# GT-R vs Audi RS4 real world experience



## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

Did a drive to Narusawa Golf Club yesterday in Fuji with my mate in his 07 RS4.

We did a few little tests like acceleration through the gears, off the line, handling etc. I've noticed that the GT-R really pitches a lot on unsmooth highway bends. This is to do with the suspension tuning. Even in R mode it still pitched around a lot and felt a little unstable. I think Eibach progressive springs would probably solve this problem. My mate said he could see the car was bobbing around a fair bit, did not look "hunkered down". So, need better springs.

No problems with acceleration whatsoever, he was completely blown away and very depressed.

Heavy braking into a very slow slightly dirty corner caused all sorts of problems. Car started sliding and I had all manner of lights flashing at me. This is not completely a problem with the GT-R, more likely the dirty surface BUT the runflats are not too good when they're really hot and I had been cooking them. Also the brakes did not seem to be able to cope with the sheer weight of the car. I'm more and more convinced after this and the track session at Fuji that I need to put Pagid Yellows on the car. I'd also like some decent R rubber on the car but that's not going to happen unless I change the wheels so will not happen. Will change the pads and see where that takes me. I did manage to correct the car but my passenger said he'd have lost it into the barrier and was not sure how I managed to keep it under control. I'm also hoping the spring upgrade will help with the braking too.

This leads me to the crashed R35s that we've been seeing. This is a super heavy, stupidly fast car with a lot of electronics. What it can do is make an average driver do some pretty spectacular stuff. What is CANNOT do is teach an average driver how to defy the laws of physics. I can now fully understand how people have crashed the car under braking on public roads. It's just too much car to be driven all out. The back really wanted to be in front when I stomped on the brakes. On the circuit though I had no such problems because it was so the surface is so smooth and so clean.

My mate had no such problems in his RS4. Car was very stable under braking.

This car should be treated with loads of respect. Don't get in it and think you can be a racing driver because of all the electronics. Most of the reviews have taken place on closed circuits in controlled environments. On the public road though this can be a very different beast. It's heavy, long and powerful. Taming it under braking will require some very good driving.

So, beware. Quite a few have been smashed up now and I think all of them were under braking if you look at the pictures. I have not seen any side on impacts yet.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

makes sense. Truth be told, its been a long time since I've driven an Audi, but my first car was an ur-quattro, and although the damned thing had the world's worst understeer, it was unstoppable in bad weather. Snow, ice, didn't matter, nothing could keep that car off the road.

I spoke yesterday with the guy that took delivery of the first R35 in Korea. He has an extensive collection of cars (9ff tuned 911, Enzo, among others) and raved about the transmission and quick acceleration (ECU done by Amuse). But it is not light. Big and heavy. He sells exotics and I've been looking casually into getting myself into a Murcielago, which is why I went to his shop. Ironically, he strongly suggested I wait to pick up an R35 (LHD models arriving in Korea in a few months), although he could have done a hard sell on the Lambo and make a sale right there. Really nice guy, very young (about 30), and was the guy who took on the JUN Supra with his Enzo to try to take the wangan crown...and lost. Not much of a salesman, but a true car nut and really felt I'd be happier in an R35 than a Lambo. It's a rare car salesman that reads a person a tries to match them with the car that would make them happiest - no doubt his profit margin on a Murcielago is much higher than getting me an R35 for the equiv of 50K pounds sterling ($100,000USD).


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## GT-R Cowboy (Apr 4, 2008)

tokyogtr said:


> Heavy braking into a very slow slightly dirty corner caused all sorts of problems. Car started sliding and I had all manner of lights flashing at me. This is not completely a problem with the GT-R, more likely the dirty surface BUT the runflats are not too good when they're really hot and I had been cooking them. Also the brakes did not seem to be able to cope with the sheer weight of the car. I'm more and more convinced after this and the track session at Fuji that I need to put Pagid Yellows on the car. I'd also like some decent R rubber on the car but that's not going to happen unless I change the wheels so will not happen. Will change the pads and see where that takes me. I did manage to correct the car but my passenger said he'd have lost it into the barrier and was not sure how I managed to keep it under control. I'm also hoping the spring upgrade will help with the braking too.


This sounds spot on with the reviews and videos that have been piling up. On the bright side, if you compare the video in the "Powerhouse Amuse" posting on this board with most video footage of stock R35's, you will see a noticeable difference in the handling through turns. Looks like a little suspension modding goes a long way on the GTR.

Cowboy


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

this is an excellent post guys and certainly a warning to us all - this car needs maximum respect!! - i really appreciate your honesty and fact based analysis of your car tokyogtr - i await your next instalment with eagerness.


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## JimmyNeutron (Mar 26, 2008)

Thanks, excellent report.

It seems to confirm something that I read a while ago. Namely that the major challenge of the final development year of the GT-R was solving extreme nevervousness under hard breaking. Looks like it has not been completely solved.

You mention that the car bobs quite a bit. Is it simliar to a 997 in that regard?

One other question: apart from the acceleration advantage, was the GT-R significantly superior to the RS4 as a real world point to point machine and is it more fun to drive on the road?

Thanks


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

yes, similar to the 997 in the bobbing. i think it's because they don't use very good progressive springs. if the car had progressives then it wouldn't happen. it's a lot of car and it needs a lot of suspension. they did what they could to make the car come in at budget but to make it a lot better only needs an extra US$10k i reckon. i think the shocks are pretty good but the car obviously sits too high. so, lower the car, put good progressives on and you should be ok.

as for RS4 vs GT-R, the RS4 sounds heaps better. what a great engine that car has. is it more fun on the road though? yes. it's a more raw experience because of the manual gearbox. the DSG makes the GT-R too easy. sorry to disappoint.

BUT, the GT-R kicks the living crap out of the RS4 for balls out performance. my mate was still shifting from 2nd to 3rd when i was in 4th and pulled 100 yards on him!!!


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

i'm wondering whether nissan have taken on board comments and findings like your own tokyogtr, and hence the assorted little tweaks to the european spec cars - i've specifically heard mention of tweaks to suspension and handling, perhaps based on practical feedback from owners like yourself??


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

supracat said:


> i'm wondering whether nissan have taken on board comments and findings like your own tokyogtr, and hence the assorted little tweaks to the european spec cars - i've specifically heard mention of tweaks to suspension and handling, perhaps based on practical feedback from owners like yourself??


From what has been said by Nissan it would appear that they are indeed tweaking the susp etc based on current owners. They are especially keen to get the US and Euro cars 100% correct. I reckon the Japanese release was so early mainly to allow this "customer testing" to take place and feed back into the US/Euro cars.


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

certainly good news indeed if tokyogtr's experiences is anything to go by!


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

it would certainly explain the sudden massive performance improvement at the ring. the first time was with the JDM version. i think the new time is with all the tweeks aka Euro version. JDM version will be getting these tweeks too so i'm still hopeful of getting the stock geometry and springs changed by the HPC.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

hell, if/when I buy an R35, it's getting full race springs. Hopefully someone's already got them out or is working on them. The ride in my R32 will knock your teeth fillings out, and I'd expect nothing less from any other GT-R


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

Actually I do not believe the massive improvements we saw on the new Ring time are due to the suspension/mount changes alone.

As was remarked in the overlay of Zonda vs GTR (7:38) videos, the GTR and Zonda were pretty much neck and neck (faster even in some bends) UNTIL it got to the 2 wet spots. The Zonda (on a dry track) continued accelerating, while the GTR braked through those spots, losing valuable time. 

So the new suspension mounts and settings may account for some of the improvement, but I don't think it accounts for all of it.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

quite possible too. definitely improvements to be made though, which is to be expected. i've seen the mine's car in action and it blows the stock car away so i might just leave it to mine's to tune my car with the correct parts.


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

have you any idea what parts the Mines car replaces suspension wise?, or is it the lot?


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

shocks, springs and roll bars. kanzen is best to describe it though.


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## First (Apr 21, 2008)

Tokyogtr, does the Mines suspension kit with the springs give a better ride and reduce the so called nervousness under heavy brakings? 

It would be pointless for me to get it for better handling if it worsens the ride further. It's already harsh enough for me with the road here.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

from what i've been told, yes. i intend to take the mine's car out for a test drive. my buddy in his rs4 spoke to me about what he saw looking at my car. said it looked very nervous, lots of bobbing about and under braking was veering alot. that also happens because the car tramlines like a SOAB.

the more i drive the car on fast sections of road with long bends, the more i feel how unsettled the car is. it just refuses to hunker down and hold it's position and this is almost exclusivley down to the springs and shocks. 

you can tell this version of the car was designed pretty much exclusively for the circuit. on smooth surfaces it's fantastic. i had no problems on fuji speedway even under braking (except for the fading brakes).


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

definitely sound as if you need the handling tweaks or a different setup mate - cant believe Nissan would want, let alone expect their new supercar to have those sort of on-road handling characteristics.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

i don't think it was designed to be driven at those speeds on public roads. remember, it's limited to 180kph in stock form so that was all they were obligated to test it at.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

there's a jap video somewhere of the stock car being driven at a circuit, then swapping out the suspension for amuse or mines. on that vid the driver immediately says these guys should teach nissan a thing or two about correct suspension setup.

if someone can find that vid please post it.


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

tokyogtr said:


> i don't think it was designed to be driven at those speeds on public roads. remember, it's limited to 180kph in stock form so that was all they were obligated to test it at.


you're right, i was forgetting the speed limiters you have out there.


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

yes, would really appreciate seeing that vid. - this reminds me of my scooby P1. stock suspension was fine, but at higher speeds the car had a tendency to bounce a bit. - i replaced with Tein suspension and assorted Whiteline mods, and wow, what a difference.... back-end just does not move at all and really hunkers down - i used to think my old lotus elan se handled like a go-kart but the P1 is certainly there now.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

found it, and it was amuse.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/93184-best-motoring-amuse-gt-r.html

[Tsuchiya]The suspension on this car is awesome. Wow this is a good car. I want to teach the Nissan guys about this car's suspension, the way the car handles, how the car turns in and how it settles down... if I worked at Amuse I'd try to sell this setup to Nissan. The Amuse GT-R is really easy to handle, its so different from the normal GT-R. Its pliant, safe, and fun to drive.

And here's the Mine's one which was much earlier but lapped .3 secs slower than the amuse. still, 2 seconds faster than stock.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/92069-mines-r35-laps-tsukuba-59-367-a.html?highlight=mines+gt-r


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

Excellent!! - thanks Tokyogtr and Chuck for originally posting.

GTR looks so flat round the bends and incredibly stable with this set-up. - makes you wonder why is wasn't std kit???


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## Kanzen (Aug 2, 2007)

Mine's offer both a street kit and a circuit kit, both of which use SACHS shocks and Eibach springs. These were developed after testing on the road and various circuits such as Tsukuba and Fuji Speedway.
The street kit is 2-way adjustable, and the circuit 3-way, both with a choice of spring rates.

There's also an Eibach spring kit available for use with the standard shocks to improve the ride.

First - It depends what you want to use the car for as to what suspension changes they recommend. If you're looking to change then feel free to drop me a mail and we'll discuss the best setup for you.

Tokyogtr - So what are your plans for the car? Are you looking to improve it for the road or make it more track orientated?

BTW there should be a few of us at Fuji on the 30th May. Friday, no morning lesson and 6 NS-4 sessions so should be a lot quieter....


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

kanzen, i want to make it more stable on the road as track days will be few and far between for me. looks like the mine's street kit is the best option but as it's so expensive i'd rather try a spring change first to see the difference.

cannot make 30th may as am away that weekend.


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## Kanzen (Aug 2, 2007)

tokyogtr said:


> kanzen, i want to make it more stable on the road as track days will be few and far between for me. looks like the mine's street kit is the best option but as it's so expensive i'd rather try a spring change first to see the difference.
> 
> cannot make 30th may as am away that weekend.


Look forward to reading your impressions, as you're the only guy I know that is changing parts, pushing the car and giving feedback...

I'm talking to Mine's about suspension at the moment. Nakayama-san is going to set mine up for Fuji, although I need to compromise as I still need to use it on the road. Not much though, I pretty much drive to/from Mine's, Costco and Fuji


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

I'm hoping to go to Mine's this weekend if the CAT is ready so could meet you there. and then go to costco...


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## First (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks for the replies Tokyogtr and Kanzen. 

Tokyogtr: How long was the bend you mention and how dirty and bumpy is it? And at what speeds are you entering the bend before braking? 

Kanzen: My 35 would entirely be driven on the street road only. No circuits for me at all as I dont intend to either. It has to has the best of street handling and yet a bearable ride comfort without compromising much of the cornering handling or increasing the boat like feel. I have been studying about Mines suspension for a while and couldn't really differeriate between the Street (II) and Circuit (III) suspension. The cost is really expensive I would have to say. The road conditions here are average. With occassional bumps and many small road imperfections. Driving a highly damp without much spring travels set up here would really throw the car everywhere. It would be more like jumping around. How would you recommend the suspension setup to be like in this kind of situation? And also would just changing the stock spring with Mine's Eibach spring improve the handling by a margin in this kind of road conditions? I dont drive my car in circuit but I drive my car really hard on the street public road on normals day. From where I'm from, I could do that without safety concerns as the traffic here is laughable compare to big cities like London or Tokyo. 

Now after watching that video, I am also interested in the Amuse kit. I just couldn't believe this would be an issue with the R35. Perhaps the car is just too hardcore for me to appreciate at this point or has it got nothing to do with its hardcoreness and truly Nissan has flopped in this respect?


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

oh that bend was a fairly sharp left hander with a 40kph speed limit. i was doing about 4 times that when i stomped on the brakes. the road was not that dirty, more it was the imperfections in the road unsettling the balance of the car. if it's not dead smooth then the car will find every nook and cranny there is. it tramlines extremely badly too.

that's only a small piece of the problem though. in long sweeping bends on the motorway doing in excess of 180kph the car is unstable. it pitches back and forth.


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## Kanzen (Aug 2, 2007)

Where are you First?

Mine's will recommend the Spec II for street use. The biggest difference between the two is that the Spec III also has the attenuation control for speed adjustment. Not really necessary unless you want to fine tine them for the circuit.

I suspect the replacement springs will prove to be popular due to the cost of the full kits. I don't have any tech details of the springs to hand though, but can find out.

Tokyogtr - Sounds good. Let me know what time you're going, I need to see if they can squeeze me in for an oil change...


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## FiLi (Jan 25, 2008)

Kanzen and tokyogtr, thanks alot for the info and feedbacks.


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## First (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks for the info Tokyogtr. 

Kanzen: I'm in Malaysia. Are you an exporter for Mines in this region as well? It is really tough time for me to communicate with them over here as you understand the language problem. 

Could you get some data's or infos on the Eibach springs and how much it would improve the stock suspension thus improving perhaps the handling and the ride? I might be asking Mines engineer to fly over here though as there's 5 to 6 cars here wanting the VXRoms purely for speed delimit.

Meanwhile as for me, I would be requesting 0.2bar of boost increase from the VXrom with the Titatium mufflers. Hoping to hit perhaps 550hp to 580hp with it and yet maintains drivability. Hopefully rumours of the DSG gearbox are not true.


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## Kanzen (Aug 2, 2007)

First said:


> Thanks for the info Tokyogtr.
> 
> Kanzen: I'm in Malaysia. Are you an exporter for Mines in this region as well? It is really tough time for me to communicate with them over here as you understand the language problem.
> 
> ...


I sell worldwide with the exception of the US, and have shipped parts to Malaysia before.

Sure, I'll have a chat with them about the springs for you.

A cheaper option for the delimit would be to ship the ECU's to me here in Japan. I will then arrange the VX-ROM's and return them to you within a week of receipt by insured air mail. Full instructions are provided in English so either yourself or any competent garage can install them. 

For that number, I would also be able to offer a discount. 

Mine's won't provide a VX-ROM with more than a 0.1-0.2bar boost increase though. They strongly recommend not to increase boost any more than this.
In a couple of days I'll have a Titan II exhaust in stock and ready to ship...

You can mail me at [email protected] if you would like to discuss this further.


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## GT-R Cowboy (Apr 4, 2008)

supracat said:


> Excellent!! - thanks Tokyogtr and Chuck for originally posting.
> 
> GTR looks so flat round the bends and incredibly stable with this set-up. - makes you wonder why is wasn't std kit???


Ship a supercar into the market that grabs the world's attention for $70K (USD), turn the tuners and gearheads loose on suspension, boost, ecu, exhaust, brakes etc. and what do you have? The perfect high end tuner car. Or if you are not into DIY, wait for the Spec V. 

Sounds like a perfect strategy by the Nissan dudes that are in charge of a brand called Skyline GTR?


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## First (Apr 21, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Kanzen. I will email you. 

Regards, 

JL


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