# My engine...



## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

As some of you already know, the big ends went on my car in the first session at Brands on Monday. No clues before it/they went, well not until an hour later anyway. After 5 or 6 laps, we heard knocking so I came off the gas and crept back to the pits. Gary and Mark both confirmed what I already knew really.

An hour later, I get a call from Royal Purple with the result of my last Oil Scan, Geoff knew that I was at Brands and his opening words were, "don't drive today". Errr, too late. The latest results showed an excessive water content in the oil, >1500 parts per million, <50 parts is the norm. It also showed a slight increase in lead and manganese content which I'm told may be as result of bearings wearing. RP reckon that the water is probably there as a result of a failure of the head gasket, not necessarily the gasket itself, may be the installation. I have spoken to 3 tuners who use HKS head gaskets and none have ever experienced a failure of the gasket itself so that seems unlikely.

Of course there are a number of other possible explanations which tbh I don't whether they are likely or even possible causes of this. They are:

Condensation in the engine via the open breather system. Sounds possible other than why the sudden increase now when I've had the catchtank on for over a year?

Crack in the block or head. A crack in the head would probably lead to the oil being contaminated by water, which it isn't visibly although I guess at 1500 parts per million, I doubt this would be visible. A crack in the block may give the same result.

One thing worthy of note here is that I have definitely noticed an increase in the amount of gunk in my catchtank over the past 4 or 5 months, to the point that it overflowed both on the trip to Spa and after the event at Bruntingthorpe, although the latter followed months of road use without it being emptied.

Any observations or ideas here would be appreciated.

As most of you know, I do track my car regularly and hard and over the past four years, she has never let me down before so in those terms I guess I have been very lucky although the investment of hundreds of pounds in quality oil has, no doubt, helped that.

So what now? Investigate and rectify or look for a replacement 'tuners' engine. The latter appeals although it may prove unviable. The former is probably the route to take and would be for definite if there wasn't a water/oil issue as well as the bearings/crank. I'd hate to spend a wad finding out that the block or head had gone west when that wad could have been spent on a shiny new engine.... I'll keep you posted.


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## Demon Dave (Sep 15, 2002)

*Peter*

Sorry to hear that  I hope you get it all fixed up soon. 

Unfortunately I can't offer any advice, but if it was me and I'd go for the replacement tuners engine...

regards

Dave


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Peter,

Sorry to hear this buddy.

Its a bit of a dilema. I would go for the "tuners" engine if you can afford it for the fact it should come with a warranty, although this wouldnt be cheap. It also illiminates the possibilities of your block being porous or cracked and ending up throwing good money after bad.

On the other hand, between you and Taxi Driver, and the never ending toolbox I dare say you are one of the few people on here that could afford to risk just a bottom end refresh as there would be no labour to pay for. If its of any help I have a set of fully balanced and matched rods you can have that were destined for my engine. Its only that I may still go for the occasional "extra power" and wanted a bigger safety margin. I am no expert, but I believe that standard rods are good for 550-600 (as you have proved) so look at the extra attention these have as some insurance. PM me if you need any help with getting the crank checked/machined etc.

J.


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Are any of those NUR engines still available?


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## RonS (Dec 14, 2001)

Peter,

I was unaware you got the RP results so I think you can safely ignore my earlier emails now , if it were me and assuming the tests have drawn a correct conclusion ?, I would go for the a 'new' lump, as it sounds like it maybe difficult/costly/impossible to confirm the suggested causes, particularly as the engine can't be run

I agree with Dave the Nismo engine looks a fine bit of kit... Shin ??  and you've got all the right bits to bolt on too 

RonS


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Peter*

What gasket did you use stopper or drag ?
and I think you are talking the difference between a raindrop and a speck of water in your total oil capacity or do they measure the oil as parts per million as well, ?
just curiouse as this analizing thing seems informative, have you got a number for them ?


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Thanks chaps, the tuner engine is still out in front but I've not had any firm prices yet. 

Gary, we spoke earlier...

James, I'll be in touch as soon as I know which way I'm going, very much appreciated.

Ron, you're not getting off the easy, don't throw the latex gloves and tissues away just yet! 

There's more....

While speaking to Gary earlier, a thought occurred to me that as this last oil sample was taken straight out of the sump, could it have contained water that may be has collected in the bottom as normally you should take a sample mid flow..  I'm told that isn't the case but I always thought that oil was lighter than water. A sample of the Racing 51 that I put in her on Saturday is winging it's way to RP to check for water, etc. but also for signs of overfuelling.

A very strange situation arose with my Power FC last week. I increased the fuel pressure slightly as when she ran on the dyno she was a touch lean. Took her out for a run and got a big lump of det. While driving home, I had a quick look at all the settings and found that most were different to those set my Rod when it was mapped. I then spent a few hours over the weekend getting her to run better although she wasn't right and det. was still occurring albeit to a lesser degree on the road.

These were the differences that I noticed, there may be more but I won't know that until Rod compares things when he gets the ecu early next week:

Injector percentages were wrong, 67.5%, they were set at 74% for 600 injectors.

Air flow set for VG30 afms, was set for RB25s.

The fuel and ignition maps are different to those that were put in there by Rod. Fortunately I saved copies of these when I borrowed the Datalogit and whilst Rod had remapped the car before TOTB, he only touched the high load sites.

When we returned to the pits, the only peak hold parameter I looked at was det., 83...

Anybody got any ideas?

Having spoken at length to various people about this, it is felt that the combination of excessive fuel with the water with the det. is probably the cause for the failure.

There's more to come but I'll leave that until I've got time or may be I'll have got over the conspiracy theory by then....


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

Hi Peter 

ECU's don't change there settings all by themselves 


very strange 


Keith


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Pete,

If there's anything i can do to help out, let me know (there probably isn't much i can do, but ya never know).

Best of luck with it all.


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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

My guess for what it's worth...

A crack in the head, hairline fracture usually shows the following symptoms;

1. Oil contamination in the plastic radiator overflow tank.
2. Bubbling over of water/oil mix when you shut engine off.
3. Oily water spilling out from the outlet spout on the plastic rad.tank.

The only solution is;

1. Shout the word "Bugger!" very loud to relieve your tension at the inevitable expense.

2. Tow it to a reputable dealer, have them check it out to confirm the above.

3. Get a new head, and probably have the rest of the internals checked at the same time, valves, seals, etc and a new steel gasket.




 

Sorry but I think it's bad news.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Keith, yes indeed.

Thanks Daz.

John,

Not had any signs of water contamination in the oil but I'm not surprised as at even those levels, it wouldn't be visible. This next oil scan should be telling though...


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## John Lowe (Feb 20, 2002)

> Not had any signs of water contamination in the oil


No, you probably havn't, because the oil pressure is greater than the water pressure, so it only goes one way through the crack.

Water in the oil might indicate a leak in the head gasket, but oil in the water is a different thing. It has happened to me. Cost me a new cylinder head, valve stem seals, Trust 1.4 headgasket, inlet gasket + a few extras.
The heads do crack!


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## skyline501 (Jun 29, 2001)

*Novice Input*

I may be talking from my ar$e but have you an FC Commander?
If so, could anyone have been fiddling with it without your knowledge? May explain the different settings scenario.


Vincenzo


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## toffy (Oct 9, 2002)

Damned kids have been playing with dads new in car computer game again


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

John,

Will check in the morning...

Vincenzo,

Not a chance. In any event, having returned the injector percentages to the correct figure, 74%, she then ran over rich, I saw 98.2% injector duty at 7,000 revs at 1.4 bar. In the end I had to pull them all back to 68% to keep the injector duty below 90% so clearly the fuel map had been compiled with the incorrect (for my car) injector percentages.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Hard lines Peter, sorry.

Did the oil analysis check for other contaminates?


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

None that were mentioned to me Cord so I presume nothing significant. I haven't got the piece of paper yet though.


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Check to see for unburnt (obviously!!!!!!) fuel.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Yep, a sample of the oil that's in the car is being sent off for analysis. That's one thing I have asked to look for.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Pete,

Im just curious, but do RP offer this service to anyone?? And if so how much does it cost, as its got to be a good way to keep an eye on the health of your engine before (hopefully) anything major happens.

Cheers,

J


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

James,

I posted some details about it here. I presume that you need to be using RP oil though...


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## Martin F (Nov 20, 2002)

Peter said:


> *James,
> 
> I posted some details about it here. I presume that you need to be using RP oil though...  *


I can't access that page is it a members area ? 

Sorry to hear about your engine Peter, but i'm curious to see chat about Royal Purple products as i've been using their gearbox and power steering fluid for a while. 

Have you found a UK supplier as i had to order from the US.


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

Sorry to hear this Peter. Other than being a bummer at the best of times, I'm sure it makes it even worse after having gone through the whole "where's the power gone" scenario.

Will call you over the weekend to discuss and sympathise.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Martin,

Yes, sorry it's in the member's forum. You can get RP in the UK direct from RP www.royalpurple.co.uk or call Geoff Jackson on 01362 854164 or they will point you in the direction of a distributor.

Thanks Naz, speak to you soon.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Peter,

If its any help, we have sometimes had cars with cracked cylinder heads where the only symptom has been an unknown water loss.

Hope you get it all sorted out.

Anthony.


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## Martin F (Nov 20, 2002)

Thanks for that.

Look at that two stockists in Essex and i ordered from the US !!!!


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*I am sorry*

for you luck peter,
But hell look at it all this way you have had your car 4 years,
tracked it and thrashed the bollacks off it in all that time and your big ends have failed
So f"""""g what you have done well, very well in my oppinion,
Race cars rebuild every season you have gone 4
The Skyline is a race car, so repair it race it and mend it the next time it breakes as it will,

Just to comfort you my last 10.6 second run at Santa pod cost me £12 for the run and £1767.00 for the repairs,
Keiths are more  a lot more      
regards
Gary
I am glad keith has a sense of humor  but get rid of that """"" michellG  he doesent do you any favours


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## M19 GTR (May 26, 2002)

good luck with the car Peter. 

Gary .lol.

Tony


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Thanks Gary and Tony.

Why is everything so bloody complicated...?  It should be simple shouldn't it, engine breaks, fix it... err, no. Had it not been for the oil scan by Royal Purple, I'm convinced that would have happened and I would have been oblivious to a possible developing problem and ended up suicidal had the same thing happened again so I would strongly recommend their service to you all.

My overwhelming fear is that I do not want to spend money obortively trying to discover what problems I've got and then have to start afresh anyway because the cost of repairs make it unviable so do I get a new or rebuilt engine and either bin mine or keep that as a project, as a spare for the future?

Seems that I could easily spend as much rebuilding my engine back to stock as it would cost to get a new/rebuilt tuner engine so that looks like the way forward, at the moment.... At least I'll know it's history whereas the thought of buying a s/h engine is attractive, financially, but by the time I've stuck a head gasket, sump baffle kit, oil pump, water pump, etc. in it, again we're not that far off and who know how long that would last or if it has any underlying defects.

Now, which engine, what spec., when and, most importantly, how much?

I should know about the map issue today as Rod now has my PFC.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Peter,

If you're interested I'm happy to talk about the spec of my recent rebuild and the asociated costs etc. If it helps as a benchmark.

Good luck
John


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Fuggles said:


> *If you're interested I'm happy to talk about the spec of my recent rebuild and the asociated costs etc. If it helps as a benchmark.
> *


Funny, I didnt notice Peters car had a towball     

>>>>>>I'll go now I think !!!!!


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Thanks James   
I meant the engine. Not the exterior mods (now fixed)


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

bladerider said:


> *a towball *


For towing a "trailer"......................or as its knwn in houses that have Hoops  a "Wallet transportation device"

     

J.


laterrrrrrrrrr !!!


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *I should know about the map issue today as Rod now has my PFC. *


 Seems it has been messed with, not sure if it actually had much to do with the failure although having 160 pop up on the det monitor couldn't have helped. Will post about the oil scan results when I've got them as I will when I know what's next on the agenda...


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter,

Whilst my memory may not be the most reliable of beasts, I'm sure I've now seen several reports from people regarding PFC's where the mapping does not seem to match any longer what was believed to have been placed in there.

Does anybody actually check their mappings from time to time?

Electronics, especially vehtronics, has acquired a level of perceived reliability now that most people do not think twice about it. Fact is silicon does "wear out". It ages through the heat up/cool down process, plus failures develop at the boundary layers of the silicon as in simple terms they "wear" due to electron migration.

Likewise, dependent on shielding, they can also be susceptable to interference from other radiated sources - this can be something as basic as a mobile phone, although that has become less likely as people became aware of the problems.

It is also unusual that it should cause a "mis-map" result - one assumes the figures are stored in memory and its odd if degradation results in a mapping that is still valid enough to run the car - unless its least significant bits (LSB's) that are going off. Its not being power spiked or over clocked in some way is it? Although why that should affect stored values I cannot think of at present, especially without detailed knowledge of the PFC design. I suppose one question is, its an "old" design in electronic terms, it can get very difficult to find the original design components very quickly (usually manufacturers offer equivalents), this can have all sorts of consequences on designs - especially ones with heavy reliance on timings..... 

Perhaps it might be worth conducting a form of survey? Has Rod (or anyone else?) any previous awareness of PFC's losing the plot? 

DaveG


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

This is also something I have noticed in a few posts, PFC's inexplicably changing a value or two.

I have to say that I would be very wary about using one.

Simon


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Dave,

I would love to believe that but none of what's changed makes sense for it to be some random corruption electronically or the car wouldn't have run as it did. It's obvious to me that the settings were not corrupted in some random way. When I tried putting the settings (injector %s and airflow) that I could access via the Commander back to how they were, she wouldn't run so they clearly were set that way or it was some absolutely incredible fluke.

Mark's case was different and that's the only other case that I've heard of where the PFC settings have changed mysteriously....


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## Smootster73 (Oct 23, 2001)

*an electronic unit like the*

power FC would not "run down" as some people have put it. 
I believe it is only barely 32 bit technology so it does not really have the learning capacity surely to cope with any changes as such to the underlying unit.

I would expect it to fail, as opposed to gradually depreciating as such. nor would you expect the unit to provide a flag up of problems in some sort of mgmt interface or dashboard. it is just not that clever or really that self intuiative...yes it will log readings/changes/alterations from the car but self mgmt is just not going to happen.

my money would be on sth being tampered with or another anamoly to a complex engine and set up.

uncle pete, sorry to hear about this and I hope you are up and running. 

I have always admired what you do, how you drive and you are the perfect example of how to go quickly without sheds loads of expense! 

NLW


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Thanks Nick, appreciate that. I'm with you on your diagnosis of my problem.... 

Have a Happy Christmas mate.


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Bad timing... in more ways than one sadly...

The RP people are top notch, even if they didn't catch you quite in time, the Oil analysis proved spot on.

RP = quality.

Power FCs' can be effected by all sorts of extraneous sources, they are not alone, but maybe the location within the shell of the car may be at fault, I recall that mercedes had problems with their SLs' due to this, the problem in the test cars cause the 'limp home' mode to engage randomly, just moving the unit 50mm stopped the problem and has never returned...

I think it may be a good idea to relocate the unit or if you can get a gaussian shield for the unit, simple mesh [similar to that used in 'Davy lamps' is the finest Gaussian shield you can buy.

May look odd but it may just be all you need do!


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Iain,

I am still convinced about RP although when something like this happens, ones mind tends to question every aspect of the car and the oil hasn't escaped that questioning but it has come through.

Again, I'd like to believe your suggestion about the PFC and if the car stopped working (as in Mark's case) or if by returning the settings to how they were, it ran OK, I'd be tempted to believe that explanation but that simply didn't happen. Plus it's been in that position for 4 years now, along with countless others. I've yet to hear of any others that have been affected in the way mine was or any other logical suggestion how this came to pass other than by an input change to the settings...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

I've decided to get the bottom end checked out before deciding what to do next. Gary will be doing this for me. At least I'll be in possession of all the facts which should make the next decision a more informed one.

In the absence of any logical or credible suggestion as to how the settings were altered on my PFC, I can only assume that the conspiracy theory is correct, what a crying shame....


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Peter - just out of morbid curiosity what is the conspircy theory? that the settings were altered by someone? malicously (sp??) or in a what does this do, oppps!! kind of way?

is it possible to get the unit checked over to make sure it is functioning correctly beofre you put it back in the car.

Simon


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *Iain,
> 
> I am still convinced about RP although when something like this happens, ones mind tends to question every aspect of the car and the oil hasn't escaped that questioning but it has come through.
> 
> Again, I'd like to believe your suggestion about the PFC and if the car stopped working (as in Mark's case) or if by returning the settings to how they were, it ran OK, I'd be tempted to believe that explanation but that simply didn't happen. Plus it's been in that position for 4 years now, along with countless others. I've yet to hear of any others that have been affected in the way mine was or any other logical suggestion how this came to pass other than by an input change to the settings... *


What could explain it, is that the memory in which the maps are stored, is semi-permanent, i.e. battery backup SRAM instead of Flash memory. Batteries tend to wear out and need to be replaced every now and then.

As for Mycroft's remark re. shielding: if you do that, you need to shield everything, from sensor to ECU connector; the transition from connector to housing needs to be seamless otherwise it won't work. It's not that simple...and very expensive...car manufacturers don't like that.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Simon,

That's the only credible explanation that anybody has come up with so far. Rod Bell has checked the unit over and everything functions fine...

Andre,

Are you 100% sure about the memory in the PFC? Is there a board battery in the PFC?

Again, I'd like to believe that but the chances of the settings changing in some random way that still allowed the car to perform as she did I think are zero. You, of all people here, will realise that you don't need to change much in a setup to cause the car not to run properly. The settings, injectors percentages, airflow settings, etc. allowed the car to run and must have been set by somebody but they clearly weren't 100% right for the car or I wouldn't have seen such dramatic det. readings. As we all know, det. can wreck an engine in seconds. 

I guess in hindsight, having discovered that something untoward had happened to the PFC prior to Brands, I shouldn't have run, I should have taken the PFC out and sent it to Rod instead but when you get told not to worry (not Rod btw), it'll be fine, you take them at their word. But there you go, you live and, hopefully, learn....


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *Are you 100% sure about the memory in the PFC? Is there a board battery in the PFC?*


I don't actually know the PFC design, so I can't say if I'm right or not. I've got one on the shelf somewhere, I'll open it and have a look. However, you can believe me re. batteries wearing out, although 4 years is a bit on the early side for my taste.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

I don't doubt that batteries wear out but I'm not sure that the PFC's memory relies upon a battery backup. To test your theory, my PFC has been sitting on my desk since before Christmas, I'll stick it back in this week and see if the settings are still all there... Still don't think it's an explanation though for the reasons outlined above.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Sorry to change tack slightly Peter,

But what is regarded as safe, high or dangerous levels of knock on the PFC commander??

I would like to know before it lunches itself next time !!

Cheers,

J.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Hi James,

How's the bomber going?

There isn't a definitive answer to that as there's doubt that the knock sensors are that accurate at higher rev levels. Personally I hated seeing anything over 40 but even the instructions say that at the stock setting of 60, you may not be experiencing det. I guess you can only regard it as a guide but I'm fairly sure that when you see 160, as I did, you've got a det. problem...


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Hi Peter,

just under 2400miles and not used any oil - bit of a change to last time !!   

Thanks for the advice, I'll bear that in mind. Cant wait to get it mapped and see more than 4800 revs.

Good luck with yours,

J.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Peter,

i sincerely hope that you do find a problem with the PFC -cos the alternative just does not bear thinking about    

I hope you get it back on the road soon.

Simon


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## Smootster73 (Oct 23, 2001)

*battery power would*

be irrelevant uncle P.
the unit would have a back up facility for sure as got to be 32 bit based.
just like a pc...if your battery runs out it has a back up facility and then if you switch it back on....hey presto all yr settings are restored.
I think the clever chaps at apexi would have thought about back ups long before I was even born mate!

sounds like someone has ****ed up to me and should own up!

running at brands is irrelevant....the red bomber has been running hard for years with all the pre cautions taken!


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Thanks James and Simon.

Look, I don't want to give the impression that I'm whinging on about something which probably far too many people on here have experienced for themselves before and they've just got their credit cards out, bit the bullet and got on with it. 

Of course I'm gutted, as is obvious, but I am genuinely trying to find out if there is some way that this has happened apart from, as Simon says, the unthinkable has happened, be that deliberate or by mistake.... So far, it's 1 - 0.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: battery power would*



Smootster73 said:


> *running at brands is irrelevant....the red bomber has been running hard for years with all the pre cautions taken! *


 I know what you mean Nick but I do blame myself as I knew that something wasn't right and I should have resisted Brands and got it sorted instead but you know what the allure of a day on track can be like...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Just thought I'd mail Apexi about this but can't seem to find an appropriate email address, anybody got one?

Ta.


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *I don't doubt that batteries wear out but I'm not sure that the PFC's memory relies upon a battery backup. To test your theory, my PFC has been sitting on my desk since before Christmas, I'll stick it back in this week and see if the settings are still all there... Still don't think it's an explanation though for the reasons outlined above. *


No need. I've opened the PFC I've got (32/33), no battery. It relies on flash memory storage.


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: battery power would*



Smootster73 said:


> *be irrelevant uncle P.
> the unit would have a back up facility for sure as got to be 32 bit based.
> just like a pc...if your battery runs out it has a back up facility and then if you switch it back on....hey presto all yr settings are restored.
> I think the clever chaps at apexi would have thought about back ups long before I was even born mate!
> *


As far as I can see it's a 16 bits unit. Also, having a battery backup facility is independant of "how many bits it is". And don't expect companies like APEXi to know everything, because they don't.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

somberg said:


> *No need. I've opened the PFC I've got (32/33), no battery. It relies on flash memory storage. *


 So would that mean that the settings, in all probablility and unless somebody knows to the contrary, can only be changed by a direct manual input?


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Peter said:


> *Look, I don't want to give the impression that I'm whinging on about something which probably far too many people on here have experienced for themselves before and they've just got their credit cards out, bit the bullet and got on with it.
> B]*


* 

Don't worry about that Peter. I am sure that there plenty of others along with me that are quietly reading this thread and taking note of what is being said and hoping that the same does not happen to them 

I hope that someone has not fiddled with your car 
I still remember the day well, when one of my brothers mates turned both of the idle adjustment screws in on my Suzuki X7. When I kick started it, it revved out Good thing that it was a 2 stroke Not quite the same, but still not nice.*


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter said:


> *So would that mean that the settings, in all probablility and unless somebody knows to the contrary, can only be changed by a direct manual input? *


Applying the major assumption that the changes where "involuntarily" the likelihood/probability is the resulting random configuration would be one that would not allow the engine to run.
If very few memory address's had failed, i.e. only one or two map "sites" where changed and all the other sites and parameters where valid, then problems would occur only when the system "accessed" those sites. If the memory location was associated with data containing critical parameters it probably would only need one to go down to stop the engine.
Key issue here is that once a device goes, it does not "get better", when its gone, its gone. I believe from your previous comments that Rod has checked your PFC and its performing 100% correct. That implies the "hardware" is working to specification therefore to answer your question - any changes must be a consequence of manual input.

Remember, its just a stupid computer, it only does what you tell it too.

From Rod's investigation Peter I presume you can identify the data changed. This may provide some indications of cause, i.e. how does the data "fit" in the system, what access's it and most importantly how can it be modified either by the system itself (not possible I would guess) or externally and by what means. Contrary to popular belief perhaps, even simple computers such as the PFC don't necessarily allow unbridled access to all parts of their system, even if you have the Commander handset.

Might be worth supplying before/after details to Apexi and asking them for comment on how this could occur.

DaveG


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

davewilkins said:


> *Don't worry about that Peter. I am sure that there plenty of others along with me that are quietly reading this thread and taking note of what is being said and hoping that the same does not happen to them *


 Thanks Dave. 

2nd Dave, 

I will ask Rod but the parameters which were 'alien' to his setup, that I know about, were the injector percentages (67.5% rather than 74%) and the airflow meter setting (VG30 rather than RB25). As I've said before, it is inconceivable to me that by some astronomic fluke, these changes would allow the car to run, unless it was by design. The ignition and fuel maps are still his. I'm told that the airflow setting means that the car will access different map positions as a result.


----------



## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Peter said:


> *Thanks Dave.
> 
> 2nd Dave,
> 
> I will ask Rod but the parameters which were 'alien' to his setup, that I know about, were the injector percentages (67.5% rather than 74%) and the airflow meter setting (VG30 rather than RB25). As I've said before, it is inconceivable to me that by some astronomic fluke, these changes would allow the car to run, unless it was by design. The ignition and fuel maps are still his. I'm told that the airflow setting means that the car will access different map positions as a result. *


Peter I know you have seen this thread before but to me it does strike a chord......... PFC AFM setting thread 

Simon


----------



## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Not really Simon as Mark's car wouldn't run as a result of the change, however that change came about....


----------



## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

ah yes - good point.

anyway I'll shut up now as this must be like picking at a scab for you........

Simon


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Not at all Simon, it's almost like therapy for me!  Not forgetting that I need, for my own peace of mind, to reach a conclusion about what has happened, which I think I have now...... unless anybody knows something that I don't.


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*ECU*

Just a thought Peter, will you make it clear that your ECU was not touched when you came to my workshop to fit your clutch, I wouldnt want people to put 2+2 together and come up with 5 as I certainly would not wish to be mistakenly associated with such deviant unprofessional behaviour if that is what caused it.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Aaaaaah, I wondered what you were doing when Rob forced me to go to MacDonalds with him, you scroundrel!!!  

Of course not Andy, even if I thought you were up to dreaming up these settings, which I don't,  I know perfectly well that you of all people would be the last to do something like this.

Btw, where's Kiesa's cheque?


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## Harry (Sep 1, 2002)

*Andy's Workshop*

I seem to recall Peter that you were left alone in the car whilst it was up in the air on the hoist for quite some time. You were complaining that you were bored and that you wanted to be let down. You sure you didnt get so bored you started playing with the PFC


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Now you come to mention it Harry........ nope, wasn't me either.  Shall we start a guessing game then?


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## Harry (Sep 1, 2002)

Wasnt me, I'm hopeless with electricals - I'm lucky not to have blown mine up  

If it wasnt Andy, you or me, then must have been Ron


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

well we all saw what he did to his sump plug - and that was without even trying!!!!!!     


Simon


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter said:


> *Now you come to mention it Harry........ nope, wasn't me either.  Shall we start a guessing game then?   *


Oh, I like guessing games!!  

Lets see, I presume it must use letters of the alphabet, like A B? 

Do we get a clue? Is it a book, a film, or a play? How many syllables? Can you do the whole thing? 

Perhaps I'm not very good at this after all.


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *So would that mean that the settings, in all probablility and unless somebody knows to the contrary, can only be changed by a direct manual input? *


No it doesn't. Flash memory can be corrupted by being programmed too many times (there's a limit re. how many times you can reprogram it), overheating, voltage spikes, as well a processor fault that can cause the processor to execute teh code that actually programs the flash memory. So, there are many things that can go wrong there. On the other hand would I be surprised to see for instance just a change of the injector settings and no other signs, although even that could be possible depending on the allocation of variables in memory. I would be careful to jump to any conclusions here. It certainly would need insight design knowledge of the PFC and detailed information about what exactly was changed in memory in order to be able to exclude self-destructionary behaviour.


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

ATCO said:


> *Applying the major assumption that the changes where "involuntarily" the likelihood/probability is the resulting random configuration would be one that would not allow the engine to run.*


I don't agree. There is a fair chance it will run but it depends on many factors what the odds are.



> *If very few memory address's had failed, i.e. only one or two map "sites" where changed and all the other sites and parameters where valid, then problems would occur only when the system "accessed" those sites.*[


You won't notice problems when only one or two sites are knackered.



> * If the memory location was associated with data containing critical parameters it probably would only need one to go down to stop the engine.*


That fully depends on the actual parameter involved and the amount of change it's had. You suggest that it's probable, I think it's more complicated than that.

*



Key issue here is that once a device goes, it does not "get better", when its gone, its gone.

Click to expand...

*Not always true, a CPU crashing and consequently executing code in an unorderly manner, i.e. at a time it shouldn't, is NOT broken. It merely made a "mistake" and will recover after a reset and/or power-off/on.

*



I believe from your previous comments that Rod has checked your PFC and its performing 100% correct. That implies the "hardware" is working to specification therefore to answer your question - any changes must be a consequence of manual input.

Click to expand...

*I disagree based on your argumentation as I have tried to explain.

*



Remember, its just a stupid computer, it only does what you tell it too.

Click to expand...

*It is indeed a stupid computer BUT it doesn't always do what you tell it to !!

*



From Rod's investigation Peter I presume you can identify the data changed. This may provide some indications of cause, i.e. how does the data "fit" in the system, what access's it and most importantly how can it be modified either by the system itself (not possible I would guess) or externally and by what means. Contrary to popular belief perhaps, even simple computers such as the PFC don't necessarily allow unbridled access to all parts of their system, even if you have the Commander handset.

Click to expand...

*- you would need to be able to compare all of the contents of the memory with what it is and should have been
- if parts of memory that cannot be changed ("written")by hand are affected, then it is likely that human intervention can be excluded
- again it IS very well possible that "the system changes itself" by e.g. erroneously reprogramming (parts of) the flash memory.

*



Might be worth supplying before/after details to Apexi and asking them for comment on how this could occur.

Click to expand...

*You can always try.

I hope this sheds some light on things. All of you: be careful with your judgements please and don't jump to conclusions. Let this not become a finger pointing contest.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

So if it's only been 'programmed' 3 or 4 times since leaving the factory, would that for all intents and purposes, rule that likelihood out too? The overriding fact to all this is that the probability of some form of corruption leaving the car running OK is, I believe, not worthy of consideration.

Oh well, 'whatever' springs to mind, it's happened, clearly nobody is going to stick their hand up, nobody is going to come up with a definitive suggestion as to why it happened on its own and I'll have to sort it. I'm convinced that I know the facts but, just in case it is some freak happening, I will keep a much closer eye on things as soon she's up and running again.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

It was me !!

In the library

With a candle stick

Some baby oil

And Miss Scarlet !!




Do I get a prize??


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *So if it's only been 'programmed' 3 or 4 times since leaving the factory, would that for all intents and purposes, rule that likelihood out too? The overriding fact to all this is that the probability of some form of corruption leaving the car running OK is, I believe, not worthy of consideration.
> 
> Oh well, 'whatever' springs to mind, it's happened, clearly nobody is going to stick their hand up, nobody is going to come up with a definitive suggestion as to why it happened on its own and I'll have to sort it. I'm convinced that I know the facts but, just in case it is some freak happening, I will keep a much closer eye on things as soon she's up and running again. *


If it's only programmed 3 or 4 times in it's total lifetime, I wouldn't expect the flash device to be "broken". It doesn't rule out the fact that the processor can erroneously execute flash programming code though. And I disagree with you re. the chances of corruption leaving the car running ok. I've seen stranger things than that.

What you believe is of course your own business. It would be nice though to learn more about the factual background of your beliefs. I'm not saying that human error couldn't have caused it though, just saying that it's not as easy as it appears to be.

Andre.


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## Renton (Aug 1, 2002)

I find it very hard (read impossible) to believe that the data in the PFC could corrupt in such a way that only certain things (for example, different AFM setting, injetcor %) have changed. And other parts (fuel map, etc) remain exactly as they were before.
Also if these certain parts have corrupted I would expect there to be no readable information there, not a completely different setting or figure. My level of computer knowledge is not all knowing, but I do not believe it possible for the memory to corrupt or fail and then come up with more information that is recogniseable by the PFC as a different setting, and CERTAINLY not on more than one occasion.

It is blindingly obvious that you or someone else has changed something you shouldn't have. 

Are the things that have been altered accesible through the hand commander or only via a laptop?


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Renton said:


> *I do not believe it possible for the memory to corrupt or fail and then come up with more information that is recogniseable by the PFC as a different setting, and CERTAINLY not on more than one occasion.*


EXACTLY my thinking...

Your view when mapping on a laptop or hand commander may only be (for example) a 1 that was changed to a 3, but its more than just a number in programming terms im sure, so DAMN sure it wouldnt be from a corrupted program.
Thats like having a pic of Carmen Luvana on your Hard Drive and it being corrupted and suddenly its a pic of Bella Emberg, lol, it just not possible.
If it fooked up itd change to somthing the PFC couldnt recognise, not just a different rating or whatever...

IMO someone deffo messed with it, hope i find out who, so i never go there...


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Surely it's more a question of why rather than who?

Phil


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Renton said:


> *I find it very hard (read impossible) to believe that the data in the PFC could corrupt in such a way that only certain things (for example, different AFM setting, injetcor %) have changed. And other parts (fuel map, etc) remain exactly as they were before.
> Also if these certain parts have corrupted I would expect there to be no readable information there, not a completely different setting or figure. My level of computer knowledge is not all knowing, but I do not believe it possible for the memory to corrupt or fail and then come up with more information that is recogniseable by the PFC as a different setting, and CERTAINLY not on more than one occasion.
> 
> It is blindingly obvious that you or someone else has changed something you shouldn't have.
> ...


What are these certain things exactly ? Just read back the thread, I get the impression that the maps were changed too ?

Seems to be a very weard story. Is it your own PFC Peter ?


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Did you say that the setting was VQ30 as opposed to RB25 (larger volume afms for rb26). What is the VQ30 then?


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## Henry (Jul 19, 2001)

*Peter*

I`ve read this Thread and it seems all possible avenues have been examined..........

Everyone Knows to whom you are pointing a finger at so instead of going on & on just pick up the phone, speak to them and get it off your chest.

The truth is that "they all go bang" and I should know!

550BHP+ from 2.6litres = short life span. 

The Japanese Gods have certainly looked after you big time in the past, how many track days have you done in your car in the last 3 or so years! In the 5 1/2 years I had my R33 it was off of the road for close to 3 years and 4 engines and almost £90,000(the cost of a brand new GT3RS or an almost new GT2)

My advice is to move on as quickly as possible and get that engine repaired or replaced and I will look forward to seeing "the Red Rocket" back on track where you & it belongs.

Best wishes,
Henry.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Henry,

I don't think Peter is interested in making a mountain out of a molehill. I think by establishing some key facts, then hopefully the whole community would benefit by his findings in order to stop this from happening again.

If there is a general PowerFC fault, then it would be prudent to find out what caused it.

Cem


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Renton said:


> *It is blindingly obvious that you or someone else has changed something you shouldn't have.
> 
> Are the things that have been altered accesible through the hand commander or only via a laptop? *


 Renton,

Not me I can assure you. The parameters that I know have changed are accessible via the Commander and laptop. I'll ask Rod if he noticed what, if anything, else had altered.

Andre,

Yes it's my own PFC, as far as I know. It was one of the first units to be used in the UK on a Skyline, 4 years ago now.

Dave,

VG30s are Z32 afms.

Henry,

As Cem kindly explained, I'm not on some kind of witch-hunt here. Of course a discussion took place albeit a very brief one. Just prior to Christmas, I was quite clearly informed that no further discussion about the matter would be entertained, end of.

Anyway, why the fcuk should I shut up about it, if you don't want to read it, don't. Just because people like you and Guy, for example, have suffered from poor service in the past which has cost you both dearly and may be as a consequence you've decided to jump ship, that's no reason why I should accept something which blatantly shouldn't have happened. I'm not in a position to chuck bundles of cash after the car and even if I was, the main reason for starting this thread was to find out if there are any possible reasons, other than the obvious, that could explain what has happened, I don't want it to happen again.

I don't even consider myself lucky that the car has stayed together so well over the past 4 years. Considering the time I spend prior to each and every track day making sure the car is 100% right everywhere, it's not luck, it's just pay back for that time and money spent maintaining her. You know that I've done all the work to the car myself, with Ron on occasions, and despite me not being a mechanic, she's withstood far more than a lot of cars modded by tuners, may be there's a rub there, who knows.

I've already stated that I don't think that the PFC is solely responsible for the failure but it must have had a part to play. 

Sorry to be blunt and I will be moving on but this is an issue which deserves discusson here.


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## Ged (Jun 29, 2001)

Peter,
I am sorry your engine has a problem Peter. You are a nice bloke and give a lot to this club by organising excellent track days etc.
Sad when anyones engine has a problem, but moreso when its a nice bloke.

I have followed this thread from day 1.
I can not believed it is still going.
I can not believe the PowerFC had a fault.
If the settings were changed then they were changed.
A six page discussion thread will not


> *prevent changes from being made in future*


I believe Henry is absolutely correct.
Your car has had a lot of abuse, many have had much less abuse and have suffered major problems sooner. I am not referring to cars such as Henry's, Ronnie's, Rupert's here either but more the 450-550bhp cars such as yours.
Maybe yours has survived longer due to your TLC.

However lets be realistic....the engine stock produces 320bhp.
Running 200bhp over stock on standard internals it is almost certain to go bang at some point.
It is definitely a matter of time only.

I also look forward to you getting it repaired and back where you both belong.

The only thing further of interest I would like to see on this thread is your next few posts


> *my engine has now been rebuilt*





> *my rebuilt engine is now installed and I am running it in*





> *my engine is now run in I am really happy*


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Ged,

OK, I'll put down to experience then, that in all probability, somebody has contributed to my engine failing, by mistake or deliberately and has ended up costing me +£5k. What an honourable world this is.

I'll close this thread later as it's obviously not a subject which is worthy of discussion.


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Thread*

No, dont close it, why should you.

This is about the most interesting point ever been raised here, just because a couple of people are telling what they think, who cares, hundreds of others are watching this thread to see where it goes.

Loads of people now have these ECU's installed and its a valid point, if anything it should be made ' sticky', keep it to the top of the page.

Lets find the truth, you want me to ask Apexi for you?, I could ask if they have a way of checking to see the last updates in the ECU and when they were, maybe we can send the ECU back to Japan to be checked out.


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## polarbearit (Dec 1, 2001)

I'm interested to hear how you get on with the engine (re)build... (and costs!)


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

Peter said:


> *I'll close this thread later as it's obviously not a subject which is worthy of discussion. *


The issue is obviously bothering you so you should not close the tread in my view. As you said, if the tread offends people (and to be honest why should it?), they have the choice to read or not to read it and to post their own views.

Best of luck with the rebuild.


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Apexi*

It is easy to see the last update on the ECU
The last map will need to be saved as, then go to data file,
right click the map, left click go to options = date last modified
but i am not doing it


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Apexi*



gary said:


> *but i am not doing it *


 Classic!


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Gary,

Sorry, I must have been asleep when I read your post. Does it only record the last modification because if it does, as I tried restting the parameters, airflow, etc. to how they should have been, it will only show that which won't prove anything. If it records a log of modifications, that would be interesting...


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## MarioGTR (Jul 8, 2001)

*Power FC*

Peter,

I thought long and hard about replying to this thread, you of all people should know yourself why I'd be reticent, especially considering the subject in question is the A'PEXi Power FC.

To answer your posed questions:

There is a known design flaw in the design of early generation R32/R33 Power FC units, in so far that the Flash has a drastically reduced lifespan due to an overvoltage supply to specific parts, attributed in part to the use of an incorrect voltage regulator.

However, the resulting problem manifests itself in the unit "losing its settings" completely and an inability to retain new ones. It doesn't happen in parts - its an all or nothing affair.

You say that you had "different settings" and even some of them were altered (such as the AFM's used). This, to me, is especially relevant - quite simply that the delta tables and AFM's are stored in a completely different memory region (ie: another chip from the main flash) so for both to be changed is an indicator of something else amiss.

In short, someone has messed with your settings to have changes in both the transient delta settings and the fuel maps.

There is no other explanation that could be attributed to a hardware flaw, as there is internal checking for corruption of the internal flash by the Power FC's firmware - any corrupted bits would be identified as an internal fault at the initialisation (power on) stage.

If there was a memory fault, the unit will automaticall revert to "factory default" settings, so that would mean that everything would be standard. You said that it was using RB25 or Z32 AFM's, well, if it was cleared, you'd have Standard as default, so that rules even a cleared map out as a possibility.

Mario.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

We seem to have hit one or two sensitive spots here.

Firstly, this thread is about due process. Part of the purpose of this Board is to provide a forum for subjects to be raised, reviewed and discussed by those with a direct interest (Skyline Owners) or passing interest (non-Skyliners/Wannabe's etc.) in said subject. From the majority of responses, this it seems is a worthy subject. 

Peter clearly has a direct personal interest in this issue and I'm sure would like to achieve a satisfactory result in so far as he can for himself, and along the way by being "public" he may assist others here. Why should anyone complain about that?

Secondly, comments about, "be grateful, you had a good run" etc. are derisory if not insulting. Those who have met/know Peter even on a limited basis (like me) I'm sure are aware he is not generally a "chancer" (I discount his driving here....). The car it seems has run like it has because of the time and effort he has invested in it, working hard at putting off "the day" as far as he can, luck or gratuity has nothing to do with it. *** Deletion of paragraph here due to wrong person reference ***.

If I've understood Peter's posts correctly, he readily admits that "the day" arrived. OK, if the "water/oil" issue had been known beforehand he might have been able to delay the day longer. I think Peter also classes that as coming partially under the "self inflicted"heading because some warning signs I understand where there. Although of course its always easy to see they were there after the event. He has also highlighted that its possible the PFC situation may well have participated in the timing of "the days" arrival. 

OK, the PFC situation alone might not have resulted in this happening, but I'm sure the fact that it happened at all should be a cause for concern for anyone. If you cannot have trust, be it in kit, suppliers or your driving even, especially in our "performance environment" where your life may depend on it, what are you supposed to do? Unfortunately Peter has trodden this path and to his credit I believe he is trying to ensure as best he can none of us follow him. 

If attention is to be focused on your PFC, it would be helpful Peter if it stores an "event log" file in its memory you can get printed out, or someone can identify date/time stamps on the last changes. 

DaveG


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

*Re: Power FC*



MarioGTR said:


> *Peter,
> 
> I thought long and hard about replying to this thread, you of all people should know yourself why I'd be reticent, especially considering the subject in question is the A'PEXi Power FC.*


 Mario,

Firstly, thank you for deciding to respond. I had hoped that somebody with in depth knowledge of the PFC would add to this and, apart from Apexi, I am confident that there isn't anybody with as much of that as you. I fully appreciate your reticense and I know that we haven't always been the best of buddies but as I have tried and failed to explain to you previously, I personally did not benefit in any way from the FC Pro saga, well apart from it becoming a tool which our tuners can use, hopefully to the benefit of me and all the other PFC users in the UK. It was a case of the messenger getting shot...

Do you know if the PFC keeps a log of modifications made or does it purely record the last change?


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Was the thread worth continuing? Well Yes.
Marios comment of "There is a known design flaw in the design of early generation R32/R33 Power FC units" is quite important as my unit (being fitted now) is brand new. It is worth having a brand new unit rather than a very old second hand one.
Dave
btw someone said earlier that we all know where the finger is being pointed but I don't (probably missed something). Probably best left that way as well
edited to say :
my car is currently being modded to the 500 + spec. I aim to put £4 - 5 k by asap to ensure that I can have the engine rebuilt when it fails as I know that it will eventually as it is a fact of life


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

lol

just keep it hidden from Barb else you will be getting a new kitchen or summat and the 4-5k will be more like 1 or 2 !!! pmsl !!

J


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

..edited out DaveG's quote...

As for Mario's comment: perhaps, it doesn't conflict with what I said earlier. I don't know enough of the PFC hardware and software design to be able to say that this is definitely true or false.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

somberg said:


> *Am I right in thinking that you've mixed up a few people ? Please review and edit post accordingly. *


Ooops! Apologies Andre, you are right about me mixing people up. Fingers and brain not in synch again as I'd actually had your comments about "electronics/software" in mind. I've completely deleted the end of the paragraph.
DaveG (With go faster rear screen installed)


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

*"Lucky Luke" DaveG*

 faster than your own shadow....


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## M19 GTR (May 26, 2002)

Please dont close this thread i have been following it since it started and it is a point which is of big interest to alot of people.

Tony


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

There are 2 issues here,

1, The power FC

2, Engine failure


1:- I believe the unit performs some form of self diagonosis on start up, but am not entirely sure. If the memory was to fail of some sort then the setting would simple be lost, not re-created as a different value. I have had VERY little experience of units failing, but when they have gone, they simply won't do anything, not alter their values.

2:- Engine failure, I think the main contributing factor in your failure is 4 years of hard use. Driving your car hard on a track for 4 years is putting your engine (that is putting out 200bhp more than it was made for) under tremendous strain and the wear and tear will at some point rear it's ugly head. If you want to push your car and engine hard you have to expect that at some point it will fail. How often do race cars have their engines re-built (Somberg?  ) and for all intenses that is what your car has been used for.


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## mark r (Feb 17, 2003)

*AT LAST*

Someone With an answer near the truth. 4 years of track action is a lot for anything to take, regardless off maintenance. 
The only self learning function on a power fc is the duty cycle on the boost controller were fitted. Everything else has "Flash Memory". so cannot be altered without input.

Sorry Peter. But it looks like Human Error.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Cord,

I've never said that the main cause of the failure was down the corruption or change in the settings but I do believe that they may have contributed to it. Excessive fuelling and excessive det. must have had an effect.

With regard to the oil contamination, I've yet to send a sample of the oil in the engine off to RP for testing but as that's been sitting there for over a month and as it was only in the car for around 100 miles I doubt that testing it will produce much useful info anyway. However, I do intend asking for more opinions on this aspect as whilst I trust RP, I think that a few more opinions wouldn't go amiss plus, as I posted a few pages back, I still feel that the last sample wasn't taken properly and may not have been representitive of the whole.

Anyway, the PFC issue still intrigues me and having seen the properties of another PFC map this evening, I am hopeful that at least this issue can be put to bed this week....


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## Emre (Nov 26, 2001)

Well... The strangest thing happenned to me yesterday.

After a long drive of 2 hours, i arrived to my destination and switched the car off. Roughly 3 hours later, hopped back in the car, turned the key and it fired but was running very rough. Checked the settings with the hand controller and found out that the FC totally reset itself. All the settings were back to their factory default settings.

I bought this unit new about 6 months ago and was using an older model for 12 months prior to it; nothing like this happened before.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Anyway......

Enough PFC shaming, its a good ECU for the money, and it is pretty cheap when compared to the more complicated Motec, HKS FCON etc. I have heard from a few people now that its not perfect.

WHAT I REALLY WANT TO KNOW IS:

What are you up to Peter, whats happening with your engine, what Kind of rebuild are you doing? I keep checking this thread to see but.....  

Anthony.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

I can, hand on heart, say that I honestly don't know Anthony. One minute I've got it set in my mind what to do then I read something else or somebody suggests something else and I'm off again, wondering wtf to do.  

Currently, I'm swayed towards buying a new engine, N1 or Nur, putting a Tomei baffled sump on, sticking that in with my 2510s or may be some GT SS's running at 1.2 bar then taking my time to rebuild my old engine with some more goodies then probably selling the new engine on in a few months time... but that's today.

It appears that it isn't possible to obtain dates from the PFC as it doesn't have an internal clock nor, although this is purely a guess, would it seem appropriate that the PFC would store dates internally... I'll email Mario to see if he knows, unless you're reading this...?


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## St Andy (Apr 22, 2003)

Peter, sorry to hear of your engine failure, everyones worst nightmare 

After reading the thread I hear what you are saying about the power fc etc. 
But this type of failure is surely inevitable with hard tuning, and hard driving. Even though you have cared for your car religeously, oil changes etc. Would this help simple metal fatigue.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Of course Andy, that's why I keep saying that I'm not blaming the failure completely on the PFC being altered but I still maintain that it had a part to play plus, and I keep saying this too, I don't want it to happen again if it transpires that it's a problem with the PFC itself, which I'm still convinced that it is not (if that makes sense ). Plus, it is not a nice thought to think that somebody has messed wiv me bits!

Anyway, plan 29 is now underway....


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Andy,

You have missed the obvious bit.............

Peters car is red, and God doesnt like red vehicles unless they are made in Italy, or go neee naaawwww !!!

If it were blue (especially certain shades  ) it would probably still be working.    

J.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

just like yours eh bladey?????


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

That was for Pete not you !!!    

LOL

J.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Right, bullet has been bitten....

Nur spec engine will be ordered today. This has a very similar spec to the Nissan N1 engine (N1 block, N1 pistons, rods, water pump, etc...) except it comes with weight balanced pistons and rods, good for up to 1.6 bar. To this I'll be fitting a Tomei sump baffle kit, HKS steel head, intake and exhaust gaskets and a Nismo oil pump. I'll be putting most of my other parts on it too such as the 2510s, elbows, cams, etc.

Once I've finished doing that, we'll swap the engines and once we've had a look at the damage to mine, I'll take a view on rebuilding it or stripping it for any serviceable parts. If it's viable to rebuild it, the plan is to swap it with the Nur engine and sell that on although that may a difficult thing to do come the crunch. 

Well that's the plan as at 9.19am on 20.1.04.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Sounds cool 

so it's 9.21 now - what the new plan  
 

Simon


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Ask me this afternoon Simon...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Just to publicly thank Gio, Dave and Dino, 'our' men in Japan for all their help trying to source the right engine for me. I've gone a different route now but nonetheless, I am extremely grateful for all their time, effort and advice, it's a great place this...


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

No problem Peter. Glad to have been of some service


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter said:


> *Ask me this afternoon Simon...   *


Do I detect a touch of Andre here? With a dose of RodB rebuilding. 

I can fully recommend his rear screens! 

DaveG


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Nope, wrong Dave, it was a very attractive option but rather than risk (albeit a tiny risk) a s/h engine, I went for new in the end.  

I had hoped that there would be a large Nur shaped birthday pressie sitting downstairs for me this morning but instead, 'all' I got a was a box of 12 mystery reds from the Times Wine Club...  

Nur has now been ordered and paid for, it should be with me in around 10 days time. I've started stripping mine now, intake off, sundry cables and pipes off, cams out, should get the head off tonight, turbos early next week....

Gold and red go alright together don't they?


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## polarbearit (Dec 1, 2001)

Peter said:


> *Gold and red go alright together don't they?  *


Franky no... 

I'd be interested in your finding about engine costs/availability.

Cheers,


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

So, no further with the PFC issue, nobody is sticking their hand up either. Do I go with my PFC or not and put the last one down to human error or, hopefully not, spite? As the consensus is that it wasn't a problem with the PFC, I guess I'll stick with it....


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## NoNothin (Aug 6, 2003)

Yours sounds like a very unusual case, the PFC seems highly regarded.

However if you're not happy with the PFC then there is little point in keeping it. You may find yourself constantly wondering wether it is changing all its settings or doing something untoward and this would spoil the enjoyment of the car.

One option is to sell the PFC and get a HKS FCon V pro, you should get a few hundred notes for the PFC.

This could well mean using a different tuner (at least for the mapping) as you need to find a HKS dealer with the dongle key and software. Again this might not be such a bad idea as you need to have confidence the car has been mapped correctly.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Peter, I have to say if it were me I would be VERY dubious about keeping the PFC. 

not knowing for certain that it was error/human error/or sabotage, I don't think I woul dbe inclined to trust it again. espcially considering the costs if it went wrong again.

unfortunatly I don't think that there are a heap of options to choose from as alternatives.

I don't envy you at all at the minute..... 

Simon


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

NoNothin said:


> *Yours sounds like a very unusual case, the PFC seems highly regarded.*


 Well, I don't actually think so as I am 99.9% convinced that the unit is OK and the changes were made by somebody known to me. There's a long story behind it which I'd love to go into here but for obvious reasons, I can't, well not at the moment anyway, I enjoy being an admin here too much!!



NoNothin said:


> *One option is to sell the PFC and get a HKS FCon V pro, you should get a few hundred notes for the PFC.*


 Lol, who's going to buy it now!!



NoNothin said:


> *This could well mean using a different tuner (at least for the mapping) as you need to find a HKS dealer with the dongle key and software. Again this might not be such a bad idea as you need to have confidence the car has been mapped correctly.*


 Oooh, if only I could comment on that one!



NoNothin said:


> * Good luck with whatever you decide. *


Thanks. 

Simon,

Yes, it is difficult, do I trust £7ks worth of new kit to a 'dodgy' ecu....?


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Thats a big risk, quite honestly for £600 and peace of mind I would buy another PFC.

Anthony.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Well yes Anthony but you know what's it's like, it just never ends does it. Honestly makes you question your own sanity sometimes.

Now where's the nearest Porsche dealer...


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I know exactly what its like. You could never stop spending...... ...Porsche, the boring easy option...


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

Peter said:


> *Now where's the nearest Porsche dealer...  *


Where exactly do you live Peter ?


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter,
I can see your logic here about sticking with the PFC.

There are sufficient PFC's being used around the planet I would have thought to throw up several reports of "PFC self changed data" if that was possible. So it seems reasonable to discount your experience as a consequence of "PFC design" error.

So if the PFC is OK generically, that moves us to your own specific unit. 

Has it failed or is failing? Well if it failed, once broken it does not recover which would be self evident, so we can discount that. 

Is it failing? That is, not gone, but on its way? 

Well several people I believe have now had a look at and tested your unit and none I presume have said there is anything wrong with it, other than the "map data". I also presume the new map wasn't a default configuration either. The "working" status of your PFC is also re-enforced by the fact that your car continued to run.

Reams of this thread has covered the possibility regarding faulty memory devices and "random" memory changes which could still come up with a viable map configuration. We can argue forever about what randomness can and cannot do. For my 10pence worth (aided with a degree in Electronics) that whilst its true, you can get lets call it "spiked" memory changes and you could get a little lucky that the new data is "valid", your "new" map bounds on the extra-ordinary and the probability odds must be astronomical. Others may disagree, they are entitled to their opinion, this is mine. 

Again, I would also say, if this "spiking" has happened to yours, why has no one else experienced it? My considered opinion? Because it has not and does not happen.

So in summary, the PFC is OK, the source of the change was external and probably human.  

Based on this hypothesis, the question now is who, when and possibly why. 

With respect to "who", well that can only be any person(s) who have had access to your car. Assuming you don't generally leave it parked up everywhere unlocked  you can narrow down the possibilities. Further, given that the changes must be relatively recent(?) otherwise you would have noticed it, you can narrow matters further as you know where the car has been.

DaveG

*Edited for the sake of forum harmony. 
Peter.*


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

About 15 minutes from the local Porsche dealer Andre, Rivervale of Brighton... I think that while it's a smoother and may be less frustrating road to get there, it's even more expensive than the road to my garage! 

Btw, thanks for all your advice too over the past few weeks, I'm grateful to you.


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## somberg (Jun 27, 2001)

My pleasure Peter. Hope it'll work out for you !


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Peter said:


> *About 15 minutes from the local Porsche dealer Andre, Rivervale of Brighton... I think that while it's a smoother and may be less frustrating road to get there, it's even more expensive than the road to my garage!
> 
> Btw, thanks for all your advice too over the past few weeks, I'm grateful to you.  *


The Porker regional HQ, with showroom has opened up in Burgess Hill, Peter. Assuming you test drove every model in turn for a week at a time you should be covered until the 33 is back on the road...... 
DaveG


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Due to circumstances beyond our control, this thread is now closed!


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