# Does Your Skyline Shuffle?



## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

After my car has had all its mods(mild for a Skyline)

It now shuffles  

No one warned me of this  

And apparently the best way of getting rid is no afm's

Which means more money which I haven't got

So this poll is to see who has shuffle, and any other stories

According to Andy M'hurst on a scale of 1-10, ten being the worst mine is a 4-5

And I shouldn't be such a pu$$y

I am running......

Front & Rear Upper Strutt Braces
Greddy Turbo Timer
Greddy Intercooler Hard Pipe Kit
Greddy Radiator Pipe
Greddy Air Diversion Plate
Greddy Oil Catch Tank
Mechanical Speedo Converter
Denso(HKS) Iridium Spark Plugs
Bespoke Down Pipes(Lagged) Equal Length
Bespoke Exhaust System 3" Stainless
HKS Triple Plate Clutch
HKS Headgasket Set 1.2mm
HKS Turbo's GTSS
HKS 680cc Injectors
HKS Stainless Elbows
HKS Hardpipe Kit
HKS 4" Intercooler (think its GT Model)
Apexi Power FC & Commander
Apexi Specific Boost Control For Power FC
Apexi Radiator Cap
Nismo Oil Cap
Nismo Low Temp. Thermostat
Nismo AFMS
Cusco Brake Stopper
Goodridge Stainless Brake Hose Kit
EBC Redstuff Pads
Splitfire Coil Packs
Walbro Fuel Pump
Skylab Torque Split Controller
Bespoke Stainless Battery Box
Bespoke Stainless Cool Air Wall
Full Re-Spray 

At 1.2 Bar 370/440 BHP

The next step is Cams & Pulleys and a bigger Radiator

I will post up pics when my car is painted in Sparkling Silver!

Meantime...who's doing the shuffle with me?


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## Shakey Finch (Jul 5, 2005)

That's like complaining that the Mars bar you've just bought tastes of milk chocolate.

What did you expect, it's normal with AFM's.


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Unfortunately for me.....

I wasn't born with instant Skyline knowledge


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## Dave_R1001 (Nov 24, 2002)

What is shuffle?


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Dave_R1001 said:


> What is shuffle?


are you being funny????


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

Shakey Finch said:


> That's like complaining that the Mars bar you've just bought tastes of milk chocolate.
> 
> What did you expect, it's normal with AFM's.


Maybe on poorly set up cars? I've driven my fair share of tuned GTRs over here and never had any shuffle...


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

DCD said:


> Maybe on poorly set up cars? I've driven my fair share of tuned GTRs over here and never had any shuffle...


Please look at the setup on my car...what is wrong then?

The list of mods, is at the start of the thread...


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## jasonchiu (Mar 8, 2006)

whoflungdung said:


> are you being funny????



i dont know either tell me


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

jasonchiu said:


> i dont know either tell me


OK from what i can gather that i have been told

In very basic terms

Turbo's spool, and if one spools quicker than the other out of sequence

The turbo's have a fight, and they shuffle between themselves

It is due to the inbalance of gas in the manifold(i think)

Someone else will explain this better, enter all you Guru's


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## Nismo LM LTD (Feb 16, 2005)

i agree with you DCD
i've never had any shuffle and driven more than my fair share of tuned GTR's

nice shiny engine bay


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## vennuth (Aug 2, 2001)

What in god's name are you prattling on about?!


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

Mine doesnt, still got AFMs


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

my abbey 1 bar R33 GTR chuff chuff panpipes

mook


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## Bajie (Dec 13, 2001)

I would have thought with equal length downpipes this would not happen as each turbo has its own route down the pipe.
At least that is what I interpreted through what I read.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

in addition

on the motorway

spool up about half boost and ease off the throttle gently

if you hear panpipes then thats shuffle


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## Robbie 733 (Feb 25, 2005)

I did have twins with AFM's (and it didn't) and I now have a single (and it does not) hope this helps ....


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

i think it all depends who,s mapped it.lets put it this way i had lots but not now R B MOTORSPORT has mapped it NISMOMAN


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## jae (Aug 28, 2002)

*Had some minor shuffle issues*

About 2/3 on a 10 scale. Only on long low inclines.

Now gone F-Con V Pro & AFM less. It still shuffles, but there is no impact on the performance.

So I have that characteristic chuckle with no downsides.


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

whoflungdung said:


> After my car has had all its mods(mild for a Skyline)
> 
> It now shuffles
> 
> ...


I dont know who`s doing the shuffle with you but ive wittled down the list above and i believe its the nismo oil cap. But then it could be the full repspay. Sorry but i couldn`t resist. 
On a serious note its probably down to the mapping, maybe:


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## Floyd (Dec 15, 2004)

I get turbo shuffle on light throttle openings, doesn't happen when I nail it.
I have AFM's, equal length down pipes, equal length collector pipe. I put it down to the design of my Tomei turbo's (big rotors in small housings).


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

jae said:


> About 2/3 on a 10 scale. Only on long low inclines.
> 
> Now gone F-Con V Pro & AFM less. It still shuffles, but there is no impact on the performance.
> 
> So I have that characteristic chuckle with no downsides.


I have very similar problems as to what you had

On an incline seems worse

Most of the time I can drive through the shuffle

But sometimes I have to lift off the accelerator as it will not pull through    

I dont have a problem with the noise, just when you cant go through it

And at constant speed on the motorway the car will jerk backwards and forwards   

So I am always fettling the accelerator pedal...not good for long journeys


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

One of the more common modifications is the use of HKS exhaust manifolds which have a balance pipe that joins between each of the two banks of three pipes.

The balance pipe equalises pressure when it starts to build in the manifold behind either turbine and stops 99% of shuffles.

Other issues can be unequal air fuel ratio burning differently, causing an imbalance of pressure and can be tinkered with by mapping.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

IT WAS MAPPED BY ABBEY (DAN0H) so he should know what he is doing......but it was mapped on a dyno not the road so there.....



> in addition
> 
> on the motorway
> 
> ...


thats not the shuffles that is the boost pressure being dumped from the turbo,s. All skylines do this when they have non std air filters fitted.

The shuffles is when the car will not pull though a certain revs area due to the AFM voltage ocisllating so badly the air fuel mixture and ignition readings are unstable and the car will not accelarate. Normal it is the BIGGER twin set up,s that are worse at this than small twins.

John you have a E-mail answering your questions. But I feel the S/H blowers may be the problem...


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Abbey M/S said:


> IT WAS MAPPED BY DAN0H so he should know what he is doing......but it was mappe don a dyno not the road so there.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


aaaah, In that case, my Abbey tuned, twin turbo'd with AFM's does NOT shuffle  

mook


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

John,

take this off and try the car....



> Bespoke Stainless Cool Air Wall


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> John,
> 
> take this off and try the car....


OK will try tomorrow

Also I had a cold air feed in the front bumper n/s, going into the air filter area

Were the windscreen washer tank normally is, should I block this?



















I will try it both ways


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## RB211 (Feb 5, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> IT WAS MAPPED BY ABBEY (DAN0H) so he should know what he is doing......but it was mapped on a dyno not the road so there.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And what causes the afm's to oscillate? different compressor wheel speeds inducing different amounts of air? what causes different compressor wheel speeds? The outlet pressure should be the same for each compressor, so it must be different flow across the turbine blades?


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## MADsteve (Nov 25, 2004)

Abbey M/S said:


> IT WAS MAPPED BY ABBEY (DAN0H) so he should know what he is doing......


I strongly disagree.


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## Audio Dave (Apr 19, 2005)

No shuffle with mine either  That's with Trust T517z turbos and Apexi filters with the afm's. The car has a whole list of other mods too, cams ( lumpy as hell at idle ) Apexi downpipes, decat, RSP exhaust, Trust intercooler and HKS hardpipe kit, 1 bar remap, and so on..

Car has been RR'd at 384 atw/457atf and 340 lb/ft torque ( prior to the decat and exhaust ) and drives really well. I'll post up some pics and full spec soon on the members gallery section. Bought the car in January and am very happy with it.


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## mantamac (Sep 19, 2005)

I'll take the plate off your car tomorrow, and you can try it up the road. If that doesn't work, we will block off the cold air feed and test it again.

My feeling is your problem lies with the AFM's and the effect the piping kit has on them. The piping kit is very efficient, but can cause resurgence (spelling?) problems. Due to this, the air passes back through the AFM and gets measured twice and the ecu adds what it thinks is the correct amount of fuel based on an incorrect reading. The Nismo MAF's appear to be very sensitive, and only add to the problem. 
The induction pipes are both different lengths, and so are the top pipes. This will effect the efficiency of each turbo to a small degree, possibly making one a lot more efficient than the other. Couple this with the resurgence you may suffer at the transition from vacuum to boost, and you may get the Lionel Blairs.

Want to buy a nice Evo? One careful lady owner! 

See you at the crack of noon mate. 

Mac.


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## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

Are stock GTR's known to shuffle?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

I can't see why AFM's not working 100% would make any difference to turbo shuffle. 

I can't see why cams would make any difference either. 

I think you might have one turbo that has a slightly higher resistance than the other.


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## mantamac (Sep 19, 2005)

From memory: Before Dung Boys car went for mapping, whilst on the sensor check screen on the PFC, one AFM was giving a slightly different voltage to the other. At the time I thought this may be because the car needed mapping,or because one of the induction pipes was shorter and more direct than the other, and I discounted it as being a problem that mapping couldn't cure.
If in theory one turbo is more efficient that the other and one and one of the MAF sensors is reading differently to the other. The more efficient MAF may be fitted to the more efficient turbo, and this might be another reason for getting shuffle.
I will check the voltages today whilst removing the heatsheild as Abbey Motorsport suggested. If the voltages are in fact different, I will swap them round and road test the car. I'll let everyone know how we got on later. It will be a nice cheap fix if it helps reduce the Whoflung Shimmy a little. 

Mac.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Shuffle*



R32 Combat said:


> I can't see why AFM's not working 100% would make any difference to turbo shuffle.
> 
> I can't see why cams would make any difference either.
> 
> I think you might have one turbo that has a slightly higher resistance than the other.


AFM,s will make a difference because they control fuelling and timing for 3 cylinders which in turn affect the efficiency of those cylinders. Less than perhaps the efficiency on the other 3 cylinders. This causes an imbalance in the air movement and could lead to "shuffle" exageration.

The cams also can make a difference because harmonics can come into the equation.Surely you have seen a n/a engine on a pr of sidedraughts ,even unloaded they get to the point were the "cammy" nature of the engine blows fuel back out of the trumpets.Now if this happens at a bad point on the RB26 it accentuates the so called "shuffle"

Now the imbalance of the the turbos,I think in this case, you have hit the nail on the head.I once had a mildly tuned car with a pair of rebuilt plain bearing turbos that shuffled like mad.We spent a considerable amount of time trying to cure it one way or another and we did make it 90% better with f.con pro and some mods to the "Y" piece on the turbo outlet.We then removed the turbos and air powered them and measured that they had an approx imbalance of 20%. New turbos,back to old management, problem cured!!!.

Tony


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## Jim27 (Jul 1, 2004)

Well my car was chuff-chuff-chuffing at idle. Not sure if this was shuffle or not but it sounded quite 'Darth Vader'ish with the noise coming out of the air filters. There was a 1-2 second pause between each chuff.

I replaced the old atmos BOV with factory recircs and cleaned the AFMs with enough brake cleaner to dissolve a small child and the silly chuffers had stopped.....


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Cams, yes, I could see the issue, but johns turbos should run ok with STD cams. You could lessen the effect with difference cams, but thats not solving the issue at its source.



I still don't understand the AFM point.

How can 1 AFM control the fuelling/timing on 3 cylinders when the air its metered had met up with the air from AFM 2?


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:


> IT WAS MAPPED BY ABBEY (DAN0H) so he should know what he is doing......but it was mapped on a dyno not the road so there.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well done for defining it Mark. Some people have no idea.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

R32 Combat said:


> Cams, yes, I could see the issue, but johns turbos should run ok with STD cams. You could lessen the effect with difference cams, but thats not solving the issue at its source.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is exactly the point.One is working harder than the other,irrespective of where the air finishes up. One is connected to the part of the ecu that manages the front 3 cylinders,one connects to the part of the ecu that managesthe rear 3 cylinders.
I did not say the car in question should not run correctly on standard cams,all I said was that different cams could affect the outcome.
Not rocket science and Ive been there, done that.


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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

The air an AFM is metering is being sucked in from the turbo fed by the front 3 / back 3 cylinders, so it does make sense that the afms control the relevant front/back cylinders


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Ok.


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## mantamac (Sep 19, 2005)

Update is: Whoflungdung rolled the stone back over his door and stayed in the Bear Cave today.
I will get to see the car on monday. I'll take a few pictures of the readings the AFM's give on the Power FC.
It is nice to have a few other opinions rather than just my own.

Mac.


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## IanH (Nov 23, 2002)

On lifting off from say 1/4 throttle to only 1/8th throttle mine shows AFM voltage and Inj Duty figure fluctuate during the "Pan-pipes" (inj shows 5%-15% extra duty) but it still pushes through (although I usually just take my foot off and start again). I'm using a Tial BOV (new piping meant no recirc option available) which I would have thought is my particular area but having read this it could be turbo related


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## Milko (Jun 16, 2004)

My 92' GTR with HKS Metal Flow, Trust downpipes, cat bypass and singlebox cat back has no shuffle at all, but the 94' GTR I just bought, which has aftermarket filters, cat back and some kind of dump valves, shuffles in 3rd, 4th and 5th at part throttle, its not stopping it pulling so I wouldnt consider it that bad, feels more like a misfire, it may even be a misfire, but you can hear the shuffle going from one turbo to the other......


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

I have had a good few skylines now,anytime that I have experienced turbo shuffle when running 400+ bhp my tuner has been able to sort it out everytime with a tweak to the ecu,plus they have always been mapped on the road.

Keith


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## Cord (Aug 21, 2002)

Shuffle is common on GT-RS's but can usually be all but elimanted by careful mapping and use of a balance bar manifold.

I've never experienced shuffle on GT-SS's that wasn't curable with a bit of careful mapping. Maybe the car isn't pulling the exact same loads sites on the dyno as the road and needs a fine tune tweak on the road (not having a pop at the mapper, just a possibility) or there is a problem with one of the turbo's that is causing an imbalance.

Dumping the AFM's is an option, but i don't think it's needed in this case.


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

My thoughts for what they're worth....

I have a RB25 with a GTR twin turbo conversion. I have _one_ airflow meter placed after the intercooler in a 'blow through' arrangement. Originally I had minor shuffle which I eradicated by adjusting the wastegates to ensure that the turbos were boosting by the same amount (boost gauge takeoff in each compressor outlet) and by careful mapping. AFM(s) had no impact on shuffle in my case. Hope that helps.


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## BIGALR33 (Jun 12, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> in addition
> 
> on the motorway
> 
> ...



I get that in my Gts. If i turn the stereo up, I get it all the time!!


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> IT WAS MAPPED BY ABBEY (DAN0H) so he should know what he is doing......but it was mapped on a dyno not the road so there.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The turbo's are working fine, spoke to previous owner and Middlehurst who fitted them and took them off
All the pipe work on my car is from the same car and the afm's
There was no shuffle on that car
My friend will post later with what we tried today...which made no difference

I'm entering the new show "Come Dancing"    

And I will be doing the "Skyline Shuffle" 

Would anybody care to join me..........


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## mantamac (Sep 19, 2005)

As previously mentioned by Shuffles, we had a little play with the car today.
As suggested by Abbey, we removed the Baffle plate and road tested the car. No noticeable difference in the shuffle was detected. 
Then we blocked off the cold air feed from the inner wing to the filters in case this was having and effect.(Baffle still removed) Result, still the same. 
Next I tried swapping the MAFs, and checked the readings on the FC Commander. Result was yet again no change. 
On each road test, I monitored the MAF readings. There was only a very small difference in reading between the two.( 0.03 max, and 0.01 average ) At idle either turbo could produce a lower MAF reading, suggesting similar efficiency. Whilst driving under load, each MAF registered the same readings (=/- 0.03 max) through the rev range, showing that each turbo was pulling the same quantity of air, as measured by the MAFs. This only changed when cruising at the transition from vacuum to boost. As the car starts to shuffle the MAFs would show wildly different readings showing that the turbos were pulling different amounts of air. 
So sorry, no easy cure!  

Mac.


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## mantamac (Sep 19, 2005)

Mac.


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## mantamac (Sep 19, 2005)

Just to add, it was worth the effort testing the car just to see the Shuffler trying to get his 32 going on my snow and ice covered yard with the aid of his triple plate clutch!  

Mac.


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Mark

Would you please email me as promised

Cheers


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Well my car is off to the paintshop!

Sparkling Silver is its new colour....

Wont look as nice as this mans car    

But the same colour on my R32 Gtr should be nice!










Then when its painted, its back to Abbey for the final shuffle hopefully.....
So then I wont be the Count of Shuffle no more, get Danoh warmed up for me!
I will post the results when its re-mapped


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Not even sure what shuffle is??? I'm not even sure what set-up I have because the EEPROM it's running is weird and seems to crank up the boost at intervals as the revs get higher (0.75bar <3750rpm, then 0.8bar 3750-4500rpm, then 0.85bar 4500-5500rpm, then 0.9-0.93bar >5600rpm????


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## purplepower (May 26, 2005)

Apologies for the hijack, but is that car a standard Nissan colour?

If so could some kind sole point me towards the paint code


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

purplepower said:


> Apologies for the hijack, but is that car a standard Nissan colour?
> 
> If so could some kind sole point me towards the paint code



the colour code is Sparkling Silver WV2


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

R33 gts-t I like you Avatar


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Got more results from the other poll


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## GeorgeBush (Feb 27, 2004)

I've got standard cams on mine, 2530's, standard re-circ BOV's, Apexi power intake filters and I get what Mookistar describes as pan-pipes. That is when cruising if I drop from full throttle to about half throttle I hear a sort of chuffing sound, not loud but doesn't dis-appear unless I go off throttle or back on it.

Only noticed it after replacing the standard air-box system with the Apexi's and performance has only improved so this must just be the standard pan-pipe chuffing that is common in all GTR's with aftermarket filters.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

GeorgeBush said:


> I've got standard cams on mine, 2530's, standard re-circ BOV's, Apexi power intake filters and I get what Mookistar describes as pan-pipes. That is when cruising if I drop from full throttle to about half throttle I hear a sort of chuffing sound, not loud but doesn't dis-appear unless I go off throttle or back on it.
> 
> Only noticed it after replacing the standard air-box system with the Apexi's and performance has only improved so this must just be the standard pan-pipe chuffing that is common in all GTR's with aftermarket filters.


this was my error, thats NOT shuffle, merely the sound of the compressed air passing back through the turbo's and out the air filters. The sound you hear is the air being "cut up"

shuffle apparently is a feeling of restriction temporarily felt as the revs rise as i understand it

mook


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

After looking at Mooks post about your 1st post, mine was about turbo shuffle. How bizarre...


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## GeorgeBush (Feb 27, 2004)

Mookistar said:


> this was my error, thats NOT shuffle, merely the sound of the compressed air passing back through the turbo's and out the air filters. The sound you hear is the air being "cut up"
> 
> shuffle apparently is a feeling of restriction temporarily felt as the revs rise as i understand it
> 
> mook


That's a relief


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

Would it make a difference if one turbo was more efficient than the other, the outlets both feed into the same pipe that feeds all Six cylinders?


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

paul cawson said:


> Would it make a difference if one turbo was more efficient than the other, the outlets both feed into the same pipe that feeds all Six cylinders?


Yes!


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

No!


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

> Would it make a difference if one turbo was more efficient than the other, the outlets both feed into the same pipe that feeds all Six cylinders?


YEP..... the efficent one will spool 1st thus slowing down the other one......voila the "shuffles" but only if you are using part throttle , full throttle and they will both spool up in the end


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> YEP..... the efficent one will spool 1st thus slowing down the other one......voila the "shuffles" but only if you are using part throttle , full throttle and they will both spool up in the end


Errr Mr Shuffles here......

Sometimes I have to back off before the car will accelerate, as it will not pull straight through the shuffle sometimes on full throttle

Most annoying though :flame:

Well thats what I remember from over 4 months ago....

Never get yer mate to do a paint job for you :chairshot :chairshot :chairshot


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## Stan (Jun 14, 2006)

If my throttle hits max boost (whatever the setting), and I hold it there, then the car seems to jerk slightly, and there a strange whirring noise (usually three times) - also the turbo boost dial fluctuates - is this the shuffles?
I've not had the car long & I know the previous owner fitted new AFMs & a boost controller just before I got it. Could there be a problem with the set up ?


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

I managed to cure my car tonight of its shuffle sure will miss it


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## GeorgeBush (Feb 27, 2004)

How'd you do that?


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## drive (Jan 22, 2006)

mate, i know all about the funky shuffle!!!! infact i can honestly say there probably hasnt been anyone out there who has experienced any more shuffle than i had goin on!!!!!!!
my problem was lack of knowlage basically.
i thought i was getting i right bargain when i bought the twin gtrs turbo kit brand new off someone on this website for £1900. it was only after i had paid for them i realised that these were not best suited to my 2.6lt engine and infact hks said not to use them unless you had the 2.8lt or the 3.0lt stroker kit.
mark at abbey told me i would get a shuffle problem, but me being me i just thought oh well it cant be that bad......... big mistache!!!!!!!!! :bawling: :bawling: :bawling: this was an absolute f$$king nightmare!!!!! it was well noisey, very very annoying and whats more a complete headache on fuel consumption, infact i was doing around 100miles on a full tank (£55)
i couldnt handle driving the car around like this for long and have recently changed these turbos for smaller garrett ones.
im still running my new engine in at the moment and am having a re-map on weds.
i am expecting and also hoping for little or no shuffle whatsoever.
fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:squintdan :squintdan :chuckle: :chuckle:


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

drive said:


> mate, i know all about the funky shuffle!!!! infact i can honestly say there probably hasnt been anyone out there who has experienced any more shuffle than i had goin on!!!!!!!
> fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:squintdan :squintdan :chuckle: :chuckle:


Funny my car a 2.6 ran shuffle free with the old plain bearing type 2540s. I liked the off boost drive as the exhaust flowed better through the bigger Turbine housing. Then they grazed on big end shell pieces.:wavey: 
The shuffle I speak of is when the dump valves cycle when in fifth gear 
At around 3000 RPM and the car jerks forwards and back as if it has a misfire with the valves opening and closing making the usual dump sound but a lot faster. I have blocked the pipe to one of the valves under the front drivers wing,the car runs well now without jerking. I will get a better after market single dump valve later.

I think there are Two problems that people have one is the dump valves cycling, the other true Turbo shuffle.


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## DAN00H (Jul 14, 2004)

HI All

there was an interesting article in one of the tuner mags over here in Australia called vibrating spring (I think!) it referred to the action of the air vibrating back and forth through the AFM in pulses as the engine drew in the air. it was tested on the GTR, so I will see if I can dig out the mag and perhaps get some digi photos up (if I remember!). from memory, a lot of it came down to tuning. are you guys with the issue sure the cam timing is correct? 

Cheers

DAN00H


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## drive (Jan 22, 2006)

i had the worst shuffle ever when i fitted the hks gtrs turbos on my 2.6gtr!!! i changed them for some new garrett ones and it still shuffles at around 3000rpm in 5th or 6th on the motorway but is no where near as bad as it was before.
i have learnt from experience that it is so important to research before you go ahead and buy performance parts.
i later found out that hks said that the gtrs turbos were only suitable for the rb26 engine with a 2.7 or larger stroker kit.
im pretty sure that you will experience shuffle with most uprated twin turbo kits.... thats just the way it is:squintdan :squintdan :squintdan


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

"careful tuning will reduce/eliminate turbo shuffle" - can someone be more precise? Are we talking AFM curves, ignition maps, or what?

Tomei Poncams, 2860-5s, today I ran into something when cruising in 5th. Put the throttle down about halfway, the car boosted to 0.5bar then stuck there with the recirc BOVs going back and forth at each other like a seesaw - wheesh/whoosh/wheesh/whoosh/wheesh/whoosh. Lifted, downshifted, got on it hard and the car boosted normal. Not sure if this is shuffle. I do get the chopped up choo-choo-choo-choo whenever I lift (Apexi super-intake). I'm mostly hoping that nothing is wrong with my factory BOVs - I like them, I like the sound, and with the 2860s they are a lot louder than ever before.


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## RSAndy (Jul 10, 2006)

Mookistar said:


> in addition
> 
> on the motorway
> 
> ...


my standard car does it big style!


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## skytoy (Sep 24, 2006)

When am on 5th gear doing about 60-70mph I get cho, chooo, choo, choo. Is this what suffle is or is the car ment to jerk back and forward when shuffle happens?


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## Reikun (Feb 10, 2007)

No, but it does the hustle. Do the hustle! :flame:


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

To me, shuffle sounds like a situation where one of the turbo is trying to operate in its surge zone whilst the other isn't. Consequently when the surging turbo loses its "grip" on the air and stalls the other turbo is still making boost and airflow so this exits the wrong way through the stalling compressor giving the symptoms described, and in AFM based applications the fuelling and ignition will also go mental making things worse.

I don't think just having AFMs per se, will cause this issue, but once it starts will exacerbate it by the MAF reversions the surging causes. Different wastegate actuator tensions would be most likely to cause it IMO. The weaker actuated turbo will be spinning slower (due to more exhaust gas bypassing the turbine resulting in lower turbine PR) and therefore flowing a smaller proportion of the total mass of air than the stiffer springed turbo. It would also spool slower on part throttle. As the PR across both compressors would have to be the same, the slower spinning turbo would be more likely to drop into its surge zone, voila - the shuffle 

To map around it you would need to make spool take a hit either by dropping start duties or compromising your spool-up zone in your ignition and fuel map. Alternatively, adjust the wastegates so opening tension/pressure is the same. Both turbos surging at the same time will have less of an effect on drivability than only one surging.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*But*

Surge normally happens with little or no boost pressure.

Tony


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

tonysoprano said:


> Surge normally happens with little or no boost pressure.
> 
> Tony


I disagree. Can you explain why you think this is the case?

Surge occurs at any time the compressor is trying to operate at a pressure ratio that is not supported by the mass air flow, ie anywhere to the left of the surge line on the compressor flow map.










So on the compressor map above, if you attempt to develop a pressure ratio anywhere to the left of the left hand limit of the flow map, surge will occur. Whether you surge or not depends critically on the matching of the turbine to compressor, amongst other things. 

The only time I've experienced surge at low boost (other than when using a stiff dump valve on throttle lifts), is when you are well past the boost threshold but are holding back manifold pressure with the throttle (hence restricting airflow) yet your boost controller is still trying to aggressively ramp up manifold pressure by holding the wastegate closed. This results in an increase in pressure between throttle and turbo exducer, driving the compressor past the surge line. Pressure at the exducer will still be high in this situation, where it matters, but manifold pressure low.

To illustrate, below is a log from 5th gear showing mild surge starting at 1.35 bar of boost. The light blue is boost, which is a bit difficult to see, but there is a minor oscillation in the trace. Compare that to what happens to the load trace (yellow) and you can easily see why surge in AFM based applications can cause headaches!


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

The shuffle most people report here is not on full boost, put rather following a lite tip-out of throttle around 2700 - 3500rpm in 5th. I believe it is caused by marginally different turbine speeds due to different exhaust gas flow over each turbine. This results in one compressor fighting the other due to the common high pressure pipe. Not classsic surge as defined by the surge line.

Case in point - on my car with GT-SS on PFC, during early set-up you could provoke it quite easily, hear it clearly but didn`t feel it in the car. Went to AEM (for a while!!) and due to its now infamous timing control issues (effecting exhaust gas energy) made the problem significantly worse to the point that the car was borderline undriveable in this RPM range / road speed. With a built engine with lots of attention paid to details (flowed head, exhaust manifolds etc) and good mapping the car hardly every does this.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

I've only encountered the above situation once or twice - exact same conditions. Complete lifting on the throttle, shutting the throttle butterflies for a second, then digging into the gas pedal with more balls gets me solidly building boost. Nothing that would make me go out and buy a $2000 HKS exhaust manifold!

The one time I did try to "power through" it, the seesawing of the BOVs was loud enough to cause the missus to look at me with this "you fooking broke the car again, I will kill you!" expression.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*I disagree. Can you explain why you think this is the case?*

Why do I think that is the case? Because, I have been there ,done that many times over the last 16 yrs. Forget your Flow Maps. You are barking up the wrong tree.


Tony


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

Tony

Well your experience contrasts to mine, maybe your interpretation of compressor surge is different to mine?. It may be happening at low manifold boost, but as I've explained in the post above, this may not reflect pressure at the turbo exducer.


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

Tony, to qualify my point a little bit, you said that surge _normally_ happens at low boost, and I haven't found this to be the case. Certainly the effects of surge in a parallel turbo conifg with shared outlet will be more pronounced than a single turbo, particularly if one turbo is surging and the other isn't, either as a result of increased manifold gas flow (as has been proposed by others on this thread) or as a consequence of differences in wastegate preload. I'm suprised you feel flow maps have no bearing on this. You seem to have a lot of experience with this issue, so why not share it with us all so we can learn from it 

ExScoobyT, I'm not sure a small difference in turbine speed will have such a big effect unless the difference results in one compressor trying to perform beyond the limits of its flow map. Did you still have the GT-SS on once things were sorted or different turbos? What happened to AFM voltage and load when it was happening, and did boost oscillate or drop at all?


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

SIHethers,

Hi ya, I think your getting the "shuffles" mixed with the the "surges".

Shuffles this is when one turbo spools up a little faster than the other turbo so stalling the slower spooling turbo, this causes the AFM voltage to go haywire so upsettting the fuelling and Ignition and making the car drive badly i.e not pull through a certain rpm.

Compresser surge in my opinon, is when the exhaust gas is unable to spin the compresser wheel or the motor spools boost real quick at part throttle and the throttle is only part open this stops the compressed air flowing easily making the backe dup compressed air blew back out of the compresser inlet, this is normally cured by running a larger exhaust A/R so making the turbo spool up slower.

These are my opinon , they maybe wrong....but life would be boring if we was always right....

Mark Gillam


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## Hi5 (Aug 31, 2005)

My friends GTR has a quite noticable rocking feeling when in the 2-3krpm range in 3rd 4th and 5th. It did it on stock ECU, and still does it with a PFC installed and mapped. Gary @ gtart didnt explain what he thought the problem was, but just said it was there and proceeded to tell us the car needed a hard pipe kit to run 1bar boost.

The car is pretty much stock, running apexi intakes and an HKS exhaust and decat. It will happily pull through the rev range, it's just when motorway cruising really. Very annoying!

Is this an AFM issue or a turbo issue? and more importantly can it be resolved without spending lots of cash?


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

As per Marks reply. Shuffle and surge are two different things....and on my car same hardware set-up bar the ECU and then rebuild which effectively gave more equal flow to each turbo.
HI5 - careful mapping can help......


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## Hi5 (Aug 31, 2005)

Well the car was mapped by gtart, and it's still there, if not more so :s


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

Mark

I agree with what you say completely  but is compressor stall not also in fact a consequence of trying to get the compressor to operate at the left of the surge line. My understanding was that compressors stall when they go way beyond the surge line, so mild surge you can drive through (as shown on my log above, which was at WOT), but when severe enough (such as running without a dump valve and going WOT to closed throttle) the compressor stalls. 

I think we're all talking about the same physical process but using slightly different terminology to explain it. You see I would say that one turbo spooling quicker than the other causing it to stall (as it isn't spinning fast enough to sustain the pressure ratio generated by the other turbo at its current airflow), is exactly because you drive the slower spooling turbo across its surge line? To me, stall is a consequence of surge.

Forgetting the semantics of it, do you think different preloads on the two turbo actuators could cause this? I would have thought it could as the tighter actuated turbo will spool a little quicker. I suppose it would really only occur if one had too little preload and the other normal, rather than one normal and the other above-normal preload. So where the "*Differential Exhaust Gas Flow Theory*" results in higher absolute turbine flow in one turbo resulting in quicker spool and stall, the "*Differential Wastegate Preload Theory*" results in equivalent absolute gas flow, but lower relative turbine flow in one turbo (due to wastegate bypass of exhaust gas). The net result is the same 

I think these technical discussions are what make a good forum so lets keep having them


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

Its not down to the wastegate pre-load as the shuffle occurs at just around atmos pressure (in the manifold). Pressure at the compressor exducer will be only just above atmos, maybe 1-2PSI and the wastegates are still shut at this point......


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

ExScoobyT

I agree that the DEGT would cause it so balancing this will help, but I'm also trying to tease out other possible explanations, as I'm sure you'll agree that this may not be the only cause.

What I'm sure of is that just having AFMs does not cause this, but there has to be an underlying mechanical issue also. Undoubtedly the AFM reversions you get with compressor stall/surge will make it worse so switching to d-jetro, for example, will help mask the symptoms. Moving to bigger twins will probably help due to slower overall spool-up so reducing the likelihood of such an imbalance developing. Mapping tweaks to lower start duty and slow spool will also help.


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

ExScoobyT said:


> Its not down to the wastegate pre-load as the shuffle occurs at just around atmos pressure (in the manifold). Pressure at the compressor exducer will be only just above atmos, maybe 1-2PSI and the wastegates are still shut at this point......


Very true, one of the wastegates would have to be open a fraction at low boost for the DWPT to occur (which isn't common, but not unheard of).

What mapping tweaks specifically would you employ to control this?


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

I must say that after pairing the afm's together, the shuffle was noticeably better
This was almost a year ago
Since then the car has laid in my (soon to be ex) friends paintshop!!!
Tony said that it would need mapping again, due to the pairing of the afm's
So until they get it back again, which should be soon (a month or so)
We wont know the outcome of my car
And I say this with meaning, as I believe each car can be different
My car shuffles from memory around 70mph, and its horrible
And not always will it pull through on full throttle
The joys of tuning :bawling: 

"The Count of Shuffle"

John


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

whoflungdung said:


> I must say that after pairing the afm's together, the shuffle was noticeably better


That's an interesting thought. I, luckily, am not plagued by the shuffles (yet) but with some GT-SS set to go on this may become a problem. In particular my AFMs do read differently, typically the rear AFM reads low on boost but high on the overrun. I'd sort of put this down to different inlet tract shapes affecting AFM flow distribution, particularly as I'd expect the rear three cylinders to flow more if anything. In addition I had assumed that the 2 AFM voltages were averaged by the ecu before applying fueling, seeing as they feed a common plenum, but I've heard murmurs that they may dictate fuelling to the front and rear 3 cylinders separately. Does anyone know this with certainty?

Is this the herald of impending shuffle when I fit my new quicker spooling turbos?


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## ExScoobyT (Jan 6, 2004)

AFMs don`t cause the problem. The lead item is one compressor flowing marginally more than the other due to different turbine flows. This can be picked up on the AFM signal of course and depending on the mapping can make it worse once its started. Deleting the AFMs drops the pressure loss on the low pressure side perhaps making pressure ratios on each compressor more equal. You also dont see the small load changes at the MAP in the manifold so position on the ECU map does not dance around.

Mapping wise, its a case of making sure the fuel & ignition map are failry flat in this region so that small changes in load don`t result in changing AFR & timing (thus driving differential flow over the turbine). Also making sure you don`t go too lean to course partial burns that you may not feel as misfires but again drives different flows in the turbines.

HKS `fix` is the balance pipe accross the exhaust manifolds which aim to equalize exhaust pressure pre-turbine and hence promote equal flow. 

Some cars may be worse than others due to different flows in the exhaust manifold. I flowed & matched the throttle bodies, head & exhaust manifold and this defineately improved the issue to the point that it rarely happens on my car.....

Editted to add that the airflows are averaged to calculate load. The MAFS will read differently and I also put this down to different pressure drops pre and post compressor......


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## SIHethers (Feb 1, 2006)

Yes, that all makes good sense.

Cheers!


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

> Its not down to the wastegate pre-load as the shuffle occurs at just around atmos pressure (in the manifold). Pressure at the compressor exducer will be only just above atmos, maybe 1-2PSI and the wastegates are still shut at this point......


 agree on this 



> Moving to bigger twins will probably help due to slower overall spool-up so reducing the likelihood of such an imbalance developing. Mapping tweaks to lower start duty and slow spool will also help


In my opinon the bigger the turbo,s the worse the shuffles will be as the turbo,s need more exhaust gas to spin them , we have very little trouble with shuffles on GT-ss , but removing the AFM,s is the best way to go , you can hear the shuffles but no hassle with driveabilty.

All the theory stuff holds no relevance to me, we seen , tried and worked around a lot of problems, thats where the dyno and years of experience come into reason.

And if you want to get rid of the shuffles 100% fit a single thay arent laggy just need to be specced 100% correctly....


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Well after a "YEAR" stuck in my ex friends bodyshop, my car went back to Abbey for the re-map......
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/74061-abbey-motorsport.html

The re-map was done with the afm's paired
The car was mapped at 1.2 bar producing 393 at the hubs if I am right?
So then you add whatever theory you are working with on top 20 to 27%???
And the torque was 347lbs/ft
Not really bothered about the figures, its just a very quick car(for me)

The car is much more user friendly now at a sustained steady pace
It does still shuffle, but nowhere near as violently as it did

Two thumbs up for the mapping and Abbey's professional approach to helping me sort this out :thumbsup:


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Oh I could go into one here!!!! I think the bottom line is that it all depends on your tuner!!! I have had my car for 9 years now and have “gone thro” most of em ! 

AFM’s, no AFM’s, Bigger or smaller Turbo’s, Hard pipe kits, Bigger Intercooler, all excuses have been used ! The way I “beat” it was to tell my tuner in no uncertain terms that I didn’t want any Turbo shuffle on or off boost and as far as I am aware it can be “tuned” out with the correct hardware. Now running sweetly but, yes it all took time. Also, don’t go along the line of “this is what we do for all our customers” WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME and use our cars for different purposes and we all drive differently! My car is now (as it should have been long ago) set up as a track car more than a road car, BUT I still want to be able to use it on the road comfortably. Again, speak to them, tell them what YOU want and pay accordingly!!!! As I say it has taken me (and my tuner I am now with) the pat 3 years to get the car the way I want it.

Good luck and open another bank account for the new loan!!!


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## drive (Jan 22, 2006)

after i bought a pair of hks gtrs turbos for my gtr i went againts everyones advise and still proceded to fit them onto my car. mark at abbey told me not to fit them, and i sooooooooooooo wish i never had done. the car was very unplesent to drive, very noisy and i lasted about 500miles before i jus had to change them. i fitted a pair of garrett turbos and although it does still slightly shuffle its hardly noticable now.
i have lernt one important thing about modding cars and that is ALWAYS seek advise before you go and throw a load of money at your car:chuckle:


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## anthonymcgrath (Feb 22, 2005)

mine does a bit of chuff chuff if I put my foot on the gas then ease off but usually only above 70mph really. If I come off gas (ie: gearchange) it just makes the usual bov sound. I'm just on stock tubs.


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## sethrichmond (Jan 24, 2007)

ExScoobyT said:


> Its not down to the wastegate pre-load as the shuffle occurs at just around atmos pressure (in the manifold). Pressure at the compressor exducer will be only just above atmos, maybe 1-2PSI and the wastegates are still shut at this point......




my r33 is fully built 2.8 with new gt2860-10's.
just laid down 600whp at 16psi
gigantic cams, tomei 290degree with 11.(something) lift
aem standalone no MAF's

sounds like darth vader... i like it.
surges under part throttle boost. (still tuning)

one turbo has the oem wastegate actuator and one is a new garret. (had tech difficulties with the 2nd garret actuator.)
i'll change out the oem actuator this week. i expect it to help the part-throttle surge. if it cures the shuffles that would be interesting.


would connecting the 2 intake pipes (precompressor) help? it seems like it would balance the airflow?


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

I have managed to fix my shuffle it was quite bad but now the car does not do it at all. I have changed the induction system from Ms to Apexi and both MAFs. Also running a different MAP and injectors. I will put the old induction system back on to see if it starts again.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

mines started to shuffle. most noticable on partial throttle, uphill in 5th, and when fully loaded. but it also does it at full throttle in the same circumstances.

i know it wants a remap, but the question i have, is shuffle dangerous?

mook


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

when you say dangerous, do you mean, will it break your car?

if so, I believe the answer to be no
I think shuffle has been explained more than enough on my thread :chuckle: 
so you should be ok to continue driving for a while

but I would be worried as to why it has just come about???
there are several things that can cause shuffle, most have been covered I believe in this thread

good luck, as I know this shuffle milarky is a complete nightmare
and makes the car less of a joy to drive    

John


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> mines started to shuffle. most noticable on partial throttle, uphill in 5th, and when fully loaded. but it also does it at full throttle in the same circumstances.
> 
> i know it wants a remap, but the question i have, is shuffle dangerous?
> 
> mook


did you clarify what was wrong with the car???


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

whoflungdung said:


> After my car has had all its mods(mild for a Skyline)
> 
> It now shuffles
> 
> ...


mine use to shuffle when i first had mods done to my car by a company up north but then a had taken my car to ron at RK and it never shuffled again , runs realy smooth and they got a little more power out of it compared to the previous tuner


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

jaycabs said:


> mine use to shuffle when i first had mods done to my car by a company up north but then a had taken my car to ron at RK and it never shuffled again , runs realy smooth and they got a little more power out of it compared to the previous tuner


so what you are saying is that my car has been mapped incorrectly
and all other cars that have shuffle are down to mapping

I find this very unbelieveable
If any tuner out there believes they can fix my shuffle(without spending more)
Let me get down to the v-power pump and get on my way

Otherwise Mr jaycabs, I would suggest you think before you talk

If I am wrong here, I apologise immediately
And I am currently at the pump awaiting directions


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

whoflungdung said:


> so what you are saying is that my car has been mapped incorrectly
> and all other cars that have shuffle are down to mapping
> 
> I find this very unbelieveable


decent mapping can help, same as it can help surge, boost threshold, turbo lag, and pretty much anything.

both are mechanical issues that can be made MUCH better or worse with good mapping. 

just because you can map, dont mean you can map good. just because you can map good, dont mean your the best one.

most modified car issues are mechanical issues made worse by electronic "issues" caused by mapping issues.


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Oh well, if there is any tuner in the country???????
I am willing to travel, obviously I will not be paying for a map that will not cure my shuffles
Or will lose me any of the 393 atw I have

Lets see who comes forward eh!


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Your in the North West so you are near the person id always prefer to map any car I own. And will do it properly, live mapped on the road.

Stuart Sanderson at Motorsport Developments in Blackpool.

Call him, explain it all, inc the shuffle etc, book it in, and get back a much transformed car.


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

*THINK BEFORE I TALK !*



whoflungdung said:


> so what you are saying is that my car has been mapped incorrectly
> and all other cars that have shuffle are down to mapping
> 
> I find this very unbelieveable
> ...


some how i think its u who needs to think before u talk as all i did was explain my experience in that matter and that experience is exactly what happened and there is nothing unbelievable about it at all . just by your reply seems your way of thinking is very limited . i gave my car to rk for a retune and thats what they did and hey presto !!! no more shuffle !!!!! and it does run like a dream , all 509 bhp and 400lbft still on standard afm and standard cams and standard intercooler and it quite happily pulls towards the best part of a double ton . so in all to make it clear that RK did a damn good job as far as im concerned


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

jaycabs said:


> some how i think its u who needs to think before u talk as all i did was explain my experience in that matter and that experience is exactly what happened and there is nothing unbelievable about it at all . just by your reply seems your way of thinking is very limited . i gave my car to rk for a retune and thats what they did and hey presto !!! no more shuffle !!!!! and it does run like a dream , all 509 bhp and 400lbft still on standard afm and standard cams and standard intercooler and it quite happily pulls towards the best part of a double ton . so in all to make it clear that RK did a damn good job as far as im concerned


not going down this route with you, and all of your 4 posts  
I'm sure if any of the tuners out there wish to let me know they can map it better, they will
think what you will, if thats possible :chuckle: 
I suggest you read the whole thread

feel free to try and provoke me, good night :wavey:


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## munro (Oct 3, 2006)

whoflungdung 

jaycabs is not trying to provoke you what he is saying is true.

If a car suffers from the shuffles and the mapper knows what he is doing it can be sorted that is a fact.

Just because you thought that you had went to the best skyline tuner in the Uk with your car to get it mapped.

Just goes to show how wrong you were by going there and did they not have a 2nd go at it lol

If i was you i would asking for my money back and then go to someone that will do the job right.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

mines almost certainly down to mapping, ive modified the car, after it was "mapped" and only since then does it happen

ive no doubt i need a remap but can i be bothered...

lol

mook


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> mines almost certainly down to mapping, ive modified the car, after it was "mapped" and only since then does it happen
> 
> ive no doubt i need a remap but can i be bothered...
> 
> ...


so, do you believe that at the second time of asking 
Dan at Abbey Motorsport has got it wrong on my car?

the reason I question people saying its down to mapping is....

the fact so many peoples cars have the shuffles
hence the reason for the poll
its not me being blind towards who tuned my car
I have no reason to side with Abbey whatsoever
I will take my car to whom I believe to be the best for me
maybe I got it wrong?
but as always you will hear good and bad everywhere


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

AFAIK my car has an off the shelf map (Abbey), designed for certain mods, and its only since i changed those mods that its started to shuffle.

but i could be wrong, i usually am

lol

mook


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## Tommy F (Oct 31, 2005)

When i fitted new turbos,cams and a new exhaust to my R32 it shuffled like mad one trip down to rb motorsport and within 1/2 hr Rod had it sorted and i got all the way back to Aberdeen on 1 tank of fuel without a single shuffle.

Pity you burnt your bridges by slagged rb motorsport off a while back as they are not far from you.


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

whoflungdung said:


> not going down this route with you, and all of your 4 posts
> I'm sure if any of the tuners out there wish to let me know they can map it better, they will
> think what you will, if thats possible :chuckle:
> I suggest you read the whole thread
> ...


just so i'll have u know my 4 posts are only part of many from when i use to be with gtr forum butr i strayed of from it for a while !! i would realy suggest u get of your high horse and just grow up as every thing u have said so far to me has been backed with nothing just a big headed single minded way of thinking . when u learn to speak to people properly and not in a jacked up spoilt manner then i suggest again grow up !


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> AFAIK my car has an off the shelf map (Abbey), designed for certain mods, and its only since i changed those mods that its started to shuffle.
> 
> but i could be wrong, i usually am
> 
> ...


sorry what does AFAIK mean please?


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## shade (Nov 28, 2006)

whoflungdung said:


> sorry what does AFAIK mean please?


AFAIK = As far as I know.


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

I swapped AFMs, plugs,injectors to find out why my GTR shuffled, it stopped when I changed the ECU for another with a burnt chip from RK.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

whoflungdung said:


> not going down this route with you, and all of your 4 posts
> I'm sure if any of the tuners out there wish to let me know they can map it better, they will
> think what you will, if thats possible :chuckle:
> I suggest you read the whole thread
> ...


so he not worth listening to as he got 4 posts?

that pretty much sums up this forum doesnt it.

the ones with the biggest power cars are the ones listened to even tho they just do exactly what the tuners tells them, right or wrong, and someone with thousands of posts should ignore and talk down to the person with only a few, even when he is blatantly correct.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Tommy F said:


> When i fitted new turbos,cams and a new exhaust to my R32 it shuffled like mad .


EXACTLY

I bought a stage one abbey car, which AFAIK has a pre written map designed for apexi filters, trust exhaust, downpipes and 1 bar boost

since then ive fitted rebuilt r33 turbo's in steel
HKS Turbo Elbows and a blitz Nur spec.

since then its shuffled, but only when i have passengers.

Ron at RK said it need a remap, not for reliability, but for driveability, and as soon as i stop wasting my money on Metro's and Xbox games, i'll get it done

lol

mook


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> EXACTLY
> 
> I bought a stage one abbey car, which AFAIK has a pre written map designed for apexi filters, trust exhaust, downpipes and 1 bar boost
> 
> ...


EXACTLY what??????????
My car had all the mods on, when it was mapped by Abbey
So my problem is not the same

lol

And SteveN

Funnily enough, people who are new members with low post numbers I am weiry of
Because let me tell you, there is some right crap info given out on here :squintdan 
I have learnt the hard way on my car, and I am still learning
I wish I knew what I know now when I bought my car, but thats life 
Full of experiences, some good some bad
Oh and just for your ears, I didn't do what any tuner told me 
I asked everyone and did my own thing, based upon what I learnt off others
The only hold the tuners have over me is mapping, nothing else
As a car is a car whatever it may well be

Its such a joy on this forum
All I wanted to do was build a fast car(to me) and enjoy it
It seems that a minority of people on here just want to be cantankerous
As I have stated previous, any tuner that thinks they can fix my shuffle is welcome to my money
I am here and waiting

ps

Sorry to all the people on here who have helped me or indeed I have helped them in the past(there are many)
This place is rapidly going down the tubes

pps

for all the I am's here
my car is never going to be the fastest, nor will it ever be the best
it will be my own modified Skyline
that I will enjoy some day soon

John AKA "The Bear" to my friends


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## Lag Monster (Aug 16, 2007)

whoflungdung.

Its all in the mapping mate. Its all ok doing the Dynapack stuff but you also need to get her on the road. My man mapps it on the rollers then takes it on his private street to correct it. I have similar set up and went to Abbey jeez it was shocking tried someone else and the car is mint. And half the price.

Your tuner is just a big name. Look at all the big name people that have left recently. Does it not register why they have left? Mapping. They don't know what they are doing. Yea all safe over Fueling but not quick.
Were is rocket ronnie now all the propper tuners are coming to have a go??

That Endless car will whip it easy 8 second road car. Better than your abbey 10's.

MAPPING.


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## whoflungdung (May 7, 2005)

Lag Monster said:


> whoflungdung.
> 
> Its all in the mapping mate. Its all ok doing the Dynapack stuff but you also need to get her on the road. My man mapps it on the rollers then takes it on his private street to correct it. I have similar set up and went to Abbey jeez it was shocking tried someone else and the car is mint. And half the price.
> 
> ...


you have a fair point with recent events at Abbey
I have spoken to a few that have problems ongoing or past
but as I say this, so do most tuners have their doubters and or problems
so what do you do??????????

I think I will wait until my car is back on the road and then maybe contact another tuner with my concerns and see if they are willing to try


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

I moved from abbey.

Car has never been the same since. Now it is savage end of story.

Try Rob whoflungdung.

Mick


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## Butuz (Jan 9, 2005)

Nowt wrong with a bit of the Shuffle! 

Butuz


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## beaumackenzie (Jan 21, 2008)

shuffle in a twin turbo setup is like jump starting a car battery... one is flat and lacking voltage, the other is loaded on full voltage, the minute you connect the jumper leads the loaded battery starts transfering its energy to the flat battery untill either you remove the jumper leads, or the power level in each battery becomes equal....

the trick is to shift the splitter that Joins the two turbo's to the intercooler as close as possible to the intercooler and away from the turbo's, the closer you can get the splitter to a pressure drop area( i.e. the intercooler tank before the air enters the fins) the less back spool pressure that will travel back. 

also, if you place a bov on the intake side of the intercooler and one nearer the intake manifold it will help create a more even pressure drop along the intae system keeping the air in a more even directional flow away from the turbo set up. 

this way the back spool wont disrupt the still air between the afm and turbo's(as much) pushing the air back out through the afm,s, causing them to ocilate.

it's all down to areodynamics and the air resonating along the intake system.

the occillation is refers to transfering mass, one sqaure inch of air replacing another inch of air that has been consumed by the engine. 

for the layman air that is drawn through one afm by a turbo and resonates back along to the other turbo disrupting the airflow in the opposing afm.


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## Eber (Aug 5, 2007)

I have recently rebuilt my whole motor and uprated it with all forged internal. I am still running on stock Mafs for the break in period and am running twin disco potaoes. I have already custom fitted a balance tude between the stock manifolds and the car runs great until it warms up. Then it is completly undrivable. As in... It wont move anywhere, just hesitates and makes a racket. Please help. Is D-jetro and a perfect tune gonna help or do I have bigger problems. All the pipes are custom made so I dont know if there could be serious flow differences between the two turbos


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

twin 2835s Vpro, so no AFM's, GTaRt map - no shuffle at all ever...


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## Brian220 (Mar 10, 2005)

I thought i would be worth adding my latest experience to the 'shuffle' thread to see if it may help anyone...

I had mine mapped a few months back and the guys who mapped it advised on removing my HKS dump valves and put the standards back on for better idle and fuel economy. 
Since doing this I now get quite a bit of shuffle plus my fuel economy is pants.
I does idle nice though. 

Perhaps it needs mapping again but for the meantime I will be putting the HKS BOVs back on.

Brian


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

shuffle drops AFR down into the 9s, hence crap fuel economy.

I'm doing the twin turbo pipe mod - straightforward, and pics have been posted. It's simple enough that it ought to be a routine modification.

I use a vent-to-atmosphere HKS Racing BOV. With MAFs. Works perfectly fine. Recirc is useless.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/107085-twin-turbo-pipe-modification-fitting-guide.html#post1001069


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## Big Ash (Sep 30, 2008)

I made my own pipework with seperate pipes for each turbo and had loads of shuffle. I then put a small balance pipe from the outlets of each turbo and was told "that wont work". It sorted it out. Anyone know why??? I dont but it did!!!:


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## GouldyGTR (May 17, 2008)

mine seems to be doing it more with the colder air , also when the car has more crap in the boot (i presume as im using the accelerator that little bit more) 

im getting the mod pipe as soon as i have some monies


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## creedonsr20det (Aug 6, 2008)

whats the best way of getting rid of shuffle if you have an after market hard pipe kit..mine is hks,iv got seperate pipes coming from both turbos..they connect into one pipe just before entering the intercoller under the headlight...as in the twin turbo baffled pipe wouldnt work in my case..and iv got bad shufle..really annoying.What can i do??


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## gibson (Feb 21, 2005)

get an RB30 shufffle issues ... solved... easy


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

MAPPING MAPPING MAPPING opcorn:


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## Lambda One (Jul 3, 2007)

Mine is devoid of shuffle.

Lyndon.


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## creedonsr20det (Aug 6, 2008)

gibson said:


> get an RB30 shufffle issues ... solved... easy


gota tomei forged+24u block rb26 going in next week..!rb30 ina few years and skylines down the road!

im hoping mapping will sort it:thumbsup:


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

creedonsr20det said:


> gota tomei forged+24u block rb26 going in next week..!rb30 ina few years and skylines down the road!
> 
> im hoping mapping will sort it:thumbsup:


if its good mapping done then it will get rid of nearly all of it or it will eliminate the shuffle completely as i found that out like i said much earlier about after RK tuning mapped my car . they done a brilliant job :smokin:

the shuffle i had before made the car a joke to drive , every gear change was never straight forward , thats how bad mine was


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## creedonsr20det (Aug 6, 2008)

i bought the engine i have off Ron..sound fella!very professional..hes place is pretty hard to find tho aint it!!!my old engine used shuffle so bad that my head used b bopn back and forward..horrible!fingers crossed with my new engine/map..!:smokin:


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

yeah first time i drove there i nearly went straight past the turn on the main road before the you go down the skinny road .

i use to hate the shuffle i had , it realy ruined the drive especialy if some one wanted to have a play and they would be accelerating while your still trying to get the shuffle to settle down just to get going in the gear you just selected.

now ever since RK mapped mine theres not even the slight of hesitation .

even though there is that baffled pipe on here that alot say gets rid of the shuffle , im still tempted to get that later from reading how much it improves the airflow and increase's bhp, seems like a worthy mod especialy as it doesnt cost to much , even polished .


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

even with mayb 2540s, my car just have very very little shuffle..u can hear the woosh woosh woosh for 1-2 secs then its gone...hgiher rpms are fine,nothing at all

i got hks balance pipe manis, complete hardpipe kit - no twinturbo pipe and fcon..i think it helps abit


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

SteveN said:


> Your in the North West so you are near the person id always prefer to map any car I own. And will do it properly, live mapped on the road.
> 
> Stuart Sanderson at Motorsport Developments in Blackpool.
> 
> Call him, explain it all, inc the shuffle etc, book it in, and get back a much transformed car.


stu at msd is an awesome mapper, he mapped my t4 cossie at 2.2 bar


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## scoooby slayer (Jun 13, 2009)

zero shuffle on mine, 1.4 bar held 2650 cc 2860-5s


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## wetunerdream (Dec 17, 2009)

hey guys, what are afm's?


----------



## markM3 (Jan 7, 2008)

Air Flow Meters - situated just after your airfilter.

Cheers,


----------



## rhds14 (Nov 16, 2005)

..and some GTR's run without MAF's, then they would be using MAP sensors instead and some sort of engine management system such as Power FC.


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## Jimbostir (Dec 2, 2008)

Ive got v.slight shuffle, but not alot. Apexi AX53B60's running 1.45 bar. 

L jectro apexi power fc works with MAFs. D jectro runs with MAP sensors. All clever stuff!

WETUNERDREAM.. MAF= Mass Air Flow MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor. ( if nobody tells you, how will you know?)


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

i have -10s but on the larger rb26/30 so the shuffle does not affect performance.
at times i can hear the shuffle under load in a high gear but once boost starts ramping up it completely disappears


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## GT4 Addicted (Feb 16, 2005)

i have twin GTSS , modified "twin turbo" pipe and no AFMs and my car shuffle when on light throttle


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

can you feel the shuffle or only here it?


Mark


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

GT4 Addicted said:


> i have twin GTSS , modified "twin turbo" pipe and no AFMs and my car shuffle when on light throttle


i was thinking about getting the twin turbo pipe mod done but if u still get light shuffle - what is the point...


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

*shuffle*

im just inthe process of buying an f-con v pro gold 3.2 and going maffless as going to be running 2860-10s im banking on the mapper then being able to set my car up with no shuffle:nervous::nervous:.


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

What is maffless or is that a typo?


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## herman (Apr 1, 2007)

*maffless*



Marko R1 said:


> What is maffless or is that a typo?


hi mate,just 
means im doing away with my air flow metres and letting the new f-con pro v 3.2 gold ecu sort it all out.its just that im hoping by getting rid of the afm"s that should stop my car having turbo shuffle as i think "turbo shuffle" is somthing to do with air flow and having 2 afm"s is a contributing factor.:thumbsup:


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## GT4 Addicted (Feb 16, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> can you feel the shuffle or only here it?
> 
> 
> Mark


i can hear it and the car loose power until i give it more or less throttle...:nervous: when it appear the car seems to hesitate and the boost gauge is moving really fast up and down.... really annoying because it appears on light throttle for example when driving on motorway... 

is there a risk for the engine or turbos when driving with shuffle? :nervous:


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Sounds like it has either a Crank angle sensor problem or a small air leak , it never did that when we tuned the car for Mike to original owner.

There again your going over to Motec so your tuner will be able to sort the problem wont he.


No real problem with the shuffles at part throttle thou.

Mark


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Twin 2860 -10's, no AFM's, Motec M800 management, Tomei 280 degree 10.8 mm lift cams, ported head, stock TB's, on a 86.5 mm bore, stock stroke RB26 with all steel internals. No shuffle at all, makes usable boost by 4000, still making rising boost at 8500 RPM. Professionally mapped, which I think is a big part of the secret, plus the lack of AFM's, which are notoriously sensitive to cam timing and air reversion or pulsing.


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## GT4 Addicted (Feb 16, 2005)

Abbey M/S said:


> Sounds like it has either a Crank angle sensor problem or a small air leak , it never did that when we tuned the car for Mike to original owner.
> 
> There again your going over to Motec so your tuner will be able to sort the problem wont he.
> 
> ...


i've fitted an OEM airbox with Blitz air filter and the car don't shuffle anymore... not only the noise has disappeared but boost oscillation has disappered too... car runs like a dream now...


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

Chris Wilson said:


> Twin 2860 -10's, no AFM's, Motec M800 management, Tomei 280 degree 10.8 mm lift cams, ported head, stock TB's, on a 86.5 mm bore, stock stroke RB26 with all steel internals. No shuffle at all, makes usable boost by 4000, still making rising boost at 8500 RPM. Professionally mapped, which I think is a big part of the secret, plus the lack of AFM's, which are notoriously sensitive to cam timing and air reversion or pulsing.


is there power gains to be made if I run my -10s without afms? I'm a running a pfc so I'd need to change ecu as well right?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

AFM's can pose an air flow restriction, but more importantly they are really for economy and emissions. They do not like many performance mods, especially cams with much more than stock duration. Any air flow reversal or pulsation in them can cause wild mixture changes. The distance they are from the ports is critical, and this will have been "tuned" by Nissan for a stock set up. If you intend anything more than very mild cams they are best deleted. Whether a power gain on a totally stock engine switched from AFM's to a MAP only sensor system with suitable ecu would be apparent is very debatable, but for serious mods you should certainly find set up easier without the AFM's

A Power FC is or was available with something called D Jetro, but they are pretty crude. You are better budgeting for something better if you plan any serious mods, although my GTS-t engine (on an AFM) runs great on a Power FC, and they do the job at a low cost and painless install.

I plan on running a stock air box on my RB26 engine, but whilst it's still in a GTS-t shell space precludes its fitment. It's got two horrible pod filters on it, the things I slate like hell, but that's just for system checks


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

Chris Wilson said:


> AFM's can pose an air flow restriction, but more importantly they are really for economy and emissions. They do not like many performance mods, especially cams with much more than stock duration. Any air flow reversal or pulsation in them can cause wild mixture changes. The distance they are from the ports is critical, and this will have been "tuned" by Nissan for a stock set up. If you intend anything more than very mild cams they are best deleted. Whether a power gain on a totally stock engine switched from AFM's to a MAP only sensor system with suitable ecu would be apparent is very debatable, but for serious mods you should certainly find set up easier without the AFM's
> 
> A Power FC is or was available with something called D Jetro, but they are pretty crude. You are better budgeting for something better if you plan any serious mods, although my GTS-t engine (on an AFM) runs great on a Power FC, and they do the job at a low cost and painless install.
> 
> I plan on running a stock air box on my RB26 engine, but whilst it's still in a GTS-t shell space precludes its fitment. It's got two horrible pod filters on it, the things I slate like hell, but that's just for system checks


So which is the best with AFM or Map?? 
What does it means many performance mods? 
cams with much more than stock duration ? any particular lift or duration number? 

So if someone wants to make some serious power is not even able with the nismo AFMs? then why all these 600-800hp cars still have them and use some wild cams and dont have any problems?, please be more specific a lot of people are going to get confused.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Long duration cams and air flow meters are not happy bedfellows, especially on engines with every cylinder having its own throttle plate. No serious high performance engine that does not have to meet emissions legislation would use an air flow metered system.


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## SteffanChyzak (Sep 12, 2010)

I dont get any shuffle running standard maffs on twin turbos.


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## gtr-loz (Feb 10, 2006)

had shuffle after map from well known tuner, mapped it myself, no shuffle what a waste of money that was!

have tomei poncams type b and 2860-5's with z32 and power fc


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## kannibal (Oct 1, 2010)

Could it be 'strong' schuffle?

see on maintenance section, see post rb26dett problem....
(I cannot insert direct link now)
As the 'garage' where I bought the car said they have replace only one turbo


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## steve3961 (Aug 9, 2010)

whoflungdung said:


> After my car has had all its mods(mild for a Skyline)
> 
> Full Re-Spray
> 
> ?


This is obviously the cause of your shuffle!:flame:


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## markdett (Sep 8, 2010)

For those of you suffering the curse of the shuffle, i strongly suggest trying a 3 dimensional boost controller. 9 times out of 10 you will never hear you car shuffle again :smokin:


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

3 dimensional boost controller???


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## markdett (Sep 8, 2010)

DrGtr said:


> 3 dimensional boost controller???


Yep i dunno if you read my other post, but its just an electronic boost controller that has input from the cam pos sensor (ening RPM) and your throttle position sensor. Basiically the duty cycle of the solenoid valve will change as the engine RPM does, and with the throttle pos sensor input it tells it how much air it can handle depending on the postion of the throttles.


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

yes i have read it, i am just trying to think if i should sell my evc6 which is still in the box and get the bc of the link g4 which i have for ess complicated installation. evc6 have the same function and even more than the link one though i think you can choose either rpm or throttle position and hopefully is proportional.


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## Markturbo (Jan 12, 2011)

No shuffle

green label afm's, 2860-5's


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## .::TopSky::. (Nov 4, 2010)

I run single turbo now, i never felt any shuffle when i ran RB28 and GT-RS around 600-650hp Nismo AFMs


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

.::TopSky::. said:


> I run single turbo now, i never felt any shuffle when i ran RB28 and GT-RS around 600-650hp Nismo AFMs


you are lucky and the first who say this about this combo.


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## .::TopSky::. (Nov 4, 2010)

DrGtr said:


> you are lucky and the first who say this about this combo.


Beacuse the GT-RSs are "big" turbos? I think I have a very good tuner and thats all, Im not verry lucky :chuckle:


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## ODEngines (Jan 4, 2010)

DrGtr said:


> you are lucky and the first who say this about this combo.


Depends on how you drive too. Some gtr owners dont mind cruising around at 60km/h in 3rd. At light load the turbo's will be on the threshold of producing boost if you floor it, but as the engine is in vacuum you wont notice any shuffle.

I think as capacity increases the worse shuffle and compressor surge affect the low speed drivability. 

So with GTRS's on an Rb26 you dont get peak boost till 5500, low speed shuffle wont be an issue and once your up in the rev range it will be spinning both turbo's hard anyway.

From what ive heard the RB30 guys are making peak boost at 5000 rpm. Most have shuffle issues to as they will be starting to spool the turbo up around 2500 rpm with light loads. 

With my stroked 3.15lt Rb26 the turbo's start to spool at 2000 rpm in 4-6th gears. When your trying to maintain a cruise RPM of around 1800-2000, the turbos were right on the edge of where the shuffling started to happen. Get off the throttle and nail it though, and there wasnt an issue. Both would spoll in parallel. I have proven this by monitoring the MAF sensor voltages under varying driving conditions. Shuffling you could litterally see as the MAF sensor voltages would see-saw back and fourth with up to 2.5v variation between the two sensors.

Ive fitted a baffle plate in my twin turbo pipe and it made some difference, buit the engine didnt become tunable until I switched to a d-jetro for map based tuning. So even though there is light shuffle at low speed now, it doesnt affect the tune (active load points in the ecu). The shuffle is still there though as it affects spool time when you floor it from a light cruise condition. Drive it briskly though and always above 3500 and there is no problem at all. 1.3 bar at a fraction under 4500 rpm.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Wll written Sir , totall agree with what you have written.




ODEngines said:


> Depends on how you drive too. Some gtr owners dont mind cruising around at 60km/h in 3rd. At light load the turbo's will be on the threshold of producing boost if you floor it, but as the engine is in vacuum you wont notice any shuffle.
> 
> I think as capacity increases the worse shuffle and compressor surge affect the low speed drivability.
> 
> ...


----------



## .::TopSky::. (Nov 4, 2010)

ODEngines said:


> Depends on how you drive too. Some gtr owners dont mind cruising around at 60km/h in 3rd. At light load the turbo's will be on the threshold of producing boost if you floor it, but as the engine is in vacuum you wont notice any shuffle.
> 
> I think as capacity increases the worse shuffle and compressor surge affect the low speed drivability.
> 
> ...


True.


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

i have kept in touch with the guy who bought my old gtr which was a 2.6ltr with hks gtrs's...with the power fc & afm's in place, the shuffle was incredible - like a train!

he then switched the ecu with a vipec & removed the afm's, since then it has not shuffled once & in fact he cant get it to shuffle...those afm's do weird & wonderful things


----------



## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

I have never had the gtrs or drive a car with them, you seem to have tested this a lot and found a lot still from the dynos many have shown on here for a 2.6 or a 2.8 i wouldnt like to use them they seem to be nice on a 3.0 though for the lag they have i would like to go for bigger twins have more hp and less shuffle, if you ask me if i would like to have the extra power they offer i would say ofcourse yes, but still i went for the well proven -5, after all this time i have 40000euros of parts i am still thinking about having more power once i build the engine, i have spent so much to make an engine capable theoretically for more than 1200hp and its a pity to have it working only with 650hp fly, so many times i thought of changing my tubs for the bigger twins or go single, the best i can thing of though is to sent my -5 to the uk and modify them hopefully i will get 750 to 800 with them but if you ask me my opinion or what i would like of turbo in all the ways from all the videos i have seen would be a T88-34 for a 900+ 

mark i didn't call you yet , i just came back to Cyprus i will try and call you this week.


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Does anyone in the South West, South, South Midlands of the UK still have shuffle?
If so drop me a pm please.:thumbsup:
Cheers

bob


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## RonniNielsen (Jan 14, 2011)

well, mine is only mapped for breaking in the engine, but it still shuffles alot actually 

2.8 L
-10 garett (gtrs)
and and fcon pro with map sensor...

i really hoped to get rid of the shuffle... any ideas anyone?


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

RonniNielsen said:


> well, mine is only mapped for breaking in the engine, but it still shuffles alot actually
> 
> 2.8 L
> -10 garett (gtrs)
> ...


You car will need the ignition map optimising , I have tuned a few cars with -10's (GT-RS's) the ignition map needs to be pretty aggressive around the shuffle area.

Sometimes your hear the shuffle noise but as the car has a map sensor it will not upset the power delivery


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## Nigel-Power (Dec 16, 2009)

I haven't experienced no noticeable shuffle from the 2835's I was running. The power delivery each and every time was electric.. very aggressive. 2.8L stroker


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

2835's are that big they dont suffer shuffle we have found.


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## RonniNielsen (Jan 14, 2011)

[email protected] M/S said:


> You car will need the ignition map optimising , I have tuned a few cars with -10's (GT-RS's) the ignition map needs to be pretty aggressive around the shuffle area.
> 
> Sometimes your hear the shuffle noise but as the car has a map sensor it will not upset the power delivery


Cheers about that, as said, its only been mapped for me to break in the engine, but i will tell him about beein some how agressive around the area, its quite annoing when driving on highways :/

its far better though with the mapsensor, as it doesent affect it 

Ron


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

Marko R1 said:


> i have kept in touch with the guy who bought my old gtr which was a 2.6ltr with hks gtrs's...with the power fc & afm's in place, the shuffle was incredible - like a train!
> 
> he then switched the ecu with a vipec & removed the afm's, since then it has not shuffled once & in fact he cant get it to shuffle...those afm's do weird & wonderful things


This is quite ironic but true - I actually ended up buying back the gtr which I refer to, as above. With the vipec and afms removed it does shuffle...heeeeelp!


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

a friend here in Cyprus with an r33 gtr and HKS GTRS used to have a bit problem with the car shuffling during the brake in , now the car he told me that performs very well he have fitted the vpro with map sensor, he have the hks full induction kit ,and shorter gears cause he have fitted the getrag shuffle is gone but not totally completed even though the engine is a 2.6l


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

Can the gtr's be modified in anyway to overcome this? What causes the shuffle? Compressor wheel is too large?


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## Lamb (Sep 25, 2003)

The HKS manifolds with the balancer pipe will aid shuffle ..... are you guys running these?


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## Marko R1 (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm running factory manifolds. Yes I've heard that the balance pipe aids shuffle.


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## Hakosukajd (May 3, 2010)

Lamb said:


> The HKS manifolds with the balancer pipe will aid shuffle ..... are you guys running these?


I'll let you know in November....when I plan to pull my engine and do some other work (to include installing this manifold that I nabbed from a friend).

I have 2540's, NISMO AFMs, Hard Pipe kit, Poncams (B), APEX'I filters, on a PowerFC. 

Before I left Japan, I had it tuned by a subcontractor for Mine's on a stock ECU and he was able to work magic. No shuffle, unbelievably clean AFR graphs and good power delivery (Only difference was stock cams, and had HKS Podfilters). 

Car was stolen and some things parted (including my ECU...grrr) so put in PFC with datalogit, cams, and Apex'i filter kit. Audible (and tactile) shuffle when moving to part throttle after accelerating. As KISMET said, could mitigate by easing off the throttle and bring back on boost slowly and then moving throttle where I needed it. Got to be a pain in the ass in the area I lived in Cali as there were lots of hills where the shuffle would resurface quite easily. Playing with timing and AFRs at part throttle I was able to get most of it out, but it would cause me to lose some kick when accelerating from steady state at part throttle. 

Luckily, a friend of mine was moving and parting out his 32, and didn't want to move a lot of that stuff with him...so i got a "decent" deal on the manifold which I will put in with a set of -5's when I get back from deployment...

I'll let you know how it goes...


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

Mookistar said:


> in addition
> 
> on the motorway
> 
> ...


that's one question answered without asking. Maybe Glenn has a point here about searching stuff first.

This shuffle thing is a pain in the arse when you are on a long journey. It's made worse when the passenger seat is occupied.


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## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

Still not entirely sure what shuffle is! 

If I'm part throttle on the motorway and lift off a little but not completely the engine jerks and is quite annoying to be honest, you sort of have to accelerate and fully release the throttle. Is this shuffle..??


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## fourtoes (Feb 27, 2003)

Yes, it makes a sort of see saw wooshing sound too!
Bloody annoying when it happens!

Bob


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## carbonfootprint (Apr 21, 2010)

Ok I shuffle too then with stock turbos just more boost and a aftermarket ecu - mines stage 1 apparently - I think this is the problem!


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Lamb said:


> The HKS manifolds with the balancer pipe will aid shuffle ..... are you guys running these?


they also crack for fun, which is costly....


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## Xanatos69 (Sep 30, 2009)

BCNR33 with stage 1 mods. Have shuffling under light boost when ascending hills on the highways.


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## Bardabe (Feb 11, 2012)

Mine didn't shuffle when i took her appart, we will see if she shuffles after i put her back together. mods waiting to go on are. 

Mine's Downpipe, Nismo Exhaust, Making Intercooler Harpipe kid, making custom intake hard pipes, also Modifying the Twin Turbo pipe, 

still trying to make up my mind on to what EMS to get. im shuffling between Nisune or PowerFC.


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## jaz (Jan 23, 2010)

Mine is shuffling like mad. Stock turbos, afms and manifolds. Hks pipe kit, apexi filters, hks bov, janspeed stage 1 ecu. 1 bar. 
Thoughts on how I could cure it? 
Maybe a better ecu and map?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Put the stock recirculation valves back on. Air flow metered cars do not like venting boost to atmosphere at certain part throttle / part boost .


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## jaz (Jan 23, 2010)

Ah bugger. All the work to put that hks unit on too lol


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## jaycabs (Nov 16, 2007)

Like ive said before mine use to shuffle like mad but after it was remapped by rk tuning quite some time ago the shuffle was gone . And mine was with hks 2530's , hks hard pipes , hks bov's


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

jaz said:


> Ah bugger. All the work to put that hks unit on too lol


Here is something I wrote maybe 18 years ago, some may be irrelevant / out of context, but the gist of it is still relevant to this:

The following is based on my Skyline experience, with air usage
measured by air flow meters before the turbos. It is not applicable to
cars that soley use a MAP sensor and throttle angle for air measurement .
To recap I put in a bigger intercooler and the standard Skyline duct
that runs across the lower front of the car taking dumped air from the
2 blow off valves to the intake between the air flow meters and the
twin turbo inlets was masking air exiting the lower 4 rows of the new
IC. 

Having spent a good deal of money on this item it pained me to see some
of effectively blanked off. So I decided to blank the inlet off
altogether where the cross pipe entered the turbo inlet ducting, remove
the cross pipe and vent to atmosphere. The dump valves were being held
open at idle by the idle vacuum level, so after ages of pondering i
made a set up of solenoids to control when vacuum was applied to the
dump valves. This set up worked perfectly. *HOWEVER* a much more
serious problem occurred, which any similarly inducted turbo car will
potentially suffer if the boost air is dumped to atmosphere rather than
as standard into the air intakes after the AFM (s). On the overrun,
after a period of boost running, the standard set up will recirculate
the excess boost back into the turbos, through the IC, and back through
the dump valves to the turbo inlet again until the turbos inertia has
slowed them to the point of little or no boost. The AFM's do not see
any more air entering the engine, as it is being recirculated. 

However, when we dump to atmosphere, that air is lost from the system
and the turbos draw in fresh air via the AFM (s). This causes the
engine to go mad rich, as the throttles are closed and no fuel is
really needed. Hence the black smoke seen on the overrun after my mods.
Worse still was a noticeable but very short period of detonation when
coming hard back on the throttle. This puzzled me totally, then it
dawned. As the fuel system started working normally again the Lambda
sensor "caught up" with what was happening, saw a very overly rich
mixture, and shut down the injector pulse width, creating a very lean
mixture, causing a brief, but very dangerous period of detonation!

I spent the afternoon and evening making new bracketry for the IC, new
hoses and adaptors and shifting the IC forward that critical 40 mm or
so, enabling me to fit the original moulded duct from the BOV's behind
the IC without blocking it. Quite a lot of work and fabrication...
However, the mod I was planning could well have caused damage, and is
certainly something to be very aware of if one has a similar AFM pre
turbo set up changed to dump boost to atmosphere. The type of BOV
matters not, it's the fact that the air no longer re circulates but is
lost from the system, confusing the AFM (s) into thinking the engine is
wanting more air/fuel mixture. An oscilloscope on the O2 sensors
confirmed what was happening. We live and learn, often the hard way,
but in this case not as hard a lesson as it might have been. I hope
this helps, I searched the web long and hard for references to BOV
problems, and failed to find any details of why dumping to atmosphere on
none MAP sensor systems, that aren't mapped for this, is potentially
dangerous.

I can now finally make some proper seals to make sure all air entering
the radiator ducting passes through the IC, something HKS totally fail
to address, at the moment most air will go around rather than through
the IC core.


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## jaz (Jan 23, 2010)

Awesome Chris. Much appreciated. 

What if the bov/bovs were removed? Do we need them? I know one or two cars that don't run them without any problems


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I have not run a blow off or recirculation valve on any turbo engine for 20 years. People have this incorrect assumption they are there to improve spool on gear changes, or throttle lift / re-application. They do nothing of the sort. If they did, wouldn't all the MEGA money Group C turbo engines have run them? The 1500 cc F1 turbo era engines? The World Rally Championship engines? They didn't, because Bosch initially created the recirculation valve for Saab, for very different reasons than performance. It was because Saab felt whooshing noises would lead to both owner dislike, and mis-assumption that something was wrong, when they introduced the "new fangled" turbo engines in the early 900 series cars. The Yank Oldsmobile Jet Fire and the Chevrolet Corvairs, were so crude and had so little boost you probably couldn't hear the reversion anyway, and the Yanks were years behind Europe with turbo technology  BMW also used the Bosh recirculation valve on their 2002 turbo. It then became mainstream in a plethora of other makes. The misapprehension that they reduce lag, and help performance has given the makers of "blow off valves" a hugely lucrative market, and made every urban High Street a riot of silly noises, basically advertising the owner's ignorance, on a Saturday night.


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## alvise (Sep 2, 2016)

fourtoes said:


> Does anyone in the South West, South, South Midlands of the UK still have shuffle?
> If so drop me a pm please.:thumbsup:
> Cheers
> 
> bob


Yes mine does. What details do you want in the pm?


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## jsluck (Jul 3, 2015)

Interesting thread this, as mine does it too, and it's bloody annoying.
Still on AFMs with a Apexi PFC. 

John


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