# Trouble Making?



## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Now I don't believe this thread will last but a couple of minutes and apologies in advance Andy.

Of all the reasons to lock a thread you site me for trouble making, seriously?

This is making a mockery of what a forum is supposed to be about; this is a community where we're supposed to look out for each other and not have to resort to walking on broken egg shells. 

The simple fact is that people make mistakes and to err is human. 
It's how we as individuals or companies deal with those errors that sets us apart.

I'll openly state now that I have no personal issue or axe to grind whatsoever with Mark at MGT Racing or Tuning, whatever this week's company name is. I simply don't care at all. 

But I do object to him personally slagging me off, my garage of choice and my decease friend off; that does not mean I am trying to ruin his business, it's merely a statement of fact - I genuinely don't appreciate or tolerate those tactics. 

Also, by me stating that my solicitor is also handling legal cases against said company(s) is not a further attempt to ruin their business, it is also a statement of fact that I can quite easily substantiate and hereby take full legal responsibility of my post away from the forum owner or administration for any legal recourse threatened by any party feeling aggrieved by my post. In other words, if you don't like what I have to say Mark, why don't you try issuing one of those empty legal threats in my direction? I'll happily take one on for you. 

So that is the record set well and truly straight. 

Thank you. Carry on.


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## Supertec (Jun 5, 2014)

Andy/Mook can you please unlock my thread. 

No one is making any trouble apart from stating the facts. We have the right to address our customers against incorrect, false and misleading information being spread by certain individuals/Tuner.


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## nailsgtr600 (Aug 2, 2007)

Matt can't you play connect 4 or something?


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

nailsgtr600 said:


> Matt can't you play connect 4 or something?


If that's what you and others want then that's fine by me Rich, I never asked to get dragged into other people's legal disputes, they came to me for help. Should I just sit back and ignore their requests for help? It looses friendships as you know but I've always said I'd try and help others going through what I had to endure.


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## nailsgtr600 (Aug 2, 2007)

matt I'm cooking I've got my kids and another thread like this is boring! If it's legal let it be and I'm sure a satisfactory end will come of it! All this does is drag the forum and users down!


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

You're a grown man Rich, if it's boring to you then simply don't read it. That's the beauty about an educated freedom of choice.


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

As an outsider so to speak to this subject I'd like to add my 2ps worth.

As somebody who purchased a gtr off these boards back in April, whilst I've enjoyed it immensely, I have certainly noticed a very bitchy trend emerging.

Just for the record, I needed a small bit of diagnosis work undertaking on my 33 and approached Abbey, after the car being booked in 2 weeks in advance, cut a long story short, after a further two weeks I contacted them to be told they had forgotten they had the car in their possession, it had been overlooked and nothing had been dealt with. Needless to say, I promptly collected the car and put it down to me being the poor sod who got this level of service (there's always one and there's more to my life than tuner wars and cars).
Incidentally I PM'd Matt for the contact details of his preferred tuner, which he kindly provided, so as I could try them for my issues and in the end they never came back to me to book my car in. 
I've no dealings with MGT whatsoever and they were going to be next on my list of respected tuners but threads such as this (and others) do little to inspire confidence.
All forums go like this at some time or another and I myself have been moderating another forum in another area for many years.
Ultimately, as a gtr owner in Sussex where do I bloody go if I need work doing that can just undertake a simple business transaction in exchange for money ?


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Clarkep said:


> Ultimately, as a gtr owner in Sussex where do I bloody go if I need work doing that can just undertake a simple business transaction in exchange for money ?



SRD SRD Tuning - Supra, GTR and Performance Cars Customisation


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

*Sorry but you don't speak for all of us nailsgtr600....*



nailsgtr600 said:


> *All this does is drag the forum and users down!*


Well I for one don't find topics like this boring or feel like these are bringing the forum into disrepute either so you are not representing all of us in this small community. In fact because I am not a rich man or well in with the _"Skyline GT-R"_ hierarchy I find all of these kinds of threads to be most informative due to the fact that they have the potential from preventing me from making a huge or very costly mistake nailsgtr600!

Likewise how a business responds to customer criticism here on our forum also helps all of us outsiders to judge all the characters involved in such disputes. 

And just in case you think I'm just talking out of my 4r$e here, I bought my Skyline GT-R with Tuning history from probably one of the most slated Skyline Experts going on the World Wide Web...one _"Rising Sun Performance"_ but if I was to believe absolutely everything bad that was written about this fella's company(s) or Richard Bell himself as being 110% true....then I should have turned my back on my car and run for the hills as quickly as possible!

But I didn't! Instead I took quite a few hours to look over said vehicle and try to work out what had been fitted to it and bought it on what I could physically see or experience and NOT what my best friends sisters neighbours aunty thought was possibly true. 

So please Mods stop locking threads like these so dam quickly and let them take their natural course so they allow others _(just like me)_ to make our own minds up about said individuals! 

Thank you! 

JM2PW!


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## RossC (Oct 20, 2014)

I manage a busy workshop and race team and must say fogetting you have a car of a customers is almost unbelievable. There is never any on this backstabbing and bitchiness between race teams, you are all there to make a living and everyone offers a slightly different service. I do not understand why that is not the same between "tuners"


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## Supertec (Jun 5, 2014)

Wish it was that simple ClarkeP. The tuner Matt probably mentioned to you I know well, he is a decent person, I would try him again. I know he has been rather busy of late and might have just slipped his mind.

When we setup here last year we had a back lash from a select few who couldn't accept someone new joining the scene, one went mad and started kicking off at the supplier because our prices were apparently "too" low (only 5% below rrp and was agreed with the supplier) never heard much from that tuner or any such reports since. The other continued to this day. 

We deal with some of the other known traders and tuners on this forum and have supplied parts etc and never had any issues with others nor do we have any axe to grind against anyone else.


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## Supertec (Jun 5, 2014)

RossC said:


> I manage a busy workshop and race team and must say fogetting you have a car of a customers is almost unbelievable. There is never any on this backstabbing and bitchiness between race teams, you are all there to make a living and everyone offers a slightly different service. I do not understand why that is not the same between "tuners"


Well said, whilst racing, but also being with a friend at race events I met various teams and Ross being part of one of the rival teams, I saw this first hand people would sometimes work together, sometimes helping each other out, loaning another teams a part or what have you. There is absolutely no need for the kind of things that sometimes go on here.


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

It certainly can be simple, people for whatever reasons just choose to not make it so. 

I think part of the problem lay in your reply below somewhat, nobody is generally digging at individuals moral standing (I'm certainly not), they just want their car fixed. 

In my line of work if you wait for people to pester you over and over to take their money you've already lost. If todays tuners can afford to operate as such then fair play to them, they must have a very large chunk of a market to do so.

I'm in the process of building an extension at home and every builder I've been in touch with has returned my calls and got in touch when they said they would..... and we all know what builders reputations are like lol





Supertec said:


> *Wish it was that simple ClarkeP. The tuner Matt probably mentioned to you I know well, he is a decent person, I would try him again. I know he has been rather busy of late and might have just slipped his mind.*
> 
> When we setup here last year we had a back lash from a select few who couldn't accept someone new joining the scene, one went mad and started kicking off at the supplier because our prices were apparently "too" low (only 5% below rrp and was agreed with the supplier) never heard much from that tuner or any such reports since. The other continued to this day.
> 
> We deal with some of the other known traders and tuners on this forum and have supplied parts etc and never had any issues with others nor do we have any axe to grind against anyone else.


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## J13ME (Apr 24, 2015)

I agree, It does help... I was advised against using a certain tuner I was booked in with.. At the time I wasn't really sure what to do and just to be safe I cancelled, since then I have seen nothing but bad things, locked ECU's. smokey engines etc so a thread like this would have helped me.

Supertec has supplied a lot of my parts and will be supplying probably 90% of my engine build parts, he has done nothing but be honest and helpful (even talking to him early hours of the morning trying to sort problems with the car in a travel lodge car park LOL)

Trust is a hard thing to gain... and I would happily trust my money and car with them! 

This 'tuner wars' has gotten so silly I have decided I am going to rebuild my engine myself as I really can't trust any builders it seems! I know exactly what I'm putting in and how I'm building it so I can be confident it will be right!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

I give up. I've genuinely had enough. You guys show me such little little respect that even when I ask you do do me a favour and give me time to work some things out. You still proceed to dump your personal issues On this site. 

I can't win and I can tell you i am seriously contemplating walking away from this lynch mob mentality. 

I won't lock this. I won't give you the pleasure. Just be sure whatever you post will stand up in court because if you come asking for favours later on I won't be helping. 

IM so fed up with the attitude in here where the loudest voices get heard over everyone else.


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

With all due respect what is a forum or it's point without debate (good or bad) ?






Mookistar said:


> I give up. I've genuinely had enough. You guys show me such little little respect that even when I ask you do do me a favour and give me time to work some things out. You still proceed to dump your personal issues On this site.
> 
> I can't win and I can tell you i am seriously contemplating walking away from this lynch mob mentality.
> 
> ...


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## J13ME (Apr 24, 2015)

I really do feel for you mate, I have seen nothing but you get bombarded by other peoples fights/arguments! can't win!

I didn't realise all this stuff was to the point of legal action.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

But it's not like that. I have no issue with people posting thier experiences but only once all other avenues have been exhausted. Using the site as a weapon against a tuner or everyone piling into a thread and have thier opinions dangerous if Unpoliced. 

People are welcome to post thier views but is has to be done in a concise and articulate manner. The tuner given a right to reply and generally everyone behaves like adults. 

As it stands it's like watching a bunch of 6 years in primary school.


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

Agree 100% Mook

The only issue is generally (and not exclusive to this or indeed other car forums) is that they don't choose to reply.

The reason being (in my opinion) is because no matter how many people complain or sling mud on an internet forum, there will always be plenty of other newbie's hitting your website, reading about how great you and the business are and that you're an authorised installer of this and that etc and will be more than willing to give them a try, and their business is as safe as houses.

Look at the numbers, how many skylines and gtr's are there in the country, and how many tuners are there, they have a monopoly and don't give a shit who complains and about what. You need your car fixed... ? you rub along or stick with a broken car, it's harsh reality but a reality all the same and one that IMO exists for pretty much every ''niche'' or performance vehicle.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

I've heard horror stories about every single tuner including those no longer in business. They do make mistakes and there are legal procedures and good common courtesy open to those users who are wronged. 

But too often, long before any real mediation has been sought, a mud slinging thread goes up and everyone has an opinion. It's like politics and religion, there can never be a real conclusion. 

As it stands there are stories about every tuner and there is no way of knowing what is Tru and what isnt and whilst we do not whitewash things, we do try to avoid witchunts and full blown hunting season.


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

The tuners slagging does occur. Ask for advice on how to sort out a issue and they won't be helping till you pay them to carry out the work +vat. Show them your car and prepare for a long list of 'faults'. If they are not making a 'cut' or business from a new product then yeah slagging again until you go as per their recommendations. 

Open cheque book? You'll be welcomed with open arms wherever you go, but if you're conservative, get lost elsewhere.

I haven't named anyone  

Outtcha here


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## RossC (Oct 20, 2014)

Clarkep said:


> Agree 100% Mook
> 
> The only issue is generally (and not exclusive to this or indeed other car forums) is that they don't choose to reply.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of other people in the country that can "fix" or tune a skyline other than the big name tuners. The UK is the home of motorsport after all. At the end of the day most cars are the same and have to be worked on with time, care and attention to detail. customers vote with their wallets. Maybe every registered trader should have a ratings section for constructive feedback?


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

In fairness to the tuners, the Skyline mob get a far worse wrap than the GTR mob.

Naturally down the fact that the Skyline boys are dealing with a 25 year product and the GTR boys a much newer one. 

As for legal and this and that and mediation though.... please, if somebody directly slanders you and your business then fair enough. 

Outside of that, Client care and good will is at the discretion of the tuners themselves, and with a 25 year product as the subject, how many of these issues and the cause that occur could ever be proven conclusively.... very few I suspect as numerous threads go to show.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

No I've heard horror stories about the GTR tuners as well. Simple fact is things do go wrong and men with spanners aren't the best at customer service. If they were they wouldn't be mechanics.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

I will be, as I posted the other day, be posting a full set of 'rules' for the future to give absolutely clarity to these sort of things. 

Fact is someone is spreading rumours about me which I turn damages the forum and I will do what I can to prove them wrong.


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

Mookistar said:


> No I've heard horror stories about the GTR tuners as well. Simple fact is things do go wrong and men with spanners aren't the best at customer service. If they were they wouldn't be mechanics.


Like saying men with hammers and screwdrivers are cut from the same cloth at customer service, sounds like you're making excuses for some reason.

Honestly, you talk about legal matters and sets of rules and let your fingers type such rubbish.... really?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

In not making excuses. I'm just saying a one man band is more likely to be crap at customer care than a bigger firm. I'm not justifying or making excuses for anyone. The best tradesmen can be a nightmare to pin down.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Clarkep said:


> The reason being (in my opinion) is because no matter how many people complain or sling mud on an internet forum, there will always be plenty of other newbie's hitting your website, reading about how great you and the business are and that you're an authorised installer of this and that etc and will be more than willing to give them a try, and their business is as safe as houses.


Anyone remember the Perfect Touch debacle??? 

One prolific poster of yesteryear used to wax lyrical about how AMAZING they were and would go to crazy lengths to promote said tuner...

Wind forward a bit after they had a falling out and the polarity of the posts had changed completely.

Was sad to the point of being comical.....oh the irony!!




> Fact is someone is spreading rumours about me


That doesn't sound too good Mike!! Rumours of what flavour??? (no smart arsed comments about chocolate/strawberry etc!!)



TT


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

When all is said and done Mook, don't let it do your head in it's just a forum about old Datsuns.

As said I've been involved (financially) with another forum for over 12 years and it's beyond crazy at times, but as you rightly say there's legal avenues in place for those who step seriously out of line, the rest is just hot air and keyboard warriors.

Lest we forget though, that tuners have a great portal to their customers in the shape of forums and a captivated audience, how they choose to use it (or not) is up to them.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Rumours that I am corrupt. That I recieve 'generous discounts' to protect the reputations of traders. 

Take a look at my build thread whoever the **** you are and tell me how many 'new' or used items I've ever bought from traders then have the decency to apologise.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Is it only me that wonders why the OP has fallen out with and had legal dealings with just about every single one of the well known Skyline tuners? Maybe we ought to be debating that instead.

Honestly Matt, you *are* a trouble maker and you seem to revel in it, hence starting this thread. For an intelligent guy you do seem to get very blinkered about certain things.

Life really is too short for all of this.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Always the same few people! Since 2002, lol. Tuner names are the only change.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

We've had this out many times before on the subjects of 'consumer feedback', blatant fanboi'ism and the 'usual suspects with torches and pitchforks'...:chuckle:

Point 1- Consumer Feedback.
As a potential customer of those traders on here and those who are not, I personally find it helpful to read honest, passion-free reviews of service received and general experiences. Helps me to make informed decisions about who to deal with and who not to deal with. Trouble is, I think these types of review are few and far between because there is ALWAYS influence from points 2 & 3 below....

*Point 2 - Blatant Fanboi'ism*
There are those for whom a specific vendor/trader/tuner is GOD, and I'm talking the full monty, Charlton Heston type GOD who WILL NOT be slighted!! These people have one goal in life and one goal only...That is, to promote their chosen God as much as possible and to kill dissent swiftly and with vigour :chuckle:. We all know who they are...
They are NOT a reliable source of unbiased thinking and review so their words are really worth diddly-squat!! My theory is, and it's more prevalent than you may think outside the car world, that once an individual has passed the "commitment threshold" i.e. Sunk a shedload of cash into this tuner/vendor/whathaveyou, they then become, in a sense, radicalised and very territorial towards their 'pal'. They are your 'Petrolhead fundamentalists' if you will .....:chuckle::chuckle:. Aviod.

*Point 3 - Usual suspects with torches and pitchforks*
Typically Petrolhead fundamentalists loyal to one vendor/tuner who feel compelled to wage a campaign of hate, slander and petrolheadist Jihad against any other tuner/vendor. They are the ones who wait for someone to say nice things about a rival vendor/tuner before swiftly sniping them with carefully practiced words of so-called 'truths' about said vendor/tuner (in reality, untruths) in order to dissuade them from using again and to put noobs off in favour of their own 'pal'.



Unfortunately there are few who are genuinely neither blatant fanboi's or pitchfork wielders (that's wielders NOT welders :chuckle. I see myself in this group as I have no allegiance/loyalty to any particular tuner/vendor. That said, I have been known to praise good service/work as I feel this IS important. However, not to the point of becoming overflowingly gushy and impartial. I know there ARE others out there like me but I think we are few and far between!!


Unfortunately it is VERY difficult to de-radicalise the fanboi's out there....As I said in a post above, it DID happen with a particular Lemon owner and their messiah at the time. Messy though!! I think that folks should be allowed to air their experiences, both good and bad. Good feedback is arguably more useful than bad as it paints a picture of what happens when things go right and is (generally) unbiased. Negative feedback generally becomes a turfwar between the blatant fanboi's and pitchfork wielders and tends to be passion filled, highly partisan and not really helpful in the slightest.
However, when a person has a *legitimate* grievance that is/has gone down a legal road then I think these posts should be stickied in a separate feedback forum by mods. Once a legal case has been brought and adjudicated, IF the vendor/tuner is found to be in the wrong, I think it's only fair that we all hear about it as it could play a MAJOR part in our decision making when looking to spend some money.




TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Mookistar said:


> Rumours that I am corrupt. That I recieve 'generous discounts' to protect the reputations of traders.
> 
> Take a look at my build thread whoever the **** you are and tell me how many 'new' or used items I've ever bought from traders then have the decency to apologise.


I heard that you have a second (and third) Skyline that all the discounted parts go on.....:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:


Care to pass any discounts on to us minions, Oh Great One!! :chuckle:


I also heard that your surname was 'Blatter'......



PMSL..




tonigmr2 said:


> Always the same few people! Since 2002, lol. Tuner names are the only change.


Internet forums......"kicking folks in the nuts from afar since 1983!!"





TT


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Mook may need you to get me a few parts as that discount you get is worth having!!


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Boy O Boy I've not been on here for a while and wow the same shit different day eh !!!


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Is it only me that wonders why the OP has fallen out with and had legal dealings with just about every single one of the well known Skyline tuners? Maybe we ought to be debating that instead.


Allow me to correct you Tazz, after all, isn't that what this is about?
I have had personal legal dealing with just 1 company and both I, and they, wish things had been done very differently from the start. Ask anyone who has come to me for advice what I've told them and you'd really see what stance I take. I ALWAYS advise that first and foremost, attempts are made to resolve things amicably, it is after all the best solution for everyone. 

You can have any debate you feel necessary or just wish to entertain about me: feel free and have an open day, I don't see why you can't; I'm a big boy and can stand up for myself, I don't see it as bullying as I have put myself into this situation and expected retorts like yours. 



TAZZMAXX said:


> Honestly Matt, you *are* a trouble maker and you seem to revel in it, hence starting this thread. For an intelligent guy you do seem to get very blinkered about certain things.


You do miss the point entirely, there's a specific message in the opening post. 
If you're going to continually spread ill informed and even vicious rumour about me, my deceased friend or my even my friends then you have to expect me to defend my position. But don't worry, we've had this conversation on the phone and I was told that it will never stop and we made an agreement that I wouldn't comment further as long as he kept his side of the deal. He didn't, and I'm obviously feeling the same way Mike does but I know who the individual behind it is. 

I have clearly absolved the forum owners and administration of any legal recourse as this is me saying this, not you or Mook or anyone else. I'm happy to take whatever is coming from their legal team as I already know I have evidence to substantiate any claim I make. Although TBH, I don't expect any will ever come as I know my position and theirs. 

I'll await their response of course, they have every right to counter my claim(s).
No doubt with claims of me ruining their business when I've said all along, it's you yourself that is ruining your own business. Concentrate on doing things right rather than slagging everyone else off to make yourself somehow look better.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Clarkep said:


> Incidentally I PM'd Matt for the contact details of his preferred tuner, which he kindly provided, so as I could try them for my issues and in the end they never came back to me to book my car in.


As a fanboi, as clearly some feel that's my position, then I should jump to defend my garage of choice. Sorry to disappoint some folk but they're a business just like any other, I'm not blinkered into thinking that even they don't make mistakes, the difference is what they do when they do make mistakes and that is the main reason why they got my business. 

In real life, away from old rusty datsuns, I've bought many cars and had many tuned by reputable companies without any issues whatsoever.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> I give up. I've genuinely had enough. You guys show me such little little respect that even when I ask you do do me a favour and give me time to work some things out. You still proceed to dump your personal issues On this site.
> 
> I can't win and I can tell you i am seriously contemplating walking away from this lynch mob mentality.
> 
> ...


I won't be asking for any favours Mike, I stand behind what I said regarding taking full legal responsibility away from the forum, it's owners and it's admins.
That shows huge respect IMHO but you're entitled to your opinion and I respect that. 

The only person who will ask for the thread to be closed is the one who wants it hidden and that's certainly not me. I've received second hand threats that things will happen to either me or my property and that I can't go to any event without taking protection with me. I've just laughed it off, it's a car and I have others so at the end of the day, I don't loose sleep over it. 

You yourself claim to be fed up of the situation but I don't see how my action is any different to your own, with the exception being, I certainly know who's behind it all in this case. 

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/4347082-post16.html


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

perhaps you chose to ignore the personal and potentially homophobic attack in AlexH posts? I Pm'd him and explained if he'd posted rationally, it would have stayed up.

I will be posting a new system to mange this later this week, something that will give voice to those capable of behaving like adults and shut down the bandwagons once and for all. 

Assuming I don't blow my brains out before then


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## jonnypolish (Sep 25, 2012)

I have actually begun to despise this forum, I am starting to wish I didn't own a GTR.. 

Shame the best source of information is surrounded by complete BS.


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## Theskycankill (Apr 27, 2015)

jonnypolish said:


> I have actually begun to despise this forum, I am starting to wish I didn't own a GTR..


Why ?....sell it then :chuckle:


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

jonnypolish said:


> I have actually begun to despise this forum, I am starting to wish I didn't own a GTR..
> 
> Shame the best source of information is surrounded by complete BS.


I concur entirely. I've spend so many years trying to breed an atmosphere of respect and good manners. There is no swearing, no porn. I've cut out politics and religion but when when it comes to tuners it's either them knocking 10 bells out of each other and dragging me into "he said she said" or it's mud slinging threads from dissatisfied customers which are completely unverifiable and unmanageable.

It strikes me that people are too keen to spread shit before properly exercising other options. I can't imagine anyone on this site has ever stood outside a retail store with placards complaining about poor service yet somehow on here it is acceptable. and the trouble is, without knowing both sides, no matter what the truth is, damage is done.

So, there will be a new system and hopefully that will be the end of it.

There's a lot of good on this site but this particular avenue is one I am tired of walking and i KNOW there is a silent majority who wish the vocal minority would just STFU.

Mike


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## Bajie (Dec 13, 2001)

jonnypolish said:


> I have actually begun to despise this forum, I am starting to wish I didn't own a GTR..
> 
> Shame the best source of information is surrounded by complete BS.


What, you find the majority of the forum posters hateful. Or just these kind of threads?

Its a community, and you don't always get on with or agree with all members of your community.

This foolishness has happened before, is happening now and sure as eggs is eggs will happen again.

Keep up the good work Mook.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> perhaps you chose to ignore the personal and potentially homophobic attack in AlexH posts? I Pm'd him and explained if he'd posted rationally, it would have stayed up.


I don't agree with anyone making personal attacks Mike and another man's sexual preference doesn't bother me at all - unless they're trying it with me obviously; as I'm just not into that. I do find it somewhat ironic perhaps given that personal attacks appears to be the weapon of choice behind the scenes. 

Anyway, whilst I'm fully aware of Alex's issues with MGT, I have NEVER been involved in the dispute between Mark and Alex in ANY capacity yet I know both sides used my name in trying to lever their position, something I'm not happy about as I was totally unaware until I heard it for myself. 

Try not to blow your brains out, at least have some wine and be merry with the family at Xmas. I'll do the same when I eventually get out of this ice prison cell.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

jonnypolish said:


> I have actually begun to despise this forum, I am starting to wish I didn't own a GTR..
> 
> Shame the best source of information is surrounded by complete BS.


Are you for real?? It's a forum which, by definition, is a platform for folks to air their views both good and bad. There will ALWAYS be controversial things from time to time.

Your post makes you sound like some really mousey-type character who's afraid to switch on their PC in case they read something that isn't full of daisy's, singing birds and general hippy-style well being.....






TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

matt j said:


> As a fanboi, as clearly some feel that's my position


Just so there is no misunderstanding, my post was a general observation about car forums and not intended or implied to point the finger at anyone specific!!





TT


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Not aimed at you buddy


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## BigBen (Aug 18, 2012)

I heard Mook was "white" Stig.


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Mook, I don't get the reasoning behind why you get so frustrated with the 'tuner bashing' its not an issue for one thing, I personally think you should even be entertaining to put your foot in to. You should, as I think anyway, be focused on making the forum a place where people are able to voice their opinions on the culture we all enjoy. Good or bad.

As far as people talking shit about tuners; The relevant parties should choose to defend their positions, or just ignore it. I don't see how you should feel any type of responsibility to make sure ANYONE is happy, just keep the thread free of actual personal BS (personal attacks and that sort of crap) 

Happy customers and pissed ones should both be allowed to say what they wish, its not your job to police them. The relevant tuner should make that call.

This is why I had said way back when, there should be a review section, with relevant moderator privileges being awarded to tuners/businesses that allow them to address issues, but not outrightly delete them, they can ignore them if they feel its beneath them to get into it, but shouldn't be allowed to 'make it go away'

just my 2¢ here, I think if anything, it will keep all this stupid highschool drama in one place, and realistically, a business should not allow a crap situation to end up here, if they are addressing it properly. 

tldr; Run the forum as a forum, let people have their say, keep out of businesses business, no one pays you for shit, why take the stress for anyone other than the forum as a community voice.


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## jonnypolish (Sep 25, 2012)

My post was not a personal attack on anyone! I have made a few friends here and most of the people are great!

it just seems that every week there is another Drama with someone mud slinging, claiming non-refundable deposits (LOL my bad had to go there)... the list goes on unfortunately and to be honest there has been a large decline in my posting or even viewing of this forum because of it! Shame on me bla bla, but who do you trust with your car when EVERYONE and trader is under fire? 

Mook and the admins do a great job of mediating in my opinion letting it roll and cutting it off when appropriate, but still why is there drama every week?! I am active on other forums for other cars, racing etc and there isn't this animosity between people and the divides you see here. 

THIS is why I am seeing it as a GTR thing, I love my 32 dearly, but I will be letting it go next year in answer to some posts about selling up 

Signed: A mousey Jon haha


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## KING (Jul 10, 2002)

Not sure if this can be answered but here goes, have any of the moderators been sued or taken to court by any of the forum sponsors ( names don't have to be disclosed)? I'm not very clued up on the legal stuff but was wondering as why Mods are worried about the 'mud slinging'. Big up to all the Mods for keeping order


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Rain said:


> As far as people talking shit about tuners; The relevant parties should choose to defend their positions, or just ignore it. I don't see how you should feel any type of responsibility to make sure ANYONE is happy, just keep the thread free of actual personal BS (personal attacks and that sort of crap)
> 
> Happy customers and pissed ones should both be allowed to say what they wish, its not your job to police them. The relevant tuner should make that call.
> 
> ...


My issue is this. once the claims or accusations are made they can cause damage whether of not they are true. Any user could potentially make libellous and defaming comments which, even if proven false in court, will have been seen and aired in public. Like the recent Operation Yewtree thing. Even though some of the people have been cleared, we all secretly think "he's a paedo"

Same on here. For every unhappy customer there could be 100's of happy ones, but because that unhappy guy kicks off, the damage is ten fold that of a positive endorsement.

So, it will need policing. I think it will take the form of a locked forum in which only Tuners and Op's can reply to threads. that'll keep the oars out and ensure people fight their battles themselves.

It'll also come with a legal position and format suggestion.

There has to be involvement from me and my team because it's not fair to let the mob rule.

Mook


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

KING said:


> Not sure if this can be answered but here goes, have any of the moderators been sued or taken to court by any of the forum sponsors ( names don't have to be disclosed)? I'm not very clued up on the legal stuff but was wondering as why Mods are worried about the 'mud slinging'. Big up to all the Mods for keeping order


no, but would you want to take the risk for something which is supposed to be a hobby? I'm not losing my house over a forum which is something that HAS happened to moderators stateside. Our law is slightly different but it's still ambiguous.

Mike


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## Johnny G (Aug 10, 2012)

Would you consider a Dispute section which is closed off and members only? Any threads of this ilk are immediately moved in there to avoid search-engine bots.


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## SamboGrove (Jun 27, 2010)

Mookistar said:


> My issue is this. once the claims or accusations are made they can cause damage whether of not they are true. Any user could potentially make libellous and defaming comments which, even if proven false in court, will have been seen and aired in public. Like the recent Operation Yewtree thing. Even though some of the people have been cleared, we all secretly think "he's a paedo"
> 
> Same on here. For every unhappy customer there could be 100's of happy ones, but because that unhappy guy kicks off, the damage is ten fold that of a positive endorsement.
> 
> ...


All sounds sensible :thumbsup:


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Johnny G said:


> Would you consider a Dispute section which is closed off and members only? Any threads of this ilk are immediately moved in there to avoid search-engine bots.


We had considered this previously but would find people would start a new thread when the old one disappeared into the member area and I'd spend my day fighting fires (and idiots). 

I dont think having them visible is an issue so long as the tuner has a right to reply over all other users. It'll also make people think hard before posting as they'll be 'in the ring' on their own.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

I like forums and banter - and this is the best of the rest - opcorn: :bowdown1::chuckle:


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Mookistar said:


> My issue is this. once the claims or accusations are made they can cause damage whether of not they are true. Any user could potentially make libellous and defaming comments which, even if proven false in court, will have been seen and aired in public. Like the recent Operation Yewtree thing. Even though some of the people have been cleared, we all secretly think "he's a paedo"
> 
> Same on here. For every unhappy customer there could be 100's of happy ones, but because that unhappy guy kicks off, the damage is ten fold that of a positive endorsement.
> 
> ...


Few thoughts


1) Mook, have you taken actual legal instruction on this?

From what I gather, it would be a huge thing, as a matter of establishing rights, for any admin or mod to be held accountable for another user's comments.

There is, as far as i know, nothing that can actually come back to the forum owners or mod team, because you have not actually had any kinda of direct role in whatever 'defamation' has taken place.

We are not employed by the forums, as users, this is a public space. I don't believe there would be a case. Im sure there are plenty of lawyers on here, probably more in the GTR section  that could be asked.

(edit) If someone has crap to say about a company, its that companies place to either address it with their customer, or sue them directly for defamation, its not hard to do these days...

2) What i'm getting at, is that if all people ever see is the rosey stuff, it will be a disingenuous representation of the company as well. It just takes a few people to say how awesome a place is, and it gets to stay here when people come looking for an honest picture. That's all. I don't believe having some way to give feedback on the companies we shell out thousands of pounds a month to is a bad thing, don't we as customers have just as much of a voice to let other people know if we were happy or not with what work we had done where?

You are right, there does need to be SOME mediation, but its not 'mob rule' im trying to pitch here. Im trying to say, everyone needs to have a fair voice. You have to do your part, but thats not protecting ANYONE, users OR businesses. its protecting the integrity of this space.

_"I think it will take the form of a locked forum in which only Tuners and Op's can reply to threads. that'll keep the oars out and ensure people fight their battles themselves."
_
Thats is probably the best idea, as long as everyone is allowed to see it, if nothing else comes from this, at least knowing you guys are thinking of an idea to limit the constant BS you and us too, have to deal with is circulating...other than suicide :runaway: :chuckle:


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## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Also to turn the perspective a little:

IF there is a common thread, that one or two 'customers' are constantly being agressive towards businesses in the community, be it by never being happy no matter what, or just down right knobs.

It would allow the names of these people to be seen, and allows other businesses a bit of a heads up..."Deal with this tool, at your owns risk"...this can go both ways. Especially if companies have made honest efforts to fix an issue, and are still being portrayed as 'unfair' we have see it happen before, someone tries to drag a name through the mud, only to be on the receiving end, when a true representation of events are put on the table.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Sing along with me:chuckle:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQDOUbErNg


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

jonnypolish said:


> I am active on other forums for other cars, racing etc and there isn't this animosity between people and the divides you see here.


Really!!! The other car forums I go on, admittedly infrequently, are 10 times worse than this for in-fighting. Unless you are a regular, you wont pick up on the forum dynamics and the usual suspects who always take digs at each other...




TT


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

TREG said:


> Sing along with me:chuckle:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aQDOUbErNg


You plonker..:chuckle:


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

R32 Combat said:


> You plonker..:chuckle:





No that's this one Del 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcuPHVz6aM


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

TREG said:


> No that's this one Del
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahcuPHVz6aM


Ok Dave..:flame:


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

So what's Dave? A nickname, like?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

TAZZMAXX said:


> So what's Dave? A nickname, like?


Miles per Dave Gorman?


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

We better have that one here as well Rodney

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylgV8OyTIFg


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## WUZ (May 26, 2002)

Mookistar said:


> Rumours that I am corrupt. That I recieve 'generous discounts' to protect the reputations of traders.


I for one can say hand-on-heart that the above statement is NOT TRUE.

Mike has been impartial and yet extremely helpful throughout my entire TE37 Wheel debacle with a certain Trader on here and I firmly believe that the result I (will eventually) receive will be predominantly down to him and the way he approached the Trader.

Keep doing what you are going Mike, a lot of us have faith in your impartiality.

Russell


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## Supertec (Jun 5, 2014)

I don't think in this instance you can say an individual is being agressive towards a business. You need to understand the history and realise what has caused all this.

I will also say this about Mike, he has always been very helpful, supportive and fair to Supertec and myself.

Younes


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

If anyone thinks any moderator or admin get any favours whatsoever from any trader they're on drugs. It doesn't happen, neither asked for nor given.

I do get bored with the same people slagging off the same traders though. So you don't like them, we get it. Now shut up.opcorn:


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

tonigmr2 said:


> If anyone thinks any moderator or admin get any favours whatsoever from any trader they're on drugs. It doesn't happen, neither asked for nor given.
> 
> I do get bored with the same people slagging off the same traders though. So you don't like them, we get it. Now shut up.opcorn:


 Outrageous censorship and impingement of civil liberties!!


:chuckle:



TT


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> I do get bored with the same people slagging off the same traders though. So you don't like them, we get it. Now shut up.opcorn:


Here's hoping you never find yourself in some of the positions other forum users do with these 'same' traders.


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## CSB (Nov 15, 2007)

tonigmr2 said:


> If anyone thinks any moderator or admin get any favours whatsoever from any trader they're on drugs. It doesn't happen, neither asked for nor given.
> 
> I do get bored with the same people slagging off the same traders though. So you don't like them, we get it. Now shut up.opcorn:


So that's like saying anyone in a position of power doesn't get offered backhanders (politicians) for example.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CSB said:


> So that's like saying anyone in a position of power doesn't get offered backhanders (politicians) for example.


Mods and admin are not in a position of power, that's the difference.
It's a thankless task taken for granted by most.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Merry Christmas you miserable c***s.

:chuckle:


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

I'd be completely corrupt, my nick name would be backhander Judge
Just bring one decent looking bird to a meeting, let me get off with her and then you can go fracking in my country


Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

matt j said:


> Here's hoping you never find yourself in some of the positions other forum users do with these 'same' traders.


I've had pretty shocking service from several traders, one or two well known. I just don't feel the need to go on about it, I merely don't recommend them. I realise you see that everybody's experience is different, they might be fine on another day with a different customer. I just don't think it needs saying again, and again, and again.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> I just don't feel the need to go on about it, I merely don't recommend them. I realise you see that everybody's experience is different, they might be fine on another day with a different customer. I just don't think it needs saying again, and again, and again.


Why do you feel the need to post pictures of your car through its restoration?
Why go on and on and on about it, sure there's several other cars out there and they've been through the same restoration but do you really need to go on and on about it?
Don't know, seems you're a bit too passionate about it on a car forum full of car enthusiasts, perhaps this isn't the right forum for you. 

Maybe what you need is a good dose of malicious rumours starting, maybe that'll stop you going on and on about your car as you idley sit back not recommending them.


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## Clarkep (Mar 13, 2015)

Just to bring a bit of light to this otherwise dark thread.

Mark from Abbey took it upon himself to contact me personally regarding my comments earlier in the thread. We are sorting things out in the new year and he made his apologies for what occurred, which I thought was very civil and always goes a long way in life. So a thumbs up in this instance for a tuner addressing these types of issues.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

Clarkep said:


> *Mark from Abbey took it upon himself to contact me personally regarding my comments earlier in the thread. We are sorting things out in the new year and he made his apologies for what occurred, which I thought was very civil and always goes a long way in life. So a thumbs up in this instance for a tuner addressing these types of issues.*


And this is why I like this forum!

A member has a problem, topical forum conversation highlighted this fact and the possible fixer of said problem has made contact with the member in the hopes of sorting out this issue. 

I'm really pleased for you Clarkep and got my fingers crossed that your cars problems will be sorted soon!


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Clarkep said:


> Just to bring a bit of light to this otherwise dark thread.
> 
> Mark from Abbey took it upon himself to contact me personally regarding my comments earlier in the thread. We are sorting things out in the new year and he made his apologies for what occurred, which I thought was very civil and always goes a long way in life. So a thumbs up in this instance for a tuner addressing these types of issues.


Positive news...

I had the exact same thing happen to me TWICE by a garage back up in Scotland when I had my old S12.....First time I dropped car off and walked to work (25 min walk). Upon return car was still in same parking space. Turned out it hadn't been touched. Chap apologised (without any real feeling behind it!) and I booked it in for the work to be done. Same thing happened. I went a bit mental (not in the shouty, abusive sense...my style is more the calm, cutting prose method in which I highlighted that my good friend was the editor of the local rag and I'd be making sure this debacle featured heavily. Guy seemed nonplussed. 
He was more attentive when I wrote a lengthy article on garage customer service and named and shamed the garage in question. A day after publication, he calls me up begging me to book my car back in and have the work done FOC.......he was told to ram it!!


Going back to YOUR situation, it's a shame it had to happen. Personally, I've been to Abbey a few times and received great service from Mark and the guys. However, there are times when, as you say, folks get the rough end. Glad to hear Mark has made contact and is looking to remedy the situation. Sounds very positive..


TT


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## Supertec (Jun 5, 2014)

Clarkep said:


> Just to bring a bit of light to this otherwise dark thread.
> 
> Mark from Abbey took it upon himself to contact me personally regarding my comments earlier in the thread. We are sorting things out in the new year and he made his apologies for what occurred, which I thought was very civil and always goes a long way in life. So a thumbs up in this instance for a tuner addressing these types of issues.


Maybe the tuner who has been openly slagging us off at every opportunity to customers and potential customers can call us and apologise.

I will say this, do the right thing pick up the phone and apologise for what you have been saying to many customers and we can forget about this and move on.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

matt j said:


> Why do you feel the need to post pictures of your car through its restoration?
> Why go on and on and on about it, sure there's several other cars out there and they've been through the same restoration but do you really need to go on and on about it?
> Don't know, seems you're a bit too passionate about it on a car forum full of car enthusiasts, perhaps this isn't the right forum for you.
> 
> Maybe what you need is a good dose of malicious rumours starting, maybe that'll stop you going on and on about your car as you idley sit back not recommending them.


The difference being I don't give a flying **** about rumours. Boo hoo, sticks and stones and all that. People need to grow up! And if the board said we're all bored with restorations, guess what, I would stop posting about it. I am wondering why people have to be so childish.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

So you don't give a **** what people say or think but you'd stop posting. Therefore actually giving a ****, right?

I don't have a degree in woman logic unfortunately!


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## RobbieBambino (Nov 8, 2015)

matt j said:


> So you don't give a **** what people say or think but you'd stop posting. Therefore actually giving a ****, right?
> 
> I don't have a degree in woman logic unfortunately!


He said he dont give a **** about rumours, what hes saying is that if ppl are bored of his restoration he will simply stop posting instead of b!tching about ppl not being bothered


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

RobbieBambino said:


> He said he dont give a **** about rumours, what hes saying is that if ppl are bored of his restoration he will simply stop posting instead of b!tching about ppl not being bothered


She!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

in fairness, a lot of the rumours and mud slinging are taking place away from the forum, most likely on Facebook, and the fact that is unpoliced shows that the attitude I have taken up until now, whilst not always popular, is better than a free for all.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/clubr33skylinegtr/ - is generally free of mud slinging as far as I've seen. I don't follow other groups though, they're too small on FB.


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## RobbieBambino (Nov 8, 2015)

TAZZMAXX said:


> She!


I dont know said person personally so i assumed!


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## imy1428 (Dec 20, 2015)

chill out lads its xmas


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Mookistar said:


> I won't lock this. I won't give you the pleasure. Just be sure whatever you post will stand up in court because if you come asking for favours later on I won't be helping.


I took about as much pleasure in posting this thread as I did having to listen to my friend be accused posthumously of blackmail, malicious lies regarding my garage of choice and my friends being told blatant lies because the person involved doesn't know the relationships he's dealing with. 

I've taken a stand as I too was fed up and have posted minimal factual details which I can back up, do you know how many legal threats I've had?
You don't have to answer that, it's NONE. 



Mookistar said:


> I'm so fed up with the attitude in here where the loudest voices get heard over everyone else.


It's not the loudest voice, it's the one speaking the truth or else this thread would have been pulled straight down following the onset of legal action. 

Even you yourself had an outburst regarding malicious rumours being spread about you. This scene is full of irony; I apologise in advance but I had a little laugh this week at the former chairman of the GTROC being banned from the GTROC forum for 'in his words' asking the GTROC the very same questions I asked of him. It's a fickle world the old GTR scene. 

Anyway, it's Xmas eve. I've made my point and have no interest in dragging it on so I'll wish everyone a very Merry Xmas, even Mark. Who knows, maybe the new year will see a new man concentrating on his own business rather than everyone else's, fingers crossed here as there's no vendetta, just defence.


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## stevros (Jun 13, 2012)

This is why i barely bother with this forum. So much 'we're the best' crap and sh1t from members and traders. I remember when it was just opinions and discussions about the vehicles none of this legal disputes getting aired on public forums!!
Moderators are never going to please everyone and no one involved in a dispute will ever see anyone as being 'in the middle' and not taking a side with the decisions they take.
This is my first post on here for a while and will be my last visit for a while too


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

stevros said:


> This is why i barely bother with this forum. So much 'we're the best' crap and sh1t from members and traders. I remember when it was just opinions and discussions about the vehicles none of this legal disputes getting aired on public forums!!
> Moderators are never going to please everyone and no one involved in a dispute will ever see anyone as being 'in the middle' and not taking a side with the decisions they take.
> This is my first post on here for a while and will be my last visit for a while too


Probably best stay away from FaceBook etc too; once it just used to be a place to look up old mates and share a laugh, now it's full of beheadings, police shootings and fake lives with hidden areas to slag each other off.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

matt j said:


> but I had a little laugh this week at the former chairman of the GTROC being banned from the GTROC forum for 'in his words' asking the GTROC the very same questions I asked of him. It's a fickle world the old GTR scene.


I think there's a bit more to it than meets the eye but if you've followed the ensuing Facebook account of things it makes for depressing reading and it's sad that people fall out so easily when sat behind a keyboard rather than rationalising the situation. 

Anyway Happy Christmas to you as well.


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## dave_gtr (Jun 21, 2009)

Sweet baby jesus. Iv been away for afew years and it's like ground hog day. If I was working on one of mattj's car s I'd be too scared to touch it through fear of what might happen if something went wrong. Now you do probably have the best r33 I've seen just don't burn your bridges.....I'm also a massive fan boy of mgt. Don't care what's gone on. Really looking forward to getting another skyline next year. Merry Christmas haters gonna hate and all that. Put your hands up if you're a belieber....iam


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

dave_gtr said:


> If I was working on one of mattj's car s I'd be too scared to touch it through fear of what might happen if something went wrong.


I'm still laughing at this :chuckle:



dave_gtr said:


> Merry Christmas haters gonna hate and all that. Put your hands up if you're a belieber....iam


Merry Christmas too, I'm definitely a hater though, I mean come on; who the **** likes Justin Beiber


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## rally-tec (Feb 17, 2007)

I haven't been on the forum for a bit reading this giving me jokes lol lol chill lads merry xmas happy new year


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

The tracker thread is comedy one of the funniest I have seen in a while.


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## dave_gtr (Jun 21, 2009)

Switching to tracker thread


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## northstar34 (Jul 24, 2009)

Steve said:


> Boy O Boy I've not been on here for a while and wow the same shit different day eh !!!


Looks like th shits at your doorstep 'AGAIN', how about you grow a pair and do the right thing! .... that sounds awfully familiar don't you think Steve


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