# Does anyone know fure sure if they're making it?????



## Skyline_R34 (Jul 29, 2003)

Does anyone know if they'rr making it or not???


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

ok this must be one of those really out there threads, which I am just not in the know about.

Am I the only one thinking, "making what ?"


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## PMJ (Sep 11, 2001)

*It*

You know..... "IT".. you must know......every one else does...


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## Skyline_R34 (Jul 29, 2003)

I meant the R35


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## Skyline_R34 (Jul 29, 2003)

Sorry for the confusion.


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## slippyr4 (May 2, 2002)

er... the R35 has been in production for a couple years.

But there is no GT-R version of it.


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## Skyline_R34 (Jul 29, 2003)

oh.... ok Thanks for the info


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## Skyline_R34 (Jul 29, 2003)

thanks


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

slippyr4 said:


> *er... the R35 has been in production for a couple years.
> 
> But there is no GT-R version of it. *


The R35 does not exist. However the V35 Skyline does and so does the M35 Stagea...


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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

He means the R35 or V35 GT-R (they've dropped the R badge, right?). The model with 4-500bhp, V6 TT or V8 N/A, which is what everybody is waiting for and the real special car. I'm sure DCD knows we are talking about that  .

Well yeah, they are making it, although I have a lot about this car liked they stopped making it *which was just hearsay.*


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

The GTR will be, as seen from the concept photos, a totally different car not related to the Skyline at all. Therefore you will have the G35 Skyline with various engine models and most likely a Nismo tuned version too and a Nissan GTR, not a G35 GTR or an R35 GTR but a GTR no Skyline association at all. In fact it will be based off the Nissan 350Z platform just to confuse matters a little more. 

Matt


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

As far as I am aware all talk on this subject is still hearsay. Nissan has yet to release what the next GTR will definately look like, and its configuration and spec.

I think the surprise will be maintained until January or February next year.

As for the Skyline models. The R badge was to represent the Rb series of engines, which no longer comply with emmissions regulations, and as a result the new Vq series of V6 engines has been released, hence V35 Skyline.

J.


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

mattb said:


> *The GTR will be, as seen from the concept photos, a totally different car not related to the Skyline at all. Therefore you will have the G35 Skyline with various engine models and most likely a Nismo tuned version too and a Nissan GTR, not a G35 GTR or an R35 GTR but a GTR no Skyline association at all. In fact it will be based off the Nissan 350Z platform just to confuse matters a little more.
> 
> Matt *


The actual name of the platform being use on modern mid-sized (God I hate that American expresson! ) Nissans is the XVL. So the Skyline, 350Z, Stagea, Skyline Coupe, Munaro, the Infinity FX and even the next GTR will be based on this higly modifiable plaform.


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

FYI...
Was 'attempting' to read Best Car magazine this week and apparently Ghosn has said there will not be a new concept at this year's Tokyo Motorshow..damn


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

No way!!  

I'll have to go and check out BC...

Nice strategy they are going for at Nissan. Kill off their best sports car and don't replace it for at least 3 years. Yes very good, maybe if they wait for another year they will loose all of their potential costumers!!

Very disappointing news!


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

Bean said:


> *FYI...
> Was 'attempting' to read Best Car magazine this week and apparently Ghosn has said there will not be a new concept at this year's Tokyo Motorshow..damn  *


I guess it depends on how you read into it:

No New Concept at show = Production Version at show

Optimisitic, Yes, but not impossible. Nothing like a bit more speculation to keep things alive for a month or so until we know for sure! Bring on the Tokyo Motor Show!  

Cya O!


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

Gio, I must admit I didn't think about it in that way. You've definetly brought the smile back on my face  

(You Aussies are know for your optimism aren't you:smokin: )


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

What can you expect from Renault . If they dont get their act together soon then GTR owners are going to be seriously irritated. The concept looked horrible IMHO, typical Renault form over function. RB26 is dead and lets be fair it was a big factor in the making of the GTR, who wants some awful CAD designed engine that you can only get a couple more horsepower from when tuning. Stupid emmision laws, I mean just to show how stupid emissions and tax laws are in this country I get cheap road tax for my RX7 (not that I mind - its the only cheap thing about the damn car) and it probably produces 10x the emissions of a GTR. Its a depressing state of affairs the driver is getting murdered in this country.... ....I really have gone off topic here havent I....  

Anthony.


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## Demon Dave (Sep 15, 2002)

Let's hope Nissan have decided to bring us a production version of the new GTR to the Tokyo motorshow and not just another concept that's gonna keep everyone guessing as to what the final production car will be like...


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## Skyline_R34 (Jul 29, 2003)

Demon Dave said:


> *Let's hope Nissan have decided to bring us a production version of the new GTR to the Tokyo motorshow and not just another concept that's gonna keep everyone guessing as to what the final production car will be like... *


 yeh, i know. it really ****es me off


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

Bean said:


> *FYI...
> Was 'attempting' to read Best Car magazine this week and apparently Ghosn has said there will not be a new concept at this year's Tokyo Motorshow..damn  *


I did make a mistake after all. After a quick kanji check it appears Ghosn said that there will not be a production ready version of the next GT-R shown at the Tokyo Motorshow this year; he did not mention a new concept though....


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## Trevor (Jul 2, 2002)

*Technology could make the new engine even better!*

I think all the talk about the RB26DETT failing to pass emissions is absolute rubbish. Any engine can be re-engineered to pass very strict emissions controls. In the US they have even managed to get the old 1980's engined Porsche 959 to pass strict emissions tests by adding the modern day porsche emissions technology to the old engine.

I think they (Renault) didn't want to have so many different engines for cost reasons - they decided to kill off the old RB series because they wanted to keep the more modern V6 configuration of the VQ engine series. 

As long as the block is re-designed in the style of a 'N1 strengthening' mould then it should be perfectally possible to get 1000 hp even out of a VQ35DETT configuration. I really hope that Nissans engineers surprise everyone and add modern technology like ecu reprogrammable continously variable cam lobe profiles (e.g. like Porsches Variocam timing system) and also direct in- cylinder very high pressure petrol injection (15% more power and more fuel efficient), rev range variable valve programmable exhaust. Already this would mean tuning would simply not require all the crap we have to do these days like replacement exhausts, uprated fuel pumps and new cams. 

Big Power upgrades? They could all be done at the helm of a laptop computer - this would make tuning much cheaper too!

Here's hoping....

T


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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

Dave, yeah, I hope they show the production version so that all the rumours and uncertainty come to an end.

AJ, I believe you kinda kept to the topic (it, or at least I think, has relevance to do with the R34 being killed off/V35 coming back etc, and I couldn't agree more with you on the emissions front - I hate that issue, only good thing is that it brings innovation to the market and is a hindering element to the power of cars <<< too much will hurt you/the car, but then both of these factors can be eliminated without the need of stupidly strict emissions laws). I appreciate there being laws against emissions ratings as it is for your/my benefit (health), but too strict holds the power back, and makes carmakers struggle with making performance cars.

Trevor, there were a lot of factors in the killing of the RB line (mentioned here). Emissions, Nissan wanting a new engine with the new technological developments made in the industry, parts sharing (linking in with the new factor)cost factor (economies of scale) (like you said), and a lot more.


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## Rich C (Feb 16, 2003)

AJFleming said:


> *What can you expect from Renault .
> Anthony. *


Renault? Renault don't own Nissan and no matter what the uniformed Mr. Clarkson says Renault don't design Nissan cars either.

The next GTR will be stunning!


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## Trevor (Jul 2, 2002)

Renault own 44.4% of Nissan. 
Nissan own 15% of Renault.

At the time it was billed as a strategic parternship. 

Renault have owned 36%+ of Nissan ever since 1999 but increased their ownership to its curent level in around March of 2002. Basically Renault own almost half of Nissan which must give the board of directors quite a bit of 'say' in what Nissan does with its R&D budget and what products it decides to build.

The worry was that the GT-R was taken away from Japan and brought over to Europe - This decision however was overturned quite late in the day (for whatever reasons) and control of the project was handed back to Japan. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the stalling of the release date for the new car.

I think it will be a VQ35DETT engine with high pressure direct in cylinder petrol injection and continuously adjustible variable cam timing with around 400bhp. I think the turbo's could be special items with electric spool up assistance at the start of the rev range to virtually eliminate lag. If these technical challanges are being worked on it will be one heck of a car!

T


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## Rich C (Feb 16, 2003)

Trevor said:


> *Renault own 44.4% of Nissan.
> Nissan own 15% of Renault.
> 
> 
> ...


This is very interesting information. When you say "Europe" do you mean TCR or NTCE?

Perhaps or maybe there are other reasons?


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

When a company owns the majority share (such as Renault do with Nissan) then it is technically the majority ruling of the company as that company basically has the say to overtrun most of the other shareholders, so in a way Renault own Nissan - in a way they dont, just as Ford have the majority share in Mazda.
Dont worry I am optimistic that the next GTR will be an awesome beast!

Anthony.


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## Rich C (Feb 16, 2003)

Sorry to be pedantic but if as Trevor quite rightly says:

Renault own 44.4% of Nissan. 
Nissan own 15% of Renault

Nissan own the majority share of Nissan (just)
And Renault own the majority share of Renault

Nissan and Renault have very different identities that will stay that way unlike some of the major Automotive players that seem intent of producing clones based on common parts.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I hope so my friend.... ....for all our sake!!  

I agree though Clarkson is a tw*t and just talks nonsense, he has very little taste I am afraid.


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## Trevor (Jul 2, 2002)

Its a "corporate partnership agreement" between Nissan and Renault. The partership was formed to promote joint strategies and create new synergies in the areas of product planning, design, manufacturing, engineering, purchasing and distribution. 

The Nissan Renault partnership created the fourth largest auto manufacturing group in the world with a 9.1% share of the global market.

Basically if they can cut costs out of the business by using economies of scale and part sharing they will.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Wasnt it also because Nissan was in a dire financial situation?

Anthony.


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## Trevor (Jul 2, 2002)

Basically yes, remember back in March of 1999 !

"The consolidation of the global automotive industry continued March 16 when executives of France's Renault S.A. authorized an offer valued at about $4 billion for roughly 35 percent of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. as well as a significant stake in its diesel truck affiliate. Nissan President Yoshikazu Hanawa had made it clear in the past few months that Japan's number-two car and truck manufacturer — saddled with at least ¥2 trillion ($16.7 billion at ¥120=$1.00) in interest-bearing debts — was looking for a white knight. The novelty of a top Japanese industrial concern publicly courting a suitor was heightened by the fact that the potential rescuers were all foreign companies. While experts debate whether Renault's bid for Nissan will be a boon or a bane for the two vehicle makers, the proposed deal has focused attention on Japanese accounting practices.

Renault's bid raised eyebrows around the world — not only because it is a French firm and Nissan's financial problems are serious, but also because another major automotive concern had backed away from such a deal just days earlier. As executives from DaimlerChrysler AG held preliminary talks with their Nissan counterparts, company accountants poured over Nissan's books in an effort to get a clear picture of its true financial situation. Although DaimlerChrysler and Nissan officials have refused to comment on their discussions, the media ran stories that the German-American firm could not pin an exact number on Nissan's overall debts or measure its exposure to other financial liabilities.

Because Japanese accounting rules and practices differ from those in the United States and in Europe, DaimlerChrysler analysts reported that Nissan's debts amounted to at least the ¥2 trillion ($16.7 billion) claimed by Nissan but could be as much as twice that amount if pension liabilities and debt guarantees extended to Nissan affiliates were included. Although Daimler-Chrysler is occupied with melding its German and American operations and so may have judged it unwise to add Nissan to its plate at this time, the lack of clear and credible financial data on the Japanese company likely was a more important consideration in DaimlerChrysler's decision to break off talks."


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

The GTR project is run by Japanese people and they are the ones that call the shots. Most of the key people involved have been involved in the previous GTR projects so we are in safe hands.

You can view the Renault-Nissan collaboration from any angle that you want but in my view it can only be a good thing as Nissan is back in profit and that means that more money can be spent in making small-volume projects like the next GTR the best they can be. That to me is the positve aspect of seeing the french flag at Nissan HQ. If this also means that Nissan has reorganized its whole car line up and is now making some seriously good & profitable cars then that's a bonus. 

Its ALL good   

(BTW...I also thnk JC is a big lanky [email protected] They guy has made a career out of criticizing everything and trying so hard to be funny. All you have to do to get confirmation of this is to watch his review of the 350Z from earlier on this year. What a d1ck! )


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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

DCD said:


> *The GTR project is run by Japanese people and they are the ones that call the shots. Most of the key people involved have been involved in the previous GTR projects so we are in safe hands.
> 
> You can view the Renault-Nissan collaboration from any angle that you want but in my view it can only be a good thing as Nissan is back in profit and that means that more money can be spent in making small-volume projects like the next GTR the best they can be. That to me is the positve aspect of seeing the french flag at Nissan HQ. If this also means that Nissan has reorganized its whole car line up and is now making some seriously good & profitable cars then that's a bonus.
> 
> ...


Hey DCD, I've seen your posts in a lot of places - FreshAlloy, SkylinesDownUnder (I'm not a member at either site/forum, though).

I couldn't agree more with what you said.

If Renault had influence in the GT-R project, past, present (V35), or future, then the car would flop because I doubt the French/Renault know anything about making a Porsche 911-rivalling supercar.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I dunno, the A610 wasnt too bad.

And Renault have been making cars an awful lot longer than Porsche, Nissan or any other Japanese manufacturer for that matter.

As far as I am aware Renault have won more F1 titles than Honda, Toyota or Yamaha and the french have consistantly kept the japanese at bay in most forms of motorsport.

The japs may be good at alot of things, but so are alot of other people when it comes to the auto world.

J.


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

I owned a Renault Clio once, under engineered heap of junk would be an apt description.

I've just spent the summer working at Ford and one of the finance guys i was in the same devision as was at Nissan prior to the Renault deal. According to him a large factor in Nissans problem was they didnt accept or face up to them quick enough. They were all too happy to bimble along with the attitude - "we're massive, theres no way we can go down", but they came damn close and that realisation has made them far stronger with the added benefit of hindsight always being 20/20.

Lets hope Renault have nothing to do with the styling of the next GTR or we can be guaranteed it'll be absolutely disgusting - eg the new megane, what the hell were they smoking when that shit got scribbled out!?!?!


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

Hey guys, this is the latest news on the new GT-R in an Australian mag. Dont know if this is anything new to you guys, but here it is.










hope i got this pic in.


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

Oops! sorry guys, dont know how to post a picture on here. 
Is there anybody i can send this through by e-mail so that they can post it on here?

Thanks.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

> As far as I am aware Renault have won more F1 titles than Honda, Toyota or Yamaha and the french have consistantly kept the japanese at bay in most forms of motorsport.


Try owning a few James! They are not very well made! They are made as cheaply as possible and it shows, we have loads of problems at the garage with nearly new ones (1-3 years old) after that they dont seem to be too bad but honestly after living in the world of Jap cars for a while you get spoilt by superb reliability etc. (well maybe you dont, what with blowing up engines etc.   )
You at pod oct 12th James?

Anthony.


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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

R32_GODZILLA said:


> *Hey guys, this is the latest news on the new GT-R in an Australian mag. Dont know if this is anything new to you guys, but here it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that the article from the Wheels magazine? Nice looking car (although CG).


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

LSR

I have the Wheels mag of the CG GT-R, but this is not the 1 im talking about.
The one im talking about comes from Motor magazine, ive had this scanned, its an article on the new GT-R, it also has a picture of an engine (i think a VQ32DETT) that nissan is secretly testing in the R34 JGTC Racer.
Its a really good read.
Is there anybody i can send this too to post it up here?

Thanks.


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

Ok. I cant post the picture up, so ill write down the article about the GT-R.

BITURBO V6 FOR V35 GT-R:
The next V35 GT-R supercar won't be a V8. But dont worry. GT-R product planning manager Hiroshi Tamura hinted recently that his team is aiming to produce "a car which can rival the porsche 911 Turbo in performance and handling."
The V35 GT-R will run a twin-turbo 3.2 litre V6, developing an estimated 330kw (dont know conversion to HP) and putting its power down through an updated ATESSA all-wheel drive system.
The next GT-R's chassis is a combination of a super-rigid aluminium spaceframe and lightweight steel exterior panels. And the Nissan boss Carlos Ghosn recently hinted, "We can expect to see some radical good-looking styling that will impress even the most hardcore critics." 
Nissan has been secretly testing the new engine in domestic touring car racing. Sources admit that JGTC racer's engine is mechanically true to the V35, including the dry sump and the engine's extremely low mounting in the bay.

then theres an extra bit

GT-R MAN MOUTHS OFF:
Any comments on the GT-R story corrections? Project manager Tamura is a tough guy to deal with, very cagey, but he did say that nissan will be building the next model and "no one else!"
He did sound pretty upbeat, however, about the GT-R getting 330kw plus. But he did confirm that it would NOT be a V8. Oh yes, one other thing. He said engine powering the next car would be a specially designed unit, conceived specifically for the GT-R. But he has had his hurdles to clear in the process - probably why nissan is taking its time to sign off the final pakage. Every now and then, executives including Carlos Ghosn drop by Tamura's design studio to give their penny's worth of input, hence slowing things down. He didnt say it in as many words, but you get the impression Tamura and his Japanese team see the next GT-R in a rather different way from what the French (Renult) side envisage.
One things for sure: we have something to look forward to.

This is the latest news in an aus mag right now i think. i hope you like it, this sounds good to me.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)




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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

Yep. Sounds good.

As for the Renault comment(s), the only good performance car they made was the Alpine (or at least that is my perception, not a calculated one at that, either), or was that the A610?

All this information makes me less and less cynical in terms of the engine choice, split of Skyline and GT-R name etc.

As for posting pics R32, you need to upload them to somewhere like Yahoo! Briefcase, and link to the picture (remote) from here, with the







coding.


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

gt-r article 

Ok, i hope this works. Its not a picture of the new GT-R but it has a picture of what looks like the engine that will be used in the new GT-R being (secretly) tested out in one of the JTGC Racer's.


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

Damn, its not working! i dont know why!!


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## R32_GODZILLA (Sep 24, 2003)

OK. i finally figured it out...lol 

go here and you should find the pic in my breifcase under My Documents.

http://au.f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/r32_godzilla2003


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## Trevor (Jul 2, 2002)

*The new GT-R pictures...*

Recent Nissan GT-R rumors:










Power: 480ps (352kw!) @ 7200rpm 
Torque: 58kg/m @ 4800rpm 

The GT-R concept has been finalized. The new car will target the 911 Turbo as its primary competitor. The new GT-R will feature a VQ32DETT Twin-Turbo V6 engine. Estimated output will be over 480ps and over 420 lb/ft of torque  . 

In addition, it will also feature the improve active AWD system. The engine will be developed by a joint venture of Nissan and Cosworth. The new turbo system will feature a electronic Anti-Lag-system. Which means the turbine will be driven by an electic-powered motor when the thottle is lifted. The new chassis will be a brand new one (code: FR-L), which is composed of steel and Aluminum alloy. Suspension will be taken from the current Skyline (G35) with certain improvements made. 

Estimated to be in the market in spring 2005, with a price tag of over $80K.

GT-R Engine: VQ32DETT V6 Twin-Turbo, featuring colaboration with Cosworth Technology for ;

. Direct in-cylinder petrol injection technology
. Variable valvetrain technology
. Displacement on demand technology
. Aluminium cast engine block

Garrett are said to have helped design the turbine anti-lag system using electronic assistance

. Turbine anti-lag system










Direct injection of fuel at high pressure into each cylinder 
gives the maximum control of engine performance with the elimination of bulky intake manifolds and their assorted fixtures. These systems require precise sensors and control by an electronic computer which in turn leads to large improvements in engine performance.

The new engine's expected to use Cosworth designs for high-pressure direct injection system, variable valvetrain technology and could even feature the revolutionary ‘displacement on demand’ to meet strict emissions regulations. 

Aluminium castings for the engine will be produced at the Cosworth foundry (in Worcester), to be shipped out to the facility.

Customers use Cosworth Technology’s foundry service because it owns a process that promises a very high level of dimensional accuracy. The use of Zircon sand brings with it linear and low thermal expansion properties superior to those of conventional Silica. It also has the benefit of a similar bulk density to that of aluminium, limiting core buoyancy problems. "We can therefore eliminate the need for core supports, but it also means that we can use less glue in our sand packs, reducing the potential for gas-porosity," explains Struthers. 

Cores aside, the real key to the quality of the castings is the delivery of the molten material. Oxide nucleaic porosity is endemic to gravity casting and not uncommon in other low pressure techniques. The Cosworth process, (which Cosworth Technology licenses to other manufacturers) employs a melting methodology (the primary component of which are enormous, constant volumes of molten metal undergoing long residency in the vat) that ensures aluminium is drawn from a very clean zone in the middle of the melt. 

While not cheap, the process is considered the most cost-effective method to create the superior product required by some vehicle programmes. "A lot of the applications that we get involved with are on the edge of what the material can give, but using this process we can give the designers what they have designed," concludes Struthers.










Picture of how Anti-lag System for turbines work (in theory!)



















If even half of these rumours are true it should be an excellent car!


Trev


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Well if all that is correct - that looks fantastic! Well done Nissan!

Anthony.


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## Trevor (Jul 2, 2002)

Whatever the power output, 480 even 580, I just hope they realise that they need to allow scope for more tuning margin so people (nismo?) can still squeeze out even more power if they want. 

If tuners cannot get similar power outputs from this VQ32DETT engine as they did for the RB engine it will be seen as an inferior engine regardless of whether its smoother, more efficient, etc.

T


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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

Trevor said:


> *Whatever the power output, 480 even 580, I just hope they realise that they need to allow scope for more tuning margin so people (nismo?) can still squeeze out even more power if they want.
> 
> If tuners cannot get similar power outputs from this VQ32DETT engine as they did for the RB engine it will be seen as an inferior engine regardless of whether its smoother, more efficient, etc.
> 
> T *


Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head about an issue that we are all concerned about (engine choice, ease of tuneability). But then a V6 TT can be just as tuneable as an I6 TT - there are some very tuneable V6s - 3000GT/GTO TT, NSX (ok, not VERY tuneable), old American cars (Glen posted a 1000bhp V6 80s American car). Nissan might still use a V8 - for the USA market, if this car will be available there, as it is harder for a TT car to meet emissions regs, than a Naturally Aspirated car (although they did get the 911TT, and Murcielago, which I think is TT).

And that information is true. Some of it has been posted elsewhere, and I believe it stems from Nissan. The anti-lag concept is completely true (and innovative on Nissan's and Garrett's behalf).


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Lots of good points.

NSX engines can be tuneable, but its the fact that they are mid engined that makes things tricky. If you turbocharge them then the heat cannot be easily dissapated as there is not vast quantities of air getting to the engines. Murcielago is normally aspirated by the way.

V6's dont tend to be as strong as straights either. GTO TT engine tends to blow up and is incredibly expensive to repair, same with the 300zx.

We shall see though - time will tell.
For a road car though, you dont really need more than 600 easily accessable horseys though do you? 

Cheers, Anthony.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

AJFleming said:


> *For a road car though, you dont really need more than 600 easily accessable horseys though do you?  *


Dunno mate.

You and me need a few more than most !!!      

J..:smokin:


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## LSR (Jun 4, 2003)

NSX engines are not tuneable because of the lack of space, which yes does implicate the air being taken in by the engine and the heat dissipation (sp?) characteristics. This lack of space also effects cooling, as there isn't enough space for the turbines, or the cooling systems, which are imperative. But it is also because the engines are at their development limit (bottom end is for the stock hp output, high CR). And Honda didn't design the car for tuning.


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