# FAO Anyone with an axe to grind



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

I am not the mediator of your personal affairs. 
I do not offer any responsibility for your personal shortcomings. 
I do not offer judgmental services as a hobby nor do I offer 'preferential treatment' to anyone.

A certain PM I received was frankly appalling but did nothing other than demonstrate the typical pack mentality forums quite often suffer from. What my discussions with third parties have to do with others is anybody's guess but the disclosure of private information was distasteful at best. I suggest some people keep out of it.

I am getting quite fed up of having to justify my reasons to those who are blinkered enough to understand there is only 'their' way. I am caught between a rock and a hard place and nobody gives a damn for anything other their selfish needs.

I closed a thread by Matt J because I was asked to by Abbey Motorsport for reasons I stated personally to Matt. 

I asked this discussion be kept offline. 

If it's not the bloody tuners asking me to remove threads, it's the users asking me why I'm the tuners' puppet! I can't win, really - I can't!!

If you don't like the way I earnestly try to moderate this site, then frankly I don't care. I try my best to appease the userbase here but it's blatantly obvious trying to please everyone is a futile exercise.

Newera are often bold enough to tackle claims head on publicly. I am not a ringside referee and I do not encourage public grudge matches. If Abbey choose to tackle their affairs in alternative methods that involve the cooperation of the forum, then so be it - honestly, I don't get paid enough to have to worry about the potential thought of litigation whilst the minority take out their popcorn.

More tomorrow after I've had some sleep...


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## chas (Sep 19, 2003)

Blow Dog said:


> I try my best to appease the userbase here but it's blatantly obvious trying to please everyone is a futile exercise.


I don't know anything about thread you mentioned but I'll bet the majority of the userbase of this forum are more than happy with the mods.
I've learned more about my car on this site than anywhere else, IMHO the best car site on the net by a mile.


Charlie.


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Mate I honestly dont know why you bother with this place, quality has gone downhill since the early days, the place is full of retarded numpties dreaming of 1000bhp and the fastest 1/4 mile!! why dont you just close the forum and enjoy your life with your family, why stress over some virtual forum?


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## MeLLoN Stu (Jun 9, 2005)

Note to self, never let Adey be responsible for my business interests.  

Just goes to prove you can't please everyone all the time Cem, at the end of the day it's all pretty insignificant anyway in the grand scheme of things, more so if you don't enjoy it (Don't get me wrong I'm sure you do the majority of the time). 

Every forum will have people with grudges, and we all know it can get messy especially when there's folks with a vested financial interest such as advertisers or sponsors, it's always more evident on single marque forums for some reason, where people are quick to their guns in terms of saluting or slandering their preferred or most loathed "specialists" respectively and sides are formed. One of the reasons I've tended to keep away from them aside of here these days.

One possible solution would be a pistonheads style heavy handed (imo but I can see their rationale) "no bad reviews or you'll be tarred and feathered at dawn" but it's increased work for the mods and frustrating for the mortals who want to get impartial reviews, forum censorship is rarely a positive thing aside of keeping the lawyers away.

Take a break fella, where there's an argument there's always going to be 2 sides slinging mud at eachother, and still the referee will always get boo'd the most. An unfortunate cross to bear but rest assured the majority of us here are very grateful for a generally sensible community which I'm sure has proved as invaluable and entertaining to others as it has to me. 

Chin up, as they say


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Sorry guys.
Appreciate the concerns but it's not about me. I'll add some later...


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## chris singleton (Jul 20, 2005)

I'm normally all for taking it off line and settling things between the two parties but after reading Matt's post I'd genuinely like to hear the rebuttle as there were some fairly harsh claims being made. That said, it's between Matt and Abbey and really is none of my business either  

Simply "vaping" the post as if it never existed will only make people think that there's something to hide. 

I do agree that you are dammed if you do and dammed if you don't though. 

Chris


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## Racer GT-R (Nov 15, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> I closed a thread by Matt J because I was asked to by Abbey Motorsport for reasons I stated personally to Matt.


Haven't found any closed thread here started recently by Matt J. 
Has it been deleted or hidden from view? Why?


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## Tommy F (Oct 31, 2005)

I seen the post and i think that everyone should be able to see it,then they can make up there own mind.

Matt has spent big money with that tuner and is not just a new member i dont think its fair for it to be pulled 

looks to me like the tuner has something to hide


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Another idea would be to ban all forms of trader advertisment and fund the forum by charging each member say £10 a year. That would reduce the amount of time watsters that join, and tuning companies would not be able to hold owners and mods by the balls and dictate how to run the forum and what posts should be sensored.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

I'm not quite sure whether this is aimed at me personally or not but;

I spoke to Cem and Durzel and as far as I am aware everything was sorted.
I respected the decision which was made, I may have thought the _reason_ behind the decision was wrong but that's not Cem's fault and I left it at that.

Cem, I can assure you that, to the best of my knowledge, the only person acting on my behalf is my solicitor and he isn't a Skyline fan. (Actually he prefers Porsche I think, but don't hold that against him!)

Definitely interested as to what is being said for obvious reasons;
I've PM'd my number to Durzel and if you want to discuss this further then please call me. 

Matt.


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

The best and fairest way would be to adopt a similar policy to that on Welcome to the mazdarotaryclub.com website 

Namely, an individual with a grivience posts his side of the story *once*, the thread is them locked and made into a sticky until the defendant gets his chance to respond. One post each. Should anyone else add their comments before the mods lock it, they're deleted. Everyone knows the rules (There's a sticky to state them).

This way, pack mentality fights don't ensue on the forums and there's far less bickering, making way for a much friendlier community as a whole. 

It makes sense.

Miguel.


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## harris2182 (Nov 13, 2006)

agree with newera. im a member on mrc and it does work well.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Newera said:


> The best and fairest way would be to adopt a similar policy to that on Welcome to the mazdarotaryclub.com website
> 
> Namely, an individual with a grivience posts his side of the story *once*, the thread is them locked and made into a sticky until the defendant gets his chance to respond. One post each. Should anyone else add their comments before the mods lock it, they're deleted. Everyone knows the rules (There's a sticky to state them).
> 
> ...


Miguel,

If it works there then I'm happy to adopt this policy here - even though you've suggested it previously.
Every single company in the world makes mistakes. Demo Media even makes mistakes sometimes. However, it is not nice when these mistakes are publicised on a forum for the masses to comment on. There is a pack mentality on all forums and a topic that has nothing to do with anyone is suddenly in the interests of all.

I will publicly announce right now that I DO NOT have any loyalty to any trader, either as a paying subscriber or otherwise. This forum is absolutely 100% independent and there are no hidden or secret support agendas. 

For what it's worth to those who misquoted me, I never said I was threatened legally - this is a lie. What I did say was that there was a legal case pending and as a result, I did not want the GTR Register to have anything to do with it. Honestly, in terms of priority, some stranger's legal battle against a tuner is not high on my list!

HOWEVER....

I think it's imperative that the commercial entities of this forum know that this is a tight knit community and people are just as happy to praise as they are to criticise. The winners are always those that can challenge any feeling of discontent publicly so as to either prove their innocence, or accept their wrongdoings.

I DO want people to be able to discuss their experiences - both good and bad - but this is almost always impossible to moderate as we have absolutely no idea of knowing who is telling the truth. We can be moderators, but we cannot be judge and jury.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Tommy F said:


> I seen the post and i think that everyone should be able to see it,then they can make up there own mind.
> 
> Matt has spent big money with that tuner and is not just a new member i dont think its fair for it to be pulled
> 
> looks to me like the tuner has something to hide



Tommy

you miss the point

The forum can be held responsible for content posted.

we have no time or duty to get proof of who's in the right and who's in the wrong.

No doubt, if Matt has issues with Abbey, it will all come out in the wash, but until then you can't expect Cem to be judge and Jury.

hope that makes sense? In the meantime please be aware that as moderators, we have everyones best interests at heart.

mook


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> Miguel,
> 
> If it works there then I'm happy to adopt this policy here - even though you've suggested it previously.
> Every single company in the world makes mistakes. Demo Media even makes mistakes sometimes. However, it is not nice when these mistakes are publicised on a forum for the masses to comment on. There is a pack mentality on all forums and a topic that has nothing to do with anyone is suddenly in the interests of all.


Glad to hear this Cem. I'm sure it'll be a very positive step.

Miguel


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## Luckham (Nov 10, 2005)

Adey said:


> Mate I honestly dont know why you bother with this place, quality has gone downhill since the early days, the place is full of retarded numpties dreaming of 1000bhp and the fastest 1/4 mile!! why dont you just close the forum and enjoy your life with your family, why stress over some virtual forum?


Nice stance..  

That's a bit of a sweeping statement don't you think? 

I'm sure that there are a lot of people on here that would disagree with you, who still feel that this site still has a lot to offer.



chas said:


> I've learned more about my car on this site than anywhere else, IMHO the best car site on the net by a mile.
> 
> 
> Charlie.


Here Here..


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Adey said:


> Mate I honestly dont know why you bother with this place, quality has gone downhill since the early days


Because Cem OWNS this forum mate.

Anyway, early days? Feb '07 was when you joined! Unless your are someone else.... 

:chuckle:


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

Adey said:


> Mate I honestly dont know why you bother with this place, quality has gone downhill since the early days, why dont you just close the forum and enjoy your life with your family, why stress over some virtual forum?


Sounds like the sort of thing "Yunis" used to say.
So why are you here?

I dont think personal grievance`s have any place on a public forum, its not anyone else`s business. Just my two Pence worth.


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## SmigzyGTR (Mar 20, 2006)

Trev said:


> Anyway, early days? Feb '07 was when you joined! Unless your are someone else....
> 
> :chuckle:


Maybe since last week?


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Pic of Blow Dog with an axe to grind:


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

hodgie said:


> I dont think personal grievance`s have any place on a public forum, its not anyone else`s business.


Fully agree, it's never helpful to either party.

Phil


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Totally agree. The most interesting thing is you only ever see the disputes and rants and opposing views. You never see the acceptance of one side (or both) being wrong, nor the apologies and/or correction. Surely a better way would be to resolve any differences you have directly. THIS is a car forum not Watchdog! Once it's been concluded surely it would then be okay to publish the outcome if it was in the general interst but that's about all.


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## xaero1 (Feb 9, 2004)

I _don't_ think this place has gone downhill in the time I've been here. 

There always have been, and always will be small minded idiots on here who express their opinions on arguments that have nothing to do with them... but, the majority of users on here are level headed, mature adults who share similar interests and passions. 

Yes threads can get a bit lively, but that's why the forum is so entertaining. When it comes to arguments between members, traders, tuners though, I personally think all threads should be modded in the way that Miguel suggested. 

Keep it up guys, and Cem, don't lose heart


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

I'm personally conflicted about this sort of thing because I have had experience on both sides of the fence.

I had a big problem with a tuner when I had my R33 GTR which resulted in me having to pay thousands of pounds to correct it (with Abbey ironically), had I known about the original tuner beforehand through posts on here (it turned out I wasn't alone in experiencing shoddy work from them) then I probably wouldn't have taken my car there to begin with, and I certainly wouldn't be out of pocket several thousand.

Because of this experience I don't personally like the idea of automatic censorship of posts because it presents a skewed perspective of the tuner. If you only ever hear good things about them then you're going to make a decision armed with only some of the facts - and that's not good. Having read Matts post I must say I can't think of a justification for what happened if they are indeed 100% true as presented.

I also don't like the idea of tuners instantly threatening (legally or otherwise) the forum as soon as things like this come up. If they can't/won't defend their corner then questions surely have to be asked about whether or not the reason they're unprepared to engage in a "right to reply" _is_ because their position is untenable and that some/all of what has been said is actually true. Certainly food for thought.

The flip side of the coin is that I am conscious that there are a number of people who have allegiances to tuners - some more public than others. I certainly wouldn't put it past certain individuals to muddy the name of a rival tuner simply to try and redirect business from them to whichever tuner they're allied with. In that respect it is so difficult to moderate fairly because if we stifle all feedback then it's seen as censorship or that "the tuners have the forum in their pocket", but conversely if we just allow people to slander companies then the buck stops with Cem when legal avenues are persued.

I think Miguels suggestion is the best comprimise I've seen so far, hopefully Cem will implement that.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

hodgie said:


> Sounds like the sort of thing "Yunis" used to say.
> So why are you here?



Ollam69 to be precise

Ban hammer pending....


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## Nismoalex (Sep 24, 2003)

This isnt a pop at Cem or the forum whatsoever before I start. I think they do their upmost to keep everything in line which is a hard task at the best of times. However.....

I dont hear any moaning when everyone is raving and ranting about a tuner.... yet when someone has something bad to say they're silenced.

Forums like this one have pretty much single handedly boosted the success of many companies who advertise on here and even some who do not. Many reputations have been built here by loyal members passing on good reviews. Therefore, you cant expect to take all the good reviews and silence the rest. Mistakes are made by even the best out there, but if members are kind enough to pass on good reviews on the forum... then why should they not be able to view their opinions when things go wrong. Afterall it is just an opinion. 

Apologies for spelling and grammer, no time to write this but had to quickly type something . 

Over and out .

P.s. Cem...... Ban 'em...... Ban 'em alllll........ hahaha


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

I always assumed Ollam69 was Yunis anyway.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

the Ip's never matched, but we had our suspicions

mook


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Too many coincidences. No two arseholes could be that much alike.


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## mava_rules (Feb 22, 2006)

cem, dont let it get to you, its not worth it. at the end of the day your decision is final, until somebody, if ever, takes your place.
you do what you think is right at the time, if anyone doesnt like it they can fck off elsewhere.
i do however agree with the other points raised about tuners feedback, any way of having a poll where people "vote" for the best tuner or who they have gone to, as long as it doesnt get abused.
just my thoughts for what theyre worth lol.


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## Racer GT-R (Nov 15, 2006)

Durzel said:


> I'm personally conflicted about this sort of thing because I have had experience on both sides of the fence.


There's another side of the fence you've not mentioned Durzel (This has no relevance at all to Matt j's issue here btw!)

When a member deliberately uses the forum to unfairly cause damage to a trader. It doesn't take a lot of brain cells to understand that by staling a trader and running his name through mud, you can cause potentially damage to his business. 

And at what cost to this rogue member? None, virtually -as unlike the trader he doesn't have a business that may in part depend on the custom of others who frequent this forum. So he has far less to lose.

Clearly being a domain accessible by all public, this forum's owner has a duty to moderate and stop such damage being allowed to happen. Being the only one with the power to moderate or cause moderation - If the owner allows such, then he may find himself very legally liable. 

I daresay a court of law would also consider the case that if a trader pays a considerable sum each year for the priviledge of selling goods, then he should be given some protection by the forum owner against such malicious damage.

So there's good reasons why Cem must consider the other side of the coin too.

I also think Miguel's suggestion is good. Maybe not the perfect solution, but better for all parties concerned, except the trouble makers of course...


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

moleman said:


> Too many coincidences. No two arseholes could be that much alike.


AHAHAHAHAHAH - that's too funny!


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Durzel said:


> I also don't like the idea of tuners instantly threatening (legally or otherwise) the forum as soon as things like this come up. If they can't/won't defend their corner then questions surely have to be asked about whether or not the reason they're unprepared to engage in a "right to reply" _is_ because their position is untenable and that some/all of what has been said is actually true. Certainly food for thought.


This is definitely food for thought and a pretty accurate assessment of what goes through my mind whenever I get an email threatening me with legal action. 

To be honest, I get about 6 legal threats a year from various known and unknown entities. Most of them I just tell them to **** off as they frankly have absolutely no idea about the law so I treat the threats with utter contempt. But there are others that use their solicitors often so are used to threatening small fish like us and as a result I'm inclined to remove it.


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## myline (Dec 10, 2005)

certain areas on this forum get very bully boy,

it's a car forum,

maybe that's what it should stay and cut the crap as some people love their own opinions too much.

you are not the first mod to get peed off with it.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Not understanding the full story of whats brought this on, I do feel both sides should have there say as it sounds bad to the rest of us who use Abbey. Im amazed that who ever has had this problem with them cannot sit down with Scott, Mark or Tony and sort this out-there a good bunch.

Just my 2p


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## jae (Aug 28, 2002)

*Thanks Cem for Handling a Thankless Task*

Without bias.

However, much as I see the pros and cons, I really wonder, given the number of Skylines in the UK and the number of regulars on here, if it really matters if a forum member kicks off about a tuning company?

Personally I am not interested. I have chosen my tuner and that's it. I come on here for enlightening discussion and entertainment. All I see of late is trivia, petty minded whinging and mud slinging. But then again, I do contribute my fair share of said, so guilty as charged. 

My vote? You have a problem, talk to the tuner first. Then if nothing results and you feel it should be known, PM Cem or a moderator before posting. Miguel's suggestion seems good, with the possible addition of a separate 'Issues With' forum area where all posts are moderated before appearing. This would be the place for scammer warnings, problems with traders, private sellers et al and the moderator filter would stop the mud slinging. Of course, this would place an additional onus on the ever so nice moderators. Which they could delegate to the non Skyline owning members... Penance for heresy an' all that. :chuckle:


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Someone's been messing with the DAAWWWGGG!
No one messes with the DAAAWWWGGG!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

myline said:


> certain areas on this forum get very bully boy,
> 
> it's a car forum,
> 
> ...


firstly, its BLOW DOG'S car forum (he runs and owns this gaff)

and therefore, for him to be Pee'd off with it is pretty big news.

if the Dawg pulls the plug, we all suffer. So i suggest we all form an orderly queue to kiss his arse!

 

mook


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Nevermind the tuners or the owners, can we please all get together a lawsuit against Sony for Gran Tourismo and the effect it has had on our cumulative wallets. I mean in GT you can spend your credits and instantly your GTR has 1000bhp, is fast on track and can be bounced off walls without damage. 

Based on these representations I did the same with some real-life credits and found instead that the car took months to arrive, cost more credits than anticipated and when bounced off walls (well actually a bus) it most certainly did not just carry on..........  

Do we have a case?

Guy


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Guy said:


> Based on these representations I did the same with some real-life credits and found instead that the car took months to arrive, cost more credits than anticipated and when bounced off walls (well actually a bus) it most certainly did not just carry on..........
> 
> Do we have a case?
> 
> Guy


FPMSL ! Evening Guy :chuckle:


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## 323ian (Jun 26, 2006)

Guy that is pure magic!!!!!!!!!!


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Guy said:


> Nevermind the tuners or the owners, can we please all get together a lawsuit against Sony for Gran Tourismo and the effect it has had on our cumulative wallets. I mean in GT you can spend your credits and instantly your GTR has 1000bhp, is fast on track and can be bounced off walls without damage.
> 
> Based on these representations I did the same with some real-life credits and found instead that the car took months to arrive, cost more credits than anticipated and when bounced off walls (well actually a bus) it most certainly did not just carry on..........
> 
> ...


ROTFLMAO:chuckle: 

Not to mention the fact that track day competitors are less than happy when you shunt them off into walls.


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

Mookistar said:


> Ollam69 to be precise
> 
> Ban hammer pending....


I always believed it was Yunis, Ban the asshole.:chuckle: :banned:


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Fuggles said:


> Pic of Blow Dog with an axe to grind:


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Luckham said:


> Nice stance..
> 
> That's a bit of a sweeping statement don't you think?
> 
> ...


well it does have a great purpose, but members should be controlled, not just let any chav join up.


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

hodgie said:


> Sounds like the sort of thing "Yunis" used to say.
> So why are you here?
> 
> I dont think personal grievance`s have any place on a public forum, its not anyone else`s business. Just my two Pence worth.


Lol I dont know why when any one makes a challenge or does not conform to "GTROC" way of thinking this person becomes a Yunis? who is this guy anyway? is he some kind of ghost that haunts this forum?  

Yunis in turkish means a dolphin or a whale:chuckle:


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Adey said:


> well it does have a great purpose, but members should be controlled, not just let any chav join up.


Ban him just for using the 'chav' word.


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Blow Dog said:


> This is definitely food for thought and a pretty accurate assessment of what goes through my mind whenever I get an email threatening me with legal action.
> 
> To be honest, I get about 6 legal threats a year from various known and unknown entities. Most of them I just tell them to **** off as they frankly have absolutely no idea about the law so I treat the threats with utter contempt. But there are others that use their solicitors often so are used to threatening small fish like us and as a result I'm inclined to remove it.


Dude, I really do feel for you under the circumstances. Why should they hold you responsible? because you as an owner of this forum an easy target thats why.

I would be tough with anyone who threatens you with legal action, ban them from the forum and terminate their advertisment contract. 

Good luck and if you need any legal advise, I can put you intouch with someone.


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Ban him just for using the 'chav' word.


 Dont tell them that!! Can I bribe you with some beer and bacon sandwiches??:chuckle:


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## bkvj (Feb 13, 2006)

Guy said:


> Nevermind the tuners or the owners, can we please all get together a lawsuit against Sony for Gran Tourismo and the effect it has had on our cumulative wallets. I mean in GT you can spend your credits and instantly your GTR has 1000bhp, is fast on track and can be bounced off walls without damage.
> 
> Based on these representations I did the same with some real-life credits and found instead that the car took months to arrive, cost more credits than anticipated and when bounced off walls (well actually a bus) it most certainly did not just carry on..........
> 
> ...


:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :banned:


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Adey said:


> Dont tell them that!! Can I bribe you with some beer and bacon sandwiches??:chuckle:


Would you be able to afford that after paying the rent for your caravan?


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> This is definitely food for thought and a pretty accurate assessment of what goes through my mind whenever I get an email threatening me with legal action.
> 
> To be honest, I get about 6 legal threats a year from various known and unknown entities. Most of them I just tell them to **** off as they frankly have absolutely no idea about the law so I treat the threats with utter contempt. But there are others that use their solicitors often so are used to threatening small fish like us and as a result I'm inclined to remove it.


So it's your fault if someone comes on the board and criticises a garage/tuner? The law is an arse.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

jae said:


> My vote? You have a problem, talk to the tuner first. Then if nothing results and you feel it should be known, PM Cem or a moderator before posting.


Don't be fooled into thinking I posted a thread just for the sake of it, the party involved was given plenty of warning regarding publication prior to legal action.
If you'd read the thread (which sadly, it would now appear that you never will) then you'd know why it was posted and how long it's been going on.

The tuner inolved was never named but chose to expose themselves, implied I was not telling the truth and had it deleted immediately. There was no counter to any of my 'claims' which I think is why so many of the people who read it are asking questions...

I certainly have no axe to grind with anyone I offered several times to reach an amicable solution/conclusion (not just in writing) and now it's in the hands of the solicitors.
There's no need for any further threats to/from anyone, Cem has done a great job with this forum and the only thing I'll say further to this is the results, win or loose.
I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong, if that's the outcome.

Ce la vie.


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

jae said:


> Without bias.
> 
> My vote? You have a problem, talk to the tuner first. Then if nothing results and you feel it should be known, PM Cem or a moderator before posting. Miguel's suggestion seems good, with the possible addition of a separate 'Issues With' forum area where all posts are moderated before appearing. This would be the place for scammer warnings, problems with traders, private sellers et al and the moderator filter would stop the mud slinging. Of course, this would place an additional onus on the ever so nice moderators. Which they could delegate to the non Skyline owning members... Penance for heresy an' all that. :chuckle:


Some more good ideas there, jae. Sound ways to stop people mis-using the forum.

Miguel


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## Racer GT-R (Nov 15, 2006)

matt j said:


> Don't be fooled into thinking I posted a thread just for the sake of it, the party involved was given plenty of warning regarding publication prior to legal action.
> If you'd read the thread (which sadly, it would now appear that you never will) then you'd know why it was posted and how long it's been going on.
> 
> The tuner inolved was never named but chose to expose themselves, implied I was not telling the truth and had it deleted immediately. There was no counter to any of my 'claims' which I think is why so many of the people who read it are asking questions...
> ...


I think we can read between the lines as to why Cem had to pull the thread you started, Matt j. It's a necessary evil at this stage since Cem clearly doesn't want the forum to become involved in legal wrangles. 

Assuming you've been wronged by the company concerned and you do get satisfaction through the legal system, you'll be able to post the complete story (Perhaps in a new section jae talked about above) without anyone worrying about any potential legal issues associated.


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Good luck Matt, Hope you get compensated by the company who who you have had problems with. Most find it to easy to fob off customers, keep the pressure on them dont let them back out if you truly believe you have been screwed over, naming and shaming is the best way imo.


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

Somebody mentioned earlier in this thread about the damage that could be caused to the reputation of any said company with their name being dragged into battles (naming and shaming), and how it could permanently damage them.
There are a lot of people here that just throw money at tuners like there is no tomorrow, but their are also people that can only just afford to keep their cars maintained to that standard..
I would like to see a better system where the small fry have a chance to choose their tuner/supplier with an available history at hand of good and bad feedback. All companies make mistakes, but its how they go about their business that makes the difference. 
A rating system (just a simple accumatilive %) would suffice, just like e-bay feedback , but no comments needed. And if its really necessary to "air" problems, a proper area with only one answer-one question at a time thread between the tuner and customer until the problem has been resolved. It would be in the interests of the tuner to comply in an appropriate manner(as would the customer) no posts removed or edited, and see how these people are going to go about fixing the problem...If the tuner can't do that then maybe they don't care much for ALL their customers (not just the rich and stupid ones) and that they dont deserve to be here anyway,paying or not.


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

I agree with you on that point, people seem to throw money left right and centre at their fave tuner, bigging them up with wild signatures, bowing down to them and kissing their ass... its a case of an open cheque book syndrome.

Majority of business these tuning companies are getting is thanks to the forum, yet when they have an issue they quickly try to gag Cem, have the post removed and make legal threats.

As I said before if tuners take the legal stance, throw them off the board and ban them indefinately!

Mistakes happen, if a issue has been brought to the attention of other members and onto the forum, let the tuner defend their case, if they are screwing a customer over then we should know about it!


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Adey said:


> I agree with you on that point, people seem to throw money left right and centre at their fave tuner, bigging them up with wild signatures, bowing down to them and kissing their ass... *its a case of an open cheque book syndrome*.


In some cases maybe, but DEFINITELY *not* all.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

A good suggestion Paul. I understand the position Cem is in with regards to legalities etc. Notwithstanding this there is also a case for a section, as you describe, whereby folks can look into and see the feedback for tuners/advertisers on this forum. As you say, upkeep of Skylines is far from cheap and this is made worse when choosing a tuner/specialist with less than satisfactory customer feedback.
Now, in my time of owning performance cars I have had the pleasure of dealing with tuners who knew the true meaning of 'customer service' and some who, quite frankly, still lived in the stone-age. As owners of these vehicles I think its everyones duty (responsibility is too harsh!) to make other owners aware of the good and the bad aspects of individual companies. Lets not be naive to think that a lot of folks dont PM each other with good/bad stories of whats going on out there or talk to each other at meets etc. Just because its not posted up doesnt mean it doesnt go on.

There HAS to be a way for folks, especially new owners, to make an informed choice of tuner/specialist to look after their car if they cant do it themselves.


Just my 2pworth.

TT


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> A good suggestion Paul. I understand the position Cem is in with regards to legalities etc. Notwithstanding this there is also a case for a section, as you describe, whereby folks can look into and see the feedback for tuners/advertisers on this forum. As you say, upkeep of Skylines is far from cheap and this is made worse when choosing a tuner/specialist with less than satisfactory customer feedback.
> Now, in my time of owning performance cars I have had the pleasure of dealing with tuners who knew the true meaning of 'customer service' and some who, quite frankly, still lived in the stone-age. As owners of these vehicles I think its everyones duty (responsibility is too harsh!) to make other owners aware of the good and the bad aspects of individual companies. Lets not be naive to think that a lot of folks dont PM each other with good/bad stories of whats going on out there or talk to each other at meets etc. Just because its not posted up doesnt mean it doesnt go on.
> 
> There HAS to be a way for folks, especially new owners, to make an informed choice of tuner/specialist to look after their car if they cant do it themselves.
> ...


Yep, agree with all of that. I know for a fact that people discuss problems with tuners at meets and stuff, and there are plenty with many a story but dont ever say anything on here. Unfortunately, being polite or not wishing to air views doesn't help the next poor soul. These issues need to be addressed.


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

*Smoking guns.*

Well, its none of my business and wasn`t going to post however......
To me, any company that asks for a thread to be removed, threatens to withdraw their advertising or threatens a site owner with legal action etc have obviously got something to hide. I think this action alone speaks volumes about any companies attitude.
Quite simply, we are all intelligent people who can make our own minds up. The person with the beef can post up about it if they like and the garage concerned can reply or choose to ignore.
Simple really. 
We are well aware of how the internet can definately have a huge impact on business in real life nowadays however i think to call on the site owners to have any negativity removed without a valid response would be more harmful to that business than the post itself.
Before anyone says that they have a business to run and can`t find the time to look on here to answer to criticism, they perhaps should think about the time it takes to contact the owner ask to have things removed. Time to read.......time to respond surely.
I think a simple note from the moderators saying a thread has been closed at the request of......is a not bad idea. The "viewers" can make up their own minds after that. 
Just my 2p.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

^I'm with zippy.


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

lol on that note, 21 PPY was up for sale but they want 10K for it, was tempted for about a nanosecond at that price!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

i think, however, it needs to remain clear the difference between an isolated incident and a common theme.

Take Keighley trade centre. even if they advertised on here, there would be very little we could do about the wave of negativity surrounding them

on the other hand take Newera. dealing worldwide and being very busy can expose flaws in communication and understandings, and a few threads have popped up over the years highlighting this....

...but, like Jason touches on, they always replied in the public dommain, contacted mods to discuss the situation, and always tried to explain themselves, even if it felt like a lost casue. Kudos to them for that

what i'm saying is this.

If matt's case is isolated, then i hope it gets sorted, but if a common theme emerges from our regular userbase, then, no matter how hard we try, reputations will, quite rightly, be tarnished.

Hope thats not the case, as we are all enthusiasts together, and as such demand/deserve to be aided in our passion by those who hold all the cards.

Mook


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

I would say that tuners/traders/importers need to be transparent and need to be accountable if they make a mistake.

If a situation arises where a customer chooses, after first attempting to resolve the situation with the tuner/trader/importer, to air his views then fair enough. However, once litigation has begun neither party has the right to bring it to the forum until resolved as far as I am concerned. I think this is very unfair to Cem.

Once resolved, again, fair enough.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

moleman said:


> I would say that tuners/traders/importers need to be transparent and need to be accountable if they make a mistake.
> 
> If a situation arises where a customer chooses, after first attempting to resolve the situation with the tuner/trader/importer, to air his views then fair enough. However, once litigation has begun neither party has the right to bring it to the forum until resolved as far as I am concerned. I think this is very unfair to Cem.
> 
> Once resolved, again, fair enough.




What a bloody good lawyer you would make:chuckle:


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## Hi5 (Aug 31, 2005)

Very interesting that Abbey asked for the thread to be removed, more so that it was.

I would be interested to know why Cem/gtr.co.uk would be liable for anything?


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

I think only in as much that Cem is responsible for the site's content regardless of the source.


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## Hi5 (Aug 31, 2005)

in the respect of copyright, yes, but is that really the case where the content is a seperate parties view/post?

It would be good if someone in the legal profession could actually clarify about this, perhaps with some info on precedents set in this area.

The reason i ask about this is that there are other forums, i.e. ones regarding telecoms companies, service providers etc which usually contain a majority of posts which arent favourable to those companies, and have been going for years.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Hi5 said:


> It would be good if someone in the legal profession could actually clarify about this, perhaps with some info on precedents set in this area.


Agreed.


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

*hmm......*

I have seen on other forums a disclaimer that the views expressed by those blah blah are not the views represented by the owners/administrators etc etc.
I think they have done this to stop the sort of crap Cem is having to deal with. Not in the legal profession so i am stating this as a question rather than fact.


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## Hi5 (Aug 31, 2005)

Those disclaimers arent worth the bits their written in, and usually only affect the liability between the site and you. However, no disclaimer is greater than statutory law


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

point the finger at the latest trader on here and you'll get asked to 'keep it off the forum' and the thread is closed


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Andy W said:


> point the finger at the latest trader on here and you'll get asked to 'keep it off the forum' and the thread is closed



**** off:GrowUp:


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Andy your such a wind up merchant!!


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

TREG said:


> **** off:GrowUp:


take a look 

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/82241-twenierobs-mapping.html


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy if i were you i would go and see them.
You seem to be very angry in yourself.
Just pop down and see them. I am sure they would love to talk to you about this matter.


Mick


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

as i said to you via PM, i have no need. i built it, i watched it be mapped elsewhere, i saw it run for 18 months without fault. i know whats happened.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

:chuckle: :chuckle: If you have an axe to grind Andy you certainly put it in the correct thread.
Click on page one. :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: 



Mick


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Andy W said:


> as i said to you via PM, i have no need. i built it, i watched it be mapped elsewhere, i saw it run for 18 months without fault. i know whats happened.



Well then why would you quote ( i saw it run for 18 months without fault)
Get it mapped again
And this is my last post on this as i have better things to do than do this shit.

Mick


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

m6beg said:


> Well then why would you quote ( i saw it run for 18 months without fault)
> Get it mapped again
> And this is my last post on this as i have better things to do than do this shit.
> 
> Mick



you obviously never read what the owner said  

i posted on this thread because people were saying the the the original topic shouldn't of been closed 

but other 'tuners' who are flavour of the month and get a 'bad' press have the threads closed and bugger all is said


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

There's nowt like a thread hyjack...


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

What about the individual who chooses to use garageX because there are no threads relating to how poor their service was? He gets shit service and doesn`t post because he either thinks its a one-off or that he will get jumped-on by the blind-with-fat-wallet brigade?

This forum does seem to pander to one particular vendor, when I know of numerous horror stories surrounding them (and have experienced them for myself - shall I post pictures?)


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## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

Andy i can quite happily say that there was no contact between me or anyone from PT to the admin about that thread. 
Is it common practise to slag off other companies when you are setting up a more permanent business and trying to get in with a competitor....
You obviously have an axe to grind with us, general feeling from everyone i have discussed it with (including your own customers that get mapping done by me) is that you are trying to rubbish our name to 'get in' with someone else.
I can understand that you may be upset that a car you maintain has expired, but as time goes on there is much more to it than meets the eye.
Lots of people have approached me at shows and meets asking what your problem is and how one sided your views were, none of them knew that not only had the car done another 700miles but it had also covered a day (atleast) at santa pod after i mapped it.
Ironically..... last week i had a car booked in for mapping, it was booked in on tuesday. This car has been mapped elsewhere but the owner has never really been happy. He gave us a call through a reccomendation and booked the car in.
On the sunday night i got a call from a friend of mine saying i shouldnt expect the car in on tuesday as it is now running on 5 cylinders and had left a meet to go home. Low and behold monday morning that phone call came, no compression on cyl 6 and low on 5.

Now then  Lets just say that the engine had lasted 3 more days Who would have blown teh car up?, the owner (who has a garage) said there had been no signs of any compression drop. 
Now i am sure there will be people who will say BS, however this particular car is very well known at all the shows and will be back out next year after the garage has rebuilt it.

I stick by what i said, i would never let a car go out that would cause problems by my work. The dyno graphs match the AFR i tune to, to give myself extra safety i dont use the dyno Wideband to map cars with i use an independant device. The dyno wideband is purely for my records (which in this case matches perfectly).

I stand by what i wrote before and it still stands today, dont be foolish enough to think i would let a car go out unsafe. It would be like suggesting you would let a car go out with loose wheelnuts.
It is the whole reason i log AFR, go out on the road to check everything is ok after i dyno map it and check what tune the car is in before i map it.
The car came to me with a knock count of 70 showing on the hand controller outside the workshop before i had even touched it, it certainly didnt have that when it left 

Cheers

Rob


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

tweenierob said:


> Andy i can quite happily say that there was no contact between me or anyone from PT to the admin about that thread.
> Is it common practise to slag off other companies when you are setting up a more permanent business and trying to get in with a competitor....
> You obviously have an axe to grind with us, general feeling from everyone i have discussed it with (including your own customers that get mapping done by me) is that you are trying to rubbish our name to 'get in' with someone else.
> I can understand that you may be upset that a car you maintain has expired, but as time goes on there is much more to it than meets the eye.
> ...


70 on the commander is quite frankly a crock of shite

explain how you get that reading from it when the lad switched off the engine BEFORE he came into your workshop

getting in with someone else ? please explain ?

i had a call from the lad just after his '2' hour mapping session telling me the results you had said to him the car was running fine no strange noises from the engine at all ran it got 382 @ wheels, you fiddled with it got 20 more

it had about 4 runs at the pod at Rotorstock. other people also said that the engine note wasn't as crisp as the test day the lad was at 2 weeks earlier and the times were certianly no quicker either

your the mapper i'm not. where is the engine most likely to suffer with Det ? top of the revs ? how often in only 700 miles do you think the car would be above 6000rpm on UK roads in traffic


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Andy W said:


> take a look
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/82241-twenierobs-mapping.html


this was locked becasue it looked like you clearly hadn't picked up the phone and tried to sort it out like an adult.

also, Rob and claudio both replied with explanations, and it was turning into a "he said she said"

would have done the same if it had been about ANY tuner who replied.

mook


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

nope the customer did and was fobbed off


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

and discussing it now via a keyboard is making what progress exactly?

your dissing their work, they're trying to explain they are not at fault.

this is the point at which we'd lock it, but i'm interested to know what you expect them to do? Are you saying they are lying? it wasn't mapped safely? you've got the map? who's read it, who's said it runs lean top end? have they spoken to Rob?

you see what i'm trying to say??

you having issue with PT is not a problem, but unless between you, you attempt to find a solution, this will be locked

mook


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> and discussing it now via a keyboard is making what progress exactly?


none what so ever, but there was never going to be any progress he was fobbed off
i use spanners to work on cars not a laptop hense i took the ECU to be looked at
if the people that looked at the map for me want to comment thats up to them


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

Andy, i have no swords to clash here but i would ask the same question as Mook here. What are you wanting to be the outcome? Tweenierob admit he messed up the mapping? The garage to rebuild the engine? I am a little confused with what you are looking for either financial compensation or just someone to take responsibility for the engine blowing?
As i have no interest in either business or customer i can only make a very honest and neutral comment and i would say that any car that leaves a garage and performs on the drag strip afterwards, kind of negates any warranty the minute the lights change no? I don`t doubt the things you are saying however i can`t understand what a customer would be doing drag racing a car and driving it for 700 miles when he felt there was something so very obviouisly wrong with the mapping. If the owner had been crawling about between other garages inbetween asking them to map his car again because it was a melt down in wait, i would say you have a case. Otherwise i think you perhaps know that you play with the drag strips, things go pop. 
Not slagging you, not slagging the garage, just simply stating what the average Joe reads into this.


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## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

You would say 70 is a crock of shite as your wasnt there, like i said before Al pulled the car up and was on the other companies side so i told him to leave it running so i could move the car then swap it for the car on the dyno. Like i said before i remember it as Al explained i might struggle with the clutch.
I met Al at his car when he pulled into the carpark, as i do with almost everyone who comes here.
The AFR showed the car was correct at the top on my Wideband and recorded by the dyno. Certainly over 150mph.

You know EXACTLY what i mean by getting in with someone, as do your customers that have said they want me to map their cars.

Al said on the phone he was crusing on the motorway and the car just stopped, next thing the car had a comp test and it had no compression on any cylinders

I can keep going if you like Andy but IMPO all this does is make boring reading and end up another thread getting locked, not because someone is being protected but because all of this has been covered already. Same as last time, nothing has changed.
You put your side across, some have said that it wasnt really your place and that it was Al's but tbh it isnt the end of the world who writes it. I put mine across and everyone could have a read 
The thread http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/82241-twenierobs-mapping.html is still there for everyone to have a read of, i have nothing to hide and stick by what i say now and then.

I'm gonna go and spend some time getting my own car ready today so i probably wont get back on here until later. Maybe lets leave it for a month or so and you can bring it up again?  

Cheers

Rob


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Well*

I have supported this forum for many years. For sure we have had goog advertising value out of this. But first and foremost it was because of my passion for this particular make of japanese supercar. What a shame this forum is going this way ! It doesnt seem to be much about the cars anymore,Shame:wavey: :wavey: :wavey: 

Tony


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

tweenierob said:


> You know EXACTLY what i mean by getting in with someone, as do your customers that have said they want me to map their cars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


realy ? who was that ? i'll get a disclamer signed first

yup we'll leave it a month or so, i can't get a good look at it before then


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

Jason abz said:


> Andy, i have no swords to clash here but i would ask the same question as Mook here. What are you wanting to be the outcome? Tweenierob admit he messed up the mapping? The garage to rebuild the engine? I am a little confused with what you are looking for either financial compensation or just someone to take responsibility for the engine blowing?
> As i have no interest in either business or customer i can only make a very honest and neutral comment and i would say that any car that leaves a garage and performs on the drag strip afterwards, kind of negates any warranty the minute the lights change no? I don`t doubt the things you are saying however i can`t understand what a customer would be doing drag racing a car and driving it for 700 miles when he felt there was something so very obviouisly wrong with the mapping. If the owner had been crawling about between other garages inbetween asking them to map his car again because it was a melt down in wait, i would say you have a case. Otherwise i think you perhaps know that you play with the drag strips, things go pop.
> Not slagging you, not slagging the garage, just simply stating what the average Joe reads into this.


very good post, i'll be the first to admit i've made mistakes putting them right is what matters, obviously other people are just perfect :bowdown1:


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## Adey (May 14, 2007)

Andy W said:


> 70 on the commander is quite frankly a crock of shite
> 
> explain how you get that reading from it when the lad switched off the engine BEFORE he came into your workshop
> 
> ...


Its seems that he suffered some kind of fuel surge, fuel pump/FPR? I cant imagine any decent garage giving the cutomer back a half mapped or incorrectly mapped car... why should they want more head ache and stress over it?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Andy W said:


> if the people that looked at the map for me want to comment thats up to them




and there it lies.

so youve had the map inspected, and the person who's inspected it has declared it to be the casue of the failure?

this is, of course, proof. i imagine the map is locked and can't be tampered with, so, you've got proof it was mapped badly.

surely that then is grounds for legal recourse?

perhaps first though the company who has "inspected" the map, speak to rob, to clarify WHY they think its wrong in some detail and as mappers, between they can try to work out whats gone wrong.

if the map was wrong, it'll be obvious to any expert, surely?

mook


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

tonysoprano said:


> I have supported this forum for many years. For sure we have had goog advertising value out of this. But first and foremost it was because of my passion for this particular make of japanese supercar. What a shame this forum is going this way ! It doesnt seem to be much about the cars anymore,Shame:wavey: :wavey: :wavey:
> 
> Tony


[note]Irrespective of our personal issues[/note]

In what way exactly is this forum going Tony?

_Forum: A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper, a radio or television program, or a website. _

Just because the topic of conversation isn't going in a particular direction that you'd like to see doesn't mean the forum is going wrong, or does it?
Does that mean you have a problem with the way this website operates?

I think you'll also find that it's very much all about the cars too, the problem nowadays is that the people who own these vehicles are enthusiasts, the open-wallet customers of yesteryear are few and far between.

The game has changed from what it was and there's only a couple of tuners who've realised it and moved with the market. Just becasue something worked years ago doesn't mean it works today.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

This thread has suffered the most obtuse of tangents, I'm a little disappointed it didn't receive the respect it deserved. 

The whole purpose of this thread was to be adult in the way we conduct our business on the forum. Thanks Andy for pretty much ridiculing my requests and single handedly ensuring that this thread is also about to be locked.

The power of a public discussion implies significant responsibility in ourselves. Being faceless, the internet somehow diminishes this responsibility so we are less inclined to resolve our issues in relatively conventional manners and resort instead to borderline slander on these forums.

Why some people are unwilling to come up with mutual terms for negotiation through more direct methods is anyones guess.

If it were not for the internet, would you engage in a public protest outside the front door of these traders, placards et all, in the name of justice? No, none of you would. You would distribute leaflets and claim sympathy from the public? No, you wouldn't. 

Frankly, I don't believe many of these people who post bad experiences do so in the name of public concern, but merely to try to invoke justice and self gratification.

Conversely, I also think (bar one or two we can see here) none of the industry are often professional enough to stand up to when they've done something wrong and seek ways of publicly gaining favour. So few people see the amazing effects of doing this!

These kinds of tit-for-tat arguments are in no way productive. Personally, I've also had issues in the past but have always refrained from mentioning any problems to the public domain as I know the repercussions of doing so can be great for those concerned!

This is what I propose:
*
I open a new sub-forum on GTR Register. This will be titled Tuner Feedback.
Every single thread on this sub-forum will need to be moderated in advance by one of our own team. In addition, newbie posts will be deleted immediately. Once their concerns are posted (they can be positive as well as negative) then the thread is locked until such point where an opposing representative has an opportunity to reply. The thread is then closed permanently with only 2 posts per thread - one by the thread starter, the other by the third party. *

I am unable to win in ANY circumstance. It is clear even those concerned are unhappy, despite my willingness to cooperate straight away with requests as and when I receive them.

Also, if I get anymore suggestions that I am pandering to specific tuners and not others, then accounts will start to get banned. It is quite obvious, as a mediator, we are always accountable for the wrongs of others and you guys don't pay me enough to be your punchbag.


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## Hi5 (Aug 31, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> The power of a public discussion implies significant responsibility in ourselves. Being faceless, the internet somehow diminishes this responsibility so we are less inclined to resolve our issues in relatively conventional manners and resort instead to borderline slander on these forums.
> 
> Why some people are unwilling to come up with mutual terms for negotiation through more direct methods is anyones guess.
> 
> ...


It's unfortunate that you think your forum ISNT a good place to invoke justice 

I think it would be wise to seek legal advice on liability concerning user posts etc, and take a firm stance derived from that. But I think it is wrong to basically stop users from posting about their bad experiences with a certain trader, if they are trading here. To me it does sound like pandering to the traders, which imo makes your site far from independent.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Hi5 said:


> It's unfortunate that you think your forum ISNT a good place to invoke justice
> 
> I think it would be wise to seek legal advice on liability concerning user posts etc, and take a firm stance derived from that. But I think it is wrong to basically stop users from posting about their bad experiences with a certain trader, if they are trading here. To me it does sound like pandering to the traders, which imo makes your site far from independent.


I know my legal obligations and my limits. I also think you need to ask yourself if this is a public pedestal, or a community?

Finally, 1 day ban for suggesting I pander again....jesus...


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Matt*

You forget, I am an enthusiast as well. Thats why I cant bring myself to sell any of them.Thats why I was working this morning.Fiddling with one of my own cars.

Tony


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> This is what I propose:
> *
> I open a new sub-forum on GTR Register. This will be titled Tuner Feedback.
> Every single thread on this sub-forum will need to be moderated in advance by one of our own team. In addition, newbie posts will be deleted immediately. Once their concerns are posted (they can be positive as well as negative) then the thread is locked until such point where an opposing representative has an opportunity to reply. The thread is then closed permanently with only 2 posts per thread - one by the thread starter, the other by the third party. *


It has been indicated that this works successfully on other forums, so it'll be interesting to see how things go here. I definitely agree with only allowing the originating post and a response, and not letting others post opinion on the threads - it would just become a slanging match as so often seen.

I think it's a great move having the originating post moderated prior to it being opened for all to see.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

yup good idea


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> *I open a new sub-forum on GTR Register. This will be titled Tuner Feedback.
> Every single thread on this sub-forum will need to be moderated in advance by one of our own team. In addition, newbie posts will be deleted immediately. Once their concerns are posted (they can be positive as well as negative) then the thread is locked until such point where an opposing representative has an opportunity to reply. The thread is then closed permanently with only 2 posts per thread - one by the thread starter, the other by the third party*.


Cem, I can fully understand the situation you are in but the only way this would work is if both the initiators and respondees posts were moderated.
It wouldn't really work if a disgruntalled customer posts his/her concerns to receive a response of "all lies" and the thread is locked. I don't see the benefit to other users reading it? How could members see what the outcome was, whichever way it was resolved?
I don't have the answer as to how to moderate the situation and I certainly don't envy the position you are in.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

This thread needs to be closed or explained properly as noone really knows what the **** is going on. Cem feels bad and Abbey are being tarred, when they may not deserve it.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

agree

final word

if you've got arse ache with your tuner, or another supplier, try to sort it out as though the internet didn't exist.

if you HAVE to post about it, think about exactly what it will acheive, and don't expect the outcome to be simple

mook


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