# TOTB - Skyline team split cost overall victory?



## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Not trying to start a controversial thread, but I was reading over the full results lists for TOTB and wondered if anyone else had noticed the following.

1. All the points scoring Evos were entered as part of the MLR Team.

2. There was one high points scoring GTR that was entered under 200+, therefore the points for this entrant were not awarded to the GTR team.

3. If that car had been entered by the GTR team and not the 200+ team the GTR team would have won overall.

Seems that having the best GTRs split between a number of teams (GTR, SkylineOC and 200+) is not exactly a winning strategy for the future and something for you guys to think about if you want the team trophy back..............

Guy


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Good point guy, the skyline owners should enter as a united team, rather than going seperate ways may be because of politics and rivalry


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

200+ club guy isnt a forum go-er, i had him up my sleeve a while back! ;-)


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## Tim (Jan 6, 2003)

I also noticed we'd have won with john Reynolds as part of our team.
Bit of a dark horse though as I had no previous knowledge of the car, not sure if anyone else knew of it. Chris also wanted to put either the Lemon (when I still owned it) or Drag R in the 200+ club but I wasn't happy with that for the same reason that they could take points away from the GTR register team.

Certainly looks like MLR had a plan with the sprint circuit
We'll have it back next year though.


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Whoops! 

Hindsight is a wonderfull thing as they say!

More of a game plan is in order, a la the MLR next year me thinks


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

I think this is a symptom of an underlying cancer really.

I'm not an expert on Evos but it seems that MLR is the de facto (and only?) recognised Evo club in the UK. There doesn't seem to be anything like the negative politics that seems to pervade the Skyline scene. It's like tuner politics, only worse so.

I wasn't (and am still not) privvy to exactly why SOC splintered away from GTROC originally - whether it was because of egos, a difference of opinion, or whatever but the net result - as you highlight - is that we all lose out.


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## Richard Bell (Jun 29, 2001)

Where are the full results listed?


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

But with regards to SOC, one thing I have noticed it has a huge non GTR presence, ie many GTS, GTT, GTST owners, where as on GTROC there is a majority of GTR owners.. that might have something to do with it? I GTS etc owners not feeling comfortable here?


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Richard Bell said:


> Where are the full results listed?


The Viper Club have all the pages of results hosted here:

http://www.ukviperclub.org/page20.html

Guy


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## Richard Bell (Jun 29, 2001)

Thanks Guy


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

GTR-Zilla said:


> But with regards to SOC, one thing I have noticed it has a huge non GTR presence, ie many GTS, GTT, GTST owners, where as on GTROC there is a majority of GTR owners.. that might have something to do with it? I GTS etc owners not feeling comfortable here?


Not really, there are a fair few non GTR owners who post on here..

But opinion like this don't exactly help: http://www.skylineowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28853

If thats what people really think.. Some people need to get out more! It's only a bloody car!


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

It seems a huge mistake that for one day of the year Skyline owners could not get together to kick everyone else's ****, as to the unknowing car fan it looks like the Evos have taken us over as the "King of Jungle".


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Oh god.
I've owned GTR's and Porsches and I'm going back to a Porsche again - they must TRULY hate me.

Hate this percepted division of class in cars - it's pathetic.


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Blow Dog said:


> Oh god.
> I've owned GTR's and Porsches and I'm going back to a Porsche again - they must TRULY hate me.
> 
> Hate this percepted division of class in cars - it's pathetic.


You're the worst of the lot then!

You car snob you!


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

As far as I am concerned there are car enthusiasts and then there are footballers...... .....thats where it ends. We all love cars but have what we can afford, and what suits us best. Footballers buy whatever is 'in' and have absolutely no taste and are generally morons, Football players arent always football players but you know the type. To me people like Guy, Henry, Cem arent in that club as they genuinely love cars and buy what they consider best for them. After years of rotary ownership I am so used to such a friendly group of people that help each other out, I wouldnt swap that for anything.

Ant.




Blow Dog said:


> Oh god.
> I've owned GTR's and Porsches and I'm going back to a Porsche again - they must TRULY hate me.
> 
> Hate this percepted division of class in cars - it's pathetic.


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## skyline501 (Jun 29, 2001)

*Not so sure.*

Surely the problem lies with the unreliability of high spec Skylines.
If half the GTR OC entries hadn't retired the trophy would have been yours. 
 

Vincenzo


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Guy said:


> Not trying to start a controversial thread, but I was reading over the full results lists for TOTB and wondered if anyone else had noticed the following.
> 
> 1. All the points scoring Evos were entered as part of the MLR Team.
> 
> ...


Funnily enough I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday afternoon.

The MLR have 10 evo's entered and that's it. If ANY of them score points, it contributes towards the team award.

The GTR Register put 10 Skylines in. SOC put some GTR's in as did 200+. This means that for every GTR that does well that's not in the GTR Register list, the GTR Register loses out ... even though it's still a SKYLINE that has done well. 

Look at the overall standings ... 1/2 the top 10 were Skylines - which to me says the Skylines were the most dominent .. yet we didn't win the team trophy because the Skylines were split over 3 clubs.

I know if we hadn't had the unlucky failures then we'd defniitely have picked up more points and would subsequently have won 4 in a row ... but we reducing the SKYLINES chances by having Skylnies in several teams.

We need a single Skyline team entry next year - even if it means both the GTR Register and the SOC forum come up with a common way of finding the top 10 Skylines to represent a single Skyline team. It doesn't have to be named after a particular register or club ... just "Team Skyline" or something.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> As far as I am concerned there are car enthusiasts and then there are footballers...... .....thats where it ends. We all love cars but have what we can afford, and what suits us best. Footballers buy whatever is 'in' and have absolutely no taste and are generally morons, Football players arent always football players but you know the type. To me people like Guy, Henry, Cem arent in that club as they genuinely love cars and buy what they consider best for them.
> 
> Ant.


Exactly, a true car enthusiast likes and respects all performance cars, irrespective of the marque/price involved. If it's fast I love it, whether it's a Ferrari or a Ford, Pagani or Peugeot. Throughout my life I have switched marques on many occasions and will do so in the future. When I eventually buy a McLaren F1 it will be because I love and am fascinated by every aspect of it's engineering, not because of it's price or status.

The internet is sadly full of jealous haters who love decrying other marques or even models within their own marque, sometimes this is jealously or sometimes it seems that in order to feel good about their current drive they feel the need to denigrate others...........

Guy


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

skyline501 said:


> Surely the problem lies with the unreliability of high spec Skylines.
> If half the GTR OC entries hadn't retired the trophy would have been yours.
> 
> 
> Vincenzo


Sad but true  

Keith


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Daz said:


> The GTR Register put 10 Skylines in. SOC put some GTR's in as did 200+. This means that for every GTR that does well that's not in the GTR Register list, the GTR Register loses out ... even though it's still a SKYLINE that has done well.
> .



If you can spot whats wrong with this paragraph you will understand why there is a SOC and why there was two teams. I would hope and dont imagine the differences are insurmountable infact they were discussed on the day by members of both teams.


I totally agree with what else has been said, Skylines should be racing under a united banner as far as I could see on the day they were the only class of car that did not do so .... which is wrong. Also like the MLR we should have a "game plan" .... with specific cars targeted at certain events as well as "overall cars".


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

I agree ,could score points with the rear wheel drive skylines too if it all under one banner .All being well my car will be in next year


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Crail Loser said:


> If you can spot whats wrong with this paragraph you will understand why there is a SOC and why there was two teams. I would hope and dont imagine the differences are insurmountable infact they were discussed on the day by members of both teams.
> 
> 
> I totally agree with what else has been said, Skylines should be racing under a united banner as far as I could see on the day they were the only class of car that did not do so .... which is wrong. Also like the MLR we should have a "game plan" .... with specific cars targeted at certain events as well as "overall cars".


Unfortunately I didn't word it too well as I was rushing out to lunch. What I meant to say is that the Skyline as a whole lost out ... not rhe GTR Register. I was trying to use the GTR Register as an example .. but it works the same for the S.O.C. entries as well. Both teams taking points off each other - when they are representing the same marque.

I like GTS-T's ... my old man has a 32 GTS-T and my uncle a 33 GTS-T ... and they are both great cars. I hope my original post didn't imply that I am anti-GTS-T's .. as that is FAR from the truth.

At the end of the day ... one Skyline team, all Skyline points score for that team ... more chance of that team being successful.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

stealth said:


> I agree ,could score points with the rear wheel drive skylines too if it all under one banner .All being well my car will be in next year


There are no points by class. You would have to be in the top ten of cars overall (including 4wd and rwd/fwd) to score points. Classes only matter for a class trophy.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

TOTB4 is now history. We in a way "lost" the trophy rather than MLR "won" it, however, such is life, the "best" team does not always win and credit to MLR for making the most of the opportunity.

We did have an element of a game plan in terms of we knew from the past the Handling Circuit was our weaker event and effort was made to address that point with the likes of Darren, Peter, Gary and so on in the team. Reality is the dinky toys will generally hussle round the mickey mouse circuit better than a godzilla unless there is a talent like Rocket Ron at the wheel. Give credit to Peter, he came 4th equal on handling but was knocked out of the shootout by Chris Mann on count back (which isn't in the rules by the way).

Unfortunately Darren couldn't make it and with all due respects to RK, he did try his best in a car which wasn't his. Likewise Gary Passingham didn't get far before the box went bang. Who beforehand would have bet money on "zero points" from either RK or GP, let alone both!  

Likewise, having scored 7 points last year who would have predicted "zero" from John Fuggles? John certainly the least. Plus he lost out in the top speed final point again on countback to Adrian Smith, as John got one run only and Adrian got two!

Keith, Tim, Pete, Hugh and Mo delivered. Plus Mike "Spike" Hayward, despite also being a first timer got us 2 points. However, the MLR got the handling circuit practically to themselves and cleaned up big time. Where were you Scooby world when you were needed!  

OK, I as a first timer was an "unknown quantity", did not expect to do well in the Handling, harboured hopes of something in the 1/4's, but was certain that with a 200+ pass on the speed run I could do my bit. If the bonnet hadn't gone then the Viper would have like it was in reverse just on the first run! (I solemnly swear to use the bonnet pins in future). 

Fact is if we hadn't had reliability issues so early on from Gary, John or myself, almost anyone of us running really, then we would have won. Period. The 200+/SOC aspect wouldn't have mattered, the MLR wouldn't have mattered, let them all run. 

Lets not go headless chicken, the GTR is still King and all things being equal of those participating, our team was ten of the best.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Daz said:


> Funnily enough I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday afternoon.
> 
> The MLR have 10 evo's entered and that's it. If ANY of them score points, it contributes towards the team award.
> 
> ...



The other problem could be cherry picking and regulars those who would form the skyline team. Ok say if over the winter I build a proven low 11 second car, could and would I be allowed? looking at the list there were some gtrs that could get no better than a low 12 or a very high 11. 

The fact that you have 3 teams does on the other hand give the less fortunate ones a change to compete..


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Good post Atco.
Although if reliability is the reason, then the same logic can be applied to the Subaru team who were all plagued with bad luck.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

ATCO-

Reliability is all part of the game tho mate. Its all well and good having fast cars, but if they dont last you stuffed, no excuses.

The Scooby team had mega quick cars with bad reliability issues as well, in all honesty the Scoobys seemed to be the best all rounders, all could do fast 1/4s, 1.25s, and handle well, but most broke...

Post really shows the Skyline owner superiority complex IMO.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

SteveN said:


> Post really shows the Skyline owner superiority complex IMO.


How?


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

SteveN said:


> Post really shows the Skyline owner superiority complex IMO.


What over Dagenham dustbins?  Even a Mazda 323 owner has the right to that superiority


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

TOTB is actually two competitions.
there is the individual and there is the team.

The individual award has been won by Rocket Ronnie several times and now by Keith. That they are members of the GTR register is all very well and nice for us but it does also show the power of the Skyline.

The team award is for the best team and not for the best manufacturer. If the 200+ choose to put in Skylines then so be it. For three years the Skyline GTR register has won the team award. This year we had a lot of bad luck and failures early in the day. Had Dave, Gary or myself managed to perform to the car's full potential the result may have been different. Had all three cars performed well then it would certainly have been different. That we had one bad year does not refelct badly on the cars, the team or the selection. On the matter of combining with other teams this is folly. It's a team event not a manufacturer event.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

GTR-Zilla said:


> But with regards to SOC, one thing I have noticed it has a huge non GTR presence, ie many GTS, GTT, GTST owners, where as on GTROC there is a majority of GTR owners.. that might have something to do with it? I GTS etc owners not feeling comfortable here?


As I saw it at Japfest, they had more GTR's on their stand than we did. Was upsetting to see such nice cars "seperated"


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Daz, no offence intended by me and I hope none taken, I know from past posts from yourself you have appreciated the pros and cons of Skylines perhaps more than many others.

I also get to drive many types of Skyline and can appreciate the good and bad of all the different types ..... I wasnt intending to say anyone was more preferable then the other .... mearly that there is more than one type  something that was often forgotton on the GTR registar in past years and I have no doubt one of the reasons the SOC came into being.

MLR played the game well, Skylines will have to do the same next year if they wish to bring the cup back ...... but hey, lets face it .... the challange is just going to make it more fun


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

All IMHO,

The GTROC is closely affiliated with the GTR register (emphasis on the words GTR but all models welcome) and Skyline owners (emphasis on the word Skyline ie. catering for all models) is a club and BBS which many GTS owners feel more comfortable with as it doesn't feature an R in the name.

When it comes to competitions, SOC should enter RWD Skylines only. The bbs was originally intended to cater for GTS owners which the 'elitist' GTR Register didn't. If it does this, at least it stands for something. There may be GTR's over there, but this is the original GTR Register forum for GTR owners. 

The GTR Register or GTROC should enter GTR's only. Then there is no conflict of interest and both model Skylines which are both excellent cars, will be represented to the fullest.

Is this too simplistic?

Or, do both clubs enter a mixture of GTR's and GTS's, take points form eachother and then loose out to another club!


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Blow Dog said:


> How?


Yes, SteveN, how?  

Reliability is part of the equation, but much of what happened was plain bad luck, none of the cars at the time where trying to do what they hadn't easily achieved before and certainly was well within there performance envelope.

Whilst Gary's box break might be considered predictable, he had only just rebuilt it, so was perfectly within his rights to have expected it to take a days abuse. How do you explain John holing the Exhaust manifold or my losing the bonnet resulting in the windscreen being mega cracked by the bonnet hinge? 

John got his manifold welded by CRD, but on review concluded it was a "get you home" not "re-join the fray" solution. 

We fitted John's bonnet to my car with the intent of doing more runs, however the good counsel of others persuaded me the screen wasn't going to take 200+ wind pressure and I wouldn't have been thanked for spreading glass all over the course. 

If the oil seal hadn't given up then Spike may have done even better in the 34.

My point is that we experienced an extra ordinary number and combination of failures, some of a extrenuous nature, that stopped participation at an early stage. If almost any one of those had not occured, it would have made all the difference. Our extra ordinary mis-fortune, and the Scoobies bad luck, was the MLR's good fortune.

I've no complaints that MLR won, they did well, however lets not delude ourselves, I'm sure the MLR isn't, because the odds of winning the lottery are probably better than of this combination happening again on any other day. Tell me SteveN, what do you think would happen then? 

DaveG


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I didnt bother going this year as I had other things to be getting on with.

However I am not surprised this has happened as it was highly likely that this year would see a bit of fragmentation to proceeding just from having seen what cars were being built through the year.

For the first time ever the event has been won by a "straightliner" - taking nothing away from Keith who knows I think he is a top bloke, but imho thats not what the spirit of the event was ever about. I also thought that the Evo Handling Circus was meant to be put a stop to this year, but from what i have read that didnt happen either.

So in essence you have a whole group Evos getting points for the one discipline they are good at, with an odd mega horsepower car getting high points for what it was built for, and half the skylines break, which is unusual given that whilst there are breakages every year its normally restricted to two or three unlucky individuals, and we still only lost by 6 points. Fair enough there are a few other skylines for other clubs getting alot of points, but in fairness if Tim decided to start up the "Big Ugly Northern Bastid racing Club (or TEAM Dibnah as it could be known) it stands to reason he could walk away with the team trophy all on his own - or at least could while he still had the lemon or perhaps once he has replaced it with the next special item !!!

I say dont worry about it so much, it was bound to happen at some point, and without wanting to sound like Im kissing Ronnies short little backside, I think he would still have faired well, still been in with a chance and would most likely have given the team enough points to win - I guess he was missed more than you might think !!

TOTB is about having a cracking day, seeing what a bunch of carnuts with enough money to burn to turn even a fiesta into a 170mph+ weapon can do, and generally having fun. I think its most likely been another successful event if you measure it by those rules.

J.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Crail Loser said:


> I also get to drive many types of Skyline and can appreciate the good and bad of all the different types ..... I wasnt intending to say anyone was more preferable then the other .... mearly that there is more than one type  something that was often forgotton on the GTR registar in past years and I have no doubt one of the reasons the SOC came into being.


Afraid not.  The register's URL was chosen when the person seeting up the site bought his car into the UK and it was a GTR. The site has always been open for all Skylines as has the Club. The Club's name is driven out of a desire by Nissan to be asociated with what they see as the premium brand (the GTR) and not for any other purpose. the Club's magazine is called "_Sky Lines_" and one of the Board Members drives a GTS, so we have never been negative toward the GTS. that some individuals may adopt this attitude is not reflected by the club or this forum. There is no separation of GTR and GTS and there are no separate forums for either.

If you look at the forums under "General" you will see the name Skyline appears twice in the descriptions. Not GTR. The only mention of GTR in the General Forum is with reference the next generation yet to come from Nissan.



NITO said:


> When it comes to competitions, SOC should enter RWD Skylines only. The bbs was originally intended to cater for GTS owners which the 'elitist' GTR Register didn't. If it does this, at least it stands for something. There may be GTR's over there, but this is the original GTR Register forum for GTR owners.
> 
> The GTR Register or GTROC should enter GTR's only. Then there is no conflict of interest and both model Skylines which are both excellent cars, will be represented to the fullest.
> 
> Or, do both clubs enter a mixture of GTR's and GTS's, take points form eachother and then loose out to another club!


The SOC entered AWD and RWD cars. I don't see why they would want to restrict themselves to RWD cars. Similarly the 200+ Club entered some Skylines. Are we suggesting they should not be allowed to use Skylines as well?  

In point of fact the SOC scored no points for the Team Trophy, so there was no points taken from the Skyline/GTR Register. The team selected to represent this forum is exactly that. It is representative of the people that use this forum. A lot of GTS owners use this forum so it would be unfair to exclude them purely on the grounds proposed.


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## Andy Hornsby (Mar 22, 2003)

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't this competition supposed to be for the 10 best cars from each club. Not the 10 best types of car. 

That said, this is exactly the topic of conversation around the dinner table on the Saturday night at the hotel, i.e. that there may well be Skyline's entered by other clubs, although they are members here, that might just take points off the GTR register team. (and yes, I know there are people who are members of both.).

We need to get a better blend IMHO, and not just necessarily go for raw power, we seamed to be a bit blinkered and ran lots of cars with BIG hp. Some less powerfull cars, (say 450-500), may well have been a better idea on the handling circuit and might have taken some points off the Evo's. I think it's about the best blend of cars overall. 

Something else that's not been mentioned.....it's not just the cars, the skill of the drivers???? Some people can't drag race, as they can't get off the line and do a good 60' time, others can't throw a car about on a handling course either.

Lets stop this bitching on....it's starting to sound like we are crying over spilt milk, we were beaten on the day 'cos we had some minor car problems and the Evo's won the handling circuit hands down. We'll just have to win it back next year........won't we!

As for the us and them issue......it works both ways. We have members that think we are above the SOC and it's the same the other way around. Life's like that. It would be pritty boring if we all had exactly the same opinions and views.

The GTROC is a great club, has great events, defo the best people, the best crack and some of the best clobber I've seen.  Just my 2p worth!


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Fuggles said:


> That some individuals may adopt this attitude is not reflected by the club or this forum.
> QUOTE]
> 
> And as said by me that attitude is no longer as prevaliant as it used to be in the early years but from speaking to members on the SOC it was that early attitude of some GTROC members that acted as a catalyst for SOC to form. If that attiude was real or percived ..... who cares, I know its not the way the GTROC is ran and I know its not the way the SOC is ran to be favorable to one or the other .... it wasnt a dig at either club mearly an answer to the question posted.


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

My understanding John, is that TOTB was originally intended to represent the top 10 cars from each club. 

Having the SOC enter a mish mash of cars that come under the 'Skyline' banner is like the Supra forum entering GT4's and Supras, apart from the 'Skyline' name, the GTS is about as different from the GTR as you can get, in fact its almost closer to a 200sx. I mean no disrespect to the GTS as I think it is a great and very entertaining car, very different to a GTR which is in no way a bad thing, but to expect it to be competitive against C class cars is asking a lot from it, especially if we aim to score in all disciplines and entering one on the team would arguably harm our chances, so for GTS's to be fairly represented, they should be in a team of their own, which is I thought the original point of SOC. Unless SOC was purely started for alterior purposes of conflicting Ego's or superiority complexes, which is just pathetic politics again which I don't have time for. There are some great people both on SOC and GTR register, the fact that some feel more at home on one forum than another now that there are two is also a fair point, but why was the other forum created again?

Sure the GTR register is in an awkward predicament because GTS owners are rightfully welcomed onto the Forum and the GTROC also encourages both brands, but in a competition like TOTB it doesn't make sense to enter cars in the same club that fall into completely different classes. Realistically, if the GTROC chooses the cream of the crop, its unlikely to contain GTS's as without 4wd they are unlikely to be particularly competitive, unless they are capable of running stupid times whch would be difficult.

If entered as a seperate entity, they could compete/mix it up with Supras, 200SX's etc, have a whale of a time (and not be deprived of competing because 10 GTR's have been chosen) as they would be in the same class. 

Obviously the SOC can enter who they like, but it is a bit silly to have two clubs representing the same cars. It's like having a Scoobynet and 22B.com entries. The MLR could argue that there's only 10 point scoring Mitsu's as opposed to potentially 20+ scoring Skylines.

Just some of my thoughts
Nito


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

NITO said:


> Realistically, if the GTROC chooses the cream of the crop, its unlikely to contain GTS's as without 4wd they are unlikely to be particularly competitive, unless they are capable of running stupid times whch would be difficult.


The team is chosen purely on merit and against what we perceive the competition will do. Last year we had a GTS in the team.


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

bladerider said:


> I also thought that the Evo Handling Circus was meant to be put a stop to this year, but from what i have read that didnt happen either.
> 
> J.



james- the evos had the same number of goes as the rest this year, 5 maximum runs. loads more people actually got 3 or 4 runs in this time, however the Evo's are very good at what they do, ie handle and brake well. their team also had the advantage of the RC evo doing well in 1/4m and on top speed, giving them a great points boost.

200+ club also had a nice spread of cars, we scored points from 3 or 4 cars, and had we got some handling points in we might have done even better!


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

I know the GTR register/GTROC chooses fairly,

My argument John, is that if they were entered seperately as a seperate model car which to all intents and purposes they are, rather than trading under the Skyline banner, you could have 10 GTS's competing and not 1 which kind of I thought was the point of SOC. 

Nito


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Nice one Chris,

From what I had read it sounded like a free for all.

Although I have never heard of anyone who is aiming for all three disciplines ever get more than 3 runs in on the handling course, so perhaps 5 runs is still a bit high. You wouldnt catch me driving an evo   

Im just gonna sit back and relax as Nito gets a good kicking from all the people he just picked a fight with !!!     

J.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Maybe we should limit the number of runs to the top speed and 1/4 mile also?

There were far too many cars this year. 
120 cars in a pit lane filled with people is too crowded. Unfortunately the general public seem to have the attitude that they are there to look at the cars and that the cars are there for them to look at. Instead of what it should be which is the cars are there to perform and any public are there as a privilege. Name another event (apart from GT Battle  ) where anyone can walk around an open pit lane throiughout the whole day and talk to anyone without having to go through a security?


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Maybe, 

You should have to be a club member to get into the pitlane. Then you can sell more memberships/add value to them, and it keeps out the Yorkish Chavs! (no disrespect  )

I felt the same thing, way too crowded, and no leaderboards/results info, those were my main gripes of the day. I didn't like the RCM stand either, makes it too tuner heavy, totally OTT imho but I'll probably get blasted for that. Oh, and the viewing areas were hard to get into the front line as these didn't extend long enough down the runway.

Food was much improved, its pricey but at least its there, and only too expensive if you're gonna spend the day eating! 

Nito


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

GT Battle had excellent security I thought and also continually updated display screens with timings for the competitors  (and proper toilets  ). 

The appalling lack of control of the pitlane at TOTB was the main reason that I didn't go this year.

There are also too many cars there every year as Fuggles said. TOTB is about the UKs fastest cars and should not be including cars that are only capable of 150mph and 14 second quarters - cars this fast could be bought at most new car dealers....... the event needs less, higher quality cars there, if a club cannot get 10 cars that will run well then they should not be allowed 10 cars. There should be a minimum requirement for each event and every car entered should have to reach the minimum in at least one event.

Guy


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Guy said:


> There are also too many cars there every year as Fuggles said. TOTB is about the UKs fastest cars and should not be including cars that are only capable of 150mph and 14 second quarters - cars this fast could be bought at most new car dealers....... the event needs less, higher quality cars there, if a club cannot get 10 cars that will run well then they should not be allowed 10 cars. There should be a minimum requirement for each event and every car entered should have to reach the minimum in at least one event.
> 
> Guy


Hmmm. Pre-qual Guy. That is a serious hot potato.

Set the bar too high and you could well find all the FWD cars and many RWD cars are excluded - would that be right for the event as a spectacle?

Also, what verification process are you going to use? Handling would be novel, as would top speed maybe. What happens if someone only qualifies marginally by virtue of a 1/4 run at some event that many feel has "unvalidated" timing equipment?

The numbers only become an issue with inadequate management of the event. Its certainly not beyond the wit of man to manage 150cars for 5 runs on handling, and 5 1/4+top speed and 5 1/4 only events. Looking at the results sheet how many people actually did many more than 5, although in truth the 5 run limit has maybe some value, even if only to stop breakages!

It was noticeable, with the failures(!), that the queues to run actually got very short in the afternoon, so is this really an issue? 

DaveG


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## P20SPD (Aug 5, 2003)

Got to agree with Guy there. The time wasters need to be forgotten/excluded.

I dont wish that to sound elitist or anything of that nature, but they take up a lot of the time during the day.

I have had loads of conversations with Chris over the last few months whilst sorting Team Subaru for the event, (Chris this is not a dig or an insult) and when i had to change the team very near the cut off date, i got the impression from Chris that my replacement car had to be a proven 12.5s car or less. I took that in my stride and just said yes, but i knew the car would struggle to do that time consistently.

It all gets confusing, because it was Chris' idea, and only he knows what he wants to achieve, and that will never please everyone.

Its a bit like i get miffed when i read reports about TOTB Scooby Shootout Qualifier, its not a Qualifier for the TOTB team, its merely and indication of whats about at that time. The event can be misunderstood, just like TOTB.

Steven


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

i dont think we had any probs with the 5 run max limit on the handling, it worked well and many people did do what they wanted, as seen by the set of times from the cars. people also got plenty of runs in without restriction on the drag and top speed, and i dont see the need to limit the number of runs on there currently. 
the pitlane area was better this year , with security in there, but it does need a few more bodies throught the area. many of the teams squashed themselves down into the far end for some reason, when the top of the extended pitlane was much quieter this time. 
we also dont plan to restrict the fwd cars from competing, they have also moved their game on and had some excellent cars running. edited to add that sub 14s was the min for fwd, and all the cars that came had run proven sub 14s already at events.
rgds


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## P20SPD (Aug 5, 2003)

Dave, i think the breakages aided the queues for the 1/4 in the afternoon, but more so because everyone started to go to the handling circuit, probably because the Evos had used up all there runs 

It took me 40 minutes to queue for the handling circuit at 2pm, by the time i came round at 2:45, there was no way i would run again.

Admitedly, the car only did its 1st run on the drag just after 12, so it was slightly different in my case. However, i suspect a lot of people go with the idea of drag/top speed in the morning, then handling in the afternoon. I know i did at TOTB2.


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

the handling cct was pretty quiet till about 1pm, most of the people i spoke to wanted to run the 1/4m or top speed first.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

chris-m said:


> the handling cct was pretty quiet till about 1pm, most of the people i spoke to wanted to run the 1/4m or top speed first.


Whilst I know there are temp considerations, and I'm as guilty as anyone for going 1/4/TS first, the logic that more people don't get "some" handling runs in first before trying the more likely car breaking 1/4's/TS, is lost on me! I didn't even get to do one circuit run..........  (Plonker 1 - Common Sense 0)


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Yup me to, time I ****ed about trying to fix a fault on the 1/4mile then qued for the handeling I missed qualifying by 7mins ... gutted but no ones fault but my own.

Fair enough the guys let me run and gave me a time but its a shame it couldnt be counted.


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

i also thought the same, that a few more people might use the opportunity to warm up the cars box/diff etc on the handling first (plus with the first untimed test lap), then give it full launch on the strip afterward.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Chris, I guess if we had any common sense would we be doing this in the first place?  

Next you'll be expecting people to lift off just because the bonnet's flown up.....   (Bonnet Pins 2 - Actually Locked 0)

Has NO ONE got any vid of that or do I have to wait the eons before Chris releases the TOTB4 CD?


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chris-m said:


> the pitlane area was better this year , with security in there, but it does need a few more bodies throught the area.


As I said on another thread, the pit lane had two faults

1) tuners taking up far too much width with cars in front of tents, in front of vans. This has to be restricted for next year.

2) the attitudes of people who think they can stand and chat in front of a returning car without any consideration for the stresses and strains the car has been through and how important it is to get back. Frankly the attitude of some people really sucks! I had one tuner purposely stand in the way whilst he mate said "that showed him who's boss".


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Nito, you really do need to take your head out of your ar$e, it's blinkering your vision


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Steady!
He is entitled to his opinion.


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Fuggles said:


> Steady!
> He is entitled to his opinion.


John, how is your club going to move forward in trying to cater for all 'Skyline' owners with that sort of an attitude from an established member?


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## 1000bhp (Apr 20, 2005)

I have to say after reading this, that I am very sorry our car "John Reynolds" was not entered by the GTROC. If you will have us it will next year. It was a shame to see so many cars with problems as we could have entered the two Motul cars but all the places seemed to be taken up for some time. We had a good time and it was a shame that we did not know what we were doing as we could have won! We only did one top speed run and coasted the last bit. We also missed the last go on the handling track due to queues. But it was a good day and looking forward to next year.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Skyline Owners - that means a club for Skyline owners. GTR, GTS, GTT, they are all on the SOC as they are on this forum, as far as I can see there is no reason why the SOC team should not enter GTR`s and GTS`s - the club is for ALL models! If people think that only GTS`s should be entered then I find that insulting - it implies the GTS is a lesser car and that the SOC is a lesser club  . It really upsets me when people become "stuck up", I love my 505bhp GTST and unless I win the lottery and buy a R34GTR I wouldn`t swap it for a GTR  .


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

ahapartridge said:


> John, how is your club going to move forward in trying to cater for all 'Skyline' owners with that sort of an attitude from an established member?


It moves forward by consensus after open and fair discussion, the way any good club would. I have seen other forums where discenters have their posts removed and would never wish that to hapen here.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

oops - double post


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## Andy Hornsby (Mar 22, 2003)

I think reducing the number of cars to the "better" one's in each class would work. 

You would have more space in the pit lane and have a better "show" for the public.  

I also think that points should be awarded to each class, that way you can find the car which is best overall,  if you see what I mean.  

Also, tyres......I know, I know, but please bare with me for a mo.  

Why not introduce a rule that says that each car has to use DOT approved road legal tyres, (no change there I here you say,), but.....they have to use the same tyres for the 1/4 mile, the top speed and the handling circuit. That way you would remove any perceved advantage for those with money for different tyres for each section. (I'm not shooting at anyone here, I just think it would level the playing field a little.  and you may end up with a fairer result.).

....................................OK start shooting.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

It also states the tyres must be road legal at the end of the day, but allows as many tyre changes throughout the day as you want. Does anyone ever check the discarded tyres?


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

John, you know I love it here  I also love the SOC  I have made many friends from both forums, maybe a bigger combined team entry for next year is a good idea?


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

The Skyline/GTR Register has competed since day 1 at TOTB. Anyone who post on any other forum (e.g. 200+, SOC, etc. etc.) is entitled to join this forum (free) and is entitled to apply for membership of the team. That another forum chose to enter it's own team (I think 5 cars only the first year) - only *8* cars this year - shows they had no interest in joining an existing Skyline Team. The offer has always been there, I don't see why we should change now to accomodate someone else


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## Andy Hornsby (Mar 22, 2003)

Trev said:


> Skyline Owners - that means a club for Skyline owners. GTR, GTS, GTT, they are all on the SOC as they are on this forum, as far as I can see there is no reason why the SOC team should not enter GTR`s and GTS`s - the club is for ALL models! If people think that only GTS`s should be entered then I find that insulting - it implies the GTS is a lesser car and that the SOC is a lesser club  . It really upsets me when people become "stuck up", I love my 505bhp GTST and unless I win the lottery and buy a R34GTR I wouldn`t swap it for a GTR  .


Trev,

I agree with you mate. I'd not swap my GTS-t for a GTR, indeed I could have bought two GTR's for what it's cost me to get mine to the state of tune it's currently in.


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Fuggles said:


> oops - double post


Good sense of humour I see John, didn't you mean




> Hello ahapartridge,
> 
> Fuggles has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - TOTB - Skyline team split cost overall victory? - in the General Skyline Chit Chat forum of GT-R Register Bulletin Board.
> 
> ...




Don't forget email subscribing


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## MR MIAGGI (Jun 5, 2003)

I fail to see where this is going , The team entered from this forum is Team GTROC. the team entered from Skyline Owners was Team SOC. 
This was team event a not a combined Marque event. even though some Marques chose to see at as such. as it happens a combined team between both clubs would not have made the slightest bit of difference as the Team GTROC entered was by far a stronger entry and SOC did not score in the team event.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

ahapartridge said:


> Good sense of humour I see John, didn't you mean
> Don't forget email subscribing


Bugger!   

When I wrote it seemed funny and was only meant in jest.
then I figured someone will definately take it to heart and not appreciate my slightly ascerbic sense of humour.

Oh well!


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

MR MIAGGI said:


> I fail to see where this is going , The team entered from this forum is Team GTROC. the team entered from Skyline Owners was Team SOC. .


Wrong. The team (and it says so on the trophy  ) is "Skyline GTR Register"    



MR MIAGGI said:


> This was team event a not a combined Marque event. even though some Marques chose to see at as such. as it happens a combined team between both clubs would not have made the slightest bit of difference as the Team GTROC entered was by far a stronger entry and SOC did not score in the team event.


Thank you.  
Glad to see we're agreed, and that it's about the teams and not the marques. This is a competition to find "ten of the best cars" not to find the best manufacturer.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Andy Hornsby said:


> ......they have to use the same tyres for the 1/4 mile, the top speed and the handling circuit.



Totally agree.

Its a point I made last year, but if you are driving a road car on the road and you fancy a bit of fun, you do not have a drive through the twisties then when stopped at the lights change the tyres for a drag-launch and then change them again if you fancy going very fast (on an autobahn for example).......

If people wish to set-up their cars for specific events then thats OK, but they should also suffer the detriment of that setup on the other events, otherwise it's not arguably the same car in each event. It would be quite possible to run rwd and a big turbo for top speed, then switch the car midway to a smaller turbo, 4wd, legal slicks and change the suspension settings for the track - would this actually car be the best all-rounder......?

Guy


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

.... and you forgot to mention........ "make them last all day"


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

*Back to the original question*

I guess the answer is no. Only a few points were scored by non-Register Skylines. That we had too many failures was down to a variety of things and that the MLR went 100% for the points on the handling circuit was fair play to them.

We lost, they won. Fair and square



BTW. I did tell Darrin to keep it polished for when we get it back next year


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## LOL (May 23, 2005)

P20SPD said:


> Got to agree with Guy there. The time wasters need to be forgotten/excluded.
> 
> I dont wish that to sound elitist or anything of that nature, but they take up a lot of the time during the day.
> 
> i got the impression from Chris that my replacement car had to be a proven 12.5s car or less. I took that in my stride and just said yes, but i knew the car would struggle to do that time consistently.




LMFAO sounds to me like you are 1 of the time wasters mate


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## brooksie (Sep 24, 2003)

y'see .... in every team there is a star .. Steven Gerrard for example .. Steve Harmison too ... both legends and both their teams struggle when they aren't playing. 

Take Ronnie out of the team and .. well ... you suffered. 

get over it ladies


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

brooksie i see you took up the dare from the members of the club thats never won totb,and failed to score any points this year


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Aha,

Why is my vision blinkered or indeed my head up my ****. Cutting through the PC stuff, the main reason SOC was formed appears to be, judging by the many comments I have read on there, because of this perceived opinion that the GTR forum was elitist and virtually word for word what you have just written. I think you'll find most of the GTR owners DO NOT turn their noses up at GTS's. I love rear wheel drive cars. As has been pointed out earlier, a GTS can easily cost well in excess of a GTR so it's not that many GTS owners can't afford one, it may be that they dont want one. 

So why keep banging on at us? I'm not saying that the two brands shouldn't co exist on the same forum, the total opposite in fact, lots of my friends have GTS's. But, given that the cars are so different, they should imo be entered seperately, please don't take this as alienating the GTS because its 'inferior', its not what I mean in anyway, I would like to see them mount a challenge against the other RWD cars in their own right, I'm not saying that they should go and start their own GTS register. 

I don't know how many times I've said, I really do like GTS's. I'm not sorry to say that I see the GTS as an alternative car to a GTR, and not an inferior car. 

The point I am trying to make, is that it would be nice to see a 10 car GTS lineup, entered as a seperate team. The whole doubling up of GTR Skylines seems a little bonkers to me.

Perhaps, the reason why there is so much doubling up is because there are more people wanting to compete than 10 places can fill. This being the case, there's nothing really to stop there being a Skyline shootout like there is a scooby shootout.

At the rate its carrying on there'll be four GTR entered teams, then the other marques will really be kicking up. Not that I care, because the GTR Register will still clean up next year regardless  

Nito


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## R33GTS (Jun 21, 2005)

Can i just add to this the fact that since ive been on this forum,every one has been polite and chatty, despite the fact i have a GTS-T and not a GTR, especially Tim who must be fed up of me gawping at NUR R34 at every Elvington meet

Cheers guys great community we got here


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Nito,

I still see no point in entering just GTR's or GTS's, it's a team effort that counts and your idea of not allowing paid up 'members' to compete just because of the model of their car is absolute bull.

A GTS can put up a very favourable time compared to a GTR on the handling, take a look at the full results from last year  (and that was with minimum prep and a set of second hand shocks)

And although it did not merit any points, this year Nathan Scadden in his GTS ran a better time than Fuggles, Peter and Hugh on the 1/4 mile


As Mr Fuggles himself said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, it just so happens that yours is wrong


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## IanH (Nov 23, 2002)

*TOTB & Forums*

Both forums are great places, both cater for owners for every-type of Skyline and both should continue to run their teams filled by what-ever cars they, as individual forums, decide.

It'd be nice to see both the Skyline GTR Register AND the Skyline Owners Club fighting for 1st place at TOTB5

*General TOTB thoughts*

It was my 1st TOTB so I wasn't sure how it'd be but I have just a few suggestions - 

Viewing - the Grandstand was a good idea but having just one wasn't really enough, so how about 2 either side at the start of the 1/4 and 2 at the handling (where the viewing area was very crowded, almost 4 deep in some places)

Pit Lane - Having people randomly wandering around seemed like really bad idea near so many cars with "Twitchy" clutches etc, how about barriers along the length of the lane to keep the people & cars seperate with a few wide crossing points every so often (manned by security as "lollipop ladies ")

Other than that it was great to see all the cars giving it dixie !


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

ahapartridge said:


> Nito,
> 
> As Mr Fuggles himself said, everyone is entitled to their opinion, it just so happens that yours is wrong


It's the duplication of cars in other teams that I think is wrong. If you want to enter two different cars into one team then fine, no other club does this with the exception of the 200+ club (a generic club which doesn't represent any particular make or car) and I'd rather see the GTS and GTR compete in seperate teams, than 2 teams composed of GTR's and GTS's, it undermines the respective clubs and makes it look like we're a disharmonious bunch that need two clubs against everyone elses one. 

Perhaps, the GTROC/Register could run a dedicated GTR and a dedicated GTS team, seeing as both are welcome and both are different cars. Now there's a nice thought which would service fully 'paid up' members and double the 'Skyline' representation with two seperate models, oh, and enhance the perception that this forum and the GTROC, opens its arms to all Skyline models not just the GTR.

:smokin: 
Nito


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Maybe someone should start an R34 V-SpecII Nur OC for next year  

Only Z-tune lookalikes need apply


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

chris-m said:


> james- the evos had the same number of goes as the rest this year, 5 maximum runs. loads more people actually got 3 or 4 runs in this time, however the Evo's are very good at what they do, ie handle and brake well. their team also had the advantage of the RC evo doing well in 1/4m and on top speed, giving them a great points boost.
> 
> 200+ club also had a nice spread of cars, we scored points from 3 or 4 cars, and had we got some handling points in we might have done even better!


peter did bloody good job in his R33, while I believe its not big bhp car, he has a very good setup and its more track orientated than pure drag.. ..i think when choosing you should have a mix of cars, ie those good for track+handling, high speed run and 1/4 that way you maximise your chances


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

The irony is, I'm arguing for better GTS representation not less!


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

TOTB should be held at the bedford aero drome.. its has a good track layout rather than cones which seem to produce a micky mouse circuit suited more to evos and scoobies.. and i think they also have a long straight suited for the high speed runs


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Yunis,

Peter's car is well over 600bhp.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

ahapartridge said:


> Nito, you really do need to take your head out of your ar$e, it's blinkering your vision


He is an elitist member


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

moleman said:


> Yunis,
> 
> Peter's car is well over 600bhp.


Was going to say, probably the best all rounder (proven) GT-R in the UK, bar Rocket Ron's.


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## tigger (Jan 3, 2002)

at the end of the day, if you guys had won the trophy this conversation wouldnt even be happening....you would be too happy slapping each others backs in heart felt congratulation to even give a toss as to how many other teams had skylines in them


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

tigger said:


> at the end of the day, if you guys had won the trophy this conversation wouldnt even be happening....you would be too happy slapping each others backs in heart felt congratulation to even give a toss as to how many other teams had skylines in them



very True.


Aaah well, this time last year we were arguing with some 'DUDE' in a Supra


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

*Shoot out*

Next year why don't we do a Skyline shoot out.????  

Then there will be no after math like there is now.  

Everyone involved gave it there best. Yes we had some cars break but that is life..

Big old shoot out i think.

Well thats my veiw on this.  


Mick


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

And then take the mutineers paintballing


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

What will that help, if we had a Skyline that did alright in the handling, we would have done better. We all know who the straightliners are. having ten 1/4 milers competing with each other from the same team doesn't help.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Obviously you never saw Tim or Peter in action.

And i think the Lemon would do the trick.


Mick


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

moleman said:


> Yunis,
> 
> Peter's car is well over 600bhp.


yup i know that, but when i meant big i meant compared to keith cowies or drag r or tims...


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Nisfan,

Peter had a well balanced team. John, Peter, Ron Kidell, Gary P and Tim all had the makings of well balanced track cars, with ATCO for top end and Tim and Keith for storming 1/4s.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

*Agree*

Well said Nito  

Mick


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Agreed, was a good team, but perhaps we need to concentrate a little more on the handling course, not saying choose different cars, just have a more focussed strategy. Make sure the handling course 'experts' get all thier runs in, etc.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Yes agreed :smokin: :smokin: 


Mick


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Purely out of interest, who was the top points scorer (and how many) in all three disciplines (excluding shootout points if awarded), if anyone?

Glen


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

13 car's all under 10.5 sec on the 1/4 mile    

I see everyone is getting faster year after year

Keith :smokin:


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

glen- Fensport Corrolla scored points in all 3 events, adrian has a superb car there. 9th on handling overall, 10th on both 1/4m and top speed. with a bit more luck and a mid-placed finish in each , he could have challenged for the overal title. more to come from him as well.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

NISFAN said:


> Was going to say, probably the best all rounder (proven) GT-R in the UK, bar Rocket Ron's.


Thanks Gordon, praise indeed although I did suffer from a variety of minor problems which did prevent me from doing better. I had a problem selecting 3rd gear on boost which put paid to better times/speeds on the strip. I think I only got 2 runs when 3rd gear went in despite adjusting the clutch, all the others didn't feature 3rd gear at all. As the circuit was so tight, it only involved one gear change, 1st to 2nd so this didn't affect my progress here. I also forgot to adjust my suspension in all the excitement, was running full soft at front and ~50% hard at rear...

With regard to team selection, having done this for the last two years, we never ever get the numbers of cars coming forward to make a pre-qual day worthwhile. Even this year, at the death, I had to consider reserves who came forward at the last minute. We never have a big number of cars to choose from so being able to pick cars which have been set up for a particular discipline has never been much of an option mores the pity.

We lost the team trophy because we had too many failures, full stop. Hugh's car should have featured more, as I'm sure everybody expected but it didn't may be as a consequence of too much, too late.

With regard to the GTR/GTS issue, there has never been any discrimination here apart from performace. I don't give a stuff which variant we include if it's a proven performer and it's been put forward in the first place. In fact, I know of 2 GTSs which will be extremely competitive next year for the circuit assuming they are finished and the owners are interested in competing, Gordon's and Chris's.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Peter, out of interest what profile tyres are you running? and what is the size of the new AP front disks? are they 355 fitted inside a R33 17"??


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

255/40/17s Toyo R888s, wonderful tyres. Discs are AP Strap drive discs, 343mm inside stock 33 rims with Pagid Black pads, superb set up.

I've also got a new rear diff specced and built by Abbey (fitted Saturday morning) which I'm sure helped along with one of Andy's HICAS controllers, set No. 5 from memory.


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## g11ary (Aug 14, 2004)

I was gutted not to be at TOTB this year, but have been to every one from day one. Its been great to watch this event grow and grow.
One of the things that makes this event great is the fact that people can get up close to the action and cars and would not like to see the pit lanes closed, someone said apart from GT Battle, well Rotorstock has no restrictions to walking around cars, its what attracts people to the events, the event is no good without spectators.
It used to be road legal but last year slicks started to appear and I guess again this year, personally would like to see them banned, for me takes the edge of, if all on street tires all get same fair chance.
I think that the event has outgrown Elvington and Brunters would make a good venue, with track and a 2 mile straight. It would also be good to see the event grow, but to do that you need to have it over 2 days which I prefer, good racing and party nights. It would also get over your queuing and time limitations on the day.
If 2 clubs enter 20 cars that surely is better for the skyline than one club with 10, why not have 2 clubs showing of the skyline, and 20 or more get to enjoy the racing instead of limiting it to 10. 
TOTB was a success from day one, why? because there was no elitist there, just an event that was within reach of most peoples pockets, and a bloody good day out.


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> glen- Fensport Corrolla scored points in all 3 events, adrian has a superb car there. 9th on handling overall, 10th on both 1/4m and top speed. with a bit more luck and a mid-placed finish in each , he could have challenged for the overal title. more to come from him as well.


Thanks for that Chris  . Is a list available showing overall points scorers, and where they scored, or do I work it out myself  .

Cheers.

Glen


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## P20SPD (Aug 5, 2003)

Glen

http://www.stevend.org/totb4/totb 4 overall individual points.doc


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> Thanks for that Chris  . Is a list available showing overall points scorers, and where they scored, or do I work it out myself


Or you could join the Club as an enthusiast and get the full written report


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Interesting thread - everybody suffered failures though guys. I was there with IMOC and MR2s, we're only a little entry of 5 cars but three had problems which hit us quite hard! Despite it being our second year of entry they still limited us to 5 cars...hoping for more next year (hint ).

It's nice that SOC and GTROC both have entries with a mix of Skylines IMHO - as Fuggles has said it is not a manufacturers event - it's about the Clubs and friendly rivalry IMHO  

It's not life or death, it's supposed to be fun  
T


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## NoNothin (Aug 6, 2003)

SteveN said:


> ATCO-
> 
> Reliability is all part of the game tho mate. Its all well and good having fast cars, but if they dont last you stuffed, no excuses.
> 
> ...


Spot on!!

Some on here sound just like those American sportsmen who lose but claim that the other guy was just lucky.

YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT. NO EXCUSES.


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Fuggles said:


> Or you could join the Club as an enthusiast and get the full written report


I personally only want the results of cars/drivers that scored points in all disciplines, but am too lazy to work them out for myself 

Interesting thread though regarding the durability of all marques entered. 

Glen


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Glen the points for drivers are here:

http://www.ukviperclub.org/totb 4 overall individual points.doc

To save you having to read that, the ONLY car to get points in all disciplines was the Fensport Corolla, which got a 10th, 10th and 9th, for a total of 4 points.

Given that to get points in the 1/4 it required a 10.5 or better, it's unlikely that we'll see many cars getting points in all events in future, as cars setup to do 1/4s in the low 10s or nines are unlikely to be great on track.

Perhaps the overall prize should be awarded to the car with the highest points that scored in all events (with points being awarded to the top 20 so more people score points for consideration). As it is there's little incentive for the big power cars to run anything other than 1/4 and top speed, since you can win the event on these alone.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

NoNothin said:


> Spot on!!
> 
> Some on here sound just like those American sportsmen who lose but claim that the other guy was just lucky.
> 
> YOU LOST, DEAL WITH IT. NO EXCUSES.


I did not lose

only thing I have to deal with is where to put all 7 trophies    

Keith :smokin:


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Guy said:


> Perhaps the overall prize should be awarded to the car with the highest points that scored in all events.


Quick Mod's delete Guy's post     

That's me away to Knockhill to practice going round corners  

Keith :smokin:


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

Guy said:


> Glen the points for drivers are here:
> 
> http://www.ukviperclub.org/totb 4 overall individual points.doc
> 
> ...


Totally agree Guy. 

It's Chris and Simon's event but I just wonder if it is evolving (nothing wrong with things evolving by the way) into an event that can now be won by accumalating the most points in 2 events rather than at the outset 3. Perhaps I should check back and see what the rules were. To be honest I believe the TOTB Champion was at the inception to be decided by
total points scored irrespective of disciplines entered. Kind of answered my own question really  .

Like I said it's just interesting for me to see who scored in all disciplines as it is getting harder and hader to achieve this.

Looks like this year was again a blinding event for TOTB which is good. We need on-track events like TOTB as there are so many diluted shows and events around nowadays.

Glen


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

tigger said:


> at the end of the day, if you guys had won the trophy this conversation wouldnt even be happening....you would be too happy slapping each others backs in heart felt congratulation to even give a toss as to how many other teams had skylines in them


Surely that's a no brainer isn't it?

The conversation is happening _because_ the Skyline team (as a whole, forgetting about forum boundaries) was undermined by the politics and other bullshit that seems to exist in the Skyline scene (and by that I mean the seperation of clubs, etc). That was Guys initial point.

Even if "we" ("we" in the context of GTR Register) had won, it would've been lessened by potentially one or more other worthy contenders entering under SOC. Likewise the reverse is also true. Bottom line, for events such as this I am of the opinion we need to work together towards the common goal - putting Skylines (GTS-T, GTR, GTT, whatever) on top.

If you contrast our situation with that of MLR where they all seem to get along in harmony you can see why they won. True we had more than our fair share of retirements early on, but still.

This is why I don't bother getting involved personally with events like this. As much as I would like to go and watch fast cars going fast - the politics and clandestine motives that pervades the Skyline scene does my head in.

Incidentally, I _still_ don't know why SOC splintered away, whose "fault" it was, what occured at the time.. but on the face of it as a completely uninformed bystander it all seems a bit petty.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Durzel said:


> Even if "we" ("we" in the context of GTR Register) had won, it would've been lessened by potentially one or more other worthy contenders entering under SOC.


Not at all. The SOC scored zero points and Skylines enetered in the 200+ Club scored only a couple.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Fair enough. I meant in principal rather than "this time around" though.

I'll keep my mouth shut anyway because I don't like getting involved with politics if I can help it - it stresses me out too much.


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

C20 John Reynolds	Nissan Skyline R33 GTR 200+ Club top speed 8points,	1/4m 4=	total 12. 
thats the points won by our top placed car, we also had grant parker (mk1 golf) and Adrian smith score points.

for info the first totb was decided by the drag shootout only , which ronnie won, no points were available for overall, neither was there a team trophy. We brought in the current points system from totb2 onward, to make it a proper 3 cornered event. ronnie won it overall then without winning each event, but by being very good on all 3!


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## TOKYO (Jun 28, 2001)

chris-m said:


> for info the first totb was decided by the drag shootout only , which ronnie won, no points were available for overall, neither was there a team trophy. We brought in the current points system from totb2 onward, to make it a proper 3 cornered event. ronnie won it overall then without winning each event, but by being very good on all 3!


Cheers for that Chris.

Glen


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

Guy said:


> Perhaps the overall prize should be awarded to the car with the highest points that scored in all events (with points being awarded to the top 20 so more people score points for consideration). As it is there's little incentive for the big power cars to run anything other than 1/4 and top speed, since you can win the event on these alone.


I like this school of thought...

How about something like Winners in each discipline take 100 points, with 99 for second, 98 for third etc etc 

That way it should be reasonable that everyone will be able to register points in each event. 

Then work out the average points for the 3 events and thats your individual winner? 

Team scores could be worked out by combining each members average score?

While "specialist cars" push the boundaries, it doesnt highlight "the best all rounder". Isnt that the aim? 

Maybe it needs to grow into 5 'Main prizes' 
- Team trophy
- Best Combined Individual
- Fastest Drag
- Fastest Top speed
- Fastest Handling

All IMO.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Dave_R1001 said:


> I like this school of thought...
> 
> How about something like Winners in each discipline take 100 points, with 99 for second, 98 for third etc etc


The fact that it's *Ten* of the Best means that only *ten* score.  


Dave_R1001 said:


> Maybe it needs to grow into 5 'Main prizes'
> - Team trophy
> - Best Combined Individual
> - Fastest Drag
> ...


It already is. there are awards for each of these categories, plus other awards plus an overall winner


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

TOKYO said:


> Looks like this year was again a blinding event for TOTB which is good. We need on-track events like TOTB as there are so many diluted shows and events around nowadays.
> Glen


Don't forget GT-Battle Glen  

It is interesting reading all of this thread for someone like me. I never applied to the GTR register team as my car is not fast enough on the 1/4 mile & top speed, and went in with 200plus to see how fast my car is around a handling course compared to the 'big boys'. I did alright but failed to do as well as I had expected. Congratulations to Peter for putting a skyline up at the top of the handling.
Looking at the skyline owners club (which I am a member of as well), they had GTR and GTS entries and ran similar times to me. Admittedly they scored less points but I wonder if I would have been nice and relaxed running with them, without too much pressure. 
Do you think that this is all getting a bit serious?
Anyway, it would be nice to have points scored lower down so that more than one car scores in all three discliplines.
Dave


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Fuggles said:


> The fact that it's *Ten* of the Best means that only *ten* score.


No it meant that only ten cars are entered for each team ie the Ten Best from each Club/Make - that was the original intention. Hence the link into the debate - otherwise why not have three Skyline Clubs each entering 10 cars...

There is no reason for not having more points scoring , say to 50 places. This would give rise to much wider rankings, as currently a car that comes 11th in all three events is deemed pointless, whereas a car that came 10th in one and 150th in the other two gets a point - I know which car I would consider the better car overall.........

Guy


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I agree, I had 5th highest top speed in my class, 7th in my class at handling, 14th in 1/4 mile in my class - 0 points.

Ant.


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

Fuggles said:


> The fact that it's *Ten* of the Best means that only *ten* score.
> 
> It already is. there are awards for each of these categories, plus other awards plus an overall winner



Are you sure?   

My understanding was the same as Guy's, ten cars from each club...  

I think it would provide better entertainment, closer competition and more incentive to make your car an all rounder rather than a 'one trick pony'.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

It is. But everything is predicated by the number 10. It's the mathematical equivalent of illiteration.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

AJFleming said:


> What over Dagenham dustbins?  Even a Mazda 323 owner has the right to that superiority


LOL  

I take it you not realised a RWD 3door Cossie with only about 450bhp (Lee's Martini livieried one) was 5th overall in RWD, was a whole second faster than you over the 1/4mile, and also faster than ALL the RWD Skylines, and was running terminals almost 10mph faster than your mega power RX7 then?     

Black dyno never lies 


(PS, not causing trouble, just proving a point  )


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

But John, Im not talking about HOW it works, merely making suggestions for the future.

It may neccessitate a bit more administration but I really dont see how extending the points system by a factor of 10 (keeping with your theme ) will do anything except to make for closer and better competition?


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## ahapartridge (May 19, 2003)

Dave_R1001 said:


> I like this school of thought...
> 
> How about something like Winners in each discipline take 100 points, with 99 for second, 98 for third etc etc
> 
> ...


I think that is a good basis, maybe have a bit of a progresive points award to give the top 3 of each discipline a small advantage, say 100 for first, 90 second 75 third, then 70,69,68, 67,66,65,64..... etc etc


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

I cant see why it wouldnt be a problem?

It would get rid of the "Theres no point in me running a 1/4, im too slow for the top 10", "My car is a drag car not a circuit car so I wont score any points" etc etc... 

It would mean all cars can run in all classes and still have points to contribute toward their equated average. Thus, not running in one discipline would seriously handicap you from winning the "All rounder" trophy. 

I dont want this to be taken as any sort of dig or detraction from anyone or their achievements. Its all in aid of good healthy debate )


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

SteveN said:


> LOL
> 
> I take it you not realised a RWD 3door Cossie with only about 450bhp (Lee's Martini livieried one) was 5th overall in RWD, was a whole second faster than you over the 1/4mile, and also faster than ALL the RWD Skylines, and was running terminals almost 10mph faster than your mega power RX7 then?
> 
> ...


 I like them really but you deserved that. My car is not setup for 1/4 miles so it will never be great on them.

What was his 1.25 miles terminal?


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

He didnt do a top speed run. Tho a Saff did 175, and even more amusingly a Ford Granada did same as yourself, 183mph

Shame Rod Tarrys broke his diff, he was on for 200 easy, done it before at Brunters and had about 200bhp more now


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> I agree, I had 5th highest top speed in my class, 7th in my class at handling, 14th in 1/4 mile in my class - 0 points.
> 
> Ant.


Agree with you Ant. You should have scored points.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

SteveN said:


> He didnt do a top speed run. Tho a Saff did 175, and even more amusingly a Ford Granada did same as yourself, 183mph
> 
> Shame Rod Tarrys broke his diff, he was on for 200 easy, done it before at Brunters and had about 200bhp more now


That Granada was awesome, too good for you Steve I think a 950cc Fiesta mk2 is more suited to you  , low compression ofcourse (IE f*cked)  
I beat that Granada by 0.3mph later in the day when there was less headwind we could have run better but we didnt want to push our luck those top speed runs are tough on the cars.

I was truly shocked to see how quick the Vipers were around the handling course.

Ant.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Lol.

You not wrong about the Vipers, VERY quick, esp for such a huuuuge car, I guess having 335 wide rear tyres helps somewhat tho, lol


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

SteveN said:


> LOL
> 
> I take it you not realised a RWD 3door Cossie with only about 450bhp (Lee's Martini livieried one) was 5th overall in RWD, was a whole second faster than you over the 1/4mile, and also faster than ALL the RWD Skylines, and was running terminals almost 10mph faster than your mega power RX7 then?
> 
> ...


and a 3dr cossie weighs what 1100 kgs? striped out about a 1000?


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Yes I think thats the only way with a RWD at elvington, us mortals with rwd and 265 rear tyres can forget it.


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## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

AJFleming said:


> That Granada was awesome, too good for you Steve I think a 950cc Fiesta mk2 is more suited to you  , low compression ofcourse (IE f*cked)
> I beat that Granada by 0.3mph later in the day when there was less headwind we could have run better but we didnt want to push our luck those top speed runs are tough on the cars.
> 
> I was truly shocked to see how quick the Vipers were around the handling course.
> ...


surely the R32 must have better co drag efficiency than a granny.. keiths one aside most never really made it to 180, Lisa did how ever, but prolly required a lot of power to get there


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

That Granny quite clearly had a LOT of power and torque.

Ant.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

GTR-Zilla said:


> surely the R32 must have better co drag efficiency than a granny.. keiths one aside most never really made it to 180, Lisa did how ever, but prolly required a lot of power to get there


A lot of Skylines made over 180mph and last year several made 190+


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

GTR-Zilla said:


> and a 3dr cossie weighs what 1100 kgs? striped out about a 1000?


His wasnt mega stripped out, but about 1250kg standard, same as an RX7

Ants Rx7 is nicely stripped out too remember.


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## chris-m (Dec 21, 2004)

keith was doing 190 in under a mile and had to lift off!


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

AJFleming said:


> That Granny quite clearly had a LOT of power and torque.
> 
> Ant.


The bloke who owns it posts on 22b.com 

IIRC it's mid 500's for both power & torque.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Posts on PF too.

He DROVE that thing all the way from Northern Ireland and back to TOTB.

Full standard interior too


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## tigger (Jan 3, 2002)

I ran an 11.3 quarter and a top speed of 180mph, dont think I could have gone any quicker on the quarter, could possibly have notched up the top speed a bit maybe, and could have gone a bit quicker on the handling, but not bad really for a car with about 600bhp in full road trim. Was a 33 GTR, not 32 on the sheet though


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

These were my top speeds on the day:

1. 169.9	
2. 168.6	
3. 174.0	
4. 184.0

Just a little background to those figures... Runs one and 2 were done with my ignition retarded 5 degs from the base map, I was using some 109 and retarded the ignition rather than advance it.  So 10 degs of advance = approx 15mph over that distance....

Run 3 was where I couldn't select 3rd gear, fluffed about and then put her straight into 4th. Run 4 was an OKish run but couldn't find out what speed I'd hit so I decided to call it a day at that as my other runs were so pish poor... if only I'd known, might have been tempted to do a few more.


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Just watched the very first TOTB on Men & Motors .... amazing how the competitions popularity and the performance of the competitors has changed...


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Peter said:


> These were my top speeds on the day:
> 
> 1. 169.9
> 2. 168.6
> ...


Here's a thought. As it's the drivers who want to know more than anyone else and as the top speeders are way down the end of the runway. How difficult would it be to have a small display board at the end of the straight on the way back with the last fly-by speed on it? By the time you've slowed, turned around and are doing a steady 30mph to return the number could be up and ready for the driver to see.


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## Tim (Jan 6, 2003)

*Top speed run*

I usually just turn off the return road and collect the slip from the timekeepers. Don't suppose the non regulars at Elvington would know you can do that.
A display would avoid the need to stop though.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

chris-m said:


> keith was doing 190 in under a mile and had to lift off!


Chris

It took me 26.96 seconds at 40 mph to do the first 1/4  
of my top speed run.

before i gave it some up the 1.25 mile  

Keith :smokin:


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## P20SPD (Aug 5, 2003)

Keith, was that the run where you trundelled off the line some time just after 3pm?


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

keith said:


> It took me 26.96 seconds at 40 mph to do the first 1/4
> of my top speed run.
> 
> before i gave it some up the 1.25 mile
> ...


So when are we going to data-log your cars full potential at Elvington or Brunters Keith?

Guy

BTW I'll pay for the venue...........


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Guy said:


> So when are we going to data-log your cars full potential at Elvington or Brunters Keith?
> 
> Guy
> 
> BTW I'll pay for the venue...........


Guy

We are making a few changes to the car,we had a small
problem on the top speed runs.
we were running a lot higher Exhaust GasTemps than what the car was mapped
to run,we don't know why that is yet ???

On the top speed runs I was not trying till after I went past the 1/4 mile
then I gave it everything in 3rd,4th,5th,6th gear then I pulled 9000 revs
in 6th I looked over and the Exhaust Gas Temps were at 1000 degrees
and I was about 1/2 a mile from the finish,I lifted off the throttle
then coasted for about 4 or 5 seconds then back on the power for the last 
1/4 mile watching what the Exhaust Gas Temps were doing I had to lift and 
coast through the flying finish not very happy that I did not do 200+

At 9000 rev's in 6th with the 26 diameter tyres my car should do 217 mph

Guy i will give you a call soon 
it's a pity you and Henry were not there.

thanks Keith


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

P20SPD said:


> Keith, was that the run where you trundelled off the line some time just after 3pm?


I think it was,everyone must have been thinking WTF is he doing  
there is no point holding the car flat out on the stop for 3/4 mile

Keith :smokin:


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

What happened to the Supra's this year?

I see from the 1/4 times, most of them only lasted a few runs, with the last passes being really long and low terminals (i.e. something broken??)


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Keith,

You won and the car didn't blow up - thats the only result you want......  

Keep me updated and we'll sort something out when you are ready.

Guy


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