# R34 with VR38DETT



## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

I've been doing some thinking recently about building the last part of my R34 with an HKS 2.8, but after a recent drive of an R35, I wondered for the max power and torque I'm looking for (around 600HP), why not just get a VR38DETT and mate that up ?

Is that plausible ? I mean for what it will cost to make a 2.8 or 3.0 engine to run around that HP and torque reliably, maybe the cost will be similar ?

I know the purists out there will say shame on me, but I'm just wondering from a technical perspective here rather than from any other angle........

Comments ? Reasons for and against ?


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Had a 35 on our dynapack , as like you very impressed with the power/torque figures even as a standard car.

Laid the dyno sheets from the 35 over a few 2.8 conversions , Got a couple of conversions that give the same sort of figures , but using more boost , but we are still giving away 1.0ltr of capacity. It could be said running lower boost and a bigger capacity will make the motor last a lot longer which I feel Is true. But fitting a VQ to a R34 would be a major job bellhousings to be made etc etc

2.8 ltr motor , std head no porting , Step 2 V-cam, pair of 2530,s running around 1.5 bar boost , will give VQ35 torque levels and a fair few more BHP at the hubs.

Would need to look to see if the VQ motor will fit inbetween the 34 inner wings thou, maybe time to get the tape measure out later.

Fraser , I ask the customer and if he is okay I send you the dyno sheets.

Mark


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

Sounds like a great idea, would be very involved, you have to factor in all the extra work of egine mounts, custom bell housing, sump for the front diff, ecu, hell of alot of custom pipework ect, will the thing fit? Will the dump pipes clear the transmission tunnel, custom exhausts, cobb ecu to get more power.. Though a great motor the costs of doing it add up insanely quickly. IMHO the only reason you'd do it over the rb is to be ' different ' and want to shock people/be unique ect, because it's going to cost you tripple what a similar powered rb will.

Cheers, Mat.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Where would you get one from


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

One of the many crashed ones going around, or pay the 30 grand for a new one..?


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> 2.8 ltr motor , std head no porting , Step 2 V-cam, pair of 2530,s running around 1.5 bar boost , will give VQ35 torque levels and a fair few more BHP at the hubs.
> 
> Mark


Hi Mark - If you can get the dyno graphs, can you also send them to me. I am very interested to see what you've achieved with this combination. Thanks!


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Personally I would have said that the VH41 is a better engine to pick than the VQ38DETT.

Assuming that the 38 lump could be found it'd be expensive. If you were to lavish similar amounts of cash on the VH I'd imagine that a pretty special engine could be built. In fact I'd have thought that £30k would get the job done. With stock crank the VH is already 0.3 litre bigger which could be stretched to 0.8 litres with the VH45 crank. I'd bet that the VH with suitable turbos would produce more power and torque than the VQ.

There a thread here already with someone doing a build.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

But the VH41 is an old fashion design , also missing 1 piece of engineering that that a RB loves when fitted , variable cam timing. It is the way forward with any engine in my opinon. Make sup for lack of capacity , better drivability and ecomomy. Look at any modern high performance motor it normally has it fitted to both inlet and exhaust cams.

It is the way forward, the VH38 with milds mods makes awesome bhp/torque and a very wide spread of both as well.


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

The best way to do it, would be to buy an R35 GT-R. Not swap.

The VR38 is wide. The room between the towers of an R34 is not narrow, but its not as wide as a S chassis. 

A guy I knew was doing VQ swaps into 240's here in the US.

Home

There wasn't enough room to put an off the shelf turbo kit on the car. You could make manifolds and move them forward or backward, and make it work, but as I said the room between the towers of an R34 is less than a S chassis. The front suspension design is different. 

Nissan Skyline GT-R s in the USA Blog: VQ35 supercharged S13

Nissan Skyline GT-R s in the USA Blog: Supercharged VQ35 powered S13 240sx

The 2.8 liter is just that- giving up 1.0 liter of displacement. The head on a VR/VQ engine - flows better stock than a ported RB head. I am a big RB fan, but I try not to stay too much in the past with engine technology. We need to embrace , and figure out some of the new technology, and make it work for us, not against us.

In the 1980's when EFI was just stating to come into its own, it sucked. It took a while before it was embraced, and its still not all that popular everywhere. 

So back to the R35 GT-R. If its good stock , just throw a tune , exhaust, and some actuators at it , and the RB28 will really have to play catch up. 

Jeffs R32 with 2.8 , small low lift cams , GT-RS , 23 psi on 91 octane was 550 whp , 470 lb-ft on a Dynapack dyno. 27 psi and C16 we saw 635 whp , 540 lb-ft - but pegged the Dynapack 3000 so we had to ramp the boost in a little slower. 131 mph in the quarter car.


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> But the VH41 is an old fashion design , also missing 1 piece of engineering that that a RB loves when fitted , variable cam timing. It is the way forward with any engine in my opinon.


It does have variable cam timing. 

Infiniti's have had it for a while. The engines - actually the cars are next to nothing here in the US. I have had a number of Q45's though the years. Driving one now as my daily. They get up ok, but they are still a little weak on the low end. Mostly though, just gearing and how they have the trans setup.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Abbey M/S said:


> But the VH41 is an old fashion design , also missing 1 piece of engineering that that a RB loves when fitted , variable cam timing. It is the way forward with any engine in my opinon. Make sup for lack of capacity , better drivability and ecomomy. Look at any modern high performance motor it normally has it fitted to both inlet and exhaust cams.
> 
> It is the way forward, the VH38 with milds mods makes awesome bhp/torque and a very wide spread of both as well.


I understand that the VK series has variable cam timing and in one version direct fuel injection. However wisdom from the US and Oz was that the VH was a better engine. I've certainly heard of silly outputs from VHs. When I first heard of the VH I wondered if it was a pair of SR20s sharing a crank which would have meant the possibility of a VVTL v8...

I had also wondered if there was a Nissan v12 tucked away in some luxo barge somewhere. The R32/33/34 engine is 6 cylinders long so if the vee angle wasn't too great and I had a big enough shoe horn it might just fit...

Back on planet earth to my mind the R35 engine is best suited to the R35. Spending say £30k on just the engine to then spend another load of cash to put it into an R34 seems silly.

More pointless thoughts but if my memory of the cut away model is correct the R35 has a transaxle. Might be tricky to made an adaptor plate for that.


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## fletch.rb30 (Jun 12, 2008)

You can get a crank to take the vh41 to 400ci...........

Ring The Head Shop in palmy.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

> Originally Posted by Abbey M/S
> But the VH41 is an old fashion design , also missing 1 piece of engineering that that a RB loves when fitted , variable cam timing. It is the way forward with any engine in my opinon.


learnt something today then , couple I have seen was in bits, I stand corrected.

Like I am with Sean , remember the RB was designed over 20 years ago , look at the heads on a VQ35 or the VH38 awesome flow straight out of the box. It is called development and the advance in technology and materials.

To be honest Nissan have made some awesome motors over the years FJ motor.s CA18 SR20 RB series motors , the new V6 motors VQ and now the VH38. all can be tuned to big numbers. Just think what the tuning of the VH will be like in 5/6 years times.

There is something bout a RB thou thay do sound awesome.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

tyndago said:


> It does have variable cam timing.
> 
> Infiniti's have had it for a while. The engines - actually the cars are next to nothing here in the US. I have had a number of Q45's though the years. Driving one now as my daily. They get up ok, but they are still a little weak on the low end. Mostly though, just gearing and how they have the trans setup.


I stand corrected.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I see no shame in staying with an RB26 as one's main engine of interest for a lifetime. It's good to be on top of things, go with each new advance, etc. But just like how there are still hardcore guys running small block V8s and four-barrel carbs, and getting BIG power out of them, so will guys with a passion for the RB26 stick with it and keep them running and making ridiculous power - power that simply should not come out of a 2.6 liter engine, which is of course the magic of the Skyline.

The VH41DE interests me though. I was recently stunned to find out how ridiculously cheap 1st generation Infiniti Q45s go for in the States. But the main reason why a Skyline guy with a V8 itch should look at the VH41? In Japan, the engine was offered with ATTESA-ETS. And a GT-R simply isn't a GT-R in my book without the ATTESA.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

There all the daddy's :thumbsup:

Mick


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

Thanks for the input guys.

Sourcing one I knew wouldn't be easy, but even if it was brand new, I was interested to know how it would stack up against the (guess here) $ 30-40K it would take to build a 2.8 or 3.0 engine for the car.

So I figured if it was $ 20K for a new engine or second hand and I spent another $ 10-15K making it fit then I was no worse off............. no idea what one would cost though.

Also thought about weight..... no idea which would be heavier or maybe about the same since one is iron block and the other alloy ? Is that right ?


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I would hazard a guess the the RB will still be a lot heavier. Cast iron vs Alloy block.

Fraser...How about tracking down the engine out of the road going Le Mans car that Nissan built a few years back? LOL That would be awesome!

The big problem I see is the way to connect a gearbox to it....

....Just get RIPS to build you a RB33 with a couple of "Disco Potatoes" I'm sure it would out Torque and out power the standard VR38 engine.

....Having said this, I would love to see someone do the engine swap, I'm still keeping an eye on the VQ41 swap that someone on here is doing.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Ill wait outside pick a part for one to turn up.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Ill wait outside pick a part for one to turn up.


LOL! You might need some good camping supplies!


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Fraser I haven't been in an R35 GTR, though went for a blat in an R33 GTR running a RIPS RB30 and T04Z and the power delivery of that was insane, it didn't feel like what you'd expect "just" 400cc more than a 2.6 would feel like - and the bonus of spinning all the way to 8000rpm instead of the relatively low redline of the VR38 is awesome.

I'd expect a 350Z originated VQ35 would be easier to get hold of and deliver most of the advantages of the VR38 if built right if you wanted to go down the alloy block path. Wouldn't it be nice if folks like Dart/Brodix in the states started making alloy "RB" blocks


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## jmotors (Sep 22, 2008)

Hi guys,

I had been looking in to this as well.
My partner is starting a new project this week: R34 GTX(4door) with Attesa and RB26 N1 swap. 
So we were looking at parts at the scrap auctions and found two front crashed R35 GTRs. Each time the engine was completely broken . .not worth .

It will be difficult to find crashed R35s with intact engiens for a bargain. Even the totaled ones went for much money (2.500.000Yen) . . . :nervous:buy another R34 GTR for that money.

For R35 engines or parts orders at Nissan . .good luck, they will never sell to non R35 owners.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

if you plan to run any kind of serious boost, alloy blocks have to be sleeved. Not the easiest or cheapest machining project.

Someone could surely start cranking out aluminum RB blocks, and that would be pretty cool - but they would need Darton sleeves.


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

I'm sure if you could afford to consider a VR38 engine conversion or an alloy RB block, you can afford to do decent sleeves


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

hence, given a big budget, I think the VR38 would be far more expense and trouble than it'd be worth. RB's are creeping up in size, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 liters, so why not just go with what's proven?

I do plan to eventually move to a 3 liter engine. I want to do one with a T04Z and one with twin 3037S. If a VH41 can fit, the AWD can be made to fit as well, and then one could take the V8 route, put a Lysholm blower on top.

To me, the VR38 just hasn't proven itself yet in terms of extreme modifications.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

give it time I am sure it will. RB26 was born to the public in 1989 yep the old girl is 20 years old. The VH38 motor is not even a year old , already running over 550bhp with out any major internal mods.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

kismetcapitan said:


> if you plan to run any kind of serious boost, alloy blocks have to be sleeved. Not the easiest or cheapest machining project.
> 
> Someone could surely start cranking out aluminum RB blocks, and that would be pretty cool - but they would need Darton sleeves.


I'm not sure that this is true. I have heard of a number of alloy blocks pushing lots of power. VH's with twin turbos are supposed to be good for ~1000bhp with stock bottom ends. I've heard likewise of the Toyota/Lexus units. I'm not aware of the Porsche tuners (9ff) having trouble with big power from alloy blocked 911s. Likewise people tuning Audi V8s etc.

Of course all of this is second hand so take it with a pinch of salt!


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## zell (Nov 23, 2007)

kismetcapitan said:


> I do plan to eventually move to a 3 liter engine. I want to do one with a T04Z and one with twin 3037S. If a VH41 can fit, the AWD can be made to fit as well, and then one could take the V8 route, put a Lysholm blower on top.


Didn't [email protected] made a VH41 to RB26 AWD gearbox adapter plate ? 

Also not sure why so many of you root for the VH41 when you can get a VH45.... virtually the same but bigger displacment engine

About the VH power level... there's a company called Nizpro... and they did this


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Lith said:


> I'd expect a 350Z originated VQ35 would be easier to get hold of and deliver most of the advantages of the VR38 if built right if you wanted to go down the alloy block path. Wouldn't it be nice if folks like Dart/Brodix in the states started making alloy "RB" blocks


I remember reading about a 350Z which had been turbo-charged and had the ATTESA system from an R34 implanted. I forget who the tuner was but the comments went something along the lines of it being a massive amount of work. None the less (if my memory was right) a VQ can be mated to R34 drivetrain but I can't really see the point.

I'd have thought you'd be better off building a spaceframe chassis and chucking the whole lot in that, perhaps an old ZZII unit?


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

zell said:


> Didn't [email protected] made a VH41 to RB26 AWD gearbox adapter plate ? Also not sure why so many of you root for the VH41 when you can get a VH45.... virtually the same but bigger displacment engine


Apparently the 41 is the better bet. I forget exactly but I think that the 41 head is better and the cam chain stronger. In fact you can just put the 45 crank in the 41...

Have a look at the thread in the projects section. Proper project porn!


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## zell (Nov 23, 2007)

Cris said:


> I remember reading about a 350Z which had been turbo-charged and had the ATTESA system from an R34 implanted. I forget who the tuner was but the comments went something along the lines of it being a massive amount of work. None the less (if my memory was right) a VQ can be mated to R34 drivetrain but I can't really see the point.


Top Secret build a VQ35DE AWD R32 IIRC


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## frostmotorsport (Aug 10, 2007)

Dynamix said:


> One of the many crashed ones going around, or pay the 30 grand for a new one..?


so Fraser, this explains why you crashed that 35 the other week! Stel was telling me they had the devils job sourcing parts for it!!!!


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Fraser, in all seriousness, come up here and have a ride/drive in a incredibly streetable 650hp RB30 GTR I have here and I'd be amased if you wern't very surpised at how well it performs.

I'm sure if you tested both a R35 and this at 3000rpm in 4th and both nail it, there'd be nothing in it initially and then the RB30 car would pull away strongly.

Rob


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> I'm sure if you tested both a R35 and this at 3000rpm in 4th and both nail it, there'd be nothing in it initially and then the RB30 car would pull away strongly.


It would depend on how long a piece of string was. 

The VR38 pulls strong at speed, and the shifts are much faster than you can do in a manual.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

tyndago said:


> It would depend on how long a piece of string was.
> 
> The VR38 pulls strong at speed, and the shifts are much faster than you can do in a manual.


...Which is not going to mater much as you wont be able to transplant the mission in there as well.

...Still say a RIPS RB33 with a TO4Z or a couple of "Disco Spuds"


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

tyndago said:


> It would depend on how long a piece of string was.
> 
> The VR38 pulls strong at speed, and the shifts are much faster than you can do in a manual.


I'll rephase that slightly, what I ment was if you worked out the gearing so both cars were pulling the same ratio (so the R35 might be in 5th and the R33 in 4th) and both nailed it at 3000rpm I think the car I have here would get to 7500rpm in the same gear quicker.

Of do it from 3000rpm in top gear and see which car is quicker to 7500rpm

I'm just trying to say is, I think its very possible to get the same if not better performance than a stock or even slightly tuned R35 has with a very reliable, mild mannered RB30 and it would be alot less mucking around too.

Rob


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

An RB 30 is using an RB26 head. Ask anyone thats done anything with a VQ head, and an RB head which head flows more.

Its 20 years newer technology. Variable cam timing. 0.8 liters of displacement. 

An RB will always sound better than a VQ/VR. The bottom end of an iron block engine should be stronger than a aluminum block. The VR uses sprayed on liners, which are a bit iffy around 600 hp. Not enough people have messed with them much.

For an R34 GT-R, I would much rather see an RB30 in it than a VR. And vice versa - putting an RB in a R35 would be silly.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

tyndago said:


> An RB 30 is using an RB26 head. Ask anyone thats done anything with a VQ head, and an RB head which head flows more.
> 
> Its 20 years newer technology. Variable cam timing. 0.8 liters of displacement.
> 
> For an R34 GT-R, I would much rather see an RB30 in it than a VR. And vice versa - putting an RB in a R35 would be silly.


Couldn't agree more, its just Fraser sounds like he wants a real strong torquie road motor for his R34 and I really don't think he knows quite how good a good RB30 can be and the offer is there for him to find out and give his thoughts to everyone.


Lith has felt it first hand and I think its fair to say he was quite shocked to say the least.

There's no question the new technology is superior and if you did the same things to a VR with higher capacity it would make more power/torque than the RB30.


Rob


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

I still have to try out a 3.0 liter. I have a couple of RB30 blocks sitting on a shelf here somewhere. Jeffs 32 is good. 2.8 , small cams , GTRS turbos. Intake cam advanced a bit. It makes a ton of mid range power. 550hp / 470 on 91 . 635hp/540 on C16. The whole idea of that setup was a lot of mid range and not as much peak power numbers.

A local guy here in the US is going to build an OS RB31 with a V-Cam Pro and some 2835's. OS88 trans. I want to get behind the wheel of that thing. It should be decently fun.


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## qikz (Jan 12, 2009)

Dynamix said:


> Sounds like a great idea, would be very involved, you have to factor in all the extra work of egine mounts, custom bell housing, sump for the front diff, ecu, hell of alot of custom pipework ect, will the thing fit? Will the dump pipes clear the transmission tunnel, custom exhausts, cobb ecu to get more power.. Though a great motor the costs of doing it add up insanely quickly. IMHO the only reason you'd do it over the rb is to be ' different ' and want to shock people/be unique ect, because it's going to cost you tripple what a similar powered rb will.
> 
> Cheers, Mat.


True, it would cost a fortune. I am currently grafting a Getrag 6 sp into a 350Z (VQ35DE) and when tested I will be producing a bellhousing that will allow the conversion simply by buying the parts. A concentric thrust bearing is being used as well which lowers peddle pressure on heavier clutches and eliminates fulcrums bearings and slave cylinders in one step.. (come to think of it the bellhousing produced will only suit the FM platform of the Z and G's so a slightly different one would be needed for the Skylines. The bellhousing I will be producing first will be suited to the G35X front driveshaft length, which fits the chassis.
The front diff etc is in existence with the G35X which is only imported into the US as an auto? (I can be corrected here) That sump and diff will bolt straight up to a VQ35DE & HE. The FD is 3.6+ so it should work with the V161 (supra) gearing 1st to 4th and then 5th stock and 6th V160.
If anyone is reading and has the attesa control system and G sensor I am in the market for a complete system. The big headache will be getting the Z ECU and the BNR43 ECU to integrate and perform as factory. So far with R&D = LOTTA cash!!!


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## tyndago (Oct 24, 2002)

So what are you trying to do ? Make an all wheel drive Z with a Getrag ? 

As far as I know too, all the G35x's were automatic. I took some photos of a setup out of a FX before,and it looks similar to the setup in a GTR. 

Getting the ATTESA system , and the Z ECU to talk won't be impossible. The ATTESA system doesn't take that many inputs from the ECU.... but then again, its the speed sensor inputs that might piss it off. Depends on how you want the system to work. We have put an R34 Vspec setup in an R32. 
Nissan Skyline GT-R s in the USA Blog: Turbolag - 2.8 liter , GT-RS Turbos

ATTESA information - Nissan Skyline GT-R s in the USA Blog: Search results for attesa
R34 Service Manual - Nissan Skyline GT-R s in the USA Blog: Nissan R34 GT-R Service Manual in English


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

hasn't the AWD 350Z already been done several times over? I had thought adapting the G35x drivetrain was figured out long ago...could be wrong, but I do remember asking about it a year or two ago.

An AWD 350Z running big turbos would be a tempting alternative to my R32. The great thing about the R32 is how much you can fit in the thing - wife, infant, stroller, baby gear, suitcases, a couple hundred bucks of groceries - I've never filled my car to capacity as of yet.

But the bad thing about the R32 is that it's a two-door sedan that feels as spacious as it actually is. Although I can blow the doors off of a lot of focused sports cars, there's something to be said about the feel of being shoehorned into a tiny cabin and not having a whale of a car around you. Audi ur-quattro coupe, Nissan 300ZX TT, Nissan Sentra SE-R...my Skyline is the largest car I've owned in my life.


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## qikz (Jan 12, 2009)

The awd Z to my knowledge has been done a few times once with a 5 speed R33 box and once as an automatic and once with an RB26? for hill climbing. Of course 2 have used the G35X front drive system but my post was directed to Dynamic including his quote? 
None have been done with the R34 box and no one has aspirations to cast a new bellhousing (worst luck as the R&D costs are quite high) I am not claiming or aiming to be first with anything, just claiming to do it properly. I suggest that you wait if you want to join the Getrag V160 or V161 to the VQ35DE but if you want to rush into it please advise as I am ready to wait whilst some other dickhead does the homework.
Yes I am running a 3.8 JUN stroked, Cosworth Heads, JWT Cams Twin Turbo VQ35DE with around the 600whp on pump fuel and the traction thing induced me to go awd. I have the Z, G35X and (getting if I can find it) the BNR34 ECU and pump system etc. I bought a repairable write off G35x from the US and its been torn apart getting all the clips and brackets etc and I noticed it has an electromagnetic TFR clutch system similar to the new GTR. It has a certain appeal as it doesn't run the hydraulic operational system of the R34, is clean and lighter, but the adaption splines etc would add zillions to the workload. Once I have all the ECU's, I should be able to pick and choose the correct system. I'm not electronic in any way so I'll have to outsource all of that stuff. The battery, Attesa pump, windscreen washer bottle, and any more crap from the front of the vehicle will be located in the spare tyre well as it won't even fit over the rear brakes so its useless (and heavy).
The car is actually brand new with less than 4k test k's so its quite nice. Its my hobby.


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