# Dyno on my 59 Lichfield Stage 2.5



## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Guys

As I have mentioned in some other threads I had my existing Stage 2 map further tweeked by Iain Litchfield a couple of weeks ago and I immediately felt quite a jump using my (large) seat of the pants dyno.

I decided to book a date with Charlie @ Surrey Rolling Road who is well known to run a very accurate Dyno Dynamics machine and is one of the few who know how to dyno the R35 properly (as Rich and David Yu already know).

When I arrived he asked me what state of tune the car had so i told him - Ecutek Stage 2 with recently released further tweeks, Milltek Y pipe and rear section and K&N filters - he said he has run about 20 Stage 2's of both ECUTEK and COBB and expected between 575 - 590 bhp.

So the result:

Peak power: 602.7bhp @ 5700 to 5900 rpm

Peak torque: 620.0lb/ft @ 3900 rpm

Highest figures he has seen for a stage 2 car - CHUFFED!!:chuckle:

Congrats Iain:bowdown1:

David


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## bcl (Apr 28, 2011)

Good result.
Can you please post the graphs of power, torque and boost so we can review.
Thanks,
Brian


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

sumo69 said:


> Guys
> 
> As I have mentioned in some other threads I had my existing Stage 2 map further tweeked by Iain Litchfield a couple of weeks ago and I immediately felt quite a jump using my (large) seat of the pants dyno.
> 
> ...


Nice figures David.

What makes up the Stage 2 / 2.5? Guessing it's a cat-back zorst, custom map & filters?


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## LEO-RS (Mar 18, 2011)

Good figures, but where is your shift point? With peak power being delivered so early are you not short shift changing, early 6k?

Dyno plot would help


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## Titanium GTR (Sep 27, 2009)

I had stage 3 Litchfield and made 601.5bhp and 660 ftibs torque and only difference between stage 2 and 3 are the type intakes I think. K&N stage 2 and forge ones in stage 3. 

Your bhp was nearly identical but why is the torque down so much??? Only the intakes different??? I also had my car dynoed by Charlie at Surrey rolling roads.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Wow, good figures from Charlie's RR (which is one of the more conservative ones).

Tuning really has come on leaps and bounds.
James, you can't compare different readings done on different days, unless yours was also done at Charlie's on a similar condition day.

Most tuners are keeping torque below 650 to preserve the rods.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Stage 3 runs 1.3 to 1.4 bar which is 0.1 bar higher (or 8%) so more boost gave you 40lbs (or 6.5%) more pulling power - quite surprised your power figure wasn't higher!

It was quite warn yesterday as well so a cold day may produce more turbo grunt!

I should add that Iain said he could give more on a Stage 2 by increasing injector flow as long as I wasn't going to drive the car at above 150mph but as I may well do so I said to leave the tune safe for those speeds.

D


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

LEO-RS said:


> Good figures, but where is your shift point? With peak power being delivered so early are you not short shift changing, early 6k?
> 
> Dyno plot would help


Car wouldn't go past 6100 on the rollers without changing gear, even in R mode!

Charlie believes this didn't matter as the power line had started to drop below 600 at this point, though it would have been nice to be sure!

D


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

w8pmc said:


> Nice figures David.
> 
> What makes up the Stage 2 / 2.5? Guessing it's a cat-back zorst, custom map & filters?


Yes as stated in my post.

The map has had some further adjustments to the Stage 2 - slightly increased boost higher in the rev range, 99% wastegate cycle, amended valve timing, earlier spool up of turbos come to mind.

I am not a techie on these matters so you can always ask Iain for more info.

Have you dyno'd yours Paul?

David


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

sumo69 said:


> Yes as stated in my post.
> 
> The map has had some further adjustments to the Stage 2 - slightly increased boost higher in the rev range, 99% wastegate cycle, amended valve timing, earlier spool up of turbos come to mind.
> 
> ...


I did a few months back, when i was at stage 2ish (GTC Tune & Titan cat-back/"Y" pipe. Got just over 595bhp & 593lbsft. Since then i've added 1000cc Injectors, GTC Intakes, SVM Bumper Intakes & a new Custom Tune so my gut feel is around 630bhp now.

Was booked on the CPR rolling road day a few weeks back but as you'll have read, it didn't pan out


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

w8pmc said:


> I did a few months back, when i was at stage 2ish (GTC Tune & Titan cat-back/"Y" pipe. Got just over 595bhp & 593lbsft. Since then i've added 1000cc Injectors, GTC Intakes, SVM Bumper Intakes & a new Custom Tune so my gut feel is around 630bhp now.
> 
> Was booked on the CPR rolling road day a few weeks back but as you'll have read, it didn't pan out


Yes that is similar (save the bumper inserts) to Litchfield's stage 4 that he estimates as 630bhp.

My higher torque figure is as result of that small amount of extra boost I now have.

D


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

Dyno'd mine at SRR with y-pipe, intakes and GTC custom tune with 591bhp and 627ftlbs, so int he same ball park with the same sort of mods. We need to go for an A1 blast Sumo


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm really pleased you are happy with the tune David, Charlie knows what he is doing the GTRs on the dyno  As Mr Yu has rightly said you can't really read to much into dyno runs on a different day. Take the car back on a cold winters day and I'm sure you'll get another 10bhp.

Just to clarify what I said about the fueling. I would not want to push it anymore at the top end without fuel injectors as there would not be the spare capacity to let the car richen the mixture at high speed.

Regards

Iain


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

alloy said:


> Dyno'd mine at SRR with y-pipe, intakes and GTC custom tune with 591bhp and 627ftlbs, so int he same ball park with the same sort of mods. We need to go for an A1 blast Sumo


You have the "advantage" of intakes so Stage 3 in Litchfield terms as I have replacement panel filters only...and I am making same power as you!!:chuckle::chuckle:

I will PM/SMS you about meeting up to burn a few gallons of V power!!

D


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Litchfield said:


> I'm really pleased you are happy with the tune David, Charlie knows what he is doing the GTRs on the dyno  As Mr Yu has rightly said you can't really read to much into dyno runs on a different day. Take the car back on a cold winters day and I'm sure you'll get another 10bhp.
> 
> Just to clarify what I said about the fueling. I would not want to push it anymore at the top end without fuel injectors as there would not be the spare capacity to let the car richen the mixture at high speed.
> 
> ...


Indeed I am especially as running same power as some with intakes!!

Probably should not tell you I didn't have V Power in the car either - 10 litres app of BP 97 Octane muck (as I had no choice when coming back from Donny) topped up with 60 Litres Tesco 99 yesterday, so there maybe a little more to come!!

D


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

sumo69 said:


> You have the "advantage" of intakes so Stage 3 in Litchfield terms as I have replacement panel filters only...and I am making same power as you!!:chuckle::chuckle:
> 
> I will PM/SMS you about meeting up to burn a few gallons of V power!!
> 
> D


I have stock rear section though....:chuckle:


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## Titanium GTR (Sep 27, 2009)

I was only running 1.3bar I think if you ask Iain he will confirm this as he generally won't run more without injectors. It wasn't meant as boast but more or a how is this? We rimunning same boost same mods exept intakes and the bhp is same but torque wildly different???

How do you get more torque without increase bhp?


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## Titanium GTR (Sep 27, 2009)

Got say I loved the way Iain tunes cars it gives you a lot confidence and information. And the drive home is so much better than the way there. 

Sumo you should try a VMax with a Litchfield tune. That's good experience. One the best I had in the GTR


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Titanium GTR said:


> Got say I loved the way Iain tunes cars it gives you a lot confidence and information. And the drive home is so much better than the way there.
> 
> Sumo you should try a VMax with a Litchfield tune. That's good experience. One the best I had in the GTR


+1, but defo get the injectors upgraded before running & you'll kill your front discs so prepare to upgrade those too


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Na, he too tight to go for a proper brake kit !!!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Alcon 400mm good enough?


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Steve said:


> Na, he too tight to go for a proper brake kit !!!


Cheeky s*d! :GrowUp:

Uprated brakes are imminent after Donny!

D


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

C'mon then - bring it on, I will be seeing Iain soon to get my "re map" Dave LOL. I just feel sorry for all those Cobb guys !!!!


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Why feel sorry for the Cobb guys? They need some competition in the top 10 quarter table after all, both UK and world, dyno runs are almost pointless for inter-car comparison. Unless it is all about The Twisties in which case a willy waving contest over power is pointless 

I wouldn't run 1.3 bar + on stock rods regularly. We used to say 1.4 max, but too many from a variety of tuners running correct afr, adequate octane and no knock find that after hard or even moderate use for some time that their rods are banana shaped, only discovered at tear down when doing internal upgrades.

Drop the torque a bit and it should last much longer. Also, mapping to a torque level on one dyno could bend the rods and the same torque level on another would be a bit slow.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

I am running 1.3 bar peak.

D


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Cool, was more aimed at the higher boost higher torque comments. It does feel nice, but bent rods are not good.

Leo rs, would you shift at peak power or beyond?


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Yep, agree totally about the Willy waving!! i.e. I have a million horse power and my engine bay is so shiny not even my sh*t would stick to it - do you ever use it I ask Oh no comes the inevitable reply !! LOL


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Those of us that actually "use" their cars all agree that 600bhp is the most you could ever use on track without taking undue risks with yourself and the car - anymore is just for the drag strip queens!!

D


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

But you need powa to beat a TT RS 30-130.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

thistle said:


> But you need powa to beat a TT RS 30-130.


LOL :chuckle::chuckle:


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

thistle said:


> But you need powa to beat a TT RS 30-130.


..and a skirt... soz Leo too hard to resist, even after all the conciliatory thread hugging.. :runaway:


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

So if 1.3 bar gives you circa 600bhp and this is the threshold of safety for the rods, how do the 650/750 SVM/Litchfield conversions run safely ? if they use standard internals.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

ChuckUK said:


> So if 1.3 bar gives you circa 600bhp and this is the threshold of safety for the rods, how do the 650/750 SVM/Litchfield conversions run safely ? if they use standard internals.


Other mods in conjunction with this level of boost will get up to around 630/640 - namely intakes, downpipes and injectors.

Perhaps SVM can comment on how they are doing thr 750 & more without stressing the engine internals?

D


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Titanium GTR said:


> Got say I loved the way Iain tunes cars it gives you a lot confidence and information. And the drive home is so much better than the way there.
> 
> Sumo you should try a VMax with a Litchfield tune. That's good experience. One the best I had in the GTR


AHEM!


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## chrisneeves (Apr 7, 2010)

ChuckUK said:


> So if 1.3 bar gives you circa 600bhp and this is the threshold of safety for the rods, how do the 650/750 SVM/Litchfield conversions run safely ? if they use standard internals.


It's great big dollops of torque which destroys engine internals. 600-650 ftlbs torque, 700-750bhp is the accepted safe(ish) limit. That said an engine tuned to this level will let go a lot sooner than a stock one. A good tune will focus on the torque and not just peak power.


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## Titanium GTR (Sep 27, 2009)

Mookistar said:


> AHEM!


WHAT!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Titanium GTR said:


> WHAT!


I can't be bothered. Play on


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## Titanium GTR (Sep 27, 2009)

Mookistar said:


> I can't be bothered. Play on


You really spoil this website for me. Victimisation is a word that springs to mind.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Children

Can we keep the thread on topic plz !!

D


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

chrisneeves said:


> It's great big dollops of torque which destroys engine internals. 600-650 ftlbs torque, 700-750bhp is the accepted safe(ish) limit. That said an engine tuned to this level will let go a lot sooner than a stock one. A good tune will focus on the torque and not just peak power.


A good tune will focus on maximising both whilst giving the least stress to the transmission and engine - boost spikes for example will lunch a std transmission!
Also do you have proof that a tuned engine (say 600bhp) will let go sooner than a standard one? :chairshot

D


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Sorry Sumo. I'll leave it


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## chrisneeves (Apr 7, 2010)

sumo69 said:


> A good tune will focus on maximising both whilst giving the least stress to the transmission and engine - boost spikes for example will lunch a std transmission!
> Also do you have proof that a tuned engine (say 600bhp) will let go sooner than a standard one? :chairshot
> 
> D


I'm not suggesting a 600bhp gtr engine will let go any sooner than a std one, but a 700bhp probably won't last the 100,000+ miles an unmolested std is designed to last. Internal stress's will eventually get the better of something...Tuned motors tend to go pop sooner than std ones, especially when you up the manufacturers output by 30%+. That's a fact. New motors just don't have the safety margin's built in, everything is lean design, not like the old cast iron ford pinto blocks... 25 years of messing around with engines in cars and bikes tells me tuned motors do not last as long as the motors straight from the factory, you just need to tune up to the safety margin, and not cross the line. :chuckle:


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## Titanium GTR (Sep 27, 2009)

sumo69 said:


> Children
> 
> Can we keep the thread on topic plz !!
> 
> D


Did you see anything wrong with my post? 

Just wondering?


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Titanium GTR said:


> Did you see anything wrong with my post?
> 
> Just wondering?


No - just wanted to keep the thread running without going off on a personal tangent (for whatever reason). 

D


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

I think chrisneeves is correct. You don't run 1.3 bar at peak power on standard turbos but at peak torque. Even if you did run 1.3 bar at peak power with larger turbos, the volumetric efficiency unless the turbos were very large and the cams a much different profile would still put less stress on the rods than 1.3 bar at 3000-4000 rpm


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

I believe I have 1.3 bar in midrange tapering down to 1.1 at peak power.

D


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## Verinder1984 (May 8, 2011)

*.*

hey bit off the topic,

I just had my car dyno run today.

its got 617bhp and 650ftlb at peak which happens to be at only 5500 rpm ish.

then I loose hp (max loss of about 35-40hp). I understand that the GTR shoud peak later then this maybe at 6500? Anyone know what can cause this to happen. 

Surrey dyno said there is a restriction somewhere. Is it my down pipes? im still running the standard Cat downpipes. (miltek Y, eisenmann back ,injectors, map, induction from Linch's. The only thing not down is the feul pump upgrade and downpipes.

anyone else experience issues trying to break the 610-620 HP on stock downpipes?


cheers


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

What map are you running and by which tuner?

FYI my power peak was at 5700-5900rpm.

D


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Restriction is the stock turbos more than anything else. Downpipes will add noise and may keep the power up a bit longer, but if you want peak power at 6500 then drop the power at 5500 to 6499 by running less boost. This won't only change the shape of the power curve but can also increase the power at the top as you haven't been working the turbos as hard for as long so temperatures can be better controlled.

A peak power at 5500 rpm can make a quicker car until it gets too hot, depends how you use. For a circuit car for example, 1.1 bar dropping to 1.0 at 6000 and 0.9 at 7000 will be more linear and will not need such exotic cooling measures in hard use. For a road car then 1.3 dropping to 1.1 at 6000 and 1.0 at 7000 often works best.

There are many variables to consider, a lot depends on preference.


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## Aerodramatics (Feb 10, 2008)

Titanium GTR said:


> Got say I loved the way Iain tunes cars it gives you a lot confidence and information. And the drive home is so much better than the way there.


Ain't that the truth?! :clap: Journey's in the GT-R have never been so much fun :squintdan + that cruise in economy map or race map dilemma - not! :smokin:

Looking forward to the OBDII cable/PC link and bespoke custom maps. :thumbsup:


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

sumo69 said:


> What map are you running and by which tuner?
> 
> FYI my power peak was at 5700-5900rpm.
> 
> D


Exactly what I was going to ask !!


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Verinder, When we mapped your car we discussed the Eisemann exhaust being more restrictive as the boost was tailing off quicker than normal. You could hear it in the exhaust tone.

I'm pleased it made the power you wanted though


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Iain

Is this a stage 4 car? If this had the Miltek what power & torque would you expect and at what revs?

David


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## Verinder1984 (May 8, 2011)

*.*

Thanks for your comments guys. what thistle said makes sense becuase I done the first run (by accident) with eco map I dont know what boost mayeb 0.7-0.9 ish! which was about 500HP but the curve peaked much later as expected. So reducing the boost could solve this issue. 

I havn't taken my car on track yet but I use it mainly for road use anyway. 

The map was from Ian and I think he done a good job to be honest! He told me the boost was tailing off towards the end slightly so I was expecting 590-600 

So Ian you think its the eisenmann back box (I got standard down pipes, Miltek ypipe + Eisenmann back - standard 76mm? not the larger tubes) ? I just love the sound of the it. For a few (later) HP I would stick with the back box. You've heard it yourself -IT'S NIIIIICCCE. At the rolling road there were a few guys there with thier cars getting tested and a couple of people said that my GTR is the quietest GTR they've seen (characteristic of exhaust). After seeing a few tests on other cars first, it was only when the GTR was tested did everyone have to put thier fingers in their ears!

would be interested to see another back box in action I must admit.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

I stick with stock exhaust for noise, 30 hp vs a lot more noise, stick with what you have imho


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## Verinder1984 (May 8, 2011)

I agree. if down pipes will solve the issue then Im not really interested in chaging that.

But if a simple change of the back box then I might consider getting another. I will hold tight for now. 

I know its off topic - If I was to find a new back box what box is knows to provide good flow with a unique tone? 


Eisenmaan:

GTM Challenge GTR Eisenmann exhaust - YouTube

Delivering Jon Olsson's Nissan Skyline GTR R35 with Eisenmann Exhaust on Autobahn - YouTube

GTR with Eisenmann Race Exhaust - YouTube


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Iain

Think I need a visit to you !!!


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Any more power is wasted on you Steve - you can't use what you've got already!!

When you pull 3 secs a lap at CC that your Alcon BBK should give you (and not 0.5) then talk to Iain!!

D


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

LOL, STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO OUT BRAKE ME !!! well you couldn't pass with your "extra" power could you - is it something with ALL Davids ???


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Steve said:


> LOL, STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO OUT BRAKE ME !!! well you couldn't pass with your "extra" power could you - is it something with ALL Davids ???


I hadn't been back to Iain yet when we were at CC!!

D


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## liverpoolfc (Apr 19, 2011)

wow!


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## Fazza (Aug 29, 2011)

Amazing!


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Fazza said:


> Amazing!


What is? 

The fact Steve drives so slow or my dyno readings?

D


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

sumo69 said:


> What is?
> 
> The fact Steve drives so slow or my dyno readings?
> 
> D


'Amazing' way to increase his post count


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