# Top Speed Lemon



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

After a lot of talking and thinking with Tweenirob. We were going to try and get in the top 5 of the 0 to 300 klm skyline records. which it would of done.
We both have decided to go full out on a top speed record.
Gonna change the diffs and turbos and aero work and go full out for 250 mph.

The Jun Super Lemon as you may know was a sister car for the Hyper Lemon.
All the parts were developed in the Super Lemon for the Hyper Lemons top speed runs in the 49th Bonneville Speed Trials. JUN Hyper Lemon R33 made a new world record of 383.715km/h in the F/BGCC Class.

Which is 383.715 kilometer/hour = 238.429 447 029 mile/hour (mph)

So now the Super Lemon is going for its sister cars record.

This is the next step i am going to do with the car. Its done its 9 second pass.
Its done its 0 to 1 mile 200 mph.

I just need a challenge. 

And i think this is the one.

Lot of work to do over the winter not just to the car . But to sort a venue out that will have a big long straight. I would like to see a 4 to 5 mile straight to be safe to do this.

Anyway that's the crack with the Lemon.

Mick


----------



## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

That's quite some challenge mate - for both you and the car.


----------



## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

Cheers for the update - be great to hear how the preparations go.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Cool, are you going to set the car up in a wind tunnel to make sure it doesn't go the Jun RX7 way.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

I know Daz mate.

Its all or bust on this one. Lots of safety requirements are need to stop the car from flipping over so its gonna be a challenge. But we will do it.

Mick


----------



## tim b (Jan 5, 2004)

Good luck Mick. :thumbsup:


----------



## ROB_GTR (Dec 5, 2005)

sounds like a plan and a hell of a good idea!

hope it and you can do it! :bowdown1:


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Cool, are you going to set the car up in a wind tunnel to make sure it doesn't go the Jun RX7 way.


Yes mate it has to be done correctly as i am driving.

Mick


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

We will be in close contact with Jun on this one.


Mick


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Good luck Mick


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Hugh Keir said:


> Good luck Mick


Cheers Hugh.

Mick


----------



## Bajie (Dec 13, 2001)

I think its great that you have set yourself this challenge and even better that you have said what your aim is.
I'll follow this one.
Hope it goes really well for you and the team at Perfect Touch.

Are Jun wanting to be involved in this?


----------



## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

WOW, i really hope you manage to do this.
Thats one heck off a target so the best of luck to you.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Bajie said:


> I think its great that you have set yourself this challenge and even better that you have said what your aim is.
> I'll follow this one.
> Hope it goes really well for you and the team at Perfect Touch.
> 
> Are Jun wanting to be involved in this?



I do hope so Bajie. But after a few people's outbursts on here a while back Mr Tanaka got peed off to say the least. Which left me with a sour face as i told him the gtr forum was a good place. So Hopefully he can be talked into showing his face again. He loves a challenge and no doubt in my mind he will be backing us 100%. 


Mick


----------



## andy42uk (Sep 17, 2005)

Mick,
I do not often post on your threads as your in the skyline elite and I have very little to offer at that level.
This time though I offer all my support and appreciation for this brave move.
I doubt there is anything I could do to help, but if so just ask.
Well done for having a go, and being so clear and focused, thank you.
Best regards,
Andy.


----------



## Falcone (Jan 31, 2005)

Thats quite a challenge and great that your going for it.
Keep us updated on the progress - looking forward to hearing how preps go.
Best of luck.


----------



## MartinC (Jan 1, 2006)

That is quite a target to go for, best of luck in acheiving it.


----------



## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

Would be a great achievement Mick. Looking forward to follow your progress in this project.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

andy42uk said:


> Mick,
> I do not often post on your threads as your in the skyline elite and I have very little to offer at that level.
> This time though I offer all my support and appreciation for this brave move.
> I doubt there is anything I could do to help, but if so just ask.
> ...


Thank you very much Andy.

I do not think there is anything else i can do to the car to be honest with you. It weighs more than a standard car. I cant compete in the high level anymore as she keeps on breaking drive train things. I think it is time to move her on to a diffrent thing's.

Mick

PS i am not in the elite i just love the car. And if i can ever help you in any way please just ask.

Mick


----------



## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Mick, Here's an idea for a venue - have a crack at the worlds fastest speed in a car on ice - 

The record is held by a near standard Bentley Continental GT at just over 200mph a world record which would easily be in you sights and who knows you might crack the 250 there at the same time as the low temps will help. 

"Rally ace Kankkunen tops ice speed record 

March 2, 2007

Helsinki, Finland - Former Finnish ace rally driver Juha Kankkunen has set a world speed record for driving on ice.

His former co-driver, Juha Repo, said the four-times World Rally champion set the record with a Bentley Continental GT on the frozen Gulf of Bothnia some 600km north-west of Helsinki. 

He reached a maximum of 321km/h (200mph) but his average over a measured kilometre in each direction beat the previous record set in 1995 by Gildo Pallanca-Pastor of Monaco a Bugatti EB110 Supersport. - AFP"

Look it up on google - it's on youtube.


----------



## andy42uk (Sep 17, 2005)

Thanks Mick,
Oh the ice idea sounds like an express-way to death, stay on course, you can do it.
Andy.


----------



## PMJ (Sep 11, 2001)

Mick, I think your just bloody brilliant... you and Rob...need any help give me a shout... I know **** all but would love to see this.... well done fella


----------



## bkvj (Feb 13, 2006)

HUGE project. good luck with this mick, i do think you could use a fair bit of that now!

you've got a top team behind you though, thats for sure


----------



## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

where on earth are you going to find a 5mile straight in the UK?

Are you open to foreign options?


----------



## MeLLoN Stu (Jun 9, 2005)

that's quite a target you've set yourself Mick! 

Where are you planning on trying this? It's going to take some effort to get to 250 in terms of aerodynamics and power! Credit to you for stepping upto the plate and having a go mate, you've certainly got the right car for it!


----------



## Nocturnal (Nov 5, 2004)

Go on Mick... We need to get you into the record book!!!

For all the hard work you had done, you deserve to go down in history!!! Best of luck to you and the team! :thumbsup:


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Adam Kindness said:


> where on earth are you going to find a 5mile straight in the UK?
> 
> Are you open to foreign options?


We will be open to all areas in Europe. But we really want to do it in the UK.

We have got to get the press and TV companies involved as well.


If they don't want it because its an old Datsun then we will make our own plans.


Mick


----------



## Major_Sarcasm (Jul 28, 2004)

The very best of luck, Mick. I hope you succeed. In fact, I'm fairly confident that you will.


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

The Autobanh Supra recently did 231.66 mph from a 1mile standing start, so maybe you dont need 5 miles anyhow.

Unless your using a M-way you got no chance in the UK of finding a place capable of more than about 1.5miles of acceleration, best bet is the VW test track in germany, thats got a long enough straight.

Though its probably wise to get to the point where the car is certain to manage it before contacting media or whatever trying to find a place to do it.


----------



## hyrev (Apr 30, 2004)

Mick, I know you can do it! Good luck and have fun with it. 
I am sure you are aware of this then Utah Salt Flats


----------



## soggy (Apr 28, 2003)

German Porsche tuners "9ff" & others use the Italian 12.6 km Nardo circular banked circuit for their high speed tests & records.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

SteveN said:


> The Autobanh Supra recently did 231.66 mph from a 1mile standing start, so maybe you dont need 5 miles anyhow.
> 
> Unless your using a M-way you got no chance in the UK of finding a place capable of more than about 1.5miles of acceleration, best bet is the VW test track in germany, thats got a long enough straight.
> 
> Though its probably wise to get to the point where the car is certain to manage it before contacting media or whatever trying to find a place to do it.



Good point Steve and taken on board.

I know the car will do 200 mph in just over the half mile now. Its the other 50 mph that i haven't tried as yet. We want to do this proper.

So no Fannying about with illegal shit. My name is Mick not Smokey.   
And that is no disrespect what so ever to the man.

All i want is to be safe as possible in doing this shit.

May be you should come along in the car with me Steve. Would make good footage better than the Fly in the Top secret Drag R ??? There is a seat available no probs.


Mick


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Im bang up for it mate, best ive done so far is 197 in the Fensport Corolla.

Considering its not a distance limited thing, I think providing you can find somewhere to do it (thats going to be the biggest headache i reckon), youve got a good chance, especially as it sounds like your thinking this through properly.

If your going as far as custom gearing that might actually make like a little easier if dont have to wildly rev the car to get the speed, so hopefully not blowing the bugger before the speed is reached.

Anyone know the aerodynamic properties of R33s? I know they look big and bulky, but they seem to cut through the air quite nicely.


----------



## gavman (Apr 12, 2006)

thread subscribed opcorn: 

best of luck Mick and the team

gav


----------



## pupsi (Aug 29, 2006)

Go for it and bust that 250mph.


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

definitely an aero and tyre challenge more than anything else. I say up the goal to 255mph, to where you're faster than a Veyron.


----------



## Bajie (Dec 13, 2001)

Mick , have you thought about asking Top Gear.
I know it sounds foolish, but, Clarkson did have the Lemon on the show in its earlier days.
They "may" be interested in seeing where you have taken the car and could possibly help with getting a venue.


----------



## RH18 (Feb 23, 2007)

Bajie said:


> Mick , have you thought about asking Top Gear.
> I know it sounds foolish, but, Clarkson did have the Lemon on the show in its earlier days.
> They "may" be interested in seeing where you have taken the car and could possibly help with getting a venue.


great idea.

good luck in seeking your goals.


----------



## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

SteveN said:


> best bet is the VW test track in germany, thats got a long enough straight.


That's exactly where I was thinking of. I think James May did the Veyron run there for Top Gear didn't he ?

Best of luck with it all Mick. I know you've got the drive and determination to give this a proper go so I look forward to seeing how you get on.

No doubt you'll keep me well updated :smokin: :squintdan


----------



## MacGTR (Dec 31, 2006)

Sounds like a great idea, how long do you think its going to take to get the car ready for this, Mick?


----------



## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

Well done Mick on looking to push the lemon to the next level and into the record books! :clap: 
I have no doubt you can do it mate, you worked hard enough to get the 9 in a full weight car.



SteveN said:


> Anyone know the aerodynamic properties of R33s? I know they look big and bulky, but they seem to cut through the air quite nicely.



The cd for an r33 is about 0.35 i think with the wing flat and about 0.39 with it at full angle. 

Aerodynamics are going to massively effect this effort but im sure it will teach us all alot about what we can do to minimise drag and lift at higher speeds, hopefully at the same time!  Although not at the same speeds as mick obv.

Mick will you be paneling the bottom of the car to smooth out the air flow? 

Any ideas on wing choice or lack of?

Cant wait to see the development and results from this.

GO ON MICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup:


----------



## Rick C (May 24, 2005)

m6beg said:


> After a lot of talking and thinking with Tweenirob. We were going to try and get in the top 5 of the 0 to 300 klm skyline records. which it would of done.
> We both have decided to go full out on a top speed record.
> Gonna change the diffs and turbos and aero work and go full out for 250 mph.
> 
> ...


Mick, there really is no stopping you! I can't help thinking the best place to do this is Bonneville itself. Soak up the atmosphere and the history, and then make a bit of history yourself! 

Of course it's a long way to go, but the weather's better there, and if you get someone like Top Gear involved, they might pay for the ferry trip...

all the best with the preperations.


----------



## kornmonkey (Jan 29, 2006)

Wow, that will be fast. I hope you succeed 
You wouldn't catch me trying that - and if you did, I'd be so nervous you wouldn't be able to get a needle up my ar$e with a 4lb hammer !!!


----------



## Hugo (Oct 1, 2007)

Big plans there Mick!!

Best of luck with it and keep us posted!!


----------



## Lamb (Sep 25, 2003)

Good luck Mick.......its a big challenge but im confident you, Rob and the PT team can crack it!........keep us all posted! :thumbsup: 

Harry


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Thanks for all the support and comments guys.

I am sending Top Gear an email today. And i will link this to the e mail.

I have no idea on dates etc. Just fingers crossed Jeremy wants to see the car again.

Mick


----------



## Hugo (Oct 1, 2007)

If you go for 253+ the Veyron will be beaten. Top Gear must host this party for you Mick on the same track in Germany where James did the Veyron item :smokin:


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

I doubt it's the sort of thing Top Gear will be interested in nowadays, and I wouldn't think Papenburg is easy to get access to.

Phil


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Pointless trying to beat the Veyron IMO, esp as its not even the fastest production car in the world anymore anyhow.
And even if/when you did people will still come out with the usual "what a waste, all that effort and it only just beat a standard car" etc.
Micks car already easily out-accelerates the Veyron up to big speeds anyhow.

Best thing is just go for a speed, a mental one, 250 is a nice number. Actual speeds get noticed more than "its faster than a" type things.

5th gear would be much more keen on it than Topgear too IMO.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Steve.

I will talk to you.

Mick


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

well, regarding tires, what does the Veyron use to keep from blowing up at top speed?

I'll be most interested in seeing what aero mods the Lemon will get to hit 250mph. Flat bottom?


----------



## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

kismetcapitan said:


> I'll be most interested in seeing what aero mods the Lemon will get to hit 250mph. Flat bottom?


Exactly what i was thinking, need to generate some ground effect with a flat underside and venturi tunnels or the like to keep the beast stable.


----------



## jae (Aug 28, 2002)

*Cometh the car, cometh the man*



m6beg said:


> So now the Super Lemon is going for its sister cars record.
> 
> Mick


There is something deeply right about this sort of statement of intent. Also I see a four page thread with no bitching. Which is as it should be.

The very best of luck, Mick. And the very best of technology to back it. I sincerely hope JUN return to see the legend they started increase it's glory.

:bowdown1:


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Good luck with whatever and wherever you decide to do it Mick.

If you want it on TG, strap a dead animal to the car, stick a rocket on the back and put a caravan or two to smash through at the end of the straight.


----------



## s2gtr (Jun 30, 2001)

What a challenge Mick:bowdown1: 

All the best with it:thumbsup: If I can help in any way you know here I am 

Dave


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Good one for trying this Mick :bowdown1: 

How much power do you think you need for 250?


----------



## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

id suggest something in the region of 1300-1400 ponies, unless there is a way to help the drag coeficient significantly in the 33  

going to watch this one with interest, you are a true nutter Mick, Well done!!!


----------



## ChristianR (May 31, 2005)

5mile road over here


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

I think itd need far less than 1300 "REAL" BHP considering there is no distance specified.

IF the drag co-efficient number was all that was worth taking in to account (its not, but thats all we have to work with here), and an R33GTR as standard is 0.35, thats not exactly bad seeing as Ferrari F40s, 360s and 430s, are all 0.34, ie almost the same.

Flat bottom floor, aerodynamic F+R spoilers, etc etc etc, and your well below 0.34


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Just a link from the past.

Bonneville Reports 1997

Mick


----------



## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

SteveN said:


> I think itd need far less than 1300 "REAL" BHP considering there is no distance specified.
> 
> IF the drag co-efficient number was all that was worth taking in to account (its not, but thats all we have to work with here), and an R33GTR as standard is 0.35, thats not exactly bad seeing as Ferrari F40s, 360s and 430s, are all 0.34, ie almost the same.
> 
> Flat bottom floor, aerodynamic F+R spoilers, etc etc etc, and your well below 0.34


Also the front surface(m^2) should be taken in account. The R33 is a rather big car, so lowering the car as much as possible would deffo help.


----------



## bkvj (Feb 13, 2006)

drag co-efficient of a veyron is .36 in top speed mode. so in theory, the hyper lemon RII should be able to crack this also soon.


----------



## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

i stand corrected  i didnt realise the 33 was that aerodynamic!! thats good to know


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Its not just drag, it's frontal area too.

Phil


----------



## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

m6beg said:


> I do not think there is anything else i can do to the car to be honest with you. It weighs more than a standard car. I cant compete in the high level anymore as she keeps on breaking drive train things. I think it is time to move her on to a diffrent thing's.
> 
> 
> Mick


I cant believe this Mick, was looking forward to staging up against you on the 1/4 mile.

Remember to change tyres and re fit the rear wing, seen as the top speed run at TOTB was quoted by yourself as " fu%king Scary [email protected]" :chuckle: 

I am behind you a 100% as always, what you have achieved with the Super Lemon over the last few years is awesome. Keeping such a iconic car in the headlines is no easy task and breaking your own records along the way is a massive reflection on how much passion you have for the GTR. 

You have revived a legend and taken it to a even higher level, top work that man.:bowdown1: :bowdown1: :bowdown1: :bowdown1: :bowdown1: 

p.s. should I book my ticket for the Euro Star now?  


Smokey :smokin:


----------



## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

Philip said:


> Its not just drag, it's frontal area too.
> 
> Phil



Yes, that's what I meant to say.


----------



## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I have looked into places in the UK with long enough straights. Elvington, Bruntingthorpe and that airfield where top speed challenge was held just aint long enough for really high speeds  It would almost definetely need to be Nardi bowl, Autobahn or that other test facility where that 1000bhp omega did over 200mph. Ideally Bugatti's test track or utah salt flats though.


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

IMHO Salt Flats is a bad idea, the place is always too soft and slippy, so always hard to run full power etc etc on mega power cars.
Thats what fricked the JUN HyperLemon and Supra salt flat runs in the past, wheelspin and digging in to the salt.

IMO a 3-5 mile road will be better, if you can find one.


----------



## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

M1 

Rob


----------



## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Where is the sister car now Mick?? At Jun ?


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

A lot of it will come down to gear and diff ratios, and aerodynamics. That's where most of the gains will come from. At least with a nice long straight you can run an absolutely mahoosive fcuking turbo(or turbos), and not have to worry about lag.

Good luck mate, I've loved that car ever since I first saw it.

ps: Are you going to put a proper cage in it? You mentioned something about wanting to attempt it safely, imo a cage is a must. And they look so sexy to boot. And what about tyres? You're gonna need some pretty special rubber I should imagine. The last thing you'd want at those speeds is tyre de-lamination, or a blow out.

Anyway, enough of my waffle, and good luck once again. :thumbsup:


----------



## Nick MW (Aug 15, 2003)

You are an absolute loon Mick - hats off you you mate and all the best with the development. Really look forward to seeing the output ....


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Turbo's are off and being sent to Turbo Dynamics. They were 32/40's now becoming 35/40's.

With the old turbos the car made 960 atw @ 2.4 bar. Using the same boost we will see a lot more.


Mick


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

m6beg said:


> Turbo's are off and being sent to Turbo Dynamics. They were 32/40's now becoming 35/40's.
> 
> With the old turbos the car made 960 atw @ 2.4 bar. Using the same boost we will see a lot more.
> 
> ...



:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 

If I gave you a tenner towards petrol, could I have a go in it? Passenger side of course.


----------



## rb26 (Aug 29, 2004)

m6beg said:


> Just a link from the past.
> 
> Bonneville Reports 1997
> 
> Mick


The best of luck with this quest for speed Mick:thumbsup: 
And many thanks for the link, i read all i can find about these cars and this was a nice flashback to a landmark in time:thumbsup: 

Thanks for sharing,

Terje.


----------



## wide_n_low (Sep 27, 2006)

good luck with this big project ! :thumbsup:


----------



## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

Good luck.. squeezing all the juice out of the lemon!!! 

250mph is VERY FAST. just out of interest, what is the fastest top speed that a GTR has gone? Anybody know?


----------



## MacGTR (Dec 31, 2006)

I think its the JUN Hyper Lemon but i don't know what speed it has reached.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

There you go mate. :smokin: :smokin: I don't know of any other GTR going any faster!


<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb295/junsuperlemon/JAPANTRIPJUN013.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>


Mick


----------



## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

238.4 mph, not sure if 250 mph in a R33 is possable Mick, maybe you should try using the Supra  



Smokey :smokin:


----------



## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

ok.. thought as much HyperLemon would be up there.

reason i was asking is because of all that talk about the Veilside R34 which was probably never substantiated.. i know it did something like 346km/h and then broke down on the run, but the car was RUMOURED to have done 391km/h.. i haven't ever seen anything official.


----------



## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

You will need about 911hp at the wheels for 250mph assuming normal R33 drag levels. And you'll need it at the RPM that equates to 250mph on your specific setup. However you'll really need more than 911hp otherwise you acceleration will be very low as you approach 250mph, and then you need a VERY long piece of tarmac.

The other problem you will have is your cooling, since youll be dissipating a lot of heat for a sustained period of time. Large oil cooling and water cooling rads, and/or managing the air through them.

I would be thinking of water injection, aero mods, gear/speed dependant boost, closed loop control based on EGT, oil and coolant temp monitoring and "other stuff". Weight isn't really an issue.

It's a good challenge, not an easy one, I wonder if Mick will have to put the 250mph key in and have Perfect Touch activate high boost via SMS!


----------



## pupsi (Aug 29, 2006)

Also keeping the thing on the ground. No doubt an air cushion will be produced between the tire and the ground. So a lot of downforce is required.


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

pupsi said:


> Also keeping the thing on the ground. No doubt an air cushion will be produced between the tire and the ground. So a lot of downforce is required.



I would have thought at 250 mph his ar$e will be going a fair bit, providing a lot of natural downforce, a sort of human ground effect. If that isn't enough I'll sit next to him, on the understanding that two ar$es will be better than one. :chuckle:

Incidentally, Jack Frost did 257 mph on his 700bhp Hayabusa. The bike never lifted off the ground and was quite stable. So I'm quite confident the car will crack 250 mph as well.


----------



## Wanabee Kiwi (Mar 31, 2007)

Is the JUN Hyper Lemon the same car as the JUN Super Lemon or are they two different chassis?

Anyway Mick good luck with the Goal, i have no doubt in my mind that its achievable!


----------



## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Wanabee Kiwi said:


> Is the JUN Hyper Lemon the same car as the JUN Super Lemon or are they two different chassis?
> 
> Anyway Mick good luck with the Goal, i have no doubt in my mind that its achievable!


The Super Lemon and Hyper Lemon are two different cars, Jun used the word Hyper for no road going car's, circuit etc and Super for Road legal cars. The two R33's share some of the same engine parts, the Super Lemon was used as a test bed and has a one off billet crank that was later developed for the Hyper Lemon to use iirc. Not to sure if the chassis development of the Hyper Lemon was a one off, seen as it had a completely different mission to achieve.

Smokey :smokin:


----------



## Thrust (Jun 8, 2004)

This will definitely be an interesting project to follow. Makes my mouth dry just thinking about it. Would Dubai be too hot, I wonder? Must be full of people with extra cash and a willingness to smooth your path for you... The best of luck, Mick.


----------



## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

Turbonutter said:


> If I gave you a tenner towards petrol, could I have a go in it? Passenger side of course.


You'd probably only get off the drive for a tenner LOL


----------



## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I dont want to be a downer on this, but look at any of the salt flat cars and see the airodynamic changes they make, even look at the Lemon that did that run, its really quite changed from the look of your Lemon. Will you be going full out for those kind of changes? Its an interesting challenge, but fduking hard mate. I looked into places you can do top speeds and really there are so few places to do it, you got any ideas where you will go? Can you get sponsorship to go to bonneville? I doubt Bugatti will let you use their 'runway'.

Heres the only image I can find of the Hyper Lemon RIII.

JUN DEMONSTRATION CARS - JUN HYPER LEMON R III


----------



## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

I would imagine the planning that is going into this car would include significant aerodynamics. Radiator and intercooler relocation. Custom one-off front bumper, flat underpanels. Closed off alloy wheels (a la R32 touring cars). 

As the article says on the JUN site. Providing Mick can find a long enough piece of track or salt flat, I would imagine the motor side of things would be more about being able to sustain a full boost run of many minutes rather than a quick sprint. That is a lot to ask of any turbos, crank, cooling and gearbox / diffs. 

I have faith in the PT crew.

Would be lovely if this materialised.


----------



## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Quick but related question........

Does NO2 have a cooling effect inside the motor when it is sprayed...


----------



## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

I would think it lowers combustion and inlet temps, could be spouting pure roobeesh though!


----------



## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

I am just thinking that a relatively mild 50 shot with a big tank will not only help those last few MPH but could cool quite nicely too....

can you tell I am off work today?


----------



## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

Yeah definatley, i think it would certainly help!

I still manage to get on here most of the time in work, i suppose you could call it being efficient at my job, rather than having nothing to do LOL


----------



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> Heres the only image I can find of the Hyper Lemon RIII.
> 
> JUN DEMONSTRATION CARS - JUN HYPER LEMON R III


Max Power did a full cover of the run in their magazine.
I remember reading it, wonder if they still have all the 'close-up' pics?


----------



## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Mick, listen to the voice of experience.

The task is not impossible, however its akin to climbing Everest without oxygen and wearing trainers.

Anthony and others have partially hit the nail on the head.

Firstly, the R33 requires at least 1000BHP at the wheels at the revs required to hit 250mph. It isn't just about power per se, it is about sustainable power. Using a quaife 6 speed box and "standard" diff ratios 250 is approximately 10,400RPM. Which also happens to be around the revs at which a high flow oil pump is capable of emptying a TRUST extended sump faster than the oil is draining back down the engine.......

On a 10Km straight (there is one in Germany, de-restricted), even then it is marginal because as pointed out you need torque to keep accelerating at a reasonable rate otherwise you run out of room. Think in terms of holding it at that sort of power level for at least 54seconds, and no, it won't do it on pump fuel.

You can of course change the diffs to get the peak rev requirement down, however that has acceleration implications and you are working within a finite distance. Ideally you should work out the torque/gear curves on the dyno to identify optimum gear ratios, shift points and time to peak against space available. 

You also need to make the suspension almost solid and lower the car such that the front splitter skims the tarmac (check out the front of NASCAR entrants). It is essential to stop as much air as possible getting under the front and leeching in at the wheels and by the skirts. Think about sealing off the sides with under skirt brushes, ideal would also involve enclosing the wheels however that makes the brakes overheat (not a real issue), does not help the tyre temps (an issue) and makes the wheel bearings run hot (potential fail point).

Lowering the car seriously helps the aeroD. Don't worry about weight, in this instance it is a trivial factor.

Next problem is venting the engine bay. You have huge volumes of air entering through the IC and Rad, because you need it. Problem is that the engine bay does a good parachute impression and again is forcing air underneath the car which at least helps cool the gearbox too. Unfortunately, it is an evil trade off because it is screwing your aeroD. Think about what Andy Barnes has done to his 33. You ideally should do the same, except he only runs for 8 secs, you need to run for near a minute...... The heat buildup under bonnet would be huge, so you really need a system that allows efficient engine bay flow through and out over the top of the car to aid downforce to help keep it in a straight line. That means some bonnet back end venting on a big scale.

You also need to work on the boot diffuser to assist rear exit airflow and minimise drag.

Then think about the tyres. Dunlop do some "high speed" tyres, basically you need something with a strong carcase as these stand the speed better. You also need to use a suitable gas to fill, the tyres will get very hot and filling with air is high risk, nitrogen is better.

The oil temps will also go high but good quality oil will stand it.

If you are prepared to consider it, the real solution is to run NOS, as applied at the right time that will give you the acceleration kick you will need when you really need it - assuming the engine will take it. We are talking 300shot not 50!

Having fixed all that, you then have to turn the car around and do it again in the other direction................. I think within 1 hour.

With respect to JUN's efforts. I think they did two runs within the time to get an average figure which everyone quotes. It was supposed to be RWD only, however I understand that when changing the diff (for a better ratio) they changed both rear and front, so work it out yourself. The car was also fitted with a chute for emergencies, and yes it was used as they had real problems keeping it in a straight line.

Other than that, its just a case of keeping it pointing in the right direction.

Good luck, you will need it, along with a skip load of money.

DaveG


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

For those that mentioned nitrous, and Mick of course.


Nitrous oxide systems make large amounts of torque by allowing an engine to burn more fuel at a lower rpm range than normal. Burning more fuel this way creates a longer burn period (and slightly higher cylinder pressures, if the timing is not corrected), that will push down on the pistons with greater average force. When the nitrous is injected into an engine and the initial combustion takes place, it creates enough heat to separate the nitrous oxide into its two components, nitrogen and oxygen. Once separated, the additional oxygen is then free to allow combustion of the additional fuel, while the released nitrogen acts as a buffer against detonation and damps mechanical loads. 

To run nitrous successfully and safely, you have to introduce precise amounts of additional fuel with precise amounts of nitrous oxide. All of the extra oxygen provided by the nitrous oxide must have fuel with which to burn or you may damage your engine severely. When the amount of nitrous and the amount of supplemental fuel is controlled precisely, your engine can safely and reliably generate exceptional power increases. 

Combustion 
Nitrous oxide does not burn, it is an oxidiser. It provides more oxygen, so more fuel can be burned, and the result is more power. The atoms in a nitrous oxide molecule are bonded together. The oxygen is not free, but fortunately the bond breaks down as temperature rises. At 565° F, the bond is broken and the oxygen is then free. Combustion temperatures are much more than 565°, so it's not a problem. By adding nitrous oxide to an engine, the total amount of oxygen is increased while the volume of nitrogen is decreased (as a percentage of the whole). This speeds the burn rate and requires less timing advance for peak output. It is hard for many people to grasp gaining power with less timing, but it's a fact. Peak cylinder pressure must occur at approximately 20°ATDC to make peak power. If you speed the burn rate, peak cylinder pressure will occur too soon. It is easy to run too much ignition advance with nitrous, but too much will not only hurt power, it can quickly bring a nitrous engine into detonation and destroy it. 

Detonation 
Large power increases achieved by using nitrous oxide can increase the chance of detonation. To keep the engine out of detonation, you must control the extra heat that nitrous can make. The easiest way to do this is to add more fuel. All nitrous systems come with rich jetting to give you a safe starting point. The extra fuel takes away heat and raises the detonation limit. If you don't try to over do it, and keep the hp levels within reason, running slightly richer should be all you'll need to control detonation. Running richer will reduce the power output, but raising the detonation limit will allow more nitrous to be used to get more power. 

Nitrous-to-fuel Ratios 
The chemically correct nitrous to petrol ratio is 9.649:1. If a nitrous engine runs lean, it can destroy the engine in a matter of seconds. There must be enough fuel to maintain this correct ratio, if there isn't, temperatures rise rapidly. The oxygen that was left over from burning the limited amount of fuel will result is a lean burn situation raising cylinder temperatures and melting components. So don't run lean. 

Cooling Effects 
Cooler intake air is denser and contains more oxygen atoms per cubic foot. So cooler air will allow more fuel to be burned and in turn, make more power. A 10 degree drop in temperature can add 1 to 1.5% power to an engine. Nitrous oxide boils at -129°F and it will begin to boil as soon as it is injected. This can cause an 80° or so drop in manifold air temperature. Now if we are dealing with say a 400 hp engine, we can see a gain of well over 30 hp from the cooling effect alone. This cooling effect also helps the engine deal with detonation. 

Average Power 
If you were to build a 350 hp 3.5 Rover V8, it would have to rev to 7000+ rpm to make that kind of power and only make power over a narrow rpm range. A nitrous injected 3.5 Rover V8 making 350 hp would make that power at a much lower rpm with a higher average horsepower. So the nitrous engine will out perform the normally aspirated engine by a healthy margin. The reason is that nitrous flow remains constant no matter what rpm the engine is running at. At lower speeds there is more time for the nitrous to fill the cylinders, so you get more nitrous in the cylinders per power stroke at lower rpm. This will boost torque and consequently power more at low rpm. As rpm increases, you will get less nitrous per power stroke, but the engine will start making more normally aspirated power. This really flattens out the torque curve and widens the power band. 

So Why Not Pure Oxygen? 
Air has only 23.6% oxygen by weight, the rest is made up largely of nitrogen. That nitrogen does not aid in combustion at all, but it does absorb and carry heat away. When you add nitrous, it has 36% oxygen with the rest being nitrogen. So the more nitrous oxide you add, the less percentage of nitrogen is available to absorb heat. That is why nitrous increases engine heat very rapidly. If we were to add pure oxygen (which has been tried), the percentage of nitrogen would fall even lower as more oxygen was added. We would not be able to add much oxygen before heat was a problem to control. Also compressed oxygen is in a gaseous form, so adding oxygen takes up more room and reduces normally aspirated power, and the amount of nitrogen from it. To put it simply, using nitrous oxide, we can get more oxygen atoms in the engine and have a lot more nitrogen as well. Nitrous can make much more power before heat is uncontrollable. 

A Nitrous Engine - Choosing a Camshaft 
Optimum cam timing for a nitrous motor will be different than optimum timing for that same motor off the bottle, so you will have to make a choice as to whether you want the most power with or without nitrous. Obviously if you are driving the car on the street most of the time, you will want the best power off the bottle. If you find that you can spare some power to make your car faster at the track, picking a camshaft to favour nitrous can make a substantial difference when nitrous is in use. Of course it is a trade off, but usually the power that you make on the bottle, will be far greater than the amount lost off the bottle. 

Pumping Losses 
Nitrous oxide adds oxygen, much of which is in liquid form. So you can see that a large intake valve and port is not required or desirable. Larger intake ports cause more of the nitrous to turn to a gas and reduce the amount of normally aspirated power, if the nitrous takes up more room, there will be less room for air, reducing volumetric efficiency. Also, you do not want or need long intake duration or a very high lift, so the intake side of the cam does not need to be any different when nitrous is used. The exhaust is a totally different story. All that extra oxygen and fuel makes for a substantial increase in exhaust gas volume. How can the exhaust valves deal with this? It can't, pumping losses go out of sight. Much of the extra power made in the cylinders never makes it to the flywheel, because it is used to push out the exhaust. Since making the exhaust valve large enough and the port flow enough is impractical with most cylinder heads, we must take other actions to cut pumping losses (which is actually just a band aid fix). 

Reducing Pumping Losses 
The first obvious step is to use a dual pattern cam with longer exhaust duration. Opening the valve earlier will help by getting the valve open more and bleeding off some pressure before the piston starts moving up the bore. This does eat into the power stroke, but more power is freed up than would be made by holding it closed longer (the best solution would be a larger valve and better port). The blow down phase (overlap period) becomes very important in a nitrous engine, because the gas has a much greater velocity and can over scavenge, closing the exhaust valve a little earlier helps. Anytime you make more power by reducing pumping losses, you are freeing up horsepower that already existed in the cylinders. The engine will still experience the same loads, but more power will be put to the flywheel and less will be used to push out exhaust. 

Camshaft Specs 
As said earlier, the intake needs to remain pretty much the same, but the exhaust needs more duration, an earlier opening point and an earlier closing point. To make this happen, you need to use a dual pattern cam with more exhaust timing, and a wider lobe separation angle. Cam's with 112-116° lobe separations are common is nitrous motors. To keep the intake timing the same, you must install the cam advanced, usually 6-8° advanced. The good thing about this is that advancing a cam will bring more low-end (at a trade off of top-end) when running without the nitrous and the wider lobe centre angle will also help idle and vacuum. Even the most radical nitrous profiles are usually pretty tame on the street. Ultra high lift cams are not need to make power with nitrous. On the exhaust side, the low lift flow is the most important thing, and must be dealt with much more seriously than high lift flow. 

Intake Port Work 
Nitrous adds so much oxygen that getting oxygen in is no longer a problem. A large intake port is not needed or desired. The larger the port, the more surface area it has and the intake charge will have lower velocity. Slower moving nitrous has more time to turn from a liquid to a gas, so a large port will have less liquid nitrous getting in the cylinder. As nitrous turns to a gas it will expand, taking up room in the intake and reducing the amount of normally aspirated air. More surface area will give the nitrous more area to absorb heat, which will cause even more nitrous to turn into gas. The same goes for large intake valves. The intake valve is the hottest part of the intake system and when nitrous is involved you don't want excess surface area on the valve. The exhaust is a different story. 

Exhaust Port Work 
All the extra exhaust has to be dealt with. The exhaust valves of a nitrous engine are almost always too small. When possible it is best to reduce the size of the intake to allow room for a bigger exhaust valve. The head of the exhaust valve should not have any sharp edges. It should have a nice smooth radius to allow the exhaust to travel around it as easily as possible. The valve job on the exhaust is the most important part. There will be much more cylinder pressure when the exhaust valve opens which means there will be more burnt gasses trying to escape through the valve at low lifts. Low lift exhaust flow should be your number one concern (up to about .300" lift). A good multi angle valve job is the best bang for the buck in a nitrous engine. The short side radius will usually benefit from a straight cut to the port floor. The area directly past the seat should be as wide as possible. The valve seats should be slightly wider also (.010"-.015") to help get rid of some of the extra heat in the valves. 

Combustion Chamber modifications 
Usually you cannot do much chamber work without reducing compression and being forced to use a high dome that hurts power. With nitrous, a high compression ratio is not needed, so some work can be done in this area. Nitrous can make very respectable power with compression ratio up to 10:1. First step is to angle the exhaust valve as much as possible so the gasses can move around the valve easily. The next step is to polish the combustion chamber and remove any sharp edges. Sharp edges will be the first to get hot and cause detonation (as well as be the first to melt). Polishing the combustion chamber will help keep carbon build up to a minimum (a good idea for any engine).


----------



## Irish GTR (Apr 23, 2007)

Thats one hell of a post Turbonutter.You,re fingers must be falling off at this stage.


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

Irish GTR said:


> Thats one hell of a post Turbonutter.You,re fingers must be falling off at this stage.


LOL, he says typing with his nose.

Yeah it did go on a bit.

I meant to add this too; 

Never defeat the operation of the safety relief disc in the nitrous cylinder's valve stem, it's there for your safety.

Never overfill nitrous cylinders, that little bit extra will put you and others at risk of injury. When the cylinder warms up, the pressure can climb above the limit of the safety relief disc and you will lose all the nitrous you just paid for.


----------



## Grex (Jan 2, 2005)

Turbonutter said:


> snip


Brilliant copy and paste  :chuckle: 

What Is Nitrous Oxide?


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

Grex said:


> Brilliant copy and paste  :chuckle:
> 
> What Is Nitrous Oxide?


No it didn't come from there, it came from Thor Racing, but after looking at the link you posted it's the same. Both sites stole it from WoN anyway. I never implied I wrote it though.


----------



## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

ATCO said:


> Mick, listen to the voice of experience.
> 
> The task is not impossible, however its akin to climbing Everest without oxygen and wearing trainers.
> 
> ...


911hp (ish) to sustain 250, so yes, 1000bhp ought to actually get you there properly



ATCO said:


> You also need to make the suspension almost solid


 Certainly not, firm, but not solid, or you'll be skating around even with downforce.



ATCO said:


> and lower the car such that the front splitter skims the tarmac (check out the front of NASCAR entrants).


No. That is just one method, really an alternative to a flat underside.



ATCO said:


> It is essential to stop as much air as possible getting under the front and leeching in at the wheels and by the skirts.


 Generally you have a problem getting enough air out of the wheel arches, not preventing it from going in. Venting the arch will increase downforce, but will often increase drag depending on the vent location.



ATCO said:


> Think about sealing off the sides with under skirt brushes, ideal would also involve enclosing the wheels however that makes the brakes overheat (not a real issue), does not help the tyre temps (an issue) and makes the wheel bearings run hot (potential fail point).


If you're running the front on the floor, the brushes will not be required as you will have almost no flow under the car. If you decide to run with a flat floor, which requires underbody airflow to make it work, then brushes might be a good idea. The problem you will encounter with brushes or any sort of skirt, is that you can suddenly lose a lot of downforce if you bring the skirt off the ground, which goes back to not wanting solid suspension, as you want to absorb bumps without being thrown about.

Ultimately the lower drag solution is likely to be a flat floor with about 50-75mm of clearance, controlled tightly enough to prevent the clearance from dissapearing, (which causes underbody stall and loss of downforce). Which is where your firm suspension comes in.




ATCO said:


> Lowering the car seriously helps the aeroD.


 Well sort of. With a conventional underbody, minimum drag is actually at about 180mm (well, high anyway), with a flat floor it's totally different so you need to decide what you're doing.





ATCO said:


> Next problem is venting the engine bay. You have huge volumes of air entering through the IC and Rad, because you need it. Problem is that the engine bay does a good parachute impression and again is forcing air underneath the car which at least helps cool the gearbox too. Unfortunately, it is an evil trade off because it is screwing your aeroD. Think about what Andy Barnes has done to his 33. You ideally should do the same, except he only runs for 8 secs, you need to run for near a minute...... The heat buildup under bonnet would be huge, so you really need a system that allows efficient engine bay flow through and out over the top of the car to aid downforce to help keep it in a straight line. That means some bonnet back end venting on a big scale.


Biggest challenge of all, flat floor means it's harder to vent the enginebay too.



ATCO said:


> You also need to work on the boot diffuser to assist rear exit airflow and minimise drag.


This is probably the best route with the flat floor. Done properly you'll not need a rear wing, or at least a very subtle one to trim the balance of the car. And that will be better for drag.



ATCO said:


> Then think about the tyres. Dunlop do some "high speed" tyres, basically you need something with a strong carcase as these stand the speed better. You also need to use a suitable gas to fill, the tyres will get very hot and filling with air is high risk, nitrogen is better.


Kwikfit?



ATCO said:


> If you are prepared to consider it, the real solution is to run NOS, as applied at the right time that will give you the acceleration kick you will need when you really need it - assuming the engine will take it. We are talking 300shot not 50!


NAAAAAAAWWWWZZZZ!
Speak to mad rod, a nitrogen push system will be the way forward, as long shots of N20 from a conventional bottle will drop the bottle temp and pressure, and therefore richen the AFR.



ATCO said:


> Having fixed all that, you then have to turn the car around and do it again in the other direction................. I think within 1 hour.
> 
> 
> With respect to JUN's efforts. I think they did two runs within the time to get an average figure which everyone quotes. It was supposed to be RWD only, however I understand that when changing the diff (for a better ratio) they changed both rear and front, so work it out yourself. The car was also fitted with a chute for emergencies, and yes it was used as they had real problems keeping it in a straight line.
> ...


Big skip!


----------



## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

35 yarder.


----------



## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

A fantastic project and fresh challenge for the Lemon! Excellent :clap: 

250 mph is scary fast!! I did an indicated 348 km/h (216 mph) in Hippo GT-R on the Wangan for our 2nd DVD a few years ago. 3am and overtaking the odd trucks on the roads 250 km/h faster than they were going turned out to be no fun at all - Just flippin' scary. Mild corners that you'd usually not even notice made the car feel like it was cornering pretty hard. Fair to say, Gio's GT-R felt solid at that speed even so... but I've never wanted to repeat driving anywhere near that fast again!

If anyone has the enthusiasm and ability to do it, it's you Mick! Look forward to watching how this one unfolds.  :thumbsup:


----------



## Adey (May 14, 2007)

ATCO said:


> Mick, listen to the voice of experience.
> 
> The task is not impossible, however its akin to climbing Everest without oxygen and wearing trainers.
> 
> ...


I couldnt agree more, you have mentioned many valid points in your post.

If done correctly it can be done, but its not a case of strapping a 1200bhp engine and bang you hit 250mph!!

If Mick does 250 I will eat my sock!! :chuckle: Personally I dont think he can do it...


----------



## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Turbonutter said:


> No it didn't come from there, it came from Thor Racing, but after looking at the link you posted it's the same. Both sites stole it from WoN anyway. I never implied I wrote it though.


did seem like that to me...

BTW you can use a pressure valve rather than a blow off disc so you can keep pressure constant throughout a run, also see "nitrogen boost" in your next copy paste mission..


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

T.F.S. said:


> did seem like that to me...
> 
> BTW you can use a pressure valve rather than a blow off disc so you can keep pressure constant throughout a run, also see "nitrogen boost" in your next copy paste mission..



Maybe you need to re-read it then, because at no point did I claim to have written it. If you manage to spot where I claim to be the original author then I'll eat my hat.


----------



## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

the original author is trevor langfield and i like to see that posted as much as possible because its very accurate infomation

i dont however like people to give the impression that they wrote it.., i was not the only person that got that impression from your post




best of luck to mick with this project


----------



## Turbonutter (Nov 11, 2007)

T.F.S. said:


> i dont however like people to give the impression that they wrote it.., i was not the only person that got that impression from your post


Then maybe you and whoever else need to stop misinterpreting posts and reading stuff that isn't there.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Adey said:


> I couldnt agree more, you have mentioned many valid points in your post.
> 
> If done correctly it can be done, but its not a case of strapping a 1200bhp engine and bang you hit 250mph!!
> 
> If Mick does 250 I will eat my sock!! :chuckle: Personally I dont think he can do it...


Personally I don't give a flying fooook what you think Yunis.

I know you don't like the Lemon so enough is enough. Just please don't post again on this thread. As i can't be bothered to waist my time typing again!
Thank you.



Newera said:


> A fantastic project and fresh challenge for the Lemon! Excellent :clap:
> 
> 250 mph is scary fast!! I did an indicated 348 km/h (216 mph) in Hippo GT-R on the Wangan for our 2nd DVD a few years ago. 3am and overtaking the odd trucks on the roads 250 km/h faster than they were going turned out to be no fun at all - Just flippin' scary. Mild corners that you'd usually not even notice made the car feel like it was cornering pretty hard. Fair to say, Gio's GT-R felt solid at that speed even so... but I've never wanted to repeat driving anywhere near that fast again!
> 
> If anyone has the enthusiasm and ability to do it, it's you Mick! Look forward to watching how this one unfolds.  :thumbsup:


Thank you for your comments Miguel.

The Turbo's are coming off the car on Friday and we are taking them to Turbo Dynamics. The power in the car won't be a problem as i have Tweenirob and Perfect Touch on my side. As i have stated in a few other threads the car made 960 atw with the old Turbos.

The aerodynamics in the car will be a major fact in achieving this record which we well know. We are talking to company's about it.

Another matter is the cooling on the engine. So the 250 mph has got to be achieved as fast as possible without issues else game over!

And the biggest issue is my ring when i see 250 mph good foooking god am i crazy 

I think Tweenirob should come in the car with me to do this shit, As he is the man who has transformed the Jun Super Lemon RII into what it is today. The man is a legend. I just wished i met him 2 years ago.

So this is a bit of an update to were we are now. As i hope you all understand things like this cannot be rushed.

But it is deffo game on:thumbsup: :thumbsup: 

Mick


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Lots of good points above.

I think the flat floor has merit, however the gearbox and rear diff require lots of cooling too. Flat floors will starve the gearbox and diff of the cooling they require.

Fit oil coolers I hear you say - where can you fit them to work properly and not stuff up the diffuser?

Great read so far!


----------



## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

> I think Tweenirob should come in the car with me to do this shit, As he is the man who has transformed the Jun Super Lemon RII into what it is today. The man is a legend. I just wished i met him 2 years ago.


Datalogging is my friend 

Rob


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

perhaps fit the transmission and diff coolers out of the way, then use fans to force air through them? Uses up electrical power, but this is a single run.

I'd also have had this crazy idea of applying active ground effects as used in the Brabham Formula 1 car about 30 years ago (before it was quickly banned), where the radiator fan also served to suck the air out from under the car to create downforce. Impractical for a road car, but if the Lemon is lowered enough and rubber skirts placed all around....and the fan could be used for extra coolers.

A similar rationale was used in trunk mounting the radiator in the JGTC R34 car - the fan was, by the rules, for cooling, but the way it was situated created a vacuum and some downforce on the rear wheels.

You'd have to start cutting up your boot though....but perhaps not too much, the Brabham fan was outboard, and although it'd look pants, a fan right on your bumper and the right air channels to feed it could work wonders, and solve cooling problems by mounting the appropriate radiators in the boot.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

kismetcapitan said:


> perhaps fit the transmission and diff coolers out of the way, then use fans to force air through them? Uses up electrical power, but this is a single run.
> 
> I'd also have had this crazy idea of applying active ground effects as used in the Brabham Formula 1 car about 30 years ago (before it was quickly banned), where the radiator fan also served to suck the air out from under the car to create downforce. Impractical for a road car, but if the Lemon is lowered enough and rubber skirts placed all around....and the fan could be used for extra coolers.
> 
> ...



No boot will be cut in the Jun Super Lemon.


Mick


----------



## GTR R34 (Oct 2, 2002)

soggy said:


> German Porsche tuners "9ff" & others use the Italian 12.6 km Nardo circular banked circuit for their high speed tests & records.


The vw test is better nardo has to many curves this will cause friction and that means lower speeds.
Anyway good luck whit it.
:smokin: :bowdown1:


----------



## DaleHarrison (Nov 16, 2005)

Just want to stick my ore in and say good luck to all involved, with my level of knowledge I couldn't fathom how hard this must be to achieve. Stuff like this keeps a lot of us interested in modified cars


----------



## MeLLoN Stu (Jun 9, 2005)

you've as much chance of getting on the VW test track at Ehra-Lessien as you have a nasa mission to jupiter. 
Nardo is one big circle with a lap consisting of just under 8 miles, where most of the top brass have tested their top speeds at some point, including koenigsegg. It's a pretty steep bank, think nascar but stretched out and you're on the right lines. I think the quoted figure for the 'segg was 10km/h loss at top speed in tyre scrub etc. 
No idea what it'd cost to get use of nardo or if indeed you could. 

I think cost is going to be majorly prohibitive in a lot of venues. Cant think of anywhere in the UK it'd be possible, think the longest airfield outside of heathrow is 3km, so fat chance of doing it there. 

Tyre wise I seem to remember conti Vmax's being mentioned as the only road legal tyre rated to 225mph ?


----------



## GeorgeGTR (Feb 16, 2006)

M1 ??


----------



## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

ducts on the roof/rear window line ducting air to diff/coolers


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I still fancy the Brabham fan idea. It could be bumper mounted - get another R33 rear bumper cover. Attach fan and radiators under the raw bumper, even to and lower than the top of the bumper, and integrated with the bottom panel (you are going to make the bottom of the car dead flat, right?). Cut the rear bumper cover to fit, and there you have your extra downforce and cooling solution all in one.

Problem is mate, you need to know how much downforce you're generating - too much and it'll slow you down, and I recall that Bugatti had trouble finding a wind tunnel to test their Veyron.

And for the cost of renting a track to do 250mph, you'd be better off shipping the car to Utah and running on the salt flats.


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

what about watercooling the diffs and transmission? just hook the send and return lines to a water heat exchanger, rather than air to air radiators. Since the total run won't be that long in terms of time (a few minutes) you could just load the heat exchanger with ice.

You could ditch the rear outboard fan in that case or....run four small fans in a row integrated with the rear diffuser. They'd have to be powerful fans, of course (IIRC the Brabham fan was connected to the crankshaft), but the upside is that you could precisely tune the amount of total downforce by varying fan speeds (you'd need the rubber skirts all around too).


----------



## moNoKnoT (Dec 18, 2004)

Wow that would be quite an achievement, your a nutcase :chuckle: 

- Kevin.


----------



## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Been reading this, sounds like a great plan and best of luck to you.
Personally I'd be concentrating on getting to 250mph as quick as possible.
If its possible to get a GTR to 200mph in aprox 7.5 seonds, and plenty of drag cars get to 250mph in well under 7 seconds and in just 400 meters is seems logical to stick with drag based ideas and adjust them to suit the conditions you run in.

Best of luck 

Rob


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Been reading this, sounds like a great plan and best of luck to you.
> Personally I'd be concentrating on getting to 250mph as quick as possible.
> If its possible to get a GTR to 200mph in aprox 7.5 seonds, and plenty of drag cars get to 250mph in well under 7 seconds and in just 400 meters is seems logical to stick with drag based ideas and adjust them to suit the conditions you run in.
> 
> ...


And that my Friend is exactly what we intend to do.:thumbsup: 

Mick


----------



## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

I agree that not reinventing the wheel is a good thing.

Mick, you're not clear on whether you want to just hit 250mph, or sustain it for a measured mile or km in two directions. Hitting 250mph will be a battle in itself given the weight of the car.

I don't think I would want to do anything to the car that wasn't easily reversable, nor anything that was too different from what the car is meant to represent.

A flat floot can be easily sorted in full or just partially, just a good diffuser would help reduce the drag.

Oil temps should be okay given the quantity of oil, coolant temps may not be though, simple stuff like raising the bonnet, or getting a different (temporary) bonnet with some additional vents.

Engine will be a big step for sure, a drag engine that lasts for more than just a few drag races!


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Well Mr Pavlo.

I just want to hit the 250. And regards the engine it has been built to an A1 standard with no compromises. Built by Perfect Touch. I just want to get to the 250mph as fast as i can. 

I am 110% confident in achieving this goal.

Mick


----------



## stevenh (Oct 18, 2004)

good luck to you mick 

set your goals and go for them


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Collect the new turbos from Turbo Dynamics Ltd on friday.

They have made them 35/42's 1500 bhp worth of turbos.

Good shit. I see they listen to tweenirob lol :bowdown1: :bowdown1: :bowdown1: 

as the master would say DIRT :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: 


Mick


----------



## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Just read a story in the back of top gear mag about a Mercedes speed record on a closed section of German Autobahn of 268mph 

- this was in 1938

don't get me wrong, thats not to say 250mph won't be a fantastic achievement today in a road car.

It just suprised me how fast they were going 70 years ago on a two lane road that we could still drive on today, with the technology of the time.


----------



## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Pavlo said:


> I Hitting 250mph will be a battle in itself given the weight of the car.


Weight has little to do with it.... it's the aerodynamic drag increasing massively with speed...


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

what weight engine oil for the run?


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

kismetcapitan said:


> what weight engine oil for the run?


I can't tell you that i have never weighed the oil. Or never will.
Bit of a silly question.


Mick


----------



## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

m6beg said:


> I can't tell you that i have never weighed the oil. Or never will.
> Bit of a silly question.
> 
> 
> Mick


:bowdown1: :bowdown1: :bowdown1: THAT is funny shit Mick, well done, :chuckle:


----------



## trackday addict (May 14, 2005)

Friggin nutter :chuckle: :smokin: 




m6beg said:


> Collect the new turbos from Turbo Dynamics Ltd on friday.
> 
> They have made them 35/42's 1500 bhp worth of turbos.
> 
> ...


----------



## LSky (Feb 11, 2005)

m6beg said:


> I can't tell you that i have never weighed the oil. Or never will.
> Bit of a silly question.
> 
> 
> Mick


I think kismet means viscosity as in .. 10/50 15/40, Etc :chuckle:


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

LSky said:


> I think kismet means viscosity as in .. 10/50 15/40, Etc :chuckle:


Ahh right OK :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: lol


Mick


----------



## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

LSky said:


> I think kismet means viscosity as in .. 10/50 15/40, Etc :chuckle:


No shyte, either Mick missed that point or he's a fooken comedian  

Either way its funny as **** :chuckle:


----------



## jamesbilluk (Aug 10, 2006)

Awsome project this Mick  The best of luck for it. Will look forward to seeing how the mighty Lemon gets on.

James.


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

So you've got to keep the thing on the ground, make about 1200bhp at the crank, do it within a reasonable distance, and have your motor capable of spinning 11,000rpm for sustained periods of time.

How are you going to swing that last bit?


----------



## Hugo (Oct 1, 2007)

Or less then 11k rpm with other gear ratio's.


----------



## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

It'll have to be a trade off, the taller the gearing the slower its going to accellerate but I'm sure they'll do it, best of luck with it Mick.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

No doubt it will be a slower acceleration but faster than the others.
Head is coming off to do some mods next week because the turbos are that big. The turbos flow 750 horse each. We are estimating the car will be around 1150 atw. I want to thank Turbo Dynamics in developing the new turbos for me they are dirty:bowdown1: 

Lots to do as yet but things are getting checked off the list.

The Lemon will be at the Autosports show in Jan at the NEC in the Jap Performance mag stand which i think will be the next step. I have had a big name company really exited to take part in what we are trying to achieve which I am well pleased with.

I will try and keep everything updated if i can as work is stupidly busy. Me and my brother have done the deal with a major frame contractor to build the new Olympic village in Stratford London. Which comprises with the first stage of 12 number lift cores all going to 34 storeys. Which is the biggest contract we have ever done so most of my time will be involved in that. But will never leave the Lemon in the garage as to speak.


Mick


----------



## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Good to see things moving along nicely mate....some exciting new things ahead for you.

Also, congratulations on getting that big job....that should keep you busy !!


----------



## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Hi Mick. How are things progressing with the top speed Lemon. Any updates for us?


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

GTRSTILL said:


> Hi Mick. How are things progressing with the top speed Lemon. Any updates for us?


No mate been to busy for cars.
We are building the olympic village you know. We are working on site 24hrs a day. I know nothing will be done with the car for at least 4 months. As i have 14 cores to put up on a slide.

Mick


----------



## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Sh1t, thats superb. Bit of nice Lemon fund contract 

Is the Olympic village where the athletes will all stay?


----------



## MacGTR (Dec 31, 2006)

Yes, there is about 3000-4000 homes to be built there I think, looks like a massive project and I hope you get it done by 2012 :chuckle: .


----------



## bazooqa (Jan 22, 2006)

> 383.715 kilometer/hour = 238.429 447 029 mile/hour (mph)


What!
I ‘am still fighting to reach 200mph nothing more.
so they’ve beaten there previous no. with there Blitz Z32


----------



## ChristianR (May 31, 2005)

any updates on this? not seen or heard about the lemon for ages...


----------

