# Why is the Alcon Superkit so much better than the Brembo



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I know this kit has been talked about a lot on the forum but I'm finding it difficult to get a good understanding of what makes this kit so great.

Currently, I'm running the large HD rotors from Alcon, this is 396mm front, I run the pagid rs29 pads.

The pads last me around 4 days right now, so its costing around £130 per track day.

The rotors on the superkit are 400mm vs the HD kit 396mm.

The pad on the superkit is smaller than the OEM brembo, so although pad size does not affect brake torque, a larger pad means larger surface area and better heat dissipation.

So that leaves the caliper, what justifies the cost of the £9k caliper upgrade? I started to get some minor brake fade issues last week at Donington but I was threshold braking on all corners and I did a good 70 laps during the day, I was with Colin Hoad (CATDT) and he and I both felt the car stopped really well. 

I would not normally spend the 9k on the bbk but I have been offered the kit for a reasonable price used and with me selling my existing setup I feel the cost to change isn't that bad which is why I have started to research this now.


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Hiya mate.

I had the BBK before I went carbon. Never faded, same pedal all the time I cannot recommend them enough. So much confidence in the corners when you need to start bleeding the pressure off too.

Pads last longer too because of the larger surface area, but then again depends on how you are braking. The VDC annihilates the rear pads if you start leaning on the Stability and traction.

My best buy ever, in actual fact the CCX's are way overkill for even enthusiastic track days but I have them for various reasons.

Really hope you go with them, really speeds up your laps.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Im just about to pull the trigger because the cost to change is good. 
The surface area of the pad is lower than the oem pads though, this is one of the reasons Ive been confused.
I assume its due to the race spec caliper that makes them so good. 
The only reason im buying them is because people like you, ant and mishkin tell me theyre good, I hope Im not disapponted.
I don't lean on the traction control, Im not the fastest track guy but I am a very smooth driver. Rear pads are lasting much longer than fronts, its purely down to going more hardcore and threshold braking all the time.


----------



## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

I still dont get it, I did some track days and also did a CATD day, the only time i ever felt my OEMs get spongy was if we had to pit after hot laps, and didnt get to cool down. 

Proper fluid and proper pads...add some cooling vents if you can...

I dont know, im no track god so i could just be a big sissy behind the wheel lol


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Whats your time at Silverstone GP Rain?


----------



## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Rain said:


> I dont know, im no track god so i could just be a big sissy behind the wheel lol


Yes

Well maybe anyway.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I have brand new pads going on for Saturday, I will measure pad usage, although its always a little lower on fresh pads as there is more material for heat. I bought the alcon superkit, the cost for the upgrade is working out at just under 3 grand.


----------



## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Vernonjones said:


> Whats your time at Silverstone GP Rain?


Slow, probably as i was happy with my OEM kit with track pads and fluid.

Only been a handful of times, so compared to many here i would consider myself a slow driver, I dont know what time i was able to get, never bothered timing to be fair, just went out and tried to learn new things about the course and the car.



gtr mart said:


> Yes
> 
> Well maybe anyway.


:chuckle: I dont take any offense to being called slow, put in enough time and learn the track and get more confident etc etc.
If i was there still, and kept the car, id have liked to get some pointers from some of the people here, seems like many of you either live out in the paddocks, or work as instructors.

Actually driving the GTR for the short time i enjoyed it a lot, I just dont have the feeling of 'needing' to get one again. Currently exploring building a GT86 with a mild supercharging kit and a hollinger box to screw around with. Proper slow car haha!

Anyway, at 3K its not bad, it will only let you enjoy the car more, probably.


----------



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

It is interesting that some have the need to upgrade the Brembo caliper for the Alcon. I have had it on good authority from ex Alcon and AP enginneer that the Brembo R35 caliper is every bit as good at the Alcon superkit caliper not to get confused with the Alcon Racing caliper. Of course their brake discs with out doubt along with AP equiv would be a must have item when replying the poor Oem drilled discs. 

But if people feel the need to but the superkit it's their wish but we're all amateurs here unless you get someone like JC in a car most would not brake beyond the limits of the OEM Brembo caliper.


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

@FFRACER - Yes I agree. However I did not get to experience the stock caliper with the Alcon Disc and pad upgrade, and you could well be correct. Because I was aiming to be where I am now with the car I wanted to sort it right first time and not make costly mistakes (whatever they are) by 'under' grading the brakes from the start. So I started with the BBK and a full brake cooling package.

In hindsight I should have gone straight to the CCX's but I was lucky with a deal direct with Alcon for some work I did.

V


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I feel like I will be able to give an honest opinion on this, I will be getting the calipers upgraded in the next couple of weeks, I will be moving from the large alcon rotors and rs29 pads to the same setup in the superkit config.

My issue is not stopping power, I run a good brake setup with r888's and threshold brake, I have an issue with pad life and fade, this may or may not be helped by the superkit, we will see.


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

It will be interesting. I really struggle to not use the ABS with the CCX's as the bite when they are warm is too harsh really and not enough feel, Jake does the same so I am almost giving up with rotating the brakes around the corner so much because I could actually do a better laptime with the ABS. I may pull the fuse next time and see if that helps the situation and I am able to unlock a wheel once snatched.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Can you lock a wheel at 140+ with the CCX kit?


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Try 170.........


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

That is kind of mind blowing, on the OEM no matter how hard you push you wont lock a wheel at 140


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

matthewk said:


> That is kind of mind blowing on the OEM no matter how hard you push you wont lock a wheel at 140


Its too much really. Im trying to remember about the BBk and Im fairly sure I could get the ABS in at 140+ with it, but most on my time with the BBK was in winter with MPSS so not a fair test.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

The best way to brake on track


----------



## Conrad (Jul 29, 2004)

I am not wanting to a throw a spanner in the works but offering another view but doesn't Keith Cowie have successful results on stock Brembo calipers and DBA 3000 discs with Carbon Lorraine pads?

I seem to recall him thrashing the car round Knockhill all season with this set-up and they perform well? 

On that basis is there a real need to Pay 9K for brakes when a decent set of discs, pads and fluid will do the job?


----------



## rogerdavis (Feb 16, 2008)

Because it is sold and promoted as a "must have" kit people seem to think it is the way to go. I am with Conrad I have been following Keith on his track exploits and he has had no complaints with the OEM calipers.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I have a decent set of pads, fluid and discs, Infact its nearly the same setup as the superkit use
396mm x 34mm alcon + rs29 pads + castrol srf + steel lines

The superkit is 400mm x36mm alcon + rs29 

I dont doubt the stopping power of my current setup. I have read a few threads on gtrlife about the alcon kit, from what I understand there is less fade with the superkit caliper, I do not know if this is a fact though, I am having issues with fade once heat soak sets in, my current setup does not give confidence, after a good few sessions on track my peddal is going lower and lower.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Also with the current setup I am using a set of front pads every 4 track days, this is about a month of track days in the track day season, so its costing me about £120 per day or £480 a month in pads. The rears are lasting around 2.5x the front. 

I got brand new front pads fitted early feb, I then did Anglesey, Oulton Park, Silverstone and donington park circuits, at the end of the day at Donington I had 2mm of pad left on the fronts, Acspeedtech fit new pads and fluids for me this week ready for Silverstone this Saturday.

If my cost to change to the superkit is £3k and I get extra pad life then they should pay for themselves reasonably quickly.

Ive spent a lot of time researching this, there isn't a great deal of info about the superkit on this forum that is relevant to me.

One of the best threads I have found on this is over on gtrlife.

http://gtrlife.com/forums/topic/72218-alcon-ccx/page__st__40

Next week Jurgen/jm-imports will be fitting my kit, I bought JamieP/Ian's old superkit, I will then get back on track and see how it performs, I will give my honest opinion on them as a track day enthusiast, I'm no racing driver or ultra quick driver like some people here so I can only give an opinion on if they're good for me or not but I will give an honest opinion.


----------



## AndyC160 (Mar 12, 2015)

Conrad said:


> I am not wanting to a throw a spanner in the works but offering another view but doesn't Keith Cowie have successful results on stock Brembo calipers and DBA 3000 discs with Carbon Lorraine pads?
> 
> I seem to recall him thrashing the car round Knockhill all season with this set-up and they perform well?
> 
> On that basis is there a real need to Pay 9K for brakes when a decent set of discs, pads and fluid will do the job?


I'm not sure whether it has happened to any gtr owners as I've only recently joined the site but I've got a lotus as well and quite a few owners have had serious problems with carbon lorraine pads where the pad totally separates from the backing. I think I'd stick with pagid or endless.


----------



## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Matthew do you log your brake pressures? That might be quite important to see if your braking technique that is causing excessive heating up and fade because I have known and seen people use the std Brembos with out a bother. 

If you want to describe how you use the brakes ie you approaching a heavy braking zone from say 140 to 40 mph. How would you load the the brakes. Would you build up the pressure slowly to maximum or instantly apply maximum pressure and bleed off the pressure. I have seen even seasoned track day and amateur racers use different techniques and one does work the brakes a lot harder.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I log using vbox I will upload a video with the data overlaid for your opinion once Im back at a PC

I use my left foot to brake and my pedal transition is fairly fast, Ive spent a lot of time working on threshold braking. I do have a big issue with confidence and carrying that extra speed going into a corner, I am currently doing a lot more training with Colin at CATDT, my last track day at donington was with him sat beside me, he pushes you a lot and as he knows I am doing the sprint series this year he pushed me more than he normally would for a track enthusiast.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Here is a video of some clips of my track day at donington last week, feel free to critique as much as you like, I'm open to getting as much free advice from you guys as possible so I can improve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_ELgyZWyIs

My own observations about my driving where I know my weaknesses are.

I back out of the gas on the long straights a little, I have maybe 15 meters where I'm at part throttle before a brake, this is a confidence issue that I'm working on, I should be transitioning from full gas to full brake better.

I'm not reaching peak G (1.2G on this setup) early enough in the corner, I reach it mid corner which means I'm not turning in fast enough or carrying enough speed into the corner. 

I'm not comfortable getting too close to the other cars on track, this is fine on a track day but if I want to start racing next year I need to work on this.

I could be trail braking on some corners, this is something I can't do well yet and I haven't started working on this yet, I will be back with Colin at milbrook soon to spend a day working on this in his subaru and in my gtr.

I threw in a clip of me letting the LMP1 car pass me at the end because its awesome.


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Hi Matt,

I'm certainly no expert in a heavy weight car (my GTR included) but from what I see you seem to take off about the right amount of speed but compressed into a shorter braking zone too early. Rotate your braking along a bit more into the corner, the goal is to not require any level throttle on some corners. Redgate for example. Don't quote me here as I don't know your car or your setup, but it looks like you could get on the brakes at just about the triangle curb paint on the left and slide the braking pressure almost to the apex of redgate rotating the car as you do so and back on the power almost straight away.

The only other thing that struck me was you are getting off the gas too slowly, especially in a straight line where it won't upset the car. It should be snap off and on the brakes - why waste time?

Can you left foot brake?

Other than that you are very smooth its just about pushing on a little harder and later. Silverstone is the one to try with that because of the run offs.

Like I said I'm no expert at heavyweight GT cars.

Oh and get a front diff. Totally different car.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Thanks for the input Vernon

The early braking is something I'm working on, its a confidence issue.

Yes I left foot brake, I will try harder this weekend at Silverstone, Ill practice a little trail braking and later braking, I know where my weakness is at Silverstone and I feel quiet comfortable there due to the size of the run off area.

I don't know what a front diff does?

Thanks
Matt




Vernonjones said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> I'm certainly no expert in a heavy weight car (my GTR included) but from what I see you seem to take off about the right amount of speed but compressed into a shorter braking zone too early. Rotate your braking along a bit more into the corner, the goal is to not require any level throttle on some corners. Redgate for example. Don't quote me here as I don't know your car or your setup, but it looks like you could get on the brakes at just about the triangle curb paint on the left and slide the braking pressure almost to the apex of redgate rotating the car as you do so and back on the power almost straight away.
> 
> ...


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

matthewk said:


> Thanks for the input Vernon
> 
> The early braking is something I'm working on, its a confidence issue.
> 
> ...



The front diff will let you get the power down a lot sooner and drag the car out of the turn. Its simply Awesome. Litchfield are the distributors.

I suffered with the same thing where I had some middle time doing nothing in the car which made me get on the power too early. Fix the braking and the power then is timed perfectly.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I think I have this little guy in my brain saying "oh shit you're doing 135 mph and running out of road" and that makes me back out a little and coast to the braking zone, which then makes me unbalanced for the corner.


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Yup I had to work loads on that. When I was at that stage I was constantly finishing 4th. Fixed that issue and drove on all the track, the wins came.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Are you bringing your r35 to Silverstone this saturday? If so can I get a few passenger laps with you?


----------



## Vernonjones (Oct 23, 2012)

Sadly i have a back issue and wont be attending


----------



## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

Matt,

Nice video 

I had mega confidence issues with the car, mainly because it was a snap purchase and i wasn't concerned with its history, as all i wanted it for was to beat around the track, but was not confident to explore limits at some tracks.

I think Millbrook will do you great! After going there, and doing some of the alpine stuff, and the heavy on-off braking with Colin, it made me realize where my car was in terms of how much confidence I should have in it.

Good luck in your racing btw!

Edit: Fun laps at Donington, such a fun track, I think i actually enjoyed it way more than Silverstone.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

I think I like Donington more than Silverstone too, its closer to me so thats a bonus, I prefer Silverstone for exploring limits though.


----------



## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

Must agree that looks like a fun track And is a similar distance to me as Silverstone.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Sadly we have no chance of getting on it, this was one of a few unrestricted days they run each year, most of the time its 98db and very strict.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

The car behaved well on track today with fresh pads on the front, I had some minor fade issues after a few hot laps but in terms of raw stopping power the rs29 + alcon discs are amazing.

Jake spent quite a bit of time in the car and commented on how good the brakes performed, I have no doubt that for 95% of people out there that this setup is more than good enough.


----------



## Rain (Apr 8, 2006)

I had Xp20s and AP disks, the pads are aggressive, didnt get any noticeable fade, never tried RS29s tho, probably would be a much friendlier drive to the track! the XP20s were like having friggin banshees in your wheels


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Jurgen @ JM-Imports fitted these for me today, I got them used at about half price.

My intital impressions using them for fast road is that they feel and stop pretty similar to the RS29 + Alcon Discs combo I had before, the initial bite didn't seem as good as my old setup but that might be because I've come from new pads to half used pads.

I will get some sticky tyres on and get them tested at track shortly.


----------



## matthewk (Aug 22, 2013)

Spent the day testing them at Anglesey circuit, no extra stopping power over the Brembo + 396 alcon + rs29 pads, I did have some fade issues but not quite as bad as I was getting on the OEM caliper, my pads only had 50% life left so could of just been that, Ill be getting some new pads on the front and ill give a better test.


----------

