# The Future of Skylines at TOTB???



## Jakester (Sep 27, 2003)

Is there one, are they able to compete at an event such this anymore. It seems to have been a slow decline and, what with this year not even getting on the podium so to speak (200+ club came 3rd), is there much point to the guys risking their cars at an event where they cannot be competetive.

When you consider the bloody awful luck of what happened to Mick Begley's Jun car, and the cost of what it may take to rebuild it, is it really worth it?


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Depends on whether you have fun participating?


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Other teams have moved their game on far more than the Skylines have. Bad luck aside, the Skylines need an all round team - cars and drivers - that can compete in all three disciplines. Without that it will always be a lost cause.


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## tpw (Mar 25, 2006)

Lith said:


> Depends on whether you have fun participating?


That is what I believe its all about. Personal enjoyment.
When you stop enjoying it its time to stop doing it.


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## Moff (Sep 27, 2004)

What happened to Begleys car (apologies for Ignorance)

Moff


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Lots of cars break at events like these, not just Mick's, and not just this event. All part of the game and nothing particular to do with Skylines so no point thinking this would have made any difference this or any other year to this or any other team.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

tpw said:


> That is what I believe its all about. Personal enjoyment.
> When you stop enjoying it its time to stop doing it.


Exactly, its not the winning, its the taking part, people seem to forget that.

The vast majority of cars there KNOW they are not going to win anything, they go because they enjoy it.

Most of the most memorable cars there wasnt the winners, they was cars that was suprisingly fast and interesting for what they were.


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## ChristianR (May 31, 2005)

skylines always have a chance to win, just totb makes it harder for us to do so  Look at keith being outed to drag class, when you get andyf subaru allowed to run in the scooby team!

I thought just the cambelt went on the lemon?


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Skylines seem to do okay at other events such as the HKS Drag Series or the Pro Street Drag Series. They also do very well at Time Attack and have even been known to score points at drifitng in recent times. TOTB is one event out of many and one competition out of many so lets not get too carried away here.


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

yeah but if the cambelt went when it was going on full chat that could leave a nasty mess of the head!!

Skylines alwyas have every chance fo doing well, i think we perhaps suffered more this time round than most but given that 2 of the disciplines were out and out speed related we had a strong team. Just a shame that the fastest of them expired before being able to prove themselves.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

question is, will they allow 35's to run under the "Skyline banner" at future events?


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

No. It's not a Skyline and as the team has been selected as A Skyline Team/Team Skyline (sorry can't remember the name) it wont include Nissan GT-Rs. Otherwise we might as well let the MLR put a few GTRs in their team, plus add one or two to the Soobies team and even perhaps ask the Fords and MR2s if they want GTRs added to their teams :chuckle:


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## Moff (Sep 27, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> Skylines seem to do okay at other events such as the HKS Drag Series or the Pro Street Drag Series. They also do very well at Time Attack and have even been known to score points at drifitng in recent times. TOTB is one event out of many and one competition out of many so lets not get too carried away here.


Probably also worth adding that as they stopped making the cars years ago, their numbers will slowly fall over time. Look at the likes of 240z these days.

Shame, but it will happen..

Moff


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

haha what about Si Norris' new car then? thast running skyline running gear  would he be eligable?


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

ah yes frankinorris good point.


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## tpw (Mar 25, 2006)

Mookistar said:


> question is, will they allow 35's to run under the "Skyline banner" at future events?


Interesting point if it wasn't "Team Skyline" but a "Team GTR" entry?
Afteralll how many non GTR's were entered this year in the team? 

As has been said there is no reason they should do well, look at the good results in other events this year. Issue is do those cars actually wish to enter TOTB?


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## Jason abz (Oct 3, 2002)

R35? Its bound to help the car move on and be competitive in those non competitive disciplines ? Just a thought.


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## hockey-boy (Apr 16, 2006)

the cars that everyone went up against were fully prepaired track cars built by tuners to win and compete and there were a lot of the top time attack cars there.

ZEN, ROGER CLARK, RC all them cars are awesome all round cars and basically dominated.

the money that has gone in to those cars is huge but purpose built.

most of the cars i saw there were really well prepaired cars but what i would class as good trackday cars not purpose built (road legal) race cars. 

no disrespect ment to anyone with that comment either as i really enjoyed watching everyone.

not many of the skylines have been built over here to compete like them until that happens or the ones that have been show up they wont be at the top but maybe next year will be a different issue with the cars that are coming through and hopefully the ones that are out there that didnt compete will come together with the ones that are there now and put the same kind of team together that the top teams have.


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## hockey-boy (Apr 16, 2006)

tpw said:


> As has been said there is no reason they shouldn't do well, look at the good results in other events this year. Issue is do those cars actually wish to enter TOTB?


thats what we need is to get the interest up again and kick some booty :chuckle:


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## Cardiff R33 (Jan 16, 2004)

I thought we were going to have a qualifying session this year like other teams? We seem to have big casulties each year that cost us


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

.... and there are a significant number of good quality cars that aren't interested as well to be fair.


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## RamRod (Apr 28, 2004)

If everyone donates loads of cash to me.. I'll make you a TOTB winner from my car


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

personally i did TOTB as i thought it would be a good shakedown for my new engine, and it proved exactly that, it highlighted some weak points in the cars set up which hopefully i can build on it and make it more of a force to be reckoned with next year rather than "just one of the team" type of thing. 

Its all good experience


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

I think that there are plenty of opportunities for Skylines to do well again at TOTB and Time Attack.

You have to admire how well the winning cars were prepared at TOTB, probably helped by the fact that their manufacturing companies compete at the highest level in Motorsports to develop parts that make the cars handle well and are reliable.

I took the decision to build a Time Attack spec Skyline last year and was disappointed not to have finished the car in time for this years TOTB. Whether it will do well when it is finished is anyone’s guess but for sure it will be allot lighter than my road going R34 that I used in previous years and therefore allot faster.

It is clear that the best Time Attack cars are also the best at TOTB so I guess there is a good guide for what is required.

Gone are the days when a well prepared road car can do well at TOTB, you need a dedicated competition car to do well which also requires dedication and lots of money.

Cheers

Hugh


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

and not a one trick pony...


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## hockey-boy (Apr 16, 2006)

couldnt agree with you more on this.
the spec of the top cars is :bowdown1: 

one of the people i have got to know and fully respect over the last few months is Olly Clark.
that car is absolutely stunning in every way 
but the money that must have gone in to that car to be at the level it is ????????? along with a other cars

but thats what people have to try beat.
so as you say hugh 



Hugh Keir said:


> Gone are the days when a well prepared road car can do well at TOTB, you need a dedicated competition car to do well which also requires dedication and lots of money.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Shame you where looking after your boys last weekend Shane, I am sure you would have got a few more points for the team. I am very happy that Mick and I drove up there, not happy that Mick had to call the AA to get the Lemon home. How many of the other entrances drove to and from TOTB?
Some even arrived in full on race mobile homes, I think that sticking some cars in pro and others are ok is a bit vague to say the least. The rules need to be a bit more unbiased so the road going cars get a chance.







Smokey :thumbsup: 











Smokey


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Next year we need team "GTR" to allow the R35 to do the handling bit


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

I am sure we could do that, just as long as.........
(oh wait a minute let's just not go there shall we!!!)


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## Snowfiend (Jul 11, 2006)

Can...Worms....Don't open


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

David said:


> Next year we need team "GTR" to allow the R35 to do the handling bit


What makes you think a car in developmental infancy can dominate decades of tuning preparation? 
I'm sure there may be 1 or 2 cars that'll be quite quick but they still won't compete with the likes Olly etc, totally different leauge.



totb said:


> Ten of the Best (TOTB) is a performance road car event, aimed at finding the best allround car in Europe. Handling, top speed and the 1/4m drag strip are used to determine the outcome.


The definition of "performance road car" has been tested to the limit and discussed to the Nth degree. The fact remains that cars that are allowed to compete as a road car are far from that but there's no point crying about it as nothing ever gets done. I've said it before and been flamed for it but the "spirit of the event" isn't there for me. Tuner entries are buying a title and he who has the most coin takes the title, failures aside.
I guess my interpretation of a road car differs from that of the event organisers but they make the rules.

Like Hugh, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
To be competetive you'll need to up the game, strip all the weight out of the car and increase the power and reliability. Unfortunately that makes the majority of the private entries unfeasable.

For me personally, the need for an interior etc means I'll never strip the car so won't be able to compete against a tuner running half the weight and twice the power.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

matt j said:


> What makes you think a car in developmental infancy can dominate decades of tuning preparation?


The circuit times the Japanese are already getting out of them compared to skyline GTR's.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2005)

Well I was on the team and really enjoyed my self right until i fell in with heat stroke. As far as i am aware i managed the best overall result for the Skyline team with the highest finish on the handling and top speed. According to the results I was second in drag but i have a time slip which would put me right up the list. Chris is looking into it.

Its hard to say but we need a team of tuners to enter there GTR's not individuals as they have not the will or money to build extreme enough machines. In the skyline world i can see this happening.

Its sad to say the even Ronnie's car would have been down the order quite a bit this year.

Robbie


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

David said:


> The circuit times the Japanese are already getting out of them compared to skyline GTR's.


I think you're missing the point.

Take a fast car like the R35 and put it against a car running twice its power and has been fully sripped and specc'd for the track. I really can't see a private entry paying 50K plus for an R35 then stripping it to the shell, welding in a cage etc etc to be competetive.
I'm not saying the R35 isn't fast, I'm saying it's not in the same league and as stated previously is in it's tuning potential infancy...


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## tpw (Mar 25, 2006)

matt j said:


> I think you're missing the point.
> 
> Take a fast car like the R35 and put it against a car running twice its power and has been fully sripped and specc'd for the track. I really can't see a private entry paying 50K plus for an R35 then stripping it to the shell, welding in a cage etc etc to be competetive.


Agreed 100% Matt.

Face facts, your competing against WRC spec machinery custom built to win events with budgets of £250K+
Taking your back seats out and fitting plastic windows isn't really going to help much. 

Regardless it's great watching the cars running well and people enjoying themselves. You have got to do it for the enjoyment of doing it and being part of a big event.


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## Cardiff R33 (Jan 16, 2004)

i still think with the ring times etc a standardish r35 (or bens GTC modded one hint hint lol) would do better than some of our TOTB skylines. 

Anyway i think the rulls are vague and if we had the duke, keiths car etc in our team not pro drag we would stand a much better chance


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## Jakester (Sep 27, 2003)

Maybe they could incorporate 1 very very simple rule..............you have to drive your vehicle to the event.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

matt j said:


> I think you're missing the point.
> 
> Take a fast car like the R35 and put it against a car running twice its power and has been fully sripped and specc'd for the track. I really can't see a private entry paying 50K plus for an R35 then stripping it to the shell, welding in a cage etc etc to be competetive.
> I'm not saying the R35 isn't fast, I'm saying it's not in the same league and as stated previously is in it's tuning potential infancy...


No think your missing my point, the japanese tuners are already getting very good lap times from the r35 without going to full stripped out racing cars compared to tuned ie fully stripped out r33's ect.

For the handling track you dont need millions of hp


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## Lee_Pendlebury (Nov 18, 2001)

Jakester said:


> Maybe they could incorporate 1 very very simple rule..............you have to drive your vehicle to the event.


That rule never works. You just get people driving it the last mile. The trailer is just incase it breaks down...


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

tpw said:


> Agreed 100% Matt.
> 
> Face facts, your competing against WRC spec machinery custom built to win events with budgets of £250K+
> Taking your back seats out and fitting plastic windows isn't really going to help much.
> ...



I bet no one has spent close to 100K, its only because you include labour time that these price estimates become huge. On that basis my grass track car cost 40k to build, its BS

Its also no where near the standard of WRC cars its got a way to get yet.


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## Mr Disklok (Aug 4, 2006)

Jakester said:


> Maybe they could incorporate 1 very very simple rule..............you have to drive your vehicle to the event.


Hit the nail on the head to make this event more honest! 

I went to the event for the 3rd time this year and felt sorry for the privateers without trailors! As said before they don't stand a chance against the factory boys really. 

Its all good to spectate but the morals of the competition need to be looked at.


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

David said:


> I bet no one has spent close to 100K, its only because you include labour time that these price estimates become huge. On that basis my grass track car cost 40k to build, its BS
> 
> Its also no where near the standard of WRC cars its got a way to get yet.



The RCM impreza HAS has more than that spent on it several times over. Believe me. The quality of the components used in that car are the best money can buy, and quite a few money cant....Total 'spent' on deleveloping that car has easily exceeded that.


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Hasn't the Mines mildly-tweaked R35 GTR already run within spitting distance of the two high-budget UK rally based weapons which went to Revspeed?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

David said:


> No think your missing my point, the japanese tuners are already getting very good lap times from the r35 without going to full stripped out racing cars compared to tuned ie fully stripped out r33's ect.
> 
> For the handling track you dont need millions of hp


Jeez David, I've been driving modified Nissans for the past 13 years and never met anyone quite so blinkered and up Nissan's ar$e.
It's just not going to happen mate, you've obviously neither seen the tiny go-kart style track altered a few years back to favour the rally boys or seen the brutal acceleration the top cars have on the 1/4.

Stop looking through rose tinted glasses and accept the fact that the R35 isn't going to be any different from any other GT-R variant. 
It's still a BIG car that does well on open circuits not go-kart tracks and would still require a tuner style investment to get anywhere near competetive.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Listerofsmeg said:


> The RCM impreza HAS has more than that spent on it several times over. Believe me. The quality of the components used in that car are the best money can buy, and quite a few money cant....Total 'spent' on deleveloping that car has easily exceeded that.



Just because they have nice handmade parts doesnt mean they have cost a fortune. I have seen it several times and I still dont believer you. For me the Zen car is better built and it has had alot of money spent on it, but more importantly lots of time time and the ability to think outside the box is more impressive and not just bolt on the latest expensive JDM tuning part.

For example look at the work DCY have done on there skyline, not hugely costly if you do it yourself, but extremely worth while in creating a light weight rigid chassis. 

Just to prove I dont just talk, and do know what I am doing have a look at the pics attached. Full space frame 320 bhp 205 GTI built by me, nearly every part is a one off from the drive shafts to the aluminium rear hubs with motor cycle calipers. Weighs practically nothing and the rear of the car can be listed of the ground by a single person.

Then the rb30 powered drift car which will be out later in the year.


http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapo...6/oma/10/DC5E0270E97B11DC9E9996F3521FD22D.jpg

http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapo...6/oma/10/37CA3ED0E97C11DCAA81D13F521FD22D.jpg



http://www.magix-photos.com/mediapo...6/oma/10/BD39F3B0758A11DBB5CFB3B6C3D968AA.jpg


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

matt j said:


> Jeez David, I've been driving modified Nissans for the past 13 years and never met anyone quite so blinkered and up Nissan's ar$e.
> It's just not going to happen mate, you've obviously neither seen the tiny go-kart style track altered a few years back to favour the rally boys or seen the brutal acceleration the top cars have on the 1/4.
> 
> Stop looking through rose tinted glasses and accept the fact that the R35 isn't going to be any different from any other GT-R variant.
> It's still a BIG car that does well on open circuits not go-kart tracks and would still require a tuner style investment to get anywhere near competetive.



I think thats a bit overly the harsh as I not even a big r35 fan. I wasn't suggesting an r35 would walk the event or would even be competitive on the 1/4, only that with one on the team it would go round the track quicker than the cars built specifically for 1/4 mile action and help the team score.


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## Shakey Finch (Jul 5, 2005)

I say bring back Rocket Ronnie, he was the only guy with big enough balls to attack all 3 disciplines with great success, that's what piled up the points and took the over all winnings. All the current TOTB GTR drivers just concentrate on the drag, but that's not what TOTB is about!

Team GTR will never win TOTB again unless some of the guys start spreading there skins across to the handling circuit.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2005)

Shakey Finch said:


> I say bring back Rocket Ronnie, he was the only guy with big enough balls to attack all 3 disciplines with great success, that's what piled up the points and took the over all winnings. All the current TOTB GTR drivers just concentrate on the drag, but that's not what TOTB is about!
> 
> Team GTR will never win TOTB again unless some of the guys start spreading there skins across to the handling circuit.


Mate i did all 3 disciplines and so did john and nick.

Robbie


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## Shakey Finch (Jul 5, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Mate i did all 3 disciplines and so did john and nick.
> 
> Robbie


That's 3 then; any more?


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## madmark1 (Mar 27, 2003)

Shakey Finch said:


> I say bring back Rocket Ronnie, he was the only guy with big enough balls to attack all 3 disciplines with great success, that's what piled up the points and took the over all winnings. All the current TOTB GTR drivers just concentrate on the drag, but that's not what TOTB is about!
> 
> Team GTR will never win TOTB again unless some of the guys start spreading there skins across to the handling circuit.


Now there is a true TOTB legend!:bowdown1:


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

Shakey Finch said:


> That's 3 then; any more?


I did too...


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## madmark1 (Mar 27, 2003)

[email protected] said:


> Mate i did all 3 disciplines and so did john and nick.
> 
> Robbie


Having ago at all three, rather than attacking them all is a bit different. No dissrespect but Rocket Ronnie went balls out over everyone!


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## bazh (Aug 22, 2006)

Listerofsmeg said:


> I did too...



as did i. Define attacking.......


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## Listerofsmeg (Jul 4, 2006)

i actually went more than balls out on the handling as that was my primary interest.....i ended up with a large dent in my rear 1/4 for my trouble as i was pushing too hard in a car that i am yet to get to grips with...(a 200 mile drive up the A1 wasnt really sufficient to find out how a car behaves on corners!!)


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## madmark1 (Mar 27, 2003)

In that case you have respect for pushing the limits! 
I didn't see this years TOTB as was away but, the ones I have seen missed that flair.


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## bazh (Aug 22, 2006)

Listerofsmeg said:


> i actually went more than balls out on the handling as that was my primary interest.....i ended up with a large dent in my rear 1/4 for my trouble as i was pushing too hard in a car that i am yet to get to grips with...(a 200 mile drive up the A1 wasnt really sufficient to find out how a car behaves on corners!!)




.....which i must add was most impressive :smokin:


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

David said:


> I think thats a bit overly the harsh as I not even a big r35 fan. I wasn't suggesting an r35 would walk the event or would even be competitive on the 1/4, only that with one on the team it would go round the track quicker than the cars built specifically for 1/4 mile action and help the team score.


It wasn't meant to be harsh, just couldn't get through to you any other way.
You still seem to be under the impression that a new car with great handling characteristics can run against purpose built monsters. It just isn't going to happen in the space of a year and I doubt very much an R35 could take points of the top runners on the totb track.



Shakey Finch said:


> I say bring back Rocket Ronnie, he was the only guy with big enough balls to attack all 3 disciplines with great success, that's what piled up the points and took the over all winnings. All the current TOTB GTR drivers just concentrate on the drag, but that's not what TOTB is about!
> 
> Team GTR will never win TOTB again unless some of the guys start spreading there skins across to the handling circuit.


Rocket drove his car to the limit and even span out on several occassions, awesome to watch as a spectator but the track isn't designed for such a big car. Rocket himself would be miles off the pace with his last spec, he'd need to spend a fortune all over again to become competetive and has probably decided enough is enough. 18K rebuilds back to back takes serious dedication and to but a few isn't worth it. I always admired RR for driving the even in the true spirit - full interior and driven to/from event.

The bar has been pushed to a new level that the privateers cannot reach, simple fact.


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## Snowfiend (Jul 11, 2006)

I dont think anyone could accuse Rocket Ron, Mick Begley or Ron from RK Tuning of not giving it all they had in the previous/early TOTB's in any of the disciplines.

It's easy to sit behind a PC and comment on other peoples results but fair play to anyone who rolls their sleeves up and gives it a go regardless of the outcome.



> The bar has been pushed to a new level that the privateers cannot reach, simple fact.


I'd agree with that too....not many people have the disposable income to keep up with the car standards we're seeing now.


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## Jaffa (Oct 9, 2006)

Is there a separate leaderboard for private entries?


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Define private entry! They can't even decide what's road legal!!!


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## chris singleton (Jul 20, 2005)

Smokey 1 said:


> Shame you where looking after your boys last weekend Shane, I am sure you would have got a few more points for the team. I am very happy that Mick and I drove up there, not happy that Mick had to call the AA to get the Lemon home. How many of the other entrances drove to and from TOTB?
> Some even arrived in full on race mobile homes, I think that sticking some cars in pro and others are ok is a bit vague to say the least. The rules need to be a bit more unbiased so the road going cars get a chance.
> Smokey :thumbsup:
> 
> ...





Cough, Cough, I'm sorry, who had to call the AA? 

And who spent all day on the phone to the incompetent bafoons the following day as well


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## tpw (Mar 25, 2006)

David said:


> I bet no one has spent close to 100K, its only because you include labour time that these price estimates become huge. On that basis my grass track car cost 40k to build, its BS
> 
> Its also no where near the standard of WRC cars its got a way to get yet.


At least 4 cars there were full WRC spec cars. Fact. 3x Scoobs and 1x Evo was a step car.
I know this for a fact as the fella that spanners for me at Time Attack also builds and fixes these on all the WRC rounds so he knows exactly what he is looking at. 

Also when Olly Clark says his car owes him £250K....and knowing the value of parts included in his and others builds its not beyond the realms of possibility some are this and a lot more £££ wise. 
£60K transmissions in a couple of the cars as an example and it soon adds up.

Don't kid yourself about the costs involved with making a competetive package and like some of the entrants out there this year in Time Attack, HKS series and what we saw last weekend it costs an awfull lot of money to be competetive and keep up with the others.

Bloody great to watch though but a bit demoralising if you are trying to compete but on a budget.


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## Raiju (May 18, 2008)

Having fun - that's the simple answer. Don't loose sight of it guys. Look on the gto/300zx/rx7 and so on forums. They never have cars that will threaten any of the top runners, but they have fun, come back as hero's of their marques, and look forward to the next year. I will be looking forward to next year, and hoping that i get to take part this time, but i don't want to do it unless it's going to be fun.

I do agree that money has dominated. It has in drag racing, it is starting to in time attack and it's becoming apparent in totb. Someone has to sort it out so it's fair, buy i don't envy the guy who gets that job.

Take care


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

they should introduce a new system

every single entrant should meet at a location 25 miles from the venue, and they should all drive under thier own power to the venue.

that would eliminate some of the "prepped" cars

mook


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Thjat was suggested three years ago by us (GTROC) - with one location North and one South. All cars would then have to drive on pump fuel to the venue. After all what is the point of being road legal if you can't refuel by the roadside like any other car. Obviously while competing cars would be allowed to use higher octane fuels or other concostions. The idea was cars would be scrutineered the day before and then left in park ferme overnight with security to make sure they weren't tampered with. Anyway the idea was thrown out as too difficult to do!


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## tpw (Mar 25, 2006)

Raiju said:


> Having fun - that's the simple answer. Don't loose sight of it guys. Look on the gto/300zx/rx7 and so on forums. They never have cars that will threaten any of the top runners, but they have fun, come back as hero's of their marques, and look forward to the next year.



Exactly:thumbsup: 
I would happily run at the event as an independant being part of no teams given the chance....having ZERO chance of picking up any points or prizes but just to say I was there and be part of it. It's a cracking event and this one was the best I have been to.

I guess with the Skyline it has a very proud history in this and other events and I guess we all wish to just see it again at TOTB.
Mustn't loose sight of just how well the Skylines are actually doing in other events over here and the things being acheived. Some superb results in Time Attack and the drag series being run at Pod and Shakespeare.

Think we all love our cars and want to see them doing well......which they are.:thumbsup: :clap:


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## Irish GTR (Apr 23, 2007)

Im just after reading this and I feel the need to make this comment.

I was part of Robbie Thorntons crew (TDP Skyline) and I also spoke to and watched Ludders and the Begley boys go through hell to get the cars setup to suit the track and the conditions.

Robbie and John Begley did all 3 events and they put major effort and have big balls to do all 3 events.The times were very good from both these men and their cars.

Why dont some of you back off with some of the negative comments and try congradulating these people for their time and efforts in doing their absolute best and bringing credit to this GTR forum for their achievments.

I saw Robbbie set the car up for the different events,from ripping out the whole back end and swapping things over to go dragging right after the circuit event.he had the balls to do this and he did extremely well as did Ludders and the Begleys.

Too many armchair/keyboard know it alls here who wouldnt have a fecking clue what to do with their cars when facing 3 different events in one day,or who dont have the driving/racing skills to handle big power GTR,s so try giving the Skyline Team some credit and not being negatve.

Put up or shut up,thats what I say.

Well done to team Skyline and well done and thanks to Robbie for a great weekend,also thanks for the spin around Mondello Park in the Evo and GTR yesterday too.Some cars to be hammered around in.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Irish GTR said:


> Why dont some of you back off with some of the negative comments and try congradulating these people for their time and efforts in doing their absolute best and bringing credit to this GTR forum for their achievments.


There is no one negative post here about the competitors, so maybe you should try reading it before you make such comments. Anyone that chooses to compete does so of their own free will I don't see people congratulating people for coming 3rd in Time attack or 2nd at EDC either, even though they too deserve the recognition.


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

Mookistar said:


> they should introduce a new system
> 
> every single entrant should meet at a location 25 miles from the venue, and they should all drive under thier own power to the venue.
> 
> ...


I really think this idea should be reconsidered,this would at least show that your car is really a road car and not some max out,semi roadish,kinda legal vehicle.
As said above the system used needs a revamp to be more fair to all involved,that being said,as skyline owners,we relish the thought to go blasting at any venue anyway,it's for the fun and thrill that we all know and love so much.


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## Irish GTR (Apr 23, 2007)

Lemon is a road going car that is taxed,as is Ludders RB30,as Is Robbies TDP GTR as is Johns Taisan GTR.

if a competitor chooses or whishes to trailer his or her car to an event,then that is their eintilement to do so.Simple as that and end of.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Hey let's be real. You aint gonna change the event that is up to the organisers. So there's no point trying to. As for the original question..... if as most people seem to say, it's about competing, then there is no question to answer. If however it's about winning well I guess that's a different story and requires the will of a lot of people, many of whom are disenfranchised with the event due to past discussions and the organisers who seem likewsie motivated towards Skylines. That's my opinion, it may be wrong, but I suspect not


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Its much simpler than all of this.

Skylineworld is a pretty small puddle really when you think about it. Because of the way the cars work they are also not eligible for most serious motorsports series and when you add in the fact that hardly any were sold officially in this country its amazing that we have as strong and vibrant a society as we do here.

If you take these things into consideration and then work out that firstly Surbaru Imprezas and Mitsubishi Evos are still current cars, competing in their latest guises at the very highest levels of WORLD Motorsport and that alot of this development filters down to the tuners, then add in the fact that they have both been mainstream models in the UK for 10years plus at a much lower price than Skylines ever were and suddenly perhaps the penny will drop as to why there arent as many Skyline tuners, and as many customers with deep pockets prepared to spend on them as there are for the other marques that are winning these events. The only reason Ollys car has had WELL OVER quarter of a mill thrown at it is because there is sufficient custom for their company to recoup this money from paying public. Abbeys would probably have to forgo wages for 3years to be able to spend a similar amount on a GTR and they are just about the biggest commercial skyline tuner.

If there isnt money in it then it will never happen as there is no need for it to. And frankly the people who used to spend the money on skylines are much fewer and far between as they were as the cars have gotten older and therefore less desirable to the types of people with the incomes to afford to invest in them. Guy, Ronnie, Tim, Ged, and Co have all been there, got the T-Shirt, so why keep on, when there are new pastures to play in. Add in the other simple fact that as a six cylinder car the Skyline will always be more expensive to tune, which is also a bummer considering the economies of scale available on parts for Evos and Scoobs and any car with hundreds of thousands of worldwide sales rather than a few thousand in Japan only and you can rapidly start to appreciate the size of the hill any GTR owners is facing to get close to being in the top 10 in any event, let alone winning one with 3 seperate disciplines.

J.


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

Without meaning to cause offence to anyone, do you think a Skyline will ever be good on the TOTB handling circuit ? It looked awfully twisty from Smokeys incar video. Wouldn't a Skylines relatively long wheelbase put it at a natural disadvantage compared to the shorter wheelbase EVO's and Scoobs ? 

Are there any incar vids from the TDP R32 ? One of the most impressive overall packages around it would seem. Particuarly liked that track footage that was on their site recently.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

mambastu said:


> do you think a Skyline will ever be good on the TOTB handling circuit ? It looked awfully twisty from Smokeys incar video. Wouldn't a Skylines relatively long wheelbase put it at a natural disadvantage compared to the shorter wheelbase EVO's and Scoobs ?


Totally correct. Several years ago I was on site at TOTB when it was setting up and Chris pointed out then that the circuit was purposely very tight to make it a more even playing field as the Skylines kept winning at the top speed and quarter mile. I guess he forgot to readjust it now that the boot is on the other foot, so to speak.

When TOTB started we never had Drifitng, Time Attack and things like the the HKS Drag Series or the Pro-street Drag Series. The world of motorsport has moved on, as it has to and there is now much more choice. For that reason I don't think TOTB will ever generate as much interest as it once did


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Irish GTR said:


> Lemon is a road going car that is taxed,as is Ludders RB30,as Is Robbies TDP GTR as is Johns Taisan GTR.
> 
> if a competitor chooses or whishes to trailer his or her car to an event,then that is their eintilement to do so.Simple as that and end of.


Your two posts have made anything I was going to say redundant, so I thought I'd just endorse them  People who criticise trailering a car to a track evidently haven't had much exposure to running high-stressed cars etc. 

There IS a risk you will break something, no matter how well set up and thought out - it is very very inconvenient if you have to organise a trailer when you are there if it does break. If you bring a trailer with you just in case, you may as well put the car on it as bringing two separate vehicles/drivers just for appearances starts getting a little silly.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

we have one trailer, the White went up on the that, myself and Mick followed it up from London at a steady pace, only managed to get a bit naughty when we stopped for fuel.

Some cars are run on the road others are not.







Smokey :smokin:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

TOTB Website said:


> Ten of the Best (TOTB) is a performance road car event


Tax disc aside, some of the cars entered could not be further from that statement.

TOTB has lost it's way.


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## Barrie (Jan 31, 2006)

everyones going on about competeing etc against big budget cars 

Look who won the handling gav (knoxville) - out right no arguements beat ollie far and square in a pretty basic evo 5 rs 430bhp with no more than 15k spent on it - awesome result for gav and a big achievement 

dont get me wrong for quarter and top speed = many thousands £££££££££


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## GTR R34 (Oct 2, 2002)

Maby a fly off handbrake would help whit the thight corners on the handling circuit at totb?
One of the australian gtr has one
Here is what i mean
YouTube - gtr r32 at qr just playing around


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Many of these comments have a familiar ring to them from previous years and bares all the hallmarks of raking over the coals again post TOTB.

Many points are valid, factually correct and so on.

Shane I consider summarised matters well with respect to how the event has set its stall out as a spectacle.

A time attack car will suite the event extremely well because by definition it will have been stripped out to minimise weight to the greatest extent possible. It will be well set up (highly adjustable suspension/geometry) and it will be producing a large amount of torque/power, or at least have very good power/weight ratio.

A light weight car, well set up with good power will do well on quarters and top speed. Take a 'works tuner' car and the power will be well up, so it will do extremely well.

Handling circuit, perhaps not so sensitive to power because it is tight/narrow, so fits the rally car profile of Scoobies and Evo's. So a reasonably set up car with a reasonable amount of power having a driver who manages to get it all together for a run and wallah! Which is what to some degree we got. Of course I suspect Gav was not even in the ballpark for the other events. So what would be the status of the SkylineTime Attacks? Well some of the guys would do well but the nature of the course is that it simply does not 'fit' the Skyline profile and therefore I think a Skyline win on handling has been a non-starter since probably Rocket Ronnies last win if not before. The aim was to give the Scooby and Evo guys something that they would be competitive in, and it succeeded, the problem is that the full race cars now also get the results in the 1/4 and top speed events, so in effect the Skyline is handicapped.

It would take a super special Skyline to get a result, probably one akin to SiNorris approach. Start from weight requirement, maybe complete build from Carbon/Kevlar, full race spec suspension, brakes, big power engine and so, which is OK provided it still basically looks like a Skyline. 

Easy really.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Barrie said:


> everyones going on about competeing etc against big budget cars
> 
> Look who won the handling gav (knoxville) - out right no arguements beat ollie far and square in a pretty basic evo 5 rs 430bhp with no more than 15k spent on it - awesome result for gav and a big achievement
> 
> dont get me wrong for quarter and top speed = many thousands £££££££££



Thats a good point ,not wanting to offend anyone too much but the Guy that won the handling event is obviously a very good driver with good skills and probably years of practice .
Top speed and quarter miles costs £££££ £ ££ as you say but is less skillfull by a long way .


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Bladey's post says it all.

mook


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## Jags (May 20, 2007)

Irish GTR said:


> Im just after reading this and I feel the need to make this comment.
> 
> I was part of Robbie Thorntons crew (TDP Skyline) and I also spoke to and watched Ludders and the Begley boys go through hell to get the cars setup to suit the track and the conditions.
> 
> ...


First of all really sorry for going waaaay of topic here BUT- does anybody know what wheels are on this R32 and the size/offset?


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## Irish GTR (Apr 23, 2007)

Jags said:


> First of all really sorry for going waaaay of topic here BUT- does anybody know what wheels are on this R32 and the size/offset?


Compomotives. 19,s I think.

PM [email protected] here on the forum,as he owns and races this car,so he can tell you exactly.


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2005)

18x10.5 Compomotive MO.


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## Chilli (Jul 16, 2007)

saw them at the show too & wondered the same - thanks for that


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> Totally correct. Several years ago I was on site at TOTB when it was setting up and Chris pointed out then that the circuit was purposely very tight to make it a more even playing field as the Skylines kept winning at the top speed and quarter mile. I guess he forgot to readjust it now that the boot is on the other foot, so to speak.
> 
> When TOTB started we never had Drifitng, Time Attack and things like the the HKS Drag Series or the Pro-street Drag Series. The world of motorsport has moved on, as it has to and there is now much more choice. For that reason I don't think TOTB will ever generate as much interest as it once did


john
why dont you lay off the digs just for once, the actual people who were there and took part enjoyed it and have told us so. for whatever reason the skylines didnt win overall, but the guys who took part brought home trophies in the end, with keith and mick. 

we didnt "forget" anything about the handling, its kept tight n twisty to make it competitive for the majority of the entrants, not just 10 cars which are large and bulky and historically fast in a straight line. Hughs post about building a proper track skyline to compete with sums it up. also mentioned was the fact that a privateer won the handling shootout in a reasonable spec car, not a mega tuner or out and out race car, just a good driver in a good set up car.

as for something mentioned by john earlier in the thread (incorrectly), the new skyline R35 would be welcome at the event, either in a team skyline or out of it, upto the team reps that one, if they dont want them on the team (assuming an R35 owner wanted to enter a competitive car) then they could be entered as in invited car and wouldnt affect any team points that way.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Chris, I think the point John was making about the R35 is that it couldn't enter in a Skyline team because it isn't a Skyline.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

i understand the point being made, but the team skyline moniker is open for the team reps to decide what can/cant go in, in theory they can choose one or an rb engined car/different shell ie kit car if they wish, thats all i was trying to get over, they can choose what they want to. R35 may well go into a seperate slot as invited or another team if ten of them wanted to enter.

the handling cct issue isnt one to us or anyone else, other teams just got on with it.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> john
> why dont you lay off the digs just for once, the actual people who were there and took part enjoyed it and have told us so. for whatever reason the skylines didnt win overall, but the guys who took part brought home trophies in the end, with keith and mick.
> 
> we didnt "forget" anything about the handling, its kept tight n twisty to make it competitive for the majority of the entrants, not just 10 cars which are large and bulky and historically fast in a straight line. Hughs post about building a proper track skyline to compete with sums it up. also mentioned was the fact that a privateer won the handling shootout in a reasonable spec car, not a mega tuner or out and out race car, just a good driver in a good set up car.
> ...


Chris,

I'm not having a dig, maybe you should read what I have written with some calm indifference and you will see it is true. You and I did discuss the handling circuit and you did say it was purposely twisty and tight to make it harder for the cars doing well at top speed and quarter mile to compete at the level and make it a more even competition. At that time the Skylines were leading the field by some way so your marks were clearly directed at the Skylines. But to be honest I'm past caring because, as I've said the world of grass rootes motorsport has moved on with other events now.

By the way you will find I have not criticised nor tried to diminish in any way the performance of any of the competitiors, beit Skyline or other. I'm gald that everyone had a good time competing and have never said otherwise!

And just so you know, because clearly you don't. This is a picture of the new Nissan Skyline:









The car above is NOT a GT-R and never will be. So for Team Skyline to have GT-Rs in it we might as well let everyone pick and choose what they want to run. Why not let the Supras run some MR2s, after all they're both Toyotas and share none of the same components, in the same way that the Nissan Skyline and Nissan GT-R share none of the same components, and not even the same name! So for Team Skylines, the R35 GTR shouldn't be eligable, plain and simple.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

john- sorry but you dont pick the team, other people do, you have your opinions , no prob with that. lets leave the team selection to them. cheers


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> john- sorry but you dont pick the team, other people do, you have your opinions , no prob with that. lets leave the team selection to them. cheers


The perhaps you will stop accusing me of applying criticisms that I have not made! For the record I have NEVER been involved in selecting the team at any time in the events history. As for team slection I wish the team well but remember it is a Skyline team.


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

I am flattered to have built what people consider to be a "big budget" car, when in reality it cost less than a new bog standard GTR!


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

TOTB seems a bit to silly now ,used to be fun ,now it is semi pro serious with rules no one agrees on .Not like it's a bench mark for motor sport or anything and this time of year it causes more arguments than it's worth +it's run at Elvington


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

stealth said:


> TOTB seems a bit to silly now ,used to be fun ,now it is semi pro serious with rules no one agrees on .Not like it's a bench mark for motor sport or anything and this time of year it causes more arguments than it's worth +it's run at Elvington



I doubt that TOTB was originally thought up to find a new bench mark for motor sport as you put it. It is aimed as a club event where 10 of the best cars compete club against club, I am not sure what happened behind the scene with John Fuggles and Chris Mann but this seems to have tainted the event on this forum. This year was my first time competing and I enjoyed every minute of it, I am sure you would too if you gave it a go.

As for comments about an R35 in the team and cleaning up? WTF
Does anyone know a 1/4 mile time for a R35 ?
Clean up on the handling circuit, I doubt it very much. Watch my in car footage it ain't 3rd and 4th gear corners ie the Top Gear test track.
Get one in the team for next year and lets see how well it performs until then we are all guessing.

Can you name another venue where this could all take place in the same day?




Smokey :smokin:


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

the "rules no one agrees on " comes from where? we havent had any objections to tyres/cars this year or last from any competitor. 

not one team rep had an issue this year that we know of with any of the classes or regs, and each year we speak to them about any proposals. most of the competitors appear to have enjoyed it tremendously this year, and now other people who didnt take part appear to be having a pop for something to do after the fact.

if you've been watching the forum this year you'll have noticed an absence of bitching threads and argument, before and after the event, it didnt happen because the people involved didnt feel the need, so why start now?

the skyline team is nothing to do with the gtroc soley, its now an open team run by a few people, without any infighting or bitching. same will apply next year, if any R35s enter thats great, if not no problem. people with low budget cars won classes and shootouts at the event proving its still the driver not just the car that matters.


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

I would of loved to enter totb this year as it would be great fun going up against the likes of all the other marques. I did try to enter but i guess it was to late. The skyline lot done well a couple of years ago and there has been alot of advance's in skyline tuning since then. I believe one year we will be able to take the title.

We should deffinatly do a Skyline shootout to get the right cars and drivers. Even the shootout would make my day. A whole event aimed at getting the best of skylines there are in the country. I know i wouldn't make it through the shootout but i would have great fun trying. I would rag the crap out of my car to get the best out of it for the skyline name even if it goes home on the back of an AA truck.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Madden said:


> I would of loved to enter totb this year as it would be great fun going up against the likes of all the other marques. I did try to enter but i guess it was to late. The skyline lot done well a couple of years ago and there has been alot of advance's in skyline tuning since then. I believe one year we will be able to take the title.
> 
> We should deffinatly do a Skyline shootout to get the right cars and drivers. Even the shootout would make my day. A whole event aimed at getting the best of skylines there are in the country. I know i wouldn't make it through the shootout but i would have great fun trying. I would rag the crap out of my car to get the best out of it for the skyline name even if it goes home on the back of an AA truck.


Hat off to you Madden or is that Madone ?
That's what it is all about, entering enjoying and getting the best out of your car as you possibly can.

Skyline shootout

two votes




Smokey :thumbsup:


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

... and i believe him!

He set his car on fire trying to catch Fee at Silverstone LOL


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Hey i was in front of her. 


It should be a proper totb shootout involving all aspects. Not just top end and drag. Do the whole event for just skyline's so that we can get the all round best of the crop. If i get beaten in an event i will just beat whoever is better then me up so i can get to the show

Im up for showing the scooby boys what determination means. **** it i would even crash into them.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Madden said:


> Hey i was in front of her.
> 
> 
> It should be a proper totb shootout involving all aspects. Not just top end and drag. Do the whole event for just skyline's so that we can get the all round best of the crop. If i get beaten in an event i will just beat whoever is better then me up so i can get to the show
> ...



Jezzzzzzz, easy tiger and stop posting when you have just got in from the pub  




Smokey :smokin:


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

gav renshaw in a private evo proved the point that its not the mega budget tuner cars that win regardless, talent and a well sorted car won the handling shootout.


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

i don't suppose the other teams would moan,why should they when there running cars that have no resembles to road cars like methanol powered Subaru's and cut and shut evos
but when a skyline pushes the limits of drag cars as Kieth did the other year He's banned from running for a team
the reason no one on here bitches about it is it's just a waste of time,it seems as though totb doesn't mind if it upsets the gtr club/skylines but NO WAY DO THEY WANT TO UPSET SOME OF THE OTHER CLUBS that's why nobody really talks about it on here because it's just to political.
i wounder what would happen if a WRC TEAM decided to enter as a private would then start to moan from the other clubs team I'm sure one or two


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

totb has no issue whatsoever with the GTROC or any skyline club, lets make that clear. all the skyline clubs are able to put forward cars if they wish.
to save any arguing/bitching this year team skyline was sorted by a few knowledgable people form the skyline world who volunteered to do so. it worked and the same format will happen next time, anyone can enter if their skyline is upto it. if people want to enter a skyline they will, if not they wont. after the fact now others are trying to start arguments that didnt exist.


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Yea sorry that the Stella talking the lady is gonna get it. 

Is there any regs for totb. I.e what road cars vrs pro cars are? If the other teams get away with cars like that then it isn't fair but i will still go up against them and show them what its all about.

It isn't all about money, shit i have none . Its all about the drivers abillity, proven by tne guy in the evo that won the handlimng circuit.

Lets set a date for the shoot out


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

plenty of time for qualifying for next season


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> gav renshaw in a private evo proved the point that its not the mega budget tuner cars that win regardless, talent and a well sorted car won the handling shootout.



Thats just what I said in a previous post about a good good driver on a handling track,going back to what you said ealier Chris ,dose that mean that r35's can compete next year ? and if so under what banner.


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Whats the sig all about stealth? Bit stange to me?


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Madden said:


> Whats the sig all about stealth? Bit stange to me?


It's a long story


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

ok i will leave it to you mate.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> the skyline team is nothing to do with the gtroc soley, its now an open team run by a few people, without any infighting or bitching. same will apply next year, if any R35s enter thats great, if not no problem


Yes and no.

Yes it is not a GTROC team. Neither is it a SOC team but hey let's not go there 
But the R35 *IS NOT a Skyline*!!!!
For the second time of stating. The following is a picture of a Skyline and *IS NOT* and R35 nor is it a GTR. The two cars are completely different in every respect: chassis, engine, body, suspension, etc etc etc


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

john- why do you keep banging on about the same pedantic thing? as we keep stating its nothing to do with you how the team is selected or made up, you have no influence on who competes or who doesnt.

no one has actually asked to enter one of those cars and so next year the atual team selectors can pick what the heck they like, it may well be none of those cars enter anyway! 

anyway, to re-iterate to anyone else who maybe thinks incorrectly that TOTB are anti skyline , which we are not, anyone is welcome to enter as normal. any of the skyline guys who took part this year will confirm they were encouraged and treated in the same way as any other club or group. from speaking to the actual skyline competitors they enjoyed it and wanted to come back. anyone can ask mick begley, john begley, jeff , anthony etc if they wish to see if they felt anything anti skyline.

the handling circuit itself was ultra competitive and was designed to give a fair chance to all the field, while allowing a few slower bends for safety flags if a car span out in front. we are also required to try and keep tyre squeal to a minimum as part of the noise control issues there. it was the longest course yet as seen by some people taking a minute to finish.

the multi car timing system allowed 2 or 3 cars out at once and this kept the queues to a minimum. most of the top ten or more handling cars are very well set up and very well driven, to actually finish top ten is an achievment in itself and not a "right". most of the top ten drivers got all their 5 runs in without problems, and practise did make perfect.

top 20 handling for comparison;
No.	Name	Car	Time
B1	Duncan Cowper	DAX Rush Turbo	47.703
C61	Gavin Renshaw	Mitsubishi EVO 5 RS	47.797
C66	Olly Clarke	RCM Subaru Impreza	48.484
B2	Stu Blackery	Westfield Cosworth	48.531
C65	John Stevenson	Subaru Impreza	48.719
C60	Jason Hulbert	Mitsubishi EVO 4	48.891
C55	Martyn Green	Mitsubishi EVO 5 RS	48.906
C59	Phillip Young	Mitsubishi EVO 6 GSR	49.000
C57	Clive Seddon	RC Developments EVO 6	49.391
C64	Paul Blamire	ZEN Subaru Impreza	49.422
C62	Paul North	Mitsubishi EVO 8	49.453
C56	Paul Martin	Mitsubishi EVO 6 GSR	49.641
B39	Phil English	Lotus 211	50.390
B42	Craig Dolby	Lotus Elise Type R	50.531
C72	Gulli Halldorsson	Team Ice Subaru impreza	50.828
C69	Dale Howard	Subaru Impreza	50.844
B18	Daniel Lark	Nissan 200 SX	50.891
C53	Simon Norris	Norris Designs EVO	50.937
B7	Jack Frost	Holeshot Racing DAX	51.172
B33	Paul Norris	lotus Sunbeam Cosworth	51.250


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

another point of interest to actual competitors rather than keyboard warriors is that 3 cars managed to score a top ten finish on all 3 events, proving again the actual overall trophy is won by top all-round cars, not just "one trick" cars anymore, thats what the drag shootouts are for.
top 8 on points
C66	Olly Clarke	RCM Impreza Team Subaru
C57	Clive Seddon	RC Developments EVO 6	MLR
C64	Paul Blamire	ZEN Impreza	Team Subaru
C52	Adrian Smith	Fensport Celica 200+ Club
B1	Duncan Cowper	DAX Rush Turbo 200+ Club
C61	Gavin Renshaw	EVO 5 RS	MLR
C63	Andy Forrest	AFP Impreza	Team Subaru
B30	Stephen Ross Ford Granada Twin Turbo TurboSports-Retro


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> john- why do you keep banging on about the same pedantic thing? as we keep stating its nothing to do with you how the team is selected or made up, you have no influence on who competes or who doesnt.
> 
> .... to re-iterate to anyone else who maybe thinks incorrectly that TOTB are anti skyline , which we are not, anyone is welcome to enter as normal. any of the skyline guys who took part this year will confirm they were encouraged and treated in the same way as any other club or group. from speaking to the actual skyline competitors they enjoyed it and wanted to come back. anyone can ask mick begley, john begley, jeff , anthony etc if they wish to see if they felt anything anti skyline.


Your point is well made though the anti-Skyline sentiment you acuse me of is not justified. I merely responded to a question about how difficult it is for "big cars like Skylines" to compete in ther handling circuit and in my response merely quoted what you had said to me several years earlier when you were setting up the circuit. They were not my words, they were yours. I was just answering the question using information I had obtained from you; nothing more.

And as for the pedanticism you accuse me of it's not picky to say that the two cars are 100% completely different. Far from it.


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## boppa (May 31, 2006)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> john- why do you keep banging on about the same pedantic thing? as we keep stating its nothing to do with you how the team is selected or made up, you have no influence on who competes or who doesnt.
> 
> no one has actually asked to enter one of those cars and so next year the atual team selectors can pick what the heck they like, it may well be none of those cars enter anyway!


John is not banging on about same pedantic things , he is just making a point that *Team Skyline* , whoever picks the team will pick Skylines, and as such a R35 is not a Skyline so will not qualify for *Team Skyline*

Or are you saying that Team Skyline is just a name and as such can have any model of car in that team ? , if so then it is not really a Marque against Marque competition


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

john i was replying to the other poster who was insinuating that we were being anti skyline, when we are plainly not, sorry if that wasnt clear in my reply. 
i think a fair discussion of why the skylines havent placed highly on the handling cct for a couple of years is fine, however the thread is being hijacked by people who didnt compete or attend and who appear to be making waves for the sake of it this year. there hasnt been any slagging/bitching or moaning from any skyline competitors/reps this year and everyone enjoyed it from the feedback we have. the reasons why skylines arent winning other events than the drag shootouts are more involved and nothing to do with us.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Fuggles said:


> pedanticism


Surely, you mean Pedantry?




FPMSL.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

and to clarify yet again, Team skyline is picked by a fair few skyline enthusiasts who decide the team, not us. if they wanted to enter an RB powered kit car in theory they can, its their choice, however common sense says they will pick from whatever comes forward and is right for the team.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> john i was replying to the other poster who was insinuating that we were being anti skyline, when we are plainly not, sorry if that wasnt clear in my reply.


Thank you for clarifying.

Team Skyline should be Skylines. Its in the name to change the name to suit the politics of the selectors would be disingenuous to the principles of the team competition.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

What I would like to know is that if the GTROC were a seperate item again on TOTB then the gtr 35 could be enterd as per it's title of club ,but wth it being team Skyline I presume it might not be able to .Some may think it's no big deal ,but as from next year the 34 will be 10 years old and it would be the latest model to enter under that team name ,meaning other teams like Evo,Scooby etc can have up to date cars (if they wish) .Under those rules if they do exclude the 35 then it seems things wont get any better and only worse for the GTR?Skyline ? .All teams need to trickle in new models at some point


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

i think we can leave the team make up point now for next year, nothing will be done in terms of entries and cars anyway now until Jan 2009, and the selectors can only pick from people who put themselves forward anyway so it may be a mute point. 
as long as people are aware that all skyline drivers are welcome to enter if they wish without prejudice thats fair enough. Hugh's track car may well be the talking point for handling events in terms of skylines next year anyway going by the spec of it.


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## boppa (May 31, 2006)

If there were to be Team GTR then without a doubt a R35 would qualify , I would have thought.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

stealth said:


> What I would like to know is that if the GTROC were a seperate item again on TOTB then the gtr 35 could be enterd as per it's title of club ,but wth it being team Skyline I presume it might not be able to .Some may think it's no big deal ,but as from next year the 34 will be 10 years old and it would be the latest model to enter under that team name ,meaning other teams like Evo,Scooby etc can have up to date cars (if they wish) .Under those rules if they do exclude the 35 then it seems things wont get any better and only worse for the GTR?Skyline ? .All teams need to trickle in new models at some point



you posted just before me. there are no rules relating to age/make or model for any club or group. the team selectors have free reign to make up their ten cars as they see fit. the MLR for instance would have included si norris with his evo had it been ready, that is quite a way from being a standard evo.

if someone with the new skyline model or the R35 comes forward they wil be welcome anyway, as long as its upto spec, but until that day arrives this is all pointless worrying for nothing.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

boppa said:


> If there were to be Team GTR then without a doubt a R35 would qualify , I would have thought.





Exactly ! if the 35 was out 2 years ago it would have been under the GTROC ,just because of a team name change it cant


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

please all note the OFFICIAL line:- there are no restrictions on ANY cars entering the event, either as part of team skyline or an invited cars. surely we have made this clear enough now.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

I recon with three more tries I could have got into the 50 sec bracket.
Did the 5 attempt rule stop when the que had shortened ie after 2pm, could I then of had unlimited runs to better my times?
I know I missed out having a second go at the top speed run due to time.

Thanks



Smokey :smokin:


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

hi john 
the track was opened up after 2pm as many people had already done their 5 runs at that point. this was mentioned at the driver briefing. out of the skyline team i dont think many people actually went hard at the cct, other than maybe yourself, in comparison to how some teams approached it. the scoobys had a few cars sat on there all morning who then switched to the drag after lunch. others went the opposite way around. rcm set up their suspension for the handling , then altered it after lunch to suit drag/top speed for instance. RC Developments were leading overall uptill around 2pm having scored on all 3 events when Olly re-appeared on the drag strip to do those runs.


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

top4 - Time Attack cars 

Thats clearly where the Skyline team needs to look for ideas. There are prob too many cars on the team that arent capable allrounders.

The Lemon for instance... did or was it going to do the handling course?


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

didnt run on handling as a problem occurred early on in the day :-(


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

fair to say also the scoobies won points across all 3 events:
Club	Circuit	Flyers	Quarters Total
Team Subaru	15	14	30	59
MLR	23	14	10	47
200+ Club	17	7	6	30
Team Skyline  9	9


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

yup.... thats why I asked 'did or was it'? Did mick plan to run it?

4 cars that would have been nice to have seen in the team.....

RK
Darren Bly (smashed  )
Shane Smith
Mark Biggars


But i suspect they had there reasons for not entering or other commitments.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

the top cars on the list are lightweight or rally cars.

the Skylines are neither of these. I think we just have to admit the event has evoled in a direction the Skylines can't expect to dominate.

just to clarify Chris point about the 35, if ive got it right, theam names are just that. best example would be 200+ club. any marque and make.

so, in theory, Conrad could come along in his Noble and fly under the GTR banner.

Mook


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

So for next year then I think we should try and see if Simon Norris is willing to join the Skyline Team I also think we should talk to Dunca Cowper as his Dax always does well. And while we're at it there are a few people on here with GT3s and similar perhaps they should be part of Team Skyline. Maybe Harry would be interested in adding his weight to the team then?


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

I think it is safe to say Mick in the Lemon would have achieved his aim at the top speed but due to engine damage never got chance. Also in the 1/4 mile would have run close to Olly's time. He was planning to run on the handling circuit.
With all respect to the four cars you mentioned Adam I don't think one of them could have beaten Olly all round or Mick on the 1/4 mile or top speed.

I do however think that the Time Attack, track based GTR's that entered did well and more of these type of cars in the team for next year should see a lot more points gathered.






Smokey :smokin:


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Fuggles said:


> So for next year then I think we should try and see if Simon Norris is willing to join the Skyline Team I also think we should talk to Dunca Cowper as his Dax always does well. And while we're at it there are a few people on here with GT3s and similar perhaps they should be part of Team Skyline. Maybe Harry would be interested in adding his weight to the team then?


John you are just being silly now, The R35 may have dropped the Skyline badge but I think we all know where it has evolved from



Smokey


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## Jakester (Sep 27, 2003)

It seems pretty clear that the Subaru's and Evo's have come a long way in the past few years, and, are now clearly a match for Skylines in the 1/4 mile and top speed. IF, and I reiterate IF the handling circuit was redesigned 3 years ago to "level the playing field" so the rallyesque cars could score big points and make the results a lot closer, maybe it should be looked at in order to give the larger cars a fair crack at the whip, and, once again have a fairly even competition, lets be honest, if the Subaru's, Evo's Dax's etc are that quick around such a tight circuit, then they should be just as quick around something a little wider/longer. With a handling circuit design that is a little more sympathetic to the larger cars you would be bringing the Vipers, Supra's, S14's etc into the fray and could then have a truley open competition that could actually be decided by a few 10th's, now that would be a crowd pleaser.


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## boppa (May 31, 2006)

I think John has a point . If it is going to be team skyline then it has to be a skyline surely. If it is going to be team GTR then it has to be a GTR , that was part of the reason I believe that team Skyline evolved as it was rumoured that GTS models would be excluded.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

100% the 35 should be in if anyone wants to run one ,bloody stupid not too ,whats the point with no future cars coming through ,team Skyline will look like a vintage car entry in a few years time .Ok so the GTROC is not a stand alone entry anymore at TOTB ,it's about time we moved on from that now it's been over a year now. I would have thought most people at the GTROC would welcome the 35 ,very strange this is not the case .


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## GTR R34 (Oct 2, 2002)

Has anyone ever tought about a top chop?
The american hot rodders and the vw crowd have done this many time plus i think the new gtr r35 schould be welcome as the new choice for the team at totb.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Smokey 1 said:


> The R35 may have dropped the Skyline badge but I think we all know where it has evolved from


Not it didn't, that's complete rubbish! The R30 through to R34 are second generation Skylines being based around the RB26 with a simple chassis that evolved over time. The R35 GTR was a totally new concept in terms of engine chassis, overal design and even in it's core objectives. If you look at the origial demands for the Skyline it was to build a saloon car the premium version of which would be the GTR. The Skyline GTR itself being designed as a track car first and foremost evloving out of the Skyline brand. The GTR is a new car in every way and as such has a different design philosophy, that being to be an every day car with the ability to track it and, at the same time, only very limited tuning capabilities. Perhaps you forget that I know very well the Chief Designer of the R34, some of the designers of the R33 and have met on several occaions Nissans Head of Product Planning, the Chief Designer for the R35 GTR, Nissans GVP Marketing and Head of GTR Development and Nissan Head of Sports Cars. I have spoken at considerable length to all of these at various times and have even exchanged emails and phone calls with them to discuss thes cars at considerable length.

Stealth: no-one is saying R35s should not be there. The GTR Register has been involved in TOTB since way before some of the other forums that are now involved were even created. What we are saying is that Team Skyline should be for Skylines as thats the neame of the team and thats what the team represents, plain and simple. This is the same for the MLR, I don't see that they would be enter VR6s, or perhaps the Ford RS team enter Cosworth Vauxhall or a Lotus Exige.


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

Without going into design issues and philosophy John, come on man the R34 is dated compared to the new generation of super cars and the R35 must be Nissan's new approach but there are still quite a lot of common design influences in the two. As Chris said if a owner of the new R35 wanted to run for the team and is capable of producing good times then surly the team selector's would give it a chance to run




Smokey :smokin:


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Fuggles said:


> Not it didn't, that's complete rubbish! The R30 through to R34 are second generation Skylines being based around the RB26 with a simple chassis that evolved over time. The R35 GTR was a totally new concept in terms of engine chassis, overal design and even in it's core objectives. If you look at the origial demands for the Skyline it was to build a saloon car the premium version of which would be the GTR. The Skyline GTR itself being designed as a track car first and foremost evloving out of the Skyline brand. The GTR is a new car in every way and as such has a different design philosophy, that being to be an every day car with the ability to track it and, at the same time, only very limited tuning capabilities. Perhaps you forget that I know very well the Chief Designer of the R34, some of the designers of the R33 and have met on several occaions Nissans Head of Product Planning, the Chief Designer for the R35 GTR, Nissans GVP Marketing and Head of GTR Development and Nissan Head of Sports Cars. I have spoken at considerable length to all of these at various times and have even exchanged emails and phone calls with them to discuss thes cars at considerable length.
> 
> Stealth: no-one is saying R35s should not be there. The GTR Register has been involved in TOTB since way before some of the other forums that are now involved were even created. What we are saying is that Team Skyline should be for Skylines as thats the neame of the team and thats what the team represents, plain and simple. This is the same for the MLR, I don't see that they would be enter VR6s, or perhaps the Ford RS team enter Cosworth Vauxhall or a Lotus Exige.


If someone wants to enter a r35 next year they are quite welcome. Keith and I will be picking the team again with no arguments. We are calling it TEAM NISSAN GT.

Cheers.


Mick


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Actually there are no design influences between the two at all. I have met Nakamura-san several times and would consider myself a friend of Tamura-san having met the man on numerous occasions both here and in Japan (in fact on every trip to the UK he calls up to arrange a meeting).

There is nothing the same and the philosophy is totally different. To fully appreciate the differences you have to understand the marketing rationale behind why Nissan decided to give the Skyline name to the G35 then G37 which, after all is a sports saloon car. In which case they would of course run for the team but, as team competitions go how would you feel if the others just chose whatever they wanted and started quoting (incorrectly) heritage, etc. etc. It's already hilarious when you read the 350ZOC now rebranding to Nissansportz :chuckle: to allow themselves the include GTRs because "_they both share many of the same components such as engine chassis etc."_ :chairshot (that was in a magazine article on of their management people wrote). :runaway: 


_NOTE: I have rewritten the last piece of this thread in deference to Mick's post as he was writing his response as I was mine._

However to have a comment like "Keith and I will be picking the team" is completely at odfds with Chris' comment of how the team was selected by a large group of people from across the Skyline community. I'm not decrying what you achieved this year Mick and know you did a great job but will you and Chris at least get your messages consistent. Oh and you'll be allowing GTiRs to apply for the team as well then?


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## Smokey 1 (Nov 1, 2005)

For me it is all about taking part, entering to win something will end in tears none of us hear have a million pound budget. Driving your car to the limit and trying as hard a possible to better your times. A few of the entrants sent there cars home on trailers due to breakages and now will have to get monies together to fix them but they where prepared to give it there all and should have be given respect for doing so, instead of reading negative comments about the event and the teams final standing.

Maybe more Skyline owners would come forwards if this forums users where not so negative about the event.


Anyway without getting into silly arguments, the Taisan will be back again for TOTB next year. Over the winter I plan to put her on a diet and now with the tweaks that John Edwards has done to the suspension set up I will be looking to beat my pb 1/4 mile and be more competitive in what I class as a club event.






Smokey :smokin:


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## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2005)

Back to the handling issue. I was the fastest Skyline around the handling course on my 4 th run. I did a 51.3 i think. At that stage i was about 15th and thought that i was quick enough to be the quickest skyline around a course designed for way smaller cars. I would agree with John Begley that a New R35 would have been even worse than a full weight R34 @ 500 bhp as its heavier and bigger and in places the track was so tight a old type mini was needed.

So I went to the drag strip for 1 run before lunch and ran a 10.5.

I should have gone back to the handling and may have gotten a 50s flat run on my 6th or 7th run. This still would not have gotten me into the top 10 so i thought it was not worth it.

I concentrated on the drag and top speed. As far as i am aware i was second skyline in drag and first in top speed. I was happy with this.

It took so much out of me that i ended up with heat stroke and have missed a whole week of work since. But i did enjoy it.



Robbie


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> So for next year then I think we should try and see if Simon Norris is willing to join the Skyline Team I also think we should talk to Dunca Cowper as his Dax always does well. And while we're at it there are a few people on here with GT3s and similar perhaps they should be part of Team Skyline. Maybe Harry would be interested in adding his weight to the team then?


john
you are really getting silly and petty with this now. how about giving it a rest.
why you are getting your knickers in a twist is beyond most people. let the team selectors pick the team.


for anyone else who can see a sensible point- 

hugh, keith and mick plus anyone else they wish to rope in to help will be picking the team next year. its completely upto them how they do so. normal logical people will expect to see the team made up of skylines in some shape or form, just as the MLR was made up of evos etc etc.

if someone with the new R35 gtr comes forward and is quick enough logic says they would be offered a place, no one else gives an arse to this extent really i suspect.

same applies to any other rb or similar powered car ie R32/33/34 etc, the lads would judge them on their merits. its not that hard and no one else is trying to make it so.

after all that if having the non "skyline" R35 in a team offends john sorry but its tough s**t if thats what the team reps want. they arent at odds with us if they do so, or if they dont, we really could care less as long as the quickest skylines/gtrs/gtst's etc are included. lets give "next years" team selection a rest now until people are actually ready to come forward eh?


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

as far as handing goes rather than arguing the toss about a team makeup yet to happen, these were the cars in 10th-20th places. the lotus 211 and elise type R were both n/a and 200-240bhp max. the lotus sunbeam is 25yrs old design and has a 20+yr old design engine in it. the 200sx isnt massive bhp , and dale howard has a 450-500bhp scooby and probably couldnt get in the main scooby team on prior performance. none of the lighter weight track setup fwd cars came in under 52s a lap so it obviously didnt suit fwd alone. 



C64	Paul Blamire	ZEN Subaru Impreza	49.422
C62	Paul North	Mitsubishi EVO 8	49.453
C56	Paul Martin	Mitsubishi EVO 6 GSR	49.641
B39	Phil English	Lotus 211	50.390
B42	Craig Dolby	Lotus Elise Type R	50.531
C72	Gulli Halldorsson	Team Ice Subaru impreza	50.828
C69	Dale Howard	Subaru Impreza	50.844
B18	Daniel Lark	Nissan 200 SX	50.891
C53	Simon Norris	Nrris Designs EVO	50.937
B7	Jack Frost	Holeshot Racing DAX	51.172
B33	Paul Norris	lotus Sunbeam Cosworth	51.250


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

Fuggles said:


> Actually there are no design influences between the two at all. I have met Nakamura-san several times and would consider myself a friend of Tamura-san having met the man on numerous occasions both here and in Japan (in fact on every trip to the UK he calls up to arrange a meeting).
> 
> There is nothing the same and the philosophy is totally different. To fully appreciate the differences you have to understand the marketing rationale behind why Nissan decided to give the Skyline name to the G35 then G37 which, after all is a sports saloon car. In which case they would of course run for the team but, as team competitions go how would you feel if the others just chose whatever they wanted and started quoting (incorrectly) heritage, etc. etc. It's already hilarious when you read the 350ZOC now rebranding to Nissansportz :chuckle: to allow themselves the include GTRs because "_they both share many of the same components such as engine chassis etc."_ :chairshot (that was in a magazine article on of their management people wrote). :runaway:
> 
> ...


Considering your signature, Mr Chairman, you do make yourself sound like a child having a tantrum about not having their own way. 
Shouldn't you set a better example to the forum? It's quote obvious to anyone reading this thread that this is just sour grapes about the totb fascicle/history! 

:GrowUp:


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Not having a tantrum at all, and this has nothing to do with history. If I am not entitled to my own opinion then I will happily resign from the club in the capacity. I would nominate you for the poisition as you seem to believe that I am not entitled to my own views; that is, if you became a member.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

we've made the official position more than clear now and will leave it at that.


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

i say well done john for fighting our corner
totb will never agree with the gtroc because we dare to question some of the stupid rules and classifications,thats why people are not really bothered anymore,because it,s lost it,s true meaning of finding the ten fastest road cars in the uk.
but most road cars run on methanol dont thay??????but it,s got an MOTso there for it,s a road car so it can run for the Subaru team
but if you dare to question this your seen as a argumentative:GrowUp:


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Can we wind down the top speed and 1/4 mile and concentrate on these courses instead? Elvington Park west track starts where the finish line for the top speed run used to be in previous years and Elvington Park East Start and turn 9 are the start and end of the 1/4 mile at TOTB.
The handling course at TOTB has always been tight and favoured lightweight two seaters and rally (type) cars but those same cars still beat skylines on big open tracks as well!


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

nismoman said:


> i say well done john for fighting our corner
> totb will never agree with the gtroc because we dare to question some of the stupid rules and classifications,thats why people are not really bothered anymore,because it,s lost it,s true meaning of finding the ten fastest road cars in the uk.
> but most road cars run on methanol dont thay??????but it,s got an MOTso there for it,s a road car so it can run for the Subaru team
> but if you dare to question this your seen as a argumentative:GrowUp:


you are delusional i'm afraid if you really do think you need john "fighting your corner" with us, there is no corner to fight.

totb has no problem with the gtroc members or general skyline owners, we've made that clear all along. none of the actual team or reps who took part this year had any issues, problems or complaints, please speak to them if you wish to clarify that point. we all got along and had a good day. people on this forum are now trying to cause issues where there are none now.

if you want to discuss an issue as you seem to do, or enter a car or propose what should/shouldnt make up the team then contact Hugh, Keith Cowie, or Mick Begley who run the skyline team entry. anything they wish to propose to us will be considered in jan 2009 along with other team reps etc as usual.

cheers


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

davewilkins said:


> Can we wind down the top speed and 1/4 mile and concentrate on these courses instead? Elvington Park west track starts where the finish line for the top speed run used to be in previous years and Elvington Park East Start and turn 9 are the start and end of the 1/4 mile at TOTB.
> The handling course at TOTB has always been tight and favoured lightweight two seaters and rally (type) cars but those same cars still beat skylines on big open tracks as well!


hi dave

in all honesty i think the skyline guys had a fair crack on sunday at the handling but you are now against some very specialised handling cars these days, as you say yourself the skylines also get beat on large open track nowadays. i dont think we had an all out handling setup skyline on the day that matched the setup of the others or had as concerted an effort on the handling tbh. thats all it was, not anything deeper than that really.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Now nismoman, you should know that Chris always insists on having the last word no matter what anyone says.


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

yes your right john,thats the problem 
just because people have entered skylines this year,must mean every one thinks all the rules are fair.
thats strange i dont seem to remember the skyline team having to turn meany people away this year,because the event is that popular
nowonder non of the other teams complane with some of the cars that are entered in there teams.
but it must be only us john that thinks it,s not fair because we must be bad loosers
and dont you dare question the rules john


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