# Understeer...



## willgts (Jul 17, 2004)

Hi guys, this is my first post since buying my first GTR just 2 weeks ago.

I have had a little time driving it now and getting used to the beast!

Obviously I am blown away by its sheer power and all the other amazing things about the car but I have noticed now as I push the car that understeer happens very quickly and quite badly, especially at lower speeds.

I have it booked into my local HPC tomorrow for a check over as I bought it privately and want peace of mind. Is the understeer something I should mention to them or is it something inherent to the GTR?

Just for a bit of colour, the car is a 59 plate with original Dunlops on it (4mm-5mm tread) and 11k miles.

If understeer is inherent, what are peoples methods of dialling it out?

Thanks in advance!


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## Marky_GTSt (Dec 31, 2005)

Do you feel its handling differently to when you first got it ? or are you just pushing it harder now ?

If the handling has changed then definitely mention it, Mention it anyway and they might feel inclined to have a quick poke about while under there... Just to be safe.


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## AndyBrew (Feb 2, 2011)

The GT-R will understeer like a bitch if you push it beyond the limits of it's traction, its designed that way to be safe for the general populous.

To dial it out a little bit set the VDC to race, this will give you a bit more wiggle, to dial it out completely turn it off, then its up to you to keep it facing the right way ;-)

Alternatively slow down a tadge find the limit of its grip and bob's your uncle.


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

Slow in and fast out. The car inherently understeers, but patience is rewarded when you feed the power in. Practise makes perfect.

If the understeer is getting worse or you believe it to be dangerous then get it checked immediately. Original Dunlop's at 11k miles is in my opinion virtually impossible unless it has been driven just to the shops and back. Normal wear would be maximum 9,000 miles. Are you sure that the inner edge of the rears and the outer edge of the fronts are still OK. Also check pressures as they should be 31psi all round.


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## willgts (Jul 17, 2004)

Thanks for responses guys. I think the car has been poodled to the shops and back its entire life as the tyres still look to have ok tread, last service was in December and said 4-5 mm tread and less that 1000miles on it since then. It was whilst in 'R' mode that I noticed the understeer.

The car hasn't gotten any worse, its more that I am progressively pushing it more as I get used to it. I just noticed that it pushes past the limits of adhesion pretty quick on the front.

I am more than open to the possibility that the problem is in the drivers seat! But just wanted to get a gauge from other owners to see what your experiences were.

The tyre pressures are sitting at 29 on the front and 31 on the back (not set by me), I would have thought this would have been better for reducing understeer?


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

They do show their weight and tend to wash out with under steer at lower speeds. Apparently ARBs help cure this, but i haven't got round to fitting them yet.......have a search


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## GRowsell (Feb 6, 2007)

As mentioned, the standard set up does tend to understeer at low-medium speeds, but with uprated anti-roll bars it becomes much more neutral.

Mine is now so crisp/tight on turn-in that it feels like a complete geometry change, but it's just thicker anti-roll bars.

As also mentioned, if you turn off the traction control, then you have yourself as much oversteer as you could ever want...but you'd still need uprated anti-roll bars to get the crisp turn-in.


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

I've asked Mizuno San about this a couple of times now and officially the car doesn't understeer

There is just a tendency to carry too much speed into the twistees, lol

Slow in, (very) fast out, as has been said

And a good reason why tracking a GTR informs road style.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Get your HPC to set up the geometry to track settings, i.e. as much negative camber on the front as they can. Makes a massive difference.

I've always had my car on track setting and not had an issue with uneven tyre wear or excessive tramlining.

Litchfield are about to start selling their uprated suspension kit with different shocks, springs and rear anti-roll bar, but retaining the standard 3 position switch for shock stiffness. Will report back on it when it's fitted to my car, but it's primary purpose is to reduce/eliminate understeer.

2011-onwards models understeer less than earlier models.


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## NiallGTR (Aug 30, 2009)

Tyre tread isn't the whole story with rubber. Any tyre has a certain number of heat cycles in it before it's past its best. Good tread depth doesn't always mean good grip. I speak as the previous owner of a Corvette Z06. Rear tyres on that car could still have 3/4mm of tread and be utterly useless after 6000 miles. Obviously with an AWD car they'll last longer than that but worth thinking about.


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

willgts said:


> Hi guys, this is my first post since buying my first GTR just 2 weeks ago.
> 
> I have had a little time driving it now and getting used to the beast!
> 
> ...


Your car is almost like mine although mine is twice the mileage. I also noticed the understeer although I am suspecting poor road surface and condition. My rears are new and front around 5mm. However the PSI on all wheels are different so I will sort that out this weekend to see if it makes any diff.


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## Frosty (Aug 9, 2001)

"If you experience understeer in a car, 90% of the time it's driver induced" is what a race instructor once told me. He then proceeded to show me the same corner being taken twice - once with loads of understeer, once with oversteer. All just down to input. The car certainly did not change between the laps.

I find the GT-R is quite susceptible to driving style. Some people are extremely digital when it comes to driving fast. By that I mean not smooth, and very "on off" with their inputs (steering, throttle, and brake).

I have always found the GT-R because of it's weight does not like to be driven like an Evo or a Subaru. It likes to settle into corners progressively, so that means smoothing out your inputs, carrying speed, and using the power. Going into a roundabout hard, and then steering suddenly will provoke understeer.

Try and smooth the driving out as much as you can, and the car is so much more rewarding IMO.

Also, unless you corner really hard, the GT-R tends to just run on the inside of it's tyres and they wear quickly. This can cause understeer when these get low. Just corner harder, which will stand the tyre up more in the corners and work witht he camber.


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## GRowsell (Feb 6, 2007)

Frosty said:


> .... a race instructor once told me....


An instructor many years ago told me " you're braking too hard and driving like it's a race ".

It was only my 2nd driving lesson on L plates though 

Genuinely though, there are many inherantly understeering cars, although most don't go on track for that reason! Although I've driven Subaru's that were terrible for understeer.

I've also driven cars that are transformed on track from lairy oversteering drift machines, into something that feels like it's on rails as it's so neutral, into an initially understeering car... all in the same car, same day on the same track, merely by changing to different sized tyres (both sets were Toyo 888) and also playing with pressures.


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Arbs dial this right out and with the TC set on race it's the rear end you will be worrying about:thumbsup:


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

is that just front ARB`s that is required then?
who sells them? what make?

what degree of camber do people run? - whats the difference between "road" and "track"?

cheers


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

nick the tubman said:


> is that just front ARB`s that is required then?
> who sells them? what make?
> 
> what degree of camber do people run? - whats the difference between "road" and "track"?
> ...


No just the rear Nick to dial out some of the understeer unless you want to fit a pair ... nice to see you today BTW


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Eibach seem to be popular and well priced. SVM and Litchfield sell them amongst others.

Litchfield include the Eibach rear ARB as part of their suspension kit.


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## Grimblin Gibbon (Jul 16, 2009)

I would suggest one of the best things to do is to take a cat performance driver day or over grip handling day at millbrook and then you will learn just what you and the car can do!

Went on mine last October and since then have had no problems with understeer!


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

Grimblin Gibbon said:


> I would suggest one of the best things to do is to take a cat performance driver day or over grip handling day at millbrook and then you will learn just what you and the car can do!
> 
> Went on mine last October and since then have had no problems with understeer!


Very good advise :thumbsup:


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Grimblin Gibbon said:


> I would suggest one of the best things to do is to take a cat performance driver day or over grip handling day at millbrook and then you will learn just what you and the car can do!
> 
> Went on mine last October and since then have had no problems with understeer!


CAT day is highly recommended.

But summer tyres on wet roads at 1-2*C....tyres will slip.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

I recently took a CAT training day and I know why my car understeers.
It was because I tended to go into corners a little bit too fast.

It's better now.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

obviously speed is the issue. 
however, 
ARB`s will improve the understeer and the deal RB motorsport are offering is terrfic and he will also do the camber alignment at the same time, so i have booked mine in for this upgrade.

thanks Arcam, good to see you too - always a good laugh mate.


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

nurburgringgtr said:


> Slow in and fast out. The car inherently understeers, but patience is rewarded when you feed the power in. Practise makes perfect.
> 
> If the understeer is getting worse or you believe it to be dangerous then get it checked immediately. Original Dunlop's at 11k miles is in my opinion virtually impossible unless it has been driven just to the shops and back. Normal wear would be maximum 9,000 miles. Are you sure that the inner edge of the rears and the outer edge of the fronts are still OK. Also check pressures as they should be 31psi all round.


Is it not 29 PSI all round?? Or is that for the new tyres..? Will consult my manual shortly.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

ROG350Z said:


> Is it not 29 PSI all round??.


Yes, it is for my MY10.


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

ROG350Z said:


> Is it not 29 PSI all round?? Or is that for the new tyres..? Will consult my manual shortly.


I could be wrong Rog but you could be right with the 'Neolithic' MY10 - only joking!


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

nurburgringgtr said:


> I could be wrong Rog but you could be right with the 'Neolithic' MY10 - only joking!


Blah blah what was that noise.....oh probably my bell housing again huh ;-)

Gorgeous weather today and had a long way home blast (Focus ST complete with Chav girlfriend obviously mapped badly with lots of popping and smoke but quick gave me some amusement for 300 metres or so). Have to say that once I got tyres up to 35/36 all round there was still no grip - odd so I started playing and backing right off into corner - going in on trailling throttle and pushing harder through and out and oh dear god it was twitchy still (0 degrees outside). Sooo much fun though and so different to anything else on the road hehe


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

I also found the car very twitchy today but loads of fun. The temp was about 4c but the roads seem to have a residual slime on them and the tyre pressures when from about 30 all round to about 32 on rear and 31 at the front. 

The car never ceases to amaze me as I managed to get a corner totally wrong (ran out of talent again) but the car forgave me even in R-C-R mode and it just dug in and no one noticed apart from my rear valve.

The Dunlop's still need a bit of warmth and could do with a bit more tread, but I was pleased I didn't have Bridgestone's fitted.


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## Millwallmart (Jan 17, 2012)

nurburgringgtr said:


> Also check pressures as they should be 31psi all round.


mine say 27?


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

nurburgringgtr said:


> I also found the car very twitchy today but loads of fun. The temp was about 4c but the roads seem to have a residual slime on them and the tyre pressures when from about 30 all round to about 32 on rear and 31 at the front.
> 
> The car never ceases to amaze me as I managed to get a corner totally wrong (ran out of talent again) but the car forgave me even in R-C-R mode and it just dug in and no one noticed apart from my rear valve.
> 
> The Dunlop's still need a bit of warmth and could do with a bit more tread, but I was pleased I didn't have Bridgestone's fitted.


Yep if price disparity keeps falling (Bridgies now £1500 ish and NHPC if you argue hard undwer £2K for Dunlops then I would definately go back as they just feel slightly more 'right' not that I have any complaints about Bridgies.

Interesting to see what price/performance the Super Sports have when we eventually can get them - Kwik Fit will carry Michelin so could be interesting to see where they sit in price point on 4 for 3 deals.


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## Protegimus (Aug 31, 2011)

Congratulations on the GT-R willgts.
Check your pressures nitrogen or not cold pressure still varies a surprising amount. Definitely mention it to the dealer so they consider tyres/suspension when checking it over.

Not to say you won't in future, but I wouldn't do anything to the suspension initially as temperature (weather) plays a massive part in performance of the Summer tyres, not to mention road conditions. Until you've had a chance to drive it in good conditions you may not get to appreciate the difference and true character, albeit as stated it is set up to understeer - I notice the same as you gently pulling away on a roundabout and turning right, whereas it was a much better balance when the weather was warmer last September.

Protegimus 



willgts said:


> Hi guys, this is my first post since buying my first GTR just 2 weeks ago.
> 
> I have had a little time driving it now and getting used to the beast!
> 
> ...


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## Eric Laybourne (Apr 27, 2009)

David.Yu said:


> Get your HPC to set up the geometry to track settings, i.e. as much negative camber on the front as they can. Makes a massive difference.
> 
> I've always had my car on track setting and not had an issue with uneven tyre wear or excessive tramlining.
> 
> ...


David - I'd be interested in feedback of the Litchfield kit when you have had the chance to assess it...


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Eric Laybourne said:


> David - I'd be interested in feedback of the Litchfield kit when you have had the chance to assess it...


+1


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

the arb's made a difference but the CAT driver training made more....

its amazing what the car can do


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## willgts (Jul 17, 2004)

I think a mixture of everything suggested sounds good.

Whilst I was getting stage 1 at Litchfield, Iain reiterated that my tyres were nearly shot. So a set of new Bridgestones or Michelins (price dependant) will be going on soon. I was also looking at the rear anti roll bars. I have had Whiteline on a few of my cars and really like their stuff. Has anyone got experience with their 20mm rear bar? I think I will go for that and adjust it to suit. I have always found the larger bars to be more benficial. But not so sure with the GT-R.


I have booked first trackday for April. So need to get the driver training in before then once new boots and ARB are on.

Thanks for all the input guys!


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## CATDT (Feb 20, 2007)

willgts said:


> I have booked first trackday for April. So need to get the driver training in before then once new boots and ARB are on.


FYI we're rather busy .... suggest if you'd like to get a date with CAT for a 1-2-1 before April we start talking soon .... 

Had been hoping to offer a group training event for this time of year as in previous years, but due to volume of bookings, it's looking like May or June will be the earliest I can now offer. I will do my best to get a group option on the forum in the next couple of weeks 

Jo


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