# Should I choose option A? or option B?



## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

Hey guys... recently put my car in storage for the winter, and doing some research into what I wanna do over the winter months in terms of upgrades...

*Currently...*
R32 GTR engine and car. engine just been comp. tested 155 PSI across, zero deviation, its maybe 5,000 km into its fresh rebuild. the rebuild did the following:

new R34 crank with ACL bearings for main, rods, and thrust.
N1 oil and water pumps with all new associated belts, idlers, tensioner etc.
rod and pistons were checked, cleaned, rings checked, bore-re-hatched with hone, rings re-sealed into stock bore and pistons.

basically its a stock engine that's had a refresh and fixed the usual culprits.
while rebuilding the motor last year to keep costs low, we didn't seperate the head from the block, therefore not needing to change head gasket. but we did change basically every other gasket and seal of course.

turbo set up is: GT2860R-5's, exhaust and intake is fully upgraded fronts to back everywhere. so, supporting mods are done, the goal is to hit 400-450 BHP with this set up.

Now... I will be ordering injectors, fuel pump and a boost controller.

so heres the question.

*Option A*
Leave engine in car, only add injectors, fuel pump and boost controller. in spring, get car on dyno, and hopefully hit 400~ish BHP with a max setting of 18 PSI boost.

do you think stock head gasket can handle that much? i know the answer here is "IT all comes down to the safety of the tuner"... but i want your opinions from what you've seen and heard.


*Option B*
there other option, is to pull the motor (which im totally comfortable doing, no problem at all).. drop in a full Tomei gasket kit, the oil restrictor and a set of ARP head studs along with the injectors fuel pump and boost controller.

*basically what i'm asking is....*
For my power goals and current set up, would you guys spend the extra time and money to do the gaskets and studs?


thanks for your input!


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## Bigman (Apr 8, 2010)

i think your best bet is option C


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## akasakaR33 (Oct 10, 2005)

if you really have the time, option B. better to be safe than sorry. I think most rebuilt/tuned engines here in Japan, always replace the head gasket


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

Lol wut... what is option C then*? bigman....

akasaka - what would be the result of a blown head gasket you figure? many many many high power building in Aus and the UK all seem to say it comes down to the tuning, but stock head gasket is fine even for 1.4 bar of boost. (including Rob from RIPS has said that before) ...If i need to find the post in which he does I can dig it up....


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Personal, For what you are looking for out of the engine, I think you should stick with Option A. 
Just make sure your tuner is good.

....Spend the money on suspension or something else


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

Option A, option B is unnecessary for your power goals.
Only mega boost or bad tuning will require metal head gasket IMHO.


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

what about the fact that these are the oem studs and headgasket tho, some have brought up the point that old headstuds could be fatigued ane let go at boost levels higher than 1 even 1.2.......thoughts on that?

they've never ben reused or anything tho


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Again for your power levels....I wouldn't bother.


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## dan-hipgrave (Nov 22, 2008)

As above - option A. Im running the same configuration myself @ 1.1bar and no problems at all (yet!).


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Option A thats all you would need to do with a good tuner


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## freakazoid3 (Jan 19, 2008)

Option A will do more then OK, I'm running upto 1.5 bar with remanufactured steel tubbies through an R32 GTR engine that has over 130k km and hasn't had the head off!

Not by me anyways 
Recently I dropped the sump to install some sumpbaffles as I track her very regularly and even the main bearings looked like new!
These engines can take a lot off stick if you treat them right 

I often do 1000km on a day meaning; 200km drive to Spa Francorchamps, 600km or more on track giving her stick all the way and then back home another 200km and she's never mised a beat


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

Am i missing something ?



> Currently...
> R32 GTR engine and car. engine just been comp. tested 155 PSI across, zero deviation, its maybe 5,000 km into its fresh rebuild. the rebuild did the following:
> 
> new R34 crank with ACL bearings for main, rods, and thrust.
> ...


the rods and pistons don't come out without the head off ?


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

Andy W said:


> Am i missing something ?
> the rods and pistons don't come out without the head off ?


lol yea you are, but you're not the only one who asked me this question, and the answer isn't as obvious as I originally thought, so I will explain:

I pulled the motor myself in my garage, engine and tranny in one piece, separated the tranny. Then strapped the motor to a pick up truck and dropped it off at the mechanics shop. The put the motor on a stand, and pulled off the oil pan, oil pump. then flipped it on its side. unbolted the cradle, bearings and separated the rod caps from the crank. from there you can slide rod and piston out one at a time!... putting them back in, just use the ring compressor and slide the pistons up and in.

It seems like everyone across 3 different forums is telling me the same thing.. Option A... So Unless I suddenly see a really good justification for B, then I will go with A! thanks very much eveyrone for the input and keep the suggestions coming!


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

archaeic_bloke said:


> lol yea you are, but you're not the only one who asked me this question, and the answer isn't as obvious as I originally thought, so I will explain:
> 
> I pulled the motor myself in my garage, engine and tranny in one piece, separated the tranny. Then strapped the motor to a pick up truck and dropped it off at the mechanics shop. The put the motor on a stand, and pulled off the oil pan, oil pump. then flipped it on its side. unbolted the cradle, bearings and separated the rod caps from the crank. from there you can slide rod and piston out one at a time!... putting them back in, just use the ring compressor and slide the pistons up and in.
> 
> It seems like everyone across 3 different forums is telling me the same thing.. Option A... So Unless I suddenly see a really good justification for B, then I will go with A! thanks very much eveyrone for the input and keep the suggestions coming!



???
must have been paul daneils!!!!! lol


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

:chuckle:

just what i was thinking


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

lol, not sure whoe this paul daniels is? I'm located in canada!
Yea i think I'm super confused. It's not possible to put pistons up through the bottom using a ring compressor as you need a machined flat surface - Just learned this.

heres what i know for a fact:
- the pistons were taken out of the block, rings cleaned, checked and re-seated.
- the bores were re-hatched and honed using that three pronged honing device.
- the head was never separated from the block.

Gonna stop by later this week and speak with the builder myself and ask him how exactly he did it.

I'm not too worried in any case, (Autoworx) this shop is the best in Canada, and one of the best in north america. In all the engines they've built, they've never had a failure. They guarantee all their work 100% too. Never ever EVER heard of anyone having any complaints about the quality of work these guys do either.

So, anybody have any idea how they might've done this?


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## RKTuning (Nov 7, 2005)

archaeic_bloke said:


> lol, not sure whoe this paul daniels is? I'm located in canada!
> Yea i think I'm super confused. It's not possible to put pistons up through the bottom using a ring compressor as you need a machined flat surface - Just learned this.
> 
> heres what i know for a fact:
> ...



Hi
i,m sure they are very good at ther work 
but it is impossible to remove pistons from the bottom, let alone put them back??


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

I did a quick search and it seems its generally agreed upon that its not possible to put pistons back in through the bottom.

definitley going to be stopping by the shop to chat with my mechanic and ask for an explanation as to how they did it.

maybe i've misunderstood something along the way?
*heres the facts...* what do you figure im missing here? what possibly was done?

- im 100% certain they didnt remove the head. because all the turbo and intake stuff was with out a doubt, never taken off. It was clear I was dealing with old seized nuts and bolts when i went about swapping the turbos a few weeks after they finished their job.

- im also 100% certain the oil pump, crank, bearings and cradle were all taken out and cleaned. crank was replaced with brand new R34 crank, ACL calico coated bearings were used, and N1 oil pump.

you figure then the only possibility is they left the pistons in the bore? and just re-attached them after? wouldnt that be a really bad idea?

He assured me that they did remove and check all the pistons, rods and ringlands... saying how they inspected them all, cleaned them all etc... followed by a re-hone in the cylinders prior to putting the pistons back in.

it wouldnt be a surprise to me if they've manufactured their own tool for accomplsihing this sort of trick... i know they've fabbed up a hand full of tools for making working on skylines easier.

can anyone think of a way they might have done this? or you figure they must have lied to me?


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

you dont need to remove the turbos/inlet etc to remove the head. 


The head will lift off with all attached. 

So lets guess they removed the head (end of the day if they didn't they never removed your pistons! ) 
I would be pretty pissed if they didnt renew the head gasket or they didnt give me a choice to replace the head gasket.


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## Andy W (Dec 31, 2005)

as Ron says they don't come out the bottom, he's built plenty and so have i

did you get your old parts back ? or see them ?


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

the head couldn't have been removed with out disconnecting the following items first:

- turbo water feed lines
- turbo oil feed lines
- turbo oil and water return lines.

at least! those 4 lines were definitley not removed, im certain the head was not removed. 100% sure they didnt lift off the head.

as for seeing my old parts, Yah! for sure, I had in my possession my old crank, bearings, oil pump, which I sold to some body a while after.

just spoke with a buddy of mine who's rebuilt his RB20 before and he swears up and down with out a doubt you can remove pistons through the bottom. he also says as long as you check ring clearance prior to installing, you don't need to use a ring compressor

could you guys explain to me why you say the pistons cannot be removed from the bottom? once the crank and cradle is out, whats to stop the pistons coming out the bottom? 

and as long as the ring clearance is ok, why can't you put them in without a ring compressor? or use some device to do it through bottom? obviousluy those oil squirters come off with one bolt... 








pic credit to geoffrey not me


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## Max Boost (Apr 9, 2010)

Somebody is talking shit, either the OP or the engine builder. Funniest thing I've read in ages. :chuckle:


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

Ive done a few engines myself and as far as I know they don't/cant come out or go in thru the bottom.


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

Max Boost said:


> Somebody is talking shit, either the OP or the engine builder. Funniest thing I've read in ages. :chuckle:


ahhh ahah yeaa you caught me! this was all just a big joke!...not.. why would I ever be talkin' sh1t about my own motor? i'm just trying to get to the bottom of this.

you see, I've been told one thing by the ppl who built my engine... and that story, according to everyone on here. doesnt jive apparently.

I agree something here doesnt add up correctly. I posted a pic of the upside down bare RB26 block, but still don't understand why everyone says pistons won't come out the bottom... i Believe you all, but what specifically is stopping them from coming out? .. looks pretty open to me!


that being said, unless they have some special way to do that trick... theres really theres only 2 possibilities here.

1) they DID pull the head off (against my wishes) with out telling me. even though I'm certain they didnt... ALL the copper crush washers on those turbo oil and water feed/return lines were old... not new! and they didnt have secondary seal marks, meaning they hadn't been taken off and put back on before.

OR

2) they never actually checked pistons and rods and just left everything inside the block while they swapped crank and oil pump and bearings.

I'm leaning more towards scenario 2, they build so many engines that its probably easy to confuse what they did on which motor sometimes, they're only human, it does happen... on my bill of sale (just checked) theres no mention of anythign specific just "engine overhaul" and time figure of hours it took them.

in reality, how bad is it if they never actually checked pistons? just did a compression test a few days ago before winter storage and saw all cylinders at 154 PSI, zero deviation. 3 cranks on each cylinder. usually we go to 5 cranks each cylinder and end up seeing more like 165 PSI, but didnt want to kill the battery and anything over 150 is fine anyways.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Trust me on this: 

1) it is impossible to get RB25,26,30 pistons out the bottom unless you melt them or smash them out and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get RB20 pistons out the bottom either.

2) you can not get the pistons out undamaged without taking the head off.

3) you can not replace the rings without taking the pistons out.

4) you can not hone the bores without taking the pistons out.

5) you can do ring gaps/clearance but you still need a ring compressor of some type to enable the pistons with rings on to be fitted to the bore.

6) either your bores have NOT been honed and your rings have NOT been replaced.....OR your head has been off to do it, simple as that.

BTW, the pic you showed above is not a RB26.

Rob


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## rot62 (Apr 15, 2010)

I got a piston out once without taking the head off. Didn't even have to unbolt the rod


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

LOL @ above pic.

Rob... thank you so much for clearing that up as well. I had come to the same conclusions of course (in more time lol), 

I'd also received a number PM's explaining to me the issue in details, and thanks to those of you who sent those! 

gonna go have a talk with the shop, I must've mis understood or they mixed up something.

although i gotta say, the original plan was always to leave the pistons in place... i never asked them to take them out.

but still they may have removed the head too! hrmm

ok ill keep u all updated! thanks very much!!


and yea thats not an rb26 block i posted, its something else lol. sorry it was sent to me as a demonstration of the casting under neath


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## Samwest (Feb 23, 2009)

i was exactly in your seat m8, but did option b and i regret i now hehe.


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

Samwest said:


> i was exactly in your seat m8, but did option b and i regret i now hehe.


why do you regret it now!? did ur motor pop? or just the opposite? it was totoally unnecessary?


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## Samwest (Feb 23, 2009)

archaeic_bloke said:


> why do you regret it now!? did ur motor pop? or just the opposite? it was totoally unnecessary?


Yeah i think it was totally unnecessary, but still, a good thing to do, if you want to run really safe....so if you dont think its a hard job to take the engine out and do it, then you should.

I had never taken an engine out from a car, so this was my first time, therefore i thought it was a bit hard.

But now the car wont run nice and i dont know why, so i will take it to the shop and check the map.


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

*RESULTS!!*

spoke with the engine builder today.... it was a huge mix-up. Haig, the shop manager found out what happened. so heres the story.

i brought them the engine on a pick up truck, they took the engine into the shop, removed the oil pan, old crank, old bearings, old oil pump etc.... cleaned the inside of the girdle, and pan etc.. installed my R34 crank, ACL bearings and N1 oil pump, put the pan back on and buttoned it all up. THATS IT.

thats all they did... he agrees its impossible to take pistons out the bottom, He confirmed that "No, they never removed the head"... ONLY the stuff i asked them to do. which is great. exactly what i wanted originally.

So, now you ask, "Why did I believe they had refreshed the pistons and rings?"... well its because when i went to pick up some stuff about 2 weeks after, i was speaking with another mechanic who often works on my car when its there... HE was confused cause he'd just worked on another engine, that was similar to mine. so thats where the confusion came from, He explained what he was doing to the motor of another customer, and I thought he was talking about my motor.. no body ever cleared it up between the 2 of us so we went on thinking we were talking about the same motor, when really, we werent! lol...

so... then i asked my mechanic the million dollar question: "Since it wasn't done before... should I pull the head, and replace the head gasket and head studs... will it make any difference?".. 

his response was in line with what all of you said:
"don't pull the head, leave the head gasket alone! the weak point of my engine is the pistons and rings, NOT the head gasket. So fit the boost controller, and hit the dyno, and get a safe tune and your good to go"

Then if ever it lets go for what ever reason, you move to forged pistons, and new head gasket etc...

what do u guys think? make sense now?... you still agree with option A then? like the mechanic says?


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## plumwerks (Dec 15, 2006)

Option A bro.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Player A


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

Wicked!... thank you everyone who contributed! I really appreciate the efforts to set me straight! now I know what im dealing with and we can have some fun! lol

that being said, im looking at some Injector Dynamics 725 cc fuel injectors.... does anyone know if they can drop right into a stock rail and be used with oem ecu? (after a re-map on the dyno of course tho) but will the oem ecu be able to accomodate once mapped? or are there any known compatibility issues?


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

archaeic_bloke said:


> *RESULTS!!*
> 
> spoke with the engine builder today.... it was a huge mix-up. Haig, the shop manager found out what happened. so heres the story.
> 
> ...





You should of asked him to slip the rods in whilst you were there!:chuckle::chuckle:


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

why you fitting 725cc injectors? 

You have stock pistons and rods so you cant run any where near enough power to use the injector size. 

what sort of turbos are you fitting to need more fuel than the stock injectors can fuel? But keeping boost low as you will kill ringlands or throw a rod. 


No idea on the stock ecu. I dont think you can change injector size without a different ecu but i could be wrong.


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## archaeic_bloke (Apr 22, 2008)

mentioned in the OP. turbos are 2860R-5's.... the 725cc injectors from injector dynamics are the smallest they make, but I've seen ID injectors in action and they work very well, idles like stock, and handles all the power. I'm just not sure if they can be input into an oem ecu ( being chipped and dyno tuned in the process etc). cause the guy who runs them is using an AEM EMS. 

the other option is some sard/denso/nismo//w/e brand 700 or 800 cc's... I want bigger for future upgrade compatability. 

My goal is 400~450 BHP, running maybe 1.2 bar. People here are saying i could run as much as 1.4 Bar with out issue either. but i think 1.2 will get me where i want to be.

I really like your car mattysupra, props on a super clean motor!


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

Stock ecu can be retuned via emulator+rom or a daughterboard like Nistune.
Just depends what is supported locally.

ID are a good choice, just make sure you get ones to suit an RB


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## roadie (Feb 6, 2006)

RC injectors are the bees' knee....


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