# R35 GT-R stolen in robbery



## MD7 (May 7, 2011)

At 8.00 pm on 28/01/2013 4 offenders wearing balaclavas smashed their way into a house in Great Barr, Birmingham using sledgehammers. They were carrying axes & crowbars demanding cash and car keys. One offender has picked up the occupant's 9 year old child and held an axe towards him demanding the cash & car keys be handed over.

Occupant then handed over keys to a black 2009 GT-R as well as a Mercedes-Benz.

Very nasty incident which left the family very shaken. GT-R still currently outstanding as stolen.


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## Hellski (Feb 3, 2012)

And what will they get if caught, a smack on the wrist or worst case a few years in her majesties hotel........... There's just no discouragement for potential criminals of today and no doubt going to get a lot worse with the current economic climate! 

Thoughts are with the family following this horrific ordeal.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

^^^^ Exactly.

Thoughts are with the family.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

What bastards! As long as the people are alright that's the main thing. The car can be replaced. What reg was the car, I can keep an eye out or see if anyone has spotted it


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## MD7 (May 7, 2011)

Private plate beginning "J".


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## TEAM_KHAN (Oct 8, 2007)

^^ If you could put up the plate it would help alot. i dont think the car will be on the road but we can always keep an eye out!


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## TEAM_KHAN (Oct 8, 2007)

J...............??


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## MD7 (May 7, 2011)

Unfortunately I can't provide full registration details at present on an open forum. The offenders were believed to be 4 white males.

If anyone has any information please contact West Midlands Police on 0345 113 5000, quoting crime number 20SW/15324J/13.


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## Hellski (Feb 3, 2012)

PM those that are within the west midlands and any further details you may have of the GT-R will be of great assistance as I doubt the plates will be retained on the car.


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## Alexinphuket (Jan 25, 2012)

Thats terrible. Hope the family can forget and move on, something like this will definitely leave a scar.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Is terrible 

on the BBC
BBC News - Boy, 9, threatened with axe during Great Barr robbery


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## fl45h (Oct 5, 2007)

stupid bbc



> The men tried to get away in both family cars, a *Nissan Pulsar GTR *and a Mercedes CLK, but abandoned the Mercedes on the road outside the home, police said.


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Utter scum. Thoughts are with the family.

This is far to common in the Birmingham area. 

It amazes me, that the general public tend to know more about, who these criminals are, and there gang related activity then the authorities.

Nothing seems to be done about it.


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## *MAGIC* (Oct 21, 2009)

Would be nice to hear at the end of the story that they crashed the car and all burnt to death.

Thoughts are with the family.

Robbie


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## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

You really should provide more info on the GTR, mods, interior, spec, any distinct scratches/stickers etc.? Otherwise this is really no help. Everyone can suspect every black GTR around


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## cormeist (Jan 2, 2013)

Says Pulsar GTR? Typo error one would think.. Horrible reading this, correct me if im wrong, but the Traker that we have on the car the police can immobilise it once stolen??


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## EAndy (Dec 13, 2011)

Sorry to hear this  so much scum out there.

If it was me I'd have by now circulated my car details through Facebook and Twitter with the car communities spreading word within an hour that would reach literally 25000+ people.


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## WSMGTR (Nov 28, 2011)

*MAGIC* said:


> Would be nice to hear at the end of the story that they crashed the car and all burnt to death.
> 
> Thoughts are with the family.
> 
> Robbie


You are too nice....... I would hoped they crashed lived and were paralysed and then they can lie there in bed looking at the ceiling for the rest of there lives regretting what they done.

Thoughts are with the family


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## xxl225 (Oct 31, 2005)

Birmingham what a place hay!!

well most activity from people on the forum in that area is pretty poor lying scamming thieving....

smashing in to a house like an organised heist threatening kill someones son over a bit of cash and an 09 gtr...overkill but i guess it is a recession,sad times


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

xxl225 said:


> Birmingham what a place hay!!
> 
> well most activity from people on the forum in that area is pretty poor lying scamming thieving....
> 
> smashing in to a house like an organised heist threatening kill someones son over a bit of cash and an 09 gtr...overkill but i guess it is a recession,sad times


Thoughts with family.

In my experience threatening children is only usually done when its a personal vendetta against the family and I might add this is extremely rare as the charges / sentence / risk triple. Exception to the rules there are, but this is the norm.

My advise would be to look *very close to home / business.*


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Vernonjones said:


> Thoughts with family.
> 
> In my experience threatening children is only usually done when its a personal vendetta against the family and I might add this is extremely rare as the charges / sentence / risk triple. Exception to the rules there are, but this is the norm.
> 
> My advise would be to look *very close to home / business.*


I've been thinking the same.

How many people keep much cash at home these days?
They'd get about £100 from us..
Would have needed to have an idea there would be cash there.

As for the 09 GT-R. Odd.
Lots of better ones parked outside peoples houses.


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## EAndy (Dec 13, 2011)

We got burgled around 18 months ago. For about 12 weeks prior there was always at least 2 cars on the drive.

Anyway Stacey gave birth to our first child and around 2 weeks later I went out with friends to celebrate and my wife was at my parents a mile away with Jack. 

She had been out for less than 1 hour and returned to collect few bits to find house had been down over in that 1 hour and the only time no cars were on the drive.

Anyway diverting a bit sorry for that but it's sort of in relation to Vernonjones remark above. The whole house was trashed heck they'd even gone through draws and looked in boxes of spare lightbulbs searching basically for watches and jewellery. Was complete state, smashed glasses in kitchen where they'd just chucked them out in case anything was behind that sort of thing.

Jacks nursery... untouched. No-one had been in there by the looks of it. They must of opened door and closed it. 

Thieves are scum without a doubt but for the majority kids hit a nerve with them.

They stole the spare car keys to my RS4, my passport, a American Express card and then the rest was jewellery all items that fit into pockets. 

2 days later booked in for all new windows and doors or highest standard, upgraded alarm with sensors on all doors and windows, pressure sensor on stairs. Still won't stop any thieves maybe trying but at least once that alarm sounds the police will be on the way.


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

Not everyone from Birmingham is bad Alex :chairshot, but you did say that anyway in your message :thumbsup:.

If I could have details of the car sent to me please I'll keep an eye and ear out,however i'd expect the car is already in bits or abroad by now


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Same here - I am happy to check if DVLA and it's providers had that registration searched in the last few months.


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Hellski said:


> And what will they get if caught, a smack on the wrist or worst case a few years in her majesties hotel........... There's just no discouragement for potential criminals of today and no doubt going to get a lot worse with the current economic climate!


Spot on! There is no deterrent. The punishment needs to be far more severe...perhaps chop something off? But then of course, these scumbags have 'human' rights don't they. As far as I'm concerned, do the crime and you leave your human rights behind.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Made the national lunchtime news, but they are still calling it a Pulsar.:chairshot


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## TABZ (Apr 30, 2003)

Is it possible the J mentioned as the reg number is infact correct, hence it is a pulsar?

Regardless of the car make/model, still a nasty crime.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

First post says it's a black 2009 GTR though. So either poster or news is wrong!


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Maybe J plate on GTR was originally off a Pulsar, hence the confusion?


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm fuming! Can't believe they did this to a child! What monsters... I raelly hope they all get caught and proper punishment applied!


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

cormeist said:


> Says Pulsar GTR? Typo error one would think.. Horrible reading this, correct me if im wrong, but the Traker that we have on the car the police can immobilise it once stolen??


Don't think you can immobilise unless on subscription but saying that unless the unit is completely disconnected it can still be tracked!


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## Neil TT (Dec 24, 2012)

very sick indeed, not sure it will make much difference if they get caught, but we can live in hope, just scum


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

I am confused about the unwillingness to share the VRM, and the longer this goes on is just even more odd. This is not a recommended practice unless there was actual injury and or the vehicle has a marker already on it for other reasons.

Even more odd is the actual assault. Never a good thing when it happens.


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## R32GTR_T (Apr 8, 2012)

sw20GTS said:


> I'm fuming! Can't believe they did this to a child! What monsters... I raelly hope they all get caught and proper punishment applied!


No such as proper punishment here in the UK, apart from a free holiday at her majesty place in low life luxuries


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

R32GTR_T said:


> No such as proper punishment here in the UK, apart from a free holiday at her majesty place in low life luxuries


Unless it's know that they harmed children, then I assure you their life is very different.


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## james1 (Aug 23, 2010)

i ve commented on these types of situations before, with my professional head on, this follows the usual MO of these type of gangs......

numbers- usually 3+
weapons-overwhelmingly aggression - creates fear/compliance
threatening of family members- to stop anyone from getting any bright ideas about perhaps trying to fend them off, and also makes you do as you are told that little bit quicker.

from the gangs point of view, they arent ever quite sure what waits for them behind the doors, another reason its quick, its aggressive and in numbers.

The car will likely be shipped abroad or used in an armed robbery within the next few days/week.

feel v sorry for the family involved.....there isnt much anyone can say to make them feel any better at this time.

j.


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## SamboGrove (Jun 27, 2010)

I read about this here before coming to work and was suprised to hear it on the lunchtime news. Hope they catch the cnuts.



james1 said:


> The car will likely be shipped abroad or used in an armed robbery within the next few days/week.


Quite a good getaway car i would have thought. Big boot, epic power, easy to drive.



james1 said:


> feel v sorry for the family involved.....there isnt much anyone can say to make them feel any better at this time.


+1. At least nobody was hurt. Although it'll take a long time to heal the psychiatric damage, esp to the kids.


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Dreadful experience for the family! 

Like Vernon, I simply can't get my head around why you would hide the VRM??? Although the original VRM is unlikely to be carried on that car soon after the incident, I would still circulate all distinctive features/marks etc along with the full reg as far accross the internet as I could!!!

I hope those b*s*a*ds get caught soon and I wish the family a speedy recovery - hard as that may seem.

Doesn't sound like this was a targetted attack for the GTR though...if it was...why take the CLK - and then leave it on the road of the crime???

There's got to be more to this......


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Easy on the speculation chaps, it's an ongoing police investigation remember.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

It's on the news, so no idea why all the secrecy?


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## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Saw you on bbc

They listed it as a Nissan pulsar Gtr

I hope it's a happy ending


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

The thieves are lucky they're not in Iran:
Sharia saw: Iran releases pictures of brutal amputation machine chopping off man's fingers in bid to clamp down on election dissent | Mail Online

Apparently our judicial system has a machine to administer a gentle wrist slap..

Sorry, funeral humour. 

It would be nice to think that these scum get appropriate justice though. 
Hope the family recover ok.
I was horrified by the link btw.


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## AP Steve (Oct 6, 2012)

I thought most GT-R's had a tracker fitted as part of insurance requirements?


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## Hellski (Feb 3, 2012)

AP Steve said:


> I thought most GT-R's had a tracker fitted as part of insurance requirements?


Ironically some insurance companies will in fact increase your premium if tracker is fitted to a vehicle, oh the joys of insurance companies:chairshot


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

OldBob said:


> The thieves are lucky they're not in Iran:
> Sharia saw: Iran releases pictures of brutal amputation machine chopping off man's fingers in bid to clamp down on election dissent | Mail Online
> 
> Apparently our judicial system has a machine to administer a gentle wrist slap..
> ...


We need this machine in our society, it will makes thieves think twice about reoffending.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

I live in sleepy Somerset and even here we have ANPR cameras everywhere, and a fair few CCTV cameras. Presumably the vehicle will have triggered quite a few ANPR cameras leaving a trail, unless they ripped the plates off straight away? 

How would you go about getting a vehicle like that out of the country? Surely you'd have no chance, or is it really that frighteningly easy? I would have thought it will more likely be in a lock up somewhere to be sold in bits.

Let's hope they get some leads on tracing the scum, if I was in Policing I would throw MASSIVE resources at catching them, this sort of crime creates fear that can destroy the very fabric of society.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

Did anyone see that case a few weeks ago, a cash machine fraudster was caught, he had used card copying devices in ATM's, was thought to be part of a huge multi million pound fraud ring... yes he didn't even get a jail sentence!! ARGHHH!!


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

OldBob said:


> The thieves are lucky they're not in Iran:
> Sharia saw: Iran releases pictures of brutal amputation machine chopping off man's fingers in bid to clamp down on election dissent | Mail Online
> 
> Apparently our judicial system has a machine to administer a gentle wrist slap..
> ...


Now that's what I'm talking about! Cost of machine v huge amount of crime drastically reduced overnight? Priceless.

Seriously, we need deterrents such as this in this country. We're told that crime has reduced by 10% over the last two years - not where I am it's not and I bet nowhere else other than the desk where the figures are massaged.
It's just going to get worse as the police force in this country continues to be whittled and watered down.

This crime is sickening and the crims should be made to suffer. This country is just not tough enough on scum like this.


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Karls said:


> Now that's what I'm talking about! Cost of machine v huge amount of crime drastically reduced overnight? Priceless.
> 
> Seriously, we need deterrents such as this in this country. We're told that crime has reduced by 10% over the last two years - not where I am it's not and I bet nowhere else other than the desk where the figures are massaged.
> It's just going to get worse as the police force in this country continues to be whittled and watered down.
> ...


+1....yep....up the punishment and the crimes will go down.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Wrong. I was only reading today about when capital punishment was bought in for a myriad of minor offences in this country how it didn't actually act as a deterrent at all.

The likes of sharia law is not the answer, and I for one would fight against it til my last breath.

These men do need catching and locking up, but I like to think we could evolve higher than chopping people's fingers off.


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## RJJ (Aug 11, 2012)

My thoughts are with the family and the boy.

I do not care what the gangs reasons are, personal, targeted crime or dedicated car thieves.

NO person or family deserves to be threatened/assaulted in the sanctuary of their home, 

I really do wish the police catch up with this lot and the judge makes an example of them!


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## LiamGTR (Nov 26, 2006)

tonigmr2 said:


> Wrong. I was only reading today about when capital punishment was bought in for a myriad of minor offences in this country how it didn't actually act as a deterrent at all.
> 
> The likes of sharia law is not the answer, and I for one would fight against it til my last breath.
> 
> These men do need catching and locking up, but I like to think we could evolve higher than chopping people's fingers off.


I kind of agree with you, but my opinion would change so quick it wouldn't be worth me agreeing 100% with you if anything like this were to happen to my family, I'd want the person responsible left limbless, as '_animal like_' as that sounds.. and I'm sure peoples current easier views would change too if (god forbid) something like this were to happen closer to home.

Unfortunately I am just not rational enough to be level headed with things like this, if anything happened to people I love I couldn't wish for the perpetrator not to be physically, mentally and emotionally hurting, severely. Power and respect to you more rational people :thumbsup:, but I am just not one of them.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

My point is people think this kind of thing is a deterrent, but it has been proven time and time again it is not.

I am afraid evil people do evil things, they rarely consider the possibility they may be caught.


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

I get the evil people will always do evil things bit however I would find it strange that the thought of losing a hand for stealing a car for instance (not in the way in which this one was though...more general theft) would not put people off.


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## B4RXO (Jan 19, 2013)

Did anyone confirm if it was a R35 or a Pulsar?
Chances are if it was a Pulsar, then most likely it was a personal vendetta with the family?

Also theft of High performance cars is usually break in and threatening with violence, which has been seen across many Audi RS4 forums where this is a common occurrence.
But just remember, a car can be replaced, a life cannot.


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## Natbrat300 (Mar 6, 2012)

tonigmr2 said:


> My point is people think this kind of thing is a deterrent, but it has been proven time and time again it is not.
> 
> I am afraid evil people do evil things, they rarely consider the possibility they may be caught.


I couldn't agree more.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

I don't know whether it's been "proven time and time again it is not" is actually true.

I would guess the stats could be fudged either way, depending on who is doing the proving and what their motivation is.

One thing we should agree on though is that the current sentencing levels are no deterrent at all. Some criminals will deliberately commit further crimes because they see themselves as having nothing to lose, life on the inside is no worse for them than life on the outside, in many cases it's even better. Either society finds a way of making them happier in the outside world (probably impossible) or making them unhappier in the inside world (certainly possible).


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

I was just talking with a friend over coffee last night about countries he would consider moving back to for work & despite having a nice flat in Richmond he mentioned he'd never want to move back to the UK. If he sees a crime, he naturally tries to stop it happening. 
As a young parent - Crimes such as these were the main reason he came up with for not wanting to return to London again. He's had experiences of trying to stop gangs kicking individual's heads on the pavement, vandalism, petty theft, etc. If someday he tried to stop the wrong people and got knifed, etc. then what for his wife & baby?

He mentioned many people are afraid of gangs of youths in the street at night in London and most will turn a blind eye when seeing a crime to avoid getting involved and risking getting hurt themselves. Especially careful are people with responsibilities such as family, etc.

Looking at it now compared to when I was a child in London, a lot has changed - sadly.


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## R35Audio (Jul 9, 2002)

I dont think its just a matter of theives having their hands chopped off as a deterant but to me, the best part about it is they won't be stealing cars again with a limb missing. I would guess 90% of these crimes are re-offenders and if we gradually stated taking limbs off them, the crime rate would automatically come down


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## MrGTRMan (Aug 3, 2012)

It's a Pulsar GTR no?


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

for most criminals its greed or desperation that makes them do what they do. 

I assume the line they cross in their heads is if they will get caught or not. Most criminals not all (depending on their level of intellect) wont commit the crime if they think they wont get away with it.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

tonigmr2 said:


> Wrong. I was only reading today about when capital punishment was bought in for a myriad of minor offences in this country how it didn't actually act as a deterrent at all.
> 
> The likes of sharia law is not the answer, and I for one would fight against it til my last breath.
> 
> These men do need catching and locking up, but I like to think we could evolve higher than chopping people's fingers off.


Of course it's barbaric to mutilate people this way, I was just using the example as a metaphor. We should tie them between two opposing facing GTR's and launch instead  
.. note the smiley

Actually Toni I disagree with the view that applying serious (maybe capital) consequences have no effect at all, that is just not logical.

Some, even if a very few, would be remotely worried that they might be killed/mutilated/never see the light of day for doing bad stuff, then they wouldn't do it or at least consider. I for one wouldn't tax avoid if it were a capital punishment for example. 
Therefore unless the introduction of it actually causes a similar number of others to increase doing capital crime then the numbers must drop. I can't think why this would be the case, so don't agree that it would make no difference.
Anyway, following the Spock moment, what do you suggest as an alternative for the poor perp (never mind the victims anguish) - harsh language, community service, lock them up and mollycoddle them for life..?
Yeah they work real well as a deterrent currently...
I think there does need to be a three strike rule too.

Further ramblings following here maybe needs to be in the Rant forum, but I certainly believe the mental torture of life imprisonment without hope is probably more cruel than putting one behind their ear - a la Chinese way. 
So continuing the rant - Murder or similar that has no doubt associated with it, or repeat offence. for example the Yorkshire ripper they should be taken immediately from sentence to "death row" cell , which in itself is a plasma furnace and summarily despatched in an instant. No drama, no black caps, no ritual - done, painless move on.. 7billion - 1 who cares, they certainly didn't.

Feel free to move this to the rant forum


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

OldBob said:


> Of course it's barbaric to mutilate people this way, I was just using the example as a metaphor. We should tie them between two opposing facing GTR's and launch instead
> .. note the smiley
> 
> Actually Toni I disagree with the view that applying serious (maybe capital) consequences have no effect at all, that is just not logical.
> ...


Completely agree with you.

I cannot see what good it does to society by keeping these people; it costs to keep them. Why keep them? What possible good are they to the world?


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

All this supposes you 100% catch the right person 100% of the time, which of course we know never happens. Maybe people think it's OK to be wrong now and again and for an innocent to loose a limb, or their life? It's not a risk I'd be prepared to take frankly.

But mistakes aside, why do you think capital offences were eventually withdrawn in this country. You once could have faced death for poaching - didn't stop the poachers. Actually what happened is the juries stopped handing out the guideline sentencing and getting people off on technicalities, as they recognised the absurdity of the sentence for the crime. 

No, I'm not an advocate of the death penalty and never will be. Another debate entirely though. I AM a fan of tough sentencing for proven serial offenders which is a different matter, but they should WORK and work hard, and not sit in their cells for 23 hours doing nothing. IMHO.

These blokes in this case, if they are caught, yes I agree they need to loose their liberty. If they've done it before, for a very long time. Loose a limb? Come on people, you will instantly put them on benefits and have a knock on effect of criminalising people who genuinely lost a limb in an accident or something. Not a country I want to be in.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Bastards need there hands chopping off and then shooting afterwards


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Yeah because that would solve everything.:chairshot


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

I did caveat that capital should apply only in cases where there was no doubt at all. C'mon Peter Sutcliffe did it didn't he...So did Ian Huntley, etc etc. I'm not suggesting for one minute there will not be travesties of justice and there should be a right of appeal for initial offenders, but not forever, wrung out by the hand wringers and Shysters.

re The poachers etc argument, different times, different crimes, different social needs and drivers etc. and I really don't believe the stats if I'm frank, they are counter intuitive and that's not explained.
Again being very anal-ytical, take it to the limit though, if everyone who committed crime was despatched, and we accept that many are re-offenders, then the number of crime perpetrators and hence crime MUST reduce. As said before unless others fill the void, which they won't at least not exactly 1 for 1.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

If threat of death penalty worked then America's murders must be less than ours...oh wait....:blahblah:


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

OMG Toni, please, quite different situations, guns, society at work, volumes of people etc. I understand your concern and have struggled with it myself, being human and reasonable, but you must accept that some people are horrors, they won't change, they aren't misunderstood, they can't be rehabilitated, there is no point in trying, to carry out some of the things they do cannot be excused, or fixed - even if it makes your liberal conscience happy. 
Let's just disagree.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Nothing with liberal, I just hate disinformation when I hear it. 

Reprieve—Watch: Myth #2 - The death penalty reduces crime

oh and it costs more than lifetime imprisonment
http://www.reprieve.org.uk/articles/2010_02_07_DP_Campaign_Cost/#.UQpdf_ISGSo

Sorry but there's nothing to be said for brutal treatment of crime, it brutalises society and that's not a world I want to live in.


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## p.bro64 (Oct 4, 2012)

OldBob said:


> OMG Toni, please, quite different situations, guns, society at work, volumes of people etc. I understand your concern and have struggled with it myself, being human and reasonable, but you must accept that some people are horrors, they won't change, they aren't misunderstood, they can't be rehabilitated, there is no point in trying, to carry out some of the things they do cannot be excused, or fixed - even if it makes your liberal conscience happy.
> Let's just disagree.


I completely agree with you on all counts, unfortunately there aren't enough sensible people left in this country to change anything !!!!


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## countvonc (Feb 11, 2009)

It was an R35 GTR according to the pictures on BBC news last night.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

I think most people agree with you OldBob, keeping the likes of Huntley alive is utter madness. I would support 10 years in solitary confinement followed by execution.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

tonigmr2 said:


> Yeah because that would solve everything.:chairshot


4 less thieving bastards in the world yes it would help


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Luckily we live in the UK and such practices won't happen.

But I do hope they do catch these people.


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## p.bro64 (Oct 4, 2012)

tonigmr2 said:


> _Unfortunately_ we live in the UK and such practices won't happen.


Corrected yr typo !!!!!


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

LOL good try.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

We need to industrialise our prison system like the US has and use it as a free source of labour. 

Then hand out long sentences for this type of crime.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

tonigmr2 said:


> Luckily we live in the UK and such practices won't happen.
> 
> But I do hope they do catch these people.


Yeah really lucky!!!! That thugs like these will know that they will have a bed food and a pooltable to pass time , what a joke they have scared the life out those poor people who have probably worked very hard to get where they are and then some thieving low life bastards come along take it . People like that should be wiped off the face of the earth because next time they may actually kill some innocent person, prevention better than cure Isay


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I'm not going to debate the Daily Mail view of prison for the rest of the day.

Sentencing is an issue. Chopping off limbs is not the answer. End!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

If sharia law worked there wouldn't be any crime in those countrys


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

tonigmr2 said:


> I'm not going to debate the Daily Mail view of prison for the rest of the day.
> 
> Sentencing is an issue. Chopping off limbs is not the answer. End!


Yes, it is


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

tonigmr2 said:


> Nothing with liberal, I just hate disinformation when I hear it.
> 
> Reprieve—Watch: Myth #2 - The death penalty reduces crime
> 
> ...



I wasn't going to bite but we can all find substantiating evidence...
As Britain debates the death penalty again, studies from America confirm that it works ***8211; Telegraph Blogs

..let's not let the facts get in the way though..


You could argue that the Telegraph is a right wing rag and I that reprieve is a liberal do gooder poor old victim propaganda machine

and I've just got in so didn't have to look hard either


and it doesn't say the death penalty does or doesn't work it says there is no reliable research...quite a different spin.
"In the more than three decades since the national moratorium on the death penalty was lifted, *there is no reliable research to determine whether capital punishment has served as a deterrent*, according to a review by the National Research Council."

When capital punishment was suspended in *Britain* between 1965 and 1969 statistics showed a very large increase in murders that would have attracted a death sentence. Research it, this country, not US where the amount of executions actually carried out is miniscule to those who receive a death sentence. They don't carry it through enough to be an effective deterrent imo.
And Mook...of course no ones suggesting sharia barbarism, that's like saying prison or any form of punishment doesn't work because there's still crime in the UK, so we might as well give up and forget any form of punishment. Tell you what, release them all and see if crime goes up, according to some "facts" here it would actually decrease ;-)


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Saying there is no reliable research is not the same as saying it does or doesn't work of course.

You're right we could argue 'til blue in the face. But I don't think an aticle from the Telegraph and a lack of evidence means it works. 

Though I note the NRC also published this...
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/det...ce-studies-should-not-influence-death-penalty

Basically saying all studies that showed death penalties had had an effect on murder rates were 'fundamentally flawed' and should not be used!

The report found three fundamental flaws with existing studies on deterrence:

-The studies do not factor in the effects of noncapital punishments that may also be imposed.
-The studies use incomplete or implausible models of potential murderers; perceptions of and response to the use of capital punishment.
-Estimates of the effect of capital punishment are based on statistical models that make assumptions that are not credible.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

...and I'm not R33 in disguise  ... so peace!


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Aha!:chuckle:


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Agree with your last post Toni.
But you never did answer my poser that was would you risk tax avoidance if it were a capital crime that was carried through... bet you wouldn't, so it is a deterrent eh? ;-)


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

OldBob said:


> Agree with your last post Toni.
> But you never did answer my poser that was would you risk tax avoidance if it were a capital crime that was carried through... bet you wouldn't, so it is a deterrent eh? ;-)


I can't answer it because I wouldn't risk it if it were *against the law*. The fact that it carried a death penalty would have no further meaning to me. I don't need the extra sanction I mean. Surely most law abiding people would be the same!


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## MD7 (May 7, 2011)

A black 10 plate R35 GT-R was also stolen during a burglary in Wolverhampton, earlier this month on 5th Jan. The occupants were out on this occasion. Both of these GT-Rs still outstanding as stolen as of today. Investigations both ongoing.


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

Mookistar said:


> We need to industrialise our prison system like the US has and use it as a free source of labour.
> 
> Then hand out long sentences for this type of crime.


Could be a good idea if not for Health & Safety laws ...


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

MD7 said:


> A black 10 plate R35 GT-R was also stolen during a burglary in Wolverhampton, earlier this month on 5th Jan. The occupants were out on this occasion. Both of these GT-Rs still outstanding as stolen as of today. Investigations both ongoing.


Oh well looks like insurance for all R35 owners will be tad expensive this year ...


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes that's a pity, heard a rumour that criminals are targeting the GTR vehicles, it's been reported that a couple of individuals at DVLA have divulged driver details of GTR owners. Another not to plug biometrics, but I'm considering this again, as I've had them seriously on my Jag and TVR, basically without your live finger they would find it very very difficult to start, or even restart after they've taken the vehicle.


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

spiceykam said:


> it's been reported that a couple of individuals at DVLA have divulged driver details of GTR owners.


Now that is shocking news if true...


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Having worked at the DVLA, I know without appropriate AUDIT in place such acitivities can go un-noticed, hoping that it was merely a rumour but time will tell. As for hike in insurance premiums and recent thefts, I will post an update if Insurance companies consider additional controls such as: Biometrics, and reflect that in premiums. I managed to get a clean license, hit my 40's yet don't want be totally ripped off if I can help it. So the more recognised "legal" deterrents the better.


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## SkyInsurance (Aug 21, 2007)

sw20GTS said:


> Oh well looks like insurance for all R35 owners will be tad expensive this year ...


One claim will not really have a knock on effect. If say two or three were stolen from the same area, that would have a knock on effect, more so for people in that area looking to insure the same car. 

Unfortunately, 'B' Birmingham and the Midlands in general is becoming more and more of a problem area for specialist insurers like us.

On a personal note, I am very sorry to hear about this awful crime and wish the family well. 

Ollie


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## SkyInsurance (Aug 21, 2007)

spiceykam said:


> basically without your live finger they would find it very very difficult to start, or even restart after they've taken the vehicle.


They might come back for you and your finger...


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## james1 (Aug 23, 2010)

SkyInsurance said:


> They might come back for you and your finger...



As was the case in mexico......s class with biometric recognition.....robbers came and took the owners hand...left the rest of him though....all v unsavoury.

j.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

james1 said:


> As was the case in mexico......s class with biometric recognition.....robbers came and took the owners hand...left the rest of him though....all v unsavoury.
> 
> j.


I thought that's why the original post referred to "live finger" i.e. needs to detect a pulse?
I've been put of biometric security ever since seeing Demolition Man... uke:


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## james1 (Aug 23, 2010)

David.Yu said:


> I thought that's why the original post referred to "live finger" i.e. needs to detect a pulse?
> I've been put of biometric security ever since seeing Demolition Man... uke:



you are quite correct, i didnt say they managed to steal the car did i.....these thieves werent too bright. Nevertheless the hand was hacked off......in an attempt to take the car.

I ve seen worse examples in mexico, with both vehicle crime and kidnap and ransom.


j.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Having worked at the DVLA, I know without appropriate AUDIT in place such acitivities can go un-noticed, hoping that it was merely a rumour but time will tell.



Its one of the first avenues of enquiry via the DVLA is to see who access that record. However recently a hole in the system came to light which I myself plugged where the actual controls and reporting were not at the correct level and if you were a sysadmin with access to backup tapes you could get this information.

The current DVLA database is not actually that big when compressed, so when it was found that Hays magnamedia tapes were not one way encrypted, things quickly changed.

I am now fairly sure that the systems would stand up to any audit.

(Anyone wanting to know more - don't ask)


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

hahaha, the scanner used for biometrics seeks a live finger which detects heat and blood flow. Not only that if you are still determined then it's a case of kidnapping the driver


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## SamboGrove (Jun 27, 2010)

I would never ever fit that biometric stuff. Just asking for trouble. If somebody trys to steal my car i'd be inclined just to give it them. Thats what i'm insured for. I'm not having some lowlife trying to amputate body parts to nick my car!


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

You've never had your car stolen before then, numerous cars have been stolen primarily from their keys being lost or stolen, not because oh I'll think I'll steal it because it's a GTR. Biometrics have been around for a little while now, and are reliable enough to be used in all types of environments, from Motorbikes, Supercars to door access. How often do hear about thieves were able to chop a limb off to access something, you've been watching too many si-fi films. You'll be amazed by the amount of car keys handed into venues, restaurants, clubs etc. It's just a piece of mind, if you have my keys doesn't mean you can take and drive my car, that's all


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> You've never had your car stolen before then, numerous cars have been stolen primarily from their keys being lost or stolen, not because oh I'll think I'll steal it because it's a GTR. Biometrics have been around for a little while now, and are reliable enough to be used in all types of environments, from Motorbikes, Supercars to door access. How often do hear about thieves were able to chop a limb off to access something, you've been watching too many si-fi films. You'll be amazed by the amount of car keys handed into venues, restaurants, clubs etc. It's just a piece of mind, if you have my keys doesn't mean you can take and drive my car, that's all


Far easier surely is just to have the Nissan tracker fitted. Give them the keys, and even the tag if they need it, let them go, then ask the nice person at Cobra to shut the car down at the next set of lights.

Biometrics unfortunately are no better than anything else, after all all you need to do is ensure the system get a "yes" from what it thinks it's doing the matching and et. voila.

I design ISO27001 and PCI-DSS compliant systems for a living, and rarely do we ever put any biometrics in apart from "show", they really are very very easy to get around I'm afraid.

J


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

it's all about deterrent. If a car LOOKS difficult to steal, it's less likely to be stolen. Pop up posts are a great start as the theif has to faff around lowering it, whilst you go and find a billy bat!!


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

Joust said:


> Far easier surely is just to have the Nissan tracker fitted. Give them the keys, and even the tag if they need it, let them go, then ask the nice person at Cobra to shut the car down at the next set of lights.
> 
> Biometrics unfortunately are no better than anything else, after all all you need to do is ensure the system get a "yes" from what it thinks it's doing the matching and et. voila.
> 
> ...


Yes agreed. This thread got me thinking that if someone wants to steal my car they'll probably have to mug me to nick my fob and tracker. Then I thought, why hasn't the tracker fob got a keypad where you need to enter a PIN? Then I thought, why hasn't the car itself got a keypad instead of a big red starter button, so to start my car I would have to press 1111 for example.

Would that be better or worse for car security, and would it be better or worse for personal security? Maybe it's better as it is, phoning Cobra as you said.

Although, if someone wants to steal my money via an ATM they could try forcing me to reveal my PIN, but it doesn't seem to happen that way much, afaik?


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Deterrent Precisely, Ford cars were known to be easy to steal hence the numbers. In regards to Biometrics, I would love to see how you can crack the biometrics I had installed on my previous cars, I lay the challenge to you on the GTR when I get it done. Like a label on a window Thatcham or Tracker fitted, a thief would think twice. Not the platform to start squabbling of installs and 27001 and PCI DSS compliance, sorry but this area has moved on, various door entry systems in Central government have adopted, BAA (Airports Secure Rooms), as 27001 Lead Auditor and CESG CLAS Consultant, the GCHQ has approved various Biometric solutions out there from fingerprint to facial. Anyway, as I stated earlier, please accept the challenge and we'll see how easy you believe it is to crack and we'll post your findings, it you're not too embarrassed, ok lets move on


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## Natbrat300 (Mar 6, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Deterrent Precisely, Ford cars were known to be easy to steal hence the numbers. In regards to Biometrics, I would love to see how you can crack the biometrics I had installed on my previous cars, I lay the challenge to you on the GTR when I get it done. Like a label on a window Thatcham or Tracker fitted, a thief would think twice. Not the platform to start squabbling of installs and 27001 and PCI DSS compliance, sorry but this area has moved on, various door entry systems in Central government have adopted, BAA (Airports Secure Rooms), as 27001 Lead Auditor and CESG CLAS Consultant, the GCHQ has approved various Biometric solutions out there from fingerprint to facial. Anyway, as I stated earlier, please accept the challenge and we'll see how easy you believe it is to crack and we'll post your findings, it you're not too embarrassed, ok lets move on


What a silly challenge to lay down, as has already been said, if someone really wanted to steal your car, they could take you with it to the docks and then dump you later!

Two people were convicted yesterday of a botched contract killing, which they carried out for £1000 each. Do you think that someone would not kidnap / kill you for your £5000 car (stolen value)!


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Challenge = 1 x firearm and 1x hiab. 

Good luck


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## Natbrat300 (Mar 6, 2012)

Vernonjones said:


> Challenge = 1 x firearm and 1x hiab.
> 
> Good luck


Exactly!


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Maybe worth starting a discussion thread on the validity of biometrics on vehicles as this is another thread going off topic?

Thanks.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Like a label on a window Thatcham or Tracker fitted, a thief would think twice.


I think they recommend not to advertise the fact that there's a tracker fitted.


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## Karls (Jul 12, 2010)

Mookistar said:


> it's all about deterrent. If a car LOOKS difficult to steal, it's less likely to be stolen. Pop up posts are a great start as the theif has to faff around lowering it, whilst you go and find a billy bat!!


A parking post, wheel clamp and bloody great German Shepherd hanging off their b*llocks all helps! :thumbsup:


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## JamieP (Jun 5, 2006)

Trevgtr said:


> Yes agreed. This thread got me thinking that if someone wants to steal my car they'll probably have to mug me to nick my fob and tracker. Then I thought, why hasn't the tracker fob got a keypad where you need to enter a PIN? Then I thought, why hasn't the car itself got a keypad instead of a big red starter button, so to start my car I would have to press 1111 for example.
> 
> Would that be better or worse for car security, and would it be better or worse for personal security? Maybe it's better as it is, phoning Cobra as you said.
> 
> Although, if someone wants to steal my money via an ATM they could try forcing me to reveal my PIN, but it doesn't seem to happen that way much, afaik?


Toucan display in my car has a 4 digit pin, the Syvecs ecu won't let the car start unless the correct pin is put in, I can also lock the car into valet mode with a 2000rpm rev limit if I want, handy feature if im leaving the car with anyone for work, but not cheap.


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## Scoobyboy (Dec 5, 2005)

There was a attempted theft of a GTR not far from me in Walsall a couple of years ago, where a guy left his GTR outside his work and some scumbags pulled up with a low loader and tried to take it away, lucky enough they where seen and chased off, This was in the middle of the day!!!

Mate had his Evo stolen then same way, Low loader pulled up outside his house, put the car on the back and drove off, When my mate reported it and the police interviewed the neighbours if they saw anything, most of them did, but thought nothing out the ordinary!!!


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

However you feel about it, when you are in a situation of being outnumbered, its nice to have an equalizer.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes why not, end of the day it's an additional control to try and mitigate the risk of stealing or forcing the keys from someone, when the car is fitted with a biometric scanner then you have to enter a valid finger print, if you're forced then they can take the car, but how long for, they would need to keep the car running, once stopped it becomes immobilised. If you don't want to deter anyone, just leave the bloody keys on the front seat, don't make it easy for scum. End of the day that's what we pay insurance for, and I do believe some insurance companies reduce premiums if additional controls are in place.


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

Mookistar said:


> it's all about deterrent. If a car LOOKS difficult to steal, it's less likely to be stolen. Pop up posts are a great start as the theif has to faff around lowering it, whilst you go and find a billy bat!!



Mook, I saw your thread when you installed the post and though it was a good idea. you might not want to post on the forum, but do you recommend a key or combination lock? is it easy to lift and lock etc, I think I'd have a hard job getting my lads to bother since their usually last in at night though.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Hi, in answer to your question, what my associate is developing is a neat way of using the gear knob as a scanner, the Red LED once accepted a valid finger scan will turn Green and beep, this then allows for the driver to select START. In addition you can use the very small button that can override the scan by inputting a valid pin. So it can become a two-factor authentication, Something You Have and Something You Know. As previously mentioned I will post all details for proud owners to view, question and test, you'll be impressed by this affordable security option.


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## dilz87 (Mar 16, 2008)

Had the police round mine Saturday night. Ol man was taking a walk around 10pm and they were on my road, They were looking for a suspicious vehicle parked up with 2 english lads near my car, I happened to leave it on the road as I was going out later. They've taken the car details and will be on alert.

They said they target the quieter areas with sports cars so be vigilante. 

Although they may have just been parked up and chilling you can't help but wonder ever since the incident last week in Great Barr. 

Thoughts go out to the family. Horrible ordeal.


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Deterrent Precisely, Ford cars were known to be easy to steal hence the numbers. In regards to Biometrics, I would love to see how you can crack the biometrics I had installed on my previous cars, I lay the challenge to you on the GTR when I get it done. Like a label on a window Thatcham or Tracker fitted, a thief would think twice. Not the platform to start squabbling of installs and 27001 and PCI DSS compliance, sorry but this area has moved on, various door entry systems in Central government have adopted, BAA (Airports Secure Rooms), as 27001 Lead Auditor and CESG CLAS Consultant, the GCHQ has approved various Biometric solutions out there from fingerprint to facial. Anyway, as I stated earlier, please accept the challenge and we'll see how easy you believe it is to crack and we'll post your findings, it you're not too embarrassed, ok lets move on


A very funny post. Really funny.

So how do you get 27001 without using Bio's then? Your point is therefore redundant, in that it doesn't prove anything to have them with accreditation.

We also don't need them for our CTAS accreditation either if you like quoting all sorts of lovely FLAs, especially CESG ones.

Ergo, your point is a bit redundant. You surely can get all sorts of accreditations with bios, but nothing says they do much that other than offer reasonable perceived security, of which there are many other ways to achieve that.

As for breaking them, it's as simple as any other two factor system, and in the case of locks, just getting the bio owner to open it for you is generally the easiest which makes your challenge look a complete dook when someone holds a gun to your head and asks you to present your hand.

As that was the original point of this thread, it was the reason for my post. They are far too easy to overcome because one of the factors you know who has it, and the last time I looked you can't lock your hand in a safe.

J


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

Vernonjones said:


> Challenge = 1 x firearm and 1x hiab.
> Good luck


 Unforgettably that's what he's missed in that bios actually give you a wonderful attack point because you know who has the bio and it's relatively easy to obtain it under duress.

It's for this reason things that really need to be secure and have significant national importance (rather than a few rooms in an airport) tend not to use it, because obtaining the bio acceptance under duress is a bit too easy.

But then what do I know, I clearly don't run anything of national importance.... :chuckle:

J


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

Trevgtr said:


> Yes agreed. This thread got me thinking that if someone wants to steal my car they'll probably have to mug me to nick my fob and tracker. Then I thought, why hasn't the tracker fob got a keypad where you need to enter a PIN? Then I thought, why hasn't the car itself got a keypad instead of a big red starter button, so to start my car I would have to press 1111 for example.
> Would that be better or worse for car security, and would it be better or worse for personal security? Maybe it's better as it is, phoning Cobra as you said.
> Although, if someone wants to steal my money via an ATM they could try forcing me to reveal my PIN, but it doesn't seem to happen that way much, afaik?


The PIN adds nothing, it's a blank factor because the system already has a key and the fob which means the person with the PIN has already "lost" the other two parts.

Because it would also have to be done every time, it's also a significant weak point because it's observable, obtainable under duress, and predictable due to the annoyance factor.

It also gives a further weak point for an engineering solution because you give the system an identifiable differing response which enables you engineer a work around. This was the base level attack used recently to work out the ability to programme a blank key for BMWs, but also very famously done to enable hacking of the Chip-n-Pin readers.

It's actually generally better to allow the duress event to happen, and then deal with it later as per the Cobra system. It doesn't prevent the theft (but then nothing can prevent someone picking it up with a car grab loader) but minimises the duress and known point IMHO.

After all, the car is insured ultimately and it's not worth the issues these systems give to a determined thief. Bio systems just take that to the next logical level of the individual being forced to enable the car to be stolen.

J


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Yawn Yawn Yawn, funny how you've piped up after thinking what to write. Not to fall into the same level, and start preaching standards. I have already laid the challenge down, so to save you any further embarassment, blabbing on about blank keys and forgotten PINS, there are various variations and solutions out there, have an open mind NOT an ignorant one, lets see how you can really circumvent the biometric system on my car. Less talk, saves all the inappropriate postings, and I'm a happy owner of vehicles that have had such a device, and remember the term "deterrent".


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Yawn Yawn Yawn, funny how you've piped up after thinking what to write. Not to fall into the same level, and start preaching standards. I have already laid the challenge down, so to save you any further embarassment, blabbing on about blank keys and forgotten PINS, there are various variations and solutions out there, have an open mind NOT an ignorant one, lets see how you can really circumvent the biometric system on my car. Less talk, saves all the inappropriate postings, and I'm a happy owner of vehicles that have had such a device.


This is truly a ridiculous post, I can only assume you somehow think you are superman and no-one on earth could possibly take your things. 

Circumventing a system only requires knowledge of that system, nothing is 100% secure, and I am quite sure the GCHQ's, MI7 and PMO workers will testify to that.

Biometrics is very very good nowadays, and in some cases, yes there is no front door access. However people always forget about the side doors. Here is an Example I used LAST YEAR.

A company paid me privately to attack their system and try to obtain a certain high value database. They had monstrous firewalls, active packet sniffing and such like.

I visited the site on Monday at 17:30 and found which cleaning company they used. Next day went for a job and made some BS story about only working close to home (next to the building. Got my pass and poloshirt. Wed I was allowed through the front door as a contract cleaner, found the server room, piggy backed a member of staff, located the VAX and removed the backup taped from a robot library.

Thursday I got paid.

The moral of this story is EVERYTHING can be gotten around. With yours, I stand by my original firearms and Hiab. Sometime a low tech method is always the best.

Peace out.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Okay, here we go. I merely state that I have and numerous people use biometric systems for the purpose of AAA, Authentication, Authorisation and Accounting. Let me recap, it's a deterrent, an additional control. As for CTAS and 27001, Biometrics provides additional assurance to safeguard unauthorised actions, it's not 27001 mandatory control, as for Accreditation, the Accreditor of a system or service can lean towards approval if he/she feels appropriate measures are put in place. Remember it's a deterrent, nobody has claimed it's 100% but it's a mitigating control to help reduce risk to an acceptable level. You have your keys, someone steals them then they take your car, however if you have additional control whereby the car is requesting a scan of your fingerprint surely that is a bonus. Let me see, if this is totally useless why do owners of vehicles, authorities continue to use this technology. There are numerous examples of such installations, but I have used incorporated this into my vehicles. For those simpletons, two cars on a driveway or forecourt. You've acquired the keys nothing else, which vehicle do you really have a better chance in stealing. Remember "A chain is only as strong as your weakest link". Immobiliser, Tracker, Keys why bother.......


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

I wasn't arguing that BMA is a bad idea, in fact I pioneered this into UK goverment back in the day when I probly shouldn't have but I have always been an advocate ....... that said........ there is a time and a place for it, and I don't believe cars are it as a sole protection method.

I agree and disagree in short!


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes not as a single control, it would ideally benefit by others such as: Tracker and Immobiliser, you and I would term that as defence in depth


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Yes not as a single control, it would ideally benefit by others such as: Tracker and Immobiliser, you and I would term that as defence in depth


Indeed. My other favourite is 'security through obscurity'. Not favoured by a lot of people but when used as a bait and switch very effective if playing for time.


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Yawn Yawn Yawn, funny how you've piped up after thinking what to write. Not to fall into the same level, and start preaching standards. I have already laid the challenge down, so to save you any further embarassment, blabbing on about blank keys and forgotten PINS, there are various variations and solutions out there, have an open mind NOT an ignorant one, lets see how you can really circumvent the biometric system on my car. Less talk, saves all the inappropriate postings, and I'm a happy owner of vehicles that have had such a device, and remember the term "deterrent".


No, I just have a real life that means I don't spend my entire time checking the forums.

And you've changed your tune. I can easily circumvent your solution by picking up the car, taking it away, and then finding what you've added at my leisure, taking the car totally apart if necessary. Exactly how do you stop that?

How does biometrics stop your car being lifted? Park it in Westminster on a double yellow and then let's see how "effective" your amazing solution is at stopping the car being put in a car pound. Given lifting a car is now the third most common way of it being stolen in London (it takes 10 seconds) I have a feeling the thieves won't give a dam about what you have in it.

Perhaps if you spent more time actually thinking about what you are trying to stop happening (which is the stealing of your car) you'd see that biometrics only stop someone smashing a window and driving off. But then so does a tracker tag so what exactly have you gained, apart from a bit of James Bondesq show.

Would you also like to tell us what the discount rating is from the actuarial tables for having your system added so we can gauge what the real risk assessors think of it?

So, yes, I will happily take up the challenge of getting around your system if "getting around it" means I deprive you of ownership (which I remind you is what this thread is about)

J


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## andrew186 (May 3, 2010)

spiceykam said:


> Deterrent Precisely, Ford cars were known to be easy to steal hence the numbers. In regards to Biometrics, I would love to see how you can crack the biometrics I had installed on my previous cars, I lay the challenge to you on the GTR when I get it done. Like a label on a window Thatcham or Tracker fitted, a thief would think twice. Not the platform to start squabbling of installs and 27001 and PCI DSS compliance, sorry but this area has moved on, various door entry systems in Central government have adopted, BAA (Airports Secure Rooms), as 27001 Lead Auditor and CESG CLAS Consultant, the GCHQ has approved various Biometric solutions out there from fingerprint to facial. Anyway, as I stated earlier, please accept the challenge and we'll see how easy you believe it is to crack and we'll post your findings, it you're not too embarrassed, ok lets move on


2 armed men, one with a gun to your wife/son/daughter/mothers head.

Or maybe just one gun man with one pointed straight at you. What would you do then?

Now I'm sure you'll find a way to deactivate it as quick as you can eh?

Granted you'll stop opportunists.. but I don't think biometrics have a place in cars.


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

andrew186 said:


> Granted you'll stop opportunists.. but I don't think biometrics have a place in cars.


Alas, they all seem to drive around with pick up lorries it seems.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Too many films again, blimey get a life. How often do you hear about armed men turning up and demanding your vehicle, yes maybe in South Africa or US. Here in the UK and general its people staking out a quiet area and using perhaps a pick up lorry, or stealing your keys. As for your lame excuse not to protect the car in any other way, just leave the bloody keys on the front seat then and do away with any confrontation. End of the day a determine gunman is best not confronted, in risk based situation an assessment has to be made on Motivation, Capability and Likelihood. 
Keep it real, and stop blabbing waffling on about how easy it will be to circumvent a biometric system, you haven't done it yet so stop emitting hot air and move onto another thread and continue with your real life


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Too many films again, blimey get a life. How often do you hear about armed men turning up and demanding your vehicle, yes maybe in South Africa or US. Here in the UK and general its people staking out a quiet area and using perhaps a pick up lorry, or stealing your keys. As for your lame excuse not to protect the car in any other way, just leave the bloody keys on the front seat then and do away with any confrontation. End of the day a determine gunman is best not confronted, in risk based situation an assessment has to be made on Motivation, Capability and Likelihood.
> Keep it real, and stop blabbing waffling on about how easy it will be to circumvent a biometric system, you haven't done it yet so stop emitting hot air and move onto another thread and continue with your real life


More TLAs, you do like them don't you?

Gun holdups happen in the UK - just Google it.

I presume you saw the Discovery channel showing three ways to bypass bioscanners. (yes, a bit sensationalist, but it sent the scanner manufacturers scurrying when they bypassed it with a photocopy), plus are familiar with the work of Tobias, Bluzmanis & Fiddler?

There are far more examples of ways of getting around them, and at the end of the day a bio-scanner is no more secure in a car as an aftermarket fit than an immobiliser because it has to interrupt the ignition circuit. There are various ways of doing that, but none can't be removed. 

So it comes down to your fingerprint scanner is no better than a two factor tag with the key. If you keep the tag separate then there is nothing to be gained apart from a bit of show and your peace of mind.

But hey, if you are happy, who gives a **** about it, it's your car after all. At least you are keeping people employed by buying and fitting it.

J


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Still going on yawn yawn, like I've already stated you've been watching too many films, and getting rattled by some men holding up car owners, it's always in the news NOT. Stop exaggerating, and look at the bigger picture, we as owners want to safeguard our belongings the best way we can, not to give up and not to provide a deterrent. The scanner in that documentary is noting like the one I've used, and like I've mentioned when I do get this additional control fitted, I will challenge you to bring your ignorant ass down here, so you can really demonstrate how easy it will be to bypass the biometric device, now wake up and move on and let people make their own choice, remember to put a note on your dashboard stating please don't rob me, put a gun to my head, the keys are in the glove compartment, its okay I'm insured.


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Still going on yawn yawn, like I've already stated you've been watching too many films, and getting rattled by some men holding up car owners, it's always in the news NOT. Stop exaggerating, and look at the bigger picture, we as owners want to safeguard our belongings the best way we can, not to give up and not to provide a deterrent. The scanner in that documentary is noting like the one I've used, and like I've mentioned when I do get this additional control fitted, I will challenge you to bring your ignorant ass down here, so you can really demonstrate how easy it will be to bypass the biometric device, now wake up and move on and let people make their own choice, remember to put a note on your dashboard stating please don't rob me, put a gun to my head, the keys are in the glove compartment, its okay I'm insured.


Ignorant ass huh? Of course when you have to throw insults then it says it all.

But then your employment is an oxymoron isn't it.


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## R32GTR_T (Apr 8, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Too many films again, blimey get a life. How often do you hear about armed men turning up and demanding your vehicle, yes maybe in South Africa or US. Here in the UK and general its people staking out a quiet area and using perhaps a pick up lorry, or stealing your keys. As for your lame excuse not to protect the car in any other way, just leave the bloody keys on the front seat then and do away with any confrontation. End of the day a determine gunman is best not confronted, in risk based situation an assessment has to be made on Motivation, Capability and Likelihood.
> Keep it real, and stop blabbing waffling on about how easy it will be to circumvent a biometric system, you haven't done it yet so stop emitting hot air and move onto another thread and continue with your real life


The way things are going its a matter of time before they do it!!!


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Do what, implement an additional control or deterrent, too many people scare mongering. So what if there has been a hold up, why then have a sought after car, the purpose of additional control such as a biometric device is to reduce the likelihood of a opportunist having your keys and simply driving away. Many people have lost there vehicles from key theft not being held up at gun point. If you are a determined criminal then it is understood the measures he/she would take. Then it becomes more than a opportunist. Remember it's a deterrent and additional control, as for continuing to attack a defence in depth approach, just get a skoda if are so worried about the press, and have no faith !.


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## R32GTR_T (Apr 8, 2012)

The way I see it is if the robbers want to take anything they would do anything to take it. 

Like Nigel powers 33 they took it broad day light on a recovery truck. 

Anything is possible nowadays


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Yes anything is possible, so do we give up and not try to protect what we own, come on why have a safeguard if don't have faith in it. Why have an immobiliser, tracker etc.... There's a low loader waiting for you, ooooh I better hand the keys and log book now, and when I've locked my front door at home I won't double lock it, because the robbers can smash in the kitchen window, lets keep it real.


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## Eadon (Dec 14, 2012)

Spiceykam is talking sense IMO.

There will ALWAYS be the possibility of the armed gun man which will defeat any security measure unless you are willing to die. So why not further safeguard your car from the petty thieves and criminals until the day a gun is put in your face, if that day came, at which point you disable the xyz feature that protected your car previously for however many years.

Even in the case of a low loader, why not have a system that will stop the car being of any use to them?

It all makes sense and im surprised this guy has been picked apart.


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## S14 (Jan 4, 2012)

Just Back from Holiday and see this!

The guy lives fairly close to me and we used to flash each other when going past..

As far as i can remember his number plate was J7 NJW or something similar

Shocking really and feel for his family

He had some nice cars inclusing a RRS and a F430

My insurance has gone up to 2k and i was already considering selling, this has now put the final nail in the coffin for me.


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

S14 said:


> My insurance has gone up to 2k and i was already considering selling, this has now put the final nail in the coffin for me.


Wow...2k! and I thought mine was expensive at £1,200...


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## S14 (Jan 4, 2012)

Yes 2k!

Was with CCI paying what i thought was unreasonable 1.5k but when they sent the renewal i was shocked!

I've always had the principle that i will never pay more than 1.5k for insurance, so the car has to go as i cannot find any other companies willing to insure it as it is lightly modded Stage 2 Litchfield


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

S14 said:


> Yes 2k!
> 
> Was with CCI paying what i thought was unreasonable 1.5k but when they sent the renewal i was shocked!
> 
> I've always had the principle that i will never pay more than 1.5k for insurance, so the car has to go as i cannot find any other companies willing to insure it as it is lightly modded Stage 2 Litchfield


Yes the tuning (althought mine only Stage 1) did increase my premiums... I'll be getting renewal in 2 months not looking forward... no points/conviction and only 1 minor non fault accident 3 years ago.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks S14, it's not a case of being picked apart its having giving members the ability to respond with a justified response, of which I haven't had one yet, only that some people are ignorant or believe technologies are useless and pointless. I beg to differ, and in my experience and correspondence with car owners, is that additional controls and safeguards gives them a deterrent that helps thwart the petty thief. Speaking to Admiral today, they have stated that the more controls in place, gives the underwriter the assurance that additional measures have been taken, and this can be dependent on vehicle, help reduce renewal premiums. Yes insurance market is a competitive one and it's all about who will take the risk and willing to accept liability should a vehicle be damaged or stolen. Unfortunately having nice things in life come with a price, we have to be aware of who we are, where we are and what we have, then decide is it all worth it, for me it is.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

S14 said:


> Yes 2k!
> 
> Was with CCI paying what i thought was unreasonable 1.5k but when they sent the renewal i was shocked!
> 
> I've always had the principle that i will never pay more than 1.5k for insurance, so the car has to go as i cannot find any other companies willing to insure it as it is lightly modded Stage 2 Litchfield


Admiral should quote you for Stage 2 mods. It's less than 25% increase.
I would have stayed with them if they'd covered my Stage 4 (and now Stage 4.5 of course).

MILES cheaper than CCI.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Blimey, having spoken to Admiral on Monday they did mention that any mods beyond 5% will not be covered, so its a case of calculating the increase in Bhp and being honest. They quoted me a premium increase of £25 not bad, but will definitely see if 25% is acceptable, got the impression it wasn't, as I'm going effectively from 485 to 600Bhp.


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

spiceykam said:


> Blimey, having spoken to Admiral on Monday they did mention that any mods beyond 5% will not be covered, so its a case of calculating the increase in Bhp and being honest. They quoted me a premium increase of £25 not bad, but will definitely see if 25% is acceptable, got the impression it wasn't, as I'm going effectively from 485 to 600Bhp.


5% increase in bhp is nothing...even a Stage 1 is more than that. Pretty sure that's what Admiral said the last time I shopped around but will definitely double check again - 25% is good!


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Yes anything is possible, so do we give up and not try to protect what we own, come on why have a safeguard if don't have faith in it. Why have an immobiliser, tracker etc.... There's a low loader waiting for you, ooooh I better hand the keys and log book now, and when I've locked my front door at home I won't double lock it, because the robbers can smash in the kitchen window, lets keep it real.


Oh please. You now have moved on having lost the point about bios being infallible to now you being the drama queen.

My point is that your insistence that bios is the answer to life the universe and everything was just plain wrong. It's not, and you aren't adding anything over a second factor for the key, assuming you keep key and the second factor apart. That's simple, straight forward and completely stops your drama queen scenario above.

Plus, by your own admission you are adding bios to the car, and therefore they can be removed by just reversing whatever you wanted.

Throw in that Nissan's Cobra system has proven recovery in less than an hour, and what exactly does your bio system add? Even with both factors (key and token), the car can still be stopped remotely.

To that end I pointed out that not only does bios not add anything, like all things that are not inherent in the PLC logic of the ECU it can be bypassed, but that clearly got you back up and now you are ranting and raving about something that you say can't be got around, and yet by your own admission you are now "upgrading" it, so clearly as a security risk consultant you must think that there is now unacceptable risk about your current solution.

Your posts are so full of contradictions and miss-information it beggers belief, and when you are given the facts you apparently seek, you suddenly move on and try a different angle.

You said bios can't be got around, I've given you 4 examples where they have been. You now are suggesting people leave their keys around.

As I said, this is highly amusing.

Of course I've no idea if you know what I do (or who I employ), but a quick Google will give you the answer to that, and all I can say is my junior security engineers, never mind my senior and the consultants that we sell to other companies, including many of the places you've mentioned so far, would run rings around you.


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## rob wild (Jul 30, 2007)

Feel very sorry for the family involved and hope they can get over this! I suppose this kind of thing worries us all as we are all potential targets owning the same cars. Something similar happened to a friend a mine, the scum bags drove a Micra into the front of his house (glass porch) jump into his hall and grabbed the keys to his Audi and wife's BMW and drove off.

At the end of the day I take all reasonable steps to secure the GTR as in its in a locked garage with its own and the house alarm, there's a post in the garage, steering lock and when I'm away for a week or more I put the Anti theft map on with the keys and cobb ap at another location. However saying all that if someone broke in and threatened the family I would hand over the keys in a heart beat to get rid of them.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Hey who said I've moved on from biometrics, you 're still deluded. Who cares who you are, you are the one who spouted off about the weaknesses of security controls and then coming up with lame examples. Who cares who you employ, you obviously need the support of others to try give you some sort of creditability. Read my previous posts, biometric is an additional control, a deterrent for a would be petty thief. Where is the contradiction in that, as for you stating you have life to get on with rather than read forums, thats why you are still on this thread, and please extract where I said bios can't be got around. Get your head out of the clouds, and that perch you are on read what I've posted, don't make yourself more of an ignoramus. Nobody has stated that it evades a gun pointing at you, it's a safeguard and deterrent like an alarm to reduce risk not eliminate. Oh I googled you and it came up with "Ignorant T..T !".


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

Looks like a few people were in the security field here..


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

spiceykam said:


> Oh I googled you and it came up with "Ignorant T..T !".


Gosh, more abusive posts. How mature that you feel you need to do that, especially given you still haven't actually answered my point in now 5 posts.

You really are a little keyboard warrior aren't you? Bet you feel all so important that you are right in every post you make.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

OK, Joust and spiceykam, give it a rest will you? I said in a previous post that you can discuss biometrics in a new thread in the Off Topic section if you like but stop crapping up this thread with your arguing. Your last half dozen posts or so (I can't be bothered to count) have no relevance to the original thread so the have no place here. If you keep on at one another I'll just delete all your posts and lock the thread. Just agree to disagree and move on, life's too short for internet war.

Thanks.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

I agree, however this is an open forum and I merely orginally stated that I have used biometric devices on cars and found them to be a value, not just me but also other owners of assets. Yes we can agree to disagree, I'll still order my bio scanner and should it be easily circumvented by your NOT so everyday Gunmen, I will happily post. Have a great day, love and peace x


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## rfo5 (Nov 10, 2011)

I hope the family are ok and have recovered from this. that is the most important thing.


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## Joust (Oct 28, 2012)

TAZZMAXX said:


> OK, Joust and spiceykam, give it a rest will you? I said in a previous post that you can discuss biometrics in a new thread in the Off Topic section if you like but stop crapping up this thread with your arguing. Your last half dozen posts or so (I can't be bothered to count) have no relevance to the original thread so the have no place here. If you keep on at one another I'll just delete all your posts and lock the thread. Just agree to disagree and move on, life's too short for internet war.
> Thanks.


FBM


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## wmd_gtr (Jan 15, 2013)

I don't know much about engineering or electrics, but could you not have the red start button as a fake and put a real start button behind the steering wheel or something? So it looks like the car just isn't working when the start button is pressed? Like I said no idea if this is possible just an idea.


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

ecutek has a code system you have to enter. valet mode. drops top speed to what ever you want in that mode.


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Anything is possible, I am thinking of having a fingerprint scan on the gear knob, and once authenticated allows driver to depress the start button. End of the day it's a start button, on or off, you can disable it and rewire it. However great against an opportunist or petty thief, but with a gun to your head or loved ones its a balance of realistic threats and risks. PS: I'm not pushing biometrics honest


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## R32GTR_T (Apr 8, 2012)

Here's another one. You don't do as told...
BBC News - Man stabbed outside Wigan house in car keys demand


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## spiceykam (Jul 6, 2012)

Who's to say, he wouldn't of got stabbed if he still gave him his car keys. Would of lost his car and pints of blood, or even life. Still rare for it to still be in the news, best to give them the keys and remotely have the car disabled for future use, or put a claim in, it's how far would you go to protect your things ?.


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