# **** My Engine went POP today R35 GTR



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

more to follow just got home in my beat up astra estate i had to buy to get home..


car will arrive at my workshop in few hours..

details to follow...


so gutted but shit happens..


am wondering if its the dreaded engine bearing pump thats being popping engines..


maybe all cars have shit bearings..(mine lasted a lot longer)

will investigate and report back...


ALEX i might need your help as mine is tuned.


car has ran fine and everything was sweet i did 7 hours driving prior to this.


No sign whatsoever... just bang..


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

so gutting but it will be back bigger, badder and stronger.:thumbsup:

but for now :bawling:


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

So sorry to hear this buddy.

For the sake of my sanity, keep the info flowing....


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

before the speculation.

i always change oil every 3k, always warm up.,


i also made a post HERE last year asking the question, that is the MOBIL 1 oil upto the job of HIGH SPEED 

all temps were fine prior to explosion..


it just bizzare:sadwavey:


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

Oh no ! were you at the pod today.Fair play to you guys who are pushing the 35, hope you get it sorted without too much hassle.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Jurgen, you've a JDM right?


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

charles charlie said:


> For the sake of my sanity, keep the info flowing....


Just popping out for a quick reflash?


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Sh1t, that's the news we all dread!

Was it bad, i.e. piston through the block, or is it rebuildable?

Unusual for a JDM isn't it? If it were a LHD Euro car within the problem build numbers, we would not be surprised, but a "medium tune" JDM...

BTW, no idea if it's relevant and bearing in mind the conditions you mention before the blow, it might not be, but I've switched to Motul because I have no faith in Mobil 1. Having said that, it couldn't save my R33's engine from blowing 3 times... :bawling:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

yes jdm mate, but question JDM bearings might last longer than the EDM ones..


i think there might be a big issue somewere..

maybe not good for nissan:bawling:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> Sh1t, that's the news we all dread!
> 
> Was it bad, i.e. piston through the block, or is it rebuildable?
> 
> ...


bits of engine everywere mate:bawling:, had new oil prior to me going down south too.


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

really gutted
was looking forward to meeting you today at the pod

when we heard the news , every one felt sick,(no one botherd running)

you must find out why and keep us informed

all the best kk


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Zed Ed said:


> Just popping out for a quick reflash?


Been on OEM map since MH had it in about 2 weeks ago.

I'm due tranny and oil fluid change at 12 month service so staying OEM til then. Drove it around today to bed in my new pads and it was as slow as sh;t!!


Jurgen, I wonder if your failure is the oil pan rubber sealant shredding into the intake like some already have seen?


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## GTaaaaaarrrrrr! (May 4, 2006)

Gutted for you Jurgen. Keep your chin up mate :thumbsup:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

charles charlie said:


> Been on OEM map since MH had it in about 2 weeks ago.
> 
> I'm due tranny and oil fluid change at 12 month service so staying OEM til then. Drove it around today to bed in my new pads and it was as slow as sh;t!!
> 
> ...


funny you mention sealent as i seen some in the bits i found on floor


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

charles charlie said:


> Been on OEM map since MH had it in about 2 weeks ago.
> 
> I'm due tranny and oil fluid change at 12 month service so staying OEM til then. Drove it around today to bed in my new pads and it was as slow as sh;t!!
> 
> ...


do you have a link mate:thumbsup:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

kevan kemp said:


> really gutted
> was looking forward to meeting you today at the pod
> 
> when we heard the news , every one felt sick,(no one botherd running)
> ...


yes i was too mate, am pretty sure i had a 10.5 10.6 in it.. it was so fast ask benji he saw the difference in it..

will start to look at it on saturday..


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=33580&view=findpost&p=459867

I think there was some other posts over at NAGTROC regarding the sealant around the oil pan being haphazardly applied and thus detatching into the sump. It's only a short swim into the oil intake pipe.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Terrible news Jurgen


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

it looks like it leaked from passenger side..( a guess)


were is this oil pick up or pump


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Nuts! Sorry to hear this Jurgen, not what you needed one week before Thunder Road. Stroker time


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

thanks for the support guys..

but i need to figure it out what it is first but am hoping its the issues thas been happening,.


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

hi can i ask 1/ is it firing on all six still?
2/ was their any noise when she started to smoke?

give me a call and ill go threw if you want 2 moz kk


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

To my knowledge (and limited it is btw) the first oil issue was starvation probably caused by ill placed fragments of oil pan sealant coming away and being sucked up into the oil pick up pipe which drops down into the oil pan under the engine block.

The end of this pipe has a simple mesh filter which, if clogged, would lead to a sudden loss of oil pressure in the block.

Remove the bottom of the oil pan and see if you have any rubbery pieces around.

Alex had a possible oil starvation issue but from what I remember, Nissan ran off with his oil and engines pieces before he could look at them.

I'm sure he will post some help as soon as he sees this thread.


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## bhp (Sep 13, 2008)

oh sh..IT sorry to hear Jurgen, hope it gets sorted for you mate!


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

gutted for you mate after all the hard work you put in. suspect same oil pan sealent / bearings


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

:sadwavey:


kevan kemp said:


> hi can i ask 1/ is it firing on all six still?
> 2/ was their any noise when she started to smoke?
> 
> give me a call and ill go threw if you want 2 moz kk


Er, "pieces of engine everywhere" implies there is a hole in the block, so I doubt it is firing on anything...


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> :sadwavey:
> 
> Er, "pieces of engine everywhere" implies there is a hole in the block, so I doubt it is firing on anything...


correct, ok guys been to workshop and there is bits of everyting there :bawling:


wait to see what alex thinks.. the difference is mine happend whilst moving rather than idle.

and if its moving and you lose oil the its not going to be pretty..


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## bobd (Mar 25, 2008)

Dont wish to jump the gun here, but if it is sealant blocking the oil pick up then this would surely initiate a recall for all if its happening on more than the odd occasion. I feel for you mate. My view for all tuned motors is to get the sump sealed properly asap. Not worth not even checking if it proves to be the case.
As for the rest - under warranty I assume.
Hope she's sorted soon at not too much cost. Good luck


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Holy shit.........thats not good,mate :sadwavey:

I don´t think its a bearing failure like i had it as none ever happend to not "LHD early EU cars".....but maybe it is the sealant rubber problem some guys have seen when removing the oilpan

I mean if the engine gets not enough oil due to a restriction in the oilpickup,it will do exactly what yours did...explode:bawling:

There was a case with maybe the same failure in Beirut iirc....the guy posted the pictures on here,broke a conrod and lost oil like yours.......

Did you maybe take a look at the oilpressure gauges around the time your engine broke?? 

best regards
Alex


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

Bad news, hope you get it resolved and can't wait to see the reinCARnation once it's back on the road!


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Holy shit.........thats not good,mate :sadwavey:
> 
> I don´t think its a bearing failure like i had it as none ever happend to not "LHD early EU cars".....but maybe it is the sealant rubber problem some guys have seen when removing the oilpan
> 
> ...


tbh could not see as i was more worried about getting off the 3 lane motorway onto hard shoulder..

what happen to guy in beirut , did nissan warranted his claim.


i have never removed oil pan on mine.


i would say car was hot but nothing excessive like what you would see on a track day.


am not so sure this mobil oil is up to the job too ( i raised this issue last year and maybe it might come to haunt me)


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Hmm, what is involved in removing the pan to check the sealant? 
Wasn't there an extended oil pan with an o-ring in the aftermarket?

What year is your car Jurgen? I wonder if the later Euro cars had modified assembly protocols if they spotted this...


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> Hmm, what is involved in removing the pan to check the sealant?
> Wasn't there an extended oil pan with an o-ring in the aftermarket?
> 
> What year is your car Jurgen? I wonder if the later Euro cars had modified assembly protocols if they spotted this...


remove undertay mate, easy job..

mine is a june 2008..

i have a hunch its oil starvation to engine,.:bawling: which is nissan using to much sealent.

there was a lot of sealent in my bits.


some pics coming later today...


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Jm-Imports said:


> tbh could not see as i was more worried about getting off the 3 lane motorway onto hard shoulder..
> 
> what happen to guy in beirut , did nissan warranted his claim.
> 
> ...


http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/130871-my-engine-blew-up-i-am-cursed-help.html

Here you go...maybe contact him direct to see what happend to his engine:thumbsup:


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Sorry to read about this jurgen.

Glad you got off the motorway safe and sound.

Hope you get to the bottom of things. If i could, i'd offer to help, but i'm clueless. 

All the best.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

a pic for now


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

That'll be a lot of bits then....


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Youch!!!! That looks pretty catastrophic....

Seen many an engine in this state in my time....never good.

Hope you get to the root of the problem. 

TT


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## Jacey Boy (Apr 24, 2005)

Jesus, that looks like outer space:bawling:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

looks like something just went BANG crash wallop..


will have more pics on saturday will take photos of the removal.


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## G40tee (Feb 25, 2008)

tits mgee that is a lot of shrapnel! 

sorry to see this mate. Things arent looking good for these r35s recently. Hopefully the cause is figured out soon enough and sorted (hopefully under warranty if nissan fault)


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Might be worth sending some oil off for analysis?

Probably won't tell you anything you didn't know but it might be able to identify if the correct bearings had been installed?

We feel for you man! I won't be doing anything else to my engine until you have a clearer idea of the cause, or I might just get someone to take the oil pan off and redo the sealant.

Ben, do you have an aftermarket sump pan in the pipeline?


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## bazza_g (Sep 10, 2009)

Hey Jurgen, catching up with this - really sorry to read of your woes - just as you were set to beat Ben's time this happens! 

If it does turn out to be some bit of sealant thats come adrift and blocked the oil suppy, presumably that could happen to any R35 tuned or stock... If a bit was blocking would you see the engine oil pressure go really high or really low before going bang?


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Jm-Imports said:


> a pic for now


Blimey! You did a good job on that one alright. Is that a wrist pin I see sitting in amongst that lot?


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

Sorry to read about this jurgen

Could you tell us was mods you were running please?

Paul


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

I think my Cobb will be staying in the box until the reason for this is established.

Hope you get it sorted without too much pain to the wallet and than Nissan show some interest in establishing what has caused this terminal damage.

Can GTROC ask NGB or NEU to take a look at this?

D


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> Might be worth sending some oil off for analysis?
> 
> Probably won't tell you anything you didn't know but it might be able to identify if the correct bearings had been installed?
> 
> ...


were can i send the oil, if i can find any that is..

because i dont rate this mobil 1 stuff


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

bazza_g said:


> Hey Jurgen, catching up with this - really sorry to read of your woes - just as you were set to beat Ben's time this happens!
> 
> If it does turn out to be some bit of sealant thats come adrift and blocked the oil suppy, presumably that could happen to any R35 tuned or stock... If a bit was blocking would you see the engine oil pressure go really high or really low before going bang?


i will investigate it, and your right could happen to any r35. 

mine has a bit more miles so maybe clogged up a bit more


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

paul__k said:


> Sorry to read about this jurgen
> 
> Could you tell us was mods you were running please?
> 
> Paul


just bolt on mods, nothing major..


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

other guys with the same issues..

but a little earlier than when mine happened and before recalls.


Dr. `WTF' or how I learned to question the sanity of the GT-R engineers. *Video Added* - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club


My engine exploded.. i am cursed..  - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club failure&st=0


am not hopefull of nissan helping but something is weak on these cars.


and they need to try and identify it now before more major massive failures happen on the motorways on hard accelarating with mild mods.


when this happened i was accelarating from 60mph..


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

email to nissan has been sent.


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

Jurgen,

I really feel for you, that is a disaster!

A picture paints a thousand words and all that, what a mess!

Not wanting to be negative but JDM car and modified so don't pin all your hopes on a warranty claim it will only send you crazy........

Maybe i am wrong but this will have nothing what so ever to do with Nissan UK

Could be sealant issue with resultant oil starvation or detonation leading to catostrophic failure

Keep your chin up


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

ScottyB said:


> Jurgen,
> 
> I really feel for you, that is a disaster!
> 
> ...


not getting my hopes up, but this is going to happen to more cars so maybe in the best interest of NISSAN to see what is failing or what is weak..


if they dont assist then there will be more issues for sure, hopefully we can rectify it with nissan help.

if not then i will have to upgrade mine internally and it means a lot of guys with bolt on mods will be ON NERVE every time they BOOST it.


a mean an extra 120 bhp on the stock motor is not or surely can cuase this kind of damage..

from accelarating hard 60mph..

the GTR should be really cruising.


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

Jm-Imports said:


> not getting my hopes up, but this is going to happen to more cars so maybe in the best interest of NISSAN to see what is failing or what is weak..
> 
> 
> if they dont assist then there will be more issues for sure, hopefully we can rectify it with nissan help.
> ...


I hear you mate and am genuinely gutted for you.....

Bear in mind though that the GTR engine has plasma liners, nobody knows what sort of effect the additional power of 100+ BHP is having on these, it is all unchartered waters.

I know from my Subaru days that extra power and plasma liners = big repair bills and complete engine failures like this.

These problems are not going to appear overnight, what we MIGHT be seeing is the accumulative effect of additional power and liners not being able to cope over a year+

It might also be detonation, i had to work hard with our very own expert on here to get detonation figures to a reasonable level, it actualy meant i was running a map with 10% boost less than "everyone" else with similar spec'd cars just because mine appeared to have a tendancy to produce high knock figures.

It could also be the sump sealant as you suspect, nobody will know until a proper failure mode analysis is carried out on the engine (Going to be difficult with it being in many pieces) I can recommend a very good engine builder/inspector if you want him to do a report) 

He appears at court as an expert witness for claims against garages/maufacturers etc.

I can send you a copy of one of his reports so that you can see the quality if you want?

The only real way to find out is to have the engine looked at.

Regards

Scott


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

ScottyB said:


> I hear you mate and am genuinely gutted for you.....
> 
> Bear in mind though that the GTR engine has plasma liners, nobody knows what sort of effect the additional power of 100+ BHP is having on these, it is all unchartered waters.
> 
> ...


you are right mate, as mine has been modded a lot longer than others here..

but look at the guy from lebanon same failure with only exhaust mode - which suggest could be something with design or part.

or it means - not good news as the VR38 cant cope in a modded state..

but i will be getting engine inspected to see if its the mods or the sealent.

i still think the vr38 is stronger than this.

please send me that report..

[email protected]

cheers


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

got a call about this at the weekend mate, cant belive its happend

anything i can do just hollar


hopefully you will get a reasonable reply from nissan however i really doubt it


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

Nightmare mate, sorry to hear the news.

Was your car modded any more than say a Cobb Stage 2?


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

ChuckUK said:


> Nightmare mate, sorry to hear the news.
> 
> Was your car modded any more than say a Cobb Stage 2?


little bit more than stage 2 yes


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

uke: when i look at the mess as the engine is in bits


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Sorry to here about your engine failure, who mapped your engine? I am new to Cob tuning understanding is a Cob stage 2 tune just a generic set of maps thats flashed in for general stage 2?

I work mapping OEM engines and when you say you have "only added" 120 bhp, the piston manufacturer will state a maximum cylinder pressure to the OEM who will then map up to the limit to ensure the engine lasts the warrenty period. 

An OEM manufactuer measures cylinder pressure using individual cylinder pressure tranducers and some very expensive high speed measement equipment. As far as I know no tuner measures cylinder pressure. It is basically ignored and this is were the extra power is mostly found.

If you add an extra 120 bhp you will have certainly pushed the cylinder pressures further than Nissan (were allowed by the piston manufacture), then what starts out as a small crack could easily lead to complete piston failure followed by caboom as the engine explodes. There will also be a maximum cylinder pressure the rod can cope with and is why most UK tuners will change rods on an Evo before pushing them so far maybe the GTR also has weak rods.

So yes only "120 bhp" could result in a failed engine even if you dont have det, pulling some ignition out may help if this looks not to be a lubrication issue. 

I also dont think this is a l_iner issue as l_iner failure "normally" results in loss of compression not the engine grenading itself.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David said:


> Sorry to here about your engine failure, who mapped your engine? I am new to Cob tuning understanding is a Cob stage 2 tune just a generic set of maps thats flashed in for general stage 2?
> 
> I work mapping OEM engines and when you say you have "only added" 120 bhp, the piston manufacturer will state a maximum cylinder pressure to the OEM who will then map up to the limit to ensure the engine lasts the warrenty period.
> 
> ...


some good points, but it the vr38 cant hold this small extra power then its bad news for tuning r35 gtr id say..


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Jm-Imports said:


> some good points, but it the vr38 cant hold this small extra power then its bad news for tuning r35 gtr id say..


Agreed, I was hoping the R35 would make more hp on standard internals as I would like one in the future, but it is quite highly stressed as standard (unlike the 26). Maybe it will make after market rods and pistons much cheaper?


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

There are dozens, if not hundreds of GT-Rs in the US that are running way, way over 120hp more than standard.

One has just run a 9.89s 1/4 mile at 147mph!
It has got uprated pistons but has a COMPLETELY STOCK BOTTOM END.

AMS GT-R WORLD'S FIRST GT-R in the 9's! - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club
Circa 900hp at the flywheel on race fuel.



David said:


> Sorry to here about your engine failure, who mapped your engine? I am new to Cob tuning understanding is a Cob stage 2 tune just a generic set of maps thats flashed in for general stage 2?
> 
> I work mapping OEM engines and when you say you have "only added" 120 bhp, the piston manufacturer will state a maximum cylinder pressure to the OEM who will then map up to the limit to ensure the engine lasts the warrenty period.
> 
> ...


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

presumably 600bhp plus RB26s went pop occcasionally?

are we assuming the VR38 internals can take more power because the RB26 could? Bear in mind the RB started life at 280bhp(  ) and a typical VR is 500 plus at birth.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> There are dozens, if not hundreds of GT-Rs in the US that are running way, way over 120hp more than standard.
> 
> One has just run a 9.89s 1/4 mile at 147mph!
> It has got uprated pistons but has a COMPLETELY STOCK BOTTOM END.
> ...


david were can i send my oil for analysis.. its fresh so not sure what they might find ??

also i agree the vr38 is stronger than this..

am just hoping its not the seal issue as many guys/gals will need to now modify theirs or check oil pan for sealent on regular basis..


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

David.Yu said:


> There are dozens, if not hundreds of GT-Rs in the US that are running way, way over 120hp more than standard.
> 
> One has just run a 9.89s 1/4 mile at 147mph!
> It has got uprated pistons but has a COMPLETELY STOCK BOTTOM END.
> ...


With exactly the same mapping and same fuel? 100 Ron is commonly available in the states!

There maybe some which are Ok others that aren't as these engines like anything mechanical are built to a set of tolerances there will be good and bad.

As an example I know the performance engines I work with could if the tolerances were right vary in compression by 1/2 a point Engine to engine. To take account of this we map on truely nominal engines (i.e blue printed) and top limit (i.e built to the mechanical top limit) to ensure they last.

So the guy running 9's found the stock pistons to be not so good?

I am not posting for a bun fight, but trying to explain how OEMs develop engines to be reliable and how the tuning industry pushes past/ ignores those limits.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Same mapping as what? Of course it was custom mapped and as I stated was on race fuel for that run.
My point being that the stock rods, crank, bearings etc seem to be more than up to the job.

Don't think the pistons failed, but they were changed as the tuner predicted they would not be up to the power they were going for.

I agree that the longevity of the plasma-sprayed ***** would be my limiting factor. If it only lasts a few thousand miles at a certain power level, then going further is way too rich for my blood.

Nobody's done a definitive test to find what that level is yet, but nearly all of the US mega-builds are still on stock block/liners.



David said:


> With exactly the same mapping and same fuel? 100 Ron is commonly available in the states!
> 
> There maybe some which are Ok others that aren't as these engines like anything mechanical are built to a set of tolerances there will be good and bad.
> 
> ...


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

I have been mapping Japanese turbo engines for 10 years and reverse engineering ECUs for the last 5. I added what I consider to be essential logging of knock before doing any serious GTR tuning. This was tough because I have not seen documentation that any other Nissan OEM ECU has ever had knock logging by a tuner. I also refused to seriously tune any boost control until I had the opportunity to rewrite the boost control to stop dangerous spikes on the OEM system. I have also held off tuning any cars with injectors or intakes well beyond where others were diving in as I had not written the proper controls to map load and control the clutches properly. I am proud to have been advising on the logging of the 9 second mentioned along with several others running around 800 WHP whatever you translate that into on UK dynos.

In terms of previous engine failures over the many cars I have mapped, one R35 before this one failed - it had faulty bearings as we all now know about. None of the Evos I mapped failed, although I didn't do many. Of the many Subarus, I heard that about 1% of the ones I mapped failed - one did big end bearings at about 250km/h but had continuous knock monitoring and was knock free (and standard Subarus of that age did big end bearings), and one P1 blew up three times - once before I mapped it, once after I mapped it, once after another tuner mapped it before an intermittently faulty knock sensor was discovered that didn't throw a code. My personal stock UK Subaru engine was the first to have 400 BHP and survived, my later 2.5 hybrids did have headgasket trouble and I cracked one ring land with one single unpredictable knock event (without knock control racing a 911 turbo and winning briefly  ), but I was running more than 100 BHP over what anyone else dared to try on this engine to find the limits and today those same limits are still adhered to as it has known weak pistons and headgasket seal.

We come onto Jurgen's car which I and GTC mapped.

We held back the boost to 5 PSI below what some others have run on similar spec as even though this results in nearer to 600 lbft rather than 700 lbft we wanted to control temperatures, have the car robust for the track and also give the gearbox/clutches a chance. The final logs looked good enough that they were actually sent as examples to other tuners trying to perfect their big MAF sensor mapping. The boost control was smooth, fuelling safely rich (people often ask me to lean them out but I aim for mid 11s on pump fuel and would tend towards low 11 rather than high 11s if given the choice), and the knock was less than what many standard cars show. It was mapped in the same way that I and others are tuning loads of GTRs that run more boost, more power and have had extensive competition and track use. Fuel octane, turbo size, presence of cats, air temperatures, cooling and intended use all affect things, but this engine has failed on a map that is considerably more cautious than it could have been and that are running others harder.

If the engine has failed because of oiling problems or a structural weakness there is little more to say other than to find out whether the same affects other engines.

If the engine has failed because of detonation (which can give cylinder pressure spikes 10 times the level of normal and needs huge respect) that would be concerning because the knock control is active on this engine and many GTRs are relying on the same system, some stock engines are pulling 5 degrees of timing where Jurgen's was pulling often none, sometimes 1 or 2. Yes knock would do more damage at 19-20 PSI than 11-12 PSI stock, but the knock control on the GTR is so good and so quick that what people have reported as hearing knock I think is them actually hearing noises from the gearbox which can sound similar. I have seen examples of horrendous logs of R35 GTRs with 25+ PSI of boost, 13:1 AFR and 7 degrees of timing pulled and they live happily once the map is fixed despite me shuddering when I see the logs. Having enabled the use of knock logging in GTR tuning, whilst I still respect detonation hugely, I believe I have this one sorted on the GTR.

If it was pre-ignition that resulted in failure on this engine, again it would be concerning because whilst there is some info that the parent Renault V6 on which the VR38 is supposedly based was apparently susceptible to pre-ignition, the VR38 shares I think two small parts. It would be surprising that a brief pull from 60mph on a cool day after a period of cruise with uprated intercoolers and no cats would induce pre-ignition.

The mapper's task is to provide correct AFR, timing and boost pressure. In this case these were well within recognised commonly used levels on the GTR. If there was detonation I don't think there is anything that could be done differently in the mapping to avoid it, retarding the ignition more would increase exhaust gas temperatures increasing the risk of exhaust valve/turbo damage, adding fuel would increase smoke and increase dilution of the oil, carbonise the combustion chamber and increase the risk of pre-ignition. Given the evidence of other similar cars running without detonation, I don't think this was the problem unless it was a sudden catastrophic event or caused by another fault such as oil mist suddenly reducing the octane following other faults.

I'm at least as devastated about this news as I was happy when Ben and Jurgen had their 1 and 2 on the same day getting the first and only two R35s in Europe in the 10s last Autumn. Ben and I have a good relationship with Jurgen and hope this will continue, the mapping has been done gratis AFAIK.

It may be difficult to interpret oil or the engine after such a failure.

I think all R35 owners dread this sort of thing happening without a warranty. Even though my own engine runs stage 1 and I love the benefits that brings, the price and inconvenience of fixing/replacing a VR38 are not like a 4G63.

Tuning will go on with the R35 though as in the majority of cases the results are stunning and reliable.

I hope you get this sorted Jurgen, I don't believe I needed to say the above to you as like Alex you have not jumped to blame the mapper and I appreciate that. I aim to be the best informed and most skilled that I can be at what I do, although my main interest these days is reverse engineering rather than mapping. So with all precaution taken, when this happens it is still ****.


----------



## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

I don't think anyone would blame you or the map Thistle.

For us laymen, could you explain the difference between knock, detonation and pre-ignition?


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

thistle my car has just been featured in 3 world mags (due out soon)

you and ben come highly praised by me..(we have been working from day 1 with ben even when mine came to uk back in early 08).


i have the logs and i have seen them..you have seen them.

and they are all Excellent..


so GUYS dont panic about the MAPPING, 

this fault is a sealent issue or bearings for sure...

so its something we need to find out, as mine has had more miles than most of you (these faults might take longer to surface)..

sadly for me its causing me a headache right now, but for the rest of you it means - once we find cause be it sealent or oil quality - you can learn from this and save your VR38.

i seen a lot of sealent on my bits..

so thats what it looks like..


Cheers for all the support , emails and even phone calls.

hopefully nissan can work with me so we can avoid this in future..

i know if i was Nissan i would rather recall V38 to replace sealent for a different method of gasket rather than have engines going left righ and centre further down its life and costing a lot more..if this prooved to be the sealent or weak material.

some faults will or might appear after more miles and nissan has not been there yet to find out.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Without jumping to conclusions, it makes me want to get on and get the gear oil changed (I remember Willall's scary filtergrams on stock oil after 5000 miles and mine is nearly there on original gear oil) and take my engine sump off to see what the pickup looks like (again after this and Willall's earlier scary photos of half the pickup covered in sealant).

David Yu, there is still controversy now about knock and detonation, but I use them as equivalent terms meaning the same thing - sudden combustion of the end gas or parts of the air fuel mixture that the flame front has not yet reached. It happens after the spark plug has fired and results in spikes of high cylinder pressure that cause a pin in a can noise, an impulse on a knock sensor, spikes on a cylinder pressure trace. It can be caused by a combination of high charge temperatures, excessive ignition advance, lean air fuel ratio, excessive compression ratio (static or dynamic - ie engine design, carbonised, or too much boost), excessive exhaust manifold pressure, oil mist, incorrect plugs, poor octane and more. The controversy is over how the noise is made, whether by collision of two flame fronts or supersonic shock waves. Nevertheless, the damage that results can be nasty - ring land failure, head gasket failure, spark plug damage, piston crown damage, damaged rod bearings.

Pre-ignition is where the mixture ignites spontaneously before the spark plug fires. It can be due to lots of causes, but is supposedly rare on modern engines. It can destroy even a forged engine very quickly. It is said to make no noise at all until you find yourself with broken engine bits. I don't believe I've ever experienced it. It often produces a hole in the middle of a piston. Detonation can lead to preignition. Both can break down the normal boundary layer that protects the alloys of the engine parts (particularly the piston crown) from the combustion temperatures which are often above their melting point.

The aim in mapping is to have lots of air mass in the cylinders whilst controlling temperatures and knock. This is based on good parts selection and appropriate fuel, timing and boost levels. With a turbo engine you can get double the air mass and as long as you avoid knock can have much less than double the peak cylinder pressure as the pressure curve is spread over a wider crank angle which is why when things go right you can get away with ridiculous increases in output on stock engines (especially if decatted, on high octane and using bigger turbos), I usually have much more trouble with gearboxes.


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Jurgen,

Cant put into words how i feel for you.:sadwavey:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

just had a pleasent phone calll from nissan technical..


and they will look into this matter asap:thumbsup:

they are very concerned and want to help find out what could of happen.

so am really please to say nissan are taken a genuine interest in their customers cars globally.

its something that needs to be address as am further down the line than others in terms of milege.


cheers all


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## Godders (Oct 7, 2009)

Jm-Imports said:


> just had a pleasent phone calll from nissan technical..
> 
> 
> and they will look into this matter asap:thumbsup:
> ...


That’s good to hear. Nissan need to robustly protect their reputation and I regardless of warranty position there is an ethical and moral obligation to investigate. Keep us informed of how they support you, please. They must have a few spare engines knocking around Amsterdam for you to cannibalise, don’t you think??? Good luck, we all feel for you.


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Jm-Imports said:


> just had a pleasent phone calll from nissan technical..
> 
> 
> and they will look into this matter asap:thumbsup:
> ...


Good news....we mainland europeans have put a lot of pressure on Nissan in the last weeks....they have to look after their GTR customers after all the BS they have made,hope that they begin with you:thumbsup:


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## Bucky (Mar 21, 2003)

Jurgen what fuel have you been using??


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Bucky said:


> Jurgen what fuel have you been using??


Fuel doesn´t break conrods:sadwavey:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Bucky said:


> Jurgen what fuel have you been using??


i had put 15 pounds of shell vpower 5 minutes prior to this happening on sunday near hertfordshire


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Godders said:


> . Keep us informed of how they support you, please. They must have a few spare engines knocking around Amsterdam for you to cannibalise, don’t you think??? Good luck, we all feel for you.


lets hope so, i am hoping:thumbsup:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Good news....we mainland europeans have put a lot of pressure on Nissan in the last weeks....they have to look after their GTR customers after all the BS they have made,hope that they begin with you:thumbsup:


i think its in the best interest even if they take my car or engine as a study for them as part of research and development.


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## Bucky (Mar 21, 2003)

EvolutionVI said:


> Fuel doesn´t break conrods:sadwavey:


It does if it detonates.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Good that Nissan are taking an interest.

Agree det could break a rod although it seems more often that it gradually damages the rod bearings and pistons over time, but even if the V-power was actually 95 RON, I believe the ECU is good enough to save it, Jurgen's map could pull 13 degrees of timing in as many engine cycles if it needed to, an incredibly quick and effective countermeasure which is why I don't think that is the cause.


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Jm-Imports said:


> just had a pleasent phone calll from nissan technical..
> 
> 
> and they will look into this matter asap:thumbsup:
> ...


That's positive news that Nissan have shown interest. I'll be watching attentively to see the extent of this help. With a bit of luck they'll be able to isolate what is going on and prove it's not a generic flaw, because it has got me seriously questioning the order I have just placed.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Two possible causes are what I'm thinking..

1. Clogged oil uptake pipe due to shoddy silicone sealant..

Or...

2. We have bearing issues outside of the claimed VIN range and markets that Nissan has stated.


The plot will continue to thicken.

And good luck to you Jurgen, I feel for you buddy


----------



## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Bucky said:


> It does if it detonates.


A good working tune does not knock.....JM´s car did for sure not knock,as we all know who did the tune:thumbsup:


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## chrisburns (Jun 24, 2009)

I've been following this with great interest and am delighted for you Jurgen that Nissan have stepped up to the plate.

Thistle, you know your stuff - *very* impressive reporting :thumbsup:


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## d1198r (Dec 31, 2008)

I am very sorry to hear this and gutted for you. Also, highly appreciative for the openness and willingness to share this to help us all. 

How many miles had you done? I have done 20,000 in mine.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

little update,


had a motoring section of a national newspaper call me this morning about the car breaking the engine., and if i can give them a story,..,( am not going to)


due to all the toyota hype recently they are jumping on all avenues etc..


amazing how bad news spreads fast. :bawling:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

d1198r said:


> I am very sorry to hear this and gutted for you. Also, highly appreciative for the openness and willingness to share this to help us all.
> 
> How many miles had you done? I have done 20,000 in mine.


17k


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

glad they are taking a serious interest in this mate, hopefully you will get some results!


----------



## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

Jm-Imports said:


> little update,
> 
> 
> had a motoring section of a national newspaper call me this morning about the car breaking the engine., and if i can give them a story,..,( am not going to)
> ...




That's pretty good of you actually, I hope Nissan appreciate the gesture. They ****ing should do, that's for sure!!!


The paper will probably make something up anyway, ****ers.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

markpriorgts-t said:


> glad they are taking a serious interest in this mate, hopefully you will get some results!


they might just say its modded and jdm (and we are not interested), but at least we are talking to them ..

so fingers crossed..


----------



## chrisburns (Jun 24, 2009)

Boosted said:


> That's pretty good of you actually, I hope Nissan appreciate the gesture. They ****ing should do, that's for sure!!!
> 
> 
> The paper will probably make something up anyway, ****ers.


True, im sure Nissan have folk who brouse the forums and im sure this will be noted.
Very fair of you Jurgen.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Boosted said:


> The paper will probably make something up anyway, ****ers.


i hope not as am not prepared to give them any info - at the end of the day am a GTR fan/supporter.


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

Jm-Imports said:


> i hope not as am not prepared to give them any info - at the end of the day am a GTR fan/supporter.


Hopefully they won't be that stupid. If they start talking bollocks about something that isn't confirmed yet, and then it turns out the paper was wrong, then I imagine that Nissan will be in a position to sue the arse off them. And rightly so.


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## Godders (Oct 7, 2009)

Jm-Imports said:


> little update,
> 
> 
> had a motoring section of a national newspaper call me this morning about the car breaking the engine., and if i can give them a story,..,( am not going to)
> ...


That should focus Nissan on the issue. That's worth more then an engine replacement!!! Good on you but trade that with Nissan if you need to.


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## R1Mark (Jul 7, 2003)

I'm glad Nissan are talking to you Jurgen.......however the cynical side of me thinks it may be an effort to pacify in the wake of Honda's troubles........can you imagine the damage to Nissan if a story about their flag ship model range suffers failures due to reliability and quality issues......even the suggestion of of a possible fault would probably be enough at the moment.

I hope not..... but given Nissan's stance on warranties with regards modifications it does seem to be a bit of a U-turn?

All the best in getting the car restored Jurgen.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

R1Mark said:


> I'm glad Nissan are talking to you Jurgen.......however the cynical side of me thinks it may be an effort to pacify in the wake of Honda's troubles........can you imagine the damage to Nissan if a story about their flag ship model range suffers failures due to reliability and quality issues......even the suggestion of of a possible fault would probably be enough at the moment.
> 
> I hope not..... but given Nissan's stance on warranties with regards modifications it does seem to be a bit of a U-turn?
> 
> All the best in getting the car restored Jurgen.


lets hope they help or look into it, if they dont it could come back and bite them in the ass..i dont think wether its modded or not to blow an engine to pieces at crusing speed of hard accelerating from 60mph for R35 gtr is not normal..


something is weak or LACK of oil due to SEALENT pick up..

My oil was fresh so i dont think it has lost viscosity,.

am going to start to strip car on saturday.


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## R1Mark (Jul 7, 2003)

Keep us updated as I'm about to go with more tuning on my R35.....but feel a little apprehensive now:nervous:


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Im really happy for you that Nissan is looking into this problem,im sure it can happen to anyone on here if tuned or stock.....Nissan has yet not been great in warranty on their products,hope they find the turn and stand behind the cars they build:smokin:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Im really happy for you that Nissan is looking into this problem,im sure it can happen to anyone on here if tuned or stock.....Nissan has yet not been great in warranty on their products,hope they find the turn and stand behind the cars they build:smokin:


hope so mate i know you had a lot of issues with them, but these things are putting people off.


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

Jm-Imports said:


> little update,
> 
> 
> had a motoring section of a national newspaper call me this morning about the car breaking the engine., and if i can give them a story,..,( am not going to)
> ...


im jumping ship you get much kinder comments lol
did you get a crain then? or go for the table lift that nissan
use?? still cant get over how our friend could use a crain! going down lol

may be you use sky hooks and lift the car off the engine lol

good luck again if you want any help im their mate kk
ill get back to doors and badges lol


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

hi kevan,

we will use sccisor lift and the table, and document strip down for nissan unlees nissan intervene,.

but they have given me go ahead to tear down.


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

Jm-Imports said:


> hi kevan,
> 
> we will use sccisor lift and the table, and document strip down for nissan unlees nissan intervene,.
> 
> but they have given me go ahead to tear down.


hi jurgan couple of tips 
let windows down 1" as the doors wont shut after removing battery
remove battery (most important do not re connect for any reason
as it will store all sorts of fault codes)as the battery will be off for some time (especially the steering angle code for some reason)a consult three is then required...but i have a fix lol
make sure its in N as you wont be able to steer ( lock comes on)
if you have to move her!!
as ive said engine comes down!! stays on cradle front pipes/turbos/loom
everthing stays on.even the steering rack .the loom is removed from the ecu inside the car.most inportant to leave on engine!!
ive seen some pros not do this lol

as i recall your lift is quite low.. send her up to max and the engine is lowerd out on your new!! scissor lift leave struts calipers hanging!!

if you want to move the car out of the workshop
re fit the sub frame on its own reconect steering coupling
pop your wheels on and away you go/im sure you will need the space

as nissan decides................ hope you dont mind the hints i dont want to be sticking my nose in if its not required regards kevan

im not just a secret badge man


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

kevan kemp said:


> hope you dont mind the hints i dont want to be sticking my nose in if its not required regards kevan
> 
> im not just a secret badge man


your input is very much appreciated mate, :thumbsup:

we have a new ramp coming on wed for the car as i would rather it stays there and does not move...

new ramp

YouTube - gregsmithequipment's Channel


am actually looking forward to the strip down and the reborn..

if nissan provide a new engine..:sadwavey:


what i need kevan is prices of the bigger turbos, might aswell get these in now lol..


----------



## Dave270r (Oct 9, 2008)

Sorry to hear about this 

Hope your learning experience helps others from going the same way.

Good luck :thumbsup:


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## mr mugen (Jan 11, 2007)

going to be an interesting job pulling the engine,are all the parts going to nissan for inspection after?
is anyone on the japanese r35 forum?, maybe this has happened someone over there already


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## bhp (Sep 13, 2008)

kevan kemp said:


> hi jurgan couple of tips
> let windows down 1" as the doors wont shut after removing battery
> remove battery (most important do not re connect for any reason
> as it will store all sorts of fault codes)as the battery will be off for some time (especially the steering angle code for some reason)a consult three is then required...but i have a fix lol
> ...


Kevan,

Who do you work for?


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

bhp said:


> Kevan,
> 
> Who do you work for?


he has his own garage and a tasty r35 gtr..


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

bit of an update,-

we have started to investigate and initial cuases look like oil starvation..


so could possibly be the sealent stuck to oil pump pick up or bad bearings..


both mean bad news for us all.:bawling:

but i will get pics and come up with a solution unless nissan come up with it before me.


maybe these GTR sumps are not designed well enough for the job...

you will find old rbs and nissan have issues with cheap pumps and cheap sump design.


----------



## ANDYR35 (Sep 1, 2008)

Sorry to hear what happened.

Good to see you are making some headway with possible causes........lets just hope Nissan do right by you!


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Have you taken the oil pan off and had a look at the sealant around it?
If it's messy, maybe that was where the problem was.

My car is going up to Middlehurst's for its 12 month service week after next; should I get them to take the pan off and examine the sealant? Just how common is this problem?


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

The main place I saw it discussed before was by Willall on NAGTROC. He has an early JDM. I'm not sure if anyone knows if it is just a problem with the early cars or not.

Whilst a simple job to redo the sealant, you'd need to be very sure that the redo was not worse than the factory? Presumably in the factory the engines are on an engine stand with excellent lighting where the engine could be inverted to get a level upwards surface, the block and sump faces newly manufactured and completely clean of oil and previous sealant, in ultra clean conditions. If they can get it wrong, what chance for even a well equipped garage to do it better from underneath with a used engine in the car? It seems such a simple task to mess up though.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

thistle said:


> The main place I saw it discussed before was by Willall on NAGTROC. He has an early JDM. I'm not sure if anyone knows if it is just a problem with the early cars or not.
> 
> Whilst a simple job to redo the sealant, you'd need to be very sure that the redo was not worse than the factory?


Exactly, and if Willall are the only people to ever have spotted this, just how prevalent a problem is it? Early JDM matches this car though...

Are Forge doing an extended engine sump pan as well as a trans one?
I prefer the sound of a nice O-ring than some randomly applied silicone myself...


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

David.Yu said:


> I prefer the sound of a nice O-ring than some randomly applied silicone myself...


i cant understand why they have come from factory like this ?


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

Doesn't anyone make a proper gasket or something for this, I for one would have it replaced even if failure wasn't 100%


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

bit of an update,,..


no news from nissan they were keen at first but had no contact since..

on thursday the pan will be off..


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

ChuckUK said:


> Doesn't anyone make a proper gasket or something for this, I for one would have it replaced even if failure wasn't 100%


for sure and maybe an uprated oil pan,.:thumbsup:


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

Jm-Imports said:


> bit of an update,,..
> 
> 
> no news from nissan they were keen at first but had no contact since..
> ...


I think it might strengthen your position, if you had an independent engineer or similar, present for the dissassembly.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Zed Ed said:


> I think it might strengthen your position, if you had an independent engineer or similar, present for the dissassembly.


i have that already on the cards:thumbsup:


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## bhp (Sep 13, 2008)

i think its time we started to be proactive rather than reactive


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

What about one of these, O-Seals among other advantages.

Willall Racing - WR35 GTR Performance Parts


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

ok i have started the removal/strip down..

do you want a new thread or just keep it on this one ?


cheers


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Keep this one...makes it better for viewing.

buy a nice cam and take pictures of everything.....everything


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Keep this one...makes it better for viewing.
> 
> buy a nice cam and take pictures of everything.....everything


cam comes tomorrow..


and looks at this



a nasty failure in america.


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Where is this failure from??:sadwavey:


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

ChuckUK said:


> What about one of these, O-Seals among other advantages.
> 
> Willall Racing - WR35 GTR Performance Parts


We need Ben/Forge to come out with a UK built version of this pronto! :thumbsup:


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Jm-Imports said:


> cam comes tomorrow..
> 
> 
> and looks at this
> ...


That casing is wafer thin! I would really have to think hard about going for any serious power upgrades having seen stuff like this. It makes you wonder how many components are designed to be completely on the limit and will never have the durability under added load. This engine doesn't even rev that high. At least the American tuning houses seem to be into everything and are addressing the weak points.


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## mava_rules (Feb 22, 2006)

just what i was thinking, thought it would be a bit more substantial.


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

The thickness of the casing doesn´t make it break.....its the failing parts that breaks it....

The casing which you can see,is mainly there to hold the oilpan...the block itself is thick and holds what you throw after it(appart from rods).

Tbh,the VR38 is much better stock then any RB26 engine.....no problems what so ever,just a few enginefailures(appart from the bearing related failures in europeean cars)....nobody knows why...


----------



## bhp (Sep 13, 2008)

ChuckUK said:


> What about one of these, O-Seals among other advantages.
> 
> Willall Racing - WR35 GTR Performance Parts


Now thats what im talking about!!! $1750 not that bad if it resolves the problem, might have to start looking into this part sooner rather than later.


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## Frosty (Aug 9, 2001)

TAZZMAXX said:


> That casing is wafer thin! I would really have to think hard about going for any serious power upgrades having seen stuff like this. It makes you wonder how many components are designed to be completely on the limit and will never have the durability under added load. This engine doesn't even rev that high. At least the American tuning houses seem to be into everything and are addressing the weak points.


I don't understand what you mean. That component is not designed to stop a connecting rod. The thickness of it is totally irrelevant. If the component did manage to survive - so what? Your engine is still wrecked. A piston that lets go at a great speed will very rarely stay within the engine and they tend to exit directly in front of the path in which they were moving.

Would you say your house windows were not up to their job if someone threw a brick through them?


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Really sorry to hear about this ,hope you get it back on the road soon .


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

here is photos of the day it happened :bawling:, the recovery of car back to my workshop and now on my new ramps just for this project..

sorry for the quality of pics but new camera is here tomorrow.,.

and tomorrow we start to strip her down..:thumbsup:


mag shoot












on the flatbed










back to my shop some 11 hours later..




























oil on rear bumper










































































some bits we picked up just by sticking hands inside undertray..



















on the new ramps

























































some big holes


























all the underneath needs removed and cleaned due to oil.


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## mava_rules (Feb 22, 2006)

Frosty said:


> I don't understand what you mean. That component is not designed to stop a connecting rod. The thickness of it is totally irrelevant. If the component did manage to survive - so what? Your engine is still wrecked. A piston that lets go at a great speed will very rarely stay within the engine and they tend to exit directly in front of the path in which they were moving.
> 
> Would you say your house windows were not up to their job if someone threw a brick through them?


fair enough, you just automatically assume when you think of engines, that they have fairly thick walls to cope with the stresses/heat etc. i wouldnt expect it to stop a rod, just to be a bit thicker thats all. i supose gone are the days of over engineering.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Frosty said:


> I don't understand what you mean. That component is not designed to stop a connecting rod. The thickness of it is totally irrelevant. If the component did manage to survive - so what? Your engine is still wrecked. A piston that lets go at a great speed will very rarely stay within the engine and they tend to exit directly in front of the path in which they were moving.
> 
> Would you say your house windows were not up to their job if someone threw a brick through them?


The point I was trying to make is that there appear to be certain components on this engine (and gearbox) that are at the limit already. Obviously the casing wouldn't stop the rod going through but I was a little surprised at the thin section, hence the comment. The most important part is why it happened and how it can be prevented from happening again. Whilst the failures we've seen have been few so far, the nature of these failures would lead you to question certain components_ durability_.

Reference your last comment on the windows, it would depend whether they were open or closed at the time of the brick being thrown. Let me know when you intend to come and put this to the test and we can discuss further. We can also compare cars.:thumbsup:


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

jesus looks quite bad from the pics, are the bits youve retrived dis-coloured as in have they been excessivly warm?


----------



## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Jm-Imports said:


> here is photos of the day it happened :bawling:, the recovery of car back to my workshop and now on my new ramps just for this project..
> 
> sorry for the quality of pics but new camera is here tomorrow.,.


Not teaching you how to suck eggs Jurgen, but you'll really have to make sure the pictures are crystal clear when you get the new camera. I've had first hand experience with compiling engineers reports to use as evidence, and quick blurry snaps won't cut it. You need to cover every single stage of the teardown in minute detail, which means lots of clear quality pictures and notes. I'm sure you have all this covered mate. Good luck with the teardown.


----------



## Frosty (Aug 9, 2001)

TAZZMAXX said:


> The point I was trying to make is that there appear to be certain components on this engine (and gearbox) that are at the limit already. Obviously the casing wouldn't stop the rod going through but I was a little surprised at the thin section, hence the comment. The most important part is why it happened and how it can be prevented from happening again. Whilst the failures we've seen have been few so far, the nature of these failures would lead you to question certain components_ durability_.
> 
> Reference your last comment on the windows, it would depend whether they were open or closed at the time of the brick being thrown. Let me know when you intend to come and put this to the test and we can discuss further. We can also compare cars.:thumbsup:


LOL I won't be throwing any bricks. I'm not the hands-on type when it comes to building materials


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

well the engine is out started at 11am and out by 530 pm..(thanks to kevan for a few tips)..


enjoy the pics with new camera..

next week i will strip engine apart..







































































































































































































































































lots lots of sealent


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

more pics


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

holy shit, you ain't shy with a set of spanners!

crap with a camera though 

mook


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Mookistar said:


> holy shit, you ain't shy with a set of spanners!
> 
> crap with a camera though
> 
> mook


first day with new camera and cold weather lol plus i was busy lol


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

what we want to see is the pan off 

JDM owner watching with interest.... you were right on the disks


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

So when you say "lots lots of sealant" do you think there was too much of it, i.e. hanging inside the sump?

Photos showed nothing... 

(Hint, use flash for all the indoor shots!)


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Jm-Imports said:


> first day with new camera and cold weather lol plus i was busy lol


Jam your right elbow into your side to be a human tripod.

Press half way to focus and then the final press, don't push the whole camera so it moves. Just enough to take the photo and this part, you use the left arm to help counter act the downward pressure.

Also you could try the running man looking setting for fastest shutter speed. 

Best of luck with everything.


----------



## bazza_g (Sep 10, 2009)

Mookistar said:


> holy shit, you ain't shy with a set of spanners!
> 
> crap with a camera though
> 
> mook


 Good luck dude with the spanner related business, I'd recommend getting someone else to take the pics as, even with the new camera, thats a shocking effort :clap:


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

good job getting that out in a day mate, who did it?

surprised at the size of the box looks tiny compared to the tunnel


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## kevan kemp (Jan 27, 2010)

well done mate like the ramp

what happend to the scissor table? is that the wooden pallet? lol

top tip

copper washers on turbo banjo joints are different sizes (water and oil)
dont mix them up good luck

i have full breakdown / assembly pics if you req kk


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## countvonc (Feb 11, 2009)

kevan kemp said:


> well done mate like the ramp
> 
> what happend to the scissor table? is that the wooden pallet? lol
> 
> ...


yeah details of the ramp please


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

Great content, only wish they weren't blured.

Force the flash on, or for more natural shots, zoom the lens as far back as poss (wide angle), set the aperature on the lowest F number, iso on auto and make sure you don't drop less than 1/60th to avoid all this blur


----------



## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Keep up the good work....its maybe important for all off us,as long as we dont know why it broke.....

I have some oilreport of a nearly new VR38 engine.....believe me,it not looks good....it has a red "!" on top and shows a lot of contermination....there is something wrong with the oil,it doesn´t what it should,lubricate:sadwavey:

Glad im not running the Nissan s**t anymore:thumbsup:


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## mava_rules (Feb 22, 2006)

thats how i did the engine on my 32, full subframe down with suspension and box.
has to be the easiest way.
i just dont have one of them scissor lifts, would come in very handy.
good luck with the strip and rebuild.
there is an engineering place (prob already know) on algernon industrial park next to beta blast if you need any weak components remaking a little beefier. or need a snapped bolt or whatever removed.


----------



## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

EvolutionVI said:


> Keep up the good work....its maybe important for all off us,as long as we dont know why it broke.....
> 
> I have some oilreport of a nearly new VR38 engine.....believe me,it not looks good....it has a red "!" on top and shows a lot of contermination....there is something wrong with the oil,it doesn´t what it should,lubricate:sadwavey:
> 
> Glad im not running the Nissan s**t anymore:thumbsup:



I got this message from an Italian GT-R owner yesterday who saw low oil pressure readings

"Ben 
as you know i have the oil pressure situation which is not clear ,
for this reason i had send 100 cc of the oil out form my engine to a lunbrificant test labor now i got back the results today and it looks like there are some seatleable solids in oil cooper and some more . the oil viscosity is broken down a little bit too .
Ben do you have a expert for such things in your group ? its a bed situation for me since a do not know if my engine is healthy or if some parts inside are on the way to wear of thank you for your help 
"

---

Run my engine on 10W60 with extended baffled oil pan


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> So when you say "lots lots of sealant" do you think there was too much of it, i.e. hanging inside the sump?
> 
> Photos showed nothing...
> 
> (Hint, use flash for all the indoor shots!)


looks like there is too much overseeping to outside so maybe there is more inside..

i will find out


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

markpriorgts-t said:


> good job getting that out in a day mate, who did it?
> 
> surprised at the size of the box looks tiny compared to the tunnel


box is still in car lol..


me and chris did it mate


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

kevan kemp said:


> well done mate like the ramp
> 
> what happend to the scissor table? is that the wooden pallet? lol
> 
> ...


table lift was no good as the one i bought was raised slightly so it caught car.

but moment of genius.. i will remove wheels and make my own trolley for refitting lol..

thanks for the tips too


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

countvonc said:


> yeah details of the ramp please


GEGMR30 scissor lift mate..


runs of socket on the wall lol


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Keep up the good work....its maybe important for all off us,as long as we dont know why it broke.....
> 
> I have some oilreport of a nearly new VR38 engine.....believe me,it not looks good....it has a red "!" on top and shows a lot of contermination....there is something wrong with the oil,it doesn´t what it should,lubricate:sadwavey:
> 
> Glad im not running the Nissan s**t anymore:thumbsup:


yes i have oil sample in a big jiffy bag, i will send to opie oils..


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

mava_rules said:


> thats how i did the engine on my 32, full subframe down with suspension and box.
> has to be the easiest way.
> i just dont have one of them scissor lifts, would come in very handy.
> good luck with the strip and rebuild.
> there is an engineering place (prob already know) on algernon industrial park next to beta blast if you need any weak components remaking a little beefier. or need a snapped bolt or whatever removed.


nice to know as i want to strenghting a few parts on it


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> I got this message from an Italian GT-R owner yesterday who saw low oil pressure readings
> 
> "Ben
> as you know i have the oil pressure situation which is not clear ,
> ...


send me one of your extended baffled oil pan as soon as mate :thumbsup:


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## bhp (Sep 13, 2008)

as stated before i think we need to be proactive rather than reactive! 

Nissan are not going to do jack shit to rectify this problem globally.

Benji - what do you recommend to avoid this issue? 

1. Extended baffled oil pan?
2. what make of Engine oil?
3. anything else?


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## gtr R33 lee (Nov 11, 2004)

My god what a job and a half!!

Jurgen i hope nissan sort this mate.


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## bhp (Sep 13, 2008)

Its all good nissan sorting it out, but whats to say it doesn't happen again? they would only seal it up again as they did originally. 

They need to confirm that it is the sealant that is causing it and if so to try and correct it for everyone.


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> Run my engine on 10W60 with extended baffled oil pan


What make oil and what make oil pan ?


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## gtr R33 lee (Nov 11, 2004)

bhp said:


> Its all good nissan sorting it out, but whats to say it doesn't happen again? they would only seal it up again as they did originally.
> 
> They need to confirm that it is the sealant that is causing it and if so to try and correct it for everyone.


Im sure if Nissan put a new unit in Jurgen would make sure it didnt happen again:thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

ChuckUK said:


> What make oil and what make oil pan ?



Castrol Edge 10W60 for the past year.

Oil pan GTC Version. currently in testing still to prove it works then will release. Also in testing 2 different tranny coolers


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

i have used 10/60 Agip oil in all my skylines give great pressure and tends not to breakdown to much under hard driving & temps


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## Olly-R (Aug 15, 2008)

whats the oil and make that nissan use?


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## Moff (Sep 27, 2004)

Interesting thread.. Hope all works out ok..


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Olly-R said:


> whats the oil and make that nissan use?


Mobil 1 0-40 which helps it pass cold emissions tests no doubt.
Definitely not a track oil or even good enough for extended hard road driving.

I switched to Motul 300v 10w60 at 5000 miles.

Problem is, even if excess sealant was the cause of Jurgen's failure, how do we know that could be an issue on an '09 and later EDM car?

Having said that, fitting an extended sump with a proper O-ring would not be a bad idea in any event...


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## *Shane* (Jul 21, 2009)

Real sorry to read this mate.

Any word back fron nissan yet ?


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## bobd (Mar 25, 2008)

C'mon Nissan you need to sort the oil and sump sealant issue, or release some findings. The oil degradation issue is becoming prevalent it seems. We have a test lab up the road from our work venue. I think I will drop some in next week as my car has not yet been tracked and the car has been well run in. It would be good for comparison purposes if nothing else.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

we have started to strip this thing down..


a lot of sealent on the pick up most of it is inside the edges of the pick up and some on the face there probably was more there..but now gone after the failure..

oil was fresh only 500 miles or so, but am still a bit unsure on mobil1 for the next engine.


looking at my pics and speaking to various people i think oil starvation has caused this fault. 

- signs of pitted on the crank bearings and also one rod has sort of embeded on crank due to lack of oil pressure or oil or maybe wear after 17k.

so a GTC oil pan is a must for me.

am still working with nissan to try and find a solution on this problem.,.

so it can be avoided..


































































































































ouch this was caused from a hard accelration from 60mph


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

more pics




















































































































































timing chain spot on -- so these are a strong area not even jumped the time either..


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

The oil pickup surface area is VERY small and therefore prone to blocking if the slightest piece of debris comes into contact with it, this is easily avoided at the factory and I am amazed it is so.

Do you have any better lit photos of the pickup unit as the ones posted are all rather dark and don't really show in interior very well? Great job on the rest of them thought :thumbsup:

Update: I take back my comments about the pick up pics, I cross posted during you new upload ... sorry!

It looks like there is a valve (Inlet poss) in the sump debris!!


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

last ones for now


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## markpriorgts-t (May 23, 2004)

jesus mate that is just a epic!! amount of failure 

quite allot of sealent in that pick up pipe, 



on another note that timing setup looks like a work of art, you decided on new engine or rebuild yet ?


just seen the bearing pics, looks a fair bit of wear, cant really tell from the pics but looks like they have been hot at some point


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Arcam said:


> The oil pickup surface area is VERY small and therefore prone to blocking if the slightest piece of debris comes into contact with it, this is easily avoided at the factory and I am amazed it is so.
> 
> Do you have any better lit photos of the pickup unit as the ones posted are all rather dark and don't really show in interior very well? Great job on the rest of them thought :thumbsup:
> 
> ...


adding them as i go along mate


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

markpriorgts-t said:


> jesus mate that is just a epic!! amount of failure
> 
> quite allot of sealent in that pick up pipe,
> 
> ...


yes i have my ideas pop over sometime to my unit.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

were there is a problem there is an opportunity


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Hmm, there definitely flakes of sealant in the pick up, but was there a bigger piece that actually blocked oil flow? Who knows.

Also there is wire mesh protecting the pick up itself, so only a very small piece of debris could get sucked through there, although if it did I'm sure it would wreak havok in the bearings.

Thanks for the post-mortem Jurgen, hope a cause and a solution becomes clear and Nissan help you out.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> Also there is wire mesh protecting the pick up itself, so only a very small piece of debris could get sucked through there, although if it did I'm sure it would wreak havok in the bearings.


its the wire mesh blocked thats the issue as that will reduce the flow of oil to engine and at high rpms for longer periods say 17,000 k miles its going to have an affect.


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## donkey (Dec 13, 2009)

Which of these in the linked doc looks like a candidate to you? If any?

http://www.nb-cofrisa.com/docs/web_fallos_ing.PDF

Your bearing faces look to be in mostly good condition.

Could this be a catastrophic component failure? :nervous: Dare I say it the rod broke due to fatigue. Send the broken one to a metallurgist and they should be able to tell you assuming it was not completely destroyed in the aftermath.

Also the rod mating faces appear to be machined, I thought most rods were cracked these days.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

donkey said:


> Which of these in the linked doc looks like a candidate to you? If any?
> 
> http://www.nb-cofrisa.com/docs/web_fallos_ing.PDF
> 
> ...


looking at that pdf the closest looks like 1 dirt in lubricating system which might have come from oil pick or factory build


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

Jurgen is it a engine out to change the pan and pickup?

R


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Robbie J said:


> Jurgen is it a engine out to change the pan and pickup?
> 
> R


i tried to get it out on the car and i struggled with back middle three bolts due to subframe being in the way..

i struggled got them off in the end with patience..

but if you take the sump off your most likey going to damage it removing it..


so we took mine off once engine was out..

it is possible to do it and it has been done before but i suspect you will most likely damage the oem sump and possible the bottom casing that it goes to.. (just be carefull and get some wall scrapers and gently price it off)..

what miles are you on now robbie


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Might be difficult to tell how quickly the "dirt" appearance on the bearings can arise. Just after the failure a lot of debris could have gone through the bearings.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

16K miles

PM me your chassis number or I will PM you mine

R


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

thistle said:


> Might be difficult to tell how quickly the "dirt" appearance on the bearings can arise. Just after the failure a lot of debris could have gone through the bearings.


we never know thats for sure..

but these engines should not go like this so oil has been an issue ..


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## donkey (Dec 13, 2009)

Your photos show one broken 'rod (the one that did the destruction job on your case) but also a second bent 'rod.

The bearing photos show some wear to one side that can be a consequence of running with a bent 'rod. http://www.thirskauto.net/BearingPics.html

I still vote for failure of weak and fatigued 'rods.

Your bearings really are little forensic goldmines. Photograph them in detail. Also the 'rods!


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

I used to rebuild a lot engines many moons ago, and have picked up conrods down the road due to my own penny pinching.

The brown tarnish on some but not all of the bearing surfaces is not normal IMO.

Exactly what has caused that I'm not sure. But the fact that some of the bearing shells seem OK appears to indicate a localised bearing problem.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

donkey said:


> Your photos show one broken 'rod (the one that did the destruction job on your case) but also a second bent 'rod.
> 
> The bearing photos show some wear to one side that can be a consequence of running with a bent 'rod.
> 
> I still vote for failure of weak and fatigued 'rods.


rods are certainly weak but the some of the pistons that were still connected to crank once inspected showed oil starvation and all of them were the bearings go.

but the pistons and roads are cheap stuff but am really impressed with the crank


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

paul__k said:


> I used to rebuild a lot engines many moons ago, and have picked up conrods down the road due to my own penny pinching.
> 
> The brown tarnish on some but not all of the bearing surfaces is not normal IMO.
> 
> Exactly what has caused that I'm not sure. But the fact that some of the bearing shells seem OK appears to indicate a localised bearing problem.


there is an oil or bearing problem,,.

is the mobil 1 oil a factor in this or do we have cheap bearings in there.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

donkey said:


> Your photos show one broken 'rod (the one that did the destruction job on your case) but also a second bent 'rod.
> 
> The bearing photos show some wear to one side that can be a consequence of running with a bent 'rod. Examples of Engine Bearing Failures
> 
> ...


i think on here it looks like number 3

Examples of Engine Bearing Failures


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## donkey (Dec 13, 2009)

Here's one with some better pics!

http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf


Show us yours!


----------



## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

that is harsh mate i hope nissan do the right thing.

it seems nissan do struggle to make a reliable bottom end from the factory


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

donkey said:


> Here's one with some better pics!
> 
> http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf
> 
> ...


will take some pics


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm impressed, that's a very thorough job that's been done destroying that engine. Very little will be salvageable from that lot with the amount of debris/swarf that's been pumped around. Even ancillaries like oil coolers and lines will need replacing.


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## Come on Geoff (Sep 13, 2009)

*Oil Choice*



David.Yu said:


> Mobil 1 0-40 which helps it pass cold emissions tests no doubt.
> Definitely not a track oil or even good enough for extended hard road driving.
> 
> I switched to Motul 300v 10w60 at 5000 miles.
> ...


David could you please explain why you say Mobil 0w-40 is not good enough and why you chose Motul 300v 10w-60?
I'm changing my oil after 2000 miles and before I go to Millbrook this Sunday. Couldn't believe there's no eng oil change at opto.
Btw I've not seen any low oil temp posts. Been advised min eng/trans 75/65deg before giving it the berries.


----------



## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Come on Geoff said:


> David could you please explain why you say Mobil 0w-40 is not good enough and why you chose Motul 300v 10w-60?
> I'm changing my oil after 2000 miles and before I go to Millbrook this Sunday. Couldn't believe there's no eng oil change at opto.
> Btw I've not seen any low oil temp posts. Been advised min eng/trans 75/65deg before giving it the berries.


Sorry I was mistaken, I've actually put in Motul 300v 15w50. It is an ester-based fully synthetic that has been proven in many motorsport applications.

Opie Oils amongst others have recommended it for the GT-R as being superior to the Mobil 1 factory fill.

I put it in at the 6 month service at 5000 miles and have just had it replaced again now at the 12 month service at 8700 miles.

Only someone who drives their car hard needs to change it that often though as it lasts a lot better than Mobil 1.

In very cold climates, maybe it would be worth switching to a thinner oil so that it can get to the right viscosity quicker, but the UK isn't one of those countries.


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Why do you say it was oil starvation? I look at the pictures and see route cause is piston/rod failure. Debris has then been sucked through the engine causing the marks on the crank

The reason I say this is the end cap and bottom of the failed rod is still attached to the crank. If it had been a lubrication issue the bearing would have spun and the cap been broken or thrown off (i.e bottom of conrod must become significantly detached before it can cause contact with block). Oiling would not cuase the piston to fail in such a dramatic way so why do you say lubrication is the cause?

Also cut open the oil filter and see what is stuck in there


----------



## donkey (Dec 13, 2009)

David said:


> Why do you say it was oil starvation? I look at the pictures and see route cause is piston/rod failure. Debris has then been sucked through the engine causing the marks on the crank
> 
> The reason I say this is the end cap and bottom of the failed rod is still attached to the crank. If it had been a lubrication issue the bearing would have spun and the cap been broken or thrown off (i.e bottom of conrod must become significantly detached before it can cause contact with block). Oiling would not cuase the piston to fail in such a dramatic way so why do you say lubrication is the cause?
> 
> Also cut open the oil filter and see what is stuck in there


+1 As I said in earlier posts, bearings look good, failure of weak rods looks most likely  Still really gutted for you though


----------



## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm inclined to agree with the above and suspect piston failure; one tuner has already suffered from this. I would have expected to see some blueing or a spun bearing had you suffered dramatic oil pressure loss.


----------



## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

if its piston failure ?

what does this indicate to you ?

weak material, too much power ?


----------



## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

The thing is, if it was weak pistons, how come we haven't seen a rash of such failures, particularly in the US where they run even more boost and often on crappy gas?

But cast pistons are more brittle than forged I guess.


----------



## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Piston failure doesn´t sound like the problem.....if there would be weak pistons....a lot more cars would have broken down,a lot more.....my car did a lot of trackuse,a lot of Autobahn highspeed driving,no problems...just with the first engine with the faulty bearings installed it broke down....


How do the bearings look on the broken rod??


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

David.Yu said:


> The thing is, if it was weak pistons, how come we haven't seen a rash of such failures, particularly in the US where they run even more boost and often on crappy gas?
> 
> But cast pistons are more brittle than forged I guess.


David the thing you dont get it that all engines are the not the same for example tolerance on crank sensor alignment, crank trigger wheel, drilling of crank trigger wheel.

Now if you stack these tolernaces up you may find that this car was more advanced than the majority of GTR's built due to tolerance stack up. I.e It is mapped to 23 degrees, but actual ignition applied due to worst case tolerance stack up is +3/4 degrees i.e 26/27. This stack up may only have occured on this or very few engines. The OEM will take account of worst case tolerance stack up but it is ignored by tuners, as if mapped to suit the individual engine it wont effect it anyway, but could be a problem effecting a few engine with generic tunes.

That 3/4 degrees is enough to increase the cylinder pressure further than any other GTR when the generic tune map is applied. Was the car faster/ more torque than other GTR's of similar tune?

The pistons/rods will also have similar tolerances applied and maybe the top ringland was thinner than all others, or it had slightly higher compression than the other 5.

I am not saying that is what happenened, but it is possible and that tolerence stack up is seen on the performance OEM engines I work with and effect a few engines.

It is also not unheard of that the single piston or rod had a defect assosiated with it not detected in the factory which caused it to fail. With the factory tune maybe it would have failed anyway and been replaced by Nissan, but that is the risk of tuning you will never now be able to prove tune or component caused the failure.

I know I currently have a problem engine in Dubia which is showing data no other engine I have ever tested or have access to does. So maybe this is one of those rogue engines that would have failed under standard tune and be replaced under warrenty but through tuning it failed possibly sooner. 

Also if it were my engine I would prefer to have the mapping done on the actual car/engine rather than a generic tune applied which I think is possible with the GTR.


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Jm-Imports said:


> if its piston failure ?
> 
> what does this indicate to you ?
> 
> weak material, too much power ?


IMO cylinder pressure to high cusinging ring rand to fail then complete piston.

Yes weak material, too much power/torque or the other reason I listed.

I think if you put it together with forged rods and pistons you can assume it wont happen again


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

EvolutionVI said:


> Piston failure doesn´t sound like the problem.....if there would be weak pistons....a lot more cars would have broken down,a lot more.....my car did a lot of trackuse,a lot of Autobahn highspeed driving,no problems...just with the first engine with the faulty bearings installed it broke down....
> 
> 
> How do the bearings look on the broken rod??


The engine failed terminally through a thrown rod, right?

So for the rod to have failed there must have been mechanical contact with something. To throw a rod thrown either the bottom rod end cap comes off due to rod bolt, broken cap, spun bearing ect. Resulting in the rod becoming detacted from the crank then on the next revolution the crank forces the rod out of the block. Or rod the piston failure at the top end of the rod

If you look at the pictures of the crank you can see the bottom of the thrown rod is still attached to the crank (i.e end cap has not failed). Therefore, the rod was still attached to the crank, i.e mechanical lock can not occur regardless of bearing condition.

Therefore to get mechanical lock the failure must have occured at the other end, i,e top middle of rod or the piston IMO


----------



## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

David said:


> The engine failed terminally through a thrown rod, right?
> 
> So for the rod to have failed there must have been mechanical contact with something. To throw a rod thrown either the bottom rod end cap comes off due to rod bolt, broken cap, spun bearing ect. Resulting in the rod becoming detacted from the crank then on the next revolution the crank forces the rod out of the block. Or rod the piston failure at the top end of the rod
> 
> ...


As I said in an earlier post it looks like there is an inlet valve in the sump, it could well be a dropped/stuck valve that twa**ed the piston crown and casued a buckeling of the con ron and then failure, once the cylinder head(s) come of I think more of the story will unfold.

The valve also looks like it is bend and stapped/broken off, with a bit of luck I hope to get over to see Jurgan and his engine next week and the heads may well be off then.


----------



## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

This is all very interesting.

Are we now saying that due to engine tolerances that Map was a Map too far ?


----------



## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> The thing is, if it was weak pistons, how come we haven't seen a rash of such failures, particularly in the US where they run even more boost and often on crappy gas?
> 
> But cast pistons are more brittle than forged I guess.


Rare but not unheard of. It only takes a weak one to pass through QC. It probably would have been fine under normal operating circumstances but increased pressures tipped it over the edge. Either way, I believe this failure has happened from mechanical failure/contact and not bearing failure/oil starvation.


To quote one tuner who already suffered from this problem resulting in pretty much an identical aftermath to Jurgen's:



> _Piston #1 and #3 had separated from their lower halves right through the center of the gudgeon pin. As the Conrod's had no piston's to guide them up and down the bore they started smashing the bore, block, oil pump, sump and anything else that got in their way._


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Arcam said:


> As I said in an earlier post it looks like there is an inlet valve in the sump, it could well be a dropped/stuck valve that twa**ed the piston crown and casued a buckeling of the con ron and then failure, once the cylinder head(s) come of I think more of the story will unfold.
> 
> The valve also looks like it is bend and stapped/broken off, with a bit of luck I hope to get over to see Jurgan and his engine next week and the heads may well be off then.


So basically you agree with me, failure started at top of rod piston, just you think piston failure is result of valve failure.

I am not convinced even if there is valve head in sump and other bent valves as once piston has started to fail a chunck of piston can easily be trapped by remaining piston in cylinder against open valves leading to complete piston break up + valve damage.


----------



## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

David said:


> So basically you agree with me, failure started at top of rod piston, just you think piston failure is result of valve failure..


Pretty much yes, it is one of the reasons I want to see the unit first hand with the heads off.



David said:


> I am not convinced even if there is valve head in sump and other bent valves as once piston has started to fail a chunck of piston can easily be trapped by remaining piston in cylinder against open valves leading to complete piston break up + valve damage.


This is very true, but once the heads are off if it was a valve strike there will hopefully be a coresponding mark in the combustion chamber where the valve(s) was bent over and snapped, either way it looks like a piston failure, I would also like to see the cap removed from the big end so the bearing and crank journal can be inspected too. I think only CSI (insert whichever flavor you like here)  could possible rebuild the piston from the broken bits to see the point of failure.


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## Elliott_GTR (Dec 13, 2009)

Jm-Imports said:


> if its piston failure ?
> 
> what does this indicate to you ?
> 
> weak material, too much power ?


So, out of interest, what were you running?

What mods had you done?


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

If it was rogue piston failure, there is -by definition- nothing that can be done to prevent it. Sure you could fit expensive forged pistons, but who knows how they'll get on with the plasma-sprayed bores? (Because they need wider clearance when cold.)

And there have been VERY few catastrophic failures like this in the US where they are running all sorts of boost.

BTW, this car was custom tuned, not generic mapped.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

MiGTR said:


> Piston #1 and #3 had separated from their lower halves right through the center of the gudgeon pin. As the Conrod's had no piston's to guide them up and down the bore they started smashing the bore, block, oil pump, sump and anything else that got in their way. Jurgen's:


Sounds very likely.

Jurgen have you checked remaining good pistons arround ring area for cracks (i.e remove rings and inspect).

I hope to see you get the engine better far better than standard. I hope you find the heads are reusable


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

ChuckUK said:


> This is all very interesting.
> 
> Are we now saying that due to engine tolerances that Map was a Map too far ?


I am not going to say that as I dont want to start another bun fight about after market mapping.

I just say it could have happened as well as possibility for some individual cylinder difference, piston /rod/ valve defect


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

David.Yu said:


> BTW, this car was custom tuned, not generic mapped.


Did they monitor before turbo EGT while mapping do you know?


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

Are the valves one piece? Or are they 3 piece valves, with a seperate head/face, stem, and tip, and then welded together?

If they are three piece, then that might explain why there is a valve head/face in the sump, ie; it became detached from the rest of the valve, and then went on to wreak havoc in the combustion chamber, causing catastrophic failure of the piston and rod. 

The only information I can find about the valves is that the inlet valves are Titanium, and the exhaust valves are Magnesium Alloy. Titanium is stronger than Magnesium, and if it's a one piece valve, then I don't see any reason why it would break up like that, even with piston strike. Surely both valves on that cylinder would be wrecked if that's the case, seeing as they open together. Doesn't piston strike bend valves? That's why I'm wondering if the valves are three piece, and the head/face became detached before the piston reached TDC.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David.Yu said:


> The thing is, if it was weak pistons, how come we haven't seen a rash of such failures, particularly in the US where they run even more boost and often on crappy gas?
> 
> But cast pistons are more brittle than forged I guess.


there is around 10 engine failure that i know off not inc haltechs.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

David said:


> Sounds very likely.
> 
> Jurgen have you checked remaining good pistons arround ring area for cracks (i.e remove rings and inspect).
> 
> I hope to see you get the engine better far better than standard. I hope you find the heads are reusable


we going to strip engine next saturday ie heads..

new engine will be fully builts..

pistons, rods, bearings, h gaskets and sleeves..

i just hope i dont have to uprate the heads tbh..

time will tell on strip down..


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

I'll be very surprised if the combustion chamber of the ****ed cylinder isn't mullered, which means the complete head will need changing. 

Good luck anyway


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

Boosted said:


> I'll be very surprised if the combustion chamber of the ****ed cylinder isn't mullered, which means the complete head will need changing.
> 
> Good luck anyway


everything is going to be replaced /uprated am not using anything from this engine


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

Jm-Imports said:


> everything is going to be replaced /uprated am not using anything from this engine




Makes sense


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

One question with regards Nissan, Jurgen; did they ask you at any point for the engine in its entirity so it could be inspected in-house? Which would be the normal course of action.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

MiGTR said:


> One question with regards Nissan, Jurgen; did they ask you at any point for the engine in its entirity so it could be inspected in-house? Which would be the normal course of action.


nope


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Jm-Imports said:


> nope


Ah, I wouldn't hold my breath for any help from Nissan then. I fear the interest they have shown so far is purely academic. I hope I'm wrong and they offer some help in good faith, but I can't see them warrantying a modified engine. Good luck though mate.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

MiGTR said:


> One question with regards Nissan, Jurgen; did they ask you at any point for the engine in its entirity so it could be inspected in-house? Which would be the normal course of action.



Not for a tuned car, I have nothing to do with Nissan but I know if I found anyone of the engines I an involved with was tuned in anyway the warranty would voided and we wouldn't be in the slightest bit interested in inspecting it. Thats just the way OEMs work you cant expect a messed about product to be garanteed.

If it were my car I would have been tempeted to return it to 100% standard and then ring the main stealer and tell them "it just stopped working". Then press Nissan for a new engine, but you stand no hope if you cant present a standard (untoughed) car to them. 

Looking forward to seeing the new engine, good on you Jurgen for pushing forward and going all out on the engine, it cant be a cheap undertaking .:bowdown1:


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Indeed, all credit to Jurgen for taking this on the chin and pushing on to come back bigger and better.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

another engine just let go in america with no indications and not at high rpms.


just bang


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

I hope it all works out for you Jurgen  Perhaps it’s worth asking Nissan about the engine assemblies they have been using/removing from the European recall cars. I have seen a few popping up for sale. If you could get hold of one of these it might make a cheaper starting point for your upgrades as it is always the small parts like seals and gaskets etc that can add to a long build time and extra expense. Good luck :thumbsup:

I think the engine failure rate has been quite small considering the number of cars they have sold, the power they produce and their likely use. Not that helps the unfortunate people that have suffered failures but compare this to Subaru and their latest STI 2.5 which are having a number of engine problems or the initial batch of BMW E46 M3's or Audi RS4 etc etc 

Regards

Iain


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Jm-Imports said:


> another engine just let go in america with no indications and not at high rpms.
> 
> 
> just bang


moderate boost as well 


One of our customers reported just a little lower oil pressure than Nissan recommends, so decided to check out the oil

Sample went to the lab and came back with a red flag warning for contamentation


stethoscope found big gum bulges inside


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Thats not good Ben, is it a EU car?


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## D-Ranged (Aug 16, 2007)

What the hell is that gum stuff mate?


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## NINEIR0N (Oct 5, 2009)

That sure don't look like HUBBA BUBBA!!


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

Could anyone send us some oil samples so we can have a look at what's happened to the oil? Otherwise any comments from us are just speculation.

Cheers

Tim


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## gtr-loz (Feb 10, 2006)

the gum stuff is the sealant they use to seal components together i.e block to sump


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Iain- yup Italian GT-R

Tim/Oilman just packed up some oil samples to check. thanks

btw your redline gear oil is still working great in my gearbox :chuckle: does the job as well as pentosin, fuchs 500 and oem.


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## bazza_g (Sep 10, 2009)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> One of our customers reported just a little lower oil pressure than Nissan recommends, so decided to check out the oil


Out of interest, what should the engine oil pressure on the screen read when driving along and at idle?


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> btw your redline gear oil is still working great in my gearbox :chuckle: does the job as well as pentosin, fuchs 500 and oem.


I would say,every oil,whatever make it is works better then the stock fluid,never heard from that much gearbox failures with aftermarket oil then with the stock oil:chuckle:


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

just drop an rb26/30 in it  only joking mate...cant wait to see the new donk setup, what power will u aim for?

1 day i will own an r35, its my dream car!!!


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

i also wonder why the 3.8ltr uses a timing chain rather than a timing belt like its predecessors? there obviously is an advantage to this which i am not aware of...


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Marko R1 said:


> i also wonder why the 3.8ltr uses a timing chain rather than a timing belt like its predecessors? there obviously is an advantage to this which i am not aware of...


Because they are much more durable than a belt and don't tend to snap without warning. Nearly all engines were on chains years ago (or gears) but they were poor quality and stretched. This was also when they were pushrod so the drive length was short. They were also noisy and hard to get at so toothed belts were a natural progression especally with engines becoming overhead cam. Modern timing chains are of different construction to the old "bike chain" style simplex and duplex chains of old and are, therefore, the next progression. The idea is that they last the lifetime of the engine rather than being changed at 60K-70K miles.


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

makes sense - thanks for clarifying


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

Thanks for that


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

I carried out an inspection of Jurgen's JDM R35 engine on Saturday afternoon, the quick "Headline" points are first followed by theory as to the ultimate cause(s) of the engine's demise.

1) The engine failure was NOT caused by a sump sealant, oil starvation / low oil pressure or bearing problems.

2) The failure WAS caused by two exhaust valves that stuck open on cylinders 2 & 5 (the centre pair).

This engine had been tuned to the degree that Jurgen has already indicated and I found him very open and honest over how he operated and modified his vehicle. The engine had covered some 17k miles in total with oil and filter changes taking place every 2k miles using the oem specified Mobile 1 0W/40 oil, the stock 7000rpm rev limit had been left unaltered. 

The crank and associated timing gear were in excellent condition, the two failed con rods had done extremely well under EXTREME duress and were badly twisted and bent before one finally let go. Cylinder number two was the primary failure point with the one of its two exhaust valves stuck open, the piston obviously contacted this valve at the end of its exhaust stroke, it sheared the valve clean off after a small degree of bending first, this then broke up the piston crown and led to a catastrophic failure of the piston. The condition of the valve that I had access to was very good, it showed no obvious signs of duress. The valve on cylinder 5 was still within the cylinder bore, although the piston was on the verge of breaking up (skirt was gone and gudgeon pin broken free) it was still providing a full seal of the combustion chamber.

There was no discernable build up of carbon in cylinder 2's combustion chamber, it did not show any signs of duress apart from the obvious impact marks of the valve bouncing around in there during the piston break up.
The failure occurred at the end of a hard acceleration run, which leads me to believe that an localised overheating issue was partly to blame, I also believe that the Mobil 1 oil may be a contributing factor, more to follow on this. Unfortunately the cylinder heads were still in situ so that prevented me from checking the running clearance of the valves in their guides, but the fact that the two centre cylinders were involved can't be a coincidence as these typically would run the hottest.

This engine had covered some 15k miles in a tuned state and I believe the accumulation of very fine deposits (almost like a film) on the valve stems by oil which does not resist very high temps well and overheated valves allowed them to expand just enough to stay open or not close as quickly as they should. It should act as a warning to others who push their power output that uprated oil, high volume oil and water pumps plus high flow thermostats should be employed.

Nissan would do well to investigate this as they have access to all the correct tolerance figures etc for easy comparison, but my understanding so far is that they have just shown polite interest with no mention of inspecting the unit. 

To the best of my knowledge no one has done proper engine dyno testing of the V38 unit (Nissan aside), that is, removed one from the chassis and mounted it to a proper engine dynamometer and tested it to failure, with all the modified components that are becoming more commonly used today this must be done otherwise issues like this will continue to crop up and owners will find they are the ones being the guinea pigs, especially at elevated mileages. 

The bottom end of these engines are superb and look to be practically bullet proof, I would however like to see some improvements in the following areas over and above those already mentioned:

1) A larger "bird cage" and pick up baffle along with a slightly deeper sump with a dry sump setup being the ultimate solution to resist the G forces whilst providing decent lubrication.

2) The engine oil is pumped in and out of the oil cooler via fitting on the top of it with no means of draining the dirty oil during oil changes. This means that at least 0.75Lt of dirty contaminated oil is left in at every oil replacement, not good! It would be a simple matter to machine a drain bung in the bottom of the cooler to allow the oil to be drained fully.


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Good write up :wavey:

What makes you sure that the valves stuck open and got hit by the piston attatched at the conrod and have *not* been hit by the piston after the rod broke??

Is it clear that the rod did break after the first contact with the valves or are you just thinking this way?

Was Juergens car one of those with the exhaust valvetiming function...so maybe this was not working as it should or maybe too late/wide open.

What revs broke the engine?


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Good write up :wavey:
> 
> What makes you sure that the valves stuck open and got hit by the piston attatched at the conrod and have *not* been hit by the piston after the rod broke??
> 
> ...


my car used stock revs , it was on accelaration so not sure excatly when it went but it was before the rpm limit


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Great info. Just for reference, can we know what Arcam officially does for a living?

I'm glad I switched to Motul 300v 15w50 from 5k miles onwards. 
The only reason Nissan use such a thin oil as Mobil 0w40 is because of emissions/cold start stats etc.

For any tuned engine, i.e. putting out a lot more heat, there are much better oils available.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Thanks for the report. Some thoughts to add for discussion.

With frequent change intervals of the oil, this is going to to preserve the average film strength and viscosity over the life of the engine, but if the oil is continually breaking down due to localised high temperature it could form more deposits on the exhaust valves than an oil with better thermal stability?

Stock exhaust valves are IIRC sodium filled. Any comments on the factory spec clearances/tolerances? Perhaps there is more to come with further inspection?

Exhaust gas temperature measurement would be very useful, but people don't like to drill into their exhaust manifolds to mount a sensor through fear of them breaking off into a turbine, but there are robust stainless steel 3mm probes that can be put in a short distance. However, it is still a PITA to fit them, but might it have saved this engine? Pushing smaller turbos too hard especially at the top end (we did similar here to what lots of others do though) could result in high exhaust gas temperatures especially on 99 RON (rather than E85 or race fuel where the extra ignition timing you can run keeps the exhaust gas temperature lower for the same power). If you lean it off because a dyno wideband says you're rich or because of smoke, you could make this worse. If you have to retard the ignition too much to control detonation you could make this worse. If you have to run high wastegate duty cycle with uprated actuators you could make this worse. In other words running turbos on their limit might contribute. Everyone wants great power and spool in combination with the convenience of pump fuel, this leads to people wanting to push stock turbos too hard. Not to allow turbos to run too hard, but water injection might have a role, although many feel this is a band-aid and needs special care in making sure it doesn't run out/nozzles don't block. However, you could just run it as extra cooling without a tune that depends on it. It may even lose a little power whilst running, but I bet stressed engines would last much better.

Bigger radiators, lower fan trigger temps, lower temp thermostats and larger volumes of better oil (with proper emptying of the cooler) all sound great.

Variable exhaust cam timing on this engine in recent tune was set at zero as factory. Some earlier tunes had used the adjustable exhaust cam timing as has been used on many other engines but it seems to make little difference to spool/power/torque which is perhaps also why Nissan dropped it in the second year models onwards.


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

thistle said:


> Variable exhaust cam timing on this engine in recent tune was set at zero as factory. Some earlier tunes had used the adjustable exhaust cam timing as has been used on many other engines but it seems to make little difference to spool/power/torque which is perhaps also why Nissan dropped it in the second year models onwards.


Thanks for that info,im just trying to get as much info´s as possible why it broke.

Its not the first and was not the last which broke that way


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

EvolutionVI said:


> Thanks for that info,im just trying to get as much info´s as possible why it broke.
> 
> Its not the first and was not the last which broke that way


a lot of the usa and middle east massive engine failures look very similar to mine so maybe they suffered the same fate..

think 10 60 oil is one way to help but it might not be enough.

it gives me plenty of options for the way forward or which way i will go.


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

Worth remembering what the engine designer Wink said on this forum:



> it does break if run much above 600 bhp - just the way it was designed!! Failure mechanisms are numerous, but the main area would be the plasma coating/piston/rings. That said, the big end bearing is on the limit too.


Shame he doesn't post anymore.


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

Hi Alex,



EvolutionVI said:


> Good write up :wavey:
> 
> What makes you sure that the valves stuck open and got hit by the piston attatched at the conrod and have *not* been hit by the piston after the rod broke???
> 
> Is it clear that the rod did break after the first contact with the valves or are you just thinking this way?


Firstly - thanks! 

The way that the con rod was badly contorted/twisted prior to it ultimately coming out of the side of the block indicated the twisting happened before the final "snap". The piston had disintegrated and of course the gudgeon pin made an excellent weapon once on the loose so to speak!



EvolutionVI said:


> Was Juergens car one of those with the exhaust valvetiming function...so maybe this was not working as it should or maybe too late/wide open.


This engine did not have that feature, if the issue was caused by an exhaust cam timing issue it would have been extremely unlikely that its opposite number would also drop a valve, the Hyvo chains were all intact and all timing marks lined up correctly.



EvolutionVI said:


> What revs broke the engine?


Hard to say as Jurgen was unsure, but he did say it was a full throttle "blast" and would have been approching the red line, I suspect a hugh temp spike occured during that run.


----------



## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> Great info. Just for reference, can we know what Arcam officially does for a living?.


Hi David,

These days I am officially an IT Consultant, but first and foremost I am a time served technician having had my own garage (with 6 techs) for over 20 years and ran 2 rally teams. I specalised in a number of automotive fields with Engine tuning and building being one of them.



David.Yu said:


> I'm glad I switched to Motul 300v 15w50 from 5k miles onwards.


I know you has your "bus" serviced at MH recently what is their view with your choice of oils?



David.Yu said:


> The only reason Nissan use such a thin oil as Mobil 0w40 is because of emissions/cold start stats etc.


Agreed! Mobile 1 is a very old oil technologically speaking and I guess they give it to Nissan FOC on the back of getting it in at the HPCs for service work, this cr*p goes on too much. I can't see why this oil is any better for the plasma bores than a better grade higher performance offering from say Castrol, Motul or Millers etc.

Cheers

Eddie


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

thistle said:


> Thanks for the report. Some thoughts to add for discussion.
> 
> With frequent change intervals of the oil, this is going to to preserve the average film strength and viscosity over the life of the engine, but if the oil is continually breaking down due to localised high temperature it could form more deposits on the exhaust valves than an oil with better thermal stability?.


Absolutely, this seems to be a time and temp related problem, brought to a head earlier by higher boost pressures, increased A/F ratios, ign timing changes etc.



thistle said:


> Stock exhaust valves are IIRC sodium filled. Any comments on the factory spec clearances/tolerances? Perhaps there is more to come with further inspection?.


Yes, it was a pity the heads were still in place as I wanted to remove the remaining valves for inspection and to measure the stem diameters with a micrometer to compare against the collet end of the valves and ones from adjacent cylinders.



thistle said:


> Exhaust gas temperature measurement would be very useful.


No arguments there, the increased back pressure along with higher boost pressures will enviably leads to increased exhaust port temps of longer duration, making the oil choice and cooling much more important.


----------



## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

I do wonder if this failure could have possibly been due to intake of foreign object or objects. What does the turbo look like?


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

johnhanton57 said:


> I do wonder if this failure could have possibly been due to intake of foreign object or objects. What does the turbo look like?


turbos are fine 100% ok infact still look like new


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Jm-Imports said:


> turbos are fine 100% ok infact still look like new


Oh well bang goes that theory. Sorry pardon the pun.......

I need to ensure i dont get sticking valves but at present still running just below 600 hp but want to go for more..what to do?.....what to do?

Hope to see your beast back on the road again soon Jurgen and with even more Horses:thumbsup:


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Arcam said:


> Hi Alex,
> The way that the con rod was badly contorted/twisted prior to it ultimately coming out of the side of the block indicated the twisting happened before the final "snap". The piston had disintegrated and of course the gudgeon pin made an excellent weapon once on the loose so to speak!


Thank you Arcam, great write up on confirming this was a top end down jobbie. 


However, I'm still left wondering whether the chain of events started with the valves or the pistons themselves, as the quoted above could still happen if the piston were to fail first. The separation you mention of the skirt and gudgeon pin on cylinder 5 is certainly consistent with what I have experienced with pistons that have fractured through the wrist pin borderline. Having the heads off would have gone some way to clearing this up. Did the bores show any sign of degradation ??

Again, thanks for taking the time to not only help Jurgen, but to help GTR owners in general. The best anyone can do on a forum without actually seeing it 1st hand is guess, so at least we now have a clearer idea of what went on.


----------



## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

im running 10W60 from millers in all my cars....no problems,only enginefaailure i had was on Mobil1....ok,it would maybe happend with any other oil too,as i got one of them faulty EDM engines from nissan,thanks for that [email protected] :chairshot


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Arcam said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No problem mate,

still im unsure about valve failure as a reason,maybe a piston failure as written above,somewhere near the pistonpin,if the piston breaks it could show the same failure.....pistons get much more abuse then the valves,i mean if tuned ot stock,the force on the valves will not really get bigger,ok,it gets a bit hotter but in the end they open and close,thats about it,the piston/pin/conrod needs to work a lot harder then stock....


----------



## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

MiGTR said:


> However, I'm still left wondering whether the chain of events started with the valves or the pistons themselves, as the quoted above could still happen if the piston were to fail first. The separation you mention of the skirt and gudgeon pin on cylinder 5 is certainly consistent with what I have experienced with pistons that have fractured through the wrist pin borderline. Having the heads off would have gone some way to clearing this up. Did the bores show any sign of degradation ??


Without the heads being removed it would be hard to state with any certainty whether to blame the valve or piston in the first instance, however please bear in mind when I came to the conclusion it was down to the valve was based on cylinder 5 which has the missing piston skirt but is intact from the waist up (so to speak) and why (if the piston failed first) would it not have struck both exhaust valves in both effected cylinders?

The bore on cylinder 2 was very badly scored by the little end, the rest of the area not touched by the flailing con rod were in excellent condition, the plasma coating appeared to be intact (ie no "peeling" was evident). I can see an argument for replacing the stock pistons in high powered configurations, but it is worth to note that NO increase in compression ratio should be sought, rather a forged "stock" design would be preferable, I think I would also be happy to retain the standard con rods. Having said that if the pistons were to be replaced then the work to replace the con rods is already done (only the cost of the rods to add), you then also start getting into the realms of sleeving the block to "by pass" the plasma coating for without that I doubt the stock cylinder walls would last any length of time.


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

EvolutionVI said:


> pistons get much more abuse then the valves,i mean if tuned ot stock,the force on the valves will not really get bigger,ok,it gets a bit hotter but in the end they open and close,thats about it,the piston/pin/conrod needs to work a lot harder then stock....


By and large I agree with that statement Alex, however as the piston that had broken up had practically nothing to offer without metal analysis being done, there was very little of it left to look at. If the heads had been off that would have been a different story and would have contributed a great deal to the analysis. I have seen piston crowns partially melt before now with high combustion temps, there is a degree of educated guesswork involved here and I have tried to give the "facts", the piston skirt on cylinder 5 had broken up leaving everything north of the gudgeon pin line intact (pending head removal), now was this caused by a piston failure or the debris from the breakup of cylinder 2's piston & rod assembly? Why would the same valve on the cylinder 5 snap off as well, BUT with 1 exhaust valve per side left intact if the piston broke up first?


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

A very solid theory based on the facts you have seen for yourself so far Arcam, and quite likely to be the route cause. But I have to ask why the neighbouring valve did not seize in the open position also? Distribution of force is altered once communication between a rod and piston has been lost, specialy with a missing skirt. It's quite easy for more pressure to be applied to one valve over the other, not to mention debris being caught behind the valve holding it open. It would be nice to remove the valves and check them for trueness, this in itself would further enforce your findings.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Yes, we need Arcam to revisit this engine once the head is off. Off with her head!


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

MiGTR said:


> But I have to ask why the neighbouring valve did not seize in the open position also? Distribution of force is altered once communication between a rod and piston has been lost, specialy with a missing skirt.


Agreed, the disconnection of the rod from the piston makes it a bit more of a wild card but the rings would have kept it tracking pretty true, the difference in height required to snap one valve and leave the other intact I find hard to see at this stage of the inspection.

I would dearly have loved to inspect the good valves first hand and take measurements, (indeed I did push Jurgen for this to happen before my arrival, but other things got in the way) there was a fair degree of bend in the broken valve before it snapped cleanly off.

It may not have seized completely, it may have just been lazy in closing (slowed by build up on the stem) and was still not fully closed when the piston reached TDC, heads off next to further the inspection, else all this is educated  guess work!


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> Yes, we need Arcam to revisit this engine once the head is off. Off with her head!


That may be possible David but it is a 6 hour round trip for me! Although the A1 in places is simply joyous


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Arcam said:


> Heads off next to further the inspection, else all this is educated  guess work!


I think so, else we'll be bringing in planetary misalignment as a contributing factor. The heads will hold a wealth of secrets yet to be uncovered.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

MiGTR said:


> I think so, else we'll be bringing in planetary misalignment as a contributing factor. The heads will hold a wealth of secrets yet to be uncovered.


my heads are like gold dust me and arcam are suprised nissan dont want them for r and d..

anyway reason am not taking heads off - when i build the new motor i want to have something to go off rather than scratch my brain (bear in mind it could be 5-10 months before we refit new heads to new block..

so i want to leave it on as long as possible so its fresh on the memory banks


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Oh I see, keeping us all in suspense for a year, the ultimate cliffhanger.:chuckle:

Nissan won't give two hoots bud. Nissan would've spent a small fortune testing that engine to destruction in the design phase. I used to deal with a local company that ran manufacturers engines for 24 hours a day under all scenarios until they failed, so I'm sure Nissan will have quite a large data collection already. Plus they really wouldn't want to show too much interest in something that has been modified, commercially that could be suicide.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

BTW, if carbon deposits on the valves are a suspected culprit, can we know which type of fuel you used most of the time Jurgen?


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> BTW, if carbon deposits on the valves are a suspected culprit, can we know which type of fuel you used most of the time Jurgen?


David,

There was no appreciable carbon build up on the backs of the valves, the "film" is pure guess work at the moment and was based on Mobile one not handling high temps very well, it is possible the valve stem is coated in a fine layer of burnt oil gunk/tarnish.


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## NINEIR0N (Oct 5, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> BTW, if carbon deposits on the valves are a suspected culprit, can we know which type of fuel you used most of the time Jurgen?


Struth David......
For your information...Jurgen mainly wore jeans whilst driving. 
His choice of music whilst driving was Light Rock. 
He had used a medium to strong hold hair gel whilst driving. 
The most common underwear he wore whilst driving was a Tanga Brief.
He DID have some shopping in the car but only on a Saturday afternoon.
He wound his windows down only 34% of his driving time in the car. 
Hope this helps....
P.s He used petrol.

My point.......You cant go around worried you car is gonna go pop. They are not all the same. 

P.p.s I do love a Tanga Brief!:chuckle:


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

NINEIR0N said:


> Struth David......
> For your information...Jurgen mainly wore jeans whilst driving.
> His choice of music whilst driving was Light Rock.
> He had used a medium to strong hold hair gel whilst driving.
> ...


ROFL! :chuckle:


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Arcam said:


> David,
> 
> There was no appreciable carbon build up on the backs of the valves, the "film" is pure guess work at the moment and was based on Mobile one not handling high temps very well, it is possible the valve stem is coated in a fine layer of burnt oil gunk/tarnish.


So the gunk was definitely from the oil rather than fuel?
That's all I wanted to know.

NINEIRON, you don't know me very well, do you?
I've been blowing up GT-R engines since before most people even knew what they were! :chuckle:


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## NINEIR0N (Oct 5, 2009)

NINEIRON, you don't know me very well, do you?
I've been blowing up GT-R engines since before most people even knew what they were! :chuckle:[/QUOTE]

Well give over fretting.......With all your Blowing experience you should know better than most, that this power/failure situation will be explained very soon.(Prays it don't happen to me!!)
I think this whole situation has put the Willy's up quite a few tuned Gtr owners! Myself included...


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

rofl AT NINEIRON LOL , i used vpower fuel always or tesco 99 ron..

i think a 10 60 oil will help and maybe we dont know in terms of long term realibility at big power..

we just have to see what works and what doesnt..

i know its a worry for everybody i mean christ i thought my lc1 gbox would be first on the workbench not my bloody engine lol..

we just have to relax and just carry on i guess..

nineiron how much did your turbos cost you, am looking for some new ones


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

So mainly V-Power with the odd tank of Tesco 99? Same as all of us who have 99RON maps I guess.

I think mine is mainly run on Tesco 99 with the odd tank of V-Power because of what is near me.

Of course I often find myself stranded without either and have to download a 97RON map!


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

I'm starting to worry....



That's the last time I drive my GTR in Tanga Briefs......


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## countvonc (Feb 11, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> So mainly V-Power with the odd tank of Tesco 99? Same as all of us who have 99RON maps I guess.
> 
> I think mine is mainly run on Tesco 99 with the odd tank of V-Power because of what is near me.
> 
> Of course I often find myself stranded without either and have to download a 97RON map!


Can you not just drive it without giving it the beans?

Surely at low/no boost 'normal' fuel will be fine?

I wish to be educated on the matter..


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

countvonc said:


> Can you not just drive it without giving it the beans?
> 
> Surely at low/no boost 'normal' fuel will be fine?
> 
> I wish to be educated on the matter..


It's not just boost, it's ignition timing that is octane dependant. Certainly on an NA car, you can hear "pinking" most clearly at low/mid revs and medium throttle if something's wrong.


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## GTRSTAR (Nov 26, 2009)

NINEIR0N said:


> Struth David......
> For your information...Jurgen mainly wore jeans whilst driving.
> His choice of music whilst driving was Light Rock.
> He had used a medium to strong hold hair gel whilst driving.
> ...


LoL, absolutely, now Im no mechanical engineer (no TV cook either) but surely if you get the oil and cooling right an engine like this should be reliable up to a given point, lets say 722BHP for the sake of argument :smokin:, then if you want more, strengthen the usual suspects internally and shes good to go! simples 

After 20 years and years of tuning Skylines, Supras and Evos have we not learnt anything transferable? I cant beleive the GTR's been out for nearly 3 years and we're still nowhere near 1000BHP under the hood, whats agoing on?! :runaway: what are we waiting for, the first guy to get up and ask a girl to dance :GrowUp: I dont want to be driving a 10 year old model with 1000BHP in 2020, I want to be driving a car that people have never seen before at light speed just like Marty McFly :flame:

Come on Kev, you must have somthing up your sleeve, make her fly


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## Elliott_GTR (Dec 13, 2009)

NINEIR0N said:


> Well give over fretting.......With all your *Blowing* experience you should know better than most, that this power/failure situation will be explained very soon.(Prays it don't happen to me!!)
> I think this whole situation has put the *Willy's* up quite a few tuned Gtr owners! Myself included...


:chuckle:

So, have you got your grey wheels painted black yet?! 

It's a good point though... it would be nice to know you can get more than 17k miles out of a tweaked car!


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## NINEIR0N (Oct 5, 2009)

GTRSTAR said:


> LoL, absolutely, now Im no mechanical engineer (no TV cook either) but surely if you get the oil and cooling right an engine like this should be reliable up to a given point, lets say 722BHP for the sake of argument :smokin:, then if you want more, strengthen the usual suspects internally and shes good to go! simples
> 
> After 20 years and years of tuning Skylines, Supras and Evos have we not learnt anything transferable? I cant beleive the GTR's been out for nearly 3 years and we're still nowhere near 1000BHP under the hood, whats agoing on?! :runaway: what are we waiting for, the first guy to get up and ask a girl to dance :GrowUp: I dont want to be driving a 10 year old model with 1000BHP in 2020, I want to be driving a car that people have never seen before at light speed just like Marty McFly :flame:
> 
> Come on Kev, you must have somthing up your sleeve, make her fly


Not sure what the obsession is with 1000bhp,unless you fancy getting on the Gt1 tour!
But I think we are all collectively agree that this car don't like excessive torque on stock bits and bobs. 
However if you tune within the margin's of sensible,right boost,fuel,oil,map,intakes,intercooler...the list goes on. then you can isolate the areas for concern and reduce the need for concern.
Go daft and you increase the chances of failure!
Common sense?
So I have taken all the tuned parts off my car and replaced the block with a 1975 Ford Capri Ghia lump!


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

But isnt that the point?

This engine hasnt been around long enough at those power and torque levels for tuners to have a detailed knowledge of its weak points, surely?

Nobody knows how the plasma liners will hold up, for instance. Nobody knows what the lifespan of any critical component will be until we have more evidence collected over some years.

So at the moment, my feeling is if you push torque and power over a reaasonable amount (and nobody knows what reasonable is too) dont be surprised if things go bang sometime in the future.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

charles charlie said:


> But isnt that the point?
> 
> This engine hasnt been around long enough at those power and torque levels for tuners to have a detailed knowledge of its weak points, surely?
> 
> ...


good post, this is why am going with jun, it does not guarantee anything but i know it will be stronger..

and i will feel safer doing 750 800 on this block than stock one..

dont want the aggro again:runaway:


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## NINEIR0N (Oct 5, 2009)

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles charlie 
But isnt that the point?

This engine hasnt been around long enough at those power and torque levels for tuners to have a detailed knowledge of its weak points, surely?

Nobody knows how the plasma liners will hold up, for instance. Nobody knows what the lifespan of any critical component will be until we have more evidence collected over some years.

So at the moment, my feeling is if you push torque and power over a reaasonable amount (and nobody knows what reasonable is too) dont be surprised if things go bang sometime in the future.
good post, this is why am going with jun, it does not guarantee anything but i know it will be stronger..

and i will feel safer doing 750 800 on this block than stock one..

dont want the aggro again


Agreed.....:chuckle:
P.s Its Tanga Time!!!!!!


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## GTRSTAR (Nov 26, 2009)

NINEIR0N said:


> So I have taken all the tuned parts off my car and replaced the block with a 1975 Ford Capri Ghia lump!


Thats it! maybe the answer is stareing us all in the face  is this the reason why they went for a V8 in the GT1 car instead of a tuned up 6?! right Kev, what old big block fords have you got out the back? :runaway:

But seriously, call me an old cinic  but nissan probably made sumo put a V8 in the GT1 just to protect the squeaky clean GTR "brand" image, put simply, they dont want us making our cars individual, hence the lack of options on a new GTR, Its a corporate mentality thought up by communists for one purpose, to control our buying habits opcorn:

Tuning is a cult, its for people that refuse to accept the norm and ultimately have a closer relationship with their cars as a result, they can take away our leicences, but they'll never take our FREEDOM! :flame:


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

Gt1 car makes do with 600 horses or so, and is off the shelf Nismo, built to FIA rules, hence RWD etc.

Weight loss is of course the other way of approaching this desire to make GTR better.

Is this the UK's Lightest GTR


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## [email protected] (Sep 22, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> There are dozens, if not hundreds of GT-Rs in the US that are running way, way over 120hp more than standard.
> 
> One has just run a 9.89s 1/4 mile at 147mph!
> It has got uprated pistons but has a COMPLETELY STOCK BOTTOM END.
> ...


old post but so you are clear our car has a completely stock bottom end. Stock pistons as well. That 9.89 run was on a BONE STOCK LONGBLOCK

Eric


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

[email protected] said:


> old post but so you are clear our car has a completely stock bottom end. Stock pistons as well. That 9.89 run was on a BONE STOCK LONGBLOCK
> 
> Eric


Wow! Thanks for the info about the pistons, that's amazing. How many miles has that engine covered whilst tuned? (obviously not many at that amazing power level).

What internal pieces would you swap for an 800hp (flywheel) motor?


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## [email protected] (Sep 22, 2009)

it ran at the 650whp mark for about 4000 miles. It has been at the 750whp mark now for about 700-800 miles.

We don't advise running much more than 700whp on the stock engine and that is dependent on the turbo and boost you are running. For instance I don't recommend running the stock turbos on the stock motor at 600whp as you might as well replace the turbos with a flame thrower. But 650whp on our upgraded turbos is very safe with the stock tune. It's all relative to the parts and tuning you put behind it.

If you wanted to run up to 900WHP Some upgraded rods and pistons should do the trick. If you want more than that like our 1000whp build we are doing then I would do sleeves or liners as well. We have three VR38's torn down at our shop right now. One of which was just buttoned up and is getting our entry level full V-band turbo kit with an estimated final WHP of 850. Should be a fun car and one QUICK ride!!!!

There have a been a lot of sketchy tuners our there "tooning" the R35 and the motor failures are starting to show that. Just get your car tuned by some that knows what they are doing and do so with the right parts and you can put a decent amount of power behind the stock VR38.

Eric


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> it ran at the 650whp mark for about 4000 miles. It has been at the 750whp mark now for about 700-800 miles.
> 
> We don't advise running much more than 700whp on the stock engine and that is dependent on the turbo and boost you are running. For instance I don't recommend running the stock turbos on the stock motor at 600whp as you might as well replace the turbos with a flame thrower. But 650whp on our upgraded turbos is very safe with the stock tune. It's all relative to the parts and tuning you put behind it.
> 
> ...


a jun stroker kit should do me nicely.. i just need to find a nice set of turbos that will do the biz..

btw good post and info..


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## [email protected] (Sep 22, 2009)

Well we can take care of you in the turbo department. We are about to release (48 hours or so) our latest bolt on turbo using a billet compressor wheel. HP output should be close to 700whp/650ftlbs on 93 octane (USA) and 800whp/750ftlbs on 110 octane (USA). The best part is like our V1 turbos they will offer no noticable spool loss over the stock turbos. Time to have your cake and eat it too!

As far as engine Jun makes nice stuff but over the years we have always done things to our own exacting standards. We employ companies like JE Pistons, Manley etc to build us components using our specifications and dimensions. This has worked wonders in our Engine programs. For instance we just made 780whp on our 2.2 liter AMS built Mitsubishi EVO X on the stock ECU and all AMS components. We employee three full time engineers and we make them boys WORK! If you ever need anything just let me know and I would be happy to help. We have become quite good with the VR38 program.

Eric


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

am just about to send some money to JUN , but out of curiosity send me a PM with costs for a fully built engine with liners similar to JUNs spec..

not including heads just the short block.. and you to supply block aswell..

and also send me TURBO prices as am on the hunt for some of them too,.

thanks


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> bloody ell Jurgen you change your mind every day on spec


I think Ben summed it up nicely


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

MiGTR said:


> I think Ben summed it up nicely


yep its a hard choice i have now qoutes from goturnstop,forged performance , jun, jotech and now AMS..

all dealers are offering various different builds - it was difficult to decide.

a feel like am messing the guys around but its a lot of money to spend and i need to make sure i spend it wisely..


jun offered me a cracking deal - and i like the idea of having the first JUN built r35 in UK their history and pedigree is second to none,..

pricey yes but you cant get cavier at mcdonalds


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Choose the one with the most local support mate, otherwise you have the potential for it to turn into a VERY expensive experiment. 

No you can't get caviar and Mcdees, but then if you could it would most likely taste like wood.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

MiGTR said:


> Choose the one with the most local support mate, otherwise you have the potential for it to turn into a VERY expensive experiment.
> 
> No you can't get caviar and Mcdees, but then if you could it would most likely taste like wood.


everything is overseas mate


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Which is why Jun get their pistons made here.


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## gtr-loz (Feb 10, 2006)

looking at the ams threads they seem like a very proffesional bunch of people with good proven results


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

gtr-loz said:


> looking at the ams threads they seem like a very proffesional bunch of people with good proven results


they do mate and this is making it more difficult now and the yen is going down arrrghhh


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Come on Jurgen, pick one..tick tock tick tock. Not helping am I :chuckle:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

MiGTR said:


> Come on Jurgen, pick one..tick tock tick tock. Not helping am I :chuckle:


:runaway: your doing this to me spinning in circles


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## MiGTR (Jul 31, 2007)

Sorry mate. :chuckle:


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

It's taken me a little while to get a report back on engine oil from a GTR, but I finally have the results. Here is what the oil chemist reported back

This sample is generally in good condition, but, as is usually the case with 10W/60 grades, the used oil shows a large viscosity loss. (Probably no bad thing; modern engines do not need high viscosity oils.) Wear metals show a high silicon content, which could point to abrasive dust ingestion. (Is an effective air cleaner fitted?) High copper could be the result of bearing damage by abrasion.

To my knowledge the silicon is due to the sealant used by Nissan rather than a poor air filter. If the copper content is due to bearing wear, that is very likely to be the fault of the oil. 

Due to the problems that have been had with GTR oils and also the prices Nissan charge, we've come up with an offer for you.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/138682-r35-oil-change-offer.html#post1309063

Cheers

Tim


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Thanks for the update.
So in conclusion, it does seem that the likely cause of failure was top end rather than bottom end, i.e. piston or rod failure?

Interesting statement that "modern engines do not need high viscosity oils". What do you define as "high viscosity" and bearing in mind your new offer, do you stand by your orignal recommendation of, say, Motul 300v 15w50, which is what I use?

Thanks in advance.



oilman said:


> It's taken me a little while to get a report back on engine oil from a GTR, but I finally have the results. Here is what the oil chemist reported back
> 
> This sample is generally in good condition, but, as is usually the case with 10W/60 grades, the used oil shows a large viscosity loss. (Probably no bad thing; modern engines do not need high viscosity oils.) Wear metals show a high silicon content, which could point to abrasive dust ingestion. (Is an effective air cleaner fitted?) High copper could be the result of bearing damage by abrasion.
> 
> ...


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

Motul 15w-50 is thinner than the Edge or Edge Sport 10w-60 and that is the important part of this. So many people think that the thicker an oil is, the better it is, or if their car is modified at all or a performance car, they need a 10w-60. Completely wrong. You need the right grade of oil for the car. It does seem that Nissan have done a deal with Mobil, so that limits the choice of oils a bit, leaving only the 0w-40 or 15w-50 as their top quality oils. I would have thought the 15w-50 would be a better choice than 0w-40, but I guess they went with the 0w-40 for fuel economy reasons, possibly availability around the world too. 

The Motul 15w-50 is fine, it's very similar to the Pro S 10w-50, just a bit thicker when cold.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Thanks.

And do you think that the oil report doesn't seem to suggest a bearing or lube failure?


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

i have bought a load of millers oil from opie for my R35 GTR


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

David.Yu said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And do you think that the oil report doesn't seem to suggest a bearing or lube failure?


How do you mean? The test was not for failure just a used oil sample from an R35 to see whats goinng on.

To me it reads that you guys just dont need SAE60, its too thick and quite possibly not lubricating the bearings as required, hense the high copper content (probably from the bearings) in the used oil sample. A shear stable SAE40 or SAE50 would be a better bet. Unless oil temps are excessive then there is little need to go above standard viscosity of SAE40. 

If there is continued use of 10w-60 (SAE60) then it would be wise to expect potential failures in the future.

Who is recommending 10w-60 for these things anyway?

Anyone want to send me a sample of a decent 0w-40 or 5w-40 being used in an R35 for some comparison?

Cheers

Guy


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

i bought the millers oil for my r35 gtr i was told by one of your team that is ok.

i have not used it as my car wont be ready till later on the year..

i want to run 850bhp what oil should i be using then or do you mean the mobil oil is better to use on stock engines 


thanks


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

What Millers did you get?

Cheers

Guy


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

oilman said:


> What Millers did you get?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Guy


my engine will be running more heat and power and i want the best oil

is this any good then 

Millers Oils CFS 10w-60 Competition Full Synthetic Engine Oil


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

oilman said:


> How do you mean? The test was not for failure just a used oil sample from an R35 to see whats goinng on.
> 
> To me it reads that you guys just dont need SAE60, its too thick and quite possibly not lubricating the bearings as required, hense the high copper content (probably from the bearings) in the used oil sample. A shear stable SAE40 or SAE50 would be a better bet. Unless oil temps are excessive then there is little need to go above standard viscosity of SAE40.
> 
> ...


Ah, you probably should have posted this on a new thread then, this one is about the engine that failed!

Interesting that you believe 60 oil will actually cause failures.
I presume you know that GT-Rs do actually generate pretty high oil temps, i.e. 120c is not uncommon on track?


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

120C is not a problem for a good modern 5w-40. All of the top ester based ones are fine at 120C, in fact they are okay up to an average of about 130C, so a good quality 5w-40 would be a very good choice. If you start getting over 130C, then it's time for a 10w-50, but that is fine up to about 150C, so your engine needs to be producing a lot of heat to make a 10w-60 necessary.

Nissan are going to know that the oil can get that hot and they specify a 0w-40 (a bit silly as the Mobil 1 is a thin 40, almost a SAE30). I think Nissans oil specification is a little on the thin side (especially if the car is modified), but a 10w-60 is too thick. There seems to be a lot of people (not just GTR owners) that think a 10w-60 is necessary in anything with a turbo, but that is just wrong. Cars need the right grade of oil, not just a thick one if it's a performance car. Having a thick oil slows its flow rate, so the oil doesn't take heat away as quickly as it should, meaning the engine gets hotter than it needs to.


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## oilman (Jul 16, 2004)

Jm-Imports said:


> my engine will be running more heat and power and i want the best oil
> 
> is this any good then
> 
> Millers Oils CFS 10w-60 Competition Full Synthetic Engine Oil


Not really, you'd be better off with a 10w-50 or 5w-50, but even then check the oil temps.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Yeah 120c is common, 130 less so as the trans temps will be off the scale by then.

Thanks for the info oilman. Still think you should start a new thread as none of this seems to be directly relevant to Jurgen's blow up though.


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> ... Still think you should start a new thread as none of this seems to be directly relevant to Jurgen's blow up though.


I have done that David under the following link:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/138745-engine-oil-selection.html#post1309758


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## numbnuts (May 21, 2012)

Bad Luck


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## jambo 32gtr (Apr 1, 2009)

numbnuts said:


> Bad Luck


WTF pointless thread revival


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