# Stage 2 --> Stage 4 (or 4.25)



## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

So I'm currently Litchfield stage 2.

Am I right in thinking that to get to stage 4 I just need 1100 injectors + Induction kit?? And whats the cost involved? Dont mind going 2nd hand route.

1100injectors? £600???
Induction? £300?? 
Remote Remap £250?? 
Fitting cost??


and 4.25 is just + downpipes?

Downpipes £300? 
+ fitting?? 

Dean.


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi, I***8217;m in same position as you and I***8217;m going to stage 4 in 2/3 weeks time. I***8217;ve got russ fellow y pipe and kn drop in air filters at moment. All I***8217;m doing is getting ansu 1050 fuel injectors fitted and a remap, been told induction kit isn***8217;t really needed as already got kn drop in air filters. And your right 4.25 is the downpipes being replaced taking out the cats in original ones and most people just get straight through downpipes, ( when I was looking was advised to make sure if I went down decatted downpipes route to make sure they had cast ends on them) , but a lot extra work and it***8217;s a lottery if the studs break when doing downpipes so I***8217;m leaving my originals on. Plus side will still pass mot , the down side it won***8217;t sound as loud as decatted downpipes


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## jasoburch (Jul 16, 2015)

*2 to 4*

I was at Litchfield yesterday having PS4S's and the handling kit fitted. I'm currently at Stage 1, but Ian said to upgrade to Stage 4 (keeping my standard exhaust) was £1800 all in. Stage 2 to 4 should be the same price.


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

So....

I can use 1000cc+ injectors (I wont ever go beyond 4.25)
Herman....Dont you also need the larger bore air intakes with the standard air boxes+KN???
My Exhaust is only 76mm as well with Miltek Y Pipe.... looking at most of the tuning pages they offer 102mm exhaust with stage 4 and above?? 

Also anyone had any luck with the Japspeed Sports cat downpipes?? I assume i'd lose probably about 10bhp over a decat but not too bothered about that as I don't have a Catted Y Pipe to change out for MOT's and cba with the chew tbh!

Thanks for replies so far.


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## marcusevo6 (Nov 12, 2013)

i had mine in a few weeks ago for fitting the dp's (i supplied) remap (stage 4.25) and a service think it was around £1400 off the top of my head!


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

herman said:


> Hi, I’m in same position as you and I’m going to stage 4 in 2/3 weeks time. I’ve got russ fellow y pipe and kn drop in air filters at moment. All I’m doing is getting ansu 1050 fuel injectors fitted and a remap, been told induction kit isn’t really needed as already got kn drop in air filters. And your right 4.25 is the downpipes being replaced taking out the cats in original ones and most people just get straight through downpipes, ( when I was looking was advised to make sure if I went down decatted downpipes route to make sure they had cast ends on them) , but a lot extra work and it’s a lottery if the studs break when doing downpipes so I’m leaving my originals on. Plus side will still pass mot , the down side it won’t sound as loud as decatted downpipes


Can anyone confirm or deny this???

I suspect you need full intakes to get the quoted power figure but if its not needed to reach the 640bhp mark then its a no brainer!


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Serious question - do you really notice the difference between stage 2 and stage 4? It***8217;s only 40 bhp or so


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## smoggy12345 (Aug 4, 2013)

Well.....I know what your saying but I'm getting kinda bored of the GTR now....had it nearly 4 yrs...I was gonna sell but cant get the APR i wanted on a loan so trying to make things a bit more interesting again.


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## marcusevo6 (Nov 12, 2013)

mine made just under 660 with the stage 4.25 so i guess that would be noticeable going to 4.25 over 4


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## Chris Wiltshire (Jun 25, 2017)

I noticed a big difference going from stage 2 to 4.25. Much stronger top end. Felt more like a rollercoaster ride haha


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi, I***8217;m just repeating what my runner told me. He said one his customers stopped his after market intakes off and put standards boxes bk in with kn air filters, think it was something to do with what country he was travelling to and going to be there a while, and he reported that that he didn***8217;t notice any difference in performance after dropping them?? So I thought if I don***8217;t need to spend out the cash then why bother?? If for some reason it turns out to be in true it***8217;s not hard to put intakes on afterwards a***x1f44d;
Maybe somebody else can confirm or deny it it is true or not?? Be good to know..


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

Sorry for all spelling mistakes poxy predictive texting!!!


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

Ow meant to say I***8217;ve got standard exhaust on also


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## TalibGTR (Jul 3, 2017)

Massive, massive difference between stage 1/2 and stage 4.25. 

Ive had 3 GTRs - Stage 1, Stage 4.25 and a Stage 2, which I paid to get the Stage 4.25 Conversion 2 weeks ago from Litchfields. The difference is night and day, even though on paper it might not seem much. The GTR feels like a brand new car.

To the OP, the only difference between Stage 4 and Stage 4.25 is the addition of decat downpipes (in the 4.25 package). This technically makes your car not road legal (as there are no catalytic converters at all) and your GTR will smell like fuel, however the GTR sounds phenomena with the decat downpipes. There***8217;s a massive sound difference and a huge increase in turbo noise with the decat downpipes. Also, you can easily put the original y-pipe back in and it***8217;ll pass an MOT and become road legal again. 

Also note, that Litchfields will only fit their items, so you***8217;ll have to pay what they quote, unless you buy what they approve/use in their Stage 4.25 package (e.g. Litchfield air intakes, Milltek downpipes, ANSU 1050cc injectors, etc).


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## Kieranrob (Apr 3, 2012)

I went from stage 4 to stage 4.25 and the noise difference very noticeable! As said above it sounds amazing when flat out and the increase in turbo noise is great too


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Thread resurrection. Now that I've had standard, stage 2, 4.25. 4.33  (Superstock intercooler) and limit of road grip at 1000bhp and 850 torque gonna add my two penny's worth.

I think looking back Stage 2 is now my sweet spot.

1) No upgrades makes the GTR fairly stale due to its weight
2) 4.25 is good if you like the better sound, Yes there is a difference in speed but not as much as say the stage 2 from stock where there is a real marked difference
3) At stage 4.33 its the best for maximum pleasure without as much concentration. E.g. put your foot down and go and don't worry 'too much' still very quick
4) At the 1000bhp/800+ torque it (for me) is frightening not in an unsafe way (well could be if you don't focus) but in the acceleration/concentration, it 'never' stops till your way off road limits and you have to concentrate straight ahead. It's really really like a rollercoaster and very similar or better than a Tesla at the start but then doesn't end.

So if I was going to use for Road only I would go maybe stage 2 (with exhaust, filter and ECU to up the sound a bit but not scare the neighbours and reduce drone) and if track is done through year then the 1000bhp.

Just my two penny's


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

The money you get back for the std cats will pay for most of the work.


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

I went from a 4.5 740 hp to a 1000/780 and the difference is night and day. I for one dont seem to be able to get used to that power,infact its mainly run at 1.6 bar which is lovely on the road. I love the car though gives me a real buzz and hopefully try for some events this year.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Yep agreed, I also have e85 flexfuel and 850 torque and yes its the hang on for your life... I will try it dialled down to 1.8 and 1.6 (currently on 2 bar max).


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

Yes mines at 2 bar,was thinking of e85,but for once im really happy at where its at. Next step i want is the big alcon brake set up. 
Its really hard to imagine 1500 - 2000hp


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I’ve got some 1100cc asnu’s I might sell and an induction kit by Litchfields


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

PaulcbaGtr said:


> Yes mines at 2 bar,was thinking of e85,but for once im really happy at where its at. Next step i want is the big alcon brake set up.
> Its really hard to imagine 1500 - 2000hp


With e85 everything just starts sooner, more chaos sooner on. Also seems smoother to me no fuel smell but really it’s more for track methinks.


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## AVBR35 (Jun 27, 2020)

PaulcbaGtr said:


> I went from a 4.5 740 hp to a 1000/780 and the difference is night and day. I for one dont seem to be able to get used to that power,infact its mainly run at 1.6 bar which is lovely on the road. I love the car though gives me a real buzz and hopefully try for some events this year.


At 1.6 bar how does it compare to your old 4.5?


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Well I cant compare because at 4.33 (i didnt have the hybrid turbo's done). Just everything before you start changing turbo's etc.


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## AVBR35 (Jun 27, 2020)

Reano said:


> Well I cant compare because at 4.33 (i didnt have the hybrid turbo's done). Just everything before you start changing turbo's etc.


I am at 4.25 with an Alpha upgraded intercooler right now and for the life of me, I can't decide on whether to go down the 1000hp route or use that money to jump ships and go down the 720s route. Must change my mind every other day.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

I was thinking about a standard Porsche turbo s or go for an ultra build GTR (ceramic brakes, gearbox, engine build, suspension that can raise from ground as well, etc, etc). I went with the GTR and here is why?

I hired a Porsche Turbo S 911 991.2. The latest equivalent is c£170k+ Which I just cannot justify/afford! At least the other one (at £125k was close to but still more than a fully built gtr).

I did not find it as good as the gtr, i felt the gtr (MY17+) interior was better, more comfortable and performance better. I thought the porsches handling and balance ‘was’ better but the upgrades I have completely blows it out the water.

Next, I do a lot of work for the likes of the energy sector and due to government announcements hybrid and electric is the way to go. Will also mean less reliance on ’specialist’ tuners as a lot will be software, AI and electronics driven (my domain).

so decided to have one last hurrah at an ultimate (within reason) petrol car that can be used for track, strip and day (if I want) and is relatively practical. For me only the Porsche offered all these but the cost point (even without modifying) is too high (for me any way).

Having done the 1000+ bhp and 850+ torque (it’ also has e85) and with some tweaks (no turbo change, or gears, etc as all done) is built to go to maybe 1400bhp. I don’t regret it. I’m literally still every weekend going out and tweaking slightly to get the grip and traction even better. Spec’d to the limits of traction on MP4S for daily and the track tyres for track.

long response but hope it helps you before you pull the trigger. Porsche, mclaren and Ferrari definitely more brand worthy cars but for all round petrol car I don’t believe you can beat the GTR and I’ve driven a few exotics (hire them for a day or 2, yes will cost you many hundreds per hire but could save you tens of thousands).


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Let’s see some pics of the beast?


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Skint said:


> Let’s see some pics of the beast?


OK gonna create a project folder today but need to do some more dyno's the one at MRL didnt like

Here is where the pictures will start to go up MY17 Project SwanSong to Petrol


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

AVBR35 said:


> At 1.6 bar how does it compare to your old 4.5?


Still quicker mate.
My 4.5 run at 1.4 bar. The car is actually on Calvins car diary on Youtube where its put against an 800hp M5 and a 4.25 Gtr


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## AVBR35 (Jun 27, 2020)

Reano 
Thanks very much for taking the time to write this, I appreciate it and it's very much what I am thinking. That's a good call regarding the hiring, I think I might do that to get a better feel for any alternatives.

PaulcbaGtr
Ah wicked thanks mate, I will check it out... I like Calvin he's seems like a nice guy.


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

Yeah i traded my grey Gtr against the 1000hp white one he had for sale. For the money i was intending to spend on a forged bottom end and gearbox work to get over 800hp,it was cheaper to part exchange in


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

I'm torn a little between Stage 2 I'm currently on and going to Stage 4.25. 

What is actually the quarter mile you should be getting on 4.25? I'm sure I have heard of sub 11 second times but I watched a YouTube yesterday of Calvin's Car diary where he was at Santa Pod with his RS6 and another GTR 4.25 only managed 11.5 which to me seems slower than stock almost?


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

Exotic said:


> I'm torn a little between Stage 2 I'm currently on and going to Stage 4.25.
> 
> What is actually the quarter mile you should be getting on 4.25? I'm sure I have heard of sub 11 second times but I watched a YouTube yesterday of Calvin's Car diary where he was at Santa Pod with his RS6 and another GTR 4.25 only managed 11.5 which to me seems slower than stock almost?


You cant really go on one car as an example,maybe he had a bad launch,all differenty varients to consider,but as an average a 4.25 car will be around 10.8. A 4.25 car is way quicker than stock mate


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

PaulcbaGtr said:


> You cant really go on one car as an example,maybe he had a bad launch,all differenty varients to consider,but as an average a 4.25 car will be around 10.8. A 4.25 car is way quicker than stock mate


Agree but in the video Calvin said his previous GTR 4.25 only ran 11.5 as well so that's pretty poor I thought. I can only imagine these 2 GTRs didn't launch that well. I know there is no improvement to 0-60 times with 4.25 than stock due to already aggressive gearing but you expect a lot better performance from 4th gear onwards.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

It is strange some of the times quoted. A stage 4.25 is about 1 second quicker to 100 than a stock car so you would think that if a stock car does the quarter mile in, say, 11.5 to 11.8 seconds then you would expect the 4.25 to be lower than 10.5 to 10.8. But some seem to be particularly slow. Looking back through the times posted by stage 4's and 4.25's from 5+ years ago you would think the latest "improved" tunes are slower.....


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Looking back I would stick at stage 2 because for me the extra noise, drone and performance were negatives compared to standard --> stage 2. The next huge jump is very very expensive and that's beyond the stage 5 level :-( when you are now at the limit of grip of your tyres so you know 'thats it' to me the big big numbers (way beyond 1000 bhp) are only for the strip with fat tyres, stripped car, etc as I cant see on track or road what much difference it would make.


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Reano said:


> Looking back I would stick at stage 2 because for me the extra noise, drone and performance were negatives compared to standard --> stage 2. The next huge jump is very very expensive and that's beyond the stage 5 level :-( when you are now at the limit of grip of your tyres so you know 'thats it' to me the big big numbers (way beyond 1000 bhp) are only for the strip with fat tyres, stripped car, etc as I cant see on track or road what much difference it would make.


I would like a bit more power so maybe Stage 4 would be better?

My current Stage 2 dyno'd at Litchfield made 620HP and 555 ft/lb of torque, would be happy with around 670HP and 600 ft/lb with next tune. 

Positives of Stage 4 would be to keep primary CAT so less drone, no black soot/fuel smell and car is MOT legal.

Was the drone that bad for 4.25? I don't really do much motorway miles but obviously don't want it if I can help. I've got a draggy but haven't had a chance to use it yet so may record some times sometime so I can compare.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Try some performance sports cats.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

I’m watching the Litchfield development of their latest cats for high power cars as I do think there will be more clamping down on decat cars



Exotic said:


> I would like a bit more power so maybe Stage 4 would be better?
> 
> My current Stage 2 dyno'd at Litchfield made 620HP and 555 ft/lb of torque, would be happy with around 670HP and 600 ft/lb with next tune.
> 
> ...


sounds reasonable the added torque will help also. I’m going to go with Racecal Romain (Syvecs, Toucan screen) to control traction, launch, etc.

Horses for courses, some love the sound with the down pipes. I do when it’s on song but not the neighbours unfriendliness. No neighbours have complaint to be fair.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

I'd be surprised if you got 670hp with only stage 4. From what I've seen you'd need 4.25 and possibly a better intercooler to get that horsepower.

Litchfield used to sell sports cats but not sure if that's still the case. Didn't have any about 9 months ago when I enquired. Will be interesting to see what they are now developing re.cats.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

SKNAM said:


> I'd be surprised if you got 670hp with only stage 4. From what I've seen you'd need 4.25 and possibly a better intercooler to get that horsepower.
> 
> Litchfield used to sell sports cats but not sure if that's still the case. Didn't have any about 9 months ago when I enquired. Will be interesting to see what they are now developing re.cats.


Yup here is the thread but no news so far. 



__ https://www.facebook.com/LitchfieldMotors/posts/4216207278409204


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Thanks Reano. Can see these selling well if viable on tuned cars and can stay fitted rather than just MOT time. Roadside sniff tests being used in some places now quite regularly.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

SKNAM said:


> Thanks Reano. Can see these selling well if viable on tuned cars and can stay fitted rather than just MOT time. Roadside sniff tests being used in some places now quite regularly.


yep think they are going to up the ante as Electric becomes more common and all those people in their GTR’s and petrol cars begin to stand out more.


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## AVBR35 (Jun 27, 2020)

Exotic said:


> I'm torn a little between Stage 2 I'm currently on and going to Stage 4.25.
> 
> What is actually the quarter mile you should be getting on 4.25? I'm sure I have heard of sub 11 second times but I watched a YouTube yesterday of Calvin's Car diary where he was at Santa Pod with his RS6 and another GTR 4.25 only managed 11.5 which to me seems slower than stock almost?


These are the quickest times I have managed with my 4.25 (running MPS4)
0-60
1/4
0-100

Best 100-200kph is around 6.6 seconds.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Fantastic data!!


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## JMacca1975 (Feb 2, 2016)

I think it depends on the age of the Gtr that you’re starting the mods from? Mine has a y pipe, injectors, sd sensor and remap...660bhp and 625lbs torque...no downpipes or intercooler or anything else? Still see some soot when I boot it though🙈


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Very good figures for a stage 4. Better than what I thought the norm is (640ish). Will look into SD tuning as it's supposed to be more accurate than MAF and I'm assuming better for power


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Stage 4


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Capristo had some nice sports cats but they were expensive


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Skint said:


> Capristo had some nice sports cats but they were expensive


Any idea on cost?


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## UKPAISLEY (Jan 17, 2003)

I want from standard to Stage 4 , 550 bhp to 655bhp , you need the injectors to go over the 600 point. Yo also run out of MAF scale at the top end, So this is why the intakes are changed and the rescaled. But if you go for a Speed Density tune then you can flow as much as the standard air box will go with drop in filters. I then decided fully built with Efrs LoL


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

So I'm going to be at Litchfield on Thursday for a Stage 2 > Stage 4 tune. I am a bit on the fence whether to go 4 or 4.25 still! 

Plus points Stage 4:
Road legal and MOT friendly
Less drone than 4.25
Less soot to clean from the back of the car and no petrol fumes to be noticed windows down
About a grand less saving than 4.25

Plus points Stage 4.25:
Louder exhaust note
Around 15-20 BHP more
Flames from the exhaust

What would you guys choose? I am not a fan of pops and bangs but I do like the flames. 

Would I need to be in the Map 1 (95 RON) to get the flames as I'm always in Map 3 (99 RON) for best performance?


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## UKPAISLEY (Jan 17, 2003)

I have just had a map , and when you say pops and bangs , it is just that , the long flamethrower type thing you see is a different thing. I haven't used my map 1 much , maybe 1 or 2 times but the bang that came from the exhaust was quite worrying , not like a chave , but more like a gun shot.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

First try to never go in map 1 thats like an emergency map but you have 3 choices of fuel that you can use for petrol

1) Shell vpower 99
2) Tesco Momentum 99
3) Texaco synergy supreme 99+

So you shouldn't be too far from any of those petrol stations.

If I did it all again I wouldn't do 4.25 unless I was going to go for more later. I would do stage 4 and then if you going to stage 5+ at that point get downpipes done. 4.25 maybe a good option with silenced exhaust to counter the drone. That's just my opinion due to neighbours and some of the points you made. Others like the 4.25 (I did at first but over time not so much).


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Dont forget stage 4 being road legal is more about being able to pass a roadside sniff test and/or MOT emissions. But technically you would also need the catted y pipes to comply with the full inspectorate regulations as removing any cat originally fitted is an automatic fail........but in the real world, the smell of 4.25 can be off putting, from outside the car. Neigbours might complain about the smell AS WELL AS the noise. Offset that with the fact the car sounds much better without the cats and a decent exhaust but choose wrong and you can end up with drone (or more drone than stage 4). Its been said many times before, but stage 4 seems to be the sweet spot.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

This is going to be a concern for a lot of us post stage 4 anyone running cats stage 4.25 up? If gov starts to step up inspections?


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I have seen posts on fb where vosa have put cars on mobile ramps and inspected them.

Reano, I can’t remember the price on the capristo stuff but from memory it’s pricy as they do too end motors.
If I come across it again I’ll pm you.👍


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

It may be the price we end up having to pay.

Well here are some very expensive cats NISSAN GTR Valved Exhaust Systems - Capristo Exhaust


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Thanks for all the comments - I think I'll stick to Stage 4.

I have 99 RON available very close to me so only ever use that and just assumed you get flames with a pops and bangs map. Didn't realise the fuel smell could be so strong, deffo not something I'd like

Looking forward to seeing how much it makes on the dyno, can't wait!


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Come back and say.


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## Imire1 (Dec 24, 2015)

I went from Stage 1 to 4 few weeks ago, and it's night and day to me, and with a Russ fellows cats back straight through exhaust its load anuff, and can't be doing with Mot time head ache, even tho I got a fail for no Y pipe, last time to, and that was with standard Exhaust fitted so had to put Y pipe back in, But don't think the Y pipe will now fit The Russ Fellows some how  so to me 4.25 even more head aches sod that.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

lol. I think if you stopping at stage 4/4.25 then looking back stage 4 is better. If you going beyond then just wait for next stage and have decat downpipe then. Either way in longer term I think we gonna need them 100 cell sports cats in the end.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

I was hoping those Capristo catted downpipes and valve exhaust would sound better than that. Yes, much louder with valves open, but like Armytrix exhausts they just sound waspy and not deep at all. Shame, much better sounding exhausts out there.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

The arakpovic sounds really good to me one of the best sounding but I went to quieter triple silenced.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Akrapovic are the best made exhausts I have seen but as you get older the triple silenced pipes start looking more appealing.😊


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Skint said:


> Akrapovic are the best made exhausts I have seen but as you get older the triple silenced pipes start looking more appealing.😊


What you saying Skint about older?  But you are correct lol.....


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

I'm assuming that I can keep the panel air filters and stock injectors which come off the car tomorrow?


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

All the original parts belong to you, they don't have much value in regards to air box and injectors but cats are always a good few quid.


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## JMacca1975 (Feb 2, 2016)

Exotic said:


> I'm assuming that I can keep the panel air filters and stock injectors which come off the car tomorrow?


Strangely enough…mine made 8bhp more with the standard Nissan dp filters than my K&N ones😳😂


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Yep you can keep them as Skint says but in reality they will be worth very very little better to just scrap them but if you wanted to go to dual fuel then the standard ones are good for drivability.


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Fly in the ointment. So at Litchfield now and they've said that my timing chains are making a racket and on further inspection needs changing before doing the Stage upgrade. I have noticed the rattling noise but always assumed it was a bell housing issue. They advise not to drive the car which is surprising as I didn't notice any problems driving here. I'm not discounting their advise, but they claim I could damage the engine if I drive the car away. Is this possible with the timing chains? They quoted around £2500 for the timing chain work but I just think it's strange the car made it here perfectly and I would obviously like to drive back!


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Inflation must be sky rocketing in 2 years. 4% a year? R35 timing chain replacement costs.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

It can be serious, if it is noisey then it is likely the timing chain tensioner has gone beyond its max setting and the chain itself starts "eating" into the timing chain cover which is what you can hear. If it fails, its serious. 70k miles/10 years is the point at which they used to say check all is well.


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Nothing seriously noisy I can report, like I say always assumed it was bell housing. I would never drive a car that sounded like it could fall apart. I have decided to drive the car away, I know there's a slight risk but they can't give a definite time period where I might get it back as they are booked up and it could be weeks. I think it does need changing given my mileage but I need the car and think the quote is a little high.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Definitely get some quotes for the work but I doubt it can be done massively cheaper. I understand it's an engine out job so that's best part of a day's labour alone BEFORE you start the work. And then same again after the work. Timing chains and gaskets seem to be several hundred and then new tensioners etc.....and labour to do change etc. 

Let us know how you get on. Lots of older/high mileage cars are probably getting into this zone for replacement now


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## adz87kc (Jan 8, 2018)

Exotic said:


> Fly in the ointment. So at Litchfield now and they've said that my timing chains are making a racket and on further inspection needs changing before doing the Stage upgrade. I have noticed the rattling noise but always assumed it was a bell housing issue. They advise not to drive the car which is surprising as I didn't notice any problems driving here. I'm not discounting their advise, but they claim I could damage the engine if I drive the car away. Is this possible with the timing chains? They quoted around £2500 for the timing chain work but I just think it's strange the car made it here perfectly and I would obviously like to drive back!


I've heard this line before from another customer of theirs.
Might be legit, might not.



Expensive if it goes wrong if you don't get the work done but, if it's engine out, why not forge it and get hybrid turbos whilst you're at it.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Yup what region of the country you from also?

Lol and so the forging and turbo's begin..... :-D


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Does anyone know how they confirm it's the timing chain. I'm assuming they don't open up the front cover etc so "hear it" and confirm via electronic/ECU timing data??


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I believe you can do the chains it situ, not ideal but possible.

secondly you could do this at home or local garage by removing the radpack so no ramp is required.

If your dropping the lump to do them then in a real world you need a ramp, Ive dropped a few lumps out on the quick jacks but it was’nt pleasant and fortunately for me I did’nt have to refit them as they were sold.

My advice would find a compatent local garage who can do the job and get a price for labour and supply the parts yourself.

You would be in imo better changing,chains,guides,tensioners and inspecting the vvt components while your in there.

Go online or your dealers and get a printout of the timing setup and you will be able to see what parts you need and price them accordingly.

Good Luck and keep us posted


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Thanks for the advice from you guys.

So I made it back okay (I live in London by the way Reano) 

I'm sure the chain does need doing but that sound has been there from when I bought the car last year and I've had a Stage 2 since then and it was never raised. or at any other garage like Kaizer. I guess they had a closer look this time round. 

It just wasn't a good time to do all the work now, they had already started doing the Stage 4 work so I would have to pay the following with no clear date when getting the car back. I think it was a better idea to keep options open and as you suggested get a couple of quotes and a second opinion. Once I leave the car I have lost those options:

£300 84m Service (completed and paid)
£1500 for Stage 2 > Stage 4 
£2500 Timing chain work

They also recommended engine conditioning at £5000. So you can see the costs mounting up. Can anyone recommend this, I know it's not the same as forging the engine? I guess it's more like a internal service of the engine parts? 

As a weekend car I wasn't planning on going all out on more power. I think Stage 4 is the perfect spot for me and despite temptation I am not looking for that much more power (famous last words I know!)


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

If it wanted the chains doing I would’nt have proceeded with any work.


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## adz87kc (Jan 8, 2018)

Exotic said:


> They also recommended engine conditioning at £5000. So you can see the costs mounting up. Can anyone recommend this, I know it's not the same as forging the engine? I guess it's more like a internal service of the engine parts?


What do you get for £5k?
If it's out and stripped you'd be daft not to add pistons and rods as a minimum.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I would’nt be putting rods and pistons in an engine for what maybe be a slight bit of cam chain noise.
Rectifying the issues at the smallest cost possible would be the way forward as I think the op was only going 4.25.

The matter of future intentions would be the only consideration, does he plan on keeping it Long term and how many miles does the speedo show ( it only shows the minimum).


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Could be cost effective to do both at the same time - the rods and the timing chains (plus ancillaries). Most of the timing chains cost is labour (engine out route) so presumably could get the refresh plus timing chains (water pump, tensioner) for under 6k at those prices? Just a thought. Spend an extra 5k to save 2k and so get engine refresh for 3k which seems a bargain.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

You can't just rock up with a set of rods and pistons and take for granted it's going to come in on budget.

You need to access what you have before any moves are made so you don't end up with a car with no donkey in because you don't have the budget for the build.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Agreed. Would be good to hear from owners who have had the basic rods and refresh done (Litchfield or otherwise) and what their experiences were (additional work needed) to get an idea of what it really costs in the real world on average.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

At a guess most cars will be different, you’ll find ones requiring oil pumps, maybe ones that need crankshaft polishing or changing, some that need things doing to the bolt on parts, turbo feeds are problematic now there getting old, turbo studs snap and need machining out, you might even have play or oil in the compressor side. When removing the bell housing you could find damper plate damage or play in the main housings, power steering pumps do have issues.

Just some things to think about, I’d say if you make a budget have another 50% in reserve.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Stick with stage 4 mate. Cause after that what matters is fuly forged route and thats a ALOT of money. So stick to stage 4 if you can help it  .


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

Sorry if this is covered somewhere else but couldn't find it on a search. Could anyone please direct me to a guide to what the 4 settings on stage 4 are for? I'm referring to the ones that are visible on the rev counter after 'long-pressing' the 'cancel' button. I'm aware of the separate setting for octane level that appears on the coolant temperature gauge. V power is 99 octane but it has added ingredients also that help. With V power should one select 99 or might it be better with 100 (sorry if that's a stupid question) and thank you!


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Hi I dont quite understand but I assume you mean for different types of maps. If you have ecutek for example your mapper would have setup various fuelling maps for you to use different fuel grades. Typically there will be Ron 95, 97, 99 and then either a pops and bangs or bioethanol map if you have that).


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## Slimshady201 (Mar 31, 2013)

Isn`t the flex-fuel route the best way these days just fill up with whatever you want and drive? No messing about with map changing.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

It can be if the cost is ok for you because.

1) you’ll need flex fuel kit (change of fuel lines, etc)
2) new injectors and potentially 12 injectors if your going big power
3) fuel pump upgrade
4) remap
5) in some countries like uk we don’t have e85 at the pump. We have up to e10 but with 95 Ron fuel so not a good compromise.
6) if you live in cold climate you may not want to go with too high an ethanol content to ensure car start up.
7) less fuel economy
8) more expensive if not available at the pump

but benefits are

1) car smells way better no fuel smell.
2) keeps engine cooler
3) more bhp
4) more torque
5) fuel flexibility can fill up with anything and car will just auto adjust.
6) should be better for environment
7) futureproof as governments move away from fossil fuels.
8) will add value/desirability to car as you can still use petrol
9) may attract tax eccentives in future if dual fuel.


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## Slimshady201 (Mar 31, 2013)

Reano said:


> It can be if the cost is ok for you because.
> 
> 1) you’ll need flex fuel kit (change of fuel lines, etc)
> 2) new injectors and potentially 12 injectors if your going big power
> ...


Yes, I agree everything depends on circumstances. If E85 is difficult to get then there is no point. I did convert to E85 and to be honest, it wasn`t that expensive and E85 can be found everywhere here in Sweden . I did it in steps fuel sensor, pumps, fuel basket, injectors, fuel pressure monitor and a remap (which I was going to do anyway) I`ve been running E85 for four years without a problem, though I only use the car during the summertime. E85 is about 30% cheaper than petrol and fuel usage increases about 30% so I end up paying the same amount in the long run. 
Yes, the points you make are all valid. Another was that I informed my insurance company and they thought it was quite okay with the E85 upgrade without any increase in policy cost.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

I have e85 for track fast road. Hoping uk catches up with rest of world. Then I’ll use it most of time 🙂


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## girodreaming (Feb 24, 2018)

No need to go to stage 5 from stage 4.5 when you have E85. The hybrid turbos are able to make up to 800whp with e85. 

Sent from my SM-N986B using Tapatalk


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

So just an update - I managed to get my Stage 4 last month from Litchfield and also get the timing chain work done.
The rattle noise I always thought was bell housing has completely gone!
It made 647 BHP and 586.2 ft-lb( 795 Nm) torque up from Stage 2 620 BHP and 555 ft-lb (752.4 Nm) torque.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Worth it do you think?


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

This is the most to do on road with low noise levels and to protect against road side inspection e.g. still maintaining a cat. You will get more torque and bhp from a 4.25 (decat) but you lose the other two advantages. Personally for just a road car that’s where I would stop but hey….


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I wish I could go back to 4.25/4.5 maybe trying sports cats like capristo.

Litchfields did a great job with the LM20, perfect for fast road. Not only was it designed well it has proven to hold its value well.

Additional security would be a rod job and built box.


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Simonh said:


> Worth it do you think?


For me it's what I always wanted from day 1 like being OEM+ and road legal, as Reano said. There's no fuel smell, drone or strange noises to worry about and it could just have come from the factory like this. Could have easily gone for 4.25 but the decat would have bothered me. Will keep an eye on any sport cat options in the future, but for a GTR with no forging I think this is good sweet spot. The power and torque are quite awesome for me who hasn't been in anything more powerful.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Cool, glad you are pleased with it, for me I am not convinced another 20-25bhp is worth it.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

For a car designed so long ago it's engineering has been amazing to stand so long as a front runner.


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

Simonh said:


> Cool, glad you are pleased with it, for me I am not convinced another 20-25bhp is worth it.


I'd say it's closer to 30+ BHP more and the dyno was done during the hotter days of last month (comparing to my Stage 2 dyno sheet it's about 7 degrees hotter) plus the 30ft/lb increase in torque.

I can understand if others might not think it's a massive increase as it isn't, but I'll take anything I can get on a non-forged engine. Stage 2 is a good sweet spot too

I would say if you have a completely stock GTR go for either Stage 2 or 4 from the off and forget about Stage 1 and 3.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Exotic said:


> I would say if you have a completely stock GTR go for either Stage 2 or 4 from the off and forget about Stage 1 and 3.


This I would certainly agree with!


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Exotic said:


> For me it's what I always wanted from day 1 like being OEM+ and road legal, as Reano said. There's no fuel smell, drone or strange noises to worry about and it could just have come from the factory like this. Could have easily gone for 4.25 but the decat would have bothered me. Will keep an eye on any sport cat options in the future, but for a GTR with no forging I think this is good sweet spot. The power and torque are quite awesome for me who hasn't been in anything more powerful.


Yep Ill say it again for the road there is no need to go beyond Stage 4!! (or maybe 4.33 with sports cat see other post). I've been to 1000bhp and beyond. The only time to go beyond is if you are going to do track and strip and want that extra capacity but then you must do engine and transmission upgrades (the costs are significant). For a stage 4 your looking at a few thousand pounds, for stages 5+ your looking at tens of thousands of pounds!! Btw the limit of road grip on standard road wheels and tyres (Michelins MP4S) is about 800 lb/ft in the torque range! after this (on launch) your spinning the tyres. This you need a built engine and box/transmission


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Skint said:


> For a car designed so long ago it's engineering has been amazing to stand so long as a front runner.


For me the R35 beats all other GTR's hands down. I know people going for R34's at ridiculous prices but we have a legend right here, right now on our hands!! The Engineering is amazing if this was a ferrari or similar at this power point (1000 bhp) it would be in the workshop every week.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Exotic said:


> I'd say it's closer to 30+ BHP more and the dyno was done during the hotter days of last month (comparing to my Stage 2 dyno sheet it's about 7 degrees hotter) plus the 30ft/lb increase in torque.
> 
> I can understand if others might not think it's a massive increase as it isn't, but I'll take anything I can get on a non-forged engine. Stage 2 is a good sweet spot too
> 
> I would say if you have a completely stock GTR go for either Stage 2 or 4 from the off and forget about Stage 1 and 3.


I know that you can definitely feel the difference from stage 2 - 4.25 ( I did this) as spooling is also quicker due to decat but looking back I would prefer stage 4 due to less noise, legal, etc.

So ideal on GTR for road is

Stage 4.25 but with sport cat!! That's where it should end or maybe even 4.33 (with larger intercooler)? That's probably the absolute best, then work on everything else (here is my ultimate list to make the car perfect). With a good wind you should get 680 - 690 bhp and 620 - 630 torque. Then add the following (this is an ultra list so don't do what you don't want but each adds something extra without upsetting the original reliability, etc for stock).

a) better brakes,
b) better anti roll bars
c) road handling kit
d) I would even now suggest the Syvecs AWD controller at c £650 and just tune it yourself!
e) I do like the figure hugging recaro sportster cs or similar seats
f) Mitchelin 305/265 on standard wheels
g) R35audio type upgrade of stereo system
h) Get Ecutek Bluetooth dongle and pay for phoneflash (for remote tuning)
i) fix the water ingress on the wing mirrors
j) I would go with better suspension (I do like the the KV3). If you remain standard or with compatible suspension for GTR control then add the Dsport suspension controller
k) I would highly recommend the HLS4 lift kit if you have a 102mm exhaust but this is a luxury cost
l) Blueeye detector
m) Front and rear dashcam
n) If you gonna launch the car a lot, then front diff

This above would make the perfect Full Bolt On (FBO)/stock car that is all round as good as it can get  .


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## JMacca1975 (Feb 2, 2016)

As I’ve said previously, mine is a TE My20…only needed Russ Fellows y pipe, bigger injectors, remap, sd sensor and makes 660/625…so stock down pipes etc…and hopefully still road legal when mot comes around next year😎


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Technically speaking all 4 cats are needed for compliance with MOT requirements. Yes, car can pass the emissions with just 2 (y pipe etc) but without all 4 can fail a roadside check (even if it passes the sniff test). That said, the downpipes are almost impossible to see unless car is jacked up/on a ramp or on a lift. I know someone who failed the roadside inspection for no catted y-pipe...


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## Imire1 (Dec 24, 2015)

Anyone taken the car for a mot with a pair of 200 cell down pipes fitted and No Y pipe, Pass or No pass ?
am tempted to get a set, then get it remaped with them on, also how many cells do normal have 400 ?


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

You knock the cats out of the pipe, anybody checking will assume there still fitted.


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

I checked with my friend why he failed the roadside test and apparently he passed the "sniffing" part but his exhaust was considered noisy (possibly why they pulled him he thinks - he has an Armytrix valve exhaust) and he says he then was pulled up on a visual inspection which the examiner recorded as missing original emissions equipment 8.2.1.1. I don't know anyone else who has had this issue and it was 18 months ago so perhaps just unlucky.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

And the punishment for such a gastly crime was?


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

Stern talking to by VOSA (apparently police present with VOSA can seize your car for a major fail, which emissions is classed as). Ended up with no fine or penalty etc but he had to take his car for an MOT test and pass (had a few days I think to do this). I don't know how it all works but it sounds a right PITA.


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## PhilEvans64 (Oct 30, 2018)

Mine has 200 cpi sports cats in the downpipes only and it fails but then manages to pass the MOT with a helpful inspector. I am thinking of an Ecutek map for MOT and lots of ethanol (it has a full flex fuel kit). Will speak to a couple of experts on the Forum ahead of the March 2022 MOT and service.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

What brand of sports cars are they?


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## PhilEvans64 (Oct 30, 2018)

Got them from Japspeed and you could easily see daylight through the catalyst when you held them up (prior to fitting). No significant increase in noise or petrol smell. I think the map is a bit rich, as it is for "700 PS". I did try the "Economy 600 PS" map for a week before the MOT and a Redex MOT prep bottle too. It still ran way outside some of the limits. Performance is great but it would be nice not to worry at each MOT and have to rely on sympathetic inspectors (if you get my meaning).


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Simonh said:


> Cool, glad you are pleased with it, for me I am not convinced another 20-25bhp is worth it.


Certainly looking at the figures on paper my thoughts would be the same as yours.
I guess if you have a certain bhp number in your head and the funds to spend its worth looking at.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

I think a good part of my problem is that having had the car for so long I know how infrequently I can really use the power I have already on the road, and how much it actually cost to use it on the track.

the idea of more power is nice, and pub talk figures always good for impressing people - real world though? not quite so much.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Most roads are in such a bad shape, I guess anything above 4.5 is wasted most of the time.


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## Exotic (May 2, 2020)

TREG said:


> Certainly looking at the figures on paper my thoughts would be the same as yours.
> I guess if you have a certain bhp number in your head and the funds to spend its worth looking at.


But pretty much all the Litchfield stages are around 20-50 BHP gain (except Stage 4.5 - 5) so around 30 BHP isn't unusual. Of course it depends on the individual if you think a gain is worth the outlay. I certainly don't think Stage 2 > 4 is a waste of money for me.

You may as well discount Stage 3 which gives 5 BHP from Stage 2 and should never have really been a Stage upgrade.

So it's really 6 stages (using a DBA as an example and Litchfield estimated gains):

OEM > Stage 1 is 542 > 590 BHP (48 BHP gain)
Stage 1 > Stage 2 is 590 > 610 BHP (20 BHP gain) 
Stage 2 > Stage 4 is 610 > 640 BHP (30 BHP gain)
Stage 4 > Stage 4.25 is 640 > 660 BHP (20 BHP gain)
Stage 4.25 > Stage 4.5 is 660 > 700 BHP (40 BHP gain)
Stage 4.5 > Stage 5 is 700 > 775 BHP (75 BHP gain)


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

Im happy with my stage 6,if thats what it is with that power. I normally run it at guesstimate 1.5 bar,which is probably 800hp. 

Recently took her for a service and was reported one of the turbos was making a hissing noise,so both sent away to be reconditioned. With engine out i was going to go for different turbos to the GTX 30s for more power,but instead decided it was a waste of money as the brakes were struggling as it was. As they rightly say,power is nothing without control,so instead fitted the quaffe front diff and had a set of 410 Ap Radical brakes fitted front and back. The tranformation is like a completly different car !!

Next year i want the LM bilstein suspension kit.

So as with Reanos list of modifications you could spend thousands getting to 900/1000hp,but a 4.25 with all the goodies fitted would be a quicker car on the backroads than a seriously tuned GTR and more enjoyable to drive.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Around shropshire its not too bad and I had good days between April - Oct. I have an s3 convertible and was able to drive with top down at least once in ever month from April - October ;-)


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

PaulcbaGtr said:


> So as with Reanos list of modifications you could spend thousands getting to 900/1000hp,but a 4.25 with all the goodies fitted would be a quicker car on the backroads than a seriously tuned GTR and more enjoyable to drive.


It might or might not be unless if the 1000+ bhp car is also tuned for spool and torque then that would be quicker. However as mentioned for road. Look at that list I put down (all form experience) will make the perfect road car. The mere ability to stop faster means everything is just improved. Going round corners flatter with less body roll gives confidence, less bumps on road gives refined feel and better pitching front to back means the car will grip better on launch, etc, etc.

So once you have that itch and you have got to 4.33! Then next select from that list


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Exotic said:


> But pretty much all the Litchfield stages are around 20-50 BHP gain (except Stage 4.5 - 5) so around 30 BHP isn't unusual. Of course it depends on the individual if you think a gain is worth the outlay. I certainly don't think Stage 2 > 4 is a waste of money for me.
> 
> You may as well discount Stage 3 which gives 5 BHP from Stage 2 and should never have really been a Stage upgrade.
> 
> ...


I went to stage 4.33 (bigger intercooler) and got c690 bhp. That was where I would have stopped but instead of Decat go sports cat.

So stage 4.25 --> 4.33 is 660 > 690 (30 bhp)
Stage 4.33 --> 4.5 690 - 700 (10 bhp)

So go either stage 2 (610bhp - 68bhp from stock minimum, 100+ torque), stage 4 (660bhp 50bhp from stage 2 30 - 50 torque) or stage 4.33 ( 690bhp 30bhp from stage 4 and maybe 15 - 20 torque and better spooling so less waiting around for boost  For FBO/stock.

These will be felt in both top end bhp and shove off the line.

So my advice to anyone if they have the funds and want to stay stock is go straight to 4.33 (with a sports cat) and get upto 150+bhp and 100 - 150+ torque. The difference will be night and day and then just upgrade the rest over time (like the brakes).


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Exotic said:


> But pretty much all the Litchfield stages are around 20-50 BHP gain (except Stage 4.5 - 5) so around 30 BHP isn't unusual. Of course it depends on the individual if you think a gain is worth the outlay. I certainly don't think Stage 2 > 4 is a waste of money for me.
> 
> You may as well discount Stage 3 which gives 5 BHP from Stage 2 and should never have really been a Stage upgrade.
> 
> ...




Yes for sure.
I think the sweet spot for road use and reliability is stage 2. 

I can recall my stage 1 keeping up with stage 4 cars on B roads from a mini meet a few years back with no issues. On a track I'm sure it would be different


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## SKNAM (Nov 30, 2018)

This is a really interesting thread, some good advice being shared.

I'm at stage 4.25 and keep thinking about changing things around. I could go 4.33 (get an intercooler and fuel pumps I already have) but am also toying with going back to stock or even the Nismo Sport ECU I have sat in the box. Roads are just crap condition around where I live and so definitely don't need the power, but I do like the sound.

This thread has now got me thinking about going Stage 4 and putting original cats back on (downpipes) and retain probably most all of the performance.....

Either way, I'll likely go "down" in stages. I don't think I would miss 20hp or whatever on the bum dyno for Stage 4. I know I'd miss the power and the drama going back to stock but its still appealing in a different way.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I don’t really see the point in stage five without doing the rods and gearset. You have a car with jockey at nearly 2 tonnes, you want as much torque as early as poss to get a move on. Why have something you can’t use?


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

Skint said:


> I don’t really see the point in stage five without doing the rods and gearset. You have a car with jockey at nearly 2 tonnes, you want as much torque as early as poss to get a move on. Why have something you can’t use?


Totally agree with this comment, the low down torque coming in as early as possible will make a quicker car on everyday roads than another 50bhp at the top end of the rev range. I've got a Litchfield map which gives 600lbft at 2800 revs from a stage 4.25 and uprated intercooler.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Going back to when I had hair on my head, I had two escort cosworth’s


Spec 1, big turbo, low compression, high lift and duration cams etc circa 500bhp
Spec 2, modified turbo,std compression, maybe cams but more mild lift and duration than spec 1 approx 365 bhp.

If you drove these cars on the road back to back you would have thought the bhp was the other way around.

People get carried away with big targets when it’s much more important in a road car to have the instant throttle response than waiting for something to build up and get a Big Bang.

It’s ok to look at a dyno run and read too far into it, transient response is not shown here.


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## TREG (May 20, 2004)

Skint said:


> Going back to when I had hair on my head, I had two escort cosworth’s
> 
> 
> Spec 1, big turbo, low compression, high lift and duration cams etc circa 500bhp
> ...



For sure mate.
Fast cars aren't always the ones with the highest BHP- certainly for road use


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I am sat here now thinking I’ve got too carried away with my own project.

Reimnissing at all the cars I’ve owned, it’s apparent the bolt on modded ones were the best. Everything that had been forged and ported with a big turbo was ruined as a road car.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

You have to give Nissans engineering team huge credit for what’s been a power house of a car.

We’re talking bhp figures into 1000’s now and still a chassis good enough to run with modern super cars.

But above all that comes the cost which a been excellent from day one.

If it was’nt for this car I think I’d be sat in a motor home every weekend, as no other car gives me the same buzz.

Thanks Nissan😊👍


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Skint said:


> I am sat here now thinking I’ve got too carried away with my own project.
> 
> Reimnissing at all the cars I’ve owned, it’s apparent the bolt on modded ones were the best. Everything that had been forged and ported with a big turbo was ruined as a road car.


You can do a 1000bhp road car but I don't see the point unless your going to do track, strip, nurburing or similar. Unfortunately for me that was an itch I had to scratch. The cost has to be justified as well (Covid jusstified it for me as I cancelled quite a few holidays, trips, etc) So made the 'man maths excuse' in my mind that that was dead money (and don't worry the kids, house, family all being looked after) lol.

So Im going to go the other way just for a bit ;-) The difference between a Litchfield 4.25 and a well tuned 1000bhp with say 800 torques is ridiculous. With a 4.25 you launch and its fast but your sort of OK with it. With the other you launch get to 60 in a massive smile and sweat. Now only you can say if that's worth it for you some spend a lifetime of thousands in drink, smoking, hoidays or whatever thrills ;-).

At the moment you are losing way less than you did before for 1000bhp cars and you do get back more for your mods but never all. 
If you go much beyond 1000bhp (I dont know this Im just guessing) it will be in the workshop every few months. A well build engine and trans on a GTR R35 seems to be reliable based on those that have done it years before but those monster builds beyond say 1300 bhp I'm not so sure.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

What would you safely think the max bhp you could put down on road tyres?


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

BHP almost anything once it gets going however re torque its around 800ft/lb at launch. All else is either spinning the tyres in there rims or on the tarmac. Of course once going then its more.

Thats what I was tuning this car for re launch with dimitri. Syvecs maybe can give a litlle more. Mine is around 840lb/ft and just about got them gripping on public roads and on standard mitchelin mp4s tyres (slight slip) but nothing like those monster ones squirming and drifting at start (and those are on track rims, track tyres and prepared surface).


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I have a customer who had 1100 then detuned it 900 and said it could'nt put that down in a controlled way. I think he was on 10j with square setup


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Here is the explanation of what I had in mind and how I went about achieving it.

Its the torque thats the issue, the turning power of the car thats the killer (e.g. to get it off the line, too much and your not going anywhere). The BHP is power potential of the car the more you have the faster it goes in terms of terminal speed, etc assuming you sorted the 'putting it down' part.

For me the key person was dimitri this was my no1 goal 'putting down the power, on the street'. I focused on 60ft and 0 -- 60 times as for me this is where the street times are. Out of bends, off the lights, down the country roads, etc its all in those times and 'in gear' reaction times (or transition time e.g. lack of lag).

All those 100 - 200kph times are pretty meaningless on the road unless your going to kill someone, have license taken away, etc. If you live on track or strip then fine but its why people go to extremes sometimes to say my time is xyz for that.

So for me to get the max out of the street with usage for track, etc you could stop at say 4.33 as discussed but if you have the itch then you got to be able to get more from the front wheels to help in the pull (hence my move to syvecs AWD), front diff, etc. You got to strengthen all of that.

Next is the off the line, off the line is all about 1st and 2nd gear. So straight away (if yor going beyond 4.33) you got to look at at least first gear but I would say 2nd gear also which means your looking at a full gearset (so you have confidence to push from any gear). This allows you to not shatter the gears with the torque off the line. I now get that brutal pull off the line where literally I have to find a straight road (a few in shropshire) where you can see all around you and no one is around. As all you can do is look straight ahead and concentrate and almost hold your breath its that fast! I tend to use either wide open industrial estates (where car parks are empty and away from cctv) and the roads to them on Sat/Sun morning when no one is around or a few choice roads I know or abandened airports, motorway section for example where the M54 joins the A5 there is a layby I can go in I can then look at the road behind me for about two miles and ahead for the same roll out to side then go (As an example) <-- You need to find your own roads for tuning, that are safe or see if a local airfield can help, etc.

As you increase the torque then your rods and pistons gonna get way more pressure and potential to bend, etc so you then have to look at that. The supporting mods are as is mentioned fuelling, flex fuel?, pumps, etc.

Now once you got all of this in place you need a strategy (Ecutek or Syvecs) to nail off the line and transitional speed (the ability to be in spool quickly off the line and while moving without slipping). I went for rear diff and diff brace again to reduce slip. Then worked with dimitri on sat/sunday mornings to dial in the traction control (at this power level), slip, in gear (1st and 2nd boost, etc) so that it gets put down.

My target time was if I can get 1.6s 60ft and 2.5s 0-60 (1ft roll out) then Im equalling the current Tesla (pre plaid) and Veyron off the line. All on full trim GTR, street and road tyres. This I have achieved. My spec is in the project section on (HulkPanther) G30-770. I haven't tested it but I think I can get 2.4s and 1.5s per above but once I hit the above target I stopped measuring as it took a few months to nail it.

I now need to see what I can get on the track (all guess work) but if I swapped to track/drag tyres and maybe drag wheels, with a prepped track, I think this is a 2 seconds (so Tesla Plaid) mid to high 9's 1/4m. I dont know Il report on that some time. Thats it for me 

Next is just to clean up top end for the 1/4 mile time which I will do on track but thats it. I did the above on standard roads, standard tyres 305/265 on the standard wheels for a MY17 plate car.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I did’nt qoute the torque figure of my customers car as I did’nt know, he originally stated it was 1100 approx bhp and then he detuned it to around 900bhp. He said that he struggled to put that power down if a safe manner. I think that was on toyo 888 with a square 10j setup.

It just got me thinking to how much you can use on the road, 4.5 conversions I’ve had in the past quite regular had the traction control kicking in.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Hmm for me that sounds strange, haha basically if I was to use the Nissan traction control my car would be limping everywhere. Dimitri has a strategy which means if you are going to be driving at pace switch traction control to off (it’s not off completely) then use map 4 which also has his strategy in place for slip, etc, etc. So I never get traction intervention in a bad way in that mode and I’m talking launching from 0mph or other speeds.

so only thing I think you need is a tuners traction strategy and turn off Nissan T/C then your good to go up to the limits of the rubber contact on the floor, wheels and surface.

so Dimitri, racecal, i know have good strategies for higher power cars. If I drive normally I set it to standard.

btw I have an s3 stage 1 convertible at 400/400 and even that tuner (MRC) tells me to turn the traction off so their tuning strategy kicks in as that just spins off the line as well and that’s a high c3.9 second car.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

Do you use v3 syvecs controller?


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

yes


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## Maty D (Nov 2, 2021)

4.25 is good safe power and more than enough for road use. Not many cars going to keep up with you off the lights.


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

You ain't got safe power without a set of rods in.


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## Reano (Oct 1, 2015)

Skint said:


> You ain't got safe power without a set of rods in.


And so it begins 😎


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I often think the rods were desinged that way to stop you from tuning them and then Nissan picking up large warranty claims😊


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## PaulcbaGtr (Apr 11, 2020)

Skint said:


> You ain't got safe power without a set of rods in.


Its all very hit and miss with the rods. I had standard rods with a 4.5 car i had,no trouble at all,but then again it wasnt tracked or abused. Someone else a knew had a stage 4 620hp and bent a rod! You pays your money and takes your chanch


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## Skint (Oct 11, 2014)

I think once your off std bhp you start to play a risky game, even though there’s hundreds of tuned cars out there proven time and time again to be reliable a call or story comes informing you of a terrible outcome And a whopping great big bill to follow.


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