# Nismo Performance damper



## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

NISMO | Performance Damper Set

would like some experts opinions LOL


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Aki can comment in real.life on track experience


----------



## MeisterR (Jul 19, 2008)

Trust Nismo to come up with stuff that I have never thought about...
Got to hand it to them... they may be expensive but always takes R&D to a whole new level.

Jerrick


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Im ordering a set this week


----------



## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Old idea Ron, STI has put similar stuff on the spec c ra-r I believe a while ago.


----------



## FakeThinkpad (Apr 30, 2011)

Rain said:


> Old idea Ron, STI has put similar stuff on the spec c ra-r I believe a while ago.


that is true, a lot of rally cars uses them and have been for some time. will be ordering my kit soon to.

Aki posted some first impressions on his blog a while back.


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

the item has been around a while and shipped a few sets over that time, 

(not to UK GT-R owners i have to add)

thought may as well give this a whirl as well.

sets ordered for 32/33/34


----------



## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Intriguing. Bucks?


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Nismo prices ;-) not homemade lol


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Price is not that bad.




Says the ex-R35 owner. :chuckle:


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

matty32 said:


> Aki can comment in real.life on track experience


To save people looking for it...

"Now, I had heard how these dampers worked, in theory. And Koyama-san at Nissan told me to expect the car to feel somewhere "between an R34 and R35" in terms of rigidity and steering response. Yeah right! Whatever...

But when I got in the car and begain driving home - guess what, he was right! Absolutely transformed the car, I could not believe how solid and smooth the car felt. Made the car much easier to drive fast...incredible.

Here is Nismo's explanation as to how they work:
NISMO | Performance Damper Set
"Even if the car body is reinforced and made more rigid, road surface input through the tires and load shifts during cornering make the entire body act like a spring, causing the occurrence of micro vibrations. The performance damper acts to control the transmission of micro vibrations to the body. During circuit driving, micro vibrations from the car body are transmitted through the steering system to the driver, resulting too often in unnecessary steering corrections. With the performance damper installed, however these micro vibrations are eliminated and excessive steering wheel handling is no longer needed, resulting in more stable handling. Also, in normal driving, the micro vibrations are eliminated, as well providing a much more enjoyable and comfortable ride."


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Less than a Y pipe! lol

best to let Aki or Miguel reply as they have had direct experience.

edit - well there you go.


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Tempting.

But then it'd actually be nice in some ways to start with the car and add bits and feel any differences as I go along.

Could just bolt it all on, but then you have no idea what made the car better and why.


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

nismo blurb said:


> micro vibrations from the car body are transmitted through the steering system to the driver, resulting too often in unnecessary steering corrections



It seems to me that if a driver can't identify bump steer from oversteer in the first place, then they will probably not even notice the difference.

£700 plus shipping down the toilet for the average driver???


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

depends on how you drive and what you use the car for i guess?


----------



## WillRobDon (Jul 29, 2006)

I put a thread up about this a long time ago. They were around £700 which seems ok. It's on my wish list!


----------



## Jimbostir (Dec 2, 2008)

Haha! Ron why do you mean by "expert?"!


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

yeah they £700

ive a set of these on order should arrive next week.

few spare sets ordered for other GT-R types.


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

matty32 said:


> few spare sets ordered for other GT-R types.


Tease. :thumbsup:


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

CT17 said:


> Tease. :thumbsup:


not at all Richard.

they ordered as got a few people who have asked last week :clap:


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

OMG...seriously???

I had to double check it wasn't April the first!!! Also had to check I hadn't been transported to some alternate universe after I saw the price.....
Guys, this has to probably be THE most blatant fleecing of consumers I have witnessed of late (even more than the related strut brace 'thing' I find so bizarre!). Now I'd be VERY interested to hear how ANY engineer could justify, with a straight face, the need for that!!!

To paraphrase a famous Corellian Captain...
"I've been to a lot of places and seen a lot of strange stuff but I've never seen ANYTHING to make me believe".... that this piece of equipment would do the slightest bit of good!!


LOL......and "only" for £700-odd quid!!


Its a Christmas bargain folks :chuckle:

TT


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

tarmac terror said:


> OMG...seriously???
> 
> I had to double check it wasn't April the first!!! Also had to check I hadn't been transported to some alternate universe after I saw the price.....
> Guys, this has to probably be THE most blatant fleecing of consumers I have witnessed of late (even more than the related strut brace 'thing' I find so bizarre!). Now I'd be VERY interested to hear how ANY engineer could justify, with a straight face, the need for that!!!
> ...



speak to Aki

or as you normally do make your own version our of some rubber bands :chuckle:

i dont mind if people buy them or not, its just whats on offer from Nismo

thats the price they charge, check it out on their site


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

No need to be a **** thankyouverymuch...:chairshot

Would genuinely like to see some proper engineering justification in proper english ( not some otherworldly translation that means diddly squat!) in order to understand how the hell they can peddle stuff like this...

TT


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Aki has fitted these to his 33, and done a number of track days.

feel free to ask him, i am sure he will give genuine feedback as per his blog, about the improvement.

i cannot comment as i have not driven a car with them fitted, however im ordering some as tbh why not.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

You misunderstand..

Not really interested in feedback as that can be VERY subjective and swayed by numerous factors. I would much prefer some no-nonsense engineering speak as to how they can possibly justify the NEED for an item such as this.

As an ex-engineer, I'm trying to understand WHY they felt it was even necessary to develop such a thing???...All that I know and have learned tells me that ANY justification is going to be flaky AT BEST!!!

However, as an openminded soul I am prepared to be re-educated should sufficiently robust justification and engineering rationale be brought forward.

Im sure folks will buy it and be all aglow with praise for how it has 'transformed' the car and how they cannot believe it was so cheap! Im not going to deny them their right to buy....

Im just coming at this from an engineering standpoint...that is all!!

TT


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm with TT on this.

From an engineering prospective, its flawed.

Here is an extract from Middlehurst.

_R34 Skyline GT-R
As Nissan racing car designers will tell you, the stiffer and lighter the bodyshell, the better the chassis behaviour. For the new R34 GT-R Nissan used a MRS (Multi Road Simulator) computer to help identify the optimum points for structural reinforcement. They then handed the car to the GT-R test team for final evaluation under real driving conditions on the track.
As Nissan racing car designers will tell you, the stiffer and lighter the bodyshell, the better the chassis behaviour. For the new R34 GT-R Nissan used a MRS (Multi Road Simulator) computer to help identify the optimum points for structural reinforcement. They then handed the car to the GT-R test team for final evaluation under real driving conditions on the track._

So come up with some **** and ball about the body shell acting 'like a spring'. 
I know, lets remove something solid and designed to increase rigidity with something that moves, say a gas strut. Thats what all the other race cars use. Lol

Seriously, there are no facts or figures, no information to make an informed choice, just a load of 'micro vibration' sales ball crap.
There are a number of flaws in the 'technical jargon'. The whole concept, if the text were to be believed, is also wrong.

But hey, you earned you money, you spend it how you like.


----------



## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Must admit I was just keeping quiet as I figured if you want to spend 700pound on this then go for it......but really? 

When I saw these I thought about a famous racing driver from this side of the planet (Peter Brock) who installed a "box" in the engine bay of some special edition cars that had his name on in the early 90's that was called "Energy Polariser" that was a hippy, crystal smoking thing that did f-all of nothing......

I'm sorry, stiffening the chassis with braces or a cage would be a far better spend of 700 large!


----------



## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

I had to check to see if it was April 1st too.

Presumably developed by the same part of Nismo that wasted their time on the Juke ? opcorn:

Cheers

Stu


----------



## David (Apr 25, 2003)

I am with TT and R32

Following Nismo's justification all the time attack cars would handle significantly better if they removed all the nasty stiffness from the multipont cage and instead added a cage built from multi-point dampers.

What a load of BS


----------



## FakeThinkpad (Apr 30, 2011)

mambastu said:


> I had to check to see if it was April 1st too.
> 
> Presumably developed by the same part of Nismo that wasted their time on the Juke ? opcorn:
> 
> ...


These are not originally develuped by Nismo but a company called Yamaha, they are now used on most rally cars, and they have been discussed being a part of many new factory cars by various manufactorers. 

Interestingly also received several engineering and industrial awards in Japan.


----------



## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

Performance Dampers - The Yamaha Businesses | YAMAHA MOTOR CO., LTD.

The blue car at the start of the video cracked me up. Reminded me of my Skoda with 200,000 mile suspension..only more rubbery. 

Cheers

Stu


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

matty32 said:


> depends on how you drive and what you use the car for i guess?


Not really. An average driver is an average driver regardless of enviroment or venue. IF they really work, they may be useful for a regular and above average trackday goer, but for 95+% of owners, there's better things to spend money on.

I appreciate you'll never agree because you want to sell them, but since there's plenty of Ayrton Schumachers here, I'm sure you'll sell loads.


----------



## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

as an item to help with "refinement" or "acoustics" I might be able to get on board with it.. 

but an item that supposed to help with handling - hahahah.... come on - seriously???

is it meant to be a "go-between" from "standard" to "roll caged up" cars ???


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

tarmac terror said:


> No need to be a **** thankyouverymuch...:chairshot
> 
> Would genuinely like to see some proper engineering justification in proper english ( not some otherworldly translation that means diddly squat!) in order to understand how the hell they can peddle stuff like this...
> 
> TT



Who is 'peddling' stuff like this? Like Subaru did with their OEM part? Like Yamaha do on some of their bikes? 

The damper attenuates vibration/deflection of the chassis at its 'natural' frequency. Usually the stiffer/greater mass the chassis, the higher this frequency tends to be so the damper needs to be tuned to cover this. The Nismo version is tuned to work with the R34 shell and even the R33 shell.

As the tyre/wheels reacts to undulations and bumps, it travels up and down at various frequencies, the energy is absorbed by the spring and the energy released from the spring is attenuated by your shock/dampers. Some of this energy still makes it into the chassis and when its frequency matches that of the natural frequency of the chassis, the chassis becomes 'excited' (wheel vertical LOAD rapidly changing) and leads to all kinds of unexplained twitchiness and handling foibles. 

High unsprung masses will create higher forces at natural frequency than low unsprung masses, so the bum on seat feel effect varies between car to car.

This affects all vehicles, from your Corsa, your Luton van, to an F1 race car - the issue of chassis vibrations and deflection is *real*. 

So real in terms of performance and handling that EUROPEAN racing teams have adopted other methods to mitigate the negative effects of the unsprung mass acting rampant against the chassis. McLaren's 'J-damper' or Renaults mass damper were classic examples of ways to isolate the effects from the chassis.

I sense from some posters here the usual reception of anything from the Far East is treated with suspicion and contempt.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

R32 Combat said:


> So come up with some **** and ball about the body shell acting 'like a spring'.
> I know, lets remove something solid and designed to increase rigidity with something that moves, say a gas strut. Thats what all the other race cars use. Lol


Where you are failing to understand is that a bodyshell/chassis is not infinitely stiff, it does not exist nor is it ideal for a car.

Even if it was, the vertical wheel forces at natural frequency would displace the chassis at that frequency unless you have *perfect* suspension damping, which too does not exist.

The 'performance damper' does not increase or reduce rigidity, all it does is attenuates the chassis vibration and deflections at natural frequency.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

nick the tubman said:


> but an item that supposed to help with handling - hahahah.... come on - seriously???


Yes it does, it's as effective and beneficial to gentle street driving as it is to flat out racing.

It helps the chassis *behave* more predictably. A predictable chassis is something every car designer aims to have, as it is applicable to every form of driving.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Im sorry but that sounds like a lot of spin and BS IMHO...

I could, if I took a minute, write a very convincing engineering article on how the fibres from banana skin could revolutionise the manufacture of pistons and damp unwanted vibrations in the conrods.

My point is that this sounds like a highly tenuous justification and, like lots of things in motorsport, would seem the the emperors new clothes. Ive seen a good few things air for a season or two and head off into the wilderness never to be discussed again.

Even if this WAS to make a difference, which i contend it does not, the benefit will be SO small as to be imperceivable and i suspect immeasurable. If you are getting into the realms of tuning harmonics out of your R33/4 shell/suspension then you are clearly driving the wrong car and should be in F1 or GT.

TT


Oh, and I'm not all "anti far-east" just anti "BS".


----------



## git-r (Nov 15, 2005)

opcorn:

Interesting reading... What does Ron think of it??


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Sidious said:


> Where you are failing to understand is that a bodyshell/chassis is not infinitely stiff, it does not exist nor is it ideal for a car.
> 
> Even if it was, the vertical wheel forces at natural frequency would displace the chassis at that frequency unless you have *perfect* suspension damping, which too does not exist.
> 
> The 'performance damper' does not increase or reduce rigidity, all it does is attenuates the chassis vibration and deflections at natural frequency.


If you remove a strut brace and replace it with a gas strut filled with Unobtainium, its reduced rigidity.

Here are our body brace kits by Nismo.

But wait, no, don't buy these. Ideally you need a car that feel like 2 tons of loosely spring pig iron, fill it with dampers inside and you'll be sorted.

Do not confuse the Nismo product with this technology

With a race car, you have consistency, tolerances, parameters etc. With a road car you have, in comparison, sod all.

Again, where is the technical information?


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

I thinks the last 3 letters of Rons opening post sums it up.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

mambastu said:


> Performance Dampers - The Yamaha Businesses | YAMAHA MOTOR CO., LTD.


OMG...just read the blurb and watched the videos.....

im speechless!!!! 

This is nonsense, im sorry...it just is.

TT


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

One for the album

_Benefits of the Performance Dampers
Adds additional body damping to achieve optimum body viscosity.
Appropriate body viscosity is an essential factor in the comfort and stability that characterize high-quality and premium vehicle bodies.
The Performance Dampers is a product that delivers optimum body viscosity in a controllable manner._

Interesting use of the word 'viscosity'.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

tarmac terror said:


> Im sorry but that sounds like a lot of spin and BS IMHO...
> 
> I could, if I took a minute, write a very convincing engineering article on how the fibres from banana skin could revolutionise the manufacture of pistons and damp unwanted vibrations in the conrods.


Not quite. The issue of natural frequencies of chassis and unsprung mass and the unwanted load variations is REAL. 

The damper is one effective way of dealing with the energy from unsprung mass vertical motion by damping this way.

The J-damper from Mclaren uses a flywheel, which introduces inertia - so that wheel motion at the estimated natural frequency does not happen so easily so less of this energy disturbs the chassis.





> Even if this WAS to make a difference, which i contend it does not, the benefit will be SO small as to be imperceivable and i suspect immeasurable. If you are getting into the realms of tuning harmonics out of your R33/4 shell/suspension then you are clearly driving the wrong car and should be in F1 or GT.


This is a typical response from practitioners of comfort zone 'Neanderthal logic', if it cant be measured, it cant possibly exist.


You also confuse the term harmonics with natural frequency and based on this, it's pretty much a waste of time to discuss this any further but to suggest you do some reading. 

All the pieces of the jig saw will come together if you are actually bothered to learn than to dismiss.







> Oh, and I'm not all "anti far-east" just anti "BS".



But you are in no qualified position, heck you are in no informed position to call anything BS. 

You cant sit back and demand an explanation, and then say oh thats BS. That demonstrates you are accustomed to being hand fed knowledge or bottom line statements of fact rather than going out there and observing and understanding the issue that will actually answer your question.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

R32 Combat said:


> If you remove a strut brace and replace it with a gas strut filled with Unobtainium, its reduced rigidity.
> 
> But wait, no, don't buy these. Ideally you need a car that feel like 2 tons of loosely spring pig iron, fill it with dampers inside and you'll be sorted.


It does not replace the standard strut braces, it is augmented in parallel.

So get your facts straight before resorting to sarcasm.






R32 Combat said:


> Do not confuse the Nismo product with this technology
> 
> With a race car, you have consistency, tolerances, parameters etc. With a road car you have, in comparison, sod all.
> 
> Again, where is the technical information?



The J-damper is not the same technology, no one said it was. What they do have in common is that they are approaches to a problem where wheel/unsprung mass energy affects the chassis. 

The J-damper uses a mechanical flywheel as an impedance to wheel motion at x frequency.

The natural frequency of a stock or near stock chassis is known to the manufacturer. Nissan/Nismo or any car maker never needs to publishes such data to the joe public as 99.99% of cases it is irrelevant to the end user.

I suggest you and TT get your facts straight, heck if you are going to google in between making posts to try and sound like you know what you are talking about, double check that you UNDERSTAND the facts before you try to use them!


----------



## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

Some great posts Sidious. Just read a couple of articles on J dampers :thumbsup:


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Sidious said:


> It does not replace the standard strut braces, it is augmented in parallel.


You sure? I can't see the original in place in the pics on Nismo page.


----------



## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

With all of the other "flexy" things going on in a 15-20yr old road car, (rubber suspension bushes, rubber subframe bushes, etc) I can't see how you can compare this to anything that McLaren have developed for a race car.

Even if it did something, there is far too much flex in the car everywhere else to even notice the damper......and it's 700 knicker!


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

moleman said:


> You sure? I can't see the original in place in the pics on Nismo page.



It does replace the boot brace I believe.


----------



## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

git-r said:


> opcorn:
> 
> Interesting reading... What does Ron think of it??


Well if this had any other brand name on it i would have laughed and said what a load of old bollocks.
Then i thought would Nismo put there name to something that was not quality?
Thats why i put it on here to see some other views as i no there are SOME clever people on here


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Bottom line is Ron, your a ****ing good driver anyway so put the £700 in your pension pot.


----------



## muzzer2002 (Oct 10, 2007)

am sure i have an old shocker somewhere that i can fab some parts and extend it save me 700 quid or just buy 2 bonnet dampers n join them lol


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

R32 Combat said:


> Bottom line is Ron, your a ****ing good driver anyway so put the £700 in your pension pot.


I don't think it's for his car. 
Just a general question.


----------



## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

How heavily sprung must it be to give the equivalent strength of the strut bar?


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

CT17 said:


> I don't think it's for his car.
> Just a general question.


Lol, ok.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> How heavily sprung must it be to give the equivalent strength of the strut bar?


Its function is different to a strut brace.


----------



## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

R32 Combat said:


> Lol, ok.


Dont like to recommend parts to customers without some knowledge as to there usefulness and value.
My expert said not worth the weight penalty but good for pub talk


----------



## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Has this kit been available for the past 20+ years or have they just realised the benefits of it and recently released it?

I've got to say that I am siding with the engineers on this one.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Personally, i'd park it in the 'aluminium wheel nut' and 'Antistatic strap' bin. Theoretically function with negligible results.


----------



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Would be interesting to log how much flex you get between the points of where a rear strut brace is fitted - to see how much movements you would get. This can be done with a linear pot in a similar way of measuring suspension travel. I am skeptical about its benefits until data of flex is available.


----------



## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

R32 Combat said:


> Its function is different to a strut brace.


But...

What?

I don't get it?


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> But...
> 
> What?
> 
> I don't get it?


Just keep mining bitcoins.


----------



## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

If by bitcoins you mean bogeys and mining your mean picking...


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> If by bitcoins you mean bogeys and mining your mean picking...


I do, i do.


----------



## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

My current daily driver only cost fifty quid more than this damper kit:chuckle:


----------



## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Needs to go in the same pot as power cables that make your hifi sound better at 1000x the price of a standard one imho


----------



## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

As an Engineer, I'd hazard a bet they work as advertised.
Damping chassis frequencies can only help handling and Yamaha aren't exactly renowned snake oil sellers, neither are Nismo.
Price is a bit high for what is essentially a gas spring unit and long rod.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

CT17 said:


> It does replace the boot brace I believe.



If you take a close look at the photos, you can see a black strut bar on the R33 boot photo, and the thread/adjustment nut on the R34 photo.

Nismo even state the use of strut brace at the rear is required for the R32 as they dont have these standard.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

RKTuning said:


> Dont like to recommend parts to customers without some knowledge as to there usefulness and value.
> My expert said not worth the weight penalty but good for pub talk


LOL, well according to Sidious your "expert" clearly has no clue!!

:chuckle:

Seems Andy and I need to meet this person and form some sort of 'idiots club'

TT


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

Sub Boy said:


> With all of the other "flexy" things going on in a 15-20yr old road car, (rubber suspension bushes, rubber subframe bushes, etc) I can't see how you can compare this to anything that McLaren have developed for a race car.
> 
> Even if it did something, there is far too much flex in the car everywhere else to even notice the damper......and it's 700 knicker!


With bushes you get almost static rate Flex/deflection.

What the damper does is controls chassis deflection and displacement based on frequency. That means the chassis on a minute level moves in all directions at frequency, or to crudely put it, this so called vibration but that term isn't really the correct one in the context of cars and handling.

A small amount of flex/displacement upsets suspension behavior as the geometry is altered and even more importantly wheel load is changing. 

That small amount of displacement in various directions many times a second because the unsprung mass energy making its way into the chassis gives the driver that sense of instability, poorer handling and even loss of contact to the road.

Given that a body shell or tube frame has its own natural frequencies, the frame will displace even more greatly at those frequencies. 

To put this in simple terms. So if a body shell had a natural frequency of say 6Hz (6 cycles per second) and you were traveling over a kerb or undulation midcorner, your front and rear inside wheels/tyre/brakes/suspension arms are bumping up and down over them at 6 times a second - the spring/damper will do its best to isolate and damp this energy but as no suspension can perfectly isolate the chassis from the road, this chassis will react badly to this as the rate at which the unsprung masses travel up and down is the same as the natural frequency of the body shell, and then you will have your moment of having to lift off, frantically correcting the steering and ultimately lose speed and confidence.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

lightspeed said:


> As an Engineer, I'd hazard a bet they work as advertised.
> Damping chassis frequencies can only help handling and Yamaha aren't exactly renowned snake oil sellers, neither are Nismo.
> Price is a bit high for what is essentially a gas spring unit and long rod.


It is expensive, but it is made in low volumes and it is valved specifically to work against a standard or near standard body shell.

It is unlikley to work on a stripped, re-welded, roll caged weekend racer as it's natural frequency would be significantly changed.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Sidious said:


> This is a typical response from practitioners of comfort zone 'Neanderthal logic', if it cant be measured, it cant possibly exist.


Conversely, those who dont subscribe to the "cant be measured, cant exist" could be labelled as quacks and put in the same bin as conspiracy theorists!. Science and logic is underpinned by empirical observation and measurement. So your implying that the benefits from this may be immeasurable but 'thats ok because just because you cant measure it...it still works'





> But you are in no qualified position, heck you are in no informed position to call anything BS.


Oh really!!!?? And you know this because..........?????




> You cant sit back and demand an explanation, and then say oh thats BS. That demonstrates you are accustomed to being hand fed knowledge or bottom line statements of fact rather than going out there and observing and understanding the issue that will actually answer your question.


LOL...how ironic. I cant be arsed to go into it but thats SO far from the truth its laughable!!

Enjoy your Nismo damper....im sure it'll transform your car and, like moneysupermarket, you'll feel epic!!

TT


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

FRRACER said:


> Would be interesting to log how much flex you get between the points of where a rear strut brace is fitted - to see how much movements you would get. This can be done with a linear pot in a similar way of measuring suspension travel. I am skeptical about its benefits until data of flex is available.


The ultimate degree per Nm offlex isn't really the point here, it is at what frequency the movement/displacement of the chassis at x many times a second needs to be understood.

An 'engineer' can do 2 things:

1 - Tune the natural frequency as much out of the range experienced on track/road. This is impractical as roads and tracks all differ and you would need a very heavy and very strong chassis to do this.

2 - Create an path on chassis where this energy can be damped via impedance to motion at a desired frequency (McLaren's J-damper, Yamaha performance damper)


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

tarmac terror said:


> Conversely, those who dont subscribe to the "cant be measured, cant exist" could be labelled as quacks and put in the same bin as conspiracy theorists!. Science and logic is underpinned by empirical observation and measurement. So your implying that the benefits from this may be immeasurable but 'thats ok because just because you cant measure it...it still works'


You don't subscribe to a topic because it is out of your comfort zone and incompatible with your beliefs. That makes you narrow minded.

Observation and measurement is only a guidance to total understanding of the matter.

A damper can be "measured" on a dyno, only to find that 2 dampers that "measure" the same perform very differently in practice.

Many engineers spent years scratching their heads as they wonder why this is, only to later learn that their method of measuring has failed them as it does not take into account of factors such as 'stiction' and the dynamic rate of damper shaft movements which greatly affect how it performs in the real world.

It is about understanding behavior rather than looking for bottom line numbers and measurements.


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Sidious said:


> If you take a close look at the photos, you can see a black strut bar on the R33 boot photo


Ah, I had taken that to be a shadow, but it does appear to be the OE brace if you save the pic and zoom in.


----------



## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

How can it dampen when there is a rigid bar bridging the same space?


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Simonh said:


> Needs to go in the same pot as power cables that make your hifi sound better at 1000x the price of a standard one imho


Indeed.

I postulate that any measurable benefts that this item would deliver will be of miniscule proportion. As has been noted, the benefits that cant be measured  are those of knowing that you are contributing to the Nismo christmas night out fund.
Not only that but by having a more efficient handling car you are, in fact, outputing less CO2 thereby reducing the effects of global warming and saving polar bears, penguins and walrusses :clap:

Actually, the 'feel good' factor of this damper is soooo good that I'm tempted to buy a set each for all my cars...

Seriously though, are we seriously saying that the addition of 2 of these 'special' dampers is going to remove unwanted frequencies from the shell to a degree that you could actually perceive? 

It was stated and shown in the pics that they work in conjunction with the standard strut braces.....??? That means you have 2 strut tops joined by a rigid brace and supplemented by a non-rigid damper? If I read that correctly then they would appear to be working against each other.*Just noticed Mooks post above...still curious though*

TT


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

Mookistar said:


> How can it dampen when there is a rigid bar bridging the same space?



The rigid strut brace will not prevent the chassis from displacing/vibrating or flexing, it just helps reduce it between the struts. 

It doesn't at all reduce movement in any other part of the chassis as it is not re-enforcing those parts.

Whatever movement there is in the chassis with strut bars in place, there is movement in various frequencies (even the strut braces will vibrate at natural frequency), you just don't want it at the frequency that is natural to the chassis as the movement will be greatest and doesn't help handling what so ever.

The damper is conveniently placed close to the unsprung mass, so that there is an additional path for this unwanted load, less of it will disturb the rest of the chassis.


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

moleman said:


> Ah, I had taken that to be a shadow, but it does appear to be the OE brace if you save the pic and zoom in.


Yes its not a very good photo, most likely Nismo wanting the punters to focus only on the product in its intended place.


----------



## simplysideways (Apr 17, 2007)

it prob only suits less than 5% Of the users here if the trader trying to sell it it now isnt really involved in entering the conversation again


----------



## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

Sidious is the only one here who appears to be accurately explaining the how these Nismo (Yamaha) dampers work, and their purpose.

What I was told is - actually, these do NOT make the car handle BETTER. They simply improve the FEEL of the car, by eliminating micro vibrations. So, the stiffer the car, the better because the car will already be rigid and handle well. So yes all of your standard braces should be in place. 

With these dampers, the vibrations you get from a stiffer car get dampened and you get a smoother, more precise feeling/less tiring ride. For me, that means the car feels much more modern too.

For those who care to read this- 
http://global.yamaha-motor.com/jp/profile/craftsmanship/technical/publish/no45/pdf/gs04.pdf

Oh and it's not just Yamaha and Nissan, but others like Toyota and Subaru who are installing these btw.

Finally, I've seen this several times on this board, but why do people who haven't even installed the part, and cannot read the original Japanese description, choose to criticize and dismiss it? (Armchair car engineers?). 

Are you trying to dissuade others from trying it? Why? Are you guys so smart that everyone should listen to you? 

Everyone should be a skeptic before buying something somewhat expensive, and I would be the first to agree to spend money on properly stiffening the chassis of your car first, but if you have the money, and want to improve your car, why not get this part? If it doesn't work for you, then so what? 

I think I'm the only one of us who has installed it, and I will tell you, it works as advertised. 

I know some of you will jump on this post or what I wrote in my blog, and try to pick it apart - guess what, I don't give a sh*t unless you've actually had this installed on your car, and compared the difference before and after - otherwise you have no standing to question or critique anything I say, and you cannot be believed.

If I am an average driver and I can feel the difference, then so can you. Or, I could actually be a budding Aryton Senna (so I feel the difference but you cannot), in which case, thank you.

Happy Holidays everyone.

Aki

PS just to make sure people understand I'm not a Nismo fanboy, yes Nismo sells stuff which I consider unnecessary and/or overpriced crap too. But EVERYTHING they sell is overpriced, including stuff that DOES work, like this damper.


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

akasakaR33 said:


> What I was told is - actually, these do NOT make the car handle BETTER.


Which is contrary to what the Nismo blurb says - "During circuit driving, micro vibrations from the car body are transmitted through the steering system to the driver, resulting too often in unnecessary steering corrections. With the performance damper installed, however these micro vibrations are eliminated and excessive steering wheel handling is no longer needed,..."

I would call elimanating bump steer most certainly contributing to helping a car handle better.




akasakaR33 said:


> If I am an average driver and I can feel the difference, then so can you.


How do you feel the difference? Is it just noticeably smoother? Is there noticeably less bump steer? Does it feel more compliant?


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

akasakaR33 said:


> Sidious is the only one here who appears to be accurately explaining the how these Nismo (Yamaha) dampers work, and their purpose.
> 
> What I was told is - actually, these do NOT make the car handle BETTER. They simply improve the FEEL of the car, by eliminating micro vibrations. So, the stiffer the car, the better because the car will already be rigid and handle well. So yes all of your standard braces should be in place.
> 
> ...


Oh well..... As a so-called armchair car engineer who has not tried this part I am ashamed to have voiced an (dissenting) opinion and shall crawl back under the rock from whence I came. 

Strange though, as an ex-car technician who used to specialise in vehicle dynamics, I thought I might be clever enough to have seen the benefit of this but clearly i am not as Im still of the opinion (which i dont ask anyone else to subscribe to) that this is nonsense.

You've tried it, you think its fab so thats more than enough for me!!

TT


----------



## bobwoolmer (Mar 27, 2007)

FakeThinkpad said:


> These are not originally develuped by Nismo but a company called Yamaha, they are now used on most rally cars, and they have been discussed being a part of many new factory cars by various manufactorers.
> 
> Interestingly also received several engineering and industrial awards in Japan.


got these on my 34 
well impressed with them


----------



## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Thanks for the explanation Sidious.
I'm still struggling to see how this is going to make a 15-20 yr old floppy chassis car by today's standards handle better.
There are many things Nismo need to build to improve the handling of these cars before entering into the "realms of the immeasurable"


----------



## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

bobwoolmer said:


> got these on my 34
> well impressed with them


In what way Bob?
Could you be a bit more specific?
Were they fitted as an upgrade alone so you could attribute effects to them, or as part of other upgrades at the same time?

I am curious enough to consider trying them, hence me originally asking Ron at RK.
But I would want to try them after the car has been set up well and used, so I can see any effect in isolation to any other modifications.


----------



## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

I've seen these fitted as OEM parts (Painted all black of course) to recently manufactured cars such as Lexus & Subaru. 
I can't imagine they'd fit these to cars if they made no significant difference. 

Interesting to note they're in the areas of the chassis where there would be vibrations and on the chassis leg fronts, essentially tying the two together but with a damper in between (These are so stiff you can't compress them significantly with your own weight). 

Although I've felt the difference with a brace tying chassis legs together at the front, 
I don't understand enough about these dampers, nor have I driven a car (yet ) with them fitted, compared to without.

But I would imagine if Yamaha, Lexus, Subaru, Nissan and Nismo are involved with these, then a lot of research, time & money has been spent in proof these do make a difference before going to production.


----------



## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

I can see the point of these and I'd imagine they'd work as advertised.

Just not sure if I'd pony up that much cash for something that may not work the way "I think" it would work.


----------



## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

How will a damper affect in car acoustics?
It is an area worth considerable effort if a reduction is found. I can see a chassis damper working in this area.


----------



## narface (Apr 9, 2010)

I have the Nismo Performance Dampers fitted to my BNR32. There is a difference before and after installation.

First point to take note of, the Nismo Performance Dampers do not replace your existing chassis brace/strut brace. The front piece is installed onto the front tow hooks, while the rear piece is installed parallel to the rear strut brace.

The Nismo Performance Damper isn't used for increasing rigidity, that's why your existing braces must stay on. It damps out body vibrations.

I can feel the difference by driving at legal speeds on public roads. My first drive after I installed the Nismo Performance Dampers in April 2013, I noticed two things: My first impression was how quiet the car had become. This made sense because with these dampers, the micro-vibrations and road noise were being damped, therefore it transmitted less noise into the cabin.

The second thing I noted was the increased comfort. My GT-R's ride was rather stiff after installing Nismo suspension bushings. The car would jump a bit over uneven road surfaces. But with the Nismo Performance Dampers installed, the suspension was able to dampen the shockwaves from uneven road surfaces. The result is a very smooth and controlled 'glide' over bumps. With less vibrations going through the car, the handling felt much more precise, the car felt planted, and less corrective steering was needed.


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

The reason i have not posted on here is that we are obviously selling these, (and have done before posting up, as they been available for nearly 12months)

i don't wish to enter in conversations on a part we are selling

MINES also do their own versions as well (which are more expensive than Nismo)

best way to go is by user feedback.


----------



## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

narface said:


> I can feel the difference by driving at legal speeds on public roads.


Been on track with them at all? If so, what are they like when pressing on and near grip limit?


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

narface said:


> The second thing I noted was the increased comfort. My GT-R's ride was rather stiff after installing Nismo suspension bushings. The car would jump a bit over uneven road surfaces. But with the Nismo Performance Dampers installed, the suspension was able to dampen the shockwaves from uneven road surfaces. The result is a very smooth and controlled 'glide' over bumps. With less vibrations going through the car, the handling felt much more precise, the car felt planted, and less corrective steering was needed.


Sorry but there is no way that this device would alter ride 'stiffness' as you put it. That is determined by the dampers and springs and the micro vibrations that this device allegedly dampens play no part in that. A car that skips over bumps will continue to do so with this fitted or not.

I suggest this is a placebo effect. 

TT


----------



## Sidious (Jul 14, 2006)

Sub Boy said:


> Thanks for the explanation Sidious.
> I'm still struggling to see how this is going to make a 15-20 yr old floppy chassis car by today's standards handle better.
> There are many things Nismo need to build to improve the handling of these cars before entering into the "realms of the immeasurable"


Modern cars are indeed stronger and deflect less than sports cars of the 1980s and 1990s, a stronger and stiffer frame (and linkages/bushes) will give a sharper and more responsive chassis.

However all body frames deflect/displace/vibrate more freely at their own frequencies - this is a problem or significant source of an unwanted handling characteristics of a given car.

A very stiff car will respond to input quicker, but it is likely to have higher natural frequency than a modest road/GT car. At higher speeds, the wheels will travel up and down over bumps, undulations etc at a greater frequency due to the higher speed of the car. 

If taking a bend at 100 mph over a particular surface happens to make the wheels travel up and down at the natural frequency of the chassis, the displacement/vibration is much greater and requires more concentration and quicker corrections on the steering wheel. 

We all many comments of high speed stability and high speed traction/grip varies between car to car, even if they are relatively the same in weight and layout.

If you can damp some of this out of the chassis, the driver wont experience as much of this unnerving effect and more importantly improves confidence and for the fast/racing driver lessens the amount of 'false' steering corrections.


----------



## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Are there any cheaper alternatives to Nismo?

I'm sure that their quality is great but with slightly less premium pricing I can see more people willing to take a punt.


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Cris said:


> Are there any cheaper alternatives to Nismo?
> 
> I'm sure thst there quality is great but with slightly less premium pricing I can see more people willing to take a punt.


MINES do their own version

but its more than Nismo


----------



## CabbageMS (Feb 8, 2011)

Cris said:


> Are there any cheaper alternatives to Nismo?
> 
> I'm sure that their quality is great but with slightly less premium pricing I can see more people willing to take a punt.


this ^

They sound cool.


----------



## leodspider (Oct 19, 2014)

I actully just received my set, currently looking for clearer instructions, but no luck atm. So if anyone in Europe or jp have fitted them to a R34 Gtr please give me a shout as the Japanese instructions are my that clear


----------



## leodspider (Oct 19, 2014)

I actully just received my set, currently looking for clearer instructions, but no luck atm. So if anyone in Europe or jp have fitted them to a R34 Gtr please 
ive me a shout as the Japanese instructions are my that clear


----------



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Where did you buy yours from Leo?


----------



## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

Newera supplied along with a host of other items.

cannot ship them via air as its considered a liquid (due to the fluid in them)

Leo -il see what we can do for you.


----------



## leodspider (Oct 19, 2014)

Hey younnes , I got them from new era. Will hopefully be installing them first week of July .

Cheers Matt greatly appreciated , send me a email if you manage to find clearer instructions


----------



## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Think mine went on no issues.


----------



## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

LOL....you guy's....

:chuckle:


I'd forgotten about this fantastic and essential piece of tuning hardware!!! Makes me think of..










every time I think about it. :chuckle:


Priceless..


TT


----------

