# Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at 'Ring



## Hugo (Oct 1, 2007)

> *Porsche has accused Nissan of cheating in the GT-R's record bid at the Nurburgring racetrack.*
> 
> Porsche has just run its own back-to-back tests with the Japanese company's GT-R supercar and says it could not get within 25 seconds of Nissan's claimed record time of seven minutes 29 seconds in April.
> 
> ...


Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at Nurburgring | carsguide.com.au

WTF!


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## xaero1 (Feb 9, 2004)

Well how can they explain the results of countless magazine tests where the GTR is quicker than the 911 turbo around other tracks?


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

This is crazy. Going round internet forums it's pretty obvious that Porsche actually have some people on the payroll trolling for them. It's crazy funny. Having an inferior car is one thing but turning your company into a laughing stock is another.


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

xaero1 said:


> Well how can they explain the results of countless magazine tests where the GTR is quicker than the 911 turbo around other tracks?


Well obviously as part of a global conspiracy Nissan have details of every test and comparison that is going to happen .

They have commissioned a number of special holographicly camourflaged vans full of special tyres which turn up and change the tyres before each test. 
Whilst the the testers are kept busy by scantily clad japanese models (hidden in the van) these tyres are swiftly replaced without anyone realising it . 

Obvious surley


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## Yakozan (May 23, 2005)

ex F1 driver versus engineer?
Ofcourse he'll be slower. Not to mention he's very familiar with Porsches and probobly not the GTR.

they also compare US model versus JDM model.
What tyres did the car have? Bridsgestones? running 95Ron fuel?

I think it's pretty pathetic by porsche to do this. But I guess they have to do something about the GTR.


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## Armed English (Mar 18, 2008)

:blahblah:

They were tested within 2 hours of each other. But it was snowing when the GTR went round.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Sport Auto ran 7:50 in the GTR on a partially wet track anyway. That's within 21s, and that was before the Euro suspension tweaks, i.e. with the 7:38 car. So what exactly is Porsche's point here? Why don't they invest in improving their car instead of PR campaigns, or at least put the money into baby oil to ease their pain.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Interested to hear Cem's thoughts.


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## Bodi (Dec 23, 2007)

In an around about way all they are doing is giving the GTR more exposure. People will now go out to prove them wrong again and again and show what the GTR is capable of doing and giving Porsche a spanking time and time again.

It's a toys and pram issue :squintdan


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## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

It'd be good to hear what Nissan has to say about that... But with the "Nissan conspiracy" all around the world I was surprised that the article appeared on the internet!


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

obviously, Porsche is taking a page from the Ferrari F1 playbook...if you can't be faster on the track, whine and complain that you've been cheated! :chuckle:


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

The fact that they have gone to press with this in the first place says something about the GT-R...


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

moleman said:


> Interested to hear Cem's thoughts.


He was the engineer driving the lap . . . . :chuckle:


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

LOL this is so funny:chuckle:


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## trondhla (Oct 1, 2003)

Did Top Gear cheat too when they managed 1'19,7?
:runaway:


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey guys... 
[Visual Homage mode on]
Porsche did the testing. They are an established racing company. Of course, their methods are objective and impartial and beyond question.
[Visual Homage mode off]

hehe

In other Breaking News:

Coke says Pepsi tastes off compared to the REAL THING.

You think?


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## GTRJack (Aug 27, 2005)

Is this sad or funny?! I am confused....


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Totally agree with Porsche here. After all they are German and should know ther German roads better than any 'driving on the left' kinda people. Not only that Porsche are famous for testing at the Ring and regularly do it so they must be better at it than anyone else. Obviously the fact the other car had things in the wrong place - engine at the front, gearbox under the seat - is something any well respecting German driver with countless years experience of driving a rear engined car could get used to even before he's had time to chomp his way though his weiner schnitzel. And if that wasn't enough; that video of the car, you know the in car footage? Well it was filmed on a Japanese camcorder too! So Sony must have been in on the deal the while time!


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

I vaguely recall Porsche themselves used a much grippier tire in one of their 'Ring runs years ago and it was found out, so they later provided the grippier tire as a factory option to get around the problem.

I know I didn't dream this up.


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## WoREoD (Apr 27, 2008)

I first read this at work and giggled about it on and off all the way home......... they must be desperate to find out what's suddenly happened to them....... 

Now I'm sure the Porsche driver wouldn't have driven deliberately slowly (would he?) but the GT-R is a very different car and requires a different driving approach - not something you pick up in a few laps I think.

Perhaps they should stop worrying about beating the time but more about reducing their prices - tee-hee!!


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## WoREoD (Apr 27, 2008)

Oh, and a p.s. Given their car must have been an import, I hope they remembered to get the speed limiter turned off - tee-hee again......


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

trondhla said:


> Did Top Gear cheat too when they managed 1'19,7?
> :runaway:



yes maybe i was in on it too, that's how I got the time exactly right in the sweepstake even before top gear tested the car :chuckle:


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

let's wait for a decent test.
A friend of mine is workng at audi and they too have a GTR to test around. So the rivals just check out each other and try to learn from each other.
I fin dit amusing that porsche was shocked so badly that they bought a GTR to check it out.
I think you can cut some % off the porsche time and add some % on the nissan time and you get the right time.


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## WoREoD (Apr 27, 2008)

On a more serious note then my last posts I must admit I would like to see some times from Dirk Schoysman (sorry if I've spelt that wrong). He was supposed to be testing with Suzuki-san so a comparison would be good to see..........


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

...I've spoken to him...blood from a stone, believe me.

lol


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## neilstafford (Apr 3, 2005)

not bitter and twisted at all then, those porsche chaps


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

neilstafford said:


> not bitter and twisted at all then, those porsche chaps


I'm not surprised they are bitter.

Porker would have been one of my options if GTR hadn't happened by!

I believe it is faster than 911T etc, but given it costs only 50k, I couldn't care if it is actually a bit slower round the Ring than quoted.

Some of the Ring GTRs did look like they were running a little rich though.


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## baphi (Oct 31, 2005)

and another video evidence :chuckle:

I lost count of them ...

CAR's performance car of the year -- Time Trials

I must be the tyres again ... or the wind ... or ... the sound system ... !?


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

OK guys, putting aside loyalty inspired prejudices (which always provoke frustratingly blinkered points of view), I think the above article probably did come from Porsche, lately they've been making quite a few controversial public statements of late (Porsche v Ken Livingstone anyone??). 

For the GTR to only just break the 8min mark on the ring is a fairly substantial claim to make and I'm not inclined to believe it. As somebody has already said, other publications have tested this car against the clock and it's always blown away the competition. There have been chasms between times when tested against other rivals, so frankly, if Porsche are getting shite times then chances are they need to get someone other than the mechanic to do official Porsche sanctioned lap times!!

However, Nissan are known for being secretive and almost sneaky. I wouldn't run it past them to take advantage of any given situation. Lightened? Different tyres? Increased boost? I remember when I was at the N24 race with a few friends and there was a Nissan Skyline GTR Nur there at the ring - rumours abound that it was there to improve its fabled Ring time. When we approached the cars, we were literally shoo'd away and shunned from getting close to the vehicle. They were especially secretive about what was in the boot. So no, I wouldn't run it past them.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

baphi said:


> and another video evidence :chuckle:
> 
> I lost count of them ...
> 
> ...


Great vid, once again the race drivers love the car on the track - apart from that Italian bloke who can't handle 4WD.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

In my completely personal view

German's always they believe they have better technology (that English radar is not important~1940)

The Japanese would have had base model (lightest), shaved dunlop tyres (better than Bridgestones) and a killer driver, bit like the zero

You would of thought the axis powers would get on better

Porkers are nice to drive but are very different to GTR's, it would take a while or good driver to get the best out of it


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

I think it is an ill thought out move by Porsche as it could seriously backfire on them. I don't even think they had to say anything as most of their business in the Nissan's price range (outside of the USA) is very much badge driven anyhow.


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## Ged (Jun 29, 2001)

Lighten up on the mechanic he was tired as he had been moonlighting perfecting a state of the art pit release light system for Ferrari.


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## AlanN (Dec 10, 2007)

Guys I think you've all missed a point here...the Porsche article states that the porkers ran their 'ring laps on "Michelin Sport Cups".
Anyone who knows their tyres also knows this is hardly a ROAD tyre...it is the very "semi slick" they are accusing Nissan of using IMHO.

Anyone got any idea what tyres the Nissans are actually setting these time on 
opcorn:


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## Godspd (Dec 12, 2001)

I am looking forward to Nissan's response to this claim.


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## 2rismo (Jun 29, 2006)

I hope their response is a 7:32 - on run-flats.


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## dwreid (Mar 2, 2008)

axolotl said:


> yes maybe i was in on it too, that's how I got the time exactly right in the sweepstake even before top gear tested the car :chuckle:


Ahaa, thought so axolotl you've finally confessed. I knew there was no way I could have been 0.1 secs out when I only came second in the sweepstake. :chuckle:

My thoughts on the comments, perhaps nothing to do with the GT-R v 911 debate but perhaps Porsche trying to fling some mud the way of the GT-R and discredit it before Porsche launch their first true 4 seater sports car, the Panamera. Panamera preview website just launched recently and car to be launched in Geneva 2009.


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the huge reasons why the R35 is better is its AWD system and power delivery. But most of all the actuall friction is reduced by alot.

also, i know a few of you guys actually talk to nissan. I want you to talk to them and find out if its true... you can keep it to yourself or PM me the thanks, but, I belive Nissan is going to run the ring again for a possibly even faster time.

I belive they are going to do some more upgrading - like they did with the bushings and various other small things just like they did with the latest time at 7:29


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Robbie J said:


> In my completely personal view
> 
> German's always they believe they have better technology (that English radar is not important~1940)
> 
> ...


Or let me formulate it better :

All our german friends on here might agree with me on this. That especialy the german press (Mags, Internet and TV) are so completely arrogant and not to even say nationalist when it comes to talk about their cars.
Expecially the mags. AutoBild, AutoZeitung and Auto Motor und Sport tend to allways praise the german industry and slaughter the rest. Well at first sight this isn't something new , there are many other mags in other countries who do the same style of articles . . . but it's the kind of brainwashing language they choose that makes them complete ignorants.

The UK press (Top Gear) allways bashes many cars , but you allways have a certain amount of subtile humor and satire in thoses words, so they might upset at first sight, but when you think about it, it is well constructed journalisme. (which let's the reader formulate his own opinion)

The german car press looks like a battlefield where the german journalist and editors have to defend the german industry against the rest of the world. Many articles start like:
" This marketplace is still in our hands"
" They can't take this out from our hands"
" We not have anything to fear against theses . . ."
" Our Golf, Our 330i our, our, our . . . ."
We, We ,WE, WE, and ****ing WE! 

It's cheap journalisme, ignorant protective narration and at the top of that young writers that can't even write their own name correctly.


Now why in gods name should the Porsche marketing office be any different from the rest of the german press? They will do everything to kill the GTR influence in germany . Because the german car industry is on a lost path, their cars are too expensive, no options, not more reliable then cheaper makers from other countries ex . . . . it's a struggleing to keep the premium image alive, because only like this the germans can swallow a full option 320i! A 80kEuro priced super car that spankes more then double expensive german performance cars, is very bad for the general image!


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

^^ so right 
The german press AND motor TV shows are all biased and praise the german cars.
When it comes to a comparison between 3 sport sedans, BMW M3, Merc AMG CLK55 and the Lexus ISF you can bet the result would be like it was in the last 10 years.
The bmw is for the sporty driver but very closely misses 1st place, the merc takes it advantage out of the exprerience over the last years and have build a fantastic car, so comfortable,with such a strong engine...place 1, the lexus, well the japanese have made a great car with a superb engine, very low emission, the best driving/handling/accelleration, but the plastic interior bits look and feel cheap, so...3rd place.

And I'm sure that with that ad Porsche could keep some cutomers who already thought of changing.


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## TKH (Sep 13, 2008)

Porsche like all selling cars are having a torrid time however their plight is magnified by several factors the introduction of the R8 what would the R8 buyers have previously bought ? and now a bloody Nissan has come and stolen the headlines and deservedly so

So what does Porsche do it has 3 obvious options (1. Add more power to existing cars dangerous but easy(GT2)2.Slag off main rivals 3. start building 4 door cars realising the game is up on 40 year old technology). Or do all three

It is like Vettel vs Coultard sad but inevitable:wavey:

The market is down 30% Porsche is down 50% and the que of stockbrokers etc is a little shorter or maybe just a little smarter few cars will command a premium next year but I know one that will

All is not over for Porsche though as they have just aquired the controlling share in VW so they can ensure the R8 gets no better or faster:chuckle:

When it all comes down to it Nissan have built a masterpiece at an amzing Value price which on 80 % of damp UK euro roads will show them the way including one very famous road IMHO.

LOL
TKH


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## Godspd (Dec 12, 2001)

Let's not forget that CEO Goshn himself announced the record of 7:29, and not some product engineer.


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## CSL (Jan 18, 2007)

Cheating is good, it helps sell cars.
As long as the new GT-R doesn`t fall apart or Nissan run away from warranty claims then this truly is "the car" to have........Its dynamic looks, the huge power and the fantastically cheap price compared to its rivals makes the R35 GT-R a God already.

As a track day car,Cems 997 GT3 is something else and worth every penny. Please don`t compare the Porsche GT cars to the GT-R.

H.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

*Nissan accuses Porsche of cheating!*

Counter claim:



> Apparently Nissan who up until now have remained quiet have responded by counter-accusing Porsche of cheating with the GT2 lap time. "Their 7:32 lap simply is not possible in a stock GT2," barked chief Nissan Test Engineer General Kobayashi. "Our best driver has driven back-to-back laps with the GT2 and Micra and the GT2 has come out 30 seconds behind on average." Nissan's financial director Wado Cashcou then chimed in accusing Porsche of sabotaging their budget. "If only we'd known that 911s were this slow we could have avoided wasting reems of cash developing a car like the GTR. The fact was that the base Micra was a stronger performer and still is. I am unable to understand how this German company has retained such a strong market position over the years. I can only conclude that they are aliens."


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

That's clearly made up.


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## GT300 (Jul 19, 2003)

hahahaha


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## avhbi (Apr 5, 2007)

All car companies buy the opposition, test them and give them a good thrashing then take them apart and measure stuff.

Worst thing is they are never put back together and are scrapped.......

I just seen a brand new Porsche GT3 go down this route and I must admit I shed a little tear.


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## BigNige (Jun 1, 2008)

there's a cracking write up of the gtr in the 'top gear supercars' mag, summer 2008, special collectors annual.
They drive a gtr and 911 turbo back-to-back, and the gtr wins again. totally.

"Forget all that you know. The gtr hasn't just moved the goal posts, it's obliterated them. Bill Thomas is overwhelmed" 

etc etc etc they love it!:clap:


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## GTRJack (Aug 27, 2005)

This shitty artcle claming Nissan cheated has made all the way to the Norwegian biggest news paper.

Nissan need to respond to this!!!


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## Rostampoor (Nov 20, 2006)

Then how can they explain all the other tests that have been done? With the GTR at top.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

GTRJack said:


> This shitty artcle claming Nissan cheated has made all the way to the Norwegian biggest news paper.
> 
> Nissan need to respond to this!!!


They could respond by laughing their arse off.

Perhaps Porsche would like to explain why the GTR comprehensively beats the 997TT and GT3 in multiple tests across 3 different continents.


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

nissan already responded to this crap, they dont need to do anything in response.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

didn't they get accused of cheating when they did the first sub 8 minute lap in the 33?

mook


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

Mookistar said:


> didn't they get accused of cheating when they did the first sub 8 minute lap in the 33?


Yes, and this is the problem here I think - i.e. If they cheated once, they can cheat again.

8 minutes was quite a benchmark for a road car and rumours were abound that the car was not stock. Everyone later seemed to ignore the fact that Best Motoring did an 8'01 in their own stock 33.

Maybe we can clear up if that 33 was stock or not in a few weeks time, ..........


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## Thrust (Jun 8, 2004)

It's fine to accuse Nissan of cheating because Porsche know that the Japanese tend not to be litigious.

If Nissan accused Porsche of cheating, we'd have a court case and a half on our hands... imho


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

moleman said:


> Maybe we can clear up if that 33 was stock or not in a few weeks time, ..........


Are you hinting insider info here Iain??

If so I'd refer you back to one of your previous comments:



moleman said:


> ...I've spoken to him...blood from a stone, believe me.



Good luck though.


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

On previous occasions I have not had Mook to help me hold him and Shane to hit him. lol


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

That reminds me, i'll pack them bungee straps and gaffer tape

mook


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## Nocturnal (Nov 5, 2004)

Thrust said:


> It's fine to accuse Nissan of cheating because Porsche know that the Japanese tend not to be litigious.
> 
> If Nissan accused Porsche of cheating, we'd have a court case and a half on our hands... imho


As Nissan now is alot more European then before... it would be funny to see the headline "Porsche to pay Nissan 5 million Euros over slanter comments" or something like that. :chuckle:


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Nocturnal said:


> As Nissan now is alot more European then before... it would be funny to see the headline "Porsche to pay Nissan 5 million Euros over slanter comments" or something like that. :chuckle:


Nissan will just buy 60% of the assets from Porsche and own them . .lol:chuckle:


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

gtrlux said:


> Nissan will just buy 60% of the assets from Porsche and own them . .lol:chuckle:


then they will build fasters porsches


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## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

Nissan is coming really strong all around the world, I wonder where Nissan will be in 5 yrs... No.3 maybe


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

If you discount the contribution Nissan made to Renault's bottom line then last year Renault would have made a loss without the income from Nissan. Makes you think.......


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

Scott said:


> Are you hinting insider info here Iain??
> 
> If so I'd refer you back to one of your previous comments:
> 
> ...


Well, regardless This car was already proven stock. adenau has it in the showroom.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

gtrlux said:


> Nissan will just buy 60% of the assets from Porsche and own them . .lol:chuckle:


dunno about that, Porsche bought Volkswagen, it's usually the specialty sports car companies that get bought by the big car-for-the-masses companies...Fiat/Ferrari, Ford/Aston, Audi/Lamborghini, etc...

It costs serious money to make a sports car, especially in limited numbers. I doubt Ferrari earns much money on each car they sell, and any halo car is generally sold at a loss (a Ferrari Enzo RETAILED at $600,000, I don't think that car costs peanuts to make), and the Bugatti Veyron is well-documented to cost well more than $1.5 million to make. 

Yet somehow Porsche manages to have astonishing profit margins on every car they sell. Makes you wonder


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## peterpeter (Feb 24, 2008)

you guys should see some of the shite being spouted on Pistonheads at the moment.
There are no less than 4 threads about the GTR and lap times etc going on simultaneously.

The amount of what seems like hatred and suspicion displayed by some posters towards the GTR is borderline scary. 

Its cool that we are getting what seems to be one of the most controversial cars ever!!

What most of them dont seem to be able to get into their truly thick skulls is that the GTR carries speed into corners so much better than similar cars in its class. They are obsessed with the possibility the car was tuned, has more power. Power has a lot less to do with the GTR times compared to the awesome handling.

Which to me shows that many of them have never driven a car on track before so wouldnt have a clue about how to get quick lap times.

Its amazing how many of them seem to be ignoring the countless reviews and its as if some of them believe that there is a huge conspiracy and that all the test cars presumably all the race academy cars are tweaked!
Where it will all end who knows., but they are whipping themselves up into a right state.

Anyway I cant wait to get the car out on track and kick some rear as that usually shuts people up pretty quickly.


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## Haywire (May 29, 2008)

Apart from the apparent badge snobbery which is unfortunately clearly evident, the biggest question mark raised by GTR detractors is the WEIGHT. Everyone knows the GTR is anything but light and in most peoples experience, including my own, weight kills everything. People cannot accept that with circa 480hp and 1700kg plus that this car can do what it does. Even as a pre-order customer I do have my doubts, despite my trip round Silverstone. The DCT, AWD and weight distribution all positively contribute but having looked at this months EVO I have some difficulty understanding how the GTR can get within 5-6 seconds (over 13 odd miles) of the Zonda F, Carrera GT, Enzo and MC12.

Whether it can or not, I cant wait for mine.


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## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

It's also the power curve which is pretty impressive; very flat/high torque across the rev range. This is more telling then just the peak bhp figure.


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

If I ever get my GTR to the Ring, I expect it will take me about 20 minutes to get round.

That will be because I can't drive it properly.


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## Rostampoor (Nov 20, 2006)

Zed Ed said:


> If I ever get my GTR to the Ring, I expect it will take me about 20 minutes to get round.
> 
> That will be because I can't drive it properly.


That's a very good point here.


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## (00\skyline/00) (Feb 23, 2007)

Lots of different road test have already proven that the GT-R is much faster than the Porsche GT2. Check out this Video. All the cars are standard and the Porsche still lost.

CAR's performance car of the year -- Time Trials- Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnmp...n-gt-r-vs-porsche-911-turbo-fifth-gear-video/

They just cant take it that the GTR is faster.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Gtr costs so much less and Porsche and other over priced super car companies dont like it " No way for 50 K " ! Up yours From Nissan :clap:


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

kismetcapitan said:


> Yet somehow Porsche manages to have astonishing profit margins on every car they sell. Makes you wonder


5% of Porsche income is from the cars sale, 95% comes from different sources. (Porsche frenchize-motorsports investement ex . . .)

I will try to find that quote, was in a german mag.


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## Aerodramatics (Feb 10, 2008)

*Easy Peezy, Lemon-Squeezy*



Zed Ed said:


> If I ever get my GTR to the Ring, I expect it will take me about 20 minutes to get round.
> 
> That will be because I can't drive it properly.


I'd reckon we could all do a sub ten minute lap with no use of talent at all. Steady through the corners and a bit of juice on the straights, brake & gear in good time for each bend, no worries... :squintdan :thumbsup:


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

Aerodramatics said:


> I'd reckon we could all do a sub ten minute lap with no use of talent at all. Steady through the corners and a bit of juice on the straights, brake & gear in good time for each bend, no worries... :squintdan :thumbsup:


you might change your mind if you had witnessed the performance of the 6th September a.m. Race Academy Titanium team.

Luckiest man on the planet is Davros, who has never had to give me a test drive.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Who give's a shit. Get your R35, pull up at the lights next to a (obviously) much quicker GT2, race him away and leave him standing. Then at the next set just wind the window down and say

"Yeah I know your car's quicker. You must just be a shit driver!" :chuckle:


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## freakazoid3 (Jan 19, 2008)

^^LOL :chuckle:


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Fuggles said:


> Who give's a shit. Get your R35, pull up at the lights next to a (obviously) much quicker GT2, race him away and leave him standing. Then at the next set just wind the window down and say
> 
> "Yeah I know your car's quicker. You must just be a shit driver!" :chuckle:


And then proceed to drive to the nearest dealer to fix the transmission you just broke trying to prove a point


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

hahahaha


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> Who give's a shit. Get your R35, pull up at the lights next to a (obviously) much quicker GT2, race him away and leave him standing. Then at the next set just wind the window down and say
> 
> "Yeah I know your car's quicker. You must just be a shit driver!" :chuckle:


do we condone street racing now John?
























mook


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Mookistar said:


> do we condone street racing now John?


Certainly not officially.


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> And then proceed to drive to the nearest dealer to fix the transmission you just broke trying to prove a point


I don't want to start any witch hunt here, but,..................

BURN HIM!!!!!!!!!!:flame::flame::flame::flame: He's one of THEM!!!!! 

He's even left a subtle clue in his avatar.

(Once he has handed over the site first of course  )


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> And then proceed to drive to the nearest dealer to fix the transmission you just broke trying to prove a point


Whoever said anything about using launch control? Should be able to beat them pesky squished VWs any time!


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Fuggles said:


> Whoever said anything about using launch control? Should be able to beat them pesky squished VWs any time!


Sorry John, but now you're dreaming, The 997 GT2 will destroy the GTR in a straight-line and the launch control that it has it's much easier to access, it doesn't even use any buttons,just automatically holds the revs when the clutch is depressed in 1st gear and the engine is revved. Does require that the driver changes gear though - bit old fashioned


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

TBH, I really don't care. If people want to get that upset then that's their choice. A lot of other people have put the two cars head to head and most have come to the same conclusion. If it was the other way around I sure wouldn't be losing sleep over it. People buy cars for more than just one statistic and I don't see the new GT-R or the current GT2 being any different


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

> The 997 GT2 will destroy the GTR in a straight-line


GT2 should be quicker in a straight line assuming it can get the power down.
However at anglesey it is slower.

CAR's performance car of the year -- Time Trials- Video


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

Porsche equipped the GT2 press car with Pilot Sports Cup semi slicks in the CAR shootout. 

That plus the RWD probably didn't help with traction on a slippery track.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Fuggles said:


> TBH, I really don't care.


So why post such a provocative statement in the first place then??


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

paul__k said:


> GT2 should be quicker in a straight line assuming it can get the power down.
> However at anglesey it is slower.
> 
> CAR's performance car of the year -- Time Trials- Video


What I can say for certain, having owned a 997GT2 (just sold it) and having driven the R35 at the GTR Acadamy, is that their overall performance is very similar, but the GTR is much much easier to drive and more confidence inspiring.

The relative price tags make it a laughable comparison anyway, My GT2 cost me £137k, my GTR will be £57k. The GT2 might be a few percent better, but at 240% of the price it damn well should be. Thats what makes the GTR so remarkable, not whether it is a few seconds faster or slower than a GT2, but that it's that close at that price.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Guy said:


> So why post such a provocative statement in the first place then??


1) I didn't start the thread
2) both my posts are in jest: a) Sony must be in on the video conspiracy. b) racing away from the lights. 


Or do you mean the "who gives a...."? good grief one piece of data amongst a forest of information and everyone gets upperty. Chill!!!!!


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

> Apart from the apparent badge snobbery which is unfortunately clearly evident, the biggest question mark raised by GTR detractors is the WEIGHT. Everyone knows the GTR is anything but light and in most peoples experience, including my own, weight kills everything. People cannot accept that with circa 480hp and 1700kg plus that this car can do what it does. Even as a pre-order customer I do have my doubts, despite my trip round Silverstone. The DCT, AWD and weight distribution all positively contribute but having looked at this months EVO I have some difficulty understanding how the GTR can get within 5-6 seconds (over 13 odd miles) of the Zonda F, Carrera GT, Enzo and MC12.


traction on corners that means you can keep speed up, trick gearbox doesn't loses much when you change gear

John was following in my simular powered R33 today but instant gear changes on the R35 made it easier to pull away

Its a fun thread, why do some people take this so seriously, Porsche makes lots of money on its cars and is not happy with Nissan eating its lunch. My team sells to Porsche, its true they are not happy + credit crunch/oil prices. It's not good for this sector at the moment

Nissan makes lots of money on R35, BTW


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

> September Auto Sales: Porsche US sales fall
> Wednesday October 1, 2:15 pm ET
> Porsche Cars North America September sales slide as economic woes slam luxury automaker
> 
> ...


GTR launched few months earlier in the US?


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Guy said:


> What I can say for certain, having owned a 997GT2 (just sold it) and having driven the R35 at the GTR Acadamy, is that their overall performance is very similar, but the GTR is much much easier to drive and more confidence inspiring.
> 
> The relative price tags make it a laughable comparison anyway, My GT2 cost me £137k, my GTR will be £57k. The GT2 might be a few percent better, but at 240% of the price it damn well should be. Thats what makes the GTR so remarkable, not whether it is a few seconds faster or slower than a GT2, but that it's that close at that price.


Hi Guy, what made you get rid of the GT2 so soon?


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Howsie said:


> Hi Guy, what made you get rid of the GT2 so soon?


I just felt it was about to drop in value, given the current market and also whilst it's good it's never going to be a Porsche classic the way that the GT3RS is for instance. Plus I've still got the other GT2 and far too many other cars, so thought this was best offloaded to slightly reduce numbers. I also was able to get over list for it and wanted to capture that value whilst it lasted.

So primarily driven by economics rather than issues with the car.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

You've no heart Guy, none at all.  How's the CSL btw? They seem to be holding their value rather well at the moment.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Howsie said:


> You've no heart Guy, none at all.  How's the CSL btw? They seem to be holding their value rather well at the moment.


I sold the black one and bought a silver/grey one with only 3,800 miles on it. I mostly drive the Alpina B5 on road these days though, fast yet discreet....


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Guy said:


> What I can say for certain, having owned a 997GT2 (just sold it) and having driven the R35 at the GTR Acadamy, is that their overall performance is very similar, but the GTR is much much easier to drive and more confidence inspiring.
> 
> The relative price tags make it a laughable comparison anyway, My GT2 cost me £137k, my GTR will be £57k. The GT2 might be a few percent better, but at 240% of the price it damn well should be. Thats what makes the GTR so remarkable, not whether it is a few seconds faster or slower than a GT2, but that it's that close at that price.


That's actually what I wanted to hear. And I would even say that the reason the GTR costs 87k less then the GT2 is not that the GT2 has 87k more and better parts on the car or the developpement was carried out on Jupiter.

Nissan made big savings and killed off about 1500 sub Nissan companies in 2000 when Goshn took over. The ones they didn't kill off are the main production suppliers and the performance parts suppliers. Japan has the best hight tech mass production industry in the world, and that is why the GTR can only cost what it cost.
Porsche is no mass production company and I think that the high quality of their cars costs actually, really, that expensive to produce in germany! (without enourmous margins for Porsche, even if they benefit with the premium image of course) . . . . .if they would be a japanese company they would produce the same stuff for half of the price.
That has also nothing to do with Nissan being better then Porsche, it's just an other style of business and industry. Europe has never been chaep and really capable on quality massproduction. Porsche GT2 is a master piece of what a single company Porsche can achieve with what is possible in europe. The GTR is not a Nissan achievement , it's a japanese mosaic of hightech suppliers that can offre hightech parts and production efficiency to Nissan in order to achieve the production of the GTR for 1/3 of the GT2.

Let's stand by the fact that Porsches are the greatest achievement of a single company-groupe (VW) in europe with it's own limits and the R35 the greatest achievement of an entire industry that has never been shy to out source and take what ever it can, from any where to produce hightech for 1/3 of a price of the rest of the world. 

Complete different worlds and approaches.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

Porsche make a lot of money on each car, production in Germany is more expensive than some countries but not that much. There is a big industrial support for car manufactures in Germany, you have BMW, Merc, Man, VW etc etc.

Porsche sell a "premium" package and charge for it

As I said "Porsche make a lot of money on each car fullstop"

R


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Robbie J said:


> Porsche make a lot of money on each car, production in Germany is more expensive than some countries but not that much. There is a big industrial support for car manufactures in Germany, you have BMW, Merc, Man, VW etc etc.
> 
> Porsche sell a "premium" package and charge for it
> 
> ...


Of course they make profit , but overall Porsche doesn't really make big profit with cars. Last year they made about 11Billion Euro Profit, which is actually amazing . .but not from cars only.
From thoses 11 Billions only 1,2 Billions were made from car sales and Porsche related goods. The other 9.8Billions were pure market shares profits and other succesfull businesses (5,9Billions were attribuated to the new value of their 31% shares in VW, Share business made 3,5Billions + other stuff made the rest millions)


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

gtrlux said:


> Porsche GT2 is a master piece of what a single company Porsche can achieve with what is possible in europe. The GTR is not a Nissan achievement , it's a japanese mosaic of hightech suppliers that can offre hightech parts and production efficiency to Nissan in order to achieve the production of the GTR for 1/3 of the GT2.....


What on earth makes you think Porshe do everything in house and don't use/rely on suppliers like Nissan????

Having worked on Porsches, but never for Porshe, I can tell you both companys, and all large OEMs for that matter, work in the same way.


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## Yakozan (May 23, 2005)

Scott said:


> What on earth makes you think Porshe do everything in house and don't use/rely on suppliers like Nissan????
> 
> Having worked on Porsches, but never for Porshe, I can tell you both companys, and all large OEMs for that matter, work in the same way.



I think that GTRlux means that Nissan is so much bigger than just cars. they have alot of other companies under their umbrella they can use to develop parts and get them for good prices.

Nissan Automotive use suppliers just like Porsche. But they have alot of sister companies which they can use for discounted prices unlike Porsche who needs to use alot of "outside" companies.

This is what I thik grlux means 
Didn't know Nissan was so big. I know Toyota and Mitsubishi are.


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## michaelsk (Jul 18, 2007)

Nissans responce:

We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan - drive.com.au



Nissan defends legitimacy of GT-R supercar's record lap time against suspicions raised by rival Porsche. By ANDREW HEASLEY in Paris. 


Nissan GT-R
Nissan has hit back at suspicions raised by Porsche this week that the record Nurburgring lap time set by the GT-R supercar was achieved in anything other than a standard showroom-specification car.

The matter has reached top brass at Nissan, with its European spokesman at the Paris motor show today confirming the matter has gone ''quite high'' up in the company. 

A senior Porsche engineer, August Achleitner, who supervises the development of all 911 sports cars, sparked controversy when he told Australian journalists at the launch of the new 911 Targa in Verona, Italy, this week that they were unable to replicate the record 7 minute 29 second lap time that Nissan claimed the GT-R set in April. 

In the hands of a Porsche chassis engineer, the GT-R was 20 seconds slower than a 911 GT2 and 16 seconds slower than a Porsche 911 Turbo. 

Achleitner questioned whether the GT-R was running a standard set-up on road tyres or perhaps something more track-oriented. 

“Quite simply we're not going to get into a war of words with Porsche,” said Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve. “The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tyres which are available to customers in the showroom.They're not trick tyres – absolutely standard tyres, normal road tyres. 

“The GT-R comes with Bridgestone and Goodyear (Dunlop). One tyre gives slightly better times around the 'Ring. 

“We did it on Dunlop. They're available with the car,” he said. 

He was at a loss to explain the disparity over the lap time differences. 

“I don't know, honestly I can't explain. I don't think it's for us to explain how they didn't match our time,” Mr Reeve said. 

“We absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap. More than that, I can't speculate. I can't explain why they couldn't match the time.” 

“We maintain that ... nothing special was done to the car.” 

He conceded that the controversy might play on the minds of potential GT-R buyers. Fast lap times of the famous 21-kilometre German circuit are increasingy being used by car companies for bragging rights over performance and engineering prowess. 

“The people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly. They going to do an incredible amount of research, they're going to read every single road test that's available in every magazine which is on the internet and they're going to draw their own conclusion. Will it put doubt in their mind? They might find it surprising. In our experience in Europe, the GT-R has widely matched, at least, if not beaten, the 911 Turbo on various track tests. They can draw their own conclusions. 

“We think its performance speaks for itself,'' he said. 

Reeve wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rematch for the world to see. 

“We're considering our options. We're not saying more than that,” he said. 

“This (Porsche's questioning of Nissan's claim) happened two days ago, it was a surprising thing to read in the press, it's important. 

“But let's not blow it out of all proportion. We're not crying about it. We're not going to sook about it. 

“I'm cheeky enough to say it's flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, they want to try it. I guess that's some kind of stamp of approval. 

“It's great to have the competition. We're absolutely proud of the GT-R. It's a fabulous sports car, really epic. 

“The level of performance that it delivers is really so impressive for the price it's positioned at,” he said.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Porsche have got a decent car then


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

Until a completely independent body run their own tests, there will always be people doubting these results. Of course the Nissan test driver is going to be able to push the car to the limit more than that of the Porsche engineer. To settle the contest, we need to fly the Stig to the Ring and test the 911 vs GTR once and for all!

Come on Top Gear, get it sorted!!!


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## Stachi (Jan 26, 2008)

In the End, it's up to each others taste which car to buy. I never bought a car because of test results and even if I have that kind of money to spend, I wouldn't change my way of test driving cars and buying what I like the most.

Marc


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Yakozan said:


> I think that GTRlux means that Nissan is so much bigger than just cars. they have alot of other companies under their umbrella they can use to develop parts and get them for good prices.
> 
> Nissan Automotive use suppliers just like Porsche. But they have alot of sister companies which they can use for discounted prices unlike Porsche who needs to use alot of "outside" companies.
> 
> ...


It's about that. There could be 1000Nissan and 1000variations of the GTR , as you can switch and rely on an evolving japanese industry that grows through standardisation of hightech and new techologies. Same for the hybrid cars from Toyota which rely simply on the advanced hightech market of hybrid engines allready availble before Toyota even thinks about making the Prius. They just pic out from the mass production what thay can use and then order it the way they want it . . . .not the way around.(IS-F anybody?)

Back to topic
I have a few questions:

1) Did Nissan not test a JDM R35 GTR and set the record? I mean they would certainly not have used the gasoil stand next to the ring to test a car that is ment to run high quality japanese gasoil? 
2) Porsche used a US GTR . .ohh they are allready on sale and every one has got one and the US GTR is exactly the same as the JDM GTR tested with the record lap (plus same tires of course) . . .or not?
3) Mickey Mouse has made 567687669laps on the ring with his Golf1, but does that make him the same person then this one:


> Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap.


4) If I buy two R35s and a 350Z for the price of a GT2, does that make me 2,5 times quicker then the GT2?:chuckle:


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

gtrlux said:


> ...... The GTR is not a Nissan achievement , it's a japanese mosaic of hightech suppliers that can offer hightech parts and production efficiency to Nissan


Except that all the initial design work was done in the UK and much of the later design work was done in various countries but most notably Japan and the UK.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Fuggles said:


> Except that all the initial design work was done in the UK and much of the later design work was done in various countries but most notably Japan and the UK.


Right John, I only point out production and how the japanese allways manage to produce a hightech leading product for the 1/3 of the price of the west. Design and research has allways been carried out for most japanese products (not only cars )out side of japan . . . it's a mass production industry that can standarize, reliable and cheap , products that the west may have created in first place , but was unable to produce in any reliable ,profitable form . (Rotary engine, hybrid engine, Vtec-engine, Turbo systhems ex . . . )

Of course as John says the new GTR is not really a pure traditional japanese production concept . . . much has changed since Carlos took over Nissan, which is nothing to regret.

Best combination of two business worlds?


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## monaroCountry (Dec 12, 2006)

Nissan GTR's, the Nurburgring and suspiciously rapid lap times go way back, the first eyebrows having been raised when the R33 GT-R somehow broke eight minutes in standard trim in the mid 1990s.

We know now, of course, that the car in question was fitted with a set of tyres tht could have stuck it to the side of the Eiffel Tower when it set its lap time, and that I'm REASONABLY CERTAIN THEY'VE BEEN AT IT GAIN WITH THE LATEST GT-R'S "RECORD BREAKING" 7MIN 29SEC LAP......

More than that, I've driven the lastest GT-R and although it is quick with capital F, I've also driven the new Porsche 911 GT2 (the car hose record the GT-R has supposedly just beaten) and I'M CERTAIN THAT - IN STNDARD TUNE AND ON FACTORY-FIT TYRES - IT WOULD BE QUICKER THAN THE GT-R AROUND THE 'RING.


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

if you read sutcliffe's more recent review in autocar. i think you'll find his opinion has changed. the nmgb press car on factory tyres soundly thrashed the gallardo 560-4 at the isle of man. i don't believe the press car has been tweaked.....even if nissan had wanted to do so which i doubt very much, they would have known it was too risky as it is so easy these days to test cars outputs especially since they know the magazine has already aired suspicions about it.


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

Autocar Videos - Autocar.co.uk


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

wouldn't you think if nissan was trying to cheat the first thing they would have done is removed the JDM spec speed limiter?


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

something that hasn't yet been mentioned is that, if I remember correctly, the USDM car is DETUNED to 450bhp to deal with lower grade US pump fuel. Not exactly then a fair comparison then is it.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

kismetcapitan said:


> something that hasn't yet been mentioned is that, if I remember correctly, the USDM car is DETUNED to 450bhp to deal with lower grade US pump fuel. Not exactly then a fair comparison then is it.


Nope, it's marginally less powerful than the JDM car but still over the rated output. 

The truth is that Sport Auto and indeed Porsche are crap at driving anything other than Porsches. Hence why Sport Auto went slower on the 'ring in a Scuderia than a GT2. They can't drive anything except Porsches... not well anyway:


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## TheDefiantOne (Jan 30, 2008)

Porsche have allowed their design and engineering to be driven by accountants for years now and they seem genuinely bitter that another company has approached the problem of designing an affordable sports car in a revolutionary way with astounding results.

I've never found the 911 desirable. It's too bland and safe for my tastes and while its design is limited by its legacy I'll never buy one.

Grow up Porsche and get revenge at Nissan by designing better cars. :thumbsup:

Evolution? Pah.


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## obzi (Feb 19, 2008)

*Can i just mention...*

Coincidentally, my wife is often telling me off for trying it on around the ring!


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

obzi said:


> Coincidentally, my wife is often telling me off for trying it on around the ring!


Get a new wife.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

TheDefiantOne said:


> Porsche have allowed their design and engineering to be driven by accountants for years now and they seem genuinely bitter that another company has approached the problem of designing an affordable sports car in a revolutionary way with astounding results.
> 
> .


I am sorry but it is not only now that the japanese come with a revolutionary car to rival Porsche and Ferrari, the two big names amongst super performance cars for the last 40 years. The japanese allways limited them selves to 280HP and allways tried to offre performance cars for the avarage japanese salary man since back in the 80. I mean the Supra, GTR, NSX, RX7, GTO and Evos could have had at least 400+HP back then, and blowing the competition to the oblivion . . . BMW, Audi, Porsche up to Ferrari can only be happy that the japanese makers restricted them selves to their ultra conservative-safty oriented home market in the last 20years . . . which is about to change. And very soon the western performance car market will know how much the western consumers have changed, new generations, who haven't grown up with Quattro, Countach, Testarosso and Samantha Fox posters . . .but with posters of Initial D, Skyline GTR, GranT. and Bangbros . . . . times are changing.


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

Where do Bangbros come into this lux?


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

R33_GTS-t said:


> Where do Bangbros come into this lux?


I tried to find a 2008 equivalent of the 80. Samantha Fox stuff. . . . . basicly in 2008 no 14year old boy gets hot with a pair of tits on a poster anymore , as bangbros is their first link in the web favorites . . .:chuckle:

sorry. . .off topic



(ohh and BB do sell posters . . .)


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## Fuzzy (Jun 2, 2007)

*Nissan say: We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time*

Nissan defends legitimacy of GT-R supercar's record lap time against suspicions raised by rival Porsche. By ANDREW HEASLEY in Paris. 

Nissan has hit back at suspicions raised by Porsche this week that the record Nurburgring lap time set by the GT-R supercar was achieved in anything other than a standard showroom-specification car.

The matter has reached top brass at Nissan, with its European spokesman at the Paris motor show today confirming the matter has gone ''quite high'' up in the company. 

A senior Porsche engineer, August Achleitner, who supervises the development of all 911 sports cars, sparked controversy when he told Australian journalists at the launch of the new 911 Targa in Verona, Italy, this week that they were unable to replicate the record 7 minute 29 second lap time that Nissan claimed the GT-R set in April. 

In the hands of a Porsche chassis engineer, the GT-R was 20 seconds slower than a 911 GT2 and 16 seconds slower than a Porsche 911 Turbo. 

Achleitner questioned whether the GT-R was running a standard set-up on road tyres or perhaps something more track-oriented. 

“Quite simply we're not going to get into a war of words with Porsche,” said Nissan's European spokesman Neil Reeve. “The final word from us is that it was done on absolutely standard tyres which are available to customers in the showroom.They're not trick tyres – absolutely standard tyres, normal road tyres. 

“The GT-R comes with Bridgestone and Goodyear (Dunlop). One tyre gives slightly better times around the 'Ring. 

“We did it on Dunlop. They're available with the car,” he said. 

He was at a loss to explain the disparity over the lap time differences. 

“I don't know, honestly I can't explain. I don't think it's for us to explain how they didn't match our time,” Mr Reeve said. 

“We absolutely maintain (that) Tochio Suzuki - the chief test driver on the GT-R program pounded thousands of laps - he got to know every inch of Nurburgring (circuit) and how the car performs on the Nurburgring and hence set that fabulous lap. More than that, I can't speculate. I can't explain why they couldn't match the time.” 

“We maintain that ... nothing special was done to the car.” 

He conceded that the controversy might play on the minds of potential GT-R buyers. Fast lap times of the famous 21-kilometre German circuit are increasingy being used by car companies for bragging rights over performance and engineering prowess. 

“The people who'd buy a GT-R or 911 Turbo are not the type of people to make a purchase like that lightly. They going to do an incredible amount of research, they're going to read every single road test that's available in every magazine which is on the internet and they're going to draw their own conclusion. Will it put doubt in their mind? They might find it surprising. In our experience in Europe, the GT-R has widely matched, at least, if not beaten, the 911 Turbo on various track tests. They can draw their own conclusions. 

“We think its performance speaks for itself,'' he said. 

Reeve wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rematch for the world to see. 

“We're considering our options. We're not saying more than that,” he said. 

“This (Porsche's questioning of Nissan's claim) happened two days ago, it was a surprising thing to read in the press, it's important. 

“But let's not blow it out of all proportion. We're not crying about it. We're not going to sook about it. 

“I'm cheeky enough to say it's flattering that Porsche have bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, they want to try it. I guess that's some kind of stamp of approval. 

“It's great to have the competition. We're absolutely proud of the GT-R. It's a fabulous sports car, really epic. 

“The level of performance that it delivers is really so impressive for the price it's positioned at,” he said.


We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan - drive.com.au


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## TheDefiantOne (Jan 30, 2008)

gtrlux said:


> I am sorry but it is not only now that the japanese come with a revolutionary car to rival Porsche and Ferrari, the two big names amongst super performance cars for the last 40 years. The japanese allways limited them selves to 280HP and allways tried to offre performance cars for the avarage japanese salary man since back in the 80. I mean the Supra, GTR, NSX, RX7, GTO and Evos could have had at least 400+HP back then, and blowing the competition to the oblivion . . . BMW, Audi, Porsche up to Ferrari can only be happy that the japanese makers restricted them selves to their ultra conservative-safty oriented home market in the last 20years . . . which is about to change. And very soon the western performance car market will know how much the western consumers have changed, new generations, who haven't grown up with Quattro, Countach, Testarosso and Samantha Fox posters . . .but with posters of Initial D, Skyline GTR, GranT. and Bangbros . . . . times are changing.


I didn't mean to imply that this is the first time that Japanese companies have used revolutionary technology in car manufacturing because as you've rightly pointed out many have come and gone with legendary results.

But, and there is a but, look at the efforts of other Japanese manufacturers in the current climate and their results are either disappointing (Lexus IS-F, Impreza STI, EVO X) or non-competitive and canned (Lexus LF-A). Nissan have revolutionised this market with not just a competitor but a LEADER.

The BHP limitation argument is a valid one but some Euro Spec models (Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Evo's etc) were not subject to the same limits as there Japanese counterparts and weren't true supercar killers.


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

thanks nissan for confirming that the dunlops are available with the car We didn't cheat with GT-R 'Ring time, says Nissan - drive.com.au
some of us might hold you to that 
the dunlop is available it is true as original equipment in some countries already but the fact that this is coming from a nissan europe spokesman makes me hopeful that when the finalised spec is announced there might be some choice of tyres available.
Great post by the way Fuzzy :thumbsup:


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

TheDefiantOne said:


> I didn't mean to imply that this is the first time that Japanese companies have used revolutionary technology in car manufacturing because as you've rightly pointed out many have come and gone with legendary results.
> 
> But, and there is a but, look at the efforts of other Japanese manufacturers in the current climate and their results are either disappointing (Lexus IS-F, Impreza STI, EVO X) or non-competitive and canned (Lexus LF-A). Nissan have revolutionised this market with not just a competitor but a LEADER.
> 
> The BHP limitation argument is a valid one but some Euro Spec models (Subaru Impreza, Mitsubishi Evo's etc) were not subject to the same limits as there Japanese counterparts and weren't true supercar killers.


Yeah you are right, beside Nissan there is nobody at the moment with a serious supercar contender.
I think the reason the japanese Scoobies and Evos were still limited to their 280HP (next to the EU-RX7-NSX-Supra . . .) is that there was not enough market share to actually produce the cars in the 400HP dream spec just for outside japan.(not profitable , as this would have been a complete different style of business of how the jap.industry was configured)
Japanese makers build cars for the japanese consumers in first place and then they think what money they can make aboard with the rest of the world. Thanks to some non-jap. pioneers amongst managers who entered japanese makers, we can see since about 10 years now, specific cars build for foreign markets. 

I allways say:Let's wait for Mazda to show the world what they can do with a new RX7, Honda with a new NSX and Toyota with a new Supra/LF-A . .then the regular models, like Evos, RX8s, Integras ex . . will also up the benchmarks in their fields..


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## Huy (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting. 

So, i guess that means all the online video and magazine comparisons where the GTR comes out on top are cheating, too?


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## TheDefiantOne (Jan 30, 2008)

gtrlux said:


> Yeah you are right, beside Nissan there is nobody at the moment with a serious supercar contender.
> I think the reason the japanese Scoobies and Evos were still limited to their 280HP (next to the EU-RX7-NSX-Supra . . .) is that there was not enough market share to actually produce the cars in the 400HP dream spec just for outside japan.(not profitable , as this would have been a complete different style of business of how the jap.industry was configured)
> Japanese makers build cars for the japanese consumers in first place and then they think what money they can make aboard with the rest of the world. Thanks to some non-jap. pioneers amongst managers who entered japanese makers, we can see since about 10 years now, specific cars build for foreign markets.
> 
> I allways say:Let's wait for Mazda to show the world what they can do with a new RX7, Honda with a new NSX and Toyota with a new Supra/LF-A . .then the regular models, like Evos, RX8s, Integras ex . . will also up the benchmarks in their fields..


:thumbsup: Very true and there are some exciting times ahead!


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

Did a search for this old Glenn Nakata analysis from the 7:38 days 

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/87769-nissan-gt-r-nurburgring-lap-analysis.html


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

doggiehowser said:


> Did a search for this old Glenn Nakata analysis from the 7:38 days
> 
> http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/87769-nissan-gt-r-nurburgring-lap-analysis.html


LOL thanks doggie. Have missed that thread last year.

Basicly this data is from which source?, I mean if it can be found on this forum, it would also have been possible for Porsche to analyse it and contradict it's interpretation or originality as a proof. . . . . . ???
Such data sheets are big proves actually . . . at least the 20 secondes gap that Porsche claims is eradicated with this, as this data allows max 1-3 secondes possible time variations.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

so are porsche saying the topgear team cheated too?


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

Glenn was covering the official GTR launch in Oct last year and had access to interviews etc during press briefings. Looks like the data was taken from a camera (looked like flash reflection on the screen).


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

practically speaking, Porsche looks like a gaggle of idiots to make a press statement like this, in the face of overwhelming evidence that the 911 Turbo simply underperforms the GT-R, not by much, but consistently.

But Porsche does have its own clientele, and Porsche loyalists are rather fierce in that loyalty. Just as we're somewhat blinded being Nissan fans, Porschephiles are completely loyal. I imagine Porsche boards have been up in arms at every defeat of the 911 in whatever test, wondering how the hell an overweight JAPANESE car can outperform the venerable 911 Turbo. If you'd paid the money for one, you might even start to get a bit bent out of shape.

But a word from the factory that the GT-Rs 'Ring performance is "unrepeatable" and a whopping 20 seconds off, will go a long way to calm and assure Porsche customers, present and potential, even if it's total bullshit.

In other words, there's the truth, and then there's business. Porsche isn't doing anything that the credit market hasn't already been doing for a decade :chuckle:


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

what are the credentials of the porsche driver? it wasn't walter so who was it? the nissan driver did "thousands" of laps. that's worth 20secs alone over someone who's only done a few hundred.


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## dtp (Jul 8, 2007)

tokyogtr said:


> so are porsche saying the topgear team cheated too?



Everyone is cheating except.............................















































PORSCHE


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## Haywire (May 29, 2008)

I am glad Nissan have acknowledged this obvious slander (!) but this was not an OFFICIAL statement from PAG, just a chassis engineer commenting at a hack launch wasnt it? I have never driven at the ring but the sheer number of variables must mean an allowance of a big variance in times depending on tyre condition, weather around the circuit, familiarity of the car; the list goes on...


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

It's a long lap. A tenth on every corner adds up to nearly 15 full seconds over a lap.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

That DR video is great...

TV, videos, motorsport events, driving techniques | DR TV | DRIVERS REPUBLIC


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

PORSCHE PUBLICLY ACCUSE NISSAN OF FALSIFYING THEIR 7:29 NURBURGRING LAP RECORD !! - Road & Track's Reader Zone - Road & Track Forums

Interesting Discussion with the R&T editor 



> Honestly I don't put much stock in manufacturer lap times. And I really don't put must stock in manufacturer's lap times of other makes. From our experience the GT-R on the Dunlop tires is more trackable than a Porsche 911T.
> 
> I have not heard this from Porsche, and if it's true they will have to support it with a lot of data and details.
> 
> -Shaun


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

this is just more of the same double-standard being taken to the top level of tastelessness and jealousy. 

isn't it interesting that no matter whomever sets a Nur lap such a lap time is virtually never disputed. but then Nissan begins to attack the Ring again with an all new supercar and it's nothing but a pack of lies, top to bottom, side to side, every which way. 

yet again Nissan is the underdog and the black sheep and red-headed step child to be hated, dismissed, ignored, disparaged, accused ... in this context the ultimate, penultimate, inadvertent flattery.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Robbie J said:


> Porsche make a lot of money on each car, production in Germany is more expensive than some countries but not that much. There is a big industrial support for car manufactures in Germany, you have BMW, Merc, Man, VW etc etc.
> 
> Porsche sell a "premium" package and charge for it
> 
> ...


There's the nub of the issue.

Porsche (and others I'm sure) are worried that the GTR will tempt away people with Guy's mindset who see past the badge and buy based on an overall package. 

Nissan should take the fact that Porsche are accusing them of cheating as a massive compliment, it shows that the new GTR is on their radar and they view it as a credible threat to their existing business model - something you could never say about the previous GTRs.

Ultimately competition is good for the consumer - whilst I don't expect Porsche to shave £60k+ off the list price of their GTR-wannabes () it is clearly a worry to them, if they fail to distract enough people from jumping ship to Nissan for this and subsequent GTRs then you can bet they'll have to adjust their business model accordingly.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Durzel said:


> There's the nub of the issue.
> 
> Porsche (and others I'm sure) are worried that the GTR will tempt away people with Guy's mindset who see past the badge and buy based on an overall package.
> 
> ...


Absolutly true . .but still I don't think that any german maker could build the GTR for the price the japanese offre it.
Also I wouldn't underestimate japanese arrogance when it comes to see Porsche as a daddy. The R32 GTR could have been in 1989 what the 400r was in 1996, a 400+PS rocket that would have killed any Porsche, Ferrari for half the price . . . . ( and the 280+HP R32 GTR spanked already most cars availble that time, even being restricted to the abnormal tight laws in japan )

What will happen in future is that japan will produce (finally ) cars that will go out from the japanese conservative boundries of understated salarymen performance cars building. Next year will be a great year for new japanese sports cars and allready now people in europe ask them selves the benefits of buying a 330i when they can have a better handling 330HP Infinit G37 for 10k less . . . . europe has to react or they will just rely on the pure image status of their brands, to keep their customer bases


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Regardless of the discussion remember all this was started by one journo in Australia against a tide of evidence to the contrary. Just a thought.....


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Fuggles said:


> Regardless of the discussion remember all this was started by one journo in Australia against a tide of evidence to the contrary. Just a thought.....


Good point. This is a Porsche employee speaking to a car journalist at an Australian car show. Not exactly a Porsche press release from Germany.....


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

In most multi-national companies, not all employees are allowed to talk to the press and if they were, there's often training to avoid faux pas like this.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Guy said:


> Good point. This is a Porsche employee speaking to a car journalist at an Australian car show. Not exactly a Porsche press release from Germany.....


Also true, maybe they thought because they were in Australia, they can just talk anything they want and hope it won't leave the island on the other side of the world . . .:chuckle: (the internet passed the message probably faster , then the Porsche engineer could fly back home . . .:chuckle: )

. . . and by the way , what was Cem doing in Australia?? . .. ups


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Also, if you know who the man from Porsche is, his job and look at some of his previous comments that puts the comments into context as well


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

RE: Nissan Hits Back At GT-R Cheat Claims

Phil


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## WoREoD (Apr 27, 2008)

Nissan have responded....

"NISSAN GT-R TEST PROCEDURES

In light of comments made recently in the media concerning the testing of the Nissan GT-R, it is clear that there are some important facts that were not accurately represented. 

Background

• On September 24, 2007 the Nissan GT-R recorded a lap time of the Nordschleife circuit at Germany’s Nurburgring of seven minutes and 38 seconds. This lap time was completed in weather conditions that the Nissan test team knew would not show the full potential of the car.

• On April 17, 2008 the Nissan test team was back at the Nurburgring and recorded a new lap time of seven minutes and 29 seconds, several times.

• For all testing at the Nurburgring and other circuits such as Sendai Highlands in Japan, the GT-R development team used production specification vehicles with production specification tyres. These tests are part of the extensive performance and durability program undertaken before, during and after the commercial introduction of the GT-R.

• The GT-R is a world-class supercar developed to be sold in multiple global markets. While specifications can differ across the various markets, the cars used to record both Nurburgring lap times were identical to the Japanese market production specification cars.

• For the April 2008 test, the GT-R carried an additional 50kg of weight due to the Marelli data recorder and video camera equipment. In addition, the test was witnessed by ‘Best Motoring’ magazine from Japan who reported the test in their July 2008 issue, which included a DVD program of the session.

• Nissan records the lap times around the Nurburgring using the same methodology and measuring locations as Sport Auto Magazine in Germany. Sport Auto Magazine provides the most consistent and objective measurement of lap times around the Nurburgring, allowing accurate comparisons between different vehicles.

• In both timed lap sessions at the Nurburgring, chief test driver and professional racing driver, Toshio Suzuki was at the wheel. Suzuki has been the chief test driver on the GT-R program throughout the vehicle’s development.

Tyres

The GT-R offers two different tyre choices for customers:
• Bridgestone POTENZA RE070R
• Dunlop SP SPORT 600 DSST CTT

• For the tests conducted at the Nurburgring where the lap times of 7:38 and 7:29 were recorded, the Dunlop tyres were used. The tyres – which are designed for high performance driving in the dry and wet - used in the tests were identical to the production specification tires available to GT-R customers.

• In June, 2008 Dunlop Japan issued a press release announcing that their tires had been used by Nissan to record the 7:29 lap time. The release can be accessed in Japanese and English at:
NISSAN GT-R‚É‘•’…‚³‚ê‚½ƒ_ƒ“ƒ�ƒbƒv‚Ì�‚�«”\ƒ‰ƒ“ƒtƒ‰ƒbƒgƒ^ƒCƒ„ �uSP SPORT 600 DSST CTT�v‚ªƒjƒ…ƒ‹ƒuƒ‹ƒNƒŠƒ“ƒNƒT�[ƒLƒbƒg‚Å7•ª30•b‚Ì•Ç‚ð”j‚é 
http://www3.srigroup.co.jp/CACHE/news_news...obj144_2008.cfm 

• For any media interested in seeing the actual tyres used at the test (7:29 lap time), they should contact the Public Relations Department at Sumitomo Rubber Industries, Ltd. in Japan. The contact email is [email protected] or +81 3 5546 0113

Driving the GT-R

• Consistent with industry benchmarking practices, we are aware that several auto makers have purchased the GT-R for their own testing and evaluation. Like all GT-R customers, we recommend that any auto maker buying a GT-R should follow the recommended run-in procedures, service schedules and maintenance to ensure the maximum performance from their car. 

• In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R.

Remarks

From Kazutoshi Mizuno, Chief Vehicle Engineer and Chief Product Specialist for GT-R:

“We have used circuits like the Nurburgring and Sendai extensively during the development of the GT-R. The fastest lap-time was never the objective but a simple parameter for us to measure the GT-R in a consistent way against other world class supercars.”

“Testing a car with specialized parts such as unique tires or suspension has no meaning for us. The GT-R was designed from the start to be a supercar that could be driven anywhere, anytime and by anyone. For us, testing the car in standard production specification is far more relevant than creating a one-off vehicle that our customers cannot buy.”


Conclusion

Due to the weather conditions at the Nurburgring, testing has now stopped and will resume around April 2009. Nissan will be back at the Nurburgring testing both the standard GT-R and upcoming additional models. We look forward to welcoming more members of the media to join us for these test sessions, consistent with our transparency at previous test sessions."


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## WoREoD (Apr 27, 2008)

I particularly like the paragraph....

"• In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R."

Tee-hee!


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## OllieMeff (May 30, 2008)

WoREoD said:


> Nissan will be back at the Nurburgring testing both the standard GT-R and upcoming additional models. "


Nice!!!!! additional model_*S*_


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## diddy_p (Oct 5, 2006)

HAHA the below is very nice! as is the invitations to have the competitor owned gtrs serviced etc.

"In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any auto manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R."


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

"Tyres

The GT-R offers two different tyre choices for customers:
• Bridgestone POTENZA RE070R
• Dunlop SP SPORT 600 DSST CTT

• For the tests conducted at the Nurburgring where the lap times of 7:38 and 7:29 were recorded, the Dunlop tyres were used. The tyres – which are designed for high performance driving in the dry and wet - used in the tests were identical to the production specification tires available to GT-R customers."


ok, thanks, Nissan...I'll have the Dunlops please....come on NMGB, you know it makes sense! This isn't because I think I can do 7 and a half minutes round the Nurburgring...this isn't going to happen as a) i'm not going to track my car and b)whatever tyres I had i think i'd be doing well if I managed to get down to 9 minutes...it's just because i understand the dunlops are safer in the wet (yes, even the summer dunlops) and because they don't understeer as much.


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## Paul_G (Apr 4, 2008)

Are they runflat?


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

they are indeed runflat. the UK press car (the one that the stig drove and all the magazines have tested) wears them. and the spec list on 2009 Nissan GT-R - Official Global Site used to list them next to the bridgestones implying an option....they've been removed from there but if you look at the bottom of the page they've left the bit on about dunlop registered trade mark. they are available as original equipment in some countries but not here. we are told that this is because they wear out too quickly but couldn't we be presented with that info and allowed to make the choice ourselves between dunlop and bridgestone as a no cost option?


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## thb_da_one (Nov 30, 2007)

Paul_G said:


> Are they runflat?


They are both runflat.


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## trondhla (Oct 1, 2003)

I think I have found the best answer to this discussion and that is a quote from chief engineer Kazutoshi Mizuno who said the follwoing when the GT-R was let loose on the journalists:

Earlier, Mizuno-san had offered some lap times from the Nordschliefe for various cars driven by the German magazine SportAuto. Those times are driver-dependent, track-knowledge-dependent, weather-, traffic- and bunny-crossing-the-track dependent. But Mizuno suggested the GT-R could get anywhere from 7:44 on up, with most laps coming in between 7:55 and 7:58. So he suggested the GT-R’s strong suit was that it offered “the best cost per lap time.” For whatever that’s worth.

2009 Nissan GT-R - AutoWeek Magazine

He is spot on Mizuno-san, normal drivers including chassis engineers whose payroll comes from Porsche AG will achieve ca 7:50 + on the 'Ring. Also if and they can manage 7:32 with a 911 Turbo. Only highly skilled drivers with racing experience and extensive GT-R traing can do better.

In anyway, this discussion has as you may expect also been fired loose on 6speedonline and boy they are offended by the GT-R. If you have some time over no less than 17 pages (as of writing) GT-R bashing: 
997 TT beats GT-R at Ring. Nissan accused of cheating. - 6speedonline.com Forums
How far can you go in order to save your own selfesteem


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

I see that "heavychevy" troll hasn't found a girlfriend yet ...

Phil


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

*sweet*

Still Not Convinced? Nissan Reveals Second GT-R 'Ring Video...

Still Not Convinced? Nissan Reveals Second GT-R 'Ring Video


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

skyline69_uk said:


> Still Not Convinced? Nissan Reveals Second GT-R 'Ring Video...
> 
> Still Not Convinced? Nissan Reveals Second GT-R 'Ring Video


ahahahahahahahahahaha

ahahahahhahahahahahahahhaa


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

I laughed as well. It looks for all the world like Nissan let the issue brew until it was major news then just released the video at the time it would make Porsche look the most like idiots - good marketing to say the least. The fact that Porsche didn't even follow the maintenance or servicing correctly shows what a load of crap the whole thing was.


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

And nobody at Porsche has ever, nor ever will, drive the R35 thousands of times around the Nurburgring as Suzuki-san has done. So they will never attain 7:29 with such lack of seat time. 

The issue is not only stupid, but a grand faux pas for Porsche as they have only raised Nissan's profile to _beyond their own._


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

bonzelite said:


> The issue is not only stupid, but a grand faux pas for Porsche as they have only raised Nissan's profile to _beyond their own._


Agreed.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

*Quality!!!! TOP GEAR*

Does this mean TG will be trying this?...



Porsche vs Nissan news - Get in the 'Ring - 2008 - BBC Top Gear


Get in the 'Ring
Nissan has responded angrily to Porsche’s claims that it faked its astonishing GT-R Nurburgring lap time, and has suggested that Porsche’s test drivers need to ‘get a bit quicker’. 

Back in May, Nissan reported that its production GT-R had lapped the Nurburgring Nordschleife in an near-unbelievable 7m29s in the hands of its test driver Tochio Suzuki: a full three seconds quicker than a Porsche GT2, and one of the fastest-ever production times on the ‘Ring.

Despite video evidence, Porsche was sceptical, and last month claimed that Nissan posted the quicker times because the GT-R was running semi-slick race tyres. Which would mean it wasn’t production-spec.

In fact, Porsche went as far as buying a US-spec GT-R – worth $77,000 – and shipping it out to the ‘Ring along with a 911 Turbo and a 911 GT2. In the hands of a Porsche test driver, the GT-R posted a time of 7m 54s, with the Turbo clocking 7m38s and the GT2 managing 7m34s.

Nissan’s top brass are rather cheesed off that Porsche’s top brass are calling them fibbers, and have emphatically stated that the GT-R was on production rubber.

Nissan’s European spokesman Neil Reeve said in Paris that they were at a loss to explain why Porsche couldn’t replicate Nissan’s own lap time.

He said that Nissan was ‘flattered’ that Porsche had bought themselves a GT-R and flown it to Germany, but reaffirmed that the GT-R has beaten the 911 Turbo in a number of independent tests.

And Nissan has also released a photo of the actual tyres used for the test, plus a second Nurburgring video as evidence of its claims. Even better, Nissan has offered free training for the Porsche test drivers if they want to attempt another lap in the GT-R.

Reckon we’ve heard the last of this? Us neither. There’s only one way to settle this. 

The Stig.

Enough said


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

skyline69_uk said:


> Does this mean TG will be trying this?...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love how Nissan offers to help train Porsche drivers!!! :bowdown1::bowdown1::bowdown1:


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## moleman (Jun 3, 2002)

I was nosing around DR just now and found this posted by Richard Meaden...



> I'm enjoying the increasingly petty exchange between Porsche and Nissan. It's easy to say that lap times don't really mean a great deal, but you only have to have done a bit of indoor karting with your mates to know that lap times actually mean EVERYTHING to those involved in setting them! Surely the Ring is no different in this respect.
> Whichever way you look at it you'd have to say it's a win-win for Nissan whether the times were legit or not, as the boys from Porsche are clearly irked by the GT-R. But then so they should be, given we are all talking about GT2 and GT-R in the same breath. Whatever you think of the lap times nobody should forget that the GT-R is priced to rival the Carrera and Carrera S, yet can happily slug it out with a GT2. That's an awesome achievement.
> Okay, so given a limitless budget I'd have a GT2 over a GT-R, but if I really did have a limitless budget then I'd have a Carrera GT over a GT2 just because I could...
> Perhaps more significantly (especially given my well documented love of the 911) given a genuine £50-60k budget for a new car I would pick a GT-R over the new 997 Carrera S.


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## Swiss Frank (Apr 29, 2008)

Fuggles said:


> ... any well respecting German driver with countless years experience of driving a rear engined car could get used to even before he's had time to chomp his way though his weiner schnitzel.


Germans don't eat Wienerschnitzel, thats Austrians. (Wien = Vienna in English)


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## jmotors (Sep 22, 2008)




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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


my graphic has gotten around! mwahahhahahaha


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## ZXTTdriver (Jul 26, 2003)

R33_GTS-t said:


> This is crazy. Going round internet forums it's pretty obvious that Porsche actually have some people on the payroll trolling for them. It's crazy funny. Having an inferior car is one thing but turning your company into a laughing stock is another.


Ha they did that when they decided to try to fool the world that a flattened VW beetle could ever be developed (even over a 40 year period) into the best sports car on the planet

:flame:


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## ZXTTdriver (Jul 26, 2003)

bonzelite said:


> And nobody at Porsche has ever, nor ever will, drive the R35 thousands of times around the Nurburgring as Suzuki-san has done. So they will never attain 7:29 with such lack of seat time.
> 
> The issue is not only stupid, but a grand faux pas for Porsche as they have only raised Nissan's profile to _beyond their own._


I'm no fan of Porche - see my earlier post - but doesn't the Nissan caption after the ring video say...

"anyone, anytime, anyplace"?

Doesn't say anything about "Suzuki-san, that fateful day in September, Nurburgring" or needing special GT-R race training etc etc!!


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## bonzelite (May 14, 2006)

ZXTTdriver said:


> I'm no fan of Porche - see my earlier post - but doesn't the Nissan caption after the ring video say...
> 
> "anyone, anytime, anyplace"?
> 
> Doesn't say anything about "Suzuki-san, that fateful day in September, Nurburgring" or needing special GT-R race training etc etc!!


You can't be serious. Suzuki-san has done thousands of Nur laps and is an F1 driver. He is realizing the car's potential. Most people in general never realize their own potential at .... anything.... 

How can you just go into a car then take it to it's limits as an expert driver: you can't and never will more than likely. 

"anytime, anywhere,...." is being taken to mean things it was never meant to mean. It doesn't mean that anyone can take the GT-R anytime and do 7:29. I hope you were truly being sarcastic and I'm simply going off as a misunderstanding.

It means that anyone can drive a supercar now, ie, the R35 is made for the Joe Q Public driver who wants to be in a supercar that gives you an unintimidating driver experience. 

Nissan has made the supercar for the masses. It isn't a brutal hard-to-drive kind of supercar such as a 911 or others. It is easy to handle at the limit; and anyone can take it near this limit or not. That is what it means.


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## doggiehowser (Oct 8, 2007)

I think the best "antithesis" to the "anytime anywhere" supercar is the McLaren F1.

Not the kind of car you can go out and potter around town in and get your groceries in.



That said, some of the new Ferraris are pretty good as everyday cars as well.

The only issue with the Ferraris are maintenance cost. But the GT-R's is comparatively (relative to price of car) as dear to run


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

also added to any time anywhere.. its going world wide this time. where as the skylines had to be imported all over the place if it could be that is.


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## ZXTTdriver (Jul 26, 2003)

Personally I think it was intended to be a direct dig at Porsche who have the reputation for making the 'everday' sportscar in the 911, but everyday is the word - there are thousands of these 'squashed beetles' around.

I also think Nissan are trying to make the point thatthe GT-R is not going to bite you in the ass (or kill you) when you do reach the limit of your own ability.

Truth is that I suspect very few owners will ever get anywhere near to the limits of this cars capabilities (though I take it as a personal challenge to try!!!)


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## DoctorD (Aug 16, 2008)

Hi Chaps, as you can see from the image below we've been busy behind the scenes gathering some facts to introduce to this topic. 

Last Tuesday we took a 911 GT2 (supplied by Porsche) and a Nissan GT-R (a customer car imported from Japan) and joined the RMA track day at the 'ring. 

Chris Harris was the driver and he drove each car for three laps (one out lap, and two flying laps). Naturally we recorded the laps on video and recorded the lap and section times on Racelogic telemetry. Chris had successfully competed in the VLN race the day before so he was race (and track) fit and able to get on the pace pretty quickly. 

We are busy finishing the video and will shortly publish the feature story and full results. 

This is as close as you'll probably get to an independent and unbiased validation of their respective 'claimed' lap times so it will be interesting to see how this conversation goes after the results are published.


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

I would be very surprised if the GT2 isn't a lot quicker (but in true internet style, the GT2 was a ringer).

Phil


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## BigNige (Jun 1, 2008)

I'm looking forward to seeing the results!


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## diddy_p (Oct 5, 2006)

i heard rumors that when porsche found out why you wanted a gt2, they made some modifications to the car before handing it over furthermore when my mechanic who does my tracking took my newly imported from USA gt2 to the ring he couldnt get within 45 seconds of your time.... muahahahaa only joking.


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