# How low can people go?



## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Imagine this, you get an quote for £1880 for some work to your car. You give the tuner the go ahead on that basis. You wait 5 weeks longer than you were quoted. Eventually you get your car (or the relevant part of your car) back with an invoice which is >£400 more than you were quoted. You ask why and get mailed a list of additional parts used none of which were mentioned as even being possibly required when given the quote at the outset. You pay the original quote value and ask why the additional parts were required *four* times but you don't get a response or even a chase up for the balance for over two months.

At this point you might think to yourself that may be a mistake was made and said tuner has realised this....

You go away on holiday for two weeks and come back to a mountain of post which includes a handwritten plain envelope addressed to your _*WIFE*_. Your wife opens said envelope to find a letter from said tuner asking for settlement of the >£400. Said tuner also decides to include some previously paid in full invoices to the value of nearly £2000. WTF is that all about???


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## PMJ (Sep 11, 2001)

Intresting... not the first time I have heard things like this going on...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Just to clarify, as it's common knowledge that Gary mapped my car before TOTB3, this issue does not refer to GTART.

Isn't it a shame that some people don't have the bollocks to just pick up the phone...


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## Demon Dave (Sep 15, 2002)

...after reading the title I thought you were going for a drop in ride height 

It's not right that...if a price is agreed then, that is the price you should pay. If there unforseen problems/costs present themselves and the tuner can't complete the work for the originally quoted amount, then the sensible thing would have been to call you, discuss the matter and get your go-ahead...

I agree, it's a shame some people find picking up the telephone such a chore


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## skyline501 (Jun 29, 2001)

The really low part of this story is the tuner letting your wife know about previous expenditure on your car. A lot of people on here keep such things secret from the wife (not me of course  ) and the tuners are well aware of this. Lets face it, a lot less money would pass through their hands if tuning was a family decision. 

Name and shame the tuner, he's broken the secret code of trust. 

Vincenzo


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Peter,

My question would be - When the tuner realised that the job was going to cost more than quoted, why didn't they contact you to get a "go ahead" for the extra work/cost?

I use one of the many Oxted based tuners  and they have done extra bits before and not charged me. Extra cost and I always get a call.

Cheers,

Iain


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## BBD (May 30, 2002)

this crap always seems to happen,, the worst one I got is when I got quoted in the bill for OTHER charges ,, what on earth does that mean Other ???? its not labour cuz its listed its not parts cuz its listed its not Tax cuz we dont have any... 

But sending mail to a third party is just wrong thats very low.


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## jae (Aug 28, 2002)

*Kicking*

A good, thorough, business affecting, hospital trip kicking.

By persons unknown. 

Works ex-quote are very kind of them. If they engaged in work without your go-ahead, I believe that you are entitled to say "thanks very much for your generosity", and drive off.

As for a letter to your wife. Unbelievable. And underhand. 

Name the f***ers. This sort of behaviour is unacceptable given what we pay for Skyline tuning. It's not like people aren't making money here.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

It is normal business etiquette to call if a job is going to cost more than a quote - though technically if it is a _quote_ on paper then you are entitled to pay the _quote_ and no more, an _estimate_ is a different matter. Legally they don't have an argument if they didn't ask you first.

As for posting invoices to the wife, LOL!! That's hardly going to win friends and influence people is it? 

So tell us who it is, enquiring minds need to know who to stay clear of.
T


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

That's discraceful!


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## brummie (Jan 13, 2004)

classic debt collecting tactic... they figure that your wife will go wobbly and bully you into paying up 1) to avoid potential aggro, or 2) to "punish" you for spending the 2 grand with out her say so (cutting your nose to spite your face l know but anger and resentment can twist a lot of people out of shape) Don't be suprised if she get's a follow up letter threatening legal stuff.
If you have your facts right... any small print on their quote?.... name 'em. They deserve it.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Name and shame I reckon 

Reminds of a time a while back when a friend of mine got held up in the Wild West of Hampshire by some cowboys who robbed him for money for work that was never authorised or even needed. Rumour has it the same cowboys are known for being pyromaniacs too, they just love blowing things up...

Sorry to hear about your experiences Peter, it's a shame when stuff like this happens as it brings the whole scene down.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Peter,

Be a man! Tel the good lady, the letter was addressed to her so it's up to her to pay.   

Or, on a more serious note, return it to them with a snotty letter telling them how you feel and ask them to submit a full and proper invoice, complete with a justification as to why the extra parts were used. Also, if you think there's any value in it, ask for some of the disgarded parts to be returned to you - after all theyr'e still yours. You never know the postage costs alone might not be wirth the hastle for them ( or they may have to replace them  )


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## pob (Jun 29, 2004)

I would go for a name and shame on this one, as the tuner will learn from his lack of customers !

This is totally out of hand and i think in the eyes of the law, you MUST give a go ahead for additional work over the agreed price, there for i think you are entitled to pay the agreed amount and just leave the tuner to deal with the rest as it is him who has made the original mistake by not quoting you correctly.


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## BlueFin (Oct 18, 2002)

Not the proper way to conduct business. Most run-of-the-mill garages ring you if aditional parts/work is required and ask for the necessary consent before completing the work!


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## Transformer (Apr 6, 2004)

Really bad....  
Does make you wonder what these people think they'll achieve....  
Name and shame....
Then turn up with a boiling wife and let her loose on them for 10 mins with her handbag.... more frightning than a bunch of thugs


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Erm wtf ???

Does it ever occur to any of you that maybe the guy is just trying to get back some money that he is owed ????

Its not always the fault of the tuner you know, i personally was ripped off for £3000 by someone i thought was a mate not long ago for work i did in France, so i know what its like to be out of pocket for money i am owed.....

Things like this should be kept between the person involved and the tuner himself, and what happens in any correspondence between them phone or letter wise shouldnt in my opinion be made public on a forum....

Maybe just maybe theres only one side the the story here ? But the tuner involved is maybe just a little too mature to come on here and slag off the customer ? 
If hes owed money, hes owed money, i dont think any business in their right mind would be able to "manufacture" an invoice for work or parts that havent been supplied and still keep a clear conscience......invoices usually state exactly whats been done. and if its not been done then you have a case.....if it HAS.....then you dont have a leg to stand on.

Just my "often rather unwanted tuppence worth"  Maybe food for thought for some ?

Michael


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## JGTR (Jul 8, 2004)

> Does it ever occur to any of you that maybe the guy is just trying to get back some money that he is owed ????


I think the point is that there was extra work which the customer hasnt been given an explanation for, the original bill has been settled


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## Charlie (Jul 20, 2001)

Well! Well! Peter! Here we go again, your reputation precedes you!
It’s clearly obvious you’re bleating about the necessary parts required along with the OS gear kit as fitted by RB Motorsport.
Again you have little or no idea of the subject in question; one would have no possible chance on an exact estimate to also Include the parts/ancillaries required to rebuild your broken gearbox until it was fully stripped and inspected.
Shame on you Peter in many an instance you have clearly spoken highly of RB Motorsport, its also clear Rod Bell has fitted the appropriate parts deemed necessary to ensure a proper job and trusted you as a long term customer to honour his judgment!
Not you Peter! You have to whinge to each and all, as usual its every one else’s fault and not yours.
Who has interpreted the bill is neither here nor there, had you paid monies due there would be have been no need for a bill to be re-presented! 
Stick the dummy back in Peter!
Rod Bell Motorsport has a very good reputation; your box is obviously well sorted, so stand up man!

Pay the man for a job well done.


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## Transformer (Apr 6, 2004)

Fair point on the one side thing.....
And agreed think at some point we have all done someone a favour or been stitched up on the money side... which again is a fair point and very anoying...

However really any need to send a bill to the wife???

As I say I dont know Peter and dont know the full story or his history so I can only give my outsiders opinion... think I best shut up now


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Its often impossible to quote accurately for jobs, and bits are needed that you didnt expect. The best thing for any garage to own is a crystal ball. 

Ant.


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## brummie (Jan 13, 2004)

MichaelG said:


> Erm wtf ???
> 
> 
> Michael


I thought it was obvious... the core of the original post is that the tuner tried to stir it by sending copies of paid invoices to his wife (how low....) 
Even if the extra's were ligit, other than mischief, what was the point of doing that?


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## brummie (Jan 13, 2004)

AJFleming said:


> Its often impossible to quote accurately for jobs, and bits are needed that you didnt expect.


Agreed..... but i gotta say if the tuner didn't cover himself at quotation this wont be his last unhappy customer. I just had a job done on my wifes car, they quoted me.... then rang me for authorisation to supply additional parts (clips).... which cost....... £4.85. Is that unusual, I wouldn't have thought so given all the consumer protection rights.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

The crux of it is, you call the guy to ENSURE the extra bits are all OK. Its good business practice, and just damn polite!

And billing the wife is neither.
T


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

brummie said:


> Agreed..... but i gotta say if the tuner didn't cover himself at quotation this wont be his last unhappy customer. I just had a job done on my wifes car, they quoted me.... then rang me for authorisation to supply additional parts (clips).... which cost....... £4.85. Is that unusual, I wouldn't have thought so given all the consumer protection rights.


If you are doing a job and you find something else required then of course you will have to add it on, if its going to be more than a few quid I always call the customer - unless I know them well enough to know that they wont mind and that they trust us as an honest garage. How are you supposed to know until you take it apart in many cases?... ....its a wonder there are any garages left with people quoting 'consumer rights' and trying to trick them into getting a cheaper job done. 

Ant.


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## BlueFin (Oct 18, 2002)

Charlie said:


> Well! Well! Peter! Here we go again, your reputation precedes you!
> It’s clearly obvious you’re bleating about the necessary parts required along with the OS gear kit as fitted by RB Motorsport.
> Again you have little or no idea of the subject in question; one would have no possible chance on an exact estimate to also Include the parts/ancillaries required to rebuild your broken gearbox until it was fully stripped and inspected.
> Shame on you Peter in many an instance you have clearly spoken highly of RB Motorsport, its also clear Rod Bell has fitted the appropriate parts deemed necessary to ensure a proper job and trusted you as a long term customer to honour his judgment!
> ...


Charlie it's not a payment issue. You need work done, get a quote and the job done, but if the cost raises above the quote at least you (the customer) should be consulted. The proviso is if you tell the garage to do what it takes to put the car back on the road, and I don't think alot of people do that!


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

AJFleming said:


> If you are doing a job and you find something else required then of course you will have to add it on, if its going to be more than a few quid I always call the customer - unless I know them well enough to know that they wont mind and that they trust us as an honest garage. How are you supposed to know until you take it apart in many cases?... ....its a wonder there are any garages left with people quoting 'consumer rights' and trying to trick them into getting a cheaper job done.
> 
> Ant.


Just as an honest Q - if you were going to take something apart like a gearbox and weren't sure of what the price would be - would you give a firm quote? You might at least qualify it with 'depending on what we find' surely? Trouble is the word '_Quote'_ has legal connotations - if I quote for a contract in my line of work but then it works out more expensive it's my hard luck!
T


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## brummie (Jan 13, 2004)

AJFleming. How are you supposed to know until you take it apart in many cases?... ....its a wonder there are any garages left with people quoting 'consumer rights' and trying to trick them into getting a cheaper job done.
Ant.[/QUOTE said:


> WOWWWWWW. I agree with you 100% It's sad, but if you know there are people out there like that you cover your ass. You only need to learn the lesson once, simple as that. But don't dig a hole for yourself by re-invoicing the wife, you will get flamed everytime. sympathies all round I say.


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

brummie said:


> I thought it was obvious... the core of the original post is that the tuner tried to stir it by sending copies of paid invoices to his wife (how low....)
> Even if the extra's were ligit, other than mischief, what was the point of doing that?


Perhaps because every bill relating to this sent before that had been purely ignored and unsettled ? 
In not getting anywhere, he tried a different approach......no wrong in that.


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

AJFleming said:


> ....its a wonder there are any garages left with people quoting 'consumer rights' and trying to trick them into getting a cheaper job done.
> 
> Ant.



this does not appear to be an issue of trying to get the job done cheaper, a quote and an estimate are two different issues, in my line of work i have to do both, but in any instance as a trader i would always ask for prior permission from the paying customer for the right to fit parts that i had previously not taken into account for what ever reason, bodywork is one of the worst and you will always find at the bottom of an estimate 'subject to hidden damage' because if the body shop strips the car and finds stuff behind that they couldn't see they would be out of pocket, no one in thier right mind would expect a tuner to be out of pocket on jobs but at the very least as a paying customer you should expect the courtesy of a phone call, as for anybody contacting my old woman over a bill in dispute, well........


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## Ent (Sep 30, 2002)

billing the wife is wrong. the company should only ever sort the problem out with the person who has the problem with you/company. not try to sort it out with that person wife because he has ignor you.....that's just not acceptable understanding that it is from a well known company because that company may cause a spilt in a relationship or marriage ( yes, these things can happen and i've seen it ).

not calling the '' customer '' ( that's a very important word ) with regards to '' extra '' or '' more '' parts/money is wrong. '' IF '' that '' customer '' has said fix it with no limit to money then yeah, that's the '' customer '' problem if he/she gets a bill for $1000000. but in this case the '' customer '' has said on this board that he was not informed with regards to the '' extra '' or '' more '' parts/money is needed. because you never know if that customer has enough funds at that very moment or if it's only parts maybe the '' customer '' can get it cheaper.

Ent


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I dont think Peter was trying any tricks or anything - I was making a general statement. Possibly Peter has a valid argument - who knows there are always 2 sides to every story which is why I think its not appropriate to post these sort of things on a Forum. To be fair Rod doesnt come on the forum telling you about yet another timewaster to$$er kid wanting NOS or something on his car waisting hours of his time and then not getting any work done, so why should the punters?

Ant.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Charlie said:


> Again you have little or no idea of the subject in question; one would have no possible chance on an exact estimate to also Include the parts/ancillaries required to rebuild your broken gearbox until it was fully stripped and inspected.


Tut tut Charlie, still having trouble understanding simple English I see, read my post again. It's not the extra cost which the issue here, it's the way in which the tuner has conducted themselves.

I've asked for an explanation on several occasions none of these requests were answered, over two months go by without *ANY* contact until the letter to my wife appears. Of course you can encounter the need for additional parts when opening a box but at the very least I would expect a call at the time to tell me at which point I could sanction the additional works or decide not have the OSG gearset fitted and stick with Nissan parts. A warning from the outset that the parts list could escalate would also be nice instead of just being given a parts cost.



Charlie said:


> Shame on you Peter in many an instance you have clearly spoken highly of RB Motorsport, its also clear Rod Bell has fitted the appropriate parts deemed necessary to ensure a proper job and trusted you as a long term customer to honour his judgment! Who has interpreted the bill is neither here nor there, had you paid monies due there would be have been no need for a bill to be re-presented!
> Stick the dummy back in Peter!.


You've got a fcuking cheek, wtf do you know about this anyway, what do you know what was and what was not fitted. Knowing you as I do, I cannot for one second believe that you would pay a penny more than what you were expecting without some sort of explanation either, wtf do you think I should? Tactics like this may be the way to go where you live but they aren't down here.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> Just as an honest Q - if you were going to take something apart like a gearbox and weren't sure of what the price would be - would you give a firm quote? You might at least qualify it with 'depending on what we find' surely? Trouble is the word '_Quote'_ has legal connotations - if I quote for a contract in my line of work but then it works out more expensive it's my hard luck!
> T


No and I would never give a quote only an estimate, most of the time for us these are spot on but then sometimes not. What I really hate is when some prat comes into the garage and says 'well its got to be done so just get it fixed' you then fix it and they come back and see the bill and say 'bloody hell, I wasnt expecting that much, you should have told me!!' you then remind them that they said 'just go ahead and fix it' and they say yeah but its so much. I have had this with pathetic figures like £100 or maybe £300 - its all a matter of perspective. £300 can be a lot to someone with a 'normal' car but to me that is nothing, with a Skyline, RX7 or Supra thats a couple of tyres or a boost controller, I guess owning a turbo car you get used to shocking running costs.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> Possibly Peter has a valid argument - who knows there are always 2 sides to every story which is why I think its not appropriate to post these sort of things on a Forum.


It was not my intention to name and shame Ant, it is not a policy of this forum, you'd best direct that comment to Charlie. 

But, as a principle, I couldn't and still can't get my head around this issue, wtf would anybody in their right mind think they'd achieve by writing to my wife about something which they've refused to comment upon and have never chased me for or even contacted me about for over 2 months? 

Can you imagine if I were in a rocky marriage and this evidence arrived to prove that I'd spent £4k on my car which my wife didn't know about? Fortunately I'm not and it's not even an issue.

A simple phone call would have been enough....


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## mad mark (Nov 12, 2003)

*your point is very valid*

Customer service !!!!
sound like they don't have any...
mark


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

customer

"my gearbox is ****ed"

garage

"ok, that'll cost about 3k to fit"

customer

"ok, if its gonna be any more can you let me know"

Gargage

"no problem"




job done

mok


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## GrahamM (Oct 27, 2003)

Peter said:


> A simple phone call would have been enough....


Exactly, I had some work done on my Ford RS a few years ago by a well known RS tuner in west london, i had a quote, the final bill was nearly 50% more than the quote, i explained that there was no way i could afford to pay this and said i was quoted a certain amount and if you needed to do any more work then you should have phoned me and asked if i wanted it done, they were fine about it and reduced the price to near enough the original quote. You can't assume everyone has endless amounts of money.


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## potyks (Jun 9, 2004)

MichaelG said:


> Perhaps because every bill relating to this sent before that had been purely ignored and unsettled ?
> In not getting anywhere, he tried a different approach......no wrong in that.


errrr. he sed 2k of settled invoices were sent to his old lady.. note the word settled... whats your agenda? sounds like peter sh1t on you big time, and you cant let go. Tell all or stop dissin the man. Different approach ... try county court, if you have done it right you get your doe.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Well I was not going to say anything but I now feel that I have too.

Rod sold you the OS Giken 4 plate clutch that was going into my car 
because you needed a clutch fast so that you could get your car back on the road
this put my engine build back by about 3 weeks  and he sold it to you at a very fair price 
then you get the new OS Giken gearset at a very good price also. 
you said you had to wait weeks,no wonder Rod had to get it sent over from Japan 
because he had sold the one he had in stock.
He then builds your gearbox and it needed Nissan parts to make it 100% right
no point putting it together with parts that could fail at any moment is there.
Rod even gave you them at trade price he did not put any profit on them.

Rod then drops everything to build your gearbox in time for you to do a trackday
He then tells you the price and you have someone collect the gearbox from Rods on your behalf.
then about 10 minutes later after you know your gearbox is in safe hands 
you then proceed to call Rod and tell him that you are only going to pay him quoted price of £1880  

funny that you did not call him before you had the gearbox picked up is it.??????  

the list price for the OS gearkit is about £1550
Rod then spends about 2 days on your box getting the parts and building it up 
for you to take the pi$$ out of him. He did not make his fortune on this job did he

Even when he sold you the clutch and you fitted it wrong
you then tried to blame him for your std bolts being too long ??????

Peter you really need to stop posting crap like this on this site 
because the last post about your engine failing was way out of order and now this.

If you have a problem with R.B Motorsport take it up with them direct not on here please

Keith


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

***** me sideways*

I hate this forum sometimes


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## GrahamM (Oct 27, 2003)

keith said:


> Well I was not going to say anything but I now feel that I have too.
> 
> Rod sold you the OS Giken 4 plate clutch that was going into my car
> because you needed a clutch fast so that you could get your car back on the road
> ...


Well that puts a different slant on it.


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## coxie (Oct 23, 2003)

i see the people who use this tuner  are keen to post their support


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

paul creed said:


> I hate this forum sometimes




ditto, an i only been on here a short while, i went to see a young lad that lives just down the road, drives a blue R33 LM, just to chat about skylines and stuff, i'd not long had mine, and i also wanted to see a proper skyline, i happened to mention that i didn't 'see' on the forum that often, he shot me a sideways look that now means a great deal more than it did then.  
i have never dealt with rb motorsport, but i have brought bits from peter,(nice guy, went out of his way to help me) so there are obviously 2 sides to this story both parties feel aggreived, but at the end of the day the issue seems to revolve around a 'misunderstanding' - communication of some sort would have sorted it a lot more amicably, seems to me writing to a partner is still not the way forward, and as a business person if i had an outstanding debt there are far more formal and dare i say correct ways to pursue the monies

mods- everyone has had their say button up the thread


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

GrahamM said:


> Well that puts a different slant on it.


Well it might if it was accurate but needless to say, it's far from the truth on several counts. 

May be starting this thread was an error of judgement but I was and still am incensed that somebody should stoop so low as to write to my wife about something which they have made no, and I mean absolutely no attempt to resolve with me unless you class not replying to my emails and making no attempt to contact me in anyway as trying to resolve it. I still haven't even had the invoice (apart from an email) which was promised months ago....

Anyway, this appears to be going off topic now and certain people seem to have difficulty in appreciating the point I trying to make so I'll close it. PM me if you want....


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Sending the bill to the wife would get a punch on the nose... from my missus to me... then I would go and do the same to the person that sent that bill only much much harder. 

If you are owed money then take it up with the courts. Whatever next, will we break into peoples houses to retrieve goods to the value of?


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

I'm not going to get involved any further on the specifics of this given its obviously a sensitive issue that I have little knowledge about.

Having said that - if the letter was addressed to Peter and was opened by the wife, that's one thing. To have the letter knowingly addressed to the wife, for no apparent reason at all, is out of order. As others have mentioned for all anyone might've known Peter this could've had serious financial ramifications if he happened to be in the throes of a messy divorce, and even if this wasn't the case I'm sure Peter (like most people) doesn't divulge exact figures to "her indoors" for obvious reasons. Mailing the wife with outstanding bills and especially previous invoices strikes me as a self-defeating prophecy. 

I don't know Peter's missus but I'd be surprised if he hasn't had somewhat of a thick ear about the amount shown on the bills (or worse - the silent treatment ) and if anything this would probably make him less able to put money tuners way in the future.


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## BlueFin (Oct 18, 2002)

Howsie said:


> Sending the bill to the wife would get a punch on the nose... from my missus to me... then I would go and do the same to the person that sent that bill only much much harder.
> 
> .....QUOTE]
> 
> LOL   Unless your married to my half in which case I'd have to wait until the quacks have operated and removed my testicles from where my tonsils were before I visit the bill sender!


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

In fairness I think the tuner in question tried to do the right thing initially. And I suspect that with reasoned discussion, Peter could perhaps accept this and everyone could have moved on.

But.

As soon as you start sending unpaid and previous invoices to the wife, it's a different ballgame.

Paul


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Pavlo said:


> In fairness I think the tuner in question tried to do the right thing initially. And I suspect that with reasoned discussion, Peter could perhaps accept this and everyone could have moved on.
> 
> But.
> 
> ...


Couldnt agree more but have a slightly different view on it.

"As soon as you start sending unpaid and previous invoices to the wife, it's a different ballgame."

Could easly have read

"As soon as you start getting unpaid invoices its a different ballgame"

There is no reason that with a discussion Peter could not have come to some arangment with Rod over payment and none of this should ever have hit this forum.

Reading these posts it seems as if RB gave Peter a good deal on the box, in all fairness Rod should have contacted Peter to explain what other parts were needed when the box was stripped but for whatever reason this never happened.

Personally I would still say that Peter got a good deal on what he got, if anyone is out of pocket its RB for selling the G/Box at under list price in the first place. Bear that in mind when you judge on what caused RB to send a bill to Peters wife when a previous bill had been ignored.

Contrary to popular belief no tuner does jobs just for the glory, bare min you have to break even to stay in buisness. It doesnt help the cashflow when customers dont pay. Like yourselves we dont work for free but I bet Rod like a few others has went through weeks when he took home no money as a job wasnt complete or he hadnt been paid ............ not something many of you would relish I would guess ?

I have only met you once Peter and you seemed a nice guy but this post has saddened me, I agree that RB should not have sent a bill to your wife .... however will you not agree that he never should have had to ?

The situation should have been resolved long before this and certainly should not be for public view on this or any other forum.


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

I was being specific about the wife part. There is nothing unusual about getting in invoice in the post for monies outstanding, but it's good business practice to ensure the customer understands what he has paid for, especially if it differs from a written quote.

I quite agree that RBM made an outstanding effort to get a customers car prepared to the highest level in a tight time frame. With the customer on holiday, it's not always practical to be advised on whether to do extra work or provide extra parts. So in this instance it seems RBM made the call to press on ahead and do the job to their professional satisfaction, I have to say I would have done the same if I were sure it was essential.

However, a preffered approach to getting your customers to pay for parts/work you have provided essentiall 'at risk', would be to show the necessity and the value, and not to start bullying the customer into paying money that he is legally entitled to keep.

Paul


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Right, I'll try to make this my last post on the subject although somehow I doubt that it will be.

I've already commented that Keith's account is not accurate on several counts but a detailed explanation will only serve to escalate things so I'll leave that for the moment.

When Keith has a look through my emails at Rod's I am sure that he will confirm that none of my emails since getting my box back have been answered. I have had no explanation whatsoever either verbally or by letter or by email why the extra parts were required. I have had no missed calls from RBM nor any messages left for me on any of my telephone numbers. I have never criticised Rod's workmanship, the box did take longer than quoted which did cause a sweat at the time but I did get it back just in time to fit before an event which I had arranged for the GTROC. My one and only cause for concern is why should somebody write to my wife about a private matter in the first place and secondly why include copies of substantial invoices which I had paid in full on the nose at the time.

Some people on here appear to believe that my posting about an un-named tuner on an internet forum is far worse than that tuner attempting to come between me and my wife. Surely somebody out there agrees with me on this?



Crail Loser said:


> There is no reason that with a discussion Peter could not have come to some arangment with Rod over payment and none of this should ever have hit this forum.


I wasn't looking for an arrangement Marc, all I wanted was an explanation.



Crail Loser said:


> Reading these posts it seems as if RB gave Peter a good deal on the box, in all fairness Rod should have contacted Peter to explain what other parts were needed when the box was stripped but for whatever reason this never happened.
> 
> Personally I would still say that Peter got a good deal on what he got, if anyone is out of pocket its RB for selling the G/Box at under list price in the first place. Bear that in mind when you judge on what caused RB to send a bill to Peters wife when a previous bill had been ignored.


I don't know how many times I have to say this, I did not ignore the invoice, I paid the quote and asked for an explanation for the extra works, end of.



Crail Loser said:


> I have only met you once Peter and you seemed a nice guy but this post has saddened me, I agree that RB should not have sent a bill to your wife .... however will you not agree that he never should have had to ?
> 
> The situation should have been resolved long before this and certainly should not be for public view on this or any other forum.


Agreed and agreed but like I said above, my posting about this here and not even naming RBM is imo insignificant compared to their actions.


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

I happen to agree Peter.


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## tommyflan (Aug 14, 2003)

*the letter s*

the letter s after mr
sounds like its caused you a lot off grief peter
having a moan about a tuner[well thats not a first is it]
watch out tuners peter could be near you soon  
take a chill pill peter 
btw your not a cross dresser by any chance  
have a nice day
bye now


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Whoa, that'll do me folks, one veiled threat is one too many in book after what's happened, it's been good...


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## car1tref (Oct 2, 2003)

Having watched and read this over the past few days I as a customer of several tuners over the years wish to say the following:
1. I totally agree with Peter with regard to the tuner being out of order with regard to giving a letter to Peter's wife rather than Peter himself. This is really out of order and I believe shows no backbone whatsoever, further, as the tuner has'nt even bothered to respond to email's he shows that he certainly has something to hide.
2. My tuners always ring me and explain in detail why I would need any extra cost incurred and would not carry on the work unless I agreed. This is not only a matter of trust between the tuner and customer but this has a bearing in law, a normal trading Standards officer can tell you this. Unless the tuner can justify fitting the parts without the customers consent then the customer is not liable for this extra cost.
Unfortunately Peter, you will get a lot of people jumping to the Tuners aid on these websites, as a friend of mine found out to his cost on the "scoobynet" a while ago when he was ripped off by a certain Subaru tuner (a tuner who subsequently went bust) he was threatened with physical violence because he had the audacity to tell the world how he was ripped off.
Peter, this club to my mind is for enthusiasts of the marque and by bringing this to the attention of us normal members, I feel you have done well and even if the whole thread is filled by cronies of the tuner and you are threatened by all and sundry, I for one thank you for bringing this to our attention and showing that cowardly practices such as the one highlighted here are exposed!


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2004)

Im glad Ive got an NSX, it dont need tuning by anyone


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

YAWN  

How come this thread hasnt either been deleted or edited by now out of interest ?

I personally posted something on this forum a while back when Mark @ Abbey had been slating my car in an email to a potential buyer when i was trying to sell it, i did nothing to deserve that and made it clear to all on here what i thought of it. That was a thread which was a totally different kettle of fish, as it wasnt a dispute between us, but rather an incident of a tuner trying to undercut me by selling a car of his own by badmouthing mine,nonetheless my thread was deleted once the tuner expressed concern but note that he didnt actually deny the claim. 

However, RB Motorsport are depicted in a similar sort of light, rather unfairly, because a *dispute* between the customer and tuner has not been kept between them as it should have been. There are two sides to this story, and i think it says a lot that Rod Bell has decided NOT to register and post on this thread. It actually pretty much says that he has confidence in his reputation enough to know that those who read this thread will realise that a tuner of his marque is not in the habit of ripping customers off. I personally have had help from Peter AND Rod Bell on previous occasions when i had my Skyline, and have no grudge against Peter, but Peter i think you have went way over the score with this thread. Those who know of and have used RB Motorsport, will know that Rod is probably one of the more honest and reputable tuners in the UK and i have actually yet to honestly hear one person who has used him say "man i was ripped off big time there!"

Not a lot of tuning companies can claim that. I have seen bad posts and negative comments wither fair or unfair about nearly every tuner on here at some time, but never Rod Bell. People seem quick to forget that and slate him for a correspondence aimed at Peters wife instead of Peter. What you should also remember is that there must have been a reason for this before it got to this stage......i personally wouldnt send an invoice to someones wife for no reason......but people make choices, Rod made his and its nothing to do with ANY OF US to say if he was right or wrong. 

I have found in business that its very difficult to get a good reputation, but jesus, one bad word about you and people ALWAYS remember the one bad thing. And how many folk have actually jumped on the bandwagon here and said Rod was wrong for what he did ? 
How many of you who have posted on this thread actually know Rod Bell ? How many have met him and found what a 100% genuine guy he is ? The guy takes time to actually talk to you about your car, explain things, sometimes (as in this case) does a LOT of work for people at a FRACTION of the cost other tuners would charge.Again all forgotten about by those who want to say "He was wrong......i would punch him on the nose......he was wrong......oh thats out of order.......blah blah yackity f*cking yack"

My main point however is......why is these are the people who will then phone him up and say "Oh Hi its ***** ***** here, i have a problem and was after some advice!"

What happened between Rod and Peter should ONLY have been made available for forum view if Peter had been genuinely aggreived, and personally i dont think he has, i think the treatment of Rod Bell on this thread for the guy that he is however is pathetic. 

And most of all.......unlike my thread about Abbey......why hasnt this thred been deleted ?

I personally think some people within power on here seem to pick and choose who they "like" seeing slated on here. Abbey paid a banner fee and sponsored this site, so my comment about them was deleted as soon as they bleated about it, but people disclose personal business info about business between them and Rod Bell, slating the guy to bits, and its left up........strange.

What would happen if RB Motorsport ploughed a grand a year into this site? Guarantee it wouldnt still be seen on here.

Seems like theres one rule for some and one for another.......sad thing is that because people have had a personal experience with a certain company they see fit to leave this thread open so more people can stick a knife in the back of an excellent and very helpful and professional individual !!

Pathetic. I wont be back.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

car1tref said:


> I feel you have done well and even if the whole thread is filled by cronies of the tuner QUOTE]
> 
> I resent that Trev, I work for myself and owe no allegiance to anyone bar my customers, I would rather of hoped you could look at some of the posts as the unbiased opinions of the people posting them rather than jump to the assumption that they were all "cronies of the tuner".
> 
> Senna ............ be there soon, cant wait


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

*CAUTION: This post contains humour*



Crail Loser said:


> I...owe no allegiance to anyone............ be there soon, cant wait


Yeah right, you bloody turnycoat


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

lol, good point Jason and well noticed  :smokin:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

A fair point Michael.

It is all well and good that Peter hides behind the "I never disclosed the identity of the tuner facade", but we all know these things get out.

Whether Peter has a genuine greivence or not isnt for us forum members to decide. Its personal business and should be kept that way.

Once an actual OUTCOME has been reached, then by all means say, "I dont think Rod is good because he sent a bill to my missus". Trouble is the only two people who actually know the whole story is Rod and Peter, and the rest of us just make assumptions. Its not fair to RBM and its not fair to Peter. And I will say it one last time. Its PERSONAL, and should REMAIN that way.

Im glad Im getting rid of mine if this is the way matters get discussed in the future. Roll on Driftworks.

J.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

*Classic.*

You almost made me laugh with that one James, almost. There you go again, bleating on about keeping things private. What's the definition of private in the your dictionary? Does it mean, between the two interested parties or does private mean between the two interested parties and their wives? What's more important to *you*, the feelings of your wife or the gamut of different opinions held on this forum?

You seem to resent this thread but you carry on 'contributing' to it, why don't you just let it die?

I am pleased you've sanctioned a further post once an "outcome" has been reached, that's big of you.

Over the past couple of days, I've been contemplating chucking the towel in over this sorry saga but it's people like you that inspire me to carry on here, you'll be ever so pleased to hear.... :smokin:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Last post from me Pete,

You have become a bitter and twisted soul of late mate. Unfortunately I just tell it how it is, whether thats right, wrong, good or bad is not of my doing.

The way it is.............

You own an expensive high powered car.
You take said car and over the course of I think four years (could be wrong though) you steadily modify it until it has about double the original power level
During those four years you take it to numerous track days and performance events and use it to its full potential
When it finally wants a rest and knocks an end out you act the victim and try finding someone to blame for your predicament
You get your new, much more powerful engine and have mods done to your drivetrain etc

All this time you get help from all the tuners, deals here, free advice there, etc etc especially Rod, who you have always rated very highly and spoken well of

Then through whatever misunderstanding your current situation develops and you come straight onto the forum and sound off about this terrible act.

Youre damn right I resent this thread.

I resent that you feel the need to bring such private matters here

I resent that you feel such a pompous overblown estimate of your own importance that you would think that we are interested in your inability to sort out your own correspondance

I resent that you somehow try to gain the "moral high ground" by insulting me, berating me, and then asking why I dont "Just let it die"

I resent the fact that you feel I "Bleat", when I felt I just gave my opinions in my own words. Apologies to you and anyone else I have offended, rest assured I will try to post here alot less now I know I have upset "the powers that be"

Mainly I resent the fact that you are a thorougly nice bloke in person, and turn into a world class nobber behind a keyboard when you have an axe to grind, and it makes me feel bad when I end up having to attack you when it was my last intention.

Go to bed ffs

YAWN.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Cool, now that one did make me laugh, well done... I feel like I'm really getting to know you now.

Right, at the risk of suffering yet another torrent of personal insults by abusing my position and closing this thread prematurely, does anybody have a problem with me closing this now?


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Not at all, please close it.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

do not close this thread

because R.B may want to put something on here yet.


Keith


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

bladerider said:


> You own an expensive high powered car.
> You take said car and over the course of I think four years (could be wrong though) you steadily modify it until it has about double the original power level
> During those four years you take it to numerous track days and performance events and use it to its full potential
> When it finally wants a rest and knocks an end out you act the victim and try finding someone to blame for your predicament
> ...


One hundred percent hit the nail well and truly squarely on its flat little head.

You made an error of judgement that has now shown people a very different side to you Peter, instead of arguing with people who obviously thought quite a lot of you up until this thread, why not just hold your hands up, admit it, and let your hackles down ? 

You may well feel aggreived by Rods actions, but your actions previous to that must have triggered this, but we have heard very little of the other side to the story so far which is obviously far too trivial for RB Motorsport to grind their axe over on a public forum. But you have lowered yourself from a much respected, informative member of this Forum, who has helped me on a few occasions now, to showing yourself to be someone who has basically thrown his Bob The Builder Hammer out the pram, and now its starting to cost you friends on here......that saddens me.

Your digging a hole so deep for yourself with this thread, that you will soon be far enough down to pop out the other end and you can pay that to55er Mario a visit !  

Michael


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Hold on a sec..

Not taking sides here but as far as I have been led to believe thus far:

1) Peter had work done on his car and was *quoted* a cost for said work (i.e. not an estimate) and based on this quote said work was authorised and carried out by RBM.

2) Job ended up costing >£400 more than quoted and customer not advised of this in advance and not given opportunity to agree to proceed based on this revised cost. In essence the work was carried out and the customer was billed the additional cost _after the event_.

3) Customer pays balance of original quote and queries additional cost several times and is not given any answer (emails & phone calls unanswered)

4) After 2 months of no communication between tuner and customer, customer's *wife* (who has absolutely nothing to do with the job whatsoever) receives invoice for additional cost while the customer is on holiday.

I don't think any of the above facts can be disputed can they?

Based on the above, and completely aside from how this matter was handled, I think these actions are well out of order. Not only was it questionable for the work to be carried out without customer authorisation for the additional cost (not everyone has bottomless pockets and £400 is a not inconsequential sum of money in context when the original quote was £1880), but mailing the outstanding invoice (_and_ previous paid invoices) to the customer's spouse is tantamount to bullying imho. I cannot fathom a single valid reason for why Peter's wife received an invoice addressed to *her* for work she likely had no knowledge of, on a car that she doesn't even own. 

If someone wants to grace me with a valid explanation for the above then I'd love to hear it because all I'm seeing on this thread at the moment is a smokescreen by people whom - be some bizarre coincidence - all reside in Scotland, who instead of addressing the facts of the matter seem intent on questioning a persons right to take issue with unfair treatment and personal attacks.

What the hell is how he drives his car got to do with _this specific event_? Absolutely nothing.

For the record I have nothing against RBM whatsoever and have heard only great things from them. Likewise I don't know Peter irl, I've never spoken to him in person and (to my knowledge) never met him.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

MichaelG said:


> ...now its starting to cost you friends on here......that saddens me.


 Don't lose any sleep over it Michael. I think you underestimate the type and number of friends I have on here and who they are mate. 

Anyway, no doubt the jungle drums have alerted any interested parties that I propose closing this thread today so in the absense of any objections, I'll do just that.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Oops, missed Keith's post... let me know please Keith.


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## danglebbits (Aug 31, 2004)

*note to all who have posted their "thoughts and opinions" on this*

remember opinions are like arseholes....................................





everybody has one.


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Durzel said:


> Hold on a sec..
> 
> Not taking sides here but....


Yeah so we see by your eagerness to back up one person of the two, when you have had all the correct details from who ?




Durzel said:


> If someone wants to grace me with a valid explanation for the above then I'd love to hear it because all I'm seeing on this thread at the moment is a smokescreen by people whom - be some bizarre coincidence - all reside in Scotland..........


 And anyone should grace YOU with an explanation WHY exactly ? Oh thats right......you dont have all the facts and that makes you so educated to say whats right and wrong on this thread......and the fact "we all" live in Scotland has exactly what to do with it ???? Maybe we talk to each other and find out whats happened rather than sit with a bucket of popcorn and a coke in front of a 14" monitor and make decisions on what we see posted from a so far one sided story unlike some ! If your going to hazard a "guess" to whats right and wrong and then voice that opinion, find out whats *actually* happened first......not what you have heard has happened......or read for that matter. 




Durzel said:


> For the record I have nothing against RBM whatsoever and have heard only great things from them. Likewise I don't know Peter irl, I've never spoken to him in person and (to my knowledge) never met him.


 And how many times have you met Rod Bell ? Or any of the guys from Scotland that you seem to think are in a witch hunt here ? But your quick enough to jump on the old bandwagon without actually knowing what your talking about. You just want your opinion heard so in the vain hope that folk will think "oh hes cool, remember when he said such and such....."

I as stated too have nothing against Peter, but REGARDLESS of what Rod did, and how Peter responded, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE, and people seem to be missing the point here that albeit have an opinion AFTER ITS been sorted, but NOT on a public forum unless both parties are quite happy for it !


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

I dont understand the people sticking up for RB here, apart from the fact almost all of them are part of the RB "crew", like Durzel said, the facts are there, and its out of order completley, tho not suprising in the UK car tuning industry... 

Unless Peter is lying, and cant see that really


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## tommyflan (Aug 14, 2003)

*dear peter*

was your quote/estimate written or verbal
would you have agreed the extra work yes/no
have you a problem with the quality of work carried out
and closer to home,hope your wife is well  
have a nice day
bye now


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

OK guys, that really is enough, nothing constructive is going come out of this now. I'm closing this now. 

Keith, 

Can you let me know if Rod wishes to contribute directly in which case I'll reopen it.


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## KeithP (Aug 23, 2004)

*dont understand the RB crew...*

Fit like, we **** a funcy language that nae one kens fit were ****'n abooot.   (tongue in cheek)

I am in business, totally unrelated to the motor industry, however, am I right in thinking that Peter was on holiday during the rebuild process? If that is correct :If a customer left me with a job under a strict timescale, I would have also carried out the said repair in the same manor that RBM has, done the job right with the right parts. Its hard to know what is the right thing to do in business a lot of the time, disturbing customers while on holiday or what would be worse if the box was left to one side till Peter returned and missed his trackday? 

Just my 2p worth.....

KP


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Bugger! 

KeithP, no, the rebuild was complete on Monday 21st June 2004.


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