# Knightracer, Litchfield or SVM for stage 4.25?



## Snooz3 (Sep 25, 2018)

No doubt a subject that***8217;s been covered to death but I would like to hear your opinions experiences and recommendations with these garages. 

I am very shortly going to be going down the route of stage 4.25 on my GTR. The car is currently a stage 1 with just a Y pipe installed and some gearbox software. My experience with litchfield was fantastic on my last service however it is SO far away from me. 

Is there any reason I shouldnt be using any of these garages? 

The main thing I***8217;m trying to avoid is poor workmanship on my car and risking blowing an engine. I am aware the is a risk with any level of tuning but I would rather go with a tuner that I know is going to map the car correctly. 

Thanks guys and again sorry if this has been done to death!


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Other suggestions: Autotorque. 

Whereabouts are you?


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

If you don***8217;t mind paying for quality then Litchfields, they have everything there including One of the best dyno***8217;s out there.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Litchfields hands down


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

Definitely Litchfield. Wouldn***8217;t touch SVM with a barge pole.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Not sure where you are located Snooz3 but if in the South East then Kaizer Motors are good too - think they have links to Litchfield and are based in Kent. Went there earlier this month and they were excellent.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Why would you even consider a copycat body kit company for a serious tune up?


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Couldn't recommend Litchfield enough and some fun on the GTR Cartel FB page where people are recording 100 to 200kph times suggests that the Litchfield 4.25 conversion delivers the goods!


The exception would be if you live next door to another rated tuner.


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## Juice (Jun 21, 2009)

subscribed!

I'm also considering changing my tune from a company on here 
Already have RaceROM 5 Ecutek 

Spoke with litchefield but I really don't understand there pricing structure. No discounts , no deals and no working around customer budget. I want to go with them 1st choice but money wise they want every little bit out of me. No doubt they deliver. I've heRd their 100-200 time is 5.5secs in a 4.25 gtr!!!

Anyone ever used auto torque for tuning? Srd tuning? Now in the research phase also


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## Tekki (Feb 12, 2017)

I've only used Litchfield and their service is second to none.


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## davej51 (Jul 13, 2018)

interesting thread, I will be in a similar situation soon. I have knight racer about 35 min from me and autotorque about 45 but Litchfield are the kings of GTR tuning at 2.5h drive.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

You should really state where you are when asking a question like this.

I am based in Essex, which means my thought process works like this:

Litchfield. Yes, but it's a very long way!
SVM. On past forum behavior, no chance.
Knight Racer. Err, they make bodykit bits from carbon skinned fibreglass don't they? My bonnet didn't fit properly, why would you use them for a tune when there are dedicated tuners?

So I would actually look at someone else based on where I was.
Autotorque, AC Speedtech or Kaizer Motor would be top of my list personally if I was close to them as it would give me less hassle getting the car there and back PLUS if any niggle or needs in future much easier to go back.

Being only an hour away from Kaizer Motor and Sly being one of the best garages I've ever used for customer service I'd go there.


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## Lee-GTR35 (Feb 9, 2018)

Hi Im from Essex.

I have used *Kaiser*, to be honest great service, no real issues, however he did say that he had upgraded my ECUTEK map version to v5.1 but was actually v2.0, so i was a little bit pissed considering i paid for a REMAP. When it went on the dyno at Litchfield it only made 614bhp (meant to be Litchfield stage 4) Ian put the car on the dyno and mapped the car to 640bhp.
To do fluids is fine IMO, i wouldnt use him to tune a vehicle.

Litchfields definately, for me its a 3 hour drive there, and 3 back, but ill be honest, if you are having the 4.25 completed Litchfields all day long, plus you can choose to have a dyno run completed.

In addition the drive home will be great. Mines booked in on Monday 4th going to stage 4.25 with SSIC


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## adz87kc (Jan 8, 2018)

Lee-GTR35 said:


> it only made 614bhp (meant to be Litchfield stage 4) Ian put the car on the dyno and mapped the car to 640bhp.


Out of curiosity, did you compare the max RPM that the max power was made at?

Might be the same RPM from both tuners but I've noticed that a lot of people make max power at 7200ish whereas the stock limiter starts at 6800 I read.
Dynos read different too (conditions on the day and even dyno brand) and the calculated horsepower can be optimistic. WHP is the better indicator.

I might be wrong as there are plenty more people with GTR experience than me but food for thought maybe?


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## Lee-GTR35 (Feb 9, 2018)

adz87kc said:


> Out of curiosity, did you compare the max RPM that the max power was made at?
> 
> Might be the same RPM from both tuners but I've noticed that a lot of people make max power at 7200ish whereas the stock limiter starts at 6800 I read.
> Dynos read different too (conditions on the day and even dyno brand) and the calculated horsepower can be optimistic. WHP is the better indicator.
> ...


Hi.

It was meant to be a power run only. As i just wanted to understand what power the car was making after Kaiser had fitted the stage 4. However when i ran on the litchfield dyno it only made 614bhp on a stage 4, Ian was puzzled aswell, so Ian Litchfield looked at the map, he could only find a v2 ECUTEK. So he dyno tuned the car for me,replacing the map with v5.1

So it was a drive in drive out tune. 614bhp-640bhp.

Kaizer should have remotely tuned the car upgrading to v5.1, either forgot or didnt bother thinking i wouldnt notice (which to be fair i wouldnt of, if i didnt take the car to Litchfield for a dyno run)


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

Dudersvr?? John knows his stuff and always willing to talk you through what you really need and maybe what you don’t and won’t pull your pants down ??


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

Juice said:


> Spoke with litchefield but I really don't understand there pricing structure. No discounts , no deals and no working around customer budget.


With due respect, what are you expecting?

Pricing is simple.

Parts
+
Ecutek licenses where needed
+
Maps
+
Labor
+ 
Dynotime if requested.


I dont understand what you expect in terms of discounts, deals or customer budget? The bits that go into making the various stages are pretty standard, there is not a lot of wiggle room there.


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## AnEvoGuy (Aug 17, 2011)

Juice said:


> subscribed!
> 
> I'm also considering changing my tune from a company on here
> Already have RaceROM 5 Ecutek
> ...


Litchfield are super busy, why would they give a discount?


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

Juice said:


> Spoke with litchefield but I really don't understand there pricing structure. No discounts , no deals and no working around customer budget. I want to go with them 1st choice but money wise they want every little bit out of me. No doubt they deliver. I've heRd their 100-200 time is 5.5secs in a 4.25 gtr!!!


Discounts should really come following loyalty / repeat use. Why discount to a first time person who may never return again as they were just after the cheapest deal they could find?

Too many companies are after trying to get new people in the door. What it should be about is treating existing customers well & repeat business; especially in the tuning / modifying game. That's what tends to happen (on here at least) so you are probably expecting a little too much from your first visit as people go to Litchfield, ACS, AutoTorque etc. due to recommendations and experience (I, personally, wouldn't touch the other two suggested the the thread title with a 100 mile long barge pole!), so people who offer repeat business are those who may get some subtle favouritism over time.

As for working around customer budget, what do you mean? A stage 4.25 is pretty consistent with regard to parts & mapping so the cost will be pretty similar within the same company (though your choice of exhaust, for example, may affect it a little). I don't fully understand how Litchfield could be expected to do a 4.25 conversion at a reduced price given the general consistency of parts & mapping at this level. If you're talking about cheaper parts, they're unlikely to accept this as they use parts that they feel have the quality control standards that they are happy with (any reputable company will behave in the same fashion). They don't want to modify a car with cheap parts only for them to fail and the customer to post up on a forum about how awful said tuner is ...



Juice said:


> Anyone ever used auto torque for tuning? Srd tuning? Now in the research phase also


You won't go wrong with AutoTorque or any of the others I have listed above. dudesvr & Kaizer Motors have a very good reputation as well ...


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## Richy1104 (Jan 11, 2018)

herman said:


> Dudersvr?? John knows his stuff and always willing to talk you through what you really need and maybe what you don’t and won’t pull your pants down ??


John and Dimitri get my vote too, both great and very helpful guys. They are based in Crawley.

SRD have been very good with me too.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Lee-GTR35 said:


> Hi.
> 
> It was meant to be a power run only. As i just wanted to understand what power the car was making after Kaiser had fitted the stage 4. However when i ran on the litchfield dyno it only made 614bhp on a stage 4, Ian was puzzled aswell, so Ian Litchfield looked at the map, he could only find a v2 ECUTEK. So he dyno tuned the car for me,replacing the map with v5.1
> 
> ...


Did you talk to Kaizer about it out of interest?


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## Juice (Jun 21, 2009)

Kindai and evolution

Think I have been misunderstood

I am already stage 4.25
Don’t need any parts on the cheap as have them already
Also already have the Ecutek licenses and on v5.2 so again have those big costs covered 

All I’m after A decent price on a flash on of version 7 with a map tweak and nismo gbox software which shouldn’t cost the earth is what I meant . 

Hopefully that makes sense

Also by all means don’t take it as if I’m knocking the company! Not trying to start a war here
, there great at what they do but I guess after talking to them they appeared to have a take it or leave it attitude which wasn’t really enticing or attracting me in. Guess customer service is different in different departments. Yes loyalty pays however first impressions also count. Maybe the day of cash deals are over...


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## Juice (Jun 21, 2009)

Richy1104 said:


> John and Dimitri get my vote too, both great and very helpful guys. They are based in Crawley.
> 
> SRD have been very good with me too.


Have been in contact... very helpful to take an hour out to talk on the blower explaining a lot of the in’s and out’s to a newb


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## Lee-GTR35 (Feb 9, 2018)

tonigmr2 said:


> Did you talk to Kaizer about it out of interest?


To be fair i didnt. 

I went from Stage 1 to Stage 4, I had 2 major services plus Brakes replaced, ABS pump all fitted at Kaizer, all with no issues.

I went to Litchfield because i wanted a power run completed, just to see if everything was spot on, and the HP was close to what it should be making for a Litchfield stage 4. 

When Ian completed the 1st run, he came out and questioned me with regards to when the REMAP was completed. I told him when, and he confirmed that was the case, however it had not been upgraded to the newer map version.

So i was a little bit pissed that i had spent, close to 6.5k with services upgrades etc, but something as simple as the mapping had either been overlooked, or just not completed. Speaking to him at the time, would probably not have been a good idea. TBH i felt like i had been mugged off, i asked for the newer ECUTEK version to be added when upgrading.

When you pay good money, you expect things you ask for to be completed, or a reasonable explanation as to why it was not completed etc.

I would find it hard to go back to Kaiser now. Its a long drive to Litchfield, but at least i know the work will be done properly, any issues will be addressed until im proven wrong LOL

Best regards.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Fair enough just wondered what they’d have to say.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

Don't Kaizer use Litchfield maps which are then tweeked at Litcho following some road data logs gathered by KM?


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I would***8217;nt like to comment on other people***8217;s work, but from what I have seen on the times I have visited Litchfields is professionalism and a fully equipped workshop which other specialists must envy.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Evo9lution said:


> Don't Kaizer use Litchfield maps which are then tweeked at Litcho following some road data logs gathered by KM?


That's my understanding too - basic map goes on and then live road data logs are then used to fine tune the map (tailored to what specific stage upgrade parts have been fitted and actual car performance/behaviour).


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

I was there when Lee found out about his not-correctly done map.

Probably better he didnt ring Kaizer as he was fuming, and rightly so.

Credit to Iain though for making him whole.


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## rfo5 (Nov 10, 2011)

Don't Kaizer use Litchfield maps which are then tweeked at Litcho following some road data logs gathered by KM?

I have always found very helpful and can't recommend him highly enough.
Sly is an agent for Litchfields and uses their maps for stages 1 to 5, tweaked by Litchfields and loaded.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

kindai said:


> I was there when Lee found out about his not-correctly done map.
> 
> Probably better he didnt ring Kaizer as he was fuming, and rightly so.
> 
> Credit to Iain though for making him whole.


I wonder what Lee's and your views are based on post #s 26, 28 & 30?

Given this, it may be worthwhile for Lee to contact Sly and have the discussion. I am certain that Sly would be mortified to know what went on and if he had been given the chance to rectify it at the time I am sure that he would have ...


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

rfo5 said:


> Sly is an agent for Litchfields and uses their maps for stages 1 to 5, tweaked by Litchfields and loaded.



I am 99% sure while Sly might use Litchfield for the maps, he isnt an "agent" or similar. Litchfield is Litchfield, doubt Iain would have any associations going on where he cant personally oversee the quality control.


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## Lee-GTR35 (Feb 9, 2018)

Evo9lution said:


> I wonder what Lee's and your views are based on post #s 26, 28 & 30?
> 
> Given this, it may be worthwhile for Lee to contact Sly and have the discussion. I am certain that Sly would be mortified to know what went on and if he had been given the chance to rectify it at the time I am sure that he would have ...


Thing is i specifically asked Kaizer Motors to upgrade me from version 2 to version 5.1 March 2018 when the work was carried out at Kaizer. I had the dyno End of July 2018.

They are supposed to be Litchfield maps, remotely downloaded then installed via ECUTEK.

Even if they are remotely tuned to the specific car. What i asked for *WAS NOT* given. Does not matter how many road tunes are completed, i would of not been aware if i had not had a power dyno run. 

I just wonder how many other clients have potentially received the same action with regards to their maps.

Think they are on version 5.1/5.2,6,7 but are actually on something less.

When i questioned does this happen alot, the answer was unfortunately i was not the first.

Jon (Kindai) was kindly on hand to ensure i saw the lighter side of things when Ian Litchfield personally mapped my car, which i am very grateful for.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Would in not be best to talk directly to sly, he may have genuinely overlooked what you asked of him and willing to correct his mistake?

Good luck and hope you get things resolved amiccabilly.


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## KaizerMotor (Jan 14, 2010)

Lee-GTR35 said:


> Hi.
> 
> It was meant to be a power run only. As i just wanted to understand what power the car was making after Kaiser had fitted the stage 4. However when i ran on the litchfield dyno it only made 614bhp on a stage 4, Ian was puzzled aswell, so Ian Litchfield looked at the map, he could only find a v2 ECUTEK. So he dyno tuned the car for me,replacing the map with v5.1
> 
> ...


Dear Lee.
I usually stay away from commenting on here and I don't mind feedback from our customers good or bad.
However this time I feel I need to defend myself and my company's reputation.

So let me point out a few things:

•	First of all our Stage maps comes from Litchfield imports as they are the only one I would trust to map a GTR. We are fitting parts supplied by them then carry out road mapping sessions to collect data logs which is sent back to Iain to be checked and adjusted. The car isn't released untill he (or his colleges) are 100% satisfied with the logs (therefore the performance of the car). 
•	After talking to Iain today I am aware he told you the car made the power of a Stage 2 car (this is what you thought was version 2, but it was stage 2). He couldn't see why and that is he was puzzled. (The V2 is a very old version of Ecutek and you would have the no 4 but with only 2 map switchable indicated by the EML light only. As you had 4 maps available this wasn't the case.)
•	I found it very unfair for you to comment on this without ever giving me the chance to defend myself or even to find out if we did anything wrong. After we looked after you and your car with honesty and have done everything correctly.
•	We had done a lots of these Stage upgrades in the past working closely with Iain and his team and you always get an odd tune where something goes wrong, but we always find the solution and make sure you get what you had paid for. 
•	That is how we earned the trust from our customers.
• I'm really sorry if you thought this wasn't the case with your car, however I can assure you it wasn't our fault.


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## KaizerMotor (Jan 14, 2010)

kindai said:


> I am 99% sure while Sly might use Litchfield for the maps, he isnt an "agent" or similar. Litchfield is Litchfield, doubt Iain would have any associations going on where he cant personally oversee the quality control.


Kindai. You can be 100% sure  and although we are NOT part of Litchfield Imports we are closely working with them and only sell their products and maps (with price matching guaranty too) when it comes to GTR tuning. 
This way our customers get the same performance packages and service as they would if they drive up to Iain.


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

KaizerMotor said:


> Kindai. You can be 100% sure  and although we are NOT part of Litchfield Imports we are closely working with them and only sell their products and maps (with price matching guaranty too) when it comes to GTR tuning.
> This way our customers get the same performance packages and service as they would if they drive up to Iain.



Thought as much, thanks for clarifying. 

As I was there when the issues with Lees car were discovered, even though its down to you and Lee to work out if there anything to "right" the situation, I think its a bit unfair to say "I can assure you it wasn't our fault." when it would of never been discovered unless he had been for a power run, as most customers are reliant on their tuner and wouldnt know otherwise. 

Maybe you should bump him upto v7 foc 

Just my 2p.


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## Lee-GTR35 (Feb 9, 2018)

KaizerMotor said:


> Dear Lee.
> I usually stay away from commenting on here and I don't mind feedback from our customers good or bad.
> However this time I feel I need to defend myself and my company's reputation.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to explain Sly.

Like i said in my first post on this subject "*I have used Kaiser, to be honest great service, no real issues*" and i still stand by that fact.

What ever the issue was, it has been rectified by Litchfield. 

I understand these things happen when tuning cars. I was surprised and a bit pissed off that the software of the tune had not really been completed correctly. And yes you have looked after my car professionally. Thank you 

I had a dyno power run of 614bhp for a quoted 640bhp with the stage 4 package. Thats not just 5 or 6bhp off the minimum quoted figure, but 26bhp. Thats fairly noticeable when on the road. I was concerned that something else may have been wrong with the car.

The issue was rectified by Litchfield, who quite rightly probably sent you datalogs to upgrade my ECU, im not the professional, but a paying customer, so please excuse my misunderstanding of the technical parts of the conversion, and installing of the software.

I didnt contact you because like i said above the issue was rectified, not much i could of done really apart from phone up and moan.

A forum is a place to discuss a situation or meeting in which people can talk about a problem or matter especially of public interest:issues that have happened. I was merely giving a problem that i had encountered.

My apologies if i caused offence, i was answering questions that other users asked, like i said in my opening sentence "*I have used Kaiser, to be honest great service, no real issues*"

I think a line in the sand can be drawn now. :thumbsup:


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

Lee-GTR35 said:


> ... I had a dyno power run of 614bhp for a quoted 640bhp with the stage 4 package. Thats not just 5 or 6bhp off the minimum quoted figure, *but 26bhp. Thats fairly noticeable when on the road.* ...


Not it's not! It's virtually undetectable! That's a 4% reduction in total power output. You could experience that on a very warm day or at altitude ...

I understand that you may not be happy with what happened but let's not sensationalise it!


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Giving a customer a power figure and expectations of that particular figure can get very messy. Ambient temps can greatly effect power as can serious heat soak. Best of luck.


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## KaizerMotor (Jan 14, 2010)

kindai said:


> I think its a bit unfair to say "I can assure you it wasn't our fault." when it would of never been discovered unless he had been for a power run, as most customers are reliant on their tuner and wouldnt know otherwise.
> 
> Maybe you should bump him upto v7 foc
> 
> Just my 2p.


I'm sorry, but have to disagree with you on this. How could it be my fault? I trust Litchfield to do the mapping, once they say they are 100% happy with the logs the car is producing the power it should.

With all our tunes the actual tuner is Iain Litchfield (or his team) we are only acting as a middle man. If anything is wrong with the tune (the ROM file loaded to the ECU) is down to them and of course if it isn't performing well and it comes to our attention (like it happened before when one of our customer took the car to a nearby rolling road) we notify Litchfield who will sort the problem out remotely via us and we make sure the customer is happy. 
However on this occasion we were blamed for a fault with a tune done by Litchfield when they had rectified the problem. 

It would only be my fault if Lee would complain to us and I would show no interest and forward him to Litchfield to get them to deal with the issues.


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## KaizerMotor (Jan 14, 2010)

Lee-GTR35 said:


> Thank you for taking the time to explain Sly.
> 
> Like i said in my first post on this subject "*I have used Kaiser, to be honest great service, no real issues*" and i still stand by that fact.
> 
> ...


 
We stand by our customer service and if there is a problem I would ask anyone to contact me first so it can be rectified.
Subject closed.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Again, why I prefer to go locally.


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

KaizerMotor said:


> I'm sorry, but have to disagree with you on this. How could it be my fault? I trust Litchfield to do the mapping, once they say they are 100% happy with the logs the car is producing the power it should.
> 
> With all our tunes the actual tuner is Iain Litchfield (or his team) we are only acting as a middle man. If anything is wrong with the tune (the ROM file loaded to the ECU) is down to them and of course if it isn't performing well and it comes to our attention (like it happened before when one of our customer took the car to a nearby rolling road) we notify Litchfield who will sort the problem out remotely via us and we make sure the customer is happy.
> However on this occasion we were blamed for a fault with a tune done by Litchfield when they had rectified the problem.
> ...



Sorry dude, I dont buy it.

As we know with remote mapping, you load a base map, take some logs, send it to be reviewed and get back an updated map.

This means that:

1) The base map was loaded and the logs were never done
2) The logs were done and Litchfields never sent back an updated map
3) Litchfields sent back the wrong map
4) The updated map was never loaded


1-2-4 all fall on your shoulders to ensure its done before the car walks out the door, and 3, while possible I think would be unlikely because shouldnt you be test driving the car after the second map, sending back some logs for a final review and sign off? I would find it highly suspicious of sending a car out the door full beans without having it checked for issues after a new map is applied.

Again, I have no skin in this game between you and Lee other than being there when the issue was discovered, and yes, mistakes happen, but this just seems like you're trying to shift the blame elsewhere when ultimately the responsibility to ensure the job is done right falls to you as the customer is paying you for the privilege.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

To complain about a business without complaining to the business is the worst part of social media. It***8217;s clear if you***8217;d spoke. To Sly at the time he***8217;d have made sure everything was resolved to your satisfaction

A bit like buying a pepperoni pizza. Being delivered a cheese feast. Saying nothing, Eating it and then leaving a 1 star review on trustpilot. 

If you***8217;d phoned them you have two pizzas. Lol


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

But when you're hungry and it's collection only.....


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

Mookistar said:


> To complain about a business without complaining to the business is the worst part of social media. It’s clear if you’d spoke. To Sly at the time he’d have made sure everything was resolved to your satisfaction
> 
> A bit like buying a pepperoni pizza. Being delivered a cheese feast. Saying nothing, Eating it and then leaving a 1 star review on trustpilot.
> 
> If you’d phoned them you have two pizzas. Lol



So while at Litchfields where the problem was discovered, ringing sly, to have him tell Litchfields to fix the problem?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

kindai said:


> So while at Litchfields where the problem was discovered, ringing sly, to have him tell Litchfields to fix the problem?


And he’d jave apologised profusely and spoken to Iain and ensured you were happy. Simples.


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

Mookistar said:


> And he’d jave apologised profusely and spoken to Iain and ensured you were happy. Simples.



Think the customer would have been happy if the job had been done correctly the first time and not having the person he paid pass the buck to someone else.

Maybe my standards are too high.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Shit happens, mistakes get made, stuff goes wrong. If you don***8217;t give someone an opportunity to deal with the situation then you can***8217;t complain they haven***8217;t done anything to resolve the situation.


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## snuffy (Mar 26, 2014)

Mookistar said:


> A bit like buying a pepperoni pizza. Being delivered a cheese feast. Saying nothing, Eating it and then leaving a 1 star review on trustpilot.
> 
> If you***8217;d phoned them you have two pizzas. Lol


You've clearly never complained to Pizza Hut before !!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

kindai said:


> Think the customer would have been happy if the job had been done correctly the first time and not having the person he paid pass the buck to someone else.
> 
> Maybe my standards are too high.


That’s not the point though. Unless you tell Sly you’re unhappy then how can he put things right? If he had then passed the buck then You can be pissed but if this thread is the first he’s heard of it surely you can see how unfair that is to him regardless of mistakes made.


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

Simonh said:


> Shit happens, mistakes get made, stuff goes wrong. If you don’t give someone an opportunity to deal with the situation then you can’t complain they haven’t done anything to resolve the situation.



Sure you can.

I'll be blunt, I frankly dont believe Slys explanation, and the fact he straight up blamed another company is unacceptable. In my line of work I likewise have to subcontract, but you can be sure I check everything is done to standard before I hand it to the customer first. 

I think its much more likely that he stuck the stage2 map on, and either forgot or thought its good enough to send it out like that. 

Either way Litchfields has put Lee whole again, but tbh if I was Sly id be offering to pay for Lees dyno time / offering a free upgrade to ecutek v7 by way of an apology, not sitting there finger pointing at someone else, as far as I'm concerned the buck stops with whoever I pay my money to, they are responsible for the workmanship and the quality control, regardless of whos parts or maps they are reselling.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Mookistar said:


> That***8217;s not the point though. Unless you tell Sly you***8217;re unhappy then how can he put things right? If he had then passed the buck then You can be pissed but if this thread is the first he***8217;s heard of it surely you can see how unfair that is to him regardless of mistakes made.


Every business makes mistakes.
And I mean every one.
Even the tuners on here that appear to have a halo.

But what separates the good from the bad is how they deal with issues.
If they know about them.


Also interesting the person trying to call the tuner to task and get into a debate about it is a third party that isn't even the customer or tuner.
People don't have time to explain themselves or their actions to everyone online behind a keyboard that wants to take a pot shot so I wouldn't always expect a response.



Simonh said:


> Shit happens, mistakes get made, stuff goes wrong. If you don***8217;t give someone an opportunity to deal with the situation then you can***8217;t complain they haven***8217;t done anything to resolve the situation.


Exactly this.


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

kindai said:


> Think the customer would have been happy if the job had been done correctly the first time and not having the person he paid pass the buck to someone else.
> 
> Maybe my standards are too high.


Why’d you buy a Nissan GT-R if you want to be happy about customer service then?

Ever tried using a Nissan dealership - for anything?


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

kindai said:


> Sure you can.
> 
> I'll be blunt, I frankly dont believe Slys explanation, and the fact he straight up blamed another company is unacceptable. In my line of work I likewise have to subcontract, but you can be sure I check everything is done to standard before I hand it to the customer first.
> 
> ...


You are so far wrong here it is frankly silly.

In order for you to be right on this Kaizer would have to be either grossly negligent or intentionally dishonest. And as far as I am aware that is a long way from the reputation that they have.

Every business makes mistakes, in the grand scheme of things this wasn't a big one, just missing 30 or so horsepower out of a 600+ horsepower car. Given that the owner didn't even realise he was missing it until he was told he can't have been that unhappy with the performance or I assume he would have contacted Sly to express that before the dyno day...

As I read it Sly has given an explanation of what he thought happened and how it is possible for the mistake to occur, it does not read to me like he was shifting the blame but outlining circumstance.

What we don't know *in this situation* is what Sly would have done had the owner contacted him either before the dyno day, or at the point he was told there was an issue because he was never given that chance and I assume that was down to you bleating into the owners ear.

So for those of us without your high standards (ie those of us living in the real world) understanding that stuff goes wrong and it is how people deal with it that matters is perhaps a better way to move through life.

and just to play devils advocate here, did you take a moment to stop and wonder why Litchfield were so keen to rectify the issue? perhaps they realised the mistake was just as much on their shoulders as Slys...


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## kindai (Feb 8, 2016)

Simonh said:


> So for those of us without your high standards (ie those of us living in the real world) understanding that stuff goes wrong and it is how people deal with it that matters is perhaps a better way to move through life.


The irony given the waffle you posted before it :chuckle::chuckle::chuckle:




Simonh said:


> and just to play devils advocate here, did you take a moment to stop and wonder why Litchfield were so keen to rectify the issue? perhaps they realised the mistake was just as much on their shoulders as Slys...


See your own quote above. Litchfields will have been paid for their maps on the car, which, strangely enough the way they dealt with it was to make sure the car went out the door the way it should of left slys :chuckle::chuckle:


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Just an observation but as we all know all dynos read differently and im being asked more and more what the performance of our 4.25 etc cars are in respect of 100-200 kmh, a friend with a Porsche tuning firm sold all his conversions this way but measured 0-160 mph, all his cars were finished and mapped at Bruntingthorpe so he could guarantee the performance. Even though we have a car at number 3 on the draggy list at 5.9 secs I only say our 4.25 cars run 6.1/2 for DBA and 6.3/4 for CBA, I quote the hp figures we see on SRD dyno only as a guide. We have just had the 5.9 car back for mods and tweaking and it made VERY good figure on the dyno, customer does not care he wants a 100-200 time which he will get later today. Even when logging the ecutek 100-200 is very similar to the GPS draggy time so a slow say 7 sec time would indicate a problem straight away. Interestingly a stage 2 DBA we did y-pipe and air intakes ran 6.3 which is ahead of a few 4.25 cars. Ian and Ben Linney are neck and neck at 5.50 and 5.53 (at least for another hour or so:double-finger

So what im saying is whoever inputs map can see the real world performance which tells 100% the integrity of the map and resulting power.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

So yeah this thread has got a bit off course. I think the tuner has given his explanation and the customer has had his say - pretty much if he'd have gone back to Sly then maybe this could have been sorted? 

If everybody keeps piling in we will end up with a locking situation so let's keep it as a good discussion folks.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

kindai said:


> Sure you can.
> 
> I'll be blunt, I frankly dont believe Slys explanation, and the fact he straight up blamed another company is unacceptable. In my line of work I likewise have to subcontract, but you can be sure I check everything is done to standard before I hand it to the customer first.
> 
> ...


The car would not run with a stage 2 map on stage 4.25 hardware


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

terry lloyd said:


> The car would not run with a stage 2 map on stage 4.25 hardware


Dont think anyone said it was a stage 2 map just it ran stage 2 power.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Its in the quote I added to my post 

John these 100-200kph times Ben and Litchfield are getting are they their run of the mill stage 4.25 tunes or special kill maps ? maybe on built engines ?


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

possibly the latter to turn the wick right up on torque


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

So not what they sell to the public as a stage 4.25 - not much difference to interesting dyno figures then


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

we may never know Terry... 

Back to the OP....
I think going to a 'tuner' would be a better decision than going to a 'modifier' for engine and performance upgrades...
Just my 2p


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

I would say 100% all engines are stock, Litchfield have the fastest 4.5 car as well at 4.7 on stock engine and trans so no need to worry on a 4.25, however are they a 4.25 as sold to the public?in our case no, lets just say they are probably very 'fettled' to go this fast, lots of time spent on the map and a few little tricks, of course they 'could' have hybrid turbos etc but that would be merely fooling yourself, our 5.9 was 100% normal 4.25, Ian has another thats like 5.93 so its very close. Ours has been back on the dyno and produced some very good power so literally waiting for traffic to die later and we may draggy it.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Mookistar said:


> To complain about a business without complaining to the business is the worst part of social media. It’s clear if you’d spoke. To Sly at the time he’d have made sure everything was resolved to your satisfaction
> 
> A bit like buying a pepperoni pizza. Being delivered a cheese feast. Saying nothing, Eating it and then leaving a 1 star review on trustpilot.
> 
> If you’d phoned them you have two pizzas. Lol


Well said.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Might be best to lock the thread now all things are sorted


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

terry lloyd said:


> Its in the quote I added to my post
> 
> John these 100-200kph times Ben and Litchfield are getting are they their run of the mill stage 4.25 tunes or special kill maps ? maybe on built engines ?





L6DJX said:


> possibly the latter to turn the wick right up on torque





terry lloyd said:


> So not what they sell to the public as a stage 4.25 - not much difference to interesting dyno figures then





dudersvr said:


> I would say 100% all engines are stock, Litchfield have the fastest 4.5 car as well at 4.7 on stock engine and trans so no need to worry on a 4.25, however are they a 4.25 as sold to the public?in our case no, lets just say they are probably very 'fettled' to go this fast, lots of time spent on the map and a few little tricks, of course they 'could' have hybrid turbos etc but that would be merely fooling yourself, our 5.9 was 100% normal 4.25, Ian has another thats like 5.93 so its very close. Ours has been back on the dyno and produced some very good power so literally waiting for traffic to die later and we may draggy it.



I have some information on this. The Litchfield cars are pretty much normal tunes for sure. The 4.25 cars recorded solid times before any map revisions were made. Iain Litchfield said that when he has done revisions for this, he hasn't done a 'glory run' tune, just tweaked the speed of the gear change and ironed out any boost drops as it comes back on boost. 


I can't comment on the other tuners. They seem to have really got into the dragy thing and lots have tuned specifically for that. I would say they are running more boost and power where the 'usual' 4.25 wouldn't. I don't know if the cars are released with the tune that recorded the time.

The Stage 5 Litchfield car (stock box and engine running OEM manifold EFR 6758) is running more power than the normal stage 5. But it was running more power before the word Dragy even became a thing in the GTR world. I think the usual is 750bhp and the car was running c. 800bhp. 

The owner ran something like a 4.9 second 100 - 200kph time as was. He has since moved to Ecutek V7 and asked for a revision to better his time and Litchfields have done the same as they did to the 4.25s. Quickened the gear changes and smoothed boost a little more (although to be fair looking at the logs of it from a recent VMAX event showed the boost and fuelling to be really stable and on point). 


This car is still on a MAF tune which means he isn't trying to run crazy boost. I think 1.3bar perhaps which isn't unusual and in no way a glory run car. 

I think they just perform very well and are clearly being driven to get the most out of it.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

as for the OP, I would tend to gravitate towards Litchfield. Good quality but also dissapointingly local (so too easy to get more mods!!!). If I lived near AC speedtech, SVM, SRD or Autotorque then I wouldn't particularly hesitate going there for a 4.25 conversion. Ben Linney does a lot of mapping for a number of tuners and he has a lot of cars in circulation. Andy Clark of AC (and Alan) know their stuff and you can see that from what they post. SRD and Autotorque have some good things in the making


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

gtr mart said:


> I have some information on this. The Litchfield cars are pretty much normal tunes for sure. The 4.25 cars recorded solid times before any map revisions were made. Iain Litchfield said that when he has done revisions for this, he hasn't done a 'glory run' tune, just tweaked the speed of the gear change and ironed out any boost drops as it comes back on boost.
> 
> 
> I can't comment on the other tuners. They seem to have really got into the dragy thing and lots have tuned specifically for that. I would say they are running more boost and power where the 'usual' 4.25 wouldn't. I don't know if the cars are released with the tune that recorded the time.
> ...


Trust me Mart the cars arent what you get on a stock 4.25, GTR world is small so the little tweaks come out, if 5 sec runs in 4.25 cars were the norm there would be loads in the 5 sec bracket Linney has one out of many many 4.25, Litchfield have 2 out of even more and we have 1 out of maybe 15 total. so by that statement every 4.25 is now going to run 5.5 sec 100-200??
Come on! A lot of people already think these are ringers as it is, for a start one is a CBA car so already at a disadvantage as it has smaller turbo intakes to a DBA and that runs 5.53.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Would be nice to see a data log on these maps


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

terry lloyd said:


> Would be nice to see a data log on these maps


Of the run or ecu?


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

The non Litchfield cars we're tuned and set times in direct response to the GTR Cartel draggy leaderboard. So they could quite possibly have 'special' tunes.


The LM cars set good times right at the beginning when the board was being formed and there was little to identify what good looked like.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

gtr mart said:


> The non Litchfield cars we're tuned and set times in direct response to the GTR Cartel draggy leaderboard. So they could quite possibly have 'special' tunes.
> 
> 
> The LM cars set good times right at the beginning when the board was being formed and there was little to identify what good looked like.


Part of a data log on ecutek is a 100-200 if you set it, if what you say is true we will see a very large amount of Litchfield cars running in the 5's then:smokin:


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## L6DJX (Sep 15, 2017)

dudersvr said:


> Part of a data log on ecutek is a 100-200 if you set it, if what you say is true we will see a very large amount of Litchfield cars running in the 5's then:smokin:


When i get mine back i will run an ecutek 100-200 john


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

A test against a dragy suggested the Ecutek timer function was fairly accurate. However it doesn't allow for slope and is an averaged measure of front and rear wheel speed, rather than GPS / distance travelled. As wheel spin shouldn't be an issue at that speed it doesn't matter. I ran a 4.47 second time using a Dragy. The car is in for some tweaks and will see what it can do when it comes back.

I measured a 4.6 second on Ecutek and 




dudersvr said:


> Part of a data log on ecutek is a 100-200 if you set it, if what you say is true we will see a very large amount of Litchfield cars running in the 5's then:smokin:



Yes, providing the drivers know what they are doing and work at it. I would also say that the cars themselves seem to vary in how they perform (worn components, alignment differences and I suspect soft actuators play a big part too)





L6DJX said:


> When i get mine back i will run an ecutek 100-200 john


Your target to be beat should be 5 seconds flat Lewis. You have a forged engine so fully unleashed turbos, plus a decent weight reduction.

try going from about 40MPH in 3rd and see how you get on. Hopefully with a raised rev limit you should be able to hit it in 4th meaning only one gear change.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Like I said in the dry at sensible temps there is not too much driver input for 100-200 in low power cars like the 4.25's so no doubt if what you say is true there will be a lot more than 2 cars running 5's , like I said before, I consider our 'off the shelf' 4.25 to go DBA 6.1 to 6.2 not 5's, if they do its a bonus

Heres our latest 4.25


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

terry lloyd said:


> Would be nice to see a data log on these maps


I have some of the 5.9 tune


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Im interested to see what my new toy Touareg V10 TDI can do, should be 900nm when its mapped! 4.25 eater anyone?:double-finger:


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

There quick enough std, drove one about 8yrs ago and was impressed.***55357;***56397;


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Quick update, .03 to go and we are number 1 :double-finger:


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## AnEvoGuy (Aug 17, 2011)

dudersvr said:


> Quick update, .03 to go and we are number 1 :double-finger:
> 
> View attachment 248913


This doesn’t exactly sound like a tune that someone could buy if you are squeezing every bit out of it. Not exactly fair to compare to a tuner customer car.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

AnEvoGuy said:


> This doesn’t exactly sound like a tune that someone could buy if you are squeezing every bit out of it. Not exactly fair to compare to a tuner customer car.


You can buy the tune for sure but IMO its not value for money as for a little more it could have hybrids.
This is also why ive spent the last 2 pages saying the same thing as apparently at 5.9 the now fastest Litchfield car was on a v7 with no revisions, not sure how many more 5.53 its run but ours has done 6 runs back to back of varying 5.5 times BUT like ive been saying our 4.25 cars DO NOT run 5 sec 100-200 they average around 6.1-6.2 DBA and 6.4-6.7 CBA. In fact we have a CBA car in for timing chains and VVTI's that has been DBA converted and the same tweeks applied so will be interesting to see the times from that.

Just to add the car went 5.46 but decline was 0.01% to steep to be validated and it was still losing loads of time through wheelspin so I expect a 5.3 before we take the turbos off and it goes 4.5.:squintdan


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Most reputable tuners can fit the parts, or service but Litchfield for the tune ***128077;


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