# TRL Dyno Day - SVM



## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi Guys,

We arrived at TRL in Halifax this morning with 3 of ours R35s which will be going on the dyno soon. Will be updating you will the results as and when. 

Cheers,


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Cool and call/email me as soon as you can re Wednesday. :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Ok we had rammi's car on the dyno, 812hp and 800lbft of torque.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Just had Steve from the south's on the dyno, 755hp, 755lbft, noticeable restriction with the ITG's against Rammi's with the K&N's.


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

steve's will easily hit same power as rami as spec so similar, but last nite logging just didn't have enough time to dial in more boost, steve is running around 10% less wgdc :flame:


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Excellent & well done. Was a real treat to see these SVM beasts in the flesh. ****ing awesome motors.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Had F-MANs car on the dyno, we had to switch the rollers to 2wd and put three people in the boot due to roller slip. It made 699 at the wheels which equates to just over 900 at the flywheel. Big thanks to everyone for today and thanks to the guys at TRL, will have pictures and video up soon.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

SVM said:


> Had F-MANs car on the dyno, we had to switch the rollers to 2wd and put three people in the boot due to roller slip. It made 699 at the wheels which equates to just over 900 at the flywheel. Big thanks to everyone for today and thanks to the guys at TRL, will have pictures and video up soon.


Now that is effing awesome! LOL at 3 people in the boot, didn't know it was big enough!


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

SVM said:


> Had F-MANs car on the dyno, we had to switch the rollers to 2wd and put three people in the boot due to roller slip. It made 699 at the wheels which equates to just over 900 at the flywheel. Big thanks to everyone for today and thanks to the guys at TRL, will have pictures and video up soon.


Sh1t a brick, that's insane. Well done & safe trip home

Am somewhat humbled with my 595.2 (flywheel), but extremely happy. All 4 SVM cars where a treat to see


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## marcyt21 (Mar 16, 2006)

Ben, steves 755hp was at the wheels Im assuming?


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

marcyt21 said:


> Ben, steves 755hp was at the wheels Im assuming?


worried about steve's 35 at spa now ? ehehe


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## GTRSTAR (Nov 26, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> Now that is effing awesome! LOL at 3 people in the boot, didn't know it was big enough!


If you quarter the bodies and bunch all the pieces together they fit nicely


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

Fabulous to meet everyone and KK cars are truly stunning pieces of work. Can't say I am convinced about the green though sorry ;-(

Really good meet and the usual amazingly friendly and knowledgeable bunch. Arcam made me a bit happier as looks like rattling is rear brakes floating.

Mine ran 521 at Fly and 401 at Wheels with Titan and stock tune. Spiking apparently so bloody Ben might get more of my pension fund - Cobb is something I just didn't want to do but.......?! Titan lovely and sounds as fab as ever so thanks mate!

Looking forward to the next one - summer BBQ anyone?


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## marcyt21 (Mar 16, 2006)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> worried about steve's 35 at spa now ? ehehe


Not in the corners or on the brakes! Think it'll be even, I'm getting it all on video mate


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Great results guys....all big numbers 

Paul - What boost are you running for your 595?


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Stevie76 said:


> Great results guys....all big numbers
> 
> Paul - What boost are you running for your 595?


18psi falling to 15 at 7k


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> 18psi falling to 15 at 7k


Mmmm....might need the same for mine although I don't have the Titan when my AP comes back from Texas....can feel the credit card taking a beating:nervous:


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> 18psi falling to 15 at 7k


What he said:thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

i'm pleased F-man's GT-R hit 900hp, i knew she had it in her after hitting 860hp on our dyno without the mega Marston intercooler which completely changed the boost levels.

Now it will be interesting for a certain magazine david works for to road test in wales against some mega money uber cars :flame:


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## Jaw_F430 (Apr 14, 2009)

It was good to meet some new people today and the SVM cars all looked well:clap:


My totally stock GTR made . . . . .507.6bhp very pleased with that AFR's were mid to high 10's and the boost was ~0.7 bar


Had a nice drive back with Eddie . . . . . that road was reallllllyyyy bumpy:nervous:


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Nice pics...:clap:

Did the Hulk make it on to the dyno today??


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## Jaw_F430 (Apr 14, 2009)

Stevie76 said:


> Nice pics...:clap:
> 
> Did the Hulk make it on to the dyno today??


No it didn't run today, don't think its finshed . . . .would of broke the dyno though with that much power :runaway::clap:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

well done good results..

never knew your car was running KK


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

The First few cars dinoed, was that power at the wheels of flywheel? 

Also the car that made 700 @ the wheels? How does that work out to be 900 @ the flywheel? Should that not be -800 @ the flywheel? 

Also confused that it was ran on a 2wd dino? what was wrong with running it in 4wd, what make dino was used?


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## AndyBrew (Feb 2, 2011)

would the car not simply put all the power to the rear wheels anyway?


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

AndyBrew said:


> would the car not simply put all the power to the rear wheels anyway?


Not sure on the R35, but on the 32/33/34 it sends it to all 4 wheels on the dino. I would guess it does on the R35 as the car would think the rear wheels are spinning and would send power to the front wheels.


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## Jaw_F430 (Apr 14, 2009)

mattysupra said:


> The First few cars dinoed, was that power at the wheels of flywheel?
> 
> Also the car that made 700 @ the wheels? How does that work out to be 900 @ the flywheel? Should that not be -800 @ the flywheel?
> 
> Also confused that it was ran on a 2wd dino? what was wrong with running it in 4wd, what make dino was used?


Dyno was a 4WD dyno dynamics


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

mattysupra said:


> Not sure on the R35, but on the 32/33/34 it sends it to all 4 wheels on the dino. I would guess it does on the R35 as the car would think the rear wheels are spinning and would send power to the front wheels.


Need 4wd dyno... YouTube - GT-R on the dyno at SP Engineering


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

Confused with KK's coment -



> we had to switch the rollers to 2wd and put three people in the boot due to roller slip


Whats he mean ?


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## AndyBrew (Feb 2, 2011)

mattysupra said:


> Not sure on the R35, but on the 32/33/34 it sends it to all 4 wheels on the dino. I would guess it does on the R35 as the car would think the rear wheels are spinning and would send power to the front wheels.


this is a good point, i hadn't thought of this how exactly does the car know when the wheels have lost traction??

Does it look at speed in relation to wheel rotation, if it did I guess it would simply think yep we are ripping along keep the power to the rear??

surely the r34 would be along the same lines though??


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

AndyBrew said:


> this is a good point, i hadn't thought of this how exactly does the car know when the wheels have lost traction??
> 
> Does it look at speed in relation to wheel rotation, if it did I guess it would simply think yep we are ripping along keep the power to the rear??
> 
> surely the r34 would be along the same lines though??


Ye, it monitors the wheel speed front to rear along with g force i think 

There is a great video somewhere that shows just how fast the system react's. However it is a video of a 33 gtr, old school tech so i would guess the R35 reacts even quicker. The R34 has a improved system over the R33 so i can only guess the R35 is better still. 

I will go find the video.


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

Here you go- 

The video is in slow motion. You will see the front and rear wheels both move at the same time as they are obviously incontact with the road. 

But then you see the rears spin up and within maybe 0.2 of a second you watch the front wheels acclerate and spin up to the same speed as the rears. 

All 4 wheels now spinning. O and keep watching the front of the car! It almost shakes itself to death! :nervous:

O and i hope cliff dont mind me using his video? 

YouTube - Nissan Skyline R33 GTR - Santa pod 1/4 mile - drag run in slow-mo


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## AndyBrew (Feb 2, 2011)

that is such a cool video once you have thought about what we have just discussed LOL!

there's a guy on pistonheads called john banks who would have the answers to this???


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

*Hope this helps*



mattysupra said:


> The First few cars dinoed, was that power at the wheels of flywheel?
> 
> Also the car that made 700 @ the wheels? How does that work out to be 900 @ the flywheel? Should that not be -800 @ the flywheel?
> 
> Also confused that it was ran on a 2wd dino? what was wrong with running it in 4wd, what make dino was used?


On the day we saw that there were variances on transmission loss on the Dyno of between 26-32%.

Our own cars had a transmission loss of between 26 to 29 %. The great thing is when F-MAN's car made 700WHP we still feel there was more to give which was being affected by wheel spin.

We are shortly uploading Video's and Pictures of Dyno Run's.

To answer your question about Dyno in 2WD mode, this was required as in 4WD mode there was actually more wheel slip. 

We would like to thank Matt @ TRL who persisted to get a good run on the Dyno, as you all are aware this is a 9.67 sec car so the figures do make sence. We all know that there are variables between Dyno days but this car's QTR mile time and Dyno read actually gives us a good idea that the figures tally.

Thanks KK


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

im still abit confused KK. 

How did you run a R35 in RWD? Did you remove the front propshaft or something? And how on earth did you have more grip sending the power to the rear wheels only? You have removed 50% of its grip? 

This is why i like hub dino's, no chance of wheel spin. 

Also, may i ask how you worked out a 26-29% loss through tranmission? I take it you have run a engine up on a engine dino and then fitted to a car and run on the rollers? 

Please dont think im trying to pick faults with the dino figures as clearly a 9 second car is making alot of power, to be honest i would say alot more than the Wheel BHP that has been quoted, just the flywheel to wheel BHP figures dont make sence to me. 

Also, the R35 that ran a 9, what 60 foot and terminal speed did that run?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

mattysupra said:


> im still abit confused KK.
> 
> How did you run a R35 in RWD? Did you remove the front propshaft or something? And how on earth did you have more grip sending the power to the rear wheels only? You have removed 50% of its grip?
> 
> ...


hi guys...11pm sorry for delay just got in!!

taking your questions 1 by 1

the rollers where put i 2wd shoot out! not the r35
this is because the r35 kept spinning on the rollers.. (all 4 wheels)
and over heating the centre viscous on the gtr at this power not seen before !

the operater tried a 2wd mode and it worked..699wheel hp
4wd gts give a 30% transmission loss looking at all other results (on the day) giving us a 910bhp fly wheel figure!
this does back up a 1/4 mile result of 9.67 sec @145mph
we think the real time bhp being closer to 950bhp whp looking at american 
drag time results 


we did end up by putting 3 guys in the boot lol 
as the car ran 100% on the road we are looking into the reasons for the 4wd coulplng to over heat
we are sur the 2wd shootout mode isnt the best results

kk


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## Rami (Oct 4, 2009)

Those are mighty nice numbers KK


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Rami said:


> Those are mighty nice numbers KK


your car will easy go over 850 rami on race gas!
an a little more boost and ign.. also 1st gear upgrade looking good 
thanks for coming back to the uk and svm !! 
kk :thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

ROG350Z said:


> Mine ran 521 at Fly and 401 at Wheels with Titan and stock tune. Spiking apparently so bloody Ben might get more of my pension fund - Cobb is something I just didn't want to do but.......?! Titan lovely and sounds as fab as ever so thanks mate!


401whp + 30% t loss = 521fwhp 

We again had a great day with SVM. Currently working on the pics and Video which will be online COP tomorrow, the Santa Pod day video is being uploaded as we speak


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

I thought t loss on a GTR was 10-12% ?


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

ChuckUK said:


> I thought t loss on a GTR was 10-12% ?




And me. 

Hence i was wondering where the 30% came from and if a engine had been on a engine dino and then put in a car and run on a dino after.


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

ChuckUK said:


> I thought t loss on a GTR was 10-12% ?


Nope, my Honda being FWD still has 15%!

The Pod video is taking a while to upload


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

Well my conclustion in i have 100 bhp more than i thought i had! Happy days!


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

mattysupra said:


> Well my conclustion in i have 100 bhp more than i thought i had! Happy days!


:thumbsup:


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

Old news Dyno tests confirm Nissan GT-R drivetrain loss, power ratings


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

cant disbelieve the black dyno chuck baby lol 9.67 @ 145mph 

also all other results must be us as they all gave the same ratio of loss on the day!

can i again strees as the wheels were still spinning a true figure is more like 950++bhp

maybe chuck your right..and we only had 700 bhp
and last weekeng somehow got attatched to some super drag car..pulling us along

get real !!


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

KK, you cant just guess what power was lost through wheel spin. If the car is to powerfull and cant grip on the dino used then you are using the wrong type of dino. 

The car needs to be run a hub dino or the engine needs to be run on a engine dino and then results compared to get a true loss of power through trans. End of. 

Either way, im happy as if your results are correct i have alot more power than i thought i had. 

End of the day, the car has proven itself on the quarter so it must be making the power, me personally tho i think the wheel bhp is wrong. I think the flywheel bhp is around correct. But, if both are correct i have alot more power than i thought i had.


And more to teh point, how did you make the car 2wd! If you didnt make the car RWD but ran a run rwd only then teh results are going to be wrong, reading lower if anything, if you made the car 2wd then it will read higher.


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

@mattysupra 

It's "dyno"  - Sorry dude you said "Dino" too many times, hehe.

Jay


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

mattysupra said:


> KK, you cant just guess what power was lost through wheel spin. If the car is to powerfull and cant grip on the dino used then you are using the wrong type of dino.
> 
> The car needs to be run a hub dino or the engine needs to be run on a engine dino and then results compared to get a true loss of power through trans. End of.
> 
> ...


Hub reading will still not give a full "wheel" power figure as it doesnt take into effect the power lost by rotating the big heavy wheels. So again a total lost through the drivetrain will not be accurate. 

Anyways, TRL did a great job today, and Total Nissan where there too . We all know this car is rapid sounds awesome too from sitting in the boot. lol.


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

'dyno' sorry , dyslexic and all that LOL. 

And ye, i bet it sounded awsome in the boot. Like i have said from the start, i dont dought its flywheel BHP figure. It the wheel bhp v flywheel that dont make sence. I think the car is making more power @ the wheels than you lot think it was. 

If it is not then i have alot more bhp than i think i had , simples. Not here to argue, just try and work out why the R35 figures seem so different to other skylines. 

And ye, @ the hubs, you loose a bit as not driving the wheels. But at the end of the day, no wheelspin!


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

...


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

mattysupra said:


> 'dyno' sorry , dyslexic and all that LOL.
> 
> And ye, i bet it sounded awsome in the boot. Like i have said from the start, i dont dought its flywheel BHP figure. It the wheel bhp v flywheel that dont make sence. I think the car is making more power @ the wheels than you lot think it was.
> 
> ...


Let's just call it late night syndrome lol.

From what I know most 4wd drivetrains have 30% losses, and FWD generally around 15%. My old EVO 9 had 30% loss also. 

True, but then when you wheel spin to take the load of the drive shaft, on hub pack, no wheelspin.....be careful shaft lol

Oops ignore the above SVM post, my phone automatically logged in SVM, due todays updates earlier on the thread. Think it was the first time I had signal and nobody else did lol. Right bed time, I'm get late night syndrome too. Lol.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

30% loss

you should take the sawdust out of the transmission !


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

Jaw_F430 said:


> It was good to meet some new people today and the SVM cars all looked well:clap:


It was great to finally meet up with KK and his team, top chap! The paintwork on the Hulkster was outstanding, great job :thumbsup:



Jaw_F430 said:


> Had a nice drive back with Eddie . . . . . that road was reallllllyyyy bumpy:nervous:


Hehe, yeah it was a little bumpy, didn't seem to stop you too much thought :thumbsup: 

Good job on the picture upload 



Jaw_F430 said:


>


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

ARCAM 

i take it back you do look like your avatar pic lol

nice to meet you sir !


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## Jaw_F430 (Apr 14, 2009)

ChuckUK said:


> Old news Dyno tests confirm Nissan GT-R drivetrain loss, power ratings


The loss of 17% or less can't be correct. That would make my car ~450bhp but my car has run a terminal of 119mph at Santa Pod. To run 119mph at the weight my car is (weighed on the day of the run) it puts my power over 500bhp

Dynos do differ but when you run it at the pod that is the real world dyno. 

The best way IMO to look at dynos (unless its an engine dyno) is pick a dyno that you wish to use, dyno the car stock and that is your base line. Once you start tuning take it back to the same dyno and measure the delta. The gains are what you really want to know. 

When I used to have my Cooper S I used the same dyno for tuning and backed up the figure at Santa Pod. I did travel around going to various dyno days on Dyno Dynamics, Hoffmann dynos, Dynpak, Dynojet etc and my figures varied from 251bhp to 275bhp. It didn't matter what the figure read as long as it was consistent with the other cars there, some dynos we all got lower figures and other dynos we all got higher figures.


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## MrGT (Jul 6, 2009)

Jaw_F430 said:


> The loss of 17% or less can't be correct. That would make my car ~450bhp but my car has run a terminal of 119mph at Santa Pod. To run 119mph at the weight my car is (weighed on the day of the run) it puts my power over 500bhp
> 
> Dynos do differ but when you run it at the pod that is the real world dyno.
> 
> ...


+1 this is the only way to use a dyno in my opinion. you cant compare different dyno's/dyno operaters to each other as there are to many variables.

Tib

(also if people have a look in the post event section i've put up some pics of the day )


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## cows_R_us (Oct 26, 2010)

900 bhp .... so you got there thats great .. sorry couldnt stay to see you bungle 3 people in the boot lol ... but was a good day mine was 531 bhp and 406 so im very pleased  good luch with the 1/4 mile time to


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

cows_R_us said:


> mine was 531 bhp and 406 so im very pleased  good luch with the 1/4 mile time to


406 tq ?


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

ChuckUK said:


> 406 tq ?


Pretty sure that was 406whp and 531fly (Think this was the first GTR that went on)


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

cows_R_us said:


> 900 bhp .... so you got there thats great .. sorry couldnt stay to see you bungle 3 people in the boot lol ... but was a good day mine was 531 bhp and 406 so im very pleased  good luch with the 1/4 mile time to



3 in a boot, just editing pics and video and that one is going to be my screensaver hehe  

Your car was very strong, first one on the dyno i think? We ran our test footage on it, very nice


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## cows_R_us (Oct 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Pretty sure that was 406whp and 531fly (Think this was the first GTR that went on)



SORRY YE AS ABOVE LOL 

YE WAS 1ST ONE ON ... LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING WHAT YA SHOT


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

cows_R_us said:


> SORRY YE AS ABOVE LOL
> 
> YE WAS 1ST ONE ON ... LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING WHAT YA SHOT



Once we've done the main video, we will put up the raw footage of your GTR if you like.


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## cows_R_us (Oct 26, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Once we've done the main video, we will put up the raw footage of your GTR if you like.


:clap::clap::clap: PLEEEEASE


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

*reply*



cows_R_us said:


> 900 bhp .... so you got there thats great .. sorry couldnt stay to see you bungle 3 people in the boot lol ... but was a good day mine was 531 bhp and 406 so im very pleased  good luch with the 1/4 mile time to


Hi,

Let's just say 3 in the boot of a GTR will not allow you to close the bootlid ...lol

Yeah we had a good day and it was nice to see some fellow GTROC Members.


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## Come on Geoff (Sep 13, 2009)

*Legal?*

What a great looking car, love the different colour you chose. But it would look fantastic in any colour.. KK is that # plate legal? Cos I want one.


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## T80 GTR (Jan 10, 2010)

*plate*



Come on Geoff said:


> What a great looking car, love the different colour you chose. But it would look fantastic in any colour.. KK is that # plate legal? Cos I want one.


+1:thumbsup:


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## CarPlanetRacing (Jan 13, 2010)

In our experience using our Dyno Dynamics 4WD dyno, having dyno run many many standard cars before tuning (JDM and EDM) and comparing the WHP figures with Nissans' generally accepted stock power output of around 485-490HP FWHP. The losses on a GTR transmission are 20%. 

Losses of around 30% and more are normally seen only on 4WD systems with automatic torque converters, not the DCT style systems on these cars which do have a 100% mechanical lock through the drivetrain from the engine.

With experience of dyno-ing and mapping 1000+HP, 900+FtLb 4wd cars, it is quite possible, using the correct strapping techniques, to run these cars on a Dyno Dynamics 4WD dyno. It is impossible to estimate power when wheel spin is present as this gives large 'spikes' as grip is gained/lost on the rollers.




SVM said:


> On the day we saw that there were variances on transmission loss on the Dyno of between 26-32%.
> 
> Our own cars had a transmission loss of between 26 to 29 %. The great thing is when F-MAN's car made 700WHP we still feel there was more to give which was being affected by wheel spin.


KK, how are you getting your transmission losses *varying* between 26 and 29%?


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

same way you have on your car (just posted)
you claim 615bhp on your own rollers! with a 20% stated loss =770bhp NOT

TRY OVER 25% LOSS ! KK

its much easier taking them to the black dyno, my advice change the rods first !!
its all very well saying you got 770bhp..i do hope you turn it down for your customers sake..


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## CarPlanetRacing (Jan 13, 2010)

kevan kemp said:


> same way you have on your car (just posted)
> you claim 615bhp on your own rollers! with a 20% stated loss =770bhp NOT
> 
> TRY OVER 25% LOSS ! KK
> ...


Hi KK,

We claim 20% transmission loss estimate, due to our experience dyno testing stock cars. We were curious as to how you were getting 26-29% losses?

Maybe it's a little too early in the morning for maths at your end but

770bhp minus 20% Transmission Loss (770 x 0.80) = 616 BHP At the Wheels 

Where did you get 25% from? at 25% loss the car would be recording 577.5 HP at the wheels.

And as for the rods, as we have stated, it is torque that will break a rod, not necessarily power, but we will be uprating the rods when this customer heads up past 680lbft.


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

CarPlanetRacing said:


> In our experience using our Dyno Dynamics 4WD dyno, having dyno run many many standard cars before tuning (JDM and EDM) and comparing the WHP figures with Nissans' generally accepted stock power output of around 485-490HP FWHP. The losses on a GTR transmission are 20%.
> 
> Losses of around 30% and more are normally seen only on 4WD systems with automatic torque converters, not the DCT style systems on these cars which do have a 100% mechanical lock through the drivetrain from the engine.
> 
> ...



If you read this thread cars were near stock were making 406whp. Some cars showed losses of 26% and some of near 32%, not just the SVM cars, but as you will see above a users car make 406whp and 535fwhp has a Y-Pipe on it i think.

As Kev said, how did you work out your figure of 770hp? Has if you dyno gives you a WHP figure of 615 do you not add 20% to get the estimate flywheel figure? as 615 + 20% = 738hp?

I know if you get 770hp then minus 20% (obviously will be larger this way) you get 615hp, but then you dyno would need to give you the flywheel figure, but this way isnt accurrate is it?

Man this dyno stuff is confusing, lets get everyone to Santa Pod, and we'll make a great video hehe. 

Jay


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

im up for that....kk


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## mickv (May 27, 2009)

Surely the dyno can only give a whp reading. Any flywheel power figures quoted here can only be estimates. If a dyno spits out a flywheel figure it can only be running a simple calc to get to it, based on a transmission loss % that someone's told it use - garbage in, garbage out isn't it?

CPRs calc method is correct. If you are measuring transmission loss, it has to be this way round: loss % = (1 - whp/fwhp)x100%

So, CPR are correct to say they get a 20% transmission loss, but if they haven't had the engine on an engine dyno to measure the fwhp, their 20% loss is only a guess too. 

So, you're all just guessing. :chairshot

Surely it's comparative whp figures that count, comparing different cars on the same dyno on the same day. 

But even that's not necessarily a good indication of the most important thing, which is how the car performs on piece of tarmac it was designed for - whether that's drag strip, race track or road, surely?


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

mickv said:


> But even that's not necessarily a good indication of the most important thing, which is how the car performs on piece of tarmac it was designed for - whether that's drag strip, race track or road, surely?


That would be awesome, a proper shoot out all the GTR UK tuners there!


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## CarPlanetRacing (Jan 13, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> If you read this thread cars were near stock were making 406whp. Some cars showed losses of 26% and some of near 32%, not just the SVM cars, but as you will see above a users car make 406whp and 535fwhp has a Y-Pipe on it i think.
> 
> As Kev said, how did you work out your figure of 770hp? Has if you dyno gives you a WHP figure of 615 do you not add 20% to get the estimate flywheel figure? as 615 + 20% = 738hp?
> 
> ...


Hi Jay,

The transmission losses that were being quoted on the day in our opinion are over the top, they are not what we have concluded during testing various stock GT-Rs (Euro and JDM) over the last 3+ years on our own Dyno Dynamics Rolling Road.

Stock 2007-2010 GT-R rolls around 380-395hp at the wheels, thats a fact. Different days, different temps etc, they all roll around this power. Nissan quote 485bhp at the flywheel. 

Jay, your maths is also wrong, you are not adding 20% of the wheel horsepower figure on top of it. You are losing 20% of your flywheel hp.

380whp divided by 0.8 = 475bhp
395whp divided by 0.8 = 493.75

We stuck at 20% estimate for losses through the Transmission.

As for the car with the Y-Pipe upgrade, no, this engine would not be producing 535bhp, where is this 535bhp claimed from?

406whp is very typical of a Y-Pipe Upgrade (Our Stage 1 Upgrade which is Y-Pipe and Panel Filters produces on an example car 409.4HP at the wheels, with a 20% loss that car would produce 511.8HP at the flywheel).


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

CarPlanetRacing said:


> As for the car with the Y-Pipe upgrade, no, this engine would not be producing 535bhp, where is this 535bhp claimed from?


These numbers were given to owners on the TRL Dyno Day, by TRL i believe. 

Doing it your way is not far off the number quote for SVM Cars here (if) using a 20% t-loss.

Rami - 646.5 @ wheels x 0.80 = 807 (TRL said 812)
Steve - 598.9 @ wheels x 0.80 = 749 (TRL said 755)
F-MAN's - 699.9 @ wheels x 0.80 = 875 (TRL said 910) (Although this was still wheel spining.

So there near enough spot on regrads Steve's and Rami's (6hp) in it. F-MAN's is hard to get at because of the traction issue's.

So either way its pretty much there, i dont know about other users though, they have posted in this thread.

Cheers for your reply


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

CPR maths is right, regardless dyno figures are the reserve of pub talk! Dyno is only useful for before and after to see comparative performance gains IMO


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

alloy said:


> CPR maths is right, regardless dyno figures are the reserve of pub talk! Dyno is only useful for before and after to see comparative performance gains IMO


Agreed! 

The 1/4 is where its at. :thumbsup:


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Agreed!
> 
> The 1/4 is where its at. :thumbsup:


Again subjective.... a well balanced and responsive car can be faster round a circuit than a BHP monster car....depends what you want, something to drive well in the real world or something to brag to your mates about....(n.b. i'm not saying big bhp builds don't drive well before you all jump on that band wagon  )


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## F.MAN. (Jul 19, 2010)

1/4 mile is def where its at...Jap show 19th June.....Battle of the tuners

I will be there with my SVM built car....anyone want to meet me before that i should be at all the RWYB's in may..bring it on 

Its a shame that all these tuners cant work together and congratulate each of on their acheivments...We should all be working as a team to beat the Americans... Bhp and fwhp doesnt mean a thing its about getting the power on the tarmack.


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## Rami (Oct 4, 2009)

F.MAN. said:


> 1/4 mile is def where its at...Jap show 19th June.....Battle of the tuners
> 
> I will be there with my SVM built car....anyone want to meet me before that i should be at all the RWYB's in may..bring it on
> 
> Its a shame that all these tuners cant work together and congratulate each of on their acheivments...We should all be working as a team to beat the Americans... Bhp and fwhp doesnt mean a thing its about getting the power on the tarmack.


Finally a reply that makes some sense


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

F.MAN. said:


> 1/4 mile is def where its at...Jap show 19th June.....Battle of the tuners
> 
> I will be there with my SVM built car....anyone want to meet me before that i should be at all the RWYB's in may..bring it on
> 
> Its a shame that all these tuners cant work together and congratulate each of on their acheivments...We should all be working as a team to beat the Americans... Bhp and fwhp doesnt mean a thing its about getting the power on the tarmack.


Don't want to hi jack thread, but can you just turn up to watch and pay on the door for the Jap Show? Really want to go with a few mates but buying tickets is a nightmare, because as you all know people let you down, lol.

Jimbo


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## andrew186 (May 3, 2010)

saucyboy said:


> Don't want to hi jack thread, but can you just turn up to watch and pay on the door for the Jap Show? Really want to go with a few mates but buying tickets is a nightmare, because as you all know people let you down, lol.
> 
> Jimbo


yeah u can


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

andrew186 said:


> yeah u can


Cheers mate, can't wait to see all these big build motors going for it :flame:

Jimbo


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

As I have always said (and it particularly applies to R35's because driver error plays a very small role in the times/mph you can get) just go get weighed, go to the strip and compare mph V weight and you'll have a very accurate indication of whp.

You can all leave the line pretty much the same (60ft time has almost no effect on mph in a case like this), you can all pull a lever and change gear pretty much the same, the car does alot for you, comparing mph on a dragstrip is by far the easiest way to prove who has the best "usable" combination.

When you start cracking well into the 150s on the 1/4, you have a quick street car.

With regards to R35 transmission losses, I'd have to agree I think it'd be closer to 20% than 30%, they are very efficient and I felt SVMs whp figures quoted the other day were low but the bhp estimates were pretty much spot on as the mph on the 1/4 backed him up 100%

Rob


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

thats the trouble no other tuner has the balls to do this...

they hide behind their money making rollers!!!

play on the fact hrs have been spent doing x y z and never infact built an r35 engine of any real power !

and then deem their safe lol!!!

our records stand for true power and results ?

i agree all tuners should get out their !!


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

KK, do you map your own cars or do you have a mapper you use for this? As in does SVM have a in house mapper ?

And what ecu do you use? Do you use this cobb thing or fit a different ecu (sorry, my knowledge on cobb etc is zero)


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

kevan kemp said:


> thats the trouble no other tuner has the balls to do this...
> 
> they hide behind their money making rollers!!!



I know what you mean, don't get me started, lol :chairshot:chairshot

Disclaimer: WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT ANYONE IN PARTICULAR

Some don't even have a dyno and I've lost count at how many "my cars make more power than yours debates" I've had with various tuners/car owners but without fail we back up dyno results with real world results (time slips don't lie yet I have been accused of faking video and time slips when some were getting desperate), yet where are their REAL results that correctly back up their power claims in any particular car? no-where to be seen strangely enough :nervous::nervous:

People can claim all sorts of things and if they can find customers that believe what they say and are happy to pay then good luck to them I suppose, I just would have thought after literally years of no results that correctly back up the hype, and countless quality/engine problems, people would have seen the light.............

I just keep doing what I'm doing and leave everyone else to it now, its just not worth the hassle.....my proof is on my wall, in my trophy cabinet and in my boxes filled with 1000s of timeslips.

Robbie.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

mattysupra said:


> KK, do you map your own cars or do you have a mapper you use for this? As in does SVM have a in house mapper ?
> 
> And what ecu do you use? Do you use this cobb thing or fit a different ecu (sorry, my knowledge on cobb etc is zero)


all ecu work by ben @gtc:thumbsup: over 500miles with each car not an 1hr job on the rollers!!! r35s hate them with their 4wd systems and impossible to put the power down when you have this much lol

yes cobb nis 06 

soon using 4 bar map sensors not mafs 
4.2 strokers /mid sleeves and much more. all controlled by the ap unit and ben the man pressing the buttons !


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

you map for 500 miles on the road? That must take over a week? how much do you charge for that? 

Also i thought Ben used a dyno? 


I do like Dyno mapping myself, my last to maps both took 2 days on the dyno to do and then on the road also for a hour or 2 to fine tune . 

however, i have seen planty of cars get mapped on dynos in the past in a hour or 2 that is just not possible to do properly. I have also seen cars being mapped on the road in 1 hour or so that is defo not possible.

O and ye, i dumped AFM's years ago like most others. map sensor is the way forward for powerfull cars.


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

mattysupra said:


> you map for 500 miles on the road? That must take over a week? how much do you charge for that?
> 
> Also i thought Ben used a dyno?
> 
> ...



Use both. certainly 35's like hulk will need to be dialed in on dyno in controlled environment.

But generally both myself and Thistle not really dyno fans, can not replicate road conditions on a dyno. You can set up ign timing with no knock on dyno, then an hours hard use on road can be different story. Similar we'd far sooner trust the factory sensors over a wide band on the dyno especially with two sets of cats unless start drilling holes in exhaust.

yes we're also hoping to dump maf sensors in favour of map sensors soon as Thistle nailed GTR SD


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> Use both. certainly 35's like hulk will need to be dialed in on dyno in controlled environment.
> 
> But generally both myself and Thistle not really dyno fans, can not replicate road conditions on a dyno. You can set up ign timing with no knock on dyno, then an hours hard use on road can be different story. Similar we'd far sooner trust the factory sensors over a wide band on the dyno especially with two sets of cats unless start drilling holes in exhaust.
> 
> yes we're also hoping to dump maf sensors in favour of map sensors soon as Thistle nailed GTR SD



My mapper now (MGT Racing) will not map a car unless he has his own wideband plugged in also. They drilled my exhaust and fitted a lamba, they also have the dynos lamber at the end of the exhaust and i think (i could be wrong) they also have the stock lambers giving feedback also. Like i say tho, they spent 2 days on the dyno with my car and then we went out on the street also but only for trimming light throttle use. i was told however to drive the car how i would drive it and anything that i picked up on they would adjust to my driving style. So basically my car is mapped to how i drive it. Im not sure if this would make a difference to the next owner? 

End of the day tho, if you map the car to the best of its ability on the road and get the same results then there is no issue. 

But one thing i will say tho, i have seen cars turn up (none of yours ben! ) and go on there dyno mapped buy other tunners. I have witnessed the AF feedback and seen what power they was making at what boost pressure. Every car so far i have seen them improve the map. 

For instance, the last car i watched on the dino the AF was 10 -10.5 on tickover and through the power run! It was also boosting to 2.0 bar. After MGT had finished with it on the Dyno it was running correct AF and making the same power @ 1.8 bar with less revs also. (torque + BHP that is ) 

This car was mapped on a Dyno previous but obviously the mapper did nit take as much care in the map.



I think i need to learn more abot this Cobb thing you use and understand it more. Any links to info?


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

mattysupra said:


> you map for 500 miles on the road? That must take over a week? how much do you charge for that?
> 
> Also i thought Ben used a dyno?
> 
> ...


from start to finish yes a week !
we also put them on rollers...as you have seen..
we get through up to 20 mapping sessions for each car takes hrs of hard work..for myself and benji..:thumbsup:


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Some dynos with some cars can be really useful for fault finding and safely putting a powerful car under load. However, despite good rolling roads, good cooling and good operators, on other occasions the car seems to behave rather differently between rollers and road in terms of knock, AFR and boost. So different that a car that is mapped safely and correctly for its intended use and gets results on the track or circuit can look like a basket case on the dyno. I haven't explained this discrepancy yet, and it seems to happen on just the sort of rollers that people say it doesn't happen to when I'm there 

One memorable experience was achieving 20% less power and less torque than another car of similar weight on a dyno. Afterwards we went to an airfield day and repeatedly with the drivers swapped between the cars, my car pulled 4 cars lengths on the other one on the quarter mile, and this was not related to launch, but also from a rolling start. My car had been set up by me to provide safe acceleration on tarmac. The other car had been mapped on the dyno.

I worry about the feasibility of setting up the very powerful R35s, certainly on the road from the safety, legality, traction points of view. Hiring a track/airfield would be best perhaps.

The idea of my development of the Cobb Accessport is to produce the refinement and value of the OEM ECU with the facilities you get on a standalone like customisations, fast logging, speed density, realtime mapping, configurable knock control, full time wideband lambda etc.


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## bobel (Jul 26, 2010)

Can I just ask one question as I don't know a huge amount on the ECU tuning side more so the mechanicals, where does this leave the Cobb and datalogging, how do you achieve good repeatable results using it when you can spend hours on a dyno or custom mapping on a road for individuals cars, do you have to get multiple datalogs to ensure that a Cobb map is performing properly on a given car (when remotely tuned) or is the above only really relative to higher bhp levels with upgraded intakes etc? And not your typical stage 1&2 mods

Thanx


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Stage 1 and 2 cars are relatively easy. With so much experience mapping them, as long as known intakes are used, sometimes the first flash gives a near perfect and consistent datalog.

The fuel is continuous closed loop wideband controlled and runs what you ask without problems as well as the injectors are properly scaled (2000cc are tricky, 1000cc are routine) and the intakes are a known design with an existing calibration, plus there are no mechanical problems such as leaks, actuators badly adjusted/fouling the chassis etc.

Ignition is closed loop controlled with respect to knock. Generally on an unknown spec you start low and work up. More work is required for noisy cams or pistons, or even suspension and engine mounts where the stock knock control needs to be retuned to avoid false knock.

Boost is a case of setting up a wastegate table which benefits from experience and practice on the R35.


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## muzzer2002 (Oct 10, 2007)

at the end of the day its all in the map what power you get 

all mappers are slightly different 

dynos are great tools but does your car react the same way on the road as it would on the rollers eh NO


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

most of the fastest / most powerful skylines in UK where logged on airfield / strip..

duke R33 - Millbrook
keith cowie - elvington airstrip
fuujin - initially on dyno with oem gearbox, then at drag strip

etc


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

ok very soon now for the video of the day "showing" the cars
hopefully we can all draw a line under the results, 
CPRand SVM have agreed to call a truce ...ive accepted we have our way and they theirs!
only a few tuners doing these cars so lets all put the past behind and move on for the good of cars and progress..
come on 12 star....im ready !!!!!!
kk

i hope you guys enjoy the clips of these monster r35s


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## Rami (Oct 4, 2009)

kevan kemp said:


> ok very soon now for the video of the day "showing" the cars
> hopefully we can all draw a line under the results,
> CPRand SVM have agreed to call a truce ...ive accepted we have our way and they theirs!
> only a few tuners doing these cars so lets all put the past behind and move on for the good of cars and progress..
> ...


This deserves a quote! :clap:


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## bobel (Jul 26, 2010)

thistle said:


> Stage 1 and 2 cars are relatively easy. With so much experience mapping them, as long as known intakes are used, sometimes the first flash gives a near perfect and consistent datalog.
> 
> The fuel is continuous closed loop wideband controlled and runs what you ask without problems as well as the injectors are properly scaled (2000cc are tricky, 1000cc are routine) and the intakes are a known design with an existing calibration, plus there are no mechanical problems such as leaks, actuators badly adjusted/fouling the chassis etc.
> 
> ...


So essentially the ecu can augment to eliminate knock through the closed loop control, if so is there virtually no chance of knock damage or is the damage from the initial knock and subsequent reduced knock as the control starts to adjust, sorry for the questions just really interested in this stuff,


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Very little change of knock damage unless you have something really silly in the map.


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