# Stage 4 to 5?



## u116371 (Dec 4, 2011)

Does anyone have a rough idea of the cost to go from stage 4 to 5 with EcuTek?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

About one marriage based on my experience so far.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> About one marriage based on my experience so far.


You have cheap wives.
Cost was about a sixth of a wife to me. :chuckle:
I'm sure assassination would have been cheaper...


OP, give Iain a call.
I was quoted a bit under 9k for 750bhp. Based on how my car is set up.

Not cheap, but a big jump in power with new turbos, better intercooler, downpipes etc...

Very tempting for an extra 140bhp.


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> About one marriage based on my experience so far.


Also very cheap compared to my first marriage !


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

CT17 said:


> You have cheap wives.
> Cost was about a sixth of a wife to me. :chuckle:
> I'm sure assassination would have been cheaper...
> 
> ...


Did you already have the 90mm Exhaust or was that included in the price ?


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

MarcR35GTR said:


> Did you already have the 90mm Exhaust or was that included in the price ?


If you look on Litchfield Imports I have everything listed under stage 1 to 4.


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

CT17 said:


> You have cheap wives.
> Cost was about a sixth of a wife to me. :chuckle:
> I'm sure assassination would have been cheaper...
> 
> ...


Have you or anyone driven a stage 5 yet? I am interested how much more powerful it feels than the Stage 4, and whether low speed manners remain as good.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

CT17 said:


> You have cheap wives.


0h, you've met her?

Joking aside I'm very lucky as she is surprisingly cheap to run. Not interested in material things at all. The downside is that I can't keep her sweet by buying her something when I buy myself something!

Back to the original point, I think CT's value is about right. Do you have stage 4 already? I'm considering a 5 but the jump up is significant for another 120ish bhp.

The thing is the torque isn't going to climb, nor is the low down power. It's going to be all about extending the top end. At the moment I don't tend to find roads big enough to extend the top end so am struggling to work out if it's worth it.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

MarcR35GTR said:


> Have you or anyone driven a stage 5 yet? I am interested how much more powerful it feels than the Stage 4, and whether low speed manners remain as good.


No, bcause if I drove it I'd probably want to buy it.
And as my car is for road use I'm not sure it's really needed. IMO of course. 

I personally don't see the point in the big power GT-R monsters unless you do big events or want to beat your rich mate's Bugatti. :chuckle:
I just potter about in mine.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

CT17 said:


> You have cheap wives.
> Cost was about a sixth of a wife to me. :chuckle:
> I'm sure assassination would have been cheaper...
> 
> ...


I guess that 9K doesnt include any gearbox strengthenin?


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

I don't believe so, but am not 100% sure so I'd suggest calling if you are interested.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

don't think it does.

That would be turbos, intercooler and remapping.

Gearbox strengthening is a good safety net but if not launching the whole time and driving carefully, I'd probably not bother.

As I said above, it's torque thatw ill kill the gearbox, and without going for forged internals (stage ???) you can't confidently increase the torque output due to the limits of the rods.


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> don't think it does.
> 
> That would be turbos, intercooler and remapping.
> 
> ...


What is the torque limits of the existing rods ?


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

I recon I'd need to buy these parts to hit stage 5

- Turbos £4K (can't remember if that was inc VAT)
- twin fuel pumps £360
- circlips £1500
- Labour £720

Total £6580

From memory it cost me about £6K to get to my stage 4 which included AMS FMIC.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

MarcR35GTR said:


> What is the torque limits of the existing rods ?


As much as you are prepared to run. Most people say 600-650.

I've always believed, since andy forest confirmed it to me years back that it's tension in the rods caused by high revs that stresses them more than compression due to running high boost/torque.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Anders_R35 said:


> I recon I'd need to buy these parts to hit stage 5
> 
> - Turbos £4K (can't remember if that was inc VAT)
> - twin fuel pumps £360
> ...


turbos at 4k sounds optimistic to me but then you do already have downpipes fitted. You'll need to add mapping time for the new turbos too.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

I found some info on Turbo Dynamics website £5724 inc VAT for stage 2, 750 - 800bhp.

Nissan GTR R35 : Turbo Dynamics, Turbochargers, Turbosmart & TiAL Sport Performance Products

I'm thought Iain said £4K may be it was £5K.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

So I take it the extortionately priced intercooler and hard pipes are not essential for 720 ish?


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

The bigger turbo's make a massive difference. Everyone keeps chatting on here about it, just get a group buy together!


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Adamantium said:


> As much as you are prepared to run. Most people say 600-650.
> 
> I've always believed, since andy forest confirmed it to me years back that it's tension in the rods caused by high revs that stresses them more than compression due to running high boost/torque.


Excessive torque causes rods to bend and I've seen the results in other cars.

Torque or bad tuning will almost always be the cause of problems in GTRs. Its possible to increase GTR torque by 50-100%, whereas no-one is going to increase the rev-limit more than a small amount from what I've seen so far, if at all in many cases.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Mid range torque is the killer of these motors, we have seen the same problem on the early 350Z DE motors especially when Turbo charging these early N/A cars. The con rods on the early 350Zed where like stick insects.

More boost makes more torque which will increase cylinder pressure's this is what bends con rods , you can tune the torque out of the motors 1, by reducing boost around peak torque ,2, swing the cams around this area to lose torque.

Re lifting RPM , we have been running VQ motors with stock cam chain and gears (minus the Variable inlet cam pullies which are heavy) to RPM for a while , upon stripping the motors we see no extensive wear on any parts. These are big BHP drag motors that don't do any long running but I feel with the correct valve train equipment the VR could have it RPM ceiling limit raised at least 1000/1500rpm.

This extra RPM will make a huge difference to BHP levels and turbo sizing.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Not saying torque isn't going to do damage. Am just saying the stock rods are likely to have more capacity for increased compressive force than tensile stress. An extrac500 rpm makes a huge difference to the tensile load on the rods.

Det will kill any rod so let's assume the mapping doesn't come in to it.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Mark,

Talking about the outputs of the stock engine here.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

I would say I would be more worried about compressive forces than tensile forces on a stock motor

R35GTR's have been seen bending con-rods already.

There again a bent rod is better than a broken con rod


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Been thinking you could limit the mid range torque by fitting bigger turbo's and running a lower boost pressure , the larger turbo's will move more air so making more top end BHP at the expensive of mid range torque which with a stock con roded motor would be a good thing.

Also keeping the boost pressure down will help inlet charge temps as well , so we could run a leaner mixture with a little more ignition timing


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## chrisneeves (Apr 7, 2010)

[email protected] M/S said:


> Been thinking you could limit the mid range torque by fitting bigger turbo's and running a lower boost pressure , the larger turbo's will move more air so making more top end BHP at the expensive of mid range torque which with a stock con roded motor would be a good thing.
> 
> Also keeping the boost pressure down will help inlet charge temps as well , so we could run a leaner mixture with a little more ignition timing


That's the approach iain has taken with mine. I am making the right side of 700 with torque backed off below 600. The response of the billet turbos cancels out any on paper reductions in the mid range you just don't feel it on the road. The big plus side with this approach of running lower boost pressures is as you rightly point out the lower temperatures. Also on the road and track it is so much more tractable with lower mid torque. Wheelspin in 3rd and 4th is great for forum banter but quite frankly a waste of time and money and poor mapping in my view. To put this into perspective last month at the ring I can honestly say no temperature issues with engine oil, in fact I went out in other gtrs running lower spec then me who had higher engine oil temperatures, and in my opinion were driven just as hard as mine. running low boost levels with the right turbos and not chasing the revs to the limiter in every gear keeps temps down, saves rods and blocks and gets you from a to b quicker.

From my limited knowledge of tuning, I think turbo selection by the tuners is perhaps the biggest area of concern if like me you are considering that next jump from 700+ to ?. I know some tuners are making bigger power on the same turbos as me but running them at 1.8 bar which is asking for trouble and completely unnecessary if all of the components are working in harmony. I can't wait to see the influence of abbey with svm, and the Iain litchfield big power red top motors running low boost turbos means a new chapter in gtr tuning. And that's before we even consider the influence of the big power supra boys who seem to be poised to enter the fray.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

excellent post chris.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

yep good post , I was actually thinking of running bigger turbo's than what I have seen fitted to GTR's in the UK.

Chris what sort of boost are you running if you don't mind me asking at the moment?


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

I run mine at 20.5psi normally, Ben has given me a bit more before though 

Not sure who's running 26psi on OEM rods but I'd be very worried about that.


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## u116371 (Dec 4, 2011)

Whats the everyday drivability of stage5? Im running stage 4 and its great in town and on motorway. Just got the bug though for wanting to make it bigger and faster just because you can.


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

Mines not really setup for everyday driving but it drives the same, its just very very loud when you remove all cats, but I love it.


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## u116371 (Dec 4, 2011)

robsm said:


> Mines not really setup for everyday driving but it drives the same, its just very very loud when you remove all cats, but I love it.


So you have no problem tootling around town if need be, in a machine that can deafen people?


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

Nope, no problems.


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

robsm said:


> Mines not really setup for everyday driving but it drives the same, its just very very loud when you remove all cats, but I love it.


Which exhaust have you got, how loud , can you still use it on the tracks ?


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

talking boost pressure isn't the whole story , really need to know the compressor wheel/cover turbo efficiency map so we can work out how much air is being moved then we can work out what sort of boost pressure will make what sort of BHP.


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

MarcR35GTR said:


> Which exhaust have you got, how loud , can you still use it on the tracks ?


Not many tracks, its over 115db+ from memory, older version of GTC exhaust with tiny silencers, if you can even call them that.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

seems to me that you GTR people need a proper exhaust system made for your cars to allow you to run good BHP with a reasonable noise level.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

[email protected] M/S said:


> seems to me that you GTR people need a proper exhaust system made for your cars to allow you to run good BHP with a reasonable noise level.


I thought that was the Millek. 

Safe for all track days, sounds nice and goes to at least 750bhp, probably more...

I'd prefer not to have milltek written on all the exits though, it makes them look scratched IMO.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

I am think something a little more tricker, with some bypass silencers built in controlled via boost pressure or cabin switch, I am think we could make the car sounds nearly stock but give very good bhp levels , we supplied a few early GTR system like this over the year minus bypass silencers thou.


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

[email protected] M/S said:


> seems to me that you GTR people need a proper exhaust system made for your cars to allow you to run good BHP with a reasonable noise level.


That one is meant to be loud with no mufflers, some people like the screamers


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

[email protected] M/S said:


> I am think something a little more tricker, with some bypass silencers built in controlled via boost pressure or cabin switch, I am think we could make the car sounds nearly stock but give very good bhp levels , we supplied a few early GTR system like this over the year minus bypass silencers thou.


Sounds interesting Mark, although I have to say the Milltek does tick the box for me as I'm not that fussy.
I just don't want to get banned from open days and have to listen to a drone at 70mph... other than the Milltek name on the exts of course.


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## chrisneeves (Apr 7, 2010)

[email protected] M/S said:


> yep good post , I was actually thinking of running bigger turbo's than what I have seen fitted to GTR's in the UK.
> 
> Chris what sort of boost are you running if you don't mind me asking at the moment?


1.45 peak, is current peak setup, and gives the nicest most progressive feel on the road, and is completley stable / predictable in terms of traction when on it !


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

u116371 you are welcome to come and have a go in our demonstrator as this will hopefully answer some of your questions and no doubt will lead to a few more 

As I'm sure Chris and others will testify that a Stage 5 turbo car will drive the same if not better around town but will have a huge increase in performance when you need it  We have been constantly developing our turbo conversions and our latest revisions are very good. 

We are fortunate that the GTR turbo sizes fit nicely within the combinations we have been used to working over the years on other makes, where we even invested in having our own custom turbo housings casting with great results  The GTR turbos use our latest Billet Compressor wheels, ball bearing cores and turbine machining to get the best possible combination of spool up and top end flow.










Below is a picture of one of our standard manifolds where we fitted individual EGT Sensors and back pressure monitors so we can see more detail in what is going on within the engine and turbo. 










We also have speed sensors to check the efficiency of the turbos and see how they compare to the theory of the Compressor maps that Mark mentioned.

We have performed a number of Stage 5 conversions over the years and have yet to have any problems with the engines or turbos. As Adam and Mark have mentioned it needs careful selection of parts and setup to insure reliability. 

Mark we have looked at valved systems with Milltek and tried a couple of different designs. One of the cars we took to the Nurburgring the other week had a test system with valves installed but I'm not convinced. It adds quite a bit of cost and complexity, besides I don't think I could handle another Milltek part number for a GTR system as we already have 60 combinations!  

Regards

Iain


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## chrisneeves (Apr 7, 2010)

u116371 said:


> Whats the everyday drivability of stage5? Im running stage 4 and its great in town and on motorway. Just got the bug though for wanting to make it bigger and faster just because you can.


Drives like stock, very driveable. Gavin Roswell, david yu & others has been out with me and can confirm. The dyno charts do show less at the bottom end, but on the road it feels stronger and is completly progressive. But thats more to do with the responsiveness of the ball bearing turbo's and turbine selection.

For Drivability and relaibility i think the below sums up stg 5+

A few weeks ago i used the car all week for work. I then drove to Marham for a day of 30-130 and top speed. I think it was one of the quickest cars which a)did not turn up on a trailer and have a support crew, b)was running pump fuel not race gas, c)did not blow up or catch fire.

i then packed a rucksack, filled her up and drove to Nurburg to assist in Litchfield / forge testing at the ring. did 89 laps GP circuit, 12 norschliefe, then drove back. 1200miles 3 days. no drama, no silly temps for oils either, the following day it was back to school run and commute. My full catless milltek meant no headache after all those miles, and i am doing a 105db airfield track day next week which i will scrape through. So for 700+ hp, with the right setup, perfectly usable for track, speed, acceleration and the school run..

I'm 10,000 hard driven miles on this tune, 22,000miles in total. The facts are my rods might have bent a little but i just dont know. Unlikely though. But to date its been faultless. I have never seen a knock detection on the boost gauge of the MFD either. The level of cost for the next step is considerable, but i am sure with the right setup i will get to my next goal... today my steed for the week is the crappiest hire car hertz could conjure up for me in sao paulo, but when i get back to the uk next week, i will just press the red button, fill up at tesco's and drive the kids to school without a care in the world. On saturday i will then demolish everything in site at a trackday, before heading over to litchfield for a well earned oil change and service.


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

No one needs to hear this....we all need 'its a nightmare, totally undrivable' etc etc to stop us all saving for the next bhp fix! :chuckle: 

I am down at Iains next Monday....need to save for a bit post wedding/honeymoon but some turbos might be the next mod....still fancy the new suspension too though:runaway:


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

So your machining and welding in a new shoulder to the turbo's then I see? HTA billet wheel? what size ;-)

As you have been using IHI on the Subaru's for a while and these fit in the GTR pretty easily you have a lot of knowledge.

EGT's and exhaust pressure and turbo speed sensors are all good , with turbo speed/map and injector duty you can easily work out the output of your motor. I was more talking about just a turbo compressor map Iain.


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

We installed a GT28R with a 71mm FP comp wheel back in 2009 but things have moved on a bit since then 

We used the spec C IHI turbos for a long time as they are basically direct fit on the GTR and work well up to a point but just like our Subaru turbos we knew we'd get better result using the Garrett based cores (hence the weld in ring in the picture). 

All our Subaru turbos since our first Type-25 in 2004 have used Garrett cores because of the limitations of the IHI units (ask the VW boys how many they get through). They started out as modified IHI turbine housings before I bit the bullet and invested in our own twinscroll housing which Turbo Dynamics make for us.

There is a video and details of the housing (if you are interested) on our website along with details of the Billet wheels. 

http://www.litchfieldimports.co.uk/subaru_twin_scroll_turbo.asp

These TD billet compressor wheels flow the same, if not more than, the GTX wheels but have less lag  We have been through a number of versions of these now but their extended tips make it tricky to plot on a conventional compressor map. 

I'll give you a call later in the week 

Regards

Iain


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Iain,

good video, Peter seems to have a few more grey hairs now days thou;

Surprised at the size of your old Comp wheel 71mm and at the boost I have seen car running on seeing around 600/700bhp but if you have the datalogging from the exhaust housing pressure sensor I bet the pressure measure dis up a round the manifold pressure when running a reasonable amount of boost.

Mark


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

chrisneeves said:


> Drives like stock, very driveable. Gavin Roswell, david yu & others has been out with me and can confirm. The dyno charts do show less at the bottom end, but on the road it feels stronger and is completly progressive. But thats more to do with the responsiveness of the ball bearing turbo's and turbine selection.
> 
> For Drivability and relaibility i think the below sums up stg 5+
> 
> ...


that is the best advert for a tuned car ever! However, the bit that sold me was the fact you have had this conversion for 10k miles with no issues. That's very impressive indeed. Now, where is my cheque book.....


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

Stevie76 said:


> No one needs to hear this....we all need 'its a nightmare, totally undrivable' etc etc to stop us all saving for the next bhp fix! :chuckle:
> :


So well said, this is addictive and expensive !! Bit like a drug habit !


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

We been around tuning cars for a while and you never happy with the power for long but it is always to easy to go to far and spoil your car then you don't like driving them....These R35's do seem to still be nice to drive around 600/700bhp thou , I suppose it is the clutch on these modern cars that helps a 700 bhp 32/33/34 GTR wouldn't be as nice on the clutch, twin or triple plate lots of noise.


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

Well said.

Enjoy the lovely Sao Paulo roads! and we complain about the state of ours!



chrisneeves said:


> Drives like stock, very driveable. Gavin Roswell, david yu & others has been out with me and can confirm. The dyno charts do show less at the bottom end, but on the road it feels stronger and is completly progressive. But thats more to do with the responsiveness of the ball bearing turbo's and turbine selection.
> 
> For Drivability and relaibility i think the below sums up stg 5+
> 
> ...


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

chrisneeves said:


> Drives like stock, very driveable. Gavin Roswell, david yu & others has been out with me and can confirm. The dyno charts do show less at the bottom end, but on the road it feels stronger and is completly progressive. But thats more to do with the responsiveness of the ball bearing turbo's and turbine selection.
> 
> For Drivability and relaibility i think the below sums up stg 5+
> 
> ...


Did you go straight to stage 5 or did you progress from stage 4? Interested to know what the jump from 4-5 feels like day to day on the road.

Also what gear box strengthening have you gone for if any?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I thought I'd resurrect this thread as I'm about to make the jump from stage 4 to stage 5 and found myself worrying about around town drivability.

It would seem that that concern might be fairly unjustified based on what I've re-read here.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Will the gearbox comfortably take stage 5 (750bhp) with just a circlip upgrade?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

The torque is no higher, just the revs that it's held to, so I'd think so. We aren't talking mega power here and the gears are pretty substantial.


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## chrisneeves (Apr 7, 2010)

Adamantium said:


> The torque is no higher, just the revs that it's held to, so I'd think so. We aren't talking mega power here and the gears are pretty substantial.


Correct. 16,000 miles on this tune now. Plenty of track and top speed runs. Absolutely no issues what so ever. But no drag races, only dragged on an un prepped air field surface. If you follow nagtroc it seems that drag racing and abusing your car with launches at every opportunity kills gear box's. Certainly at 700+ hp and 600 ish torque with daily use and regular track work has not resulted in any problems.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

16,000 miles on a 750bhp car makes for impressive stats.

As blade said previously, that speaks volumes of the quality of the modification. we are talking a 50% power hike over stock used everyday.

It's astounding that this level of power of car has not become a garage queen. I wish that I'll have the opportunity to do so much mileage in mine, but I doubt it will happen.

Very very impressed!


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