# Best Engine Builders?



## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

Who builds the R35 engine best for power around 850/900?


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

I think all the usual suspects will do a good job. The difference might be spec, location and price.

Edit: and availability..


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Litchfields are very good and have an extremely good reputation for reliability on their builds


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## R35_owner (Jun 3, 2014)

Takamo said:


> Litchfields are very good and have an extremely good reputation for reliability on their builds


Agreed no body else is touching my engine Litchfield all the way


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Takamo said:


> Litchfields are very good and have an extremely good reputation for reliability on their builds


Really, I know a big build on its 3rd motor and never finished running in the first 2 !!


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

There's loads of people building engines out there

Tim Radley
Ac Speedtech
Jm imports
Litchfields
Cnc heads


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Skint said:


> There's loads of people building engines out there
> 
> Tim Radley
> Ac Speedtech
> ...


First 2 for the win


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Any one of the top 3 for me.

But that's a personal choice not based on any work I have had done by them, just a gutt feeling from previous conversations.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

dudersvr said:


> Really, I know a big build on its 3rd motor and never finished running in the first 2 !!


Sounds like abuse to me buddy, I can show plenty that they have done and mapped which are still running strong. Sounds like your mate must have been abusing the shite out them.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Takamo said:


> Sounds like abuse to me buddy, I can show plenty that they have done and mapped which are still running strong. Sounds like your mate must have been abusing the shite out them.


How exactly do you abuse a 1300hp motor? And all were rebuilt FOC, only took 16 months and then his built box blew, still what do you expect for 140K:bawling:


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Surely all tuners are going to have some failures. It's what they do about them when it happens. We can see that AC and Litchfield both have 2.

So what's the concensus? Rods and leave it at 4.25?


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

simGTR said:


> Surely all tuners are going to have some failures. It's what they do about them when it happens. We can see that AC and Litchfield both have 2.
> 
> So what's the concensus? Rods and leave it at 4.25?


IMO rods and a little box work and run more torque at 4.25 ish is perfect for the average guy.
I dont know of any AC failures at all, certainly none when I spoke to them in August


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

How do you actually warrant an engine that's over double it's manufactured horse power?


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Skint said:


> How do you actually warrant an engine that's over double it's manufactured horse power?


Charge a lot of money to build it?


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Skint said:


> How do you actually warrant an engine that's over double it's manufactured horse power?


Thats a very good question and only seems to come up outside the motorsport world, no race team buys a motor and expects any warranty at all, difficult one, BUT if it survives multiple pulls on a dyno theres nothing to say it would fail on the road/strip.
Datalogging shows a lot, we built a fuel injected dogboxed injected Ferrari Dino race car, ran it in on and engine dyno and put in the car, it blew up in spectacular style in first practice, que one unhappy customer as the block split in 2 !!!!, on downloading the logs it turns out the motor hit 14000rpm !!!! Yeah that happens when you go 4th to 1st instead of 3rd, que one red faced owner:smokin:


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

dudersvr said:


> Really, I know a big build on its 3rd motor and never finished running in the first 2 !!


I know a few people who have blown Litchfield built motors. I will deffo not be going there for an engine build. IMO they are ok until 4.25.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Can't see why they should'nt be reliable past stage 4 if built mapped and fitted correctly.

It would be interesting for a name and shame list to see who offers the best and most reliable conversions


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Litchfields do warrant fully built engines and boxes, I know this because I enquired about this on my stage 5 car. Anything and everything has a breaking point and if abused it'll break no matter how much horsepower it is or who has built it but from my personal experience and from knowing many other gtr owners Litchfield cars tend to be strong and very rarely break like some other moded cars out there. Like I said I have personally had 3 of my 35's moded from them and A. They have been mapped safely B. They were very strong and C. They were consistent so my personal recommendation is Litchfields.


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## Chris**** (Apr 27, 2017)

Such a difficult one, but personally I would go a lot on location and recommendations. If both are good (and close) and they fill you with confidence, then use them.

Nothing like traveling miles and having issues. Learnt that the hard way.


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

Takamo said:


> Litchfields do warrant fully built engines and boxes, I know this because I enquired about this on my stage 5 car. Anything and everything has a breaking point and if abused it'll break no matter how much horsepower it is or who has built it but from my personal experience and from knowing many other gtr owners Litchfield cars tend to be strong and very rarely break like some other moded cars out there. Like I said I have personally had 3 of my 35's moded from them and A. They have been mapped safely B. They were very strong and C. They were consistent so my personal recommendation is Litchfields.


Define abusing? Pretty sure all people who have engine builds are serious enthusiasts and wouldn't "abuse" the car.


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## Chris**** (Apr 27, 2017)

D7reU said:


> Define abusing? Pretty sure all people who have engine builds are serious enthusiasts and wouldn't "abuse" the car.


I've seen so many do launch after launch. Not let the oil warm up, and just drive it like it's their last day every time they push the start button! Weirdly they are the ones with issues


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

simGTR said:


> We can see that AC and Litchfield both have 2.


Curious as to wich 2 AC have had as it's 1 company I have never seen any mention of failure from.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

D7reU said:


> Define abusing? Pretty sure all people who have engine builds are serious enthusiasts and wouldn't "abuse" the car.


Ripping the shite out it by thinking that they have a jet fighter in there possession, trying to break the world landspeed record, but alot is to do with how the car is mapped and how the torque is dialed in and whether it's mapped safely or to its peak.


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## AKS (Feb 4, 2015)

I will also be interested in this when the new one arrives, I saw a group buy last year or year before that seemed good value, wonder if it will happen again..........


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

Chris**** said:


> I've seen so many do launch after launch. Not let the oil warm up, and just drive it like it's their last day every time they push the start button! Weirdly they are the ones with issues


Not letting oil warm up is just silly. I will always wait until it hits 70C. Launching the car is a hot subject. As I personally think its a shyte gearbox. Non of the other german double clutches have this problem, even after tuning them. 



Takamo said:


> Ripping the shite out it by thinking that they have a jet fighter in there possession, trying to break the world landspeed record, but alot is to do with how the car is mapped and how the torque is dialed in and whether it's mapped safely or to its peak.


Supposedly its mapped safely. Why shouldn't any GTR owner not be allowed to "rip the shite" out the car. Thats what there build for in my eyes.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Skint said:


> How do you actually warrant an engine that's over double it's manufactured horse power?


Surely its up to the engine builder to build it well within the spec its going to run at , if it was mine i would say something like i want 800hp and i want it reliable - if there is a problem with it within a agreed mileage you will fix it FOC , they can set it up with fail safes so it runs how they want it to . you can set these cars up so they cannot be abused its all in the tune ie retarded timing until a certain temp is met etc


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

D7reU said:


> Pretty sure all people who have engine builds are serious enthusiasts and wouldn't "abuse" the car.


Could be a little naive with that statement, you are aware of the saying ‘more money than sense’? Typically speaking, having a massive amount of disposable income doesn’t equate to having mechanical sympathy or understanding it’s requirements. Some of these guys with big headline numbers don’t understand that they are abusing their cars as they think that’s what they’ve been built for. If you want something you can drive at ten tenths, all day long, you’re looking at LMP1 cars (and the budget to go with them).


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

D7reU said:


> Not letting oil warm up is just silly. I will always wait until it hits 70C. Launching the car is a hot subject. As I personally think its a shyte gearbox. Non of the other german double clutches have this problem, even after tuning them.
> 
> 
> 
> Supposedly its mapped safely. Why shouldn't any GTR owner not be allowed to "rip the shite" out the car. Thats what there build for in my eyes.


If it's mapped safely then it'll be within in power parameters and won't be over exerting the engine or supporting mods so would in theory last longer but nothing is indestructible if regularly abused especially if not properly warmed up or cooled down properly.


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Curious as to wich 2 AC have had as it's 1 company I have never seen any mention of failure from.


It's sometimes hard to keep track, but dudesvr mentions two failures in the other thread with his own car. Ok, 1 was gearbox but the other was a cracked block?


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

simGTR said:


> It's sometimes hard to keep track, but dudesvr mentions two failures in the other thread with his own car. Ok, 1 was gearbox but the other was a cracked block?


Pretty Sure Dudersvr cracked a block on his stock engine not a built one. I also believe he runs a stock gearbox and we all know how often they fail.


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## Chris**** (Apr 27, 2017)

D7reU said:


> As I personally think its a shyte gearbox. Non of the other german double clutches have this problem, even after tuning them.


Main difference is the German versions are mostly all rwd, and just spin. Where as the GTR just takes off! So a lot more force going through the box. Plus launches void the warranty on most, so not many use them. Well a LOT less launch porker turbos than GT-R 'S 

Plus torque levels, and not many GT-R are stock, well none that I have seen


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

D7reU said:


> Define abusing? Pretty sure all people who have engine builds are serious enthusiasts and wouldn't "abuse" the car.


Hoe exactly do abuse and engine with safety trips built in ie rev limiter, its designed to rev to XXXXrpm and be used on track, IMO the only way to abuse it is thrash it from cold or not maintain it, both causes to say sorry sir your fault. 
However the you revved it too high doesnt come into it as it has a limiter built in.


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

Chris**** said:


> Main difference is the German versions are mostly all rwd, and just spin. Where as the GTR just takes off! So a lot more force going through the box. Plus launches void the warranty on most, so not many use them. Well a LOT less launch porker turbos than GT-R 'S
> 
> Plus torque levels, and not many GT-R are stock, well none that I have seen


Porsche Turbo, Audi R8, E63S are all 4wd with loads of torque and have non of these problems. Even after they are tuned. You can launch then all day at full chat.

But saying that, the GTR gearbox tech is nearly 10 years old.


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## D7reU (Jan 7, 2013)

dudersvr said:


> Hoe exactly do abuse and engine with safety trips built in ie rev limiter, its designed to rev to XXXXrpm and be used on track, IMO the only way to abuse it is thrash it from cold or not maintain it, both causes to say sorry sir your fault.
> However the you revved it too high doesnt come into it as it has a limiter built in.


Totally agree


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Whilst hitting the limiter is within its design limits. Constantly bouncing it off the limiter will mean it won't last long.


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Double post


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## HellsSalesman (Apr 12, 2017)

another engine build question: assuming one only wants 800hp with those nice efr 6758 turbos.
who builts the engine the most inexpensive with only new rods? ?


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

HellsSalesman said:


> another engine build question: assuming one only wants 800hp with those nice efr 6758 turbos.
> who builts the engine the most inexpensive with only new rods? ?


Although it is posible to only replace the rods you would be daft not to do the pistons at the same time. The Laobour on a build is a sizeable portion of it and it would only cost you the cost of the pistons extra and a glaze bust and ring gapping session extra. 

Think about it, the OE piston rings and bores would have X amount of miles on them and you have the opportunity to in essence zero mile the engine. Wether that be new OE rings on stock pistons or put your new ring money towards a full set of pistons.

Obviously there are other items you can not get around like bearings and gaskets but you can do a basic piston and rod build for not that much money.


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## HellsSalesman (Apr 12, 2017)

yea i get that and read before that it is a good idea to do pistons at the same time but i never heard about piston failure on the vr38.

so just out of interest: how much would a rod only job be?


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Teaboy said:


> Pretty Sure Dudersvr cracked a block on his stock engine not a built one. I also believe he runs a stock gearbox and we all know how often they fail.


Yup, cracked a block with BB turbos and conservative tune, now have built motor and a lot more power and box lasted 2 months, lost teeth of 4th gear. I pulled trans yesterday and we will rebuild tomorrow with a replacement 4th and Dodson 1st and input (cause we have one) this is just to attend the private supra/GTR day at pod on saturday 21, trans will be back in monday afternoon we also fitting a syvecs for the day and using race fuel, see if we can run 0.s before we fit the bigger turbos, inlet and trans over winter, then not interested in 9's want 8's first time out


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

HellsSalesman said:


> yea i get that and read before that it is a good idea to do pistons at the same time but i never heard about piston failure on the vr38.
> 
> so just out of interest: how much would a rod only job be?


Build - cost of pistons. But then add new rings.


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

HellsSalesman said:


> yea i get that and read before that it is a good idea to do pistons at the same time but i never heard about piston failure on the vr38.
> 
> so just out of interest: how much would a rod only job be?


That's because the rods are the first item to give up but trust me at that point the is not much more left in the pistons.

If rods only ment you could run 800bhp safe and for circa £800 You could add pistons in and run 900bhp+ safe you need to think carefully.

Cost will vary so pick a tuner and get in touch with them to ask. As a guide it's the cost of your chosen components plus around 50 hours Labour and a little bit for fluids and machining if need be. 

1 tuner did a build special around this time last year, you never know it might happen again.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Teaboy said:


> Although it is posible to only replace the rods you would be daft not to do the pistons at the same time. The Laobour on a build is a sizeable portion of it and it would only cost you the cost of the pistons extra and a glaze bust and ring gapping session extra.
> 
> Think about it, the OE piston rings and bores would have X amount of miles on them and you have the opportunity to in essence zero mile the engine. Wether that be new OE rings on stock pistons or put your new ring money towards a full set of pistons.
> 
> Obviously there are other items you can not get around like bearings and gaskets but you can do a basic piston and rod build for not that much money.


You would be mad to not fit oversize pistons and hone to each one with gapped rings so labour goes up a little and machining but its also more madness to leave stock ones in, if your gonna do it do it right.

Cheap is expensive, Expensive is cheap !!!!


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

simGTR said:


> Whilst hitting the limiter is within its design limits. Constantly bouncing it off the limiter will mean it won't last long.


The limiter is not set at the absolute max rpm a motor can hit its set before and on a stand alone will normally cut starting very soft getting harder as it revs closer to the big NO MORE limit


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

You'd probably still add new rings anyway and gap them.

Are built motors quiet. Not too much piston slap?


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

simGTR said:


> You'd probably still add new rings anyway and gap them.
> 
> Are built motors quiet. Not too much piston slap?


This is why I said take your ring money and put it towards a new piston set.

After market pistons are a bit more audible than the stock items when cold but some are better than others.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

simGTR said:


> You'd probably still add new rings anyway and gap them.
> 
> Are built motors quiet. Not too much piston slap?


Mine is very quiet for forged.
Also what people forget as the built motor gains miles is they can very cheaply get the oil analysed to see what material or contaminants are present, ie bearing material or excess petrol, this will tell you more about the running of the motor and tune than anything else.


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## HellsSalesman (Apr 12, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> That's because the rods are the first item to give up but trust me at that point the is not much more left in the pistons.


maybe but like I said I never found ONE example of failed r35 pistons on the interwebs. not here, not in the us of a.

so if you want me to trust you, give me one example and I will shut up. the proof is in the pudding


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

HellsSalesman said:


> so if you want me to trust you, give me one example and I will shut up. the proof is in the pudding


So if I told you I had seen first hand a pin ripped out of the bottom of a piston and the rods was still in one piece, what would you think?

Car was stage 5 and around 780 - 800bhp
TBF it is posible it was in an over rev condition but can not prove it as the guy said it let go at 30mph gently leaving lights ( as they always are )


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

Teaboy said:


> So if I told you I had seen first hand a pin ripped out of the bottom of a piston and the rods was still in one piece, what would you think?
> 
> Car was stage 5 and around 780 - 800bhp
> TBF it is posible it was in an over rev condition but can not prove it as the guy said it let go at 30mph gently leaving lights ( as they always are )


Yeah like they all say, I've never heard anyone who's engine blew say "that I was abusing the shite out of it".... Lol... Only one of two things that cause to happen 1 abuse and 2 is bad build and map


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Like Teaboy says the rods let go before the pistons fail , most people go for rods and pistons in a rebuild so there is not much info how long stock pistons will last with uprated rods and the extra power , it makes sense to do them both - the only downside is you will need bigger turbos and a built gearbox to fully use the forged engine , it becomes very expensive after 4.25 and i bet not great to drive everyday with the uprated clutches you will need


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Teaboy said:


> So if I told you I had seen first hand a pin ripped out of the bottom of a piston and the rods was still in one piece, what would you think?
> 
> Car was stage 5 and around 780 - 800bhp
> TBF it is posible it was in an over rev condition but can not prove it as the guy said it let go at 30mph gently leaving lights ( as they always are )


Out of interest, do you work for one of the well known tuners? You can PM me the answer if you don’t want it on this thread:chuckle:


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## HellsSalesman (Apr 12, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> So if I told you I had seen first hand a pin ripped out of the bottom of a piston and the rods was still in one piece, what would you think?
> 
> Car was stage 5 and around 780 - 800bhp
> TBF it is posible it was in an over rev condition but can not prove it as the guy said it let go at 30mph gently leaving lights ( as they always are )


fair enough, thanks for the insight :thumbsup:


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

terry lloyd said:


> the only downside is you will need bigger turbos and a built gearbox to fully use the forged engine , it becomes very expensive after 4.25 and i bet not great to drive everyday with the uprated clutches you will need


You would be pleasantly surprised how nice you can get even a 20 plate clutch to drive when mapped properly. 

As for the box it's a game of luck but as I have said before I know of 10+ cars making 800-900bhp with North of 700ftlbs of torque on stock boxes with just clutch and baskets.

Bare it in mind that it will generally cost the same to rebuild a blown box as it would cost to build it in the first place so I always say crack on and build it if / when it breaks.


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Out of interest, do you work for one of the well known tuners? You can PM me the answer if you don’t want it on this thread:chuckle:


If it helps validate anything I say here then yes.


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## Tiler (Mar 28, 2014)

You pay your money. And have faith in the engine build. 
Over the years I have had loads of engines built. 
And up to date litchfield are one of the few that have always helped. 
Just never cut corners.


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## 55chev (Mar 4, 2015)

I would be building my own for sure


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## Stuzee75 (Jan 19, 2016)

terry lloyd said:


> Like Teaboy says the rods let go before the pistons fail , most people go for rods and pistons in a rebuild so there is not much info how long stock pistons will last with uprated rods and the extra power , it makes sense to do them both - the only downside is you will need bigger turbos and a built gearbox to fully use the forged engine , it becomes very expensive after 4.25 and i bet not great to drive everyday with the uprated clutches you will need


I currently drive a litchfield built stage 5-6 what ever you want to call it running currently at 878bhp and 684 tq using LM800 turbos forged pistons and rods etc and is fitted with an 18 plate clutch and drives as smooth as any normal car does, gearbox has the magnets and stops done and a up rated diff to as well as an albins shaft etc, I’ve done over 12,000 miles since I bought it only issues were needed a new bell housing not long after I bought it and brake discs and pads done as well as tyres had a couple of litchfield services done and upgrade to the latest ecutek software car now done 25,000 miles. The wife drives it occasionally and finds it no problem to drive.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Fair play then the clutches or mapping them has come come on a bit , heard quite a few comments in the past that they were not great to drive, I'm not a great fan of the stock box in traffic if I'm honest


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## Stuzee75 (Jan 19, 2016)

terry lloyd said:


> Fair play then the clutches or mapping them has come come on a bit , heard quite a few comments in the past that they were not great to drive, I'm not a great fan of the stock box in traffic if I'm honest


I usually do a clutch relearn frequently just to help keep it running as it should. 5min job as long as it’s heated up first. 
Older boxes were a bit more mechanical sounding than the My11 onwards ones but I like the mechanical sound over modern ones.
I had an RS6 wee while ago and found it boring compared to the GTR but merely my opinion others may differ.


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## 55chev (Mar 4, 2015)

Stuzee75 said:


> I usually do a clutch relearn frequently just to help keep it running as it should. 5min job as long as it’s heated up first.
> Older boxes were a bit more mechanical sounding than the My11 onwards ones but I like the mechanical sound over modern ones.
> *I had an RS6 wee while ago and found it boring compared to the GTR but merely my opinion others may differ.*


 I ALSO HAD A STAGE 2 RS6,loved it ,awesome car,different animal from a GTR though.


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## Stuzee75 (Jan 19, 2016)

55chev said:


> I ALSO HAD A STAGE 2 RS6,loved it ,awesome car,different animal from a GTR though.


Yes mine was around the same had a remap on it some air filter upgrades and gear box remap and the speed limiter removed.

The misses never knew this was done as she barely goes over 60mph lol


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## james_barker (Nov 17, 2016)

Takamo said:


> Ripping the shite out it by thinking that they have a jet fighter in there possession, trying to break the world landspeed record, but alot is to do with how the car is mapped and how the torque is dialed in and whether it's mapped safely or to its peak.


What's the point in having an 800hp (or whatever) car and not giving it the beans? Surely defeats the whole purpose of doing it if you're going to ponce around at 3krpm?

Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

james_barker said:


> What's the point in having an 800hp (or whatever) car and not giving it the beans? Surely defeats the whole purpose of doing it if you're going to ponce around at 3krpm?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


The is a difference between using and abusing


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## simGTR (Aug 5, 2017)

Stuzee75 said:


> I usually do a clutch relearn frequently just to help keep it running as it should. 5min job as long as it’s heated up first.
> Older boxes were a bit more mechanical sounding than the My11 onwards ones but I like the mechanical sound over modern ones.
> I had an RS6 wee while ago and found it boring compared to the GTR but merely my opinion others may differ.


What are the gearbox differences across year's?


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Tim Radley @ Race Developments is highly rated and only heard good things about his work.


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## Teaboy (Apr 24, 2016)

simGTR said:


> What are the gearbox differences across year's?


A lot less than people think. >2011 / 2011< Software aside the basic differences are: sump pan, 1 less magnet in the sump pan, piston clips as standard but these where also fitted retrospectively to earlier modles thanks to a TSB, slightly different clutch tower and the last thing I can think of are the gear selector rings.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

james_barker said:


> What's the point in having an 800hp (or whatever) car and not giving it the beans? Surely defeats the whole purpose of doing it if you're going to ponce around at 3krpm?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


Giving it the beans is fine but abusing it meaning holding it on the limiter would blow it up, remember going up in power doesn't mean that you know have a time machine it's still a car with limitations and parameters


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