# Alcon BBK?



## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

My cars currently getting upgraded to the LM850 spec and was wondering would it need the Alcon big brake kit or could I get away with using upgraded Alcon disks all round? The car is never tracked and is only used for spirited drives :chuckle:


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## alex_123_fra (Mar 26, 2008)

Depends on how you drive on the road. I personally wouldn't if I wasn't tracking it but I only squeeze the throttle modestly and occasionally whether I am driving a low powered car or a high powered one.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

This will be driven a bit different to that :chuckle: I was just wondering whether I would need that sort of stopping power.


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## alex_123_fra (Mar 26, 2008)

At LM850, it will certainly help but the main benefits would be the ability to withstand repeated abuse (i.e. track conditions). So again, depends how you drive on the road. I know some people (not fellow GT-R owners) who drive on some roads almost as if they were on a track.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

I'm not too sure at the moment as I don't think they'll be entirely necessary for the road but I am getting them at an amazing price!


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## TEAM_KHAN (Oct 8, 2007)

i think hes gonna need an air brake on top of the bbk :clap:


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

Lol I think we might


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

The best thing about the Alcon Superkit is the lack of fade.
With that kind of power you don't want to be worrying about brake fade IMO.
I find they inspire real confidence.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

I think I'll be getting them then as the first option was to just upgrade the disks all round to Alcons but I'd rather not let this deal go to waste. Also the lack of fade is something which is needed for a car with that power.


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## RichF-R35 (Jun 16, 2012)

How much of a bargain are you getting then if your willing to reveal?

Rich


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

Quite a lot less than the normal price  It's best to contact Iain for best pricing.


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## TEAM_KHAN (Oct 8, 2007)

R35 Boxer said:


> Quite a lot less than the normal price  It's best to contact Iain for best pricing.


Was gonna say! lol


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Do it.

Worth it for the looks alone. The stock will stop you just not repeatedly. It all comes down to feel though.

Basically you always know your brakes will be there for you.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

I think with this sort of power the Alcons are necessary. My old brakes did work but would fade after a while so the Alcons should be a big improvement.


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## RizzyGTR (Nov 18, 2012)

I would definitely consider the bbk at 850, I have the upgraded alcons all round and even find them lacking towards the end of a decent "run". I'm actually seriously consiDering getting the bbk and I'm only on a stage 2. I don't like the fact that the response from the brakes is inconsistent and feel that I'll enjoy the car even more knowing it will stop when I want it too. I'm hoping I can use the upgraded alcons and pagids that I have already and just have to purchase the callipers but I've got a sneeky feeling that it's not that simple. In short if I was u I would def buy them if I was getting a great price.


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

If I were going to that power stage I would definitely upgrade the stopping power because you how quickly these beasts reach stupid speeds and that last thing you want to know then is you can't stop quick enough.... Go for it bro your safety comes first


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

I have the BBK and I can perform high speed full stops multiple times without fade. They really are as good as people say. I am upgrading to the carbon soon purely for saving rotating mass.


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## RichF-R35 (Jun 16, 2012)

Obviously a great upgrade and they look stunning but IMO with a £10k price tag all but £46 is just rediculous. By the sounds of it you've got a good deal, go for it:thumbsup:

Rich


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## JamieP (Jun 5, 2006)

RichF-R35 said:


> Obviously a great upgrade and they look stunning but IMO with a £10k price tag all but £46 is just rediculous. By the sounds of it you've got a good deal, go for it:thumbsup:
> 
> Rich


Have a look about and you can get them a lot cheaper than that Rich, I recently had a quote of 5900+vat.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

JamieP said:


> Have a look about and you can get them a lot cheaper than that Rich, I recently had a quote of 5900+vat.


Thats an amazing price Jamie, where was that from!?! Damn I thought Id get that for mine used!


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## RichF-R35 (Jun 16, 2012)

JamieP said:


> Have a look about and you can get them a lot cheaper than that Rich, I recently had a quote of 5900+vat.


thats a bit better, was that the set from DD31 Jamie?


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## JamieP (Jun 5, 2006)

Dan at JDL


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't doubt these would be a fantastic addition to the car especially if you are doing a lot of track events but for normal road use with some spirited blasts these must surely be overkill when you think of the braking power that a decent disc/pad combination can serve up? 

Either I am driving mine like a bit of a girl or some folks on here are going a bit over the top on the road to have to be worrying about fade:runaway:

Anyway as long as you can justify the spend to yourself if you want them get them as they will certainly be better and its another box ticked on he 'mods to have that the wife can't ever find out how much they cost' list :thumbsup:


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Almost 4 years of ownership and plenty of high speed track time and I've never experienced brake fade.

Pick the right pads and brake fluid for the job, and the OEM rotor size is IMHO, just fine.

The OEM rotors and pads are a different matter of course.


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

After hearing everyone's comments I think I'll put the order in for the Big Brake Kit as I want the car to inspire confidence when driving it and not be in any doubt about fade.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I bought them because they were pretty, reason enough I think!


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## RichF-R35 (Jun 16, 2012)

Adamantium said:


> I bought them because they were pretty, reason enough I think!


lol, your right they do look nice, specially on a DMG


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Look even better on a DMG Matt as they shine!


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## Takamo (Oct 18, 2005)

You know it makes sense... More power equals more common sense which equals bigger stopping power


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

apart from fade did everyone who has the big break kit notice a significant stopping improvement?


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

Lol they are a good looking set of brakes. I hope they do have a significant stopping improvement!


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## asiasi (Dec 22, 2007)

I have been out in a SVM 900r a few times with a Dixcel set up and it was more than adequate.

Alcons do look superb though :thumbsup:


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Seriously, with aftermarket OEM size rotors, better pads and a decent fluid, you'll struggle to get brake fade on the GTR.

The BBK is an awesome looking piece of kit, but the idea that you need it to prevent brake fade is honestly misleading.

Add in some better cooling ducts if you're that worried.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

What Charle said on fade, I've not experienced fade with my Alcon discs / Pagid RS29 combo with 6-7 hot laps around Silverstone in the summer. This is much harder on brakes than a sprited drive down county lanes or A-roads. It's the equivalent of 25 miles racing on road with speeds up to 160mph slowing to 80mph like an emergency stop, no fade.

For road use, I'd say BBK is perhaps overkill from a braking perspective but if you have the money and want the best brake kit then why not.

Anders


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## RizzyGTR (Nov 18, 2012)

I have the uprated alcons with pagids but on occasion when required it seems spongy and lacks bite, would you say changing brake fluid and braids would help to improve the performance? Any advice much appreciated.[


QUOTE=charles charlie;1750651]Seriously, with aftermarket OEM size rotors, better pads and a decent fluid, you'll struggle to get brake fade on the GTR.

The BBK is an awesome looking piece of kit, but the idea that you need it to prevent brake fade is honestly misleading.

Add in some better cooling ducts if you're that worried.[/QUOTE]


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

I forgot to mention (although others did) that they look fab. :bowdown1:

Before...









After...


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Spongy pedal means the fluid has become more compressible and usually means gases being released from the fluid or water contamination.

I always swap out the fluid after each track day or every 6 months if I havent had the time to be on track. I always do a swap once winter is over too.

It's the single cheapest and most effective thing you can do to your GTR to keep optimum brake efficiency.

The GTR brake pipes are fine as is and personally see no need to upgrade the very short lengths that are accessible.

The pagids are not the best for initial bite and it should be said that everybody prefers a different feel and it can sometimes take a few different pads before you find the one that you prefer.

Also, there isnt a single pad which is the perfect all rounder. What's good on track can be hard to live with on the road (squeal, poor braking efficiency at low temps etc) so sometimes you'll lose out in some areas to improve in others.

So far I've used

OEM
EBC yellowstuff
PF .01
Carbone Lorraine RC5+
Carbonetic R-spec
Pagid RS29

Best track pad was the PF .01 but they were horrid for dust which attacked my paintwork and alloys, and now the RS29s are great except I do prefer a bit moe initial bite which the r-specs had. Sadly the r-specs grumbled like crazy (which others havent found btw).

The yellowstuff had me off at Millbrook with Colin Hoad after 2 laps of the handling circuit with no brake effect at all (pedal was strong), and the RC5+ smoked after 2 sighting laps at Donnington.

All in all there isnt a "one pad fits all" and it'll depend upon your personal preferences and what you're going to do with them.

The BBK is a lovely piece of kit, albeit very expensive, and imho is overkill for 99% of GTRs. You are also limited to just the RS29s for them too (unless that has changed) so if you're not happy with that pad you're a bit screwed.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

charles charlie said:


> The BBK is a lovely piece of kit, albeit very expensive, and imho is overkill for 99% of GTRs. You are also limited to just the RS29s for them too (unless that has changed) so if you're not happy with that pad you're a bit screwed.


I believe you can use two different pads.
The stock system doesn't come with the RS29 _I think_.


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

charles charlie said:


> ... You are also limited to just the RS29s for them too (unless that has changed) so if you're not happy with that pad you're a bit screwed.


EBC make pads for the BBK (I am running the Orange Stuff at the mo in mine), you can also get the RS9-2 compound for the BBK (OEM for the kit itself) and CarboTech also have a pattern for the backplates and can offer all their usual compounds. I was also doing some work with Project Mu to get pads made for the BBK but those guys can be really unreliable which is a pity as they make some great pads.


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## RizzyGTR (Nov 18, 2012)

charles charlie said:


> Spongy pedal means the fluid has become more compressible and usually means gases being released from the fluid or water contamination.
> 
> I always swap out the fluid after each track day or every 6 months if I havent had the time to be on track. I always do a swap once winter is over too.
> 
> ...



Awesome, much appreciated, ive got my 2 year service coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully will help and will take it from there. I have the ebc yellow stuff on my 535d which is running 360 bhp and the bite is awesome (I've also got uprated discs which helps). Would you say the standard oem brake fluid is sufficient?


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Ah well that makes much better reading for anyone wanting the BBK.

How do the pad price compare to standard R35 from the same manufacturer?


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

charles charlie said:


> Ah well that makes much better reading for anyone wanting the BBK.
> 
> How do the pad price compare to standard R35 from the same manufacturer?


They are about on a par.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

RizzyGTR said:


> Awesome, much appreciated, ive got my 2 year service coming up in 2 weeks so hopefully will help and will take it from there. I have the ebc yellow stuff on my 535d which is running 360 bhp and the bite is awesome (I've also got uprated discs which helps). Would you say the standard oem brake fluid is sufficient?


For what better fluid costs, I'd go with Castrol SRF or AP racing PRF660 as these dont cost the earth (although SRF is the most expensive fluid you'll find I think!).

OEM is fine but you're paying a premium for not necessarily the best out there.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Arcam said:


> They are about on a par.


Really? What a pleasant surprise!

How about the rotors?


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

Andy, have you noticed a drop off in performance if you don't change the fluid after a track day? I ran all of last years track days on the same fluid without bleeding and they felt fine. I use Castrol SRF.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Anders_R35 said:


> Andy, have you noticed a drop off in performance if you don't change the fluid after a track day? I ran all of last years track days on the same fluid without bleeding and they felt fine. I use Castrol SRF.


I did a couple of track days back to back and didnt notice anything untoward (that was SRF) but was advised by an ex Ferrari instructor that you'll never know when that drop off is coming.

So better safe than sorry and given the low cost of swapping it out (my local mech does it for £20) I'm happy to splurge a little on the one link in the braking chain that can make a difference to safety, yet costs so little.

To keep costs down I switched to PRF660 and didnt notice anything different at any point on track or road.

Probably after every track day is overkill but each to their own.


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

Why don't you just paint the stock callipers the same colour as the Alcons and save yourself about £7k


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

Stevie76 said:


> Why don't you just paint the stock callipers the same colour as the Alcons and save yourself about £7k


Lol that can be an option


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## cormeist (Jan 2, 2013)

Can't get my head round why people don't got for a AP BBK?? Do they do one? Surly it would be cheaper


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## splking (May 11, 2012)

Hi all,

I have the Dixcel set up, 400mm front rotors + race pad + braided lines + new fluid. They are better than stock, but I cant compare them against anything else as I've not been in a car with anything other than stock brakes. On braking I achieve around 1.1g straight line braking from around 80-90mph slamming on the anchors. Not sure how that compares? I am thinking I should be expecting better.... I have new MPSS 285/305 setup, 2.2bar pressures, and litcho suspension. I've heard of better braking G's. Also when the car was last with Iain he mentioned that the discs had become hot from heavy braking and expanded but to an extent where the spacers had not allowed enough room so I had a small groove in the calipers from where the disk and pad had made contact when the system is really hot. I think in hindsight I would have preffered to spend the extra on the BBK, heard only great things about them.

H


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

charles charlie said:


> I did a couple of track days back to back and didnt notice anything untoward (that was SRF) but was advised by an ex Ferrari instructor that you'll never know when that drop off is coming.
> 
> So better safe than sorry and given the low cost of swapping it out (my local mech does it for £20) I'm happy to splurge a little on the one link in the braking chain that can make a difference to safety, yet costs so little.
> 
> ...


I might change the fluid mid season to play safe.

Off topic, but one other change to schedule over last year is wheel alignment. The car was well out on 12 month optimisation, so I'll have it checked mid season.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Going to do a side by side test for you now. 





splking said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have the Dixcel set up, 400mm front rotors + race pad + braided lines + new fluid. They are better than stock, but I cant compare them against anything else as I've not been in a car with anything other than stock brakes. On braking I achieve around 1.1g straight line braking from around 80-90mph slamming on the anchors. Not sure how that compares? I am thinking I should be expecting better.... I have new MPSS 285/305 setup, 2.2bar pressures, and litcho suspension. I've heard of better braking G's. Also when the car was last with Iain he mentioned that the discs had become hot from heavy braking and expanded but to an extent where the spacers had not allowed enough room so I had a small groove in the calipers from where the disk and pad had made contact when the system is really hot. I think in hindsight I would have preffered to spend the extra on the BBK, heard only great things about them.
> 
> H


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Ok im out now. 2oc temp and a little moist i can get 1.4g before ABS with a few tries but an aberage of 1.3. With abs 1.1. Tyres as warm as they are going to get, brakes very warm, normal tarmac not ahel grip. Circa 90leptons. 

Litchfield suspension on normal. 

Hope this helps.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

I read a thread across the pond where they claimed 1.6g on track using threshold braking. Most I have managed on track is 1.25g.

Edit, here's the link

http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic...kit-track-test-and-review/page__fromsearch__1


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

I took a photo ots a bit blury but you can just make it out. I rekon 1.6 is easy with r888 and a warm track.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Just got back home. Was nice driving the car on 1 bar for a change. 

The alcons really are superb. This is the first time ive really used them hard over and over, ok it was cold and on a road but I couldnt get them up to the right temp for optimal braking and i was doing maybe 20 stints. 

Cant wait for track.


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## playasyougo (Nov 29, 2003)

If it's for track use Mintex are to be considered. A friend has an Evo with AP 5000+ calipers and has used the Pagid range. Although he has seen good results he is getting better with Mintex F4R.

_Mintex F Series Racing Friction Composites

The F Series of composites were designed to outperform all existing racing compounds sold on the market today. Driver friendly pedal control and feedback, superior disc finish and long pad life even under the highest temperature applications are attributed engineered into each of the 'F' series compounds.

Mintex F1R

Designed from the outset to give uncompromising High Torque with a level of control not found in racing friction sold to date. F1R will allow the highest levels of decleration with an ability to feel and control impending wheel lock up. This broad threshold has allowed braking zones to be extended further into the apex then has ever been previously possible. In addition to the unparalleled degree of feedback, F1R also delivers superior disc conditioning that translates into superior pad life compared with any of our competitors high friction materials.

Race Proven in CART, applications should be high downforce, high mechanical grip applications to include CART, LMP, WSC, F3, Indy Lights etc.

Mintex F2R

Derived from the F1R compound, F2R offers the same broad threshold pedal feel and control but with less torque. Less torque does not equate to less power as F2R was formulated for those classes having high-speed, high-horsepower cars that do not derive high grip levels through aerodynamic downforce. The user can expect superior pedal feel with outstanding disc finish and exceptional pad life in operating temperatures found in the highest forms of racing. Race Proven in NASCAR applications will include NASCAR, Touring Car, Late Model, Trans Am, F-3, F-Atlantic etc.

Mintex F4R

The F4R compound is slightly lower in overall friction to the F2R. It is however very easy to bed and is very user friendly making it suitable for club racing and light vehicle application. Fade resistant at temperatures exceeding 1000 degrees C. F4R offers a high level of pedal feel, high overall friction and stability over a broad range of temperatures with long pad life.

Sedan, Saloon, Showroom stock, Light open wheel, Late model, Sport racing and Group N.

Mintex F6R

F6R was formulated to address specific applications needing medium to low torque with a high temperature threshold. These applications are almost all rear axle applications for front wheel drive and for live axle rear wheel drive applications. High heat tolerances with consistent repeatability were the two major requirements for this formulation. NASACAR, Endurance racing, Group N, Touring Cars etc._


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Anders_R35 said:


> I read a thread across the pond where they claimed 1.6g on track using threshold braking. Most I have managed on track is 1.25g.
> 
> Edit, here's the link
> 
> Forged Performance: Alcon GT-R Super Kit Track Test and Review - Brakes - GT-R Life


is that a peak or sustained? 1.6 sounds really high without downforce. 1.25 is more what I'd expect with physics being the limiting factor rather than the braking system (until/if fade kicks) or tyres.


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## splking (May 11, 2012)

I have heard sustained 1.3-1.4g possible with the BBK kit, I know that with the setup I have got and me behind the wheel I cant seem to get that, 1.1 is around what I get with 1.2 peak. They have these brakes on the time attack car (my Dixcel), and they speak very highly of them, given that I was kind of expecting better on mine. I really must experience these BBK's next time I am at Litchfields. 

H


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

mags993tt said:


> is that a peak or sustained? 1.6 sounds really high without downforce. 1.25 is more what I'd expect with physics being the limiting factor rather than the braking system (until/if fade kicks) or tyres.


I suspect it's peak g when braking from high speed. For example when your going 160mph you can lob on brakes as hard as you like and the wheels don't lock up.

At lower speeds they will lock up more easily.

Anders


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Anders_R35 said:


> I suspect it's peak g when braking from high speed. For example when your going 160mph you can lob on brakes as hard as you like and the wheels don't lock up.
> 
> At lower speeds they will lock up more easily.
> 
> Anders


Indeed, also braking on an incline will increase the G by a % too as well as a lot of other factors.


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

cormeist said:


> Can't get my head round why people don't got for a AP BBK?? Do they do one? Surly it would be cheaper


AP don't make one.


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## cormeist (Jan 2, 2013)

Arcam said:


> AP don't make one.


Strange dont you think? I had a AP BBK on my R33 GTR and boy that hauled Ass!! Would of though that AP would offer a kit... They offer a Disc upgrade


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

cormeist said:


> Strange dont you think? I had a AP BBK on my R33 GTR and boy that hauled Ass!! Would of though that AP would offer a kit... They offer a Disc upgrade


Not really, AP are owned by Brembo and TBH the stock calipers are pretty damn good, not as good an my BBK buy for oem are brill, coupled with decent discs and pads it will suit most folk.


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## cormeist (Jan 2, 2013)

Yup makes sense Arcam, reading the Forum unless im doing lots of T/D's i think i'll stick to the Disc upgrade, Does the Alcon 400mm upgrade allow for BBK Caliper in the future??


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

cormeist said:


> Yup makes sense Arcam, reading the Forum unless im doing lots of T/D's i think i'll stick to the Disc upgrade, Does the Alcon 400mm upgrade allow for BBK Caliper in the future??


No the 400mm aftermarket Alcon disk is not the same as the 400mm one in the BBK, personally I would use the AP390mm disc setup in preference to the 400mm Alcon.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Arcam said:


> No the 400mm aftermarket Alcon disk is not the same as the 400mm one in the BBK, personally I would use the AP390mm disc setup in preference to the 400mm Alcon.


Any specific reason(s) for this? I am looking at the upgrade in a few months time for my 2010 GTR with stage 4 mods.


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

grahamc said:


> Any specific reason(s) for this? I am looking at the upgrade in a few months time for my 2010 GTR with stage 4 mods.


I think the "400mm" oem replacement disc a bit of a gimmick, it has had a few issues when used on track (rubbing the caliper to mention just one) which has resulted in them reducing the diameter of this down to 39x, IMHO AP have a better solution and their bell design on their 390 is top notch, it can also be fitted to pre 2011 cars as they will supply the spacer kit (on request) for the caliper and these do not rub.


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## grahamc (Oct 1, 2006)

Arcam said:


> I think the "400mm" oem replacement disc a bit of a gimmick, it has had a few issues when used on track (rubbing the caliper to mention just one) which has resulted in them reducing the diameter of this down to 39x, IMHO AP have a better solution and their bell design on their 390 is top notch, it can also be fitted to pre 2011 cars as they will supply the spacer kit (on request) for the caliper and these do not rub.


Great thanks - I was/am looking at the Alcon and AP big disc replacements


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

Arcam said:


> I think the "400mm" oem replacement disc a bit of a gimmick, it has had a few issues when used on track (rubbing the caliper to mention just one) which has resulted in them reducing the diameter of this down to 39x, IMHO AP have a better solution and their bell design on their 390 is top notch, it can also be fitted to pre 2011 cars as they will supply the spacer kit (on request) for the caliper and these do not rub.


Hi Arcam, was the rubbing an issue on the my11 car's?


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

R35 Boxer said:


> My cars currently getting upgraded to the LM850 spec and was wondering would it need the Alcon big brake kit or could I get away with using upgraded Alcon disks all round? The car is never tracked and is only used for spirited drives :chuckle:


Yes. I was the first to have the full kit on my car and it was the best tuning mod I ever did !!


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## Turbotwo (Jan 28, 2011)

Steve said:


> Yes. I was the first to have the full kit on my car and it was the best tuning mod I ever did !!


Which pads are you on Steve?


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## R35 Boxer (Aug 12, 2012)

Steve said:


> Yes. I was the first to have the full kit on my car and it was the best tuning mod I ever did !!


A lot of mixed opinions on what to go for but I think I'll bite the bullet and go for the Big brake kit


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

errr, the pads are the very, very, very, expensive ones that came with the kit, can***8217;t remember what compound but I use the car for track work and they are superb !

Yes, there are mixed opinions about everything with GTR's !!!

In my experience, I went through 3 different manufactures and brake kits with the R33 which cost me as much as the BBK, so I bit the bullet as I knew what and how I was going to use the car and just went for it ! I know there are other options now, but I am more than happy with them.


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## markleach (Jun 29, 2009)

Vernonjones said:


> I have the BBK and I can perform high speed full stops multiple times without fade. They really are as good as people say. I am upgrading to the carbon soon purely for saving rotating mass.


Have you tried a car with the carbon ceramics,intrested because I run the bbk and am thinking of upgrading to the CCX as well


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

What more stopping power do you think that you would get with the CCX ?


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

markleach said:


> Have you tried a car with the carbon ceramics,intrested because I run the bbk and am thinking of upgrading to the CCX as well




Out of interest, what kind of cost is the upgrade?


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Vernonjones said:


> I have the BBK and I can perform high speed full stops multiple times without fade. They really are as good as people say. I am upgrading to the carbon soon purely for saving rotating mass.


if ccx anything like the carbon ceramics on my GT3 then no brake dust either :thumbsup:

interested to know "upgrade" price too but imagine everything needs to be changed?


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Group buy ?? (for us BBK Kings LOL)


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## Turbotwo (Jan 28, 2011)

mags993tt said:


> if ccx anything like the carbon ceramics on my GT3 then no brake dust either :thumbsup:
> 
> interested to know "upgrade" price too but imagine everything needs to be changed?


Pretty sure you can swop iron for ceramic discs on the Alcon bbk if that`s what you mean?


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## splking (May 11, 2012)

Looking at the JDL website gives you an idea of the CCX price, i guess you're looking at dbl the price of the BBK's. Not sure what the race kit is all about, sounds intriguing. 

Hmmm i really do want a BBK kit on mine... so so tempted. The costs quickly add up on gtr modding hey... insane. 

Nissan R35 GT-R ? Alcon brakes ? pads, discs & kits - JDL-Brakes.com

H


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Turbotwo said:


> Pretty sure you can swop iron for ceramic discs on the Alcon bbk if that`s what you mean?


Yep that's what I was wondering. Might be wrong but would think the pads need to be different too so that's discs plus pads at least but if the calipers don't need changing then may make it viable at some point as an upgrade.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Yes, calipers stay the same.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

CT17 said:


> Yes, calipers stay the same.


That's good to know thanks. Unless there is some huge marketing mark up on a brand new CCX kit then it means that a ccx disc plus pad per corner is of the order of an incremental £2k at least which sounds painful for a wear and tear item..


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

Steve said:


> Group buy ?? (for us BBK Kings LOL)


I'd be interested in this - might even stretch to CCX if there was a significant discount. How good are your negotiating skills steve:squintdan


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Found the RRP's. Without discounts:

Alcon BBK Super kit = £9,950 inc VAT (know you can get it cheaper but comparing like with like).

Alcon CCX Super kit = £18,000 inc VAT (don't know what discounts are offered on these).

So seeing as the calipers are the same then the disc and pads are £8k more than whatever the steel ones are whenever you need them changed unless the kit has a huge premium on it. So the bill for discs and pads would be £11k plus unless there was a discount but they do last longer :chuckle:

Think I'd be afraid to use them if spares were not heavily discounted for people that already owned them as well as discount on initial purchase?


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

I'd be weary of going CCX, there was a thread across the pond where Shawn killed his CCM disc in two years. He did abuse them going down to metal backing plate but I'm still not sure they will pay in terms of longevity vs replacing iron discs on a more regular basis.

The death of a CCM rotor - Brakes - GT-R Life

Might be worth asking Litchfield what other brake pad options there are now as this thread talks about more options from Carbotech and Endless. More aggressive pads on the iron rotors might be the way forward.

Alcon GT-R Super Kit Race Version: Big Brake Kit Review and Track Test at Road Atlanta - Brakes - GT-R Life


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

mags993tt said:


> Found the RRP's. Without discounts:
> 
> Alcon BBK Super kit = £9,950 inc VAT (know you can get it cheaper but comparing like with like).
> Alcon CCX Super kit = £18,000 inc VAT (don't know what discounts are offered on these).


You just put me off. :nervous:

Was looking around myself and you are probably looking at £8k or so to upgrade, with a bit of discount.
For what I do with the car, weekend fun and a few track days it's noth worth it over the very impressive Superkit.


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## markleach (Jun 29, 2009)

I've been quoted £9.5k plus vat to upgrade from Bbk to CCX so over 11k to change discs and pads,so will leave it untill prices come down


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

I do hope this technology comes down in price. Non sticking/rusting, dust free brakes that never fade are the way forwards.


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

mags993tt said:


> Found the RRP's. Without discounts:
> 
> Alcon BBK Super kit = £9,950 inc VAT (know you can get it cheaper but comparing like with like).
> 
> Alcon CCX Super kit = £18,000 inc VAT (don't know what discounts are offered on these).


JDL have the CCX showing on their website at £14k, £10.5k for the BBK CCX upgrade.


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## markleach (Jun 29, 2009)

Jasper013 said:


> JDL have the CCX showing on their website at £14k, £10.5k for the BBK CCX upgrade.


Plus vat


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

markleach said:


> Plus vat


Not sure - it does show as 'Total' price.


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## mags993tt (Feb 3, 2011)

Jasper013 said:


> Not sure - it does show as 'Total' price.


the site adds VAT to those numbers when you try to check out.


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## markleach (Jun 29, 2009)

Jasper013 said:


> Not sure - it does show as 'Total' price.


Prices have vat and shipping will be added depending on location under them


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

Anyone stuck on to a set of Alcon CCX's recently?
Any feed back welcome.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

I have tha Alcon BBK - Fantastic


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Jasper013 said:


> Anyone stuck on to a set of Alcon CCX's recently?
> Any feed back welcome.


Not heard of anyone running them myself. But then I rarely go into the project cars section.
Would be interesting to hear how they compare, the upgrade cost is around the cost of the BBK again IIRC.


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Ive just put an order in for them to convert my BBK to Ceramic. Ill keep you posted when they are on.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Vernonjones said:


> Ive just put an order in for them to convert my BBK to Ceramic. Ill keep you posted when they are on.


Roughly how much is it as an upgrade?


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Pmed


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Not important for me to reply, but your message box is full Vernon.
Just for info.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I think they are a complete waste of money. 

Disk longevity not proven compared with steel £ for £.
US threads have shown them to not stand up so well to serious abuse (could be the fault of running on low pads).
Low temp performance is worse than steel so less ideal or road use.

As far as I can tell, it's just about unsprung mass and rotational mass. Unsprung reduction is good, but there are MUCH cheaper ways of getting better reductions suh as tyres and wheels, the benefit of which is increased due to the larger radius than the disks.


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

Agree - to a point.
Its early days for sure but the bottom line for me is that I only want to attend to this once and so far, my reading of the info would suggest there are benefits even for fast road use. These are big machines and with further engine mods planned I need to know it will stop when required (repeatedly if necessary) without worrying. 
Re: Longevity.
Probably an issue for the next guy :squintdan

Hell of a price though



Adamantium said:


> I think they are a complete waste of money.
> 
> Disk longevity not proven compared with steel £ for £.
> US threads have shown them to not stand up so well to serious abuse (could be the fault of running on low pads).
> ...


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Then do it in stages. Get the bbk, I would be shocked if there was ever a time you couldn't rely on the brakes, they are simply amazing, all the time. If they don't perform to your standards, you can pay he upgrade price, and that will have cost you less than going straight for the CCX plus the set of steel discs you used on your trial.

Best case you don't need the CCX and you saved about £9k, worst case you wasted less than he price of some discs trying them out.


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

But it is cheaper to go straight to the CCX than have the BBK and then the CCX upgrade is it not?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

The difference is less than the steel brakes disks cost to buy on their own.

Give Iain a call and ask him about it. I am certain the "normal" bbk will deliver everything you want.

The cost of doing it my way is a small gamble compared with the extra price of the CCX.

If you knw quickly you could sell the slightly used steel disks to someone like me.

Worst case scenario you lose a few hundred pounds - it's just not going to happen!


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

From a trawl of the internet, pricing seems to be:

BBK: £8k.
CCX: £14k.
CCX upgrade for BBK: £10k.

Can you really get the CCX upgrade kit for less than a set of steel disks?

Because those figures suggest going BBK then upgrading is a good way to burn £4k, with the upgrade costing more than the original kit.



edit: without VAT


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## Tin (Aug 15, 2010)

Anyone have any prices for new replacement steel discs? (Don't need them yet, just curious!)


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## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Jasper013 said:


> But it is cheaper to go straight to the CCX than have the BBK and then the CCX upgrade is it not?


Unless you absolutely punish the car on track for more than 5 hot laps, or you want to remove rotating mass, then the BBK is more than enough (I speak from experience). Just the other day - 14o Day, Castle coombe, 4 hot laps and the brakes were perfect every time. Also turns out my pads were less than 20%!


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ok have been beaten into submission and have decided on the BBK:chairshot
Spoke to a couple of people and consensus seems to be that despite Alcons claim, the CCX is not great when cold (not compared to BBK). 

Vernonjones - still interested in your feedback when you get your CCX.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

CT, the ccx were much more than 14+ last time I checked. £22k retail I thought.

I wasn't saying the upgrade was the price of replacement disks, was saying that bbk plus upgrade can be had for than ccx plus replacement steel discs.


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

Could I suggest you hold hard and wait for a review on the full Performance Friction test which I may have heard will be coming in next 24 or so....... ;-)

Mr Miskin over to you.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

Would be great to see Vbox braking g-force data from the morning when MPSS were on, so it's a valid comparison on your last Silverstone visit. And data with R888 fitted.


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## Ja5on (Nov 18, 2009)

Jasper013 said:


> Ok have been beaten into submission and have decided on the BBK:chairshot
> Spoke to a couple of people and consensus seems to be that despite Alcons claim, the CCX is not great when cold (not compared to BBK).
> 
> Vernonjones - still interested in your feedback when you get your CCX.


You tart


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Had the BBK on track again today at Silverstone.

Simply stunning.
Constant late braking in every corner, full confidence in them and no change of feel to them even after 15 or so hard minutes.

Most definitley my favorite GT-R mod.


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## Stevie76 (Dec 17, 2009)

I think I have to try these at some stage....still can't quite see how they can be that much better than a good disc/pad combo but with all the great reviews I suppose there must be something in them.


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

CT17 said:


> Had the BBK on track again today at Silverstone.
> 
> Simply stunning.
> Constant late braking in every corner, full confidence in them and no change of feel to them even after 15 or so hard minutes.
> ...


Glad to hear it CT, you on standard RS9-2 or the RS29's?
Looking forward to getting these on.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Stevie76 said:


> I think I have to try these at some stage....still can't quite see how they can be that much better than a good disc/pad combo but with all the great reviews I suppose there must be something in them.


If we meet up at an event you can come out in mine.

I've had people passenger who are running the Alcon 400mm front discs with upgraded pads and they were surprised how much better the BBK is.
Just as well really, considering the price...


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

Ja5on said:


> You tart


Had to be done


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## Henry 145 (Jul 15, 2009)

Stevie76 said:


> I think I have to try these at some stage....still can't quite see how they can be that much better than a good disc/pad combo but with all the great reviews I suppose there must be something in them.


I have the 'normal' Alcon 400mm with Pagid RS29 's and they are spot on - great braking, fade resistance - more than good enough for me


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Jasper013 said:


> Glad to hear it CT, you on standard RS9-2 or the RS29's?
> Looking forward to getting these on.


Stock pads the BBK comes with. Practically no dust and reliable strong performance so I didn't feel the need to uprate the pads.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Rog,

Much as i love performance friction, I wouldn't care what they are bringing out with knowing what Alcon put into these. Other than price I just don't know how you could improve on them. I've never known anyone to go beyond their limits, ever. They are just astounding. I've used mine once on a brief track session at a cat dt day and was shocked by what they could do if used in real anger.

On top of that, it's nice to support British industry.


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

Adamantium said:


> Rog,
> 
> Much as olive performance friction, I wouldn't care what they are vonj v out with knowing what Alcon put into these. Other than price I just don't know how you could improve on them. I've never known anyone to go beyond their limits, ever. They are dini astounding. I've used mine once on a brief track session at a car dt day and wasn't shocked by what they could do if used in real anger.
> 
> On top if that, it's nice to support British industry.


iPad moment? Agreed for the money they are supposed to be superb but just be interesting to hear what John M has to say after today at Silverstone - I am not sure anyone is harder or has been through as many sets of brakes as him.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

iPhone this time. Sorted now.


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

Adamantium said:


> iPhone this time. Sorted now.


Thank goodness, you had me worried.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Well to add oil into the fire, Eddie (arcam) is removing his as he apparently prefers a former set-up.

Dont know anymore that that so hopefully he will post up further details.

In my opinion, if you have £9k+ to blow on brakes - do it as theres not much too improve but for many thats a lot of dough when less than half that amount will get you 90%+ of the advantage.

David


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

whats cheaper alcon (not the bbk) discs or AP?


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Impossible said:


> whats cheaper alcon (not the bbk) discs or AP?


AP only do 380mm whereas Alcon do 380mm and 400mm - AP is marginally cheaper than the same sized Alcon and the 400 is a step-up in cost from both.

David


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

i thought ap did 390mm and thats what arcam was getting?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

sumo69 said:


> Well to add oil into the fire, Eddie (arcam) is removing his as he apparently prefers a former set-up.


What's the reason for that? Is it more to do with pad choice?


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Impossible said:


> i thought ap did 390mm and thats what arcam was getting?


Perhaps - its been a while since I checked disc sizes.

Would be good if Arcam would let us have his thoughts.

David


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

sumo69 said:


> Well to add oil into the fire, Eddie (arcam) is removing his as he apparently prefers a former set-up.
> 
> Dont know anymore that that so hopefully he will post up further details.
> 
> ...


I hope he explains the switch.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Henry 145 said:


> I have the 'normal' Alcon 400mm with Pagid RS29 's and they are spot on - great braking, fade resistance - more than good enough for me


Guys, seriously, this is what I have been saying for the last 4 bloody years!!! 

If you want the best, bite the bullet and do it - they are amazing. 

Again I went through 3 set and 3 manufacturers brake kits before settling on the ones I have on my R33 and if I add the price of all those kits it was the same as the Alcon BBK, so don't F*** about if you want the best DO IT !!!!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

The 400mm kit has been panned in the states for not having the mass to be considered track worthy.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

and what do the Yanks know about BRITISH brakes ???


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

How to crack them through track use.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

well the BTCC crew don't, maybe the yanks are fitting them to thier yank Tanks !


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