# Forum Abuse.



## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Im sorry for committing one of the deadly sins.

Namely continuing another thread that has been closed.

But I dont feel that as an active member of this site I can just sit and watch these proceedings without making any comment.

I feel that this latest rash of petty minded posts, discussing private affairs between customers and tuners, traders and forum users and whatever else has gotten to the point of ridicule.

Above all else I feel that Peter has abused his position of responsibility once too often. Im sorry mate, I think you're a nice guy, but something happens to you when you get stressed about your perceived treatment by *insert any tuner here* and then go mental on a public forum. I dont know if this is your way of spiting them and getting revenge for your perceived injustice, or if you think that these public trials somehow embarress the tuners involved so much that your particular problem will just go away.

At the end of the day you are not just a member here, but the administrator of the site, and with that comes certain responsibilities. Not acting like a childish premadonna is one of em.

This forum is the best of its kind from where I sit, but all the cr4p thats floating around at the moment is starting to stick and making us look like a bunch of spoilt kids.

I realise that there are a host of other things that are nothing to do with Peters latest outburst that need adressing in the fullness of time and that the site is run in peoples spare time and these cannot all be dealt with immediately, but this is starting to **** me right off, and many others to boot.

I trust that this post wont do a Lord Lucan.

James.


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

A very old saying springs to mind.

NEVER DO YOUR DIRTY WASHING IN PUBLIC.

Glen


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Oh and one more things guys and gals.

Why is it that people with absolutely no connection whatsoever feel the need to jump on a thread they know absolutely nothing about, and then back peddle or say no more. People here seem too eager to jump in without a clue.

Glen


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

J.
Gotta agree with you, really.
It's looking pretty sad at the moment


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

I won't comment on the actual issue, since I'm not in any way connected with it.

However, as a general principal I feel very strongly that a Moderator of any site should not Moderate or Close a thread they are very personally involved in, especially one they started about themselves, since they cannot possibly be impartial about the subject.

Just my 2p.

Guy


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Yes very funny that the thread was closed just after Peter seen my post 

the post below must have hit home.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well I was not going to say anything but I now feel that I have too.

Rod sold you the OS Giken 4 plate clutch that was going into my car 
because you needed a clutch fast so that you could get your car back on the road
this put my engine build back by about 3 weeks and he sold it to you at a very fair price 
then you get the new OS Giken gearset at a very good price also. 
you said you had to wait weeks,no wonder Rod had to get it sent over from Japan 
because he had sold the one he had in stock.
He then builds your gearbox and it needed Nissan parts to make it 100% right
no point putting it together with parts that could fail at any moment is there.
Rod even gave you them at trade price he did not put any profit on them.

Rod then drops everything to build your gearbox in time for you to do a trackday
He then tells you the price and you have someone collect the gearbox from Rods on your behalf.
then about 10 minutes later after you know your gearbox is in safe hands 
you then proceed to call Rod and tell him that you are only going to pay him quoted price of £1880 

funny that you did not call him before you had the gearbox picked up is it.?????? 

the list price for the OS gearkit is about £1550
Rod then spends about 2 days on your box getting the parts and building it up 
for you to take the pi$$ out of him. He did not make his fortune on this job did he

Even when he sold you the clutch and you fitted it wrong
you then tried to blame him for your std bolts being too long ??????

Peter you really need to stop posting crap like this on this site 
because the last post about your engine failing was way out of order and now this.

If you have a problem with R.B Motorsport take it up with them direct not on here please
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the worst thing is that Peter knew fine that Rod does not post on this site 
FFS he does not even look on here.
R.B Motorsport has many loyal customers that will always come back to him
because of the good service they receive at all times.

The way I see it is you want everything for nothing peter
well I hope you don't damage the OS Giken gearkit or need new clutch plates 
because I would like to know where you will go to buy them from now.

Keith


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

*This used to be fun !*

I won't enter into a discussion about Peters action, as it is not of my concern.


However, the point you make below does rankle.....


bladerider said:


> This forum is the best of its kind from where I sit, but all the cr4p thats floating around at the moment is starting to stick and making us look like a bunch of spoilt kids.


Do you really feel that we (the moderators) are responsible for this ?


Once was the time where this site moderated itself (almost) and our interaction was minimal, it's very much the same nowadays, with one exception......

When ever we do take action it is immediately met with an aggresive response usually along the lines of "My big mate (or lawyer) is gonna have you" and a post which proclaims the inocence of the moderated party and a a dog pile thread with one of us playing rabbit.

This site has become so childish, it was even suggested that I should telephone users to OK the moderation of their posts so as not to upset them.

It's time the users of this site opened their eyes and took responsibility for the content of their posts rather than relying on the moderator team to play concience.



Looking back over the last week, I have been on the receiving end of one threat of legal action, two threats of violence, and been the subject of one derogative thread. That's not bad considering I do this for free.

It doesn't matter what'll it be next week, at least I know I can rely on the support of the core users.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

keith said:


> R.B Motorsport has many loyal customers that will always come back to him because of the good service they receive at all times.


 Keith,
I won't be back to RB as I did not recieve what I would have considered good service when I last dealt with his organisation. This is a totally seperate issue from Peter, and I will not enter into discussion about it on this forum, or with anyone other than RB.

I do however get professional, prompt service from all of our banner advertisers.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

R.B Motorsport better get a banner then. 


I think not


Keith.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Jason,

I have no problem with what YOU do.

I agree that the users of this site need to moderate themselves better - myself included.

I do feel that you guys do a thankless task alot of the time and therefore I cant really moan if I feel things could be done better, otherwise I would offer to be a mod myself and help share the burden !! Son=metimes I think these inflammatory threads and "windups" as well as the more obvious mud slinging like Peters thread should be dealt with quicker in order to stop the snowball effect. Its amazing how many new users turn up and post once or twice when these things are on the move, so to speak.

On the whole I think this place is good, as I said, I just dont like the level of pettiness thats managed to creep in the last few months.

Hope youre well mate.

J.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

Keith, You know me well and long enough to know that I speak plainly.



keith said:


> R.B Motorsport better get a banner then.
> I think not


That is not what I suggested, fact is if RB took out a banner advert this afternoon, I would not use them. Other things would need change with RB's organisation for me to return.

Don't put words in my mouth (or post).


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

JasonO said:


> Keith, You know me well and long enough to know that I speak plainly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jason,

just playing with you  

I just knew I could get you to post again   


Keith :smokin:


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## Monk2 (Jun 9, 2004)

*My Bit*

I'm quite new here and don't know much of the history of this discussion, but please remember everyone makes mistakes or has problems at some point. It takes years for a garage to build a good reputation ( I spent more time finding one I could trust than I did finding a dentist  ) But it only takes one incident to ruin it. Especially if that incident is posted. If you have a bad expierience give them a chance to fix things before warning others. Its how they deal with problems that sorts a good place from a bad one.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Monk2 said:


> I'm quite new here and don't know much of the history of this discussion,



Indeed.

Perhaps this could help........



Tokyo said:


> Why is it that people with absolutely no connection whatsoever feel the need to jump on a thread they know absolutely nothing about


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

JasonO said:


> Keith,
> I won't be back to RB as I did not recieve what I would have considered good service when I last dealt with his organisation. This is a totally seperate issue from Peter, and I will not enter into discussion about it on this forum, or with anyone other than RB.
> 
> I do however get professional, prompt service from all of our banner advertisers.


Whoa hold on Jason. A moderators role must be impartiality with regards to traders and tuners. Yes you may walk a somewhat thin line with regards who/what you purchase from as this could be deemed to be favourtism but to put someone down by saying you are not happy can be viewed as very misleading.

I totally agree with Guy on his points and as we were the original moderators here (along with DCD) I feel we do have an idea about what could be deemed as right and wrong. 

You appear to be endorsing the banner ad tuners/traders (which in itself is biased) yet Peter has openly put down AbbeyMotorsport in the past who are banner advertisers. There are other issues where I feel you guys have gone off the tracks a bit but I'm not on a witchunt. Sort it out guys  .

Glen


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Oh dear   

I have had good and bad service from all the people I buy stuff off. Not just car tuners and not all of it for my own personal use: work, Club etc as well. In each case the course of action taken has been appropriate to the nature of the issue and those involved.

I do believe people should be able to separate personal 'stuff' from non-personal 'stuff'. If the issue relates to one car and one tuner then they should have the ability and sense to resolve it between them (that applies to both sides). _Please note this is not directed at antone in this case - just a general point of view_. If the matter involves a wider circle of people then there is merit in making it public, if only to prevent the perpetuation of a bad situation.

Unfortunatley we all make errors of judgement and occasionally the red mist descends (or 'Gorilla moments' in my case). Hindsight is a wonderful thing and time is a great calmer. I'm sure today's news will be tomorrow's fish and chip wrapper.

We are all aware of some of what has been said and some of the counter arguments. We are not all aware however of all that has been said and very few people have the full facts. Whilst it is commendable to see people care sufficiently about the Forum to comment and try to draw a close to the matter it is also fair to say there is still much salt to be rubbed into the wound and no matter how much we try to help it does little to help progress.

Time to learn and move on?  
I hope so


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> Whoa hold on Jason. A moderators role must be impartiality with regards to traders and tuners. Yes you may walk a somewhat thin line with regards who/what you purchase from as this could be deemed to be favourtism but to put someone down by saying you are not happy can be viewed as very misleading.


Yes Glen,
You and Guy were the original Moderators here but as I recall it was very similar circumstances to that which exist at the moment that led to your 'hanging up the gloves'.

As for my impartiality, can you indicate which tuners / suppliers I am aligned to ?

You probably can't, however it's the end of an era, as there is a new _badge_ on the back of my car.

I rebuilt my own engine, perform my own maintenance, and I'm currently tuning my engine on my own, I have done all of this with parts and advice supplied from many of the tuners and traders on this forum, some of which have provided me with service beyond the norm, others have failed me.

So how impartial would you like me to be Glen, my comments about RB are perfectly straight and not misleading in anyway. Make no mistake, I am not advising others to take account of my actions I am only stating that I am dissatisfied with the service *I* received.

I have been miss-sold items twice, through the For Sale section of this forum, by the same person. My position as a moderator stops me from decrying their practice, even although they suggested I sell the recent item on to another forum user who is desperate for it. Yes, that is the sort of users we have around here, although I should have known better than to make the second purchase. Suffice to say, should someone report a similar fraudulent sale by the same user I will advise they take appropriate action.

Impartial, bloody right we are but sometimes we get ****ed over for being so politically correct. 
We have rights to you know


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

JasonO said:


> Yes Glen,
> You and Guy were the original Moderators here but as I recall it was very similar circumstances to that which exist at the moment that led to your 'hanging up the gloves'.
> 
> As for my impartiality, can you indicate which tuners / suppliers I am aligned to ?
> ...


Similarish circumstances but I was being backstabbed by certain people and for the good of this site (and my work commitments) I decided to jack it in. And when I did I was happy to put you forward  .

Never ever said you were aligned with anyone  .

No your comments re RB are unfair. And I'll tell you why. Your dealings are your affair, no one elses. Your not happy go see him. A lot of tuners/traders can take advice as well as anyone else as long as it is put across diplomatically and not aired for all to see. How do I know YOU never upset RB and for that reason you were perhaps mistreated the way you say you were. I don't want to know thanks to be honest as I am able to make my own judgements.

Sorry but I do think the moderation has got out of hand slightly as noted (but not said) by many others. 

Glen


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

One more thing (again  )

Why if you can give your opinion freely was the good/bad trader/tuner thread not allowed to stay. Please don't say its because it may have gone loopy as thats what I thought you guys were here to control. It's just that yourself and Peter have voiced opinions that I have not really heard from any other members/users.

Glen


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

OK, three things briefly, for now (no time now):

1. I will re-open the other thread now, I agree with Guy on that and apologise if closing it was misconstrued.

2. When Cem asked me firstly to be a moderator and latterly an administrator of this forum, one overriding principle was made clear between us and that was that by me taking this 'position', it should not restrict my posting 'rights' in anyway. Those of you who have been here for a while, know that I am passionate about the 'cause' but also that I speak my mind. It was not me that decided to name RBM in the other thread, it was one of their 'spokesmen' so the decision was theirs. It was also their decision to involve others in a private affair.

3. If people think that I have overstepped the mark, then stand up and PM me or Cem and we will judge whether I should stand down or not.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

This is bad crack guys


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

*Just my input*

I have been dissapointed by several establishments.
Some people havent even got the courtesy to answer my e-mails,some dont even aknowledge me when i walk in their premises,and some cant even be bothered to contact me,even when i have paid for things that havent turned up for weeks on end.
I havent complained so far,but i sure as hell wont ever recommend anyone like that,if thats the sort of treatment i recieve.
I have felt in the past that money rules,where tuners and suppliers are concerned.If you have none(or very little)then you may aswell walk in naked,cause they dont take any notice of you anyway.

I know of only a handfull of establishments that have provided me with a good service with pleasant attitude to boot,and hardly any of them are from here.

How **** poor is that.

JasonO,may take up your train of thought and do my own work.At least i can smile at myself and be pleasant.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> when I did I was happy to put you forward


I'm certain you don't regret this 


TOKYO said:


> ...Your not happy go see him.....


That's a two way street, however unless I present you with the facts which I am not going to do, you will never appreciate my position.



TOKYO said:


> I am able to make my own judgements.


I wish more people would do this, however to make a good judgement it helps if you are armed with as much information as possible.



TOKYO said:


> It's just that yourself and Peter have voiced opinions that I have not really heard from any other members/users.


This doesn't make our opinions any less valid.

For the most part RB get a very good name, but I feel it is unfair to make out that Peter's issue is personal, there are other users who have cause for complaint but won't post for fear of being publicly shot down by RB's supporters. Indeed look how long it took for Keith to come back at me here and the vigor of the defendants in the other thread, can you blame them.





TOKYO said:


> Sorry but I do think the moderation has got out of hand slightly as noted (but not said) by many others.


The important thing about all of this thread, is that we are discussing these issues. We may not agree with each other, but at least we're not resorting to threatening behaviour and false proclamations of innocence. There are things to be learned, and you know we're listening, so if somethings got your goat spit it out.

There are things happening on this board that users feel are wrong and they should be telling us, no point leaving it to the few brave hearts who have the balls to raise issues with us in threadds like this.

Speak your mind (in a civil manner) and we will remedy the situation where possible, if it's felt we owe an apology then it will be sincerely given. Apologies will also be gracefully received, although this doesn't happen very often


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Firstly Jason, how the hell do you get all those quotes in your post  .

You hit the nail on the head mate, issues are being discussed and hopefully resolved and thats the most important thing :smokin: . Thats what sometimes is missing here, a balance and a mutual respect.

Obviously your (moderators) freedom of speech is important but perhaps you guys have forgotten that as you are in a prominent position here that what you say may well carry more weight and therefore stick in peoples minds when making a decision about a certain trader/tuner. Not to say anything you do would be vindictive or malicious to any trader/tuner but unfortunately it may happen.

Nice to see this ain't turning into a slagging match.

Glen


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

TOKYO said:


> A very old saying springs to mind.
> 
> NEVER DO YOUR DIRTY WASHING IN PUBLIC.
> 
> Glen


Very well said mate, Its not on to do so.

Ant.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I have to say, I read the original thread in question and this one, and to be honest I mostly agree with James (a rare occurence )

I personally think that 'doing your dirty washing in public' like this should be banned from this forum. Recently this forum seems to have become a bit of a laughing stock and I really, really dont think this kind of nonsense helps.

Ant.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> Recently this forum seems to have become a bit of a laughing stock and I really, really dont think this kind of nonsense helps.


So how do you propose we remedy this ?

No point bashing the moderators if you can offer something constructive


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## tigger (Jan 3, 2002)

maybe this could help 

http://www.trials-shack.co.uk/posting.html


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

*Reading*

This is not on. We realy are all on hear for the 'crack'  
So lets get back to what we do best have a good time and talk about
SKYLINES.(that dosen't mean me though)   Chill out...


Mick


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## paul (Oct 13, 2002)

i left this place because of all the petty cr*p. i see nothing has changed


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Right, back home from an unsuccessful visit to the casino although it was good to see Jimmy White and some of the Men & Motors girls in the flesh. 

I feel like I'm between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one now, should I try to explain further why I started the original thread or not? My feeling is that despite all the advice not to wash in public, I can't let James' attack against me stand without some defence on my part.....

Firstly, I have already apologised for closing the other thread and re-opened it. I only closed it as some contributors to it asked for that to happen and the thread was also going off on a tangent. 



bladerider said:


> Above all else I feel that Peter has abused his position of responsibility once too often. Im sorry mate, I think you're a nice guy, but something happens to you when you get stressed about your perceived treatment by *insert any tuner here* and then go mental on a public forum. I dont know if this is your way of spiting them and getting revenge for your perceived injustice, or if you think that these public trials somehow embarress the tuners involved so much that your particular problem will just go away.


At the risk of repeating myself yet again, it was not me that decided to involve other parties in a private matter between myself and RBM nor was it my decision to divulge who the other thread was about. Now some on here, James included obviously, may value their relationship with this forum and it's members more than their wife/partner but I don't. They involved my wife who is infinitely more important to me than this forum. To send my wife copies of invoices for works which I've previously had done to my car in some perverse, petty and ultimately unsuccessful attempt to give me some 5hit is unforgiveable imo and to those of you who have pm'd me. I have paid the original quote and on several occasions asked for an explanation why the parts were required and I have still not received any answer whatsoever.

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that perhaps I am different to a lot of Skyline owners who put up with poor service and just pay what they're asked to pay without asking for any reason whatsoever. I run my own building company and almost every day encounter extra works which I seek payment for, it's the nature of the business. What I wouldn't dream of doing is completing the extra works, charging the client and then expect them to pay up without any explanation or warning. Knowing what you do for living James, I cannot understand what part of that you don't appreciate...

Just to try to reinforce this point, this is my email to RBM sent the day after I got my box back:

********
Steve,

One thing I didn't say yesterday was thanks to Rod for getting it done and letting Harry take it away. I have no intention of not paying for something which has been done for me, I'm just gutted that nothing ever goes as planned and always ends up costing more, never ever less. If I was some rich bastard, I wouldn't give a monkeys but I'm not and £400 is a lot of money to me without warning or explanation.

Hopefully, the cheque has arrived this morning. I'll be in touch...

Peter.
********



bladerider said:


> At the end of the day you are not just a member here, but the administrator of the site, and with that comes certain responsibilities. Not acting like a childish premadonna is one of em.
> 
> This forum is the best of its kind from where I sit, but all the cr4p thats floating around at the moment is starting to stick and making us look like a bunch of spoilt kids.


Ouch. What, like spoilt kids who keep putting their hands in their pockets with some kind blind faith that they must and that it's an equitable world out there?



bladerider said:


> I realise that there are a host of other things that are nothing to do with Peters latest outburst that need adressing in the fullness of time and that the site is run in peoples spare time and these cannot all be dealt with immediately, but this is starting to **** me right off, and many others to boot.


Not sure what you mean by "latest outburst"? Sure I started a thread asking for reasons how my PFC had all it's settings mysteriously changed although I can't think of any others, may be you could enlighten me...

Anyway, that's far too much on the subject, I hope that I've explained my position such that at least some of you appreciate why I decided to share my experience with the forum, which some of you have expressed appreciation for, not that I was seeking that. Unless anything deserving of a reply arises out of this post, I'll shut up now.

Little Billy....


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

paul creed said:


> I have felt in the past that money rules,where tuners and suppliers are concerned.If you have none(or very little)then you may aswell walk in naked,cause they dont take any notice of you anyway.


This point resonated with me quite a bit, not because of any specific personal experience per say but because I can very much believe that this is the case with tuning.

There's obviously a difference between a repeat customer coming in with a tight deadline waving blank cheques, and just "normal service". Obviously its just common sense for the tuner to prioritise work as they see fit to ensure they maximise their profits.

Putting it bluntly as things stand currently Skylines are becoming more and more within the price range of young'uns (which given the Skylines demographic is most likely to be "chavs"). Whilst this has been the case for some time with the R32, more recently the R33 GTR is straying into "alternative to Clio Cup or Civic Type-R" price territory. As this continues it is only logical that more and more young people end up owning Skylines - and its probably fair to say that these same young people would baulk at the sort of bills that the likes of Guy, Henry et al used to pay on their R33s.

A bit off topic this but its vaguely relevant to a paradigm shift in what sort of money tuners should expect people to have throwing about. R34 GTR aside the cars are no longer the £25k+ cars that they were a few years ago.

Some food for thought maybe.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Peter said:


> ********
> Steve,
> 
> One thing I didn't say yesterday was thanks to Rod for getting it done and letting Harry take it away. I have no intention of not paying for something which has been done for me, I'm just gutted that nothing ever goes as planned and always ends up costing more, never ever less. If I was some rich bastard, I wouldn't give a monkeys but I'm not and £400 is a lot of money to me without warning or explanation.
> ...


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

I have been reading all this for days wondering whether to comment or not.
I do chat to Peter by email and so don't always hear the 'news' on the forum. I still don't think that I know enough facts to make a judgement.
.........pause while I ring Rod on his mobile for a chat @ 10.20 on Sunday morning...............
I have two bills invoices to pay from RBM. 20/08/04 & 19/07/04(!)
Rod has not chased me as he trusts me.
One is (only) for £434.75 but I am trying to pay some by cheque as well as credit card and will do so next week. The bill is for Nismo stat, hicas lock out, antifreeze, 2nd hand clutch cover (free of charge!) and labour.
I consider the bill very fair and did not get a quote as the clutch went on the way up there and I had to leave the car with him (and get the train home).

Rod is not bothered by this 'complaint' on the forum and only sent the bills to Peter's wife in an attempt to get the bill in front of Peters eyes as he was not talking to RBM about them. It was not to try and cause problems in his marriage!

A telephone call between the two parties is what is needed to resolve this situation. No matter how much I or Keith intervene, it is none of our business, just the two parties themselves.

Sometimes these things escalate and the two sides do not talk but a ten minute phone call is all that is needed to sort it.
I sorted a misunderstanding out between a mate and a tuner last week and that is ok now.

I hope this gets sorted Peter as I am a bit upset that it has come to this. The forum has been on a chill out period before and needs to chill out again!

Let's get back to talking amiably fellow forum members.
Dave


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## BlueFin (Oct 18, 2002)

This is just getting crazy. Keith I don't want to interject between you and Peter but in regards to publishing the email, I personally don't want to know. It's been said before, it's a misundertanding, sort it out privately. As a user it's disheartening to see this.  

Said before hindsight is wonderful thingn and I regret posting on Peter's original thread and I really wish hadn't and the reason there are two sides to every story, simple as that!

As for reducing/stopping these kind of threads we should implement some kind of user satisfaction survey if people want to air their gratitude or displeasure of the service they have received form a garage/tuner.


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

Am I the only one to be rather alarmed at the Keith's comments here?

As a potential customer of RBM, can I now expect my patronage to come with the condition that private emails between myself and RBM could be not only read at random by a CUSTOMER, but published on the net for all to see?

Now as much as I like the idea of the OSG twin plate for my car, I would prefer to preserve my privacy.

Paul


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

I hope people see what I meant. Whether the comments made by Peter or whoever are valid or not is unimportant. The fact that people are now questioning there judgements/choices and personal emails may be shown is wrong.

Whoever is right or wrong this is going the wrong way.

Glen.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Pavlo said:


> Am I the only one to be rather alarmed at the Keith's comments here?
> 
> As a potential customer of RBM, can I now expect my patronage to come with the condition that private emails between myself and RBM could be not only read at random by a CUSTOMER, but published on the net for all to see?
> 
> ...


I think i am a bit more than just a customer to R.B Motorsport.
Rod and I have been best of friends for 5 or 6 years now.   

Keith


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## xaero1 (Feb 9, 2004)

Why doesn't one of the admin team just delete the this thread and Peter's original thread? 

It looks to me like what's said is said, everyone has made their point and there is no more reason to have these two disheartening threads on the forum.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

guys,

i'm a newbie, and know none of you, or the tuners from Adam, but as a moderator of my old car owners club, and in light of what is happeneing over there, and what is happeneing here, can i add that this sort of disscusion in the public form does the forum and the club itself no good.

Firstly negative threads honestly get people down, and if coming on here isn't fun, people will stop. I've already read a number of threads from people saying "this place has changed" and "i don't come here much anymore"

Its a real shame that a forum can make people feel this way, but it does, and i hope to god that pettiness, in fighting and bitching isn't going to bring this place down.

Can i suggest, as a newbie, that this sort of thing be posted in a hidden moderator area, or held via email, as it creates a negative view of the forum, and might make people feel the need to look for another source or club to be part of.

just my opinion as a moderator from a club going through very similar changes.

mook


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

keith said:


> I think i am a bit more than just a customer to R.B Motorsport.
> Rod and I have been best of friends for 5 or 6 years now.
> 
> Keith


Missing the point mate.

Private is private in my book.

I wasnt going to add anything after Peters response, but basically I dont care about any of the justifications. I dont discuss my private dealings with Nemesis, Abbey, GT Art or any other tuner I use, and neither should others. I agree with the points raised by Peter et al that if a job is going over budget the person paying should be informed and given a choice. Whether it has or not in this case is of no relevance as I dont wish to read about it on an open forum. End of.

J.

PS Im shocked too AJ !!


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

Keith,
Regardless of your relationship with RB you have absolutely no right whatsoever to read or divulge the content of private communications between RB and any of his customers.

For goodness sake don't you understand how dodgy all of this now sounds. Previous paid invoices sent to your wife, and publication of private communications. Whatever next. 




We've gone off topic with this thread, if anyone else has comments to add regarding the Peter / RB situation, will they please do so in the other thread.

This thread would be better served with constructive criticism and suggestions of how to move forward and improve upon a poor situation.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Anyway, my original suggestion still stands. Ban any threads with customers complaining about the tuners. In Glens words ban 'people doing their dirty washing in public' Thats my suggestion - I am not having 'a go' at anyone, that sort of thing doesnt interest me.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

AJFleming said:


> Anyway, my original suggestion still stands. Ban any threads with customers complaining about the tuners. In Glens words ban 'people doing their dirty washing in public' Thats my suggestion - I am not having 'a go' at anyone, that sort of thing doesnt interest me.


Sort of defeats the idea of a public forum don't you think Ant? Or should people only make positive comments about people/tuners/cars and then we can judge those by the lack of such feedback...


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

again, what about creating a forum, viewable only by paid members, with a "name and shame" section.

If someone starts bitching about a "paid sponser" the members have a chance to hear the views, without possibly tarnishing the tuner reputation to the public. If the person they bitch about is a non-sponsor, it gives you a chance to air your experiance, amongst others who might be in the same boat.

if the "complaints" are extensive, or exceptional, the mods can discuss the fututre of the tuners sponsership, or, if the accusations are false and slanderous, memberships can be revoked.

i suppose.

but, as you all know each other, and you all get along in "the real world" you should be able to dicuss this in a more private, less sensitive area.

I have no opinion on the original incident as i ve been told the same story, by 3 sources and none of them match.

That makes Peter and RB look bad IMHO. If i had'nt read it at all, and you guys had sorted it behind closed doors, this thread would never have been needed.

anyweay, thats my input.


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## dinges (May 21, 2004)

AJFleming said:


> Anyway, my original suggestion still stands. Ban any threads with customers complaining about the tuners. In Glens words ban 'people doing their dirty washing in public' Thats my suggestion - I am not having 'a go' at anyone, that sort of thing doesnt interest me.


I'm sorry but I don't agree on this.
I am new to this forum but I have been on other forums for a long time now, so I have seen my share of ups and downs in forumlife .
I can see ur point on this but imo it is good to have a place where people can write down their experiences with tuners, be it bad and good.
I think we all agree that sending a letter to ones wife and not calling someone about additional costs are bad things, but if it was never adressed to then it could happen to other people and go on forever, which would mean alot of angry and disappointed people. (not that i think or suggest the tuner in this case does this more often, never met them so i won't judge on it, only used it as example)
The meaning of a forum imo is that it spreads knowledge around, so if u got a rotten apple amongst the tuners in the end it will be known, if there is an incredibly good tuner around it works the same way.
This will only benefit us in the end and help tuners to see what their customers are looking for, so it works both ways.
I think Mooky's idea of a members area where these things can be discussed is a good one, in holland one of the scooby forums they have a seperate section where people can write down their experience with the tuners, and the tuners can also reply to the forum users if they wish to do so.
I think this works really well, and it might work in here aswel, just an idea mind u 

Anyway, these are my two cents.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I just don't agree with being criticised if a comment is made on a thread such as the 'how low can you go' one because 'you don't know the situation'?
Thought the function of a public forum was to air this sort of thing  

Anyway no need to fight guys, we all get variable service from time to time, and I can't see why we can't report on it tbh. *shrug*

T


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Mookistar said:


> again, what about creating a forum, viewable only by paid members, with a "name and shame" section.
> 
> If someone starts bitching about a "paid sponser" the members have a chance to hear the views, without possibly tarnishing the tuner reputation to the public. If the person they bitch about is a non-sponsor, it gives you a chance to air your experiance, amongst others who might be in the same boat.
> 
> ...


Mate the whole purpose of a forum is to allow people to learn about a subject matter. To be honest, I dont see why someone should have to pay to learn of someones good or bad experiences.

I cant help but fear this is only such a hot issue on this forum because there are such deep alegiances to specific tuners.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

> REGARDLESS of what Rod did, and how Peter responded, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE ELSE, and people seem to be missing the point here that albeit have an opinion AFTER ITS been sorted, but NOT on a public forum unless both parties are quite happy for it !


I totally agree with this (from the now CLOSED thread) the fact is that although this is public forum and people do have the right to say what they want, people are not always responsible for the consequences of their words.

If you want to slag someone of in public, or complain then people dont always realise that there are always 2 sides to every story. This is peoples livliehoods at stake and typing a bunch of stuff against them can have a very bad effect on a reputation EVEN IF IT IS NOT JUSTIFIED. This is why I think that threads like the one in question should be banned. Yes people have freedom of speech, but if they cant be mature and responsible with their words then they should be silenced. This is not meant as a personal attack on Peter, I dont agree with what he did, but I dont want to judge a situation I know little about - it should be left to Rod and Peter to sort it out.

I will add that if an unfair allegation was EVER levelled at Sterte Garage on a web forum I would strongly consider legal action, I know this has happened to other traders in the past and its amazing how the keyboard warriors stop once the reality of court comes into the equation. Disputes are to be resolved by the people having the dispute not anyone else. 

I am not interested in upsetting anyone on the forum (with the exception of Bladey    ) but I do feel strongly about this subject.

Ant.


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Cor it's like the MLR on here  

Sad to say but this forum almost doesn't seem happy unless there is some sort of arguement/battle going on


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

This will be my last post on this as I find arguing with people clearly unable to understand plain English extremely frustrating.

For the record:

1) I am not taking Peters side, I am not in possession of all the facts - no one is besides Peter and RBM. My previous post (on the other thread) stated "as far as I have been led to believe thus far" - in other words, "until I hear information to the contrary". I would've hoped people using this forum would be intelligent enough to understand what this statement means.. it's not "here are the facts".. its "here is my opinion based on _what information is currently known_".. that's it, no more, no less.

2) I don't know RBM, I haven't used RBM (due to distance really) and have heard nothing but good things about RBM (for the benefit of the cheap seats & retards who can't read English - this means "RBM is great as far as I have heard"). I don't know Peter other than on this board, I've never spoken to him offline, and never met him in real life.. he is as much a "friend" as anyone else on the forum. If anything I would therefore consider myself more impartial than certain other people, but according to these same people I am not. Again, basic inability to read plain English.

3) I personally believe that threads like this *can* be constructive. *IF* what Peter has said is 100% true and *IF* it was a deliberate act then I would want to be aware of business practices like these so I could avoid whichever company was responsible for them. By the same token when another unnamed tuner (not RBM) was rubbished on here, and other forums for overcharging and blowing up peoples cars - do you not think the community has a right to know this information?.. or would you rather people continue to take their pride and joy to this specific tuner oblivious to this information? Perhaps this valuable information should be restricted to word of mouth only, so some poor soul who isn't in the inner circle of "those in the know" gets screwed by this tuner. 

I'd be interested to know how many people who proclaim that threads like this should be banned would be so quick to shout if Peter (or anyone) had been blocked from relaying their negative and immutably true experiences of a specific tuner, when that person ended up using the same tuner and getting the same treatment. Bottom line - it's easy to sit in ivory towers when you're not the one on the end of an unexplained £400+ invoice and ear-bashing from the wife... *IF* its true.



> * will add that if an unfair allegation was EVER levelled at Sterte Garage on a web forum I would strongly consider legal action*


..and you'd be right to take legal action. If Peter (or anyone) had come on here and said "Mr Sakimoto Tuning Inc blew up my car, they're rubbish!" without any proof, then he should rightly expect legal action. There is a World of difference between this and Peters post however. I suspect Peter is clever enough (uh oh I've said something which might make people think we're best buddies!!!) to realise that if everything he has said is disproved, or over-embellished, then by going public and subsequently shown to be lying he will end up publicly humiliated. I would therefore be very surprised if what he has said isn't rooted in truth, even if there is some misunderstanding in the mix.

As far as whether or not this matter should've been posted - it's a moot point now really, the damage is technically already done. Cutting a swath through the rose-tinted sycophantic posts I have yet to see anyone refute any of the "facts" (notice the speech marks, i.e. alleged) that Peter has put forward, which is more telling than any personal attacks on him or anyone else, myself included.

Time will tell, I guess.


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

AJFleming said:


> I will add that if an unfair allegation was EVER levelled at Sterte Garage on a web forum I would strongly consider legal action, Ant.



ah ha, but what happens if the comments or complaints were fair and reasonable, and there had been no resolution to a dispute prior to the 
keyboard post?

it seems to me that once upon a time traders could fairly well treat customers how they wished, reason ? 'cause folk had no means of expressing thier disquiet about thier treatment, if the trader had carved a niche market via accident or design they could charge what ever hourly rate they liked knowing full well the punter had no choice but to pay, now with the advent of more and more importers and more specialists the paying public have not only more choice but they have a new weapon with which to 'retaliate' (that word is carefully choosen) because they know they can do serious damage to a hard earned reputation by bashing a few keys, this medium of communication is all well and good and is a fantastic resource, but it also allows immeadiate retribution if things go wrong, nowadays you have to focus on quality service as a whole rather than quality of service


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

Both myself and SteveN, possibly others (can't remember) say Powerstation in Cheltenham is rubbish - and no-one tries to shut us up, nor does a huge debate erupt between important members of this forum/club (who have nothing to do with the matter in hand) whenever we do! Why should we allow a business we know to be unreliable to continue getting away with poor business practises??

And on the other side of the coin - why should we not recommend a particular business thanks to great service or products we have received in the past?

My previous home, the Honda owners club (HondaRevolutions) understands that one use of their forum is to hear honest experiences from people who have used a particular dealer / tuner / product - be they good or bad. In fact it's pretty much EXPECTED that you report a bad experience so that other people can benefit from it! I honestly can't see what all the fuss is about. As far as I can see, Peter has reported something that has happened to him and nothing else.

OK I know Peter is a moderator, and could _possibly_ be construed as abusing his position, but what if I want to slate / recommend something or someone? Can I, or not?


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

gertmuppet said:


> because they know they can do serious damage to a hard earned reputation by bashing a few keys, this medium of communication is all well and good and is a fantastic resource, but it also allows immeadiate retribution if things go wrong, nowadays you have to focus on quality service as a whole rather than quality of service



Unfortunatly gert its also open to abuse, I had a lady fall out with me over a car club, I pulled her up about her attitude to another member.

When her clutch failed she decided to slander my company name on every forum possible, even after the car was repaired and I was proven completely innocent of what she had claimed she continued to do so and will do so untill the day she dies I guess.

Its a great theory you have but like many things in life it fails in practise. Are we as mechanics/garage owners/suppliers/tuners open to blackmail for the fear of someone illegitamatly slandering us for their own needs?

I think not gert, I have simple soloution. If you dont trust the person that is repairing your car to do the job to the best of their abilities and treat you fairly ............ dont take it there, end of story.

In particular I draw you back to your own quote "because they know they can do serious damage to a hard earned reputation by bashing a few keys" Note that in your own words you describe a situation where a company who has worked long and hard over a period of time to gain a good reputation can have it ruined in a few keystokes for what ....... because someone is unhappy I shouted at them over a non work related matter?

All that will happen if this attitude persists is that you will end up in a situation that its not just customers that will look for garages they can trust .... but also garages that look for customers they can trust


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

Pikey said:


> but what if I want to slate / recommend something or someone? Can I, or not?


whatever, just make sure it's not sterte garage, or ajf will sue your a** off


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## JGTR (Jul 8, 2004)

Being able to talk about different experiences with different companies is one of the good points about having a forum like this, the problem arises when people dont think before they post and act in an immature manner, without the facts etc and try to take their anger out by writing dumbass posts.

I have been following the recent post from which this one evolved and TBH I have found it rather comical....if, for instance a tuner was found to be fitting low grade parts, charging for work that wasnt done or generally doing a shite job then I could understand a lot of posts/discussion about it, I'd want to know about it if I was condsidering using them, but for something so trivial to cause such a stir is just comical.....I thought the GTR forum wouldn't be a bit more mature but it obviously isn't, just a like a bunch of girls   

Please dont think I'm having a dig...I'd rather that you laugh than get ****ed off with me, and hopefully things will get better  :smokin:


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

I am not going to comment on Peters post, don't know the facts, but the fact that he started the post with a simple question, without mentioning any tuners names is spot on by me. Nothing wrong with that. 

Change of direction

Most of us enthusiasts would never have heard about specialist Skyline tuners out there if it weren't for this forum. Loads of these tuners get free advertising by punters listing 'tuned by xyz' in thier signatures. In other words they would be nothing without the mentions they get in this forum.

Secondly we are all grown ups, we can all see through the crap slinging that goes on in some posts, without it seriously affecting our choices to send our business in the direction of slagged off tuners. We may change our rules of engagement with all tuners in line with the experiences from someone like Peter's, to the good of all. 

As for 'Mechanics/Tuners' they are often the bearers of bad news, and as such are subject to the despair of the vehicle owners. Part of the job. 
It does not help if they are not fully clear and concise about the condition and subsequent costs involved in components that they didn't account for in thier quotes. Doctors have the same problem, 'bed side manners' I believe it's called, is a quality a good dr. needs to learn, and so too do mechanics it seems. On the other hand though,they can't be expected to forsee the condition of an engines/gearboxes internals w/out opening them up, and as punters we can't expect them to strictly adhere to whats in the quote only, as no doubt as professionals they want to do a proper job, and replace suspect parts not taken into account. However the general code of conduct listed by many in the other post would say that the punter should be contacted if the quote is not going to cover the full findings (Also no wives or mothers to be involved). Nuff said there. 

So to sum up , tuners get good mentions and bad ones on these forums, and as long as they have more yahs than nahs said about them, they will still be in business tomorrow, if not, maybe they deserve to fall by the wayside. 
This forum should not be strangled in any way. After all, the postings are only typed opinions, and I'm sure we can all sift through the BS and extract the truth, it's what makes it interesting.


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Crail Loser said:


> All that will happen if this attitude persists is that you will end up in a situation that its not just customers that will look for garages they can trust .... but also garages that look for customers they can trust


Very interesting comment Marc!


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

I came on here at first for some info about an R33 GTS-t. Havent been able to leave since. You lot crack me up the amount of arguing that goes on. It does indeed make for good popcorn/14" monitor action as stated above.


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

*2 way street*



Crail Loser said:


> All that will happen if this attitude persists is that you will end up in a situation that its not just customers that will look for garages they can trust .... but also garages that look for customers they can trust


 fair comment what it boils down to is a two way relationship between garage and customer, i've been involved in the motor trade for 30+ years, i know what punters can be like, ie very demanding, i guess what your saying is about garages 'sizing up' their customers, i have been subject to that on a personal level, i went to one location not long after i got my skyline, feeling very vunerable and isolated, the said garage could hardly give me the time of day, and obviously wrote me off as a waster, i went to another location, total opposite, couldn't have been more helpfull, the upshot being, i have just been out and got an hks 3040gt setup and a spare engine, hopefully 'my man' will be willing to nail it all together, and the catalyst for all this? in his words "wow, this car deserves a 700 bhp engine" I walked out of that place feeling like a dog with six co*ks, after being worried about if i'd just brought a bit of a pooper, wether he meant it or not, he's probably going to have an earner out of me, and on customer service alone he deserves it, the original location wont worry they are up to their eyeballs in work, no doubt, shame i was put down as a poverty stricken muppet, i certainly dont mind paying good mony for a job well done, and if i pay up and look big hopefully i'll be welcomed back, from my own perch, all i know is i need my tuner more than he needs me, it just seems most punters feel the opposite


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

so the conclusion people seem to have reached is

"its a public forum, so we can say what we like, and if a tuner treats someone badly we deserve to know"


which simply does'nt cut it



If i come on here and say a particular tuner fits substandard parts, over charged, raped my wife, etc, it's simply my word against thiers, and i can pretty much say what i like.

unvetted, uncensored, against someones life long work and livelyhood, and every newbie, or ditherer who reads my thread can decide to listen to me, and never use that tuner again.

thats not on.

If i put a post in an area where it could be "seen" but not in the public domain, my comments could be picked to peices, without damaging the tuners reputation. And without being construde (is that a word?) as libel.

if the allegations are picked over and still hold truth at the end, people will make thier judgements.

and i know full well if the big guns on here walk away from a particular tuner, apart from those not on the forum, that tuner won't last 5 minutes.

just my opinion.

mook


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Christ...

Just got back from holiday, will reply later after some sleep....

Cem


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## skyline501 (Jun 29, 2001)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GertMuppet:
i have been subject to that on a personal level, i went to one location not long after i got my skyline, feeling very vunerable and isolated, the said garage could hardly give me the time of day, and obviously wrote me off as a waster,


I say start another thread and name them.  

Vincenzo


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## KrazY_IvaN (Dec 30, 2002)

Dam I fogot how exciting this place could be


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Mookistar said:


> so the conclusion people seem to have reached is
> 
> "its a public forum, so we can say what we like, and if a tuner treats someone badly we deserve to know"
> 
> ...


Well said. This is what I mean exactly. If people cant be responsible with their words then they shouldnt have a voice. 

Ant.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Yawn 

How can you stop people saying what they think? Granted, it should be done is an 'appropriate' manner, but none the less, this is a public forum and 'we' are entitled to put our perspective forward. Simple as.


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

Blow Dog said:


> Christ...
> 
> Just got back from holiday, will reply later after some sleep....
> 
> Cem


Always some kind of playground drama on here...


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Agreed, I don't think people should be 'silenced' just incase 'they can't be sensible'. I don't like to see verbal fights either though tbh, it's destructive to forum life.

I moderate on another forum, we've had legal threats etc. but our line at the end of the day is people are entitled to report their TRUE experiences as a customer. That is not slander, it's reporting fact. If a company feels hard done by they are welcome to put their side, but we don't allow it to degenerate.

What this thread demonstrates is the forum needs a policy on it, but I'm against the stifiling of reporting of bad practice tbh. 

T.


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## IanH (Nov 23, 2002)

How about this - If you want to post a negative thread about a Tuner/garage etc them PM a Mod and tell the other person what you've done so that Both sides have a chance to put forward their case. Once a Mod has both sides he can allow it to be posted or not.

Workable idea?


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

IanH said:


> How about this - If you want to post a negative thread about a Tuner/garage etc them PM a Mod and tell the other person what you've done so that Both sides have a chance to put forward their case. Once a Mod has both sides he can allow it to be posted or not.
> 
> Workable idea?


Not really, because i cant see any moderator willingly agreeing to have a thread started which is going to see a tuner slated, and end up in a huge battle of sides anyways


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

IanH said:


> How about this - If you want to post a negative thread about a Tuner/garage etc them PM a Mod and tell the other person what you've done so that Both sides have a chance to put forward their case. Once a Mod has both sides he can allow it to be posted or not.
> 
> Workable idea?


Entirely unworkable. How much spare time do you think people want to give to regulating what is/is not a worthy cause to bleat about?

The sensible suggestion of reporting fact holds merit in my eyes, but this has been covered so many times I thought that it was standard practice anyway?

In any case, all this will be forgotten by next week...


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

we have yet to see the claims put forward by Peter to be disputed. There have been reasons and the like, but the few simple claims currently stand as fact.

Paul


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

Keith,

Just to lighten up the thread a wee tad, does Rod have your name tattoo'ed down the side of his car  - End of that one.

Generally on this post
Bat thread, bad vibes, Bad everything.... If your like me, you write out a posting and think nah thats going to be taken the wrong way, and edit it or just dont post. Time I think for people to take to heart what they write, if I mean they think the things they write do not deserve some sort of verbal retribution, if they disagree or you think so, then dont post it.

There are a lot of people in here and lets face it you can not please all of the people all of the time. 

Best keep a lot of things to yourself, share the good, the ideas the technical, after all this is one of the reasons for a Forum.

Mark


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Pavlo said:


> we have yet to see the claims put forward by Peter to be disputed. There have been reasons and the like, but the few simple claims currently stand as fact.
> 
> Paul


Maybe the other half are actually laughing at the thread instead of wasting time replying to it ? After all both threads have descended into near anarchy !

I would imagine Rod is probably more interested in carrying out decent priced, quality work than posting on a forum which has become rather "childish" of late. He cant be doing reduced rate gearbox rebuilds for EVERYONE now  

Correct me someone if i am wrong..............

Michael


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Howsie said:


> Yawn
> 
> How can you stop people saying what they think? Granted, it should be done is an 'appropriate' manner, but none the less, this is a public forum and 'we' are entitled to put our perspective forward. Simple as.


Agreed but people are not always 'appropriate' though are they.
I doubt there is much that can be done about it, but it was nice to have a rant anyway. I cant be arsed to post anymore on this thread.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

*It was the French philospher Voltaire who said*

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

That said. We all have a right to say how we feel about some treatment we have received. However this does not give one freedom to 'publish' with impunity. So the defence of the right to speech should also be extended to the originator to defend what they say.

In short: open discussion is good as long as it can be supported with fact. Opinion is good as long as it does not prejudice another unjustly.

Simple enough


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Very well said John, that was the sort of intelligent comment I would expect from an RX7 owner not a Skybus driver.


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

I kept out of this for a long time, mainly because I spent most of the time reading the damned threads. That's a lot of work!

From my experience postings such as Peters invariably end up with the problem being solved one way or another. The solution is usually put up on the thread in the end. This means anyone can have an entertaining read, watch the handbags swing and the fur fly and then at the end see the outcome and make their own judgement. 

I beleive that it is the moderators duty to ensure that the thread does not get "out of hand" and that a solution to the thread is eventually posted. Additionally in cases where little evidence for such allegations are given the moderator should attempt to clarify the situation and if they are not satisfied with the "facts" they are given the thread should be closed with a suitable note attached. If this is done then only a bit of pride is hurt in the long run. In this case I see RBM being recommended all over this and other forums, one bad thread will not do RBM any long term damage.

I suppose there are many reasons why Rod himself has not posted, perhaps Peter's allegations are true, perhaps Rod realises it doesn't really matter what people think of him or his company or perhaps he just doesn't want to get involved in a slanging match in public.

Having said all this there seem to be a number of outstanding issues :

[1] Peter clearly has a grievance. This was not about money but about the customer service given by RBM. Regardless of how demanding or anal Peter may be RBM is a COMPANY and should grin and bear it. In this case it seems a simple explanation as to what the parts were for and why they were used would have stopped this mess. At this point it seems that Peter still does not have this explanation, why?

[2] A company regardless of it's size is subject to the data protection act. Sending "purchasing" information to Peter's wife is illegal, full stop. It also does not show much professionalism.

[3] Keith's comments regarding reading and posting Peters emails also break the DPA. Why does Keith have access to private and confidential purchasing infomation at RBM, is he an employee? Either way RBM will suffer as they are breaking the DPA. I don't know Keith other than reading posts on this forum but I have lost a little respect for him after his posts here.

[4] A number of RBM employees(?) have jumped to the company's defence but are not denying the facts, just attacking Peter for bringing the problem out into the open. Again this is unprofessional, regardless of how abusive a customer is you DO NOT lower yourself to their level. A simple explanation of the problem would suffice with a statement of the company's intentions on how they will attempt to resolve the issue.

I expect that in the next couple of days Peter will post a message saying everything is resolved and he is happy again.

Finally, this episode in my mind anyway, highlights how far many tuners have still to go when it comes to customer service and professionalism. I would not dispute their skills as mechanics but I have had a number of experiences with tuners where I leave thinking, "nice guy, no idea about running a company or customer service". From my point of view, I don't care whether you built Keiths superdooper R32, Ronnies all conquering TOTB R33 or built your own 200mph+ R33. I want my <fill in the blank> fixed, I want an estimate of the costs, a cup of coffee when I turn up and treated with respect. This whole thing of "we need our tuners more than they need us" is bollocks! I am a fcuking customer and expect to be treated with respect. In turn I will pay my bills, recommend your company and treat it with the respect it deserves. Lets face it if Peter was talking about Tesco Insurance we'd all be jumping up and down saying how bad big businesses are and how they have no respect for their customers. Why should tuners, mechanics, parts suppliers etc get treated any differently?

Rant over , flame suit on


----------



## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Durzel seems to me to have the finest grasp of the situation and I couldn't have explained it any better.

I try my best to remain impartial to these kind of posts. I've used almost all the major tuners in my time and I've had experiences good and bad with all of them. Sometimes, I've been faced with such disgraceful behaviour that I've been tempted to go online and tell everyone about them. I can't though, the repercussions of doing so would be too grand.

In my opinion, tuners are like football players and forum users are the media. We build them up, we pledge our loyalties and then when we no longer have use of them, we de-construct them. In a world where reputations are built on online forums, trade should be placing a far higher importance on the relevance of these new forms of media. 

As far as I can read, Peter isn't in any dispute over any specific work. It was Peter's original recommendation that led me to spend 1000's of pounds with RBM. However, the tactics that seem to be employed to obtain the remaining funds are certainly not the type I'd be happy with. I'm open with my wife about all (well, most ) of my spendings. But I know that 90% of people do NOT disclose what they spend on their cars. To me, it seems a reckless and somewhat vindictive method of gaining someones attention. 

Many people have said to Peter to keep these discussions off-line and in private conversations. However, I understand that all Peters offline enquiries have gone unanswered.

I cannot get involved to the extent where I'm publically taking sides. RB have never supported the forum despite my business with them, so I should have no obligations to them, but I do. I hope that this is noted.

I also wanted to highlight some posts that stuck a little.



AJFleming said:


> I personally think that 'doing your dirty washing in public' like this should be banned from this forum. Recently this forum seems to have become a bit of a laughing stock.





MichaelG said:


> a forum which has become rather "childish" of late.





paul said:


> i left this place because of all the petty cr*p. i see nothing has changed


I have physical cash tied up in this forum and unlimited amount of invested time and effort. Are your comments based simply on these two threads (out of 25,000) or does your opinion extend to deeper issues? If so then I'd like to know more because this does affect my ability to succesfully maintain this forum. If there are areas worthy of discussion then I'd like to listen to them. This is an organic site that has and does evolve - if it didn't then it would cease to exist as the needs and current affairs of this scene change daily.



keith said:


> Thanks for posting that email Peter
> 
> when I am down at R.B Motorsport next week I will have a look on the R.B computer and see
> if this is all that was said or if you have cut some parts out to make you look the good guy.
> ...


Keith, 
This amazes me. Not only would that put a serious light on the privacy and trust between both RB and clients, but would also suggest that RB are in breech of the data protection act. I would reserve judgement of this pending your disclosure of any professional relationships you may have with RB. This affects me as I've also sent private information to RB in the past.



bladerider said:


> Above all else I feel that Peter has abused his position of responsibility once too often. Im sorry mate, I think you're a nice guy, but something happens to you when you get stressed about your perceived treatment by *insert any tuner here* and then go mental on a public forum. I dont know if this is your way of spiting them and getting revenge for your perceived injustice, or if you think that these public trials somehow embarress the tuners involved so much that your particular problem will just go away.
> 
> At the end of the day you are not just a member here, but the administrator of the site, and with that comes certain responsibilities. Not acting like a childish premadonna is one of em.
> 
> This forum is the best of its kind from where I sit, but all the cr4p thats floating around at the moment is starting to stick and making us look like a bunch of spoilt kids.





bladerider said:


> You have become a bitter and twisted soul of late mate. Unfortunately I just tell it how it is, whether thats right, wrong, good or bad is not of my doing.
> 
> I resent that you feel such a pompous overblown estimate of your own importance that you would think that we are interested in your inability to sort out your own correspondance
> 
> ...


Hello James 

As an ambassador of the forum, you do a sterling job and I mean that without jest. I would even go as far as to offer you a position as an official ambassador of GTR.co.uk. You are 'WYSIWYG', both behind the screen and in person - which is why I enjoy reading your posts and chatting with you (and your dad  ) in person. In fact, I'd almost even agree with your post above on the points about moderation v impartiality.

Now, you knew this was coming, but....

I don't agree with the way you've said it and as friends to both you and Peter, I'm really hoping that this doesn't in any way affect your relationship. 

If you're saying that as moderators and administrators, we need to draw the line sometimes, then I agree wholeheartedly. This doesn't mean that we should shut up entirely though. With Peter, I think he was totally entitled to say what he did. I wouldn't have done it, but I support his decision to do so entirely. But I think your descriptions of him are grossly innacurate, as you know it's one thing being insulted by a stranger but it's another when you're offended by a friend.

It's ok to support a tuner, but is it not ok to disclose your grievances? I don't agree with this. It makes the trade both complacent and aloof and in a world where you're spending 1000's of pounds in one hit, I want the best.

I just want to highlight what I think is the best post - this is from the closed thread. Now this appears to be without garnish, straight to the point and without foreplay. Why can't anyone answer this?


Durzel said:


> Hold on a sec..
> 
> Not taking sides here but as far as I have been led to believe thus far:
> 
> ...



I think I want to close this topic at the end of today, give everyone a chance to put some final words in, but there's not really much more benefit of having such a thread continue.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Mattb,

Sorry, cross posted but just wanted to say bloody spot on.
This is EXACTLY the reason why people like me, Guy and Henry left the scene and became Porsche customers instead. When you're spending the amount of money we were, you have expectations of service and support which is SORELY lacking in this industry. As you've said, the fact that these are great people have nothing to do with it. You spend the money, you want the service. 

I've got a Hall of Shame section on my private website where people used to tell me about their bad experiences with corporates and the like. I wouldn't think twice about telling the world how crap Tempo was or Currys were. Why do we feel do different about it now?

Cem


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

Cem,

If you do close this thread and the other can you also make a point of posting the conclusion, if Peter provides you with it of course. Don't think I am being nosey but if RBM settle this and Peter is happy it should be acknowledged for anyone browsing the thread in the future. Equally importantly if RBM do not satisfy their customer then I as a potential client I would like to know why.

I have seen your Hall of Shame page, it's great. I have often thought of sending my Tesco Insurance one to it but I don't think you have the space  Hopefully this thing will sort itself out soon and everyone can learn from it.


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## SimonSays (Jun 11, 2003)

It's obvious this whole situation is very unfortunate, and a result of bad communication.

In Dutch, there's a saying that goes something like

*Good bills make good friends* 

This is obvious if you're talking about your own friends, but this is also true for any bill you come across, be it as the "billed" or the "biller".

If the bill is right and just, there won't be a problem. If the bill or part thereof is not justified, there will be trouble.

I just hope Peter and RBM will solve this issue soon.

Simon


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

SimonSays said:


> In Dutch, there's a saying that goes something like
> 
> *Good bills make good friends*


The quickest way to make a friend is to smile  Kids who show an interest in other kids and who are kind and friendly make good friends.


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## potyks (Jun 9, 2004)

errrr. why has this forum got a "garages" section in technical.... inviting comments on "experiences"? Tellmeif I'm wrong but wasn't Peters post about his experiences with an "unnamed" tuner. Someone else threw RBM name into the hat. Why??? seems to me RBM (who has worked on my car(s) would have not been named if it weren't for someone elses agenda. You can't pick and choose who gets flamed on a public board if you invite comments about garage experiences. loyalties one thing, selective sensorship is something else. AS long as there is a right to reply there aint a problem


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

I agree. I have seen post after post about how good a tuner is when I have spoke to someone else who was very angry with work done by the same tuner. Only the good things were posted which seemed a bit one sided.
RBM has done me many favours in the past but I very rarely ever post anything. Word gets around.
Nice post Cem. Good to see a decent impartial post on here!
Dave


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## Jabberwock (Jun 24, 2003)

......which all just goes to show that you can think what you like (no mind police yet  ).

You can also say what you like........but must accept the consequences, realised or not.

Regarding naming and shaming, specialist tuners or garages are in a difficult position sometimes because their work is on show. If I turn up at, say, RBM and see a car that I recognise, then read something on the Forum a couple of weeks later..........see what I mean? 2+2=5 or perhaps 4.

Bearing this in mind you'd think that such companies would be very careful about how they treat their relatively small pool of potential customers.

I'm not defending any alleged malpractice, however. Sending bills to the wife  that would be worse than sending your income to the taxman........


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## soggy (Apr 28, 2003)

mattb said:


> I kept out of this for a long time, mainly because I spent most of the time reading the damned threads. That's a lot of work!
> 
> From my experience postings such as Peters invariably end up with the problem being solved one way or another. The solution is usually put up on the thread in the end. This means anyone can have an entertaining read, watch the handbags swing and the fur fly and then at the end see the outcome and make their own judgement.
> 
> ...


Best F**king post i've read in a long time :smokin:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Thanks Cem,

Sorry you had to come back from holiday to this.

Im afraid I pretty much stand by what I have said, as Im sure you know I would. Its a cliche........but I say what I mean, and mean what I say.

I apologised for having a rip at Peter, but felt I was left with no option, as Im sure he felt he had no option but to pop at me. Indeed it does sting more when its your friend, but Peter and I have a nack of getting to each other, and if someone wants to go at me then Im afraid they will have to expect both barrels, friend or foe, I cant help it !! lol

All of what I feel can be said in one sentence. 

Keep private affairs private until a conclusion has been reached.

Its a principle in law and I personally believe its a principle that forums should be guided by. I totally believe in freedom of speech and our right to say what we like, I am also very grateful that you have a strong enough resolve to uphold that way of thinking, and I realise that others views differ from my own, but at least doing it the private way first allows room for manouvre, everything all out in public early just boxes people into a corner and then pride starts to take over and things just get worse/nastier/personal/etc etc.

I actually agree with alot of what Peter has said, and that sending a bill to ones wife is unforgiveable underhanded pettiness. I just dont like having only one side of a story, that isnt complete and certainly not with the weight of one of our most senior members behind it.

At the end of the day this whole thing will be resoved one of three ways.........Rod will right off the invoice and apologise for his part of the situation, in which case there was little point in the original thread. Peter will get the explanation he wants and pay the outstanding amount, in which case there would be no great point in putting in public a mistake like Rod made with the invoice to Peters wife. Or the matter wont get settled until Peter and Rod meet face to face and either sort it out or end up hating each other, in which case perhaps this would have been appropriate to post about, although not until that point has been reached.

Once again, Im sorry to you, Peter, and any others I may have offended with my views and words, but as described, I feel strongly about this and dont think I am wrong to have this point of view.

Finally I would just add that Keith and Rod need to have a serious think about how they are going to respond. I think the "Laugh at the pointlessness of these threads" approach is not going to wash now the things that have been said are public domain.

J.


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

As I stated at the beginning of this thread, I still pretty much agree 100% with James' comments.

My feelings are that Peter posted very prematurely given his respected position among the community and his position as a moderator and administrator of this site. What he posts has a lot of weight and, in this case, could also have legal ramifications for Cem.
What Moderators post is not the same as a 'John Doe' user, and they should use more restraint.

I've met both Peter and Rod, and both are gents are far as I can tell, so I can only assume that there is a real genuine misunderstanding at the root cause of all this.

The worst thing about this whole episode is that nobody knows any facts (or even 'facts') about it, and yet a large number of people feel qualified to comment and, in some cases, go even further.

The thing that really worries me though is my suspicion that, had anybody else posted the original thread, it would have been 'moderated' within minutes because of the potential for legal comeback against gtr.co.uk
I like this board - I've met a lot of great people and learned a lot, and I don't want to see it at risk.

Last comment - Mailing Peter's wife is most certainly out of order, however, given that legal action would very probably have brought Peter's wife into it anyway, I wonder if that is how Rod was thinking ?


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

bladerider said:


> Im afraid I pretty much stand by what I have said, as Im sure you know I would. Its a cliche........but I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
> 
> Keep private affairs private until a conclusion has been reached.


Sorry if I've quoted you out of context James.

Again, your points are valid and I agree with the methods you suggest, absolutely. My issues lie with, what I felt were, personal attacks on Peter - I guess I feel they were unwarranted and had they not been made, then your points would have held even more weight.

As for the private affairs comment, what happens if he has no reply from months of emails? 

You and I are both in a similar situation right now where, although we don't own Skylines anymore and aren't concerned by the repercussions of this discussion, we still care enough to discuss this out in the open. It's also debates like this that should direct us into creating clear and concise policies regarding the governing of this forum going into the future.

Cem


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Bean said:


> The thing that really worries me though is my suspicion that, had anybody else posted the original thread, it would have been 'moderated' within minutes because of the potential for legal comeback against gtr.co.uk
> I like this board - I've met a lot of great people and learned a lot, and I don't want to see it at risk.


Hi Bean,

You're probably right, as much as I'd hate to say it. 

But, I think it's one thing being sued for your own comments, but it's another matter entirely when you're accepting legal responsibility for the comments of others, but I see your point.

Cem


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Just to conclude things from my perspective...

As I've stated previously, whilst some of you may feel that my posts somehow carry more weight on here, I'm not sure that I totally agree with that but regardless, I would rather resign my 'post' than feel restricted in what I post. I have never knowingly lied or misrepresented the truth here. 

In hindsight, may be I did post prematurely but I was and still am incensed at what happened. May be subconsciously I posted to have a go but, from the outset, I had no intention to name and shame. I was genuinely interested to see if people felt the same way as I did and it's pleasing to see that the majority appear to. It wasn't just the fact that my wife unwittingly became involved or the potential damage this could have done to our relationship but I'm still struggling to think of any sound reason why copies of previously paid invoices were included other than to cause hurt and mischief. May be Rod was unaware that the letter had been sent as it certainly wasn't signed by him, I don't know.

I realise that, apart from information obviously relayed to Charlie and Keith, only my side of this has been told and tbh, whilst I was surprised that Keith was to be given the opportunity to read and publish private emails, I wasn't overly concerned as I have nothing to hide. Indeed, I have mailed Rod twice since getting home, the first immediately prior to starting the other thread and I have still had no response whatsoever. I have to admit though that neither email was particularly conciliatory.

I am still reeling from James' personal attack on me but I'll get over it, in time.  Unfortunately, I think that your last scenario James has already been reached but I'll let you know if that changes.

Thanks to everybody for the emails, pm's and calls, 99% of which were totally supportive of the original thread.

Incidentally, Cem has had all his holidays cancelled for the foreseeable future, his calming influence was much needed it seems...


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

To be fair Peter, who cares that you have had a fall out with RDM. No one really knows the ins and outs of your personal dealings and by airing it on here please tell me what did you want to achieve?

Just a fair question  .

Glen


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Just sharing my experiences Glen, as I always do mate. Don't read it if you're not interested, simple.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

Glen,
I think many people missed the intended point of Peters posting.

He wanted to know if other users of the forum felt that it was wrong of a service provider to send previously paid invoices to his wife.



Or maybe he was trying to take the heat off of me for removing that trade advert


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Peter said:


> Just sharing my experiences Glen, as I always do mate. Don't read it if you're not interested, simple.


I too have experiences I could share Peter but choose not to due to the bull5hit that would follow them. It's a fact so please don't come back to me with the excuse of sharing experiences as it don't cut it.

Correctly or incorrectly, maliciously or non maliciously, you have stirred a hornets nest and caused grief, simple mate, because if that was not your intention then why would you post what you did covering it up with the impression of not naming names when you knew word would get around about who you were talking about anyway. You done this when you were unhappy with AbbeyMotorsport and by not directly naming names you tried to 'innocently' point the finger. You had an underlying trend here to cause grief, thats plain to see so please don't get an attitude or go on the defensive with me about not reading posts  .

Your problems with RBM are PERSONALLY yours, simple, not the forums. 

And again, you KNEW what you were doing by putting the post up so instead of covering it up with the experiences tag, why did you do it. It's a question quite a few people would like to know the answer to.

And Cem, it works both ways regarding Skyline ownership. You mention Guy and Henry as well as yourself and the reason for going Porsche, and some of your reasons are true I agree, but bear in mind it's a two way street and I have heard of tuners that wouldn't take you guys back if you paid double.

My sole and only point is there are always two sides to a situation like this, simple, thats all. But now you've aired it Peter I do agree the way RBM acted would have made me shiver BUT I don't know the reasons behind RBM's actions but still feel kinda odd towards RBM as probably others do. Do you understand where I am coming from?

I also agree that that tuners are somewhat a law unto themselves but until Skylines become a top 20 seller then we will always not have a lot of choice and will have to take what we have got. Well top 20 seller is never going to happen so............................................

Glen


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

JasonO said:


> Glen,
> I think many people missed the intended point of Peters posting.
> 
> He wanted to know if other users of the forum felt that it was wrong of a service provider to send previously paid invoices to his wife.
> ...


Well of course it's wrong thats goes without saying. Unless of course it's right. Confusing ain't it, and pointless.

You still haven't answered me regarding how you get all those quotes in one post  .

Glen


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

No offence to Cem or anyone else helping out on this forum but....

I think people have to put into context what Peter has done. He posted an item on a tin pot web forum that happens to have quite a few people on it. In 2 weeks this thread will disappear into the background and 99% of people will forget it every happened, me included. Anyone researching RBM will come across loads of threads saying how good he is and this one commenting on his customer service. The reader will have a good old laugh and carry on.

If anyone is stupid enough to base their purchasing habits solely off the information put forward in this thread they deserve everything they get. I will use RBM if their price is right and they are convientient. Quite frankly I don't trust mechanics as far as I can throw them anyway.

Just remember guys all this is a forum is, is a couple of webpages where anonymous people can yitter inanely about a lump of metal they drive or want to drive. If people didn't post their interests and experiences there would be nothing on this board but forsale/want ads and "how do I fix my widget" questions. I for one would find it very boring.

So to conclude, thanks Peter, Bladey, Glen and all the rest of you over heated posters for giving me a bit of entertainment in my jet lagged week.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Glen,

I'm really trying hard to resist a 'yawn' reply.. 

Grief, now there's a pertinent word. Sure a load of grief has come about from this in many places, not just here....

I haven't got the stamina to prolong this any more and I'm happy in the knowledge that plenty of people will be glad of that fact. Got work to do, got bills to pay, catchya later.


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

mattb said:


> So to conclude, thanks Peter, Bladey, Glen and all the rest of you over heated posters for giving me a bit of entertainment in my jet lagged week.


Anytime, pleased to be of assistance to you  .

Glen


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Peter said:


> Glen,
> 
> I'm really trying hard to resist a 'yawn' reply..


Of course you are, ssssswwwwwwwwweeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeee
 .

Yeah do some work  .

See Ya.

len


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> Confusing ain't it, and pointless.


I have this overwhelming urge to reply with a *YAWN !*

But I'm not sure if that's this argument, the effects of nightshift, the quote thing, global warming or the fuzzy feeling you get in your toes when you've been sat on the throne for too long.........

....Even more confusing, is I find I'm sat here agreeing with you 

It is confusing, and *we* are making it downright pointless


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> Of course you are, ssssswwwwwwwwweeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeee
> .
> 
> Yeah do some work  .
> ...


See ya Len.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

mattb said:


> ......webpages where anonymous people can yitter inanely


Oi, I do my best to moderate it inanely too


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Good posts by Durzel and Cem.

I have so many stories of good and bad service and of insane repair/upgrade bills that I'd love to share with everyone, but cannot possibly do on the website. I also prefer to remember my GTRs by the high moments which include:

Travelling to the Nurburgring 24hrs the first year with 6 GTRs (me, Cem, Glen, Ronnie, Henry and Ged) in convoy and doing 200mph on the Autobahn with Mark and Warren in the car………..also pulling into Adenau at midnight in 3 blue R34s, through a German village full of car-nuts who'd never even seen a road going GTR……….

Sadly though more time was spent with the lows, including:

Over £75,000 of bills from tuners for repairs/upgrades.
4 blown engines in my R33 and R34 (none built by Abbey by the way)
Owning an R34 that spent a total of 17 months in tuners workshops, while I paid for their development knowledge.
Having a tuner deliver back my R33 after several months, for it to last 3 miles before spinning a bearing and ruining the crank/block etc

Anyway as has been said in earlier posts, it is this that contributed to the reason that so many Skyline Owners have deserted the marque. That said I still miss my R34.

So now a few of us are in the world of Porsche and one of the big reasons is customer service. My car gets collected on the day agreed, the work is started the same day and all problems are covered by warranties. It might not be as quick as the top Skylines over a quarter-mile, but it's a genuine 200+mph car and is devastating on circuits and roads. Most importantly of all though, it is in my garage and ready to use. Yes the car has occasional problems, like any other, but the way they get dealt with is an example of the sort of service that should be expected when dealing with cars and bills of this size.

As an example of Porsche Tuning, I chose to have my car upgraded by Ruf with their 550bhp/580lb ft package, which takes the top speed to about 211mph. The package involves removing the engine to fit new turbos, full exhaust system, new clutch, air filter system, intake manifold and ecu. The power levels are certified by the German Transport ministry (TuV) and the entire engine and drivetrain is warrantied by them for 2 years. I dropped my car with them on a Monday, whilst touring Germany a few months ago and they delivered the car back to me on Thursday at a Hockenheim trackday. The entire process took 3 days only. They also tested the car to an indicated 215mph on the autobahn.

So why is this relevent to this thread? Well recently I had a slight problem with the car and how they dealt with it is a stark contrast to the experiences of many in the GTR world.

I had been driving my car at the Bruntingthorpe runway and at around the 195mph mark, the car was not accelerating as fast as usual, feeling a little down on power. Unsure, I thought I would validate it by running the car at G-Force, where they showed it was making about 520bhp (not the 550bhp+ it should make). I rang Ruf in Germany and told them this. They said 'don't worry, we'll fix it, whatever we have to do". They immediately arranged for a mechanic to fly from Germany to England to examine and test my car a few days later. The mechanic who tested my car worked out that the problem was with the ecu, but could not fix it here in the UK, so asked if it was OK to take the car back to Germany. Having agreed, he immediately drove the car to Germany the same day, instead of flying back. They then immediately removed the engine and re-tested it on one of their engine dynos. Having fixed the problem after a few days they then drove the car back to England in time for TOTB3 (they would have trailered it, but could not arrange in time, as I wanted it back urgently). So basically because my car was 30bhp down on power, they incurred the costs of two flights, two channel crossings, tons of petrol, many days mechanics and dyno labour and all fuel and consumable costs including all parts etc that get replaced when engines are removed - the total charge to me was ZERO. Mrs Ruf even rang me on the day of TOTB3 to check my car was performing to my satisfaction (it certainly was!)

This is one strong reason why I now drive Porsche/Ruf.

I am hoping that the new GTR in a few years is a good one and offers 500bhp as standard, however if I buy one of those it will stay with a main dealer and only go in for services. When it's time for tuning I think I'll have to start up my own professional tuning company as a hobby since Glen seems to suggest we are now unwelcome anywhere!

Guy


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

Guy said:


> When it's time for tuning I think I'll have to start up my own professional tuning company as a hobby since Glen seems to suggest we are now unwelcome anywhere!


Guy, I can recomend a couple of experienced mechanics, one specialises in RWD, the other 4WD.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Wow thats incredible, how can RUF afford to do such wonders!

I never ever wanted a Porsche until you and Henry told me about the extendable warranty etc. when we were at TSC IV. Very impressive, just a shame the 996 is so damn ugly.   I now actually read the Porsche articles in Evo and would even consider buying one someday.

Still that 9ff thing seems pretty stunning - 730bhp 231mph!!


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Guy said:


> Good posts by Durzel and Cem.
> 
> I have so many stories of good and bad service and of insane repair/upgrade bills that I'd love to share with everyone, but cannot possibly do on the website. I also prefer to remember my GTRs by the high moments which include:
> 
> ...


Good post Guy and good reading  .

You were mentioning starting a garage as a hobby sometime ago but i that specislised trade you'd probably have to take a lot of flak unfortunately  .

Glen


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

mattb said:


> Finally, this episode in my mind anyway, highlights how far many tuners have still to go when it comes to customer service and professionalism. I would not dispute their skills as mechanics but I have had a number of experiences with tuners where I leave thinking, "nice guy, no idea about running a company or customer service". From my point of view, I don't care whether you built Keiths superdooper R32, Ronnies all conquering TOTB R33 or built your own 200mph+ R33. I want my fixed, I want an estimate of the costs, a cup of coffee when I turn up and treated with respect. This whole thing of "we need our tuners more than they need us" is bollocks! I am a fcuking customer and expect to be treated with respect. In turn I will pay my bills, recommend your company and treat it with the respect it deserves. Lets face it if Peter was talking about Tesco Insurance we'd all be jumping up and down saying how bad big businesses are and how they have no respect for their customers. Why should tuners, mechanics, parts suppliers etc get treated any differently?


I'm on no one's side really for this & watched it unfold & amongst lots of ranting & raving & dribbling this is the one bit thats right 

I think you hit the nail on the head with that paragraph so accurately, you may have used a lazer guided hammerhead 

The amount of money everyone spends makes it even more important to get this right IMO 

Sadly, (And this isnt specific to any sort of tuner) the UK tuning industry needs to go a long way before this is even close to being an acceptable level


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> And Cem, it works both ways regarding Skyline ownership. You mention Guy and Henry as well as yourself and the reason for going Porsche, and some of your reasons are true I agree, but bear in mind it's a two way street and I have heard of tuners that wouldn't take you guys back if you paid double.


Ah Glen, so much for stirring the hornets nest.

So, what's the above supposed to mean then?

Cem


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

You smell?


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> Ah Glen, so much for stirring the hornets nest.
> 
> So, what's the above supposed to mean then?
> 
> Cem


Don't start on me with that spin  . I've not mentioned any tuners names and am just sharing things I have 'experienced', so if you don't want to know then don't read my posts  . Mind that step   .

Anyway good to hear from you eventually  .

Glen


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Pavlo said:


> You smell?


lmfao.....


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Pavlo said:


> You smell?


     

Glen


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> Don't start on me with that spin  . I've not mentioned any tuners names and am just sharing things I have 'experienced', so if you don't want to know then don't read my posts  . Mind that step   .


Surely you're not going accept such a pi55 poor excuse as that Cem are you?  At least it's nothing 'personal' to Glen, just hearsay....


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Peter said:


> Surely you're not going accept such a pi55 poor excuse as that Cem are you?  At least it's nothing 'personal' to Glen, just hearsay....


Why not, you did  .

It is true that Tony Blair's back from his hols isn't it  .

Glen


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

Case dis-missed * thread locked *


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

R34Nismo said:


> Case dis-missed * thread locked *


Good job and all, well overdue  

Glen


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> I've not mentioned any tuners names.....
> 
> Glen


Glen,

Er, let me think, well I've only ever used 2 Skyline Tuners and one of them doesn't work on GTRs any more as far as I'm aware and no-one ever mentions them on here. 

So that leaves the other one, who everybody knows, who are sponsors here, who me Cem and Henry used and for whom you have taken the role of 'Unofficial Unpaid Chief Spokesperson'............

Talk about pathetic hints........

Guy


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Guy said:


> Glen,
> 
> Er, let me think, well I've only ever used 2 Skyline Tuners and one of them doesn't work on GTRs any more as far as I'm aware and no-one ever mentions them on here.
> 
> ...


  the cheek of it.

Good to see your spinnings still on form (and I don't mean them things on your rims  )

Glen


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Look, why not get a crowd of all of the various tuners 'supporters' and a gang of the people that 'hate' them and have ever felt aggrieved, then you could just have a massive war and kill each other. Atleast the forum might be a cleaner place then 

Sometimes its like the f*ckin* kiddy crusades on this forum


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> Look, why not get a crowd of all of the various tuners 'supporters' and a gang of the people that 'hate' them and have ever felt aggrieved, then you could just have a massive war and kill each other. Atleast the forum might be a cleaner place then
> 
> Sometimes its like the f*ckin* kiddy crusades on this forum


And a lot of them don't even own Skylines  , yeah fcuk this thread.

Ta ta.

Glen


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I like your style Glen - 'Hit and run' - a dirty but effective tactic!


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Doubt this is leading anywhere prophetic, so in the interests of maintaining sanity, I hereby declare this thread closed.

Cem


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