# Two die at Nurburgring during TF.



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Very bad news yesterday. Two die and two marshals seriously injured during Touristenfahrten.

Seems a Honda Civic crashed into two marshals who were inspecting/repairing barrier from a previous crash at Kesselchen. Both Civic occupants dead and both marshals in critical condition.

Pics of the Honda are shocking.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Google translation from German press.

"Two killed in accident at the Nordschleife

On the Nürburgring on Saturday a terrible traffic accident occurred. Two people were killed, three others were injured. The casualties were with private cars on the road.

The police Koblenz announced that sailed a reception with two cars late Saturday afternoon, the Nordschleife, which is released for so-called tourist drivers. The car was traveling at excessive speed and strayed in a curve of the track.

Subsequently, the car then crashed loud message in a group of people. These were therefore two marshals and another privateer, who were there, because the man had previously a minor accident.

Marshals seriously injured

The two occupants of the wayward off the track car died, the marshals suffered serious injuries. The standing besides the road tourist drivers went into shock."


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## Fowla (Jan 29, 2016)

I just had a look at the crash news report, and the pic of the civic is truly sickening. they poor occupants didn't stand a chance. The forces involved to twist a chassis like that... 

I'm finding it hard to work out what actually happened, they mention that there was a minor crash at the location a little while before the civic reached the corner, therefore 2 marshals were inspecting the barrier when the civic lost control and crashed at the same spot but judging by the pictures surely the car must of crashed into another stationary car? but there is no mention of the other car in the report that I have seen.

Would you be able to shed some light on this Moleman? 

http://www.swr.de/-/id=17839662/pro...all auf der Nordschleife des Nürburgrings.jpg

^ Link to a picture of the civic


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Fowla said:


> The forces involved to twist a chassis like that...


Aren't actually a lot, cars a not as strong as people think. Sad they lost their lives but maybe a cautionary tale to some who think they are track gods.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Fowla said:


> Would you be able to shed some light on this Moleman?


No. My mate messaged me from there this AM. She said same as above.




TAZZMAXX said:


> Sad they lost their lives but maybe a cautionary tale to some who think they are track gods.


Bit early to judge without knowing circumstances, but it does seem likely that the yellows at Lauda Links/Bergwerk, which would have been on with marshals on the road, were not seen or ignored.


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

The Civic hit the car that was already stationary, it was an English guys car that was stationary in the the first impact, the Civic then hit it and the marshals at high speed, the two killed were French, a young guy driving and his girlfriend.


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## Tinyflier (Jun 13, 2012)

The warning lights at Bergwerk are about 2 km before this curve (bend 4 going up Kesselchen).

That part of Kesselchen can be quite tricky and by then you could have built up a fair turn of speed.

Utterly tragic that 2 people have lost their lives needlessly.

David


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Tinyflier said:


> The warning lights at Bergwerk are about 2 km before this curve (bend 4 going up Kesselchen).
> 
> That part of Kesselchen can be quite tricky and by then you could have built up a fair turn of speed.


But once you see yellows you should slow down and not speed up until you pass the hazard.


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## Tinyflier (Jun 13, 2012)

moleman said:


> But once you see yellows you should slow down and not speed up until you pass the hazard.


Absolutely agree with you on that point - is easy though for drivers to assume the lights are proximate to the incident not 2km or more away - patience isn't always the strongest emotion shown on the circuit. 

David


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Tinyflier said:


> patience isn't always the strongest emotion shown on the circuit.


Sad but true.


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## Cardiff R33 (Jan 16, 2004)

Tragic but I do think a road (track) as popular as nur should have digital lighting on track not flags, it's a bit outdated now.

That's always my biggest fear at the ring, coming hurtling around a bend and into a stationary car.

Thoughts are with those involved and hope the Marshalls pull though. Can't believe it was open today tbh


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

They should close the venue down for public use its just way too dangerous for adrenaline fuelled amateurs. We see crashes all the time and most cannot even drive and are a risk to themselves and others. Still sad to hear the passing of the guy and his girlfriend


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## Chris_Gojira (Oct 1, 2012)

Maybe it's hindsight, and maybe it's just me being used to decent safety measures but, is FIA Cage, FIA seats and FIA harnesses not the first place to start when building a track car?

That said, crashes can kill you at 50KM/h as well, so how much use would it have in an old civic...


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## alexcrosse (May 7, 2014)

They do have some digital lighting. Just not enough leading up to that site. 

The yellow lights are not good enough though, because it is very easy to assume its for oil or something and after 30 seconds or so you usually tip in again.

It is horrific, but they need to learn from this and put more money into displays. Certainly not stop tourist laps, that would be the end of the nurburgring.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

You can put in all the lights and flags at marshals posts as you like, it will make little difference to the amount of accidents when there is no briefing system in place to explain them.

There are safety signs and "the rules" everywhere at the entrance and the safety video playing on a loop, but how many people take any notice of any of it?


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Red mist kicks in - everyone wants to show how good they are based on how fast they can go on roads, often not very good at all and pay the price when they don't respect the Ring.


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## Robbie 733 (Feb 25, 2005)

The latest news I heard was that the last set of yellow lights (nearly 2 kms prior to the parked car & Marshals) were not working.

There were some lights flashing prior to that, but how many times at the 'Ring do you encounter 'Caution' flags or lights only to find that the obstruction has long since been moved ?

Greater CCTV coverage combined with more lights are the answer, but only if you are given a mini briefing as you buy your ticket.


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## git-r (Nov 15, 2005)

I was there when this happened  

As much as I love going there it seems so unnecessarily dangerous. 

Nearly every accident I've seen could've been avoided with some basic car control. The warning flag/lighting system simply isn't good enough. 

Talking with my friends today they're all saying I shouldn't go back, deep down I know they're right but for us petrol heads it's such a unique place and is our pilgrimage. 

Regardless of it being a tourist day or track day it's the most dangerous place to drive, allowing anyone to do so is madness but what's the answer?

Robbie - great to see you and Suzy - hope you got back ok and that your car is back to health as soon as poss


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## Cardiff R33 (Jan 16, 2004)

I do agree, its the most dangerous I have driven. Not just becaue of the hills and blind corners but with so many different cars and drivers there is a big difference between lap times. On top of this you have flags not lights.

I am going out end of next week for two days at spa and a weekend at Nur but since doing a trackday at Nur i wont push myself much on a tourist lap ever again.

I also think helmets should be compulsory, loads of my mates dont both and I keep telling them its the most dangerous track you will drive why wouldnt you! Crazy.


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## Alan (Jul 1, 2001)

Just got back from there as well and was on track 30 mins before this happened. Very sad news.
On the Sunday it was shut for a few hours whilst they cleared up the mess of 2 other cars. 
We also drove Spa which was much better as it was a proper track day :wavey:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Alan said:


> We also drove Spa which was much better as it was a proper track day :wavey:


This is the rub. Many people go to the Ring and treat TouristenFahrten like a track day.

I've said many times on here that an individual has to weigh the danger versus fun. The Nordschliefe itself is only as dangerous as you make it, just like any other circuit. For a few years I didn't do TF because of the the insurance situation, etc, but in all honesty I missed it.

It's the unique circumstances around TF that needs attention. The same people that ignore the numerous signs, safety videos, lights, flags, will also ignore a briefing.

Compulsory helmets would help, but that underestimates the amount of casual visitors who just turn up to have a drive around. Helmets were rare when I first started going and only became more popular because one of the Ring forums pro-actively tried to educate drivers by handing out leaflets in the car park, etc.


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## alexcrosse (May 7, 2014)

git-r said:


> Talking with my friends today they're all saying I shouldn't go back


That's easy to say... Have they ever been though?


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

It would seem that there was another death there today.

A 67 year old German man on a motorbike Nurburgring training day hit the barrier just after the Karussell at the entrance to Hohe-Acht.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh dear, how many fatality's in a year???


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

I don't think it's properly recorded. The couple in the civic were the first TF deaths since 2011 though.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

And this is what happens when yellows are ignored. Oil on the road. Check out what happens at 1:30 in.






As for plum in the BMW who tries to move his car after an impact like that without checking the car first. Ridiculous.


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## alexcrosse (May 7, 2014)

I think he did the right thing to move it to the other side of the track asap, brunchen has to be the #1 hero corner because people want to impress so he could be certain more people like him would be coming. It would be very hard to think straight after doing a 270 into a wall at the ring, but I think he was correct.

Barrier damage + recovery fee would have been about 2-3k for that little incident. Poor guy.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

moleman said:


> And this is what happens when yellows are ignored. Oil on the road. Check out what happens at 1:30 in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bellends, all of them.

The blue shirt guy is lucky to be alive, twice.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

alexcrosse said:


> I think he did the right thing to move it to the other side of the track asap


No argument with moving it, but he should have checked the car first. If you watch, his right front suspension is snapped and he could have ended up immovable in the middle of the road.

Yeah, we know, Trev. You don't like the Nurburgring. lol


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## Robbie 733 (Feb 25, 2005)

Judging by the number of idiots ignoring the waved yellow flag, and subsequently skidding across the grass, slap bang in the middle of the track was probably the safest place to be ! :thumbsup:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

You may be right.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

moleman said:


> No argument with moving it, but he should have checked the car first. If you watch, his right front suspension is snapped and he could have ended up immovable in the middle of the road.
> 
> Yeah, we know, Trev. You don't like the Nurburgring. lol


I LOVE it there, just not the idiots you find.

This kind of behaviour wouldn't stand on a UK trackday.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

I was there... the clown in the RS dropping al the oil just drove off, despite my mate in the black Porsche cayman (next to come round the corner) stopped alongside and told the RS driver to pull o ver as it was dangerous... the total bell end kept on driving till the finish. 
thank god, he got whistle blowed, was arrested and his car confiscated until he started paying up!.

for those commenting the track days are better... well they are not. 
I was also doing the trackday earlier in the week and there were just as many crashes and idiots flying off all over the place. the only difference was (thank god) there were no motorbikes.. people "claiming" tro have driven the ring before, when clearly they hadn't got a clue..

IMO - there should be a mandatory minimum of 10 track days experience before you are allowed anywhere near the ring.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

Ps, useless bit of info - the most crashed cars on the `Ring over the weekend were BMW`s.. closely followed by the new Golf R`s and Renaults ! .... lol


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## Rocketbunny6666 (May 4, 2011)

nick the tubman said:


> I was there... the clown in the RS dropping al the oil just drove off, despite my mate in the black Porsche cayman (next to come round the corner) stopped alongside and told the RS driver to pull o ver as it was dangerous... the total bell end kept on driving till the finish.
> thank god, he got whistle blowed, was arrested and his car confiscated until he started paying up!.
> 
> for those commenting the track days are better... well they are not.
> ...


was it Schnelleschwaben trackday you was on

I did DN15 end of July and thought the driving standards was pretty good and only a few crashes


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Trev said:


> .. just not the idiots you find.
> 
> This kind of behaviour wouldn't stand on a UK trackday.


The Ring really exposes buffoonery that you'd get away with elsewhere. I was at a MLR day at Cadwell in '14, where there were 13 red flags and stoppages during the day.




nick the tubman said:


> I was there... the clown in the RS dropping al the oil just drove off, despite my mate in the black Porsche cayman (next to come round the corner) stopped alongside and told the RS driver to pull o ver as it was dangerous... the total bell end kept on driving till the finish.
> thank god, he got whistle blowed, was arrested and his car confiscated until he started paying up!.


Good. 




nick the tubman said:


> for those commenting the track days are better... well they are not.
> I was also doing the trackday earlier in the week and there were just as many crashes and idiots flying off all over the place.


This is why I started doing TF again. Other than Marshalls and a lack of motorbikes, there is no discernible advantage to track days.


I'm going in a couple of weeks for the first time in almost 18 months for DN and TF. I will be driving miss daisy until I settle back into it.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

Rocketbunny6666 said:


> was it Schnelleschwaben trackday you was on
> 
> I did DN15 end of July and thought the driving standards was pretty good and only a few crashes


No, it was pistenclause...

have to say they were brilliant. but some of the clowns just blagged their way on.. even when asked if they had experience, they just lied.

some owned up and were given "L" plates... and some of them were having tuition. so that was ok as they had "spotters" in with them.

it was the clampets in the likes of Golf R`s, that thought they were there to set a qualifying lap in the DTM, that caused a lot of the trouble...

Karma that they smashed up their cars I guess..


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## Rocketbunny6666 (May 4, 2011)

nick the tubman said:


> No, it was pistenclause...
> 
> have to say they were brilliant. but some of the clowns just blagged their way on.. even when asked if they had experience, they just lied.
> 
> ...


You will Find alot of golf r and the new era of fast hatch are pretty quick but most of the drivers have no talent


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Rocketbunny6666 said:


> I did DN15 end of July and thought the driving standards was pretty good and only a few crashes


DN 10 was shut for over seven hours across two days, so Darren hasn't allowed novices for a couple of years.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

this trackday was also shut for quite a while...

and yes, all the cars were either E36 bmw`s or the latest hot hatches. 
not wanting to stereotype, but all the drivers I saw, looked under 30, their jeans were half way down their arse, so looked like they had shat themselves (probably did after the crash) with beckham counterfeit tattoos.. stood on the wrong side of the barrier, waiting to get knocked over..


not one, Ferrari, Porsche, McClaren, GTR, or other supercar crashed. funny that !

but , hey, a mapped golf R on street tyres is way faster than any supercar on 1B tyres - face palm !


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