# HAKOSUKA, KPGC-10, how to buy/retore a replica Hako - fact thread.



## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Thought it would be a good idea to make a thread about this, as many peeps are confused about the howl classic Skyline car range and many more other would love to purchase such cars straight away.

Before some experts correct me on the original Hakosuka facts, I will give my best to resume for the newbies and people who share interests in these cars.

This thread should be a fountain of knowledge in a way people can see the clear difference between the original Skyline GTR HAKOSUKA KPGC-10 and the lower model range look a like Skylines of this generation. 

The reason we want to talk about all this in this way, is that the real GTR HAKOSUKA is such a rare and expensive car, it is not really worth waisting too much time talking about it in this thread. Used cars cost up to 150.000$ (yes no typing error) and rarer then Ferrari Enzos. . . so not the type of cars most people on here will ever own or want to know how to restore or tune. 
If people want to talk about the real Hakosukas, please make a different thread.



OK here we go:










*
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE between the "HAKOSUKA GTR" and the lower same looking Skylines?*

HAKOSUKA GTR:


> 1st generation (1969-1972)
> First generation 1972 Nissan Skyline GT-R coupe
> Production 1969-1972
> Body style 4-door sedan
> ...


Lower Models C-10 Skylines:


> The C10 series of 1968, which began its development under Prince at the company's Ogikubo R&D centre in the suburbs of Tokyo, was marketed with a Nissan badge. By the time the C10 went on sale, the Prince nameplate had been completely phased out on cars and trucks. The dealer network selling the cars became the Prince channel of Nissan, and the marketing group stayed at the Prince headquarters in Mita instead of moving to Nissan's headquarters in Ginza. The C10 Skyline was launched with Prince's 1.5 L OHC G15 I4 like the S57. A 1.8 L G18 version was also available.
> 
> A station wagon variant, known previously as the Prince Skyway, was offered with this generation. A hardtop coupé was introduced in October 1970.
> 2000GT-X
> ...


*
To resume all this: *

So the C-10s, most of you guys would look for, would be the GC10 2000GT coupes. They have the L20 engine with 120HP, the coupe was produced from 1970 onwards.
The GTR had the S20 engine and drivetrain with far more HP (160) and potential. 

*So do the GC10 2000GT Skylines look the same as the GTR?*
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No they didn't! The GTR had rear over arch fenders, different bumper trims and interior trims, as well as different wheels. But its far more easy to simply bolt on GTR bodyparts and make your 2000GT look like the GTR, then its to make a R34 GTT look like a R34 GTR!

Below are a few pics of actual none-GTR GC10 Skylines with GTR looks:


















*OK, where do I get one and in what condition?*
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You may be lucky to get your hands on a already imported 2000GT in your country, but thats a rare thing. So eventually you will have to look towards importing from japan, where you can find 5-15 specialized classic cars shops who sell these cars and can give you feedback on spare/tuning parts and restorations.
We can talk in death who does what in this thread after

*How do 2000GT feel, are they as easy to drive as my 2011 Audi A3 auto.?*
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Tell yourself that driving a modern car is easy and even your child can do it if you show how its done . . . driving a classic car like a 1970 2000GT is a complete different horse, its a toy for men and not boys obsessed with HP and 0-100kph sprints.
Here are some surprises you will face:
- No power Steering, hello parking.
- No A/C, hello summer.
- No modern suspension, hello bumps.
- No modern breaks, hello trees, walls, cats, people.
- No electronic helps, hello window lever. (yes you need to use your hand to turn)
- No precise gearbox, hello shift miss, hello repairs.
- No big power, hello 99,99% of the people on the street taking you over

But don't let all this put you down, the 2000GT feels like it has 200HP and sounds like a real muscle car if you ad a custome exhaust. Its a real experience and involves you with the mechanics in a passionate way, . . . if you are a man, you know how to appreciate these things.

*God I am desperate, the pussy I am wouldn't stand long driving such an old car!*
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Relax, its not that dramatic as many people long before in the 80. have tuned a swapped engines mechanics on 2000GTs in order to make them more potent and reliable.
This has to do with the fact that in the 80. (bubble years in japan) japanese people were the most rich people on the planet, money wasn't a big obstacle for any crazy dreams. many 2000GTs therefore have swapped engine, missions and mechanics from the pre/post 1980s Fairladys like the S30 ad S130s.
So many 2000GTs come with the much more powerfull L26 and L28 engines producing between 160 and 170HP and more torque then the GTRS20. Many have been bored to 3L and can produce over 200HP. Putting open throttle bodies on these engines is what makes such GTR replicas great sounding monsters.

Then you may also look at even more modern mechanics swapped in to 2000GTs, some tuners in japan offer 2000GTs with RB20DE engines tuned over 200HP with throttle bodies up to single Turbo 800HP RB26DETT swaps. Some come even with A/C. But don't get too excited about this for the prices these cars fetch you can buy an R35 GTR or two R34 GTRs:nervous:

*Conditions and tuning:*
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They are old cars and tend to be in horrible condition. Many classic car dealers in japan tend to ask ass money for reliable restored ones. However can you find many 2000GTs in not too bad condition for reasonable prices.

*Prices in japan overview:*
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KPGC10 GTR HAKOSUKA = approx. 15.000.000Yen

GC10 2000GT in drivable condition = 1.800.000Yen upwards

GC10 with old tune L28 engine likes = 2.000.000Yen upwards

GC10 with full modern mechanics (RB engines,ex . . .) = over 5.000.000Yen





OK thats it, post your facts, thoughts and experiences, so we can have a great thread worth a sticky after a few pages



Chris


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

Nice to see a thread for these. As we are restoring our KGC10 2000GTX we will add to this when possible.


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## Nigel-Power (Dec 16, 2009)

lorrrrrrrvely, really wish I onwn one one day.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

gtrlux said:


> Before some experts correct me on the original Hakosuka facts.....


The very _last_ thing we want is "some experts" turning up, isn't it? 

Oh dear, too late.....



gtrlux said:


> If people want to talk about the real Hakosukas, please make a different thread.


You're already confusing the issue. You make it sound as though only the PGC10 and KPGC10 are 'Hakosukas', when in fact the vernacular 'Box Skyline' description applies to the whole C10-series Skyline range, not _just_ the GT-R models. So anybody who has any variant of C10-series Skyline ( including the four banger short wheelbase C10s and even the VC10 wagon ) has a _"real Hakosuka"_...... 

I'm sure you mean well Chris, but this thread has the potential to be an example of the partially-sighted leading the blind at the very best. We have had other threads that contain plenty of hard facts, and any attempt to better them will probably just end up duplicating them. What seems to happen is that a few people post their _"I will own one one day"_ vows, we all admire some photos pinched off the internet, and not a lot else happens. With the exchange rate the way it is at the moment, that's not likely to change any time soon.

If this thread is some kind of preamble to a business proposition ( the "I can source one for you" offer can't be far off from _somebody_....  ) then you might want to revise your GC10 price level quotations up a little to avoid leading too many gullible people into temptation. 

If I were you, I'd leave English-language C10-series specialised discussion to a specialist forum like japanesenostalgiccar.com rather than try to make it happen out of context on gtr.co.uk. 


Alan T.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

PS30-SB said:


> The very _last_ thing we want is "some experts" turning up, isn't it?
> 
> Oh dear, too late.....
> 
> ...


I was waiting for you Alan . . thanks for the input, but I think we diserve a shot here. Its not only for the english speaking folks thought, most peeps I have in mind on gtr.co.uk who may jump on used classic Skylines in the near future are not from the UK, but defo many UK enthusiats will appreciate.

You are right with the Hakosuka thing, as it is a name for all of them, but I was a step ahead of you here, as I considered the mistake we/everyone does when refering to "THE HAKOSUKA" 99% of the time. This sounds like there is only one car out there and most peeps think of that real GTR, when in fact its ment for the howl range generation of C-10s. . . . but as most peeps don't know that there is even a range of C-10s, I wanted to focus on the 2000GT, without refering constantly to Hako, not to confuse more.

I disagree with prices mate, L20 2000GTs have droped dramaticly and even if conditions are unknown, many of these C-10s end up on the market now, do to japanese people needing cash. Its a dramatic situation at the moment in japan and I suspect we will see many more 2000GTs pop up soon for clear sub-2million Yen prices. Also the change makes the prices more attractive now again, do to the Bank of japan intervention in to the currency.

Please mate I believe in your determination.

Buying a 2000GT with a L26engine in medium condition, getting that car a bit preped up by a serious shop in japan is still in most peoples pockets. Clear we talk about 20-25k £ here, but thats far from 50-150k C-10 GTRs or RB swaped full demo Hakos.


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

gtrlux said:


> I disagree with prices mate, L20 2000GTs have droped dramaticly and even if conditions are unknown, many of these C-10s end up on the market now, do to japanese people needing cash. Its a dramatic situation at the moment in japan and I suspect we will see many more 2000GTs pop up soon for clear sub-2million Yen prices. Also the change makes the prices more attractive now again, do to the Bank of japan intervention in to the currency.
> 
> Buying a 2000GT with a L26engine in medium condition, getting that car a bit preped up by a serious shop in japan is still in most peoples pockets. Clear we talk about 20-25k £ here......


Exactly. 2 million JPY is still north of 14.5k GBP for a car _that's still in Japan_. In my experience, people will still plump for the _cheapest_ end of the market ( it's human nature ) and they will likely end up with something that needs a fair bit of work. If it's still got its L20A engine they are likely to be unimpressed with its level of performance, and hence starts a domino-theory round of knock-on modifications ( transmission, diff, driveshafts, brakes etc etc ) and a steep learning curve of Nissan L-gata engine tuning.

It's a recipe for negative equity in most cases, I'm afraid. You could well end up with - as you yourself point out - 20~25k GBP in a _custom car_ that people will ask an incredulous "_HOW_ much..!!!???" if you need to turn it back into money. It's the same reason you're not seeing many other 'classic' sixties and seventies Japanese cars being imported right now. People _like_ them sure enough, even profess to _covet_ them, but generally speaking they don't want to pay the amount that a good one costs....


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

PS30-SB said:


> Exactly. 2 million JPY is still north of 14.5k GBP for a car _that's still in Japan_. In my experience, people will still plump for the _cheapest_ end of the market ( it's human nature ) and they will likely end up with something that needs a fair bit of work. If it's still got its L20A engine they are likely to be unimpressed with its level of performance, and hence starts a domino-theory round of knock-on modifications ( transmission, diff, driveshafts, brakes etc etc ) and a steep learning curve of Nissan L-gata engine tuning.
> 
> It's a recipe for negative equity in most cases, I'm afraid. You could well end up with - as you yourself point out - 20~25k GBP in a _custom car_ that people will ask an incredulous "_HOW_ much..!!!???" if you need to turn it back into money. It's the same reason you're not seeing many other 'classic' sixties and seventies Japanese cars being imported right now. People _like_ them sure enough, even profess to _covet_ them, but generally speaking they don't want to pay the amount that a good one costs....


Agree, but thats what I try to change with this thread, as a Hako will be my next Skyline as I have owned them all just not this one and a Kenmeri.
The classic car scene in europe for japanese oldtimers is great and peeps are craving for such cars . . . many import bloody expensive Toyota Crowns and Toyota 2000GTs, as these cars have been traded more often in the last decades, also via the US.

I need to pay you some beers to kick that pessimism and frustration out of you Alan


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

We are in the process of manufacturing replacment wings, bonnet and arch kits for the KGC10. Not much of a market now but we are gearing up for the future market, albeit a small one.

We had considered installing an RB into the car but as our car has its original factory engine with some tune up goodies I've gone soft and decided to keep that engine in the car. We will simply rebuild the engine.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

I want one of these:


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## Taven888 (Mar 30, 2011)

First one i seen was in fast 5. (wat a film)


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## nozza1 (Jan 13, 2007)

PS30-SB said:


> The very _last_ thing we want is "some experts" turning up, isn't it?
> 
> Oh dear, too late.....
> 
> ...


Whoop ther it is!

Killed it!


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## MrGT (Jul 6, 2009)

i'd love an old skyline to restore its wat i do for a living allbeit on 60's uk cars but still restoration is restoration. how much are we talking for a shell (not a gtr but one of the similar looking skylines?
i like the idea of a N\A Rb25 or similar in one, fit twin webbers and 3inch trumpets it would sound awesome and still have some go in it :thumbsup: for trying to pool all the forum's knowledge on these awesome cars in one thread.

@ davew out of intrest how do you see prices going for these? what would you consider a fair price on an early skyline (not gtr model but similar shaped)

Tib


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

MrGT said:


> i'd love an old skyline to restore its wat i do for a living allbeit on 60's uk cars but still restoration is restoration. how much are we talking for a shell (not a gtr but one of the similar looking skylines?
> i like the idea of a N\A Rb25 or similar in one, fit twin webbers and 3inch trumpets it would sound awesome and still have some go in it :thumbsup: for trying to pool all the forum's knowledge on these awesome cars in one thread.
> 
> @ davew out of intrest how do you see prices going for these? what would you consider a fair price on an early skyline (not gtr model but similar shaped)
> ...


Hiya Tib

thanks for your interest, the answer is not simple. You see these cars fetching all sorts of money and if you cant personally view it is alway a risk. I have seen cars that have been restored that are simply amazing, likewise absolutely aweful!

When buying such an old car the risk is always high unless you have a specialist buyer. I recently noticed a white kgc10 with nice mods been offered about. However, to my eyes it looked like a rotter, i could see issues on the sills, doors, 1/4's and much more!!!! It was being offered at £15000 FOB, so add shipping, duty and VAT and its over £20,000 and needing restoration. It took us over a year to buy ours.

We can help anyone source one of these cars but you really need to go into it with your eyes wide open and be prepared to spend alot of money either way, be it a perfect example or a model needing restoration.

Our own car is 1 owner, low miles, and in very good order and we will still be spending £1000's to get it to a level that im happy with.... but you know how picky i am LOL!

PM me if you want, but please be serious with your intent to purchase as I cant ask my buyers to zip around Japan to source cars for free.

We can either ship directly to you or to our workshops for restoration, registration.

Alan has suggested a great forum for reference to these wonderful classics, go and take a peek at it.


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

about time we got this going again??


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## YokoAE86 (May 23, 2007)

davew said:


> about time we got this going again??


Definetely.

Geez, should of bought one 4-5 yrs ago with the weak Yen, compared to today.


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

Hey up!!!

And we've added a nice talking point picci too!


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## MrGT (Jul 6, 2009)

davew said:


> Hey up!!!
> 
> And we've added a nice talking point picci too!


I really like that, would have to be a track only car buy i would have it.

Still think my next skyline will be a classic one, always looking on every site for a rolling shell to build my way. Big money though even for wreckers.


Tib


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

MrGT said:


> I really like that, would have to be a track only car buy i would have it.
> 
> Still think my next skyline will be a classic one, always looking on every site for a rolling shell to build my way. Big money though even for wreckers.
> 
> ...


we have one coming into stock:smokin:


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

time to bump up some lovely old school threads............................ and awaken you know who LOL!


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

LOL.......gtrlux.......now THERE's a name from the past :chuckle:

Sometimes (usually when I'm very drunk) I miss his rantings and nonsense!!


TT


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## Babalouie (Feb 18, 2009)

Nothing much to add from my end...except that a few of the more recent Hakos sold out of Japan have been pretty shocking (and also shockingly expensive too).


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

Babalouie said:


> Nothing much to add from my end...except that a few of the more recent Hakos sold out of Japan have been pretty shocking (and also shockingly expensive too).


yep Ive seen the postings on facebook and JNC


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## YokoAE86 (May 23, 2007)

I came across this interesting video about Rocky Autos. Fascinating.

Rocky Auto - Like You've NEVER SEEN! Rusty Skylines & Fairladys - YouTube


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## davew (Apr 28, 2003)

new years bumpoooooooooooronnie


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I would love one......but it would be mostly a tube framed silhouette with R32/34 running gear.
......bound to get flamed for that


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## PS30-SB (Jun 13, 2003)

Sub Boy said:


> ......bound to get flamed for that


Who by? Certainly not by me. 

I have no problem with lookalikes, replicas, 'tribute' cars, race cars, custom cars or tube-framed 'silhouette' cars with R32/34 running gear. Anything goes.

The only unwritten *rule* is that they need to be done _well_, and with _good taste_...


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

Sub Boy said:


> I would love one......but it would be mostly a tube framed silhouette with R32/34 running gear.
> ......bound to get flamed for that


Saw a Rocky Auto c110 running r32 engine and 4 wd. Thought it was rather cool really.


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

I spotted this tidy example not far from Milton Keynes yesterday.


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## Dave C (Mar 19, 2010)

barry P. said:


> I spotted this tidy example not far from Milton Keynes yesterday.



This belongs to my buddy Steve, nice car and goes surprisingly well for an old girl





























That will have been him up at Stony for the classic car show


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## barry P. (May 9, 2010)

Yes, it was at Stony. I was there in my R35. Does he live local to MK?


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