# Hakosuka GT-R... Anyone lucky enough to own one?



## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

Evening all,

Just curious as to if there are any lucky members in the club that own one of the original Hakosuka GT-R's (KPGC10 Skyline 2000 GT-R) ?










Legendary motor so wondered if there are any or many outside of Japan?

Viva.


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

There is a lengthy thread on this subject, which will also lead you to the whereabouts of some very good lookalike GT-R's and an original one too.
The market is brimming with copies, good and bad, but it also explains very well just exactly how in depth and complicated the subject is.


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## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

Ah, cheers for that Paul. I shall have a rummage 

Wasn't aware of issues with look-a-likes, but one to be aware of I suppose!


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

Don't get me wrong...nothing wrong with look-a-likes as long as they are announced as such. A hell of a lot of cash goes into those cars and even the not so good ones fetch good money. I think it's great that people out there are willing to recreate a magical car, but of course the real thing with pedigree and history is just unbeatable. Truly a pleasure to be around.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

JamieR said:


> Evening all,
> 
> Just curious as to if there are any lucky members in the club that own one of the original Hakosuka GT-R's (KPGC10 Skyline 2000 GT-R) ?
> 
> ...


The photo you used above is of a 'replica' GT-R. It's actually a KGC10 GT or GT-X model pretending to be a K*P*GC10 GT-R.

Beautiful car, but it's _not_ what you are asking about.

Touchy subject for some!


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

Hi Alan.
You must have a text alert attached to your PC that flashes red everytime the letters K.P.G & C are used in the same sentence..lol
Hope you are well.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Paul,
It's like the Batphone. I just sit here snoozing until it rings.... 

JamieR,
To the best of my knowledge, there are only _three_ C10-series Skylines here in the UK, and none in the GTROC ( although Mr Fuggles claims there is a KPGC10 owned by a member ). 

One GC10 ( silver four-door GT, L-series engine ) in Notts, one KGC10 ( silver 2-door 'Hard Top' GT, L-series engine ) near Swindon and my KPGC10 ( white & blue 2-door 'Hard Top' GT-R, S20 twin cam engine ) here in north London. 

There are a fair few C10s in Australia now ( fellow forum member Babalouie has a lovely silver KGC10 with a mega thread on japanesenostalgiccars.com ), and some beauties in the USA also ( including at least a couple of genuine GT-Rs ), as well as a handful of very rare LHD 4-door models in Portugal, Holland and Scandinavia. A single silver KGC10 in Germany too, I believe. 

There's some interest in the cars here, but their relatively high value in Japan and the poor exchange rate means that we are unlikely to see too many being imported for the forseeable future.

Cheers,
Alan T.


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## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

Well thank you very much for that, Alan. Most interesting. Shortly after I posted the thread late last night, I stumbled upon your thread and have to say it's certainly a fine example!

Also appears that you've done your research when it comes to the nostalgic motor that is the KPGC10 

I know exactly what you mean as regards the exchange rate, it's amazing how many importers have either ceased trading because of this, or have reduced the stock they bring in. Hopefully things will change.

Regards,
J.


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> The photo you used above is of a 'replica' GT-R. It's actually a KGC10 GT or GT-X model pretending to be a K*P*GC10 GT-R.
> 
> Beautiful car, but it's _not_ what you are asking about.
> 
> Touchy subject for some!


Can i ask how you know by looking at the picture that its not a real kpgc10 im new to it and like many others mad in love with it as of lately, all im asking is are the bodys different in any way?


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> Can i ask how you know by looking at the picture that its not a real kpgc10 im new to it and like many others mad in love with it as of lately, all im asking is are the bodys different in any way?


Well the GT-R didn't have a radio (it was a spartan, GT3-type thing that didn't even come with a heater)...and that car above has an aerial  Secondly I think that car has stainless trim on the rain gutters whereas the GT-R had plain painted gutters. But to answer your question, visually there aren't any really obvious clues between a real one and a very nicely done clone. 

But that car is quite well-known in Hako owner circles.


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## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

Babalouie said:


> But that car is quite well-known in Hako owner circles.


For being an imposter? 

It's certainly well presented, I'll say that...


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

JamieR said:


> For being an imposter?
> 
> It's certainly well presented, I'll say that...


It was featured in JNC magazine, has won several show trophies in the States, and Alan probably knows its owner, Roy 

I should of course point out that the only one who mistook this car as a genuine GTR is the original poster 

I am not sure why there is such a big deal about the genuine/clone thing, after all if I went out and built a 911 Carerra RS 2.7 replica it's not like anyone's nose would get out of joint about it, and at the end of the day, Roy's clone is probably faster than the real thing anyway


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Thank its been bothering me for a while and tryed to find out for myself with out asking but the only way a man will learn is by asking thanks again id be very happy with a copy i think they are a stunning looking car seen this for sale its a real one but its crazy money 
I have a link but this will not let me post it yet cause im new and post count not up lol
€76,105.46

But saying that id prob be the 1st to give it if i had it.

Another question why do engine swap for an rb25 and not something bigger or is it just to do with weight and if so why not put in a sr20?


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

iv the link there as my status


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> Another question why do engine swap for an rb25 and not something bigger or is it just to do with weight and if so why not put in a sr20?


I think any modified Hako in Japan is more of a style statement than anything else, really. And the RB is closer in layout (twincam 24v straight six), sound and looks to the original S20 GTR motor than an SR20. so I suppose the RB fits the template a bit better.

I guess it's like a US muscle car, of course it would go faster if you fitted a modern turbo engine, but you'd lose that V8 sound, which is so integral to their character. Hakos in Japan are viewed similarly, it's about style and character rather than raw speed


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks ya thats what i was thinking but once a swap it should not matter then why not go for jzx100 

And another stupid question ill take it its next to imposable to get a s20 gtr motor so ar them s20's not in any othen car?


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> Thanks ya thats what i was thinking but once a swap it should not matter then why not go for jzx100
> 
> And another stupid question ill take it its next to imposable to get a s20 gtr motor so ar them s20's not in any othen car?


1JZ conversions have been done before, but I think from a character point of view, a Nissan motor is preferable. Like I said, it not about raw power and speed, so the fact that a 2JZ makes more power than an RB25 is not really an issue. For example, many of the RBr conversions that Rocky Auto do on oldschool cars are slushmatics.

S20 motor was only found in 2000 Skyline GTRs and about 800 z432 Zed cars. So all in all, very rare. Any S20 engined car will set you back Y7 mil as a starting point.

Also, the parts prices for S20s are terrifying. So they are not cheap to run


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Babalouie said:


> I am not sure why there is such a big deal about the genuine/clone thing, after all if I went out and built a 911 Carerra RS 2.7 replica it's not like anyone's nose would get out of joint about it, and at the end of the day, Roy's clone is probably faster than the real thing anyway


Speaking from a personal viewpoint, if anything gets my nose "out of joint" about 'clones' it is the fact that people keep mistaking them for _the real thing_, and confusing the issues of mechanical specs, trim and equipment and - especially - _prices_. Look how many threads you see on forums where people are basically unsure about what _is_ what, and therefore what costs what....

Of course, most so-called 'clones' are not clones at all. A GT or GT-X with some of the exterior trim details from the GT-R, and wearing GT-R emblems, is _a long way_ from a real GT-R and therefore nothing like the definition of a 'clone'. There are a few good _genuine fakes_ to watch out for though....!

Yes, a modified L-gata engined car will usually be faster than one with an original S20 twin cam. But then it bloody well should be, with usually the best part of an extra litre of capacity to play with. Those L-gata's are great engines; essentially simple, cheap and easy to modify with lots of parts interchange and aftermarket tuning parts. I'm a big L-gata fan and multiple owner. 

But a highly _modified_ S20 on the other hand is another matter altogether. Once you start tearing into them you realise that it's a thoroughbred, built more like a swiss watch movement and a joy to work with. This is the engine type that the original 'GT-R' legend was built on, and it's the one that won those 50-something races which originally made that 'GT-R' emblem something to look up to. The clones and 'lookalikes' are riding on that kudos whether their owners realise it or not.

And yes, I'd like a lookalike too. 



Babalouie said:


> S20 motor was only found in 2000 Skyline GTRs and about 800 z432 Zed cars. So all in all, very rare. Any S20 engined car will set you back Y7 mil as a starting point.


I believe the 'official' numbers from Nissan were 832 PGC10, 1,113 KPGC10 and just 197 KPGC110 - so a total of 2,142 S20-engined GT-Rs ( not including factory test and race cars ). Additionally, something around 420~450 PS30 and PS30-SB Fairlady Z432s and Fairlady Z432-Rs also used the S20 engine ( again, not including factory test and race cars ) so the total production for S20 engined models would have been around the 2,600 mark. 

Big subject once you start getting into it!


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

Well I spose that for a punter coming from a background with modern Skylines, it's understandably more difficult to put the vintage Skylines in the right context.

You have to understand that the numbers are somewhat different. Say if you look at the R32~34 GT-Rs, there were perhaps 50,000 made and probably over half are still kicking around in good health. So on a global level they are quite plentiful, with lots to go around for anyone with the wherewithal to buy one. Vintage GT-Rs are a somewhet different proposition, with (as Alan has said) only 2000-ish made and only a few hundred are still surviving today. So in terms of availability and rarity, a vintage GT-R is not like comparing say, a GTSt to a modern GT-R, it's more like comparing a GTSt to a 400R or N1.

Hence the situation with the vintage 'Lines is more like the situation with say the Porsche 911 Carrera RS, which is to say that the real ones are so rare and expensive, that plenty of blokes can't afford it, and take matters into their own hands by making a replica. 

I guess it doesn't help that, in Japan, Skyline enthusiasts don't do things by halves, and so a Hako GTR replica will usually have GT-R badges too (so it is more "JDM" to have them on your Hako GTR clone too). But here's the thing...there are blokes building Boss Mustang and Yenko Camaro clones in the 'States, and guys everywhere aspiring to build 911 Carrera replicas, accurate right down to the stickers. And why not? I have to say that part of the enjoyment of classic cars is sitting in your garage with a glass of wine, and just looking at them  And that is more fun if it is visually a more accurate replica 

That said, I don't have GT-R badges on my Hako GTR clone, purely to avoid the confusion that would cause. There are far too many ppl referring to "Babalouie's GTR" as it is


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Thanks a mill again guy's, i know there is alot of stuff out there about these beaauty's so as rear and dear as the real kpgc10 is what is the story with the of the models like if a man wanted to buy are the all priced differently and is it posable to buy just a shell and start from scratch.



Babalouie said:


> I don't have GT-R badges on my Hako GTR clone, purely to avoid the confusion that would cause. There are far too many ppl referring to "Babalouie's GTR" as it is


Fair play id be the same if i ever had the chance to own 1 have you any pictures of your car.

Iv seen Alan T one on this site but no offence its not what i like, i love the road ones.


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> Thanks a mill again guy's, i know there is alot of stuff out there about these beaauty's so as rear and dear as the real kpgc10 is what is the story with the of the models like if a man wanted to buy are the all priced differently and is it posable to buy just a shell and start from scratch.


As far as the real-deal 2000GT-R is concerned, the price range for what look to be driveable cars starts at Y7mil and goes to Y15mil. That's for a coupe, a sedan in equal condition is maybe 2mil cheaper.

This is what you get for your 15mil though:


























Very thoroughly restored, and if anything, maybe a wee bit too nice to drive. 

This car: ’†ŒÃŽÔŽÔ—¼�Ú�×�FƒXƒJƒCƒ‰ƒCƒ“ GT-R is advertised for Y13mil, and looks to be more of a driver, it went to auction last yr and got up to Y10mil but didn't meet reserve.

In terms of what you'd pay for an ok condition car (ie presentable but still need some restoration to be concours), it would be around the Y7-8mil mark. This one is a good example: ???????????????????|??????Goo-net(?????)

In terms of the very cheapest one I've see, IIRC that was around Y5.5mil, with lots of obvious work needing to be done. The real basket cases don't really come onto the market, since they're snapped up by local punters and restored. But when an S20 engine alone costs Y1.5mil, I would think that even a rusty hulk with a tree growing through it in a field would be worth some decent coin 



D1stylz said:


> Fair play id be the same if i ever had the chance to own 1 have you any pictures of your car.
> 
> Iv seen Alan T one on this site but no offence its not what i like, i love the road ones.


Here you go!


















But we can do a bit better than just pictures, here's the build diary 
Japanese Nostalgic Car :: View topic - JNC Project Hakosuka Build Thread


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## dan-hipgrave (Nov 22, 2008)

I never tire of reading that build diary, absolutely spot on with the looks/stance, great car you have there :thumbsup:


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Babalouie said:


> But we can do a bit better than just pictures, here's the build diary


Is that yours Ya was in the middel of reading that some car im very jealous fair play on the job you have done on it Its a minter of a car lad you still own it im not even half way reading it yet lol


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## r33line (Sep 10, 2006)

What a car the c10 was Datsun got it right when they made that model.. id give a kidney for one of them.. but the chances of getting one would be slim.


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## Snowfiend (Jul 11, 2006)

You should ask Alan (ps30-sb) to put up some pics of his...my girlfriend took some reference pics of it last year, it's stunning...and the man knows his shit!


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## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

dan-hipgrave said:


> I never tire of reading that build diary, absolutely spot on with the looks/stance, great car you have there :thumbsup:


Got it in one


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

honestly speaking,

If somebody would want to buy a real Hakosuka GTR for 7-15 million Yen, i would be concerned about where to actually buy that car from???:nervous:

Japan is great for small dealers, restoring, tuning and preserving affordable cars, that would be 100% junk oversea . . . the problem is that japan has no real premium, high standard dealer ring, when it comes to expensive high quality JDM cars!
It is a bit cursed over here, you either have to find a professional honest tuner who knows his shi&t or a dealer with a long sales history of these types of cars. Most of the garages, tuners ex . . . in japan are crap! They have gotten 2 cars that shine like diamonds, but overall their business and knowledge is sub-zero.

So finding a none-restored high quality original Hakosuka GTR, is near impossible, a replica is possible but who restored it and how can you know they not just painted over the rust? 

The best thing is that you look out for classic skylines in the 1-2million marks. Set your self a budget of about 2 millions and get something not too bad with a L-engine (L27,28,30). Everything with newer engines and missions is overpriced bullsh6t, as most of these cars are just personal maniac project cars by unique tuners (like the bosses project), and are basicly cars that have been tuned over years . . . so its not like they build such cars monthly, which would justify the price tags of theses (4-8million Yen), as they are build professionaly.


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

gtrlux said:


> honestly speaking,
> 
> If somebody would want to buy a real Hakosuka GTR for 7-15 million Yen, i would be concerned about where to actually buy that car from???:nervous:
> 
> ...


Thats my thinking too. im in the body trade so id not be looking for one that would be finished in any way to be honest every car iv owned iv striped down and re-done just so id be happy with it. As for an engine thats where im stuck so far i know i don't want an s20 and only because how much they are and parts been so rear other than that Id have nothing but. Id be happy with a rep, just like Babalouie and id love a 6 cylinder not fussy but as long as it low Maintenance. Honestly all im really after is looks and sound.

Can you tell me about L-engine's 

Thank's


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> Can you tell me about L-engine's


L-series is basically Nissan's workhorse engine from the mid 60s to the early 80s. It was available in 4 and 6cyl forms and in capacities ranging from 1.6L to 2.8L (petrol and diesel) and was fitted to everything ranging from basic family cars to Skylines, Zed cars and even the huge Patrol 4x4. Power ranges from 75hp for the lowliest 4cyl to 180hp for the 2.8 turbo in the 280ZX-T. The ones factory-fitted to C10 GT coupes are straight sixes, SOHC and 12valve. Factory stock the C10s came with 2L sixes that ranged from 120 to 130hp depending on tune. 

In terms of sporting heritage, it doesn't have the touring-car history that the S20 engine had (which had an unbeaten winning streak in Japan for almost 3yrs). But outside of Japan, it's the L-series which has the more runs on the board. It's the motor that was used in the Safari-rally winning 240Zs, has multiple SCCA championship wins (in many different classes), and in the UK I suppose its big moment would have been in Modsports in the mid 70s.

The common upgrade for vintage Nissans in Japan is to fit a bigger L28 (2750cc) block from a later model Nissan. Bolts straight in, and bone stock in the 280ZX, this motor would have put out 145hp. The common upgrade package in Japan is to bolt on extractors, electronic ignition and triple carbs for about 180hp. Add 20hp with a bigger cam, for about 200hp for a healthy engine with just bolt on mods.

Being an oldschool motor, the next step is to start to upgrade the internals, and this step is not so much bolt on, as oldschool custom work, like cylinder head porting, larger valves, bore-up pistons, more compression etc. At this point, it really comes down to how much you want to spend, and whether the right oldschool engine building expertise is local to you.

The most powerful L-series I know of is 392ps at 7300rpm, from Auto Service Watanabe in Japan. This is all-motor, just big capacity, big revs, big cam and massive carbs 
YouTube - G-WORKS DRAG RACING PART 2

Mine's at about 270hp, from a bore-up to 2950cc, 11:1 compression, 300degree cam, and lots of headwork, so how far you go depends on the depths of your wallet  but it's still a driveable everyday motor that can potter around in traffic (it gets used for the school run  ). The Hako weighs only 1090kg, so with three torquey litres to push it along, it's quite pleasant to drive, mate 

There are many sources of hot up bits, and some are USDM because of the popularity of the Zed cars in the States (check out Welcome To The Z Store! Nissan-Datsun 240Z-260Z-280Z-280ZX-300ZX(Z31/Z32)-350Z-370Z Parts!). JDM sources aren't the usual HKS/A'pexi/etc but are more specialised: www.kameariengineworks.co.jp (among others).

And also there's plenty of second hand gear available on Yahoo auctions etc. I'm not sure about the situation in the UK, but there are certainly local brands here in Oz that make triple carb manifolds etc. It's all interchangeable between Zed and Skylines, except for the extractors which are a different height for Skylines and Zeds.

So in a way, the L-series is a little bit like the small-block Chevy V8. It's plentiful and cheap but very strong! And has been in production for so long that there is so much performance equipment and expertise for the engine, that building a strong performer that punches above its low-tech weight is actually quite easy


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

gtrlux said:


> honestly speaking,
> 
> If somebody would want to buy a real Hakosuka GTR for 7-15 million Yen, i would be concerned about where to actually buy that car from???:nervous:
> 
> ...


Chris,
Let's not get too carried away here.....

If anyone had a budget of "7-15 million Yen" for a genuine Hakosuka GT-R, there are several specialist dealers in Japan that could supply such a car. _Personally_, if I had that kind of budget I'd go to Japan in person and look at a lot of cars to compare them, and as many private sellers as possible. As I think I've said what seems like a hundred times before, the _better_ cars of this type and age tend to change hands _privately_, within groups of like-minded individuals ( owners clubs, friends of friends etc ) and you don't see any of that in magazines, on the web, or running through auctions. You just have to make an effort to get your foot in the door.

Yes, the _are_ 'crap' so-called restorations in the Japanese classic car world, but in my experience it's not that much different to anywhere else. Having been a serial 'classic' car owner ( even before I left school ) I've seen - and owned! - a fair bit of junk myself, but I've seen _plenty_ of well restored cars in Japan and the key point is that _these good cars are not in the sector of the market that people tend to want to look at_..... 

No disrespect to new forum member D1stylz here, but I get the feeling he's not got much of a budget to play with. He hasn't mentioned his location, but I suspect he's rather a long way from Japan and therefore will almost certainly need to import a car if he wants to own a KGC10. You have recommended the 2 million Yen area of budget, but my feeling is that this is starting to get into the grey area of poor rolling restos, impecunious former owners and the make-do-and-mend type of day to day life that such cars can lead. In fact, such a car might not really be all that much better than a cheaper restoration project in the long run. 

I think my best advice - and this is common sense, surely? - is that old cars like these _need to be viewed on a case-by-case basis_. Most of the more reputable importers are unlikely to want to get involved in such a scenario, and if you ask one of the _less_ principled importers to source one you are at the mercy of their opinion and ( lack of ) experience with the model, or - even worse - the same from a third party whom they appoint to do the legwork for them. And if the customer doesn't really know all that much about the C10 Skyline range, doesn't really understand what a standard car would be like - let alone what kind of modifications are likely to have been carried out to the car in its life - then it's all too likely that he will end up with something that's not quite as good as he had hoped. 

I'd like to be encouraging _more_ people to import such old Japanese cars to the UK and wherever ( the more the merrier ) but decent cars _are not cheap_ in Japan, and there'd no point kidding yourself that you might be able to get a half-decent one and 'fix it up' for the equivalent of what you would pay for a decent Mk.II Cortina GT. 

I'm sure I come across as a little too _'Glass Half Empty'_ for some people's taste, but I don't want to encourage people by giving them false expectations. One person here in the UK has already fallen foul of their own poor judgement - as well as the inexperience and deviousness of others - and imported a complete sh*tbox of a KGC10 to the UK. To make matters worse, that poor soul originally asked the importer to find a "GT-R", so it was a case of the blind leading the blind. What a shambles. The car is still not on the road, and as far as I am aware there was no compensation. 

I don't want to see that happening to anybody else.


Alan T.


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

I'd echo what Alan T has said, he knows his stuff. I haven't been in the position to be able to consider importing a real 2000GT-R, but I can share some experiences with importing my GT-R rep....

In the second half of 2007, I'd decided I wanted a Hako rep. After a bit of research, I'd found that the average price of these things was about Y2.4mil, so I set my budget at Y3mil to ensure that I nabbed a good 'un. Contact was made with a broker in Japan, and emails of cars began to flood my inbox everyday. In the end the choice came down to a handful of cars.

Car #1 was a sedan. Now I love the idea of a sleeper, with upright, narrow styling and practicality but plenty of L-series cubes and massive Webers under the bonnet. And with all that grunt, handling on narrow tyres and skinny wheels would have been a hoot. But countered against this is that sedans are just less sexy than their coupe counterparts and so as a result they are worth less (and once imported, would probably be harder to sell).









But this was a hell of a nice car in the photos. 









The seller was all too happy to share pics of the restoration process, as well as the state of the car before resto.









At Y3.1mil, it was maybe the most expensive C10 sedan I've ever seen advertised, but you can see where the previous owner spent the money. Of course you're always taking a risk with a prior restoration that perhaps the quality of work was not up to par, but in this case it seemed that the risk was quite low (I was sent hundreds more pics).









Car #2 was a Safari Gold (ie orange) coupe  









This time, no pics of the resto. But the seller (a classic dealer) was happy to send lots of detail pics of the car. And overall it seemed like maybe this was an unrestored survivor and maybe the Safari Gold was the original paint (most Hakos are repainted the more fashionable silver during their resto).









So this car seemed honest and not flashy (although I am wondering why the fuel pump is danging in the spare wheel well...) and at Y2.7mil was decently priced.









Car #3 was a gunmetal coupe at the same dealer.









Again, nothing too flashy and maybe even a little plain (but at least it's not orange).









And again, no resto pics, but at least this car looked like it got used and driven.









Price was Y2.9mil.









And then we come to car #4  BAM!









Firstly, the registration had lapsed. So obviously it wasn't driven often (if a car is used a lot, it's a sign that well...it works). Secondly the engine was a mystery, and the seller (another classic dealer) did not know what specs it was. When the broker went to inspect it, he wasn't given a test drive (because it was unregistered, but it was not explained as to why a delaer plate couldn't have been put on the car for a spin around the block).









It was also slightly cheaper than the others at Y2.7mil, and it was described as a "nothing to spend" car. But I had no pics of the resto. By now, all sorts of alarm bells should have been ringing....but...just look at it  









Guess which of the above cars I ended up buying :lamer:

Three years of continuous restoration (and somewhat more money spent) suggest that perhaps I didn't pick the best car  But in the end, I think I did get what I paid for. I had always reserved an additional budget to bring the car up to spec as a trackday toy, and that budget got used up fairly quickly fixing things. But if you read through the build thread, you'll find that we discovered that the car came with all sorts of tasty expensive gear for free, and so in the final analysis, it met the performance objectives I had, and only went a wee bit over budget in the process.

But I consider that I got away quite lucky here. In hindsight, if I had travelled to Japan and had a look at the car, would I have ended up with a better purchase? Undoubtedly, although in the area of evaluating bodywork, I know a lot more about what I am looking at now than I would have back then.

I reckon though, that as long as you are going into the process with your eyes open, and you don't get too carried away, then you stand a pretty good chance of getting a decent car at a decent price. Just don't judge a book by its cover. Um...like I did


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

@ Babalouie -


> So in a way, the L-series is a little bit like the small-block Chevy V8. It's plentiful and cheap but very strong! And has been in production for so long that there is so much performance equipment and expertise for the engine, that building a strong performer that punches above its low-tech weight is actually quite easy


So they are real easy to work on ?
And if you were to buy and engine for you car we'll just say that you had a shell and were in the market what would you look for or get?

Thanks


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Babalouie said:


> Guess which of the above cars I ended up buying :lamer:
> 
> Three years of continuous restoration (and somewhat more money spent) suggest that perhaps I didn't pick the best car  But in the end, I think I did get what I paid for. I had always reserved an additional budget to bring the car up to spec as a trackday toy, and that budget got used up fairly quickly fixing things. But if you read through the build thread, you'll find that we discovered that the car came with all sorts of tasty expensive gear for free, and so in the final analysis, it met the performance objectives I had, and only went a wee bit over budget in the process.
> 
> ...


Thanks again i total understand i see where your comming from but what you have sir i would love. im not after one thats done. i'd honestly perfer a bad one and do it from scratch then i know what id have.


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> @ Babalouie -
> So they are real easy to work on ?
> And if you were to buy and engine for you car we'll just say that you had a shell and were in the market what would you look for or get?
> 
> Thanks


Piss easy to work on. Things like the alternator or the starter motor can be removed and be on your bench within 10mins. There's plenty of room and access to everything, and maybe the only faff is that the carbs and the extractors are on the same side and share the same gasket, so if you remove one, you have to remove the other. But apart from that, they're a real pleasure to work on.

If I were shopping for an engine, what you want is the L28. That's the biggest of the L-series sixes at 2750cc. There are a couple of variations but the most common one in Japan is the N42 block (nothing wrong with that...the other kind is maybe a wee bit stronger if you were going to boost it). There are many variations of cylinder head, with different compression ratios, valve and port sizes etc, and a good guide to the various types is here: L6 heads; pics and descriptions - HybridZ But the most common kind in Japan is the N42 again, and there is nothing wrong with that as a base to work from. The codes are cast into side of the block on the passenger side and on the head it's just below the spark plug holes near the front. Most Hako coupes in Japan have had the L28 upgrade since it's cheap and easy, so you will probably inherit one with your shell anyway. If you had to buy an L28, I suppose the most logical source in the UK would be from a dead 280ZX. Not sure what type of head (N42 etc) you get with that though.

But there isn't a factory combination which has massive valve sizes and ports or anything like that, so whichever you choose will have to be worked and gasflowed to reach its potential anyway. But some are better than others as a base to start from.


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Chris,
> Let's not get too carried away here.....
> 
> If anyone had a budget of "7-15 million Yen" for a genuine Hakosuka GT-R, there are several specialist dealers in Japan that could supply such a car. _Personally_, if I had that kind of budget I'd go to Japan in person and look at a lot of cars to compare them, and as many private sellers as possible. As I think I've said what seems like a hundred times before, the _better_ cars of this type and age tend to change hands _privately_, within groups of like-minded individuals ( owners clubs, friends of friends etc ) and you don't see any of that in magazines, on the web, or running through auctions. You just have to make an effort to get your foot in the door.
> ...


Respect to you i understand Alan.

Im from ireland but moving to the USA in the next month or so, my big plan is to get KGC10 but built it over time my budget is small but willing save to own one of these. What i was trying to say is if its posable to get a shell and start from there or get a cheap one knowing it will be in bad shape and strip it back so ill still be starting with a shell and working from there my plan is to own one but time is not a problem im not rushing to get one. I just want to find out as much as i can before i do so. hence all the stupid ignorant questions i sold my last dream car took over two years to get it but when iv my mind set on something ill not stop till i get it. it then took me a year to get it the way i was happy even doe i had bought it more or less done there was a few bits i was not happy with so i redone the whole car.

This is her after photo shoot for Irish mag MIJ issue not in the shops yet but a member on here took the pictures Mick i don't know his user name.

























Anyway i hope you can see i dont care what i get because ill start from the shell and work on from there.

with that said how much parts can be got for these After market or OME.


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Babalouie said:


> Piss easy to work on. Things like the alternator or the starter motor can be removed and be on your bench within 10mins. There's plenty of room and access to everything, and maybe the only faff is that the carbs and the extractors are on the same side and share the same gasket, so if you remove one, you have to remove the other. But apart from that, they're a real pleasure to work on.
> 
> If I were shopping for an engine, what you want is the L28. That's the biggest of the L-series sixes at 2750cc. There are a couple of variations but the most common one in Japan is the N42 block (nothing wrong with that...the other kind is maybe a wee bit stronger if you were going to boost it). There are many variations of cylinder head, with different compression ratios, valve and port sizes etc, and a good guide to the various types is here: L6 heads; pics and descriptions - HybridZ But the most common kind in Japan is the N42 again, and there is nothing wrong with that as a base to work from. The codes are cast into side of the block on the passenger side and on the head it's just below the spark plug holes near the front. Most Hako coupes in Japan have had the L28 upgrade since it's cheap and easy, so you will probably inherit one with your shell anyway. If you had to buy an L28, I suppose the most logical source in the UK would be from a dead 280ZX. Not sure what type of head (N42 etc) you get with that though.
> 
> But there isn't a factory combination which has massive valve sizes and ports or anything like that, so whichever you choose will have to be worked and gasflowed to reach its potential anyway. But some are better than others as a base to start from.


Again thank you for givin me time and explaining when my time comes ill be on to you and Alan and ill have yer heads wired :blahblah: lol Is there may 280ZX around? iv only seen 1 in ireland but ather that i know nothing about them.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

D1stylz said:


> Im from ireland but moving to the USA in the next month or so, my big plan is to get KGC10 but built it over time my budget is small but willing save to own one of these. What i was trying to say is if its posable to get a shell and start from there or get a cheap one knowing it will be in bad shape and strip it back so ill still be starting with a shell and working from there my plan is to own one but time is not a problem im not rushing to get one.......
> 
> ......Anyway i hope you can see i dont care what i get because ill start from the shell and work on from there.
> 
> with that said how much parts can be got for these After market or OME.


Not many exporters / importers will deal with a rolling 'shell. Something like that would need to be container shipped ( $$$ ), and you might be unlucky enough to end up with it having been fork-lifted at some point too. Moving something like that around inside Japan ( it's a big place ) can be expensive and problematic, which you may not have considered.

99.9% of viable cars are going to be complete with engine anyway. Almost always they will have an L-series 6 installed ( either the original L20A six, or a later L28 six ) and this is pretty much what you want anyway. At the very least, an original L20A will be useful for donor ancillaries ( especially the early Skyline chassis-specific installation parts ) and you would be able to find 280Z and 280ZX-sourced base L28 engines quite easily and cheaply when you move to the USA. So buy a running and driving car in the first place and make your life easier all round.

A running and pretty much complete car will also have a lot of those little soft trim and garnish parts that you will have trouble tracking down if you _don't_ have them in the first place, and they are expensive too. Chrome / stainless parts, rubber parts and exterior bits and pieces are all expensive and usually only available in Japan though specialist dealers. 

A complete running car will also go back together better than a bitsa ( especially if you make good notes when you take it apart ), and there are _hundreds_ of model-specific and manufacturing date differences to contend with if you are missing anything. Many parts are still available from Nissan or from marque specialists, but it all adds up and can become quite frightening when you look at the bottom line.

If I were you I'd start by arming myself with some decent reference books on the C10, and also a copy of the factory parts manual. Gen up on as much as you can, and you'll be better equipped to make good decisions when the time comes.

You might also be better off getting involved on a forum such as Japanese Nostalgic Cars where there are more C10 owners than here, and just more general interest in old Japanese tin.

Lastly - and I hope this doesn't sound silly - see if you can find a C10 Skyline in the metal, and get up close to it. I sometimes find that people are surprised when they see a real one after only having ever seen pictures of them in a magazine or on a computer screen. It's strange. Some people think they are _bigger_ than they imagined, and some people think they are _smaller_ than they imagined. Getting behind the wheel of one might even change your opinion about them. Hopefully it will be a positive experience, but it depends on your expectations...! 

Good luck.

Cheers,
Alan T.


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## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

@D1stylz...

Funny you should post up the PS13, I'm looking for one at the moment and have been over to Tamworth today to view another example. 

That's a fine example you've posted up, any details? PM if preffered amigo.

Cheers


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

PS30-SB said:


> Not many exporters / importers will deal with a rolling 'shell. Something like that would need to be container shipped ( $$$ ), and you might be unlucky enough to end up with it having been fork-lifted at some point too. Moving something like that around inside Japan ( it's a big place ) can be expensive and problematic, which you may not have considered.
> 
> 99.9% of viable cars are going to be complete with engine anyway. Almost always they will have an L-series 6 installed ( either the original L20A six, or a later L28 six ) and this is pretty much what you want anyway. At the very least, an original L20A will be useful for donor ancillaries ( especially the early Skyline chassis-specific installation parts ) and you would be able to find 280Z and 280ZX-sourced base L28 engines quite easily and cheaply when you move to the USA. So buy a running and driving car in the first place and make your life easier all round.
> 
> ...


All good points and makes more sence to get a complete car ill more than likely get a rough one and start that way but just putting it out there if all a man had was a shell where to go from there with parts and so my aim is ill be in USA for a year or so and in that time im gone ill hope to save enough and have the knowledge i need. All so about what you were saying about getting up close with one id love to but sounds easier than it is ha ha!! Ill defo look in to that site you have there Babalouie car is on that im reading his thread at the min. but the fact im a virgin to this car and trying to learn about them i dont want to come across as to ignorant.

Where could i get decent reference books, and copy's of the factory parts manual in English?

Thanks again for all your help.


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

This is my kinda car with the engine conversion is it a big job do the likes of this dose any body know? 



Boosted said:


> This car will upset somebody...................it has a 900bhp Toyota 2JZ motor in it :thumbsup:


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

D1stylz said:


> ill be in USA for a year or so and in that time im gone ill hope to save enough and have the knowledge i need. All so about what you were saying about getting up close with one id love to
> 
> Where could i get decent reference books, and copy's of the factory parts manual in English?


When the time comes, we can send you the parts manual and wiring diagram. 

Good books to get are:
NISSAN C10 Skyline Complete Book / GT-R R31 R32 R33 R35 - eBay (item 380103572156 end time Sep-04-10 05:32:47 PDT)

and

G-Works Old Car #02: KGC10 Skyline

The first book is more of a spotters guide to the C10 range, all the differences in trim and spec etc. The second is more like the Hyper-Rev range of books for more modern JDM cars and is more for the modder. Both books in Japanese language only of course.



D1stylz said:


> This is my kinda car with the engine conversion is it a big job do the likes of this dose any body know?


Well it look like they've had to cut the firewall, given how far back the motor site. Also I think they mightr have had to enlarge the tunnel to accomodate the dump pipe too. Apart from that, no more difficult than transplanting an efi car into a carbed car/loom I'd guess. Rear end would have to be beefed up to R200 spec, but that's quite doable, only a question of money of course


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## D1stylz (Aug 13, 2010)

Babalouie said:


> Well it look like they've had to cut the firewall, given how far back the motor site. Also I think they mightr have had to enlarge the tunnel to accomodate the dump pipe too. Apart from that, no more difficult than transplanting an efi car into a carbed car/loom I'd guess. Rear end would have to be beefed up to R200 spec, but that's quite doable, only a question of money of course


Ya i was only messing about the above, way two much messing. When I get my hands on one it'll be L-series straight 6 with small mods ill have two read up more about them but as Alan said you would be able to sourced base L28 engines quite easily and cheaply. Ill defo invest in the book's and try to understand them. I want to know as much as i can before i start hand out money :runaway: Do you have them books if so how do you translate Cheers again


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

Yeah I have both books and no, I can't read Japanese either. But you get the gist of it pretty easily I'd say, and if you need any further clarifications on something, there are quite a few Hako owners on Japanese Nostalgic Car - Index who can help.

BTW there are almost 20 Hakos in the 'States, and many of them make the effort to enter their cars in shows (including one real-life 2000GT-R). So if you keep your eyes peeled on JNC forums, you'll get your chance to see one of these up close I reckon.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

D1stylz said:


> This is my kinda car with the engine conversion is it a big job do the likes of this dose any body know?


Like I said its a matter of tuner experience . . . there is a tuner who is specialized in engine swaps in Tokyo, they put RBs in Supras, JZs in to Silvias, UZ V8s in to Corollas and K20As in to MR-s, ex . . . .
So looking at the amount and complex swaps they do, a RB swap in to a 110 would be cheese cake for them, as the car has lots of room and space.

The classic car restoration shops are maybe good at restoring, but have no clue about mounting a Getrag mission in to a 110 for exemple.
The green car was done by C&YSports a drag tuner with various tuning experiences . . . I guess they know their shit and the green car is actually drivable.

RockyAuto on the other side has some of these cars as well, remembering the N/A RB 110 Hakosuka. But the boss of RA is an old man, who is nothing more then a good mechanic with experiences in classic cars . . nothing more. So I wouldn`t go to Rocky, when I look at C&Y for exemple.

Anyway around a car like the green one is an investement like a real family car, for that price you can have an Audi S5, . . . so its affordable , but still bloody expensive.


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## Drifto_Damo (Oct 19, 2008)

one word... sexual!


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

gtrlux said:


> The classic car restoration shops are maybe good at restoring, but have no clue about mounting a Getrag mission in to a 110 for exemple.


Chris,
Just two weeks ago I was visiting my friend in Nagano, and he was in the middle of installing a Hewland SGT sequential into a 1968 P510 Bluebird race car.

This involved a lot of one-off fabrication - for example, he had to design and machine an adaptor for the original bellhousing to mate with the SGT, fabricate custom mounts to adapt the SGT to the original trans mounting area, and fabricate a custom shifter mount and linkage. The car is highly modified, but uses the original L4 type engine - albeit with the rare FIA cylinder head. All beautifully done.

I don't see where you are coming from on this. The so-called 'classic car' restorers of Japan are usually just concerned with getting cars back into driving condition ( in accordance with the budgets and needs of their customers, who are oftentimes the weak link in the chain ) and they don't usually _need_ to know how to mount a "Getrag mission in a 110". 

There are _many_ custom fabricating 'shops in Japan, and Japan has a long and fairly rich history and tradition of custom / race fabrication - although much of it exists quietly and humbly out of the limelight. Times are hard for them at the moment, but they _are_ out there alright. 

Alan T.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Alan,

I full agree with you, but the issue is another one: (talking about a swap like the green car, not talking about restoration mate)

if somebody wants to purchase such a one off tuned car with a 1970+1990 technology symbiosis, he have to be pretty sure that the tuning shop who does the swap actually does it well.

There are tons of small little garages who know their stuff, problem is that they all build one car or two, perfect and needed 10 years to build it (if I exagerate).

What we need here is a company that does these things on a regular basis, knowing how to weld special parts and know how to fabricate these parts quick and reliable. Then there shouldn`t be any excuse for "we didn`t know this or that" issues, such projects have to be complete on time, +-within budget and have to hold in terms of quality, what was said.
Maybe the last point "what was said" is a tricky one in japan, as nobody will ever do you a real listing and contract for such a project. 
Also is there a big difference between j-customers and the guys posting in this thread. The japanese will spend tons of money and the tuner will get it right somehow or not . . . it will be pain in the ass, but the japanese just say: shoganai (which means : its the way it is)

Thats the point where we western customers want to rip off the tuners head.


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

pm'd you Alan:thumbsup:




PS30-SB said:


> Chris,
> Just two weeks ago I was visiting my friend in Nagano, and he was in the middle of installing a Hewland SGT sequential into a 1968 P510 Bluebird race car.
> 
> This involved a lot of one-off fabrication - for example, he had to design and machine an adaptor for the original bellhousing to mate with the SGT, fabricate custom mounts to adapt the SGT to the original trans mounting area, and fabricate a custom shifter mount and linkage. The car is highly modified, but uses the original L4 type engine - albeit with the rare FIA cylinder head. All beautifully done.
> ...


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## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

you guys seen Dinos latest blog?

CAR SPOTLIGHT >> ROCKY AUTO HAKOSUKA - Speedhunters


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## JamieR (Jun 27, 2007)

Just had a good ole read... now that's a fine motor in my opinion. As someone else has mentioned, I just love the road-going versions of these...


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I would love to build a knock off one with one of the Aussie CNC Alloy blocks and an RB26 head, N/A with a ton of compression and head work....And a Holinger 6spd seq to top it off!
Light weight, Heaps of revs, Fantastic club classic car!

...Would be tempted to even put a tow bar on the R32 GTR to tow it to the track...Very cool!


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## xs10shl (Jan 9, 2010)

D1stylz said:


> All good points and makes more sence to get a complete car ill more than likely get a rough one and start that way but just putting it out there if all a man had was a shell where to go from there with parts and so my aim is ill be in USA for a year or so and in that time im gone ill hope to save enough and have the knowledge i need.
> 
> Where could i get decent reference books, and copy's of the factory parts manual in English?
> 
> Thanks again for all your help.


Late to the party here, but I'll add a few thoughts. If you're coming to USA you may find that you actually have a few options to import a C10 into the United States first, or buy one that's already here, then ship it home later. California (in particular Los Angeles) has several sources for cars and parts, and Utah (surprisingly) has a JDM specialist as well. A typical GTR clone (already imported) seems to fall in the $30-35K range or so. I'd say about 3 pop up Stateside for sale annually, but you can always contact righthanddrivejapan.com or jdmlegends.com and ask them to help you find one. There's also a pretty decent 4-door Hako for sale privately, listed on japanesenostalgiccar.com

Current exchange rates are working against all of us, so it's getting more expensive to import cars from Japan. 

As far a knowledge goes, I've found a handful of English speaking individuals who are helpful, Alan chief among the online crew. If you're looking for English literature on the Hakosuka, I suspect you might find that you'll be limited to one 4 minute Youtube video, and a few magazine articles . . . and that's pretty much all I've found so far. Hopefully there's more out there.


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