# 1014hp at the tyres R34 GTR using E85



## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

We had a win on the weekend with an engine we built for Mercury Motorsport. It was a Nitto 2.7 stroker using as much of their parts as possible (crank, oil pump, pistons, conrods, valves, guides, cam cover etc) in a fully prepped N1 block and using one of our cylinder heads as well as our 9 litre race sump. After the long engine was delivered the guys at Mercury fitted and tuned it on E85 and took it to its first outing on the weekend at Queensland Raceway. The event was Powercruise which involves all sorts of on track mayhem for petrol heads and is mostly full of big power old school V8's. Mercury at the closing stages of the weekend decided to put the car into the dyno competition and rolled 1014 at the wheels to not only take out their class but also the overall highest power for the weekend.

The tune was quite tame as E85 doesn't like excessive boost or RPM so i set some fairly stringent boundaries for their tuner to preserve engine life. Proper race fuel and more tuning is soon to come but the question is....can this thing make 1000KW at the tyres? My maths says it can but we will know for sure in a few weeks.

Stay tuned.


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

Wow thats very impressive,is that at all four wheels or rear only.

I think this Nitto stuff looks very good,a great option to going rb30.

Any vids :thumbsup:


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## Hja-Ozz (Oct 8, 2007)

Awesome results I bet that's a handful!

what bearings do do you use? also fully prepped N1 block meaning stress relieved?


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Red R Racing said:


> The tune was quite tame as E85 doesn't like excessive boost or RPM so i set some fairly stringent boundaries for their tuner to preserve engine life.


Sounds awesome - congrats  E85 not liking excessive boost or RPM isn't something I'd heard before?! I know of people pumping 40+psi through E85 fuelled engines - what do you call "excessive boost" :nervous:


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

Lith said:


> Sounds awesome - congrats  E85 not liking excessive boost or RPM isn't something I'd heard before?! I know of people pumping 40+psi through E85 fuelled engines - what do you call "excessive boost" :nervous:


40psi is ok as long as you dont use high rpm. Piston speed and cylinder pressure combined separates the fuel molecules in the petrol component of the mix. You can use 40psi but id keep the rpm around the 8000 mark. We have done real world testing and seen engines cop a hiding using 38psi and 10,000rpm. We also have access to data from the Vodafone V8 Supercar team here in australia which supports what we have discovered. 34psi at 9000rpm is the limit on this engine when using E85. We are going to run VP race fuel (the engine was built to use this fuel) and plan to run another 10psi and rev it to 11500rpm.


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

Red R Racing said:


> 40psi is ok as long as you dont use high rpm. Piston speed and cylinder pressure combined separates the fuel molecules in the petrol component of the mix. You can use 40psi but id keep the rpm around the 8000 mark. We have done real world testing and seen engines cop a hiding using 38psi and 10,000rpm. We also have access to data from the Vodafone V8 Supercar team here in australia which supports what we have discovered. 34psi at 9000rpm is the limit on this engine when using E85. We are going to run VP race fuel (the engine was built to use this fuel) and plan to run another 10psi and rev it to 11500rpm.




11500 rpm and 44 psi ! that must be one hell of an engine :thumbsup:


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

http://www.boostcruising.com/database/forums/files/post-615-1282901281174738708.jpg

here's some info and a quick vid of the dyno run, as you can see it barely raised a sweat.

Red R Racing built Nitto 2.7 cracks 1000hp at the wheels!


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## Kadir (Mar 23, 2008)

More pictures please..! 

I haven't got the foggiest about turbos or all the related relevant jargon however that turbo looks absolutely huge! Engine bay looks fantastic..


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Is that all??


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

thats a farken donkey of a car paul


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Is that all??


hey rob, you're a smarty pants lol - whats the most you have made on a dyno?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

About the same was all we could measure but it was through an auto with a GT45 with lower boost, it was on Q16 though, no dought the above car is very strong, what turbo is it?

1000+whp on a dyno is cool but it doesn't mean its going to be particularly responsive, I'll reserve full judgement till I see the ET and mph at the strip .


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> About the same was all we could measure but it was through an auto with a GT45 with lower boost, it was on Q16 though, no dought the above car is very strong, what turbo is it?
> 
> 1000+whp on a dyno is cool but it doesn't mean its going to be particularly responsive, I'll reserve full judgement till I see the ET and mph at the strip .


Rob the brief was to build a dyno competition engine. Nothing more, in my opinion a bit of a waste of money but if thats what they want, thats what they get. It runs an off the shelf oil cooled Garrett 47 turbo.

Not really my cup of tea but everyone like different things.

Id like to see a clutchless 5 speed behind it running low 8's but it will never see this sort of use. If it was built to run down the strip it would have a different chamber design to what it has and a couple of other things done a little differently.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Red R Racing said:


> Rob the brief was to build a dyno competition engine. Nothing more, in my opinion a bit of a waste of money but if thats what they want, thats what they get. It runs an off the shelf oil cooled Garrett 47 turbo.
> 
> Not really my cup of tea but everyone like different things.
> 
> Id like to see a clutchless 5 speed behind it running low 8's but it will never see this sort of use. If it was built to run down the strip it would have a different chamber design to what it has and a couple of other things done a little differently.


Understand completely, shame though as there's a few high power skyines in Aussie that don't seem to make it to the strip for one reason or another.

Wonder what it would make in 4wd? 920-930ish? Have you ever compared on the same dyno, one run in 2wd the other in 4wd?

Rob


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Understand completely, shame though as there's a few high power skyines in Aussie that don't seem to make it to the strip for one reason or another.
> 
> Wonder what it would make in 4wd? 920-930ish? Have you ever compared on the same dyno, one run in 2wd the other in 4wd?
> 
> Rob


they put it straight back on their dyno when they got the car back to the workshop after the event and it made made 970 at all 4. Both dyno's are Dyno Dynamics units in shootout mode. So there is about 50hp difference.

dyno's are weird things though, Mainline reads the same power whether in 2wd or 4wd. We did this at Autosalon Final Battle with our own car and the difference was 2kw.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Definatly don't believe 2kw but 50hp sounds like a reasonable whp difference between 2wd and 4wd at that power level.

Bet the Yellow 34 comes on like a f&*kn bomb on the street aye, be bloody good fun

Rob


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Definatly don't believe 2kw but 50hp sounds like a reasonable whp difference between 2wd and 4wd at that power level.
> 
> Bet the Yellow 34 comes on like a f&*kn bomb on the street aye, be bloody good fun
> 
> Rob


yeah a bit weird on the mainline, i suggest he had the set-up incorrect but he assures me it does some sort of crazy mathematical algorithim to calculate the figure.

They took the car out on the track a couple of times at the event and from all reports had a load of fun in it. 

Ive just spoken to the owner of the car's husband on the phone and ive offered my drag box and rubber to them if they want to run it...he's very keen! They also have a new gas kit handy if required so it may see the strip after all.:thumbsup:


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## SafT (May 20, 2004)

How fast does the mainline ramp up? Slower ramp = less difference between flywheel and wheel hp in theory.


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

SafT said:


> How fast does the mainline ramp up? Slower ramp = less difference between flywheel and wheel hp in theory.


no idea...both were wheel kw with my car in both rwd and awd. Another interesting thing is two different dyno brands, one day apart in the same city with similar weather and atmospheric conditions my car made the same power. If the operator knows how to acurately operate the dyno then it can acurately measure the power level. A lot of this comes down to correct set-up including tyre pressure, strapping, ramp rate etc. 

The most accurate dyno ever is 1320ft of prepped bitumen with sufficient braking area and timing equipment. Its a lot more fun too!


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Red R Racing said:


> The most accurate dyno ever is 1320ft of prepped bitumen with sufficient braking area and timing equipment. Its a lot more fun too!


Amen to that, it sorts out who "says they have" or "been told they have" from those who "actually have"


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

tuning on racefuel this week in preparation for Autosalon on the Gold Coast, will update when available


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Ooo this should be interesting  Meth or Q16?


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

Lith said:


> Ooo this should be interesting  Meth or Q16?


not either of those two.

Methanol is not allowed in competition and C16 does not tolerate the piston speed at the boost level we intend to use (the rate of compression and cylinder pressure is too high, this is clearly seen on the plugs when 9500rpm is exceeded)

the engine combo was built around the race fuel we are going to use, the E85 was only really for run-in and street use. Its 124 octane, carries a heap of oxygen and really loves agressive timing advance


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Red R Racing said:


> Methanol is not allowed in competition and C16 does not tolerate the piston speed at the boost level we intend to use (the rate of compression and cylinder pressure is too high, this is clearly seen on the plugs when 9500rpm is exceeded)
> 
> the engine combo was built around the race fuel we are going to use, the E85 was only really for run-in and street use. Its 124 octane, carries a heap of oxygen and really loves agressive timing advance


I find the piston speed and boost comments for those different fuels really interesting - like E85 has been used in EVOs spinning to 9000rpm+ and 40psi+ and things like Speedtech's Project DS9 EVO (92mm stroke, 10000+rpm) seemed to do ok on Q16... not so mention the RIPS 240Z. Do you have any theories on how they work? 

Or are you more saying even more power would be available with an even more exotic fuel, which of course goes without saying haha


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

We've run well over 10,000rpm with a 85mm stroke and 35psi on C16, it ran great and the plugs were always fine, maybe 9500+ rpm and 40+ psi boost with a slightly shorter stroke shows up something we didn't quite get to, very interesting.

Keep us posted mate,

Rob


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> We've run well over 10,000rpm with a 85mm stroke and 35psi on C16, it ran great and the plugs were always fine, maybe 9500+ rpm and 40+ psi boost with a slightly shorter stroke shows up something we didn't quite get to, very interesting.
> 
> Keep us posted mate,
> 
> Rob


Might just be something that our aussie blend cannot tolerate (Roo16). It was not present at 8500, put fresh plugs in with same boost and timing and gave it another 1000rpm. It was evident on this set of plugs, we then drained the fuel and repeated this test with the new fuel and they were clear. We then drained it and refilled with Roo16 and it was back just to confirm it was not just something weird on that power run.

I build engines and im not a tuner but i had it explained in detail by arguably australia's best GTR tuner. Its all about chemistry and physics, strange things happen to molecules when compressed at certain rates. Ill see if i can get some more info if you like.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Sounds like it is Roo related then. Very interesting.


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## Piggaz (Sep 5, 2002)

Paul... Any chance you could explain that in laymans terms with the RPM + boost issues with E85? (even if it is not 100% correct) Very interesting!


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

Piggaz said:


> Paul... Any chance you could explain that in laymans terms with the RPM + boost issues with E85? (even if it is not 100% correct) Very interesting!


it has nothing to do with the ethanol component of the fuel, remember this fuel has a 15% normal 'petrol' in it. As petrol cannot handle high compression without uncontrolled combustion and e85 is a simple mixture and not a compound (the molecules remain intact from their origin and not bond together to form a new structure) the risk of uncontrolled combustion still exists but due to the cooling properties of the ethanol the threshhold is higher. It is also very hard to detect the damage to the engine by regular means as the detenation is at a different frequency to that of petrol. The boys from Vodaphone racing described it to me as more of a vibration hum than a rattle like petrol. In the early days when the Supercars switched to E85 they destroyed an engine with two full load runs on the engine dyno that a normal petrol tuner would have thought sounded ok. They were listening for the wrong thing at the wrong frequency and it vibrated the bearings and flogged out the small ends. The guys who run big static comp and bucket loads of advance on the stuff are going to keep us engine builders busy.

im definately no tuner, chemist or molecular physicst but it makes sense. E85 is an excellent fuel especially the Sucrogen E85 as its a controlled race fuel that is the same consistency with each batch tested, but small steps when tuning and an operator that knows exactly what they are doing is required to take full advantage of the fuels properties without damaging the engine.

BTW, we just made 1071hp at all four wheels at Autosalon on the Gold Coast.!!


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

almost cracking 1100hp - geez paul! 
must be something in those molecules :runaway:

what a beast!


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## bestmpower (Oct 19, 2003)

good numbers mate.

can you post the dyno dynamics graph?

bump.


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## gibson (Feb 21, 2005)

hp figures are good what torque are you getting out of the Nitto 2.7


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Are you saying high pressure & high rpm, cant burn all the fuel in the cylinder fast enough ?


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Are you saying high pressure & high rpm, cant burn all the fuel in the cylinder fast enough ?




Obviously they've nothing to back that claim up, Glenn.


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## .::TopSky::. (Nov 4, 2010)

Love 1000hp skylines that arent stripped down and dont have bodykits, Nice looking car and awsome work on the engine!


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## bestmpower (Oct 19, 2003)

can you post the dyno dynamics graph?


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## Red R Racing (Aug 22, 2009)

Boosted said:


> Obviously they've nothing to back that claim up, Glenn.


the plugs are telling us the story, we are not claiming anything. Its the plugs that we have tuned off and they know more about whats happening inside the engine than any of us.

BTW it rolled 1071AWHP at Autosalon.


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

Red R Racing said:


> the plugs are telling us the story, we are not claiming anything. Its the plugs that we have tuned off and they know more about whats happening inside the engine than any of us.
> 
> BTW it rolled 1071AWHP at Autosalon.


this gtr is a beast paul - all kudo's to Red R Racing :bowdown1:


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Ok,I was thinking additives & flame front propagation, not sure what others were thinking


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

Red R Racing said:


> BTW it rolled 1071AWHP at Autosalon.


Autosalon 2010.wmv - YouTube

May go Nitto,does anyone know if the 2.7 stroker kit is available with 87.5 pistons. I tried to contact them in Australia but no luck.


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

They would be able to do a custom piston; they do a lot of custom pistons for customers. Ask to speak to Andrew.


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

OK great,thanks mate :thumbsup:


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

Get in touch with paul @ red r racing (or jim @ crd)


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