# Engine Idea....



## Freddy2 (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm up too late, high on coffee candy and redbull, and crazy stuff starts to appear in my brain...
First idea:
Two RB26( heads ) mated to a 60deg V12 block(Capable of running at atleast 10.000RPM)... 
Internals forged out some Ti-Fe-C* alloy 
Variable valve timing
Two turbos per bank

Second idea:
The thing to put the before mentioned engine into.
Frame - Type
I was thinking of a frame like the r34's, but then a bit shorter wheelbase with a wider track. Engine mounted midship. 4WD. 
- Material
Was thinking of a CF/Ti sandwich with the difference in layer 45deg grain.
Or just plain CF with high strain/stress/loaded points made out of forged Ti.
Body- 
Lower, Wider, Meaner r34 with the cockpit moved a bit more forward and the windscreen at a bit sharper angle( wraparound like the 35). In a real glossy/shiny Bayside Blue finish. Dark tinted windows, matt_black 19" wheels. Keeping the 34 Headlights, but slightly tilted( no [email protected] LEDs on the front)
This shell made out of CF.

I think this(mostly the engine )deserves some debate and further development in my brain and maybe some input from you guys.

Flame On!!!
Freddy


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## T80 GTR (Jan 10, 2010)

That sounds sick.… would love to see both ideas come to life.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Two words....

Scary Expensive!


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Has anyone ever wondered why low volume car manufacturers rarely develop their own engines but use other, large scale manufacturers?

It's because the development costs are astronomical. The engine in the Jun Super Lemon allegedly cost £150K and they knew what they were doing to a standard engine from the outset. I'd bet that to achieve the V12 with 2 RB26 heads would need about £400k to £500K throwing at it as a minimum and it could easily increase as problems are encountered. What block would you mate the heads to that hadn't got twin cam 4 valve heads anyway?

If you want a V12 engine, get a Lamborghini or Mercedes unit and be safe in the knowledge that someone else has done the development.

Unless you are a millionaire with good contacts in the automotive industry I doubt if your plans for the V12 will bear fruit. Good luck if you try.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Why use RB26 heads? You think they are good?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

I toyed with the idea of a V12 with twin 26 heads but unless you could run both inlets on the inside of the v I don't think it would look right, it was about then that I decided not to continue, lol.

I think the next engine I will work on seriously will be the VK56, I have 2 and they are a real nice bit of gear when you strip off all the crap.

Robbie.


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## Freddy2 (Jan 18, 2010)

It only takes an idea for something awesome to happen.
The RB26 is(has) a fantastic/well engineered head. For now it only is an idea, but you never know...
Mr. Ward, i also wanted the intakes on the inner side of the v. Was thinking about getting the head mirrored in autocat or catia and cnc milling it out...
The VK engines are nasty v8, i think in your hands monstrous things will happen ( considering what the Super GT and GT1 engines do without restrictions ) Really looking forward to those v8 s. Are you planning to force feed them or are you going to keep them NA?


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## Max Boost (Apr 9, 2010)

OP needs to lay off the peyote. Why on earth would you use such antiquated heads? There has been a few decades of development since the RB26 head came out, improvements in materials and design leave the RB head in the dark ages.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Freddy2 said:


> Really looking forward to those v8 s. Are you planning to force feed them or are you going to keep them NA?


Twin turbo, we'd need around 2000hp to make it worth doing in the class we'd use them in but 6hp/ci should be pretty reliable on petrol as we are reliably making well over that hp/ci ratio with the RB30 on petrol.

Rob


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## Freddy2 (Jan 18, 2010)

Max Boost said:


> OP needs to lay off the peyote. Why on earth would you use such antiquated heads? There has been a few decades of development since the RB26 head came out, improvements in materials and design leave the RB head in the dark ages.


 Its high sucrose caffeinated candy at 3am i need to lay off of, LOL.
But for a basic concept the RB seems more than worth it, especially if you take in to consideration that it can be milled out of the before mentioned alloy.
In a few years there will be even more exotic alloys with far greater properties according to my materials professor/lecturer


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## Freddy2 (Jan 18, 2010)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> Twin turbo, we'd need around 2000hp to make it worth doing in the class we'd use them in but 6hp/ci should be pretty reliable on petrol as we are reliably making well over that hp/ci ratio with the RB30 on petrol.
> 
> Rob


Exactly the monstrous things i was referring to...
It must be so awesome to be you:bowdown1:
Keep us posted, if not on the forum then by PM

Freddy


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## Max Boost (Apr 9, 2010)

Freddy2 said:


> Its high sucrose caffeinated candy at 3am i need to lay off of, LOL.
> But for a basic concept the RB seems more than worth it, especially if you take in to consideration that it can be milled out of the before mentioned alloy.
> In a few years there will be even more exotic alloys with far greater properties according to my materials professor/lecturer


if you're going to mill an engine from scratch, why use head designs that are over 20 years old?


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

^ What he said.....

Have you any idea the amount of work that is involved in drawing a solid model of a cylinder head, then programming and machining it. Its a massive job that you would need seriously deep pockets for.

To use an rb26 head as a base for a project like this isnt logical. Even something like the ford xr6 turbo head is light years ahead in terms of design.

What about something like taking an r35 engine and modelling that, extend it to be a v12 then machine your own cylinder heads, crankcase and crank. You would have a left and right head to copy and the design is light years ahead of anything rb.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Putting 2 engines in Tandem as rb30r34 seems to be suggesting wouldn't work well. You could end up snapping crankshafts... Think about the rearward crank not only having to deliver it's own engine's power, but having another engine's attached to the front. Power boat teams found out the hard way this doesn't work well.

Anyways, you'd be looking at major weight & space problems, etc. And crazy amounts of money. Clearly nobody's ever going to successfully complete such a project.


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

Miguel - Newera said:


> Putting 2 engines in Tandem as rb30r34 seems to be suggesting wouldn't work well. You could end up snapping crankshafts... Think about the rearward crank not only having to deliver it's own engine's power, but having another engine's attached to the front. Power boat teams found out the hard way this doesn't work well.
> 
> Anyways, you'd be looking at major weight & space problems, etc. And crazy amounts of money. Clearly nobody's ever going to successfully complete such a project.


I didnt say put 2 engines in tandem, the reasons you describe for not doing this is also why i wouldnt.

What I meant was to draw a model of the r35 engine,then extend the model to have 6 cylinders per bank.
Then program and machine custom cylinder heads, v12 crank and crank case. This way you would be able to use standard rods pistons etc...

Still crazy expensive tho. Theres no getting around that.


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Use a Benz V12..


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

But where is the challenge in that? Lol


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Can't see how you could successfully mill a head to get proper water galleries and porting? Would've thought it would have to be cast. No one has mentioned cams yet either. Another major expense. 

Rolls Royce aero engineers decided to graft 2 Merlin V12's together to create the Vulture X (I think it was called) and it was a total **** up. Underpowered, overcomplicated and unreliable. Admittedly it was a long time ago.

Don't understand why the OP wants high revs. A properly tuned Mercedes V12 bi-turbo will kick out high power but deliver monstrous torque. Surely this would be preferable to high revs?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

If I was ever going to go to the trouble of doing something like that I'd want 500-600ci at least with late model design 4 valve heads so it was well worth the effort and 2500-3000hp with turbo's could be easily do-able because of sheer cubes.

The yanks are nearly up to 1000ci with their V8s, I wonder who will be the first to do 1000ci just for typical yanky bragging rights.

Rob


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> The yanks are nearly up to 1000ci with their V8s, I wonder who will be the first to do 1000ci just for typical yanky bragging rights.


16.4 litre? You'd think they'd go for more cylinders to keep it balanced and smooth. Still, it might be seen as an admission that the V8 had had it's day in American drag racing! It would be viewed as un-American and against the constitution.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

W24 would sort out the cubes ...


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

GT-R Glenn said:


> W24 would sort out the cubes ...


Here we go then. Napier Lion W12 (not invented by VW Audi!!), 24 litre (1465ci), broad arrow config. Gives 450-900bhp so plenty of room for Rob to work some magic on it. Engine was built from 1917 to 1930's



Napier also manufactured the Sabre which was 2 flat 12's one on top of the other. It was about 36/37 litre and the final incarnation shoved out about 5500bhp. Downside on those was the sleeve valves but I think Bristol helped them with the manufacturing and clearances.



Just shows, there's not much new, it's all re-cycled.


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## andre_gtr (Aug 23, 2010)

this guy did it with a motorcycle 

v12 Kawa

but it seems You have to be a nuclear research engineer :bowdown1:


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

andre_gtr said:


> this guy did it with a motorcycle
> 
> v12 Kawa
> 
> but it seems You have to be a nuclear research engineer :bowdown1:


Good find and an interesting read.


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

TAZZMAXX said:


> Can't see how you could successfully mill a head to get proper water galleries and porting? Would've thought it would have to be cast. No one has mentioned cams yet either. Another major expense.


5 axis machining center will do the porting fine. Water jacket could be machined but a cast one would be better. Massive job to program a machine to do this tho and you need a 5 axis mill. Not cheap lol


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

rb30r34 said:


> 5 axis machining center will do the porting fine. Water jacket could be machined but a cast one would be better. Massive job to program a machine to do this tho and you need a 5 axis mill. Not cheap lol


The OP must have stacks of spare cash. If I had that sort of money I'd be chasing fast women not fast cars!:chuckle:


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

A V12 from two RB is sort of nice on the basis that I have an RB so two of them in one engine would be twice as good.

If you want a V12 to play with then the Jag, BMW or even Mercedes units can be had pretty cheaply.

However if you want to build a fantasy engine then a V12 based on a pair of RB heads is small beer to my mind. The power to weight ratio of the engine wouldn't be brilliant - RBs are heavy old lumps.

My fantasy engine would include one of the following:

4 x Hyabusa heads in a double boxer (or X16 if you prefer) - light and powerful but I'm not sure how you'd mount it to anything

Inline 6 with 2 stroke cycle. Probably with a supercharger - should weigh bugger all and produce fearsome amounts of power and torque

4+ rotor engine. Bolt a pair of Mazda engines together. Can't be that hard can it...... - YouTube - Mazda 787b Mine Circuit (High Volume!)


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