# Full UK video test, R35 GT-R vs. 911



## trondhla (Oct 1, 2003)

Nissan GT-R battles 911 nemesis on video


:clap:


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

manga feel?


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## Andy_P (Feb 4, 2007)

Not much of a comparison..........no flying lap or anything.
Lame!


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

Just gotta wait for tomorrow........... patience is a virtue


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

canman said:


> Just gotta wait for tomorrow........... patience is a virtue


yup as Canman said, part 2 video is tomorrow, which will show the GT-R on track, times etc... car mag is releasing bits each day building up to their latest issue monday 27th 15 page feature

now the German test has been done, would be interested in doing a vs 34,33,32 shoot out for fun


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## AMG_POWER (Nov 20, 2007)

where's part two?


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## Thrust (Jun 8, 2004)

AMG_POWER said:


> where's part two?


Wait 'n see! :smokin: (That's what I'm doing.... :bawling: )


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## BJohnson (Mar 24, 2003)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> yup as Canman said, part 2 video is tomorrow, which will show the GT-R on track, times etc... car mag is releasing bits each day building up to their latest issue monday 27th 15 page feature
> 
> now the German test has been done, would be interested in doing a vs 34,33,32 shoot out for fun


Isn't Monday the 25th?


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## Chuck_H (Jul 28, 2006)

Part 2 Nissan GT-R v Porsche 911 Turbo video part 2


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> now the German test has been done, would be interested in doing a vs 34,33,32 shoot out for fun


Which german magazine did the test??? Sport auto by chance?


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

The Porsche discussion boards are going to have a field day with this!


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Not being well up on the Porsche prices, what is the price of the car tested and just out of interest how much is the GT3 that the whingers are saying should have been used?


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

I believe the 911 turbo is £106,995 new

The GT-R also beat the GT3 round Bedford :flame: so ends the argument :chuckle: 



Loads missing from those videos including review of day, times, top speeds etc.. and which car they'd choose if given one option, but like you'd need to guess which one they went for...


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## jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

congratulations on stuffing the 911


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## SteveC (Jul 2, 2001)

nice one.
good display of courage letting them out in such a fresh car too. top marks.

/Steve


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)




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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

The Carrera GT makes 1:19.7 (Evo), so the GTR is actually closer to a Carrera GT than a 997TT.

Great stuff.... but apparently the driver drove wrong in the 997TT:



heavychevy on 6speedonline said:


> I was under the assumption that the lap time for the TT was not actually shown, that the drifting around the turns was part of him clowning around before trying to set the lap.
> 
> You cant be serious to comparea lap of drifting around the track to a lap of trying to drive proper lines.
> 
> This is as bad as Best Motoring. Not that that guy is a great driver, but that is garbage.


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

I get the feeling the 997TT tends to get tail happy when pushed to the limit and he was fighting to keep it under control. Guess you could keep racing lines on the TT, but you probably won't be pushing the car as hard as the Car driver did.


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## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

Can someone verify what the "at the end of the day it's just a Datsun" forums are saying about this?


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

doggiehowser said:


> I get the feeling the 997TT tends to get tail happy when pushed to the limit and he was fighting to keep it under control. Guess you could keep racing lines on the TT, but you probably won't be pushing the car as hard as the Car driver did.


Exactly. In the back of Evo it has a comprehensive list of track times for Bedford. 1:23.1 is a very good time and is roughly consistent with the time achieved by Evo (1:23.55).


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> The Carrera GT makes 1:19.7 (Evo), so the GTR is actually closer to a Carrera GT than a 997TT.
> 
> Great stuff.... but apparently the driver drove wrong in the 997TT:


Your right, that's why formula drift cars always set lap records at the tracks they attend. :lamer: .

Anyone who has been on a track before can see there is easily multiple seconds worth of him sliding around EVERY turn.

Glad to see you still dont know what you're talking about.


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Porsche needs to work a bit more the next weeks,a "cheap" Nissan has thrown them of the Top:thumbsup:


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## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

Porsche? Work?!!! They aint done any work for 20 years! 

Butuz


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Heavychevy,

I'm a Porsche fan, but maybe the new GTR is just plain faster round most tracks than the 997TT, however a few tracks may suit the Porsche better and allow it to be quicker.

At the end of the day, Nissan have developed the GTR to be quicker than the 997TT and spent a lot of time doing this because Porsches are held in such high regard.

I'm sure Porsche prob have a GTR on order so they can redress the balance.

Cheers,


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

Maybe they'll also figure out a way to make their own dual clutch gearbox work. I think they have been at it since the 997 was under development!


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## jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

Benji Linney GTC said:


>


Is that an R8?


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## Rostampoor (Nov 20, 2006)

Yes.^


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## jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

ooh!


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## Lee_Pendlebury (Nov 18, 2001)

markM3 said:


> Heavychevy,
> 
> I'm a Porsche fan, but maybe the new GTR is just plain faster round most tracks than the 997TT, however a few tracks may suit the Porsche better and allow it to be quicker.


He doesnt appear to be saying its not faster. I agree with what he said. Theres no way that the lap they showed in part one of the video could have been the fastest lap. Was probably just done to look impressive on the camera, much like most the top gear laps also I suspect - notice how you never see the full lap without cuts. So they can make it look impressive rather than showing a fast smooth boring lap.


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## MattOz (Dec 3, 2001)

R33_GTS-t said:


> The Carrera GT makes 1:19.7 (Evo), so the GTR is actually closer to a Carrera GT than a 997TT


So what time did the GTR attain at Bedford then? 

I don't believe that Ben has told us. The times above are for Rockingham, so until Ben furnishes us with the Bedford figure, we cannot compare to Carrera GT, Turbo or GT3 etc. 

I suspect that it will be properly quick though! :thumbsup: 

Matt


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

markM3 said:


> Heavychevy,
> 
> I'm a Porsche fan, but maybe the new GTR is just plain faster round most tracks than the 997TT, however a few tracks may suit the Porsche better and allow it to be quicker.
> 
> ...



I dont have a problem if in fact the GT-R is faster than the TT. But I would like to see some REAL testing at least. All media hype and propaganda aside, as that has yet to be seen. I can point out long lists of b.s. from ALL of the testing we have seen thus far.

The guy drifted A WHOLE TURN for goodness sake!!!!! And they counted that as a timed lap?!?!?!?!

I just cant fathom how people cant understand this, or at least the GT-R fanboys. There is not a car on this planet that can drift around a course faster than it can take a line and try to maintain grip. IMPOSSIBLE!

Both Best Motoring videos were a joke, if you think otherwise it's a waist of time.

The 997 TT hasnt impressed me at all so far, in fact I dont really care for it except for a GT highway car, but all the gimmicks will have to stop at some point. If the car is legitimately faster then there isnt the need for all the extra garbage, wouldnt you say?

I really dont think I'm being unresaonable here, if you take a look at ALL of the factors, down to the tires, and Nissan's own testing in both vehicles, all of this recent stuff is propaganda. 

You can't convince me that it's impossible to drive and AWD 997TT around a race course without drifting it, yet that's all we see when the GT-R is present. I'd bet money I could go and learn Silverstone in one day and beat the time that guy ran drifting around the circuit, and I'm a relative noob.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

MattOz said:


> So what time did the GTR attain at Bedford then?
> 
> I don't believe that Ben has told us. The times above are for Rockingham, so until Ben furnishes us with the Bedford figure, we cannot compare to Carrera GT, Turbo or GT3 etc.
> 
> ...


1:22.1. I had a brain fart about the GT, I was confusing 1:19.7 with 1:21.7. The GT is a lot faster but there's some £300-400k merchanise putting in the same times as the GTR.

The video to the GTR lap was posted by Chuck_H earlier in this thread.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Your right, that's why formula drift cars always set lap records at the tracks they attend. :lamer:


FFS it's not as if he hard the rear end right out.



heavychevy said:


> Anyone who has been on a track before can see there is easily multiple seconds worth of him sliding around EVERY turn.


Multiple seconds? WTF? You talk complete sh*t. Are you saying that the 997TT is faster than the Enzo and Carrera GT now? Please, if you think you can drive the 997TT around it faster, go video yourself doing it or STFU.



heavychevy said:


> Glad to see you still dont know what you're talking about.


Glad to see your butt still hurts.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Will someone post that Bedford time, I hear it will really ruffle some feathers... 

Humble pie anyone?


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

GT3's still aren't close to GTR money though, we'll they're not here so I assume it'll be the same there, so you're still not comparing with a competitor in the GT3 anyhow.

I suppose Nissan will take heart from the fact that to a certain degree they've achieved what they set out to do which is to have people even Porsche owners comparing the GTR with a Porsche.......

Well done Benji for getting involved and letting your new machine be one of the first to show the world what it can do............. 

Cat that got the cream
Kid with a new toy

I'm sure there's some other sayings that describe that look on your face when you heard that time 

Well done mate.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Howsie said:


> Will someone post that Bedford time, I hear it will really ruffle some feathers...
> 
> Humble pie anyone?


Yeah I got the circuit wrong, it's Rockingham. Easy mistake, the times are scarily similar. At least I admit when I'm talking shit, unlike you Howsie. You just go on and on, see the congestion charge thread.

I've got a lot on my mind and heavychevy's unwillingness to accept that the Earth is round and that the GTR is faster than the 997TT, is least of them.

The GTR will make the same time or better around Bedford when Evo test it. You see if I'm wrong


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> I dont have a problem if in fact the GT-R is faster than the TT. But I would like to see some REAL testing at least. All media hype and propaganda aside, as that has yet to be seen. I can point out long lists of b.s. from ALL of the testing we have seen thus far.
> 
> The guy drifted A WHOLE TURN for goodness sake!!!!! And they counted that as a timed lap?!?!?!?!
> 
> ...


It's a wonder Porsche haven't got any propaganda to counter _all this GTR hype._


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Yeah I got the circuit wrong, it's Rockingham. Easy mistake, the times are scarily similar. At least I admit when I'm talking shit, unlike you Howsie. You just go on and on, see the congestion charge thread.
> 
> I've got a lot on my mind and heavychevy's unwillingness to accept that the Earth is round and that the GTR is faster than the 997TT, is least of them.
> 
> The GTR will make the same time or better around Bedford when Ev test it. You see if I'm wrong


Please stop cross referencing threads, I can't keep up! 

I hear Charris has obliterated the GT3 in the GTR at Bedford.


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Heavychevy,

I hear what you're saying and I did dismiss the Best Motoring videos as weighted in the GTR's favour, but the evidence is mounting that the GTR is faster.

Re the CAR test, I presume the fast lap was neat and as quick as that guy could get the 997 to go, just cut some sideways stuff in to the vid.

Well, I'm sure there will be loads more tests, so time will tell.

Cheers,


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## kraath (Feb 20, 2008)

R33_GTS-t said:


> It's a wonder Porsche haven't got any propaganda to counter _all this GTR hype._


The GTR is not interesting enough yet. It has to appear in German street legal setup first.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

markM3 said:


> Heavychevy,
> 
> I hear what you're saying and I did dismiss the Best Motoring videos as weighted in the GTR's favour, but the evidence is mounting that the GTR is faster.
> 
> ...


There is evidence, but 90% of it is propaganda and nonsense. What do we have to date? 2 Best Motoring Videos and Car Magazine. And from the looks of the two I dont see anything that's even remotely untainted with with media hype.

It's fairly appearant to me the last lap is shown in parts, and he's sideways for many sections, not to mention why would he have drifted the rest of the time when they were timing laps? 

LOL, I like when he takes a look at the clouds while they are timing laps..... :chairshot .

Granted from the clips shown it looked like he had the TC on in the GT-R as well, so I'm sure there is lots of time in both cars, but at least a legitimate effort would be nice is all I'm saying. I'm 100% sure that what we've seen from best motoring and this video are not realistic.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

How about Porsche make a legitimate effort to build a better car, instead of sending out fanboys to whinge en-mass. It's a wonder Porsche doesn't send over one of its own drivers to drive the 997 given the pounding they're taking.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

kraath said:


> The GTR is not interesting enough yet. It has to appear in German street legal setup first.


I suppose the US market isn't interesting enough either?


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## Lono9885 (Apr 11, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> I dont have a problem if in fact the GT-R is faster than the TT. But I would like to see some REAL testing at least. All media hype and propaganda aside, as that has yet to be seen. I can point out long lists of b.s. from ALL of the testing we have seen thus far.
> 
> The guy drifted A WHOLE TURN for goodness sake!!!!! And they counted that as a timed lap?!?!?!?!
> 
> ...


Dude...the Porsche has the engine in the back and as such will mean greater lateral G is exerted upon the car during cornering this is why the car loses traction quicker than the GTR along with the GTRs newer technology. So you think a legitimate (independant) car magazine would go out of it's way to drive the porsche worse. C'mon, you're sounding like a whining 'porsche fanboy' now.

Besides what is the deal with people and porsches. So what they look nice...a ferrari 355/360 looks much nicer if you wanna play that card for the same money. Ok they handle fairly well but the design hasn't changed for years and I personally am bored with it...they're all driven by numptys in their Boxter s', Caymans, Carrera 4 etc etc blah blah...my 32 is 17 years old and can compete with these...

Imho the only proper porsche even worth considering is the 993 GT2 all the others are for the badge snobs with too much money bar the GT3 RS which is kinda cool.

Cheers Now!
Ad


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## kraath (Feb 20, 2008)

1st of all the GTR is a very exotic, hence "uninteresting" car for Europe still.
This might hopefully change  
Then from what i know US and JAP requirements for cars to be street legal are way below EUR. Specially German standards and requirements. Over here it really will be driven 300 km/h on the streets and not just in your dreams.
To me a real comparison is only possibly with an EUR version against a Porsche.
Both untouched by special mechanics.
If the GTR still wins, then i will get my black bomber


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## Rising sun (Sep 15, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> There is evidence, but 90% of it is propaganda and nonsense. What do we have to date? 2 Best Motoring Videos and Car Magazine. And from the looks of the two I dont see anything that's even remotely untainted with with media hype.
> 
> It's fairly appearant to me the last lap is shown in parts, and he's sideways for many sections, not to mention why would he have drifted the rest of the time when they were timing laps?
> 
> ...



I've kept silent for a while, but this is ridiculous. I'm a track racer in addition to a lot of other things, and one thing I can confidently say is that 911 turbo was pushed to the limits. 

When you drive a mid-engined car, the trick is to use its low center of gravity to your advantage in the turns, and that's exactly what he did on his flying lap. He ran a clean lap in a lot of ways as I noticed the car tried to tail out but he controlled it just enough to make sure it didn't overdo it. 

I also noticed the editor commented that was by far his best lap at the track...well before he got into the GT-R that is. The Porsche simply has an uncomposed chassis compared to the GT-R. 

Any true track racer knows if you can drift around a tight corner you are more likely to take the exit of that corner at higher speeds than someone that brakes and makes a proper apex. I believe Ben used a form of drifting known as shift locking...which involves quickly downshifting and allowing the rear wheels to lock momentarily then mashing the gas pedal hard on exit. you could tell he was employing this tactic in the tight corners. 

The GT-R seemed to REFUSE to tail out. that was the difference. This is something I've seen in other videos comparing the two cars. This is due to the location of the the transmission, the advanced ATTESSA system and the weight distribution. 

When this car was designed, it was designed to turn through weight transfer for both the rear and front tires. The car uses the weight of the engine to turn the front tyres, while the transaxle weight is used when the rear tyres start gripping 0.2secs later. It's that weight transfer that holds it to the ground and stabilizes it in all cornering situations. The new torque transfer aspect of the ATTESSA system also helps in turning the car...this is something I don't care to explain right now

Heavychevy, it is what it is. The GT-R is the better car. You will not see a single comparison between the two cars that won't show the 911 turbo hanging its tail out. That is simply its character and I'm sure Porsche will address this. Also, I know most of what there is to know about the V-spec (as most of you already term it) I can assure you it'll give the Carrera GT a scare if not a beat down.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Christ guys, take a break from the flag bearing! I've never read so much crap and it's making me gag.

You seem to forget that it's thanks to Porsche that Nissan were able (after 6 massive years of absence, I might add!!!) to create a car to perhaps eventually topple the crown.

Fact is, there is NOTHING in the market that can do what the 911 does. The single biggest reason the 911 is so successful is that it simply has no direct rival. The GT3 for the 80k it costs is the most incredible car ever and nothing in that price range can provide the thrills, performance, reliability, ownership prospects and residual value that it does. Nothing!

Porsche have been able to pretty much dominate this sector for the past few years. I've had the cream of the GTR's and frankly, they don't hold a candle to the GT3's of the 911 world. Out of the box, they pale into insignificance. I'm sorry to say, but in recent years the 'legend' of the GTR has been greater than the reality! There is not one single utterly standard GTR that I know of and all the high performance ones cost almost £100k in accumulated spend.

If Nissan hadn't come up with such a ground breaking car after 6 years of analysing Porsche's top models, then that would be cause for serious concern! 

I am more excited daily by the prospect of taking delivery of the new GTR than anybody, but I'm not stupid enough to assume in the name of blind faith.

To sit back and continually whip at the Porsche boys is a fatal excercise. You forget that many of the people who went to Porsche cars used to have GTR's too.

Cut the marque some slack, they've made better cars than anybody in the past 10 years and quite frankly, unless you've driven a 911 in anger, then you have ultimately written off any right you have to slag them off. They're not the most (and only??) profitable company in the world for nothing.

Until then, let's celebrate the GTR for what it is in its own right, an incredibly mouth watering prospect that appears to have become quite the achievement. The only thing we should be arguing about is the chosen colour


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Incidentally, the 911TT is known to be a little tail happy and isn't suited too well for track use. It's primarily an A-B car so I would expect (and hope!) that the GTR is faster on circuit.
The GT3, however, is in its element, and if the GTR would perform better/faster, then THAT would be the ultimate achievement.

One other MAJOR concern I have is how long the GTR can stay out on track without cooking itself. It's a 1700kg car and I don't know of any car like that that can stay out for more than 3-5 laps. This will be the ultimate test for me.


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## monaroCountry (Dec 12, 2006)

> *Any true track racer knows if you can drift around a tight corner you are more likely to take the exit of that corner at higher speeds than someone that brakes and makes a proper apex*. I believe Ben used a form of drifting known as shift locking...which involves quickly downshifting and allowing the rear wheels to lock momentarily then mashing the gas pedal hard on exit. you could tell he was employing this tactic in the tight corners.




F1 drivers aren't true track racers then?


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

kraath said:


> 1st of all the GTR is a very exotic, hence "uninteresting" car for Europe still.
> This might hopefully change
> Then from what i know US and JAP requirements for cars to be street legal are way below EUR. Specially German standards and requirements. Over here it really will be driven 300 km/h on the streets and not just in your dreams.
> To me a real comparison is only possibly with an EUR version against a Porsche.
> ...


Won't be a problem. I drive my R32 at autobahn speeds most of the time.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> Incidentally, the 911TT is known to be a little tail happy and isn't suited too well for track use. It's primarily an A-B car so I would expect (and hope!) that the GTR is faster on circuit.
> The GT3, however, is in its element, and if the GTR would perform better/faster, then THAT would be the ultimate achievement.


I understand. I would personally love a 997TT as a shopping car.



Blow Dog said:


> One other MAJOR concern I have is how long the GTR can stay out on track without cooking itself. It's a 1700kg car and I don't know of any car like that that can stay out for more than 3-5 laps. This will be the ultimate test for me.


It's endurance pace for the Nurburgring was 7min50s, i.e. it would repeatedly lap at that speed.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Christ guys, take a break from the flag bearing! I've never read so much crap and it's making me gag.
> 
> You seem to forget that it's thanks to Porsche that Nissan were able (after 6 massive years of absence, I might add!!!) to create a car to perhaps eventually topple the crown.
> 
> ...


Most of your post continues the flag waving you allegedly decry :blahblah:


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Rising sun said:


> I've kept silent for a while, but this is ridiculous. I'm a track racer in addition to a lot of other things, and one thing I can confidently say is that 911 turbo was pushed to the limits.
> * What is a track racer??? I've never heard of anyone reffering to themselves as such. At least not in the states, and after reading your post you may want to reconsider whatever that means.
> 
> Based on that video??? LOL. Pushed to the limits looks nothing like drifting bud.*
> ...


:sadwavey:


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## Arch5 (Jun 19, 2007)

Hey GTROC! You better update your "fanboy deletion tool". It appears as though you guys have now been infected by the "hc" virus. I feel for you. We picked this up over at NAGTROC a while back and it took forever to finally purge it out. It won't go away easily, and it seems to spread even more quickly if you actually respond to it. Kinda like a stray cat. If you feed it, it'll keep coming back for more. Be careful and Good luck!


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Christ guys, take a break from the flag bearing! I've never read so much crap and it's making me gag.
> 
> You seem to forget that it's thanks to Porsche that Nissan were able (after 6 massive years of absence, I might add!!!) to create a car to perhaps eventually topple the crown.
> 
> ...


Porsche and other super car makers can just be happy, that japan allways tends to fcuk up itself when it comes to compete with a western originated product, against the west. 
Take away for one minute the fact that japanese makers had to struggle and still struggle since good 40years with japanese laws of limiting cars to 280HP, 180kph, max V8 displacements, and a local japanese consumer base that doesn`t see owning a Porsche as much as a status as the peoples in the west do. Then ad that thoses consumers think that a japanese maker has the obligation to build, if sporty, cars for prices that avarage joe can buy and not only the elitist bunch.
Then ad more that japan is an island, surrounded by non-interesting markets(N-Korea, korea, Vladivostok Russia, China ex . . .) that are hostile to japanese products in general in the last 40years.
Then for the last how would the world look today if the US and EU-OZ (west)consumers would regard, fcuking jap products, more as a status for them selves as Ferraris????, no body wanted to buy jap. even if their cars would have been the beautyfullst, fasted and hightech cars in the world!


So Porsche wins here hands down, as the competitor never played all the cards. The new GTR would have been even better, if Nissan had not to fight 6 years with japanese lawmakers to increase (on the paper) the power to 480HP instead of 280HP . . . and limited the entire crap to 180kph. It`s a joke!

Japan is not wangan and 10000HP Supras GTRs! Its the most conservative car market on earth , dominated by japanese (fit in the mass, shut up and go work) mentality.The big performance scene in japan is only driven by few peoples, considering the entire car market consumers.(They have a hard time)

But to the doom of western makers like Porsche and co, japan has also smelt change, young peoples, nomore want to be company slaves and therefore want to express their status (wanted status) trough more exiting products (cars). Toyota is the guideline for japan, they changed the status of the avarge japanese male, who has money, from the boring Toyota Crown driver, with a shit brown interior and grandma curtens, to a fresh young buisness man , with open views of the world, who drives a Lexus IS-F.

This change will affect the entire japanese car industry fundamently soon. The GTR and IS-F are the starters, the real things are coming soon.:smokin:


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## Thrust (Jun 8, 2004)

monaroCountry said:


> F1 drivers aren't true track racers then?


Lewis Hamilton did a beautiful drifting corner last year.


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## Rising sun (Sep 15, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> :sadwavey:


well, I'm a man of few words. Take a look at this video and tell me if you see something familiar....

I on the other hand, will be waiting for a stable hot lap in a 911 turbo....

YouTube - Porsche Turbo 997 vs Porsche GT3 997

In addition, you should know that I have owned a porsche before, I am a member on 6speedonline JUST LIKE YOU ARE...and I hate to do this, but... 

*heavychevy heavychevy is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: braselton ga
Posts: 2,348
Are the 997 TT's really that tail happy from anyone who's tracked one? Every video I see is sliding all over the place.
*

I'm not one to quibble with, I'll crush you like an ant when it comes to automotive matters...and clearly you haven't a clue on the 997 turbo's driving characteristics. 

CHEERS MATE!!:thumbsup:


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## GKDK (Mar 31, 2007)

good work, crushed the germans...hahhaa


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

bonzelite said:


> Most of your post continues the flag waving you allegedly decry :blahblah:


Umm nope.
If you read carefully, I'm saying basically Porsche have had the game to themselves, that's why they've been making the best cars out there.
However, they've kinda been caught with their pants down and the GTR 'appears' to have made a mockery of their recent limelight.

The transition from 996 TT to 997 TT was one of the most undramatic revisions I've ever seen. Talk about resting on your laurels.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Umm nope.
> If you read carefully, I'm saying basically Porsche have had the game to themselves, that's why they've been making the best cars out there.
> However, they've kinda been caught with their pants down and the GTR 'appears' to have made a mockery of their recent limelight.


more flag waving German-bias.

_"appears?"_


It's more than just an appearance!


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

I think the 997TT was both a step up and down in some respects from the 996TT.

The variable turbine geometry got rid of turbo lag w/o sacrificing top end. Always an issue when trying to match turbo sizes. That IMHO was a big engineering feat. There are many issues that had to be addressed to get such a technology to be feasible in a fast sports car without overheating.

The step back was in handling. Having realized TT owners weren't as hardcore, they made the car softer, relegating the more hardcore enhancements to the GT3 and the GT2 (which has only recently been announced). I understand from TT owners that even in PASM Sports mode, the suspension isn't as stiff as they'd expect.

I guess Nissan didn't really have any other yardstick to measure the GTR against, except the 997TT. If they had used the GT3, there's a big disparity in terms of torque and power. 

So in terms of measuring up to original goals, I do think Nissan have done it.

Unfortunately, there're two extreme ways of dealing with this. On the one hand, we have chevy's denial (which is getting really lame now... after bearing with his incessant tedious rants in NAGTROC). The other is the "IN YOUR FACE, PORSCHE!!"  that bonze seems to advocate (I wonder if it is tongue in cheek)

BlowDog is right in that the 911 has been a great product almost without real competition. It's one reason why Porsche is making money enough to turn the tables on Veedub. And why companies like Aston/Audi and now Nissan keep trying to make "Porsche" beaters of their own. 

FWIW, if they ever make a Cayman GT3 or Turbo, barring the badge snobbery, it could seriously give the R35 a run for its money.


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

What is this all about? My car is better than yours??? 
Now the GTR is faster (officially/ unofficially bla bla)...wait some time and Porsche brings a new model which will be faster again then Nissan starts the Spec-V and so on and so on...
I don't like Porsche too much, as I don't like Ferrari too much but that's only an opinion. Nevertheless these are great cars and I'd love to drive one.
And I respect other people's cars. In the essence these are machines to deliver emotions and most owners have certain reasons to buy this car or that car and most owners are of course proud of their make. 
Like a V8 1967 Mustang or Dodge Challenger are great cars, although they drive like on rubber suspension.
Why can't we just be proud of the GTR without mooning to competitors?

It sounds like some GTR fans behave like the looser in a high school movie who hit a lucky punch on the football school star, knocked him out and now runs through the whole town telling everybody about it.


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## skylineGTR_Guy (Mar 23, 2004)

Don't forget autocar tested it too.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by Autocar
> Even if they were equally priced, any objective assessment of these vehicles would have to conclude that the Nissan is the better car. I can't believe I'm writing this, but it really is the case


Quote:


> Originally Posted by Autocar
> Progress is thrilling for the consumer but cruel to the competition. The Turbo must respond, and soon, because the GT-R is the undisputed winner here.


and some info someone brought up regarding the article:

_What makes this piece all the more interesting is that the author (Chris Harris) is without a doubt biased; he is a huge Porsche fan, serial 911 owner and contributor to a number of different Porsche publications._


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

bonzelite said:


> more flag waving German-bias.
> 
> _"appears?"_
> 
> ...


Easy tiger, stop trying to pick holes in my argument. I'm trying to play devils advocate. I don't recall other manufacturers releasing a Banzai car and suddenly giving the two fingered salute to Nissan. Nobody else does it, yet we seem to be very clear when trying to rub Porsches face in it and well, it's pretty childish and sad.


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## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Blowdog,

I agree with you. Some from both camps appear to be blinded by their enthusiasm for their respective marque.

Me, I like'em both and can afford neither!

And your right, the GTR appears to be the quicker circuit car, but don't think the GT3 will be automatically quicker than the 997TT, as although it handles better, the turbo has massive mid range punch and has been faster on some circuits (Isn't it 2 seconds a lap quicker than the GT3 RS round the Nordscliefe for example with both on Cup tyres?)

Also re the weight of the GTR causing probs on circuit after a few laps, 911's traditionally over heat their rear tyres (due to the weight over them and power going through them and on 993's the temps of the exhaust near them) causing the rear to get more mobile.

Cheers,


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

markM3 said:


> And your right, the GTR appears to be the quicker circuit car, but don't think the GT3 will be automatically quicker than the 997TT, as although it handles better, the turbo has massive mid range punch and has been faster on some circuits (Isn't it 2 seconds a lap quicker than the GT3 RS round the Nordscliefe for example with both on Cup tyres?)


No you're quite right, it really depends on the circuit. Tight, short circuits like brands and Tsukuba favour the NA GT3, but on the longer circuits like Ring and Silverstone, the TT has the based on the big power difference.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Ageed. It seems to detract from what the R35 has managed to achieve, results that are stunning everyone..


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Howsie said:


> Will someone post that Bedford time, I hear it will really ruffle some feathers...
> 
> Humble pie anyone?




Howsie - sorry mate afraid the times are on lock down with Evo mag

Troll - "I would like to see some REAL testing at least" , feel free to take it up with Sensors and Systems / CNC Machines believe me 12 hours at Rockingham was to find the very best times of all 4 cars. Porsche did around 12 laps to get its best time, the GT-R genuinely beat the Porsche on its first flying lap. You can't take a days worth of driving from a 5 min vid. btw Nissan Press office and most the gt-r loving world are viewing this thread....

Canman - haha i really wish they didn't include that bit of me. They should have shown the 0-60 launch and other bits instead.


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## anthonymcgrath (Feb 22, 2005)

that was a really cool to see - good to see someone test driving it in the uk. Its interesting to see just how well it compares with the porsche 911. Both are superb cars but I didn't realise just how much better this new gtr is and the driver didn't even push it to "lairy" limits either. In fact he just looked calm in the gtr compared to the porsche where he knew what he'd have to do to compensate with the car. good vids - thanks for sharing


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> Howsie - sorry mate afraid the times are on lock down with Evo mag
> 
> Troll - "I would like to see some REAL testing at least" , feel free to take it up with Sensors and Systems / CNC Machines believe me 12 hours at Rockingham was to find the very best times of all 4 cars. Porsche did around 12 laps to get its best time, the GT-R genuinely beat the Porsche on its first flying lap. You can't take a days worth of driving from a 5 min vid. btw Nissan Press office and most the gt-r loving world are viewing this thread....
> 
> Canman - haha i really wish they didn't include that bit of me. They should have shown the 0-60 launch and other bits instead.


12 laps in 12 hours? They surely didnt spend much of their time their actually on the track then huh? And how many of those laps were spent drifting and ruining the tires on the TT? You saw after he drifted an M3 around the track he wouldnt even drive it on a timed lap because the tires were shot, yet it's ok to do that for the TT? And since the best lap came after laps and laps of sliding around the track, how could the superheated, high treadwear tires respond even if he wasnt drifting on the best lap?


You are only making my case stronger. And you cant say it doesnt make sense because it makes PERFECT sense.


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## Rising sun (Sep 15, 2005)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> Howsie - sorry mate afraid the times are on lock down with Evo mag
> 
> T*roll - "I would like to see some REAL testing at least" , feel free to take it up with Sensors and Systems / CNC Machines believe me 12 hours at Rockingham was to find the very best times of all 4 cars. Porsche did around 12 laps to get its best time, the GT-R genuinely beat the Porsche on its first flying lap. You can't take a days worth of driving from a 5 min vid. btw Nissan Press office and most the gt-r loving world are viewing this thread....*
> 
> Canman - haha i really wish they didn't include that bit of me. They should have shown the 0-60 launch and other bits instead.



The little bloke is something else isn't he:chuckle:


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

I wonder what this thread would have been like had the GTR lost.

:chairshot :chairshot 

Like Blowdog says, its THANKS to Porsche that the new GTR is so good, and there's no doubt that Porsche will learn from the new GTR and in time release an even better car.

Remember peeps, unless you have shares in either company, all this competition is for the best.

Afterall, the American's would never have (pretended to have) landed on the moon had the Russians not launched sputnik.

Bring it on, it's gonna be an intersting few years ahead

Mook


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

I really hate to add onto these threads that so clearly trend into blinkered Porsche vs GTR nonsense, but I have the following to add.

Firstly I have owned R32, R33 and R34 GTRs in varying tunes from stock to 700+ bhp and I currently amongst other things a 996GT2 and have a 997GT2 coming in a couple of months. I have tracked Skylines and Porsches extensively and therefore hope I can comment with some experience on both.

What is clear from my own personal experience is that the R32-34 GTRs were not great on track out of the box, similarly 997TTs are also not great, whereas GT3s/GT2s are natural track cars in standard form. Very few people track TTs for good reason, in that the GT2/3 is simply better and more durable/fun on track. Similarly in the UK, outside of GTR specific days I have almost never seen a GTR on a trackday.

As Blowdog (who had a Nur Spec R34 and now has a 997GT3) says, the reason many people now drive Porsches is that from 2002 to today ie 5 years both Nissan and every other Japanese manufacturer stopped making serious sportscars. After I had an R34 GTR for 3 years I wanted to move on, but Nissan was not making anything to buy, so I went to Porsche as did many others.

Now Nissan have returned and it appears all their time has been well spent and that they have leap-frogged the Europeans in terms of technology. I personally welcome that return very much and will be trying very hard to order both a GTR and a Spec-V to replace it when they become available. I hope this spurs Porsche to up their game and then Nissan in return, so all enthusiasts get progressively better cars to enjoy, such is the nature of competition.

Whilst I also still await an independent test such as Sport Auto magazine at the 'ring, it is indisputably clear from the wide range of journalists of who driven it to date that the new GTR is 'the real deal' and does match/better the 997TT, which is amazing given both the price and the weight of the car.

I suspect that most real enthusiasts understand this, but the fact remains that there will be 'fanboys' from both Marques who will blindly favour their own, but that is simply like having a football forum and having a Liverpool vs Man Utd thread, there will be no agreements, nor should there be.

Guy


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Mooki is right.

Personally I think the problem is that Porsche owners are "seen" as elitist and the problem there is it can be so true as too many have just brought the car as a status symbol (not Cem) instead of as a driver's machine (I know several who have done this). I have been on the track in my GTR with GT3's etc before and they are bl00dy fast and corner very well indeed so are a true driver car even if the "badge mob" neither drive it right to find out.

The GT-R owners seem in the most part to be true petrol heads, not in it just for the badge (after all it's just a Datsun). I think this perception is where most of the problems of Porsche vs GT-R comes from. If this discussion was about Evo vs GT-R it would all be very friendly.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

I think the main point here is the GTR is very quick around a track and very quick on the road. So is the 911TT, but all tests up until now have shown the GTR to be quicker. As the 911TT has always been, in my living memory, the king of everyday supercars I think its going to take time for the porsche fans and public to accept the GTR is at least a match for the TT.

To be fair, this is a GTR owners forum, anyone shooting the GTR down is going to be met with a fair few words to the contrary. If that weren't the case none of us would be on here

The fact that Porsche fans are having to defend their favourite marque shows just what an impact the GTR has had.

I love the 911TT, but the GTR is better :flame:


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## xsvoid (Sep 15, 2002)

Guy said:


> but that is simply like having a football forum and having a Liverpool vs Man Utd thread, there will be no agreements, nor should there be.
> 
> Guy


Guy, agreed with everything you said - a well constructed statement. However, the burning question in my mind is who do you support Liv or Crapchester Utd ?


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Benji Linney GTC said:


> Howsie - sorry mate afraid the times are on lock down with Evo mag


I have heard that it destroyed the GT3's time! Yes? No?


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## Kyuubi (Dec 3, 2007)

Just watched the second part....WOW!!


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

skyline69_uk said:


> Mooki is right.
> 
> Personally I think the problem is that Porsche owners are "seen" as elitist and the problem there is it can be so true as too many have just brought the car as a status symbol (not Cem) instead of as a driver's machine (I know several who have done this). I have been on the track in my GTR with GT3's etc before and they are bl00dy fast and corner very well indeed so are a true driver car even if the "badge mob" neither drive it right to find out.
> 
> The GT-R owners seem in the most part to be true petrol heads, not in it just for the badge (after all it's just a Datsun). I think this perception is where most of the problems of Porsche vs GT-R comes from. If this discussion was about Evo vs GT-R it would all be very friendly.


You're hitting the essence of it. In a way it's very class-warfare of an issue. Jap/tuner people are often self-perceived as unsung heroes and looked down upon by many of the German/Italian sophisticates who appoint themselves superior by default. 

Hence the tension. 


I'm a devout fan of Nissan's GT-R and don't really hate any Porsches. I simply have disdain for the assumed superiority of German cars "by default," particularly when it is nearly irrefutable that the R35 has risen quite above the 997tt, and will continue to trump all cars of the 911 series as it undergoes further variations. 

Not only that, recent offerings from BMW and Mercedes have been studies in high-tech junk.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Howsie said:


> I have heard that it destroyed the GT3's time! Yes? No?


I'm going high 1:21, or low 1:22. Any advances?


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## Mad_Aus (Feb 23, 2008)

That would put it in league with the Audi R8 would it not?


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Mad_Aus said:


> That would put it in league with the Audi R8 would it not?


ha the R8 was over two seconds off the R's pace. I also drove it and was happy to give the keys back for my GTR



__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view


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## Peely (Jan 27, 2008)

Howsie said:


> I have heard that it destroyed the GT3's time! Yes? No?


Not sure if this is a re-post ? But exellent vids.
This is probably a better comparison with the GT3
Part 1 YouTube - Nissan GT-R | Porsche 911 GT3 | BMW M3 [Autocar] - Part 1
Part 2 YouTube - Nissan GT-R | Porsche 911 GT3 | BMW M3 [Autocar] - Part 2

Not a lot in it around the track on similar rubber too !


Yep, just seen the other thread !  Doooh !!


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Peely said:


> Not sure if this is a re-post ? But exellent vids.
> This is probably a better comparison with the GT3
> Part 1 YouTube - Nissan GT-R | Porsche 911 GT3 | BMW M3 [Autocar] - Part 1
> Part 2 YouTube - Nissan GT-R | Porsche 911 GT3 | BMW M3 [Autocar] - Part 2
> ...


...


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

bonzelite said:


> You're hitting the essence of it. In a way it's very class-warfare of an issue. Jap/tuner people are often self-perceived as unsung heroes and looked down upon by many of the German/Italian sophisticates who appoint themselves superior by default.
> 
> Hence the tension.
> 
> ...


The GTR is the god of all young peeps that have a passion for sports cars, not especially Motorsports nuts, that get charmed by the power and handling of cheap mass production cars that at the end went pretty well around corners, many times better then bloody expensive elitist cars from germany, italia ex . . . 

I personally identify myself with peoples who started changing pistons inside a Suzuki GTI, the guys in the US who bolt on turbo kits on 1.6 Vtec engines, the type of japanese otakus who spend thausend of houres to tune japanese budget sports cars and contribuated to what is today the JDM tuning aftermarket . . . all theses thausends of local and national fanclubs, are mainly composed of peeps that can`t afford even a brand new Mondeo. The GTR is out of reach for most, but it is build by the one of the same makers, who provided cars , pacted with sportiness, fun and joy , for the pleasure of middel class car owners and peoples with lesser budgets.

All this wave of the young boy taking out his 300HP turbo civic and takes the shit out of most Bimmers and co on the street , are the Robin Hoods of the new time. It`s a movement of the brave, . . . .

One reason I will never like german cars or supercars in general, even if they are bloody nice and fast cars, . . . is the fact that they are made for the elitists of the society and not ment to let enjoy every body.
I my point of view every car maker has the obligation to have cars in the line up that are high end and cheap in order to let enjoy the max. of peoples . . . that`s why I like to be a Nissan (or other JDM maker)Fanboy. I can choose between a cheap supercharged 150HP Micra and a 500HP GTR, plus every thing inbetween. Makes the owners of all social class enjoy the products of one maker and brings thoses peoples together and lets every body have his part of the share . . . 

An essence, super car makers never gave to normal peoples (the majority) , Porsches should cost half of the price, then they would have the same status as a Datsun, now their status is just some blured elitist propaganda , hidden behind the excuse that the bloody expensive cars, actually drive very well, better then most other cars . . . .(but not because they are expensive).


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

gtrlux said:


> The GTR is the god of all young peeps that have a passion for sports cars, not especially Motorsports nuts, that get charmed by the power and handling of cheap mass production cars that at the end went pretty well around corners, many times better then bloody expensive elitist cars from germany, italia ex . . .
> 
> I personally identify myself with peoples who started changing pistons inside a Suzuki GTI, the guys in the US who bolt on turbo kits on 1.6 Vtec engines, the type of japanese otakus who spend thausend of houres to tune japanese budget sports cars and contribuated to what is today the JDM tuning aftermarket . . . all theses thausends of local and national fanclubs, are mainly composed of peeps that can`t afford even a brand new Mondeo. The GTR is out of reach for most, but it is build by the one of the same makers, who provided cars , pacted with sportiness, fun and joy , for the pleasure of middel class car owners and peoples with lesser budgets.
> 
> ...


:thumbsup: :clap: :thumbsup: :clap: 

+1000

What will you have, sir, I'm buying.


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## m33porsche (Feb 23, 2008)

First post so here goes.

Most of my recent cars have been german, culminating in a 997S. Yes I'd have to say there is some elitism in owning this type of car but the overwhelming reason was speed and feel. 

I sold the 997 last year as it was was costing a foreign holiday in tyres/servicing and am now piloting a BMW 335i Coupe - I have to say, 9/10 as fast for most of the time and more comfortable, bit I miss the feel.

So, I've been hunting and I think I have found what I was looking for here, the GT-R. Judging by the previous posts I think you are underestimating the respect that the Skyline heritage has among the "german car brigade". 

I know nothing about this car so let me tell you what I know (if you know what I mean!)

- FAST
- technologically advanced
- tunable
- rare
- reliable
- cult following

Now, me being a bit of an elitist, but mainly a petrolhead, I want to buy into that. So, come 335i replacement time this is my target car - assuming availability isn't an issue.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

m33porsche said:


> First post so here goes.
> 
> Most of my recent cars have been german, culminating in a 997S. Yes I'd have to say there is some elitism in owning this type of car but the overwhelming reason was speed and feel.
> 
> ...


good first post.

The ego exchanges over Jap v German are largely in the domain of *****-measuring in debates. In some cases these escalate into flaming. 

Usually this happens most often when someone from a German enthusiast site interlopes onto a Jap site and begins bashing the Jap car (in this case the GT-R). 

At this point all bets are off and the interloper is flamed back. Many enthusiasts own or have owned many makes of cars simultaneously and can talk at length about the merits and detractors of Porsche, Nissan, Toyota, BMW, Ferrari, and it's more informative and interesting than fanyboy-ish. 

Indeed, on track days people tend to be comrades or at least friendly competitors out for fun. The event unites them under a common purpose even if we all have our favorite cars. 

The GT-R is one of my favorites and you won't go wrong with buying one.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

gtrlux said:


> One reason I will never like german cars or supercars in general, even if they are bloody nice and fast cars, . . . is the fact that they are made for the elitists of the society and not ment to let enjoy every body.
> I my point of view every car maker has the obligation to have cars in the line up that are high end and cheap in order to let enjoy the max. of peoples . . . that`s why I like to be a Nissan (or other JDM maker)Fanboy. I can choose between a cheap supercharged 150HP Micra and a 500HP GTR, plus every thing inbetween. Makes the owners of all social class enjoy the products of one maker and brings thoses peoples together and lets every body have his part of the share . . .
> 
> An essence, super car makers never gave to normal peoples (the majority) , Porsches should cost half of the price, then they would have the same status as a Datsun, now their status is just some blured elitist propaganda , hidden behind the excuse that the bloody expensive cars, actually drive very well, better then most other cars . . . .(but not because they are expensive).


While your comment is dripping with bravado, it's very misguided and the end result is BUSINESS, and there are multiple sectors of it, maybe because you dont understand it gives you reason to hate it. For many manufacturers, especially small volume manufacturers, they HAVE to charge X amount of dollars for each car since they only sell so many. And many people want something different than what everyone else has. Every car maker CANT have cars in their line up that fit what you say because they dont have the production capabilities and to lock in a space in a niche market. And saturating the market with a bunch of Ferrari, Lambo or Porsche Micros would only saturate the brand name anyways.

The GT-R in essence is Nissan's attempt at exclusivity, they actually are trying to get rid of the young fanboy crowd with the price of the car, this in and of itself debunks your sentiment. Not to mention it's the Ferrari of Japanese sports cars, similar to what the NSX used to be. And there will be plenty driving them that will soon begin to sneer at the civics and Evo's that try to race them on every street even though they used to drive one. And hence they will be considered the ones looking down their noses at some point. $70,000 (U.S) is no longer made for everyone as the % of people that can even afford that amount of car is very small. And the cost of maintenance and rising fuel prices will eliminate even more people. And the low volume will keep the prices up.

There is only room for so many MAJOR car manufacturers, and even some of the biggest ones are struggling, mainly in the U.S. because they cant source cheap asian labor rates and their productions costs are more than what it costs to produce in asia, and they dont use the same materials that are also made cheaper over there. So they defect to putting higher quality materials and making a more exclusive product and providing better and more specialized service. It's the same way in several facets of business.

And while Bonze jumps up and claps, he was the same one going from a GTO to a Ferrari (or so he said), and not considering an R35. Everything that shines isnt gold, keep that in mind.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

heavychevy said:


> mainly in the U.S. because they cant source cheap asian labor rates and their productions costs are more than what it costs to produce in asia, and they dont use the same materials that are also made cheaper over there. So they defect to putting higher quality materials and making a more exclusive product and providing better and more specialized service. It's the same way in several facets of business.


Most of the other things you said were spot on, the GTR is not cheap and will be an elitist and exclusive car.

However, I dont think the sole problem for the USA car manufacturers is their access to cheap labour/materials. Firstly Labour in Japan and Europe is sky high yet they have managed volume production of run of the mill Nissans, Toyota's, Peugeots, renaults and honda's ect which are all ultra competitive. I'd also argue that pound for pound the average level of technology (brakes, suspension, engine ect) is a higher standard on a jap motor that a USA motor. 

And thats been the problem, companies like Ford and GM have pretty much had the american market to themselves up untill now. But with Japan racing ahead with technology and efficiency the american marques stagnated in technological terms and grew into massive corporations (with many different brands) which have started churning out cars that fewer people find attractive with the jap made motors being more advanced, reliable and cheaper to run. GM and Ford are great companies, but their problems are not solely down to problems with labour costs, but also with the fact that their products often fall well short of what the customer can get from Toyota, Nissan ect.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

I agree. There are many problems with American auto makers on top of labor rates (and union issues).


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

heavychevy said:


> And while Bonze jumps up and claps, he was the same one going from a GTO to a Ferrari (or so he said), and not considering an R35. Everything that shines isnt gold, keep that in mind.


Not this again. 

There's nothing wrong with liking other cars. You're holding me to wanting a Ferrari to the exclusion of a GT-R and that isn't true. 

Ferraris are among the most beautiful cars in the world whether they're exclusive or not. 

The GT-R trumps most Ferraris old and new in performance and even styling in some cases. I don't like all Ferraris any more than I like all Nissans or all of any other make. 

Insofar as elitism, the GT-R was likewise always the elite of Nissan. This is simply continuing, albeit at a level beyond prior GT-Rs. To be the among the best requires rarity, exclusivity, uniqueness. 

However "elitism" in the context of arrogance and snobbery isn't necessarily very unique, the best, or rare.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

bonzelite said:


> Not this again.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with liking other cars. You're holding me to wanting a Ferrari to the exclusion of a GT-R and that isn't true.
> 
> ...


After having driven the GTR today, in terms of real world performance, most Ferraris would be eaten alive, if not all.


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## Northern Monkey (Sep 20, 2004)

heavychevy said:


> ....The GT-R in essence is Nissan's attempt at exclusivity, they actually are trying to get rid of the young fanboy crowd with the price of the car, this in and of itself debunks your sentiment.....


I really dont understand this comment and believe you are just attempting to antagonise the situation!! The GTR is actually comning out for a expected £55k. This has been the cost of a new GTR since I know of. Take into account inflation over the last 10 years and the car is actually cheaper than it was.

I cannot understand why any car firm would want to remove any type of fanboy crowds. Lets face it, in the end its our inner child that buys the car.

As for the whole porsche and GTR debate, they are both fantastic cars and I cant wait to see Porsches response. Shame I cant afford either but at least I know when i do come to having the chance that it will be good fun deciding. I agree with Mook competition is only good for the consumer.


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## Northern Monkey (Sep 20, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> After having driven the GTR today, in terms of real world performance, most Ferraris would be eaten alive, if not all.


That said I bet you would still have an Enzo over the GTR... 

Lucky devil wish I could drive one!!


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> After having driven the GTR today, in terms of real world performance, most Ferraris would be eaten alive, if not all.


I basically said that in my post, you didn't read it or you are agreeing with it  

That said, a new Honda Civic could probably overtake a 1962 250GT SWB but I'd rather have the latter.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

Northern Monkey said:


> I really dont understand this comment and believe you are just attempting to antagonise the situation!! The GTR is actually comning out for a expected £55k. This has been the cost of a new GTR since I know of. Take into account inflation over the last 10 years and the car is actually cheaper than it was.


Yes, you're beginning to understand the planet of heavychevy.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Maybe heavychevy should look at Cem's drive for another in site into the new GT-R...

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/92347-so-i-drove-gtr-today-thanks-ben.html


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

bonzelite said:


> I basically said that in my post, you didn't read it or you are agreeing with it
> 
> That said, a new Honda Civic could probably overtake a 1962 250GT SWB but I'd rather have the latter.


Sorry, I was agreeing with you


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> Sorry, I was agreeing with you


no worries :smokin:


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

To summarise the thread:


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Northern Monkey said:


> I really dont understand this comment and believe you are just attempting to antagonise the situation!! The GTR is actually comning out for a expected £55k. This has been the cost of a new GTR since I know of. Take into account inflation over the last 10 years and the car is actually cheaper than it was.
> 
> I cannot understand why any car firm would want to remove any type of fanboy crowds. Lets face it, in the end its our inner child that buys the car.
> 
> As for the whole porsche and GTR debate, they are both fantastic cars and I cant wait to see Porsches response. Shame I cant afford either but at least I know when i do come to having the chance that it will be good fun deciding. I agree with Mook competition is only good for the consumer.


You are over simplifying my statement, I'm talking about the internet video game, super modification crowd, and this comes from your own, I didnt make this up. Nissan want the GT-R to seriously be considered as an alternative to 997 TT buyers, and those do not fit the profile on the Grand Turismo young bucs that are coming up.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

The supermod crowd often occupies older people who have the money to supermodify. Any GT-R old and new is expensive to modify, in no way attainable by acne faced kids living at home with mom. 

The crowd more often actually buying a GT-R are young to mid-aged professionals. Not masturbating children.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

There are only what 2500 cars coming to the states in the first year or so, I can assure you there are that many 20 -30 years olds that want to buy and mod the crap out of the car and street race it. And certainly have the means (be it parents or sheer determination as their only expense) to do so.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

heavychevy said:


> There are only what 2500 cars coming to the states in the first year or so, I can assure you there are that many 20 -30 years olds that want to buy and mod the crap out of the car and street race it. And certainly have the means (be it parents or sheer determination as their only expense) to do so.


Well, then that's the young to mid-aged professionals, ie, the young end of them. They exist. We're not really in disagreement. 

Maybe you don't agree that 30-40+ people modify the GT-R just as much, if not more...

Lots of people on this site fit that profile.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Rising sun said:


> well, I'm a man of few words. Take a look at this video and tell me if you see something familiar....
> 
> I on the other hand, will be waiting for a stable hot lap in a 911 turbo....
> 
> ...


Here are some stable laps. By Inside Line FROM NISSAN!!!!!!!!!!!


YouTube - Nissan GT-R


Watch the TT completely leave the GT-R in the dust, with simple driving towards the end.

Also watch CAR magazine's comment- Bias Much, this was long before any car came out. So tell me you dont think they had a favorite?

And here is one at Infineon

2009 Nissan Skyline GT-R at Sears Point: Video & Spy Photos


And here is one from another magazine editor you might have heard of.

YouTube - Porsche Turbo Nordschleife



Try again.

And about your video, the guy was trying to drift in both cars, so what's your point? I dont know if they counted those laps or not, but he was obviously TRYING to drift.


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

heavychevy said:


> Here are some stable laps. By Inside Line FROM NISSAN!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> YouTube - Nissan GT-R
> ...


The first two videos were of *preproduction GTRs* being tested, and you have no idea what the conditions were.. was there a headstart? was there an issue with the preproduction tyres etc? 

How pathetic must you be to dig up some thing like this? You actually see this as more convincing proof than a controlled data logged track time driven by a more established Car Magazine Editor who's had more seat time driving more exotics than you and I could even drive in our lifetime? Hmmm...

And the last one was a Turbo doing the ring run.. what does this have to do with this discussion?


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

doggiehowser said:


> The first two videos were of *preproduction GTRs* being tested, and you have no idea what the conditions were.. was there a headstart? was there an issue with the preproduction tyres etc?
> 
> How pathetic must you be to dig up some thing like this? You actually see this as more convincing proof than a controlled data logged track time driven by a more established Car Magazine Editor who's had more seat time driving more exotics than you and I could even drive in our lifetime? Hmmm...
> 
> And the last one was a Turbo doing the ring run.. what does this have to do with this discussion?



YOU didnt read HIS post he asked for stable hot laps in a 997 TURBO!!!!!!!!

:lamer: 

READ!!!!!!!!!!!!


And this wasnt about the GT-R, it was about clean flying laps in a turbo, which he did ask for. But you forgot to read that part.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Here are some stable laps. By Inside Line FROM NISSAN!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> YouTube - Nissan GT-R
> ...


It's a wonder they bother pouring millions into pre-production development if the car is already up to production standard.


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## Rising sun (Sep 15, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Here are some stable laps. By Inside Line FROM NISSAN!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> YouTube - Nissan GT-R
> ...


First off, you didn't see a whole lap...you saw nothing more than a snippet. you're bloody pathetic if you think that's proof of a stable hot lap. Even the CAR video shows a few snippets of the 911 NOT drifting. 

I suppose if you understood some German you'd know he was trying to get an all out hot-lap in the video I posted. Try again my good lad.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

So then the GT3 is impossible to drive without drifting as well, even on sport cups, since he drifted that the whole time he was driving in the clips as well?

The video's are good enough to see the TT driven hard and not drifting, that's good enough for me, and one video where there was lots of tire squeal, and guess what, no drifting, to a trained eye, that's all that need to be seen. Oh and some actual seat time in a 997 TT, which I am left to assume you dont have since you beleive everything you see in a magazine.

And the ring video isnt proof of a stable hot lap?


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## Rising sun (Sep 15, 2005)

I believe everything I see in a magazine? how do you figure? You clearly aren't the trained eye if you think what you saw qualifies as a hot lap. I don't think anyone would even conclude what you presented as such evidence apart from yourself. The GT3 has a resolute understeering characteristic anyone knows that. I wanted you to observe the Turbo.

Now you yourself have innocently wondered about the 997 turbo's tail sliding tendencies on 6speedonline....nothing wrong with that laddy, however YOU DON'T come over here and act like you know all about the bloody car when you don't know worth a shit about it.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

GT3 resolute understeer huh? The video show OVERSTEER while he was DRIFTING. Maybe you should go back and study your track dialect before trying to argue a point.

And still seemed to miss the point that the video you posted was intentional drifiting for the clips, at no point were indicative of being in the car trying a flying lap as HE WAS TALKING WHILE DOING A FLYING LAP in the autocar video.

I asked that question because I thought I was the only one to have done so until I saw Nissan engineers and test drivers doing the same. My seat time in a 997 TT is limited, but I know what I'm talking about from experience, can you say the same?????

Back to digging up youtube you go.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:


All the evidence shows the production GTR to be faster than the 997TT and GT3. Show us some evidence to the contrary or simply shut up.

Your case has nothing. I could argue just as convincingly that a stock Sierra Cosworth is faster than a GT2. After all, an argument like yours requires no proof, I just need to pick faults with all the evidence that defeats my stance.

Face reality. The Earth goes around the Sun and the GTR is better than the 997.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

This debate just gets more hilarious :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: 

Welcome to planet "heavychevy," my UK brethren  

Sorry we had to dump him onto you guys


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Well it seems the same guys from Nagtroc are here to call understeer oversteer, right left and and an apple and orange. Same old circles we tread huh? 

I guess accepting your fate of being banned from several places cant be to bad, only I have actually had factual information and not cultic blabber.

How's that Ferrari treating ya? P-o-s-e-r.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

heavychevy said:


> Well it seems the same guys from Nagtroc are here to call understeer oversteer, right left and and an apple and orange. Same old circles we tread huh?
> 
> I guess accepting your fate of being banned from several places cant be to bad, only I have actually had factual information and not cultic blabber.
> 
> How's that Ferrari treating ya? P-o-s-e-r.


:thumbsup: Ferraris are awesome

I see you haven't changed a bit, ol boy :clap:


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## Rising sun (Sep 15, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> GT3 resolute understeer huh? The video show OVERSTEER while he was DRIFTING. Maybe you should go back and study your track dialect before trying to argue a point.
> 
> And still seemed to miss the point that the video you posted was intentional drifiting for the clips, at no point were indicative of being in the car trying a flying lap as HE WAS TALKING WHILE DOING A FLYING LAP in the autocar video.
> *
> ...


This isn't even directed at you little bugger, but If ANYONE thought that statement made ANY sense in relation to what I had just pointed out may I see a show of hands...


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Rising sun said:


> This isn't even directed at you little bugger, but If ANYONE thought that statement made ANY sense in relation to what I had just pointed out may I see a show of hands...


No, it made no sense*. One may even say it was nonsense. He has been at the crack pipe again.


*You said 'understeer'. He implied that you'd said 'oversteer'. Reading comprehension failed him.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Well well well, so you can drift a GT-R.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Rising sun said:


> This isn't even directed at you little bugger, but If ANYONE thought that statement made ANY sense in relation to what I had just pointed out may I see a show of hands...


You are quoting posts that I made on 6speed, which is what I was respoding to, so the only worthless thing is you questioning people who probably have not read the post in question.

Does THAT make sense to you?


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Well well well, so you can drift a GT-R.


I can drift a bicycle, what's your point?


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> You are quoting posts that I made on 6speed, which is what I was respoding to, so the only worthless thing is you questioning people who probably have not read the post in question.
> 
> Does THAT make sense to you?


His post wasn't directed at you



> you little bugger.


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## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

This is just silly now

Butuz


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Butuz said:


> This is just silly now
> 
> Butuz


Best post on this thread.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

R33_GTS-t said:


> His post wasn't directed at you


He quoted and MADE BOLD my post, I was explaining to him what I meant since he seems to have lost himself in translation.


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## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

Blow Dog said:


> Best post on this thread.


Second best post right there! :runaway: 

Butuz


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## jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

I started reading this thread because I am interested in the new GTR, and thanks to Ben, we have all been given a good incite into this vehicle a year ahead of schedule. 

However I didnt quite make it through the WHOLE 9 pages as its seems to have turned into a massive **** measuring competition as to who knows more about what. Seriously guys we are (hopefully) all grown adults here, perhaps some people should start acting like them.

I'm sure soon enough the admins will all get pissed off with this petty shit and lock the thread anyway, so lets just all calm down and get back to the orignal topic.

End of rant


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> He quoted and MADE BOLD my post, I was explaining to him what I meant since he seems to have lost himself in translation.


Reading comprehension >> You.


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## GTRJack (Aug 27, 2005)

heavychevy mr GM fanboy it's time to shutt tha fcuk up!

He's hi-jacking every single car forum *in the world* which has GT-R threads in it trying so hard to trash the new GT-R. He should get a medal from the Vette fanboys for being a hero and for being a dumbass!


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

R33_GTS-t said:


> All the evidence shows the production GTR to be faster than the 997TT and GT3. Show us some evidence to the contrary or simply shut up.
> 
> Your case has nothing. I could argue just as convincingly that a stock Sierra Cosworth is faster than a GT2. After all, an argument like yours requires no proof, I just need to pick faults with all the evidence that defeats my stance.
> 
> Face reality. The Earth goes around the Sun and the GTR is better than the 997.


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

GTRJack said:


> heavychevy mr GM fanboy it's time to shutt tha fcuk up!
> 
> He's hi-jacking every single car forum *in the world* which has GT-R threads in it trying so hard to trash the new GT-R. He should get a medal from the Vette fanboys for being a hero and for being a dumbass!


Some of you GT-R boys are some real drama queens, you've not seen me trash anything, I'm only arguing the points that the blind followers seem to look past. For example understeer, in how many videos have we seen the car understeer but no one mention it, until fifth gear? 

And............oh my bad, I forgot, you dont specialize in educated auto conversation, so I'll leave you to your nonsensical blander.

BTW in case you havent noticed, my car of choice is a Porsche, though I do have a Corvette as well. The go back to your closet of ignorance and fantasy with your buddies.


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## GTRJack (Aug 27, 2005)

^^ Shut up fanboy! The car isn't overly understeering. Long corners mid to high speed corners it's good that the car understeers a little bit because it's easier to find the limit, it's purposly design so it would be safer insted of dangeriously oversteer at such high speed corners and fly off the track. Ask race cars engineers, do you think they choose oversteer setup rather then a bit understeer setup in a race car?

Bullshit! You are a GM fanboy!


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

GTRJack said:


> ^^ Shut up fanboy! The car isn't overly understeering. Long corners mid to high speed corners it's good that the car understeers a little bit because it's easier to find the limit, it's purposly design so it would be safer insted of dangeriously oversteer at such high speed corners and fly off the track. Ask race cars engineers, do you think they choose oversteer setup rather then a bit understeer setup in a race car?
> 
> Bullshit! You are a GM fanboy!


Kind of hostile there hey Jack.

Race car understeer and street car understeer are two different things, many turns at tracks benefit SLIGHT understeer and make the car faster there. That and street car understeer are two different things. But I wouldnt expect you to know that.


You are out of your element boy.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Let's hear all about this racecar understeer from Beetlebum.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> You are out of your element boy.


You're out of YOUR element, as this forum is full of engineers and people who have actually raced cars, modified them into some incredible machines and hold records for drag racing etc. 

It's just hard for you to realise that your Porsche is no longer the King of the road anymore. You should be glad, Porsche will not sit about for long and let the crown disappear so you should have a very good 998 because of Nissan.

Very few on here are "fanboys" as we all love all cars and have owned/driven a considerable number of differing marquees and we know the strengths and weakness of them. So far the new GT-R (like the old R32) was built to prove a point, you can make a car faster than a Porsche for nearly half the money.

Porsche didn't get to be the most profitable car company in the world by selling their cars at a friendly price (£15,000 average profit on each car in 2007) - and they don't sell that many remember (just under 100,000 in 2007). When you consider the average "in profit" car maker is getting only about £100 a vehicle it doesn't take a maths professor to work out that Porsche is taking a lot of "cream" of the top of the customer wage packet.


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

Butuz said:


> This is just silly now
> Butuz





Blow Dog said:


> Best post on this thread.


I totally agree. First read of this thread for a few days, also the last!


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

skyline69_uk said:


> You're out of YOUR element, as this forum is full of engineers and people who have actually raced cars, modified them into some incredible machines and hold records for drag racing etc.
> 
> It's just hard for you to realise that your Porsche is no longer the King of the road anymore. You should be glad, Porsche will not sit about for long and let the crown disappear so you should have a very good 998 because of Nissan.
> 
> ...


LOL, I could care less about king of the road, I'm just sorting through the nonsense. If several of you track and such then I wont have much problem getting agreement that magazine times have little to no relevance on what and who you actually see going fast at the track. C5 Z06's are still faster than C6Z06's with similar power, same goes for 996 and 997 GT3's, put similar power on the 996 and it's cya later. So all this magazine racing is for my entertainment as I havent seen a 997 GT3 or TT that's in the ballpark of my car, pro's and all.

But if you want to live by, by all means, enjoy yourself. But I happen to know better than to trust the mags.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Butuz
> This is just silly now
> Butuz
> ...





Dave_R1001 said:


> I totally agree. First read of this thread for a few days, also the last!


Completely agree with you guys, some noobs arguments against the god of all cars , the GTR, that thoses silly expensive toys from Bavaria are the better deal, are out of place . . . 

Bad boys


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## Godspd (Dec 12, 2001)

heavychevy said:


> LOL, I could care less about king of the road, I'm just sorting through the nonsense. If several of you track and such then I wont have much problem getting agreement that magazine times have little to no relevance on what and who you actually see going fast at the track. C5 Z06's are still faster than C6Z06's with similar power, same goes for 996 and 997 GT3's, put similar power on the 996 and it's cya later. So all this magazine racing is for my entertainment as I havent seen a 997 GT3 or TT that's in the ballpark of my car, pro's and all.
> 
> But if you want to live by, by all means, enjoy yourself. But I happen to know better than to trust the mags.


Did you even read the thread from Blow Dog about driving the R35 GTR. I think his perspectives from a GT3 Porsche owner says it all and I wonder why you are still ramping on...


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Yes I read it, has nothing to do with what I'm saying, so no, its does not say it all.


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## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

heavychevy said:


> Yes I read it, has nothing to do with what I'm saying, so no, its does not say it all.


Nothing has anything to do with what your saying - because your spouting total drivel.

I wager your an american teenager - I wager you've not driven a turbo or a gt3 and I'll wager you've not driven any GTR's either, let alone the R35. Thus your comments are entireley worthless. You do some google, you watch some youtube videos and you form an oppinion. You won't listen to a car magazine but you will believe a 5 minute video made by some random person like the gospel of jesus christ himself.

TROLL!

Butuz


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

what on earth is this thread about and why is everyone reacting to heavychevy? it seems that a porsche guy has wondered onto this board to stir up some muck.

ignore it. move on.


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## jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

Butuz said:


> Nothing has anything to do with what your saying - because your spouting total drivel.
> 
> I wager your an american teenager - I wager you've not driven a turbo or a gt3 and I'll wager you've not driven any GTR's either, let alone the R35. Thus your comments are entireley worthless. You do some google, you watch some youtube videos and you form an oppinion. You won't listen to a car magazine but you will believe a 5 minute video made by some random person like the gospel of jesus christ himself.
> 
> ...


haha awesome


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## heavychevy (Oct 2, 2007)

Butuz said:


> Nothing has anything to do with what your saying - because your spouting total drivel.
> 
> I wager your an american teenager - I wager you've not driven a turbo or a gt3 and I'll wager you've not driven any GTR's either, let alone the R35. Thus your comments are entireley worthless. You do some google, you watch some youtube videos and you form an oppinion. You won't listen to a car magazine but you will believe a 5 minute video made by some random person like the gospel of jesus christ himself.
> 
> ...



Do you reall want to wager that, because I assure you, YOU WILL LOSE!


I'm 28, own a 996 Turbo and a C5 Corvette coupe with a C5R motor in it. The Turbo is for Time Trials (Time Attack) and the Corvette is being built into a race car.

I am working with a performance shop with plans of taking ownership to support my racing habit, and spend lots of time in GT3's, Caymans, Turbo's testing them. I hold one track record at the moment in Time Trials which is good considering last year was my first year, and there are definitely more to come.

I've showed the NAGTROC boys who I am, I'm not jumping through hoops to show anyone else, if you dont beleive me it's your problem, but if you want to meet me at the track, or have one of your american brethren do so, let me know.


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## jordan (Jan 31, 2008)

wow and i have 15" c0ck


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

jordan said:


> wow and i have 15" c0ck


lol.

If you are a racer HeavyC then you may want to get a GT-R now if you want to see anything but the back of one in GT racing next year.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

So I can sleep at nights please tell me this is not you HeavyChevy...


Glogster - Poster Yourself - NASCAR & GUITARS


:runaway:


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

skyline69_uk said:


> So I can sleep at nights please tell me this is not you HeavyChevy...
> 
> 
> Glogster - Poster Yourself - NASCAR & GUITARS
> ...


The kipper or the mullet?


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