# can we control the 4WD pump?



## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello.
We are planning on making the 4wd manual control on the drag car and would like to know maybe anyone has any knowledge on how to control the 4wd pump?
We would like to throw away all the electronics and just control the pump externally to push needed amount of pressure, 18kgs, into the transfer working cylinder to make the car 50-50 off the line and then control the pump to reduce the pressure based on speed of the car to make it RWD on some speed. Does anyone know is there a solenoid or any other way to control the pump? how is the pump controlled? anybody had any experience with this?


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## GTRFOREVER (Mar 1, 2010)

i believe there is a gadget called grid dancer if im not mistaken it allows you to run just in rear wheel drive , 50/50 or 75/25 but tbh ive never experienced it myself


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

topspeed.ua said:


> Hello.
> We are planning on making the 4wd manual control on the drag car and would like to know maybe anyone has any knowledge on how to control the 4wd pump?
> We would like to throw away all the electronics and just control the pump externally to push needed amount of pressure, 18kgs, into the transfer working cylinder to make the car 50-50 off the line and then control the pump to reduce the pressure based on speed of the car to make it RWD on some speed. Does anyone know is there a solenoid or any other way to control the pump? how is the pump controlled? anybody had any experience with this?


ye, grid dancer mate! already on the market.


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

The grid dancer only works with the full ATTESSA awd system working including ecu and sensors

I assume you are trying to get rid of the attessa system . It could simplified as on a stagea but there seems little point as there would be no real benefit.

I think what you are refering to has been done on some drag cars but I beleive it was not the cheapest thing to do.


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

RSVFOUR - Well it is still a pump controlling the pressure into the transfer case. it is a metter on how the pump is controlled, by pump speed or pressure relief valve inside the pump, and we can make this thing push any pressure we need based on conditions. What I was asking if anyone knows how the pump is controlled and can it be controlled direct without any sensors or attesa system, just the reservour, pump, and the hose to the transfer case. why would it not be cheapest thing?


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Talk to Reese from heat treatments.
They basically through all the factory stuff away and ran a remote hydraulic pump in the car and preloaded the clutch for each run.
Pretty sure Glen Suckling runs a similar setup


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Yeah, e-mail Reece and Glen, they'll tell you how to do it. sf


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Talk to Reese from heat treatments.
> They basically through all the factory stuff away and ran a remote hydraulic pump in the car and preloaded the clutch for each run.
> Pretty sure Glen Suckling runs a similar setup


As I tried to explain to Julio in a previous post that this is what the drag guys do with a "Handbrake" lever that they pump to a preset pressure (via a oil pressure gauge) and then have it release through a bleed system when released half track or when ever suits. sf


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

Best thing to do is ask a tuner or proper drag racer, they always pass on their secrets when asked nicely. sf


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

You can use the GRID DANCER instead of the attessa system


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

R32 Combat said:


> You can use the GRID DANCER instead of the attessa system


Happy to be corrected by someone who does know . I did not realise it could work as a "stand alone " as he does mean without any sensors ecu etc,

................In that case could it work on a stagea as I was told no.


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello R.I.P.S NZ and GT-R Glenn, what are their nicknames on here to ask? Or email? website?

R32 Combat - what is the GRID DANCER ? where can I read about it?


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## Boosted (Jun 5, 2008)

Try using the 'Search' function, and then look on 'Google' for Grid Dancer.


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## G40tee (Feb 25, 2008)

google heat treatments and email them directly personally, reece and the boys dont come on here much


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

The GRID DANCER is a pusle width generator that is used to drive the ATTESSA hydraulic solenoid. There is a dummy coil in there to fool the ATTESSA control unit that the 2 items are still connected.

IF you can run the pump to charge the accumulator to attain the correct pressure, you have variable torque split.


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

R32 Combat - is the Atessa pump has a solenoid inside that can be controlled like any other duty solenoid to maintain pressure needed? just like say boost solenoid with some 33Hz frequency and we can controll width of the signal in that frequency to controll duty? or it is some way more complicated?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Yes, you got the idea. You can choose the Hz and duty. I have a GRID DANCE that I tested. I'll put it on the scope and find out the Hz if I get time.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

i know someone selling a grid dancer if your interested

mook


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello R32 Combat. so it is like a Boost solenoid inside the pump? you can controll it by pulse width knowing the Hz rating of it? is it as simple as it is or there is something else to it? what I wanted to do is to weld some custom small oil reserwour, install a pump and this reservour behind driver seat, and run the line from reservour to the pump and from pump to the working cylinder on the transfer. and then from the ECU controll the solenoid inside the pump with pulse width signal. is it possible to do like this, without all the aditional electronics? just the reservour=>pump=>working cylinder?

Or the pump is controlled by Amps to it? I do not think so but maybe you know for sure?


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Yes, you can control it with pulse width knowing the Hz, it is that simple.

I'm not sure you will find a pump that will give you 230psi on tap without a pressure accumulator.

I agree with your idea, and I can't see why is won't work.


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello R32 Combat, do you know the right Hz for this pump to cntroll it?
This OEM pump will give that pressure right?


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## max1 (Feb 24, 2002)

hello m,s factory did a dragrace controller for this years ago i have oneon my drag car but v rare ,give ron at rk tuning a shout he ha designed a box to do it .or get in touch with Dee ,from speed d pro shop thaland,he ran a manual contror on his 8,sec gtr32 few years back .for drag racingu can manually pump it and bleed it off.


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

max1 said:


> hello m,s factory did a dragrace controller for this years ago i have oneon my drag car but v rare ,give ron at rk tuning a shout he ha designed a box to do it .or get in touch with Dee ,from speed d pro shop thaland,he ran a manual contror on his 8,sec gtr32 few years back .for drag racingu can manually pump it and bleed it off.


Do you have a phone or email of Ron? or Dee? Can you please PM me?

As for manual pumping, the problem is that the master cylinders DO NOT accept ATF in them and the seals brake every 2-3 runs! it is crazy to replace master cylinders every 3 runs!


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Sure 
Glen Works here 
About Turbo Vehicles

Reese works here
HTL Racing - Home


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## SafT (May 20, 2004)

Actually Glen is self employed now.

Can PM contact details if you require.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Oh ok Last time I talked to him he was buying into Mikes company and mike was semi retiring


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

SafT - yes please if you can!


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

GT-R Glenn - I sent them both emails. no reply yet. maybe weekend.

R32 Combat - we took the pump out of the car. there are 3 wires to control it and 3 atf ports. can you tell me, are those 3 ports are (1 from the tank to the pump. 1 from the pump to the transfer, 1 from the pump back to the tank to drop extra pressure?) is it correct?
what are those 3 wires for? you have any idea?


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

Hello. Here is how it is done on JDM drag car. We will try to do the same and I will let you know. 

R32 Combat can you possibly share the right frequency in Hz we need to use for that solenoid?


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## JD74 (Oct 7, 2008)

I'll tell you guys what......I'll TRADE you some info.

First off, someone tell me WTF '*SF*' means, as I saw 3 smartass comments that ended with it.....and I will add some info on the controller you all seem to be 'talking' about.

To begin with (_before this turns into another "N1 Pump is a STD Pump with a stiffer relief spring" thread_), it's called the *GRID TS DANCER *.......

_Not Grid Dancer, Not Dash Dancer (although this model DOES exist) and surely not Private Dancer_, although having this unit installed does give you the ability to pull an 'Ike' and beat your car like 'Tina' without blowing up the front diff & breaking axles which is what most people like about it (_please excuse the Ike & Tina Turner reference, but I had to add something gratuitous after listing Private Dancer.....uh dancer for money....do what you want.....er, you get it_).

....not that this will help many people that can't read Japanese, but atleast you will know what you are looking for.
It's pretty simple looking and obvious in function. Each number being the % of Front TQ locked in, with a simple ON/OFF switch beside it.










This unit is nearly 20 years old in design now and still remains as the MOST IN DEMAND etc for BNR32/33/34 Skylines due to it's track record.

The only problem you will find, is not being able to find one easilly. I was able to aquire one off of Yahoo Auctions Japan, but they RARELY come up for sale and when they do, expect to pay a premium for it....as well as many sleepless nights of watching the auctions.

I threw caution to the wind and simply kept outbidding everyone to get mine, even though it was over priced.....but everyone in the auction must have felt the same way as I did, but thankfully, I finally came out on top.


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## ebola (Aug 14, 2009)

? the guys initials ?
I had thought that for a full 50Kg to the front you just run the pump flat out... and I guess that you could replace the power solenoid if you want something different.
It was obvious that for low loads the solenoid would have to be pulsed.

As such, for drag racing I would have throught (or suggest trying) wiring up a switch to the solenoid, and wiring power in straight up to 12V (there appear to be 2 solenoids in line, to my attempt at deciphering the wiring diagrams).
If it fails, I bet an electronics geek could wire up a 555 timer, and you can tune in your resistance using a trim pot.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Only problem with all of this in a drag car is it is illegal to have any form of electronic control on the torque split, absolutly everything in the entire system must be fully manually controlled.

At least thats how it is in our rule book, might pay to check yours.

Rob


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## ebola (Aug 14, 2009)

Hey... I'm not a drag racer... finally in the middle of getting a trackable gtr (£5k)...
but...
Whats ELECTRONIC about a switch? No timing involved. same as wiper motors. Much simpler than an ECU. Or do you have to short the wires together manually?
Electric != Electronic.
Of course, thats my opinion, anyway... The 'authorities' may disagree. But it is just 'analogue', as opposed to 'digital', and since the pump is electric, you need to supply it somehow.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Electronic = 12+v, you use a switch to supply 12v to the pump so its electronic.

Disconnect the battery and see if it still works  THEN it would pass.

Seriously though, for alot of drag classes the torque split needs to be fully manually activated and there can be no electrics involved in any part of it.

Rob


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

we do not have rules for it to be manual yet.
the pump has its own +- to pump into the reservoir 20 bars and the shut off. the solenoid is controlled with 2 wires, it is very quick in changing pressure with duty applied to it. almost instant. easy to control.


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## boostinvert (Aug 16, 2007)

so whats differnet between the grid dancer and the hks controller?


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## pupsi (Aug 29, 2006)

I think the HKS controller does the same as R32 Combats Skylab unit, adds constant torque, whereas the Grid unit gives certain % (variable) of torque to the front, am i right......


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## ItzGenX (Jul 29, 2010)

I stumbled upon this thread after many hours of googling. I am very interested in finding out information on exactly what the original poster has asked but for a different application.

My car is a S14 (95' USDM 240SX), and I am swapping over the R32 GTR front shock towers along with the entire drivetrain and suspension. I can't run the attesa system since I do not have all the attesa wiring and G sensors etc. The only thing besides the transmission from the original attesa system I have from buying my BNR32 front clip are attesa ecu (I think) and the hydraulic pump mounted on the rear differential. There is some other silver computer box that was found sitting in the clip's floor panel, but I do not know what it does either. Either way, both the attesa ecu and the other little box have connectors with cut harness looms, and I will not be able to figure that out from scratch.

On to the original topic now, I plan on finding out more information about this pump assembly and how it controls pressure (and how much pressure equals how much front torque). What I want to do is make a simple trim knob that controls my front wheel torque from inside the cabin, 0 being off, and 100 being full pump pressure. On every day driving and long trips, I can turn the system off and have a normal RWD car. If the weather gets nasty in stop and go situations or I decide to run the car in autocross and road courses, I can just lock in a preset to help balance out the car from over/understeer for those conditions. Since the GTR uses a wet type clutch as a transfercase, I can always add an ATF cooler to prevent heat build up--control the heat, which controls the wear to prevent burning the clutch pack up (similar to a motorcycle wet clutch). Also, I suspect there will not be too much stress on the transfer case if all 4 wheels are doing the same speed in most situations, but the car will be in rwd mode most of the time.

So to my understanding (confirming previous assumption), there is a high speed hydraulic pressure solenoid built onto the pump assembly along with a pressure accumulator. When powered on, the pump runs full steam like a fuel pump, the pressure solenoid is triggered by the ecu to bleed off pressure back into the reservoir return line (similar to electronic boost controllers), and the pressure accumulator stabilizes the sudden changes in pressure going to the transfercase(like a shock or a big air tank).

That is how I understand it so far by all this talk. So down to the nitty gritty on what needs to be done. It seems I need a switched relay to send raw fused 12v power to the pump when I need the system on. The solenoid seems to need an electronic PWM(pulse width modulator) to send 12v at different frequencies/duty in order control pressure. So the only thing missing in this big puzzle in my head is, what are the frequency ranges for this solenoid to be normal and happy (without killing it)?

Someone said here that one of the Grid Dancer controllers can work without any Attesa electronics? I've searched google for hours and did not find any truth to this yet. Even if it does work rigged up to just the pump assembly without the Attesa ecu and G sensors, I bet it is hard to come by and a pricey fee at that. I can build my own PWM circuit for a fraction of the price and customize it to my own needs. If the pump is indeed controlled this way, would someone be kind enough to find out what range of frequencies the solenoid ticks happily at? I am not fortunate enough to have any real GTR's here in the states to lay hands on for testing purposes such as this.

-Tai


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## topspeed.ua (Dec 11, 2009)

Ok here how it is works.
there are 2 plugs on the pump assy. one needs + and -. strong ones. to make the pump pump into its own reservour.
then other plug has 4 wires. 2 of them are MAP sensor, i do not used. and 2 of them is the solenoid.
you need a SOLID STATE RELAY to run this colenoid as the device you will be controlling it will not have enough speed and power.

then you make line from pump into the transfer with the gauge in it. anything between 15-20 bars is full lock. anything in between is a split.

all you do you find the device that controlls frequency like a regular boost controller that you can input Frequency in Hz, like 20Hz, and then use a duty table and adjust what duty cycle equals to what pressure on the gauge. and then you just make a map say based on speed in solenoid duty cycle.

the only thin is, you can DROP pressure with the solenoid duty and pump not running at all, but to raise pressure you need the pump to pump up a little, so you need some MAP feedback to activate pump when pressure is balow desired pressure. but i did not needed it. I just pump 15-18 bars into it and then reduce the duty based on the speed for a drag car. 

but this is how it works.


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## ItzGenX (Jul 29, 2010)

topspeed.ua said:


> Ok here how it is works.
> there are 2 plugs on the pump assy. one needs + and -. strong ones. to make the pump pump into its own reservour.
> then other plug has 4 wires. 2 of them are MAP sensor, i do not used. and 2 of them is the solenoid.
> you need a SOLID STATE RELAY to run this colenoid as the device you will be controlling it will not have enough speed and power.
> ...



I can build a 30amp (I know, way overkill) PWM with an adjustable frequency trim pot built on ranging anywhere between 10Hz to 20KHz and adjustable duty cyle on a seperate trim pot allowing 0-100% duty. This PWM should be more then enough to drive the solenoid directly, taking the place of a solid-state relay you recommend. Is 20Hz the best frequency to use on the solenoid? Also, you stated that you can bleed pressure with the pump off, but can this also be true by controlling the solenoid duty at 0-1% while the pump is running?


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