# Disillusioned ownership



## MPC-GTR (Aug 30, 2004)

I'm sure we've all been a bit put out by ownership costs of Skyline ownership, but I'm wondering if the time is nigh to say bye-bye.
Took my car in for what I suspected would just be an MOT and fixing of a slight rattle from the antiroll bar strut. Now I'm faced with a bill for nearly £3,000 for new front discs, rear brake hoses, fixing turbo elbow blowing and gaskets (oh, and fixing of the original antiroll rattle). I only drove the thing 3 times since the last service when it needed £1,300 on a new clutch, and none of these 3 new faults were noticed then. All in all I have only driven 8,000 miles in my car over the duration of nearly 3 years of ownership, yet these 8,000 miles have cost me over £10,000 in garage bills. The car is a UK 99 R34 GTR running around 400bhp (stage 1 upgrade done around 6,500 miles ago). I've only driven on the track once and am pretty "mechanically sympathetic" when it comes to driving, so are these kind of costs normal?

I have been thinking of selling up and getting the new 2.5l impreza STI as a sole car instead - is this heracy?

Still thinking at the moment before deciding to sell. Pics of car are on one of the members photos threads from last year.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

is this all at a reputable tuner/garage?


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## MPC-GTR (Aug 30, 2004)

Middlehurst.


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## DODGY (Oct 28, 2001)

Take it to RB mate u'll get a better price and Rod still does some of there work. Rod and 2 other people that work there used to work for middlehurst.

Graham


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

if i had a car serviced and they didn't notice worn discs, i'd not take it back


mook


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## Bajie (Dec 13, 2001)

Keep it and drive it mate.
I love Impreza's but would never go back to one.
As suggested, get some quotes from other reputable sources and make a decision.


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## MPC-GTR (Aug 30, 2004)

I've only taken it to Middlehurst because of some false sense of security thinking it's the best place to take it to get a complete service history especially since it was an ex-middlehurst car in the first place. I realize now that this is not worth it. Next time, if I still have the car I'll take it elsewhere


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## koopa (Aug 18, 2005)

not all bad mate  i did 3000 miles in my s1 exige before i sold it and in that time i never tracked her once. Needed a full engine rebuild, track rod ends, new windscreen, 4 new yoko a048's and a full set of discs and pads....not much change from 11k on top of what i paid for her!!! I put it down to a bad experience which everyone will have with a car at some stage in their life im afraid. If you want cheap reliable thrills i would go for an 1999 honda integra type R, track it and thrash it allll day long. A scooby or an evo still needs oil changes every 3k, services every 6k and will still cost an arm and a leg for clutches etc. Tuning the cars past 330bhp is silly money too


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

Buy a cheaper car?


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## floatindolphin (Aug 17, 2004)

and shop around for prices!!!! you've been right royally ass raped!


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

Holy Snikeys Son...something doesnt sound right!!!

This isnt a Ferrari for Fecks sake!!!!


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

MPC-GTR said:


> I'm sure we've all been a bit put out by ownership costs of Skyline ownership, but I'm wondering if the time is nigh to say bye-bye.
> Took my car in for what I suspected would just be an MOT and fixing of a slight rattle from the antiroll bar strut. Now I'm faced with a bill for nearly £3,000 for new front discs, rear brake hoses, fixing turbo elbow blowing and gaskets (oh, and fixing of the original antiroll rattle). I only drove the thing 3 times since the last service when it needed £1,300 on a new clutch, and none of these 3 new faults were noticed then. All in all I have only driven 8,000 miles in my car over the duration of nearly 3 years of ownership, yet these 8,000 miles have cost me over £10,000 in garage bills. The car is a UK 99 R34 GTR running around 400bhp (stage 1 upgrade done around 6,500 miles ago). I've only driven on the track once and am pretty "mechanically sympathetic" when it comes to driving, so are these kind of costs normal?
> 
> I have been thinking of selling up and getting the new 2.5l impreza STI as a sole car instead - is this heracy?
> ...


That would be the skyline Tax!

Seriously mate, try and get handy with a spanner and a ratchet, because if you do you can save thousands and owning a skyline would not be a financial burden.


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## crazylabmonkey (Mar 20, 2006)

I agree with Yunis A,Im a machanic by trade and love working on cars,aside from having a hyundai elantra(4cyl mitsubishi engine) for petrol reasons (40mpg hwy/30mpg cty) and a pain in the bum to do a break job on(pressed rotors) the fact of the matter is I have saved god knows how much$$ on repairs by doing them myself and its fun so if your love of cars is more of driving them and not so much working on them you should get a cheaper car and track it you will save money in the long run,as soon as I get my GTR my girl will be under the bonnet with me working on it I can't wait!


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## sean_goodman (Jan 11, 2006)

been looking for new shocks for my 99 gtr, rb motorsport and abbey both quoted about 80 inc vat for the fronts.
middlehurst quoted 150 something without vat!!!!

just my experience


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

Look at the labour rates you pay before committing. Newera charges £45 + VAT with qualified and honest staff who won't tell you you need something you don't. Not saying Middlehurst do this, but we know of at least one well known tuner who makes a habit of telling customers they need a lot more repairs than is really the case.

PM me if you want details for reliable service work that won't break the bank.


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## MADsteve (Nov 25, 2004)

Newera said:


> but we know of at least one well known tuner who makes a habit of telling customers they need a lot more repairs than is really the case.


Can you pm me who this might be, so I can AVOID them like the plague??


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Newera said:


> Look at the labour rates you pay before committing. Newera charges £45 + VAT with qualified and honest staff who won't tell you you need something you don't. Not saying Middlehurst do this, but we know of at least one well known tuner who makes a habit of telling customers they need a lot more repairs than is really the case.
> 
> PM me if you want details for reliable service work that won't break the bank.


Well 45+vat is the going rate these days, which is not too bad I suppose. But when you get tuners saying 70+vat 90+vat and 100+vat that is a hell of a lot of money to be throwing down the rubbish bin! Which is why it pays to be able to do majoriy of the work yourself and only when you are challenged by lack of a ramp, or work space/equipment should you look for assistance. Or do your home work and find a good tuner that charges good honest rates.

When it comes to honesty over money, people forget the honesty part as greed takes over. Its human nature so I guess its the punters that have to be smart and keep one step ahead.


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## jimfortune (Sep 9, 2005)

crazylabmonkey said:


> I agree with Yunis A,Im a machanic by trade and love working on cars,aside from having a hyundai elantra(4cyl mitsubishi engine) for petrol reasons (40mpg hwy/30mpg cty) and a pain in the bum to do a break job on(pressed rotors) the fact of the matter is I have saved god knows how much$$ on repairs by doing them myself and its fun so if your love of cars is more of driving them and not so much working on them you should get a cheaper car and track it you will save money in the long run,as soon as I get my GTR my girl will be under the bonnet with me working on it I can't wait!



I can see what your saying....but....

For some of us who are not mechanically minded (me for instance) shouldn't own a skyline So should I just go out and buy myself a Micra and be grateful cause I dont know how to do some of the work on my car??? 

OH come on be serious!!!


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

koopa said:


> If you want cheap reliable thrills i would go for an 1999 Honda integra type R, track it and thrash it allll day long. A scooby or an evo still needs oil changes every 3k, services every 6k and will still cost an arm and a leg for clutches etc. Tuning the cars past 330bhp is silly money too


Very sound advice - Hondas run all day long and if they break they are cheap to fix. To be honest pulling away from a Type R in a stage 1 GT-R will require you either dropping the clutch at stupid RPM's or driving at illegal speeds so just as much fun can be had with a Teg Type R and they corner fantastically well also :smokin:


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

jimfortune said:


> I can see what your saying....but....
> 
> For some of us who are not mechanically minded (me for instance) shouldn't own a skyline So should I just go out and buy myself a Micra and be grateful cause I dont know how to do some of the work on my car???
> 
> OH come on be serious!!!


did you read what else I said? wise up and find someone who charges good honest rates

I do feel sorry for skyline owners especially those who are on normal salaries. 

Tuners seem to think based on the days when new R33 were 50k and those who brought it were super rich dudes, so they just kept pushing rates higher and higher.

I have accepted defeat a few times and got a garage to do the work for me.. and my wallet did not get raped either


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## jimfortune (Sep 9, 2005)

Sorry Yunis this wasn't aimed at you but at this quote.



crazylabmonkey said:


> so if your love of cars is more of driving them and not so much working on them you should get a cheaper car



I love driving my skyline but because i dont know how to fix a lot of the problems i should get a cheaper car???


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

thats cool mate

I agree, skylines need not be expensive to run or repair compared to other cars, its just the way that things are in the uk makes them appear so...


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## MPC-GTR (Aug 30, 2004)

Just had a call to say both turbos are cracked and need replacing!! how much more can go wrong, thats a further £1,400. I may as well have "bend me over" tatooed on my forehead.

Anyone want a Skyline?


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## DODGY (Oct 28, 2001)

Someone will have some 2nd hand ones. 1400 will get them rebuild with internals. Question the price with them, and get a quote from someone else.

Graham


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## MPC-GTR (Aug 30, 2004)

That is the price for 2 used with uprated internals


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

buy your self some from garret, ie HKS GTSS equiv, 600 quid each GT2860R -5


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## Spoons (Jul 6, 2005)

I've got a pair of low miles R33 gtr turbos with steel internals in bits but complete as they were inspected, seal and thrust bearing had gone. You are welcome to them if they help FOC.


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## GrahamM (Oct 27, 2003)

MPC-GTR said:


> Just had a call to say both turbos are cracked and need replacing!! how much more can go wrong, thats a further £1,400. I may as well have "bend me over" tatooed on my forehead.
> 
> Anyone want a Skyline?


What mileage is on the car?


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

MPC-GTR said:


> Just had a call to say both turbos are cracked and need replacing!! how much more can go wrong, thats a further £1,400. I may as well have "bend me over" tatooed on my forehead.
> 
> Anyone want a Skyline?


I bought some second hand ones from Abbey last year,OK they aren`t new but there was nothing wrong with them, £ 300.
Theyv`e run perfectly since.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Abbey Motorsport,have always treated me very fairly with my gtr. 

Before you have any work carried out on your car,you need a second opinion. 
This could not even save you money,but put your mind at rest.



Steve


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## plasticbub (Dec 22, 2005)

GARAGES HAVE YOUR PANTS DOWN EVERY TIME, EVEN THE ONES YOU THINK ARE GOOD TO YOU. SOME ARE WORSE THAN OTHERS , YOU MUST FIND THE RIGHT ONE. THAT SEEMS SO EXPENSIVE FOR THE LITTLE WORK YOU HAD DONE.


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## MPC-GTR (Aug 30, 2004)

I think its difficult when a garage already has your car and the engine is out for another job, to think that taking it elsewhere is going to incur costs greater than the saving you may make on the parts at the original garage. The costs for each turbo is £560 excluding vat for standard size but uprated steel internals.

Thinking about the costs of running 2 cars and this latest in a long line of expediture I have decided that I'll keep it for a few months to try and get some joy from it, then I'll put it up for sale towards the end of summer. I'll post some pics nearer the time with a full list of specs. In the interim, some pics from last year can be seen under the "work and play" thread in owners pics section.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

MPC-GTR said:


> I think its difficult when a garage already has your car and the engine is out for another job, to think that taking it elsewhere is going to incur costs greater than the saving you may make on the parts at the original garage.




That is of course,if the work actually needs doing


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

Well i have been stung by that garage before - (a whole lot less money i might add) so i wont be using their services again.

It certainly pays to shop around, and if i've learnt 1 thing, its that main dealer's are the worse place to get your car 'looked after'!!


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

TREG said:


> That is of course,if the work actually needs doing


Exactly.

It's not like you can easily check whether the turbos are definitely shagged, which sounds unlikely. I've never actually heard of turbos cracking before anyway - the wheels can "blow up" (for want of a better expression) from too much boost over a period of time, etc. But the cast casings cracking?? on both turbos? Hmmm...

My money is on you being told that out of the blue you also happen to have a cracked block too, another thing that you can't easily dispute - especially if they already think you're a soft touch.

Take it from someone who got royally mugged on my R33 by a certain unnamed tuner, it happens - more often than most people want to believe or acknowledge. From overcharging, charging for parts that haven't even been fitted (or have already been fitted and charged for before) to flat out lying about the condition of engines... 

You see that programme recently on Estate Agents? Kinda struck me as similar in many respects..... As Cem said on another thread, we're living in a country run by "middle men" - and if you aren't a mechanic yourself, or have a very close mate who is one - you should expect to get robbed owning a Skyline.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

worries me that said "reputable" garages are getting away with it


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

they've been doing it since the dawn of time mook


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

even well known tuners on here though??!!??!

I'd understand fly-by-night firms, not established tuners!

Mook


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

par example:

Audi dealer
£99 per hour labour rate
items which should be included in a full service : oil door locks and hinges, check tyre pressure, etc. all booked as quater of an hour extra!!!!!

RIP OFF!


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> even well known tuners on here though??!!??!
> 
> I'd understand fly-by-night firms, not established tuners!
> 
> Mook


ahh you said "garages" first, not rep. tuner's 

garages = yes

tuner's = i'd like to think not + i have little experience with many rep. tuners


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Durzel said:


> Take it from someone who got royally mugged on my R33 by a certain unnamed tuner,


As durzel said

worrying


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

My father owns a small car repair garage and prides itself on accurate, reliable, cheap, honest and friendly service to its customers.

the amount of cars we see that have come from main dealers that haven't been repaired / serviced correctly is quite frankly frightening !


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> worries me that said "reputable" garages are getting away with it


Well thats true, but they have their so called puppets who big them up and their services all the time.. thats why they get away with it...


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

MPC-GTR said:


> Just had a call to say both turbos are cracked and need replacing!! how much more can go wrong, thats a further £1,400. I may as well have "bend me over" tatooed on my forehead.
> 
> Anyone want a Skyline?


Wow...your car sounds like a complete piece of crap!!!! How can so much go so wrong with a low mileage car? I dont hear of alot of other folks with these problems...especially at such low mileage! 

I think somehtings up!

And for the record I dont think your car is crap!!!


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=51610

PS, here's your turbos!!! 400GBP


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> As durzel said
> 
> worrying


They don't use the forums, or if they do they're not very vocal.

Having said that, I agree with Cems comment - and its not specific to Skyline tuners (all of them), but any industry where you're very much held by the balls by people. The bottom line is - if they know you have no alternative, they will - in most cases - charge the maximum amount of money they think they can get away with. Maybe that's a cynical attitude, but its one based on experience.

How else can you explain, for example, PowerFCs costing £1000+ in this country when you can import them yourself from Japan for less than 1/3 of this, even taking into account import duty/VAT? There's no logic for it - it's exploitation, pure and simple.

And therein is the rub. If you aren't prepared to argue about things, or just assume that what you're being told _by anyone in this position of power_ is the gospel truth - then you're probably going to end up paying through the nose for a lot of things. This is true of Skylines, of estate agents (clearly as evidenced by the recent programme), builders, plumbers, etc.

There's good eggs obviously, and I'd like to think the tuners that use this forum are among them. However, the best piece of advice I could give to anyone buying a Skyline is - get yourself acquainted with how much things cost in Japan, don't be afraid to get second opinions or ask if things really _need_ to be done, ask other people for advice before accepting what a tuner says you "need" (which can and will vary from tuner to tuner - the "there are more than one ways to skin a cat" adage applies - i.e. there is more than one way to reach XXXbhp), etc.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Durzel said:


> They don't use the forums, or if they do they're not very vocal.
> 
> Having said that, I agree with Cems comment - and its not specific to Skyline tuners (all of them), but any industry where you're very much held by the balls by people. The bottom line is - if they know you have no alternative, they will - in most cases - charge the maximum amount of money they think they can get away with. Maybe that's a cynical attitude, but its one based on experience.
> 
> ...


Is this really Durzel?? thats not like you to be saying such things 

I have said it all along, majority of Tuners are rip offs, from the prices of parts they supply, to their huge labour rates. But it seems that more and more people are waking up to this and realising that they are being financially screwed over big time.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

"Rip offs" is strong, I wouldn't go that far. I definitely think that certain things cost a lot more than they need to, even taking into account profit margins, but that's about it. Since I'm relatively savvy having imported things myself from Japan it doesn't bother me too much, I simply don't proceed with the quote. I do feel a little sorry for people who have scraped together money to buy a Skyline only to get landed with bills for parts they don't necessarily need, or worse still - weren't even broken to begin with.

A good thing that has come out of Skyline ownership is that it has made me less timid at just accepting what anyone in this sort of position tells me at face value. This - unfortunately - doesn't make me their ideal customer at the end of the day.

I don't mind paying a professional for a job well done, particularly something I wouldn't have a hope of being able to do myself, but I draw the line at paying for parts that I know they have got for probably 1/5th of the cost I'm being charged. There's profits, and there's taking the proverbial yellow liquid.

I wouldn't advise anyone who was completely clueless about car mechanics (what the engines are made up of, a vague idea of what they cost, etc) to buy a Skyline, put it that way. As far as plumbers, builders, estate agents and co. are concerned - well, you just have to pray you get a decent one because it's not like you have a choice either way.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Yunis ... what is it you do for money .. ie. what do as a job?


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

I agree with many of your points Durzel..not all skyline owners are loaded, and not many can do a simple mechanical repair or service. I mean to pay around 300 quid for an oil change (engine oil, filter and gearbox oil) now that is taking it too far and bordering on rip off.. (if rip off is too strong

When I first brought mine, I was between jobs and money was tight, plus I had brought a place, so last thing I wanted to do was pay silly money for a few bits that needed to be done. Plus I was not familiar with how the skyline worked. Some of the quotes I got were shocking! I then remembered RK Tuning who were then based in Highgate (I used to drive past there on a daily bases to and from work) and he did some investigation work for me( car was severely low on power - dead afms) and had some steering slack (duff bush) and did the job at half the price of some other Tuners that gave me a quote. 

Crail looser, I earn a good wage, but I hate the idea of throwing it away for no reason, when there is a cheaper method with out sacrificing quality.


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

jimfortune said:


> I love driving my skyline but because i dont know how to fix a lot of the problems i should get a cheaper car???


No - just stop moaning about it!


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> Crail looser, I earn a good wage, but I hate the idea of throwing it away for no reason, when there is a cheaper method with out sacrificing quality.



I dont doubt it Yunis ... I was just enquiring as to what it is that you do to deserve such a good wage?


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## Jim27 (Jul 1, 2004)

MPC-GTR said:


> I think its difficult when a garage already has your car and the engine is out for another job, to think that taking it elsewhere is going to incur costs greater than the saving you may make on the parts at the original garage. The costs for each turbo is £560 excluding vat for standard size but uprated steel internals.


True, many garages will try it on once you're in a position where you're over a barrel. Once your engine's out many will think they have you buy the sort and curlies and tell you XYZ needs doing as well.

Be prepared to stand your ground. 

Get a full up-to-date balance of account from them, in writing. By this I mean what the costs are so far. Then get a full written quote from them, listing all the work that needs doing. Then call round the other tuners for quotes on the same work. If somewhere is significantly cheaper then be prepared to go to the garage, strap your engine to a crate/pallet and get a flatloader to collect your engine-less car and ferry it to the new garage and get a courier to collect the palleted engine (costs about £60-80) and take it to the new garage.

Be honest. If you turn to the garage and say that yes, you agree with them that the work needs doing but you can't afford it at their costs, however Skyline specialist XYZ will do it for £XXX cheaper, hence you are going to do the above.

You may find they drop their prices. If not f*ck 'em and take the car / engine to the other garage.

Flatbed truck - £100 (ish)
Courier for engine - £80 (ish)
A day off work to fart around getting the engine on the pallet etc. etc. - can save you £1,000+.

Never be a victim, even if it puts you out. Soooo many people rely on Joe Public taking the easy option ("yeah ok just do the work whilst the engine's out") and paying through the nose for the privilege.


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

also if you pay for all the bits to be replaced - Demand YOUR old parts back for inspection!


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

You can drive the car without turbos or with knackered ones if you have to. If you're not sure about the turbos and don't want to pay the prices they are charghing then get it put backtogether and take it somewhere else. It certainly seems the prices they have quoted you are way over the top.


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

ISJ said:


> also if you pay for all the bits to be replaced - Demand YOUR old parts back for inspection!


100% true - they're still yours whether they're broken or not! Then you can get them independantly checked and go back to the original garage with a letter from your solicitor telling them what you're going to do if you dont get a brand new set of HKS turbos for yout trouble


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

maybe it would be worthwhile for the people that aren't mechanics to do some form of course at a college or something,atleast they'll know some stuff then

forgot to add,this would help people that have no knowledge whatsoever at the moment.
Or it could be just a way for you to get some "experience" before you let yourself loose on your car.

Ony my civic,i've learnt as i've gone along,and i've also got a Mini that i'm going to teach myself bodywork on


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Good man!! 

A list of tuners labour rates would be a good idea and make it a sticky so people can decide who to use and who to avoid based on their wealth.


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

As im able to do pretty much everything myself, and have spent a lot of time sourcing parts that are not Skyline specific, I find its not to bad running the Skyline, And I certainly wouldnt charge anymore to service one than any other large 4WD.

Mark.


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## Pulse D (Mar 26, 2005)

ISJ said:


> My father owns a small car repair garage and prides itself on accurate, reliable, cheap, honest and friendly service to its customers.
> 
> the amount of cars we see that have come from main dealers that haven't been repaired / serviced correctly is quite frankly frightening !


My dad has owned a garage business for almost 25years that does everything from servicing to race car preparation.

He says the same thing regarding cars that have been serviced by a dealer during their warranty period. As you say, some things he see's are quite frightening too.


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

Wow reading that was a real eye opener - but still i would like a skyline, and i have been reading on this forum for like 2h noe and my eyes are crossed - lol
I have a very limited knowledge of a normal engine, let alona skyline one.
just want to check, seeing as were supposed to help each other out (not that i could do much except supply space to do things to a car) if someone ad a prblem with a car and has been quoted £xxx stupid amount for an oil change for example, would those of you who do the work yourselves be willing to show those of us who arent so mechanicaly minded how it is done (for a small price of course) so therefor aving us hughe bills in the future, and it helps build bonds etc.
I would like o think that if i had a skyline and broke down in the middle of a city, that i cold log onto here and that someone would be willing to help, maybe get the car back on the road to get it home.
do prople reckon this kind of thing is doable or is it just dreams?


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

I have seen plenty of main dealer problems too, This is the reason I will never buy a new car or ever go to the main dealer for anything unless its utterly unavoidable.

Mark.


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## sleepyfox (Jul 9, 2005)

You're not the only person thinking that a skyline is an unaffordable drain on your wallet. In the 6 months of ownership I've paid out over 4000 pounds and the car is still not 'sorted' (I am somewhat of a perfectionist).

I can't help but think that I'd be better off with an E30 M3 or an Intergra Type-R and spending my money on something else... :-(

Fox
---


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Yunis A said:


> Some of the quotes I got were shocking! I then remembered RK Tuning who were then based in Highgate (I used to drive past there on a daily bases to and from work) and he did some investigation work for me( car was severely low on power - dead afms) and had some steering slack (duff bush) and did the job at half the price of some other Tuners that gave me a quote.



Puppet.


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## RavenHeart (Feb 12, 2006)

Good idea cypher. It's not the Skyline that's a drain cos that's fun! It's everything else you gotta shell out for that brings no joy...


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

thats why i thought if people who know what there doing showed people who dont know, it wold save everyone what £1000s of pounds a year id imagine.
Basically id just like to knowif people would be willing to do this, because as much as id like a skyline, if it coss £1000 a month to run, i cant have one, but if with someone helping it would cost £200 a month (all ontop of fuel of course) then i would be much happier and feel alot safer in the knowledge that if someting was wrong, i could log on and see what other people think, as opposed to taking it to my garage, them not really knowing what is wrong and charging me £800 for an oil filter and fan belt for example.


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

Done something similar at my place, I rented out part of the garage to a chap to restore his VW, He did a lot of the work and I just did the tricky stuff and advised him on the work he was doing, I would love to set up a place with a few lifts and equipment in and allow people to rent them and show them how to go on, right now my garage is too small for such things.

Its a bit more tricky to try and explain how to do certain things online, some jobs you just need to be hands on, but I try and help out where I can, But I have noticed that there has never really been much call on this forum for general routine spanner work, like changing discs or other maintainance jobs.

Mark.


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

well i have a garage with a drive on hydrolic (spelling!!) lift, so no matter how low your car is, it will fit on., andlots of other space as i live in the middle of know where.
its good having it, but when i havent got a clue how to chang ea disc its useless.
what im aying is i would be willing to travel to some if they would show me how to do something.
perhaps there could be a space where people can write simple 'how to' on like changing oil, discs, pads, and even advanced stuff with pictures, to help people like me do these simple jobs?

oops just noticed there is a secion for that, but still even the simple stuff could do with explaning.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Yunis*



Yunis A said:


> Good man!!
> 
> A list of tuners labour rates would be a good idea and make it a sticky so people can decide who to use and who to avoid based on their wealth.


What are you on about,"on their wealth". How do you justify that remark?

Yes I agree that Mark and I may look wealthy but that is not so.True we have between us an R31, several R32,s including a v spec and project X,a 33GTS, a GB 33GTR a 34 GTR. A Miata /Eunos(slightly modified).A CB1300, a KTM superduke and an Aprillia Mille.And of course a 2 door Cossy. Forgot the 350Z and the supercharged EP3!

That is because we are out and out petrol heads and enthusiasts, nothing to do with wealth.

I live in a modest house and dont go abroad on holiday!

I also open up in the morning at 7.30 and lock up in the evening at usually about 6.30.I work reasonably hard,
like building 28 engines last year!
I have probably 1/2 a million ,and more importantly 40 yrs of hard graft ,invested in my business.
But I do resent W...kers like you insinuating that I make my money by "ripping off" the likes of you.

Sarcastic "Old B..stard Tony


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

Hmmmmmm, Interesting Idea, As long as its kept simple, but where do you draw the line, are you talking about routine servicing and replacing wearable items ? I reckon the following would most likely be usefull without getting too far into things.

1. Disc and pad swap (Front)
2. Disc/pad swap and handbrake check/adjust (Rear)
3. Spark Plug swap
4. Oil + Filter change
5. Gearbox + Diff Oil check/change

I could write up on all these jobs for the R33 GTSt, somebody else would have to cater for the rest but im sure they are very similar across all models.

Mark.


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

Thats what mean, also as thats the car i am considering, even better.
But then, if someone needs a spacific thing, then they could post, someone would hopefully reply and then once its done post that in the 'how to' section, eventually you would build up a huge database of things and save everyone money.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

cypher said:


> them not really knowing what is wrong and charging me £800 for an oil filter and fan belt for example.



Ffs, what a load of utter pish you talk, where is the relevance or even close to a factual comment in that above drivel, twat. You know what I am fed up with, not rip off garages but stupid twits like you that have no comprehension of what it takes to do a job well.

Would you like to explain to me where you get such an inflated figure as £800 for an oil and filter change and a fan belt from?

Simple fact is you dont, but that doesnt stop idots like you sitting with your mates around a table at a pub saying "oh my mechanic charged me £800 for an oil change and a fan belt" when in fact you would be lucky to be charged £80.

Thats the problem, you talk shite and unfortuantly the one thing car owners wish to talk utter crap about is there garages, or how they saved "£200 by doing it themselves" even though it took them a full sat and sunday to do it and it still aint right.

News for you sunshine, mechanics feed there children and familys by getting paid by the hour, same as everybody else, expecting them to do it for naff all "just cos its cool to work on cars" is utterly stupid.

Actually i think being a lawyer is pretty cool, they should do that for £25 an hour, programing a PC, that looks cool, better make that £20 an hour.

Simple fact mechanics are the LOWEST paid of all trades people with the highest technical skill and highest overheads, bottom rung of the ladder when compared to joiners, electricians, brickies and plumbers.... rip of, too right mechanics are getting ripped off left right and center simply because they do like to work on cars.

£800 ... ffs, think about what you are saying.

Want to know why a garage rips people off, simple, they dont quote you enough in the first place, they dont charge enough and then go to pay there bills and they realise the havnt made any money.

Want my advise, go to a garage that knows what its doing and charges a decent hourly rate, that way they wont get half way through a job and go "ohh shit this is going to take twice as long as we expected and we arnt going to make any money ... quick fanny it up and get it out the door"

Why do you think dealerships are so crap, they are alloted a set amount of time to do a job and the mechs are given bonuses to complete those jobs on target .... simple fact is working on cars very seldom goes to plan, the mechs are underpaid, undermotivated and dont give a shit ... job aint finished .. **** it, fanny it up and get it out the door.


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## s2gtr (Jun 30, 2001)

> I also open up in the morning at 7.30 and lock up in the evening at usually about 6.30.I work reasonably hard,
> like building 28 engines last year!
> I have probably 1/2 a million ,and more importantly 40 yrs of hard graft ,invested in my business.
> But I do resent W...kers like you insinuating that I make my money by "ripping off" the likes of you.


And come out on Sunday evening & help people like me with self inflicted problems!

And has your local garage invested in a Dynopack or Nissan consult? In my opinion you get what you pay for 

It's not always about money eh 

Dave.


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## stu0x (Jun 30, 2002)

...and breathe


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

wow i dont wanna start fights and things.
and im not saying that all garages do that,iv been messd about by garages, like everyone has, like when you say 'tell me whats wrong but ring me and let me know how much its gonna cost so i can let you know wether or not to do the work' then they do the work and stick a £450 in your hand when you go to fetch your car, and to be truthful, i havent got the faintest how much it costs to change the oil filter and fan belt on a skyline, i had a feeling that it wasnt £800, i was just making an example.
But then if people did a 'how to' on it then that would be £80 less you would have to dish out that month.
thats all im trying to say, sorry if i annoyed you somehow.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

cypher said:


> Wow reading that was a real eye opener - but still i would like a skyline, and i have been reading on this forum for like 2h noe and my eyes are crossed - lol
> I have a very limited knowledge of a normal engine, let alona skyline one.
> just want to check, seeing as were supposed to help each other out (not that i could do much except supply space to do things to a car) if someone ad a prblem with a car and has been quoted £xxx stupid amount for an oil change for example, would those of you who do the work yourselves be willing to show those of us who arent so mechanicaly minded how it is done (for a small price of course) so therefor aving us hughe bills in the future, and it helps build bonds etc.
> I would like o think that if i had a skyline and broke down in the middle of a city, that i cold log onto here and that someone would be willing to help, maybe get the car back on the road to get it home.
> do prople reckon this kind of thing is doable or is it just dreams?


its a tough world out there and very rarely do people do something for nothing..

but yeah I have helped a few people on other forums do various bits and peices at the same time saving a few quid.. its what being part of a forum community is about. help and share knoweledge.


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

its good there are some people who agree with me, iv seen alot of bickeing so far. only been a memeber for about 3h's or so.
Its just something iv done on other forums, and i think, if everyhting is expensive then it is needed with these cars, aslong as everyone knows that if they do the work themselves, its their fault its gone wrong.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

tonysoprano said:


> What are you on about,"on their wealth". How do you justify that remark?
> 
> Yes I agree that Mark and I may look wealthy but that is not so.True we have between us an R31, several R32,s including a v spec and project X,a 33GTS, a GB 33GTR a 34 GTR. A Miata /Eunos(slightly modified).A CB1300, a KTM superduke and an Aprillia Mille.And of course a 2 door Cossy. Forgot the 350Z and the supercharged EP3!
> 
> ...



Have you become Tony the Tiger today?? lol I wondered how long it would be before you replied

You are a hard worker indeed and have built up a great business!! Bravo and lot of respect for your achievements!


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

What i think Yunis is trying to say is that some people can afford to pay that bit more than others.

Can't remember what mag it was,but wasn't there a guy that does a Taxi service on weekends so he can afford to run his Skyline!!

I think there should be an online sticky,telling you how to do the usual "checks",and also a list of all the Tuners that can work on GTR's/GTS's etc,but without labour prices etc,that can be up to the owner of the Skyline to do what they wish with their money,they worked hard for it(well some "may" have),so why not just let them do what they want with it.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Some of these things have been done. There were run throughs of some basic stuff available as PDFs on the old site. There were links to all the tuner's websites etc. No doubt these will reappear on the new members only site when it's up and running. Technical info and other assorted articles are printed in issues of Sky Lines.

Guess you guys should join the GTROC really.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Crail Loser said:


> Ffs, what a load of utter pish you talk, where is the relevance or even close to a factual comment in that above drivel, twat. You know what I am fed up with, not rip off garages but stupid twits like you that have no comprehension of what it takes to do a job well.
> 
> Would you like to explain to me where you get such an inflated figure as £800 for an oil and filter change and a fan belt from?
> 
> ...


You are in the garage business so you are bound to take a different view. 90% of the garages I have been to have either bodged a repair or damaged something else in the process. 

These said garages or tuners have had good reputations and based on that I trusted them with the work. To fix their **** ups have cost me a great deal of time and money, hence why I prefer to do a lot of the stuff myself even if it mean my car is off the road for a good deal of time, but atleast I would do it right.

I am a perfectionist so if I trust someone to do the job I expect 100%, not 50or 80%. 

Yeah you have just admitted why garages rip off people, so its conclusive that garages DO rip off their customers..

BTW, you can call me a tight bastard or what ever, but this is my view and I intend to stick to it!


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

moleman said:


> Some of these things have been done. There were run throughs of some basic stuff available as PDFs on the old site. There were links to all the tuner's websites etc. No doubt these will reappear on the new members only site when it's up and running. Technical info and other assorted articles are printed in issues of Sky Lines.
> 
> Guess you guys should join the GTROC really.


Well I hope my R32 >R34 brake conversion thread helps someone save some money

But I do think its a good idea that when people (who are willing to help others) do basic or not so basic things on their car that they take pictures and do a write up.. I mean its what car forums are about sharing ideas and helping one another.


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

Yunis A said:


> Well I hope my R32 >R34 brake conversion thread helps someone save some money
> 
> But I do think its a good idea that when people (who are willing to help others) do basic or not so basic things on their car that they take pictures and do a write up.. I mean its what car forums are about sharing ideas and helping one another.



Thats exactly what i was hoping for, and on the some people are richer than others, in my opinion, it doesnt matter how much money you have id imagine tht £80 is £80 at the end of the day, and if thats not spent on the car it can go towards another mod.
But i agree with having it as a sticky, becaus i know all ther stuff is there, bt there are loads of diferent links on different items, it all gets confusing, so if there was on conclusive 'hot to' for things it would make everyones life easier.


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## Jabberwock (Jun 24, 2003)

Yes I agree that Mark and I may look wealthy but that is not so.

  :


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

Buy a niche car your in a niche market when it comes time to repair!!!

I have often wondered where people get off talking bad about the folks who offer parts at or near Japanese prices (Nengun/Greenline for example) like they are lesser products.

I believe there are alot of folks here that can afford to go top shelf...but I'd bet there are alot more that would just as soon have a comparable part...even if it is lacking the disigner name.

As for garages upping their price because they missed the mark on the estimate...stuff em, if they cant get a close diagnosis then I dont want em working on my car!


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> Yeah you have just admitted why garages rip off people, so its conclusive that garages DO rip off their customers..


Again you show your ignorance and bias, what was said that if you take your vehicle to a garage with little knowledge and pay them poorly the chances are they will not do the job correctly.

Again I tried to explain that mechanics like anybody get paid by the hour for what they do ... actually Yunis you still havnt replyed to my question wasking what it is you do for a job ... by your own admission it takes you a long time to get the job right and that you demand 100%

If thats the case then you should be prepared to pay a mechanic for the same amount of time it takes you to do the job to achieve the same 100% result.

Thats what you are buying, its an exchange of time and if you choose the right garage, knowledge and experiance. We dont have magic wands that we wave over a rusted nut and it suddenly drop off .... its the same rusted nut just hopefully we have learned a better way to deal with it.

Some of us take great pride in our work Yunis but we are always held back by financial and time constraints, I would think most every mechanic would love to be able to just take his time and do the job to his 100% satisfaction but that is very seldom allowed by the customer due to the costs involved.

I dont get my rent/rates/bills for nothing, because I have quoted you 4 hours to do the job and its taken 5 ... that hour costs me money, I dont get it for nothing, if I dont charge you for it its not that I didnt gain anything, the fact is it has taken money away from me.

Typical example, this is just from yesterday, service a Subaru, fresh import. Job is booked out at 1.6hrs for the service as it requires sparkplugs as well. Service shows that vehicle requires front pads, we have EBC red stuff in stock, customer is advised and estimated at 0.8 hours to fit.

Only one problem ... Rays alloys with Rays alloy wheel nuts including lock nut, 15 mins spent searching vehicle .. no key.

Phone call to customer 5 mins ..... no idea where key is not supplied with vehicle.

Time taken to remove locking wheel nuts paying very close attention not to mark his wheels .... 40mins.

So Yunis .... do I charge him or dont I ?

Its taken me almost a complete hour to do the job onto of what I have quoted him ... and as we have discussed that hour cost me money .. its not my fault he doesnt have a locking wheel nut key .. not his either. What do I do Yunis .... would you charge him?

I think you will find that most garages drop a lot of hours in a week, tell you what, next time you work on your car time how many hours it takes you, from the moment that you walk out to it to the time it drives out 100% and you tell me if garages are expensive or not 

As I said some of us take a lot of pride in what we do ... personally and frankly slightly bizzare I have just had to sit my apprenticeship all over again  so I can go onto try and attain a new "highest standard" that has been set for mechanics/garage owners. Unfortunatly at the age of 38 I am so old now that my original apprenticeship and even my o'grades and highers no longer count !!! I dont mind, kinda enjoying it to be honest.

Point is Yunis I do not take kindly to people just dismissing my proffesion as a bunch of robbing gits, we are not all like that, many of us are simply enthusiasts who have decided to make there passion there life. Unfortunatly after a while you realise that liking something doesnt pay the bills. I would gladly have you come up here and spend a week in my employ so you could see actually what does go on in a garage ... I think it would open your eyes quite a bit .... and you might even learn something


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

psd1 said:


> As for garages upping their price because they missed the mark on the estimate...stuff em, if they cant get a close diagnosis then I dont want em working on my car!


So the fact that guy never had a locking wheel nut key is my fault is it ?

So if I go to a job and it has a rounded bolt or a bad repair that i have to fix thats my fault as well?

If you come in for a blown head gasket and I inspect your turbos and suggest they are worn thats my fault as well? The fact that they have been on the car for years is dismissable is it ... suddenly because I have removed them to access your head gasket 5 years of wear have been transmitted from my fingers to the turbos?

You know whats wrong with garages, idiot customers like you, if you dont trust a garage to do the job right, dont go there, if you dont want to let them do there job and tell you the truth, dont go there.

Simple fact is that even if I spent 4 hours with leakdown testers and diagnostic equipment I could no accertain what I could with a strip down. So you are suggesting to get a correct diagnostic I should strip down the job, inspect it, put it back together and then quote you?

Of course you would be happy to pay for the hours it would take to do that as well.

You have just created the situation that will get you ripped off in a garage, if someone quotes you work and then dismantles it and finds further work that requires doing and you attitude is "not my fault stuff em" what do you honestly think is going to happen?

Do you think they are going to reapair it to the correct standard free of charge ... seriously ... is that what you think ....

You have every right to ask why other work is required and every right to see the proof but at the end of the day if something else is broken/worn or would be more economic replace at this time than later .... do you honestly believe thats the garages fault.

You will end up with the Quickfit scenario where you would come in for a set of brake pads and they would change every componant in the braking system par for the course .... why? ... well blatant profit mongering to be frank but also so that you couldnt come back a week later and say "here, my cars 15 years old and the braking system is tired, you replace a rear wheel cylinder and bled the brakes and now due to the increase in fluid presssure its now popped the seals on the other wheel cylinder and the masters on its way out as well"

Thats not the garages fault for fixing a wheel cylinder, its the fact the cars old ... its the typical "dammed if you do dammed if you dont scenario"

You price one wheel cylinder ... job is cheap customer is happy but then comes back unhappy and expects you to cahnge his full braking system for nothing

You price it all, you know its going to go out the door 100% (just like Yunis likes it) but your a robbing bastard for charging so much to change a wheel cylinder.

Cant win can you?


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Crail Loser*

Mark

I totally agree with what you have to say.

Tony


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

Crail Loser said:


> So the fact that guy never had a locking wheel nut key is my fault is it ?
> 
> So if I go to a job and it has a rounded bolt or a bad repair that i have to fix thats my fault as well?
> 
> ...


Yop...I'm an idiot!   

If the guy doesnt have the key to a locking wheel nut it ISNT your fault...but...believe it or not, locking wheel nuts arent really uncommon these days. I would think it might be standard practice to have them in hand before the customer departs...is this too much to ask? 

Obviously your very energetic about this subject as you have plenty to say. I think we need to keep in mind where this post started and the conditions regarding the initial posters complaints. NO ONE said that all garages are rip-offs. 

Bottom line is that a good reputation is hard to earn...where a bad one is very easy...


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## Viffer (Oct 21, 2005)

My two pence worth, I've yet to come across a main dealership I'd trust, on the occasions I've bought new I only used main dealers to maintain the warantee validity. Find a good garage, there are one or two about, stick with it and remember we are all fallible.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

psd1 said:


> Yop...I'm an idiot!
> 
> If the guy doesnt have the key to a locking wheel nut it ISNT your fault...but...believe it or not, locking wheel nuts arent really uncommon these days. I would think it might be standard practice to have them in hand before the customer departs...is this too much to ask? ...


I am sorry, what is it you are suggesting here, it would be standard practise to have what in hand before the customer departs? 




psd1 said:


> Obviously your very energetic about this subject as you have plenty to say. I think we need to keep in mind where this post started and the conditions regarding the initial posters complaints. NO ONE said that all garages are rip-offs.
> 
> Bottom line is that a good reputation is hard to earn...where a bad one is very easy...


Actually yes Yunis did infact say that all garages are rip offs hence the reply and yes it does take and excedingly long time to build a good reputation ... its why I dont care to see peoples reputations rubbised so lightly by comments such as "£800 for an oil change and a fan belt".

I mean imagine for one second, there you are in a pub with a few mates having a jar wondering if the chick at the bar will be impressed with the fact that you have a Skyline key in your pocket or that your nick name is a rifle when in stoats Yunis and Cypher.

"Alreet weesacs" the conversation may start before Yunis wanders off into tales of how all garages are rip offs and Cypher ... between noticing glitches in the mainframe ... tells you how he was charged £800 for an oil filter and fan belt change.

Kinda put you off really buying a Skyline or going to a garage if names were mentioned .... and at the end of the day it would be unfactual and personal opinion.

Fact is as you say its hard to get a good rep and easy to get a bad one ... reason being above ... people like to exagerate the facts but rarely from a good point, always for the worst ... its human nature to trash a subject and ever popular is the "garage or mechanic".

Which is a shame, because most mechanics are no different from you guys, they love cars and thats why they do the job they do .... unfortuantly though after years of trying to help people and having it flung back in there face many of them are jaded and now hate the cars they once loved 

Chances are the mechanics still in his garage trying to fix problems and not getting paid for it while you guys are in the pub saying what a robbin git he is .... thanks.

Dont be offended by what I have said thats not my intent, I was actually trying to be humerous about it. I love my job as a mechanic but I may well leave it soon .... simply because I cannot afford to run my buisness anymore and I can get paid much more and get a lot less hassle working for someone else, fact is I may leave to become a social worker and work with kids who parents are junkies.

So to hear something I care deaply about trashed so easly then yes, I have got a lot to say about it.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Viffer said:


> My two pence worth, I've yet to come across a main dealership I'd trust, on the occasions I've bought new I only used main dealers to maintain the warantee validity. Find a good garage, there are one or two about, stick with it and remember we are all fallible.



Since 1992 all manufactors warranties can be kept if serviced by an independant as long as O/E parts are used and O/E service scheduals are used


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## Viffer (Oct 21, 2005)

Now why didn't I know that.  I could have saved not just the money but the fear that things wern't getting done proper. Cheers matey.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Viffer said:


> Now why didn't I know that.  I could have saved not just the money but the fear that things wern't getting done proper. Cheers matey.


No problem .... obviously dealerships are not keen to tell you that for some reason


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## psd1 (May 15, 2004)

Crail Loser said:


> I am sorry, what is it you are suggesting here, it would be standard practise to have what in hand before the customer departs?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, I would think that if a mechanic needed to remove a wheel as part of a service contract it should be mentioned before the customer leaves that they Wheel key is necessary.

My bad on the"all garages being a rip-off" Obviously not all garages are bad, that's a very broad generalization. And rarely the truth!

If someone wants to brag abut how much they paid for service I have to wonder abut them personally. I would think that someone would rather speak of the awesome service at a reasonable rate they got...I know I would. As a paying customer I will quickly praise...as well as question good service!!!

Cheers!


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

psd1 said:


> Yes, I would think that if a mechanic needed to remove a wheel as part of a service contract it should be mentioned before the customer leaves that they Wheel key is necessary.



Alas that were not the situation, vehicle was a new car to us and owner and like most owners he wished any extra work ... such as the low pad wear in this case ... to be rectified on that day. He had no locking wheel nut anyway and I feel that his chances of locating/ordering/supplying the correct one for the vehicle was very low. 

The garage that sold him the vehicle should have supplied it with the vehicle or at least notified the customer that it was missing but alas that was not the hand we were delt and because of this we did not charge him for the extra time it took to remove them.

When a vehicle is presented at a garage you are quite correct, it should be done so with the appropriate security keys to allow the garage to do there job.

Actually its always a good way of checking when you take your car in for a service if they have had the wheels off or not  I may also point out that it is not always necisarry for the wheels to be removed to check brake wear. Obviously if you are charged for a brake inspection where the calipers should be stripped and inspected then yes the wheel will require to be removed.

Other than that, thank you PSD for your reply, it was appreciated and its nice to know that you would be willing to comment on good work recieved.


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

*off topic.....or maybe not?;-)*

Whats happened to the original guy who posted and whats the outcome? Is he being ripped for work thats not necessary or does he still not know? Kind of got lost reading the thread.
CrailLoser, you are on a hiding to nothing here i feel. No matter how wealthy people are, nobody likes parting with cash, simple as that. Most people will happily pay for work on their car, get it back in A1 condition or better than it was ie performance enhancements , then when the dust settles and the excitement is over, start to perhaps regret having spent so much and question every aspect of where the money went and of course, as the mechanic making a living in this way, you will be the first port of call for interogation. Of course you are meant to work for nothing and fix cars at a loss, didn`t you know that?lol ;-)
My advice to anyone would be to make sure the money they are spending is spare cash so that there are no regrets afterwards. As you have rightly said along with many others, it isn`t fair however when you pay for shoddy work , everyone has the right to winge or complain when that happens. I also appreciate that its human nature to make mistakes and not every job could possibly be perfect every time but a healthy discussion with any company or service provider ,will i am sure, resolve the issue without bitching. There are the odd few that simply give every garage / tuner etc a bad name by constantly annoying its customers but at the end of the day, you vote with your feet and advise others accordingly.


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## Doug S (Oct 9, 2004)

Crail Loser said:


> So the fact that guy never had a locking wheel nut key is my fault is it ?
> 
> So if I go to a job and it has a rounded bolt or a bad repair that i have to fix thats my fault as well?
> 
> ...


Couldnt agree with you more Marc.

I think it's a sad fact that all garages are tarred with the same brush. Just like in any trade there are the unscrupulous ones but there are many genuine garages like yours, who I have fully faith and trust in. Some customers dont take the time or have the mechanical knowledge to understand how a garage operates or why certain decisions are made when carrying out work on a vehicle. Its allways easier to shout there mouths off about how the have been ripped off.

I for one try to avoid undertaking any jobs on other peoples cars bar close mates as if there is extra work required or an unrelated problem surfaces its easy to create alot of friction and who would get the blame....me.

In my line of work I know all too well how a five minute job can turn into a nightmare with unseen factors, and trying to explain this to someone else who are demanding a pump or engine back online can be like banging your head against a brick wall.

I hope your not seriously leaving the trade as it would be a great loss to the performance car scene in Scotland and the UK.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Jason abz said:


> Of course you are meant to work for nothing and fix cars at a loss, didn`t you know that?lol ;-)
> QUOTE]
> 
> Ach bugger ... I knew I was doing something wrong
> ...


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

I have to say on the whole I'm in total agreement with Crail Loser.

I've done a lot of work on both of mine myself, rarely does anything go to plan. It certainly makes you appreciate why garages charge what they do and how difficult/unpleasant some of these jobs are. It's very easy to think, oh that's just a couple of hours labour when you're just shelling out, it really sells short the actual labour involved/scraped knuckles/Skill required/broken tools/bastard cars, shite previous workmanship, all sorts.

I also empathise with Yunis about paying garage rates and not getting the standard of quality or sustaining damage while at the garage which then costs money to put right. I've been at the receiving end of this many many times in the past and its one of the reasons why I tend to do much of the work myself, unfortunatey in my case, it all comes down to time now and I find that I simply don't have a day to spend in the garage.

My take is that rarely will anyone else take as much care over your car as you will yourself. If I feel I can do the job better myself I generally do it myself, if I don't then I'll take it to someone who can and there are many jobs that I don't have the necessary knowledge/skill or experience, which I'll leave to the pros. Hence why my car is at Abbeys now. 

I know you feel they're expensive Yunis, but of all the garages I've been to, they have always been very good with my car and the customer service has been extremely good going over and above the call of duty many a time. The scope of work/capablity that they have is also endless in terms of being able to tackle virtually any job you ask of them. Since I spend a fair bit of time working on the car you can see the workmanship carried out and I've yet to fault Abbey on their work, which is much more than can be said for others. I think a large part of the cost of the bill is in the unregulated parts prices as there is no official parts network for GTR's. Of course its cheaper to buy them from Japan without paying all the taxes, but its illegal and not something a legitimate garage can do. 

I've just taken the box out of my 32 and the last people to touch it did an awful job, the removal took a great deal longer than it should have done down to poor workmanship and there are examples of this all over the car which I've been having to put right, including various damaged parts including knackered clutch cover where the spline appeared to be sat on the cluch cover forks at some point bending them, doing every bolt up with air guns, wrong size flywheel bolts, overtightened with stripped threads the list is endless. 

The work was done by a tuner that doesn't post on this site but gets mentioned on here from time to time generally positively. My 34 had work done on it by another well known tuner and sustained lots of careless damage and poor workmanship, again, generally nothing but praise for them but my experience was different, a lot I guess comes down to who is working for them at the time, a garage is only as good as its mechanics. Presently I think Abbey have a very good team. If you use the same garage regularly, at least you have more of a comeback if there is a resulting issue from something which they were the last to touch. 

Trying to work on a car that has been poorly worked on previously is a nightmare. It's the same thing with dodgy wiring, again my 32 has had a terrible job done in certain areas which I'm in the process of putting right. 

Some garages keep reusing the same nuts./bolts etc even when they are already suspectedly rounded off, makes it a pig for the next person. New bolts, fittings etc that a decent garage will fit soon adds to the cost of sundries. When doing my engine I couldn't believe how much more it was costing me in sundries for odd bolts/fittings/gaskets/fluids etc that I hadn't taken into account. And then of course there's the dreaded vat on everything which is the big killer!

Rgds
Nito


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Thanks for that Doug its much appreciated  

Anyway, my last post on the subject and lets try and get it back on track  , for the original starter of the thread I am sorry for the hijack. Honestly there are lots of options open for you and frankly I found your initial post harrowing and am stunned at just whats its cost to keep your car on the road.

However I dont know the car and despite how unlikley it seems that you could require all this work its not impossible so I cannot comment.

Ceratinly there are always other avenues open for you, some very close to where your vehicle is now, who can offer advise and an opinion on what work is required and prices on such work 

Everybody is accountable at the end of the day, if you dont have 100% commitment in your garages ability then put them to the test and if they fail then you know you were right, if they pass ... then let them do there job


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## ISJ (Mar 11, 2005)

I'd just like to share this:

Our front drive is too small, so we have a small area 6m x 4m which is covered in poor quality turf - so we think gravel it and cars can pack on there if needs, we're not posh and don't mind to much the looks of it 

So we phone up a local "Landscape Gardener" for a quote to remove the turf, lay a liner and gravel the plot.

So quote comes through, to do all the above and reset the edging stone (apparently they have 'moved' and need to be reset )
He needs 3 days & 4 ton of gravel (!?!)

£255.00 Labour
£410.00 Mats

Total £781 ish

All that to pull up some grass, stamp the ground down a bit, lay some plastic sheet and tip bags of gravel on the front FFS i ask you.


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

*to be honest.........*

I have just done something similar and to be honest, with a special cash deal from the local quarry, i was still £120 per tonne of gravel so i don`t think you are being ripped on materials, thats for sure. To ask someone to work onsite for £255 is also not out of the question more a matter of perspective.
jas


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

i just got 2 quotes for an alarm on my new shop (yay!)

one came back for £1200

the other for £1750

and the £1200 one was using better quality sensors and a full years redcare.

and BOTH are local, reputable companies.

I even took the higher quote into the lower quote firm, to make them check they had not missed somethng.

eveyones out to make a fast buck these days

apart from me 

mook


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## cypher (Mar 23, 2006)

ISJ said:


> I'd just like to share this:
> 
> Our front drive is too small, so we have a small area 6m x 4m which is covered in poor quality turf - so we think gravel it and cars can pack on there if needs, we're not posh and don't mind to much the looks of it
> 
> ...


Mate, one of my business is a decorative concrete business, you could either hire a digger and have fun, then do the work for yourself, no more than £400 t most, but for the ease and convinience you can pay them, it supto you really, you wont need hardcore really do what - 

max £60 per day or a digger ~(althought you only will need a 1 and half tonne)
£20 for some viscreen to stop weeds
£100 for 4 tonnes of gravel prob excl delivery
if yo want edges there prob between £1 - £8 each piece, depends on what you want.


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## M.Wong (Aug 14, 2005)

I think abbey should lower their rates, I called them up and they quoted 600 pounds to change the clutch on my r32 gtr

this is only for labour...

I got it done for 350, it working just brilliantly


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

....


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

Simply ask what the vehicle failed its MOT for and have it completed. The other work is a side issue that can be remedied later at less cost. All (most)main garages now carry out what they term as a 'Health-Check' put simply the mechanic is instructed to inspect the vehicle at over 70 points and report any, and i mean any faults found. The lovely 'Service Advisor' then calls you to give you the news and sticks it up you. I know


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## s2gtr (Jun 30, 2001)

> I think abbey should lower their rates, I called them up and they quoted 600 pounds to change the clutch on my r32 gtr
> 
> this is only for labour...
> 
> I got it done for 350, it working just brilliantly


Interesting web address in your profile, nothing to do with your post I trust 

Dave.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> Crail Looser, my main point here is the rates are just too high im talking labour rates greater than 45p/h! certainly like everything in life you have some good some bad.. 5% of garages do a decent honest job...
> 
> Mechanics should be regulated and have to be registered in the way you get corgi registration. That would certainly cut out the muppets and amateurs who decide to open a garage overnight


My whole point Yunis is that £45/hour is too low .... thats why you are getting such a crap job done .... £45/hour is a joke this day and age ... take of your overheads and you will be lucky if the garage will see £5 and hour profit from that ... not much incentive to "shine" is it.

Compare that to any other trade who are a minimum of £40-120/hour and with no overheads and you can see why there are no apprentices nor buisnessmen venturing into the motor trade.

Why do you think dealerships are 80-180/hour ? We all know they offer crap work and especially for minority cars you are taking your life in your hands going there but .... £80-120 / hour is what it takes to make money and profit at this job.

As for reglation, independant garages were told they would have to be licenced in an incentive started by dealerships 5 years ago. Independants welcomed the move and said it was long overdue and said not a problem but its only fair that the dealerships also have to do so ..... dealerships pulled the plug and scrapped the plan  

Personally I cant wait for regulation, and like the Corgi registared gas fitted that just analy plundered me for much wonga you can expect rates to rocket as soon as this happens and a distinction is made between those who can and those who think they can  

I mean seriously any buisness men on here, would you be in buisness for £5 an hour profit?


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## M.Wong (Aug 14, 2005)

I didn;t quite get you point, sorry ?

If u are talking about me being in London now and have another one on my profile its because I have relocated a week ago and i still haven;t changed.

If you want i give you the name for the peple that made the job for me


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Crail Loser said:


> My whole point Yunis is that £45/hour is too low


My mechanic has a garage, 3 workers, a £250,000 house and two cars and a new Merc van and charges £25/hour, £45/hour seems fair in England for a small operation, £80/hour for a dealership is fair as the overheads are huge but that's the price of the big land area, £80/hour for a small garage is a rip off. My brother worked in big dealerships (BMW/Merc etc) off and on for over 25 years and the profit earned in the garage keeps the showroom going.

The point is do you want to pay for that showroom at £80/hour or go to a race mechanic with his small building and small number of expert staff at £45/hour - not a hard choice really. The bigger the company the greater the hourly rate. 16 years ago my company charged BT over £130/hour for my time as a senior engineer, if we had a smaller operation we could have charged them £65/hour and made the same profit but that's business for yeh. If I had done it myself I would have charge them £10/hour in them days.


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## M.Wong (Aug 14, 2005)

By the way when I used to live in the north i used to go to probably one of the best garage RB Motors and I never had a problem, and the deal was always good for me..

Now in south west london surey area I got an Italian friend that is a genius on car and he just does the job for me for free because he loves car


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Just to let you know my *Tuner's labour rate is only £45 per hour*

Maybe that is why i can afford to run the fastest Jap car in the UK 

Keith:smokin:


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## M.Wong (Aug 14, 2005)

Exactly man !!!

45 is the right one it is not cheap but it is fear


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

I'm not going to let this thread descend into a "how much is too much for labour/parts/work" thread. You can't compare London prices with prices up north, for the same reason that houses are cheaper up north - so are garage labour rates. If you surveyed every single main dealership in the country you can guarantee that the rates would be higher in the London area. Higher rent/property translates directly to higher costs passed onto the customer, that's a fact of life.

Any further posts specifically mentioning individual tuners will be moderated. That also goes for any faux impartiality, we're not stupid.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Durzel said:


> You can't compare London prices with prices up north, for the same reason that houses are cheaper up north - so are garage labour rates.


Durzel

Houses in Aberdeen are not cheap thats for sure and the same goes for garage labour rates 

Keith:smokin:


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## GTR_Cymru (Jun 28, 2005)

I have just completed a tiling job for a customer (limestone floor, marble mosaic walls). It has taken me twice as long as I had anticipated, but at the end of the day you cannot simply charge the customer twice as much as your quotation. The price for the job is the price for the job, end of story.

You guys are lucky to be able to charge an hourly rate!

Consumer's don't really appreciate the work involved with natural stone tiling, and think it's no different to ceramic tiling - big mistake! I've seen some ceramic tilers have a go with natural stone and make a real pig's ear of it.

So, with regards to this thread, always use a known specialist, and also be prepared to pay that bit extra, it should prove to be money well spent. Definitely get a number of quotes, if you know exactly what needs doing!

Happy Skyline motoring


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*I think you*



M.Wong said:


> I think abbey should lower their rates, I called them up and they quoted 600 pounds to change the clutch on my r32 gtr
> 
> this is only for labour...
> 
> I got it done for 350, it working just brilliantly


Dont understand english.If you look on our website,www.abbeymotorsport.co.uk ,and look at the prices you will see that for a 32 an Exeedy uprated clutch is supplied and fitted for about £460 including vat. Where did you get the figure of £600 labour from.Please get your facts straight!!!!.

Tony


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Sorry*

I F..cked up .it is £490 inc.

Early in the morning!!

Tony


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

have a strong coffee uncle toney t...o much gin/vodka last night??


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## sleepyfox (Jul 9, 2005)

M.Wong said:


> I think abbey should lower their rates, I called them up and they quoted 600 pounds to change the clutch on my r32 gtr
> 
> this is only for labour...
> 
> I got it done for 350, it working just brilliantly


I don't think 600 is high, my quote was:

2 x drive plates £190-00 + vat each £380-00 + vat
Release bearing £18-55 + vat
Labour to fit £240-00 + vat
oil £12-00 + vat
Total incl VAT £764.40 inc vat

600 would have been bril!

Fox
---


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

sleepyfox said:


> I don't think 600 is high, my quote was:
> 
> 2 x drive plates £190-00 + vat each £380-00 + vat
> Release bearing £18-55 + vat
> ...


Read again - he said £600 for Labour only - your labour cost £240 only.


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## sleepyfox (Jul 9, 2005)

skyline69_uk said:


> Read again - he said £600 for Labour only - your labour cost £240 only.


Yep, you're quite right.

My quote was from Abbey too, so I'm wondering based on Tony's reply and my experience what the basis for Mr. Wong's 600 quid labour bill is?

Seems a bit odd...

Fox
---


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## M.Wong (Aug 14, 2005)

I dunno man !!!

Maybe they give differents rates to different people...

Probably you go there regularly while I don;t and most important you ae probably able to understand what job they will do, while I just want a good car to have fun and I don;t know really a lot about engine and thigs like that.

Does it make sense to you ?


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

I find it hard to believe that you would be quoted higher because you dont know much about cars, how would they know how much you know ? and how exactly would they get any new customers doing that ?

Mark.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Let Us All*

Engage ones brain shall we. Sleepy fox,s clutch was a twin plate in which only the two drive plates were replaced. A bit more work than with a standard clutch as the driven plates need to be deglazed and checked for true.

What i was disputing was M. Wongs saying that he was quoted £600 labour!

That looks like a bit of "Crail Losers" pub bar talk or a deliberate attempt to discredit my company.

All our common labour jobs are listed on labour fixed prices in our computer garage programme.

I dont care what you know,what creed you are, or how wealthy or poor you are you would not have been quoted £600 labour.

Tony


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

engage brains, click the link and read 
Abbey Motorsports Clutch prices
Plain and simple


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