# Spun bearing.......



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Hi, 

I think I have spun a bearing (again!) 

Was out trying to map it after my recent engine mods, when after driving round an island at speed, and acceletating hard, started to hear the familiar knocking. Which got worse even though I'd slowed right down. Oil level was on the high mark - should this be higher than this? Seen someone saying they run the level on the bevel on the dipstick - higher than the high mark...

I'm keen to prevent this happening again, and have been reading various posts about ways to make the oil flow more successfully in the RB26. 

I am going to fit ACL bearings and check the crank when it's apart, hopfully there won't be damage to the crank. 

Are there any issues I need to be aware of with replacing the bearings with the engine in situ? 

Also I've read some posts saying that oil returns to the sump should be opened up to let the oil back quicker - can this be done from the bottom of the block?

Read another thread about putting restrictors in the oil feeds to the top of the engine - where do these go and where can I get them?



Cheers
Ant


----------



## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

A sump baffle is what you need or a big capacity sump with trap doors. 
You can over fill by half a litre of oil to off set the head problem but any more and the crank will wisk air into the oil which will cause the oil pump and bearings to wear quickly.


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Which is the recommended baffle kit to go for?


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

first time i spun a bearing my face dropped to the floor in sadness lol , if it happend a second time so quickly i'd want to bash my head hard against a wall lol ( not quite :runaway: )


----------



## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

Ant GTR said:


> Which is the recommended baffle kit to go for?


It depends on your oil pump and how you use the car but the Tomei baffle is good.


----------



## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

Baffle is ok. Sump extention is better. RIPS to a very good sump extention as do Tomei.


----------



## jasper99 (Jun 16, 2008)

i had a tomei restrictor fitted along with a tomei sump baffle and always run about half a litre over the maximum mark, no issues so far thankfully.

Can you remove the sump on an r33gtr with the engine in situ? 
i found it near impossible on my r32 gtr.

good luck getting it fixed


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

jasper99 said:


> i had a tomei restrictor fitted along with a tomei sump baffle and always run about half a litre over the maximum mark, no issues so far thankfully.
> 
> Can you remove the sump on an r33gtr with the engine in situ?
> i found it near impossible on my r32 gtr.
> ...



Where abouts does this restrictor go?

Has anyone changed rod bearings without taking the engine out on R33?


----------



## purpleskyline (May 27, 2005)

as far as i am aware you cant, its an engine out job,
restictor goes in the rear oil way to head,i think. so head off as well ,


----------



## Julio2906 (Mar 18, 2009)

:sadwavey:
Its an engine out job im sorry to say,mine is having the bottom end done after a bearing sliped and welded itself to a roduke:
I looked at doing it from the underneath and without removing the subframe etc. its just not possible.


----------



## tweenierob (Aug 5, 2003)

If you have bearing failure there is a lot more to repairing the engine than just replacing the bearings. Even if the crank looks ok (of which it wont).
Cleaning is the key to not repeating the procedure.

Rob


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

The car was stopped just after the knocking started and so I'm hoping that the crank will look okay, I'm going to fit ACL bearings and ARP rod bolts. Might go for baffle kit for the sump too. 

I was thinking of removing the subframe and doing it from under, I'd be able to do it in the garage then, but if not possible then I'll have to cover the car out side and work on the engine in the garage.


----------



## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

hi mate, you cant remove the subrame the engine mounts to it, would be alot of work to hang the engine of a crane, i can get one out on my own in about 2hours, just yank it out mate honest.


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Well volunteered Bernie, get youself over here and give me a hand


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Ant GTR said:


> Well volunteered Bernie, get youself over here and give me a hand


maybe if you keep the bottles of bud flowing he might do it 


i always prefered doing the longer engine work jobs with bottles of bud by my side :chuckle:


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Plenty of beer here ! !


----------



## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

Ant GTR said:


> I'm keen to prevent this happening again,



Only real solution is to sell the RB26 engine:chuckle:


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

ok - keen for it not to happen to often!


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Sorry but a second vote to not bother trying to do change the bearing as the crank will be scrap. Even if its only been run for seconds, sorry. Get the engine out and rebuild it properly.

The restrictor goes in the head surface of the block


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

I am borrowing a crane and engine stand as I speak...


----------



## rockabilly (Oct 15, 2003)

Ant GTR said:


> Plenty of beer here ! !


good one mate...

quick tip, take the box out first, remove bonnet and they come out nearly straight up,unplug wiring harness near fusebox, leave starter motor on the block, remove downpipes, and remove one of the engine mounting brackets from the block first, then lift out..bernie


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Thanks for the info - maybe I'll post some pics. 

A how to... or perhaps a how NOT to! ha ha


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Ant GTR said:


> Thanks for the info - maybe I'll post some pics.
> 
> A how to... or perhaps a how NOT to! ha ha


T.F.S has a realy good detailed right up with pics for takeing the engine out and a rebuild of the engine .

i'll see if i can locate the link for you

here you go , he's done some realy good detail in this
RB26 Rebuild Guide (beginners) - Skyline Owners Forum


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

That is really good, most helpful


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

I think I've got some help with the job 











Anyway - DAY 1 My cars home for a while......


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

how long did he quote you for the finished job :chuckle:


----------



## benh (Aug 3, 2008)

Hi Ant,

Just to echo what the guys said- take it all out and to bits. Get the block tanked. I'm affraid the crank will probably be no good though.

For the money, i would save the future risk and put a new crank in if you can.

Cheers,

Ben.


----------



## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

tweenierob said:


> If you have bearing failure there is a lot more to repairing the engine than just replacing the bearings. Even if the crank looks ok (of which it wont).
> Cleaning is the key to not repeating the procedure.
> 
> Rob



:bowdown1::bowdown1::bowdown1:


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

ACL bearings come normal or Calico coated. 

Which ones should I be going for ?


----------



## gestun66 (Apr 15, 2007)

Ant GTR said:


> ACL bearings come normal or Calico coated.
> 
> Which ones should I be going for ?


The Calico coated ACL bearings seem to hold up really well.

What type of oil pump are you planning to use?


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

I've not got £1000 for a Tomei pump, so will be keeping the standard one.


----------



## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/111850-gtr-sump-mods.html


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Yeah thinking of doing an extended baffled sump


----------



## jasper99 (Jun 16, 2008)

car looks awesome.

when i took mine out it had only just been resprayed so i covered both front wings in clingfirm, about 10 layers actually, (my skirts are blended to my front wings so i couldnt remove the wings) come the end of the engine rebuild the wings where still immaculate,

you cant be too careful 

good luck with the rebuild


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Ant GTR , i just remembered some thing , do you have the oil feed coming of your oil catch can going back into your bottom end ? 

just that the other day GT-R Glenn mentioned it to me on a post about thats some thing handy to do when your engine is out , to have the feed tapped in the bottom so no emptying the can so all the oil recirculates .


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

jaycabs said:


> Ant GTR , i just remembered some thing , do you have the oil feed coming of your oil catch can going back into your bottom end ?
> 
> just that the other day GT-R Glenn mentioned it to me on a post about thats some thing handy to do when your engine is out , to have the feed tapped in the bottom so no emptying the can so all the oil recirculates .


The catch tank catches not only catch oil but also water vapour and steam. I cant see it being a very good idea to feed that back into the enigne.


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

David said:


> The catch tank catches not only catch oil but also water vapour and steam. I cant see it being a very good idea to feed that back into the enigne.


i know what you mean but others have done it with out issues , not sure if there is any thing else they have done to seperate the water ?


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Yeah the only thing I've seen in the catch tank is grey scummy looking stuff that smells like fuel.


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Ant GTR said:


> Yeah the only thing I've seen in the catch tank is grey scummy looking stuff that smells like fuel.


Which I think is a fuel/oil/water mix, we have just finished the design for our breather tank on our Rb30. We considered feeding back to the engine but in the end decided it was a bad idea


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

jaycabs said:


> i know what you mean but others have done it with out issues , not sure if there is any thing else they have done to seperate the water ?


My understanding is that the baffles and seperators within a catch tank would seperate the oil/water from the air together I cant see how you could then seperate them.


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

David said:


> My understanding is that the baffles and seperators within a catch tank would seperate the oil/water from the air together I cant see how you could then seperate them.


im half asleep at the moment so the thinking head is not quite switched on lol so little hard for me to think of a way if its possible to seperate them :flame:


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

rockabilly said:


> good one mate...
> 
> quick tip, take the box out first, remove bonnet and they come out nearly straight up,*unplug wiring harness near fusebox*, leave starter motor on the block, remove downpipes, and remove one of the engine mounting brackets from the block first, then lift out..bernie


Where do you mean? 

I was going to unplug all the wiring off the engine and put it to one side....


----------



## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Ive never told anyone to vent a catch can overflow into an engine .....
Maybe the rocker cover.


----------



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

that's interesting, I wonder why Nismo sells not a catch tank but a separator that feeds right into the turbo oil return, which is what I've got. There's a vent to atmosphere though, where I get the aforementioned scummy stuff, looks like cat sick, dripping out (the back of my car, the breather runs all the way under my car).

You've got big power topmount turbos, yet are on a stock sump and no baffle? That's madness.

One year ago exactly, I spun a bearing. Swore not to let it happen again. So...
- Tomei oil pump
- external turbo oil restrictors (because turbos can't handle the Tomei's oil flow)
- Tomei oil baffle
- Trust sump extension
- Accusump 2 quart reserve with manual valve (so I can preoil the bearings before even cranking over the engine)
- Cosworth bearings (very similar to ACL), carefully fitted for precise and exact clearances. That took awhile. The engine was fully assembled, then taken apart to check clearances again, run in, then disassembled yet again to recheck bearing clearances and crank thrust.
- new OEM crank
- Tomei oil restrictor in the head
- Mines cam cover oil baffles


So far, so good. Cost an arm and a leg but I never want to hear that death rattle ever again.

At a minimum run an extended baffle and Tomei oil baffle, for God's sake!!!


----------



## gestun66 (Apr 15, 2007)

kismetcapitan said:


> that's interesting, I wonder why Nismo sells not a catch tank but a separator that feeds right into the turbo oil return, which is what I've got. There's a vent to atmosphere though, where I get the aforementioned scummy stuff, looks like cat sick, dripping out (the back of my car, the breather runs all the way under my car).
> 
> You've got big power topmount turbos, yet are on a stock sump and no baffle? That's madness.
> 
> ...


I've got something similar to this same setup. It allows me to run 9000rpm on pump gas at 733whp for over a year now. Only problem is the stock oil pressure sensor couldn't handle the increased psi of the Tomei pump. I would buy a new one and the gauge would work great until I ran 9000rpm a couple of times and no more reading. 

Stay away from the Nismo pump! I've been there (the dreaded knock) my Nismo pump just quit working one day for no reason at all?

Stock pump and a Trust sump extension for those of us without the great fabricating skills (awesome work) of GT-R Glenn.

Keep your rpm's under 7,500!


----------



## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

For what its worth, we use normal acl race bearings and where ever possible vent the sump to the catch tank and have a return from the catch tank to the sump, never had any problems.

Rob


----------



## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

My concern has always been the catchment of condensation in the catch can, then dropping it into the engine oil ....
Its just a silly way to introduce water into oil ....


----------



## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Possibly true, but its usually only a problem for cars that do short bursts around town and don't get up to full operating temp, we might change the oil once a year in the 240z and there's no sign of sludge or buildup or "diluted oil" its always as clean as a whistle.

Rob


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> For what its worth, *we use normal acl race bearings *and where ever possible vent the sump to the catch tank and have a return from the catch tank to the sump, never had any problems.
> 
> Rob


Rob, Do you mean normal as in not 'Calico' coated..? I was going to order the coated ones thinking they should be better, am I wrong?


As for the other stuff, due to money (and not having any!) I will be changing bearings, change the crank, DIY a bigger sump & baffles, but will be keeping the stock pump for now. 

For the record my Day 1 photo and the 'would-be' Day 5 photo are oddly very similar...! Perhaps they'll be some progress this weekend.


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Ive never told anyone to vent a catch can overflow into an engine .....
> Maybe the rocker cover.


sorry glenn , my apologies as i must have misunderstood in another thread 
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/113924-oil-catch-tank-when-need-one.html


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Possibly true, but its usually only a problem for cars that do short bursts around town and don't get up to full operating temp, we might change the oil once a year in the 240z and there's no sign of sludge or buildup or "diluted oil" its always as clean as a whistle.
> 
> Rob


i asume then with the pistons in motion and with a consistantly warmed engine with the venting from the catch can that the moisture gets steamed and pushed out venting to the atmposphere .

you had to to careful what little filters are used on the catch can then as that would collect alot of moisture and clog up quickly wouldnt it ?


----------



## shanef (Jun 8, 2006)

I dont know why a few are suggesting the crank is going to be stuffed. It'll only be stuffed if it was driven around on after the knock was heard.

Get the crank/block/head/everything else to a qualified engineering shop to a)diagnose ur engine failure and b)check to see what parts can be re-used (with the appropriate prep)


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

shanef said:


> I dont know why a few are suggesting the crank is going to be stuffed. It'll only be stuffed if it was driven around on after the knock was heard.
> 
> Get the crank/block/head/everything else to a qualified engineering shop to a)diagnose ur engine failure and b)check to see what parts can be re-used (with the appropriate prep)


The noise is caused by the oil film being destoyed, i.e rather than the conrod/bearing being floating on an oil film on the crank, the crank is now hitting the rod/bearing. In my experiance on a few engines this is enough to destroy the crank. I have never yet seen an engine where after big end bearing failure you could just "change the bearings" the crank is always marked. Most that I have seen pic up the bearing and spin it welding it to the crank or spitting it out the side of the rod. All this happens in less than seconds at high engine speeds/loads. When you hear the noise the damage has already been done.


----------



## shanef (Jun 8, 2006)

David said:


> The noise is caused by the oil film being destoyed, i.e rather than the conrod/bearing being floating on an oil film on the crank, the crank is now hitting the rod/bearing. In my experiance on a few engines this is enough to destroy the crank. I have never yet seen an engine where after big end bearing failure you could just "change the bearings" the crank is always marked. Most that I have seen pic up the bearing and spin it welding it to the crank or spitting it out the side of the rod. All this happens in less than seconds at high engine speeds/loads. When you hear the noise the damage has already been done.


That is why you get the crank polished/ground and run the next oversize bearings. (you obviously get it checked for any cracks etc) You dont just chuck a perfectly good crank away because it is marked.


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

shanef said:


> That is why you get the crank polished/ground and run the next oversize bearings. You dont just chuck a perfectly good crank away because it is marked.


Do a search, its posible on other engines. Simply GTR cranks are hardened, this hardening isn't very thick and you go through it by grinding. Polishing /grinding also isn't the same as was suggested at the start of this thread as just changing the bearings to cure the rattle. These comments were made to avoid wasting loads of time trying to change them in car.

There are many people who have tried grinding GTR cranks and as far as I am aware no one has yet done more than a couple of hundred miles on a reground crank without it failing. There are many threads on here about the subject, the cost of a new crank isn't huge so I wouldn't want to try it. Although I have run reground cranks on many other engines successfully.


----------



## shanef (Jun 8, 2006)

David said:


> Do a search, its posible on other engines. Simply GTR cranks are hardened, this hardening isn't very thick and you go through it by grinding. Polishing /grinding also isn't the same as was suggested at the start of this thread as just changing the bearings to cure the rattle. These comments were made to avoid wasting loads of time trying to change them in car.
> 
> There are many people who have tried grinding GTR cranks and as far as I am aware no one has yet done more than a couple of hundred miles on a reground crank without it failing. There are many threads on here about the subject, the cost of a new crank isn't huge so I wouldn't want to try it. Although I have run reground cranks on many other engines successfully.


Sorry to be abrupt but u clearly have nfi. It seems ur the one that needs to do some research :chairshot


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

So your going to explain your right with a "you dont know what your talking about line".

So come on then give away your secret how many GTR engine have you rebuilt with reground crank?

What are you doing so right many other are missing? Abbey wont even use reground cranks.


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

mines a reground crank , done a few thousand miles so far and no issues and nothing out of the ordinary on the knock readings from my power fc too with 509bhp and 400lbft that im running


----------



## shanef (Jun 8, 2006)

David said:


> So your going to explain your right with a "you dont know what your talking about line".
> 
> So come on then give away your secret how many GTR engine have you rebuilt with reground crank?
> 
> What are you doing so right many other are missing? Abbey wont even use reground cranks.


what size bearings do said ground cranks need though? I wouldnt run anymore than 1st oversize on conrod and 2nd oversize on main, even though acl make a 2nd oversize for bigend and 3rd oversize for main. Then i would chuck it away.

Surely grinding cranks cant just be an aussie thing. Or is that caus we have more than half a clue?


----------



## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

> There are many people who have tried grinding GTR cranks and as far as I am aware no one has yet done more than a couple of hundred miles on a reground crank without it failing.


Stand corrected .....


Of course you can grind the crank, they arnt some mythical secret steel extracted from unobtainium .....
They are induction hardened steel


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Things are moving now!! 


Got my wing protection on - no mean feat in the wind we've had here today!












Thats about it really..... maybe more tomorrow...


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Ant GTR said:


> Things are moving now!!
> 
> 
> Got my wing protection on - no mean feat in the wind we've had here today!
> ...


do you actually get your car cover to stay on in the wind ?

a while back i put a car cover on mine and some windy times came along and even though i secured the cars tires over the sheeting so it didnt go any were , the wind still had its wicked way and managed to tare it and scuff my paint work in the process , was gale's though lol


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

The cover is not big enough (said large but way off) covers the roof and bonnet only! 

I hook it to the bottom of the car with bungee ropes


----------



## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Ant GTR said:


> The cover is not big enough (said large but way off) covers the roof and bonnet only!
> 
> I hook it to the bottom of the car with bungee ropes


looks like your sheet has a soft underside so sould be kind to your paint work though ?


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Todays progress...











Which bolts do I need to remove to disconnect the passenger drive shaft, is it the nuts on the left of this picture, or the pairs of nut's and bolts in the centre I need to remove?

Also will any oil come out of this when I do?












Cheers
Ant


----------



## shanef (Jun 8, 2006)

It the pairs of nuts u need to remove. No oil will come out.


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

cheers :thumbsup:


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Engine out..... at last!


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

*THE BEARING !*

Got it all apart now, picture shows the spun bearing on the left and one of the others on the right.....

A bit thinner and wider ha ha....!


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

Was number 6 that spun. 

See the scoring on the crank........


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

*Rod part numbers*

Interesting that the damaged rod (no.6) has a slightly different part number to the others, does this mean it's a differnet size or just different batch - ie. been rebuilt before at some point?

No.6 










All the others 1-5


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

ACL rod bearings in; 










ACL main bearings; 










Brand new crank in an lubed up 










Main bearing cap;










Trust sump extension; 










Ready to go back in; 

Just need someone to give me a lift with it now....


----------



## x.laura.x (Apr 8, 2009)

looking good.. better when it all back together  also max looks well cute.. gonna take after his dad messin with cars eyyy haha


----------



## tokes (Jul 16, 2006)

I don't want to sound like a debbie downer, but did you find any bearing material in the sump?

When my car spun a thrust bearing all the bits of metal got pushed all through the engine. Ruined my oil pump, pistons (squirters shot metal all along the bores, and then it ground into the skirts), rods, crank, block, and cams. I'd just double check to make sure the pistons and oil pump aren't knackered, as well as the cams.


----------



## Ant GTR (Jul 20, 2003)

I did did find some material in the sump, the block's oilways and oil jets were all flushed, pistons & bores were mint. No rubbish was found in the head. 

I took the oil pump apart and cleaned it all and checked clearances - all looked fine. 

So hopefully things will be good...


----------



## tokes (Jul 16, 2006)

Good, glad to hear you checked it instead of just slapping it back together. Good luck with it!


----------

