# Calsonic Group A suspension set up. Anyone know what it is?



## bazgtr (Aug 5, 2004)

Does anyone have the specs of the Group A Calsonic R32 GTR(The blue one).

I'm looking for info on the suspension set on this car. Any underside pictures would also be great or a link to the spec of the car.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

I can answer this in detail, but I'm a little bit worried that you might not realise the full implications of your question (?).

The Group A suspension parts were _nothing_ like those on the standard cars. The whole thing was fabricated, with - for example - uprights in cast magnesium and fabbed steel knuckle arms and links. You can't really talk about one part of it without taking all the matching parts into account.

Whole thing is a big subject. Do you mind if I ask the purpose of your question? Are you trying to replicate it, model it, write about it, or something else?



Alan T.


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## bazza1 (Aug 18, 2007)

*Calsonic R32*

Hi Alan,

If you do have any pics or info about the Calsonic R32 GTR I would appreciate it very much if you could provide any info as I'm thinking of doing a project on my R32 along similar lines.











Cheers.


Baz


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## Satansbodyguard (Oct 29, 2007)

Anyone know what the ....toe,caster,camber etc settings were on the calsonic??

Nigel :thumbsup:


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## bigkev (Mar 2, 2008)

Satansbodyguard said:


> Anyone know what the ....toe,caster,camber etc settings were on the calsonic??
> 
> Nigel :thumbsup:


presumably they were regularly altered


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

I have loads of books and info on these Group A cars - mostly in Japanese. Although I do have a copy of the FIA homologation papers too.

As our expert PS30-SB stated, the Grp A suspension is far removed from the production car and unless you have a lottery win, impossible to copy. Geometry settings would be useless on a normal R32


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

bazza1 said:


> Hi Alan,
> 
> If you do have any pics or info about the Calsonic R32 GTR I would appreciate it very much if you could provide any info as I'm thinking of doing a project on my R32 along similar lines.


Baz,
I think you might not realise quite how special the Gr.A R32 suspension and drivetrain parts were...? They were really _nothing like_ the stock parts.

As I mentioned in my original answer to this post ( crikey - it was _years_ ago...! ) the homologated race parts were a package that you can't really replicate with off-the-shelf-parts today. Especially on a road car.

As a few pictures might get this across better than I can with a thousand words, take a look at these:











 

 

 




Cheers,
Alan T.


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

Great pics Alan, thanks for sharing - which car are these from?
My guess is the FET SPORT car????
Are the Quantums period fitment? I understood the Calsonic cars ran Koni and KYB dampers.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

It's a collection of parts originally used on several cars in period. Each car had a comprehensive package of spares, and stuff got swapped around all the time ( what with crack testing after races and tests, rebuilding, rebushing etc etc ). 

The Quantums were for use on a later privateer car which used some of the Gr.A parts. You can see some original Kayabas underneath them in the photo.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

*slaver* hmm...centre lock hubs....

:chuckle:

TT


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## freakazoid3 (Jan 19, 2008)

Looks like a fun project to replicate those parts 
I'd love to do something similar serious the my track gtr 

But I guess dimentions etc will be hard to come by


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> It's a collection of parts originally used on several cars in period. Each car had a comprehensive package of spares, and stuff got swapped around all the time ( what with crack testing after races and tests, rebuilding, rebushing etc etc ).
> 
> The Quantums were for use on a later privateer car which used some of the Gr.A parts. You can see some original Kayabas underneath them in the photo.


Amazing have been after pics of front suspension for years!!!!
and it was as easy as that, Just asking at the right time.LOL

would that be the same setup as the Gibson cars?


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

OK, call me daft but where do these go and what do they do?? I assume that they are the body attachments for the rose jointed arms and hubs??

TT


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## zbloke (Jan 28, 2003)

tarmac terror said:


> OK, call me daft but where do these go and what do they do?? I assume that they are the body attachments for the rose jointed arms and hubs??
> 
> TT


Front and rear top damper mounts??


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Shock absorber mount brackets. The interfaces between the body and the tops of the dampers....


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

RKTuning said:


> Amazing have been after pics of front suspension for years!!!!
> and it was as easy as that, Just asking at the right time.LOL
> 
> would that be the same setup as the Gibson cars?


Yeah, The Gibson cars's suspension looked like that, I have some photos I think on my work computer of the underside of 92 spec car, I will see it I can find them when I am back at work.

As pointed out by others, It would be extremely difficult to replicate....But then again Ron, looking at your car!

If it was me, And I wanted to make something like those with centre lock hubs, I would use Nascar/TransAm series hubs from the USA, very similar, and easy to buy....Then fabricate up some arms with pillow balls.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Sub Boy said:


> Yeah, The Gibson cars's suspension looked like that......


These were FIA / JAF Gr.A _homologated parts_. So of course the Australian cars used the same - homologated - race legal parts.

If they had wanted to use something different, they would have had to have homologated their own parts, or get the homologation amended accordingly.....


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

here,s the gibson motorsport r32gtr


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

has anybody got pics of front suspension on the cars?
please


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I'm sure I do, But I'm not back at work untill Monday....


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

RKTuning said:


> has anybody got pics of front suspension on the cars?
> please


 





....hard to take good photos of the parts actually _on_ the cars.

Alan T.


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## Bellis_GTR (Nov 18, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> ....hard to take good photos of the parts actually _on_ the cars.
> 
> Alan T.


wooow truly amazing.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)




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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Fantastic stuff Alan, Chris and the rest of you thanks for sharing!!! :bowdown1:

bob


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## R32 GTR R32 GTR (Nov 27, 2009)

RKTuning said:


> has anybody got pics of front suspension on the cars?
> please


I sense a Group A RK Tuning Special coming on


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## daytona (Jun 28, 2005)

What are those to 'canistors' with the blue 'bands on each end in the lower left of the first pic? And on the bottom right of the 2nd pic where do the 2 small braces fit in? As Ron'said i've been searching for pics like these for years:bowdown1: Any more for us Group A junkies?


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)




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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

daytona said:


> What are those to 'canistors' with the blue 'bands on each end in the lower left of the first pic?


CP2985 AP Racing air jacks. 4 on the car.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)




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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

Well that's a major differences when compared to the factory OEM stuff :chuckle:. 

Spend a good 10k+ on suspension before moving on any where else.

The kit looks rigid as ****!


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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

Just noticed the FMIC on the Calsonic Photo lying on the floor, that looks strangley standard? (to me anyway)


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Love the fact with all that R&D and technology going into the Group A cars that they were stuck with having to use the OEM IC.

Not that theres ouwt wrong with it mind.

bob


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Snap, it was!

bob


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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

Good! Means I'm not going to upgrade mine then!:bowdown1:


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

daytona said:


> And on the bottom right of the 2nd pic where do the 2 small braces fit in?


They are the front Upper Link brackets. They have the Upper Links attached to them in that photo, so that might be why you are not recognising them from the other photos.



GavGTR said:


> The kit looks ridged at ****!


Say what?


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

Great thread. Nice to see some decent info on the Group A GT-R's on the foum at last. Thanks for the info and pictures Alan :thumbsup:


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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

PS30-SB said:


> They are the front Upper Link brackets. They have the Upper Links attached to them in that photo, so that might be why you are not recognising them from the other photos.
> 
> 
> 
> Say what?


replace the "at" with "as", typo there I do apologise(And of course I wasn't referring to the shocks/springs ). I was referring to solid looking suspension mounts and some of the other suspension arms.


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## wildboy (May 2, 2010)

rigid not "ridged" as well mate lol.


some great info been posted on here. makes me wish i had won a couple of million on the lotto saturday, just think of the possibilities?


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## GavGTR (Jan 12, 2004)

wildboy said:


> rigid not "ridged" as well mate lol.


GAH! I'm having one of those days!:runaway:

Can anyone tell me what the pulley attached to the front of the lefthand side CAM is driving, in the Gibson's car engine bay photo?


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

Mechanical fuel pump AFAIK


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

mambastu said:


> Great thread. Nice to see some decent info on the Group A GT-R's on the foum at last. Thanks for the info and pictures Alan :thumbsup:


+1 for me too. Nice to see this sort of thing. Exactly what the forum should be about.

:bowdown1:


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

lightspeed said:


> Mechanical fuel pump AFAIK



Yup thats correct.


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Great thread. Love looking at the photos of the group A r32's


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

Feels like Christmas all over again
thanks Alan for all the pics and info
saved myself a trip to Japan armed with a camera, as everbody else i asked never took any.
was beginning to think it was top secret and and nobody was allowed to take pics LOL

I'm very happy now

Ron


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> ....hard to take good photos of the parts actually _on_ the cars.
> 
> Alan T.


Why is this car rwd only ?


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## minifreak (Mar 4, 2006)

Eagle eyes there Ron!


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

RKTuning said:


> Why is this car rwd only ?


Because the owner prefers it that way. It's a time attack / track day car, built using an old race car as a base. It uses a lot of original GrA parts.

You wanted on-car front end shots. There are GrA components there.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

PS30-SB said:


> Because the owner prefers it that way. It's a time attack / track day car, built using an old race car as a base. It uses a lot of original GrA parts.
> 
> You wanted on-car front end shots. There are GrA components there.


Funny to carry all that weight, and for the small amount extra for a diff and some drive shafts....


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Sub Boy said:


> Funny to carry all that weight, and for the small amount extra for a diff and some drive shafts....


He's a privateer, and engineers / drives the car himself. He knows what he's doing, but - like many of us I'm sure - doesn't have the luxury of an unlimited budget and factory support. The car is a nice one, well built, and with an interesting history ( that 'interesting' history being the reason I was standing underneath it...... ). I certainly wouldn't kick it out of bed.

Some of the events he participates in have different classes for 2WD and AWD. He can engineer the car to move between classes fairly easily, depending on track / event / competition. Seems quite astute to me.


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

Has there been any lap times around tsukuba?
from a gpA 32

Are most of the cars with collectors in Japan now?


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

RKTuning said:


> Has there been any lap times around tsukuba?
> from a gpA 32


I only have data for the in-period racing. I was at quite a few of the races myself. That's one of the reasons why I'm such a big fan of the cars....

Examples:

1990 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba: 
Pole position went to the Reebok Skyline at 58" 218, with the Calsonic Skyline in second at 58" 401. Third was the Dunlop / Shimizu Sierra RS500 at 1' 00" 007.

1991 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole went to the Calsonic Skyline, at 57" 733. Second was the Reebok Skyline at 58" 125, and third was the Taisan Klepper Skyline at 59" 090.

1992 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole was the Calsonic Skyline at 57" 071, second was the Kyoseki Skyline at 57" 297. Third was the HKS Skyline at 57" 852.

1993 JTC qualifying at Tsukuba:
Pole was the HKS Skyline at 56" 933, second the Calsonic Skyline at 57" 971, and third the Kyoseki Skyline at 57" 417.

Most of the Tsukuba JTC rounds were between 140 and 150 laps in length, with obligatory driver changes.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

RKTuning said:


> Are most of the cars with collectors in Japan now?


Well Nissan themselves still have two of the R32 Calsonic cars, and one of the R32 Reeboks. One of the Taisan Klepper R32s is in 'private' hands ( although I believe it uses some borrowed parts ) and there are others that come out from time to time, but the great majority of GrA R32s went on to be used in other race series in privateer hands and ended up getting split to the four winds...

I personally only know of _three_ complete ex-GpA R32s in private hands, and one particular collection of just parts that is completely eye-watering. 

There's quite a lot of bodywork hanging on garage walls too......


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

PS30-SB said:


> I only have data for the in-period racing. I was at quite a few of the races myself. That's one of the reasons why I'm such a big fan of the cars....
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


Thats great times back then
considering the garage saurus car only did 56 with about 800bhp !!
saying that it proberbly cost a 1/5th of the price to build

would love to see a gibson car or a calsonic at goodwood festival of speed
maybe someone could arrange it please!!!!!

love all this info
keep it coming


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Just looked, and all mine are from the back of the car....


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Some footage:

YouTube - Nissan - 1990~93 BNR32 Skyline GT-R Group A History(1)

YouTube - Nissan - 1990~93 BNR32 Skyline GT-R Group A History(2)

YouTube - Nissan - 1990~93 BNR32 Skyline GT-R Group A History(3)


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## max1 (Feb 24, 2002)

cool stuff there ,my gtr32 track car came fro japan with quantum suspension ,real good quality.nice to see all the old setups.


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## Heku (Feb 7, 2002)

Does anyone have any measurements of Gp.A suspension parts like subframe(s), control arms, spindles and the like? This is something I might want to replicate on a long-term racing car project.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Does anyone have any group A suspension parts for sale?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A*

Looking for Group A goose necks, does anyone know where some would be for sale or have dimensions for them?


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

fun123 said:


> Looking for Group A goose necks, does anyone know where some would be for sale or have dimensions for them?


Check with Glenn, Yoda had some GrpA parts floating about.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A*



Satansbodyguard said:


> Anyone know what the ....toe,caster,camber etc settings were on the calsonic??
> 
> Nigel :thumbsup:



Yes I have all of the settings and specs.

There was a change of spec from the 1990model to the 1991 model also


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A parts*



PS30-SB said:


> It's a collection of parts originally used on several cars in period. Each car had a comprehensive package of spares, and stuff got swapped around all the time ( what with crack testing after races and tests, rebuilding, rebushing etc etc ).
> 
> The Quantums were for use on a later privateer car which used some of the Gr.A parts. You can see some original Kayabas underneath them in the photo.


Alan, in the last week I have done a lot of research on the Group A suspension parts, the goose necks above don't look like to original ones that were homologated. Could they have been fabricated by someone other than Nismo?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

RKTuning said:


> Amazing have been after pics of front suspension for years!!!!
> and it was as easy as that, Just asking at the right time.LOL
> 
> would that be the same setup as the Gibson cars?


Gibson cars ran 10 inch wheels where built up in Australia with parts where as the Group A cars built by Nismo had 11 inch wheels. The Nismo cars were also developed over the years, for example there were various subframe versions, different driveshafts (Some CFRP) etc.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A*

From what I have found out the Nismo Group A's were the only factory built cars, these where the real Group A cars, the Gibson Motorsport GTR's were made up locally out of some of their Group A parts. For example the rear suspension arms were different . I have both types and are using the Nismo stuff in my suspension. Also the Gibson ones didn't use the magnesium transfer case or the rear AP brakes (They used Harrop's) or carbon drive shafts etc

Here is a pic of my syspension arms, Group A Nismo on top and Group A Gibson on the bottom of the pic. Also the Nismo item uses stepped high misalignment shperials made by NMB Minebea (Make parts for Airbus and the Boeing 787) and the Gibson one doesn't.










Rear tie rod bracket also different on Gibson upright
Here is apic of a part I have


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

You lucky man!!!
Cheers for sharing!

bob


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> Alan, in the last week I have done a lot of research on the Group A suspension parts, the goose necks above don't look like to original ones that were homologated. Could they have been fabricated by someone other than Nismo?


Sorry, didn't see this question until just now.

Which 'goosenecks' are you asking about? All the stuff I photographed came direct from NISMO, and was used on 'factory' Gr.A cars in period. It has impeccable provenance, and indeed it all *belonged* to one of the factory team drivers.....

One thing that I think it's important to remember is that there was a long period between the initial homologation and the end of the true 'factory' use of the cars and parts in period. Where anything was clearly different to the originally homologated parts they would need to be added to the original FIA homologation as amendments ( with photos, a technical spec and relevant dates noted on the FIA papers ) to keep it all above board, but if the differences were marginal - or if they thought they could get it past scrutineering without any trouble and not be protested afterwards - then later parts could well have slight differences to the earliest versions. There's a good few years of use and development / update 'in period' that we are covering here, after all.

Wouln't surprise me if details on the later Gibson stuff was slightly different to the earliest ( NISMO ) produced - and properly homologated - items. Gibson would probably be able to get some of this stuff made up locally for less than what NISMO would have charged them for it I bet. They'd incorporate their own tweeks and nobody would be any the wiser if it wasn't all that noticeable once on the car. 

What's the provenance of the parts you are identifying as NISMO Gr.A in your pics? Are they dated or marked in any way?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Sorry, didn't see this question until just now.
> 
> Which 'goosenecks' are you asking about? All the stuff I photographed came direct from NISMO, and was used on 'factory' Gr.A cars in period. It has impeccable provenance, and indeed it all *belonged* to one of the factory team drivers.....
> 
> ...


They aren't dated or part numbered, but a guy I know who worked for Nismo and has supplied me all the suspension setup specs has looked at these gooseneck pics and showed me ones that he has of the originals and the detail and quality are quite different. I will be using the Nismo arms in my car and keeping the Gibson ones as a spare. The Gibson ones can't be used without major mods to the subframe

The front and rear hubs are part numbered


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> They aren't dated or part numbered, but a guy I know who worked for Nismo and has supplied me all the suspension setup specs has looked at these gooseneck pics and showed me ones that he has of the originals and the detail and quality are quite different.


You're implying that the parts in my photos are not "originals" then?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> You're implying that the parts in my photos are not "originals" then?


No not at all, what I am sayig is that they don't look like the originals, the original ones have an offset top mount which is necessary to clear the upper arm when the suspension is at full travel up.and the rear portion has a bend that is slightly higher to clear the wheel when on full lock which by the way is 19.5 degrees in and 20 degrees out (This is what Nismo has recorded in their tech specifications) To use this arm that you show would require a major mod to the upper link. I only have a printed copy of my Nimso pics but I will scan and upload. I also have pics of the 1990 and 1991 rear subframe which are both quite different from each other and interesting completely dfferent to the Gibson version (Which I imagine Gibson made themselves)

Gibson also made different spindles for the hubs because the wheels kept coming loose, they have a much larger diameter than the Nismo's I have a set of them with my hubs (Nuthas a 72mm thread - Huge)


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*gearbox*

Here is a Gibson Holinger gearbox I have, this is rare, one of only 3 made in this configuation (Magnesium bell housing), most were alloy and some were full magnesium. This one also has a very nice hydraulic release bearing system










Interesting thing is Gibson cars never had the magnesium transfer case or the CFRP driveshaft that Nismo had used


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> No not at all, what I am sayig is that they don't look like the originals, the original ones have an offset top mount which is necessary to clear the upper arm when the suspension is at full travel up.and the rear portion has a bend that is slightly higher to clear the wheel when on full lock which by the way is 19.5 degrees in and 20 degrees out (This is what Nismo has recorded in their tech specifications) To use this arm that you show would require a major mod to the upper link.


What's the comment about "quality" meant to mean then? 

And what "originals" are you talking about? To my mind, the "originals" are the _first_ version in the JAF/FIA homologation papers. 

You need to clarify.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> What's the comment about "quality" meant to mean then?
> 
> And what "originals" are you talking about? To my mind, the "originals" are the _first_ version in the JAF/FIA homologation papers.
> 
> You need to clarify.



They look as though they have been fabricated by hand, I will soon post a pic to explain. I am not aying they are not fro out of Nismo, what I am saying is they don't loo like the ones I have pics of. If you look back earlier in the thread there is a breakdown of the Calsonic car, the ones I have a pic off look like this. Maybe the ones you have a pic of are development versions.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Baz,
> I think you might not realise quite how special the Gr.A R32 suspension and drivetrain parts were...? They were really _nothing like_ the stock parts.
> 
> As I mentioned in my original answer to this post ( crikey - it was _years_ ago...! ) the homologated race parts were a package that you can't really replicate with off-the-shelf-parts today. Especially on a road car.
> ...


Have a good look at these ones, then compare to the ones below, they are different


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## Madden (Nov 14, 2004)

Where do you guys find all these parts and info. Would love to be able to get my hands on some. Incredible knowledge guys


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


>


Blow this pic up and have a lok at the top mount, this is the difference I am talking about. Even the bends on the gooseneck's look substantially different


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

First image is a page from the Ishida / Gran Prix Publishing R32 race development book, showing the 'Ext-Compl. Knuckle Arm' / "Gooseneck". The other three extra photos of the same parts I showed earlier. Admittedly they are a bit dirty and used, but they are genuine works Gr.A NISMO pieces with correct provenance.

As I've been saying, parts specs were developed and changed all the way through their in-period race life. Many of the things you are pointing out were detailed in the FIA papers as full amendments to the homologation. For example, there are at least four different versions of knuckles and the crossmembers changed three times before the end of '91. Have you got a full set of the A-5405 / JA-137 papers to refer to?

There is discussion / explanation of the works setup data in the Ishida book, so it's not a secret as such. Just it does not mean all that much on it's own, and can not necessarily be applied to any car that does not use _all the relevant parts_.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> First image is a page from the Ishida / Gran Prix Publishing R32 race development book, showing the 'Ext-Compl. Knuckle Arm' / "Gooseneck". The other three extra photos of the same parts I showed earlier. Admittedly they are a bit dirty and used, but they are genuine works Gr.A NISMO pieces with correct provenance.
> 
> As I've been saying, parts specs were developed and changed all the way through their in-period race life. Many of the things you are pointing out were detailed in the FIA papers as full amendments to the homologation. For example, there are at least four different versions of knuckles and the crossmembers changed three times before the end of '91. Have you got a full set of the A-5405 / JA-137 papers to refer to?
> 
> There is discussion / explanation of the works setup data in the Ishida book, so it's not a secret as such. Just it does not mean all that much on it's own, and can not necessarily be applied to any car that does not use _all the relevant parts_.


I have this book also, and it has some interesting info in it.

Can you see what I mean about the upper mount point not being offset.

I do think yours are originals, but I also think they may have been a development piece given the difference inappearance.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> Blow this pic up and have a lok at the top mount, this is the difference I am talking about. Even the bends on the gooseneck's look substantially different


Why would you be surprised that parts changed spec / detail / appearance during a three year period of racing and development?

The parts in the photo you are referencing were fitted to the #12 Calsonic / Impul Racing car during 1991. There was a full year of racing before that, and a full year afterwards too. To use the photo as if it's somehow proof of only one type of 'gooseneck' is clearly a mistake.

You're calling into doubt the authenticity of the parts I photographed and showed here. I think you would be well advised to look into the subject a bit more deeply before you jump to conclusions and start pointing fingers.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> They look as though they have been fabricated by hand....


They were! They are not castings or forgings. They were TIG welded together incorporating STKM 14B cold rolled tubing, as noted in the Ishida book.


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## Satansbodyguard (Oct 29, 2007)

fun123 said:


> From what I have found out the Nismo Group A's were the only factory built cars, these where the real Group A cars, the Gibson Motorsport GTR's were made up locally out of some of their Group A parts. For example the rear suspension arms were different . I have both types and are using the Nismo stuff in my suspension. Also the Gibson ones didn't use the magnesium transfer case or the rear AP brakes (They used Harrop's) or carbon drive shafts etc
> 
> Here is a pic of my syspension arms, Group A Nismo on top and Group A Gibson on the bottom of the pic. Also the Nismo item uses stepped high misalignment shperials made by NMB Minebea (Make parts for Airbus and the Boeing 787) and the Gibson one doesn't.
> 
> ...




Hi mate what size are the tubes & rod ends on these ? 

Nigel :thumbsup:


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Why would you be surprised that parts changed spec / detail / appearance during a three year period of racing and development?
> 
> The parts in the photo you are referencing were fitted to the #12 Calsonic / Impul Racing car during 1991. There was a full year of racing before that, and a full year afterwards too. To use the photo as if it's somehow proof of only one type of 'gooseneck' is clearly a mistake.
> 
> You're calling into doubt the authenticity of the parts I photographed and showed here. I think you would be well advised to look into the subject a bit more deeply before you jump to conclusions and start pointing fingers.


No I aren't calling to doubt your parts, (What I said "they don't look like originals" I never said they wern't) also I said my friend that worked for Nismo said the quality did not look like Nismo, I did not say this. Do you understand this or can't read plain english? You are accusing me of saying your parts are fake, which I am not.

I have looked at the subject closely already, I think you should stop thinking you are the only world authoirity on Group A.

I will draw you a diagram of how this gooseneck will not fit under a conventional inner guard, what I am saying is that it must be a development piece as opposed to the homologated one. As it stands this gooseneck will not work with the upper arm as pictured in the Ishida book, it will clash on the cross brace as it has a much too flat top section.



Your parts you have shown (Or those of someone you know) are clearly group A and so are mine. Sorry did forget to ask are these your parts?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Satansbodyguard said:


> Hi mate what size are the tubes & rod ends on these ?
> 
> Nigel :thumbsup:



Which one the Nismo or Gibson ones.

They aren't rod ends but are sphericals mounted in custom made mounts.

The Nismo ones use special sphericals known as wide high misalignment versions, the reason fo this is that they wee restricted to moving the subframe mount positions 20mm where as the gibson ones use wide sphericals and had the subframe mounts ved into alignment.

If you want to make these sperical joints I would use one with a 30mm diameter which is similar to the Nismo one (Nismo has stepped outer diameter)


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## Satansbodyguard (Oct 29, 2007)

fun123 said:


> Which one the Nismo or Gibson ones.
> 
> They aren't rod ends but are mounted in custom made mounts.
> 
> ...






so they have fixed arms & ends and use sphericals for alignment (red box)

and don't use rod ends (green box)

could'nt tell in the photos

just wondered what size tubing they used if its bigger/better than what you can get from marketplace now..........

Nigel :thumbsup:


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Satansbodyguard said:


> so they have fixed arms & ends and use sphericals for alignment (red box)
> 
> and don't use rod ends (green box)
> 
> ...


Yes for the rear they use sphericals like in the red box and have no adjustment. The rear caster can be adjusted from within the hub upright.

I will mesure the tubing later and let you know


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> They were! They are not castings or forgings. They were TIG welded together incorporating STKM 14B cold rolled tubing, as noted in the Ishida book.


What I mean't was that they looked like a one off, the ones in the Calsonic picture looked like they were made from a JIG (Meaning theymade more than one at a time) because of the quality of the part. The one in your pic looks as though it has been modified a few times. i.e. the side cutaway parts and the upper gusseting look like they have been done after the part was made.
Of course they aren't a casting or forging, look at the front hubs, that is a casting and I am sure you have seen a forged piston before.

I seen mention of the tube used in the Ishida book and it's comparison's to the R31


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Great photos and very interesting period information, thanks.

As an aside if you were building a copy of a Group A car you would of course just copy or buy OE Group A parts, subject to availability, and budget, but if you were building a track car not subject to Group A's pretty stringent rules there are far better suspension and subframe set ups to give far better suspension kinematics, weight saving and ease of fabrication. I also concur, from quite a bit of race car restoration experience, that these parts would be in a constant flux of redevelopment, often minor and unworthy of re homologation, but sufficient to make spares packages frequently obsolete. F1 cars are even worse, their development, even in the eighties, was rampant, and makes finding spares a minefield, almost a lottery as to whether they'll fit if you don't have access to factory records.

I would love to see higher resolution images of the homologation sheets, would that be possible? I would be very grateful, thanks.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Chris Wilson said:


> Great photos and very interesting period information, thanks.
> 
> As an aside if you were building a copy of a Group A car you would of course just copy or buy OE Group A parts, subject to availability, and budget, but if you were building a track car not subject to Group A's pretty stringent rules there are far better suspension and subframe set ups to give far better suspension kinematics, weight saving and ease of fabrication. I also concur, from quite a bit of race car restoration experience, that these parts would be in a constant flux of redevelopment, often minor and unworthy of re homologation, but sufficient to make spares packages frequently obsolete. F1 cars are even worse, their development, even in the eighties, was rampant, and makes finding spares a minefield, almost a lottery as to whether they'll fit if you don't have access to factory records.
> 
> I would love to see higher resolution images of the homologation sheets, would that be possible? I would be very grateful, thanks.


The Group A parts are no longer available, also according to my guy who worked there, the ownership structure of Nismo has changed.

Yes agreed, the group A setup is a compromise, from what I can see they have done their best to work within the restricted suspension pickup points, even going to such lengths as using high misalignment sphericals to great a more ideal mount point.
Agree if you wanted to create a better suspension package you would go to something like a double unequal length A arm setup and do away with the heavy components that were used in Group A. 
The development I would imagine would be through minor incremental change, the restrictive nature of the factory innerguards (There is very limited room around the upper front suspension link and it also ends up at a very steep angle when the car is substatially lowered as in Group A) are the main factor here.
The fabricated goseneck in the shot above would require a different type of upper arm than is pictured in the Ishida book (Probably shorter without angled gusset) to be able to clear the space in the inner guard and allow enough upward travel of the suspension. From ride height the group A had 45mm travel up and 50mm droop, at full travel up the wheel almost touches the inner guard.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> I have looked at the subject closely already, I think you should stop thinking you are the only world authoirity on Group A.


Make no mistake my friend, the people who _really_ know about this stuff are the people who _designed, engineered, built and maintained the cars in-period_. Not you or I. 

We are just outside observers, and - it seems fair to say - coming at this from different ends of a spectrum of interest. My interest has perhaps more emphasis on what is historically correct, as I have no more interest in re-engineering a genuine R32 Gr.A car than I would in re-engineering a Porsche 917K or an early 20th C. Grand Prix car to make them "better".



Chris Wilson said:


> I would love to see higher resolution images of the homologation sheets, would that be possible? I would be very grateful, thanks.


Chris,
A full set of the FISA/JAF homologation papers for the BNR32 runs to around 82 pages. Even then, the sets that you can buy from the FIA ( or through RAC MSA ) are not as clear as an *original* set. You might be disappointed. The copies you can buy through JAF are a little clearer, but _extremely_ expensive for what they are.

If there is any area / detail that you are particularly interested in then I can scan and e-mail pages to you, but I'm not doing the whole 82 pages.....


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Chris Wilson said:


> Great photos and very interesting period information, thanks.
> 
> As an aside if you were building a copy of a Group A car you would of course just copy or buy OE Group A parts, subject to availability, and budget, but if you were building a track car not subject to Group A's pretty stringent rules there are far better suspension and subframe set ups to give far better suspension kinematics, weight saving and ease of fabrication. I also concur, from quite a bit of race car restoration experience, that these parts would be in a constant flux of redevelopment, often minor and unworthy of re homologation, but sufficient to make spares packages frequently obsolete. F1 cars are even worse, their development, even in the eighties, was rampant, and makes finding spares a minefield, almost a lottery as to whether they'll fit if you don't have access to factory records.
> 
> I would love to see higher resolution images of the homologation sheets, would that be possible? I would be very grateful, thanks.


I have staff throughout Japan that work for my company, should you need the homologation papers from JAF then it would be no problem for one of them to get a copy for you at cost.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> First image is a page from the Ishida / Gran Prix Publishing R32 race development book, showing the 'Ext-Compl. Knuckle Arm' / "Gooseneck". The other three extra photos of the same parts I showed earlier. Admittedly they are a bit dirty and used, but they are genuine works Gr.A NISMO pieces with correct provenance.
> 
> As I've been saying, parts specs were developed and changed all the way through their in-period race life. Many of the things you are pointing out were detailed in the FIA papers as full amendments to the homologation. For example, there are at least four different versions of knuckles and the crossmembers changed three times before the end of '91. Have you got a full set of the A-5405 / JA-137 papers to refer to?
> 
> There is discussion / explanation of the works setup data in the Ishida book, so it's not a secret as such. Just it does not mean all that much on it's own, and can not necessarily be applied to any car that does not use _all the relevant parts_.


Are the goosenecks spares? 

They have a lot of rust in the kingpin bearing bearing sleeve and look as though they have ben sitting around a while.

wWould be interested to see the upper arm that go with these.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> Are the goosenecks spares?
> 
> They have a lot of rust in the kingpin bearing bearing sleeve and look as though they have ben sitting around a while.
> 
> wWould be interested to see the upper arm that go with these.


Are you at it again? What are you trying to prove? 

When I took the photos ( in 2006.... ) the parts were already at least 16 years old, and any that had been removed from a car had not been on that car for at least 14 years..... 

Spares? The _majority_ of the parts in my photos were 'spares'. Quite a few of them still had the original NISMO parts labels on them. 

I've posted plenty of photos and scans on this thread already. Where are the diagrams _you_ said you were going to post?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Are you at it again? What are you trying to prove?
> 
> When I took the photos ( in 2006.... ) the parts were already at least 16 years old, and any that had been removed from a car had not been on that car for at least 14 years.....
> 
> ...



At what again? 

Would like to see the upper arms, that is all.

You did say earlier the owner uses the car for track days etc.

As you claim to be the expert in Group A (Even though you took some photos of someones car, have the Ishida book (easliy obtainable) and have the group A homologsation papers) tell me the dimensions of the inner shpericals in the rear upper arm and why they are stepped? If you still have access to this car you will have this info, or be able to work it out. It is not in the Ishida book.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> As you claim to be the expert in Group A (Even though you took some photos of someones car, have the Ishida book (easliy obtainable) and have the group A homologsation papers)....


I'll just repeat this, as you don't seem to have taken it on board:



PS30-SB said:


> Make no mistake my friend, the people who really know about this stuff are the people who designed, engineered, built and maintained the cars in-period. Not you or I.


Take a step back and think about what you are writing. At no point have I claimed that I am _"the expert in Group A"_. I am an enthusiast. I saw the cars race in-period in Japan, and I consider myself lucky to have been there. I collect data about them, I have a little bit more data about them than most people on forums like this usually have, but they are not even what I would consider my 'specialist subject'. I have posted some photos and data in response to a question. What exactly are _you_ bringing to the thread? 



fun123 said:


> ....... tell me the dimensions of the inner shpericals in the rear upper arm and why they are stepped? If you still have access to this car you will have this info, or be able to work it out. It is not in the Ishida book.


What's the point of your 'challenge'? Do you think you are in some kind of struggle to prove who is top dog, and who knows more about this subject than anyone else? I'm not in any kind of _competition_ with you, my friend.

You seem to have completely misunderstood what my photographs represent. What made you think that all of these Gr.A parts belonged to the same guy whose ( 2wd ) track day car I photographed? You must have jumped to conclusions and made a big assumption. The fact is that the multiple parts on the workshop floor belong to one person and the complete car belongs to another. They are about 200km apart from eachother and have no direct connection. I thought it was all quite clear, but maybe not for you?




In answer to your inner sphericals 'challenge' question, I should tell you that I have the NISMO kit list for the Gr.A BNR32 on my desk in front of me. It answers questions like that with hard data from a pretty reliable source, I'd say:

*54590-X0R00 BRG-SPHERICAL / 54618-X0R00 ( 55159-RR425 ) MBWT16.*
So they are NMB-brand 'MBWT16' sphericals. Dimensions / further data from current suppliers here: NMB ƒ~ƒlƒxƒA ƒ�ƒbƒhƒGƒ“ƒh�@ƒXƒtƒFƒŠƒJƒ‹ƒxƒAƒŠƒ“ƒO - 1ŒÂ‚æ‚è“Á‰¿”Ì”„ -

The kit list says that they were 2,410 JPY each ( plus 3% sales tax ) in 1990.

Did I pass your 'test'?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> I'll just repeat this, as you don't seem to have taken it on board:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was my understanding that this thread ws a discussion about Group A, there are a few of us that are more interested in it than others.
Usually the point of a forum is for people to express their views and share knowledge. I find comments like, you need to dig a bit deeper or do your research unhelpful, if you think you know something others don't why not share it, it is not exactly goiung to be a problem of the competition steeling the works secrets. As you say you are an enthusiast and it shows by what pics and info you have collected, there are allso others who read this that have a lot of interest in the subject too and appreciate any meaningful information that is shared as I guess you would the other way around.


Now about the sphericals, from information and by disassembling and measuring the Group A parts I have in my posession everything in the suspension is Imperial in measurement, including bearings, bolts (UNF) and joints
(except the inner arm bolts, calliper bolts and lower shock mount bolts)

The inner wide high missalignment sphericals are ABYT8 versions from NMB Minebea (Imperal not metric). They have a .500 inner bore size.
(The link you provide is to the japanese metric sphericals)

The stepped outer is actually a sleeve pressed onto the spherical, the reason for this is to enble the retaining clip to fit into the holder further out so that the spherical can achieve its absolute full missalignment. This is simply due to the restrictive nature of the factory pick up points. (even though under the rules they could be moved 20mm)

This info is just what I have discovered through investigation, if you have anything that could add to it, I would appreciate your input and I am sure other reading this thread would too.

Pic below


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Cool, as a casual observer, I cant see where anyone is challenging anyones knowledge or authenticity.
Ps 30, I cant see how Pauls challenging what you say ( maybe I need reading lessons)
But if thats how you read it, I dont think that was how it was meant.....

Clearly you both have a few clues so this thread would be more helpfull if we all just stayed on track, which is discussing the hows and why's of the parts.
Ta


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> Now about the sphericals, from information and by disassembling and measuring the Group A parts I have in my posession everything in the suspension is Imperial in measurement, including bearings, bolts (UNF) and joints
> (except the inner arm bolts, calliper bolts and lower shock mount bolts)
> 
> The inner wide high missalignment sphericals are ABYT8 versions from NMB Minebea (Imperal not metric). They have a .500 inner bore size.
> (The link you provide is to the japanese metric sphericals)


Putting all other issues aside, I have to say that what you have found in relation to the parts in your hands does not add up with what I can see on the original NISMO drawings and kit list. 

Can you think of any reason why NISMO in Japan would use IMPERIAL size bearings, bolts and joints in components and sub-assemblies that were built to NISMO's specs by their specialist suppliers in Japan? If they were Imperial because they need to match up with other Imperial-sized componentry ( USA / UK suppliers ) for example in brakes, wheels, hydraulics etc etc then I could understand it. But not for Japanese-made Japanese-use parts.

However, I could easily believe that Gibson Motorsports - for example - used Imperial parts in their own versions / updates / improvements of, or on, the NISMO parts. Gibson could have had them made ( or modified ) locally, and could have specified Imperial componentry and fasteners because of ready supply, stock held and/or the preferences of the sub-contractors who actually manufactured the parts for them. 

Like I said, I have the full 'kit list' ( basically a parts list for a race car ) for the Gr.A NISMO BNR32. This is an internal-use document, and was not intended for the use of people outside NISMO ( so I should not really have it - but that's another story ). I was asked not to distribute it, but in this instance I feel I need to make an exception in order to put some weight behind the evidence that I am presenting. Please look at the following scans from the REAR SUSPENSION drawings and parts list:







I've ringed some parts from the closeup in red. They are parts numbered 17 and 33 on the text parts list / description page. The kit list shows diagram item number, NISMO part number, description, QTY, drawing number, size, comment, price, weight and finally sub-contractor / manufacturer / source, reading left to right across the top of the columns. Do you see any Imperial sized components there? 

Part 17 is clearly quoted as being an MBW T16 ( manufactured by NMB in Japan, and Metric ) and QTY 16pcs. Part 33 is given a Nissan part number ( as opposed to a NISMO number ) and is therefore likely to be a part already in use within Nissan for a standard or Sports Option item. In this particular case ( an A7610 suffix ) would appear to link it to a Sports Opt part within the 310 range. I would be surprised if that were Imperial.

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the parts you have are either locally-made / outsourced items, modified or later updated / refurbished items. I don't want to get into any arguments about "authenticity" because such arguments rarely result in anything more than a difference of opinion, but we are talking about old - already historic - items here, and there are any number of scenarios that might apply. What is most likely is that none of us knows the FULL story. We just do the best we can with what we can find.

So I'd be EXTREMELY cautious in drawing any conclusions from the parts you have, and applying them rigidly to the Japanese-made & Japanese-used NISMO Gr.A parts. The NISMO kit list tells its own story, and I for one prefer to trust what it tells me unless very compelling evidence to the contrary trumps it.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Putting all other issues aside, I have to say that what you have found in relation to the parts in your hands does not add up with what I can see on the original NISMO drawings and kit list.
> 
> Can you think of any reason why NISMO in Japan would use IMPERIAL size bearings, bolts and joints in components and sub-assemblies that were built to NISMO's specs by their specialist suppliers in Japan? If they were Imperial because they need to match up with other Imperial-sized componentry ( USA / UK suppliers ) for example in brakes, wheels, hydraulics etc etc then I could understand it. But not for Japanese-made Japanese-use parts.
> 
> ...


Do you have a close up pic of the rear upper arm from the cars that you have photographed? I will post one of mine and see where the difference is.

One of my upper arm sets is definaltely made by Gibson, but the other one is definately a nismo item and has been hydra formed the same as those in your pictures. No one would go to the effort, or have access to the machinery to manufacture one this way if the were being made locally. I would say that either the list has changed later or the arms I have were earlier or later ones.
What ids interesting is the size of the MBW T16, and the fact that they are not high missalignment. If you look at the pic of your front lower arms they look like the have high missalignment sphericals in them.
I agree that it is impossile to know the full story and we can only work with what we have, but can also understand why they may have used imperial parts as there are more off the shelf bolts and bearings available in these sizes for racing use.
I will post some more detailed piics later today, or tomorrow morning.
Do you have the front partlist? does it mention metric lower outer sphericals?

Also what about dimensions, do you have anything that gives the pipe size for the upper arm? I could compare it to mine


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Not trying to wade into a conversation that I know a lot about...

But at a guess if there are imperial parts in there, they are more likely Gibson built bits.
Gibson would have used what was readily/locally available that is close to Nismo speced. 

Australia is much like NZ in that most of the Motorsport grade suspension parts are USA derivative for the likes of Sprint cars, Drag cars etc.

Chris.


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Would someone please continue to challenge PS30-SB's validity on all things groupA?
(in othe hope that eventually he'll be forced to publish all of his awesome data with regards to groupA spec sheets on here)  and we can all enjoy reading/learning from it to our hearts content!
Cheers

Bob


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

fourtoes said:


> Would someone please continue to challenge PS30-SB's validity on all things groupA?
> (in othe hope that eventually he'll be forced to publish all of his awesome data with regards to groupA spec sheets on here)  and we can all enjoy reading/learning from it to our hearts content!
> Cheers
> 
> Bob


I don't think there is any occasion to challenge the 'validity' of any of Alan's findings or paraphernalia. Maybe encourage Alan to be more forthcoming with his massive archive of knowledge and input.. We are at the end of the day talking about someone who has lived the culture, and the racing scene in depth. Been up close and personal with the cars, the drivers, the pedigree and origin of these cars and parts. There are more than obvious reasons why Alan is reluctant to share some sensative information, and it is more to do with how the culture of the Japanese contingency would percieve that sharing of knowledge rather than the fact that Nismo themselves would rather it wasn't shared.......In simple terms, Mr Kipling doesn't divulge his family recipies.
I have some paperwork here myself from some very respected members of Nismo from when i was researching the books about the set ups of some of the older race cars, and i must say that like the paperwork Alan has, like mine, doesn't support the fact that any imperial parts were used, or infact modified to be used with counterparts. I would too suggest that these parts in question were very possibly USA made for a totally different market and subsequently have made their way into various builds and set ups.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

paul creed said:


> I don't think there is any occasion to challenge the 'validity' of any of Alan's findings or paraphernalia. Maybe encourage Alan to be more forthcoming with his massive archive of knowledge and input.. We are at the end of the day talking about someone who has lived the culture, and the racing scene in depth. Been up close and personal with the cars, the drivers, the pedigree and origin of these cars and parts. There are more than obvious reasons why Alan is reluctant to share some sensative information, and it is more to do with how the culture of the Japanese contingency would percieve that sharing of knowledge rather than the fact that Nismo themselves would rather it wasn't shared.......In simple terms, Mr Kipling doesn't divulge his family recipies.
> I have some paperwork here myself from some very respected members of Nismo from when i was researching the books about the set ups of some of the older race cars, and i must say that like the paperwork Alan has, like mine, doesn't support the fact that any imperial parts were used, or infact modified to be used with counterparts. I would too suggest that these parts in question were very possibly USA made for a totally different market and subsequently have made their way into various builds and set ups.


Before jumping to conclusions, let me take some pics of my Nismo part numbered magnesium hubs, showing the bolt sizes etc.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Chris, exacty what I thought too.
As soon as anyone mentions Japan and imperial my argumentative side sides kicking in ...
I suspect you are 100% right.

But I have myself done things like tapped out m10x1.25 captivated nuts in chassis's, to 7/16 unf simply because the thread is rooted and 7/16 unf is near as dammit to 11mm which is easily accomodated into a 10mm nut, but going to 12mm would be a total failure as there wouldnt be enough material to support it.
Im not making any predetermined suggestions on the out come of the imperial thing, but if you were going to the n'th degree for strength, if you do the calcs on what you do have available, you may want to go to the next size up ie: 12mm is only (say 10x) safety / failure mode, but to go to 12.7 is 15x for only a 5% weight increase etc: 
And 14mm os just plain too big and too heavy....
Who knows..


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Chris, exacty what I thought too.
> As soon as anyone mentions Japan and imperial my argumentative side sides kicking in ...
> I suspect you are 100% right.
> 
> ...


Yup, That's what I thought Glenn, When I look around my family's motorsport workshop, anything that is to do with suspension arms/joints is always imperial, That is why I think if it is unf it will be Gibson built....It is off the shelf in NZ and Aussie, Unlike Metric Nismo parts, And being almost exactly the same, there would be no need to have them specially Homologated.

....I remember reading an article years ago after Fred Gibson retired from Motorsport, He told of times that they used to box up local made items in Nismo boxes to show the officials (There was an Intercooler that was mentioned in the article)

Chris.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A*

I am sure the parts that I have in my possession are genuine Nismo parts, yes they are from the Gibson cars but has been said in various publications that Nismo japan sent them suspension over as a complete bolt in package. I also have arms that gibson have fabricated and there is a a difinate difference to the ones that I believe are Nismo items.

There is a chance that there were differences in various parts, for example Nismo offered the Group A car for sale to privateers for Y55,000,000 back in the early 90's and I am sure they would have had to settle ona spec before they deliered any sold units. But in addition to this they would have kept developing their works cars as would have Nissan Australia. Given Nissan Australia is owned by Nissan Japan then there was every chance that Nissan Aust received updates from Japan and technical assistance.

PB-30 is the parts list for the Nismo cars or the customer cars, do you know this detail?

Yes I agree the imperial sphericals are a weird thing to find on a Japanese part and this may have been done by Gibson, but would be strange given the fact that they continually had parts coming from Japan for their cars and to reengineer the hub and arms just because parts were available locally does not make much sense. So what I am saying is that the metric parts would have been easily available to them

Here is a few pics, you can see the part numbers on the hubs.
Front hub









Inserts and sleeves look total original without any secondary machining done to change them, there are no marks on the casting to indicate they have been removed either. (Any one is welcome to visit my office in Auckland and have a look if they like)









Nismo hydra formed arm, this is identical to those in Alan's pics, but it does have imperial inner sphericals.











Same part but made by Gibson, completely different and consistent with parts photograhed on their cars later in their racing years










Rear hub part number, 










Rear hub









I believe these parts are actual genuine items and yes they can be altered during their life, but no more so than a parts list can be changed for different evolutions of car parts.
If they are not genuine then it would have cost Gibson (Nissan Australia) more than the originals were to purchase from Nismo and would not make any sense whatsoever.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I don't doubt that the parts are genuine, But as Glenn mentioned, You might find that the Metric inserts were replaced by Gibson's when the factory ones wore out? As again, they would be much easier and cheaper to get.....Case in point are the Nismo vs Gibson Magnesium wheels, The Nismo wheels wore out so fast that Gibson got a local casting company to make the 5 spoke wheels they ran instead of buying the expensive Nismo items. 

Either was it should be amazing when you are finished, I would love to have a look at it when you have it on the track.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Sub Boy said:


> I don't doubt that the parts are genuine, But as Glenn mentioned, You might find that the Metric inserts were replaced by Gibson's when the factory ones wore out? As again, they would be much easier and cheaper to get.....Case in point are the Nismo vs Gibson Magnesium wheels, The Nismo wheels wore out so fast that Gibson got a local casting company to make the 5 spoke wheels they ran instead of buying the expensive Nismo items.
> 
> Either was it should be amazing when you are finished, I would love to have a look at it when you have it on the track.


I have had an interest race cars and performance engineering for a long time and agree about local content saving money, but if you had a look at the hubs there is no sign of secondary engineering being done at all. I have had a lot of race parts fabricated, machined over time and if you make a modification to them after they are removed from the machine that did the original job there will allways be tell tale marks mecause of very minor misallignment.

The sphericals will wear but I doubt the inserts would as they have a bolt in them when in use that should not move.

Gibson had their magnesium wheels made by Cast Alloy in Adelaide, apart from the Nismo supplied ones cracking, apparently they had issues with wheels coming loose so they enlarged the mounting nut size at the same time.(bore 72mm pitch of thread 2.5mm)
I have two sets of these here, they are quite light and the construction is not to bad given how old they are, but would not compare to a modern one made by Rays as used in ALMS.
I can understand high turnover parts being made locally but I don't think hubs fall into that category

Anyway this is just my opinion from looking at the parts but there have been other owners of these parts and only they will truely know.

If you are up in Auckland drop by and have a look if you like


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> One of my upper arm sets is definaltely made by Gibson, but the other one is definately a nismo item and has been hydra formed the same as those in your pictures. No one would go to the effort, or have access to the machinery to manufacture one this way if the were being made locally. I would say that either the list has changed later or the arms I have were earlier or later ones.


But _why_ would NISMO suddenly change from Metric to Imperial or vice-versa? Such a changeover would be hugely expensive ( surely more expensive than 'cheaper' Imperial components could cover ) and a logistical nightmare. New stress analysis / testing, new drawings, new casting / fabricating / machining where necessary, new on-car testing ( in between racing..? ), and all the aggravation of the changeover. After all that, there's then two different sets of everything and you still have to make the old stuff as it's already in circulation and spares / replacements are needed. Doesn't make any sense.

However, I could believe that GMS might have requested that NISMO supply parts with GMS-specced Imperial fasteners, sphericals and etc. especially for GMS use. And I could well understand if GMS decided to make their own locally-sourced versions of certain components. Why? Well, take a look at the quoted prices for individual components on the kit list page I attached in my last post. Just a single RH inner upright ( NISMO part number43021-X0R60 ) cost 453,750 JPY ( plus tax! ) and the Titanium upper link collars were 8,000 JPY each and you needed 8 of them. It all adds up, and you'd need multiple spares too.... 

I would have thought some of the ex-GMS staff could clear this locally sourced / GMS-specced Imperial question up quite clearly if they were asked. And, come to think of it, what's on the ex-GMS cars now? 



fun123 said:


> Do you have the front partlist? does it mention metric lower outer sphericals?


I have the full 'kit list' for the whole car. Its a big fat folder that weighs over 3kg, and goes into every aspect of a NISMO Gr.A car. 

Front Transverse Link outer sphericals are given part number 54901-A7610 ( indicating a part already in Nissan use ) as are the outer brgs on the Upper Links. Others are again MBW T16 and some MBW T10. No indication of Imperial sized parts. 



fun123 said:


> Also what about dimensions, do you have anything that gives the pipe size for the upper arm? I could compare it to mine


There are unfortunately no such dimensions for fabricated components in the kit list. That data is on the original drawings for the individual components, and I don't have them. 



fun123 said:


> PB-30 is the parts list for the Nismo cars or the customer cars, do you know this detail?


The kit list I have came direct from NISMO Omori, and was for the works NISMO cars. It's in internal-use document ( hence the names of the individual component manufacturers / suppliers in the far right hand column, which is one of the most sensitive parts of it... ) and was not supposed to get into the hands of 'civilians' like me. Actually, I can't think of all that many 'customer' Group A cars in-period. Group N yes, plenty. Group A, only a handful. 



fun123 said:


> Do you have a close up pic of the rear upper arm from the cars that you have photographed? I will post one of mine and see where the difference is.


I'll dig some out. Stand by.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

fun123 said:


> Here is a few pics, you can see the part numbers on the hubs.
> Front hub
> 
> 
> ...


Are you sure they are part numbers? The letters A, B, C, D etc match up with the Type A, B, C, D etc as seen in the homologation papers, but the '9013' and '9015' numbers are not NISMO part numbers, and they don't match up with the kit list.

My immediate reaction - based on looking into 'kensaku' / QC control numbers on other, older, Japanese-manufactured cars and their components - is that these are QC control and/or 'life' dating stamps. The '90' could well be 1990, and the other numbers a day and month. 

Not trying to teach my grandmother to suck eggs or anything, but high-stress race componentry is often 'lifed' ( especially Magnesium castings like these hubs / uprights ) or at least marked with a birth/mnf/QC date to assist in assessment.

Unless you have any paperwork that would show it as a part number?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Has anyone got an original Group A pedal box assembly? I am interested in the leverage ratio used. IE, pedal foot pad to pivot length V pedal pivot to master cylinder bias bar hole length. Thanks.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

More photos of original NISMO parts in Japan:


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

However, I could believe that GMS might have requested that NISMO supply parts with GMS-specced Imperial fasteners, sphericals and etc. especially for GMS use. And I could well understand if GMS decided to make their own locally-sourced versions of certain components. Why? Well, take a look at the quoted prices for individual components on the kit list page I attached in my last post. Just a single RH inner upright ( NISMO part number43021-X0R60 ) cost 453,750 JPY ( plus tax! ) and the Titanium upper link collars were 8,000 JPY each and you needed 8 of them. It all adds up, and you'd need multiple spares too.... 

I would have thought some of the ex-GMS staff could clear this locally sourced / GMS-specced Imperial question up quite clearly if they were asked. And, come to think of it, what's on the ex-GMS cars now? 


The part list must have been that available to customer cars also as it has been priced 

Actually the pricing isn't too bad considering the amount of R & D carried out, if they were available certainly wouldn't stop me from ordering some (even taken into account inflation). As a comparison my brake setup cost about the same as these uprights per corner and they are only forged alluminium.


----------



## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Some more group A stuff*

Here is a sample of the Gibson/Nismo parts list.
It appeared to not have a parts price




















Also a pic of the Nismo engine and gibson engine
Notice the modified engine mount Gibson Motorsport used to cure the problems they had with cracked blocks.

























A good pic of the gibson rear suspension(I think this is off the 1992 car)









There seems to be very few pictures of the front suspension of these cars, does anyone have any they can upload?


----------



## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

There seems to be very few pictures of the front suspension of these cars, does anyone have any they can upload?[/QUOTE]

I have been asking for pics of front suspension for years and never managed to find any!
The mag uprights you have will they be not be suspect to crack as they are very old?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I think I would be a lot happier having old mag castings digitised and CNC'd from billet alloy if possible


----------



## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Did any of these cars run the thick walled blocks Nismo produced, the ones which are apparently very rare these days with a thick head face, and thick bore walls?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

RKTuning said:


> There seems to be very few pictures of the front suspension of these cars, does anyone have any they can upload?
> I have been asking for pics of front suspension for years and never managed to find any!
> The mag uprights you have will they be not be suspect to crack as they are very old?



I have never seen any in situ front suspension pictures (Except one low res one from the Gibson car that was sold to Malaysia) , only of the parts

PB30, do you have any?

My engineer doesn't think the uprights will crack, but I guess time will tell.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Chris Wilson said:


> Did any of these cars run the thick walled blocks Nismo produced, the ones which are apparently very rare these days with a thick head face, and thick bore walls?


From what I have been told I believe the Gibson car used the Group A block you are talking about.If the Gibson did then the Nismo one would be at least that spec


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Chris Wilson said:


> I think I would be a lot happier having old mag castings digitised and CNC'd from billet alloy if possible


Better off casting them again in Magnesium, they are such a big piece that they would be too heaving in Alluminium.

All the Group A cars out there including most of the Gibson ones are still in use and seem to have no problems with the uprights.

Does Magnesium deteriorate over time, which leads to cracking? anyone had any experience with this?

The rear uprights would never had been designed the way they were if it wasn't for the restrictions of Group A. They have built in camber adjusters which makes them a very heavy unit. The reason they needed these is because the pickup points were not parallel to the wheel, therefore there was no simple way of adjusting camber within the arm mount points. his is the reason the A arms do not have adjusters on them (Rose joints or shims)


----------



## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

And if I can ask a similar question....

When were the first N! blocks available?
I assume they were the blocks that were homologated for Grp A?

The reason I ask is my R32 is build no 471 (BNR-0000471) and has an N1 block that I think is the original. So far it is the only one of the first 500 that I have seen that has that block.
The car had 110,000km on the clock and was virtually std when I bought it. Only a set of Tomei pods, Apexi cooler, Greedy hard pipe kit and a set of wheels. Even the brake discs looked like the original cross drilled originals.
Even if the motor had been rebuilt in Japan I don't think they would have fitted a N1 block and left everything else totally std......??


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

TTOBES said:


> And if I can ask a similar question....
> 
> When were the first N! blocks available?
> I assume they were the blocks that were homologated for Grp A?
> ...


Group A blocks are different from standard(O5U), N1(24U) and RRR 
Also N1 blocks have been changed recently, they now have a higher nickel content. Apparently they are almost as strong as the RRR


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## TTOBES (Sep 28, 2007)

>Cheers for that:thumbsup:

Do you know if the N1 blocks were available that early in the R32 production...?


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Old vid from 1990's*

Old video's, shows rear suspension again and a glimpse of the front

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkKyQPao9DU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcT7C_Npp-s


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A*

I will have the Group A parts modelled up on Solid works from this Scan data to show it insitu with correct geometry.

Scan is to 50 microns in accuracy

Here is a snap of the underbody, will post hubs etc soon, then post all components assembled


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## turbojerry (Jul 27, 2009)

Close up at the taisan r32 gr.A  

Gr.A R32 GT-R (2) - YouTube


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

^^^^^^^^^^
Awesomeness!!!!
:thumbsup:
Bob


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## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

Have you seen the third video where he is driving it? 

Interesting under shots. You can see the reinforced rear subframe and Rose jointed arms. Giving me more ideas.


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## BCNR33GT-R (Apr 6, 2011)

Have you hole book of regulation for this car like the picture above in thread? Is it possible to get parts anymore for this era of cars? 

Fun or PS30?

Intrested of more if possible.


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## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

*Group A parts*

Hi,

It is not possible to get parts from these car, I have contacted both Nismo and Gibson Motorsport, the only two companies that made parts for these cars and they both do not have anything left. 
Gibson has also discarded the moulds they had for the hubs and wheels and also the Jig's for the suspension parts.
When Nismo rebuilt the Taisan car they re-manufactured the hubs from billet aluminium as a one off (They were originally cast magnesium) 


Only way now is to make your own replica parts

I do have an original Group A 6 speed dog box transmission with Magnesium bell housing (made by Holinger and as used by both Nismo and Gibson) which I could sell you if you are interested. It is fully rebuilt.
I also could arrange some suspension parts to be duplicated, but they would probably end up quite costly.


----------



## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Problem with these sorts of cars, just like Group C or F1 is they are in a constant state of development and parts change throughout the season. Sometimes minor parts, sometimes major. The converse are spec class cars from major manufacturers, like the Audi TT race series cars, where they make dozens, identical in all regards. Buying something like that makes parts much easier to find or replicate. Open (ish...) series like Touring Cars, change stuff on a race by race, evolutionary basis, making spares a nightmare to source.


Even finding period tyres, around which the suspension would have been designed can be a problem, or plain impossible. 


Did I mention cheating? What they say they run, or is on the sponsorship decals, may be a mile apart from what's really on the car. Remember the Audi V8 Touring car found to have a flat plane crank? Audi claimed they just bent an opposed crank.... Yeah, right! get the right financial director at the right time and manufacturers sign off some really radical spending on bizarre stuff! It often gets cut up with a sigh of relief no one has caught them when the race is won!


Not saying NISMO were bent, just saying this to explain why parts change or may not be what they appear. Last example, Group A Volvo 240 Turbos. Live rear axle, no way they can have negative camber, right? Hell, no, special centre housings with tubes inserted at 1.5 and more degrees angle, to suit a given track. Custom shafts and side gears with ball ended splines, allow misalignment, but wear like HELL, and get binned every race. I got chased down the back of the pit garages at Silverstone by two VERY angry Swedes when I took underside photos of an RAS Volvo 240 with a camera on a broom handle, whilst the mechanics were chatting up my girlfriend, whom I asked to distract them. Nothing terribly exciting to see on film, but they were pretty paranoid in those days about who sees what. And my bloody girlfriend emigrated to Gotenburg six months later, I still wonder about wheter it was anything to do with those oily blonde haired oiks....


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## afb312 (May 12, 2006)

*Homologation*

Group A was a lot more restricted than those other series. The homologation papers loged with the FIA had to include all the mods and pics etc. There are two papers that I have. I'll have to go and look at the numbers though. My car does have different hubs (being the ex Spanish Touring car champion). They even have the NISMO part numbers still on them.


----------



## afb312 (May 12, 2006)

Homologation sheets numbers are:

A-5405 Grp. A
N-5405 Grp. N

These were very heavily policed; especially down under as there was sever anti Nissan feeling from the traditional Holden / Ford camps.
I recall there was a fair bit of argument about all sorts of items, brake air intake positioning etc. In the end as we all know the boost was cut with a huge F1 blow off valve mounted on the intake plenum and the weight increased. They even ran with the electric windows! The overall result was the same with the GT-R triumphant. Winning all championships until banned outright. The other Japanese manufactures were not prepared to compete and spat the dummy... We won't play until that GT-R is banned... 

Either way the sheets contain interesting items like the alternative brake callipers, water cooling and strange shaped bumper brake scoops.


----------



## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I think you will find Chris is correct, the papers might show one thing, but what was on the cars could differ quite a bit.
I read an interview with Frank Gibson (Gibson/Nissan Motorsport Australia) and he talked about the tricks they did to "bend" the rules a little. One that I remember was the inter cooler on the R31's, he custom made up what he wanted to use and put it in a Nismo box....and there was plenty more.


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## afb312 (May 12, 2006)

I'm sure you're both right in that rules were flexed where possible. It is just a case of how much. There's no doubt that the car driving public are worse off as soon as the rules were degraded to allow non homologated wings and brakes etc into the sport. It just ment that the homologation specials were dumbed down and no longer so special. 
Back to the homologation sheets. These show the suspension components and as you will see they differ from the production items a fair bit, being much stronger and stiffer.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Sub Boy said:


> I think you will find Chris is correct, the papers might show one thing, but what was on the cars could differ quite a bit.
> I read an interview with Frank Gibson (Gibson/Nissan Motorsport Australia) and he talked about the tricks they did to "bend" the rules a little. One that I remember was the inter cooler on the R31's, he custom made up what he wanted to use and put it in a Nismo box....and there was plenty more.


Any blatant cheating would be easily discovered and protested by other teams and manufacturers in the latter period of Gr.A racing. Lots of little stuff always went on (still does...) and 'everybody's at it' usually applied, but anything deemed a step too far would be pounced on. 

If anybody knows of any blatant un-homologated 'cheats' or demon tweaks with the Gr.A Skyline GT-R then they might like to tell us about them here for some good conversation. 



afb312 said:


> The overall result was the same with the GT-R triumphant. Winning all championships until banned outright.


Except the GT-R was never specifically "banned outright", was it? This story has been repeated so many times it has taken on its own reality.

About the homologation papers: They are 'free' to anybody who wants to pay the fee and buy them from their local FIA-affiliated motorsport governing body, or direct from the FIA themselves. Apply to JAF in Japan and you get a much nicer set than the crappy photocopies of photocopies you'll get elsewhere.


----------



## afb312 (May 12, 2006)

I agree about the crappy photo copies !

The "banning outright" is smoke and mirrors but as they were the only 4WD car represented it is what it came to. Nissan had paid for the development of the homologated car and it was shameful that all the "poor" other players which are all global manufacturers could not / would not pay to play (and to sell the public something decent). Ford, GM, Toyota, Mitsubishi, etc. It is without doubt the strongest admission of defeat there is!


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Agree with PS30-SB, the 32 wasn't banned, but that incorrect "fact" has made it's way into lore, just like Twinkies lasting forever or Hitler built the Nordschleife.
CAMS adopted FIA SuperTouring rules which had been in place since the late 80's. The 32 continued race 4wd in Japan in JTCC and so subsequently did the 33 and 34 in Super Taikyu where they were equally successful.


----------



## afb312 (May 12, 2006)

Japanese Grp A championship rules changed too in end of '93. The JGTC (Japanese Grand Touring Championship) then came along with many performance equalising penalties and dumbing down to reduce cost. Least ways these R33's were the cars that they took to LeMans and they were certainly 2WD but running under the entry of the Japanese rules. I remember watching them run to a fith position or so result.
There was briefly a Japanese GT championship that the R32's caught a season of, but they were running against full on GT cars, not touring cars. They ran with 4WD then. I could look into it further, but not just now.


----------



## Brypar (Feb 18, 2016)

fun123 said:


> I will have the Group A parts modelled up on Solid works from this Scan data to show it insitu with correct geometry.
> 
> Scan is to 50 microns in accuracy
> 
> Here is a snap of the underbody, will post hubs etc soon, then post all components assembled


I've just been reading through your posts relating to the Group A R32 suspension.

I run a small engineering business in Sydney, Australia and we specialise in motorsport uprights. We're currently doing some research around the R32 as a lot of people track these cars and quite often have very strange geometry with a lot of bind because they're not doing things properly.

We will be manufacturing complete uprights for the front and rear and potentially wishbones to suit the package.

Seeing your photos finally gave me an idea of what was happening on the front of the Group A cars but I'm still going to need a lot more information.

Would you be willing to chat about your findings? Have you modelled the suspension completely? Is your model based off the Group A geometry?


----------



## BCNR33GT-R (Apr 6, 2011)

Brypar said:


> I've just been reading through your posts relating to the Group A R32 suspension.
> 
> I run a small engineering business in Sydney, Australia and we specialise in motorsport uprights. We're currently doing some research around the R32 as a lot of people track these cars and quite often have very strange geometry with a lot of bind because they're not doing things properly.
> 
> ...


When you have the mouldings done and have the kit for sale i am in for hole set front plus rear. :bowdown1:


----------



## Brypar (Feb 18, 2016)

I don't think we'll be casting but will be CNC-ing them. If we can make the kit as close to Group A spec as possible so that general racers as well as those wanting to build replica cars car and keep things looking as period as possible. Ideally getting hold of original parts to scan and measure would be the best bet but not sure that will ever happen.


----------



## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Brypar said:


> I don't think we'll be casting but will be CNC-ing them. If we can make the kit as close to Group A spec as possible so that general racers as well as those wanting to build replica cars car and keep things looking as period as possible. Ideally getting hold of original parts to scan and measure would be the best bet but not sure that will ever happen.


I run the original Group A uprights on my car, it makes the handling totally different.

The problem with the road car ones is the King pin angle (from memory I think it is something like 35 degrees, where as the Group A ones are around 12 degrees)

Binding is a major problem with the front and rear factory setup if you want to use sphericals or rod ends. 

If you are starting from scratch make the front double A arm as even the Group A J arm setup has nasty camber and caster change when going through its travel

The Group A uprights are quite large and complex, this is probably the reason they are cast in Magnesium. If you are going to CNC machine from alloy billet, I would change the design otherwise they will weight too much


----------



## Brypar (Feb 18, 2016)

By double wishbone do you mean remove the upper section and moving the upper arm down to about chassis rail height? The main issue with doing this (and while I agree it's a much better setup) is that you're asking guys to make massive modifications to their chassis.

There is a solution, just haven't worked it out yet...


----------



## fun123 (Apr 16, 2010)

Brypar said:


> By double wishbone do you mean remove the upper section and moving the upper arm down to about chassis rail height? The main issue with doing this (and while I agree it's a much better setup) is that you're asking guys to make massive modifications to their chassis.
> 
> There is a solution, just haven't worked it out yet...


Plates will need to be welded into the side of the chassis rail.

If you want to go the other way with the J arm then it will cost a lot more.

The guy who made the original J arms for Gibson Motorsport could make you some J arms but it will cost you $8000 AUD plus GST. He would copy them from an original set. They are complex and to be honest a bad setup.


----------



## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

It is surprising how quick R32GTRs are on circuit considering the geometry they have.

I have been looking at getting an improved toppling made, as the UAS pivoting toplink doesn't appear to be in stock currently, unless any of you guys know one which allows for the 'twisting' motion when the suspension compresses?

Oh, fun123, your project is awesome btw!

Cheers,

Mark


----------



## mgtkr1 (Aug 27, 2015)

where the group a cars required to run the 4 wheel steering (hicas) or where they allowed to get rid.the reason i ask, if it was removed then why did they persist with it on later models (road cars)


----------



## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

mgtkr1 said:


> where the group a cars required to run the 4 wheel steering (hicas) or where they allowed to get rid.the reason i ask, if it was removed then why did they persist with it on later models (road cars)


I cant vouch for the Jap spec GrpA cars but the Gibson (Aussie) cars had the HICAS removed, Fred Gibson spoke in an interview about it and said it was something they would look to develop later on but at that stage it was locked.


----------



## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

I've seen pictures of it still connected on the Grp A Calsonic car. All lines replaced with BMRS hoses.


----------



## GT-R David (Mar 13, 2013)

I have seen the Calsonic car in person two months ago. It has a Hicas lockout bar installed.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

GT-R David said:


> I have seen the Calsonic car in person two months ago. It has a Hicas lockout bar installed.


So that was two months ago. I saw 'it' (there was/is more than one Calsonic Gr.A R32 GT-R) racing in period 26 years ago, and they were using HICAS.


----------



## mgtkr1 (Aug 27, 2015)

GT-R David said:


> I have seen the Calsonic car in person two months ago. It has a Hicas lockout bar installed.


not a driftworks one i take


----------



## RWMS (Jan 31, 2019)

Hi,

I work for a small motorsport engineering company based in the UK and we are building a replica of the Group A R32. 

Good, reliable information about these cars is proving hard to come by. However after reading through this thread I can see that you guys hold a vast amount of knowledge between you. 

As previously said in this thread, this is also my first real insight in to how the suspension was designed from looking at your pictures. 

Would it be possible to find out more details? Or please could you point me in the right direction to help me with my research, it would be much appreciated. 

Because these cars are really rare we are trying to make a faithful replica and a great tribute to the original car.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Like most factory race cars the specs changed and evolved constantly but somewhere I have some photos of stuff that may be of interest. I'll try and find them...


----------



## nickedclogs (May 14, 2011)

RWMS said:


> Hi,
> 
> I work for a small motorsport engineering company based in the UK and we are building a replica of the Group A R32.
> 
> ...


Hi mate. Who is the small engineering company and what is the aim with the project? It's possible I could have some info that would be mutually beneficial, but I'd like to know where you guys are heading with this first! How faithful is the replication? Casting your own Group A uprights faithful?

J


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

RWMS said:


> Hi,
> 
> I work for a small motorsport engineering company based in the UK and we are building a replica of the Group A R32.
> 
> ...


I'd be interested to hear just how far you plan to go with a 'replica', bearing in mind the true definition of the word.

Two recommendations, both books:

*'GT-R Race Shiyo-sha No Gijitsu Kaihatsu' by ISHIDA Yoshiyuki and SANDO Hiroshi, originally published in 1994 by 'Grand Prix Shuppan' with ISBN 4-87687-152-3 



A small-format technical book with in-depth analysis of the Gr.A and Gr.N R32s with plenty of interesting details. Yes it's in Japanese, but you'll still learn plenty from it even if you don't read Japanese. 

*'R32 GT-R Racing Legend - Group A No Zanzo' a spin-off from the publishers of GT-R Magazine, this particular copy published in 2016 has ISBN 978-4-86452-186-6 



A magazine-format 'mook' with seriously in-depth analysis of the works Gr.A R32s, covering concept, planning, design, engineering, development and racing. Interviews with major protagonists and plenty of excellent photographs. They also got the blessing of NISMO to allow them to publish many excerpts from the NISMO 'kit list' for the Gr.A cars, mostly hand-drawn technical illustrations for the components and assemblies on the cars. 





They also included a reproduction of the JAF JA-137 homologation papers for the cars which are a lot clearer than the FISA A-5405 homologation papers that you can get from the FIA (and for which they used to charge a fee). These are very useful. 

 


In my opinion it would be almost impossible to fully replicate one of the works Gr.A R32s. There's just too many special parts on them. Even a 'lookalike' would be fairly involved.


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## RWMS (Jan 31, 2019)

The company is called Ric Wood Motorsport and we are based in Manchester. We have the facilities and the resources to reproduce all of the cars components. However we can only be as accurate as the information I can find.

We are going to the extent of having the callipers, suspension components and all other aspects of the vehicle replicated as closely as possible so that the car can be assigned FIA papers. We have experience in building FIA eligible cars having completed numerous capris of various specs.

The more information we are able to collect, the closer and more accurately we'll be able to get the replica to the original car.

Thanks, I***8217;ll try to find copies of those books but they are proving hard to find. Also I have a copy of the FISA papers and you***8217;re correct the pictures really aren***8217;t very clear.


----------



## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

RWMS said:


> Thanks, I’ll try to find copies of those books but they are proving hard to find. Also I have a copy of the FISA papers and you’re correct the pictures really aren’t very clear.


You can buy the Racing Legend mook through Amazon Japan. Here's a current listing:

https://www.amazon.co.jp/R32-GT-R-R...QFGE1MFQAF3&psc=1&refRID=S9VMAPY4XQFGE1MFQAF3

If you're going for an FIA HTP you'll have the 'advantage' that the inspector is - from my experience - very unlikely to know what he's supposed to be looking at...


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

PS30-SB said:


> You can buy the Racing Legend mook through Amazon Japan. Here's a current listing:
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.jp/R32-GT-R-R...QFGE1MFQAF3&psc=1&refRID=S9VMAPY4XQFGE1MFQAF3
> 
> If you're going for an FIA HTP you'll have the 'advantage' that the inspector is - from my experience - very unlikely to know what he's supposed to be looking at...


Thankyou

I will be buying that. 

Anyone interested in seeing the translation


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## KyleV77 (Apr 3, 2021)

lightspeed said:


> I have loads of books and info on these Group A cars - mostly in Japanese. Although I do have a copy of the FIA homologation papers too.
> 
> As our expert PS30-SB stated, the Grp A suspension is far removed from the production car and unless you have a lottery win, impossible to copy. Geometry settings would be useless on a normal R32


Can you send them over bro? Looking into doing a project like this with my father… I know this is a bit late lol.


cheers!
Kyle V


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## nickedclogs (May 14, 2011)

KyleV77 said:


> Can you send them over bro? Looking into doing a project like this with my father… I know this is a bit late lol.
> 
> 
> cheers!
> Kyle V


The papers are freely available on the FIA website. They won't help you build a car though!


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