# MAPPING



## MIKEGTR (Jul 8, 2005)

Was just reading another thread regarding mapping and peoples preferances for live mapping at say Brunters for example and started thinking about some of peoples comments regarding wngine safety.

The 'mapped on the road' comments always confuse me, as while I appreciate for optimum performance this is the best way, surely for safety Rolling Road is better, as it has already been mapped in hotter conditions than it is ever likely to see out on the road. Just wondered what other people thought.


----------



## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

I'd be more worried about my personal & licence safety mapping on the road...

For example, high load mapping, big boost, 4th gear, its well into double the national speed limit terratory & silly acceleration..

For optimum performance, the road isn't the best way, engine dyno is the best way (although not the most convenient) because of the ability to hold a car infinately in any load zone. Plus if something isn't working, or you want to try a couple of turbo's for spool up characteristics its easy 

Cost wise & practicality isn't the best though.


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

You never gonna get the same conditions on the dyno as you will on the road.

Needs road/brunters final adjustments.

You REALLY think Keith Cowies car was live mapped at Brunters for any other reason but it being the best way?

Trust me, high revs top gear mapping on the road isnt done in the middle of the bloody day...

But ive heard of countles 190mph 4am mapping sesions over the years from god knows how many different mappers...


----------



## MIKEGTR (Jul 8, 2005)

> Trust me, high revs top gear mapping on the road isnt done in the middle of the bloody day


 And thats my point!! Say he was running mid day at TOTB flat out in 90 degrees heat, how would his car cope when it has been mapped for optimum performance on a colder day.

As i said i appreciate that brunters is better to tweek the final set up and get more power, but surely for reliability RR has to be better, as ambiant temps would surley be higher


----------



## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

SteveN said:


> You never gonna get the same conditions on the dyno as you will on the road.
> 
> Needs road/brunters final adjustments.
> 
> ...


No, I agree, hence why maps get tweaked once back in the car. But, if live mapping was the be all & end all, every single competition engine would be live mapped, whereas in reality virtually none are, because you don't have the levels of control that you do in a dyno room..

I don't doubt there is loads of late night mapping sessions done, but again, too many variables, personally I wouldn't want to do it, there are FAR too many risks involved in doing 190mph down the M1 in the middle of the night.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Most competition engines ARE live mapped. They get the near optimum settings done on a dyno, then the fine tuning is done during qualifying or in the case of F1, even during the race. You would never be able to simulate induction air ram, for example on a dyno, let alone replicating an intercoolers cooling effect at 170mph. 
Anyway the requirements of a fast accelerating engine are different to a static load, hence the change in dyno design to get closer to 'real' mapping characteristics.


----------



## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Didn't I say that?



> No, I agree, hence why maps get tweaked once back in the car.


On that basis, you could argue that every car is in essence 'live mapped' because it's adjusted once in the car???

However, they ar not live mapped from scratch, 90-95% of it is done on an engine dyno, that was the point I was making


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Sorry Chris, just picked up your comment on competition engines being dyno mapped. Fully agree with last post.


----------



## Jim27 (Jul 1, 2004)

MIKEGTR said:


> surely for safety Rolling Road is better, as it has already been mapped in hotter conditions than it is ever likely to see out on the road.


Nope - if it's a hot day on the rolling road then it's worse, becuase everyday cold air flow is denser - so if you map it on a hot rolling road and then take it out on a cool day you'll be at a higher risk of running lean, cos for the same volume of air you'll have more oxygen molecules (as it's denser when cold).

If that makes sense...?


----------



## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Jim27 said:


> Nope - if it's a hot day on the rolling road then it's worse, becuase everyday cold air flow is denser - so if you map it on a hot rolling road and then take it out on a cool day you'll be at a higher risk of running lean, cos for the same volume of air you'll have more oxygen molecules (as it's denser when cold).
> 
> If that makes sense...?


Yes, if it is safe to assume your charge temperature isnt going to change that much given the change in ambient air temp.

Road tweeking is essential to get the best driveability and optimum performance. The difference between dyno mapping vs mapping on a rolling road is a difficult one. Ultimately a dyno allows better control of parameters to map but the expense is far greater than a rolling road tune.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Jim27 said:


> Nope - if it's a hot day on the rolling road then it's worse, becuase everyday cold air flow is denser - so if you map it on a hot rolling road and then take it out on a cool day you'll be at a higher risk of running lean, cos for the same volume of air you'll have more oxygen molecules (as it's denser when cold).
> 
> If that makes sense...?


Not strictly true, any engine management system should be able to compensate for changing adiabatic conditions.


----------



## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

NISFAN said:


> Not strictly true, any engine management system should be able to compensate for changing adiabatic conditions.


Wouldnt it be easier to say "deal with a change in atmospheric temperature" or "change in fluid properties", seeing as "adiabatic" actually refers to a process which is completed without the loss or gain of heat energy or change in entropy.

The combustion process within an IC engine cant really be regarded as an adiabatic system since an adiabatic system must either be insulated from its surroundings to prevent heat transfer or at the same temp as its surroundings to create no driving force for heat transfer as the temp gradient is zero. Neither of these can be applied to an engine in a car.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Well here we go again...but I am biased somewhat.

Steve,

so would you know by live mapping if your cams were in 
the best place for max torque and power band spread? 

What about if we retard the inlet cam a little and advance the exhaust 
cam a little what will that do to the power spread? 

What about the bhp/torque output if you run a little richer mid-range 
before leaning out top end? 

What about running a little lower boost but more ignition timing will that 
help with spool up and lower exhaust gas temp?

I can go on forever.

Carefully mapping,changing the ramp rate on the Power runs,
using the load and speed settings on a dyno will map a car
very well maybe use a little of the closed loop lambda control 
to sort out cruise fuelling and a little logging of AFR to ensure
top speed fuelling is okay.

Jim as Nisfan has said a properly set up ECU will compensate 
for Inlet temp changes,you cant look at the weather see 
it,s going to be hot today and think l better not use my car 
as it was mapped at a different temp than today can you!

Thats why you can use a airflow on a car without a inlet 
temp sensor , the AFM measures air density so it compensates
for hot or colder inlet temps. If you are mapping using a 
MAP sensor system like F-con you havecompensations for 
inlet temp ( using a sensor ) when the inlet temp gets 
hot you need less fuel and less ignition timing. 

It is easy to map for full throttle on a runway, but l feel
the part throttle/low rpm mapping is where the work is , this
is where you spend most of your time driving and if you car
is very sharp and responsive you will find that the owner is
a vary happy driver, nothing worse than a car that hick up,s 
has flat spots at low rpm even if it shows big bhp figures
at 100% throttle.


over and out, waiting for the flames to burn me......

Mark


----------



## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

From what I understand, Keith's car was mapped at brunters because Rod does not believe in Dynos. It's just one example. Stunning car and not taking anything away from the owner/builder.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't Ronnie, Mario, Andy, Tim, Gary etc cars mapped on dyno's???

PS. Good post Mark!


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

This is quite a debate  

If you all sit back and think about it...........where was the fastest European Skyline mapped ? Brunters..............

What is it ? The fastest Skyline GTR in Europe..........

Who built it ? Rod Bell

Who Mapped it ? Mark Shead

Apart from the Sumo car, can anyone even come close to touching it ? NO

I think the benefits of Live mapping are there to see...............simple as. 

I for one wouldnt like someone to map any car of mine on a dyno inside a warehouse, and then pop out on a cold night for a blast and the car explodes into itself because the dense air has made it run leaner than a Half pound of Bacon  

Mark Shead live mapped this car like this for a reason............that reason was to have this car be unbeatable to date.........and it is.....does anyone want to pick up the phone and tell him that Dyno mapping this car will be better than what he has done so far on the runway?  

Howsie - You are correct in what you have said above.......BUT.....

Ronnies car has melted pistons on a few occasions unfortunately. 
Mario although an amazingly obscene car, and deserving all credit, has blown a few engines. 
The only one one the list that does not use Nitrous is Gary.

Plus Keiths car is miles faster at 160 mph than anyone in the UK and only 7.7mph behind Mario to date, with bigger engine spec still to come.....

I dont think there can be any argument as to the engine Rod has built so far......faultless and the fastest.......maybe Mark Shead and Rod have got it all wrong though  I Love debates like this, they really get all the good points across and the conversation flowing. Great thread  

Nuff said :smokin:


----------



## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Micheal, you are a right numpty some times.  Barring the previous fastest GT-R in the Europe, a 'heavy' R34, live mapping is the best way... until the next time. There is hardly enough history IMHO to prove that live mapping is the way to go... or makes that much difference.


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Howsie said:


> Micheal, you are a right numpty some times.  Barring the previous fastest GT-R in the Europe, a 'heavy' R34, live mapping is the best way... until the next time. There is hardly enough history IMHO to prove that live mapping is the way to go... or makes that much difference.


Possibly correct mate, i guess it remains to be seen in the long term. But current results from Rod and Mark Shead, and the fatalities of other cars speak volumes.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

*Mapping on the road or on a "dyno" mmmmm*

yeah but all the cars you have quoted a Full throttle cars not used on the road. Thats where most cars are driven arent they.....

mmmm Garys car is the only that doesnt use Nitrous , Andy b cars never used the gas nor did Project X. Ronnie car has only "melted" 1 
set of pistons Not a few sets I should know shouldnt I! , but this wasnt due to mapping but a fault fuel pump this could happen to anyone even the big boys.

We could go on for ever with this debate , But yes it is a good debate I will always stand by mapping on a dyno.

Yeah hats off to kieth fair play he has raised the game well done but I am sure a lot of people on here will take there hats off to Tim Webster not a bad run 9.95 @ 150mph but it was mapped on a dyno so it isnt any good...;-)
and he drove the old girl home ...now thats cool.  

I think we all can sit on this site and say ya and na to this and that.....
but I think we all need to understand tuning for full throttle and tuning for driveabilty 2 different things.

what for the replies with baited breath.........


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Maybe so.....

But regardless of what car did or didnt have Nos, or how many sets of pistons Ronnie has melted, i have yet to see an RB car have ANY of the problems mentioned above, and they are ALL live mapped. Regardless of whether as you state, its tuned for "full throttle OR tuned for driveability". 

If Rod Bell doesnt build Skylines for both these purposes please correct me someone........but has he had any known problem that the above cars have ?

But of course it cant possibly be in the way they are built / mapped.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

wonder if the rebuilds every 1000 miles or so makes a difference........  

We can go on for ever this also me and you Micheal have had our difference so we may be biased....  

We could start quoting cars that have had engine troubles had they been mapped live would off they not had trouble maybe maybe not! mmmm I wonder! 

This debate is cool beats going to be with the other half........


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> wonder if the rebuilds every 1000 miles or so makes a difference........
> 
> We can go on for ever this also me and you Micheal have had our difference so we may be biased....
> 
> ...


If all Rods customers came back for a rebuild every 1000 miles i think he would be living in St.Tropez by now. 

PS.....How many miles does Ronnies car do between events ?


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Thought we was talking about Kieths car not normal roads car that Rods has built.

Btw I havent got anything agaisnt Rod he was nearly my brother in law once, worked for me also and we supply each other a huge amount of spares and tuning parts.

I think it has done over 8000 k from memory. But we are having a look at the motor at the mo.


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Keiths car is a normal road car, albeit less of the creature comforts. 

I loved it when we pulled into the Shell station in Dundee, stuck in £20 of Optimax and went for a blast back up the road.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

okay then I rest my case.... but l think we all know what a road car means. Project X had a tax disc in the window but l wouldnt drive it that far.

BTW thought this thread was about mapping!

anyway I had enough of the nagging time for my bed. need to get ready to map some cars tomoz.......brunters or my dyno.......mmmm


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> okay then I rest my case.... but i think we all know what a road car means. Project X had a tax disc in the window but i wouldnt drive it that far.
> 
> BTW thought this thread was about mapping!


Back to the mapping debate.........i am off to bed , i only planned on making one post


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

MichaelG said:


> Ronnies car has melted pistons on a few occasions unfortunately.


Fuel pump failure. Data logs showed a loss of fuel pressure during a top speed run.

Heres a prediction... At some point, keiths car WILL fire its guts all over the tarmac, where or when we dont know, or on that note if we'll even be told...

Finally, as for this "Keiths is a road car" thing, thats laughable in my opinion. Tax disc and number plates do not make a road car, anymore than feathers up your butt make you a chicken.

Tim's R34 is a road car.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Hi ya dan0h ....so is it brunters or the dyno room tomoz!


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> Hi ya dan0h ....so is it brunters or the dyno room tomoz!


Well I guess Nismo, TRD, Tomei and just about every tuner on the planet is doing it wrong then, perhaps we should take a drive upto brunters and try some mapping tomorrow eh? Then we could try and work out on the drive back if we really did get that last 10 lb/ft out of the car by tweaking the inlet cam half a degree back!


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

DanOh - On a final passing note.......i see your signature is full of cars mapped. But tell me how many of these cars have come close to what Keiths car has achieved.......but like i said earlier........its not in the mapping eh.........

Am sure Mark Shead would love to know hes doing it the "wrong way"  

Bed for me now......this could go on forever.


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

MichaelG said:


> DanOh - On a final passing note.......i see your signature is full of cars mapped. But tell me how many of these cars have come close to what Keiths car has achieved.......but like i said earlier........its not in the mapping eh.........
> 
> Bed for me now......this could go on forever.


LOL ... What an amusingly ill informed comment, I've never had the opportunity to map a car such a keiths (out and out Drag car), except for Project X, and sadly that was never driven particularly well (poor Mark had only driven it once and never on a drag strip until he got bundled into it at the pod, and Lisa hadnt enough wheel time in it either to unleash what was undoubtedly the most powerful RB in the UK). The rest of those cars are road cars, they start and run from cold, have interiors and aircon, run as economically as can be expected, and generally perform without glitch or hiccup under every driving situation that can be thrown at them. Full load mapping is childs-play, try mapping a multi-throttle car with big cams for road use on a MAP sensor and you'll see that its a damn sight harder than an out and out drag car - mapping is not a difficult task, making a driveable road car is the challenge.

Furthermore, I'd love to see Keiths budget for his car, bearing in mind that speed is merely money. One day when we have a customer that actually wants to build a dedicated DRAG car, then I have no doubt that we will issue forth with another repeated winner, just as Ronnies, Tims and Davids cars have become kings of the REAL road cars...

And actually, if you take Tims car weight into consideration (1650kg+), and the fact that its quite a small turbo, and it drives to the events and back - its actually a far greater achievement than some one-night-stand style RB-Drag machine. But that, is my opinion. What do I know? I've only been doing this 9 years.


----------



## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

dan0h said:


> Heres a prediction... At some point, keiths car WILL fire its guts all over the tarmac, where or when we dont know, or on that note if we'll even be told...


dan0h

What kind of fcuking post is that to put up about my car on a public forum


----------



## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

OOps sorry missed Keiths post.......

Quote "Keiths car is a normal road car, albeit less of the creature comforts."

Err No. God, I didnt know all the cars came with Lexan windows, FRP panels , handbrake Attessa + two twacking great turbos with more lag and the time it takes to fill in a tax return. That is not a road car.

Danoh : this part I particularly appreciate ;

Quote "Production mapper of the Supercharged Ariel Atom."

nice. two words "production mapper"


----------



## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Mapping a 'competition' car is a lot easier than a road car IMO, part throttle mapping is almost non existant, poor idle etc because everything is concentrated on the full throttle parts.

All you have to do is look at some of the GEMS/MoTec maps some of the rally boys have..

I still stick with the dyno theory, if it's right for the best/most funded race teams in the world, then it would be fine for me


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Kieth,

wow chillout :smokin:  

what gets my hair up there are a lot of people that think 
they know better , engines go "bang ", have trouble what
ever but the start of the thread was about road/live
mapping against mapping on the dyno , it then got twisted 
around to a thread about how many of the car have
gone "bang" as thay where mapped on a dyno. 

Modern dyno rooms are a little different than a dyno in
a workshop with a small fan , what about a set of fans
producing 80/100 mph wind speed this is not just your
average workshop remember. 

I was only putting across my idea,s as an reply and
I was blown out of the water. WHY! 

read and have a think! about what a dyno does?

Dyno,s dont work in a short sentence! so all the car 
builders,engine builders etc etc in the world are wrong! 
We have had numerous engine builders i.e Will Gollop,
Dave Hill from IES to name a few using our dyno so that
does say or mean anything? I let you make your mind up.


I think everyone doesnt see the point of a dyno,it is a development 
tool in our eyes which is also good for measuring bhp/torque. Try this
try that , does this work or not , what about if we use this with that?
Can you measure that on the road/track I dont think so.

As l have said Keith fair play in what you have done? I know 
you pay for all your work on the car at RB , I even brought 
a T-shirt to help you out withthe running costs , you even said 
to me that you was starting to find it hard to keep finding 
the money to keep running the car, thats why our drag 
cars is under a cover outside better things to spend 
our money on. Like track cars..... :smokin: 

Fair play to all you Sweaty Scots sticking up for each other
some one has to......  

change the old girl into a track car and come and have a play
your have more fun honest! That what we are doing!

Everyone has there own views , but l think it will never be right
for everyone?


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

dan0h said:


> LOL ... What an amusingly ill informed comment, I've never had the opportunity to map a car such a keiths (out and out Drag car), except for Project X,


I wonder why, and look what thats achieved eh..... 

[/QUOTE=dan0h]Furthermore, I'd love to see Keiths budget for his car, bearing in mind that speed is merely money. One day when we have a customer that actually wants to build a dedicated DRAG car, then I have no doubt that we will issue forth with another repeated winner, just as Ronnies, Tims and Davids cars have become kings of the REAL road cars...[/QUOTE] 
People go to who gives the best service, and when Mark Shead can map the fastest GTR in Europe and RELIABLY, oh......and not to mention the fastest Cosworth in the UK.......its not hard to see where the fastest RB's will be coming from in the Future.....

[/QUOTE=dan0h] And actually, if you take Tims car weight into consideration (1650kg+), and the fact that its quite a small turbo, and it drives to the events and back - its actually a far greater achievement than some one-night-stand style RB-Drag machine. But that, is my opinion. What do I know? I've only been doing this 9 years.[/QUOTE]

Oh you mean like Hughs car ?? But then again 12k miles a year, maybe thats not a daily driver either eh ?  I mean he only maps it on the road and uses it to work and back every day, OH and its the same car coincidentally an R34 !  

You have been mapping for 9 years, how long has Rod Bell been working on RBs please ? 

And no offence intended mate, but how far have you progressed compared to Rod in the last few years ? .........I will eat my sweaty scottish boxer shorts the day that a UK Rolling Roaded car has better stats than a Live Mapped Mark Shead / RB Motorsport built RB.   

Like i said.......Mark Shead only mapped THE FASTEST GTR IN EUROPE.....FACT AND THE FASTEST COSWORTH IN THE UK but......hey.......i am just an RB Motorsport fan......what do i know......  

No offence intended btw. All in the name of good back and forth banter. 

PS......Edited cos i still cant get my fookin "quotes" to work as is plain to see.....


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Micheal,

I think we have moved away from the original thread , But I said what i needed to say in my last reply.

Fair play to Mark Shead wicked.

Why dont you ask Rod how longs he has been mapping?

Mark


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

Michael,

When hughs car has gone as fast as Tims, then I'd take it seriously as a comparison, infact talking of similarities between Hughs and Tims R34's, let us recall who used to work on that car, and who works on it now? - hence it now has pulled a high 9 in FULL road trim (plus Tims three DVD screens!), instead of the 11's it used too, no disrespect to any tuner, but the facts now speak for themselves.

As for Hughs car alone, I have never yet seen it perform to a level that I would consider appropriate for its specification - for whatever reasons, thus far it has failed to break the 10's hasnt it?, therefor it is no comparison to Tims car, which by far and away would destroy it on a drag strip, with 200cc less capacity. Hughs car is obviously well built, but hasnt delivered what I would call appropriate performance.

I dont care how long Rod has been building RB's or mapping. I map cars all day, every single working day, every single car is honed to its ideals, there is no generic map sharing or swapping. I've seen enough of "Other" tuners maps to form my own opinions, and I have learnt the hard way in the past by doing things wrong - I am after all, a human being. I've seen it all at some time or another, Motec, Gems, AEM, Haltech, Apexi, HKS, Hondata, Emerald to name but a few, as well as reverse engineering SAAB's own Trionic management system - I didnt just walk into this job yesterday you know. If you honestly believe that road/track mapping is the way forwards, more power to you. I know its NOT the case.

As for "How far we've come compared to Rod" in the last year, it depends how high up the ladder you are when you take your first step on it, progress in the top five rungs isnt as obvious as walking the first twenty steps.


Keith,

Have calm, the comment is no reflection upon the quality of your vehicle, or the engine build. However, with VE's as high as they are on that engine, you have to expect that at some point a terminal mechanical failure may occur. I certainly wouldnt wish it upon you, infact quite the opposite as you must work your ass off to pay for all that work with Rod, I hope you never have to experience such a failure, it is though a very real chance when you push a 2.6/2.7 to that sort of level, anyone that thinks otherwise is very mis-informed.


Mark has hit the nail on the head this actually comes down to something very simple and purile, if I were a Scot you'd be siding with me - but I'm very english, so you just love to hate me  Thats how its always been, and it always will. As you say though Michael, its all just banter... If the way you're doing things works for you - stick with it.


----------



## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Yikes ... what a mad post   

Anyway back to the original post and a point that so far seems to have been missed ... or perhaps not ..

It doesnt matter if its mapped on a road or a dyno .... what matters is who is mapping it.

You can have the best setup in the world but it doesnt mean you can map worth shit, that takes time, knowledege and experiance.

Its funny I remember us all having a bitch at Apexi and HKS for not supplying software to map there FCon and PFC unit, there answer was simple.

"We dont wish everyone to start mapping there own cars, having faliures and blaming our units."

Its a fair point, it seems like everyone is now a "mapper" and as Danoh, Rod, Mr Shead and others will tell you ..... theres a good bit more to it than buying yourself a wideband and blasting it up and down the road a few times :smokin:


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

I am not just butting in here. I have only just read this post.
But my 32 would of never of done what it did without dan0h's top mapping on the dyno!!This car should of gone bang 6 months before it hit the middle 10's!!
And mark my words there is no where else that i would bring the Lemon to. Because it will be sorted! And trust me when i say that the Lemon will be in Top Form come the Jap show in October :smokin: 

Just want to say and i know you all think i am taking the **** BUT  

As long as i have Abbey Motorsport and the Dynopack behind me i will not go wrong FACT.....   


Mr Begley


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*As*

I have said before.
If you want a reasonable building job done you employ a jobbing builder.
If you want an excellent building job done you employ a brickie for the brickwork,a plasterer for the plastering ,a plumber for the plumbing, a decorator for the decorating etc etc etc.

The same applies to the motor trade. I am afraid the days of the jack of all trades are dissappearing. Shame but fact of life.


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

tonysoprano said:


> I have said before.
> If you want a reasonable building job done you employ a jobbing builder.
> If you want an excellent building job done you employ a brickie for the brickwork,a plasterer for the plastering ,a plumber for the plumbing, a decorator for the decorating etc etc etc.
> 
> The same applies to the motor trade. I am afraid the days of the jack of all trades are dissappearing. Shame but fact of life.


Just the job hit the nail on the head..


----------



## Joe GSM (Dec 11, 2003)

hope this helps . my car had a few probs so i set all my monitoring eqipment on the car and went out on the road. I then whent out on to the road and made a note of the fuel maps and where i thought i had a few rich spots and driverbility problems. i then went on to the dyno at abbeys and told dan where the problems were and at the rpm site and they equeled the same on the dyno as it did on the road,hope this helps , but do not confuse the dyno pack with a rolling road, a rolling road isnt as good regards joe. ps im not starting another debate about rolling roads.


----------



## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

Funny how the people that actually map cars, and posting on this thread appear to be in the wrong.

Mapping for full power is relatively easy, just look at a top fuel drag car. The mapping consists of, cram as much nitro in as possible, set the ignition to "about there" fixed in a single position, light the touch paper and wait 5 seconds.

Mapping for transients at light load, coming in and out of idle, on and off overrun, closed loop stoich light load to full power and so on and so forth. Trying to recreate some situations that the driver may only use once, is difficult, but when faced with those circumstances, you want the car to perform properly, and not just have the excuse "oh well you didn't drive it like that when we mapped it".

Checking things like boost control, and temperature related effects is often best finished on the road, to ensure you are neither too close to the edge (or past it) or too conservative.

Big can of worms, and you never stop learning.

Paul


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> Micheal,
> 
> I think we have moved away from the original thread , But I said what i needed to say in my last reply.
> 
> ...


Rod doesnt map cars, you should know that.   

Like Crail Loser has said, it matters WHO is mapping it.......and am afraid dan0h that crunch coming to crunch you dont have a patch on Mark Shead......whether you like it or not......and he uses the road. When you surpass his achievements, let us all know, and i will be the first to pat you on the back if its done on a RR.


----------



## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

How many cars have you mapped Michael?


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Pavlo said:


> How many cars have you mapped Michael?


None, but where do you see me claiming to be a mapper ?

I go by factual results from the top mapper. That should be enough.


----------



## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

MichaelG said:


> Like Crail Loser has said, it matters WHO is mapping it.......and am afraid dan0h that crunch coming to crunch you dont have a patch on Mark Shead......whether you like it or not......and he uses the road


Michael,

I can understand that you liked your little ride in Keith's car (which, make no mistake, is awesome), but why are you casting doubts on the abilities of others when you clearly have so little knowledge of the subject you're talking about?

It only serves to make you look foolish.

Phil


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

Micheal,

Define a "good" and "bad" mapper, fun for me though it is taking insults from someone of such obviously high technical credibility that they cannot even use the forums quote function correctly, when it is more than a single sentence, I would like to know how you define what is good and bad mapping... Surely if you've never been a mapper, then you wouldnt know what was good or bad?

Oh, and I have nothing to prove, if you knew how many road cars out there were mapped by me, you'd realise that. I dont claim to be any kind of super-mapper, I merely do the best I can to make the most useful, driveable cars for whatever their chosen application. When the chance presents itself to make an out and out drag car, I shall only try my best at that - which really, is all anyone can do, and I'll be glad to do that - because its a damn sight easier than making a road car drive beautifully.

Clearly though, you want to make this personal - you are making that quite obvious, so I want to understand your definitions of "good" and "bad" mapping, so that in this democratic society I can defend against you're obviously highly technically grounded accusations of incapability on my part.


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

Micheal, as an additional note (20 minute editing limit has expired on my original post so I have had to make this new post)...

Nearly everything I work on is a road car that has to drive beautifully, and is capable of taking top speed, drag and circuit work all in its stride without a remap, yet still use pump fuel and return a reasonable MPG figure where possible. Thats the real mapping challenge, however, having never mapped a car in your life you wouldnt know this - yet you still see fit to comment upon it. Furthermore, the challenge of mapping Manifold pressure based multi-throttle engines is always one that will require a good deal of work, but again, not something a balls-out drag engine mapper need worry about.

Let me hear the facts that you believe make me a bad mapper Micheal, please, do share, and if any of them are fair, I would be the first to put my hands up and say I screwed up. Because saying I am a worse mapper than Mr. X, Mr. Y or Mr. Z, just because our customer base doesnt include a 9.3 second drag car, is really rather hilarious.


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

A good or bad mapper?

My old ecu had an eprom which had a GT2835 lable on it.. i dunno who mapped it, but low mid drivabilty was not so good

Since changing to a mines stage 1 ecu the car is giving me more mpg, feels much more responsive at low to mid range.

Could I be imagining this? ... I certain my new ecu is 100% improvement over my old one.


----------



## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

An entertaining read. Michael, you're losing the argument here, IMHO!

What I've seen of Garage Saurus in Japan, who regularly make 8.5 Second quarter Skylines for the Jap market and have been tuning RB26's since 1990 (They also developed the T88 turbo for Trust amongst many other things) - they use a rolling road too.... Go figure


----------



## cokey (Sep 11, 2003)

keith said:


> dan0h
> 
> What kind of fcuking post is that to put up about my car on a public forum


Im with keith on this !

Danoh
bad call mate !
You cant ever justify that post !
It was a horrible thing to say to anyone !!!
As You know the cost involved !

MICHEAL Shut the fu*k up will you !! Rod does live mapping ! Its one of the many things he does well !

You come across as Keith's favourite sheep  
And to my knowledge he is not into live-stock , more plumbing based.  
your giving us stick together jocks a bad name !

Kieth is more than capable of fighting his corner and has done so on many occasions !!

Danoh mate you have my utmost respect for what you do, based on the results you have produced. And declaring yourself more english than english makes No difference to me !
just makes me think......
You may be watching TOO MUCH cricket ?
Never mind beating the P.OME,s {prisoners of mother england}
Beat the Punka-wallahs grandchildren at the game you taught them !!!
"time to ponder on the extreme outfield"  
and I will eat my Kilt !  
Historically,May I mention britain's county champions- Fruchie which is not in a county !

I bought an ecu from a known tuner on this forum, well one of his close customers- video footage of the run is on here !
That will be you Gazzer  
Realising I bought the Ecu and not its contents, Which was not locked in any of the possible ways! 
It was mapped for another engine. I had no second thoughts in re-enitialising it !
As I intended to have it mapped to my own engine and spec.

Also I did not think it was for me to let opposing tuners compare or veiw the map on this Ecu !
Purely out of Common courtesy !

Which leaves me totally fu8ked for a choice of mapper for my new motor !
Having read this post........

Looks like I need to have Danoh do the initial mapping with cam timing tweeks on the Dyno-pack etc.

Then have Rod tweak it for the real world.

Then have Mark from Mad fly to a track I have hired to perfect this map for Wide open throttle applications in the other world in relative saftey !

Then run it by Gt Art for confirmation.

Christ by the time I have done all that I will have spent more sorting out the mapping than it cost to buy the ****i*g thing !! Blow it up twice and build the engine I have now !!!

So should I put my car up for defining this thread with back to back Dyno figures from the best attempts from the afore-mentioned tuners ???????

I would'nt do that to Any car !! Even yours.

But I want the Best out of my car in all sorts of conditions !
As we all do - 
so what is the answer ??
All of the above plus Datalogit, cause I need to comprehend this shit !
and would like to know which miniscule changes were worth a Grand or more !!
Streuth !!

At least rocket science was straight forward- you just nicked it from the nazis if you were quick    

Flame away those that read mags.
Soz in late and ranting.
-- oh and steveN Cossies Suck !

Cokey


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Cokey,

LMAO......what you been drinking I need some.....

But you have said some very good points. 

Micheal,




> Rod doesnt map cars, you should know that.


 I presume this is a tongue in cheek quote. 


Also


> Nearly everything I work on is a road car that has to drive beautifully, and is capable of taking top speed, drag and circuit work all in its stride without a remap, yet still use pump fuel and return a reasonable MPG figure where possible. Thats the real mapping challenge, however, having never mapped a car in your life you wouldnt know this - yet you still see fit to comment upon it. Furthermore, the challenge of mapping Manifold pressure based multi-throttle engines is always one that will require a good deal of work, but again, not something a balls-out drag engine mapper need worry about.


 I am a very fussy road tester I can drive as good and as bad as I need to ensure that cars leaving our workshop via our dyno are perfect.
Remember most people want 500+bhp cars to drive like they just driven from the factory with AFM fitted. And lf you understood mappping better your understand the difference between mapping with AFM or a Map sensor with the added equation of a set of multi throttle bodies thrown in!  


Time for a a ride on my bike which reminds me we must mod the dyno to take bike because my KTM,s map is not very good.......maybe it was mapped on the road  



Mark


----------



## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

MichaelG said:


> Rod doesnt map cars, you should know that.
> 
> Like Crail Loser has said, it matters WHO is mapping it.......and am afraid dan0h that crunch coming to crunch you dont have a patch on Mark Shead......whether you like it or not......and he uses the road. When you surpass his achievements, let us all know, and i will be the first to pat you on the back if its done on a RR.


Just to pick up on this point...

Mark Shead maps a lot of cars - on Simon Norris's engine dyno.

(A lot of big power cars too)


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

cokey said:


> Im with keith on this !
> 
> Danoh
> bad call mate !
> ...


Cokey,

As I have explained in another post, I certainly do not WISH it upon keith, quite the opposite, however all involved have to accept that with a Volumetric efficiency as high as his engine - a failure is actually quite likely. But I clarify again, I certainly DO NOT wish it upon him, I hope for his sake that it holds together for as long is needed... It is merely a reference to the fact that a drag RB26, rather like life, is a delicate balance.


----------



## weka (Jul 3, 2001)

MichaelG said:


> Mark Shead......whether you like it or not......and he uses the road.


Just wondering do RB Motorsport have a dyno/RR? If they don't, is that why Mark Shead use the road to map cars?


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

weka said:


> Just wondering do RB Motorsport have a dyno/RR? If they don't, is that why Mark Shead use the road to map cars?


That is a very good question weka...


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

I'm currently hiding in my corner of the field of sheep......  but i would imagine that Mark Shead uses a RR because he thinks it gives the best results IMHO. 

As far as i am aware RB Motorsport dont have a Rolling Road. 

Yes mark it was meant tongue in cheek. 

Back to my corner of the field now 

PS....I thought this was being kept as good banter, and dan0h you seem to be spitting nails.


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

MichaelG said:


> PS....I thought this was being kept as good banter, and dan0h you seem to be spitting nails.


When you make it a personal attack and basically tell me that I am no good at my job, which I have been doing for a long time with near as damnit 100% success, on road and race cars - obviously I am going to take it personally, as I dont see why I should take flak from someone that is clearly just a flag-waver with no real idea what they are talking about.

I have silenced you on the issue with Hughs car vs. Tims, everyone else is basically telling you that you are loosing on the entire RR/Track mapping thing (which was obvious from minute one, as anyone with half a clue about tuning cars realises that mapping needs to be done in a controlled environment, be it engine/chassis dyno or rolling road). So now you've taken to dodging the points at hand and trying to make it seem as though I am angry over nothing.

Furthermore, as yet I am still waiting for you to explain why I am no good as a mapper...? So please Micheal, once again, do tell.


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

NISFAN said:


> Not strictly true, any engine management system should be able to compensate for changing adiabatic conditions.


so why dont they make a dyno cell with air con, that way you can vary the temps from 14 deg cool to 30 degrees..

I had a quick look at abbeys dyno, that fitted with a heavy duty aircon system would surely allow you to vary the temps.


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

GTR-Zilla said:


> so why dont they make a dyno cell with air con, that way you can vary the temps from 14 deg cool to 30 degrees..


££££ - Aircon units of the size and capacity needed for the volumes of air that are moved in the dyno cell are a LOT of money.


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 2, 2005)

*Mapping*

That’s what this post is about is it or is it now about drag engines / cars.

I would say in my own opinion as a tuner with a dyno who used to map on the road and then dyno after to get a power figure. That mapping on the road is too difficult and slow it also usually requires two people and most of the time would be illegal. What I have found now that I map every car on the dyno is that all my customers come back and repeatability say how amazed at the mid range response of the engine. This is particularly noticeable on cars that only come in for re-mapping. We could not achieve this on the road. Very few engines require trimming on the road any more as you become used to the varying loads for cruising. You can then map for good fuel economy for cruising and power where it’s needed. I would agree with dan0 and mark that mapping for drivability is much more complex and time consuming than mapping a drag (wot) engine. I have mapped quite a few Rb26 units now and would have to say that they require a huge amount of attention to detail to make them drive responsively on vacuum or lower boost, High boost is easy they become like a single throttle body car.

On the note of who’s car is faster I will have to say Keith performance this year is a remarkable achievement. Also Tim’s feat is of almost of equal proportion when the fact that is a real road car is taken in to the equation. 

That the veiw from little old ireland


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

When you change 75m cube of air every 1.5 secs the air-con machine would need to be as big as our workshop and cost a few 100K of pounds...


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

MichaelG said:


> Rod doesnt map cars, you should know that.
> 
> Like Crail Loser has said, it matters WHO is mapping it.......and am afraid dan0h that crunch coming to crunch you dont have a patch on Mark Shead......whether you like it or not......and he uses the road. When you surpass his achievements, let us all know, and i will be the first to pat you on the back if its done on a RR.


Dans achievments in mapping some of the countrys quickest skylines speaks for its self! 

Ok so he has not mapped keiths, that was done by mark shead, so what? does that make mark the worlds best mapper? no, i dont think so...just very good

Both are at the top of their game, let it be...

This is like a a school boy scrap, my toy is better than yours blah blah!


----------



## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

QUOTE - "so why dont they make a dyno cell with air con, that way you can vary the temps from 14 deg cool to 30 degrees.."

Ever wondered how much air flows in and out of a dyno room in 1 second ?
You would need some serious fans and a serious ammount of cooling. 

Anyhow, mapping on a cool day isnt everything unless you want to chat BHP figures with your mates in the pub, id rather have a reliable map from an experienced mapper.


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

dan0h said:


> Michael,
> 
> When hughs car has gone as fast as Tims, then I'd take it seriously as a comparison, infact talking of similarities between Hughs and Tims R34's, let us recall who used to work on that car, and who works on it now? - hence it now has pulled a high 9 in FULL road trim (plus Tims three DVD screens!), instead of the 11's it used too, no disrespect to any tuner, but the facts now speak for themselves.
> 
> As for Hughs car alone, I have never yet seen it perform to a level that I would consider appropriate for its specification -


Dan,

I'll think you'll find that my car ran 193.8 MPH on the high speed run at TOTB - my lowest high speed run was 191.4 MPH. I think Tim's best was 189.7, a bit less than any of my 3 speed runs.

Since engine mapping is about producing horsepower and you need horsepower to run high speed, I can say for sure my car has more power than Tim's. 

I think you might also consider that my car, unlike Tim's, does not run Nitrous or have soft sticky tyres.

I also accept that I could do better in the suspension set-up department as I agree my car is capable of a far better 1/4 mile time than it has achieved so far.

Unlike Tim, I do not compete in any other events outside TOTB, I also do not practise before the event, I just arrive and have a go. I guess my lack of 1/4 mile performance is down to my lack of any real effort to prepare for the event.

I have also, on an earlier thread, congratulated Tim on a job well done and I am also certain you played your part in his success.

As you say above the facts speak for themselves.

My car is mapped on the road. I do not deny any of the comments made by others about the ease of checking the power created on a dyno and whether a change has improved things or not. Yes it is hard to safely map a big power car on the road. 

Does my car drive well in traffic and in the mid range - absolutely.

Does a dyno torture the engine compared to driving on the road in IMHO it does. I guess there are advantages from both sides, it's just a case of picking your poison.

Hugh


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

DanOh, Do you do any final tweaking/adjustments by live mapping on the road/track after you have optimised an engine on the dynapack?


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Hugh,

I think this thread has now turned into a good debate,but l feel there are still views to be put across for both sides. 

yeah BHP will be shown in top speed , but there are to many other elements
that will be involved . Whose car has more drag due to different rear wings,
front splitters,gear ratios, wheel width even ride height will play a very 
important part in a cars top speed.

Also what was your terminal speeds in the 1/4 mile runs at TOTB?



> Does a dyno torture the engine compared to driving on the road in IMHO it does


 re the above quote , do you think you can react quickly enough while driving on the road/ old runway? Can you monitor the AFR, exhaust gas, engine noise without doing a run logging the figures pull up and have a look.

I am sure I know the answer , yes both ways when you are going for max BHP/TORQUE will be pushing the motor near to a damage threshold 1 run with a incorrect figure or compensation can cause heavy damage.

But what Dan and l are getting at is the controlled enviroment that a dyno allows you to tune under and we feel you do not have to run the car as hard for so long as you can see so much more data while in a controlled dyno enviroment no hassle with changing gears,holding the car in a straight line.

Can you actually say that you have your cams in the ideal position for best BHP/TORQUE? We have huge amounts of data from the dyno that cams need setting to ever car there is never a set figure for 1 set of cams,We have found even swinging the inlet cams 2 deg advance on tomei 260 deg cams will make a car spool up on boost 750 rpm earlier, I am sure every car will show a difference with a little time on a controlled enviroment chassis dyno.

My view you could spend months and huge amount of miles on the road or dyno tweaking here and there the ignition and fuel maps to fine tune your map,some people are lucky enough to be able to spend this time and spend the money to do this,other people cant understand how comes a car takes 3/4 hours to map on a dyno. They think ever car is the same so you can just cut and paste a map do a power run and it will be finished. All our cars are different , we use them in different ways , they are tuned in different ways but in the end the only thing we want is fast and reliable cars.

I would be the first to say Hugh if you ever was down our way the offer of free dyno time is there for you, have a few hours on the dyno and then you may see different view of dyno tuning. 

I feel you have the intelligence to put across a unbiased view in this debate,
I hope you reply to this post.

cheers.


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Rod Bell explained to me that the reason he prefers live mapping was that he had encountered cars that he had live mapped on the road/track and then when dynoed elsewhere the dyno operator had diagnosed that the car was running 12% rich at top end whereas in a real world situation on the open road it was spot on.
I do see the benefits of an engine dyno session to optimise cam timing but live mapping/datalogging on the road/track seems logically the best way to finish the map. Strapping a car down on rollers or bolting hubs to a dyno is an artificial environment so I cannot see how it can be as good or better than real world on road/track mapping but thats just my opinion based on information imparted to me.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

*detecting improvement in mapping ...*



> live mapped on the road/track and then when dynoed elsewhere the dyno operator had diagnosed that the car was running 12% rich at top end whereas in a real world situation on the open road it was spot on.


But what is the ideal AFR ratio at the top/mid range all cars are different maybe the said car likes say 13.5 AFR between 3000 and 4000 up to 50% throttle and 13.0 AFR 3000 to 4000 50% upwards throttle.But another car will
like a completely different AFR.

Also full throttle up to around 130 mph approx 11.8 AFR will be okay but about 130 mph you may need 11.0 or lower all depends on the car and spec.

There is not a 100% ideal AFR in my opinon. I asked this when we was first had the HKS F-con Pro dealership given to us My question was what is the ideal AFR on GTR,s? The answer came back what ever the said cars performs best at! I feel you need a dyno to try all these development/ R&D out not a live mapping session you will never see the difference IMHO.

What about when you get into multi map ECU,s system like Hugh,s Motec you can run a map for each gear, so in 1st gear you can get away with running a lot more ignition advance than in 5th gear through out the map , can you map a 700+ bhp car in 1st gear on the road/runway and "feel" a difference through the seat of the pants dyno, I def dont think so.

Cossycam sounds like your cars going to be a beast, cant wait to see it go.

Mark


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Mark, not a reply to your post, just my views on dyno vs road mapping.

I don't think you can say one is better than the other. A true competition car will benefit from having some dyno time to get the map 95% there (also to dial in cam timing, etc), and then would be circuit mapped to get the final fine tune, for maximum performance. The modern dyno is great, but has it's limitations, for example, the fans might blow at 100mph, but do not simulate the exact effect of a car travelling on the road. This does effect inlet pressures especially in ram air airbox systems. This is well known in the biking world. Dyno runs showed that most modern ram air superbikes were running unexplainably rich at high RPM's, but when leaned out, lost top speed when the improved power should have increased it........why?.......when tuning on the dyno the fan could not pressurise the airbox enough, and in the real world, the bike was running very slightly supercharged due to the ram air effect, hence the overfuelling.

However, most Skyline owners do not require a competition tune, i.e right on the limit. So for 98% of owners a dyno is the quickest, best option to tune thier car (read cheapest). Do you think someone that only live maps will spend hours and hours road mapping your street car to the best possible map..........I don't, because it would cost a fortune to start with. 
I would go to say that every single tuner dreams of a dyno. They cost loads, a street doesn't. You would have to do large number of dyno runs to make it pay, something the smaller specialist tuners can't cater for. It will only be these tuners that can't justify a dyno, that will tell you they not as good as the way they do it, ie. road mapping.


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Nisfan,

what a very well put post.



> I would go to say that every single tuner dreams of a dyno. They cost loads, a street doesn't. You would have to do large number of dyno runs to make it pay, something the smaller specialist tuners can't cater for. It will only be these tuners that can't justify a dyno, that will tell you they not as good as the way they do it, ie. road mapping.


 yeah agree about the bike l should know I run a couple of pretty quick tuned road bikes, run them on a dyno (dynajet inertia dyno) your notice it is a little rich but it goes okay on the road both bikes run good ram feeds in the nose of the fairing. 

The thing is no Skyline car I have seen has a 100% good sealed airbox, yes you can sort it out on a N/A car very well but these cars dont need as much air as a turbo car. We can see on the dyno when the car comes up onto boost and starts using the air under the bonnet the inlet air temp measured by a temp sensor within the dyno system your see the air temp drop due to the engine using the air up quickly and it being replaced with colder air from outside the engine bay.

We sat down for a long time before we brought our dyno , you do the figures, think of the + points the -points and then do it all again.

Once we got our dyno , I feel we never looked back, we have found out so much stuff, this part doesnt work , that car runs best at the AFR , that part is a waste of time etc etc.

What you going to do with your car when it is finished? live mapped or dyno mapped or both maybe.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

I'm coming to you to have it dyno'd, then going to play myself. As I have a fully programable race type ECU, will save the maps and compare


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Nisfan,

what make management system have you gone for? single or multi throttle bodies?


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Mark,
In my ignorance of whats involved in mapping I thought there was an optimal AFR to aim for. I still feel that for high speed mapping (over speed limit) a dyno cannot replicate the conditions of a car travelling along but agree with you that for optimising cam timing etc a dyno is the only option. 



> However, most Skyline owners do not require a competition tune, i.e right on the limit. So for 98% of owners a dyno is the quickest, best option to tune thier car (read cheapest). Do you think someone that only live maps will spend hours and hours road mapping your street car to the best possible map..........I don't, because it would cost a fortune to start with.
> I would go to say that every single tuner dreams of a dyno. They cost loads, a street doesn't. You would have to do large number of dyno runs to make it pay, something the smaller specialist tuners can't cater for. It will only be these tuners that can't justify a dyno, that will tell you they not as good as the way they do it, ie. road mapping


NISFAN,
High speed live mapping isnt cheap as Brunters charge £30ph and then there is your mappers hourly rate compared to hiring say the Norris Designs [email protected]£300 for the day and your mappers hourly rate so I dont think that dyno mapping is a cheaper option tho I know of some who have done high speed stuff on the road.
As regards every single tuner dreaming of a dyno I can assure you that is not the case. I come from years with Cosworths and the majority of the big hitters in the Ford mapping world dont have or dream of having a dyno - namely MAD (Mark Shead though he does use NDs dyno for his ultra high power/on the limit conversions), MSD in Blackpool, Karl Norris of NMS and even Ahmed Bayoo live maps cars without going near his dyno.
Good thread


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Cossycam,



> In my ignorance of whats involved in mapping I thought there was an optimal AFR to aim for.


 nope all cars are different some may like 11.0 some may like 11.2/11.4. 

You would map a car with 350 bhp diffferent to a car with 700bhp , also a car used for top speed running will be different to a car used on the circuit. 

So you cant not say 1 AFR will work with every car.


Mark


----------



## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

Hugh Keir said:


> Dan,
> 
> I'll think you'll find that my car ran 193.8 MPH on the high speed run at TOTB - my lowest high speed run was 191.4 MPH. I think Tim's best was 189.7, a bit less than any of my 3 speed runs.
> 
> ...


Hugh,

Excellent and valid points very well made sir - as with all your posts you command the highest respect. I am glad that you agree with me that with your spec - your car definately could be quicker on the 1/4 though, and thats the only real data I've seen public for your car - excellent work with top speeds obviously though, clearly it has the beans to do the job.

Rest assured when you're car gets into single figures, if it is an event I am attending, I will try to be one of the first to rush over and congratulate you. I agree with Marks offer, I'd love to have your car on the dyno, even if only so I can observe while you run it yourself.


CossyCAM,

I used to do a little tweak for driveability on the road when using Map sensor based systems (year or so ago now), but after a change of mapping tactic I no longer need too and can get the cars basically spot on. We're all learning, all of the time, but the only thing that ever used to be a hiccup was map sensor based systems. This was always an issue though, on the road or on the dyno to be honest, until I figured out a way to get the dyno to do what I wanted it to do to test for the glitch in question, it took about 2 minutes on the road. As for full load AFRs, they are consistent between road and dyno.


----------



## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Abbey M/S said:


> Nisfan,
> 
> what make management system have you gone for? single or multi throttle bodies?


P8Pro with MAP sensor, multi TB's. Think I'm going to need some help getting smooth low speed response. Should be fun.

Cossiecam,
Don't you think some tuners are a bit 'old school'? A dyno is a mapping tool, that is very difficult to do without. Even the most extreme road mappers would benefit from spending some time on the dyno to get the settings in the right ballpark. Just about every race engine is set up this way, dyno first, then road mapping. 
It's not easy to create an ideal map throughout the rev range without using a dyno, very subjective........did that run feel faster to you? 
I'm not saying road mapping is inferior to dyno mapping or vice versa, but I'll ask the question.................If Joe Bloggs is taking his stage 1 1/2 GTR to a tuner, would he be better off taking it to a 'road' or dyno mapper? 
I would say Dyno every time, at least he'll get a before after power curve for his money, and have no fear that it rained the day they road mapped it, so only got alot of wheelspin, or ran out of time so that will have to do type scenario. If you wanted a proper road map, you would have to hire Brunters for the day, and a mapper, and an accomplice. That would cost plenty. It could still rain on the day, and screw it all up. On top of all that, the throttle pickup fuel consumption, etc may still not be perfect for a road car. Not very good value for money if you ask me.


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

dan0h said:


> CossyCAM,
> 
> I used to do a little tweak for driveability on the road when using Map sensor based systems (year or so ago now), but after a change of mapping tactic I no longer need too and can get the cars basically spot on. We're all learning, all of the time, but the only thing that ever used to be a hiccup was map sensor based systems. This was always an issue though, on the road or on the dyno to be honest, until I figured out a way to get the dyno to do what I wanted it to do to test for the glitch in question, it took about 2 minutes on the road. As for full load AFRs, they are consistent between road and dyno.


I have ditched my AFMs and gone MAP (Autronic SM4) with 50mm TBs and as my car is a daily driver I want it mapped conservatively with a wide safety margin as I am not wanting too run the risk of a failure. I have in the past requested that every last bit of power be attained (talking Shonky Fords here lol) and regretted it while waiting for the recovery truck  
As regards discrepancies between live mapped AFRs and dynoed AFRs the figure of 12% difference at the top end was what I was told.


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

NISFAN said:


> Cossiecam,
> Don't you think some tuners are a bit 'old school'? A dyno is a mapping tool, that is very difficult to do without. Even the most extreme road mappers would benefit from spending some time on the dyno to get the settings in the right ballpark. Just about every race engine is set up this way, dyno first, then road mapping.


Like has been said already its not a case of one ways right and another way is wrong. On a race/competition engine I can understand the use of a dyno as screwing every last bit of power is of benefit and this means running tight safety margins but for a road car with wider safety margins an experienced live mapper can get an ideal roadcar map from talking to and reading posts from satisfied RB customers. 



NISFAN said:


> It's not easy to create an ideal map throughout the rev range without using a dyno, very subjective........did that run feel faster to you?
> I'm not saying road mapping is inferior to dyno mapping or vice versa, but I'll ask the question.................If Joe Bloggs is taking his stage 1 1/2 GTR to a tuner, would he be better off taking it to a 'road' or dyno mapper?
> I would say Dyno every time, at least he'll get a before after power curve for his money, and have no fear that it rained the day they road mapped it, so only got alot of wheelspin, or ran out of time so that will have to do type scenario..


A friend of mine had his supercharged Honda dyno mapped and it was incredibly quick but a real handful due to the power delivery so he had it live mapped and even though at a subsequent dyno session on the same dyno the car made 30hp less power it was far nicer to drive but much faster point to point on the road. 
The weather can put the Kai Bosch on a live mapping session.  



NISFAN said:


> If you wanted a proper road map, you would have to hire Brunters for the day, and a mapper, and an accomplice. That would cost plenty. It could still rain on the day, and screw it all up. On top of all that, the throttle pickup fuel consumption, etc may still not be perfect for a road car. Not very good value for money if you ask me.


Throttle response can be tailored to the car owners actual real world driving style by live mapping (something that cannot be done on a dyno) along with stratagies for fuel economy. I have noticed on runs in friends car that when cruising on the motorway we all use different throttle openings and also exiting a favourite S bend followed by a roundabout the amount of throttle used varies from driver to driver in the same car.


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Abbey M/S said:


> Hugh,
> 
> I think this thread has now turned into a good debate,but l feel there are still views to be put across for both sides.
> 
> ...


Mark,

My car ran it's standard rear wing, standard diffs, 285 section width tyres and there was no front splitter to help smooth the airflow under the car.

None of the above were helping me go any faster.

Not sure about the gearbox ratios on Tim's v my car, I checked my datalogs from TOTB last night and my engine was at 7600 RPM when I lifted off after crossing the line.

My 3 best terminal speeds on the 1/4 mile were 142 MPH, 141 MPH and 139 MPH

[/QUOTE]



Abbey M/S said:


> re the above quote , do you think you can react quickly enough while driving on the road/ old runway? Can you monitor the AFR, exhaust gas, engine noise without doing a run logging the figures pull up and have a look.



I have more than one set of displays for the Wideband Lambdas showing instant and the last 20 seconds worth of AFR shown against the target AFR and exhaust gas temperature displayed on my laptop screen.

I use headphones with a filtered knock output. The two engine sensors are fed separately into the left and right headphones which are also background noise cancelling to keep the engine / exhaust noise clear. I could also data log and display this information, but have so far not bothered. They also have a bright LED warning per channel.

All of the above is real time and will provide me with the same amount of information on the engine that you have on the dyno, although I do not know if the FCon has the ability to provide a real time trace of the target AFR versus actual AFR on screen which is for me very useful. Motec also has a quick lambda feature which automatically calculates and enters the required fuel map value to reach the target AFR



Abbey M/S said:


> I am sure I know the answer , yes both ways when you are going for max BHP/TORQUE will be pushing the motor near to a damage threshold 1 run with a incorrect figure or compensation can cause heavy damage.
> 
> 
> But what Dan and l are getting at is the controlled enviroment that a dyno allows you to tune under and we feel you do not have to run the car as hard for so long as you can see so much more data while in a controlled dyno enviroment no hassle with changing gears,holding the car in a straight line.


I can log any output at between one and two hundred readings per second and can play the information back till I am satisfied where to make the next move.



Abbey M/S said:


> Can you actually say that you have your cams in the ideal position for best BHP/TORQUE? We have huge amounts of data from the dyno that cams need setting to ever car there is never a set figure for 1 set of cams,We have found even swinging the inlet cams 2 deg advance on tomei 260 deg cams will make a car spool up on boost 750 rpm earlier, I am sure every car will show a difference with a little time on a controlled enviroment chassis dyno.
> 
> My view you could spend months and huge amount of miles on the road or dyno tweaking here and there the ignition and fuel maps to fine tune your map,some people are lucky enough to be able to spend this time and spend the money to do this,other people cant understand how comes a car takes 3/4 hours to map on a dyno. They think ever car is the same so you can just cut and paste a map do a power run and it will be finished. All our cars are different , we use them in different ways , they are tuned in different ways but in the end the only thing we want is fast and reliable cars.
> 
> ...


Don’t know if I can stand up to the plate with an intelligent post, but I’ll do my best to make my points balanced!

In summary

For me the questionable side of the dyno is whether you torturing the engine through overheating due to a lack of throughput of air and have you got the load on the engine such that the engine temps are in line with those on the road. It may be that the temperature maps are so well controlled that this a non-issue, but for me this is a worry.

The questionable side of road mapping is have you got a safe environment to perform the mapping and have you got an accurate means of judging the improvement in performance.

I have not had the pleasure of seeing your dyno, but I agree you have produced some great results.

Maximum BHP on turbo cars is limited by the presence or not of detonation and in this regard the dyno will not help you much as it comes down to a good set of detonation monitoring equipment and whether your engine temperatures are more or less likely to produce detonation when driven in anger.

I agree that it is easy for you to look at the numbers coming form the dyno to say you have XX BHP at YY RPM. I have a datalog that shows a speed graph that gives me much the same information although it probably takes me a good bit longer to judge which settings are best.

I have seen the results of swinging the cams on your dyno plots and it is clear to see that that it is very easy for you to pick the setting most suited to your performance needs.

I also do not have the number of hours experience you guys have in going straight to the values that matter. 

The hardest part is for me being able to find a flat surface that will allow an easy comparison and in this regard, the dyno is a clear winner.

Regardless of whether I am mapping on my own or sitting with Rod doing the intermediate RPM stuff or the flat out stuff, we have a clear definition of whether we have the ignition right through detonation monitoring and the fuelling right using a mixture of Lambda and exhaust gas temperature, backed up comparing one datalog against another.

What I can’t do is put a number to the power output and I also can’t say whether the mapping would be better done by yourselves.

Bottom line is it takes a good company to build a car that stays together without blowing up never mind if has been mapped to the absolute maximum possible power. We are all extremely fortunate to have the mechanical equipment available to allow our chosen tuners to make our dreams come true.

Cheers

Hugh


----------



## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*R32*



MichaelG said:


> Keiths car is a normal road car, albeit less of the creature comforts.
> 
> I loved it when we pulled into the Shell station in Dundee, stuck in £20 of Optimax and went for a blast back up the road.


Considering this thread is ' heathly ', fcku it, here I am ....

Michael G : You are a kanwer.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Go get your own real car to talk about as like so many I have often wondered what its like up Keiths Ass, can you tell us please, is it a hot place? 

Keiths car is real cool, its done the biz  and this time it didnt blow up which is always nice but its not a road car ( why this is such a good thing to argue about I dont know... ), its a drag car, regardless of the tax disc, point is any wally can tax and MOT a car( not that K is one ), it could be a shell with wheels for all that arguement is good for - if is such a fab road car, get Keith to drive it down to Kent one afternoon would you...thats if you can find your way out of his ass to ask him 

As for great mapping on the road, Keith told us he run in excess of 1000 degs EGT at TOTB - yeah......err....great.....

The dyno is an invaluable place to set cars up and should not be ignored, its not the 100% be-all-end-all but its the place to make 95% of your work( which dyno is a whole other arguement ) . It doesnt suit all ( if Rod doesnt use it for example ) thats fine but you are attempting to imply that its best on the road, as is Redline Girlracer - whos vast knowledge of Fords is always on hand to impress 17 year olds..., what utter tosh.

Andy

Ps. I have never seen EGT's over 860 and my car weighs 1700 kilos.My car has been mapped on a dyno and more recently on the road and have experienced both. The latter being very scarey loading the car at 195mph whilst making adjustments - not ideal. The dyno is the place, the road is not.


----------



## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> as is Redline Girlracer - whos vast knowledge of Fords is always on hand to impress 17 year olds..., what utter tosh.


That had me laughing so hard Ive spat coffee all over the keyboard...  :smokin:


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> Considering this thread is ' heathly ', fcku it, here I am ....
> 
> Michael G : You are a kanwer.
> 
> ...


Quality post from an established businessman. How informative and classy. 
Sumo Power standing out from amongst the rest as usual.  

I said my opinion here 3 pages ago......dan0h and i have since laughed about it.......and where were you when this thread was at its peak? probably on the phone to mario with the receiver in one hand and your c*ck in the other.

Nice hearing from you though, envy is a terrible thing......

PS......Maybe get back onto the topic of mapping now ?
PPS......Have you changed your adverts in Japanese Performance yet claiming to be the Drag Champions ?  touche !
PPPS......Kanwer is spelt W A N K E R.....or are you using one of Marios handy downs again? i.e. Australian Keyboard


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Andy Barnes said:


> As for great mapping on the road, Keith told us he run in excess of 1000 degs EGT at TOTB - yeah......err....great.....
> .


I was told the reason that Keith ran high EGTs at TOTB was due to a faulty fuel pump and NOT due to a mapping issue but thats one for Keith to answer.


----------



## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Reply*

Oh, here we go, lets try to make Andy sound bad as he is a' tuner', sorry mate, you dont have to, I can do that for myself ( I have a proven track record )  , dont feel the need to help out.

As for Mario, its called friends, have you got any?

I have read this thread and one of the only things that got my goat is your tosh. Opinions and quality info is welcomed here and well read by many, including myself as there are some good people giving input - yours aside.

You have a newly appointed role ' Keiths cheerleader '..... Give me a 'K'...Give me an 'E'..................... 

Getting back...although slight off topic....

Hugh, real sticky tyres are what necessary to get some better times, I am surprised you havent gone down that route yet. I came to realise that its great trying to do it the street car normal road tyre route just wastes time and money. Hook yourself up with some 555R's and get cracking. With slicks I ran a 9.8 with only a 136mph trap speed previously ( although you would run slightly less TS with slicks ). What we need in the Drag scene is a few full-prepped cars running for drag, forget all this ' but its a road car ' , real drag is far more exciting, thats the route we are taking - lower times.

Cheers

Andy


----------



## tommyflan (Aug 14, 2003)

*forget the mapping*

just slag each other
much better fun
have a nice day
bye now


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> As for Mario, its called friends, have you got any?


Yes i have plenty.......you would have seen them all with me in our TEAM COWIE CHEERLEADER T-SHIRTS if you had been at TOTB4......oops thats a sore point isnt it  



Andy Barnes said:


> You have a newly appointed role ' Keiths cheerleader '..... Give me a 'K'...Give me an 'E'.....................


Well as i said, a lot of us up here have the T-SHIRTS, and the Kilts to match......i just need to shave my legs  

I will change my sig just for you Andrew.   
This arguing with you is getting boring now. You must be real busy.  Please stop it......oh please......oh go on.....please.


----------



## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Andy Barnes said:


> As for great mapping on the road, Keith told us he run in excess of 1000 degs EGT at TOTB - yeah......err....great.....


Just to let you and everyone know my car was running out of fuel at the top end of the 1.25 mile.
I had to keep looking over at the EGT gauge all the way up the top speed run.
the reason for this was that we were running 7 bar fuel pressure on full boost through 1000cc injectors and when holding the car flat out for so long the pump feeding the swirl pot was not keeping up with the 2 pumps feeding the fuel rail.this was making the EGT rise to 1000 degrees.
when the car runs on the 1/4 mile and when we mapped it at brunters the temperature never went above 900.
this is the reason why we are changing the fuel system in the car so that
this problem will not happen again

we are fitting new fuel pumps,new alloy tank,big filters,new pipework and larger injectors  

yes my car has been live mapped,cost me too much money to cook it on a dyno, it was me and Rod that wanted it done this way.
Mark Shead would have liked us to have done 90% of the mapping on the engine dyno,but it did not happen,it is the last 10% where it could all go wrong,the 3 of us spent 3 hours mapping my car at brunters and to this day no changes have been made to the maps there is more power to be found in the old girl yet.

Just to let you all know when I was running the engine in I drove from my house over a mountain road on and off the throttle then all the way to Dundee keeping the car in 5th to keep it at 4500 revs on the main road
it is just over 60 miles when I got there it only took 14L to fill the tank
19 miles to the gallon  So the live mapping cant be that bad can it.

Keith :smokin:


----------



## MIKEGTR (Jul 8, 2005)

Opps first real post on here and i start world war 3  

Thanks for all the opinions (some well informed, some not so) and thanks for the entertaining read


----------



## Lex DakarDatsun (May 22, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> ... my car weighs 1700 kilos..


my car weighs about 1260 kg  

this is a great thread  

to summarise the story so far:

some people like mapping on the road/brunters

some prefer mapping on the dyno

danoh knows lots about mapping

micheal g dont know as much but is good friends with keith  

mark @ abbey knows lots about all types of engine

hugh has a very powerful R34

Tim also has a very powerful R34 +R...+R...

mark shead likes mapping on the road but sometimes likes to pop round to simon norris for a cuppa  

keith's car is very,very fast in a straight line  

Mick begley will have a special wepon ready for japshow finale :smokin: 

Cars run faster on the strip if they use 'drag spec' tyres  

Garage Saurus who have been tuning RB26's since 1990 use a rolling road  

Paul from Zen is a textbook forum lurker who has 4 pot car that would compete with most the 'big boys' on this and most of uk jap forums on both strip and circuit  

Stavros @ redline like cossies but is getting the horn for drifting  

cheers

Lex


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Hugh,

thnaks for the reply was a good read . Ref the fitting of the Motec I am sure I could use a well known japanese tuning firm loom to allow the fitment to a far easier job I might even look at it myself one day when i get a spare minute or 2.

It seems you having been spending a huge amount of time fiddling with the motec on the road , from the info I have seen and read about I would say the motec lambda set up is very very good. I have seen it used many a times whilst I was within the Motor racing business, it was run it on the Lister and Panoz,s that I used to work on.

From memory it is very good at hitting controlled lambda target settings, I presume you can adjust the speed of the feedback for this closed loop control.

Cant you use a G-sensor to help with sorting out if a tweak here and there has helped by looking a a G reading more g is normally more torque/power?

I full respect what you have done with your car with the mapping it is something I will never do due to to many people and police about down our neck of the woods but as you say the problem is a 
controlled enviroment that can be used again again.

I feel the time taken to do a good power run on the dyno is not long enough to have any hassle with air temp within the dyno room, yes your air/water
compensations need to be spot on but this comes through mapping a huge amount of cars that we seem to have done.

This thread had begain to become a good debate the last few replies have made me laugh very much.

As you say it takes a well built motor to take the abuse we give our cars and
the mapping is the crossing the T and dotting the i,s to finish the job off 100%

I hope this thread has been good for people out there that havent had a good looking at mapping to understand the elements in mapping a big bhp motor.

hope to have more thoughts re-your thread Hugh within the next few days , nothing bad just a few more thought to throw at you.

BTW Kieth Tim says a good diet to lose a few pounds helps with the drag times!

I am wearing my Kieth Cowie T-shirt just for you mister! lol but like fcuk am I going to wear a kilt.....
Mark


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Lex your a nutter.....pmsl mister......wicked jap styley


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

classic Dirk!! lol









Dyno mapping/testing cant be a bad thing...

http://www.cosworth.com/downloads/cosworthV8_movie5_medium.mpg


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> BTW Kieth Tim says a good diet to lose a few pounds helps with the drag times!
> Mark


Could always hire a 7 stone jokey 

dunno how he would adjust from 1bhp to a 1000bhp


----------



## MichaelG (Feb 21, 2002)

Lex DakarDatsun said:


> my car weighs about 1260 kg
> 
> this is a great thread
> 
> ...


lmfao THAT is pure quality.......seriously.  Superb. 



Abbey M/S said:


> I am wearing my Kieth Cowie T-shirt just for you mister! lol but like fcuk am I going to wear a kilt.....
> Mark


Its really not that bad,i can see it catching on with u and Dan0h while mapping  granted you might get the pi55 taken out of you, but i get that 90% of the time on here anyways......thick Scottish sweaty leathery skin though.  

You would just need to learn the lingo such as "och aye this dyno is sooper min," or Dan0h shouting through to you "och fit we gannae dee noo, we canna squeeze any more power from her captain! and thees big fan is blawin weel up ma skeert !" (In a star trek scotty type voice)


----------



## andy g (Mar 1, 2005)

Well i just made "her in doors" read all 7 pages of this. I quote from her " What are you talking about". I did try to explain with illustration from FHM but to no avail. But she did say at the end "all you boys play nicely and dont be so nasty to each other" 
Women you got love them.
Ps i think you all have valid points good and bad. As my maths teacher Mr. Walker use to say "You pays your money, you takes your choice"!!!!


----------



## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

dan0h said:


> Michael,
> 
> When hughs car has gone as fast as Tims, then I'd take it seriously as a comparison, infact talking of similarities between Hughs and Tims R34's, let us recall who used to work on that car, and who works on it now? - hence it now has pulled a high 9 in FULL road trim (plus Tims three DVD screens!), instead of the 11's it used too, no disrespect to any tuner, but the facts now speak for themselves.
> 
> ...


Dan, if you have something to say, then just come out and say it. A lot of that post is a thinly disguised slight about RB Motorsport.

As for the results from Tim's car, are you saying we did a shit job on it? And that the only thing that has changed to make it faster is your map. I find that VERY hard to believe, especially knowing Tim's passion for swapping bits from one car to another. And Also I would stake a large lump of money on it's vast improvement is down to Tim's technic for launching improving. He does a LOT of driving, and now seems quite capable at launching. If you want to quote figures than surely it should be terminal speeds not times. We all know that times are greatly influenced by the driver, where as the spped gives a truer showing of the cars potential. 

Also are you saying that we use generic maps??? You should either get your facts straight, or possibly engage your brains before spouting pearls of wisdom like that. Or maybe we should stick to the bottom rungs of your elusive ladder??????????????

Nobody from RB came on here slagging your work, so just where exactly do you get off on slagging ours??? I know that if Tim doesn't like something he will tell us about it, and am sure that Mark is more than capable of telling Rod directly if something was no good. I don't consider it your place to come on here and have a dig.


----------



## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

If we had space in the workshop then I'm quite certain a dyno would be a great tool to have at our diaposal. I would say that 90% of a cars map can be achieved on a dyno with very good results, and as stated previously it makes for very quick reckoning if a mod (eg, cam timing) has produced benefits. These benefits can be spotted when mapping on the road, but it takes a LOT more work than glancing over a graph. If we did have a dyno it wouldn't be the only tool used to map a car. I have yet to come across a dyno that an accurately re-create the real world. For this reason the final stages of mapping will always be done in the enviroment in which the car is to be used.

If Dan can do 100% of his map on the dyno then he is either EXTREMELY good at his job, or leaves a big enough margin for safety to know that the map will work fine on the road.

I don't think you can say the road or the dyno (or engine dyno) is the be all and end all of mapping, they are all just tools used in different ways by different people to arrive at similar results, and to be honest a bit of dyno and road is what is needed to get the perfect end result.


----------



## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

I get splinters sitting on the fence when it comes to tuners, but I don't see Dans comments as an attack, he clearly said he hopes nothing like that would happen..

But, using no specific car as an example, any Skyline with over 900bhp from a 2.7, 2.8 or even a 3.0 is producing over 300bhp a litre. Quite simply if someone has a car producing that sort of power & expects it to last forever & not have a failure is away with the fairies.

An F1 car produces around the 900bhp mark from a 4.0, and lasts 2 weekends, and pushes out roughly a quarter less bhp per litre. 

& before I get accused of being a hater, it wouldn't be further from the truth. 

Huge power from a small engine is never going to last - yet everyone seems to have missed this - its not mud slinging, or putting someones work down over another, its a simple fact..


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

-C- said:


> I get splinters sitting on the fence when it comes to tuners, but I don't see Dans comments as an attack, he clearly said he hopes nothing like that would happen..


I am an RB customer but have no axe to grind with Abbey and anyway their record speaks for itself BUT the comments made by DanOh do read to me as he is implying that Tims car was improved solely from their dyno remapping and not from an improvement in driver technique/tyres/susp/whatever etc and that Hughs car doesnt fulfil it capabilitites. Hugh has stated that he doesnt do any special preparation or practice for TOTB and the tone with comments like "for whatever reason" about Hughs and "let us recall who used to work on that car, and who works on it now?" about Tims seemed derisory to RB even with the no disrespect postscript but maybe I misunderstood what DanOh was trying to get across.


----------



## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Surely getting an ideal map is all about reacting/adjusting and compensating for meaningful data acquisition which takes time and many different environments to acquire a full map. 

Personally I would use a combination of both for the ideal map. In previous experience mapping on the rolling road is good to set up a map and see where you can make or lose power/torque, although in past experience my Subaru was hitting totally different load sites on the rolling road although I have no experience with hub dynos, presumably if you can replicate the same load sites you hit on the road it should be fine so a lot comes down to the RR operator I guess. IMHO, I would say an RR is great to setup the base map/cam pulleys etc, but compensations to the map should be done in real world environments or as a result of data acquired through real world environments. I personally don't feel that you can get the best out of a car in one mapping session and it's something that requires close monitoring so you can make meaningful tweaks to continously improve.

When I eventually get mine up and running I intend to map it on both Dyno and Road and not purely in one sitting but monitor it and make notes of how it reacts in different conditions/environments under different loads and make suitable adjustments. I'm a big fan of data acquisition and don't think you can ever have too much data. Of course to measure the effects can only really be done on a dyno but trying to simulate the set conditions is harder.

Nito


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

If you have a good generic base map you can go straight to real world optimisation of that base map by live mapping.imo
If a motor is of a new and unknown spec to the mapper I can see the need maybe to dyno to create a base map.


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

NITO said:


> Surely getting an ideal map is all about reacting/adjusting and compensating for meaningful data acquisition which takes time and many different environments to acquire a full map.
> 
> ~ snip ~
> 
> ...


One of the main points I tried to make on the earlier posts is that you may be able to hit the same or similar load sites, but the water temperature and air temperature on the dyno may or may not be the same as those you will find on the road.

If they are not the same temperatures that you will experience on the road, are the air and water temperature correction maps accurate?

Next problem is that ignition timing on a turbo engine is function of the onset of detonation. 

If we agree that detonation is a function of combustion chamber temperature, it follows that airflow and general engine cooling will affect the onset of detonation and therefore the ignition timing that will be necessary on the dyno.

Of course you can add some fuel to keep the combustion chamber temperature down and therefore advance the ignition to a reasonable level.

After completing all of the above, do you know if your car will be on the button on the road - in my interpretation not necessarily.

For clarity I have in an earlier post acknowledged that there are places that a dyno wins - eg safety since you are not driving at silly speeds - basic settings like cam timing and ease of interpreting results.


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

970bhp from 3.0 litres


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Hugh,



> If we agree that detonation is a function of combustion chamber temperature, it follows that airflow and general engine cooling will affect the onset of detonation and therefore the ignition timing that will be necessary on the dyno.


 yes agree with this 100% but do you map in 3rd,4th ,5th or even 6th a car reacts totally different in different gears it walks through 
the map faster in the lower gears and slower in the upper gears if your lucky like Hugh you can have multiple maps i.e map for 1 st , 2nd and so on so it enables you to map ignition and fuel in all gears.Most lower end of the market ECU,s have only 1 map so you have to map the ignition for all eventualities top speed normal driving etc etc.

 Mark


----------



## BBD (May 30, 2002)

Well my experiance. no dyno around here so we use live mapping and I frankly do not trust anyone to touch my car. So I do the mapping the very little I know it works for me and if it blows I dont point my finger towards anyone but myself and I like it to stay this way. buttom line 4 years and only 1 rebuild and its not due to engine faliure not pushing big numbers I take it safe and rich.

What I know is if we had a Dyno then 99% of the tuneing will be done on the Dyno why cuz any change can be spotted on the next run and it doesnt take a lot of time to do adjustments... 1% then will be live and isweather oriented + or - timeing by a degree or two, same goes for fuel.

You can do more work in 3 hrs on a dyno than live mapping. so what is the best way to map the car? just use both.


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Mark,

For me the highest gear possible is the aim, however, I feel it is not practical when mapping on your own.

Motec also allow you to link the Exhaust Gas Temperature to the boost, so if 860°C is the maximum you want to aim for, 860° is what you get. Handy if you have a fuel pump failure or not sure if you are running rich enough in the higher gears.

Cheers

Hugh


----------



## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Hugh,

Out of interest, how much work was it to fit an M600 ECU to your car?

Regards
Nito


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Not read the thread as cant be arsed getting into it, but i DID notice something along the lines of 
_"F1 engines produce 900bhp from 3.5litres and they need rebuiulding after every race so how do you expect a Skyline engine to last?"_
What a load of old poo.

Imagine the abuse a F1 engine gets in a race, then think of how long on the road/strip it would take for the same wear/abuse.
ESPECIALLY as we talking non turbo here, so far far far more stress and revs than a turbo engine of similar capacity.

Also what do F1 engines wear out? Rings, bearings, etc, nothing to do with mapping, just stress of revs.

Why do Skyline engines break 99% of the time if the mileage isnt big? Pistons, Head Gaskets, maybe Rods.
Why do they break? 
Pistons is det or hea from poor mapping. 
Head Gasket is usually det from mapping too as the in cyl pressure from det is enourmous. 
Rods can often be det from mapping too as rods moving up, det offcurs trying to push the rod back and and bends the fooker. 
Only other reasons you ever see Skylines break is lubrication probs, ie bearing wear or a rod catching and flying out the block.

From what ive seen over the years, a good 80% of modified turbo cars blowups are down to fueling/det which can be 100% prevented with good safe mapping.


----------



## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

SteveN said:


> Why do Skyline engines break 99% of the time if the mileage isnt big? Pistons, Head Gaskets, maybe Rods.
> Why do they break?
> Pistons is det or hea from poor mapping.
> Head Gasket is usually det from mapping too as the in cyl pressure from det is enourmous.
> ...


Have never seen a failed head gasket due to det. Head gasket failures are fairly rare on RB26's. More common is head failure due to excess heat from failed rad/hose etc.. or just not watching the temp gauge and driving the tit's off it without adequate oil cooling. Also block failure but again down to excess heat, usually on 33's with the porous blocks. Or cracked bores on motor's that have 88mm pistons.

Also have never seen a bent rod due to det???? Most common cause for rod failure is over reving on the stock bolts which cannot take the load, or picking up on the bigend and then fighting it's way out of the side of the block.

Most common failure is piston ring land failure. This is usually from driving it hard with a jap map on uk fuel. Next most common is main bearing failure, this is quite often atrributed to incorrect amount of oil in the engine, running the wrong grade or running it for to long. Also not uncommon for a miniscule piece of debris to either stick in the pump gears, or within the shuttle assembley in the oil pump.

So i don't fully agree with you on det being the main killer. It certainly plays it's part. But is quite definately (in my experience) not the main problem.


----------



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

On highly modified ones (ones that had at least a PowerFC or simialr fitted) piston damage is the main problem tho Cord, that was my point.

My point about det blowing head gaskets is valid in general, not nececerily RBs.
Mild det that dont do any real piston damage will still increace cyl pressure hugely for a fraction of a second, and people fit uprated gaskets to stop them blowing, but if there was no det there would be no issue, and no need for an uprated gasket.

Never known a RB rod to bend/snap from det, was another general one.

Main thing is pistons though, and we both seem to agree there, and that should be totally prevented with proper mapping.

But seems most modded ones still fail in that way.


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Nito,

Most of my time was spent researching the pinouts to link the standard ECU in with the Motec. It's not that hard, just that I had an overwhelming desire not to get it wrong and blow something up.

I thought that I would modify an HKS FCon V harness, but after locating my Motec ECU under the glovebox I decided that it would be neater to make my own from scratch.

The glovebox location gives you good access to get wires from the engine bay by routing throgh the bulkhead alongside the main loom.

I would really like to have removed the standard ECU, but it was much simpler to go for the minumum control over the ignition and the injectors.

Many of the aftermarket ECU's will not drive the ignition coils directly and need an ignition amplifier. You could fit one from an R33 and use a R33 coils and loom, you could also consider the need for a CDI ( capacitive discharge ignition ) set-up if you are going for big power.

You will also need to consider wideband lambda and any other electrical add - ons fuel pressure etc. which might need to be wired back to the ECU

The Motec ECU pins were not easy to crimp without the proper crimp tool and this should also be considered.

Cheers

Hugh


----------



## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

SteveN said:


> But seems most modded ones still fail in that way.


I can't think of any modded cars that have failed on a piston due to our map not being upto the job (or any of the other well respected tuners on here Abbey, Hiteq, RK etc..). I have seen modded cars with pistons gone, but when you dig a little deeper you quite often find that customers have changed one thing or another and expected the old map to still work. I don't think mappers are as bad as you seem to think they are (certainly in our neck of the woods) but getting a customer to admit his latest shiney purchase has trashed his motor is VERY hard!!!


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Cord,steve

We have seen quite a few std cars dett the ring land away, car being used with unleaded fuel normally does it and the raising of the boost without any managementc changes or upgrade., the answer is I thought it would be okay when they are asked?

But I wll back up all what you have just said Cord , never seen a gasket go under det etc etc. But even worn out spark plugs can cause DET imho.We have found the most company fault with the cars lately is faulty crank angle sensors this show sup on the dyno as very rich AFR and low torque/bhp output also dyno graph will be very wavy.

Hugh,

so you dont use the gear position Ignition map control then?

thread starting to look good again.


----------



## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Thanks Hugh.

Regards
Nito


----------



## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Agree totally with SteveN on the mapping front ,too many so called Skyline experts out there ,heard of  loads of horror storys of cars going bang after a so called tune up/map .I would rather pay more and travel more and go to the top boys for a decent service .Alot of the so called tuners are giving these cars a bad reputation .


----------



## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Speaking of plugs, I've remebered the other main source of engine failures we seem to be seeing at the moment. And that is the tips falling of plugs and then causing untold damage. The plugs that are the culprits are the Denso HKS ones. I think these plugs are so bad I wouldn't use one as a keyring because that would probably over stress it and cuase the tip to drop of in my pocket!!!

This seems a fairly new ish phenomenon. I've seen it in the past, but never as much as now. I don't know if this is down to the quality of plug not being as good as it used to. Or just that a lot more people are using them due to them being available quite cheap??


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Cord,

We have traced a few spark plug breakages down to badly performing Injectors. We
have had a car in with a dropped tip , removed injectors placed in our injector tester
cleaner (ASNU) machine and the cylinder that had the tip drop off the injectors spray 
was really bad more like a hosepipe not an injector. The mileage of the cars/engines
are getting high mileage injectors are forgotten about they work hard and need 
servicng and looking at. Even some well known injectors we have checked a do not
spray very well.

food for thought maybe?

Mark


----------



## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Definately worth considering. Injectors are certainly overlooked.

But every dropped tip I've seen has been HKS Denso. Maybe sometimes the injectors are at fault, but other plugs are man enough to take the abuse???


----------



## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Here we go again.*

Steve N

First you say that RB,s pistons, head gaskets and rods are fragile , Then when cord challenged you you changed your mind and said it was "in general".

You should have been a bloody politician.

I will add a bit from my humble experience of 15 yrs repairing Skylines.I think that the engine I am currently building is the 24th this year!

I have never ,repeat never seen a rod of any material break under the small end boss. They all suffer big end failure before they break the large end.

I have only ever seen one head gasket failure and that was when 2 off the head bolts had not been tightened.That includes standard gaskets running at 1.4 bar.

Now pistons are a different matter.98% of piston failures are on standard engines where either the management has not been "adjusted" to suit increased boost or low quality fuel.
On tuned engines it is normally a fuelling issue,perhaps a dodgy fuel pump,or one pump of a duel system packing up,or a dodgy pressure reg or injectors failed etc

To say that it was bad mapping is the biggest load of b-llocks I have heard for a long time.

One more thing before I go back to my arm chair and pipe and slippers. I think that a Formula ! engine has an easy life compared with a 600hp skyline motor because it is warmed up properley,it has plenty of good quality lube, it never idles, it doesnt get just driven to the shops and back,and it is constantly monitored all the time!!!

And by the way have you got a beard and a moustache?
/nite all

Tony :smokin: :smokin:


----------



## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Why do plugs break ? something must cause it to let go in the first place ,what about the NGK plugs ,maybe they are stronger and dont break so much but you may still have a problem rearing up anytime due to something not being right but know about it later instead. Can the Denso's really be at fault all the time ,there are plenty of reputable companys selling and using them .Not saying anything good or bad about any plug ,just asking if there could be something amiss .


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Hugh Keir said:


> Nito,
> 
> Most of my time was spent researching the pinouts to link the standard ECU in with the Motec. It's not that hard, just that I had an overwhelming desire not to get it wrong and blow something up.
> 
> ...


Hugh,
I was planning on removing the standard ECU/loom completely and as I am going for the matching CDI ignition/Mercury coils the ignition side should be reasonably straight forward *fingers crossed* but one concern is where does the MFD take its info from? Is it directly from the various sensors or is it from an output from the std ECU?

Cam


----------



## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

Wow what a thread.

Some really interesting stuff in there fellas.

Couple of things I think I'd like to add (just my opinion of course).....

Someone had commented that they didn't like or preferred not to use a dyno because it was harder on the engine or stressed it more, or something similar to that. In my experience / knowledge on the subject (which isn't that vast compared to some) it's really down to the dyno bay, it's design, it's cooling setup etc that makes people think that somehow running a car from 3000-8000rpm on a dyno is any different to doing it on the road.

Given, if the cooling isn't looked after it's very harsh on a car, but of course that comes down to the quality of the facility. I have recently run my car on a Dynapack here and had no issues at all with running the car, kept all temperatures within reasonable limits with no issues, so I can't see why anyone would think dyno runnings was sooooo much worse than road running.

Second thing is that some use the term Rolling road to describe the dyno. Well of course everyone knows that comparing a roller dyno to a Dynapack just doesn't make sense on 2 sides. 1. A Dynapack is significantly more accurate. I mean logic or even good old common sense says that if you've got the mass of a steel roller weighing lets say 2-300KG or more between the thing making the information (the car) and the thing reading the information (electronics) that if the car say loses a slight amount of power for a short period of time........will a mass that heavy, spinning at such speed, really be affected enough to show anything meaningful, or is it more likely that the mass in the roller will just mask the fact that the car lost power or misfired momentarily ???

2. They're physcially different and so will produce a different approach and will have different factors that affect their ability to read info from the car.

In turn if the dyno you're using doesn't give you as much feedback (as I believe, well have proven, is the case with roller dynos), surely it's common sense to take it a step further on from that and realise that a lack of relative information or more accurately a lack of depth in that information means that it's less likely to help you get your mapping right when running the car on the dyno.

I suppose that's where some people will possibly see the need for road tuning since it's again common sense in most peoples eyes that if you can recreate the car in it's "real" environment that you have to get the best results, however as others have stated you then lose all the other factors, such as true repeatabilty, control, accuracy to a certain degree as you can't control the environment.

It's a tough one as both arguments make some sense, I believe however that a 98% tune on a Dynapack is all that 98% or more of people out there need......I agree with Dan0h about being able to pretty much map all that's needed on the dyno, only reason I can see for "road" tuning is for cars such as Keiths and others which have pretty special requirements, although even there I believe the majority can be done on the Dynapack.

My points are really posed as questions more than statements of fact (apart from the accuracy of the Dynapack). They're just things that have popped into my head as I've read through all 9 pages 

Great thread, thanks to all who's contributed something useful.


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Abbey M/S said:


> Hugh,
> 
> so you dont use the gear position Ignition map control then?
> 
> thread starting to look good again.


Mark,

The version of software I use allows a single figure correction to be applied to each gear.

It only allows a whole number to be applied across the map eg 0° for 1st, second, third, fourth, 1° retard in 5th and 2° retard in 6th.

I have not used it yet, but I agree it has merit.

I guess if you mapped in 4th and applied 1° retard in 5th and 2° retard in 6th, you would not be far off.

There is a later version of the software available which might allow more options, but I have not tried it yet.

Cheers

Hugh


----------



## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

COSSYCam said:


> Hugh,
> I was planning on removing the standard ECU/loom completely and as I am going for the matching CDI ignition/Mercury coils the ignition side should be reasonably straight forward *fingers crossed* but one concern is where does the MFD take its info from? Is it directly from the various sensors or is it from an output from the std ECU?
> 
> Cam


Cam,

The standard ECU has a large number of in/outs which may be difficult to cope with on your new ECU, especialy as there might be the odd additional input you might like to consider - differential fuel pressure etc.

The MFD inputs are, for the ones I needed, wired straight to the MFD, I spliced into the back of the MFD for a couple of readings - EGT & MAP.

MFD pinouts are here 

Cheers

Hugh


----------



## COSSYCam (Nov 16, 2004)

Many Thanks for the info Hugh.


----------



## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*AEM ECU*










Andy


----------



## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Andy Barnes said:


> [lMG]PLUGPLUGPLUG[/lMG]
> 
> Andy


So, your car now runs AEM management? Although it says it runs HKS management in the add in the Sumo Power adverts?

Then again, says its the fastest GTR in europe in the adverts too, even though Keith took that title some time ago


----------



## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

Mick


----------



## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

Did hugh run after 4pm  

ROFL


----------



## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*EMS*

Hi,

My car runs F-Con currently although I have been playing with the AEM EMS but I dont have time to change it 100% right now but its rather interesting  . Not sure why you have a chip about my car but I will confirm this :

Our adverts say the 9.68 was done using HKS EMS, it doesnt say I will never change it, the adverts no longer say we are Europes quickest as we are not, Keith is. Adverts take a while to get changed as we have to re-design them and they are put in the magazine weeks before it actually comes out, combine that with everything we get up to, its difficult to keep our adverts upto date each month, sorry about that. The picture above is to promote the AEM EMS from Sumo for Skylines.

Hope it clears up your thoughts

Andy


----------



## GTR-Zilla (May 17, 2005)

either way, your stuffed if you do and stuffed if you dont... some people are never satisfied...


----------



## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Andy Barnes said:


> Hi,
> 
> My car runs F-Con currently although I have been playing with the AEM EMS but I dont have time to change it 100% right now but its rather interesting  . Not sure why you have a chip about my car but I will confirm this :
> 
> ...


I have no chip. Just enjoy the hunt for clarity behind marketing hype


----------

