# What's Needed to Go From 660BHP to 1200BHP?



## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

I'm looking to go to Stage 4.25 (660BHP) shortly but what parts would I need if I wanted to then go to 1200 BHP? 

I'm interested in what the additional cost would be beyond 4.25. There's not a great deal listed on tuners sites beyond stage 5 so the extras I'm aware of are below but what else would be needed on the list? Would heads need porting and new cams?

Forged engine
Upgraded gear box
Upgraded clutch
Race intercooler 
Turbos

I suppose what I'm trying to decide is should I forget 1200BHP because it's crazy money and look at something like Stage 5.5? I'd forge the engine at 5.5 while it's removed to fit turbos etc. I believe with the right turbos/parts selected at stage 5.5 then uncapped power can get to about 920BHP.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

What's needed?!........... very deep pockets!! Upwards of 40k deep

Don't forget fuelling, different injectors to what you have, bigger brakes.......


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Stealth69 said:


> What's needed?!........... very deep pockets!! Upwards of 40k deep
> 
> Don't forget fuelling, different injectors to what you have, bigger brakes.......


Think you would be lucky to get it done for 40K even, I doubt very much would be kept from the stage 4.25, if I were wanting 1200 hp I think id go for a map and save up or else you waste the cost of 4.25


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

The cheapest way of getting there would be to wait for one to come up for sale already tuned with cash waiting, of course it's then been done to someone else's spec and you can't be certain how thrashed it's been but you pay your money and take your choice.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Theres a lot of difference between 600 and 1200 in terms of money.

600 ish is available at any tuning shop and a day or so in the making.

1200 is probably 6 weeks turn around and 50/60k

It makes sense to buy a used car already converted and let someone else take the hit.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

From memory Litchfield were doing an LM 1000 at some 50k but that was 3-4 years ago. I would imagine it would be that money at least to do it safely.. 

At that sort of power you are straining every single mechanical component, diff's, drive shafts, bearings etc I wouldn't even dream of doing such a project unless I had 50-60k for the build and another 50k in reserve to pay for breakages. 

If you can throw that sort of money at a car carry on but I have my childrens future to think of.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Mr.B said:


> I'm looking to go to Stage 4.25 (660BHP) shortly but what parts would I need if I wanted to then go to 1200 BHP?
> 
> I'm interested in what the additional cost would be beyond 4.25. There's not a great deal listed on tuners sites beyond stage 5 so the extras I'm aware of are below but what else would be needed on the list? Would heads need porting and new cams?
> 
> ...



Running over 1000bhp is crazy for a road car unless you want to use it on the drag strip. 

Personally I would go 900bhp with forged engine, basic gearbox mods and clutches and run some 800ftlbs torque. That would be a stupidly fast car but usable and within some reason cost wise..


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Deep pockets and steel kahoonas..... Lol


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

Having driven a 1500whp UGR gallardo, I can say if you have the money go for it


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

Like what already has been said, alot of money..but then the grin factor is immense 

I think you can still re-use your 1100cc injectors from a stg4.25 though, and downpipes (if not going the manifold option), along with a 102mm exhaust if you already have it.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Tin said:


> Like what already has been said, alot of money..but then the grin factor is immense
> 
> I think you can still re-use your 1100cc injectors from a stg4.25 though, and downpipes (if not going the manifold option), along with a 102mm exhaust if you already have it.


You would prob have to go 1600cc or add another 6 injectors, if you go this far its because you want to run it and show it off so you will prob run E85 so even 1600 may be too small.


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## 55chev (Mar 4, 2015)

Im thinking 850-900hp for a real street car is the sweet spot,anything above this is for pub bragging rights.  prob 30-50k depending what other upgrades you would want to compliment the car at that power level,IE brakes and suspension.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Be worth it though if it went like this 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qOIO2wUTXg


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

terry lloyd said:


> Be worth it though if it went like this
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qOIO2wUTXg


hell yeah!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

55chev said:


> Im thinking 850-900hp for a real street car is the sweet spot,anything above this is for pub bragging rights.  prob 30-50k depending what other upgrades you would want to compliment the car at that power level,IE brakes and suspension.


Thats what we are going for in a month or so


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Mine should be running around 850 when finished. Any day now...


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## WarrenA (Jun 2, 2016)

terry lloyd said:


> Be worth it though if it went like this
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qOIO2wUTXg


I think I just let a bit or wee out lol


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

lots of options to aim or reach these targets - if your interested give me a email or call and will guide on what you need...

we have done plenty proven ones..


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## DocT (Dec 17, 2014)

55chev said:


> Im thinking 850-900hp for a real street car is the sweet spot,anything above this is for pub bragging rights.  prob 30-50k depending what other upgrades you would want to compliment the car at that power level,IE brakes and suspension.


850-900hp is 30k minimum from a stock car? Is that accurate?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

terry lloyd said:


> Be worth it though if it went like this
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qOIO2wUTXg


Nice to see a 1000+ bhp gtr being built and set up for track driving not drag racing.


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## jaapio (Mar 11, 2015)

I am also playing with the idea of not selling my car and buying a newer GTR but use the money to upgrade from the FBO setup now ( injectors, downpipes inlets etc) to 800-850bhp, without detuning for engine and gearbox protection.

What I reckon you need is, but not limited to.

New pistons and rods
Crankshaft balancing
Injectors ? (Currently 1050cc asnu)
Gasket set
Main and rod bearings ?
Turbo's, have good experience with Linney so far, so EFR6758 
Upgraded clutch to 800 ft/lbs
Upgrade to 1st gear and Circlips
Tuning after install

And then of course the labour cost, you can save a lot of money if you manage to do the work yourself.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

jaapio said:


> I am also playing with the idea of not selling my car and buying a newer GTR but use the money to upgrade from the FBO setup now ( injectors, downpipes inlets etc) to 800-850bhp, without detuning for engine and gearbox protection.
> 
> What I reckon you need is, but not limited to.
> 
> ...



Let me try and remember all the bits I've used on mine and associated labour...

Drop engine and strip, clean all parts, check tolerances
New pistons, rings, bearings, rods
New main and rod/piston bearings
New ARP main studs
New Nissan head studs
bores honed to take new pistons
Crank balanced
head ported
new turbos
decatted downpipes (with adaption of existing y-pipe to drop dB)
larger turbo inlets (car is 09 so had smaller inlets)
All new engine gaskets (head, manifold, timing covers, turbos, downpipes etc etc - lots of these!)
New oil pump
1000cc injectors
new fuel rail
bigger ASNU fuel pumps
new downpipe and turbo studs
new spark plugs
new timing chains and tensioners/guides
new intercooler
bigger intercooler piping and blow off valves (not necessary)
new cams (not necessary)
Uprated front diff (not necessary)
Bigger oil cooler (not necessary)
Bigger radiator (not necessary)
SD tuning loom (MAF low load, SD higher loads)

Gearbox needs uprated clutch baskets and friction plates to handle increased torque. Decided to not do input shafts and gears as may not be required at this power level

Remap afterwards

This is most of the essential stuff before you add in any cosmetic changes (powder coating etc)


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## jaapio (Mar 11, 2015)

That is a helpful list Charles Charlie, did you stick with the MAP setup or did you use the SD setup for tuning ?


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

jaapio said:


> That is a helpful list Charles Charlie, did you stick with the MAP setup or did you use the SD setup for tuning ?


Just added my SD loom as I forgot, thanks for the reminder.

Yes MAF at low engine load, SD as the load increases.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

1000bhp+ syvecs ? but can be done on COBB


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## 55chev (Mar 4, 2015)

DocT said:


> 850-900hp is 30k minimum from a stock car? Is that accurate?


Been researching this for myself,think i could probably get it all done for less than 30k,as all engine work and trans work i would do myself,i suppose a lot has to do with how far you want to go and the quality of the parts you use,for me i would only use the best parts possible,and engineer a safety factor in the build.i do think that power level 800-900hp is perfect,even though im @ 4.25 now.which is mental quick for a street car.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

I would want to add 1st gear shaft and circlips. These are likely to be the first things to break


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

vxrcymru said:


> I would want to add 1st gear shaft and circlips. These are likely to be the first things to break


That'll depend upon the usage of the car. Drag maybe, track maybe not given you're never in 1st gear on track.

I've had my car for almost 8 years now and haven't met anyone who had an incident that would have been prevented by circlips. Some early jap and US cars did from over launching with LC1.

Most bigger power trans issues are clutch baskets breaking. The remainder of trans issues IMHO are related to the GR6 itself and not necessarily related to the power level of the car. i.e. the trans issues were caused by original flaws in the GR6 and not directly caused by upping the power.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

terry lloyd said:


> 1000bhp+ syvecs ? but can be done on COBB


Sure, but not as well as on Ecutek..


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

charles charlie said:


> That'll depend upon the usage of the car. Drag maybe, track maybe not given you're never in 1st gear on track.
> 
> I've had my car for almost 8 years now and haven't met anyone who had an incident that would have been prevented by circlips. Some early jap and US cars did from over launching with LC1.
> 
> Most bigger power trans issues are clutch baskets breaking. The remainder of trans issues IMHO are related to the GR6 itself and not necessarily related to the power level of the car. i.e. the trans issues were caused by original flaws in the GR6 and not directly caused by upping the power.


The thing with the gearbox is - you just move on to the next weakest part ie you have done the clutch - next weakest part are the gears then the diffs imo


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

charles charlie said:


> Sure, but not as well as on Ecutek..


You know of 1000bhp + on Ecutek ?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

That may be true but the total chain is as strong as the weakest link.

If the strengthened clutch baskets no longer fail at 750lbft, it doesn't mean then that the diffs will now fail at 750, they may be ok up to 850, in which case, doing the baskets raises your floor level to 850.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

terry lloyd said:


> You know of 1000bhp + on Ecutek ?


Yep, on several occasions in the UK.

Many more in the states.

Why would you think Cobb could do it but ecutek couldn't?

In pretty much every area of stock ecu development, ecutek has been and remains at least the match of Cobb, why should ecutek trip up when it comes to running 1000bhp?


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Adamantium said:


> Yep, on several occasions in the UK.
> 
> Many more in the states.
> 
> ...


Software - but that is another debate - think its well known for the monster builds Syvecs is recommended


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

terry lloyd said:


> The thing with the gearbox is - you just move on to the next weakest part ie you have done the clutch - next weakest part are the gears then the diffs imo


Yes and no.

Weakest parts of the trans are the selector forks and synchros. But they fail at even stock levels of power and torque.

There are consistent failures that are definitely power related - clutch basket welds where they attach to the drive ring - but other GR6 failures that happen regularly are related to the design and manufacture of the GR6 components.

Synchros and fork selectors breaking are not power related as they are moving and engaging without direct engine power. Selectors fail because the aluminium alloy used cannot resist the flexing that occurs during gear selection causing incorrect alignment of the selector rings and subsequent fracture of the forks. Higher engine power does not affect the loading on these forks during gear selection as they are moved by the pressure of the trans fluid and are engaging a drive shaft and gear ring that isnt under engine power (clutch is disengaged).

Plenty of pressure sensor failures in the US - not power related, but poor quality component related.

At the extreme higher power levels component failures are rear diff casings (there's been two internal diff failures that I'm aware of at around 700hp in the US on heavily track used cars) and input shafts and all of these were in drag strip cars. 

Pretty obvious the issues there are related to the intense loading of that high power in a short space of time at the drag strip.

But the great thing about trans failures is that if any component fails, it doesn't grenade the whole box.

That way you can fix what breaks, when it breaks.

That's why I don't agree with some tuners who recommend huge trans builds when the evidence just doesn't back up the premise that power alone causes the GR6 to fail.

I'm a strong skeptic of circlip failures in the GR6. Yes there were a few on LC1 launched cars in the US in the early days but that was blown out of proportion to drive sales of unnecessary trans work.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Im with you on the above - i was aiming at the power / torque related issue , it seems the clutch baskets shear first / guessing due to the torque tables being tightened up for the stage upgrades ( less slip ) when these uprated baskets hold the gears take the stress from what i read 4th seems to fail strengthen these then you just move along until you get to the drive shafts


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Clutch baskets and their welds fail as the engine torque is higher than their designed limit and rarely seems to happen under part throttle. In my case the basket weld failed on full throttle and thus full clutch engagement. There would be no slip at this point.


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## 55chev (Mar 4, 2015)

charles charlie said:


> Clutch baskets and their welds fail as the engine torque is higher than their designed limit and rarely seems to happen under part throttle. In my case the basket weld failed on full throttle and thus full clutch engagement. There would be no slip at this point.


charles charlie Just out of interest,at this power level,are you saying a stage 2 sheptrans would be more than enough for a street car with little track use?just asking as your already on that journey


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

vxrcymru said:


> I would want to add 1st gear shaft and circlips. These are likely to be the first things to break


Talking to Andy at AC it seems weakest point of the box is 4th gear, hence I will need to change all my gears as 1,2,3 get hammered on the strip, 4th is a weak point and I want a longer 6th.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

charles charlie said:


> But the great thing about trans failures is that if any component fails, it doesn't grenade the whole box.
> 
> That way you can fix what breaks, when it breaks.
> .


i don't agree there, when my gearbox ate 5th, 2 years ago, I was poodling along in my stage 4, and just come on boost. the gear failed and shat itself all over my gearbox (metal shards and chunks) Which in turn , chipped a load of the other gears as well, with the bits of 5th gear's meta,l now rotating very fast around the gearbox, playing chip what you can!, The ECU which fair play, limited itself to 2nd 4th and 6th, so enabled me to get off the motorway with the car still running. cost me 5k to get the gearbox stripped, rebuilt with the fragged 5th, and other gears it chipped on the way round. about 3 of them. 

So lesson to learn, if you are travelling and suddenly the gearbox fails , but you still have odd or even gears, and you can hear a lots of metal going round in a washing machine , type noise at the back, pull over as safely and quickly as you can, to save other damage happening. 

and a video I managed to get of the horrible, bank draining noise!
https://sendvid.com/h25lc623
https://vid.me/jE3X
vimple.co/7929ff0500da47e595dfaa5a7feb2730

picture of the failed gear - (Godzilla wasn't impressed!) And yes, I kept the gear as a momento!


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

55chev said:


> charles charlie Just out of interest,at this power level,are you saying a stage 2 sheptrans would be more than enough for a street car with little track use?just asking as your already on that journey


For a street car that doesn't see the track or strip I'd say some of that is overkill.

The only real tangible risk at this power is clutch slip and breaking a basket weld.

Given a failure of a weld just means a car that won't drive but has an inherently sound trans, you could just swap out the clutch frictions to reduce slippage and wait and see.

My clutch baskets did 70k at stage 4 with a stack of track time before the basket went.

All other failures of things like selector forks can happen to any box at anytime.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Chronos said:


> i don't agree there, when my gearbox ate 5th, 2 years ago, I was poodling along in my stage 4, and just come on boost. the gear failed and shat itself all over my gearbox (metal shards and chunks) Which in turn , chipped a load of the other gears as well, with the bits of 5th gear's meta,l now rotating very fast around the gearbox, playing chip what you can!, The ECU which fair play, limited itself to 2nd 4th and 6th, so enabled me to get off the motorway with the car still running. cost me 5k to get the gearbox stripped, rebuilt with the fragged 5th, and other gears it chipped on the way round. about 3 of them.
> 
> So lesson to learn, if you are travelling and suddenly the gearbox fails , but you still have odd or even gears, and you can hear a lots of metal going round in a washing machine , type noise at the back, pull over as safely and quickly as you can, to save other damage happening.
> 
> ...


The wait till it brakes is AC's advice as well, if you had stopped you would not have damaged other gears and a built box will prob change all gears and shafts anyway. I wish my box rebuild were going to be 5K !!!!!!


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Chronos said:


> i don't agree there, when my gearbox ate 5th, 2 years ago, I was poodling along in my stage 4, and just come on boost. the gear failed and shat itself all over my gearbox (metal shards and chunks) Which in turn , chipped a load of the other gears as well, with the bits of 5th gear's meta,l now rotating very fast around the gearbox, playing chip what you can!, The ECU which fair play, limited itself to 2nd 4th and 6th, so enabled me to get off the motorway with the car still running. cost me 5k to get the gearbox stripped, rebuilt with the fragged 5th, and other gears it chipped on the way round. about 3 of them.
> 
> So lesson to learn, if you are travelling and suddenly the gearbox fails , but you still have odd or even gears, and you can hear a lots of metal going round in a washing machine , type noise at the back, pull over as safely and quickly as you can, to save other damage happening.
> 
> ...


To be fair mate a failed gear like you had resulted in damage limited to 3? other gears.

I wouldn't call that a grenaded box. Compare this with a grenaded engine which means block, pistons, oil cooler, head etc etc etc!

It's a real shitter that it happened and it proves my point. Failures can occur at any power level and are maybe more related to the general component strength of the box.

As an comparison there are plenty of big power builds running stock gears which have never seen the sort of failure you sadly experienced.

Also your 5k spend included updated components did it not? There are plenty of stock gear sets around for under a grand so it is feasible to repair these boxes for less money.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

dudersvr said:


> The wait till it brakes is AC's advice as well, if you had stopped you would not have damaged other gears and a built box will prob change all gears and shafts anyway. I wish my box rebuild were going to be 5K !!!!!!





charles charlie said:


> To be fair mate a failed gear like you had resulted in damage limited to 3? other gears
> I wouldn't call that a grenaded box. Compare this with a grenaded engine which means block, pistons, oil cooler, head etc etc etc!
> It's a real shitter that it happened and it proves my point. Failures can occur at any power level and are maybe more related to the general component strength of the box.
> As an comparison there are plenty of big power builds running stock gears which have never seen the sort of failure you sadly experienced.
> Also your 5k spend included updated components did it not? There are plenty of stock gear sets around for under a grand so it is feasible to repair these boxes for less money.


This was for a standard box rebuild, not uprated gears, as at the time there where no gearsets available, and only very limited used gearbox gears/gearboxs, Not like now where you can get a whole stock gearset set for 1k. My gearbox is already half Dodson and uprated clutch, everything Dodson except the gearset (which cost 7k) , from when I had some selection issues the year before. Lucky me eh! ... Amazing how once fixed, pressing the LOUD pedal, all is forgiven... AGAIN! ha

Anyhow plan is to finish off the gearbox with a Dodson gearset sometime this year.

As last year I had my engine grenade itself, so that's just been fixed and forged with Carrillo rods/ CP pistons / HKS cams /New block / New head / and other parts that got took out, in the explosion!. My GTR's like a brand new car now! haha the ****er!

x1 grenaded engine, not a pretty sight eh charles charlie

rod escaped 



















Crank fragged


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

glad you got it sorted chronos. Been a bit painful, but like you say once you have hit the loud pedal again all is forgiven. Until something else expensive breaks in an unacceptably short space of time lol

Ref the previous threads - my fear is two fold (rods aside)
1) 4th gear going
2) subsequent damage should that happen

I have uprated clutches, billet baskets, Dodson syncros and Dodson extreme duty first gear and shaft (inc full circlips). Similar spec to the jacks drag800 or somewhere between a shep stage 2 / 2.5. If I lost a gear and it took out the uprated stuff, I would shed tears. I wonder if I should have opted to also upgrade the secondary shaft and 2/4/6th gears at the time - but where do you stop?


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Bugger when that happens but I bet you are chuffed with the car you now have!!!Once the gears are done it will be one hell of a car.


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

DocT said:


> 850-900hp is 30k minimum from a stock car? Is that accurate?


Depends on what kind of work is done to the tranny, around  25k gets the engine pushing out 850-900.

t


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Yep Chronos that's a dreadful sight and I feel for you buddy. I've been a lucky ****er with my engine, not so much with my box - baskets, selectors and synchros a few times.

My apologies I thought your box rebuild was just a standard gear set.

You've had some shitty luck that for sure. Not much else to go bang now I don't think is there?!


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

charles charlie said:


> Yep Chronos that's a dreadful sight and I feel for you buddy. I've been a lucky ****er with my engine, not so much with my box - baskets, selectors and synchros a few times.
> My apologies I thought your box rebuild was just a standard gear set.
> You've had some shitty luck that for sure. Not much else to go bang now I don't think is there?!


My gearbox is already half Dodson and uprated clutch, everything Dodson except the gearset

Anyhow plan is to finish off the gearbox with a Dodson gearset sometime this year.

Hopefully I can make it thru a full summer without any issues! haha, i'm just glad to have the car back at the moment, even driving it round with a restrictive map, for 500 miles bedding it in, was joyful.


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

What's the rough cost of a fully built Dodson gearbox?


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## twobadmice (Jul 2, 2013)

I think full Dodson gear set, clutches etc fitted is around £20k


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Guessing the Op has decided not to go with 1200bhp for a road car now!
I mainly use my car on B roads and the odd motorway and stage 2 has been plenty.

From what I have read most problems seem to happen to stage 4 cars upwards?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I'd like to know why 1200.

I would choose incremental increases at staged price points and see how it feels.

If you plan carefully you can avoid wastage.

Forge the engine, sorry the fueling, but turbos for up to 1000bhp and see if you can arrange a deal with a tuner that you take the turbos on the understanding that they can make a allowance should you switch to bigger.

They should agree as the smaller turbos will be popular sellers.

Consider clutch baskets but you don't have to if you are just trying it out.

If 900/1000 doesn't do it for you, then pay for the next modular increase of gearbox etc.

I can't imagine for a road car that there well be any point.


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## DocT (Dec 17, 2014)

Would a gearbox cooler be necessary on the DBA onwards cars with 800-1000bhp and regular track use?


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Mr.B said:


> What's the rough cost of a fully built Dodson gearbox?





twobadmice said:


> I think full Dodson gear set, clutches etc fitted is around £20k


Sounds about right with clutch as well and full fitting of it all.



TREG said:


> Guessing the Op has decided not to go with 1200bhp for a road car now!
> I mainly use my car on B roads and the odd motorway and stage 2 has been plenty.
> From what I have read most problems seem to happen to stage 4 cars upwards?


Does seem to be stage 4 upwards yes, from what i've been told/read and bloody experienced myself!.. just happens to be the most fun, bolt on stage as well tho, typical! haha

I'm going full dodson as my gearbox has failed TWICE, and i can't be ****ed with it going again! and NO uprated turbos are touching my car, until the gearbox is done!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

DocT said:


> Would a gearbox cooler be necessary on the DBA onwards cars with 800-1000bhp and regular track use?


Yes - if you want peace of mind.


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

Adamantium said:


> I'd like to know why 1200.
> 
> I would choose incremental increases at staged price points and see how it feels.
> 
> ...



This is exactly why I asked the question. I'd love to own a car with 1200BHP just to experience that level of power but wanted to know whether the investment was worth the return. I'm intending to do suspension and handling mods first but the consensus seems to be that 800-900BHP is the sweet spot when going beyond 4.25. 

I had a good chat with Neil at Litchfield's about carefully selecting the right components so wanted to decide on the power level first and as you said avoid wastage on swapping out parts. The trouble is the urge to fit the LM manifolds and larger turbos is very strong


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

DocT said:


> Would a gearbox cooler be necessary on the DBA onwards cars with 800-1000bhp and regular track use?


My car was stage 4 and still the box got very hot very quickly so I made my own trans cooler kit with gear driven pump etc can also cool it in pits with motor switched off.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Mr.B,

Feature creep is painful, but there are definite areas where it is wise to spend the money.

eg. you can go for the cheaper 6758 turbos now without the manifold option, that will give you 850+bhp. To eek out every last bit, you'd want the manifolds.

Between 850 and 900 there's next to nothing in it. The manifolds give you better response and more power, they are imho a far better choice than just going for a bigger turbo on the stock manifold and the bigger you go the more they are needed. 

From smaller stock manifold turbo can choose to go for the manifold, go for bigger turbo stock manifold (bad idea) or bigger turbo better manifold. Budget will dictate but there's a chance you won't bother with any.

Personally, I think it's always wise to have the option of more fun mods still out there. If you jump straight for everything, there's nothing left of the table and the fun of the modding itself is over. You may not care about that, I do!

If having experienced 850+ it's not enough (I doubt that will happen) you decide to change the turbos the can then choose between bigger turbos or bigger turbos with manifold set up, since they have to come out anyway. There's always the cheaper prospect that it will be enough.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)




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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

dudersvr said:


>


Hands up all those who have managed to avoid being in a coma through excessive use of bhp!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Adamantium said:


> Hands up all those who have managed to avoid being in a coma through excessive use of bhp!


That was due to too little HP, if it had more I would have been further up the road !!!!!!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

If you had a tenth of the bhp, you might have fallen short of the taxi!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Adamantium said:


> If you had a tenth of the bhp, you might have fallen short of the taxi!


Nah I would have been asleep !!!!


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

dudersvr said:


> That was due to too little HP, if it had more I would have been further up the road !!!!!!




Or gone through the Taxi and taken the roof off!!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

TREG said:


> Or gone through the Taxi and taken the roof off!!


Yes thats always a pissabolity, still miss the bikes though !!!!


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## 55chev (Mar 4, 2015)

dudersvr said:


> Yes thats always a pissabolity, still miss the bikes though !!!!


My advise would be stay of them bikes,better to have a steal box around you,but if your like me id still do my own thing lol.


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Interesting read,

I'm sitting just shy of 1200hp and have pretty much gone the full monty with my car. From stock, to stage 4.25 - then straight stage 'whatever you want to call it!' My build thread is in the projects section.

1000+ hp GTRs today are not what they used to be 3-4 years back. I have now done over 10k miles in my car since build and only ever had one slave pulley fly off the engine casing causing the aux belt to fail, and broke one front driveshaft due to a torn cv boot. Thats it. With the right setup - a big power GTR is an absolute pleasure to drive. I use my car daily when the weather is good, gets driven hard everywhere, good few track days (will be doing loads more this year) and loads of drag racing events. The fun factor is immense.

If you can afford to do it - definately do it. But imho - Syvecs at this level is a MUST.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> Interesting read,
> 
> I'm sitting just shy of 1200hp and have pretty much gone the full monty with my car. From stock, to stage 4.25 - then straight stage 'whatever you want to call it!' My build thread is in the projects section.
> 
> ...


sounds great! Good to see 1000bhp is still useable, as a daily car and not be horrible to drive. so kinda like stock still...

What gearbox and clutch have you got? Does it still change smooth at low speed when poodling round? As uprated clutches are normally more aggressive, like 16.18 plate etc


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## E14STO (Aug 20, 2015)

You could just buy one already part way there... just saying - Nice purple one in the classified ?
I've done 15000 miles in it - no problems.
My dilemma if it doesn't sell ( which is why I'm not bothered if it doesn't) is the same as most people's at this level. Do I go the extra level? 1100?? 
Possibley. Will I see the difference on the road with the way I use it - unlikely 90% of the time


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Chronos said:


> sounds great! Good to see 1000bhp is still useable, as a daily car and not be horrible to drive. so kinda like stock still...
> 
> What gearbox and clutch have you got? Does it still change smooth at low speed when poodling round? As uprated clutches are normally more aggressive, like 16.18 plate etc


I have a PPG V3 built box with Xtreme Billet Baskets and Linney 18 plate clutch. Aggressive is not the word for clutch engagement - more like HORRENDOUS!!! 

Clutch engagement really bothered me when my car was first built. Juddering/shaking at low speed take offs was the bane of my life - I hated it. I would go as far as saying it was embarrassing to poodle around town with. Before I totally fell out of love with my car, I invested a lot of time in mapping and fine tuning. Romain is the Syvecs master - I had faith and we worked through it. Pretty much fine tuning and adjusting parametres throughout all driving conditions. To say I am overwhelmed with the results is an understatment!!!  Of course there will be a slight aggressive gearchange from time to time with such an uprated build - but it really isn't anything of concern.

On the plus side - the whine of a built box is just pure music! Almost sounds like a supercharger winding down when slowing down for junctions and blipping down the gears :bowdown1:


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

G2GUV said:


> On the plus side - the whine of a built box is just pure music! Almost sounds like a supercharger winding down when slowing down for junctions and blipping down the gears :bowdown1:


Sounds awesome, got any clips?


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Trevgtr said:


> Sounds awesome, got any clips?


Not at the moment - I'll make some sound


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

G2GUV said:


> Interesting read,
> 
> I'm sitting just shy of 1200hp and have pretty much gone the full monty with my car. From stock, to stage 4.25 - then straight stage 'whatever you want to call it!' My build thread is in the projects section.
> 
> ...


Got to agree, I daily drive my car. It's approx 1000hp on pump and just over 1200hp on E85. I've based these figures on the fact that I'm faster than Rocky (G2GUV) but will get it on the Dyno when I have time - Sorry Rocky, had to get it in there.

The drive-ability is not as good as stock BUT this can easily be improved to be as good if not better by fine tuning with Syvecs. I just have not had time to get Romain to have a look, but I am confident he will improve it no problem.

In terms of cost, I would say if you know traders well and shop around, you can probably do a 1200hp build on E85 for around £30-35k.

I can post a spec of my car and what was done to achieve this if people would like (need to update it from when it was running a 4.1L stroker!).

A few years ago, never thought I'd be running so much power but you get used to it very quickly and it's not just a drag monster. I've done silverstone in it and looking to do more track days this year!

Buzz


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Buzz,

Don't mean to be rude but turbine design technology and give tuning can only do so much.

You're not going to get turbos that can run 1000bhp to be as good as stock. You might get fairly close when it comes to boost threshold but in response time, you'll be lucky.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

Adamantium said:


> Buzz,
> 
> Don't mean to be rude but turbine design technology and give tuning can only do so much.
> 
> You're not going to get turbos that can run 1000bhp to be as good as stock. You might get fairly close when it comes to boost threshold but in response time, you'll be lucky.


No offence taken.

I meant generally driveability, not really response time Adam. Of course my car is a bit laggy however when driving from A to B on normal roads, I don't have any issue with response as we have traffic and can only go so fast on these normal roads. To be honest, I think the only time I will not be happy with response is when on a circuit BUT yet to see this as Silverstone was a lot of fun and is a fast track but as it was my first time, I wasn't chasing times.

The standard MY10 is quite clunky IMO especially gear changes and I honestly believe that a lot of these issues can be ironed out with a good build and mapping BUT requires such fine tuning. A bit like someone trying to map a car on 2000cc injectors, almost an art!

I still drive my car in auto to work in the mornings and it's not actually too bad so I'm looking forward to improving this.


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

Reading these posts, its got me thinking, I'd be interested to see how 600/800/1000/1200hp cars compare via different tests, standing/rolling starts etc.

Is there a really big difference between EFR 6758 vs 7163s vs Garretts/others etc?


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## DocT (Dec 17, 2014)

Tin said:


> Reading these posts, its got me thinking, I'd be interested to see how 600/800/1000/1200hp cars compare via different tests, standing/rolling starts etc.
> 
> Is there a really big difference between EFR 6758 vs 7163s vs Garretts/others etc?


You basically read my mind.

Also why are the costs for doing these builds not available for potential owners to see. I mean there should at least be some kind of guide considering a lot of GTR owners like to work their way down the upgrade path.


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

DocT said:


> You basically read my mind.
> 
> Also why are the costs for doing these builds not available for potential owners to see. I mean there should at least be some kind of guide considering a lot of GTR owners like to work their way down the upgrade path.


Litchfields have alot of their prices on the website, but as there are numerous different setups, it can get quite tricky. 

As you can go for uprated turbos (without touching the engine [risky but capping torque to 620lbs]) to say 750-800hp, and run that for a while, and then going back to work on the engine internals.. Then the gearbox etc etc.. thus not having a bigbang bill.
opcorn:


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

DocT said:


> You basically read my mind.
> 
> Also why are the costs for doing these builds not available for potential owners to see. I mean there should at least be some kind of guide considering a lot of GTR owners like to work their way down the upgrade path.



This is part of the reason why I started this thread. There are fairly clear guidelines and pricing up to Stage 5 but beyond this it's hard to cost a build beyond 750BHP.


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## jaapio (Mar 11, 2015)

AAM Competition - Nissan GT-R, 370Z Turbo Performance Specialists

here are a few prices for several packages.


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

G2GUV said:


> On the plus side - the whine of a built box is just pure music! Almost sounds like a supercharger winding down when slowing down for junctions and blipping down the gears :bowdown1:


Nooooooo!! Please don't say things like this - now I want that gear box!! :chuckle:


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## Mr.B (Feb 18, 2016)

I've been trying to find some comparison figures for different stage builds and found these figures on AMS' site:

AMS Alpha 9 - 950BHP / 950ft-lbs
Quarter mile – 9.95 @ 141mph

AMS Ronin - 1000BHP / 850ft-lbs
0-60mph – 2.3 seconds
0-100mph – 5.1 seconds
60-130mph – 5.46 seconds
Quarter mile – 9.8 @ 145mph

AMS Alpha 10 - 1150BHP / 950ft-lbs
Quarter mile – 9.1 @ 163mph

AMS Alpha 12 - 1500BHP / 1120ft-lbs
60-130mph – 3.31 seconds
Quarter mile – 8.97 @ 169.5mph

AMS Alpha 16 - 1840BHP / 1283ft-lbs
0-60mph - 1.63 seconds 
60-130mph – 2.67 seconds


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

You can look at the quarter mile and straight line performance leader board on this website for a lot more info.

If it helps, on an early stage 5 my 2011 car with 740bhp and 710lbft did:

0-62 - 2.65
0-100 - 5.56

Fyi, that was on a stock gearbox and stock engine against Iain Litchfields advice. Shortly afterwards we forged the engine before the standard one let go. On strip down there was no sign of a bent rod but i would say I was lucky.


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

Buzz how come you went away from the 4.1 stroker and back to 3.8, I ask because I'm currently having an ets 4.1 stroker being built


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I think the 3.8 is a better known quantity, with more performance miles under its belt. You also know that the geometry was chosen by Nissan in the first place which can give you more confidence in the choice as bespoke engine programs are not embarked upon lightly.

That doesn't mean a stroker is no good, just little more unknown as there are many options out there.

When you stroke you reduce the rod ratio, which puts higher loading on the bearings, increases the dwell time and side loading of the pistons and the willingness of the engine to rev, but the benefit you get is more torque. You can offset some of these by moving the ring pack higher up the piston, and correspondingly the wrist/gudgeon pin to restore some rod length and keep the rod ratio down. This comes with other disadvantages.

When spending a lot of money, most people want confidence in t he build, more than theoretically a little extra power by virtue of the design. It's therefore the common choice to stick with stock engine geometry and just beef up the known weak points.


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for the reply adamantium, very informative, I was more wondering why he went away from it when he already had the 4.1 in there, if it failed etc


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

stephenwap said:


> Thanks for the reply adamantium, very informative, I was more wondering why he went away from it when he already had the 4.1 in there, if it failed etc


I know Buzz lost a motor while driving at normal RPM's cruising along, ill let him chime in and say who built it and what the outcome was.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Adamantium said:


> I think the 3.8 is a better known quantity, with more performance miles under its belt. You also know that the geometry was chosen by Nissan in the first place which can give you more confidence in the choice as bespoke engine programs are not embarked upon lightly.
> 
> That doesn't mean a stroker is no good, just little more unknown as there are many options out there.
> 
> ...


What do you mean by reducing the rod ratio? How does the 4.1 get built? Is it longer rods and max bore size? I know a lot of people now stay 3ltr on the 2JZ's where the 3.4 used to be very popular. Only advantage of a stroker in a turbo car is more torque low down as you can just keep running more boost to make HP, I had a 3.4 2JZ and also a built 3.0 the 3.0 made 1250 @ the hubs on unleaded but the graph looked like a 2 stroke, the 3.4 had way more area under the graph.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

stephenwap said:


> Thanks for the reply adamantium, very informative, I was more wondering why he went away from it when he already had the 4.1 in there, if it failed etc


It blew up y0. My second engine failure as my SVM Stage 4.25 blew first. Massive fall out with them over it, but no point going into detail as most people know it. I've moved on but can't see myself ever dealing with them again. You're only important if you spend big money, and at the time I did not spend big money with them.

BUT I've learnt a huge amount about these cars and in particular the engine, so should I have any further issues, I will be able to resolve it quickly and cost effectively also very happy with my current tuner JM Imports. On top of that, generally the GTR community is fantastic and you really feel part of the family when so many people reach out to give you help and honest advice. When you modify and daily drive the car, you need to take so much more care than someone who uses it as a weekend car. I do around 10-15k miles a year and drive quite hard so expect more problems than most!

You won't have anything to worry about with your ETS stroker kit, I may do that in the future mate.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

dudersvr said:


> What do you mean by reducing the rod ratio? How does the 4.1 get built? Is it longer rods and max bore size? I know a lot of people now stay 3ltr on the 2JZ's where the 3.4 used to be very popular. Only advantage of a stroker in a turbo car is more torque low down as you can just keep running more boost to make HP, I had a 3.4 2JZ and also a built 3.0 the 3.0 made 1250 @ the hubs on unleaded but the graph looked like a 2 stroke, the 3.4 had way more area under the graph.


The rod ratio is the length of the stroke to the length of the rod.

When you increase the stroke you tend to decrease the rod length. Otherwise you need to move the gudgeon pin further up the piston which has a knock on effect on the rings.

All of these things change the characteristics of the engine in terms of its efficiency, wear rate etc.

Probably a bit too involved for this thread.


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

I had similar problems with svm, won't go into it either but yeah I decided to go stroker for the bit extra it cost as I was probably going to need a crank and definitely rods anyway so made sense to me to go for the stroker


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Why do folks take one up the shitter from companies like SVM then fail to pass on their experiences to prevent other people being shafted in the same way?

They get away with murder.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

charles charlie said:


> Why do folks take one up the shitter from companies like SVM then fail to pass on their experiences to prevent other people being shafted in the same way?
> 
> They get away with murder.


+1 and the general populus are left thinking they are all rosey, when things arnt sometimes. knowledge is power, isnt that what communities are for? to stop your fellow GTR owners, from being shafted as well.

However as always, these things tend to have 2 sides as well.


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

I was giving them a chance to resolve the matter, will post all info if it's not resolved and I've gathered sufficient undeniable evidence


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

charles charlie said:


> Why do folks take one up the shitter from companies like SVM then fail to pass on their experiences to prevent other people being shafted in the same way?
> 
> They get away with murder.


I am assuming that wasn't aimed at me as think most people know of my issues with them mate!

The reason people don't come out is they have this idea that they might actually be helped/supported and not lose out massively. They are also told to keep quiet and given more promises/ "great offers" which makes them think they are winning and should just keep quiet as worse things have happened and somehow they have been given the deal of the year. When in reality there is no "great offer" as the margins in this industry are pretty good so if anything they have still made money! It's when more things go wrong that total confidence is lost and people decide enough is enough and either move on or tell their side. It's a horrible situation to be in when you are £10k down and have this crazy idea that you might actually get some of it back if you play ball and have faith in the company that put you in the position!

There are also some who have more money than most so just move on as there is always a risk modding cars!

There are always 2 sides to a story without question especially when it involves a business and person, but I have learnt a lot from mine which means when things start to go wrong, start documenting everything, send e-mails DO NOT discuss things on phone without recording conversations and make sure you speak to the owner NOT the sales guy who can be used as a scapegoat. 

The irony is, regardless of the stories that are shared, there are SO MANY owners who ignore this and continue to use tuners services then find out the hard way so to be honest, you can only do so much! 

Anyway should get back to topic. 

1200HP on a budget.. definitely possible!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Personally i don't think you can look at an individual example of a problem, you need to look at a pattern.

I have had one client who despite all warnings that he'd come out with nothing, wasted a lot of money with me. I told him at length i probably couldn't get him a patent and if i did, it would be next to worthless but he insisted.

He now has next to nothing to show for his investment of £10k but somehow forgot the warnings i gave him and thinks to this day he's been fleeced. This is despite email proof of what I've said above.

I can hand on heart say I'm totally blameless in this, and that another lawyer would have charged much more without conscience.

I feel bad for the guy but if he were writing in a forum about me, even with the evidence on my side, some people would be put off, some might be skeptical, some might be fine.

Trouble is many would think there's no smoke without fire so what can I do?

The guy became malicious, aggressive and nasty. Yet on a forum, I'd be the one to suffer.

Now if five people all said the same thing, I'd be starting to worry about myself.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

buzzysingh said:


> I am assuming that wasn't aimed at me as think most people know of my issues with them mate!
> 
> The reason people don't come out is they have this idea that they might actually be helped/supported and not lose out massively. They are also told to keep quiet and given more promises/ "great offers" which makes them think they are winning and should just keep quiet as worse things have happened and somehow they have been given the deal of the year. When in reality there is no "great offer" as the margins in this industry are pretty good so if anything they have still made money! It's when more things go wrong that total confidence is lost and people decide enough is enough and either move on or tell their side. It's a horrible situation to be in when you are £10k down and have this crazy idea that you might actually get some of it back if you play ball and have faith in the company that put you in the position!
> 
> ...


Buzz I know what trials and tribulations you've been put through and no, it wasn't aimed at you.

It wasn't aimed at any particular individual, more the wall of silence that goes up around these dreadful happenings that mean that innocent parties walk like lambs to the slaughter.

We are a close knit group and bad business practices should not be allowed to flourish and succeed.


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

SVM raised my eyebrow when I asked them the price to change my front discs and pads (I supply) and they came back at "4 hours with additional time may be required".


Litchfeilds quoted me if I have it done at the same time as the service, 3 hours for everything.


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

I can't comment on my situation as of yet as I'm seeking compensation and it's being dealt with by a third party, if I don't get satisfaction I will be sure to tell everyone what's happened on every forum I am a member of, back to topic, 1200 is definitely achievable on a budget as buzz said and first port of call should be jurgen, he's done me a fantastic deal on my build, I've added numerous parts as I've gone along and he's always advised me on the best way to go and strived to give value for money, as I added these parts he's never increased the labour costs to fit them as he would have every right to, he's a top man and always kept me up to date on progress even to the extent of messaging me late at night when I had questions etc


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## stephenwap (Mar 26, 2010)

Also I can't imagine it ever taking 4 hours to change discs and pads on a car, I've dropped complete subframes, diffs, exhausts and gearbox on both my r34 and my brothers 300zx in that sort of time, discs and pads are an hour job max


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

stephenwap said:


> Also I can't imagine it ever taking 4 hours to change discs and pads on a car, I've dropped complete subframes, diffs, exhausts and gearbox on both my r34 and my brothers 300zx in that sort of time, discs and pads are an hour job max



Yea, granted it is the discs with the bells being swapped over, but none the less, 4 hours, I had to scoff.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

kindai said:


> Yea, granted it is the discs with the bells being swapped over, but none the less, 4 hours, I had to scoff.


It's not that unreasonable, 3 hours I would say, but it depends what their hourly rate is, it doesn't matter if they take all day if the rate is £10 per hour.

On my previous R35's I changed all 4 corners - discs and pads at the same time, and my local trusted mechanic would have the car all day. Yes he is slow and meticulous, but that's the way I like it, he's the only mechanic I 100% trust, having built that trust over the last 20 years. When I collect the car I know everything will be spot on and meticulously double checked. I like that.

Btw, if you want a proper scoff, Nissan once quoted me £3100 to change front discs and pads, that has to be around 2k labour haha


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Trevgtr said:


> Btw, if you want a proper scoff, Nissan once quoted me £3100 to change front discs and pads, that has to be around 2k labour haha


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## JohnE90M3 (May 31, 2010)

Great for track use, BUT UK roads :chuckle: Prison term.:flame:


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