# Skyline frontal impact strength



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Something that is overlooked but the reality is that all 3 models of the Skyline GTRs have very poor front end impact structure.

Some pictures I found on social media (apologies if it's someone here and does not want them up, contact me and I'll remove them) 

It is no surprise to see the Ford Ka faired much better than the R33 GTR. Apart from driving safer, fitting a cage spot welding front end and extending the roll cagine into and reinforcing the engine bay there is not much else that can be done to improve front end safety. Then you need to factor in and make sure there is a crumple zone to dissipate impact energy. Not an easy thing to do.


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## AlexJ (Apr 3, 2003)

Horribly sight and the side impact protection is very poor too, I was certain I wanted at least a 6 point cage and door bars before taking mine on track.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Sorry meant seam welding not spot.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

AlexJ said:


> Horribly sight and the side impact protection is very poor too, I was certain I wanted at least a 6 point cage and door bars before taking mine on track.


Makes me think about getting a full weld in cage too seeing crashes like this. It is not limited to the R32/33 only the R34 is just as soft or as bad as the R33. R32 is the worst out of the lot.


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## 120506 (Jun 23, 2015)

How rusty were the rails? That rust on the towers?


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

You can't drive with a cage without a helmet. You'll save the car but you'll need a valet to remove your brains from the upholstery.


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## AlexJ (Apr 3, 2003)

Mookistar said:


> You can't drive with a cage without a helmet. You'll save the car but you'll need a valet to remove your brains from the upholstery.


Depends. Leaving cages to one side, if your head makes contact with anything other than an airbag in a crash and you are in trouble. 

Even with a helmet on, contact with a roll cage is no joke. A cage needs a restrained driver, 6 point harness ideally, proper "padding" (misnomer, FIA stuff it is rock hard) and enough clearance to avoid contact in an impact imo. And of course a helmet ideally, but properly setup its not a massive additional risk on the road without one, unless you treat the road like a track.


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## AlexJ (Apr 3, 2003)

RUF make cars with integral cages, Ginetta, Ultima and a few others are similar; exposed or alcantara trimmed cages. If they were fundementally unsafe these cars wouldn't meet standards required for sale; TUV, Type approval or whatever. Just depends how you do it. 

In an R32/S13 it is very hard to fit a 6 point cage and a proper seat and have adequate clearance without lowering the seat mounting points. 

Overlapped impacts like the one above is something that older cars and skylines especially bad in. Modern crash tests mean standards are much higher now.


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

Longitudinal engine layout is also not as good in an overlap impact as the drivetrain misses and the shell takes all the energy.

As for cages it depends if your head can easily hit the bar. Tall people, skylines and cages aren't a good mix.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Mookistar said:


> You can't drive with a cage without a helmet. You'll save the car but you'll need a valet to remove your brains from the upholstery.


You can, you just need the correct 4 or 6 point harness to hold you in place rather than a standard inertia reel seat belt. As long as you can't come out of the seat, your swede will be safe


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Interesting point safety. Of course the older cars are not as safe as the new ones. I suspect the majority of the improvements to crash safety numbers come from modern safety systems.

The question to ask is what is your limit? Motorbikes are not safe compared to cars. Push bikes the same. I see guys riding about with flip flops on...


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

AlexJ said:


> RUF make cars with integral cages, Ginetta, Ultima and a few others are similar; exposed or alcantara trimmed cages. If they were fundementally unsafe these cars wouldn't meet standards required for sale; TUV, Type approval or whatever. Just depends how you do it.
> 
> In an R32/S13 it is very hard to fit a 6 point cage and a proper seat and have adequate clearance without lowering the seat mounting points.
> 
> Overlapped impacts like the one above is something that older cars and skylines especially bad in. Modern crash tests mean standards are much higher now.


Don't suppose you know anyone who can do a cage like the ones Ruf use?

Normal cages are too obtrusive in an R32 for my liking


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## joshuaho96 (Jul 14, 2016)

Food for thought: one of the major changes made to the Skyline GTRs during the early days of import into the US was crashworthiness improvements. Maybe once all Skyline GTRs are FMVSS exempt there will be a release of information on the modifications done to bring the 1996-1998 R33 GTRs into FMVSS compliance.

The MotoRex cars don't have visible cages so it's probably strategic welds and reinforcements in order to pass crash safety.

There may also be chassis rigidity improvements derived from such reinforcements. In this crash you can very clearly see that the safety cell collapsed. I would be shocked if the driver of the Skyline escaped unscathed.


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## anthonymcgrath (Feb 22, 2005)

They shrinkwrap you when crashed. Very old cars esp the R32 models.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


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## Huskyman (Feb 9, 2010)

I thought about this long and hard when I was looking into buying an R32 back in 2011(boy did I miss the boat!) and looked into the crash worthiness of these cars. A Ruf style integrated would be a big leap forward, but remember the 911 is a strong and stiff car without it, and the cage is around £10,000 installed AFAIK. As joshuaho96 says the MotoRex cars were modified to pass American crash safety, so would it be worth contacting them to see if they could help?


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## joshuaho96 (Jul 14, 2016)

Huskyman said:


> I thought about this long and hard when I was looking into buying an R32 back in 2011(boy did I miss the boat!) and looked into the crash worthiness of these cars. A Ruf style integrated would be a big leap forward, but remember the 911 is a strong and stiff car without it, and the cage is around £10,000 installed AFAIK. As joshuaho96 says the MotoRex cars were modified to pass American crash safety, so would it be worth contacting them to see if they could help?


It's important to note that Motorex is defunct now. JK Technologies was the company that did the actual work here and they have not been compelled by the government to release the technical data package for FMVSS + EPA compliance.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

Scary, Those pictures are truly shocking FRRACER. I do hope that all those involved in that accident were Ok.



lightspeed said:


> *As for cages it depends if your head can easily hit the bar. Tall people, skylines and cages aren't a good mix.*


True...We Humans don't react well to side impact head trauma but that's not the only concern lightspeed. I thought long and hard about fitting a Cage to mine back last year _(even contacted members on here who'd fitted ones to their Skylines for their opinions)_ but I ultimately decided against going for one in the end. 

I know that Roll Cages do save lives but all the multi-point bolt-in versions I've seen available for Our GT-R's seem to have the vital bolt in parts located in what on some can become quite flimsy areas of the Skyline cockpit. 

You only have to look closely at the front of an R33/R34 that's been jacked up poorly on the front lower Sill area to see how the incorrect loading weakens the Shell's integrity as the Sill lip gets crushed, the inner Sill bottom distorts and the Floor Pan splits spreading both upwards/inwards destroying the water repelling duties of the Factory applied primers/paints/seam-sealers in the process. 

Given a very short amount of time, water ingress turns everything hidden inside the vicinity of the Sills crushed Jacking Point into a crusty rusty mess with little to no impact strength left! 

This corrosive badness all happens within inches of what would be one of a Roll Cages main bolt in point locations _(and of course Our feet too!)_ which eventually lead me to question the crash worthy effectiveness of such a safety device retro fitted to such an old vehicle. 

The rear wheel well bolt-in locations seem better but alas I do wonder about the overall bolt-in cages effectiveness if the first front bolt-in location would most likely punch through the Cars flimsy floor pan in a crash situation....

For me, a proper multi-point professional weld in Roll Cage like what's seen in high end Motorsport _(WRC/V8 Supercars/DTM/BTCC etc)_ would be the only safe option *BUT* these would be hugely expensive, massively intrusive to the cars cabin restricting in and out movements and thus destroying the vehicles practicality of being a Family friendly everyday Road Car. 

JM2PW!


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## jimjam92 (Dec 19, 2016)

Wow, these pictures are a real eye opener :O


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## alexcrosse (May 7, 2014)

Bolt in roll cages don't just 'punch through the floor'. You weld in 3mm steel load spreading plates. It's not really any different to a weld in cage once you've done that. 

See the four spreading plates I fabricated for a 205 shell a few years ago. Also included front towers out of 3mm for the front legs.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

alexcrosse said:


> *Bolt in roll cages don't just 'punch through the floor'. You weld in 3mm steel load spreading plates. It's not really any different to a weld in cage once you've done that.*


Your Car may come with these vital safety features fitted alexcrosse but I have seen a few Skylines over the years which did not have any extra reinforcement done to these areas.... 

I guess its ultimately all down to who fits them and if they are just for show or for functionality at the end of the day?!


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Makes you wonder why people remove the few safety devices fitted.


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## Mofa (Jan 4, 2017)

Anyone know if any chassis bracing of the sort lets say from Ultra Racing provide any help in avoiding to place the engine on your lap after a frontal collision?


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

Unknown, but the front wing braces might conceivably shear off the door hinge bolts!


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## joshuaho96 (Jul 14, 2016)

I would really be very careful about safety reinforcements. If you don't know how all the elements interact in a crash it's possible to have unintended consequences.

The interest in JK technologies' modifications is because they had to validate against actual and very expensive crash tests. At least 3 R33 coupes were sacrificed to crash tests and based upon that data they developed additional reinforcements to pass crash testing.

If anything in a serious collision the only thing left standing should be the safety cell. Crumple zones need to absorb energy.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

*Its truly shocking how many bolts shear off on old Japanese vehicles...*



lightspeed said:


> *Unknown, but the front wing braces might conceivably shear off the door hinge bolts!*


This is why I've long since got into the habit of replacing all of the chocolate strength Japanese OEM nuts and bolts with known 8.8 items when completing any modifications on my Own Skyline. 



Also adding copious amounts of sealers, paints, rust protection and wax-oyl doesn't hurt either IMHO especially if you use the cars all year round!

JM2PW!


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## Mofa (Jan 4, 2017)

I'm pretty sure it's not the nuts and bolts' stength that aid in absorbing the energy released in a collision, but more like the design of the frame/chassis itself.

Modern cars use the same nuts n bolts just as before, but using much smarter design using the same materials aid in absorbing most of the impact energy which is what gives the passengers a bit more time to come to a complete stop.

Remember, its not the speed that kills, it's the sudden halt to 0.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

Mofa said:


> *I'm pretty sure it's not the nuts and bolts' stength that aid in absorbing the energy released in a collision, but more like the design of the frame/chassis itself.*




I'm under no illusion to just how weak the front of the R33's/R34's are compared to much more modern vehicles....I also feel that the chocolate bolts that hold these flimsy panels together don't help matters either. 

If you can easily shear the heads off of half of your Cars bolts after repeatedly soaking these in penetrating fluids with just a few Nm of Torque whilst trying to undo them, What good would they be in an impact/sheering crash situation?! :nervous:



Mofa said:


> *Modern cars use the same nuts n bolts just as before, but using much smarter design using the same materials aid in absorbing most of the impact energy which is what gives the passengers a bit more time to come to a complete stop.*


From my Own personal experience, German built stuff from the 1980's and 1990's use bolts that are much better quality than the Japanese versions from the same era. 



That snapped Differential bolt came off my Own Skyline when I upgraded to poly bushes. Its not the only one to have snapped during my Ownership.


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## Mofa (Jan 4, 2017)

Those are facts i can't argue with. I mean we can't compare a rusty bolt with a new one. I suppose it does give some piece of mind to change all/most of the rusty bolts.
But it does have to work together. If the design doesn't allow the chassis to soak up the energy during a collision, a stronger bolt wouldn't help either. The design is only as strong as it's weakest link


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

*Light duty Wing bolts through to Suspension bolts have all sheared off on me....*



Mofa said:


> *I mean we can't compare a rusty bolt with a new one. *


That's the really scary thing Mofa, _(if you look closely at my picture above)_ That Differential bolt wasn't rusty in the area where it failed. It looked as if it had somehow stretched along the threads and when I came to undo it in preparation for upgrading to poly bushes, It just snapped...corrosion was *NOT* the issue! 

My car doesn't have massive power either. If an everyday road car with a smidge over 500bhp can do that to the two decades old OEM Nissan Bolts, Whats a car with double the horsepower doing to theirs? Its not the kind of thing you'd want letting go whilst having fun when the throttle pedals buried deep into the carpet.....


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## Mofa (Jan 4, 2017)

If all the bolts broke up like that, i would also be seriously worried!
Could this be a single event where the bolt was simply overtorqued? Or caused by fatigue over the years?
In any case, it's something to think of and it surely pays to replace the accessible bolts with new solid ones


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## jimjam92 (Dec 19, 2016)

I've seen first hand how much Skylines cave in in a relatively minor side impact incident, seriously no strength there at all. Can't imagine front is much better.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Euro NCAP turns 20 - The crash testing that changed the industry - Continental Tyres: Vision Zero

Did Nissan ever carry out crash tests on the R32/33/34 models? If they did there must be some pictures out there..


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

Mofa said:


> *If all the bolts broke up like that, i would also be seriously worried!
> Could this be a single event where the bolt was simply overtorqued? Or caused by fatigue over the years?*


Sadly I cannot say 100% for sure as I'm the third UK Owner and can only assume what's been done or not done before my Ownership Mofa. I first encountered this problem when trying to undo many of the 10mm headed bolts on the front panel and inner wings. Almost half failed without exerting massive forces!

What I can say though is that I recently went to remove the rear seat belts from my Skyline. Same practice as before, 1) Crawl underneath vehicle to wire brush the threads of the bolts sticking through the rear of the vehicles floor pan. 2) Wire brush said threads and soak thoroughly with a penetrating fluid. 3) Go inside the car and proceed to remove said M8 thread - 14mm headed bolt and.....even after patiently taking my time with a long bar and impact socket the one bolt exposed the the elements initially stretched, before twisting significantly and eventually it failed leaving me to drill out the remains and retap the floor.

Ok this bolts been in the same position/place on my Nissan for the last two decades but I know for a fact that I could attempt the same job on my 29 year old Senator and not have an issue....

_Bloody Japanese Cars and their inferior chocolate strength bolts!!!!_:runaway:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

The metal at the front of Skylines is just to hang stuff off.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

moleman said:


> *The metal at the front of Skylines is just to hang stuff off.*


The rest of the sheet metal after the front ain't that impressive either Iain!

I was unimpressed with the lack of strength of the floor area where my Cars aftermarket alloy Do-Luck floor bars were located so stripped out the interior, fabbed some reinforcing plates and welded them into/onto the vehicle. _I personally didn't think that their original attachment via the OEM Nissan drain plug holes was a very good fitment idea....Lord only knows what they would've done in a crash situation??_

At least now these are more tied into the sills/jacking points and other surrounding areas!

JM2PW!


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## joshuaho96 (Jul 14, 2016)

This is a major thread bump, but very little info is out there. I did some digging and it turns out the modifications for crash safety are public. The relevant NHTSA documents are here: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=NHTSA-1999-5507-0015

The summary is something like: knee shock padding where dummies contacted the car in a front crash test, seat track bracing, seat belt retractor retaining bolts, side impact bars for the B pillar. No modifications done to improve overlap collision safety. Keep in mind this was for the R33 coupes only, the tests for the R34 and R32 were never done (this is the Motorex fiasco).

Small overlap collisions are still going to be very deadly, just part of the risk driving an older car like this.

If you read part B, it details the collision tests done. No moderate overlap testing, just frontal impact. Don't get into an overlap collision in these cars, even modern cars don't do great in small overlap tests.

Edit: Keywords in case the link goes dead: Memorandum submitted re: Import Eligibility Petition Nissan Skyline Passenger Cars - Supporting Documents. NHTSA-1999-5507-0015 U.S. DOT/NHTSA - Import Eligibility Petition Nissan Skyline Passenger Cars - Supporting Documents


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## jnoor (Feb 24, 2016)

Awesome info Josh.

Makes you really think of the consequences next time you give is the beans when driving, especially if theres quite a few cars on the road.

I had a most minor hit from the back a few months back but my neck felt it the next day. Seeing how these cars fair in a collision means any impact at all from any direction will just result in the occupants feeling the entirety of it.

And the image Younes put up is of a R33... I can only imagine how a R32 would have looked in the same accident.


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## lightspeed (Jul 11, 2002)

Just need to use primary safety system when driving old cars.......

Driver***8217;s brain and eyes.

Worth far more than all the airbags and crash testing.


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## joshuaho96 (Jul 14, 2016)

lightspeed said:


> Just need to use primary safety system when driving old cars.......
> 
> Driver***8217;s brain and eyes.
> 
> Worth far more than all the airbags and crash testing.


Sometimes all the caution in the world won't save you, lots of awful drivers on the road staring at their phones.

The complete package of crash safety modifications doesn't amount to a ton of things, a little bit of foam here and a few reinforcements in critical areas seems to be sufficient based upon real-world crash testing. If it's just a few hours of time for a body shop to do the necessary work it would be a decent mod I think.


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

joshuaho96 said:


> *This is a major thread bump, but very little info is out there. I did some digging and it turns out the modifications for crash safety are public. The relevant NHTSA documents are here: https://www.regulations.gov/document?D=NHTSA-1999-5507-0015
> *


Very nice find there and extremely interesting too! :bowdown1:

I've been on the fence about fitting a cage to my car for quite some time now and I think this document tipped the balance and convinced my nagging doubts enough to get one. 



US DOT NHTSA said:


> *Vehicle Year/Make/Model/Body Stvlc -
> a 1999 A. I. Craft GTR 2 Door*


_Shame they cannot tell the difference between a RWD single turbo 2.5L Spec II GTS-t and a 4WD 2.6L Twin Turbo GT-R but I suppose I'm splitting hairs with this one!_


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

jnoor said:


> Awesome info Josh.
> 
> Makes you really think of the consequences next time you give is the beans when driving, especially if theres quite a few cars on the road.
> 
> ...


I remember a good while ago on here someone had an accident in their R32 where they t-boned a lamp post IIRC. Their missus (I think) was in the passengers seat....

The passengers sill was pretty much pushed up to the transmission tunnel.....



Very sobering indeed....


Edit:- Just had a look...it was Jay (blueskygtr) who had the side impact with his missus. Unfortunately the pics are gone but if you didn't see them at the time, it was VERY nasty!!!


TT


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## jimjam92 (Dec 19, 2016)

tarmac terror said:


> I remember a good while ago on here someone had an accident in their R32 where they t-boned a lamp post IIRC. Their missus (I think) was in the passengers seat....
> 
> The passengers sill was pretty much pushed up to the transmission tunnel.....
> 
> ...


Presumably she received some fairly serious injuries? Hope she made a full recovery.


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