# Considering a GTR, but is it too good?



## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Hi guys,

Not posted on here for a long time. I am in the market for a new car after owning the usual suspect Jap metal for over ten years (Evos, Scoobs, VR4s etc). 

As my car and driving experience has grown, so have my car needs and expectations. Initially I enjoyed a car that was a fast and capable as possible (for the money), and loved the AWD unshakable abilities of the Evo/Scoob etc. Once I got used to them, I started modding to get my thrills and the quest began for more power, even more unshakable grip and better handling. As I have matured, I've begun to appreciate the little delicacies of driving, and am starting to appreciate lighter weight, agility, feel, and noise as much as outright power, so those cars have become less fulfilling in my quest for driving Nirvanna.

I always assumed that the GTR would be my next step, but after driving one for 30 mins I'm not sure. This is where I need your help. After my initial, albeit short drive, I came away incredibly impressed with the car's abilities, power and poise, as the car felt literally effortless and invincible, but in that time the car didn't get under my skin like I'd hoped. I will use the car predominantly as a road car, so would unlikely be able to properly test its limits on the road, and I'm wondering if therein lies the problem is the GTR too good?

I'm an ok driver, but recognise that I'm no pro, and so for my abilities I felt almost that driving the GTR fast was too effortless and easy, too unchallenging? I have no doubt that the car is thrilling to drive, but I am worried that the thrill comes from the sheer speed that the car is able to achieve as opposed to the more intricate elements that define a great driver's car. What I want to know is if you think I will get bored of the car, and end up going back down the endless road of tuning to get my thrills, or if the GTR has the inherent qualities beyond sheer speed that will make every drive a pleasure?

As an alternative I am also considering a 997.2 GT3, which I have also driven. Immediately after the GTR the car feels slower, but during the short test drive, it did seem to deliver more of a visceral, tactile driving experience which the GTR lacked initially. The manual shift, the lack of mass, the high revving engine, low seating position and much smaller, chuckable feel of the car all served to be very rewarding, and all the write-ups say that it's something that you'll never tire of. It also felt more of a challenge to drive fast, and a little intimidating with the threat of that rear end waiting to bite - but that in itself was rewarding. Also, the GT3 felt more fun, more of the time even when driving within the speed limit and at lower speeds, which was nice. Is the GTR only fun when you're breaking the law? At the same time, after the GTR, once I got used to a GT3, would the GT3 end up feeling too slow and gutless?

I honestly don't know what to go for. If I buy the GTR, I am worried that it will suck me dry as I have an inherent tendency to tinker. There are so many tuning options available for the car for both performance and cosmetics will I be constantly enhancing' the car? 

Have any owners come from a GT3 to GTR or vice versa? Which will be the better long-term ownership proposition to keep me engaged and entertained for many years?

Any thoughts, experience or opinions would be gratefully received.

Cheers,

Mart.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Turn away before it's too late! :chuckle:

Once you've had one they get under your skin as nothing comes close. (IMO)

Too good for the road, probably.
You will get more "feel" at lower speeds in a worse car.
The GT-R is amazingly capable, they do suffer with tuning culture so you are pretty certain to end up spending £££. It just seems natural...


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

CT17 said:


> Turn away before it's too late! :chuckle:
> 
> Once you've had one they get under your skin as nothing comes close. (IMO)
> 
> ...


Agree with every word, once you have gone to a GTR there is no way back , and tuning is fairly cheap and very rewarding. There are better track cars (lighter) and better road cars (slower), but all in all nothing beats it IMO.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks for your initial comments.

You both say that nothing comes close, or beats it, but in which regard?

I'm not looking for the fastest car on the road, rather I want the most rewarding/involving and fun car that will keep me engaged for many years. Just going fast isn't enough for me anymore, I want the whole package! 

Is that the GTR?


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Nothing comes close in terms of performance you can use.

In my MY11 with 590bhp I can stand on the power half way round a roundabout. It grips and goes, even over the camber changes, giving amazing acceleration and leaving anyone who wants to play wondering where I went. You feel the electronics doing what they are designed to do. But ultimately the car is far more capable than the driver could be.

Ultimately you are trading some feel at lower speeds for outright ability provided by the electronics. It doesn't feel raw. If you want a car that feels raw I'd suggest something lighter and with less driver aids that will entertain at lower speeds. Just don't expect it to keep up with a GT-R.

On a twisty bit of road the GT-R is fun, although it isn't raw, because you are trying to get 1800kg round corners at speed. Which even with a bit of help from the car is entertaining. But you have to be doing a bit of speed to get that feeling.

From your two posts so far I'd suggest you are not looking for a car like the GT-R. More one you can grap hold of by the scruff of the neck and have some fun while feeling more connected to the road. Just my opinion of course. 

It is an amazing car that even now leaves me flabergasted at it's ability. It shouldn't go so well in so many different situations.
But if I wanted slower thrills and more feeling I'd buy something else.


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## Nocturnal (Nov 5, 2004)

I can understand what you are saying as I have moved over from an 700bhp R32 GTR to an R35.
It does feel extremely easy to drive, and it is a very good car to live with on a daily basis.
It even provide great gas milage on long motorway journey... 

The down side on a standard R35 is that it does feel too civilize, and it doesn't give you that smile until you look at the speedo and gawk.

While designing our exhaust, that change that a bit.
The added noise you feel a bit more connected with the car and you have more feedback.
But it will take a while to get used to the car because it is different from other car you have driven before.

It is like when you go from your normal car to someone else car with heavy brake servo assistant (In my case it is the in-law MK4 VW Golf).
The first few time you step on the brake, it will send you head into the dash.
But after a while you will get use to the sensitivity and will be able to drive the car the want you want to drive it.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Well for me the GTR is a great all rounder, I not the best. Not too expensive to begin with. Great road car, great gt car and great track car. 

As with all the scoobies and evos the biggest issue is compromise. Give up x to get more power. Give up y for better handling. No need for that with the GTR. 

I have a 2010 car, started life with 500bhp and was very quiet. Then came 600bhp not expensive at all. And more noise. Personally I don't believe you will ever find an exact match in a production car hence why we tune our cars. And the GTR is so capable at that as well...

The GTR seems to spoil the rest of the market because of how much you get for your money. No other manufacturer comes close IMO.


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## Tinoush (Oct 26, 2009)

did you ever drive a r34 gtr?
maby that is what you are looking for.


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## Sinth (Sep 26, 2010)

Having bought a GTR a few days ago after driving around in an E46 M3 Coupe for 3 yrs, the car personally for me has lived up to my expectations. 

BUT

I do agree with the OP in some respects with the GTR being too much of a car for our little roads. I took my cousin out a few days ago on a little test drive to see what he thought ( he was a passenger) and he has the wrong M3 being the E46 M3 convertible. First thing he told me was that the car didnt feel fast and lacked something . He obviously knew the car was seriously rapid but that was only by looking at the speedo and that his E46 M3 felt faster and more raw. 

I simply put it to the fact that the M3 being a car which is NA and having a high revving engine. Also being an older car with less refinement. Although I havent had the chance to test the GTR to its limits yet , I feel that my E46 M3 coupe was more chuckable but then again I thought same about my old EP3 Type R which was basically a go kart for the road .


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Sounds like you should buy an mx5, perhaps turbocharge it.


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

I remember a guy had a similar problem last year, he owned a GTR and test drove a Maserati and ended up falling in love with the Maserati for it's passionate. Something like that anyway.

Ferrari might be the option for you.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

grahamc said:


> Well for me the GTR is a great all rounder, I not the best. Not too expensive to begin with. Great road car, great gt car and great track car.
> 
> As with all the scoobies and evos the biggest issue is compromise. Give up x to get more power. Give up y for better handling. No need for that with the GTR.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I agree, and that's why my decision is so difficult. It's hard to reject a car that's so damn competent in so many areas, for such a bargain price. On paper it's the perfect car, but Im still unsure if I will find it uninvolving compared to the GT3, once the novelty of speed has worn off? 

It will only be a weekend car, so reward and involvement are the biggest criteria for me. It has to be an event every time I drive it, at any speed and be something that I won't get bore of too quickly. I hate changing my cars too frequently as I always get attached! 

Still, can't help lusting after the car though! I know it might not be right for me but for the money it's hard to argue. 

I'm trying to look at things rationally, but perhaps that's the problem!

Great replies fellaz, keep 'em coming.

Mart.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Caveman said:


> Thanks, I agree, and that's why my decision is so difficult. It's hard to reject a car that's so damn competent in so many areas, for such a bargain price. On paper it's the perfect car, but Im still unsure if I will find it uninvolving compared to the GT3, once the novelty of speed has worn off?
> 
> It will only be a weekend car, so reward and involvement are the biggest criteria for me. It has to be an event every time I drive it, at any speed and be something that I won't get bore of too quickly. I hate changing my cars too frequently as I always get attached!
> 
> ...


There's a couple of us that come from modded scooby backgrounds. I had 400bhp one. But hated driving it because it was stripped, caged and semi slicks.

I am coming up to 1 year of GTR ownership and the thrill has not worn off yet. Love driving the car more today than when I bought it, but I knew I wanted after 10 seconds of the test drive. 

As mentioned above, maybe something like a ferrari would be more suitable? Maybe a test drive is in order... 

The GTR is a beast but only because it's so good and so capable. Maybe rwd is more to your liking??


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## SteveRaspberry (Mar 14, 2012)

Obviously, if you do decide on the GT-R, Mines for sale at the minute! Sorry for the slight thread hi-jack :-( 

2012 Daytona Blue Recaro edition - 3900 miles £64995 ono ;-)


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## Gavinsan (May 28, 2012)

Hi Mart i have not owned a gtr but 911's for the last 10 years , so i guess on a gtr forum i may offer a slightly less biased view. Although i have not owned a gt3 as felt they were a little to extreme for daily driver i have spent a fair amount of time in various models 996 , 997 gen 1 on track and have to say they are a hugely rewarding steer with incredible feedback and put a huge smile on your face when driving! 
The gtr i test drove recently and was deeply impressed with the package and performance accesability considering the price. However the 4 wheel drive and weight are always going to give a slightly less informative feel at slower speed and there is definite playstation feel to how easy it is to go silly speeds. As you say if it is a weekend car and a challenging drive that you require then in my opinion the gt3 would be an excellent choice and very rewarding. They also dont depreciate as badly as the other models if you buy wisely . Great position to be in as they are both fantastic cars to own and enjoy.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Sounds like the GT3 is by far the best choice for you Mart based on what you say.


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## Tinoush (Oct 26, 2009)

Caveman said:


> It has to be an event every time I drive it, at any speed and be something that I won't get bore of too quickly.
> 
> Mart.


i never drove a r35 but there is not one single time that i have driven my gtr and not loking 3 times back and smiling on their way to home. <3 <3 :bowdown1:
oh and be ready for all dose heads following you. you don't get that kind of attention with a porsche.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

I was put off Porsche by the sales people - utter prats!! So what if I I arrived in jeans tshirt and flip flops. Aston sales people are great and the vantage S was fun but depeeciation put me off. 

Never test drove the fezza.....


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Either way I won't be buying new, so the attitude of sales staff won't affect me.

Not a Fezza man myself, never liked them and find them too much like jewellery to ever appeal as proper driver's cars.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Caveman said:


> Either way I won't be buying new, so the attitude of sales staff won't affect me.
> 
> Not a Fezza man myself, never liked them and find them too much like jewellery to ever appeal as proper driver's cars.


Each to their own. Personally I would go fezza over Porsche everytime. Porsche is a glorified beetle


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

grahamc said:


> Each to their own. Personally I would go fezza over Porsche everytime. Porsche is a glorified beetle


That's what makes the world such an interesting place - would be boring if we all had the same opinions!


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Caveman said:


> That's what makes the world such an interesting place - would be boring if we all had the same opinions!


Exactly! But must admit that I do like the 993


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Have to say, I do like the look of this... 

ADV.1 Porsche 997 GT3 Turbo | Flickr - Photo Sharing!


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## TriQe (Oct 24, 2011)

my 2 pence worth - ive had both an E36 and an E46 M3 and went from a scooby (lightly tuned) to the GTR which ive had since october last year.

I would have tended to agree about the slightly uninvolving drive from the GTR - it seems somehow remote.

but then last weekend i got my y-pipe changed - I seriously cannot overexpress how much of a difference it made.

So my suggestion is to try the GTR again with a proper exhaust / y pipe on it, (and don't use auto, only manual) and then see what you think..


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Cool, that would be nice to try. I actually WANT to want the GTR as I've always loved them and it makes so much sense on paper. I love how they look too, like nothing else. I just don't want a car that I will quickly get bored of and find fault in. I spend so much of my time, and money, trying to perfect what I see as a flawed car in some way, that I never get to enjoy a car for what it is. It would be nice to find a car that I just love to drive, and don't get bored of after the honeymoon period wears off.


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

What is your budget?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

FLYNN said:


> What is your budget?


£80k tops.

Has to be able to accommodate rear child seats hence the limited options available.

Mart.


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

Caveman said:


> £80k tops.
> 
> Has to be able to accommodate rear child seats hence the limited options available.
> 
> Mart.


 That's a good budget. I think i've seen a DBS going for that on the auto trader.


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

If you a wanting something quick and reasonably practical for the kid, then the GTR is the one for you. I can get 4 adults and 4 sets of golf clubs in mine. Its a squeeze, but everything fits in. I also go to makro now and again to pick up beer/wine etc... I got 14 boxes in the back last week.

You couldnt do that in the GT3...............................and not forgetting, you'll look like a c**t


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Very true.... GTR boot is huge. Back seats are only good for people with no legs.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

KingOfTheGT-R said:


> That's a good budget. I think i've seen a DBS going for that on the auto trader.


Bit too GT and ostentatious for me, and a bit rich in terms of running costs, I did consider one. I'm not looking for automotive jewellery, rather a 100% balls-out drivers car, hence the GTR or GT3. Nothing else does it that I can see and yet offers room in the back for child seats when needed (albeit occasionally).


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## TriQe (Oct 24, 2011)

or midgets.


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

FLYNN said:


> If you a wanting something quick and reasonably practical for the kid, then the GTR is the one for you. I can get 4 adults and 4 sets of golf clubs in mine. Its a squeeze, but everything fits in. I also go to makro now and again to pick up beer/wine etc... I got 14 boxes in the back last week.
> 
> You couldnt do that in the GT3...............................and not forgetting, you'll look like a c**t


 Slightly harsh? The GT3 much like the 997 Turbo is one hell of a beast and definitely deserves respect. 

I personally like the porka badge too:blahblah:


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

Caveman said:


> £80k tops.
> 
> Has to be able to accommodate rear child seats hence the limited options available.
> 
> Mart.


At that budget it opens up a world of options  I would double check the rear seats requirement as I believe the rear seats in the 911 (997) is even smaller than in the GTR lol. Not to say you get less luggage space (if that matter to you at all?)

MY12 GTR would be a good choice. Leave you with some spare cash to get nice mods inc such as titanium exhausts :smokin: I always think the stock GTR sounds a bit muted for what it is...

edit: Have you considered the Jaaaaag? XKR-S to be specific :










or a Maser? This car certainly has the sense of occasion!


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

Caveman said:


> Bit too GT and ostentatious for me, and a bit rich in terms of running costs, I did consider one. I'm not looking for automotive jewellery, rather a 100% balls-out drivers car, hence the GTR or GT3. Nothing else does it that I can see and yet offers room in the back for child seats when needed (albeit occasionally).


 I know you said you don't like it bt it sounds to me like your describing the Ferrari F430 Scuderia. Complete drivers car or maybe a Noble M600? But they are a bugger to get hold of.


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## fozi.g (Sep 3, 2007)

I had a similar experience almost 2 years ago. I was in the market for a capable all rounder. I looked at all the usual suspects, 997 Turbo, R8 etc. I found when i drove thr GTR it felt soul less and a little uninspiring to drive. Admittedly a very capable car, it just didn't get me as excited as I thought it would. One word.....Y pipe. It makes such a difference to the sound which in turn makes a huge difference to the way the car feels. Previously I would be driving quick in the car but it wouldnt feel like i was. After the Y pipe it felt and sounded as fast as I was going....

this will ultimatley will lead to stage 1...2....3....:runaway:

Another thing you should do is go for a drive with an owner and not just out for a test drive. You wont get a true idea of how the car is unless your a passenger in a car thats been driven well. 

Finally 2 GTR's in and I couldnt think of a better car to own. its so docile You could use it everyday without issue but when you put the foot down it switches into a very capable supercar. 

if you take the plunge you won't regret it!!!


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

KingOfTheGT-R said:


> I know you said you don't like it bt it sounds to me like your describing the Ferrari F430 Scuderia. Complete drivers car or maybe a Noble M600? But they are a bugger to get hold of.


No rear belts/seats! Wife will only let me 'waste' that much money if I can actually use the car to 'go places' in with the family now and again. Otherwise it won't get enough use. She's right really.


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

Caveman said:


> No rear belts/seats! Wife will only let me 'waste' that much money if I can actually use the car to 'go places' in with the family now and again. Otherwise it won't get enough use. She's right really.


 Well happy wife happy life.

Have you thought about super saloons?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

KingOfTheGT-R said:


> Well happy wife happy life.
> 
> Have you thought about super saloons?


Yeah, but I want something more special, that has been designed out of the box to be a driver's car, as opposed to a performance model of a regular car.

I have a 560 horse RS6 Avant as our family car, so want something 'special' to have fun in at weekends, trips away, Le Mans etc.

I love the event of driving something a bit different, that always feels special, that's another reason why I like the GTR/GT3 - you don't see one every day.


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

How old is the wee one?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

sw20GTS said:


> edit: Have you considered the Jaaaaag? XKR-S to be specific :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Both big GT cars, and not focused drivers cars tbh - plus I don't want an auto! 

I've looked at all the options and I'm convinced that there are no other dedicated sports cars that offer the driver focus and thrills of the GTR/GT3, whilst being able to accommodate child seats in the back when required.

Aston Vantage - No rear seats

Aston DBS - Too fancy and GT for me

Audi R8 - No rear seats

Fezzas - Don't do it for me, sorry

Jag - Too GT, autobox only

Masers - Too GT, heavy, too showy, slow

Lotus - Not a fan

Lambo - Too expensive to run, would be an old Gallardo

Vettes - no rear seats, left hooker only


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

FLYNN said:


> How old is the wee one?


Little lad is 18 months and is already a confirmed Petrolhead. He's not saying much yet apart from "Broom Broom!" 

That's my boy!


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

I had the same problem, looked at the fezza 612, but didn't do it for me. GT3 wasn't as practical. GTR ticks all the boxes and it can do it on the track as well. I use mine as my daily drive


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Clearly you are not short of a few quid.

I'd say the best thing to do is rent one for a weekend.
Will probably cost £2k-3k, but much cheaper than buying and then feeling it's not right for you.

Much better than a test drive.


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## S14 (Jan 4, 2012)

Sounds like you already know which car you want and it isn't the GTR..Go and drive one for a decent amount of time and you may just change your mind..

Agree with the sentiments above about the sound, does sound a little tame stock, get a GTC titan system and you will not look back! The senses are somewhat numbed in a stock car and that sense of occasion you want will come if you drive the right one in the right way


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

After reading what you have said, I think the GT3 RS is the one for you. Of all the reviews i've read and watched on it the same thing is said "it's such a drivers car".

And they are rare.


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

How about a 997 GT2?


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

tin said:


> How about a 997 GT2?


Rear wheel drive :nervous:


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

FLYNN said:


> Rear wheel drive :nervous:


Won't that be even more...raw?


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

well then, surely "raw" is all about being on the edge, not knowing if you are going to make the corner or not...... the answer is simple 

Its economic:









You can go racing:









You are just never sure about making it through the corner!


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

Raw!?! Do you go on the MLR by any chance. 

I think the easiest way to decide between the two cars is three simple questions.

Do you wear sunglasses when you drive and then don't take them off when you go indoors?
Do you own more than two hair different products?
Do you look admiringly at yourself in mirrors when you walk past them?

If you answered yes to two or more, buy the Porsche.


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## KaizerMotor (Jan 14, 2010)

grahamc said:


> well then, surely "raw" is all about being on the edge, not knowing if you are going to make the corner or not...... the answer is simple


LOL, I could stop laughing thanks Graham :chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

I answered yes to all 3


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

grahamc said:


> I answered yes to all 3


 me too


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

grahamc said:


> I answered yes to all 3


If you got all 3 you need to sell up and buy a chrome Peugeot RCZ


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## B27il (Oct 29, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> Sounds like you should buy an mx5, perhaps turbocharge it.


Better You get the 3.5 supercharged Lotus Exige then reflash it to 400 bhp
It would be more 'driver car' than porky , even the gt3 RS IMO


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

FLYNN said:


> Rear wheel drive :nervous:


yes, but so is the GT3... bit more fun having the backend slide out:squintdan


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## Wozza (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi Caveman,

I have a R35, a background of Scoobies and 2 young kids.

I decided I wanted an R35 after being a member of Club GT for 2 years and getting to drive all of their cars. 

If i could have one car purely for fun, it would be an Audi R8 - superb underrated drivers car. But I have kids so went for my 2nd favourite - the GT-R.

Whilst in the club, I also spent a lot of time in a mate's 996 GT3 mk1. It is a great car but is TOO full on for me. It doesn't ever settle and you have to be in the mood the whole time with it - if i wasn't in the mood i found it irritating. The Audi R8 was similar pace to the GT3 but is a much better all rounder for me.

I got to do about 1200 miles in the club GT-R before deciding to buy one. It is easy to think it is too easy / too good until you get to spend quality time/miles with it on a good road / slippery conditions. Then you start to really tune in, get it moving about and feel you can drive it properly.

Having said that, not much space in Surrey for it really. I feel like I've only really properly unleashed it in Wales and Scotland.

Whereabouts in Surrey are you? I'm close to the A23 and would be happy to meet to show you my car a bit more and show you how the kids fit in! In return, would like a good look at your RS6 as I've been contemplating one of these or a Mercedes AMG estate....

Cheers, Marc


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Firstly, thanks for all the replies. I forgot what a great forum this is, what a lovely bunch of fellas. :thumbsup:

To answer a few of the comments, no I'm not loaded, just a car crazy fool who loves driving, and sacrifices luxuries elsewhere to somehow afford his motors. The new car will be £20k down and the rest finance with balloon, not ideal but the only way I will ever get to own a car like this.

GT2 I do like, but they are VERY rare and it's hard to find a very low mileage one which is what I want. You're also looking at an older car for that money which puts me off, whereas my other 2 options will be 2010 models.

Wozza - thx for the offer, I'm actually in Tring now, just haven't updated my profile. You're the second who's made the kind offer of showing me your car, very good of you mate, would be good to get some more honest experience from real owners.

I've noticed that no-one has really dismissed my initial observation that the GTR is almost too good at what it does, yet it must be involving in some way or else you wouldn't love driving them as much as you all do?

Perhaps I just need to drive one some more, ideally a modded one and see if it gets under my skin like I'd hoped. Maybe it just takes a little while...

Thx again for the feedback so far. I'm off to bed. 

Mart.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

What age GT-R are you looking at buying if you do?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

CT17 said:


> What age GT-R are you looking at buying if you do?


I was thinking about a MY10 car with less than 5k miles, for around £45k and then spend £15k on it to get it to 750 horses, which I understand is the limit of the standard internals. Hopefully that will be enough to keep me engaged for a long time? 

Mart.


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## EasyE (Aug 2, 2011)

I can only echo what others have said. I come from a M3 background, having several E46 models and initially I was slightly surprised at how the GT-R almost drove me around.

However...... I took the plunge on a MY10 over a year ago, mainly because I can't stand porkers and the GT-R just delivered SO much for the money. I was working with a smaller budget than you, so didn't have access to some of your options, but now, a year in, I can't imagine any car coming even close to the GT-R.

It puts a smile on my face every morning and I look forward to the drive home each day. As I have got more used to the car I have got a little braver and find myself pushing the car more and more and still not even scratching the surface of its potential. As others have mentioned the Y-Pipe is an essential upgrade and changes the feel of the car tremendously. 

The other massive plus for the GT-R is it's practicality. As others have mentioned it has a huge (ish) boot, and usable back seats (if the person is under 5'6" or so). On a run you can get around 28-30 mpg, if you can control the urge to floor it, which I cant.... The sound system is great, the satnav is very nice, it has all the gadgets you could want and is a very comfortable drive on a long run.

Lastly, the amount of attention the R35 gets is insane. I've parked up next to porkers and Fezzas and the GT-R always seems to pull more looks and questions - this might not be a positive, but for the posers amongst us it is a good feeling.

Get the GT-R, you can pick an amazing MY12 up for mid 60's, a very nice MY11 for low to mid 50's or a MY10 for mid 40's. With about 5k of mods the MY10 model is more than you could want from a car and I can't imagine anything getting close for under 50k.

Good luck with whatever you choose, but hope to see you driving a GT-R sometime in the near future!


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Problem is, I know what I'm like, and I've already been looking at what I would 'enhance' if I got one. My growing list is currently:

- Litchfield 750 conversion

- Litchfield coilovers

- Carbon boot, roof, bonnet, skirts and rear spoiler

- Carbon interior trim

- Carbon seats

- New wheels

You see! I'm a danger to myself, it's a slippery slope - where does it end!? :bawling:


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

It is a very slippery slope. I started smaller with the GTR and have refined my plans. 

Stage 1
Ypipe, intakes and remap takes to 590ish and really livens up the car

Stage 2
Fuel injectors, downpipes and remap a little more power but a bit safer and removes some heat

Stage 3
Brakes (must not forget these). I'm looking at ap discs and pads I'm not sure about yet

Stage 4
Wheels

I'm about to book the car in for stages 2&3. 

Turbos I might do later, but will see. 

You have said you are not interested in chasing power but you are already planning new turbos?!??! Why not drive the car and get used to it, learn to drive first? 600bhp+ on the road is a wild thing!!!

Oh yes and why the suspension change? Personally I would go for the springs like the KWs that keep the C,N and R switchable settings. You have hardly driven the car give it some time


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

That's my problem: I like to tinker, and I know if the possibility to get more power is there, I have to take advantage of it!

Hello everyone, my name is Martin and I'm an addict. 

That's why my rational side says GT3, cos I won't be able to tinker!


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Don't we all!! I'm trying to pace my GTR mods and when you realise how good a 600bhp GTR is maybe you won't want to tinker so much...

What did you test drive? A new one, 2010 model? Mines 2010 running 596, some exterior and interior carbon wrapping, ecutek'd, etc. 

As per pm happy to take you out in it now and after the mods in August. In fact I might be coming past you on Saturday returning from Santa pod to Surrey.

Pretty sure you can tinker with a Porsche. Might cost more, but you can tinker with any car!


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

I drove a 2010 car. I found the standard spring/damping combination quite poor for road use, it felt quite crashy over uneven surfaces, which I understand the new Litchfield/Bilstein setup rectifies. The setup is the only one of its kind that allows you to retain the standard 3-way damping settings:

Litchfield - Performance Car Excellence

If you're passing by this weekend would be good to meet up. PM me your number and we can chat.

Cheers,

Mart.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Have a read 
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/166636-lowering-springs.html

Will do


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Like you, I enjoy using a clutch, proper heel & toe & double de-clutching, lack of electronics with only my foot as traction control, after all - traction isn't always necessarily wanted. Sure, it's not as fast as the GT-R can do it - but then I don't like electronic games either. Maybe I'm an analogue & mechanical sort.

I haven't driven a GT-R since they came out, but after spending a day with Nissan's press demonstrator in the mountains near Fuji I came away impressed enough, but not so much so that I'd give up the more raw fun that can be had with other more basic, but more skill-requiring cars. 
The GT-R has incredible levels of grip and performance, but it is a large, heavy and devoid of need to correct the car which lesser technologically advanced cars can come with. It can embarass other cars, but there's more satisfaction in driving than being the fastest sometimes... and sometimes there are lesser cars that will embarass the GT-R too, in the right situations.

Personally, image & attention seeking's not my thing. If I'm in a quick car, it will usually not stick around long enough for people to see much of it. The fun should be in the experience of driving, not observing how many people are oogling in my book anyways.

Your list of other cars excludes one because it's only available in Automatic. 
I don't aspire to own many modern cars, but a GT3 would be one of them.

Rent a GT3 for a day and then a GT-R and go drive somewhere with good open roads.
You'll know for sure then - before making the plunge.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Not a big fan of lowering springs to be honest - I think they're always flawed as a solution because you are asking the original damper to operate differently to how it was originally designed.

The Litchfield setup looks well thought out and their claims are very compelling!


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Like you, I enjoy using a clutch, proper heel & toe & double de-clutching, lack of electronics with only my foot as traction control, after all - traction isn't always necessarily wanted. Sure, it's not as fast as the GT-R can do it - but then I don't like electronic games either. Maybe I'm an analogue & mechanical sort.
> 
> I haven't driven a GT-R since they came out, but after spending a day with Nissan's press demonstrator in the mountains near Fuji I came away impressed enough, but not so much so that I'd give up the more raw fun that can be had with other more basic, but more skill-requiring cars.
> The GT-R has incredible levels of grip and performance, but it is a large, heavy and devoid of need to correct the car which lesser technologically advanced cars can come with. It can embarass other cars, but there's more satisfaction in driving than being the fastest sometimes... and sometimes there are lesser cars that will embarass the GT-R too, in the right situations.
> ...


Hi Miguel,

Thanks for the contrasting view. You are right of course, yet I do find the GTR such a compelling package for the money, despite knowing that the GT3 is a better driver's car, despite being flawed in design and slower!

I will find a way of driving both for a day as you say, it's the only way to be sure - again you speak the truth. 

Mart.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Caveman said:


> I was thinking about a MY10 car with less than 5k miles, for around £45k and then spend £15k on it to get it to 750 horses, which I understand is the limit of the standard internals. Hopefully that will be enough to keep me engaged for a long time?
> 
> Mart.


I think you'll be needing to upgrade the brakes all round, the anti roll bars and also have the gearbox 1st gear uprated and the circlips fitted.

That'll probably take your 15k of upgrades to around 22k.
Sounds good though.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Really?? The standard brakes are huuuuge! Isn't it just a case of whacking in some decent high temp fluid and a set of XP12s?

Mart.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Caveman said:


> Really?? The standard brakes are huuuuge! Isn't it just a case of whacking in some decent high temp fluid and a set of XP12s?
> 
> Mart.


If you are uprating the power by over 200bhp I believe you need to upgrade the stoppers too. Plus the standard brakes are known to have issues if you do a lot of hard braking, they crack from the cross drilled holes.

This can happen at stock power levels if driven hard and the brakes are not allowed to cool correctly.

If you are not going to drive hard enough to damage the stock brakes I'd question why you need 750bhp.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Standard discs are prone to cracking when used heavily. 

You are talking about adding 50% more power! Brake improvements are a must


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

Caveman said:


> Really?? The standard brakes are huuuuge! Isn't it just a case of whacking in some decent high temp fluid and a set of XP12s?
> 
> Mart.


New rotors and pads mate, you'll be fine. I believe the AP rotors are cheaper than the oem equivalent. No need to change the calipers in my eyes unless you're going balls out or like the bling


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

grahamc said:


> Standard discs are prone to cracking when used heavily.
> 
> You are talking about adding 50% more power! Brake improvements are a must


So all I'd need are pads then, until the standard discs begin to crack? No point throwing them away until then I'm guessing?

M.


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## Mini-E (Feb 29, 2008)

> Aston Vantage - No rear seats
> 
> Aston DBS - Too fancy and GT for me
> 
> ...


Your forgetting one; Porsche 911 GT3

You do realise the GT3 is a 2 seater?

So its looking more and more like a GTR for you...

Ps; id still take the GT3, infact id actually take a manual f430, i think these are the 'type' of cars you crave


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Mini-E said:


> Your forgetting one; Porsche 911 GT3
> 
> You do realise the GT3 is a 2 seater?
> 
> ...


The GT3 is the only other car I'm considering as per my first post. You can easily get rear belts retrofitted in a non RS version, as they have the same body and floorpan as a normal Carrera with the mounting points still there.

Mart.


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## Mini-E (Feb 29, 2008)

Caveman said:


> The GT3 is the only other car I'm considering as per my first post. You can easily get rear belts retrofitted in a non RS version, as they have the same body and floorpan as a normal Carrera with the mounting points still there.
> 
> Mart.


Yes, i believe it is possible. A 4 seater GT3 is a perfect idea, i would seriously consider one.... but

It will sound a bit iffy to an insurance company;

"So, iv retro-fitted some rear seat belts and rear seats so i can carry my children in my hard core performance 911", a car built as a two seater. Yes, it shares the same platform as a regular 911, but was built by porsche as a 2 seater, this could raise some safety issues.

I dont know, it probably would be fine, and it has been done before, but dont know if it was ever done in the UK


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Mini-E said:


> Yes, i believe it is possible. A 4 seater GT3 is a perfect idea, i would seriously consider one.... but
> 
> It will sound a bit iffy to an insurance company;
> 
> ...


Yes it's done quite regularly tbh. I have spoken to a seatbelt specialist and a Porsche specialist who have experience of doing this to UK cars. Some insurers are iffy, others see it as a simple modification as long as it's done by a recognised professional. 

Scroll half-way down the page:

Seat Belt Gallery | Porsche Seat Belts – Quick Fit SBS Ltd

M.


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

I wouldn't be putting my little one in the back of there! It would always play on my mind even if it was as good as standard.

Plus the insurance companies can be a pain if it comes to a payout. Buy the Turbo S


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## Mini-E (Feb 29, 2008)

Caveman said:


> Yes it's done quite regularly tbh. I have spoken to a seatbelt specialist and a Porsche specialist who have experience of doing this to UK cars. Some insurers are iffy, others see it as a simple modification as long as it's done by a recognised professional.
> 
> Scroll half-way down the page:
> 
> ...


Its certainly something to consider. I also have a daughter, so always interested in the 2+2's... carry on:thumbsup:


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

FLYNN said:


> I wouldn't be putting my little one in the back of there! It would always play on my mind even if it was as good as standard.
> 
> Plus the insurance companies can be a pain if it comes to a payout. Buy the Turbo S


It has the same shell as a 4 seater 911, so it's no different, 100% identical. All you're doing is buying the OEM belts, trim and fixings from Porsche and fitting them after the car has left the factory. You don't need to 'modify' the car in any way, they just bolt in as standard.


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## peterpeter (Feb 24, 2008)

tough choice..

Ive had both albeit the GT3 was a Mk1

Totally depends on how you use the car- If you want a daily driver road car for occasional track use..get a GTR- there is nothing better IMO.- plus if you need it to be properly practical..- the GT3 simply is not.

I would only by a GT3 as a second or third car if I had enough time to do plenty of track days..yes initially the GT3 is noisier/ more visceral and being manual has that extra feeling of involvement...but the GTR seriously gets under your skin and really 30 mins is not enough to even get a whiff of it..it takes 2-3 days to really get the car and even then it will still surprise you.

Overall IMO these two cars are the best combination if you can afford a pair...but 
if its your daily driver, get the GTR 

if you are tracking it and its a weekend special get the GT3...

Either way you wont regret it..

IMO- Id get a GTR 09 for £40 k and a MK2 GT3 for £40


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

peterpeter said:


> tough choice..
> 
> Ive had both albeit the GT3 was a Mk1
> 
> ...


Completely agree with what you said and I really like your thinking


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

You mentioned being concerned about getting bored. Well it is impossible to get bored of the GT-R, because there is a never-ending journey of modding to enjoy! Far more so than the GT3 or any other Porsche.

BTW, if modding wasn't allowed, it would be a lot closer, as a standard GT-R is almost too perfectly balanced between grip and power and far too quiet to be exciting.
Thankfully modding is allowed...


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

The car will be my 3rd car, as I have a classic impreza wagon for work, and the RS6 as the family distance eater. The new car is only for weekend road use, occasional family outings and trips to Le Mans etc. I think I'd be too scared to take either car on track for the fear of bending it.

Someone want to loan me their car for a weekend!?


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

As I said further up the thread, you can hire one for a weekend for a few grand.
Much cheaper than buying the wrong car...


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## laitm001 (Jul 3, 2011)

My advice is don't buy a GTR! It's so good you can't actually drive the car without speeding 100% of the time  

Basically it's like being addicted to a class A substance, and then you get an extra hit when the tuning starts. If caught - both have the potential to ruin your life very quickly.


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

laitm001 said:


> My advice is don't buy a GTR! It's so good you can't actually drive the car without speeding 100% of the time
> 
> Basically it's like being addicted to a class A substance, and then you get an extra hit when the tuning starts. If caught - both have the potential to ruin your life very quickly.


This man speaks the truth! I am feeling the addiction settling in myself...


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## sniper993 (Jul 3, 2012)

Mini-E said:


> Yes, i believe it is possible. A 4 seater GT3 is a perfect idea, i would seriously consider one.... but
> 
> It will sound a bit iffy to an insurance company;
> 
> ...


A non club sport spec GT3 (comfort spec) has rear seats as standard


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

sniper993 said:


> A non club sport spec GT3 (comfort spec) has rear seats as standard


Nope, I can guarantee you are 100% wrong. NO GT3 comes with rear seats. Non Clubsport comes with no cage and reclining front seats, but no rears. Trust me! 

Mart.


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

Caveman said:


> Nope, I can guarantee you are 100% wrong. NO GT3 comes with rear seats. Non Clubsport comes with no cage and reclining front seats, but no rears. Trust me!
> 
> Mart.


 So where are we now on the car hunt Mart?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

I think the GT3 is probably the better out and out driver's car, but I think that that GTR will have character of its own, just in a different way. As some people have said, I need to spend time with a GTR to see if it gets under my skin, and if it doesn't, then a GT3 it will be.

I know the GT3 is good, but for some reason I want to like the GTR. I think that secretly I'm a bit of a reverse badge snob and hence am not sure if I can see myself in a flashy Porsche. Shallow I know. :shy:


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Also plan you mods carefully and in small stages and you will love the GTR even more! Just know when enough is enough...


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

If a third car - get the GT3.

My ultimate plan is to buy a BMW S1000RR, but I can't afford the divorce that comes with it.


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## Rhodie (Sep 25, 2002)

Think very carefully about way you wish to use the car. It has four seats a proper boot, you're able to tour with the best and it can be used on a daily basis. Oh and its pretty good on track as well. What it isn't is a GT3 RS, go to a track meeting and see which you are more attracted to, try to hitch a ride, they are very different. Technically the GT-R is unbelievable, but the whole feel, noise, etc is not in the GT3 RS league.


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## alex_123_fra (Mar 26, 2008)

Caveman said:


> I think the GT3 is probably the better out and out driver's car, but I think that that GTR will have character of its own, just in a different way. As some people have said, I need to spend time with a GTR to see if it gets under my skin, and if it doesn't, then a GT3 it will be.
> 
> I know the GT3 is good, but for some reason I want to like the GTR. I think that secretly I'm a bit of a reverse badge snob and hence am not sure if I can see myself in a flashy Porsche. Shallow I know. :shy:


I wouldn't buy a GT3 and retrofit rear seats just because of a desire to buy a "driver's car" that is practical. An E92 M3 fits that bill more than adequately. 

The GT3 in standard and RS versions is a good driver's car but is it the best out there? No, by far not. You would need a mid-engined configuration if you wanted the best driver's car in my opinion (F430 Scuderia, 458, Noble M400 and above, Exige S). 

Thinking about a GT-R and a GT3 is probably thinking about 2 flawed solutions for what you actually want. I may have missed something but why does this car need to have rear seats when you have an RS6?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

I know what you mean, but I tend to use my cars to go places at weekends, and having a young family means that those places normally include my family. My wife is a fellow petrolhead and she doesn't want to miss out on the fun, and my son is the biggest car fan of all!  If I didn't have rear seats, I would never use the car... Hence the GTR or GT3 with rear belt option. I want a car the sole purpose of which is to be a pleasure to drive quickly, whilst having the space for my family when necessary. We often have weekends away in Wales, The Peaks etc and half the fun is enjoying the roads there and back!

I have no interest in a fast saloon as they don't excite me like a dedicated, purpose designed sportscar does - something that I've never owned and can now (just about) afford!

Adding rear seats to the GT3 isn't the big mod that it sounds, it's very simple. What's wrong with putting belts in the back if the shell was designed to have belts/seats in the first place??

M.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Nothing.

Personally I'd feel a bit of a tit driving to Tesco and parking in the child spaces with a GT3.
For some reason a GT-R seems more acceptable.

Sure, you get a bit of attention. But people tend to like a Nissan supercar, while people tend to think you are a flash --bleep-- in the Porsche.

But then even though i like the Porsche I could never own one. But that's just me.
I like a great car with a sensible badge. I'm anti-badge snobbery.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Never been in a gt3 but I am sure I have seen it tested against te GTR and the gt3 looked terrible on bad roads. The GTR was much more useable. 

Surely if it's a weekend family car that has to be taken into account. 

Sadly agree with statement about pitching up with family in a GTR vs gt3. GTR every time!!


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## alex_123_fra (Mar 26, 2008)

Caveman said:


> I know what you mean, but I tend to use my cars to go places at weekends, and having a young family means that those places normally include my family. My wife is a fellow petrolhead and she doesn't want to miss out on the fun, and my son is the biggest car fan of all!  If I didn't have rear seats, I would never use the car... Hence the GTR or GT3 with rear belt option. I want a car the sole purpose of which is to be a pleasure to drive quickly, whilst having the space for my family when necessary. We often have weekends away in Wales, The Peaks etc and half the fun is enjoying the roads there and back!
> 
> I have no interest in a fast saloon as they don't excite me like a dedicated, purpose designed sportscar does - something that I've never owned and can now (just about) afford!
> 
> ...


If that is the case, I would suggest you get a GT-R. If you are going to *properly * drive a GT3 in order to enable you to feel like you are driving a driver's car, with kids in the back, then you are not going to be as safe in a GT3 as you will be in a GT-R. If you are not going to drive it as a driver's car, then why get a GT3 in the first place. 

On UK roads (+rain +kids in the back), you will be far safer in a GT-R.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

alex_123_fra said:


> If that is the case, I would suggest you get a GT-R. If you are going to *properly * drive a GT3 in order to enable you to feel like you are driving a driver's car, with kids in the back, then you are not going to be as safe in a GT3 as you will be in a GT-R. If you are not going to drive it as a driver's car, then why get a GT3 in the first place.
> 
> On UK roads (+rain +kids in the back), you will be far safer in a GT-R.


I sort of agree, but at the same time, I imagine that a GTR is only properly rewarding at silly speeds, whereas the feel and communication of the GT3 mean that it feels special and is fun even within the speed limit. The GT3 is all about the steering and the analogue feel communicated through every element - gear change, pedals, seat, steering, chassis etc. I think that's where the biggest difference is. 

I have to try them both for extended drives and see for myself! 

Mart.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Am lucky enough to have a gen2 997 GT3 and GTR. They are both great cars and you can't go wrong with either and it's all been said. If it was a daily driver I would say the GTR feels a lot faster in real world driving conditions. The GT3 needs the whole 8,750 RPM but I guess if it's just a weekend car then you may find yourself in the high end of the rev range more often  The reason I chimed in is that I notice you were thinking of putting rear seats in the GT3 but I am pretty sure I have heard that is not a good idea due to safety reasons because the GT3 only has a single skin back there and it has had catastrophic consequences in the past so would check out if that fact has changed first. Whatever you choose enjoy.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

mags993tt said:


> ...I am pretty sure I have heard that is not a good idea due to safety reasons because the GT3 only has a single skin back there and it has had catastrophic consequences in the past so would check out if that fact has changed first...


Yeah, I heard that too, but it seems to be incorrect. I've since spoken to JZM who have reto-fitted belts in phase 2 cars with no issues. It seems that the mountaing points are still there as with phase 1 cars. What catastrophic consequences are you speaking of? 

Interesting that you have both cars. Would you mind doing a quick write-up comparison between the two in terms of driving experience?

Cheers,

M.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

On the rear single skin issue I read it a while back (can’t remember where) and was just repeating for you to check out in case there is anything to it. By catastrophic consequences I assumed the original author was referring to a serious injury or fatality that would not have occurred in another 911 designed for rear passengers.

In terms of comparison I managed to rattle on for ages on the difference between a MY10 and MY12 GTR LOL so I could probably write a (very boring) book on GT3 vs GTR so I have condensed it to the things that I think make a real difference living with the two in road driving conditions that may not be immediately obvious unless you own one. Some comes under driving experience and some does not.

1)GT3 service interval is 2years vs GTR 1year (or 6 months on MY10 and before).

2)GT3 servicing is cheaper – my 2 year service cost me 500 quid from a main dealer.

3)The GT3 has some quirks – you sometimes get formula one wheel gun noise on startup for a second or 2 which sounds like your engine is broken (it’s random depending on position the engine stopped and how the hydraulic chain tensioners have lost pressure). You sometimes get no smoke, a little puff or a full blown crowd pleasing smoke screen on startup. Again random depending on how engine stopped and how long it has sat. GTR is very well behaved as one would expect a road car to behave.

4)Exhaust noise – the GT3 has a sport switch and exhaust valves. Basically the car can be driven quietly on partial throttle. On full throttle all hell brakes loose at 4kRPM in normal mode or 3kRPM in sport (and idle a bit burblier in sport). GTR is far quieter and has linear noise through the rev range rather than the valve effect. On the motorway, constant throttle the GT3 exhaust is not terrible but it is far more intrusive than standard GTR and you definitely need to speak up where as GTR is far more relaxing and able to have normal conversation.

5)Sound deadening – the GT3 has none. To give you an idea what a big difference it makes (and I did have other 911’s before to compare as well as the GTR) I never knew that when it rained the rain drops hitting the road surface loosened sand/grit that was collected in the imperceptible nooks and crannies on the surface. I can hear each grain of the aforementioned hitting the wheel arches in the GT3. The GTR is very civilized.

6)The GT3 is a far lower car. Not just the front spoiler (you need the lifting kit if you don’t like rubbing it on big bumps) but getting into it is more of a dive. The GTR has a far taller seating position and higher splitter.

7)Rear wing – both have rear wings that get in the way of rear vision but in the GT3 you would never know if an unmarked police car or indeed any car was flashing you unless they were miles back.

8)GT3 slightly better on fuel consumption.

9)GT3 is only manual and the clutch is not as well weighted as a Carrera S. It’s heavier and the action is as benign. Gear change is tougher until the car warms up. 

10)The GT3 has far better visibility than the GTR for most manouvres and is slightly smaller which makes it much easier to judge and thread through traffic, width restrictions etc. 

11)Steering is much more alive on the GT3 but sometimes you don’t need so much feedback ... You would know if you ran over a frozen pea in a GT3 and which of the front tyres it was.

12)GT3 has a higher quality interior feel but that can depend a lot on what options are specified.

13)GTR gets more positive attention on the road. I think the GT3 goes largely unnoticed in London as there are so many 911’s which I think is a good point but depends on how much of an impact one wants to make ***61514; By the way I think colour makes a big difference too. I went from a Silver GTR to a gunmetal GTR and I used to get a thumbs up virtually every drive in the Silver and very little attention in the gunmetal so far.

14) Performance – GTR feels much quicker in real world driving situations. Ie putting your foot down at 2-3kRPM. The GT3 feels very slow when I get into it after the GTR but if you are taking both to the redline then they are far more evenly matched. I think the deceptive bit is that the rev range is so much bigger on the GT3 that you can hold gears for far longer to higher speeds while accelerating but it’s a big effort, The GTR is completely effortless with the big torque low down and the paddle shift instantly changing gears with the movement of one finger. What this means is that the GTR’s performance is far more accessible for more time with less effort in normal driving conditions. Whether it is more or less fun accessing that performance is down to driver preference. I like them both though they are very different in this respect.

15)Traction control and ESP – the GTR intervention seems far smoother than GT3 which is a bit all or nothing. GT3 allows you to switch of traction control only or traction and Porsche stability system.

16)Satnav trip computer etc pretty similar on both. Would say the Porsche is better thought out for trip computer and the GTR has better Satnav and traffic. Don’t forget all the Bluetooth, satnav, telephone module, sound system etc on the Porsche are options so they are not all the same.

Can’t think of much else at the moment but if you have any specific questions can try to answer but would say as an all round road car the GTR is better. It can be a grand tourer but it can also put in devastatingly quick lap times. For feeling you are in a “racing car” on the road the GT3 ticks more boxes but some of those boxes may not be highly desireable. Knowing you have a GT3 is a great feeling but I would say if 99pct of driving is on the road then a Carrera S is probably the better car. Having said that I wouldn’t swap my GT3 back to a Carrera S so logic clearly isn’t the only criteria with these types of car and it comes down to personal motivations in the end…

Cheers,
M


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## dominic1 (Feb 16, 2012)

Thats a great write up thank you, i nearly bought a gt3 glad i bought the gtr, when i went to nurburg last year the 2 wepons of choice were gtr's and gt3's saw 3/4 gt3 in the walls did not see one gtr crash , i am sure that has a lot to do with driver error but it was what made my mind up for me. I dont like crashing ............. it hurts


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Thanks for taking the time to write such a long reply, appreciated and really useful.

I know the term is over-used, but essentially this car's sole purpose will be as a driver's car, i.e. one purely to derive pleasure from driving. As long as it can safely take me and the family and a couple of weekend bags, then that's as far as practicality matters to me. 

It would be good to get your detailed feedback on how the driving experience differs, how the sensations that the cars offer differ, in terms of feel, steering, brakes, acceleration, response and most of all involvement. Which car do you get out of with the biggest grin on your face after driving a great stretch of windy, challenging road? To me it's all about how the car makes you *feel*, the emotional involvement that it delivers - not so much the outright competence or performance. I know the GTR is a much faster and more able machine most of the time! 

Ultimately, if you could only have one as a weekend car, would you keep the GTR or GT3!? 

Cheers!

Mart.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Caveman said:


> Thanks for taking the time to write such a long reply, appreciated and really useful.
> 
> I know the term is over-used, but essentially this car's sole purpose will be as a driver's car, i.e. one purely to derive pleasure from driving. As long as it can safely take me and the family and a couple of weekend bags, then that's as far as practicality matters to me.
> 
> ...


My personal opinion and no doubt this is a very personal thing, for what you are describing in terms of involvement, I would say you want the lightest, smallest, manual car you can get where you put a big effort in in order to get the reward. If the GT3 can take the family then I guess that is the one that fits the bill best in your short list. It has the best brakes in the business no doubt, if you are into heeling and toeing you don't have a choice. Didn't read the whole thread so not sure if you have had a 911 before but if you haven't there is one aspect you either like, are indifferent to, or hate which is very different to the GTR in terms of feel. The front is very light and the cars tends to nod a bit over challenging roads. The GTR has the traditional front engine stable planted feel to it. In terms of handling, steering feel, sensations, response etc neither car is lacking even if they are different. It's only the brakes where I would say my GT3 has a dynamic edge.

Honestly though it is such a personal thing...and to illustrate what I mean - for what you describe I would get a GTR and a cheap second hand Caterham R300 as a second car to go on blasts by yourself or with one passenger. Nothing is more competent at putting a smile on your face or has greater driver involvement or can be utilised as fully on the road and double up as an excellent track car in my humble opinion.


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## Henry 145 (Jul 15, 2009)

My GTR was sooooo much fun today in the wet...no other car would give me such a big grin...had 3 x 997 (GT3/GT2/Turbo) and 996 Turbo plus Evo 9 and none made me as happy as GTR...on third one and regretted getting rid if each one so had to go back...got last one a few weeks after daughter born and still in doghouse...daughter happily goes in back and boot swallows all baby crap plus our bags


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## Blairc (Nov 18, 2002)

Great write up of the GTR v GT3 and was considering a GT3 before I got the GTR, think I made the right choice for me just now.


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## KingOfTheGT-R (May 21, 2011)

Did you test drive the 2012 Mart?


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## Mark B (Jul 28, 2004)

I currently have a 997 GT3 Clubsport (for sale with JZM at the moment) and have driven the GTR a few times.

The GT3 is far more of a drivers car, far more involving. It might be slower too, but lets face it, a 415bhp car at sub 1400kg is never going to be classed as sluggish!

What it isn't good at is being a road car. The tyre noise is very bad at motorway speeds, and driving it in the weather we are having at the moment is borderline dangerous on Cup tyres. It is however a good track car - although i'm not keen on the way it understeers from the front.

The GTR on the other hand is a better road car in any condition, but not as fun on track, and a shit load more expensive to track.

See how opposite they actually are?

Turbo, AWD, heavy, paddle shift, front engine....

NA, RWD, lightweight, manual, rear engine....

You can't compare them really.


I'm actually considering a GTR / M3 / Vantage now as my driving needs have changed and I need a road car. When I bought the GT3 it was something to come home to for a blast when i'd been working away. It just doesn't suit daily road driving imo.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Agreed, that's why I'm not buying it as a daily driver, rather a fun weekend car for blasts on country roads and short weekends away in Wales, Peaks etc with my family, as well as trips to Le Mans etc.

Daily practicality and comfort isn't a concern as I've said, as long it has the space for a couple of squishy weekend bags. The tyre noise on a GTR is equally as bad too, but again not an issue, as an uprated exhaust will drown that out anyway! 

Mart.


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## Taff1275 (Jan 25, 2012)

Caveman said:


> Agreed, that's why I'm not buying it as a daily driver, rather a fun weekend car for blasts on country roads and short weekends away in Wales, Peaks etc with my family, as well as trips to Le Mans etc.
> 
> Daily practicality and comfort isn't a concern as I've said, as long it has the space for a couple of squishy weekend bags. The tyre noise on a GTR is equally as bad too, but again not an issue, as an uprated exhaust will drown that out anyway!
> 
> Mart.


Plenty of cracking roads in Wales, introduced my R35 to the Evo Triangle last time I was home and loved it, my opinion is for the money nothing else compares and plenty of tuning & upgrade options to keep you occupied and your wallet empty :chuckle:


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## Tinoush (Oct 26, 2009)

if i go for a GT3, i go for GT3rs


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## Mark B (Jul 28, 2004)

Always interests me the fascination with the RS.

Is it faster? No not really, it has no more power and actually the top end is about 2 mph less.

Ok it's lighter, so has better PTW ratio, but that comes at both a massive price difference and a lack of features in the cabin.

It looks better, but at the sacrifice of costing a LOT more, being a lot louder / more uncomfortable.

Clubsport is the one to have. I think most want an RS beacuase of the 2 letters!


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## Mark B (Jul 28, 2004)

Caveman said:


> Agreed, that's why I'm not buying it as a daily driver, rather a fun weekend car for blasts on country roads and short weekends away in Wales, Peaks etc with my family, as well as trips to Le Mans etc.
> 
> Daily practicality and comfort isn't a concern as I've said, as long it has the space for a couple of squishy weekend bags. The tyre noise on a GTR is equally as bad too, but again not an issue, as an uprated exhaust will drown that out anyway!
> 
> Mart.


Every one of your posts is saying 'I want a GT3 but am trying to justify it'  I've done this before myself! 

Just do it (buy mine as it's simply the best you will find, full spec, zero rev ranges and close to you! )

JZM Porsche Sales : 997 GT3 Club Sport With Transferable OPC Warranty

I think the GTR will probably suit you better though.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Caveman said:


> Agreed, that's why I'm not buying it as a daily driver, rather a fun weekend car for blasts on country roads and short weekends away in Wales, Peaks etc with my family, as well as trips to Le Mans etc.
> 
> Daily practicality and comfort isn't a concern as I've said, as long it has the space for a couple of squishy weekend bags. The tyre noise on a GTR is equally as bad too, but again not an issue, as an uprated exhaust will drown that out anyway!
> 
> Mart.


What tyre noise on the GTR??


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## alex_123_fra (Mar 26, 2008)

Will you have to also change the bucket seats in the GT3? Do they go far enough foward to fit the kids in the back?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

alex_123_fra said:


> Will you have to also change the bucket seats in the GT3? Do they go far enough foward to fit the kids in the back?


If I go for the GT3 it would be a comfort spec, which comes with reclinable buckets, road tyres, and no roll cage, or fire extinguisher.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Not sure on price and the likes, but what about one of these? Has back seats....
C63 Black Series: The perfect road car?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Funny, I quite like the look of those - certainly an event to drive! If they were within my budget I'd consider one, but they're £100k+ and all sold. 

Still like to see your car sometime mate. 

Mart.


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## PaulMcA (Feb 17, 2010)

Mark B said:


> Every one of your posts is saying 'I want a GT3 but am trying to justify it'  I've done this before myself!
> 
> Just do it (buy mine as it's simply the best you will find, full spec, zero rev ranges and close to you! )
> 
> ...


What a VERY, very interesting thread. 
I am in exactly the same position as you Mart. I even went to JZM on saturday to have a nose around the three GT3's they have in. Funny that one is Mark's above  I am in Berkhamsted... so very close. All a bit spookily coincidental this.

I have really wanted to get a GTR (2011 model) but some key things put me off. The cost of running them (incl. the frequency of the servicing), the Nissan Customer Service if/when something goes wrong (this incl. part prices, waiting times, without a car for days/weeks) and then there is the physical size of the car. However, it can seat 3/4 if needs be for short trips on occassion, it has useable luggage space and is an all weather everyday car, that is faster than most. I also need a car to seduce me with the sound it makes (not noise). Not sure the GTR does that. Even with exhausts etc. youtube clips still don't make me grin. 

So a GT3 could fit the bill. Like you I would want a CS spec but also must have the carbon seats and then have the rear seat belts put in. And you are right Mart, this has been done regularly, there is no safety concern. I think the issues are with the RS model and previous 996 GT models due to thinner structure.
But is the GT3 too harcore for everyday? It will be my everyday car, I ran a CSL for 3 years and that was fine. I do about 6000 miles a year, most for pleasure with the odd commute cross country. Also I suspect the GT3 residuals will be better than a GTR over the next 3/4 years.

And to throw a spanner in the works, I suspect the R8 might be the perfect compromise. Lol

Decisions, decisions :nervous:


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## james1 (Aug 23, 2010)

PaulMcA said:


> What a VERY, very interesting thread.
> I am almost exaclty the same position as you Mart. I even went to JZM on saturday to have a nose around the three GT3's they have in. Funny that one is Mark's above  And I am in Berkhamsted... so very close.
> 
> I have really wanted to get a GTR (2011 model) but some key things put me off. The cost of running them (incl. the frequency of the servicing), the Nissan Customer Service if and when something goes wrong and the size of the car. However, it can seat 3/4 if needs be for short trips on occassion, it has useable luggage space and is an all weather everyday car. I also need a car to seduce me with the sound it makes (not noise). Not sure the GTR does that. Even with exhausts etc. youtube clips still don't make me grin.
> ...





if you only do 6k per year and want a 2011 onwards gtr its only yearly servicing and if you buy a car with service pack its no servicing at all for remainder of the 3 years......

j


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## PaulMcA (Feb 17, 2010)

james1 said:


> if you only do 6k per year and want a 2011 onwards gtr its only yearly servicing and if you buy a car with service pack its no servicing at all for remainder of the 3 years......
> 
> j



James, is the free service schedule transferable (I would be purchasing a used car) and how many owners actually took out the service option? I was under the impression not many due to the cost.


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## james1 (Aug 23, 2010)

PaulMcA said:


> James, is the free service schedule transferable (I would be purchasing a used car) and how many owners actually took out the service option? I was under the impression not many due to the cost.



yes the service cost is transferable...
who wouldnt you take out the servicing pack? 499 quid for 3 years servicing? 

its a no brainer no?


j


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

PaulMcA said:


> What a VERY, very interesting thread.
> I am in exactly the same position as you Mart. I even went to JZM on saturday to have a nose around the three GT3's they have in. Funny that one is Mark's above  I am in Berkhamsted... so very close. All a bit spookily coincidental this.
> 
> I have really wanted to get a GTR (2011 model) but some key things put me off. The cost of running them (incl. the frequency of the servicing), the Nissan Customer Service if/when something goes wrong (this incl. part prices, waiting times, without a car for days/weeks) and then there is the physical size of the car. However, it can seat 3/4 if needs be for short trips on occassion, it has useable luggage space and is an all weather everyday car, that is faster than most. I also need a car to seduce me with the sound it makes (not noise). Not sure the GTR does that. Even with exhausts etc. youtube clips still don't make me grin.
> ...



Hi there,

Spooky indeed!

Your requirements do sound similar to mine you're right, and alas a no rear passenger room does remove the R8 as a possibility - a V10 would have been awesome! 

Sound wise, yes also agreed. As a weekend hack, I want the car to be an event to drive in terms of actual drive, but also look AND noise! This GTR system by JDM Password does sound pretty exotic I have to say though:

Password JDM R35 GT-R Exhaust System - YouTube

What was your impression of the GT3 after seeing/driving it? Be interested in your comporative thoughts fella.

Mart.


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## PaulMcA (Feb 17, 2010)

Hi Mart,

NOW that does sound amzing. Are JDM Password products available through a UK reseller? Not a bad price either at $1999 

I didn't drive the GT3 at JZM only because I am not in a position to actually make an offer for a number of weeks and I dont want to waste peoples time and in general be a tyre kicker. When I am ready and have the time I will get a test drive of a GT3 and then see if I can get a dealer to let me have a GTR for the afternoon and the same for an R8 (I am after the V8). 

However, on first impressions the GT3 is very special. And it's a very nicely packaged car... good exterior dimensions, I really liked the interior and at 6'3" I fit the fixed seats and internal dimensions very well, it's a lovely low seating position and I am very against cars that have you 'perched' on seats rather than in them. Initial impression was that the clutch is fairly heavy and requires a good push, gear linkage is like a rifle bolt, pedals slightly offset to the left, high quality finish and fit everywhere. It was special and did stir the soul, it has character and you can sense the racing history is the best wasy to describe it.


However, I do think that everytime I look around a GTR it also feels very special... any pictures and video clips do not do any justice what so ever to a GTR... It's in the flesh that it appears quite uniquely special and can see why people are smitten with them. Not sure about the interior still... a bit 'messy' and I would have to immediately swap out the seats, even the latest model Recaro's, for lower and more supportive Recaro CS's.


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

Yep, I have the same problem in the GTR, my head almost touches the roof which is annoying. I also like the lower seating in the GT3. Nothing a pair of carbon seats can't sort though for the GTR. These look quite a steal, I'm sure seat rails are easy enough to sort:

EuroCupGT GT3 Style Racing & Driving Seats for all Models, Leather & Alcantera Seats for Porsche 996 & 997 plus 911 & Boxster & Cayman

£1000 for the pair! :thumbsup:


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

Have you posted on any GT3 forums?


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## Caveman (Apr 28, 2004)

FLYNN said:


> Have you posted on any GT3 forums?


No, 'cause I know what response I would get! I wanted an honest opinion from GTR owners, and that's what I've got. :clap:

Very grateful fellas. :thumbsup:

Mart.


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## FLYNN (Oct 6, 2006)

Caveman said:


> No, 'cause I know what response I would get! I wanted an honest opinion from GTR owners, and that's what I've got. :clap:
> 
> Very grateful fellas. :thumbsup:
> 
> Mart.


Would be interesting to see what their reply would be....


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Caveman said:


> Funny, I quite like the look of those - certainly an event to drive! If they were within my budget I'd consider one, but they're £100k+ and all sold.
> 
> Still like to see your car sometime mate.
> 
> Mart.


No worries, just let me know when you are ready... 

Car is going in for downpipes, fuel injectors, forge header tank and service in middle of august. Remap at Surrey Rolling road on the 28th August, can come down for that....


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

FLYNN said:


> Would be interesting to see what their reply would be....


You want to buy a Datsun instead of a Porsche ??? 

:chuckle:

PS. Please don't leave us behind on the road, it's embarrassing.


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