# Rear Stepping Out?



## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Morning all, got sa very quick question that the User Manual isn't answering & is purely me seeking a little guidance on driving style.

I understand the GT-R is very much a RWD biased car, but could someone explain in laymans terms when & where the fronts are engaged & how out of shape can the back get safely?

Had a bit of a tank slapper yesterday morning on a damp road coming off a roundabout when the boost came on in 2nd gear. Was far from pushing on as still running in, but it would be good to know if i'd not reacted quickly & gathered her up, that the AWD or Traction wizardry would have stepped in??

Coming from a B7 RS4, it's traction was very predictable in all conditions, prior to that the E60 M5 i had was quite the opposite & was a real handful in all but perfect road conditions.

Given we've got some not so good weather coming in the next few days, i want to avoid putting my car ar$e end into someones garden before i've even got to the 1st Opt Service. Is the GT-R's grip & traction in damp Autumn/Winter conditions excellent, very good, good, fair or check my life insurance policy?


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

I had exactly the same thing happen when I first had mine but I was intentionally giving it some, in 2nd and off a roundabout in the wet. I think it all depends on how you are straightening up when putting the power down. I'd done it before and carried on with the power and it corrected but this particular time it didn't seem like it would and I backed off. Some on here will tell you to keep the power on but I think you need big gonads to do it!

In summary, that's why mine only comes out on dry days


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

also quite import are camber changes as you exit the roundabout and any unloading

had a 'no esp intervention' brown trousers exit from a r'about in milton keynes


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Best advice I have been given was from Andy Middlehurst (of Middlehurst HPC and ex BTCC racer)..

The 4WD only works at steering angles of less than (IIRC) 10-15 degrees so the trick is to bring the throttle in progressively as you unwind the wheel. 

Another good idea is to do the Drift course from CATD and then you can really scare yourself!


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Cheers, that's good advice & i had heard about this AWD only taking affect at lowish steering angles.

Driving styles between the M5 & RS4/6 were so different, i'm just keen to find the balance & no doubt will in time. The M5 was plain dangerous in non dry conditions, but made good progress in the dry, the RS4 could be driven close to 90% in pretty much any conditions (excluding snow/ice of course).

charles charlie, where in the NW are you. Mine came from MH & likewise had some time discussing the merits of the GT-R with Andy & his son prior to ordering.

So enjoying the education of my new motor, but i don't want to be too silly as the weather is turning more Englishy


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

w8pmc said:


> charles charlie, where in the NW are you. Mine came from MH & likewise had some time discussing the merits of the GT-R with Andy & his son prior to ordering.


I'm in Formby, near Southport.

If you fancy a meet up with some other GTR owners, some of us will be at Anglesey track on Sat 30th October.

Might be a nice excuse for a drive, followed by a lap in one of our GTRs to see the difference a COBB makes.... :chuckle:


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

The Dunlops and Bridgestones are quite poor in the wet. The Dunlops are good in the snow, not tried the Bridgestones in the snow yet. I was considering trying other tyres which I think would perform better in the wet, but didn't want the hassle of non-RFTs. I suspect the Dunlop All Seasons from Tirerack would be better.

Many feel their previous cars were faster than their GTR in the wet, many ex B7 RS4, Evo and Impreza owners (on the right tyres) feel this. They all have about 40-50% front torque bias before there is any slip vs 2% on the GTR.

I think the car would be much quicker with more proactive torque transfer to the front axle. Problem is that the AWD module is apparently not flashable, and even if it was, from breakages that have happened, it doesn't appear that the transfer box likes to handle a lot of torque to the front wheels.


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

charles charlie said:


> followed by a lap in one of our GTRs to see the difference a COBB makes.... :chuckle:


and I'll be defining the other end of the performance envelope:nervous:


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

charles charlie said:


> I'm in Formby, near Southport.
> 
> If you fancy a meet up with some other GTR owners, some of us will be at Anglesey track on Sat 30th October.
> 
> Might be a nice excuse for a drive, followed by a lap in one of our GTRs to see the difference a COBB makes.... :chuckle:


I know it well as try to take the dog to The Point most weekends for a run on the beach/dunes. I'm in Wrightington so fairly close by.

The 30th Oct is a date i'll likely not be able to make, although that's a shame as never even seen the Anglesey track so do fancy a look. Got my youngest son that weekend & i doubt he'd fancy watching cars in the freezing cold.

What's the event?


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

w8pmc said:


> I know it well as try to take the dog to The Point most weekends for a run on the beach/dunes.
> 
> What's the event?


Well if you down this weekend, PM me as I'm right by the squirrels at Formby Point. I'll take you for a spin in a cobb'd GTR with full Ti zorst....

The trip to Anglesey is just a chance for a few of us to catch up, sink a few beers, then tear arse around Anglesey on the saturday, all in the name of good fun.

It's a great way to get some track time when it's reasonably quiet and Anglesey is a great track with super smooth tarmac and lots of run off (never needed, unless your name is Wheelie!).


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

charles charlie said:


> Best advice I have been given was from Andy Middlehurst (of Middlehurst HPC and ex BTCC racer)..
> 
> *The 4WD only works at steering angles of less than (IIRC) 10-15 degrees *so the trick is to bring the throttle in progressively as you unwind the wheel.
> 
> Another good idea is to do the Drift course from CATD and then you can really scare yourself!


10-15 degrees is very little!
I've heard it from enough sources (and had enough sideways moments both on track and off!) to know that this is true, but I can't for the life of me work out why this restriction was put into the car? 

It is totally at odds with the previous Skyline GT-Rs and means that you can't use the AWD to pull yourself out of a big angle slide which kind of defeats the purpose of having an AWD supercar?

So does anyone know if the front torque is limited or just completely cut when the steering is at an angle of greater than 15 degrees?


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

David.Yu said:


> 10-15 degrees is very little!
> I've heard it from enough sources (and had enough sideways moments both on track and off!) to know that this is true, but I can't for the life of me work out why this restriction was put into the car?
> 
> It is totally at odds with the previous Skyline GT-Rs and means that you can't use the AWD to pull yourself out of a big angle slide which kind of defeats the purpose of having an AWD supercar?
> ...


Couldnt agree more David, it's been a source of bemusement to me also.

I'm in at MH on Friday so I'll see if Gary or Andy are in, and pick their brains.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Cheers Andy, BTW to the OP, the car is tricky in the wet on either of the summer tyres, but is pretty safe in normal mode.

R mode or off is only if you have a lot of space in the wet!

Would love to try the all season Dunlops they sell in Japan and the US.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Get some Dave, you know you want to !!!

Yeah I agree with all said about the AWD and as you say sort of defeats the "spirit" of the Skyline esc history !


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Steve said:


> Get some Dave, you know you want to !!!
> 
> Yeah I agree with all said about the AWD and as you say sort of defeats the "spirit" of the Skyline esc history !


I've just forked out for a new set of R888s!

Will just use the V8 XC90 we've picked up when it snows or is torrentially wet...


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

David.Yu said:


> Cheers Andy, BTW to the OP, the car is tricky in the wet on either of the summer tyres, but is pretty safe in normal mode.
> 
> R mode or off is only if you have a lot of space in the wet!
> 
> Would love to try the all season Dunlops they sell in Japan and the US.


Cheers. Still early days so defo in learning mode, but good to know the AWD is restricted so don't go hooning around in the wet as perhaps i'd have done in the RS4. Was not a scary tank slap & not that big so may have self corrected as i was in Comfort & normal settings due to running in.


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

charles charlie said:


> Well if you down this weekend, PM me as I'm right by the squirrels at Formby Point. I'll take you for a spin in a cobb'd GTR with full Ti zorst....
> 
> The trip to Anglesey is just a chance for a few of us to catch up, sink a few beers, then tear arse around Anglesey on the saturday, all in the name of good fun.
> 
> It's a great way to get some track time when it's reasonably quiet and Anglesey is a great track with super smooth tarmac and lots of run off (never needed, unless your name is Wheelie!).


If we can make it to the coast this weekend, it would be Saturday morning & defo not in the GT-R as it's a no kid/no dog zone so we use the Q5 for all things messy. If likely to head over i'll drop you a message & thanks.

Unlikely i'll be able to make Anglesey due to child commitments. How much is a day out on Anglesey? If i can't make this one i'll defo try to make the next one.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Dare I ask how much the R888's are ??

Did you get rid of the Allroader (you never called me back !!)


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## GTRSTAR (Nov 26, 2009)

This is not a car that can be driven like an EVO or Scooby, it will bite you. :nervous:

Especially on boost, in second gear, at lower speeds and on fresh tyres. :wavey:

The four wheel drive system works best at take off speeds or very high speeds with very little lock, the rest of the time its a still a boosty rear drive car that wants to play with its clothes off. 

Ive found its more difficult to control the acceleration in a GTR unlike a large capacity non turbo engine where you can moderate the throttle more easily. :runaway:

As I demonstrated at Castle Combe, make sure the car is in a straight line before you mash the loud pedal, too much lock and you'll end up in a cloud of smoke! :flame:


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Will be at CC again on the 29th if you wanna join the fun ??


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## GTRSTAR (Nov 26, 2009)

Steve said:


> Will be at CC again on the 29th if you wanna join the fun ??


Where do I sign...


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

I must confess I got a touch over excited when R got back from the ring - R modes all the way and pulled out onto the Kings Road in a manner not befitting the IAM and ended up staring sideways down the road. The screaming from the passenger seat didn't help matters bit a swift dab off oppo sorted it out! Certainly now being very smooth and progressive into roundabouts etc and it seems more like a balanced 350z than a 4WD get out of jail free drive. Doesn't half hunt around with the front end under braking too. I love post Opto blasts ;-)


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

Steve said:


> Dare I ask how much the R888's are ??
> 
> Did you get rid of the Allroader (you never called me back !!)


R888s cost between the price of the Dunlops and the Bridgies, but are better than either.

Sorry, Allroad is now for sale as replacement has arrived. But you wanted a new shape diseasal, didn't you? Call me tomorrow!


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## ColicCalm (Oct 15, 2010)

I like that the GTRs torque is sent to her rear. Bearing in mind that in the wet, whilst driving reasonably, and ensuring that I am sensitive to the road and weather conditions and time of day, rarely does she step out of line. 

However, should the road conditions allow and the time of day permit, then this car is a beast of a drift box. I enjoy regular sideward action in the MCoupe and GT2, regardless of the speeds at which I am travelling; however in the GTR I seem to have a greater level of choice as to when I would like to go sideward. A twitch of the accelerator pedal allows for the production of enough torques to kick out her big arse nicely and further to this, with the lack of a clutch pedal nor the necessity to toe and heal, never has the shift lock been effortless. Currently, my car doesn't rev match on the down shift well enough, so the slight retardation of the rear wheels, whilst not locking, followed by a hefty plant of throttle, is enough to prompt her to dance. Oddly enough this is a rather fun trait and in retrospect I’m starting to regret asking WLMG to put this right at her optimisation.

Yes, I agree – in a perfect world, the front wheels would have an over 50% torque bias when taking a corner, thus pulling the car through the corner, rather than having the rear wheels possibly making a mess when pushing the car through; However, ultimately Nissan’s train of thought must have been such that – ‘We will try and save some wonga allowing us to create a half price supercar, thus making it affordable to a greater market. Through doing so, surely we will find more people that will enjoy controlling the understeer with their right foot, rather than spending an extra few million in designing a better AWD system, henceforth making the car only affordable to a select few pensioners!’

Out of interest has anyone tried a set of PS2s that properly fit the GTR? I have found them to be my favourite all rounder tyre, exceptionally sticky in the dry and also progressive in the wet.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

ColicCalm said:


> Out of interest has anyone tried a set of PS2s that properly fit the GTR? I have found them to be my favourite all rounder tyre, exceptionally sticky in the dry and also progressive in the wet.


From memory, I might be wrong though, R35Bren tried them and said the sidewalls weren't stiff enough and they were wobbly. You'll find it in the tire section if you look.


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## ColicCalm (Oct 15, 2010)

TAZZMAXX said:


> From memory, I might be wrong though, R35Bren tried them and said the sidewalls weren't stiff enough and they were wobbly. You'll find it in the tire section if you look.


Damn, I was hoping that they'd work. In fairness, I've got them them on cars which are much lighter than the GTR. Might be time to look into the 888s then.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

GTRSTAR said:


> Where do I sign...


Call 01249 782417 or go to Castle Combe Circuit - speak to Maria tell her I sent you ! 

If the weather is like it is today it will be FANTASTIC !!!

Steve


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

The only way to go with tyres is - and you all know what I am going to say - BRIDGESTONE RE070 's !!!

Better, cheaper, all round good tyre + track tyre !


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

ColicCalm said:


> Yes, I agree – in a perfect world, the front wheels would have an over 50% torque bias when taking a corner, thus pulling the car through the corner, rather than having the rear wheels possibly making a mess when pushing the car through; However, ultimately Nissan’s train of thought must have been such that – ‘We will try and save some wonga allowing us to create a half price supercar, thus making it affordable to a greater market. Through doing so, surely we will find more people that will enjoy controlling the understeer with their right foot, rather than spending an extra few million in designing a better AWD system, henceforth making the car only affordable to a select few pensioners!’


Well the older Skyline GT-Rs could lock up the centre diff if the rear wheels were spinning enough, giving a 50:50 torque split if required, which meant that given enough space you could do glorious full oppo lock power slides with no danger of actually spinning provided you had the balls to keep the throttle pinned!

Also the R33 and R34 V-specs had active rear diffs that could apportion torque from side to side on the rear axle.

I asked Mizuno-san why the R35 doesn't have an active diff and he said because they can't react quick enough for his liking.
Doesn't seem to have stopped Porsche, Ferrari, BMW etc from making some fine handling cars with active rear diffs...


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Mmmmmm and i can still have that "play" time with my R33 !!!


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

GTRSTAR said:


> This is not a car that can be driven like an EVO or Scooby, it will bite you. :nervous:
> 
> Especially on boost, in second gear, at lower speeds and on fresh tyres. :wavey:
> 
> ...


Cheers, good info. I've never driven an Evo or Scooby, but i guess their AWD system works in a similar fashion to Audi'd Quattro, however i know on my B7 RS4 & the new RS6 as well as the R8, the biaise was to RWD as 60/40.


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## ColicCalm (Oct 15, 2010)

David.Yu said:


> I asked Mizuno-san why the R35 doesn't have an active diff and he said because they can't react quick enough for his liking.
> Doesn't seem to have stopped Porsche, Ferrari, BMW etc from making some fine handling cars with active rear diffs...


Mizuno-san ought to have said that whilst diffs from previous MKs could have been further developed to work with the R35 however, Nissan decided on spending their capital in other areas. 

I think with the R35, because they were lifting the bar on performance so that the car could contend with the big boys as oem, Nissan had to make compromises in order to keep their costs down. Oddly enough with the 35 v-spec, at nearly double the price, it still lacks an active diff - something that considering the price tag, could have been achieved however wasn't. 

You're damn lucky to have spoken with the man himself - even luckier if you went for a drive with him!


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