# why garrett ballbearing turbos are best?



## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

been talking to a mate of a mate whos a turbo expert...works for a big turbo company...

i thought old journalbearing are more reliable, he told me naaa mate... ball bearing turbos garrretts) only fail if these things happen......
extreme heat soak back (water lines must be run)
engine failure leading to no oil supply
foreign object / particles impacting the turbine or compressor wheels

anyone can back him up? think i belive the bloke

ta mates.... u problaly know i aint sharpest tool...lol


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Imho he is right, those aren't the ONLY reason for failure but they are a lot more tolerant than journal bearing turbos as far as I know. The big advantage to journal bearing turbos in industrial use is that they are really cheap to rebuild, bearing kits etc can be got for bugger all. With BB turbos the core is a large cost of the overall turbo


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

What he says is true but If the bearings overheat and fail they can drop nice little ballbearings and bits of bearing cage material down the oil drain into the sump..


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

blue34 said:


> What he says is true but If the bearings overheat and fail they can drop nice little ballbearings and bits of bearing cage material down the oil drain into the sump..


Run a gauze filter element in the drain?

Be aware some Garrett turbos do not have Ni-Resist (trade mark name) high nickel content cast iron turbine housings. If you run these on a serious engine with high egts for sustained periods the inside of the turbine housing flakes and the particles erode the turbine blade tips. IMHO you MUST KNOW that turbine housings are high nickel iron, not plain old grey iron as many low end and pretty much all diesel turbine housings are. Garrett list those WITH these housings on their official web sites. For example, this one:

TurboByGarrett.com - Catalog

If the outside of the turbine housing is slaking off materiel if you hit it with a screwdriver tip, you know what's happening on the inside. There are loads of 4088 turbos that do this in use on performance engines. There are also loads of fake Garretts out of China and Taiwan. I only buy from an affiliated Garrett dealer, and from the UK, so warranty claims should be painless. You can also ensure they have access to rebuild parts by asking in writing before buying a turbo. Try getting some HKS ones rebuilt, or HKS gearbox parts, or HKS damper spares......  My tip is always ring a company you are buying from wanting a mythical spare part for whatever you are thinking of buying. There wouldn't be a rook of broken Trust (Quaife) gearboxes about, a raft of leaking and knocking HKS dampers, or HKS dog boxes awaiting bits for months from Japan, if people took this simple step. I have 2 cars here now that have left their owners open to huge bills due to no spares availability for expensive after market units.


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

I have been told that journal bearing is far more robust than ballbeaing. 
Thas the reason most industrial machines / engines where high pressures / high friction load on the shaft due to constant changes in start/stop for long durations (like bus, ambulance, Military etc etc are Journal bearing based turbos)

Ballbearing does not guarantee a faster spooling, many other variable are at stake, such as Engine demand, A/R, Turbine wheel blades/ Ported schroud etc etc 

Could be another interesting thread


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

EndlessR said:


> Ballbearing does not guarantee a faster spooling, many other variable are at stake, such as Engine demand, A/R, Turbine wheel blades/ Ported schroud etc etc


All other things equal, a ball bearing unit will have less resistance which would result in increase spool response. 

Also remember early N1 turbos were journal/bush bearing, where as later N1s were ball bearing... remembering N1s were for competitve use, were reliability is king.
Infact, this change seems to apply to most OEM turbos.


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

infamous_t said:


> All other things equal, a ball bearing unit will have less resistance which would result in increase spool response.
> 
> Also remember early N1 turbos were journal/bush bearing, where as later N1s were ball bearing... remembering N1s were for competitve use, were reliability is king.
> Infact, this change seems to apply to most OEM turbos.


100% agree...They do offer less resistance, all things being equal that is. 
I think if a customer is upgrading his journal bearing turbos to ballbeaing design, then the increase will be noticed as everything is equal. Its a good advancement on production engines that remain unchanged from factory spec.

Tuned engines are far from identical, so my point was ballbearing isnt always best, and shouldnt be chosen just because a friend or someone recommends it over journal bearing turbos, as tuned engines are different, demand will be different, and turbocharger design varies between makers.


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

cheers Chris, damn good info u said thre :thumbsup: that bloke sez the same as you did... he says the -10s are rite up there for tuning...he reckons their no.1

endler...i thot dat as well but the bloke sez lots of lorry turbos get shaftplay and then its a goner but they dont complain much coz its cheap and easy to fix...he sez the new bb turbos are just so much better that they spool better and last longer


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

godzirra said:


> cheers Chris, damn good info u said thre :thumbsup: that bloke sez the same as you did... he says the -10s are rite up there for tuning...he reckons their no.1
> 
> endler...i thot dat as well but the bloke sez lots of lorry turbos get shaftplay and then its a goner but they dont complain much coz its cheap and easy to fix...he sez the new bb turbos are just so much better that they spool better and last longer


I only used that Garrett part number to show how they indicate which models have the Ni-Resist housings, it wasn't meant as a recommendation as to suitability air flow wise for any specific application.


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

Chris Wilson said:


> I only used that Garrett part number to show how they indicate which models have the Ni-Resist housings, it wasn't meant as a recommendation as to suitability air flow wise for any specific application.


oh sorry mate...my bad...i aint too sharp lol :clap:

awesome build u got tho...what turbos are you planning to use?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

My RB26 engine is on the -10 turbos, but it's a track only engine and low end power isn't a priority. I may regret the choice, but I have to start somewhere  Thanks


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Plain bearing turbo's are a LOT more likely to fail from being turned off before they have spooled down.
Another reason for going to bb cartridge. 
Plain bearing turbo's actually have less resistance than bb when running at working speeds.
Its not really fair to compare 1990's turbo technology / metalurgy with 2010 turbo's.
The grp A touring car turbo's were pretty good in the reliablility area.
But plain bearing turbo's are a lot more prone to failure from dirty oil, premature oil feed stoppage etc:
Out right power produced is not really a factor from the core type.


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## EndlessR (Nov 6, 2007)

godzirra said:


> cheers Chris, damn good info u said thre :thumbsup: that bloke sez the same as you did... he says the -10s are rite up there for tuning...he reckons their no.1
> 
> endler...i thot dat as well but the bloke sez lots of lorry turbos get shaftplay and then its a goner but they dont complain much coz its cheap and easy to fix...he sez the new bb turbos are just so much better that they spool better and last longer


If it was the best option, then all lorries and industrial applications would use ballbearing......they don`t because the current ballbearing technology doesnt offer relilability when high PR are required. Its the reason why Holset and Mitsubishi are still Journal bearing. Holset is working on a ballbearing design, as it says there are benifits there, but they need a design that will withstand the day to day abuse of the hard working engines their turbos go on. There design is a total rethink of the ballbearing system, but will offer greater relilability. MHI are working on a very impressive new design, not ballbearing and not on small turbos yet, but a motor that is controlled by ECU and is attached to the compressor wheel shaft tip, electronically spooling the turbo to match engine demand. That is very exciting.....as they are almost working on a method that has no lag, and due to the location of the motor (not near the exhaust side, its a technology that would be used on petrol cars where high EGT are stopping other technologies from diesel engines crossing over.


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

i rekon a gtx type -5 would rox! spool like -5 but make -10 power :thumbsup:


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

just noticed the 2860s all run cast 'inconel' turbine wheels...is dat a good thing?


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

godzirra said:


> just noticed the 2860s all run cast 'inconel' turbine wheels...is dat a good thing?


Google it and make your own informed decision instead of being spoonfed answers.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Awesome


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

ta matey...i aint a smart bloke ...did a gogle thingy but cudnt make head or tails..

just me mate sez again last nite ..the 2860s are dem good turbos coz very new age stuff...he sez t04z is like 40 years old,even new gt4094 ones aint got those nikel or inconel stuff

lol,shud listened to my teacher more


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

this is interesting stuff. i have just knackered my HKS 25-30`s and have tried looking for a spares kit. nearest i have come so far is £500 per turbo to repair!
i could buy a decent set of new turbos for that, admittedly not ball bearing.

any suggestions on a way forward? my build wil be mainly for track work, but carefully warmed up and cooled down...and i defo do not want to go down the HKS route again, pain in the arse for spares & repairs.

are there alternatives out there?


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## godzirra (Sep 16, 2009)

nick the tubman said:


> this is interesting stuff. i have just knackered my HKS 25-30`s and have tried looking for a spares kit. nearest i have come so far is £500 per turbo to repair!
> i could buy a decent set of new turbos for that, admittedly not ball bearing.
> 
> any suggestions on a way forward? my build wil be mainly for track work, but carefully warmed up and cooled down...and i defo do not want to go down the HKS route again, pain in the arse for spares & repairs.
> ...


sum1 selling -5s for 800 quid from spain way... but been run 15k miles tho

hit n miss i rekon...me mate sez even if u buy diamond-new turbos, juz a blocked oil line or water line can ruin dem

n if u run turbos that been run high-mileage, if dey were run properlike all the while, n u set them up rite, they woud last long too


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

nick the tubman said:


> this is interesting stuff. i have just knackered my HKS 25-30`s and have tried looking for a spares kit. nearest i have come so far is £500 per turbo to repair!
> i could buy a decent set of new turbos for that, admittedly not ball bearing.
> 
> any suggestions on a way forward? my build wil be mainly for track work, but carefully warmed up and cooled down...and i defo do not want to go down the HKS route again, pain in the arse for spares & repairs.
> ...


My advice is to only buy turbo chargers from a UK source who can rebuild them with parts and the requisite machinery to hand. HKS stuff sounds glamorous, but if the repair parts and expertise are not in the UK, you have a huge problem. Before buying ANY expensive car bits ask a hypothetical repair question.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

godzirra said:


> sum1 selling -5s for 800 quid from spain way... but been run 15k miles tho
> 
> hit n miss i rekon...me mate sez even if u buy diamond-new turbos, juz a blocked oil line or water line can ruin dem
> 
> n if u run turbos that been run high-mileage, if dey were run properlike all the while, n u set them up rite, they woud last long too


Do you speak in the same short hand in which you write? Are you English or Jamaican or Spanish? Advice for someone shopping in the Greater Antilles or other places will be very different than for the UK.


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## dmcl1980 (Aug 26, 2006)

I bought a pair of -5's second hand a while back and for piece of mind had them rebuilt. Sent them to Turbotechnics for a full rebuild only cost £360. My advice would be the same as above forget the flash names and get some turbos that if anything were to go wrong can be rebuilt locally and relatively cheaply


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

dmcl1980 said:


> I bought a pair of -5's second hand a while back and for piece of mind had them rebuilt. Sent them to Turbotechnics for a full rebuild only cost £360. My advice would be the same as above forget the flash names and get some turbos that if anything were to go wrong can be rebuilt locally and relatively cheaply


thanks for the advice. think the 2860-5`s are the way forward for mme. quick spool up, plenty of power through to my 7500rpm limit and fairly chep to re-build. just need to find some now..
any idea how much new they are for a pair?


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## dmcl1980 (Aug 26, 2006)

cheapest place I have found them new is through psi supply who is a trader on here.


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

Chris Wilson said:


> My advice is to only buy turbo chargers from a UK source who can rebuild them with parts and the requisite machinery to hand. HKS stuff sounds glamorous, but if the repair parts and expertise are not in the UK, you have a huge problem. Before buying ANY expensive car bits ask a hypothetical repair question.


If you can get garrets rebuilt locally, you can get hks turbos rebuilt.
They are essentially the same


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

2860r-5's are near as dammit to the 2530 ... its been discussed 50 million times here already 
possibly more


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