apr 28, 2006)

Yep, try MCE, a real eye opener for me (see separate thread). Beat everyone else plus they took the value of the car that I set it at and not the "book value". Very knowledgeable operator too.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

got mine with AON, agreed value, limited miles 5000 pa SDP only, all mods declared.


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## scw02102 (Mar 14, 2006)

yeah I'm with MCE

were the best by far 

also though in legal cover, accident damage to me and free UK & european breakdown cover


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Got a quote from Hyperformance (and very reasonable it was too!!) and the chap did state that they would replace modified parts with modified parts so give them a call. I think it was 0800 0682933  

TT


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## A-Plan (May 30, 2006)

*MODIFICATIONS & A-PLAN*

I feel a response is probably justified and necessary to clarify our postion in respect to modifications.

We always request a full breakdown of modifications carried out to any vehicle, however as I'm sure you are all aware, many of these may have been carried out in Japan prior to the vehicle coming to the UK, and any purchaser/owner may be unaware of their exsistence. For this reason we do not guarantee to replace modifications on a like for like basis. We always attempt to be upfront and honest when selling motor insurance policies and will endeavour to highlight worst case scenarios!!!!

If a vehicle has been modified the insurer (we are the broker) will always attempt to replace parts on a like for like basis, however where parts are unavailable or the lead time for delivery is particulary long then either standard part or cash in lieu may be offered. We do not undertake to guarantee something that may not be in our power to provide.

Furthermore if we feel the value of the vehicle to be particulary high, we will again express our concern that the policy will meet any clients expectation in respect to a payout. We do not offer agreed value, but do recommend that all vehicles are photographed advantageously from several angles, all receipts for any work carried out kept safely with full service records (not in the car) and if a particulary high value an enginners valuation sought. All these factors will then be taken into account when valuing a vehicle in the event of theft or total loss. If we still feel the value requested exceeds those likely to be offered by an insurer we will, to protect any clients interest, recommend any alternative policy is sought that will offer to insure the vehicle at that price. We are not in the habit of taking money where we feel the clients intersts are not being best served.

We strive hard to provide an efficient friendly and competative service and I hope this clarifies our position.

Yours

A-Plan Insurance


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## Rich B (Mar 7, 2005)

so basically youre saying you may or may not pay out, not a great deal of use that..
in the event of a claim its too late.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

What position do you hold at A-Plan?



A-Plan said:


> however where parts are unavailable or the lead time for delivery is particulary long


How long is too long? I have waited many months to get money out of insurance companies. Surely an insurer could wait 6 weeks for parts to be sent from Japan.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Reviewed policy small print and this is where you can get into the symmantics.

General reference is to "market value of the vehicle" which, in the absence of any other information is likely to be something like Glasses or similar. However, if you possess a recent professional independent valuation that relates to your specific vehicle, then it would be grounds to make a valid claim/demonstration of "market value" of the vehicle.

With respect to parts, reference is made to up to value of "manufacturers" parts. There is ambiguity as if you had a Du-Luck, Veilside, HKS whatever then that is the manufacturer, or is the interpretation that it is "Nissan"? Personally I think it is reasonable to say such a generalised phrase means the manufacturer of the part on the car is the "manufacturer", so its effectively like for like. However, it would be wise to have evidence in support of your "as fitted" claim through either receipts or photographs. Quite possible you should get a complete "inventory" done of the car as part of your independent valuation.

I appreciate "A Plans" comments above, if a part is no longer available, then no amount of money can address that. However, tradition is that in such instances something having the same form, fit and function should be used on the basis of what is reasonable.

DaveG


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

glad to see dave that people are starting to look a little deeper into some of these policys,when you look at some of the small print you could interpretate it in different ways which i suppose will always come out in there favour NISMOMAN


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## Califunky (Oct 24, 2005)

I got myself insured with Chaucer (through HIC) and they have given me an agreed valuation with like for like replacements on all declared mods ( i have declared all mods so far) as long as thr form was signed by an owners club rep, trade body or the like. 

Got mine signed by the club chairman in the end and the guy i deal with on the phone runs the same car so he's very understanding and knowledgeable.


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## blueskygtr (Mar 24, 2004)

Whilst i am in full agreement with the concerns of all of us and having had to deal with a claim recently i must express my amazement at A-Plan actually taking the time and making the effort to reply to this thread :smokin: 

I think it shows great attention to the situation in hand and the concerns of those insured with them. 

This simple act would seriously tempt me to insure with them purely on the basis that they are trying to understand and find the best policies for us.

Our cars are invariably very highly modified and from and insurers point of view must be very difficult to replicate

I would respectfully suggest that A-Plan develop a policy with one or two insurers specifically designed for our vehicles and then promote it heavily 
I (like most otheres i suspect) would pay higher premiums if i had in writing a definative policy purely designed to replace what is our pride and joy.

Insurers should recognise the fact we are not just boy racers but respectable, responsible adults with generally good incomes and spending what would is considered by some to be ridiculous sums on our cars through a simple passion for the marque. 

My two penneth

Jay


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## stuartstaples (Nov 14, 2004)

As above 
Would like clarification of any contract, particularly one so ambiguous as a modified car policy.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Mine is insured for £30.000 ,they woulde'nt do more than that ,bet I would not get that though if it was written off


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

A-Plan said:


> I feel a response is probably justified and necessary to clarify our postion in respect to modifications.
> 
> We always request a full breakdown of modifications carried out to any vehicle, however as I'm sure you are all aware, many of these may have been carried out in Japan prior to the vehicle coming to the UK, and any purchaser/owner may be unaware of their exsistence. For this reason we do not guarantee to replace modifications on a like for like basis. We always attempt to be upfront and honest when selling motor insurance policies and will endeavour to highlight worst case scenarios!!!!
> 
> ...


sounds more like a lottery than insurance to me


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

That's a fairly standard wording as we had something similiar on the insurance documents I created a few years back. Insurance is a lottery to be honest but a lottery for the insurer as they have to try to guess how much everything is going to cost and the profit margins currently are very low - an insurer may only be making in reality about £20 to £40 on an average policy (if they are lucky) usually a bit more on our sort of cars but they also carrier a fair higher risk (rainy day money in a sense).


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

The problem is the cost to repair not the cost to replace the vehicle as most accidents of higher value vehicles result in repairs, to give you an example of how many accidents happen this is from Privilege's site...



> In the first annual Privilege Insurance British Accident Survey, almost four in ten current drivers (38 per cent) said they had been involved in a motoring incident of some form in 2004, compared to the 13 per cent recorded in official government figures.
> 
> The majority of 2004’s ‘hidden accidents’, it seems, were minor incidents with almost half (47 per cent) occurring while a vehicle was car parked, such as losing a wing mirror (experienced by 11 per cent of those drivers who failed to report such incidents) or smashing a light (4 per cent). However, in some cases, severe accidents which involved a car being written off (3 per cent of current drivers who didn’t report incidences) or even a person being slightly injured (2 per cent) went unreported.
> 
> Even when minor damage is incurred, a quarter of current drivers who only experienced minor damage in 2004 spent money fixing the problem and two per cent had to take time off work to sort out repairs.


The reason most insurers will not insure us is that it is too difficult to get a handle on the cost of repairs (and hire car charges waiting for specialists or parts to arrive from Japan). Systems like Nissan FAST cost the damage quickly and insurers use these systems to gauge car groups etc but modded cars have no real easy costing system (trick paint jobs, body kits, very expensive alloys etc).


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## Rich B (Mar 7, 2005)

"Systems like Nissan FAST cost the damage quickly and insurers use these systems to gauge car groups etc but modded cars have no real easy costing system (trick paint jobs, body kits, very expensive alloys etc)."

thats why we declare them to insurers and give a generally higher valuation of the car! im sure most people would then have receipts for the modifications theyve had done should a claim arrise, for FMIC, uprated turbos, special paint finishes etc... Whether the insurers can get the same parts isnt really the issue, so long as we know the monetary value will be covered.


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

So there isnt any real point in insuring you R33 for more than £15k even if it worth £30k with all the parts as you wont get it. The way i see is that we are trapped. We are not allowed not to declare mods as the policy is void and when we do declare everything we not only get charged more, there is a 90% chance that we will only get market value of a std GTR in return. How daft is that. Someone is making a lot of money of this.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Gez said:


> So there isnt any real point in insuring you R33 for more than £15k even if it worth £30k with all the parts as you wont get it. The way i see is that we are trapped. We are not allowed not to declare mods as the policy is void and when we do declare everything we not only get charged more, there is a 90% chance that we will only get market value of a std GTR in return. How daft is that. Someone is making a lot of money of this.


Nobody make any real money out of it, that is a false assumption that I used to have also before I started to work in insurance (I don't work in it now by the way).

Most insurers work of the principle of having the use of your money and making profit from investments, in fact some insurers give out more money in claims than they take in - I have seen claim ratios of 106% before! Most insurers have claim ratios of about 90% to 95% meaning they give back in claims about 90% to 95% of the money they collect - they have to pay their staff, premises and make a profit etc out of the other 5% to 10%!

The sad fact is that as so few people have GT-Rs and modded one that even one big claim fcuks up the statistics for everyone (one guy dies in an accident could means a claim ratio of 1000% easily for GT-Rs). Put yourself in the insurers shoes for a moment... Joe Bloggs comes along with a modded GT-R, you have little stats on the mods - will they brake in an accident (aftermarket alloys do as one did on me!), will they cause an accident (modded engine seizes) etc, will they kill the driver (aftermarket steering wheel). You have no easy way to price parts either or where they are placed (each part has a % of how likely it is to be damaged in an accident) and you have to assume what is known as "worse case scenerio" i.e. the client is a hood who will tell you whatever to get money out of you.

The policy pricing is not for replacement parts but for how much of an "Unassessed" risk they impose which is why some run schemes like 10% extra for each new mod etc.

You can get value rated policies but these only work if the car is stolen (unrecovered) or written off totally overwise you have to start costing the price of repairs (and the labour for a specialist - authorised garages have agreed rates with insurers), time for parts delivery (you are allowed a hire car for this period) and unless you specify each new part and second hand value (which is ALL you are due as insurance has only to leave you in the same money value situation as before the accident). You have to pay someone to do all these calculations and research which for a small number of cars is not worth the hassle.

The A-plan policy can leave them open in some ways as in law the insurance has to cover you for getting you back to the value of the vehicle after the accident unless the policy states otherwise which is why you should ALWAYS read the small print - under insuring is not allowed unless stated in the policy.

Insurers started adding more and more "clauses" like terrorism, standard parts etc after the hoods starting ripping them out so don't blame the insurer but the chavy little b()llock down the road who claims his Nova is worth £10,000 as it has a one off body kit.

An engineer's report and agreed value for each non-standard part is the only way to be truly sure you don't get screwed and only top end insurers will handle these (Pearts etc maybe).


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## kenan (Apr 29, 2003)

I said about this 2/3 months ago and was told I was being stupid, they said they would only offer me the black book price for my Stage 1 R33 GTR which was about 9K.

Now with Greenlight and an agreed value of 16K for the same price A-Plan offered


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## DaleHarrison (Nov 16, 2005)

Whilst I really appreciate A-Plan commenting on this thread, I think a lot of effort should be taken into account with staff actually taking the time to explain this when a policy is being taken out as (myself for one) it seems that quite a few people have taken out insurance policies with A-Plan and other companies without really thinking into deep depth about what would happen in the case of total loss.
I think that the euphoria of getting a quote that in my case was 40% less than the nearest rival took over any feelings of actually checking out what the policy gave me in the event of a claim.

I most certainly wasn't explained at the beginning of the quote that any modified parts would only be replaced by standard items, and that information seems to conflict with what was said by 'A-Plan' above as some people have been verbally told on the phone that it is a standard replacement of a part, where as A-Plan has said that where possible its like for like.

Could we get some clarification on the position you hold within A-Plan please? It would be useful to know how much authority what you have said is actually held within A-Plan.

Many thanks

Dale.


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## JOE GTR (Jun 23, 2006)

Hey guys, I'm 22 Years old my first years insurance policy and have had a quote for £1600 for a Nissan Skyline R33 GTR... Can any of you tell me whether thats any good from experience?


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## kenan (Apr 29, 2003)

JOE GTR said:


> Hey guys, I'm 22 Years old my first years insurance policy and have had a quote for £1600 for a Nissan Skyline R33 GTR... Can any of you tell me whether thats any good from experience?


Thats a very good quote, but that would be for a standard one. I now bet you can't find a standard one


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## Reno_gtr (Jul 10, 2006)

JOE GTR said:


> Hey guys, I'm 22 Years old my first years insurance policy and have had a quote for £1600 for a Nissan Skyline R33 GTR... Can any of you tell me whether thats any good from experience?



what insurance company you with? or where you get that quote?  

cheers reno


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## neil c (Jul 11, 2006)

i would like to know how mick (jun lemon r33) and tim (top secret r33) insure their skylines. which way have you gone about it guys as it seems no matter wot the smallprint on your insurance for a skyline says, most insurance companies are all going to be able to interpretate it diffently to the owners and not cover for wot they have said???


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## Bladebird (Dec 20, 2005)

Hi chaps, had very similar experience. Since all our mods have been done both the dogs live in the car [ beats any alarm ] and we now drive at 30 mph......seriously it is becoming a problem


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I think its unfair to complain about A-plan in particular, this is the case with nearly all insurance companies - unless you have an agreed value cover. It has been this way for many many years, yes its unfair, but lets face it as long as the government does nothing about the way insurance companies rip people off it wont change.


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