# TOTB Keith and Handling



## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

OK, I have to ask this, this is a post off another forum and one member there Doomtrain posted this...



Doom Train said:


> Do you really think a 1000 hp skyline can corner, it cant. Look at T0TB, the skyline that won that event did dismaly in the road course. You dont put 1000hp on a road course unless your running and open wheeled super car like f1.
> 
> Once you get over the 6xxhp mark traction becomes almost non existant, then you have to start doing interesting things to the car to get it to hook. Also, even in a GTR, your adding hundreds of pounds to the front end to make that 1000hp. IF you look at the size of turbo's need and the amount of piping and size of piping is a lot.


- did Keith really do that bad and was it the car's fault?


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

> your adding hundreds of pounds to the front end to make that 1000hp


 

It will have far more to do with suspension set-up etc. than power delivery.

Phil


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Keith would be the first to admit that the car is now pretty specialised.

The setups required to make the best from a 1000bhp skyline for quick drag times also tend to mean that they sacrifice prowess on the track. On the flip side, a gtr that can do well on track tends to suffer somewhat on the dragstrip.

Its quite simple - soft rear ends and zero or even positive camber and drag orientated soft sidewall tyres equals poor lateral g force thresholds. Low profile rubber with hard suspension and negative camber with a track bias means less out right grip for straight line traction.

I dont know why you are finding these concepts hard to grasp and continue with the discussions on similar lines. The GTR isnt invincible in all disciplines on dragstrip and track, however its one of the very best jack of all trades that can turn its hand reasonably well to anything, unlike most other cars.

The one point I would disagree with strongly in the above post by Doom Train is that you wont be adding HUNDREDS of pounds to the front end - there will be a few extra pounds but I doubt it comes in at more than 50 max. If you go the single turbo route it would probably just about equal out !!!

J.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

bladerider said:


> Keith would be the first to admit that the car is now pretty specialised.
> 
> The setups required to make the best from a 1000bhp skyline for quick drag times also tend to mean that they sacrifice prowess on the track. On the flip side, a gtr that can do well on track tends to suffer somewhat on the dragstrip.
> 
> ...


I don't find the concepts hard to grasp far from it (I got a first class hons and came top of my year in Uni so I'm not exactly stupid). 

Was Keith not allowed to adjust the suspension/camber etc and change the tyres before the handling event or must the same setup be used thru out?.

It's fun to bait the American "good old boys" and their "best goddamn engine in the world and we invented" rap. I know full well that Keith said the tyres and set up of the suspension were to blame for doing bad this year and that he only did two runs, he didn't blame the power although I'm sure the power delivery was a right laugh on the track. 

I just thought the Skylines can't corner from an American forum was very funny that's all - kettle, pot and black springs to mind. 

The V8 is a great engine (I have studied Auto engineering off and on for two years and one of my mate was on the Renault F1 auto-engineering team for a year) but a lot of the Americans seem to hate the mention of anything Japanese.

Don't take it so serious Bladey man it's only a bit of ribbing  !


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

The Garage Bomber came with HKS Drag Suspension. It IS NOT standard for an R33, only made to special order for special clients (quote Mr Andy Barnes).

Reality on the road (and track at Spa) is that the barge wallows like a whale, it is too soft, it has all the wrong damping (for "handling") but is ideal for straight line warriors.

Matters have become so keen that the "compromise" for handling at the likes of TOTB does not compensate for the loss on the 1/4's and to a lesser degree top end. That was exemplified by the MLR which made a strategic decision to concentrate on the handling course for results knowing that no one other than Mr Norris would be really able to compete on the 1/4's and top end. 

Thanks to mechanical failures the GTR's (other than Pete Everett) didn't really even enter the handling and those with drag suspension set ups like Keith, Tim (and myself for example) where never like to put in a hot handling time against the EVO's because it is just too competitive. Look at the 1/4's, unless you could do a 10.5 or less you weren't going to get a point, top speed, its looking like 190+. How many EVO's are likely to do that? In which case go for handling, its a Mickey Mouse course which suits short wheel base 4WD. Scoobies bombed out, most of the GTR's that handle broke so MLR got lucky. Right place at the right time.

Pay your money, gamble, win or lose. MLR won, good call.

In summary, it isn't necessarily about power, its about set up. Keith MIGHT have done well on handling, but he did not need to, and may have damaged his car in the attempt, so why bother.

Do we expect F1 cars to go rallying? Do we expect Rally cars to be good in F1. No. You will see likely even more focus at TOTB5, which begs the question do the organisors need to start thinking a bit more about the courses/set up. Of course if they "open up" the handling that will suit the GTR's and remove the EVO/Scooby advantage, is that want is wanted as a spectacle? We will of course likely remain dominant in 1/4s and I think the top speed run will be blown away as it would/should have been this year by a GTR.

DaveG






DaveG


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Totally agree with above ATCO - there is a lot about that on hotrod.com etc.

But I was wondering what the rules on changing out parts were(?) - i.e. using different dampers/springs/tyres for the handling course etc to score a few more points. Most of these cars have the original dampers etc still knocking about although it may not be worth the effort for the chance of a few points or there may not be time to do so or the trailering parts and cost etc - just a thought as my own mechanic can remove most dampers etc fairly quickly.


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## soggy (Apr 28, 2003)

Rocket Rons GTR....Jack of all trades...big hp & handling to match... argument settled


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

soggy said:


> Rocket Ron's GTR....Jack of all trades...big hp & handling to match... argument settled


Got too agree there. Ronnie's Car is the Car to beat and i don't think anyone will ever do that..

Big up to Ronnie and Abbey...............

I will try my best to beat it .....

You never know......


Mick


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

and Ron K as well


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## Tim (Jan 6, 2003)

ATCO said:


> those with drag suspension set ups like Keith, Tim (and myself for example)


Bilstein road/track suspension on my car Dave.
The handling circuit should have been my cars strong point but was let down by my driving. 

I'll be spending a bit more time on the handling circuit next year.


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## nigel f (Sep 11, 2002)

TIM said:


> Bilstein road/track suspension on my car Dave.
> The handling circuit should have been my cars strong point but was let down by my driving.
> 
> I'll be spending a bit more time on the handling circuit next year.


Didnt you only have one go this year ?


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

soggy said:


> Rocket Rons GTR....Jack of all trades...big hp & handling to match... argument settled


Same goes for RK's R32, fast in both handling and Drag..


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

nigel f said:


> Didnt you only have one go this year ?


My first go (after the sighting lap) was my fastest time


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## nigel f (Sep 11, 2002)

Dave you where probbley quite relaxed, thinking "we will just have a qick-ish lap before I start pushing it,"

on the rest of the lap trying to hard.

Nigel


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Surely a fully adjustable damper system might be a good compromise? i.e. with 24 position dampening for hard soft and bump/rebound...rather than swapping out whole suspensions all you'd need then is a set of 'handling' wheels/tyres and a set of 'drag' wheels/tyres?

T


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Drag suspension is completely different to road suspension...

I shouldn't imagine the diffs make it too much fun on 'track' either...

Anyway, changing things - surely thats not in the 'spirit' of the event, you don't have a road car that you hammer down the motorway at 200mph, then stop when you get to the country road to swap the wheels/tyres/suspension etc etc so you can have fun there do you?

I think it should be as you turn up you race, no wheel changes, no tyre changes etc.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

-C- said:


> I think it should be as you turn up you race, no wheel changes, no tyre changes etc.


Agree with that statement 100%.


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

I second that!

Nito


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

No argument, I agree with that!! In fact I think you should run on normal optimax too rather than fiddling with funny fuels!! 

I was just wondering if you wanted to get the best out of a car on the same suspension if this was feasible.

T


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Tim said:


> Bilstein road/track suspension on my car Dave.
> The handling circuit should have been my cars strong point but was let down by my driving.
> 
> I'll be spending a bit more time on the handling circuit next year.


Tim, I was being kind! We all know you are a good driver and it seemed ingracious of me to suggest you were the weakest link! 

With respect to RonK, he told me the problem was that the course layout meant the turbo was just "off boost" for the gear needed for the corners so he was constantly struggling with turbo lag, eventually the gearbox cried enough and it was game over.

If I could clarify, the handling course is VERY tight and twisty, the GTR is a big, heavy car. A very good driver can deliver good times, however all things being equal (say same driver) the Evo will hustle itself round the course better. If they "open it out" we all know that with sweeping curves and anything like a straight the GTR will wipe the floor (ask anyone who has been to Spa and seen what we do to GT3's, Ferrari's, Caterhams, etc. Even the radicals have a hard time against the better driven GTR's).

Fuel - not again! This has all been well documented. If someone's idea of entertainment is watching someone det a £50,000 engine into oblivion because they "must" use pump fuel then they need a dose of reality or are refugees from the Celebrity Jungle/Sun/Chav Weekly.


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Fuel I think is acceptable.. I have no issues with using race fuel, I did myself...

But other bits I have issues with


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

tonigmr2 said:


> Surely a fully adjustable damper system might be a good compromise? i.e. with 24 position dampening for hard soft and bump/rebound...rather than swapping out whole suspensions all you'd need then is a set of 'handling' wheels/tyres and a set of 'drag' wheels/tyres?
> 
> T


Aurok modified mine (a JDM Ohlins 10 way adjustable) to suit UK B roads. I wonder if these guys (Dave and Toby who do work for motorsports teams) could help the GT-R OC design/modify a suspension to be more changable for different courses drag/handling etc - might be worth an email - I have been talking to Dave so could do that?


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

skyline69_uk said:


> Aurok modified mine (a JDM Ohlins 10 way adjustable) to suit UK B roads. I wonder if these guys (Dave and Toby who do work for motorsports teams) could help the GT-R OC design/modify a suspension to be more changable for different courses drag/handling etc - might be worth an email - I have been talking to Dave so could do that?


There is little point in improving for example Kieth's car to do better in the handling section as it is a full on drag/Top speed contender. This means sacrifices are made in all areas, not just suspension setting. Even with 'track' suspension, there is no doubt the car still wouldn't make the points scoring places. Anyway, anyone capable of scoring maximum points for 2 out of the 3 events is going to win overall. So who cares if they didn't score 1 point in the handling section.

Perhaps a fairer way of running the TOTB points for best overall individual, would be to award points in each section up to say 30 places, and make that you have to score at least 1 point in ALL categories to even be considered, (with no tyre changes), this would eliminate the specialist cars. Or perhaps Drag style timing, where it is not ET that determines a win, but ET+Reaction Time compared to your average. Set a high average and beat it by miles, and your disqualified. 

But you still want specialist cars like Kieths to enter. So much fun to hear and see, and good for the overall team points


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

That's a very good idea NISFAN. Extending the points would root out the specialist cars as after all the idea of TOTB was to find the best all round car.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

ATCO said:


> Fuel - not again! This has all been well documented. If someone's idea of entertainment is watching someone det a £50,000 engine into oblivion because they "must" use pump fuel then they need a dose of reality or are refugees from the Celebrity Jungle/Sun/Chav Weekly.


Funny I don't read any of those...!

I mention it as it was obvious some very special mixtures were going on last year and I don't think it's fair - OK race fuel but everybody gets to use the same type then IMHO. Don't build an engine needing a special mix is the other argument!! Either this is TOTB for cars which could go on the road, or it's a specialist tuner show with cars of narrow ability. The average joe is getting completely obliterated by trailered 'special fuels' cars. The most impressive cars IMHO are those you could go down the shops in. Like the Fensport Corolla, which can run on normal petrol quite happily. Anyway thats my opinion and I'm not going to change it, despite cheap insults.

T


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## Haribo (Oct 15, 2004)

skyline69_uk said:


> Aurok modified mine (a JDM Ohlins 10 way adjustable) to suit UK B roads. I wonder if these guys (Dave and Toby who do work for motorsports teams) could help the GT-R OC design/modify a suspension to be more changable for different courses drag/handling etc - might be worth an email - I have been talking to Dave so could do that?



I always thought eouropean ohlins were regarded as better than jdm


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Haribo said:


> I always thought eouropean ohlins were regarded as better than jdm


I can say that the European one must be better as the JDm one was like driving on solid struts! Aurok did a fanastic job by putting in new valves etc. Dave said the JDM ones are aimed at a mixture of track, super smooth road and drifting as that's what the Japanese mainly use them for while in the UK the roads are so sh*te as to make this suspension impossible to use.


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## Miness (Aug 24, 2005)

ronnys r33 was one of the best all round skylines ever imo..and dont think will be matched for a while


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

ATCO said:


> If they "open it out" we all know that with sweeping curves and anything like a straight the GTR will wipe the floor (ask anyone who has been to Spa and seen what we do to GT3's, Ferrari's, Caterhams, etc. Even the radicals have a hard time against the better driven GTR's).


Dave, 

I'm sorry but that's absolute tosh. I've never given a well driven Radical a scare on a circuit and I do consider myself a reasonable driver with a good track biased GTR. We all come across Miss Daisy's driving various cars on circuit but that's far too much of a generalisation imo. A well driven GT3 will stick with or better most GTRs, look at the results of GT Battle, it was only kamikase Barnes in his zillion quid 34 who beat the three RSs.

This year's TOTB circuit demanded a good responsive engine with a wide torque curve as it was a second gear only layout. Big power cars don't tend to have that but suffer at the hands of lag and poor low down response and torque.


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## Miness (Aug 24, 2005)

im sorry but a well driven radical would kill any liner round a track...or even the ring


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## magoo (Nov 7, 2005)

so it should it weighs about a ounce


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

To put it into proper perspective,

Ive heard from a reliable source.............



............that Uncle Peters testicles weigh the same as a Radical !!!


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## Charlie (Jul 20, 2001)

*To put it into proper perspective,*

A GT3 three will walk any GTR and a Radical would walk them both big time!


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## magoo (Nov 7, 2005)

GT3 WALK ANY GTR


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Don't agree about the GT3, now the RS is a different proposition...


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

I thought Dave Wilkins gave a RS a real bashing at Elvington on this first time there :smokin: .


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

magoo said:


> GT3 WALK ANY GTR


Dont be stupid     

Any time mate bring it on

Mick


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## djdna2000 (Nov 14, 2003)

GT3RS is the real racing car Peter, agreed. And it doesn't even have _one_ turbo  Saw a pair of blue/white ones at the ring in sept making mincemeat of everything - serious width rubber, 380mm/10pot brakes, custom aerodynamics, just amazing.

I think some people are slightly blinkered, or perhaps just unrealistic. A well driven radical is pretty likely going to nail a gtr round any track, but then the gtr can crack 175 mph on the autobahn with the aircon on and nice tunes on the stereo... horses for courses.

Not sure what all that crap about heavy pipes was though? Perhaps that guy's hard pipe kit was made of lead piping?


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

skyline69_uk said:


> I thought Dave Wilkins gave a RS a real bashing at Elvington on this first time there :smokin: .


It was a 993RS, and more or less standard so that is a bit unfair. It was a good battle though but neither the Porsche driver or myself are in the league that Uncle Peter is describing. He is talking about the cars that were in the top 5 at Gt Battle. I would not have been in the top 20 


Thanks for the thought though 

For the amount of power your car has, your car must have a good spread of torque for you to have done so well at TOTB Peter. I have not been out in your car since you fitted the new engine but I guess it must be awesome. 
Shame I don't have the cash to copy you


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## RepLiKa (Dec 31, 2004)

Miness said:


> im sorry but a well driven radical would kill any liner round a track...or even the ring


It would kill MOST things with 4 wheels tbh...especially the V8 version!


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## magoo (Nov 7, 2005)

m6beg said:


> Dont be stupid
> 
> Any time mate bring it on
> 
> Mick


WHAT YOU ON ABOUT

TRY READING ABOVE POSTS PAL


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## Charlie (Jul 20, 2001)

Speaking about nippy cars, this GTR would have swept all before it, shame Porsche took the hump, anyway I guess that’s another story,am not sure if this has posted before, great video have a run round the Nuburgring with Hans-Joachmin Stuck. http://www.bmwtransact.com/microsite/Nurburgring/


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

For what it's worth, Hayashi Racing / Garage Saurus demo R32 GT-R (The orange one) turns in 8.5 second quarters and won the tuner battle's fastest lap at Tsukuba last year at the hands of Nobutero Taniguchi. 

It does get fitted with a different engine, turbo, mapping, etc for each type of event though. Suspension gets changed too, as do geometry settings, tyres, etc.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Blimey, I seem to have started something here!



Peter said:


> Dave,
> I'm sorry but that's absolute tosh.


Say what you mean Peter, don't beat about the bush!  


Peter said:


> I've never given a well driven Radical a scare on a circuit and I do consider myself a reasonable driver with a good track biased GTR.


Er, I didn't say a well driven radical, which given its configuration SHOULD be good in the right hands. However in my limited experience it's often not "in the right hands" - hence my (true it was over generalised) comment. Lower the weight abit, decent suspension and brakes, plus a big dollop of power (and a set of slicks?) on a GTR and I still say it will go well at a sweeping circuit against a Radical. Keep the road tyres and try the wet............ (Radical? I thought it was a Caterham!)
Also I didn't suggest we would wipe the floor with Radicals either, it was a reference to the EVO's who did a pretty good floor wiping job on the circuit course at TOTB4 with 6 in the top 8 places (Clive Seddon notably not being one of them). Do you believe they are that good in comparison? Do you also think that the result would be the same given a more open ciruit? 


Peter said:


> We all come across Miss Daisy's driving various cars on circuit but that's far too much of a generalisation imo.


You can "see" only what turns up at the circuit Peter. Fact is, to generalise, the vast majority are "slower" than the GTR's. 


Peter said:


> A well driven GT3 will stick with or better most GTRs, look at the results of GT Battle, it was only kamikase Barnes in his zillion quid 34 who beat the three RSs.


Is that a well driven GT3 (I mean/meant the road car not the full on race car, lets not be silly!) verses a well driven GTR? A 90grand GT3 and a 15grand GTR? Or a 90grand GT3 and a GTR that's been tuned and tweaked to about half that price? If what AndyB said about only running 1.2Bar at GTbattle is true, that sort of proves what can done with a well set up, tuned car. Likewise Dave Wilkins. I also remember that back in early 2004 at Spa in the wet we really were all over everyone. OK, perhaps if I was sat in something that cost so much I'd be ultracautious in the wet, however fact is it was only as the track dried out they began to look even half quick. I'm not saying, and didn't mean, any GTR will do it, or any driver can do it, however the track days typically show the GTR is a "top dog". What happened this year at Spa? Where there not requests from the Marshalls to ease off because of complaints about "Skylines harassing other drivers"? (Shame on you Harry). There will always be something that is quicker, or a better driver. In fact a good driver in an inferior car can still come out "on top", however, the point of original reference was that on an opened out circuit with sweeping turns the GTR looks a good "weapon of choice". 


Peter said:


> This year's TOTB circuit demanded a good responsive engine with a wide torque curve as it was a second gear only layout. Big power cars don't tend to have that but suffer at the hands of lag and poor low down response and torque.


Agree with you Peter. Plus, that the "margin" suited the lighter, smaller cars. Perhaps it would have been interesting to see how some well driven GT3's would have faired on the TOTB circuit.

'Ere, tosh, got a new mo-ta?  (You are probably too young to remember it)

DaveG ("drives like my granny" A. Barnes, Spa, circa 2004, praise indeed.... )


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Reckon you need to take the driver out of the equation Dave when comparing cars, doesn't make sense otherwise. A stock GT3 will give my car a run for it's money on a circuit, reckon I'd have it but there wouldn't be that much in it. The RS would have my car no doubt...

Yes, a wet makes a considerable difference and is to our advantage.

I am older than you tosh!


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

magoo said:


> WHAT YOU ON ABOUT
> 
> TRY READING ABOVE POSTS PAL



I HAVE PAL  


JAZZ


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## magoo (Nov 7, 2005)

YOUR NUMPTY THEM LOL


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## Tommy F (Oct 31, 2005)

*skylines in the wet*

some off you boys must be great drivers
was at knockhill not long ago[rained all day]
done more 360 degrees than an ice skater 
foot to the floor was fun
getting the power down in the wet[not fun]
maybe need to practise more 
have a nice night
bye now


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Tommy F said:


> some off you boys must be great drivers
> was at knockhill not long ago[rained all day]
> done more 360 degrees than an ice skater
> foot to the floor was fun
> ...


Andy's TSC


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter said:


> I am older than you tosh!


Naaah, Peter. I'm just ageing better than you due all my good, clean, healthy living.........       

Wet driving Tommy? If yours is that one Keith had sent over from Adel I think the right foot to grip sensor needs more fine tuning! There is a lot more than standard horses under there and I don't think it came with uprated suspension did it? Bassman can probably offer you some wet weather pointers....... (ouch, ow, ouch.... OK, OK, I won't mention it again  , well not for at least a month!  )

DaveG


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

davewilkins said:


> For the amount of power your car has, your car must have a good spread of torque for you to have done so well at TOTB Peter. I have not been out in your car since you fitted the new engine but I guess it must be awesome.
> Shame I don't have the cash to copy you


Sorry Dave, missed this...

She holds 90% or more of peak torque from 4.2k to 7.5k so I guess that's a fairly good spread...

I'm still paying for the engine, etc.


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## SteveC (Jul 2, 2001)

The trouble with us lot is we get very blinkered about how quick GTR's are.

They are quick no doubt but there are a LOT of cars out there that will give a 500-600 bhp skyline a good run for it's money.

Admittedly there are some circuits that are more suited to the GTR and some that are more caterham,radical friendly. 

But the thing that made me realise GTR's are a bit lardy was coming around clearways on the brands hatch GP circuit as a passenger in a GTR all four tyres were squealing and the car was getting twitchy, A juno (3 litre) drove around us like we were a chicane and then p1ssed off up the straight.

they are dedicated track cars. and there are lots of cars that are super quick.
Guy's Ruf tuned porker in unbelievably fast, there is always someone faster on a track day.

As for the wet then the GTR it brilliant in the wet, Dirk Schoysman said it best in the Duke video, "nothing comes out of corners in the wet faster than a GTR". but you must be ultra confident in the wet because if you lift off then you are going to be facing the wrong way.

There is a lot of stuff out there that will humble our cars on a track, but they are the best multi role car out there IMHO...

/Steve


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

At 1.2Bar setting the Garage Bomber still hasn't hit peak torque at 8250RPM....  although it starts getting lively over 4000  

Must be something wrong with the set up, maybe it needs a higher octane diesel, or is that not what was meant by pump fuel?


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

lot of GTRs are being turned into pure drag cars.. soon they will look like funny cars with tube frame chassis...lol 

A GTR with good work done to the chassis and suspension would make a great track car, but also as peter suggested should have a good spread of torque and drivability.


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

DaveWilkins said:


> Shame I don't have the cash to copy you





Peter said:


> Sorry Dave, missed this...
> I'm still paying for the engine, etc.


Me too 
I should have said, shame I don't have the credit card limit to copy you 
I don't as I chopped up all but one card earlier in the year to curb my spending


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

davewilkins said:


> I don't as I chopped up all but one card earlier in the year to curb my spending


Have stopped using all credit cards, only ever use a debit card now, far too easy to get into debt...


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Ten of the Best is fundamentally flawed.

It needs to be more clearly defined what is and is not acceptable. Running one headlight? Drag rims and tyres? Race spec fuel?

Its a real problem, but would need real depth in writing rules to prevent it. Race fuel, I'd say fine, agree'd, who'd want to det their massive cost engine. But you CANNOT but that fuel from a filling station. Hence, wouldnt it make more sense to demand they run the same map they would for Optimax but allow the higher ron fuel for safety.

Super Street magazine in the USA's ultimate street car contest and GT Battle seem more defined concepts. Super Street tests genuine road spec cars in actual road spec. GT Battle is a more no holds barred contest.

I'm not bashing TOTB, I really enjoy the event. But I dont believe it defines anything more than the kind of fastest car on the day, in certain disciplines.

Fastest road legal car in the UK imho is the Fensport Corolla. Only car to score points in all 3 disciplines at TOTB 4.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Gets my vote.

http://www.megaboost.co.uk/totb/Rules totb4.doc

Cars


> All cars must be road legal and taxed/tested and insured to compete in the event. A valid tax disc for the vehicle must be on show at all times during the event. Documents should also be made available on the day for inspection if required. (Mot, V5 logbook, Insurance certificate). Tyres must be “E” or DOT marked, and fully road legal, with legal tread depth at all times, including the finals. No slick tyres or bald/dangerous tyres will be allowed, nor tyres marked for “competition use only”.


Fuel


> Fuel- Use of road fuels is expected and encouraged.


But enforcement is poor. Look at it this way, would cars using race fuel pass MOT emissions tests?

T


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

emicen said:


> Fastest road legal car in the UK imho is the Fensport Corolla. Only car to score points in all 3 disciplines at TOTB 4.


I personally think Pete Everett could put in a good counterclaim to that title, assuming we discount Mike in Tim's "spare".
Peter was only split off from Adrian by 0.6mph, bearing in mind Peter has gone faster in the past.
It is true that I think Peter would have had difficulty beating Adrian's 10.47 quarter, however Adrian scored the last point in two events and whilst still recognising that achievement, fact is he made it because several others failed, like for example RonK and GaryP who both would have both expected to have done better in the quarters, top speed and maybe even the circuit but for mechanical failure which could easily have meant no one scored in all three!


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Sorry but you can't run this power on standard road fuel. Yes it would be a great idea if we did but the facts are almost every high power car there would go home on a trailor. People seem to think special fuel is unfair. That it may be but what is for sure is standard fuel on high powered cars as seen at TOTB would mean the end of a lot of engines. If you force people to used standard fuel you will end up with Saxos, Novas and a few RSs and no-one would come to watch.

High-octane fuel is necessary. A necessary evil according to some people but necessary all the same.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

If that's true - then everybody should use the same high octane fuel. As I think I said previously, some very peculiar mixes present at the last TOTB gives an unfair competition. All IMHO.

T


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Nah, any car can be run and mapped safely on whatever octane fuel, just wouldn't make the same boost, power, etc. but it won't happen.


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Fuggles said:


> Sorry but you can't run this power on standard road fuel. Yes it would be a great idea if we did but the facts are almost every high power car there would go home on a trailor. People seem to think special fuel is unfair. That it may be but what is for sure is standard fuel on high powered cars as seen at TOTB would mean the end of a lot of engines. If you force people to used standard fuel you will end up with Saxos, Novas and a few RSs and no-one would come to watch.
> 
> High-octane fuel is necessary. A necessary evil according to some people but necessary all the same.


I didnt disagree they needed to run higher octane fuel, what I said was:

Special maps dependant on race fuel are ridiculous since you cannot buy Blue 106 at the local Texaco. Also, iirc, a lot of these fuels rely on additives and lead content for stability which is not road legal?

Peter vs Adrian, it could also be argue'd that Adrian has gone faster on different occasions. Although, I would have to conclude the 3 cars mentioned are probably by far the most rounded competitors out of the jap contingent.


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Out of interest, were the Vipers running race fuel? Or the Ruf Porsches the year previous?


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## mcanny (Jan 5, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> If you force people to used standard fuel you will end up with Saxos, Novas and a few RSs and no-one would come to watch..


So by this are you saying that these cars are quicker than a Skyline on normal fuel?

How odd.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

I would love to see this event run on 'standard' pump fuel. The real skill would shine thought IMHO.


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## GTR R34 (Oct 2, 2002)

Why don't you enter some of thet dragcars like keith cowie r32 and the rk tuning r32 and atco r34 for the dragstip and top speed stuff.
And you enter shin's r34 nismo/mines and the matchless crowd racing r34 from schotland maby the rk tuning r32 for the handling track also.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

Howsie said:


> I would love to see this event run on 'standard' pump fuel. The real skill would shine thought IMHO.


I would have to agree with Howsie to some level on this one. At the end of the day TOTB was meant to find the best road car which means what you would find running legally on the road. I know it will mean that engines end up being de-tuned (they will not blow up if mapped correctly but the bhp will go down). Even if the fuel that was allowed was any road legal type e.g. Optimax + CVL turbo etc then it would stop the competition going down the specialist route and losing sight of it's original idea. Any proper races I've been at including karting ones have the fuel checked after the race to make sure no one is having a big advantage over the others.


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## soggy (Apr 28, 2003)

IMHO...If the TOTB event is to find the fastest "street legal" car in the country then it should only be pump fuel and octane boosters available at your local garage.
Using "special" exotic fuels is cheating on the same scale as an athlete would use steriods.
Yes, TOTB might be a bit more boring to watch but then everything would be in perspective.
Everyone likes seeing sub 10 sec 100 metre sprinters as much as sub 10 sec quarters but ask yourself just how "honest" is it.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Well i know one car that will not be running on pump fuel 

Keith


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

mine.......lol


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Hey, don't take my comments the wrong way, if you the rules allow it then fair play. I would like to see super car performance on super unleaded fuel, to me, that's everyday performance and a street racer.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Howsie,

it is something that needs to be sorted, but it is such a long winded affair to police the type of fuel people are running it is better to make the fuel "open" anything goes. 

The TOTB event is very good for road cars , all cars should have to do all 3 disciplines( bad spelling) to qualify for overall results. May be extra points for doing all 3 disciplines .


Mark


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## smileyculture (Oct 25, 2003)

Abbey M/S said:


> The TOTB event is very good for road cars , all cars should have to do all 3 disciplines( bad spelling) to qualify for overall results.Mark


The voice of reason!!about time someone saw sense.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> Howsie,
> 
> it is something that needs to be sorted, but it is such a long winded affair to police the type of fuel people are running it is better to make the fuel "open" anything goes.
> 
> ...


I agree. Perhaps something as simple as, each car must turn up with an almost empty tank and must be able to take on 30l of pump fuel supplied by the event organisers. Something along those lines I guess.

I think it's a great event, if the facilites were suited its popularity then I'd be there every time.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

another way is the car needed to be drained of fuel while at the event until the car will not run. Then the organiser will supply a controlled fuel , this will be known to the competitors prior to the event so the cars can be tuned on this fuel , it could be 100octane MSA fuel not very expensive and a little better than 97 octane fuel , I am sure one of the Fuel suppliers will be willing to do a sponsorship deal for the event.

And this is not a dig at any other tuners/competitors, we have run some very special fuels over the years espec when running the laughing gas. But this way puts everyone on a level playing field.

Also makes it more of a controlled envireoment. I know this goes againsnt what Isaid in a reply a few hours or so ago but been thinking about it and this is what I came up with.

Any replies from people ( competitors / tuners ) will be good to help us agree on a idea


Markiemark


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

If you want to cheat you can, false fuel tanks etc etc etc.

Easiest way is a control fuel and fuel testing. Fuel supplied on site as you say, but at the end of the day, you pop the fuel return pipe and take 1 litre of fuel which can be tested very basically on site, or sent off for further investigation at a testing house.

However, it starts to get expensive, and you are now in the realms of proper motorsport regs, and if people want to do that, they may as well just go and find some proper motorsport to run in.


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## smileyculture (Oct 25, 2003)

Its not just the fuel though.

Mark hit the nail on the head 'every car should have to do every discipline to qualify for points'

Last year the car that won never went round the handling course,just shows the event is bollocks.


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## hissingsyd (Nov 4, 2003)

*totb*

this is the opening line describing the basis of this event

'Ten of the Best (TOTB) is a performance road car event, aimed at finding the best allround car in Europe. Handling, top speed and the 1/4m drag strip are used to determine the outcome.'

Unless a competitor takes part and scores in all three disciplines how can they be awarded the title.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Abbey M/S said:


> And this is not a dig at any other tuners/competitors, we have run some very special fuels over the years espec when running the laughing gas. But this way puts everyone on a level playing field.
> 
> Any replies from people ( competitors / tuners ) will be good to help us agree on a idea
> 
> ...


Well i say ban cheating gas   

I know that in Dubai they made the rules that if your car is turbo charged 
you cant use Nos.

Someone had better look into this rule before going out to TOTB – Arabia. 

Keith


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Okay we wont use it then.All the cars we use can run with or without gas.

Whats wrong with running gas we can run it on pump fuel as well.

Dont think we are going to TOTB Emirates with Ronnies car , still in it,s new build , motor is taking a little longer to get right. 

Keith , this isnt a dig at you or any fellow competitor , the rules need sorting to get more people running at the various events that are run all over the year. 

What we need is more cars running in the TOTB type of event sand at the drag meetings/series. 

But please dont think this is agaisnt you , we are building a car for next year but it wont be finalised in it build until the rules are published for the relavant series. why build a car that isnt 100% witihn the rules, if we cant runs gas we wont if we cant run race fuel we wont , if we cant run a sequentail box we wont.

I like competition done if for years in Moto-x, karting ,saloon car racing. Always tried to be the best won a few trophies as well.

Also going sprinting next year in my track car 32 it is nice and orange and will be good fun , might even run that at TOTB will not win the 1/4 or top speed but will do a good job at all 3 disicplines.

Roll on 2006 it is going to be fun.

Mark

PS did you sell the Holinger box for the orginal price?
PPS give me a ring it you want to have a chat about my thoughts?


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

smileyculture said:


> Its not just the fuel though.
> 
> Mark hit the nail on the head 'every car should have to do every discipline to qualify for points'
> 
> Last year the car that won never went round the handling course,just shows the event is bollocks.


I don't have a problem going round the handling course but there was no point. 
I would have gained nothing from it so why bother.

Tell you what next year I will do the handling course and half way round 
I will stop and do a burn out just to keep you all happy   

It Just makes it more of a achievement to win the event by only using
the 1/4 mile,top speed then going on to win the drag shootout in style  

Keith


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Abbey M/S said:


> Keith , this isnt a dig at you or any fellow competitor , the rules need sorting to get more people running at the various events that are run all over the year.
> 
> PS did you sell the Holinger box for the orginal price?
> PPS give me a ring it you want to have a chat about my thoughts?



Hi Mark

I know that this is not a dig at me 
R.B Motorsport are building my car to set more new records next year
it is being built to a higher spec than what it was this year.

The car will be built to a spec and we are not going to change it for 1 event

It is as simple as this,if there are new rules set in place and if my car does 
not fall within these rules I will not enter TOTB next year.

Sorry mark the gearbox was sold for tha asking price

Keith


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

just out of interest we had already discussed awarding bonus points for scoring in ALL 3 events overall for future totbs. it's something that would reflect the achievement of scoring in them all, which is very difficult given the strength of the entry field each time. (the actual bonus score for doing so is yet to be decided.) Ronnie's and the Fensport car are the only 2 so far to do so as mentioned. This is taking nothing away whatsoever from Keiths achievment this year, he would have actually won a previous totb also had he won the drag shootout bonus.


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

I have been reading with interest this thread
and would like to say that i also will not be entering TOTB unless the points scoring format is changed to prevent a drag car win in this allround car event!!
As far as fuel goes my car has only been mapped on optimax + octane booster and dont mind what other competitors run as we all have the choice.
The cost of building these engines why not keep them safe with race fuel no problem.
I dont have any answers for the points sytem but i think the idea somebody mentiond of scoring down to 30 places in each event was a good start
30-29-28-27 etc 
hope this can be resolved to keep this event the way it was designed in it,s
early days.
Ron


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

hi Ron!
great result at pod btw 

the points system is one that we will be discussing with the team reps etc early in the new year. however, tims NUR could also have changed the outcome had he set a good time on the handling, his car is very well setup allround and could poss match ronnies points scoring overall. 4th or 5th placed overall on each of the events would have been enough to win on points and beat Keiths total this year, no one actually achived that which does put ronnies previous scoring into perspective as a great all round car.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Well said Ron.

Hopefully i will enter in the Lemon if i am invited!!!
and as you know its no drag car.
The reason for totb was to find the best road going car not all out DRAG car...There are other events for this.
Points should be deducted if you dont score in all 3.
Put the leather seats back in. And turn the tv on   

No doubt in my mind Ronnies car is the one to beat....

That is THE TOTB car.


Mick


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> This is taking nothing away whatsoever from Keiths achievment this year, he would have actually won a previous totb also had he won the drag shootout bonus.


Was this not because the two ronnies had car problems though? This should have fired a warning across your bows Chris and we did have a chat about the probablility of this situation arising.

Just don't let a Drag car win, simple. You make the rules, so make them tough, make them fit the event. Otherwise you may as well just go to Santa Pod and ask for a bit more straight after the 1/4 mile point which would be boring as the 200mph plus speeds are a marketable area of TOTB . 

Personally I think it is a crying shame a Drag car won TOTB, irrespective of who it was (and I'm not stroking your ego by the way Keith saying how well you done  ) , as the point of the event has got lost somewhat in the hype of having big bhp in lieu of overall ability. 

Glen


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

I sometimes wonder if Tim was to have won the event in his Top Secret R33
would we all still be having this conversation. 

Keith


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## Tim (Jan 6, 2003)

Not quite sure exactly what you meant by that Keith but it would have been very difficult for me to win in the Top Secret car as I didn't enter it.
Spike drove it simply to help the GTR register in the team event.
It was quicker on paper than my Nur but I chose to enter that as it's my every day car, which, after all is what the event is supposed to be about.

Regardless of what the Duke car does when it comes over it will certainly NOT be entering TOTB next year. It's a drag car.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

keith said:


> I sometimes wonder if Tim was to have won the event in his Top Secret R33
> would we all still be having this conversation.
> 
> Keith




Nope it would be the.........

"Should they let bought in drag cars win our home grown events" conversation instead !!!

What do you care ??? You're a scotsman thats well known and well respected in England - you usually have to have been killed first for that to happen !!!

    

Welcome to the register Mr Kiddell, congrats on some impressive results btw.

J.

Oh, and I have always thought TOTB was unique in its approach - and banged on for the last couple of years that Chris and Simon should make sure the entrants were true road cars and should be allrounders rather than one event specials. I used to bang on about alot of other things as well until I found out how hard it is to actually do !!!     

Must of missplaced my ticket to Dubai !!


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

For the last 3 years my car has entered TOTB.

It has always had a MOT,Tax and Insurance,plus I have never 
used full drag tyres.

As I have said before I will enter TOTB next year if my car still 
falls within the rules.

If it does not then I will not enter simple as that.

Keith


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Just ban those silly baloon grag tyres, and car must run std bodywork ie not 100's of holes cut ever where, and lot of panels removed..

It should resemble a road car... the calder supra and Keiths R32 is bording a pure out and out drag car...

Ronnies car was good, looked like a road car, and won 3 times? too!:smokin:


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

GTR-Zilla said:


> It should resemble a road car... the calder supra and Keiths R32 is bording a pure out and out drag car...


Ha ha pick on the 2 fastest Scottish cars why don't you 

I have had a good look through the list of cars that entered TOTB
and I can see about 15 cars that should also not be there in your eyes.

fully stripped race cars.

2 seat kit cars.

Cars that are now 4wd

Cars that are now rear wheel drive

But I suppose they don't count as they have not won it yet 


Keith


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

WTF Keith.....IF YOU CANT BEAT ME BAN ME ha,ha,ha.


Mark


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

It's quite simple really. Certain cars turn up just to win the track event and this is perhaps not really acceptable but understandable in a way as they are not going for the overall title but, to set out to win TOTB by having a Drag car and taking overall honours by default of the points system is not in the true spirit of the event.

Rocket Ronnies, Fensports, Norris's, RK's, PeterE's, Tim's cars (and a lot more to boot) are true to form and it will be a shame if they do not run at TOTB again as these are the cars that TOTB was actually founded around and why it became the success it is.

Glen


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## tigger (Jan 3, 2002)

maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was 10 of the best of each car club? 

would there be any way of separating out the tuners/sponsored cars into their own trophy winning section and have more room for the car clubs 10 best cars? not sure if this is do able or practical, but just a suggestion as a lot of people just see the event as out of their reach now...???

not having a dig at anyone, as I would have to be put in the tuners section and mine aint gonna beat anyone in that class lol


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

keith said:


> Ha ha pick on the 2 fastest Scottish cars why don't you
> 
> I have had a good look through the list of cars that entered TOTB
> and I can see about 15 cars that should also not be there in your eyes.
> ...



not at all keith nothing to do you being a scotsman!! rewind your car back to 2003 ie body and suspension and tyre spec 

I agree ban the kit cars and funny cars like the golf with 2 engines...

we will probably have jet engined cars next lol...


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

tigger said:


> maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was 10 of the best of each car club?
> 
> would there be any way of separating out the tuners/sponsored cars into their own trophy winning section and have more room for the car clubs 10 best cars? not sure if this is do able or practical, but just a suggestion as a lot of people just see the event as out of their reach now...???
> 
> not having a dig at anyone, as I would have to be put in the tuners section and mine aint gonna beat anyone in that class lol


Good idea!! I guess trying to compete with out any backing/sponsorship you would need massive budget, there should be two classes Pro and Independent


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

GTR-Zilla said:


> I agree ban the kit cars and funny cars like the golf with 2 engines...
> 
> we will probably have jet engined cars next lol...


Rubbish.

Its about road legal cars, they road legal.

IMO the only ways to make it fair is quite hard...

Road legal and useable tyres (ie not jus DOT approved)
As per Street Racer Sunday rules etc, 30mile road drive or summat including filling up with Pump fuel (how can it be a road car on race fuel?) to prove its a road car.

Also, change the scoring so the top 20 or so cars score in each event, thus making scoring in all 3 far far more important (ive done the sums and this has a fairly big effect on placings).

Obviously no bonus points for drag race final winners etc etc either as that favours certain cars.

Its still all down to cash tho, whoevers able/willing to put in the most money is likely to win as there is no restrictions.
Things like pump fuel and road legal tyres slightly levels the playing field, but not by a huge amount.


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## tigger (Jan 3, 2002)

if there were 2 seperate classes, like pro or club then the club could run under far stricter rules than the pro class, thus making it far more entertaining to the crowds in the pro class, more involvement for the clubs who would have to abide by strict rules to make it fair between them all and thus there would be no more bickering on what fuel etc can or cant be used as the bickering only seems to be centered around the top cars anyway


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

SteveN said:


> Rubbish.
> 
> Its about road legal cars, they road legal.
> 
> ...


Hi SteveN
as mentioned we are in agreement with a review of the points scoring system, one of our initial thoughts was a reduction in the bonus for a drag shootout win from 3 points to 1, and implementing a bonus score for placing on all 3 events overall, something worhtwhile like 5 bonus points maybe. We are also looking at how an extended points score list overall would work practically. Its something we will be doing after TOTB Arabia tour in January, and feeding back to the clubs/groups etc for comment then.

One other point of interest is that we are encouraging people to use regular pump fuels. People should also bear in mind the practicalities of trying to get 120cars to empty their petrol tanks and refuel on site under control conditions, or test for fuels (constantly thro the day) while still running an event. It would be good in theory, but look at track/cct racing at national level or clubman and see what they do. People cheat the rules at all forms of motorsport where fuel restrictions/amounts etc apply.

also we haven't yet allowed spaceframed tubbed rear end drag cars in the event (ie those that run in street racer sunday) despite them having an MOT in theory and being driven for 25miles to fill up with petrol/cruise. my mate tony has such a car that will eventually run in this class and i know where he gets his MOT from and how often he drives it on the road


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

I got a roasting last time I opined on this, glad things have moved on 

Nito


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

NITO said:


> I got a roasting last time I opined on this, glad things have moved on
> 
> Nito


Hi Nito!  
We're still chuffed Keith won totb4, he deserved it and was a worthy winner on the day.  Should keith have needed to he'd have had a crack on the handling too no doubt, had someone been pressing him on points scored. Rocket rons performances over 3 years of events also proved that a fabulous road car run by an individual (and maintained by an expert gargage) was the best overall car on the day. We have only had overall points scoring from totb2 onward anyway, and a fresh look at the scoring isnt unworkable we're sure.


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## Jakester (Sep 27, 2003)

> People should also bear in mind the practicalities of trying to get 120cars to empty their petrol tanks and refuel on site under control conditions, or test for fuels (constantly thro the day) while still running an event.


So, just have the finalists have to run on pump gas. If the cars have to run on supplied pump gas in the final it is unlikely they are going to run all day on race gas only to blow the motor in the final.


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## Charlie (Jul 20, 2001)

Jakester said:


> So, just have the finalists have to run on pump gas. If the cars have to run on supplied pump gas in the final it is unlikely they are going to run all day on race gas only to blow the motor in the final.


That's a good post Jakester, unfortunately there comes a point when all fuels have their limitations, if for arguments sake the public want to witness a 220mph pass the bhp required for such a task is just not practical for the majority of turbo engines on pump fuel. Jeez how long before someone want to switch to Nitromethane, this is supposed to be a road car event for all to participate. I also understand Chris has a mammoth task to please all the would be competitors, although should there be a rule on fuelling; one only has to scrutineer the car that collects points. Any tricks/cheats found at this time would deem instant disqualification on the day/all future events and that should include Nitrous Oxide, even the safety aspect of the stuff is a horror story there are no pits, no off limits areas at TOTB,no safety cages, far to many wummin and kids running around for the likes of Nitrous Oxide bottles, fyi I just nipped this fact sheet off the web.
_____________________________________________
Effects of nitrous oxide on the human body

The painkilling and numbing qualities of nitrous oxide that is inhaled begin to take effect when the gas is at concentrations of 10 percent. At higher concentrations, approaching 100 percent, a sense of well-being, or "high," is experienced. A person experiencing a nitrous oxide high may:

Have slurred speech

Have difficulty in maintaining his or her balance or walking

Be slow to respond to questions

Be immune to any stimulus such as pain, loud noises, and speech

Lapse into unconsciousness

A person who is rendered unconscious by nitrous oxide is likely to stop breathing within a few seconds as a result of a depressed central nervous system--brain, brain stem, and spinal cord. Depression is caused by a combination of the effects of nitrous oxide and the lowered oxygen content that occurs as pure N2O displaces oxygen from the lungs with each succeeding inhalation of the gas; i.e., the person is asphyxiated.

If a person remains conscious and stops breathing the nitrous oxide, recovery (full consciousness and alertness) can occur within minutes. A person who loses consciousness, however, and continues to inhale a pure gas (providing a supply is still available) is most likely to die.

Death usually occurs when abusers, in their attempt to achieve a higher state of euphoria, breathe pure N2O in a confined space -- in a small room, inside an automobile or other vehicle cab, or by placing their head inside a plastic bag.

Tragedy can occur very quickly. Long-term exposure (several minutes) is not necessary before death occurs. Sudden, prolonged exposure to high levels of N2O, or a series of inhalations (without breathing clean air between inhalations) can result in death. The length of this action can be measured in seconds. Since the narcotic effect of nitrous oxide is very brief (several seconds) abusers tend to follow this repetitive action pattern.

Scientific explanation of the effects of nitrous oxide on the human body.

Nitrous oxide that is inhaled is absorbed through the lungs and is rapidly distributed throughout the body. A number of chemical reactions take place within the body when various organs tissues, etc., come in contact with nitrous oxide. One of the fundamental, harmful reactions that occur when nitrous oxide enters the body is oxidation. N2O tends to absorb oxygen that is present in the body. This oxidation, or oxygen absorption, results in a vitamin B12 deficiency. When the level of vitamin B12 in the body is reduced, the red blood cell count is lowered, anemia results, and nerves degenerate. A vitamin B12 deficiency causes a person to; have painful sensations in the arms or legs; have an unsteady walk or gait; become unbalanced and tend to fallover; feel or appear to be irritable; suffer intellectual deterioration.

If death does not occur, the person who suffers from these symptoms may recover from all of them. The debilitating process is reversible, although some persons have experienced permanent loss of balance.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Chris,

Why do invite cars get to take points off genuine competitors for the various TOTB titles? Why is the competition still called Ten of the Best when it's clearly not a prerequisite to have to enter a team of ten cars to obtain a place in the competition? Invite cars pull in spectators, yes...


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Some teams get limited to 5 cars for that matter...do the invited cars could form part of a club team?

T


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

If my car got invited i would be going for it to win.
I would expect points to win the prize.
What do points make prizes   

Whats the point in doing it invited or not i think the way it is managed is very very good 

Well thats my point veiw anyway...

And the Lemon runs on pump fuel or Race fuel.

And it wouldnt bother me if i had to drive 100.000 miles to go to Totb.

Its the best event of the year

Mick


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Peter said:


> Chris,
> 
> Why do invite cars get to take points off genuine competitors for the various TOTB titles? Why is the competition still called Ten of the Best when it's clearly not a prerequisite to have to enter a team of ten cars to obtain a place in the competition? Invite cars pull in spectators, yes...



hi Peter

the "invited" cars are genuine competitors looking to win overall, not a sub class blocking points scoring, and they are not all tuner entries by any means. we have invited cars in all classes, not just the 4wd big power boys. the term "invited" may then be a bit misleading and may have caused some confusion by the look of it. its a group of cars that dont fall under any club category but who wish to compete for the overall title or class trophies in some cases. some of them specifically wish to have nothing to do with their "usual club/marque", for personal reasons sometimes, some of them dont even have a club available to them, some of them dont use the 'tinternet and come direct to us with entries.

there are some cars in that "invite" group as well who are tuner cars who wish to stand alone, stand out or whatever. We do work hard though to include the tuner entries within the teams and groups, ie simon norris will represent the MLR, Calder with the Supras group and the like. This is done mainly to keep good strong teams/group spirit and helps keep the overall entry list manageable to around 120 cars, as we have more entrants than spaces available. "Invited" group cars could in effect be called anything, its just not under a club name, and therefore these cars do not count or restrict points in team point scoring. There is no reason however why they should not be eligable for individual awards/trophies etc, thats why they take part.

The newer clubs may be limited to a lower number of cars sometimes, also some clubs dont always have ten cars that meet the min entry criteria. we do try our best to be fair and will be sorting the team space allocations with reps in feb/march 2006, to allow us time to sort it for July 30th for the event.
regards


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## magoo (Nov 7, 2005)

I second that its a top event

m6beg post that is


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

magoo said:


> I second that its a top event
> 
> m6beg post that is



thanks for that! 
we know its not perfect, but we do/will try to improve year on year. We'll be talking to people specifically about the plans etc in feb/march, along with the team reps for space allocations etc etc.
rgds


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

m6beg said:


> If my car got invited i would be going for it to win.
> I would expect points to win the prize.
> What do points make prizes
> 
> ...



The Lemon probably goes well on the circuit too?


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Chris, suppose I want to enter, what is the pre requisite?? must my car do a qtr mile in less than 11 seconds? if i remember right there were a few R32's that did high 12's low 13's... how did they get entered?? or it is the case of who you know?


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

For last year I think it was...

Proven 11sec or better for 4wd.
Proven 12sec or better for RWD
Proven 13sec or better for FWD

But unless you a tuner entry or something particularly special youd enter as part of a team, and then youd also need to be one of the fastest of the options they got.

In the 13s? I didnt see any, apart from runs that went very wrong


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

if I remember correctly Dave Wilkins entered didnt he? his R32 is not a sub 11 second car is it??


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## Floyd (Dec 15, 2004)

For TOTB4, qualifying for 4wd was proven 12.5 sec or better 1/4 mile time.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Floyd said:


> For TOTB4, qualifying for 4wd was proven 12.5 sec or better 1/4 mile time.


Seriously? Not worth turning up if your 4wd cant run an 11.9 or better (thats what i meant BTW yunis, not an 11.0 or better...)


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Thanks Chris although you didn't explain why it's still called Ten of the Best when individual cars can enter and score points...

There is no specific qualifying time and it's interesting why everybody is focusing on the 1/4 time when that's only a 1/3 of the competition. Granted it gives an indication of the car and driver's capabilities but consideration is given to the other 2 disciplines also. Anybody wishing to be considered for a place in our team next year will need to have a very competitive car and be able to use it properly too!


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Btw, Dave may not have had any proven times for the 1/4 but he is a very capable driver with a track oriented car so I guess that's why he got a place in the 200+ team...


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## djdna2000 (Nov 14, 2003)

I think we need a 4th discipline where the owner's missus (or bloke) has to drive the car to the local tesco, park it in a really narrow space, get 6 carrier bags full of shopping in and then sit in slow-moving traffic in a local town centre for 30 mins, THAT will separate out the real road cars


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## djdna2000 (Nov 14, 2003)

Oh and my money is on Adrian's Corolla to win the above discipline!


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

SteveN said:


> Seriously? Not worth turning up if your 4wd cant run an 11.9 or better (thats what i meant BTW yunis, not an 11.0 or better...)


I`ve done a 12.5 in mine, so if I can get below that I can enter next year? I know its worthless against the 9 second cars, but just for some fun!!:smokin:


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

djdna2000 said:


> I think we need a 4th discipline where the owner's missus (or bloke) has to drive the car to the local tesco, park it in a really narrow space, get 6 carrier bags full of shopping in and then sit in slow-moving traffic in a local town centre for 30 mins, THAT will separate out the real road cars



Yep that would be very good.

Mick


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Yunis- No, as like I said, youd need to be part of a team unless your something very special, and its unlikely youd find a team where your car would be one of the 10 best.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

djdna2000 said:


> I think we need a 4th discipline where the owner's missus (or bloke) has to drive the car to the local tesco, park it in a really narrow space, get 6 carrier bags full of shopping in and then sit in slow-moving traffic in a local town centre for 30 mins, THAT will separate out the real road cars


Claire does 11 second quarters in my car. Would you like to tell her in person?


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

SteveN said:


> Yunis- No, as like I said, youd need to be part of a team unless your something very special, and its unlikely youd find a team where your car would be one of the 10 best.


So even if I built a 11 second car and one that handles well for the twisties, id have no hope in hell...???

thats not very fair is it.. there should be proper qualifying on all types of desciplines not just a drag shoot out to determine who gets a place..


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

No. It dont take a genius to see what they do, so you either being difficult or stupid.

The GTR organiser would let you in over a faster 1/4mile car if you looked more likely to score point at the handling then the other car.

Not hard to work out is it.


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## djdna2000 (Nov 14, 2003)

Fuggles said:


> Claire does 11 second quarters in my car. Would you like to tell her in person?


You're doing the Tesco run then


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## Lex DakarDatsun (May 22, 2002)

been watching this thread with interest 

does anyone think that there is a UK built GTR+driver combo that could give a certain escort cossie 










a run for its money on a track / coned out handling course ? 

cheers Lex


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Peter did very well on the handling at TOTB, so im sure the cossie can be matched with a setup optimised for track


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Lex DakarDatsun said:


>



Is that the stripped out, roll caged, touring car spec Cosworth that beat Ronnie's full road trim 33 by only 1 second? Gareth somebody or other?


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Gareth Lloyd.
Won GT Battle as well as handling at the first TOTB.
About 500bhp.

1second a lap is a fair amount...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Gareth was, from memory, 5 seconds clear of everybody at GTB, the car has had mega money spent on it and clearly in a totally league from my car (and can't be used for shopping!). You could buy my car several times over just with the cost of his gearbox...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Oh, and he's a 'pretty good' driver to boot!


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

so if he's car is a semi race car why was it allowed to mix with fast road/street cars?


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Same reason as the others do...


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

SteveN said:


> 1second a lap is a fair amount...


Of course it is.............But 1 second difference between those totally different kinds of vehicles - one stripped out touring car and one road car - is not so impressive. I would expect the Cosworth to win every time but it was a bloody good show by Ronnie.


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

It does help that he's a professional racing driver to boot!


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

I was trying to keep my nose out but......



Peter said:


> Btw, Dave may not have had any proven times for the 1/4 but he is a very capable driver with a track oriented car so I guess that's why he got a place in the 200+ team...


Thanks Peter. That means a lot coming from you. Compared to my gay driving 18 months ago I have had to work hard to learn how to drive properly - like you do 



djdna2000 said:


> I think we need a 4th discipline where the owner's missus (or bloke) has to drive the car to the local tesco, park it in a really narrow space, get 6 carrier bags full of shopping in and then sit in slow-moving traffic in a local town centre for 30 mins, THAT will separate out the real road cars


lol. My wife is not driving my car...ever again!!!

I did not ask to enter with GTROC as even though I know that they need to concentrate some more on removing points from the evos on handling, I reckoned I could not ...yet...and wanted to go with 200plus club as I am a rep. The best way to get points seemed to go for 1/4 mile and top speed. Unfortunately car problems prevented that happening this year.

As for Gareth Lloyd. I stood talking to him at signing on telling him that I used to watch him in formula saloons in THAT cossie. It was great to watch.
He used an evo at TOTB4, I was faster than him most of the day on handling and he beat me by one place on the handling course in the end.

I think that handling should be given more consideration when the cars are chosen. It should also be given more consideration on the day itself. As far as I saw, most people go for the 1/4 mile and ignore anything you do on the handling course. I had one go on the 1/4 and 1 go on top speed as they did not really interest me and my car had a lot more to do after that event. I am not so bothered in 2006 and would try harder on all three.

Problem is only a few people seem able to come near to beating the evos. As well as some awesome handling cars (on short low gear courses ) ,they have some very talented drivers as well.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

This thread seems a bit ar$e to me.

Keiths car was not a 100% drag car that just happened to take top honours at TOTB. 

We knew we had the 1/4 in the bag, we knew we had little chance of doing anything apart from a few spins in the handling, so we had to do something to enable us to win in the top speed. How many 100% drag cars are geared to pull 220mph? Do you think this was just a coinsidence? No, we made a desicion to alter the car from it's 100% drag focus that would allow us to get points in another discipline. And it worked.

It would be quite possible in the correct car to win handling and also top speed, if this had happened would you still be hunting for reasons to change the rules? I for one don't think so.

The aim is to find the best "all-round" car, but by the very nature of there being only 3 events and them all offering equal points then it should come as no suprise that by winning 2 you have achieved max points.


p.s. i'd still feel the same even if it wasn't a car that I'm involved with that had won.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Also i think the "handling" part of the event is wrong. It should (ideally, space permitting) be a longer circuit that had a larger variety of corner styles. 

And it should definately not require a launch to be part of the timed lap, that is the realms of the 1/4 (and also the top speed to a lesser degree) Of the 40??? second or so lap, how much advantage can be made/lost be getting of the line well? the timing beam should be on the exit of the first corner so that all cars (power, fwd, rwd, 4wd traction etc..) are on a more equal footing.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Peter said:


> Gareth was, from memory, 5 seconds clear of everybody at GTB, the car has had mega money spent on it and clearly in a totally league from my car (and can't be used for shopping!). You could buy my car several times over just with the cost of his gearbox...


Im sorry, but thats just not true, unless you havent spent hardly anything on your car, and i know thts not true as its a damn good spec!
He did make mincemeat out of everyone at GTB, and its not exactly a shopping car, but barring that, nah.

His engine is a late 80s RS500 spec, 450-550bhp depending on what boost he wants to run (IIRC he usually runs it at sub-500 to keep it all running sweet), cost you about 10-12k to get built and mapped if you had NO donor parts, lot less if you did.

The 7speed Ferguson gearbox (non sequential BTW) costs around 11k 

Nothing flash with regards to the transmission, all mechanical diffs, hasnt even got a adj torque splitting fancy transfer box like GTRs have.

The rest is the usual racer spec, stripped, cage, harness, big brakes, quality coilovers. Hasnt got any wildly expensive changed suspension styles or anything either.

Main thing is he's a v.good driver in a well setup car, its not about money spent.

As a different example Mike Rainbirds EscCos ran a 1min37 same as Peter and thats a full interiored, airconditioned, leathered up, sound systemed, full road car (late spec too, weighs well over 1400kg), with around 450bhp and a synchro gearbox.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Having a control fuel and testing at the end of the day is a great idea, but from a cost point of view will never happen. To me that is getting away from the RWYB type of feel that the event has, and getting too motorsport orientated. I think the fact that the event has a bit of a RWYB feel to it that makes it so successfull.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

hi cord
agreed with your comments, i think a couple of comments about keiths car being "drag biased" is what maybe has given him the impression some think he's not a worthy winner, when he obviously was. Replies to his "team" thread should reassure him!

without labouring the same points again, its a long thread already, the scoring tweaks will maybe reduce the drag shootout bonus points and maybe add a scoring bonus for placing on all 3 overall. winning two events overall or placing highly is still a major achievement regardless due to the fabulous quality of the opposition in every class.

someone finishing top ten overall in each event though should be additionally rewarded for doing so,and it is the overall scoring set up that will be looked at.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> hi cord
> agreed with your comments, .


Hello Chris, Any thoughts on my comments about the launch aspect of the handling side of things?


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Cord said:


> Hello Chris, Any thoughts on my comments about the launch aspect of the handling side of things?


hi!
one thought popped straight in, most of the fwd boys will then be at a greater disadvantage anyway as the big power cars will be doing 100mph at the first bend to start the clock! hillclimb/sprinting is all taken from a standing start the same, i suppose its "swings and roundabouts." its something will will discuss with people tho for practicalities when we meet in feb etc.
rgds


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## The Admiral (Jul 27, 2004)

As well as getting all "street" cars to run on pump gas, and giving points to the top 20 cars, multiplying the points gained in each discipline, rather than adding them would make a good showing in each more important?

Cheers 

Rog


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Just make it on the exit of a tight hairpin and leave all the big bhp boys stuck in lagsville waiting for stuff to happen!!! LOL!!!!


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

The Admiral said:


> As well as getting all "street" cars to run on pump gas, and giving points to the top 20 cars, multiplying the points gained in each discipline, rather than adding them would make a good showing in each more important?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Rog



thats a very fair idea. we have got to retain a scoring system also which is workable on the day to produce checkable results within a 10-15min downtime period. pc based system is now used linked to the 3 pcs for each of the timing computers, so we do need to see how to integrate new scoring regimes with the guys who input them.
cheers


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Cord said:


> Just make it on the exit of a tight hairpin and leave all the big bhp boys stuck in lagsville waiting for stuff to happen!!! LOL!!!!


lol!


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Cord said:


> Just make it on the exit of a tight hairpin and leave all the big bhp boys stuck in lagsville waiting for stuff to happen!!! LOL!!!!


Plus make it off camber and throw in a road hump!


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Does anyone know why its only on this Forum that theres so much bitching, in-fighting, back biting and niggling ?

Other forums entering into TOTB must be ****ing themselves at this. 

The GTR Forum.........with some of its own members happily trying to get the 2005 Overall Winner banned from future events which incidentally happened to be one of their own cars. 

The same forum that is the only one in history to manage start, maintain, hold-up and finish making a mockery of TOTB Rules and Regs all on their own which ultimately ended up shooting themselves in the foot and allowing the MLR to score better at last years event because of too much niggling over cars that didnt even finish the event !! 

Unbelievable. Aint forums supposed to be fun ?


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## hissingsyd (Nov 4, 2003)

perhaps you could show us which threads/replies indicate that Kieth should be banned, cos I can't find any.


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## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Arent there some objections to race fuel ? some types of tyres ? and not competing in all three events ?

Its all veiled attempts which is very commonplace by the keyboard warriors on here.


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## hissingsyd (Nov 4, 2003)

objections and rule clarrification does not show that anyone is attempting to ban Keith. In fact most of the replies asking for rules to be clarrified have stated that they want Keith to compete.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

what a load of balls. either your paranoid michael or just trying to sh1tstir

personally I think Keith is a top bloke, but thats nothing to do with the fact that i dont like race fuel or non-roadlegal tyres used in TOTB.

hell, the race fuel think would eliminate half the field FFS.

my objections were this is meant to be a road event, so why use tyres and fuel youd not use on the road.

BTW, i did some calculations of how to make TOTB more fair, with the top 20 or 30 all scoring points, and the bonus points for the drag finals being removed, making people that do well in all 3 events do better.
And Keith still wouldve won last year even with them rules 
Not by as much, but still win 

But i dont are about any single competitor, they all seem 100% fair by the current rules.
I just not a huge fan of the current rules, but changes, esp for fuel, which is my biggest moan, are bloody hard to enforce.

And FFS, its only an event for fun, no stakes involved anyhow, so dont know why people get so worked up...


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

MichaelG said:


> Arent there some objections to race fuel ? some types of tyres ? and not competing in all three events ?
> 
> Its all veiled attempts which is very commonplace by the keyboard warriors on here.


They are not veiled attempts at anything. The discussion (because that's what it is) was the fact that TOTB was meant to be about the best all round street car (the start of the DVDs clearly state this). Cars that run on race fuel and can't corner ain't good street cars and like I said in my last post on the subject it is not Keith's or anyone else fault as they have stuck to the rules and produced an amazing car. No one is suggesting that Keith (or anybody with a drag style car or a car that is just good at handling and has no real top speed due to really crap gearing) withdraw! The discussion was just that TOTB does not mean the winner is the best all round street car like the advert says.

For the record: I'm a great fan of Keith achievement in doing what he did and it has undoubtedly cost a fortune to do it and I think he should continue to enter TOTB for the GTROC as I believe he will soon be running low 8's and who knows maybe even 7's but what is going to happen at TOTB is simple - anyone with a bit of an IQ is going to realise that the best way to win is to enter a drag car as two events favour this sort of car and when that happens it becomes TOTBDC (Ten of The Best Drag Cars).


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

skyline69_uk said:


> They are not veiled attempts at anything. The discussion (because that's what it is) was the fact that TOTB was meant to be about the best all round street car (the start of the DVDs clearly state this). Cars that run on race fuel and can't corner ain't good street cars and like I said in my last post on the subject it is not Keith's or anyone else fault as they have stuck to the rules and produced an amazing car. No one is suggesting that Keith (or anybody with a drag style car or a car that is just good at handling and has no real top speed due to really crap gearing) withdraw! The discussion was just that TOTB does not mean the winner is the best all round street car like the advert says.
> 
> For the record: I'm a great fan of Keith achievement in doing what he did and it has undoubtedly cost a fortune to do it and I think he should continue to enter TOTB for the GTROC as I believe he will soon be running low 8's and who knows maybe even 7's but what is going to happen at TOTB is simple - anyone with a bit of an IQ is going to realise that the best way to win is to enter a drag car as two events favour this sort of car and when that happens it becomes TOTBDC (Ten of The Best Drag Cars).



unfortunately we are also comitted to ensuring its a 3 cornered event, and that the best overall cars still win, so the above wont hold true. 
the fact is that last year keiths car scored plenty of points and won,he was the best skyline all year in numerous events, with a strong performance each time. 
on the day of totb 4 only 1 car (fensport) scored points on all 3 events, but was low placed in them all. the current points scoring didnt reflect that achievement of scoring in all 3. if someone with a good alround car had lasted the day and scored well on handling also they would have probably won. 5th or 6th placed overall on every event would still have beaten keiths score. Tims NUR is a well sorted all round car and tim has said he wished he'd gone out on the handling cct and had a proper go. who knows what may have happend if he had last time.

we will in the new year review and overhaul the scoring as reqd to make sure the drag shootout bonus is reduced, as this is one item that does benefit so called "drag" cars, and we will bring in a further point bonus for scoring on all 3 events , possibly adding further points scoring down the line to open it up more. we will also ensure that its fairly balanced and this may also include dropping the points bonus down for the handling shootout as well. This then would ensure the scores gained overall on 3 events are weighted correctly.

thats probably our last post for now on this thread, its just going round and round now. we are working on totb tour details (and christmas!), we will be more than happy to continue a debate on the points scoring system in the new year after totb arabia, and we will involve all teams/reps in the discussion. i think its also clear that Keiths win is very well respected and he was a very worthy champion.


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## SkylineUSA (Jun 29, 2001)

Why not use a multiplier if a car can place in all 3 events.

Say x3

If a car places 9th in drag, 9th in top speed, and 7th in road course = 24, and will win.

If its been mention before, sorry. But, it make sense to give a bonus if a car can place in all 3 events, and would be the proper all around winner.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

yes its a good point about a multiplier, similar one was mentioned a few pages back.
cheers for now.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

SkylineUSA said:


> Why not use a multiplier if a car can place in all 3 events.
> 
> Say x3
> 
> ...


Sounds like a wonderful idea to me Tony!


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> i think its also clear that Keiths win is very well respected and he was a very worthy champion.


Definitely, without a doubt the best man won


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Just watched the dvd:smokin: :smokin: 

Well done Keith.

You seen it yet Keith???????


Mick


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

skyline69_uk said:


> Definitely, without a doubt the best man won



Does thet mean Tim Webster should of won then???


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