# ARP 2000 or L19?



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Need to buy my head and main studs, any experienced issues with ARP2000 bolts? Also it worth spending the extra on L19 spec?

FInally what is the deal with the mains, I have read in a few places that one of the main end studs need to be modified ?


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

What's wrong with the oem mains bolts ?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

DazGTR said:


> What's wrong with the oem mains bolts ?


There is nothing wrong with them. They are that good that Nissan themselves recommend them. I mean, if they were sub standard then Nissan would not affiliate their name with them.

All these things are like the Emperors now clothes. Lol

A good example. A guy on here runs a 1/4 mile in an R35, fits HKS dump valves, runs another 1/4 mile with the same time. Its soo apparent there are soo many 'tune up' parts that are of no benefit to the end user. 

Save your money dude.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

I know oem are fine I was I was wondering why FRacer feels he needs to change them as I ain't heard any that fail ... But I know what your saying about brand labelling I was reading a topic about cambelts which is another perfect example


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

DazGTR said:


> I know oem are fine I was I was wondering why FRacer feels he needs to change them as I ain't heard any that fail ... But I know what your saying about brand labelling I was reading a topic about cambelts which is another perfect example


Lol. I am just getting cynical in my old age.

You are 100% right.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

Me too lol


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Sometimes it is cheaper to buy the studs compared to oem bolts from Nissan. I am not reusing my 20 year bolts.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

Why not ?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

FRRACER said:


> Sometimes it is cheaper to buy the studs compared to oem bolts from Nissan. I am not reusing my 20 year bolts.


Why not? The material is 4.5 billion years old which ever bolt/studs you buy.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

When you use a head bolt and torque it down, due to the design of the head bolt it has to be rotated in order to engage the threads and secure it, doing this creates a twisting force and a clamping force which means that when the cylinders begin accumulating the load, the bolt will stretch and twist. Basically because the bolt has to react to two different forces simultaneously, its capacity to secure the head is slightly reduced and forms a less reliable seal in higher powered engines. 

A head stud however can be tightened into place without any direct clamping force applied through the tightening process. The nut provides the clamping force rather than the torque of the fastner itslef, therefore the rotational force is avoided entirely. 

In my opinion while the engine is apart buy the ARP head studs and also the mains, go for the ARP 2000 as they are very good. If in future you have to remove the head again, you will not have to replace the ARP studs and can re-use them. 

For the sake of £150 odd upgrade to the studs.. I'm not sure on the modification required to one of the mains as you have stated perhaps calling a reputable RB engine builder will help you.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Saifskyline said:


> When you use a head bolt and torque it down, due to the design of the head bolt it has to be rotated in order to engage the threads and secure it, doing this creates a twisting force and a clamping force which means that when the cylinders begin accumulating the load, the bolt will stretch and twist. Basically because the bolt has to react to two different forces simultaneously, its capacity to secure the head is slightly reduced and forms a less reliable seal in higher powered engines.
> 
> A head stud however can be tightened into place without any direct clamping force applied through the tightening process. The nut provides the clamping force rather than the torque of the fastner itslef, therefore the rotational force is avoided entirely.
> 
> ...


LMFAO.

Hell, if you think your are buying 'insurance' for and extra £150, you crack on. 
You kid yourself you need them, you buy them. Lol


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

So if what your saying is true then every bolt that gets torqued down stretches so that would include the oil pump bolts and the water pump bolts also the flywheel bolts too infact every bolt on the engine ??? Oem mains bolts are not stretch bolts


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

DazGTR said:


> So if what your saying is true then every bolt that gets torqued down stretches so that would include the oil pump bolts and the water pump bolts also the flywheel bolts too infact every bolt on the engine ??? Oem mains bolts are not stretch bolts


To what torque do those bolts get torqued down to? Not as much as the head bolts. 

What loads do those bolts get subjected to? not much, the head bolts however have to put up with alot.

It's up to him if he wants to swap out the bolts for new studs lol


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

An M12 12.9 tensile bolt stretches **** all at 50n/m.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

Oem mains 46-52 Nm


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

And ARP bolts are only 9% higher in tensile strength than standard.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

APR studs are torqued to 80nm for some reason. So you must get more block distortion with ARP studs. Of course you should hone the bearing surfaces with the girdle torqued up before fitting the shells.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

Saifskyline said:


> To what torque do those bolts get torqued down to? Not as much as the head bolts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He's only changing the mains and tbh as 32combat says at 50 Nm they won't stretch besides the 20 odd year old cast cradle is likely to give up the ghost first


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

DazGTR said:


> He's only changing the mains and tbh as 32combat says at 50 Nm they won't stretch besides the 20 odd year old cast cradle is likely to give up the ghost first


he said hes changing the head bolts too? Either way bolts are just as good, but the head bolts should not be re-used, and I would personally just swap them out with new studs if the engine is apart.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> APR studs are torqued to 80nm for some reason. So you must get more block distortion with ARP studs. Of course you should hone the bearing surfaces with the girdle torqued up before fitting the shells.


Some honda engine builders have noticed that when using ARP mains and after torquing them down, it causes all the mains caps to go out of round,therefore requiring a line hone while torqued down with the ARP studs.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

My bad he did I miss read that bit sorry... I run arp head studs only because they were only £20 more than oem nissan and the fact you can reuse them but it's not worth replacing the mains I didnt


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

DazGTR said:


> My bad he did I miss read that bit sorry... I run arp head studs only because they were only £20 more than oem nissan and the fact you can reuse them but it's not worth replacing the mains I didnt


It's alright :thumbsup:, its up to the op if he wants to replace the mains or not I guess.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

Yes and if he's got the money to throw at it then go ahead but there has been arp mains stud failure reports on rb26 so its pot luck really


And I'm a firm believer if I'm wrong I'll admit it so no problem


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Saifskyline said:


> Some honda engine builders have noticed that when using ARP mains and after torquing them down, it causes all the mains caps to go out of round,therefore requiring a line hone while torqued down with the ARP studs.


You spend £150 on posh studs, another £150 on inline honing if you know you need to do it. It does not mention that on the ARP website though. Again, they are selling you something as a direct replacement where as actually they might not be. You might be causing more issues than you 'think' you are solving.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> You spend £150 on posh studs, another £150 on inline honing if you know you need to do it. It does not mention that on the ARP website though. Again, they are selling you something as a direct replacement where as actually they might not be. You might be causing more issues than you 'think' you are solving.


I agree, but ARP studs have caused mains to go out of round over on the Honda-Tech forums engine builds as they have to have more torque..


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Saifskyline said:


> I agree, but ARP studs have caused mains to go out of round over on the Honda-Tech forums engine builds as they have to have more torque..


The ARP studs are tightened with an extra 30nm over stock figures. 

I guess we both know its not that simple but its certainly good to hear other likeminded persons on here.

Peace out brother.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> The ARP studs are tightened with an extra 30nm over stock figures.
> 
> I guess we both know its not that simple but its certainly good to hear other likeminded persons on here.
> 
> Peace out brother.


Haha I'm a UNI student, learned this all through engineering and my dad :thumbsup: peace.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Saifskyline said:


> Haha I'm a UNI student, learned this all through engineering and my dad :thumbsup: peace.


An engine is all about mechanics, materials and thermodynamics NOT branded products and sales bullshit. Lol


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> An engine is all about mechanics, materials and thermodynamics NOT branded products and sales bullshit. Lol


Lol, you're correct there.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I am changing both, head bolt and mains. I am amazed my question has turned into a big farce lol. As the mains have said to need some kind of mod I asked about this. I have used head studs before on a previous engine and prefer to use them. I will be going for high rpm so why not? Maybe the mains do not really need them and std bolts will be fine, but what is wrong in changing bolts as precaution?

On race cars key items have a age/life, for example, I have all the suspension NAS bolts changed every season or after a knock or crash where the wishbone is damaged. They may look fine, but I would not want to go out or send someone out in the car only for the suspension give and have a massive crash.

R32Combat, I was not asking for a lecture on why I should not use head studs and why oem bolts will do just fine. I have created a spec on my engine build and I was simply asking about the difference between the two stud types. 

If I wanted branded shit I would have gone for more expensive Tomei items on both head and mains but that said I know ARP are decent bolts and they probably supply Tomei as well. If I was a mug to buy £150 posh studs, I would make sure I would buy them from a source that is selling them at a decent price not like some people spending way OTT on artificially inflated prices to line up greedy retailers coffers.

As for mains, you cannot compare the Honda engine to a RB, is the Honda engine they spoke about a cast iron block like the RB with a girdle? or is it an aluminium block with separate caps? If things were going out of round I am sure Tomei would have mentioned that with their kits. 

I am sure Tomei know more about this than all of us here and would not create something that would fail or make things worse.


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## DazGTR (Dec 5, 2007)

And my original question was what's wrong with oem ? Why do you feel nissan oem mains are crap


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

That's cool. You have created a spec for your engine and you know the maximum combustion pressure and you know that 12.9 bolt are not strong enough. 
The whole point is you are looking to buy something that you do not know you need. Therefore you will not get any useful advise.

For instance, if you had a turbocharger requirement but could not read compressor maps I could help you down select a turbo that meets your spec.


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## Saifskyline (May 19, 2013)

Just buy the mains and head stud kit and be done with it. Ring up MGT, RK Tuning, RB Motorsport etc and confirm with them about the mains.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I will


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

R32 Combat said:


> That's cool. You have created a spec for your engine and you know the maximum combustion pressure and you know that 12.9 bolt are not strong enough.
> The whole point is you are looking to buy something that you do not know you need. Therefore you will not get any useful advise.
> 
> For instance, if you had a turbocharger requirement but could not read compressor maps I could help you down select a turbo that meets your spec.


You have your way of doing things fair play but your views do not agree with mine, not just about head or main studs but many things you have posted about. Enjoy your day


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

A good article on bolts vs studs!

Mr Combat, Instead of moaning about studs offer no benefit over OEM bolts and there is no difference, people are brand whores blah blah.. if you really wanted to be cleaver and make yourself come out as a technical expert you should have detailed your comments as per the below article.

Head Bolts vs. Head Studs

As for the Turbo efficiency map reading, thanks but no thanks, I know how to read it and understand what I am looking at


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

When my engine was stripped down it had L19 rod bolts, I had them removed for arp2000 as arp say the material absorbes moisture and can cause the bolts failing. They should not be cleaned with any fluid, they should be taken straight out of pack and fitted. That was enough info for me they were replaced with arp 2000.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Thank you Dan, that was useful  I will be going for the 2000 bolts.


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## Dan ep3 turbo (Sep 29, 2013)

FRRACER said:


> Thank you Dan, that was useful  I will be going for the 2000 bolts.


No worries mate if you search on google you will find it all about the L19 bolts. Most tunners use nissan main bolts I think


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## Smiffy415 (Jan 15, 2014)

FRRACER said:


> A good article on bolts vs studs!
> 
> Mr Combat, Instead of moaning about studs offer no benefit over OEM bolts and there is no difference, people are brand whores blah blah.. if you really wanted to be cleaver and make yourself come out as a technical expert you should have detailed your comments as per the below article.
> 
> ...


That link was an interesting read, cheers mate.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

FRRACER said:


> A good article on bolts vs studs!
> 
> Mr Combat, Instead of moaning about studs offer no benefit over OEM bolts and there is no difference, people are brand whores blah blah.. if you really wanted to be cleaver and make yourself come out as a technical expert you should have detailed your comments as per the below article.
> 
> ...


There is a fundamental reason why studs benefit bolts that is not mentioned in this arrival. And the reason not mentioned is the main reason to use them.

And why do you then ARP advise not to use a competitor? I mean, really? Ask a metallurgist about hardened steel absorbing moisture.


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