# Track spec fuel system question....



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Right, I'm going down the road of Fuel cell, swirl pot and decent pump but need some advice...

I am going to be utilising an Aeromotive A-1000 single pump....








from the 2.5L swirl pot...








up front to a t-piece and then to both ends of my Tomei rail. 
The JAZ tank I'm looking at has 2 outlets...








and I was thinking of using 2 Facet silver top pumps to feed the swirl pot...









Question is would 1 lift pump be enough?? or should I go for 2??

TT


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

1 lifter pump is sufficient as it isn't under pressure.

My Nur ran the Aeromotive A1000 pump, feeding 6nr 1000cc HKS injectors, using an HKS lifter pump to the rear swirl pot, and an abbey motorsport mini swirl pot at the front of the car which also double as a tee to feed either end of the HKS fuel rail. I also had a couple of Aeromotive fuel filters along the way. The centre feed of the fuel rail then went to a SARD FPR I had.

Would suggest you mount the A1000 on AV mounts as it'll be very noisey otherwise, as in distractingly noisey!!

Regards
Nito


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

You dont need a surge tank if you run a fuel cell that has one built into it.
Supply is off one fitting, return goes in the other


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Not sure how much power your wanting to make but we found with 2 x A1000 pumps we could only get enough fuel for just over 1000whp, they do NOT flow anything like the fuel your led to believe when you run them under efi pressures + boost, be carefull.

The swirl pot in your picture is not suitable as it is shown either.

How many liters per minutes will the facet lift pump flow unloaded? I'd say 1 would be plenty and I presume you want a lift pump because you'll be setting the fuel cell low in the car and the swirl pot higher in the boot?

Rob


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

A few things there...
Firstly my power goal is a max of about 575whp so I reckon 1 A1000 should be OK. I intend to remove stock tank, cut out boot floor and replace with a fabricated tray very low down to house the fuel cell. I see there are a couple of different specs of facet silver top pump...my mate has an unused road-spec pump kit with the following specs:-
4-5.5psi @ 12V
with a flow of 30USG/hr

I _think_ that that should be adequate to lift a decent supply of fuel to the swirl pot..

TT


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> .
> 
> The swirl pot in your picture is not suitable as it is shown either.
> 
> ...



whats wrong with the swirl pot Rob ?


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

i presume matt its because it only has one outlet for the pumps and is too small at that..


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

not considering the motorsport 044?

Dont think you'll need a surge tank if you have a bafflad/foam filled/sumped fuel cell.

Our 32 is 540AWHP or somthing like that...

We run a Tomei (276lph) in tank lifter pump, standard tank, RIPS 2l (i think) surge tank with 2 outlets to 2x Bosch 910 pumps feeding twin entry rail. Return to surge tank of course.

As we up power we can replace the 910's with 044's


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

tarmac terror said:


> Firstly my power goal is a max of about 575whp so I reckon 1 A1000 should be OK.


Depending on your base fuel pressure and the amount of boost you want to run it "may" just make it, personally I'd go with 2 x 910s or 044s for the same or less money, that way you also have a pump supplying each end of the rail.





tarmac terror said:


> I intend to remove stock tank, cut out boot floor and replace with a fabricated tray very low down to house the fuel cell. I see there are a couple of different specs of facet silver top pump...my mate has an unused road-spec pump kit with the following specs:-
> 4-5.5psi @ 12V
> with a flow of 30USG/hr


30 gal/hr is less than 2 liters per minute, not enough, but you may find that if you plumb it right and run that pump with no pressure it might flow enough and be OK if you have a big enough surge tank.

In your application I'd be tempted to ditch the surge tank idea, just run the foam filled cell and pull from each outlet with a 910 or 044 going to each end of the rail (just as I did with the 240z)

Rob


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Hmmm...fair enough..
If you lot reckon I dont need a swirl pot then thats fine...saves weight and money but I always assumed it was pretty mandatory for track/comp work. I suppose, thinking about it, that 1 pump to each outlet would probably work. Only concern is that fuel cell has 1 other port which is either vent or fuel return. Not sure how to overcome that particular issue...

TT




R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Depending on your base fuel pressure and the amount of boost you want to run it "may" just make it, personally I'd go with 2 x 910s or 044s for the same or less money, that way you also have a pump supplying each end of the rail.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

dont know if it helps you mate, but i run two in tank tomei pumps only twin feed etc. car has [email protected] the hubs and i do a good few trackdays running toyo 888 tyres. only on few occasions do i get surge and thats because fuel level is about a 1/4 tank. i monitor mine using my fuel pressure gauge in car. if i get surge the pressure flickers. telling me the pumps are not quite in fuel.


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

i know that sean morris on here did a foam filled 34gtr std tank some time back, i will be trying to find some info on this.or i may send one of the tomei pump pick ups over the tank centre and run it in the left side,so you have a sock in each side of the tank. its right handers that cause the problem..


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Cheers for the info. I have a Nismo in-tank at the moment thats done less than 500miles on it but its going to have to go as I do not want to retain the std fuelling system. 
I think perhaps tank, with 1 outlet to each pump prefilter , then to pump then rail, reg and back to tank. But how will I vent the bloody thing??

TT


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

how will I vent the bloody thing??

drill the tank and put a bulkhead fitting in there


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

TT
Heres what I would so
Buy a foam filled cell, like the one in the photo that has the sump built into it
Run 2 x 044's / one off each outlet in the sump
1 o44 to each end of the rail
the return goes to a new bulkhead fitting you put in the tank ...
vent it off the factory fuel cell vent 

sorted

+ inline filters obviously


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

GT-R Glenn said:


> TT
> Heres what I would so
> Buy a foam filled cell, like the one in the photo that has the sump built into it
> Run 2 x 044's / one off each outlet in the sump
> ...


Ditto


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Yeah, hadnt though about that...seems odd that they dont provide 2 auxilliary feeds i.e 1 return and 1 vent.

How bizarre..

TT


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

tarmac terror said:


> Yeah, hadnt though about that...seems odd that they dont provide 2 auxilliary feeds i.e 1 return and 1 vent.
> 
> How bizarre..
> 
> TT


Your looking at a carbed bogan V8 orientated race cell, it was only 6 months ago they even knew efi existed!!! :smokin:


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Your looking at a carbed bogan V8 orientated race cell, it was only 6 months ago they even knew efi existed!!! :smokin:


:chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:

Just like the Aussies eh...

TT


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

I don't see the merit in two pumps personally. If one fails you're less likely to notice and end up running in a lean condition, also it's twice the wiring etc.

Surely the A1000 is good for more than you're suggesting? From what your saying one A1000 is struggling at 500wbhp which isn't the case. My old nur is running 700plus flywheel with no fuel issues on a single. Their website states upto 1000bhp EFI forced induction and Demon Tweeks rate it at 800bhp (all flywheel I presume) so there may be some truth in them being over rated but surely not by that much. Guess the RB30s are thirstier!! 

Cheers
Nito


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

Guess the RB30s are thirstier!! 

oh yes nito.......................alot


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Well, that was what I was thining Nito..

Next thing I've been mulling over is tank capacity... I reckon an 8 gallon cell is ample....say the car returns 5mpg, thats theoretically 40 miles on a full tank. I've looked at most UK tracks and they are generally well under 2 miles long. Even with a half full tank that should give me an EASY 20-odd laps.

What do you lot think??

TT


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

NITO said:


> Surely the A1000 is good for more than you're suggesting? From what your saying one A1000 is struggling at 500wbhp which isn't the case. My old nur is running 700plus flywheel with no fuel issues on a single. Their website states upto 1000bhp EFI forced induction and Demon Tweeks rate it at 800bhp (all flywheel I presume) so there may be some truth in them being over rated but surely not by that much. Guess the RB30s are thirstier!!
> 
> Cheers
> Nito


800bhp at low base pressure and lowish boost maybe.

Check the flow chart they supply with volts V fuel pressure (base pressure + boost) V flow and you'll see they are no-where near 1000hp with the kinds of base pressure and boost a decent RB runs.

In the drag-r we had 1000cc injectors, 50psi base pressure (to try and get enough flow from the 1000cc inj) and we were limited to 1.9 bar of boost and 1050whp with 2 x A1000s as the flow fell on its a$$ when trying to pump 80psi.

We run 3 x 044s with all the 1000whp+ builds now and they've been great.

Rob


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

tarmac terror said:


> say the car returns 5mpg, thats theoretically 40 miles on a full tank. I've looked at most UK tracks and they are generally well under 2 miles long. Even with a half full tank that should give me an EASY 20-odd laps.
> 
> What do you lot think??
> 
> TT


I think your maths is off a bit mate unless "well under 2 miles" = 1 mile. :chuckle:

20 x 2 mile laps = 40 miles and based on your estimate of 5mpg you'll need to run a full tank not a half full one.


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Rob,

I ran a base pressure of 3 bar plus max 1.7 bar boost so 4.7 bar fuel pressure. Doesn't flow drop when you increase pressure too much anyway? 80psi is like 5.5bar!! Are you running 2.5bar of boost?

Cheers
Nito


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

read above


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

:smokin:Ok, re-read. 

Found some interesting data demonstrating the flow drop vs pressure increase here, with various pumps all tested at 12v with varying pressure.

Fuel Systems, Parts & Accesories

Basically at 3bar flow is 405lph. At 4.7bar as in my application, it drops to 338lph and at 5.4 bar as per your appication it drops to 292lph.

Cheers
Nito


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Plus a one way valve ahead of both pumps - otherwise if a pump fails the fuel can go back through the failed pump and you'll either run lean or - not run at all.

Rob, if i read the photo correctly, on the Borg are you running the fuel into the rear of the rail and taking it off the front to the regulator?

I just wondered what folks thought of that set up, as opposed to feeding both ends?

I've got two 044s coming from a swirl pot under the rear of the car with both pumps feeding the rear of the rail via a T piece and the outlet coming off the front of the rail to the FPR with the centre outlet blanked off. One of the pumps is controlled via the V pro and only comes in above certain throttle/revs.

I do worry about the T piece at the rear of the rail as not sure if the two pumps end up "fighting" against each other. I guess a Y conector would be better or a mini swirl pot like Abbey use before the rail. But my setup has run tens as is?. 

I have been thinking about changing to feed both ends with both pumps running continuously. But for motorway cruising for example one pump is plenty and they do draw quite a bit of current when both running?

Any thoughts folks? with rear only feed to the rail is there any way the front cylinders could see less fuel pressure? or would the FPR ensure constant presure across the rail? 

I'd really like to know the answer to that one?


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Good point,

Also, if you don't fire the engine up while the pump is priming/pressurising you'll loose all the priming fuel pressure. Did this on mine, bit of a faux pa as its a PITA to have to turn off and reprime.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Found this picture from Gijse R32 build thread...








Looks like he's using 2 facet-type pumps as lifters to the swirl pot and then a pair of HP pumps to the front....

My injectors are Sard 720's I think and I would be using 2540's at whatever boost pressure is appropriate for the HP. Fuel pressure at the moment is set a 3bar IIRC...

What do you think of Gijse setup??? This is exactly what I was planning on doing in the first place..

Anyone?

TT


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

really dont see the need for the 2extra pumps and surge tank if the cell is setup well (I.e baffled/foam etc)


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Facets "tick" when running, really annoying noise...


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

easier way to do the job if your running a proper fuel tank. 

When I used to work in the race car buisness i.e GT and prototypes cars we used to run everything in the tank.

2 pumps is always a worry as Nito says lose 1 pump and your have a melted motor. One way valves I feel dont work either as we have tried them and they didnt work.

Stick a pump that will run submerged in the tank, most good quality tank will have a good pick up system internally fitted or you can buy something to fit inside. Nice -8 feed , t piece the feed into both ends of the rail - 6 return via a good FPR , fitting the pump in the tank saves a lot of plumbing issues and wirring isues , you can get good quality bulkhead fittings connectors from Duetsch supplies , I would need to have a sort around for a good pump that will work submerged. There was a new fuel pump supplier in the back of the Autosport which I will look for when I get to work tomorrow.

simpler is better far less to go wrong.


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

mark, have you ripped a skyline tank apart to see if there is a way to baffle the tank internally or tun two pumps but each pump feeding from each side of the tank?. just wondered..


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

you cant get a pump in the tank that can pick up from the other side, but I have tried 2 pumps and never had much luck.

I know other tuners only do it that way i.e 2 pumps in the fuel tank , the top connector wont take the load 2 pumps will put on the connector that is designed for 1 pump, we used to make another alloy top that used proper connectors when we run a external swirl pot and use the orginal pump as a lift pump.

It depends really if your running the car as a road car or a track car to which way you go with a fuel system , if you run the whole system in the car your have to run some good quality plastic fuel lines to stop the fuel smell, we done a few system totally under the car that worked well , no smell , but I always worry about running anodized fittings in an area that could be covered in road salt in the winter.

As they say many ways to skin a cat.


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

cheers mark,
i have twin in tank tomei pumps and a fuel pressure gauge in car to warm if one pump stops.
as for fitting, i did my own unique northern monkey way..lol


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

quick one mark.
would it be possible to extend one of the twin pump pick up sock to the other side and wieght it down then just leave the pump on the cradle with the other one?. 

just thinking out loud...


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

but even if 1 pumps fails it will still run the same fuel pressure as the fuel pressure reg cant work out flow it will only control fuel pressure.

it the real world fuel will take the easiest route so if 1 pump fails the fuel will push back up the feed from the failed pump , this will lower the fuel flow not the fuel pressure.

Bernie how would you get to the other side of the tank , the tank has only 1 service hole and I know I only have 1 elbow and a arm that wont reach. LOL


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

rockabilly said:


> quick one mark.
> would it be possible to extend one of the twin pump pick up sock to the other side and wieght it down then just leave the pump on the cradle with the other one?.
> 
> just thinking out loud...



JAZ do a funky bat-wing pickup..









Needs to be used with foam apparently (I presume to locate the thing). I suppose that would do the trick...

TT


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

I think I will go down the tank-2xpumps-rail-return setup..
I suspect that setup will cope with what I need it for. The car is destined to be a dedicated track car and as Mark says above, keeping it simple is the best way to go. I'm a big subscriber to that theory and its generally easier to diagnose problems.

TT


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

why run 2 pumps when 1 will do the job , espec when you can fit it in your race spec tank.

there is a new Bosch fuel pump that is better than the old 044 if you have a look around you could run that with the following inside your tank

Aero Tec Laboratories UK Race Car Division - Internal Collector System with 1 Pump Mount to suit Bosch Pumps, Internal Collectors, CL-AA-026

even simplier ;-)


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Next question is regarding the electrical aspect...
So, say I have my 2 Bosch 044's and want them to run from a dash mounted ON/OFF switch (thereby removing the fuel control module) what would be the simplest way to achieve this?? The car has an Cartek FIA electrical cutoff which would disable the pumps when activated so this aspect is covered..

I suspect that I would take a feed through the switch and send it to a relay(s) at the back and then from relays to pump. Pictures on a *** packet would be ideal :chuckle:

TT


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

fuel pumps should always be controlled via ecu , car stops fuel pumps stop. if they dont fuel under pressure always will start a good fire.

If you want extra on/off this can be done easily. just place the switch to cut the earth to the relays which is normally controlled via the ECU ( most ECU'S supply an earth or 0 Volt in motec words to control a relay to power the fuel pump/s


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

* I know I only have 1 elbow and a arm*

was just going to tie a brick to it and throw it over .lol






joking apart i know what you mean. reason i ask this is we have a ex japanese track car up here, you can run this round the track on 888,s with the fuel low warning light on no surge. what i have noticed due to it having no back seat is that when cornering right the pump runs quite?. but when you corner left you can hear start to run dry. this is obviously extreme,but as most track in japan have right hand corner i think i suspect a mod of some description has been done, what?, i do not know..


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

but if you look down in a 33GTR stock tank it has some walls/gates in the stock tank to try and control the fuel and keep it around the fuel sock , I have seen numerous cars with the sock not in the correct place these cars gets real bad fuel surge.


But the 32 is even worse than a 33 GTR with fuel pick up , anything under a 1/4 of a tank will cause problems of fuel surge in a 32GTR


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

Mark did you ever try the Andair ball type check valves. They look a lot more effective than the Goodridge/Earls flapper ones.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

I can say I havent but from what I have been told by people these valves are meant for low pressure not high pressure. like anti roll over valves in fuel tanks and anti feed back in dry sump set ups.


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## Tokaikid (May 7, 2007)

Abbey M/S said:


> But the 32 is even worse than a 33 GTR with fuel pick up , anything under a 1/4 of a tank will cause problems of fuel surge in a 32GTR


I can vouch for this.
Gerrards at Mallory ( a very fast long right hander) with a Tomei in tank causes problems with anything less than 1/3 of a tank.


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

I'd agree with the simpler is best approach, I don't really like having to have two pumps, extra fuel lines and a swirl pot under the car and all the extra noise from the pumps. I previously had two pumps in tank and two lines to the rail, but when one pump failed the other pumped straight back through it. Luckily I was driving slowly on the road, it did have me scratching my head for a while though as it would tick over but stall if you tried to pull away.

But is there a single in-tank pump that could cope with over 700atw when needed and run continously on the road at low duty and if so would it need one of those expensive electronic fuel pump controllers to vary the voltage?


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## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

i noticed on mine at zolder this year that when it cam on boost it was slightly hesitant so i backed off,i have twin intank and a 60mm greddy feul pressure gauge in car. when i drove back in the pits fuel pressure was lower than normal. i checked the fuses on the 2 realys for the pumps and one had blown and as soon as i started the car fuel pressure was back up and boost was regained smoothly..


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## ShaggyR32GTR (Feb 29, 2008)

blue34 said:


> I'd agree with the simpler is best approach, I don't really like having to have two pumps, extra fuel lines and a swirl pot under the car and all the extra noise from the pumps. I previously had two pumps in tank and two lines to the rail, but when one pump failed the other pumped straight back through it. Luckily I was driving slowly on the road, it did have me scratching my head for a while though as it would tick over but stall if you tried to pull away.
> 
> But is there a single in-tank pump that could cope with over 700atw when needed and run continously on the road at low duty and if so would it need one of those expensive electronic fuel pump controllers to vary the voltage?


I would also like to know what single pump on its own can handle big power demands?
I have 3x 044's in tank at the mo which is how it came from japan, it more than supply's the amount of fuel i need but i do not like the idea of any of the pumps dying and making the car run lean. I'm re doing my fuel system for next season's racing so want to make everything as simple as possible.
At the mo i have an Aeromotive pro-series pump, filters, fuel cell etc. Just wondering if the big pump will be man enough on its own??


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Hey Rob a single facet pump is what you need, they use those on Range Rovers and they weigh much more than a GTR so it'll easy cope. You could test it during the eliminators at the first round, it'll be fine


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

1 x 044 will supply enough petrol for 700hp


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

OK, so after all the debate is it fair to say that....
With my twin outlet fuel cell I should use a Y-piece and connect the outlets together to form a singe line. Plumb this to a 044 then through a filter and send this to the engine bay where I already have a T-piece feeding fuel to each side of the rail and then through the reg back to the tank???
If this is enough for the HP I'm looking for then thats great!!

However, I keep going back to my other idea of each output of fuel cell feeding 1x044 then through a filter and then through -10 lines (currently using -6 from OEM engine bay filter onwards) to the engine bay where they attach directly to each end of the Tomei rail. I cant decide whether I should then use -12 from the rail return to the reg and then back to the tank or whether I should keep using -10 from rail return to reg and then -12 from reg back to tank??

Thoughts on both the above. 

Sorry to keep going round in circles but I want to be crystal clear on this before buying parts. Dont want to over-engineer things but similarly, dont want to be operating at he upper end of a single 044 (if thats the case) either..

TT


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> OK, so after all the debate is it fair to say that....
> With my twin outlet fuel cell I should use a Y-piece and connect the outlets together to form a singe line. Plumb this to a 044 then through a filter and send this to the engine bay where I already have a T-piece feeding fuel to each side of the rail and then through the reg back to the tank???
> If this is enough for the HP I'm looking for then thats great!!
> 
> ...


Twin 6an up and 8 return would be OK, 12 is a bit overkill I'd say. Have you deleted your Hicas by any chance?? just wondered as if you have you might already have a nice steel pipe under your car you could now use for the fuel return...


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Yeah, HICAS is long gone...
TBH, even if the lines were still there I probably wouldnt use them..just preference!

In hindsight your right, -12 is probably a bit much. I was forgetting just how BIG they were until I got the ruler out and physically looked at the I.D 

TT


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

how about 2 x 910s, -6 to each end of the rail, -8 back to tank, job done.

Or replace the 2 x 910's with 2 x 044s if your looking to run E85 or race gas at some stage.

Rob


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Thanks Rob, makes sense...
I MAY run race juice at some point so 044's are probably the better option of the 2 you gave.
Thanks to all who have given their thoughts on this...

TT


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