# Stage 5



## 6jnc (Oct 10, 2014)

How is reliability on a stage 5 car? 

Is this power ok for everyday use and what figures could I see by going to stage 5

Had a look on YouTube and they look really quick!


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Not seen or heard of any issues on stage 5 cars. Guess if there were issues at that level without building the engines the tuners would stop selling. The torque on the OEM rods was the issue of old but now that can be capped i don't see any more reason to worry about reliability on a stage 5 car v any other lower states of tune.

Power wise most tuners indicating c750bhp.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

My old stage 5 which is not as powerful as more recent options but had 60lbft more torque did 2.65 to 60 and 5.56 to 100.

It was very quick. No reliability issues at all.


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

6jnc said:


> How is reliability on a stage 5 car?
> 
> Is this power ok for everyday use and what figures could I see by going to stage 5
> 
> Had a look on YouTube and they look really quick!


No probs what so ever with mine.

Its an everyday driver doing 8k a year.

Pushing 865/700..

T


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Tariq said:


> No probs what so ever with mine.
> 
> Its an everyday driver doing 8k a year.
> 
> ...


Your car's a beast with that Litchfield sport engine.

Still need a ride in it


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

AdnanK said:


> Your car's a beast with that Litchfield sport engine.
> 
> Still need a ride in it


Pick it up any time you like for a drive mate.

T


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Tariq said:


> No probs what so ever with mine.
> 
> Its an everyday driver doing 8k a year.
> 
> ...


I take it you have had the engine built with that torque?


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

Stevie76 said:


> I take it you have had the engine built with that torque?


Yup. Its capped 700 to avoid damaging the gearbox.

T


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Tariq said:


> Pick it up any time you like for a drive mate.
> 
> T


I don't have the balls.


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## 6jnc (Oct 10, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> My old stage 5 which is not as powerful as more recent options but had 60lbft more torque did 2.65 to 60 and 5.56 to 100.
> 
> It was very quick. No reliability issues at all.


SVM or litchfield? 

How much was the conversion


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Litchfield. 

About £15k at the time but did intercooler, fuel pumps and gearbox mods st the same time.

There are cheaper intercooler options now, and the turbo kit Litchfield now offers is MUCH better than it was then.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

No reliability issues on my Litchfield stage 5, mine made 807bhp 699.5lb of torque on Litchfields maha dyno ran 10.3 at the pod with emense spin. Absolutely fine as an everyday drive and pretty decent on fuel consumption and personally I'd go to Litchfields purely because I've seen and heard of a lot more SVM moded cars failing and I think that's because Litchfields map the cars a bit safer and dont peak the power.


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## Huzzy1 (Aug 4, 2015)

Why am I reading this thinking I could justify the £15k to the misses for a Stage 5?????


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Takamo can I ask which 'svm' cars you hear about failing at stage 5?

Your car is on a standard engine and most would consider it to be a ticking ticking time bomb. at those figures. The figures are manipulated IMO (not knocking your car) and the same could be said about other tuners across the board, regarding failures.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

TABZ said:


> Takamo can I ask which 'svm' cars you hear about failing at stage 5?
> 
> Your car is on a standard engine and most would consider it to be a ticking ticking time bomb. at those figures. The figures are manipulated IMO (not knocking your car) and the same could be said about other tuners across the board, regarding failures.


I'm not only referring to stage 5 cars from svm I'm talking about general across the stages, I've spoken to a few guys at the pod who had svm moded cars and they had engine issues over time. My cars performance speaks for itself regardless of the manipulated dyno figures according to you. Litchfield has done my last three gtr's and they have most been impressive and I have never had any engine or gearbox problems, my car made over 830bhp over 700lb of torque at Litchfields and iain insisted that in order to keep my car safe that we turn the power and torque down to what it is now and personally I feel that Iain knows a lot more than me or you or anyone else that I know about the gtr. So going by that I'm happy to stick with Litchfields and iains advice.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Takamo said:


> No reliability issues on my Litchfield stage 5, mine made 807bhp 699.5lb of torque on Litchfields maha dyno ran 10.3 at the pod with emense spin. Absolutely fine as an everyday drive and pretty decent on fuel consumption and personally I'd go to Litchfields purely because I've seen and heard of a lot more SVM moded cars failing and I think that's because Litchfields map the cars a bit safer and dont peak the power.


Take it you've had the rods done?

Edit - Read your last post, so it's not running 700 lbft torque anymore.


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Takamo said:


> I'm not only referring to stage 5 cars from svm I'm talking about general across the stages, I've spoken to a few guys at the pod who had svm moded cars and they had engine issues over time. My cars performance speaks for itself regardless of the manipulated dyno figures according to you. Litchfield has done my last three gtr's and they have most been impressive and I have never had any engine or gearbox problems, my car made over 830bhp over 700lb of torque at Litchfields and iain insisted that in order to keep my car safe that we turn the power and torque down to what it is now and personally I feel that Iain knows a lot more than me or you or anyone else that I know about the gtr. So going by that I'm happy to stick with Litchfields and iains advice.



Whilst I understand you preferring litcho as your choice of tuner (that was never my question) I find it odd and quite telling you would base your choice on others supposed failures, knowing full well your car has not been as smooth sailing as you make out. 
Now I'm a fan of your car and it's cababilities but at least be fair and balanced when given an opinion.

To make such a sweeping statement (especially considering you have no dealings with Svm) is damaging and shows you up in bad light, you should know better given the issues and concerns you've had with your own car. Although nothing sinister, they certainly could have been. Your post regarding an Msl Dyno plot brought about a common argument against your car/spec to the point Ian came on to qoute as to why your car (not other litcho customers) was going to be warranted despite it producing 'figures' (incidentally turned down) which previously were deemed dangerous. Hence not exactly the same car you purchased but so long as you're happy.

Let's apply your logic. Last year at the pod I spoke to 3 disgrunted litcho car owners, one poor fella had spent a fortune on a 1000bjp build that failed in drastic style, another purchased litcho 
car that failed to perform or do what was promised and the 3rd just sounded like he was jumping on the bandwagon and got told that on the day. 
Now does that warrant me making a sweeping generalisation based on chit chat and what I class as pub talk against litcho on a public forum?

I honestly think some of these Chinese whispers and forum fanboy mentality do the tuners no favours. It's a shame as they all have a lot to offer.

No offence intended by the way, you know I love ya really, just be fair when giving an opinion or analysis.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

AdnanK said:


> Take it you've had the rods done?
> 
> Edit - Read your last post, so it's not running 700 lbft torque anymore.


No rods are stock, I don't do track days at all not my thing, I drive it as a daily driver when the weather is dry and to be fair I drive it very sensible in general. I leave it to iains setset up


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Takamo said:


> No reliability issues on my Litchfield stage 5, mine made 807bhp 699.5lb of torque on Litchfields maha dyno ran 10.3 at the pod with emense spin. Absolutely fine as an everyday drive and pretty decent on fuel consumption and personally I'd go to Litchfields purely because I've seen and heard of a lot more SVM moded cars failing and I think that's because Litchfields map the cars a bit safer and dont peak the power.





Takamo said:


> No rods are stock, I don't do track days at all not my thing, I drive it as a daily driver when the weather is dry and to be fair I drive it very sensible in general. I leave it to iains setset up


so what BHP/torque are you running.. I read it as 807bhp 699.5lb ?

If so that's some cheeky torque, must go like stink!!.. Am surprised they would warranty 699.5lb on stock internals tho?


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

TABZ said:


> Whilst I understand you preferring litcho as your choice of tuner (that was never my question) I find it odd and quite telling you would base your choice on others supposed failures, knowing full well your car has not been as smooth sailing as you make out.
> Now I'm a fan of your car and it's cababilities but at least be fair and balanced when given an opinion.
> 
> To make such a sweeping statement (especially considering you have no dealings with Svm) is damaging and shows you up in bad light, you should know better given the issues and concerns you've had with your own car. Although nothing sinister, they certainly could have been. Your post regarding an Msl Dyno plot brought about a common argument against your car/spec to the point Ian came on to qoute as to why your car (not other litcho customers) was going to be warranted despite it producing 'figures' (incidentally turned down) which previously were deemed dangerous. Hence not exactly the same car you purchased but so long as you're happy.
> ...


My car has never failed in anyway as a result of mapping or too much power, if my car had any work done it wasn't because of bad workmanship or tuning, I am more than happy to say it that Litchfields in my opinion is a better tuner than SVM and I'm more than happy to line up with any SVM car. If your happy with svm good luck to you, and if iain turned my car down its because he's NOT in the business to blow up his customers cars and he prefers the better name which I have a lot of respect for. Time will tell roll on March.


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## TEAM_KHAN (Oct 8, 2007)

Tabz you amaze me, it's felt like not long ago you was slagging SVM as you felt they butchered your gearbox and today your going on like there sh*t don't stink. Yes every tuner has problem the difference with Litchfield is he does not wash his hands from the issue. Instead he asks what he can do to send you home happy! There are a good hand full of people who have been done and are some who currently trying to get there money back for dodgy bulids.... We have nothing against SVM good luck to you with your build


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Another sweeping statement Farooq, lol. Can you tell me where/when I slated svm exactly please, that's a silly accusation to make. 

Its no secret that I've had a niggling problem with my box, it happens. Every time I've mentioned it to so called R35 enthusiast all I got in response is an obvious svm witch hunt, hardly productive or helpful to me, just preferred tuner bias. 

Now unless you guys (not just you) are on commission, I don't understand that level of fan boy mentality. 
This is why I like reading Adams posts, they are informative and share a common narrative for most 35 owners, and not based on the drivel I've just read above, surely that's what its all about, the collating of information helpful to all regardless of who or where our cars are built. 

Its funny that every time an svm related thread comes up the usual suspects turn it into an svm vs litcho war, why is that, grow up ffs??

If Kev or Amar were to comment in regard to my view and criticism of svm, I'm sure you will find that they will agree, I place most emphasis on and scrutiny on what I expect, so hardly a case of svm's shit smelling good, I don't know why you would use such a metaphor, do you have something against svm? You obviously don't know me as you may think mate. I like to think I'm impartial on the whole tuner war front, but glad I amaze you.

I wont make mention of our conversation where you and your dad wasn't happy about the torque being detuned or the failed suspension components that could have cost you your life in other circumstances. 
(funny there's no criticism or mention of that from yourself)

All I've ask is for you Farooq and Rab to be tactful and actually read back what you type prior to posting, as a lot of what's written comes across all wrong.

Back on topic, I'm sure we both agree stage 5 is awesome.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

TABZ said:


> Another sweeping statement Farooq, lol. Can you tell me where/when I slated svm exactly please, that's a silly accusation to make.
> 
> Its no secret that I've had a niggling problem with my box, it happens. Every time I've mentioned it to so called R35 enthusiast all I got in response is an obvious svm witch hunt, hardly productive or helpful to me, just preferred tuner bias.
> 
> ...


My conversation with you was not that Litchfields messed my car up but in fact completely the opposite, I wasn't initially happy because I wanted more power and iain knowing far more than me or you will ever know insisted that he reduce the power to a safe point otherwise he couldn't warranty the car, at that time I wasn't happy but looking back on that it was in my interest which clearly as proved to be correct, as for the suspension part which broke that was not down to Litchfields work, that was down to MSL accidently strapping the car down from the wrong point which caused that to bend and snap, in fact Litchfields were very helpful even though they knew it wasn't down to them they still collected my car from my house and changed both sides for me free of charge. Yes I am a fan of Litchfields because they deserve and earned my respect, by the sound of things your the fan boy of SVM let's see how long that lasts, I'm backing my experience with Litchfields over 5years of dealing with iain. I'm not shy you know that and if Litchfields had given me top service everyone would know about it, but because there service and setup on my cars has been fantastic I'm letting everyone know also. Litchfields know there stuff and one day yourl realise. Oh by the way we love you to.


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## TEAM_KHAN (Oct 8, 2007)

I love it, I love your replys tabz I'm not gonna turn it into you said she said tread I have better things to do. It must of been another SVM customers with a black 850R with issues who was complaining at the show. I'm not on commission I just speak the truth and people who don't like it, try and slag me for it. Using big words don't frighten me unfortunately, I have no issue with SVM at all they are doing well and good luck to them. Back to my car, yes it's not all been perfect, we had a couple small issues that have been sorted, issue with the tie rod was down to the very possibility it may have been strapped down wrong. We sent the working part from the other side to have it tested ourselves and 12 tonnes of weight could not kink it forget braking it so we where satisfied with that..... Our car speaks for itself, I won't reply again I don't have time. Good luck to you on your build


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Rab I've never denied or claimed I know more than Ian or litcho's, I know what they can offer, that's kind of my point to the original poster, to speak to all companies, hardly me being pro svm, but you base your view of svm from third hand information and come across as biased not impartial. 
Like I said all companies have good and bad reviews, but its not something I would base my overall decision on when using any company, however its nice to have an educated view.

You continuously insinuate I will fall foul of svm, I don't understand why that is?
On the contrary I'm happy to use Litcho if ever needed in the future or jm and the like for that matter, scare tactics and forum grape vines don't influence my take on things.

Its funny I used the same MSL dyno, thankfully no suspension part broke, must be svm parts are stronger lol (that's a light hearted joke by the way). 

Personally if I was in your position at the time, I would have hit the roof and no way would I take the passing of blame so easily. You're not the only one that has had those very Litcho suspension parts fail and as such that led to a revision in those part on litchos side, funny those revisions weren't perfomed on you car prior to sale and nor was your torque/bhp capped until you posted on here.
12 tonne of pressure isn't applied during strapping I'm sure.
As long as you're happy bruv that's all that counts, just glad it wasn't worse.

Now lets enjoy 2016 for what it should be, embracing the tuning scene.

Farooq its all good bro. Again I made it clear on the day I had a box issue, and that was very frustrating for me, I'm sure you understand that, but that doesn't mean I slated svm and to my annoyance that's all I kept hearing on the day. I cant stand pub talk. 

Edited to add- the disgruntled litcho cars owners felt the same, I really felt for that lad who had his engine go on him, can see how gutted he was.


By the way once svm got hold of me having an issue, Amar offered a free of charge inspection.

My decision on having my car built by svm is based on many factors, their credentials being high up the list.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

What ever you say tabz Insha'allah time will tell and as for the steering control arm breaking the lad who strapped the car down admitted he may have accidentally put the strap over the steering control arm which would explain the damage caused to it. Most other tuners would have washed there hands of that and passed the blame and said it was caused by the dyno guys but Litchfields even with me being honest to them and telling them that it happened straight after the dynodyno still sent down there Litchfields recovery box trailer and changed the part on my driveway and took the car away to check it over and they changed both, did four wheel alignmentalignment totally free of any charge to Me all done ready in 24hrs. So respect us given where due.


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Excellent service and excellent management, there's no doubt litcho market themselves brilliantly, so much so that those who have genuine grievances are to scared to post form fear of back lash.
Personally I don't think that would have washed well with most but you're happy and that's key.

Now had that been an svm part fail it would be front page news. Do the math.

Looking forward to getting together at the shows, don't hurt me lol


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

What was this thread about again?


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Evo9lution said:


> What was this thread about again?


Can't remember now, but it's gone that depressing, I'm selling up!


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

I wanna have a proper punch up as I forgot to mention I have a short fuse earlier. 

Next dry day gathering I say we all go at it and bring some bricks/pry bars etc, aah the good old days on how we use to clear up heated car debates. I miss that so so much lol

Sorry my real personality showing a little guys, I will get back to my Virtuoso PC Persona 

BTW trying to get to 100 posts


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

TABZ said:


> Excellent service and excellent management, there's no doubt litcho market themselves brilliantly, so much so that those who have genuine grievances are to scared to post form fear of back lash.
> Personally I don't think that would have washed well with most but you're happy and that's key.
> 
> Now had that been an svm part fail it would be front page news. Do the math.
> ...


I wouldn't hurt you bro, it's only a bit of fun, I go to enjoy myself and I line up with anyone as you seen, I've lined up with from the seriously powerful to the lawnmower powered cars. And the reason why it would be front page news had that been a svm part is they just don't give the same customer after sales support otherwise no one would have to come onto the forum to State there problems.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Evo9lution said:


> What was this thread about again?


Q: is there good reliability in the information about Stage 5 mods on this forum?

A: not really


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

My Litchfield Stage 5 car made 807.5 BHP and 657lb/ft torque - standard internals - no reliability issues whatsoever - one would mistake it for a standard engine until the EFR turbos spool :chuckle:


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

MR-07-SHA said:


> My Litchfield Stage 5 car made 807.5 BHP and 657lb/ft torque - standard internals - no reliability issues whatsoever - one would mistake it for a standard engine until the EFR turbos spool :chuckle:


how different did you find going from 650R to 800??? much wheel spin... and do you have litchfield traction control? thanks


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

Faster turbo spool - noticeably faster through the gears - found the car would reach triple figures much faster than a 650R!..Also, saw a huge increase in top end power. 

Found the Litchfield suspension/MPSS helped immensely with traction - especially when moving off fast - traction improved when in comfort mode - less wheel spin in dry/wet - wouldn't go for any other setup.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

MR-07-SHA said:


> Faster turbo spool - noticeably faster through the gears - found the car would reach triple figures much faster than a 650R!..Also, saw a huge increase in top end power.
> 
> Found the Litchfield suspension/MPSS helped immensely with traction - especially when moving off fast - traction improved when in comfort mode - less wheel spin in dry/wet - wouldn't go for any other setup.


Have you bought one bro


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

On the look out for another Stage 5 car very soon bro..anything less would be criminal!


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Huzzy1 said:


> Why am I reading this thinking I could justify the £15k to the misses for a Stage 5?????




I can't even justify to myself it's worth spending that money let alone my wife


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

I think once you've had a stage 5 set up, it's difficult to detune and go for anything lesser.

That said I still believe you can't beat a stage 4 set up, it just makes financial sense, ticks all the right boxes, relatively easy to maintain and doesn't require a ridiculous amount of money to make it happen.

The fact that stage 5 is now available on similar terms (standard engine) it's a no brainer, that said there's no way I would chance 800+bhp on oem internals.


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

I wouldn't be satisfied going back to a stage 4 car having experienced stage 5..but appreciate the financial sense!

Also, wouldn't dare drive the GTR with 800bhp without a warranty!!!


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Stage 5 turbo's with uprated clutches sounds about right, I am more interested in the peak torque figures that HP as the torque is what carries you down the road.

I am seriously looking at the kits out there as its liveable by many and a good step up from 4.25.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

The drivability element is of interest. When it's wet my 650bhp car can be a handful. Is a stage 5 in anything other than perfect conditions and tyres, a tractable car to drive? In as much as with a little bit of care you can achieve 100% throttle and the car doesn't just want to wheel spin or slide everywhere?


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

Agree - Torque wins races ..also kills engines/gearboxes! 
I went from 640lb/ft to 700lb/ft after forged engine setup - felt a massive difference, but was worried about the gearbox breaking.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

MR-07-SHA said:


> Agree - Torque wins races ..also kills engines/gearboxes!
> I went from 640lb/ft to 700lb/ft after forged engine setup - felt a massive difference, but was worried about the gearbox breaking.


Yep the world I come from is where its all Torque and 1/4 mile results. Living in the states for so long, these things rub off on you  . I actually couldn't give a hoot what BHP the dyno says, more interested in that "Thrust / Face pulling effect"  

Were all big kids at the end of the day but Pub/Bar talking hp numbers doesn't do it for me. 

Forged internals would be nice as that's probably the perfect reliability setup for a good Stage 5 emitting strong top end. But then we are talking serious money and no more Bolt On's.


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> The drivability element is of interest. When it's wet my 650bhp car can be a handful. Is a stage 5 in anything other than perfect conditions and tyres, a tractable car to drive? In as much as with a little bit of care you can achieve 100% throttle and the car doesn't just want to wheel spin or slide everywhere?


Like you say in the wet the a 650R is a handful..a stage 5 is no exception..probably less tractable, but dependant on suspension, ride settings, tyres, surface, throttle use etc 

In my experience the Litch suspension/steering arms/F&R anti-roll bars/MPSS all played a positive role in improving traction/handling.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm running 806bhp / 631lbft and car behaves very well in wet. The Litchfield traction control does what it says on the tin. I tested in wet a couple of weeks after the build was completed, so I knew what to expect if I ever got caught out. Floored it in 3rd gear to redline and the traction control just cuts in a lot, but the car went in a straight line (tested at night on empty road, just in case).


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Abuse kills cars it's a simple as that, you can abuse a stock car and it will go pop, there are cars out with stock engines pushing 900hp and are still running with no issues because they don't get abused. Abuse kills people forget cars


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Is the litchfield traction control adjustable ? ie : percentage of slip


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

No it's fixed, but R-mode allows more slip. I'm sure they could offer adjustable if enough people wanted it, I know Ben at GTC has a custom map that allows it to be adjusted.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

hsb said:


> I actually couldn't give a hoot what BHP the dyno says, more interested in that "Thrust / Face pulling effect"


The face pulling effect is actually down to how much power you generate. 2000lbft of torque at 500rpm will literally feel like a 1 litre fiesta at full power, whereas 500lbft of torque at 7000rpm will feel like a stage 4.25 GTR.

With close ratio dual clutch gearboxes, torque means slightly less than it used to, albeit remembering that bhp = torque x rpm/5252 (ie bhp is function of torque and revs)

To get technical, you really want to look at the area under the bhp graph in the rpm zone that you'll be racing in, for every gear.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> The drivability element is of interest. When it's wet my 650bhp car can be a handful. Is a stage 5 in anything other than perfect conditions and tyres, a tractable car to drive? In as much as with a little bit of care you can achieve 100% throttle and the car doesn't just want to wheel spin or slide everywhere?


Yeah I was thinking this too. As wouldnt want turbo upgrades, if the car just wheel spins/tractions everywhere = pointless



Anders_R35 said:


> No it's fixed, but R-mode allows more slip. I'm sure they could offer adjustable if enough people wanted it, I know Ben at GTC has a custom map that allows it to be adjusted.


how much better is it, than stock traction control?


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Ecutek are slipping (pun) - Cobb has i think its 10 settings on the fly - plus you can map it


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

I have the Linney TC on mine and OMG does it kick in and has variables depending on weather. I think the Litcho TC is similar as based on toggles it changes.

My car made noises like i'd never heard before when I went full Linney TC mode in the wet, sounded like a drag/race car popping away trying to stabilize. What a sound.

Not sure if it was cutting cylinders under load but incredible.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

Chronos said:


> Yeah I was thinking this too. As wouldnt want turbo upgrades, if the car just wheel spins/tractions everywhere = pointless
> 
> how much better is it, than stock traction control?


Less intrusive because it doesn't shut the throttle bodies, I think it uses ignition cut. I know they did a lot of testing on track with it with racing drivers testing / refining it.


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

AdnanK said:


> I don't have the balls.


I will leave a spare set in the boot that you can borrow for the day.

T


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Anders_R35 said:


> Less intrusive because it doesn't shut the throttle bodies, I think it uses ignition cut. I know they did a lot of testing on track with it with racing drivers testing / refining it.


How do we get it? doesnt it come with ecutek 5? thanks .. Wouldnt mind trying it.


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Chronos, our traction control is something we developed back on the Version 4 software using custom maps. We use a revised for version 5 (nissan_gtr_ecu_v5 - Litchfield Motors) and are currently working on a further update. EcuTek have a example file of their own version that some tuners are using. 

In theory if it reacts quick enough you should need to adjust anything as the system should know how much slip the car is getting and adapt accordingly. However it can be useful to adjust the severity of its effects for things like drag racing.

OP, any questions about our Stage 5 setup feel free to contact us as we have completed a huge number over the years


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## ISR36 (May 6, 2015)

Dare I ask as I'm meant to be selling, but if its supposedly £15k to get from stock -> stage 5, what is it to get from 4.25 to 5?..


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

ISR36 said:


> Dare I ask as I'm meant to be selling, but if its supposedly £15k to get from stock -> stage 5, what is it to get from 4.25 to 5?..


Iain has a table on his website detailing the upgrades

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Proper Wonga for them golden turbo's. Same with some others it seems


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

ISR36 said:


> Dare I ask as I'm meant to be selling, but if its supposedly £15k to get from stock -> stage 5, what is it to get from 4.25 to 5?..


A common question and a luring one at that.
I'm assuming a lot would be based on what the car already has and weather or not you want to change certain parts at the same time.
Considering the engine has to come out to change the turbos, surely it makes sense to do the rods (at least) at the same time, and then you have to weigh up your options and decide where it all ends as the choices vary and incur more and more cost as you continue to spec.

If its just turbo's, remap etc, I don't think the price to achieve an extra 100bhp over stage 4 can be justified. 
Just my thought.

I had Ben Linney map my traction control setup on road and must say it made a noticeable difference. 
Takamo's Litchfield car is one that always impresses me as it was so consistent on times and launch control on that thing was clearly better then others on the day.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Thank you tabz


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## DocT (Dec 17, 2014)

I've been considering stage 5 up from my 4.25 for the past few weeks.

It makes sense to do the rods but upping the torque to around 700ft/lb would involve suitable reinforcement for the gearbox as well right?

What kind of gearbox upgrades are we talking and what kind of costs?


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

DocT said:


> I've been considering stage 5 up from my 4.25 for the past few weeks.
> 
> It makes sense to do the rods but upping the torque to around 700ft/lb would involve suitable reinforcement for the gearbox as well right?
> 
> What kind of gearbox upgrades are we talking and what kind of costs?


Speak to iain at Litchfields he'll give you the best recommendation, it also depends on what model year car you have because I believe that the face-lift cars gearbox have stock upgraded circlips and are stronger.


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## DocT (Dec 17, 2014)

Takamo said:


> Speak to iain at Litchfields he'll give you the best recommendation, it also depends on what model year car you have because I believe that the face-lift cars gearbox have stock upgraded circlips and are stronger.


I've already had the upgraded Dodson circlips and magnets from Litchfield even though my car is a facelift DBA.

Always assumed that the circlips and magnets are a preventative upgrade rather than a power/torque limiting issue above a certain threshold level.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

DocT said:


> I've already had the upgraded Dodson circlips and magnets from Litchfield even though my car is a facelift DBA.
> 
> Always assumed that the circlips and magnets are a preventative upgrade rather than a power/torque limiting issue above a certain threshold level.


Like I said I'd give Iain a call and discuss it with him


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Doing some guesswork here but as Takacmo says, speak to the tuners:

Stage 5:
Turbo's = 3-8k GBP?
Whilst motor is out, worth doing pistons/rods and engine tidy up = 3-4k GBP?
Clutch for extra load = 1k?
Gears only if needed for launches etc = 3k?
Labour etc all included I would think as well as re-tuning.

Just guessing but I think the above is a ballpark so its not 15K for just the turbo's I would assume?


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

hsb said:


> Doing some guesswork here but as Takacmo says, speak to the tuners:
> 
> Stage 5:
> Turbo's = 3-8k GBP?
> ...


Which reputable tuner does all that work using quality new parts for that price I'm interested


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Must agree with Takamo that price list is optimistic


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Prices seem very optimistic hsb.

Again speak to all tuners and you will be pleasantly surprised at just how much prices differ.

I think it's a personal choice regarding rods/pistons done, given litcho do efr turbos and warrant their stage 5 without building the engine. I can see why that's a winner for most who are on a budget, so why not. 
If I were keeping the car, I would much rather build the engine and ultimately as safe measure as well future proof the car, but again it's what your budget allows.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

The way I see it is if a very reputable tuner like Iain will modify your car to level of stage 5 without insisting engine build and feel comfortable to warranty the car then that is good enough for me, iain carries out rigorous testing on development and mapping which I take my hat off to him for, he not only does his testing in house, he test in hired out airfields and one of the reasons for the build of the dyno room was for further development of his products. He's not shy believe me if he feels something isn't going to be safe he won't take anyany chances and just hope for the best he will only let things leave if he is happy.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

hsb said:


> Doing some guesswork here but as Takacmo says, speak to the tuners:
> Stage 5:
> Turbo's = 3-8k GBP?
> Whilst motor is out, worth doing pistons/rods and engine tidy up = 3-4k GBP?
> ...


I'd say from stage 4-5 for parts only, yes-ish (depends on parts chosen, turbos could be 3k to 10k+).. NOT from stock as you would need FULL exhaust/injectors/intakes etc/ecutek to get stage 4 first. THEN add labor on top, and it's a *BIG *job.



terry lloyd said:


> Must agree with Takamo that price list is optimistic





TABZ said:


> Prices seem very optimistic hsb.
> Again speak to all tuners and you will be pleasantly surprised at just how much prices differ.
> I think it's a personal choice regarding rods/pistons done, given litcho do efr turbos and warrant their stage 5 without building the engine. I can see why that's a winner for most who are on a budget, so why not.
> If I were keeping the car, I would much rather build the engine and ultimately as safe measure as well future proof the car, but again it's what your budget allows.


+1


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Ok trying to move this away from specific builders names guys as im not interested in that story anymore.

From the research I have been doing, allot of the parts can be sourced but my pricing of the turbo's is more for a Stage 5 where so many companies are offering these from 3k upwards for a reliable 700+hp which is not your all singing manifold and pipework swapped turbos but bolt on replacements that are super capable of 800+WHP.

Please note the following is my fudgy math and looking at parts sites, to build a motor from *Stage 4 already existing:*

Pistons - 1.5k max
Roads - 1.5k max
Updated components ie bolts/gaskets etc 1k max
Labour and process 1k max

That's 5k for a well built machine at prob a stage 1 or stage 2 forged short block correct? 

Add on a 3k turbo upgrade with another 1k in inlets tuning etc etc and your looking at 8-9k for a close to 750WHP built motor minus clutch work and fuelling. This would be for a daily driving power house and not drag racing every other week but something that's going to give you smiles for a long time until your gearbox blows up when you do decide to drag race it 

Ive got the itch so bad that if I could take my motor out I would probably do allot of the work myself ie bolting in all the components, just sounds so intriguing to do it myself, highly doubtful I would though.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Side note living in the States as well as the UK provides you will access to "SUPER CHEAP" Forged parts compared to prices in the UK. Even though many are made in the EU.

Basically take the prices above and make them USD which gives you a saving also.

My Alcon replacements were $400 USD for the fronts - *Hey maybe I should start my own GTR Parts shop for the UK? What do you think LOL  * *Only can sell what the suitcase allows me LOL*


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## gtrsam (Oct 27, 2005)

*How many built engines has resulted in problems ?

*Do you have any warranty at all (prob. depending on tuner /builder) and if you can prove that the problem that has occurred is related to the build, this will be very difficult ?

*Have the engine builder taken their responsibility if problems has occurred in known cases ?

I' am not really against building the engine but it is crucial that you find a serious tuner/builder. What ever guarantee they promise (read all the disclaimers it is probably not worth that much). If something goes bad be prepared to pay do everything all over again .Then again living is dangerous ...you can die ....."_killed by death_"....;-).


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Major advantage being from US, no doubt in that. 
Gtr tax over here is ridiculous


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

gtrsam said:


> *How many built engines has resulted in problems ?
> 
> *Do you have any warranty at all (prob. depending on tuner /builder) and if you can prove that the problem that has occurred is related to the build, this will be very difficult ?
> 
> ...


Litchfield include 12 month warranty on their engines as standard. I'd like to think the engine would blow in the first 12 months if a faulty / weak component found it's way in to engine.

Be interesting to see how long it lasts, but with circa 5K miles a year I'm sure it will last 4-5 years and by then it might be time to buy an R36


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

It all sounds very easy and cheap but I'm sure if it was that simple and cheap everyone would be getting it done. Personally I'd rather let someone who knows exactly what they are doing sort it and be responsible for it. I'm sure there's a lot more to it then that.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Takamo said:


> It all sounds very easy and cheap but I'm sure if it was that simple and cheap everyone would be getting it done. Personally I'd rather let someone who knows exactly what they are doing sort it and be responsible for it. I'm sure there's a lot more to it then that.


Oh trust me there is a ton more involved that what I wrote, my post was just a ballpark but it does seem as though many builders in the UK are doing forged setup's for 5-6k all in at a Stage 1 forged without going big crank and still using new OEM gaskets. Well worth it if your going to be doing Stage 5 with allot of track days and helps with the resale value for the future knowing its forged. Always better to have the pro's do it as you said, *but here's a thought: When ever you have tightened a bolt on your car, doesn't it give you satisfaction that you did it yourself knowing you torqued/tightened it correctly with your own eyes?*

Gearboxes are becoming cheaper to update state side as many shops are doing full rebuilds at 3k for 700+lbs torque but this isn't a launch box. Jacks T's and others all have good names and it won't be long until these prices are reflected over here is my opinion. Clutches have come down considerably over the last year for upgraded systems too.

BTW I am terrible with home mechanics and have a heavy hand so I would be the worst to probably do my own car LOL


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

hsb said:


> Ok trying to move this away from specific builders names guys as im not interested in that story anymore.
> 
> From the research I have been doing, allot of the parts can be sourced but my pricing of the turbo's is more for a Stage 5 where so many companies are offering these from 3k upwards for a reliable 700+hp which is not your all singing manifold and pipework swapped turbos but bolt on replacements that are super capable of 800+WHP.
> 
> ...


You're dreaming if you think all of that labour is £1k. I would say your parts pricing isn't far off, but labour will be a few K more.




hsb said:


> My Alcon replacements were $400 USD for the fronts


I hate you :chuckle: 



hsb said:


> Oh trust me there is a ton more involved that what I wrote, my post was just a ballpark but it does seem as though many builders in the UK are doing forged setup's for 5-6k all in at a Stage 1 forged without going big crank and still using new OEM gaskets. Well worth it if your going to be doing Stage 5 with allot of track days and helps with the resale value for the future knowing its forged. Always better to have the pro's do it as you said, *but here's a thought: When ever you have tightened a bolt on your car, doesn't it give you satisfaction that you did it yourself knowing you torqued/tightened it correctly with your own eyes?*
> 
> Gearboxes are becoming cheaper to update state side as many shops are doing full rebuilds at 3k for 700+lbs torque but this isn't a launch box. Jacks T's and others all have good names and it won't be long until these prices are reflected over here is my opinion. Clutches have come down considerably over the last year for upgraded systems too.
> 
> BTW I am terrible with home mechanics and have a heavy hand so I would be the worst to probably do my own car LOL



I could see forged engine with rods and pistons being £7k - £8k all in
Turbos - normal stage 5, stock frame replacements - 4k fitted and tunedin parallel to above work

so your over 10k for a built lump and modified stock frame turbos. It's an awful lot of money. I get it for the built lump but the cost of the modified stock frame turbos is a joke in my opinion.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Have a looksy at a reasonably priced OEM upgrade

900R IHI

Engine Forged: http://www.severnvalleymotorsport.co.uk/packages/engine-internals-stage-1 Sure many others are similar priced on a stage 1

Quite allot of choices out there including some proven Precision setup's that give over 750 at the wheels with all bolt on's. I see kits going for as little as 2k, spool variance is what ive seen the biggest differentiator ie 200-300 above stock spool.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

That price is £6k for forged engine rated to 750bhp.

There is always other 'shit' to pay for on GT-Rs. Be it snapped bolts or just other stuff to do that's sensible whist your in there. I could easily see another £1k being added on.

The stock frame turbos do seem reasonably priced when compared to the market. But considering this is an exchange price, what are you getting for the money?

Rebuilt stock turbos. Some basic machining on the compressor housing. Bigger replacement wheels. Always seems like a lot of money - although I can appreciate your also paying for the R&D that went into working out what cann be done.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

I am going off these stock frame turbos - a lot of people are changing them after a short while - wastgate fapper is also small and the turbine housing becomes very thin after machining - hks kits are not much more if you go for roller bearing cores


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

When having engines built in the past, I always set a budget with the builder and told them not to go over this unless it was something catastrophic. I am sure Forged prices are negociated if you have a good relationship as many do on this forum with their tuners.

Stage 5 is all about taking the package to the next level, I don't think we should compare every OEM frame kit vs an upgraded one as that's then beyond a Stage 5. I think non EOM cores are Stage 6??

I have little experience with the GTR but having manifolds / lines etc all upgraded from OEM is above a stage 5 as that's how the cost jumps through the roof. Bolt on turbo's 2-4k is the price of an exhaust system even with labour.

I think OEM Core upgrades to a stage 5 = simple next step from a 4.25 or 4.5 *i get lost with all these numbers* best bang for buck and costs can be far lower than the 15k some were stating. 

Might even be worth getting a used Stage 5 turbo kit and having it rebuilt and save a few grand over the TAX money the original owner paid.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

hsb said:


> Have a looksy at a reasonably priced OEM upgrade
> 
> 900R IHI
> 
> ...


Bit pointless spending £5K on a built engine that can handle only 50bhp more than a stock engine (admit it will handle more torque though). At some point you'll want more power and then you have to rip out engine and start again??


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

hsb said:


> Have a looksy at a reasonably priced OEM upgrade
> 
> 900R IHI
> 
> ...


That's the turbos I used. would deffo use them again. I ran 1.4bar but they car run 1.8bar for around 900bhp


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Anders_R35 said:


> Bit pointless spending £5K on a built engine that can handle only 50bhp more than a stock engine (admit it will handle more torque though). At some point you'll want more power and then you have to rip out engine and start again??


I did think the same but going stage 5 would give you a faster trap speed and getting to the desired mph faster I would assume. Or shall we say you can overtake a little faster than a well tuned 4.25  

I will let that debate be handled by the many pro's on the forum


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## DocT (Dec 17, 2014)

hsb said:


> I did think the same but going stage 5 would give you a faster trap speed and getting to the desired mph faster I would assume. Or shall we say you can overtake a little faster than a well tuned 4.25
> 
> I will let that debate be handled by the many pro's on the forum


For me this is what it's about. I see there are owners out there who treat the modifications as a means of car development with no particular use in sight. Which is fair enough and appreciate the careful consideration into what will provide minute gains on a dyno.

For me the car is a tool to be used in the hobby/art of driving. Currently at stage 4.25 the hammer is that much bigger and more effective than the previous stock incarnation. Will spending 10k v 4k on turbo's provide a considerable improvement in the end result of performance on road and track as it's meant to be driven?


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

hsb said:


> I will let that debate be handled by the many *fanboi's* on the forum


You didn't actually say that but *I* know that's what you meant


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

DocT said:


> For me this is what it's about. I see there are owners out there who treat the modifications as a means of car development with no particular use in sight. Which is fair enough and appreciate the careful consideration into what will provide minute gains on a dyno.
> 
> For me the car is a tool to be used in the hobby/art of driving. Currently at stage 4.25 the hammer is that much bigger and more effective than the previous stock incarnation. Will spending 10k v 4k on turbo's provide a considerable improvement in the end result of performance on road and track as it's meant to be driven?


Most sensible thing I think I have read today.

I could not agree anymore with you, some of us drive these things and some of us only driven them when the weather is nice. Its a Hobby for me too although not the priority hobby at the moment. 

I have allot of banter with my Biker buddies and constantly show them what these cars are capable of. Its always nice to say you have a car that can match or even beat a decent bike.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

as we know stage 1-4 doesnt really affect car value so much, but do we think a stage Stage 5 (downpipes+Turbos) car makes the car value higher? due to turbo costs?

and more so when it's stage 5 forged as well, if so how much more.. obviously if tuned by a reputable tuner.


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## Jonndogg (Oct 27, 2012)

Stage 5 seem to go for marginally more and then there seems to be a jump when the engine & transmission have been modified. As with all mods you will not be getting much if any of the purchase price back when you sell on.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

I think a stage 5 from a reputable tuner IS worth a decent chunk more. I also think a car with a forged lump from a reputable tuner IS also worth more again.

That's certainly how my man maths works anyway. Purchase cost - capital gain = actual cost of conversion, which comes out at only a few k


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

From the search I did when looking for a GTR, here's an example:

59 plate stock or stage 1 circa 42k
59 plate with Stage 5 and forged 52k from reputable dealer

I called for 3 high powered cars, 2 x Litcho stage 5 and 1 x SVM. I was told all 3 sold very quickly due to their condition. 1 dealer did say that a stage 1 guy traded up for the forged one as it was saving him money on upgrading his.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Stage 5 is a monster compared to stage 4....massive difference I've had all the stages


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Jonndogg said:


> Stage 5 seem to go for marginally more and then there seems to be a jump when the engine & transmission have been modified. As with all mods you will not be getting much if any of the purchase price back when you sell on.





gtr mart said:


> I think a stage 5 from a reputable tuner IS worth a decent chunk more. I also think a car with a forged lump from a reputable tuner IS also worth more again.
> That's certainly how my man maths works anyway. Purchase cost - capital gain = actual cost of conversion, which comes out at only a few k





hsb said:


> From the search I did when looking for a GTR, here's an example:
> 59 plate stock or stage 1 circa 42k
> 59 plate with Stage 5 and forged 52k from reputable dealer
> I called for 3 high powered cars, 2 x Litcho stage 5 and 1 x SVM. I was told all 3 sold very quickly due to their condition. 1 dealer did say that a stage 1 guy traded up for the forged one as it was saving him money on upgrading his.





Takamo said:


> Stage 5 is a monster compared to stage 4....massive difference I've had all the stages


Thing is if you are going from say stage 4.25/650-680 to stage 5/750-770? It's a wedge of ££ for just a 100bhp-ish extra power and same-ish torque if not forged. Is it really that much quicker?........................

Stage 5 - Hmm... so they are quite interesting replies, As I was wondering IF one got turbos... come sale time have you lost all the $$$ for them, and also come sale time, would you have trouble selling the car if turbo'd/forged. As I've seen some high power Evos on the MLR, turbo'd/forged which don't seem to sell as quickly, as the standard USUAL bolton modded cars.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Here's my added view. Do a search on You tube and you will see dozens of EVO forged / big turbo videos. Then search GTR and there will be hundreds with millions of views. Different market all together and most of the buyers for these higher HP cars don't even come near forums as they just want rocket ships sitting in their garage and dragging their biker mates.

I know of 2 lads with super high HP GTR's that only bought them and specifically searched for built cars so they didn't have to deal with all the hassle. Granted these owners are rarer but most built cars exchange hands via the tuners and customers wanting to upgrade. Just my novice view.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I think the GT-R is a different market too.

It's a much more expensive car that is holding its value above £40k. The cost of modding to get serious power is much higher and as a result those people even looking at the car in the first place have much more disposable income than the typical evo/subaru driver.

The cost of the conversions and the reputation of the people carrying them out at this level makes them more desirable in the aftermarket. The upgrade paths are well defined and as such people know in their second hand pricing, exactly how much of a discount they've achieved by letting someone else take the hit.

I can't speak for other cars, but I do think the GT-R is about the most expensive car you can safely modify without expecting to lose a lot of money on the actual car in the process. You won't recover all modding money (take it from someone who knows) but you will recover a significant fraction of it on top of the normal second hand value of the car.

I would imagine once you start doing similar to mclarens/ferraris/lamborghins, you may lose some of the cost of the mods, but you'll lose a much bigger chunk of the value of the car by "spoiling" it.

Btw. forging on a gtr, is not the big deal that it is on other cars.

On other cars, the forging aspect comes along with aftermarket ecus and the costs of engine removal. To fit new turbos, the engine has to come out anyway, and so for 7/8k you can forge the engine, on top of the significant cost of the gearbox, clutch, turbo and intercooler upgrade. In short, the engine is not really a huge chunk of it.

On the GT-R the ecutek is already so capable that it does the job for most people, this makes ownership nicer and more reliable and less specific tuner dependent. 

The other thing is that the chassis doesn't struggle with the massive power in the same way as taking a subaru/evo from 300 to 700 does.

It's already stable at 500bhp and sub 3 seconds to 60, so even an extra 1000bhp, doesn't affect things much below 60, the biggest effect is 60-100, but beyond that the rate of acceleration increase over standard still doesn't compare with the mental 0-60 loading that it can cope with out of the box.

All of this combines to make a very tunable yet forgiving package. Hence the modded cars holding their money.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Chronos said:


> Thing is if you are going from say stage 4.25/650-680 to stage 5/750-770? It's a wedge of ££ for just a 100bhp-ish extra power and same-ish torque if not forged. Is it really that much quicker?........................
> 
> Stage 5 - Hmm... so they are quite interesting replies, As I was wondering IF one got turbos... come sale time have you lost all the $$$ for them, and also come sale time, would you have trouble selling the car if turbo'd/forged. As I've seen some high power Evos on the MLR, turbo'd/forged which don't seem to sell as quickly, as the standard USUAL bolton modded cars.



It's the ability of the turbos to hold significant torque, right upto the red line that makes the difference. I imagine that's quite a rush.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Best advice is try to buy a good modified car and that's where you will save money and headache.


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## twobadmice (Jul 2, 2013)

Anyone that wants a good stage 5 or higher car just needs to wait a few months and Adam will have had 2 or 3 more.

Stage 5+ is a beast of a car. If built correctly and with suitable peace of mind they will attract a premium as most people would rather spend less money to buy one done than pay the full retail price of doing it.

A well documented car will always have a premium over a ropey conversion.

The power levels and peace of mind are worth many many smiles.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

It would be really good to see some MPH *Trap Speed* of a 4.25 and a stage 5. Torque max would be similar but I would like to see the MPH if anyone has any?

I know the cars are different ie drivers/tyres etc but it gives a ball park to us who are looking.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

That means going to a drag strip or driving like an idiot on the road.

You are talking well over 120mph, no way on earth I'd be prepared to do that. Over 100mph is immediate ban, and the speeds you are talking is risking a jail sentence.

Just not worth it to for me, especially as I believe the dyno numbers.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

ahem, something I found on the tinterweb.

http://vid1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/pearlninja888/GTR/IMG_9131_zpsb57e3d8d.mp4

This is a stage 4.25 (running slightly under power due to mapping (560lbft/620hp) vs a stage 5 or 6 - Litchfield sport forged engine - on EFR 6758 turbos but normal manifold - circa 800 bhp

All filmed on one of the owners driveway I believe


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> That means going to a drag strip or driving like an idiot on the road.
> 
> You are talking well over 120mph, no way on earth I'd be prepared to do that. Over 100mph is immediate ban, and the speeds you are talking is risking a jail sentence.
> 
> Just not worth it to for me, especially as I believe the dyno numbers.


I think you got me wrong mate, I was asking if anyone has any previous MPH that they can share from going to the drag strip or even Vbox measurements.


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

Isn't there a pinned post with times in (although the data is now in a google sheet with restricted access!!!)

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

goRt,

Are you referring to the drag results thread?

If so, the access is restricted to me!!

I amend it on request when asked.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

hsb said:


> I think you got me wrong mate, I was asking if anyone has any previous MPH that they can share from going to the drag strip or even Vbox measurements.


My Litchfield stage 5 ran 10.3 @ 138.9mph at the pod


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

Takamo said:


> My Litchfield stage 5 ran 10.3 @ 138.9mph at the pod


Thanks Takamo - very helpful.

I am guessing a stage 4.25 is circa 125 trap speed which is a hefty difference. On the road that would equate to almost 3 car lengths being pulled over a 1/8 of a mile whilst rolling I would imagine.

So stage 5 is a hefty improvement!


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

hsb said:


> Thanks Takamo - very helpful.
> 
> I am guessing a stage 4.25 is circa 125 trap speed which is a hefty difference. On the road that would equate to almost 3 car lengths being pulled over a 1/8 of a mile whilst rolling I would imagine.
> 
> So stage 5 is a hefty improvement!


Most definitely, amazing difference especially the turbo spool is also more instant


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

stage 4.5 or 5 without forging the engine does scare me though. Hell, stage 4.25 used in anger scares me (re mechanical failure).

For me, I wouldn't do turbos without doing rods, unless my car was very new and was fully warranted via someone like litchfields.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

gtr mart said:


> stage 4.5 or 5 without forging the engine does scare me though. Hell, stage 4.25 used in anger scares me (re mechanical failure).
> 
> For me, I wouldn't do turbos without doing rods, unless my car was very new and was fully warranted via someone like litchfields.


I agree that's why I bought a Litchfield approved and warranted car


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> goRt,
> 
> Are you referring to the drag results thread?
> 
> ...


Can you post up the times / trap speeds as that seems to be of interest

Thanks


Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

So if litchfield done a stage 5 conversion is that engine warranted if it pops ? or do you have to take out a warranty as well


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Hmmmm


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

terry lloyd said:


> So if litchfield done a stage 5 conversion is that engine warranted if it pops ? or do you have to take out a warranty as well


It's extra and subject to them taking it on.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

goRt said:


> Can you post up the times / trap speeds as that seems to be of interest


All the info I've been given is already in the tables.


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> All the info I've been given is already in the tables.


Thanks, gave me a security violation when I looked the other day, fine now


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> goRt,
> 
> Are you referring to the drag results thread?
> 
> ...


And fortunately changes are only made with proof.
So all the silly claims don't screw up the results on it.


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## hsb (Aug 19, 2013)

One thing I would like to add from my observations:

Some stage 5 kits are straight bolt on turbo upgrades whilst others *More Costly* are turbo's / manifolds / lines etc. There appears to be a large variance between the cost of these kits hence why the whole renaming and comparing various stage 5 kits should be re-measured?

Kits that are 15K for the Stage 5 are larger than just a turbo bolt on as above, the ones for 3k are just direct replacements which utilize OEM lines and manifolds it would seem. I think its safer to re-set the tuners measuring abilities when discussing stage 5 with customers, as many are immediately turned off when we say 15K for Stage 5 as its a far more involved kit with immense engineering vs a well developed bolt on OEM turbo upgrades utilizing the factory turbo housing.

Just my 2 cents.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Anyone got any information/dyno charts on how the linney EFR turbo's spool? I'm guessing that technically they are the same as Litchfield's but without the fancy manifolds.
I mean these...
900R Borgwarner EFR 6758


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Stage 5 is not just turbos, it's intercooler and fuel pumps to suit.

It used to mean new turbo core usually garret. You could call a full turbo kit stage 6 and a hybrid stock turbo stage 4.5.

At least that's what I've always believed.

My own stage 5 was as above but I also had circlips and magnets done and it came to 11k at the time.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

My car is stage 5 on 28 based turbos running 800bhp and 650 on a stock engine. The car is 2010 now 30k miles and was stage 2 for 1 year, stage 4 for 1 year and has been stage 5 for over 3 years. 3 track days, 1 runway event and fast road use. I've had no issues with the engine or gearbox thus far. Lichfield has looked after my car from day 1!


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> ahem, something I found on the tinterweb.
> 
> http://vid1293.photobucket.com/albums/b599/pearlninja888/GTR/IMG_9131_zpsb57e3d8d.mp4
> 
> ...





vxrcymru said:


> My car is stage 5 on 28 based turbos running 800bhp and 650 on a stock engine. The car is 2010 now 30k miles and was stage 2 for 1 year, stage 4 for 1 year and has been stage 5 for over 3 years. 3 track days, 1 runway event and fast road use. I've had no issues with the engine or gearbox thus far. Lichfield has looked after my car from day 1!



how different did you find stage 4 compared to 5? and it what gears etc? thanks


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Chronos said:


> how different did you find stage 4 compared to 5? and it what gears etc? thanks


It feels a bit stronger through 3, 4, 5 & 6 and at the top end compared to stage 4.25. 

But the compromise of a stock engine is that torque remains the same as stage 4. Ideally for a true stage 5 you want a forged engine and run 680 -700 ftlbs, that would no doubt make the car feel significanty quicker than a stage 4.

I have noticed when flooring it down a straight on track against stage 4.25 cars from between 100 to 160mph I don't pull away as much as I was expecting. 

Personally, for a road car i would stick at stage 4.25, especially now they are making high 600's or go stage 5 with a forged engine. Not for safety but so that you can turn up the torque and feel a major difference between the two stages.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

borat52 said:


> Anyone got any information/dyno charts on how the linney EFR turbo's spool? I'm guessing that technically they are the same as Litchfield's but without the fancy manifolds.
> I mean these...
> 900R Borgwarner EFR 6758


Worth asking Iain for a comparison plot as these were the first EFRs we tested.

Am sure he'll have some plots for reference.

They do spool well. I ran the 6258s without the manifolds and they were incredible in both spool and even better in response than the 6758s. Did run out of puff at 800 bhp though. 6758 was closer to 880ish.


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

vxrcymru said:


> It feels a bit stronger through 3, 4, 5 & 6 and at the top end compared to stage 4.25.
> 
> But the compromise of a stock engine is that torque remains the same as stage 4. Ideally for a true stage 5 you want a forged engine and run 680 -700 ftlbs, that would no doubt make the car feel significanty quicker than a stage 4.
> 
> ...


Sensible advice here from Dylan unless you have a load of spare cash burning a hole in your pocket. As I've said previously for a predominantly road car the 4.25 stage spec is the place to be, with 670-680bhp available at this spec with Ecutek V5 it makes a lot of sense to use this as a quick, reliable road car.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I agree although I've not seen any evidence to suggest that any higher spec level is any less reliable.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

vxrcymru said:


> It feels a bit stronger through 3, 4, 5 & 6 and at the top end compared to stage 4.25.
> 
> But the compromise of a stock engine is that torque remains the same as stage 4. Ideally for a true stage 5 you want a forged engine and run 680 -700 ftlbs, that would no doubt make the car feel significantly quicker than a stage 4.
> 
> ...


ok fair play, great information from an experienced soul.. kind of what I suspected.. as nowadays its like 100bhp more, when not forged.

However I have a nice set of CP pistons in the house, just waiting for some rods to join them ha ha , and then maybe a build. as we all know, the torque is where the 'pull' neck snapping comes from.. and I kinda like that.

thanks vxrcymru :thumbsup:




barry P. said:


> Sensible advice here from Dylan unless you have a load of spare cash burning a hole in your pocket. As I've said previously for a predominantly road car the 4.25 stage spec is the place to be, with 670-680bhp available at this spec with Ecutek V5 it makes a lot of sense to use this as a quick, reliable road car.


 



Adamantium said:


> I agree although I've not seen any evidence to suggest that any higher spec level is any less reliable.


Shows how good the R35 engine is!


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> I agree although I've not seen any evidence to suggest that any higher spec level is any less reliable.


It's just rude to go stage 5 and limit the torque to what it would be at stage 4.25 for reliability reasons only to have a car that's not that much quicker to say 150 after spending a big wad of cash.

Forge is a must to get the best bang for buck with a stage 5.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

AdnanK said:


> It's just rude to go stage 5 and limit the torque to what it would be at stage 4.25 for reliability reasons only to have a car that's not that much quicker to say 150 after spending a big wad of cash.
> 
> Forge is a must to get the best bang for buck with a stage 5.


It's a slippery slope. To get the best from stage 5 as you say with built engine means spending another 6-7K, so you're spending a lot more buck for what could be only marginally more bang, see below.

If your car will never see track, 800bhp / 630lbft on stock motor should be reliable. If you build motor, you can add 50bhp and circa 60-70lbft more before the gearbox becomes a limitation. So the extra 70lbft cost £100 per lbft!

I decided to build my engine because it will see track, if it was road only I might chance it with stock engine because there are plenty of cars running worldwide at 750-800bhp on stock engines internals.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Anders_R35 said:


> It's a slippery slope. To get the best from stage 5 as you say with built engine means spending another 6-7K, so you're spending a lot more buck for what could be only marginally more bang, see below.
> If your car will never see track, 800bhp / 630lbft on stock motor should be reliable. If you build motor, you can add 50bhp and circa 60-70lbft more before the gearbox becomes a limitation. So the extra 70lbft cost £100 per lbft!
> I decided to build my engine because it will see track, if it was road only I might chance it with stock engine because there are plenty of cars running worldwide at 750-800bhp on stock engines internals.


and how does all this HIGH power compute with traction? on the road and track.... so you aren't tractioning all over the place.. aka spin.

in dry on road, and more importantly in wet on track and road.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

Chronos said:


> and how does all this HIGH power compute with traction? on the road and track.... so you aren't tractioning all over the place.. aka spin.


Amazingly well, on dry roads it rarely kicks in. If you're going down a rough B road then it can kick in, but stage 4.25 will do the same.

My car is running 806 / 630 at the moment, going for map tweak in a couple of weeks now engine has 1500 miles on it and plan to up power to circa 840 / 690. I'll report back if traction becomes an issue but I don't expect it will with a flat torque curve and linear power curve.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

Chronos said:


> in dry on road, and more importantly in wet on track and road.


Damp roads, no problem. One of my mates was amazed how it put power down when spitting rain. Wet road and my part worn Dunlops...not a chance. But then wet conditions aren't really the time to play with 800bhp+? 

First track day I did at Silverstone post upgrade was wet. Had to put it in R mode as it was kicking in a lot in normal mode, but track was soaking. In R mode care was required, but there's always the option to de-tune and lower boost...or wait to track dries enough.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

> First track day I did at Silverstone post upgrade was wet. Had to put it in R mode as it was kicking in a lot in normal mode, but track was soaking. In R mode care was required, but there's always the option to de-tune and lower boost...or wait to track dries enough.


[/QUOTE]

so whats the best mode on track and what tyres did you use? thanks.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

AdnanK said:


> It's just rude to go stage 5 and limit the torque to what it would be at stage 4.25 for reliability reasons only to have a car that's not that much quicker to say 150 after spending a big wad of cash.
> 
> Forge is a must to get the best bang for buck with a stage 5.


You think an extra 100bhp won't make it much quicker to 150mph?

Think you might be wrong there.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

Chronos said:


> so whats the best mode on track and what tyres did you use? thanks.


In the wet I used R mode traction / gearbox, comfort suspension. I had Dunlops so wasn't going very fast on wet corners. 

In dry conditions, all R mode. 

Forgot to say I have Litchfield suspension too which must help deploy power with the superior dampening.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> You think an extra 100bhp won't make it much quicker to 150mph?
> 
> Think you might be wrong there.


Yes, I don't think it would make it much quicker compared to a stage 4.25 than most people think to 150, not with the similar torque numbers.

Happy to be proven wrong.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

try this:

0-60, 0-100 & 1/4 Mile Calculator :: TorqueStats Modified

It's very rough, in fact it's pessimistic.

Try it with 650 and with 800 bhp and check out the terminal velocity in the quarter. The difference is significant.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

I like that tool


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> try this:
> 
> 0-60, 0-100 & 1/4 Mile Calculator :: TorqueStats Modified
> 
> ...


So about 1/2 a second, terminal velocity is 139 so approx 45ft ahead in real world terms.

Iain said he's happy for stock internal cars to run 775/640 on his manifold thread and provide a warranty.

Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Adamantium said:


> try this:
> 
> 0-60, 0-100 & 1/4 Mile Calculator :: TorqueStats Modified
> 
> ...


may be a bit heavier?

Remember when I got my R35 weighed @ stage 4.25 ha ha
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/354169-h...-r35-gt-r-weigh-i-went-find-out-pictures.html


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