# Car went up in smoke!!!



## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Hi everyone,
I think I got big problems with my 09 gtr. I was driving through Germany on the autobahn suddenly I heard a small bang an then it sounded like someone had poured a bag of bolts into the engine!!!! An a curtain of white smoke out the back of the car!!!! My heart sank!!! Good chance its gearbox, turbo, both!! Oil everywhere, all down the car !!! Gutted???
Anyone know a good gtr garage in Germany??? Don't really want Nissan as I know I'll need a mortgage for that!!!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

moved into a better section. Sounds ominous though. There is a tuner in Germany, Import Racing (Alex) http://importracing.de/

Mike


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

PM nurburgringgtr. There is a guy in Germany (Markus I believe) who looks after many of the GTRs there and is one of the biggest GTR tuners in Europe. He sorted out matthewk's GTR when it blew a clutch basket on the way back from the N24 trip. I'd say this is your best bet.

Good luck!


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Sounds like a rod has let go and put a hole in the block ( hopefully not )


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## Dave Ka (Aug 19, 2014)

Hi,

I would recommend Materialmord or Revolution Sports Car.

Depends on where you are located.

Cheers Dave


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## 5star (Nov 17, 2014)

terry lloyd said:


> Sounds like a rod has let go and put a hole in the block ( hopefully not )


This was my first though as well.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Thanks guys. Just got it to a local garage up on ramp. It's definitely the engine popped, big hole in o/s of the block!!
Anyone got a spare engine!!!???


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Simons GTR said:


> Thanks guys. Just got it to a local garage up on ramp. It's definitely the engine popped, big hole in o/s of the block!!
> Anyone got a spare engine!!!???


Ouch! Was it tuned?


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Yea, stage 4.25 ecutek. 650bhp. SVM in telford got 2012 engine complete, £15k fitted all in!! Ouch!!! There go my holidays for a while!!!


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## rfo5 (Nov 10, 2011)

*engine*

Sorry to hear about this. You have a few options:
1. Contact svm
2. Buy second hand engine
Albert at knightracer has one for sale and matt 
has one for sale in the sale section.
I hope this of some help and good luck


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

Hope you get it sorted. You maybe able to get it sorted in Germany if it is a blown engine.

Who looked after it? Hope you all get it sorted mate. I had similar issue, horrible experience.

B


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

that really is awful luck, it's bad enough that this would happen anyway but for it to happen abroad is a kicker, I would go back to SVM and get it investigated.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Defo contact SVM before you do anything else. Did you have the work done or the previous owner?


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

shit luck, shows it can happen at any stage of tune tbh!

what about this engine, you could haggle as it's been for sale for a while, might save you 3-5k on the one you quoted- offer Him 10k, and must be under 1k to fit @ svm?
£11,500
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/175641-11-vr38dett-complete-stock-engine-transmission-530-bhp.html



BKaradakov said:


> I haven't been much online lately and just saw that I haven't updated the thread. Just a quick FYI, the transmission is sold and the engine is still for sale. Looking for around £11500.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

No sorry, I've not explained that very well. I haven't had the engine done by SVM, they have an engine for sale for it, Amar there said he can supply & fit complete for £15k.
Not sure wat to do??


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

Simons GTR said:


> No sorry, I've not explained that very well. I haven't had the engine done by SVM, they have an engine for sale for it, Amar there said he can supply & fit complete for £15k.
> Not sure wat to do??


Go to whoever looks after your car as it needs investigation, who is the tuner?

£15k for engine replacement is excessive in my opinion. I've had to replace mine and got it considerably less than that.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

What Buzz says.

Speak to who looks after your car before running off and paying over the odds with someone you haven't used before.


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

I have just gone to Stage 4.25 on MY14!!! Should I be worried?

Who done the your stage 4.25?


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

No you shouldn't be worried, if it's mapped properly then it should cause you no grief at all.


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## EAndy (Dec 13, 2011)

Out of interest what mileage was the engine on.

Just wondering if this is can be caused by the oil starvation issue that can occur. I had an engine flush due to this.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

EAndy said:


> Out of interest what mileage was the engine on.
> 
> Just wondering if this is can be caused by the oil starvation issue that can occur. I had an engine flush due to this.


Interesting, wasn't aware of an oil starvation issue. Any more info on this?


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

AdnanK said:


> Interesting, wasn't aware of an oil starvation issue. Any more info on this?


Also interested in more info on this. 

The early 09 ones seem to be the ones spitting rods? Have there been many other failures on MY11+?


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## EAndy (Dec 13, 2011)

Unfortunately I'm not very technically minded when it comes to cars etc, hence I put my trust in INDYs to look after them but in short from what I was lead to believe was;

When the engine start to get higher miles on them (mines passed 40k) sludge can build up at the bottom of the timing chain stopping flow and causing oil starvation or something along those lines I believe.

As said I'm not that technically minded but I'm sure it was something along those lines. 

The INDY basically stated they'd rather an engine flush / clean for sake of extra few hours than potentially a dead engine (as cars under warranty). It posed no expense to me so I guess there was some valid reason behind mechanics carrying this out rather than pulling a fast one.


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

EAndy said:


> Unfortunately I'm not very technically minded when it comes to cars etc, hence I put my trust in INDYs to look after them but in short from what I was lead to believe was;
> 
> When the engine start to get higher miles on them (mines passed 40k) sludge can build up at the bottom of the timing chain stopping flow and causing oil starvation or something along those lines I believe.
> 
> ...


One of the reasons why it's sensible to do regular oil changes and not let the oil become contaminated, I still stick to 6 month servicing which means oil gets changed regularly.


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## Brad1979 (May 26, 2012)

Do litchfield do engine flush also what's involved?


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Brad1979 said:


> Do litchfield do engine flush also what's involved?


I'd be very surprised if this is necessary. Just make sure you change the oil regularly, more so if the car is tuned.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

AdnanK said:


> I'd be very surprised if this is necessary. Just make sure you change the oil regularly, more so if the car is tuned.


You'll be surprised then..

Even cars that frequent tracks and change oil often can have this problem. Was speaking to one of the chaps at litchfield who explained that they replace a valve (takes a couple of hours) which helps massively and improves the oil consumption. Don't know technical details but I believe them.

Back to the OP - any update?!


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

buzzysingh said:


> You'll be surprised then..
> 
> Even cars that frequent tracks and change oil often can have this problem. Was speaking to one of the chaps at litchfield who explained that they replace a valve (takes a couple of hours) which helps massively and improves the oil consumption. Don't know technical details but I believe them.
> 
> Back to the OP - any update?!


Really? Just that when I did my research on the car there wasn't much mention of this "issue", does this affect all MY's?


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

AdnanK said:


> Really? Just that when I did my research on the car there wasn't much mention of this "issue", does this affect all MY's?


It's not a MAJOR issue, just would be good for a car that's done 30k miles etc.

Easy to do, ask your tuner.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

buzzysingh said:


> Easy to do, ask your tuner.


Nissan is my tuner, so to speak. Once out of warranty and I tune it, I'll ask 

Also, wonder if the chap who crossed 100,000 miles had this modified valve fitted.


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## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I have some oil issues with my car, I burn 2 litres of fuel in a track day.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

AdnanK said:


> Nissan is my tuner, so to speak. Once out of warranty and I tune it, I'll ask
> 
> Also, wonder if the chap who crossed 100,000 miles had this modified valve fitted.


It's not a modified valve, it's just the OEM part that gets clogged over time.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

buzzysingh said:


> It's not a modified valve, it's just the OEM part that gets clogged over time.


Ah I see.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

Argh, terrible news, hope it gets sorted and for less than £15k!

If only it had happened 10 days ago, I just sold a very near complete MY09 for around similar money you're going to pay for an engine.

What's that place in the Netherlands that are always selling cat cars?


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Matthew, I thought of you when I was chatting with the chap at Litchfields (Tim) with Buzz when he mentioned about this valve. I had meant to drop you a pm but it slipped my mine. Apologies.

He said that if you are experiencing higher oil consumption then this is the first thing to check / replace / clean as what happens is it gets clogged which puts higher pressure on the rest of the oil circuit. This can then push push oil past rings or other places where it gets consumed. Particularly when repeatedly accelerating the car.

I intend to get this checked / changed on my next service as I have noticed mine increase a bit which whilst this means I get more frequent turnover of oil between services, if it can be avoided, then I think it should be.

To the OP - sorry to hear of this trouble. Hope you get a financially sensible solution.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

gtr mart said:


> Matthew, I thought of you when I was chatting with the chap at Litchfields (Tim) with Buzz when he mentioned about this valve. I had meant to drop you a pm but it slipped my mine. Apologies.
> 
> He said that if you are experiencing higher oil consumption then this is the first thing to check / replace / clean as what happens is it gets clogged which puts higher pressure on the rest of the oil circuit. This can then push push oil past rings or other places where it gets consumed. Particularly when repeatedly accelerating the car.
> 
> ...


Thank god your memory is a lot better than mine Martin!


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> Matthew, I thought of you when I was chatting with the chap at Litchfields (Tim) with Buzz when he mentioned about this valve. I had meant to drop you a pm but it slipped my mine. Apologies.
> 
> He said that if you are experiencing higher oil consumption then this is the first thing to check / replace / clean as what happens is it gets clogged which puts higher pressure on the rest of the oil circuit. This can then push push oil past rings or other places where it gets consumed. Particularly when repeatedly accelerating the car.
> 
> ...


Great explanation. Ill keep this in mind if mine starts to use oil in between services.


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## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks for looking out for me guys

Well I'm booked in at Litchfield this month to have the forge intercooler I bought form Vernon fitted (Bargain) and I'm also having the GT1R Air/Oil separator fitted I shall have them check this valve also.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Forged engine for sale here for £12,500:

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/363794-svm-950r.html

No affliliation, just offering another option.


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## Mrw (Aug 22, 2012)

buzzysingh said:


> It's not a modified valve, it's just the OEM part that gets clogged over time.


Is this the PCV pressure crank case valve , or something along those a lines that you refer to ??. I have been hearing about these getting block and using excess oil.


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

Simons GTR said:


> Hi everyone,
> I think I got big problems with my 09 gtr. I was driving through Germany on the autobahn suddenly I heard a small bang an then it sounded like someone had poured a bag of bolts into the engine!!!! An a curtain of white smoke out the back of the car!!!! My heart sank!!! Good chance its gearbox, turbo, both!! Oil everywhere, all down the car !!! Gutted???
> Anyone know a good gtr garage in Germany??? Don't really want Nissan as I know I'll need a mortgage for that!!!


Sorry to hear this.

What kind off load was the engine under at the time of your misfortune?

RPM/Gear no.


T


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

borat52 said:


> Forged engine for sale here for £12,500:
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/363794-svm-950r.html
> 
> No affliliation, just offering another option.


+1

Forged too!


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## Viper® (Oct 25, 2014)

gtr mart said:


> Matthew, I thought of you when I was chatting with the chap at Litchfields (Tim) with Buzz when he mentioned about this valve. I had meant to drop you a pm but it slipped my mine. Apologies.
> 
> He said that if you are experiencing higher oil consumption then this is the first thing to check / replace / clean as what happens is it gets clogged which puts higher pressure on the rest of the oil circuit. This can then push push oil past rings or other places where it gets consumed. Particularly when repeatedly accelerating the car.
> 
> ...


Interesting.
Mine uses around 1 liter of oil between services (4 months/10kkm/6kmiles)
Is that normal usage or should I look into this ?


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Map was done by svm at the same time as the injectors an intakes etc. It's done 36000 miles. Ian Litchfield said can do a rebuild for around 10k New block etc.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Simons GTR said:


> Map was done by svm at the same time as the injectors an intakes etc. It's done 36000 miles. Ian Litchfield said can do a rebuild for around 10k New block etc.


What torque was the car running before it blew?


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Car was on the autobahn at the time doing about 110mph in sixth gear outside lane. Not accelerating just cruising about 3500rpm I think.
Just a note guys, got European cover with RAC, wat a useless bunch of b******s!!! Left me sat there for 7hours!! Now they don't wanna take car home!! An I've had to sort my own onward travel as they said its not possible!! Thanks RAC!!!


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Sorry, Simon, you're only visiting Germany? Get the car repatriated and take your time. Speak to all the tuners and make educated decisions.

Mike


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Simons GTR said:


> Car was on the autobahn at the time doing about 110mph in sixth gear outside lane. Not accelerating just cruising about 3500rpm I think.
> Just a note guys, got European cover with RAC, wat a useless bunch of b******s!!! Left me sat there for 7hours!! Now they don't wanna take car home!! An I've had to sort my own onward travel as they said its not possible!! Thanks RAC!!!


Sounds like a bent rod, hence why I was wondering what torque the car was capped to by the tuner.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

Simons GTR said:


> Car was on the autobahn at the time doing about 110mph in sixth gear outside lane. Not accelerating just cruising about 3500rpm I think.
> Just a note guys, got European cover with RAC, wat a useless bunch of b******s!!! Left me sat there for 7hours!! Now they don't wanna take car home!! An I've had to sort my own onward travel as they said its not possible!! Thanks RAC!!!


Damn I have RAC euro cover 

As Mook said, take your time and speak to other tuners. I had exact same issue as you. PM me if you want more info on how I sorted


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Very unusual that it spat a rod whilst just cruising!

I think Buzz's car went pop when dropping gear and wot? But I suppose if a rod was already giving up, it could have gone at any speed/rpm/gear!

Feel for you mate. I have seen R35 engines on German Ebay for circa 8k euros before. Keep your eyes peeled now that you are there anyway. An engine swap shouldn't cost more than £1k so potentially you could be back up and running for under £8k. 

Let us know how you get on - but as said above, try not to rush and make emotional decisions! Explore all your options before committing to anything.


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

G2GUV said:


> Very unusual that it spat a rod whilst just cruising!
> 
> I think Buzz's car went pop when dropping gear and wot? But I suppose if a rod was already giving up, it could have gone at any speed/rpm/gear!
> 
> ...


I lowered to 5th, was around 4krpm, put foot down and boooom. Was looked after by SVM too who quoted similar prices for engine replacement.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

buzzysingh said:


> I lowered to 5th, was around 4krpm, put foot down and boooom. Was looked after by SVM too who quoted similar prices for engine replacement.


Buzzy, what level of tune was your old motor? HP/Torque?


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

SVM Stage 4.25. No HP/Torque figures.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

buzzysingh said:


> SVM Stage 4.25. No HP/Torque figures.


Stop me if this is a silly question, but how did SVM know if the torque was capped in the safer limit with out popping the car on a Dyno to see what the car was pushing post tune?

Just curious.


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

I presume they didn't until the went pop.

T


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Viper® said:


> Interesting.
> Mine uses around 1 liter of oil between services (4 months/10kkm/6kmiles)
> Is that normal usage or should I look into this ?




That's fine. I think the upper limit is 1 litre / 1000 miles.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

AdnanK said:


> Stop me if this is a silly question, but how did SVM know if the torque was capped in the safer limit with out popping the car on a Dyno to see what the car was pushing post tune?
> 
> Just curious.



I can't answer that, but can say they did some mapping on mine recently (stage 4.25 with the 80mm intakes) and it made 647bhp / 595lbft which I am delighted with. Smooth as silk to drive too.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Simons GTR said:


> Car was on the autobahn at the time doing about 110mph in sixth gear outside lane. Not accelerating just cruising about 3500rpm I think.


I don't think you would be at 3500rpm if you were cruising at 110, more like 4500 I would have thought?


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

RAC and AA have been rubbish for me before, Green Flag have been great in the UK (cut out the alarm in a 200SX so it would start where as Nissan quote dlots of money) never had to try Euro cover, I hope I don't have to


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> I can't answer that, but can say they did some mapping on mine recently (stage 4.25 with the 80mm intakes) and it made 647bhp / 595lbft which I am delighted with. Smooth as silk to drive too.


Those figures are pretty good, torque in the 'safer' end of the range.


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## SPEEDKING777 (Jul 17, 2014)

Makes me wonder about SVM reading this.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

SPEEDKING777 said:


> Makes me wonder about SVM reading this.


The OP has already spoken with Amar?


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

SPEEDKING777 said:


> I know that, what I'm trying to say is I've read a few threads now based on problems whilst being tuned by SVM


Exactly my thoughts.

T


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Tariq said:


> Exactly my thoughts.
> 
> T


Is it now confirmed that SVM tuned this car?

In all fairness - it is a 2009 car with 36k miles! Admittedly a safe/decent tune is paramount, but there could be other factors that played a part in this engine failure? Oil starvation? Sticky sensor? And so on. 

Was this car on Ecutek before stage 4.25 tune? I know SVM are Ecutek authorised now, but I thought their preferred platform was COBB?

Obviously this is a concern for anyone running stage 4.25. The OP is probably not in the right state of mind to be feeding us all the facts at this very moment, but more information will definately benefit us all. 

I myself am eager to know exactly how tq is measured and capped without dyno? Is this even possible? 

I look forward to 'more information' - all in good time off course.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> I myself am eager to know exactly how tq is measured and capped without dyno? Is this even possible?


What I know is that the same level of tune could give two different results on two different cars with the same mods as they all put out different power from factory, for reference my MY13 was 576/491. Therefore isn't it paramount to have the car Dyno'd during a tune to know where things are?


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

G2GUV said:


> Is it now confirmed that SVM tuned this car?
> 
> In all fairness - it is a 2009 car with 36k miles! Admittedly a safe/decent tune is paramount, but there could be other factors that played a part in this engine failure? Oil starvation? Sticky sensor? And so on.
> 
> ...



They have a Dyno don't they? They posted up photos of their new one about the same time a Litchfield built their Dyno Cell.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Vernonjones said:


> They have a Dyno don't they? They posted up photos of their new one about the same time a Litchfield built their Dyno Cell.


We don't know when the OP had his car tuned with SVM or if indeed they tuned it. Suggest we all take a step back and wait for the OP to confirm a few things etc.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Guy's Not tuned by SVM, we are trying to help and support.
KK


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Simons GTR said:


> Map was done by svm at the same time as the injectors an intakes etc.


See SVM's post above.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

There we go then Simples.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

For the record the original tune on cobb was done by SVM, circa 2013

Some time latter 2014 It was then changed over to Ecutek and Tuned by another 
It was then sold to the new owner in 2015 hopefully this information can set the record straight.. 

KK


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> For the record the original tune on cobb was done by SVM, circa 2013
> 
> Some time latter 2014 It was then changed over to Ecutek and Tuned by another
> It was then sold to the new owner in 2015 hopefully this information can set the record straight..
> ...


:thumbsup:


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

AdnanK said:


> What I know is that the same level of tune could give two different results on two different cars with the same mods as they all put out different power from factory, for reference my MY13 was 576/491. Therefore isn't it paramount to have the car Dyno'd during a tune to know where things are?


I dont think the base power output will matter when tuning.

You can have 600 BHP but will still only get what the tuning package offers, on a 4.25 

Unless you asked for it to be cranked up to it max output on the particular package.

T


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Tariq said:


> I dont think the base power output will matter when tuning.
> 
> You can have 600 BHP but will still only get what the tuning package offers, on a 4.25
> 
> ...


That's kinda true, mine original engine let go at 4000rpm on part throttle.


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## Bulldog11 (Aug 17, 2014)

G2GUV said:


> I have just gone to Stage 4.25 on MY14!!! Should I be worried?
> 
> Who done the your stage 4.25?


Im at 4.25 aswell mate. I'm the same don't know whether to be worried or not.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Bulldog11 said:


> Im at 4.25 aswell mate. I'm the same don't know whether to be worried or not.


Send your logs to your tuner and ask them to check it out.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

Bulldog11 said:


> Im at 4.25 aswell mate. I'm the same don't know whether to be worried or not.


Get it on a dyno and see what it is making. Not that the figures are everything of why a rod lets go, but, with the info of how you drive it, you could presume how your rods are. If its making 600 or there abouts torque, you'd be extremely unlucky to have one go. If your worried you could talk to a tuner about a Warranty or have them to take a look and lower the power slightly.

Afterall, i think everyone would take 20-30 less bhp/torque to save a rod, but thats what you pay the money for is the power.


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## Bulldog11 (Aug 17, 2014)

Vernonjones said:


> Send your logs to your tuner and ask them to check it out.


Thats what im going to do. Log it then ask litchfields to have a look at the logs, as it was litchfields that mapped my car.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Bulldog11 said:


> Thats what im going to do. Log it then ask litchfields to have a look at the logs, as it was litchfields that mapped my car.


Yup always best. Trouble is people who have their cars tuned don't get them serviced regularly sometimes. Things like Injectors clogging up, bad fuel, old or incorrect oil gets used. A tuner service is all it takes to ensure your car is still running correctly. 

I protect my investment with Syvecs because of the extra Engine shutdown protection it offers. But then I'm paranoid.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

Bulldog11 said:


> Thats what im going to do. Log it then ask litchfields to have a look at the logs, as it was litchfields that mapped my car.


There is always there warranty too. Or Nissan's one.. :runaway:


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

Vernonjones said:


> Yup always best. Trouble is people who have their cars tuned don't get them serviced regularly sometimes. Things like Injectors clogging up, bad fuel, old or incorrect oil gets used. A tuner service is all it takes to ensure your car is still running correctly.
> 
> I protect my investment with Syvecs because of the extra Engine shutdown protection it offers. But then I'm paranoid.


Makes sense at your level, on a Stage 4.25 the money for Syvecs could be a lot better spent elsewhere such as brakes.


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## Bulldog11 (Aug 17, 2014)

Vernonjones said:


> Yup always best. Trouble is people who have their cars tuned don't get them serviced regularly sometimes. Things like Injectors clogging up, bad fuel, old or incorrect oil gets used. A tuner service is all it takes to ensure your car is still running correctly.
> 
> I protect my investment with Syvecs because of the extra Engine shutdown protection it offers. But then I'm paranoid.


My cars always been serviced on time by litchfields. Then while I've owned it by jurgen. So I don't have any worries on that front


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## Bulldog11 (Aug 17, 2014)

Simons GTR said:


> Hi everyone,
> I think I got big problems with my 09 gtr. I was driving through Germany on the autobahn suddenly I heard a small bang an then it sounded like someone had poured a bag of bolts into the engine!!!! An a curtain of white smoke out the back of the car!!!! My heart sank!!! Good chance its gearbox, turbo, both!! Oil everywhere, all down the car !!! Gutted???
> Anyone know a good gtr garage in Germany??? Don't really want Nissan as I know I'll need a mortgage for that!!!


Hope you get this sorted. Feel gutted for you mate.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Donga said:


> Makes sense at your level, on a Stage 4.25 the money for Syvecs could be a lot better spent elsewhere such as brakes.


Thats kinda what I meant about protecting your investment.


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

One thing is for certain - I would rather move to benefits street than be a 'gtr tuner!'

We give tuners a lot of flack - and everyone jumps on the bandwagon for a witch hunt when an engine goes pop!!! I seriously believe that almost EVERY tuner in the UK are respectable and totally know what they are doing! All have reliable running cars and all have had their failures! 

A tune is a tune! Every tuner will tune - log - amend until they have a satisfactory level of tune and the car runs safe! More often than not, we push our tuners to GIVE US MORE! Imo - you tune a car to up your figures and have fun! Why opt for stage 4.25 if you are satisfied with 600/600 level of power??? Stage 1 or 2 would deliver??? We choose to push boundaries and then plead for safety (almost a de-tune)!!! 

TUNERS DO NOT HAVE REMOTE ACCESS OR LIVE FEEDS TO OUR CARS! 

A good tune today - could be a bad tune tomorrow! Factors like bad fuel, oil pressure/starvation, o2 sensors etc etc etc all have an impact on how your car runs and can cause failure! Far too often - no questions are ever asked as to the exact cause of an engine failing. Rather - we have many numbers demanding the answer to the most famous question - 'Who tuned your car mate?'

Tuning takes time! It takes skill! It takes experience and knowledge of your car. I have been logging and logging many many times with a certain tuner over the last few weeks personally. Only now I appreciate just how difficult a tuners job is. I kept asking for 'more' so the tuner had to then do his best to find 'some more' until a limit is reached that the tuner is not prepared to go over! I am quiet happy sitting on borderline 'safe' with my stage 4.25! Don't get me wrong, I don't want to kill my car overnight, but I definately want my bang for buck that stage 4.25 should give! Now - if my o2 sensor sticks and runs me too lean killing my engine, would it be my tuners fault? Some may say that the tuner should't have pushed the car so hard and should have capped everything to allow margin for error/failure! Why on earth would I want to find peak power and then cap at 620/600 and relax? Each to their own I suppose.

Hats off to all you tuners out there! We are lucky we have you, but we will shoot you down at the first opportunity.

Please din't shoot me down all at once guys - all the above is of course my own humble opinion.


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## shindy (Apr 27, 2010)

G2GUV said:


> One thing is for certain - I would rather move to benefits street than be a 'gtr tuner!'
> 
> We give tuners a lot of flack - and everyone jumps on the bandwagon for a witch hunt when an engine goes pop!!! I seriously believe that almost EVERY tuner in the UK are respectable and totally know what they are doing! All have reliable running cars and all have had their failures!
> 
> ...


well said.......everyone is going to support their chosen tuner...hence some of the comments on this thread


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

shindy said:


> well said.......everyone is going to support their chosen tuner...hence some of the comments on this thread


I think he was referring to mappers (such as ecutek/syvecs/cobb/motec) more so than tuners such as SVM/litchfield/JM etc. If so his points are very valid.


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

buzzysingh said:


> I think he was referring to mappers (such as ecutek/syvecs/cobb/motec) more so than tuners such as SVM/litchfield/JM etc. If so his points are very valid.


You know I talk sense Buzzy!!!:runaway:


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> One thing is for certain - I would rather move to benefits street than be a 'gtr tuner!'
> 
> We give tuners a lot of flack - and everyone jumps on the bandwagon for a witch hunt when an engine goes pop!!! I seriously believe that almost EVERY tuner in the UK are respectable and totally know what they are doing! All have reliable running cars and all have had their failures!
> 
> ...


I agree. Really we shouldnt be tuning these cars, but people do because they can, and with that comes risks, no matter what you do to prevent it. If your concerned or worried, a warranty is a good choice.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

I think we are going to see alot more of these cars throwing rods out the block ( sadly )

1 The stage 4 and above cars are starting to have covered a fare few miles now ( how many stage 1/2 cars do you hear about going bang )

2 Nissan capped the torque on the nismo for a reason ?

3 AMS ( i think i read it was ams ) said when stripping FBO cars in america many of the rods were bent - over time they were bending RODS

The Ecu will catch most issues with bad fuel / miss fires / faulty sensors / injectors before it pops the engine they are very clever now from the factory - i would bet the small oem turbos are throwing alot of heat into the engine to get the sort of power from stage 4 tune - for peace of mind i would only go to this stage if i had forged rods fitted - while the engine is out you may as well fit turbos as well


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

terry lloyd said:


> I think we are going to see alot more of these cars throwing rods out the block ( sadly )
> 
> 1 The stage 4 and above cars are starting to have covered a fare few miles now ( how many stage 1/2 cars do you hear about going bang )
> 
> ...


Then an intercooler followed by better fuelling!!!

But don't forget to cap the torque at 600 again to save your transmission!!! LOL!!! If trans goes bang - NAME & SHAME the tuner! 

I just don't get it!!!

By the way - who tuned the OP's car? SVM have clearly denied it - so it seems that everyone has stopped caring! :runaway: it would just be interesting to know from the tuner if the car was dyno'd and what the figures were just for our information.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

terry lloyd said:


> I think we are going to see alot more of these cars throwing rods out the block ( sadly )
> 
> 1 The stage 4 and above cars are starting to have covered a fare few miles now ( how many stage 1/2 cars do you hear about going bang )
> 
> ...


Yes I think the same - we all know the 600-660lbft limit but over time things do bend. You are right about the Nismo and for good reason.

It's such a shame the rods were the weak point. The trouble is with getting Rods fitted is its one of the most expensive jobs and for not a lot of gain because of the Gearbox limit. Now the R35 is becoming more accessible to lower budget enthusiasts I think the problem may get worse not better. There are always so many unknowns about how owners look after and drive their cars anyway. I never understood why Nissan didnt cap the RPM on cold start for example and limit boost, BMW have dont that for ages on their M models.


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

G2GUV said:


> By the way - who tuned the OP's car? SVM have clearly denied it - so it seems that everyone has stopped caring! :runaway: it would just be interesting to know from the tuner if the car was dyno'd and what the figures were just for our information.


I wonder if we will ever know, much like the last engine failure, it just all went quiet.

i am not into flaming tuners but building up a database of sorts, of cars that have failed would be useful. E.G miles, tuner, stage, boost, any logs, conditions in which it failed etc etc can only be a good thing. having the engine go bang then say nothing will get us nowhere.

i am not saying the OP will do this on this occation but it seems part for the course where the GTR is invloved.

I feel for you m8 especially being out of the Uk you must be having a mare of a time.


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## Gasman (Mar 24, 2013)

terry lloyd said:


> I think we are going to see alot more of these cars throwing rods out the block ( sadly )
> 
> 1 The stage 4 and above cars are starting to have covered a fare few miles now ( how many stage 1/2 cars do you hear about going bang )



From the recent litchfield dyno day results it was quite interesting to see that stage 1/2 cars were only making about 530lb/ft tq. Stage 4 is a fair jump then & I would think you'd be wise to drive mindfully (keeping revs high on full load) to protect the rods.

Feel bad for the OP doesn't sound like you did much wrong. Hope you get it sorted


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

G2GUV said:


> Then an intercooler followed by better fuelling!!!
> 
> But don't forget to cap the torque at 600 again to save your transmission!!! LOL!!! If trans goes bang - NAME & SHAME the tuner!
> 
> ...


True - sounds like safe bets are 

Stage 1 or 2 or

Vernons spec


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

paulmc said:


> i am not into flaming tuners but building up a database of sorts, of cars that have failed would be useful. E.G miles, tuner, stage, boost, any logs, conditions in which it failed etc etc can only be a good thing. having the engine go bang then say nothing will get us nowhere.


I'd like to see a database of owners who've blown engines and put their hands up to admit they had done something wrong:flame:

It's just too easy to blame the tuner.

I'm not suggesting it's the case here but I don't think I've ever read on here that someone has admitted to ****ing up their own car.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

terry lloyd said:


> 2 Nissan capped the torque on the nismo for a reason ?
> 
> 3 AMS ( i think i read it was ams ) said when stripping FBO cars in america many of the rods were bent - over time they were bending RODS


I raised these very same points a few months ago. It's well documented on gtrlife that AMS encountered many customer FBO GTR's cars that were in for engine builds, upon stripping down the motors they found many cars had bent rods, although the engine up to this point was running fine.

Nissan have clearly skimpt when it comes to the quality of the material used for the rods, they weren't designed to be pushing the sort of torque figures we see with stage 4+. I bet if we strip down 10 Stage 4+ GTR's , a good number of them will have rods that are starting to bend.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

I think that all owners should own a modified Evo before moving on to a GTR. You very quickly learn to properly warm up and cool down an engine and transmission in those things and that will probably follow into every car that follows.

I jest of course but it's amazing to see how many people get into their cars with stone cold engines and then plant the throttle straight away.

To the OP, sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope that you get it sorted as quickly and sensibly priced as possible :thumbsup: Also, a bit late now I know but Green Flag are pretty good for European cover and they are one of the few companies who will actually enter a racing circuit paddock to collect a car if anything goes wrong on a track day ...


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

AdnanK said:


> I raised these very same points a few months ago. It's well documented on gtrlife that AMS encountered many customer FBO GTR's cars that were in for engine builds, upon stripping down the motors they found many cars had bent rods, although the engine up to this point was running fine.
> 
> Nissan have clearly skimpt when it comes to the quality of the material used for the rods, they weren't designed to be pushing the sort of torque figures we see with stage 4+. I bet if we strip down 10 Stage 4+ GTR's , a good number of them will have rods that are starting to bend.


Nissan never skimpt. It was running 450 or so torque standard, thats what its suppose to be and the rods are fine at that level. They wouldnt put stronger rods in for somethong they dont need to do. If you have a rod go, you have to have more than 500 torque (or extremely bad luck) and that will void the warranty so Nissan wont care, just like they dont care with anything they ever do.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

36k isnt high mileage on a 35. I think its more of a tuning issue than anything mileage related. Hope you get it sorted mate


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Evo9lution said:


> I think that all owners should own a modified Evo before moving on to a GTR. You very quickly learn to properly warm up and cool down an engine and transmission in those things and that will probably follow into every car that follows.
> 
> I jest of course but it's amazing to see how many people get into their cars with stone cold engines and then plant the throttle straight away.
> 
> To the OP, sorry to hear about your troubles. I hope that you get it sorted as quickly and sensibly priced as possible :thumbsup: Also, a bit late now I know but Green Flag are pretty good for European cover and they are one of the few companies who will actually enter a racing circuit paddock to collect a car if anything goes wrong on a track day ...


Yes I was certainly reminded to and learned to use the car with mechanical sympathy during my evo days. From memory there was plenty of talk about torque and rods on the MLR. Similar to here lots of evo X s running 400ftlbs of torque which was the accepted limit like 650 is on the R35 but one or two would throw a rod, reason unknown.

I'm running 760/650, I don't track the car and its always warmed up and cooled down. Its also never gone more than 4k miles between services. 

To the OP really sorry to hear about your engine, I hope you get it fixed quickly and at a sensible cost. Nothing worse than someone trying to make big profits from someone's plight.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

I dont see how warming a car up properly, or regular services is going to stop you bending a con rod - its heat / pressure that bends / breaks them ( not saying you should not do this but cant see it making a difference


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

terry lloyd said:


> I dont see how warming a car up properly, or regular services is going to stop you bending a con rod - its heat / pressure that bends / breaks them ( not saying you should not do this but cant see it making a difference


Running too much torque with more heat generated by the small turbos is what kills them. Like you have said, warming up/cooling down and regular servicing have nothing to do with it.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

AdnanK said:


> Running too much torque with more heat generated by the small turbos is what kills them. Like you have said, warming up/cooling down and regular servicing have nothing to do with it.


So an aftermarket intercooler, would help with keeping the heat down then, thus assisting in not over heating the rods/engine as much?


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

AdnanK said:


> Running too much torque with more heat generated by the small turbos is what kills them. Like you have said, warming up/cooling down and regular servicing have nothing to do with it.


Question is, How much is too much torque?

Mines capped across the mid rev range in order too protect the rods. But in all honesty, its just pot luck like any mechanical or electrical item.

It could last a 10 years or 10 mins.

T


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Chronos said:


> So an aftermarket intercooler, would help with keeping the heat down then, thus assisting in not over heating the rods/engine as much?


I think it would help ( a bit confused how they work when the bumper covers half of it though  ) bigger turbos will run cooler - possibly fuel cooler ? using e85 runs a lot cooler


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Chronos said:


> So an aftermarket intercooler, would help with keeping the heat down then, thus assisting in not over heating the rods/engine as much?


Heat obviously plays a factor, but it's too much torque that bends these rods, the guys in the States mostly run E85 which has a cooling affect, yet they have seen rods bend too. Again, I'm only going by the evidence of what I have seen from across the pond and with failures over here.

If it was me running 600 + torques with the stock motor, I'd have it dialled so its smooth and flat and doesn't peak till later in the range and I'd make sure its got the tuners warranty.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

Tariq said:


> Question is, How much is too much torque?
> 
> Mines capped across the mid rev range in order too protect the rods. But in all honesty, its just pot luck like any mechanical or electrical item.
> 
> ...


Its impossible to tell. Power and torque cant be the only things that aid in a bent or broken rod. One thats sat on the motorway most of its life doing 2-3k rpm vs one that gets regulary tracked is going to make a difference, combine that with less regular services, more heat etc.

It could also be poor lubrication or maybe a head gasket has gone, Coolant or another type of liquid got into the cylinder, you cant compress liquid and imagine what would happen when a piston tries to compress it. When more force is put on a rod that it is able to take, something has to give and it will bend to compensate for the extra force, if its too much force it will break

I think a good possibility would be coolant into the combustion chamber, hydro lock. White smoke would back this up too I believe.

EDIT: just read OP had white smoke out the back of the car, sounds a lot more like coolant into combustion chamber....


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Donga said:


> Its impossible to tell. Power and torque cant be the only things that aid in a bent or broken rod. One thats sat on the motorway most of its life doing 2-3k rpm vs one that gets regulary tracked is going to make a difference, combine that with less regular services, more heat etc.
> 
> It could also be poor lubrication or maybe a head gasket has gone, Coolant or another type of liquid got into the cylinder, you cant compress liquid and imagine what would happen when a piston tries to compress it. When more force is put on a rod that it is able to take, something has to give and it will bend to compensate for the extra force, if its too much force it will break
> 
> ...


Makes a lot of sense.

Tuner warranty will be at the cost of limited capability of your car. No tuner will be happy to warranty to your car if you are pushing to get the best out of it! So a warranty means reigning it in a little for the tuners peace of mind! Is this not a contradiction to tuning? Tuning any car comes with risk. You should only take that risk if you are prepared for breakages and failures - especially stage 4+! 

I am beginning to think that we are asking for too much! Stage 4.25 is circa. £5k? We want to increase our power outputs to approx 20-25% and genuinely believe it should all be warrantied. Why and how can a tuner warranty a £15k replacement engine when everything on your stock car is pretty much maxed out? Fueling at its limits! Turbos running out of puff! Transmission under considerable strain! Some would answer this is why most parameters should be capped to 600/600? BUT THEN WHY GO FOR STAGE 4.25????? :runaway:

Stage 4.25 is probably a very popular upgrade for most GTR owners as that is pretty much as far as you can go without significant further cost. (dropping engine, upgrading turbos, fueling, cooling etc etc etc). So it is fair to say that we all understand that this stage of tune will 'max out' our stock cars. The responsibility then should lie in our own hands to ensure the car is maintained meticulously to significantly reduce the chance of any failures that may be in the pipeline. We should frequently log our cars and check with our tuners for any amendments/updates, or any concerns that may flag up from the last log? In my eyes - this will save most cars, but obviously isn't guaranteed. I genuinely believe that most failures are down to how that car is maintained/used - NOT tuner faults!

(By the way - I have no affiliation with whoever tuned the OP's car! I have no idea who tuned it - all this is just my 2 pence worth).

The above is the exact reason why I will now always argue that you shouldn't buy a modified GTR - unless you personally know of the car/previous owner and exactly how the car has been maintained. A stamped up service book backed up with invoices doesn't tell the full story.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> Makes a lot of sense.
> 
> +!
> 
> ...


yeah take a look below, stage 4.25 ( with downpipes ) does seem to be most popular.., tho this gives more power, they also let the car breath better.. some also have an aftermarket intercooler as well, i have a Greddy to aid with cooling.

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/295273-what-stage-your-r35-gt-r-poll-7.html#post3865514


Poll Results: What stage is your R35 GT-R?

Stock 31	16.06%
Stage 1 36	18.65%
Stage 2 20	10.36%
Stage 3 2	1.04%
Stage 4 19	9.84%
Stage 4.25 (downpipes) *52	26.94%*
Stage 4.5 (downpipes+Turbos) 7	3.63%
Stage 5 6	3.11%
Stage 6 6


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## willgts (Jul 17, 2004)

A lot of the guys in the states run E85 which if anything will make the issue with rod bending worse as they will naturally produce more power/torque, anywhere in the region of 10-15% more, which is a lot. 
Once you are over the 600lb/ft mark then any single detonation event could cause a cylinder pressure spike and send a shockwave through the piston/rod assembly and potentially bend a rod. I would not be overly worried as there must be thousands of GTRs running over that kind of torque and only a few failures comparatively.

I can't see how things like intercoolers/lower intake temps will help prevent bending rods? If anything they will cause an increase in torque due to lower intake temps and put further stress on the rods?


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

Chronos said:


> yeah take a look below, stage 4.25 ( with downpipes ) does seem to be most popular.., tho this gives more power, they also let the car breath better.. some also have an aftermarket intercooler as well, i have a Greddy to aid with cooling.
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/295273-what-stage-your-r35-gt-r-poll-7.html#post3865514
> 
> ...


Not sure how much heat has an effect on the rods lifespan, but I think heat would not be enough to kill one on there own, over a long period of time yes it would degrage it possibly. The rod was either seriously weakened or bent before it let go, or it happened due to coolant into the combustion chamber. Rods fail due to force, not heat.


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## speedr33per (Apr 19, 2007)

Donga said:


> I think a good possibility would be coolant into the combustion chamber, hydro lock. White smoke would back this up too I believe.
> 
> EDIT: just read OP had white smoke out the back of the car, sounds a lot more like coolant into combustion chamber....


after the engine went bang so oil and water will be everywhere causing the smoke


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

speedr33per said:


> after the engine went bang so oil and water will be everywhere causing the smoke


Correct, happened with mine.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

speedr33per said:


> after the engine went bang so oil and water will be everywhere causing the smoke


Surely the rod would of gone bang the moment the coolant went into the engine, you cant compress liquid, the rod is the weakest point, the rod will give in. White smoke exits through the exhaust out the back.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

terry lloyd said:


> I dont see how warming a car up properly, or regular services is going to stop you bending a con rod - its heat / pressure that bends / breaks them ( not saying you should not do this but cant see it making a difference





AdnanK said:


> Running too much torque with more heat generated by the small turbos is what kills them. Like you have said, warming up/cooling down and regular servicing have nothing to do with it.


The point I was making is that if somebody doesn't look after their engine with such a simple thing like warming and cooling, then there may be a reasonable chance that they skimp on other things as well (regular servicing / torque capping etc.). While a lack of appropriate warming may not be ultimately responsible for bending rods, it may damage the engine and speed up the process or render an engine more susceptible to this process. Failing to maintain the engine, especially at higher states of tune, are likely to also affect this likelihood also, no? _[Not suggesting at any point that the OP has not looked after his engine ...]_

Btw, does anybody know if an engine has even bent / thrown a rod in a stock GTR?


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

Evo9lution said:


> The point I was making is that if somebody doesn't look after their engine with such a simple thing like warming and cooling, then there may be a reasonable chance that they skimp on other things as well (regular servicing / torque capping etc.). While a lack of appropriate warming may not be ultimately responsible for bending rods, it may damage the engine and speed up the process or render an engine more susceptible to this process. Failing to maintain the engine, especially at higher states of tune, are likely to also affect this likelihood also, no? _[Not suggesting at any point that the OP has not looked after his engine ...]_
> 
> Btw, does anybody know if an engine has even bent / thrown a rod in a stock GTR?


Yes, Boxer when he first had his GT-R was complete stock.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> One thing is for certain - I would rather move to benefits street than be a 'gtr tuner!'
> 
> We give tuners a lot of flack - and everyone jumps on the bandwagon for a witch hunt when an engine goes pop!!! I seriously believe that almost EVERY tuner in the UK are respectable and totally know what they are doing! All have reliable running cars and all have had their failures!
> 
> ...





AdnanK said:


> I raised these very same points a few months ago. It's well documented on gtrlife that AMS encountered many customer FBO GTR's cars that were in for engine builds, upon stripping down the motors they found many cars had bent rods, although the engine up to this point was running fine.
> 
> Nissan have clearly skimpt when it comes to the quality of the material used for the rods, they weren't designed to be pushing the sort of torque figures we see with stage 4+. I bet if we strip down 10 Stage 4+ GTR's , a good number of them will have rods that are starting to bend.


I don't think they did skimp on rods it is normal that OEM rods are designed with a limit on mind to keep costs down. If they started fitting forged rods and Pistons would only push prices up. This is where the aftermarket comes in and if your going for more power and torque use a quality steel rod.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

FRRACER said:


> I don't think they did skimp on rods it is normal that OEM rods are designed with a limit on mind to keep costs down. If they started fitting forged rods and Pistons would only push prices up. This is where the aftermarket comes in and if your going for more power and torque use a quality steel rod.


Has anyone ever done rods and pistons with stock turbos?? to maximize safety /peace of mind and also up/max the torque of stock turbos.. if so i wonder what output you could get then??


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

Chronos said:


> Has anyone ever done rods and pistons with stock turbos?? to maximize safety /peace of mind and also up/max the torque of stock turbos.. if so i wonder what output you could get then??


I am also interested in this. I thought Buzzy was going to be the first but then he got sucked in to bigger Tubbies as well! :chuckle:


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

Chronos said:


> Has anyone ever done rods and pistons with stock turbos?? to maximize safety /peace of mind and also up/max the torque of stock turbos.. if so i wonder what output you could get then??


It would be rude not to do the turbo's when the engines stripped but I can see the appeal of just forging the engine to run Stage 4 with some good torque for longevity.


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## SPEEDKING777 (Jul 17, 2014)

Evo9lution said:


> I think that all owners should own a modified Evo before moving on to a GTR.


+1 , Lol all evo owners monitor temps and readings religiously


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

People seem to confuse the torque and bhp levels and what this means on a GT-R. The GT-R turbos have potential to make significant levels of torque in the mid range but dont have enough puff to maintain this to the red line. The BHP figure is generally at the highest revs, the torque is in the mid range, so you can cap / limit the torque in the mid range to still give the same power at the top end. Hence you can see some GT-Rs with 640lbft but only 610 / 620bhp on a stage 4.25. I wouldnt be happy with that.

When driving on the motorway, you tend to be in this mid range area and as the turbos are very fast spooling, you plant your foot and there is a sudden and significant stress on the rods. More so if you are 630 / 640+ lbft

As I said before, mine is limited to 595lbft in the mid range and I have fitted the biggest intakes, plus the rest of the 4.25 equipment (downpipes) so I get the least restriction when at the highest revs, which has given me 647bhp. Very drivable. Nismo like midrange power. And importantly, confidence in my set up. Stage 4.25 is a great stage and people needn't be scared of it, but should focus on what that mid range lbft figure is if they want longevity out of their engine.


I would happily fit larger turbo inlet pipes and an intercooler as I believe this will aid with top end flow and give me even more top end power without needing to affect that very drivable mid range.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

I asked my tuner about forging the engine but keeping at Stage 4.25 otherwise (OK, I know that's kind of a contradiction in terms but I think you know what I mean) but he advised that it probably wouldn't be worthwhile unless I planned on putting bigger turbos and increasing torque significantly in the future, which I don't (the latter possibly requiring tranny upgrades as well of course )

While there does seem to be a torque limit of course, is it possible that some people may have just been unfortunate to have rods fitted that came from a slightly dodgy batch and, as many of these cars are now modified to quite a high degree of additional torque (25-40%), the significance of this correlation has been inferred incorrectly / type-I error (i.e. would these cars have all eventually have bent their rods anyway but the additional torque just accelerated the process)?

Just playing Devil's Advocate for people who understand engines much better than I do to comment on :thumbsup:


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

buzzysingh said:


> Yes, Boxer when he first had his GT-R was complete stock.


Boxers totally STOCK car threw a rod???


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> As I said before, mine is limited to 595lbft in the mid range and I have fitted the biggest intakes, plus the rest of the 4.25 equipment (downpipes) so I get the least restriction when at the highest revs, which has given me 647bhp. Very drivable. Nismo like midrange power.


Can I ask who tuned yours? Also, any chance you could put up your Dyno chart if you have one?

Thanks.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> Boxers totally STOCK car threw a rod???


What year was his car? That's some bad luck there.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

G2GUV said:


> I am also interested in this. I thought Buzzy was going to be the first but then he got sucked in to bigger Tubbies as well! :chuckle:


can't blame him really lol



AdnanK said:


> It would be rude not to do the turbo's when the engines stripped but I can see the appeal of just forging the engine to run Stage 4 with some good torque for longevity.


Exactly, and for people like me who do a lot of miles and use it as a daily, it may benefit in the long run



gtr mart said:


> I would happily fit larger turbo inlet pipes and an intercooler as I believe this will aid with top end flow and give me even more top end power without needing to affect that very drivable mid range.


yeah when my Greddy intercooler was fitted, the timing was upped a tad



Evo9lution said:


> I asked my tuner about forging the engine but keeping at Stage 4.25 otherwise (OK, I know that's kind of a contradiction in terms but I think you know what I mean) but he advised that it probably wouldn't be worthwhile unless I planned on putting bigger turbos and increasing torque significantly in the future, which I don't (the latter possibly requiring tranny upgrades as well of course )


Yes, however if the engine rods/pistons are done, you could whack up the torque on the stock turbos.. I dont know what they would max out at tho.. 680/700+lbft ive heard before. ~so you could get some nice torque gains, whilst making your current tune safer, for the engine.



G2GUV said:


> Boxers totally STOCK car threw a rod???


Again, another reason why if you are stage 4 / 4.25, it might be worth it for safety of your stock turbo's TUNED car


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

Chronos said:


> Yes, however if the engine rods/pistons are done, you could whack up the torque on the stock turbos.. I dont know what they would max out at tho.. 680/700+lbft ive heard before. ~so you could get some nice torque gains, whilst making your current tune safer, for the engine.


All personal choice IMO. I have to admit, I may well forge my engine in the future but it won't really be for torque gains (very rarely have I felt like my car has too little torque as it is. On the mountain road in the IoM the other week, the GTRs were eating everything else alive up there so all that would happen is that I would hit the rolling road block ahead a few seconds sooner. More relevant for those who like to drag or track more frequently than I maybe).



Chronos said:


> Again, another reason why if you are stage 4 / 4.25, it might be worth it for safety of your stock turbo's TUNED car


As above, I may do this for peace of mind but it's a risk / benefit (cost) ratio that is not necessarily that favourable. There appears to be a lot of R35s out there running 600 lbs/ft torque or more and I don't think the percentage of those that have blown rods is that high? Again, each to their own ...

Hoping I've not jinxed things now :runaway:


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Evo9lution said:


> All personal choice IMO. I have to admit, I may well forge my engine in the future but it won't really be for torque gains (very rarely have I felt like my car has too little torque as it is. On the mountain road in the IoM the other week, the GTRs were eating everything else alive up there so all that would happen is that I would hit the rolling road block ahead a few seconds sooner. More relevant for those who like to drag or track more frequently than I maybe).
> As above, I may do this for peace of mind but it's a risk / benefit (cost) ratio that is not necessarily that favourable. There appears to be a lot of R35s out there running 600 lbs/ft torque or more and I don't think the percentage of those that have blown rods is that high? Again, each to their own ...
> Hoping I've not jinxed things now :runaway:


But then you gotta think, the cost of forging ONLY, not turbos Vs a new engine and the hassle if it blows, then again as you said a lot have been fine for years on stage 4.. I suppose its the luck of the draw, or are some of them slowly bending with high tune and mileage , that could be protected with a forge before they go?? on that note, where's my lucky Horseshoe?


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

With stock rods this is probably how I'd want my Dyno plot to look like.

Switzer call this a safe tune for the rods, alhtough its a few years old.


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## Tariq (Mar 24, 2008)

Vernonjones said:


> That's kinda true, mine original engine let go at 4000rpm on part throttle.


What internals was you running on your old block?

T


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Totally standard.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Donga said:


> Surely the rod would of gone bang the moment the coolant went into the engine, you cant compress liquid, the rod is the weakest point, the rod will give in. White smoke exits through the exhaust out the back.


I think the white smoke ( steam ) would have come from the rod going through the water jacket on its way out the outer block


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

G2GUV said:


> I am also interested in this. I thought Buzzy was going to be the first but then he got sucked in to bigger Tubbies as well! :chuckle:


I had ran this for around 2k miles but had to have a rebuild and went with bigger turbos!


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## speedr33per (Apr 19, 2007)

Donga said:


> Surely the rod would of gone bang the moment the coolant went into the engine, you cant compress liquid, the rod is the weakest point, the rod will give in. White smoke exits through the exhaust out the back.


for the amount of water or oil to force a rod out the block while its driving would mean a very distinct missfire and LOTS of smoke out the exhaust long before the engine went bang and also to get that severe issue for that amount of liquid i doubt the engine would even start or rev at all.

its well known that when a rod exits the block it takes out oil and water gallerys which causes lots of smoke,a rod has failed and it will have nothing to do with water or oil leaking into the chamber beforehand.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

*Catastrophic failure - time for a video*

Yep, sometimes engines do just let go


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

Whats the cost/benefit of a rod swap as preventative medicine.

If you get the rods done at regular service time (so oil/filter) then the service is practically free because you'll get the oil/filter change as part of the rod swap.
So about £4k to swap the rods..


Whats the repair bill on a rod through the block in a non emergency situation?


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

borat52 said:


> Whats the cost/benefit of a rod swap as preventative medicine.
> 
> If you get the rods done at regular service time (so oil/filter) then the service is practically free because you'll get the oil/filter change as part of the rod swap.
> So about £4k to swap the rods..
> ...


£10k ish - Complete new or used engine.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

G2GUV said:


> Boxers totally STOCK car threw a rod???


It wasn't stock, it was at stage 1 when it went.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

R35 Boxer said:


> It wasn't stock, it was at stage 1 when it went.


wow so even stage 1 has thrown a rod.. shows it can happen at any stage 1-4 then.. 

Have any stock cars EVER thrown a rod that we know of? and to the opposite side of the scale, have any R35 forged engines ever gone pop?


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Going to start a new thread ( who has had a engine failure - why ? and what stage of tune was the car ? )


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

terry lloyd said:


> Going to start a new thread ( who has had a engine failure - why ? and what stage of tune was the car ? )


should be more like, Who has had an engine or gearbox failure - why ? and what stage of tune was the car ?

Tho I don't think it will make you very popular :chuckle:


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## MR-07-SHA (Jun 17, 2013)

Sorry to hear Simon..

I went through exactly the same with my 650R running on COBB exactly 12 months ago!

I was downshifting 3rd into 2nd - hit the limiter and BOOOOM!

Had a new engine built - forged pistons rods etc..running around 680lbs/ft 650hp.. circa £11k


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## SamboGrove (Jun 27, 2010)

Chronos said:


> wow so even stage 1 has thrown a rod.. shows it can happen at any stage 1-4 then..
> 
> Have any stock cars EVER thrown a rod that we know of? and to the opposite side of the scale, have any R35 forged engines ever gone pop?


Stock cars have thrown stock rods.

I'm pretty sure Iain had one on display in his reception before the refurb.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

The concept of just doing rods at service time is an interesting one. It offsets some of the cost and means you could let the mid range torque go nuts. Similar argument though for ice clipping the gearbox. Lots of money for Labour / parts that offer minimal performance. 

I assume based on costs the rods are changed with the engine in situ from below?


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

gtr mart said:


> The concept of just doing rods at service time is an interesting one. It offsets some of the cost and means you could let the mid range torque go nuts. Similar argument though for ice clipping the gearbox. Lots of money for Labour / parts that offer minimal performance.
> 
> I assume based on costs the rods are changed with the engine in situ from below?


Its Engine out to change the rods i looked into it ( cannot get sump off due to sub frame and other bits in the way ) dont really see much of a saving having it done during a service


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

gtr mart said:


> I assume based on costs the rods are changed with the engine in situ from below?


Tricky but doable i suppose. Support the engine and drop the subframe. Not sure if the rods would come out without taking the crank out though. Then how do you go about bobweight and balancing? i guess you could take everything out including pistons get it all balanced.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

The service is essentially free which will save you a few hundred quid.

I just had a look at the cost for rods only and it does indeed included crank balancing aswell as new bearings. So they must remove the engine. 

Tempting. I did just suggest to the Mrs that instead of going on holiday this year, perhaps I should forge my engine. She wasn't that keen :chuckle:


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

paulmc said:


> Tricky but doable i suppose. Support the engine and drop the subframe. Not sure if the rods would come out without taking the crank out though. Then how do you go about bobweight and balancing? i guess you could take everything out including pistons get it all balanced.


Ha difference of opinion - Paul what about front diff ? - and the heads will need to come off to get piston and rods out as the pistons wont come out the bottom


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

terry lloyd said:


> Its Engine out to change the rods i looked into it ( cannot get sump off due to sub frame and other bits in the way ) dont really see much of a saving having it done during a service


thats a bit of a conflict:chuckle:

I agree with terry though, it would be a mare of a job and not sure it would buy you anything time / labour wise.

Taking the engine out is very straight forward.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Its around 6k for a rod and piston change and around 5k for a rod job only.


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

terry lloyd said:


> Ha difference of opinion - Paul what about front diff ? - and the heads will need to come off to get piston and rods out as the pistons wont come out the bottom


Ah well if the pistons wont come put the bottom its deffo not happening.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

vxrcymru said:


> Its around 6k for a rod and piston change and around 5k for a rod job only.


you must be able to get it done cheaper than that..

how much for the actual labor? as you can get a rod and pistons set below for £2,400 OR just rods £1,190.00

HKS Pistons (95.5mm) & H-Beam Rod Set (STEP2) - Nissan R35 GTR
HKS Pistons (95.5mm) & H-Beam Rod Set (STEP1) - Nissan R35 GTR - GTR-Shop.org

just rods £1,190.00
Cosworth Forged Connecting Rods - Nissan R35 GTR
Cosworth Forged Connecting Rods - Nissan R35 GTR - GTR-Shop.org

Engine - Nissan R35 GTR - GTR-Shop.org


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

You pay for what you get though. If you want a price, go to your tuner or one that you trust and is reputable and see what they charge and which manufacturer & type of rods they suggest. That is the price IMO ...


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

its 4.4k for rods inc vat, or under £4k if deemed a necessary business expense and you can run it through the books :chuckle: Rods and pistons is £2k more.

I did start the man maths before and it seems ludicrous to have even the rods done without bashing a set of turbos on at the same time which brings me full circle in the thought process.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Chronos said:


> you must be able to get it done cheaper than that..
> 
> how much for the actual labor? as you can get a rod and pistons set below for £2,400 OR just rods £1,190.00
> 
> ...


Litchfield charge 6.3k for a rod and piston job. I would imagine they also warranty the engine as long as they map it. 

Includes full balance, head studs etc and running in oil changes.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

gtr mart said:


> its 4.4k for rods inc vat, or under £4k if deemed a necessary business expense and you can run it through the books :chuckle: Rods and pistons is £2k more.
> 
> I did start the man maths before and it seems ludicrous to have even the rods done without bashing a set of turbos on at the same time which brings me full circle in the thought process.


You have the engine out to do the rods to prevent one failing, while the rods are out you think I'll have the turbos done for more power, while that is happenening you think about new pistons as the engine is all stripped down and may as well do the pistons as well as the rods, you can go on and on, where does it stop?


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Donga said:


> You have the engine out to do the rods to prevent one failing, while the rods are out you think I'll have the turbos done for more power, while that is happenening you think about new pistons as the engine is all stripped down and may as well do the pistons as well as the rods, you can go on and on, where does it stop?


In divorce


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

gtr mart said:


> In divorce


Probably lol

The only upgrades the wife knows about are the ones she can see...


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Don't talk to crafty_blade about that. He actually got away with buying a new white GT-R, getting litchfields to swap the mods over the same day as trading in his white MY11 and went home to the mrs saying they gave the car a valet whilst it was serviced and it feels like new. And she went for it..... hahahahahahah She still doesn't know to this day that he bought a new car. HERO 

Sorry Stan. I couldn't help it :chuckle:


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

I tried a few places. Best i found was £3000 engine out rebuild balance etc engine back in. Parts ontop of that.

Pistons £800
Rods £1100
OEM Gasket set £300
head studs £500
main studs £400
Oil pump £300
head gaskets £300

Total £3700 + rebuild £3000 = £6700 inc vat. you could take £800 off that price as most dont use uprated head studs or uprated head gaskets. 

£5900 sounds cheap lol

I guess if depends on what power you are going for re the list above.

litchfield work out more expensive than £6.3, they are around £6700 + VAT but you get a warranty thats got to be worth a chunk?


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

why buy a tuned gtr if you can't afford to fix it? gtr trans cost a lot and so does a built engine.

does op want to go OEM for much cheaper? 

best of luck I know how it feels.

BTW what gas did you use and what was it tuned for?


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

paulmc said:


> I tried a few places. Best i found was £3000 engine out rebuild balance etc engine back in. Parts ontop of that.
> 
> Pistons £800
> Rods £1100
> ...


It says 6.3 k inclusive of VAT on their web site for rod and piston's.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

vxrcymru said:


> It says 6.3 k inclusive of VAT on their web site for rod and piston's.


Which is actually a fair price when you think what you get, and who does it.


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## paulmc (Oct 31, 2004)

Think you may find thats out of date. i did not make up those figures


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## AnilS (Mar 9, 2014)

gtr mart said:


> Don't talk to crafty_blade about that. He actually got away with buying a new white GT-R, getting litchfields to swap the mods over the same day as trading in his white MY11 and went home to the mrs saying they gave the car a valet whilst it was serviced and it feels like new. And she went for it..... hahahahahahah She still doesn't know to this day that he bought a new car. HERO
> 
> Sorry Stan. I couldn't help it :chuckle:


She doesn't read these forums does she? :chuckle:


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I've done that twice, it's not difficult!


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Is this my old car? GO02?


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

paulmc said:


> litchfield work out more expensive than £6.3, they are around £6700 + VAT but you get a warranty thats got to be worth a chunk?


Which is not a million miles away from the £10k (ish) figure to pop in a replacement engine which in practical terms means your probably better off sticking with a stock motor and banking that your in the statistical majority of people who's engines don't go pop.


If I were to take the car to the track, I'd probably forge at least the rods prior to abusing it but for a road car, not sure its worth that expense. 

Sort of wish I'd done the rods when the engine was out now as that would make sense financially.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Ok this is my old car. I can confirm that all of the work done on the car was by SVM and to a very high standard. I changed from Cobb to Ecutek in 2014 due to the safety features the map employed. It was mapped by Iain on the road and he made sure to cap the torque as per the norm, again this was to a very high standard.. Since then only regular oil changes. It was very highly maintained and this is a real shock. No tuner can take responsibility for an owners treatment of a car. Was the oil level checked? Was poor quality fuel put in? Unknown. 

Am truly gutted. She was a beautiful motorcar.


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

GTRSTILL said:


> Ok this is my old car. I can confirm that all of the work done on the car was by SVM and to a very high standard. I changed from Cobb to Ecutek in 2014 due to the safety features the map employed. It was mapped by Iain on the road and he made sure to cap the torque as per the norm, again this was to a very high standard.. Since then only regular oil changes. It was very highly maintained and this is a real shock. No tuner can take responsibility for an owners treatment of a car. Was the oil level checked? Was poor quality fuel put in? Unknown.
> 
> Am truly gutted. She was a beautiful motorcar.


I don't quite follow this, the second line says "all of the work done on the car was by SVM"
Then a few lines later it mentions " Iain mapped it on the road", was this Iain Litchfield or somebody at SVM called Iain?


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Iain Litchfield mapped the car on the road when he loaded up the Ecutek. Read the full thread you goon and you will see SVM and Litchfield are mentioned as the two "tuners". Both did an excellent job and were both accommodating and professional.

All of the prior modifications were completed by SVM. I say modifications it was all only bolt ons. No engineering work was carried out.

What happened to all the Ecutek safety features?


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

barry P. said:


> I don't quite follow this, the second line says "all of the work done on the car was by SVM"
> Then a few lines later it mentions " Iain mapped it on the road", was this Iain Litchfield or somebody at SVM called Iain?


Previously cobb'd and mapped my SVM, owner then went the Ecutek route and it was then mapped by Litchfield.

I think i have that right.


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## AdnanK (Jun 11, 2013)

GTRSTILL said:


> Ok this is my old car. I can confirm that all of the work done on the car was by SVM and to a very high standard. I changed from Cobb to Ecutek in 2014 due to the safety features the map employed. It was mapped by Iain on the road and he made sure to cap the torque as per the norm, again this was to a very high standard.. Since then only regular oil changes. It was very highly maintained and this is a real shock. No tuner can take responsibility for an owners treatment of a car. Was the oil level checked? Was poor quality fuel put in? Unknown.
> 
> Am truly gutted. She was a beautiful motorcar.


Do you know what the torque was capped to when it was in your possession on Cobb and then Ecutek?


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

You ask like I would know. Tbh I tend to trust first until proven untrustworthy. The Cobb was on the car maybe.... 5 months, so at least a year on Ecutek I reckon. All the records went with the car. It had fresh oil and filters just as I sold it.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

i always thought the Ecutek could detect certain conditions and shut the thing off.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Yep, sometimes engines do just let go


Sounds like an RB30:flame::chuckle:


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

The boost is slowly ramped in and kept low until about 4500-5000 the. Increases. Hence capping the torque. When my first one went i had lowered the ramp in point myself about 30 days before to about 3000 and it eventually let go on the stock engine. So its not an instant thing. But i do drive mine hard.


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## Bulldog11 (Aug 17, 2014)

When you consider how many 4.25 cars there must be on the road that haven't had any issues. It makes me wonder if it is a issue with that particular stage or any stage for that matter, or the cars that have gone where unfortunately going to go no matter what stage they where. There must be people that have done a lot of hard miles on 4.25 with no issues when you consider some of these cars are 6 years old now.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

It's could be a number of variables... No one was there. Still waiting to hear about the safety features of the Ecutek


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

GTRSTILL said:


> It's could be a number of variables... No one was there. Still waiting to hear about the safety features of the Ecutek


Both my cars at the moment are on ecutek. My first GTR was on cobb stage 4.25. There was sooooooo much ranting and raving on this forum of how cobb was out of date, left behind on 'safety features' blah blah blah - I actually ditched cobb and went ecutek on my SVM 4.25 car! Pretty much sounds like what you had done!

I think if you need a constant security guard safe keeping your car everytime you drive it - his name will be Syvecs! Ecutek PROBABLY gives the tuner more flexibility to tweek a few more parametres, but I don't think either are capable of detecting a fault and SHUTTING DOWN your engine safely! Maybe I am wrong? 

On a side note - didn't you end up selling your car to a dealer??? If so - it is probably safe to assume that the OP purchased from that Dealer, which in tern means that some/all the responsibility lies with that dealer????


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

I did but I am still gutted. I looked after that thing like she was a child. Literally kept it perfect. Sure I drove it fast but it was very very well maintained. Probably over changed the oil... Every 3k


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Hi everyone, sorry been quite but only now finally got things moving. RAC finally pulled there finger out an have agreed to repatriate the car. I in mean time have finally arrived at my intended destination, Bulgaria.
read most of the posts since my last, hey haven't really got any answers for you yet. Takes up to 3 weeks for car to get home!! All paperwork is back in UK. All I know is I've only had the car 4 weeks, been very careful with it because of that. Had an oil change a week after I got it, even though it had a service a month before. Had new discs an pads front an rear an the car checked over before I left. To say I'm gutted doesn't cover it. But your right, step back take time an think! 
I don't know previous owner, think he's on here still with an r34 now? From wat receipts I've got it seems the car has been treated well an I intend to do the same. I'm knew to gtr's but no foolish kid. I'm 44 an driving for 25+ years, supra, rx7 etc. Not a mechanic by any means an I'm lost with this but thanks guys learning rapidly.
soon as cars back in UK will post progress.

Wish me luck!!! (Anyone would like to donate an engine, please feel free,lol)


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Simons GTR said:


> Hi everyone, sorry been quite but only now finally got things moving. RAC finally pulled there finger out an have agreed to repatriate the car. I in mean time have finally arrived at my intended destination, Bulgaria.
> read most of the posts since my last, hey haven't really got any answers for you yet. Takes up to 3 weeks for car to get home!! All paperwork is back in UK. All I know is I've only had the car 4 weeks, been very careful with it because of that. Had an oil change a week after I got it, even though it had a service a month before. Had new discs an pads front an rear an the car checked over before I left. To say I'm gutted doesn't cover it. But your right, step back take time an think!
> I don't know previous owner, think he's on here still with an r34 now? From wat receipts I've got it seems the car has been treated well an I intend to do the same. I'm knew to gtr's but no foolish kid. I'm 44 an driving for 25+ years, supra, rx7 etc. Not a mechanic by any means an I'm lost with this but thanks guys learning rapidly.
> soon as cars back in UK will post progress.
> ...


Hi Simon, you have my old car. Have a great holiday and if you need any further information on the car and its history please don't hesitate to get in touch. Unlike you I have been around the Skyline and GTR scene for quite some years.

All the best.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Thanks Alex? Maybe useful to chat with you once cars back in UK an on the mend! If that's ok? Saw your earlier comments, horrible for anyone to experience this, you must be gutted it was your pride an joy, as I am. I love the car, an is a dream come true for me. Not a wealthy man but a great car enthusiast. It will be repaired an back to its former glory! Good job I'm already divorced I think!!! Lol as soon would be I think!!


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

MASSIVE COINCIDENCE but this engine looks to be still for sale and in Bulgaria!!!

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/175641-11-vr38dett-complete-stock-engine-transmission-530-bhp-2.html

Where are you based Simon, forum members saw it in Birmingham IIRC


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Simons GTR said:


> Thanks Alex? Maybe useful to chat with you once cars back in UK an on the mend! If that's ok? Saw your earlier comments, horrible for anyone to experience this, you must be gutted it was your pride an joy, as I am. I love the car, an is a dream come true for me. Not a wealthy man but a great car enthusiast. It will be repaired an back to its former glory! Good job I'm already divorced I think!!! Lol as soon would be I think!!


Thank goodness. It was a tough day the day I sold it. 

Honestly it was a proper cherished car. The missus always said there were 4 women in my life. Two daughters, her and "The Car"...


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## ifty (Jul 27, 2005)

I've recently had to use rac to repatriate my car from Germany took just over 2 weeks but the important thing was it came back in one piece in a covered trailer the company rac used was "on time" supposedly the same company transports the gtrs from the docks


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Yea, I'm in Birmingham but am spending the summer in Bulgaria, without the car now:sob:
Glad to hear RAC got ya car home in one piece, that's my biggest fear, have visions of it coming back scratched an dented!!

Not sure if I'm doing this right but the link above for the engine, did you say it's in Bulgaria?? Anymore info? Age? Mileage?? History?


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Should all be on there. The situation is you are both in the same country. Can meet and possibly do a deal. Then you are coming home to a fitment challenge not a source and rebuild challenge. All your ancilliaries are probably fine. Turbos, downpipes and injectors can all be salvaged. Once the broken engine is out, sell what you can that is in one piece!


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

If you've only had the car for 4 weeks from a stealer, shouldn't you be delivering it straight back to them to get your new engine for free?

Hello from Sofia BTW :wavey:


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## buzzysingh (Nov 19, 2012)

Simons GTR said:


> Yea, I'm in Birmingham but am spending the summer in Bulgaria, without the car now:sob:
> Glad to hear RAC got ya car home in one piece, that's my biggest fear, have visions of it coming back scratched an dented!!
> 
> Not sure if I'm doing this right but the link above for the engine, did you say it's in Bulgaria?? Anymore info? Age? Mileage?? History?


Simon, people have linked to two different engines.

One in Europe around £12k

A forged SVM for around £12k I think (Matt Miller). When you get a chance go through the pages and you'll see


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Did buy from a dealer but not with a warranty. I have called them if course, an they were pretty good an said they'll do wat they can for me once the car is back home.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Hi by the way lol.I'm near Albena on the coast.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

Simons GTR said:


> Did buy from a dealer but not with a warranty. I have called them if course, an they were pretty good an said they'll do wat they can for me once the car is back home.


If you bought it from a dealer you don't need a warranty, the law protects you -
Motor Trade Warranty Advice and Recommendations-Used Car Warranties, Dealer Guarantees and Service Contracts

4 weeks is a reasonable time to reject the car; obviously allow the dealer to make good if they choose.


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## Donga (Mar 3, 2013)

DonnyMac said:


> If you bought it from a dealer you don't need a warranty, the law protects you -
> Motor Trade Warranty Advice and Recommendations-Used Car Warranties, Dealer Guarantees and Service Contracts
> 
> 4 weeks is a reasonable time to reject the car; obviously allow the dealer to make good if they choose.


How does the dealer know that nothing has been done to it during the 4 weeks the new owner has had it, couldn't the dealer argue that it was in full working order prior to sale?


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

Of course it was in full working order prior to sale, he wouldn't have been able to drive it off the forecourt if it wasn't.

Being british is a fairly good thing in as much as we respect laws, well ones that don't involve arbitrary numbers, and one of them laws be a vehicle sold through a dealer must be fit for purpose - one that blows up in 4 weeks isn't.

(Don't be fobbed off with the no warranty bullshit btw)

Nothing much else matters if it goes to court, and it won't, and anyone sane that hears a chap bought a car worth £30-60k and it blew up within a month, a new engine will be forthcoming, with legal fees and consequential losses (I'm thinking a 458 Italia, but the OP may like to hire a different car)...

Or, the dealer can just fix it without the additional costs.

A reasonable amount of time is the test, 6 years is the maximum. 4 weeks is a hell of lot closer to the beginning than it is to 6 years.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Hi, so is this true?? If I buy from a dealer without a warranty I still have rights to return the vehicle or get it fixed?? Is this law or just kinda a gentleman's agreement


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

DonnyMac said:


> Of course it was in full working order prior to sale, he wouldn't have been able to drive it off the forecourt if it wasn't.
> 
> Being british is a fairly good thing in as much as we respect laws, well ones that don't involve arbitrary numbers, and one of them laws be a vehicle sold through a dealer must be fit for purpose - one that blows up in 4 weeks isn't.
> 
> ...


Isn't the onus on the buyer to prove the vehicle was inherently faulty at the time of the sale, even if the fault didn't manifest until a later date?


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## erol_h (Jun 13, 2008)

Good luck with this mate i hope it all goes well not exactly what you need. After about 3 months of ownership of a z4m i found out the first service was not done partly my fault for being trusting of the dealer and made the dealer take the car back was a long ordeal but go there in the end.


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## goRt (May 17, 2011)

Simons GTR said:


> Hi, so is this true?? If I buy from a dealer without a warranty I still have rights to return the vehicle or get it fixed?? Is this law or just kinda a gentleman's agreement


Nice and clear here on the gov's website:
Gloucestershire Trading Standards - Consumer Advice - Used motor vehicles - consumer rights


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Ok thanks guys. That makes things clearer. I have been in touch with the dealer an they have Saud they're willing to help, how far that 'help' goes we will see when we get car back home.
it's 29 degrees here in Albena, clear sky , Sun shine, perfect day for a cruise down the coast road in my absent GTR :dizzy_face::sob::confounded::angry: now I miss it!!


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

Mookistar said:


> Isn't the onus on the buyer to prove the vehicle was inherently faulty at the time of the sale, even if the fault didn't manifest until a later date?


Theres a cut off at a 'reasonable time' where the responsibility of prof changes from the dealer to the buyer.

For instance, your engine blows after three years, good luck with proving that it's the dealers responsibility (unless new etc), goes in the first six months, it's the dealers responsibility to prove you killed it.

Onus is on the dealer to prove it was your fault for a 'reasonable time', after which it switches to the buyer up to 6 years after purchase.

As a member of the public (who'll be making the decisions come court time) what period do you think is a reasonable amount of time for a £30-60k purchase to be fit for purpose?

Min 6 months or 6,000 miles on a MY09, 12 months and 9,000 miles on MY11 onward - increased everytime a satisfactory service is carried out.

The dealer is wholly responsible for sorting out this car - if you want to play nicely don't bill him for repatriation of the vehicle or out of pocket expenses - if there's a single mention of you paying him a contribution toward fixing it, reject the car immediately.


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## G2GUV (Dec 16, 2012)

DonnyMac said:


> Theres a cut off at a 'reasonable time' where the responsibility of prof changes from the dealer to the buyer.
> 
> For instance, your engine blows after three years, good luck with proving that it's the dealers responsibility (unless new etc), goes in the first six months, it's the dealers responsibility to prove you killed it.
> 
> ...


Absolutely SPOT ON!!!

I have been through something similar with a dealer. My advice would be to reject the car immediately! The dealer is UNLIKELY to go to Nissan for a new engine. Trust me - you do not want to have a GTR that some 'corner garage' has swapped an engine on! You are lucky you have bought from a dealer/trader, the law is with you. The dealer has very little hope proving in court that YOU killed the car within 4 weeks. I'm certain that this will not get to court! Its straight forward and simply in your favour!

The trader I had issues with trued all sorts of tactics, they had even written 'trade sale' on my invoice to avoid any future liability! That is illegal! A few stong emails later - I was offered a refund!

Do not wait until your car is back in the UK. Get an email out to the dealer now REJECTING the car. Advise them of the full circumstances, and request that your money be refunded within 7 days. (This is a reasonable amount of time). No doubt you will recieve some defensive response, and they will play the 'investigation needed' card. But they are then holding onto your money! Send them a follow up giving a further 7 days polite notice and clearly state that after this period, you will be hiring a like-for-like vehicle and claiming rental costs, as well as interest on your money that you are losing. (Circa 7%APR). Most big traders use companies like Lawgistics to protect them and deal withany legal come backs that they may have. They pay a subscription for these services - so you may hear something back from their legal reps! No matter how it is worded, just dobt worry! Its usually scare tactics. 

PM me if you need any help.

Good luck - and lets hope that this dealer is strong enough to bere this refund/return and doesn't go bust! :runaway:


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Does the fact that the car was modified and not factory standard make a difference in law?

Also given that the car was modified I doubt if the dealer would be able to get a company to underwrite a warranty on the car.


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## erol_h (Jun 13, 2008)

If the car was sold by the dealer with the mods on there then i don't think it should be a issue.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

This is incredible! Why have I never known this.

I am off to BMW right now, going to pick up a new M4 pay for it in cash.

Then I am going to sit outside the dealers bouncing it right off the limiter until it breaks. Then push it back into the dealer and with my solicitor on the other end of the phone send a mail in and get a refund.

Imagine the fun that could be had from this law....

We could club together and hire a portable dyno and head down to Maranello in egham. I could ruin all sorts of Ferrari and the only loss would be petrol.

Epic!!




DonnyMac said:


> Theres a cut off at a 'reasonable time' where the responsibility of prof changes from the dealer to the buyer.
> 
> For instance, your engine blows after three years, good luck with proving that it's the dealers responsibility (unless new etc), goes in the first six months, it's the dealers responsibility to prove you killed it.
> 
> ...


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

GTRSTILL said:


> This is incredible! Why have I never known this.
> 
> I am off to BMW right now, going to pick up a new M4 pay for it in cash.
> 
> ...



Actually you could. There is a Maximum permissible rev limit and a Maximum continuous rev limit - both are usually different. One is for driving and the other is stationary that the cooling package and valvetrain can withstand. 

Someone did it with a Vtec once. Didn't break.


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

vxrcymru said:


> Does the fact that the car was modified and not factory standard make a difference in law?
> 
> Also given that the car was modified I doubt if the dealer would be able to get a company to underwrite a warranty on the car.


Yes, it's far from black and white. For example the dealer could well argue that after 4 weeks you drove the nuts off it and it exploded. If this went to court it would not be open and shut, the law is heavily biased towards reasonable behaviour and the judge would probably ask the question of whether a heavily modified card should ever be presumed to have reliability in line with a standard car and, perhaps more importantly, whether or not the fault was present at the time of sale or manifested afterwards. 

You'd possibly get a partial settlement, which is what negotiating with the dealer may also result in.

Good luck in any case.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

Chaps who are questioning this or saying would a warranty company touch it if it was modified... Read the links that have been posted.

If you buy a car from a dealer, it doesn't matter whether they give you a shiny brochure from a warranty company, they are liable for the car for somewhere from a 'reasonable time' to 6 years.

They cannot get out of it as it is law.

The only variation is if they sell to another car dealer, they cannot write it is a trade sale if you yourself are not a trader as mentioned above.

Read the legislation.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

This whole thing amazes me! I never knew any kind of law existed like this.
Just for info, if we put another engine in the car an tune it all back up properly by the right people, does that affect the value of the car dramatically?? Resale value ??


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Resisting the immediate reaction to the word "properly" Simon 

I think if it's well documented by a reputable organisation it should not impact it.

GTR buyers will differ from say Ferrari buyers... Always


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

If you've got a documented rebuild or new engine from Litchfield / Kaizer (other garages are available) it may increase its value to the right buyer.

One question though, if you've driven a GTR for four weeks where on earth does even the slightest hint of selling it enter the equation?

:chuckle:


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

DonnyMac said:


> Chaps who are questioning this or saying would a warranty company touch it if it was modified... Read the links that have been posted.
> 
> If you buy a car from a dealer, it doesn't matter whether they give you a shiny brochure from a warranty company, they are liable for the car for somewhere from a 'reasonable time' to 6 years.
> 
> ...


I agree that if the dealer has knowingly sold the car as modified they must be prepared to honour some form of warranty. 

However in the past I have had dealers refuse to buy my modified cars or take them as part ex because they told me that the companies that underwrite their sales warranty would not touch a modified car with a barge pole.

I suspect here the garage will/should have to pay up out of their own pockets.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Lol, I know, as I said it was just for info, lol. It ain't going anywhere!! Apart from out of Germany an back home!! On that matter, RAC have now "authorised" repatriation of the car!! so apparently, the 3 weeks window they allow themselves to return the car begins!!! I am speechless.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Simons GTR said:


> Lol, I know, as I said it was just for info, lol. It ain't going anywhere!! Apart from out of Germany an back home!! On that matter, RAC have now "authorised" repatriation of the car!! so apparently, the 3 weeks window they allow themselves to return the car begins!!! I am speechless.


Can't you torch the car and claim on Insurance???
Joking :runaway:


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## borat52 (Jan 29, 2006)

DonnyMac said:


> Chaps who are questioning this or saying would a warranty company touch it if it was modified... Read the links that have been posted.
> 
> If you buy a car from a dealer, it doesn't matter whether they give you a shiny brochure from a warranty company, they are liable for the car for somewhere from a 'reasonable time' to 6 years.
> 
> They cannot get out of it as it is law.


That is the law, but its not a warranty. It's designed to ensure that the dealer sells a vehicle of merchantable quality at the time of sale. With used cars almost no faults would be covered up to 6 years (it would need to be something like the car cracking in half for no reason, or literally the engine falling out of the bottom of the car)


The problem in this instance is that you have a modified vehicle with an unknown 4 week period of use after the sale, and the engine has failed (most likely due to the modificaiton). 

In court this case would be very difficult to prove entirely in favour of the buyer, and in fact the judge may indeed ask if other cars of similar specification were susceptible to failure. The judge would also ask questions about the use of the car post sale, and if the oil was at the correct level.


You might be able to convince the judge that it's the dealers fault, but in my opinion (having taken a couple of smaller but similar cases to small claims, with differing levels of success) the judge might consider buying and then driving a modified vehicle hard beyond the scope of the dealers responsibility. 

The 4 week period is significant, its probably too long to be considered a fault at the time of sale (depending on mileage driven post sale) but it is also short enough to be a concern to the dealer.

If the car was standard, this would be much easier to prove liability.

The dealer should do something though, even if it's a partial settlement (they should waive their profit at very least).


Above all is it the dealers fault the car went pop? Did they knowingly sell a faulty product - that I think would be the onus of proof necessary to get a full settlement.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

*If You [dealer] Want to Dispute a Claim*

Under the amendments to Sale of Goods Act (EC Directive 1999/44/EC) if you want to *dispute a claim by a customer it's up to you [dealer] for the first six months to prove that the fault was not present at the time of sale.* However, *after the six months is it's up to your customer* to prove the vehicle was faulty when sold.


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## JohnE90M3 (May 31, 2010)

borat52 said:


> That is the law, but its not a warranty. It's designed to ensure that the dealer sells a vehicle of merchantable quality at the time of sale. With used cars almost no faults would be covered up to 6 years (it would need to be something like the car cracking in half for no reason, or literally the engine falling out of the bottom of the car)
> 
> 
> The problem in this instance is that you have a modified vehicle with an unknown 4 week period of use after the sale, and the engine has failed (most likely due to the modificaiton).
> ...


I would class this as a good "indicator" of the outcome, it is worth pursuing the seller for some compensation and hoping they come up with at least a contribution, however IF they have any legal experience they will vigorously oppose any claims.


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## Alexinphuket (Jan 25, 2012)

Shoot me down for asking, but what fuel was in the car when the engine went pop?


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

IMHO I doubt the dealer had anything to do with the issue unless they had a shitty employee go joy riding in it or pouring shit gas in the tank at the lot. ask what kind of gas they put in a few of the premium cars. was the tune for that kind of gas? if it wasn't the dealer, don't make them pay for something that was just a fluke.

you could investigate the remains of the engine to see the cause, it may or may not give you the answer.

it may have been just a fluke. some thing OEM broke just cause of the higher output.

or just put an OEM engine back in and enjoy it or put a beefy engine in it and enjoy it (or sell it).

question is... do you buy a tuned gtr if you don't have the funds to pay to play when something breaks????? everyone who mods are generally at risk of warranty decline depending on the fail and what caused it ... or if the dealer just denies it for a tune or whatever (maybe they don't like your shirt).


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## willgts (Jul 17, 2004)

Alexinphuket said:


> Shoot me down for asking, but what fuel was in the car when the engine went pop?


Good question.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

mindlessoath said:


> [snip]
> 
> question is... do you buy a tuned gtr if you don't have the funds to pay to play when something breaks????? everyone who mods are generally at risk of warranty decline depending on the fail and what caused it ... or if the dealer just denies it for a tune or whatever (maybe they don't like your shirt).


You buy from a dealer to be protected by the law - as outlined many times in this thread, this is different to a warranty which has also been explained.

You buy privately 'sold as seen' and you take your chances.

It doesn't matter if it's a 'fluke' an OEM part or a modified part that's gone bang, if the car is as sold it's the dealers problem and for them to prove it isn't for the first six months as I posted above.


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

the dealer can probably say it worked fine. looks like it worked fine for a few weeks too. 

did you ever log your tuned gtr? something I'm sure many new owners of a tuned gtr don't do that should?

hmm.. what oct is the tune for and what was put into the tank?

new owners don't get a manual for this kind of stuff usually. there just isn't one unless you know about it to begin with. did the dealer know everything about the tune/car and run logs? do they have specific instructions telling them what oct tune needed to be used? if not how is it there fault? I guess if they knew it had a tune they should have a policy to find out as much info as needed and to data log it.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

How different is this to the the new owner of an R32 bought from an import company car trader who fitted a boost controller cranked up the boost and blew up his turbos? While it's unfortunate that this has occurred it's a modified car how can a warranty company possibly cover it or the trader who sold the car be responsible for the next 6 years? More so after it appears a few people had been involved in the mechanical build and mapping of the car I wonder if these two points were known to the car trader?. What if something during the modification was done wrong?


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

We're not talking about warranties.

The OP has made no mention of him modifying the car from the specification he received it from the dealer.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

How can anyone provide a warranty on a modified car? I know litchfield do on their own built cars but I am sure they have negotiated a warranty package for their own work. Any third party company would not be too keen to cover work done by tuners who they have no agreements in place with.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

This isn't about warranties, that's what you're missing. It's consumer law.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Hi everyone, finally my beloved gtr returned home!! Arrived yesterday morning, that's only 5 weeks!!, thanks RAC :scream::sob:


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## JohnE90M3 (May 31, 2010)

Simons GTR said:


> Hi everyone, finally my beloved gtr returned home!! Arrived yesterday morning, that's only 5 weeks!!, thanks RAC :scream::sob:


Shite service from a ............... company.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

what have the supplying dealer had to say about it?


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Dealers been really good so far. Linked up with Litchfields so hopefully we can sort it out between us. Just want drive it again now.


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## gtrjav (Nov 2, 2013)

*Hi*

Hi there did you get your engine fixed


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Yes thanks it's at Litchfields now being sorted.


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## DonnyMac (Jun 21, 2012)

Excellent news.


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Hi everyone, just thought I'd give everyone an update. Finally I have my beloved GTR back! All crisp an clean an purring like a cat.
Big big thanks to Iain @ litchfields for a great service fitting New engine an tuning her back to life! Lol.
Big thanks also to Torque GT for sticking by me with all this an providing a very professional an supportive roll, top quality dealer.
Thanks also to all you guys for your help an advice in all of this. Looking forward to enjoying the car all over again!


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Great news and a two month turnaround isn't bad considering it took a while to get the car back to the UK. 

Did you refit a standard engine or forged? 

Dare we ask how much the dealer contributed?


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## Simons GTR (May 15, 2015)

Standard enginean tuned back up to stage 4.25. Which is more than enough for me. Don't think it would be right to discuss figures but let's just say I'd happily buy from dealer again. Both companies involved have been great!


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

sounds like a rare good news story - nice one!


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Simons GTR said:


> Standard enginean tuned back up to stage 4.25. Which is more than enough for me. Don't think it would be right to discuss figures but let's just say I'd happily buy from dealer again. Both companies involved have been great!


Great to see some good ones out there.

Did they get to the bottom of why the rod let go?


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