# What does 600bhp feel like?



## xaero1 (Feb 9, 2004)

I remember when I was first thinking about getting an R32 GTR and 400bhp was the holy grail. Nice, safe, and much more power than your average road car. 

When I got my car it was running standard boost, so taking it up to 1bar was good fun and it took a couple of days to get used to the power. But now, I'm so used to it the car just isn't as fun anymore. I say fun, i mean it doesn't excite me as much. Only on occasion do I plant my foot and the acceleration catches me by surprise.

Of course for anybody not used to 400bhp it feels like lightening. 

So, I've been thinking about power upgrades and different levels the car could be taken to. I'm told that 500bhp on GTSS turbos is 'perfect' for fast road use, but then why do these owners inevitably swap their turbos 6 months later for 2530s? 

So I want to know what 600bhp feels like. I'm selling my car this year in favour of being debt free so i can save pennies and buy a more powerful car next year. 

Does 600bhp scare you everytime you use your right foot in anger on the roads? Or do you quickly get used to it? I've seen a few 600bhp cars for sale recently and the comments have been "It's time to scare somebody else" or "this car feels like it wants to kill me"

Is this true? Does a 600bhp Skyline feel genuinely unsafe on the roads, or do you smile like a kid every time you plant your right foot? 

Now I've been in a couple of 600bhp cars. Robbie took me in his R34 at Brunters a few years back and it felt really fast. Although I can't help but think on an open air strip the cars don't seem as fast as they do on public roads.

What is it like as the driver then? Does it feel like you have to learn to drive all over again? Or do you get used to it really quickly and crave even more power? 

Be honest!
Cheers.


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## Default (Oct 17, 2007)

> you smile like a kid every time you plant your right foot?


Hell yeah!



> Does it feel like you have to learn to drive all over again?


Depends what you've come from really... but the thin line between going well and going off the road is very thin.
I personally love it mate. It is insane, every time I go on the open road I am grinning ear to ear when I come to overtake. The closing speed is nuts and you are faster than 99% of cars on the road  I think everyone should have one!


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

xaero1 said:


> So I want to know what 600bhp feels like. I'm selling my car this year in favour of being debt free so i can save pennies and buy a more powerful car next year.
> 
> Does 600bhp scare you everytime you use your right foot in anger on the roads? Or do you quickly get used to it? I've seen a few 600bhp cars for sale recently and the comments have been "It's time to scare somebody else" or "this car feels like it wants to kill me"


I've never owned a 600hp car, though I've been in and driven a few around or over that power and I currently think 600hp is around the "speed spot" for street GTRs. Insanely fast, but not TOO out of control. I think I could stay amused with something like that for ages - you have to remember if you are getting tempted to get greedy that after that point things can get very expensive and less accessible day to day. 

Unless you get a big motor  (pre-empts RIPS chiming in)


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## Kanzen (Aug 2, 2007)

I think it depends how the car is setup, and not just the engine but the brakes and chassis too.

Mine is very very smooth and easy to drive around town, but when you plant your foot you need to pay attention because in a bat of an eye it's time to change gear. The Brembo's wash off the speed effortlessly, and a nicely setup chassis (soon to be changed for more track use) puts the power down well.

I've been in some 600 odd bhp cars that are just plain scary and a real handful with wild and unusable power bands. That's fun in itself but there's nothing quite like something that does it so effortlessly and without any fuss. 

Aki's R33 has GT-SS turbos and that is fantastic to drive too. Very responsive and whilst it doesn't have the top end power of 2530'S it makes up for it in low end torque.

I got used to mine quite quickly, and really don't want any more power. It's perfectly balanced, which is exactly what I wanted.

Saying that I wouldn't turn down a big power GT-R as a second car for insane straight line speed now and again. Bean took me out in his R34 (now Hyrevs) and that was something else.


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## plkettle (Feb 2, 2004)

i have been running 600hp for over 2 years now and tbh i now think i need 150hp more as after 6 months it honestly seems like it used to when it was "only" 450..

My boost controller is set to a few different levels and the 500hp setting feels far too slow for me now (i know it sounds really stupid but its true)

the extra difference that 100hp gives is a real feeling of being pushed back hard in your seat and that the car is actually a "supercar" now.
Because of the GTR's 4wd system it can easily handle the power and as long as you get used to the limits of traction and how it behaves (*best done on a track*) then its surprisingly easy to drive hard.

I would say though that unless you have the tryes/suspension/brakes to match the power then you are going to have trouble or a nasty accident

the above is no different with 500hp though so you are going to need to get everything addressed if you value your life.

with an R32 @ 600hp you should have the following IMO (as minimums) to keep the car "safe" and up to the job of handling the power on a road:

Uprated brake calipers/disks/pads/master cylinder/braided brake lines
Coilover suspension (6kg spring or harder)
255 wide tryes (and not nangkang ditchfinders either)

You also have to be a pretty good driver and specifically know how fast to enter/exit a corner or accelerate hard according to the conditions at the time or it all means absolutly nothing.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Also dont forget a stock 26 on stock turbos and 1bar wont really be 400bhp, probably more like 360-380.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Having been without mine now for a good few years I have to say I would be a liar if I felt I could jump back in it and be as familiar with it as I was. Do you get used to it, yes, was it good to use day to day ... again depends on the setup I would say deffinatly yes but the triple plate was awefull and I hated it. Getting in and driving somewhere was like running a marathon when you just fancied a stroll.

What does 600 bhp feel like, it feels good and the one thing that always amused me and scared the hell out of my passangers was simply this ... if you are in a true 600bhp+ car you dont reach for the dash, you dont reach for the door handle you put your hands in the air and reach for the roof.

Not so bad when you have a steering wheel to hang onto but if you dont when it comes up on song it lifts you out of the seat and upwards, its a brilliant feeling as you feel all your weight just go vertically up into your chest ... takes your breath away -chuckles-

I remember flooring it 80 kleptons/hour along a straight road with a friend in the passanger seat, I was looking at him, he was listening and watching it paint two perfect black lines down the road as we very rapidly approaced 170 and I asked him "Ross, does it feel fast, I cant tell anymore"

His reply was along the lines of "are you f"*kin insane!"

I dont think it would be as frightening in a 4WD version but I will tell you soon enough and yes, things come up very fast, you run out of road so quickly ... watch motorway slip roads, you can easly enter at a very high speed and not realise you are doing twice the speed of the other people on the road.

Do it!!


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## xaero1 (Feb 9, 2004)

I agree about Skylines being able to handle the power. When I took mine on track last year I was amazed at how much further I could push it. When I look for a more powerful car then I'll definitely get one that's got the brake and suspension mods to match. 

So for fast road and occasional track use would you recommend the 500bhp mark or 600bhp mark?


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## Nocturnal (Nov 5, 2004)

I just took my car to Lydden Hill over this weekend. This is a track that have everything stack against my car.

I have a big old laggy single turbo (T45S), full weight road car, GTR

The track is a 1 mile track with all corners, there isn't much straight.

I have tune the turbo down to about 1.3-1.4 bar to reduce the load on the engine, so I am making about 600bhp and less torque also.

What I found out is how fast and terrifying a 600bhp GTR is, especially around a wide high speed corner. Coming down the hill, hard on the brake into second. Foot on the gas out of the corner, and the GTR will act in between oversteering and front wheel gripping at the same time. What that means is the car is moving sideway and forward at the same time, resulting in a rather unstable yet natural feeling... but really fast and also applying all the power to the ground effectively!!! After the track day, I have a new found respect for my car, thats for sure.

Maybe it is because this is my first time on track, but it is getting to trust the car. Plant your foot down, keep your steering straight, and let the car handle the rest... at least that is what it feels like. I LOVE IT. :thumbsup:

On the road, it is a bit different as you cannot just boot it. You don't have a just spin the turbo up for a bit blast... You have normal town driving, or 1/4 drag acceleration... maybe that is the reason why it feels like it want to kill you because normal road with traffic are just not ment for 1/4 drag acceleration.


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

600bhp is scary fun I like to call it,no matter how well tuned you car is,on the street you better be paying attention,but speed and power is addictive,so inevitably you start thinking "maybe I need more".
The smile and satisfaction part is best described here.(Do you guys get this ad.)
YouTube - Kate Walsh in 2008 Cadillac CTS Ad


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

LOL - it depends on your tuner...


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Sean,

Is your R32 up and running?

Phil


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## freakazoid3 (Jan 19, 2008)

Personnaly i think that power is addictive, when you have say 400bhp it feels fast for a couple off weeks, maybe months or maybe evan for a whole year. But when you're getting more and more brave it starts to feel more and more boring when giving it some stick. I have the same on motorbikes aswell. Started out with a 125cc and now (after more then 11 bikes)own a fireblade. But i am getting bored with this one aswell, although it hits 290 km/h and you start to floor it more regularly on public roads evnethough there's always the chance off getting f*cked by the police...
My point being, it never stops, unless you can't afford a higher spec vehicle.
So if you like cars and want to spend money, i say just buy one with more bhp, as it will make you feel like a kid all over again and whatever is on your mind, when you floor it, it'll put a big smile on you're face and hopefully scare the cr*p out off you


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Philip said:


> Sean,
> 
> Is your R32 up and running?
> 
> Phil


Well remembered. I'll get back to you on that one...


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

To be honest with you it feels very slow.


Mick


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## banzai g (Jan 5, 2007)

In comparison to what mick ?!!!!


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## P.J (Aug 20, 2004)

Hi,

When i had my engine built originally, i asked my tuner for an engine capable of 500 brake, for serveral reasons at the time of asking, (which i won't bore you with) i thought that was what i wanted, after that i had suspension, brakes, and gearbox mods to cope with this power, after this i realized i could handle more power, which i have done, with upgraded ecu, injectors and turbo's, so i would say in a R32 road car i would have 600 0ver 500 brake any day, providing you have the other mods to go with it, i think tyres also play an important role the biggest mistake i have made is not buying dunlop formula R's this time, as other tyres do not grip as well, and i am now having to get used to sliding a lot more in the dry, same old story you get what you pay for.

hope this helps.

PJ


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## kev gtr (Mar 14, 2007)

Crail Loser said:


> What does 600 bhp feel like, it feels good and the one thing that always amused me and scared the hell out of my passangers was simply this ... if you are in a true 600bhp+ car you dont reach for the dash, you dont reach for the door handle you put your hands in the air and reach for the roof.


If ever there was an iconic statement about 600bhp, this is it!


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

A genuine 600hp is enough for alot of people but I assure you once you've got 600 you'll want more, once you've got 750 you'll want more and once you've driven a 1200+hp GTR you have to accept that driving most GTRs will not give you the same 'buzz' ever again.

It all comes back to what your use to.

Imagine Reece Mgreggor (Heat treatments 7.5 second GTR) getting in one of our 1000hp street GTR's, he'd think it was very slow by comparison:bawling: , its all relative to what you are use to.

Rob


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Imagine Reece Mgreggor (Heat treatments 7.5 second GTR) getting in one of our 1000hp street GTR's, he'd think it was very slow by comparison:bawling: , its all relative to what you are use to.


Come on, at least nippy


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

In a 600bhp GTR, 3rd gear at 100mph feels the same as 2nd gear at 60mph in a stage 1 GTR.


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## hyrev (Apr 30, 2004)

Its Grrreat!


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## Default (Oct 17, 2007)

> 3rd gear at 100mph feels the same as 2nd gear at 60mph


Yeah they keep pulling further through the gears... top of fourth still goes... top of fifth still goes pretty good too.


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Hmmm 600hp GTRs still feel like they start losing their zest in 4th and above. 600whp in a "GTSt" however feels a bit mental in 4th. Its the gear you start getting a bit of traction....


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## Default (Oct 17, 2007)

If they've both got 600 at the wheels then they go the same it's just a perception thing when you get traction... maybe also a bit of disappointment when you look up and see the GTR somewhere in the distance...  
But seriously 600 is great you should try for it - you won't regret it!


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Default said:


> If they've both got 600 at the wheels then they go the same it's just a perception thing when you get traction... maybe also a bit of disappointment when you look up and see the GTR somewhere in the distance...


Haha there are only 3 NZ street GTRs I know off the top of my head that have done quicker 1/4 mile times than so I find it very unlikely. When traction has been attained (thank god for drag radials) 600whp in 1360kg is always going to accelerate harder than 600whp in 1500kg.


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## Jebu (Jun 17, 2002)

I guess in the end it's relative.

My 32 is not quite 600bhp, but when driving a stock GTR it feels sluggish and slow.

Like wat RIPS & Mick said, I would imagine someone with a 800 or 1000bhp GTR would be yawning driving a 600BHP GTR.


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## ITSt (Apr 28, 2006)

Crail Loser said:


> ..... What does 600 bhp feel like ..... you dont reach for the dash, you dont reach for the door handle you put your hands in the air and reach for the roof. .....


One of the all time classic descriptions ..... I remember Marc telling me this when he took my GTR out after the rebuild with Dennis in the passenger seat and me in the back. I recall thinking to myself "mmmmmm ..... yes, that's something to aspire to"  

By the way Marc, I must be due a visit soon, not spent some money at your goodie shop for a few months now :chuckle:


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Always welcome Ian, I think everyone just took Monday off to bring in cars -chuckle- we are so busy I could weep but are making headway slowly but surely.

Be nice to get Deep Blue in and finish her off, she will really come alive with the new AFMs and Injectors.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Personally I would rather have 500hp with more bottom end and less lag, than 600 with more topend....It is all relative.

....Usable power is much better that a bulshit topend dyno figure


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## Nocturnal (Nov 5, 2004)

Sub Boy said:


> Personally I would rather have 500hp with more bottom end and less lag, than 600 with more topend....It is all relative.
> 
> ....Usable power is much better that a bulshit topend dyno figure


Thats what I thought, but then on my car I decide to go for absoulute power than response.

That was why my track day really change my view. My first session I have an instructor with me, and he say "3rd gear, push it, push it". The problem is the paddle is already on the ground, but there is nothing at 3000rpm.

On my second session, because my brake fluid was boiling quite fast, I decide to drop into 2nd on all the corners and use engine to help brake the car. What I then found out was just how powerful and responsive the car is the long as it is within its powerband... Just apply the throttle early in mid corner and anticipate the turbo lag, then the car drive so smooth.

So for people who say single are laggy and have no bottom end power, my advice.... "Drop a gear!!! It's that sample."

It really solved ALOT of problems... You just have to drive to your car.


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Howsie said:


> Well remembered. I'll get back to you on that one...


Maybe we could compare notes ...

Phil


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Sub Boy said:


> ....Usable power is much better that a bulshit topend dyno figure


Couldn't agree more, the real challenge is getting a good balance of both and when you do it makes for a very nice ride.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Couldn't agree more, the real challenge is getting a good balance of both and when you do it makes for a very nice ride.


Yup, I have 500hp at the hubs....What I'm looking for is even more response, So a set of tomei 260 cams will be joining the the 2530's that are already on the car, and the usual talk to the tuner will be "tune it for torque"

....And if it still isn't enough, I might have to give you a ring Rob for a big block!

swapsies for some home/car audio? LOL


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## roadie (Feb 6, 2006)

For me, around 700 is the sweet spot. I went from gt-ss (awesome btw) to a single gt4088r. Still intimidates me after 1 1/2 years.


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## Crail Loser (Jan 11, 2003)

Sub Boy said:


> Personally I would rather have 500hp with more bottom end and less lag, than 600 with more topend....It is all relative.
> 
> ....Usable power is much better that a bulshit topend dyno figure


I think, well -chuckle- I would hope, that goes without saying on a road car. I cant think of many tuners now who feel there objective/task is just to create a big number.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

....A little clutch kick can help make a large turbo spool a little quicker exiting a corner..  

Like some have already said, I prefer to squeeze every last drop of performance. GT-SS and such make for very usable & fun trackday / fast road cars :thumbsup: 
A lot of power can mean larger bills when the transmission breaks, etc. Guess I'm not a fan of lag either!


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## Vipes R32 GTR (May 19, 2007)

ive got a 600bhp r32gtr and i love it with the respones but it so naughty at the rear it really keeps me on my toes and power is unbeliveable but when i drive my m8s 800bhp r33gtr that is a totally diff kettle of fish as soon as it hits 5000 rpm its like a rocket and there is no way u can stay in 1 lane u start getting tunnel vision it really is a awesome machine but this car doesnt slide all over the place like mine it feels very heavy around bends if u was to ask me which 1 i would like more i couldnt tell u i love both but i think if u feel like you r getting bored of the power and feel like it aint responding as good as it use to then buy screama pipes it always makes u feel u r in something amazing 
Nissan Skyline GT-R R33 - Turbo & High-Tech Performance Magazine


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Sub Boy said:


> "tune it for torque"


Does that actually mean anything though. All a typical dyno operator will be doing is optomising fuel and ignition. 

If they get it right you will get good low down power and top end anything else is just not set up right.

Unless you are going to ask you tuner to swing the cam timing to alter the torque curve the acutual tune will make no difference unless its wrong.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I prefer the turbo kick and the sudden tunnel vision as the blood gets sucked into the back of your skull. My bikes are just as quick (the 800cc as quick, the 1200cc quicker) as my car, but they just don't feel that fast because the power is so progressive. But my first ride in a 2530-turboed GT-R was dead-frightening and left me shaking with adrenaline for hours. Same with my first BMW K1200S ride. But you get accustomed to the power, and learn to control it.

You get used to 600bhp if you use it a lot, but for a weekend car it can keep up its scare-value. I remember coming home after my first road-mapping session, and thinking that the car was too scary for me. Then I cranked the boost up from 1.5 to 1.9 bar:chuckle: I still tend to let out a "whoa nellie!" when I've spooled up the car correctly and it shoots off like a rocket.

As long as I can still edge out most factory supercars, I think that's sufficient power for the road. I ride bikes exclusively now and 5 out of 6 times I take my lighter 800cc bike - it's plenty quick enough to get to stupid fast speeds very quickly on the road.

One of my goals with my current engine overhaul is to optimise its performance so that I can be more competitive with a Carrera GT. It's sometimes easy to forget that we're only working with 2.6 liters!!


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## mifn21 (Mar 19, 2007)

Bikes just don't feel as fast as cars to me, and my R32 "only" puts out 360 at the wheels!


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## kjansch (May 8, 2005)

One thing no-one's mentioned yet is that it is possible to have the best of both worlds: the response of a GTSS based car and the power levels of something with bigger turbos. 

As far as I'm concerned most people don't realise quite how much can be unlocked from GTSS turbos, thinking that 500 is the limit. That's probably true if you don't set the rest of the car up properly, but with the cams done, good fueling (720cc/280lh and pressure regulator), good plugs, head and outlet gaskets, hard pipes, good induction and exhaust, and a good map on your PFC - 600 is entirely possible from GTSS (at approx 1.4 or 1.5 bar). My car is currently running 1.2 bar on this set up, while I wait for a hard pipe kit, and it's already producing 520 at the fly (over 400 at the hubs). It should get very close to 600 once I stop the intercooler pipes popping off (at anything over 1.2bar!). Trouble is that going to 500 or above gets expensive; as not only should the brakes be up to the job, but you should really be thinking about various "reliability" upgrades too: oil-pump, sump extension, strengthened head bolts, strengthened timing belt, low-temp thermostat, bigger rad, twin plate clutch etc etc etc etc (I could go on!). 

But, damn it's worth it though. I know that she's not yet running 600, but she's SO responsive I doubt there's much that'll touch her on the road (except another Skyline of course).

The lovely thing is that she absolutely FLYS from _under_ 4000 revs. She's progressive and as a result very easy to drive (none of that turbo snap mid corner), and she just goes and goes and goes. Admittedly she doesn't have that lunatic shove in the back a big single gives, but to be honest I just get bored with all the gearing changing, and keeping the revs up that goes with bigs turbos.

I think that for the road well set-up GTSS are absolutely ideal, as responsive, if not more so, than stock turbos. 

I haven't lived with her long enough in this tune to have outgrown it, yet, but right now I honestly can't imagine wanting anything more on the road.

(Something that _seems_ to make sense to me, but that I don't actually know, is that given that the response is there from lower revs, _in theory_, a good GTSS setup running 550/600 should be more reliable than something that requires neck ringing to get the power, anyone have any opinions/experience of that?)


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

David said:


> Does that actually mean anything though. All a typical dyno operator will be doing is optomising fuel and ignition.
> 
> If they get it right you will get good low down power and top end anything else is just not set up right.
> 
> Unless you are going to ask you tuner to swing the cam timing to alter the torque curve the acutual tune will make no difference unless its wrong.


As you say....The fuel maps are sort of set, but yes adjusting cam timing and other bits to bring the curve down low.


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

Default said:


> If they've both got 600 at the wheels then they go the same it's just a perception thing when you get traction... maybe also a bit of disappointment when you look up and see the GTR somewhere in the distance...
> But seriously 600 is great you should try for it - you won't regret it!


thats why ya hook up a switch to the top left fuse in the fuse box under the dash board....:thumbsup:


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

kjansch said:


> One thing no-one's mentioned yet is that it is possible to have the best of both worlds: the response of a GTSS based car and the power levels of something with bigger turbos.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned most people don't realise quite how much can be unlocked from GTSS turbos, thinking that 500 is the limit. That's probably true if you don't set the rest of the car up properly, but with the cams done, good fueling (720cc/280lh and pressure regulator), good plugs, head and outlet gaskets, hard pipes, good induction and exhaust, and a good map on your PFC - 600 is entirely possible from GTSS (at approx 1.4 or 1.5 bar). My car is currently running 1.2 bar on this set up, while I wait for a hard pipe kit, and it's already producing 520 at the fly (over 400 at the hubs). It should get very close to 600 once I stop the intercooler pipes popping off (at anything over 1.2bar!). Trouble is that going to 500 or above gets expensive; as not only should the brakes be up to the job, but you should really be thinking about various "reliability" upgrades too: oil-pump, sump extension, strengthened head bolts, strengthened timing belt, low-temp thermostat, bigger rad, twin plate clutch etc etc etc etc (I could go on!).
> 
> ...


Totally agree. the only bad thing is the gt-ss turbo's flatten out toward the very top end.. apart from that they're untouchable.. in a " street race these things are that responsive, that if you're racing a 600hp gt-r with a big single the race would be over when the big single comes into stride..

The only thing i could see that would be better is a 2.8L kit with hks gt-rs's or trust t517z's (10cm exhaust).. would spool like gt-ss's on an rb26 but have more power over the same rev range..


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## Dynamix (Nov 1, 2007)

Nocturnal said:


> > You just have to drive to your car.
> 
> 
> Thats the best bit of advice.. all setups react differently, and can be used differently on the track or raod..
> ...


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