# Is the GTR R34 Better Than Porsche 996GT2?



## vincentdds (Jan 25, 2007)

I have own a Porsche 996GT2 for awhile and recently considering a GTR R34. I realized that the R34 are the holy grails of import tuners. But I have not personally seen how they perform on the road race track in person. I want to know how are these cars compare to the 996GT2 in terms of reliable performance on the street/track if tuned to the same hp? How do you compare their handlings?


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

You don't..........different cars.

You could ask 100 people who had driven both which was better and you'd get different answers for different reasons.

I've driven both and the GT2 is by far the better handling car in most circumstances........but that doesn't mean I'd have one over my GTR.....

Just depends on what you want. Only way you can tell is drive one and go from there............different beasts.....


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## sky 1t (Nov 5, 2004)

I know of two people on here that have now got 996GT2's after selling their R34's
It's a Strange situation to be in for you as most will own a GTR first & then move on to a Porsche, i really don't know what you will be in for, better or worse? Good luck what ever you decide?


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

I think you're thinking of the GT3 Sky 1t, that's non turbo and what some on here have moved to, well GT3 RS's to be precise.

GT2 is 2 wheel drive, turbo........nearly 500HP (485 odd)

But my original comments would still stand regardless of model. You've gotta drive a GTR to know if you prefer it.

Certainly more usable if you've got a family........no space in the back of a GT3 RS or a GT2 worth talking about.


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## vincentdds (Jan 25, 2007)

I am by not mean replacing my Gt2 w/ the R34 but only consider adding it to my stable. As stated above, the comparison was to be between a modded R34 w/ similar 500-600hp. The Gt3 is an NA car / different power delivery and tuneabilities thus is not as good of a comparison as the GT2.


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## R4LLY (Aug 9, 2006)

why dont you modify the gt2:chuckle: ..... try Welcome to Evolve (look at the projects)


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## knight (Mar 2, 2002)

I know 2 people who went from big power Skylines, 1 had an R34 and the other an R33 to a 996 GT2. Both GT2s have been modified and both owners say that the Porsche has been the nicer/more reliable/better car to own. Thats not to say they didn't like the Skyline, it just comes across as a different type of beast But as you will be adding to your stable then it's not an issue, get one and enjoy it


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## BBD (May 30, 2002)

Facts,, Porche is the better car built quality power handeling and even reliability You cant compare it to the GTR34 in Standard mod cuz the 34 Sucks as standard and can not go the distance of the porche on the race track

After fitting a few bits n bobs on my GTR34 I can wave bye bye to any porsche owner/driver on the track GT2's 3's Turbos they all look the same from the GTR's rear view mirror.

Porshce has always been a better daily driver but you see them more than ants anywhere in the world fleas they win races by their sheer numbers.

Any Porsche owner or driver automaticaly becomes my nemesis


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

canman said:


> I think you're thinking of the GT3 Sky 1t, that's non turbo and what some on here have moved to, well GT3 RS's to be precise.
> 
> GT2 is 2 wheel drive, turbo........nearly 500HP (485 odd)
> 
> ...


Canman, I never drove the GT2, but how can a RWD car have better handling then a GTR-AWD+Hicas? as this precise combination was invented in the purpose of allowing a car superior in and out speed in cornering and stability?


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## Samuel Cross (Aug 2, 2002)

gtrlux said:


> Canman, I never drove the GT2, but how can a RWD car have better handling then a GTR-AWD+Hicas? as this precise combination was invented in the purpose of allowing a car superior in and out speed in cornering and stability?


Outright grip is not the same as handling.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

I actually agree thats it not particularly relevent to compare the cars, as they are designed for different purposes at different price levels. The R34 is half the price of a GT2 and has 4 seats, 4wd, a large boot and is front engined, so could hardly be more different from a GT2.

The GT2 is built for track and built for speed, it will do trackdays all day long as one of the fastest stock cars there (excluding radicals or Carrera GTs) without issue and drive at max speed for a full tank of fuel without an issue (Porsche tested them at Nardo for this to ensure all the oil temps are ok for two full fuel tanks use straight at 196mph). You can also do all this with a full factory warranty that can be extended for up 9 years at only £700 per year. It is supreme engineering.

The GTR on the other hand is a far more practical proposition, able to seat 4 adults and luggage in comfort, with more gadgets. They are also very reliable if kept standard (slow) or mildly tuned to around 500bhp, which is relatively cheap and easy. They will go way beyond 500bhp, but reliability and drivability quickly suffers. On track they are too heavy, the suspension and brakes are not designed for trackwork and the cars needs a lot of work to become a good trackcar, which is why you see few on circuits. In addition, the engine is not dry-sumped, so there have always been occasional problems on all GTRs of oil stavation leading to spun-bearings when used on track.

If you can have both then get both, they are both fun, in very different ways and will end up having very different uses. Be aware though that all the UK spec R34s were built in 1999, so are now 7 years old. Be careful when buying as all are without warranty, most have been modded now with varying degrees of success both here and abroad, so make sure you buy a good car with the advice of a good tuner if buying a tuned one.

As for my experience, I had R32, R33 and R34s from 500-1000bhp and now drive a Ruf GT2 with 630bhp. I do still occasionally miss the R34 though. If I did it again I would buy a mint standard R34 and fit an OS Giken 3.0 engine and run about 550-600bhp on small turbos for a good standard road car, I would not bother taking it on track if I had a GT2.

Guy


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## usagtrpilot (Aug 19, 2005)

The beauty of a GTR is that they are probably the most tunable cars on the planet. 

A stock GTR is relatively a blank canvas, leaving the owner with a large choice of upgrades and customization options to suit his desires. 

Fit the right combination of parts, and have it tuned by a competent tuner, and a GTR can hang with them all..

My $.02


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

BBD said:


> Any Porsche owner or driver automaticaly becomes my nemesis


DIE!


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> DIE!


Is that you Cem?:nervous: :nervous:


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## bullitt78 (Aug 19, 2006)

Short answer: NO
Good to see you are adding to the collection and not replacing the GT2 with a Nissan.
Properly tuned and built to, say, 550-600hp a GT-R will be much fun, and faster than factory standard GT2, not to mention roomier and more functional. More enjoyable? Well, that depends on the person.
Just do it!!


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## Alan (Jul 1, 2001)

Originally Posted by BBD 
Any Porsche owner or driver automaticaly becomes my nemesis



Blow Dog said:


> DIE!


I,ve been in it Cem its *AWESOME* :clap: :thumbsup: :clap: :thumbsup: :clap:


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## GTR RGT (Aug 29, 2006)

I had one of them GOLD letter day things not RED, 8 Laps in a Lamborghini Gallardo and mercialeigo both have more power then my 34 but I still prefer my skyline..... :runaway:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Porsches are just built in a way the Japanese dont understand.

There is pretty much no common ground between any "GT" Porsche and a GTR other than the letters themselves and as Guy has said they do everything differently from a defferent starting point, so there is no comparison.

I miss my 34 really badly, and the only reason I went down the path of evil is that I cant afford to run a 34 again in the way I would want for fear of breakages and the costs involved. The GT3 is a fraction of the yearly costs the Skyline was.

If you can have both then do it, but theres no point asking for whether you will like it or not, if you have the money then I cant see why you would come on here to ask questions you are easily going to find the answers to in a couple of days. Take your money, visit a couple of dealers and see what the different cars are like. End of question !!!

   

J.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

bladerider said:


> Porsches are just built in a way the Japanese dont understand.


:blahblah: 
Or maybe there were nearly no performance cars in japan that cost more then 60000$, because the average japanese thinks about what he really needs on the every day streets in japan, and therefore the manufactures are in first place listening to their own consumers and japanese spirit . . . .
If you want a track car, build it yourself, the aftermarket is the best , the cheapest and biggest in the world . . .and many tracks to live your passion can be found every where . . . . .

The rest of the world can just be happy that the japanese have a relax and balanced sense of life and imposed themselves to be moderated in every thing they're producing. 
With out a problem they could have produced unusefull supercars, no-280HP gentleman agreement, 600HP engines, 1m flat rockets, opulent luxury in non-luxury car sengements ex . . . .

That's the main difference between japan and the west---Porsche and the Nissan . . . .


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## BBD (May 30, 2002)

Well then Guy basically said it all and goes along with what I have pointed out. Porches DNA is genetically superior Owning a Skyline I am very biased towards them, and should think they are invincible, but when that Porsche over takes me or runs an extra 5 laps because I had to slow down for the temps to cool off I go back to my garage find the problem and solve it.

Without Porsche my car would not be what it is today, and I have to admit my lead in its current position has been getting slimmer due to the newer Porsche arrivals.










and my quote


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

think you could give my dad a copy of that magazine next month Mo?


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

The Skyline engine, chassis etc is based mainly on a 1988/89 Front engined design to meet motorsport rules (16 inch wheels etc) and although it had two major revisions since then the underlying mechanicals were basically 90% the same. It was also aimed more at the M5/GT type market on the road in later years more so than the 911 market.

In their day the GT-Rs were king - no ifs, and no buts - "King of The Road" but the last design revision was 1998 and the last production model was made 4 years ago . The new one will try or die to be King again but the 911 by all accounts is the better car today compared against the Skylines of old.

The 996 GT2 was a far more modern design, rear engined, had a LOT more money spent on it and was designed almost from the showroom to race in the GT2 series (GT3 for GT3 series etc) while the Skyline was a very crafty way of getting a supercar into the Japanese Touring car races in the late 1980's and had to leave the factory wearing an eye patch, hat and long overcoat not to get spotted as a supercar and had wheels and other bits and pieces restricted by 1980's racing rules.

Mod a GT-R correctly and you have a GT racer which is surprisingly easy to drive hard compared to any other car of it type even by today's standards.

The Skyline CAN make an amazing track car (if done correctly) and there are many out there hammering the sh*t out of Porsches (even modern ones on occasions) but the modern Porsche is a hell of a good car and coming 2nd to it is no shame. The fact that a nearly 20 year design can get mentioned in the same breath as it is quite amazing and the Nissan designers should be rightly proud of it.

To help any more we would need to know what purpose you would put the GT-R to - daily car, modding, track car (R32 would be cheaper and maybe even better) or something easier to drive hard than a RWD 911 with 500bhp lol. 

When the new GT-R comes out sell the Porsche and the Skyline and buy it .


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## GTRJack (Aug 27, 2005)

For the same horsepower you can compare 911 Turbo with an R34 GTR, (maybe not GT2). On track, street what ever they're pretty close performer hard to say which one is the best but on road presence I think the Porsche is a bit more of a chick magnet 

I personally think the new GTR this year will kick the butt out of the new 911 Turbo. Nissan can make a very good sport car, not to underrestimate. Just look at the pass from the 90'


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

After buying the car I would say the GTR would cost a lot more on upkeep for track use than the Porsche.Bullet proof engines describing the RB26 ,I dont think so ,they may be good but pleanty go wrong just like anything else .


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

It's strange that Vincentdds has not reposted  - maybe he was a 14 year old posting from school after all lol.


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## vincentdds (Jan 25, 2007)

skyline69_uk said:


> It's strange that Vincentdds has not reposted  - maybe he was a 14 year old posting from school after all lol.



Haha more like a 34yo. Believe me I am listening w/ unbiased ears. My GT2 is modded w/ 600+hp and if purchase R34 I am intending to mod it as well. Sorry to the Porsche haters but thank you to the true enthusiast that shared their unbiased opinions. Here 's a pic of my car 

LINK


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## GTR RGT (Aug 29, 2006)

thats soooo nice


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## carterjohn (Jul 27, 2006)

:bowdown1: 

nice vincent.


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## tacker (May 21, 2006)

I can tell you that the car of BBD is unbelievable fast!

But he has put a great deal of time getting his car to this level of performance where it out performs most other cars not just porsches. Still if i cant get hold of an R34 then it would be the GT3 for me.


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

If you're looking to one as an addition, I'd say go for it if you can afford to get one and do it right, it'll be a great compliment to your GT2.

The main thing is to aim for drivability and torque.......make it a real street car. Too many people get carried away with the big HP number when it's torque that really get these cars moving since they're not the lightest.

500-550HP at the wheels is plenty for a street car. 2.7, 2.8 or 3.0 litre is the way to go in my eyes.........with the right setup you'll see good low down grunt and still get the high end power too......

BTW, love what you've done with your GT2.......very nice.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

gtrlux said:


> :blahblah:
> Or maybe there were nearly no performance cars in japan that cost more then 60000$, because the average japanese thinks about what he really needs on the every day streets in japan, and therefore the manufactures are in first place listening to their own consumers and japanese spirit . . . .
> If you want a track car, build it yourself, the aftermarket is the best , the cheapest and biggest in the world . . .and many tracks to live your passion can be found every where . . . . .
> 
> ...



You have illustrated my point perfectly, thank you.

Porsche dont start off looking at what they can do without, they just look at what the car needs to perform its task to the highest standard.

Please dont try and enlighten me to what good cars skylines are, I am somewhat ahead of you on that score, its just that I am not blinkered by them either.

J.


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## DAN00H (Jul 14, 2004)

The original nissan GTR (fitted with the s20) was designed to compete with the porsche and it surprised by winning quite a lot. The R32 was designed to do the same thing, it was so successful, it was banned!

Don't forget guys that the 996 is a lot newer design than the R34 GTR (which is basically R32 with cosmentics, which was designed in the 80's! - testament to the orignal car  ). I like the GT2, but I think the GTR is a great car as well and would not shame anyone 

I'd certainly have both if I had the money!!! I look forward to the next generation GTR....


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

bladerider,
I not want to enlighten you about the GTR on what ever, . . . . 
You stated that the japanese don't understand what Porsche does, a comment that I hear often . . . .

99% of the world don't understand a damn about japan, because they don't care to understand, do not speak the language, had never been there or lived there and most of all don't want to trow their ego mentality over board to actually understand that japanese thinking is very different from the rest of the world!

The japanese are building cars that people really need in japan(in a balanced culture), the west is producing cars that every body wants, but nobody really needs (in a egocentric cultutre).

Japan has high technology, performance cars, very reliable that fit to the high standards of the japanese society-needs, for a price that most japanese can pay.
The west has ultra performance cars, that don't fit to any needs of the every day life in the society, for prices that nobody can pay.

At the end of the day the japanese seats back and enjoys his masterpiece of engineering, wich is compatible with his needs and fits perfect the roads, country-culture where he lives in.

90% of the european dream about silly expensive cars, they can never afford. And when the few rich boys are owning them, most of them anyway own them to feed their ego and show off their life standard . . . 

Respect to the other rich, who can afford theses cars and actualy drive them on tracks the way they should . . . they should just not forget about the luck they have, because 90% of the people around them can't and will never share that standard.


That is what you have to think ,when you talk about the GTR.

One last thing, the GTR, NSX and co weren't made to show the world that they are better then the western competition, but to show the japanese customers that they can build better cars then the west, cars that the japaneses can afford and enjoy with every day needs. . .


NOW I will get my coat:banned: 

Sayonara


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## EvolutionVI (Sep 6, 2005)

@gtrlux: It cant be said any better:bowdown1:


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## Porkie (Aug 5, 2003)

skyline69_uk said:


> The 996 GT2 was a far more modern design, rear engined, had a LOT more money spent on it and was designed almost from the showroom to race in the GT2 series (.


No it wasn't! It was only ever designed to be a road car.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

stealth said:


> After buying the car I would say the GTR would cost a lot more on upkeep for track use than the Porsche.Bullet proof engines describing the RB26 ,I dont think so ,they may be good but pleanty go wrong just like anything else .



That may be so but dont forget the whole Porsche Rear Main Seal problems that plauged 911's and boxsters. Dont get me wrong, I love Porsches and aspire to buy a 996 GT3RS in the not too distant future but they have their problems too. Also, to balance the equation, you ARE correct stating that the RB can be fragile sometimes. Coming from a background of working on cars for a living I can tell you quite categorically that NO engine manufacturer can claim 100% reliability (unless someone can prove me wrong!).

You just have too look after them well. Mind you, even then they can still bite you in the bum and go bang for no (apparent) reason. Its all down to luck IMHO.

As has been said the GTR and GT2 are completely different proposals and, if I had the money, I would buy them both and be done with it TBH


TT


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

This is an interesting debate, precisely because it is one I am having with my husband at the moment! 

I've been hanging around looking at R34GTRs for over a year now, with the intention to buy one but I was taken out in a Porsche recently and my outlook has, shall we say, been widened! 

The thing about the Porsche is it feels like you could drive to the south of France and arrive refreshed, and there isn't a damn thing you need to do to it to make it handle, stop or go impressively. The Skyline needs 'more work' to drive, plus really needs improving to get to the same point as the performance of the Porsche (was very impressed with 911 and the 3.2S Boxster as a matter of fact). I think I am getting old and like comfort.:nervous: 

My views from trying both so please don't flame, and I fully admit to being totally confused now over what to get!
Regards
T


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Well Toni, I too had my eyes opened when I had a test drive of a 911. Lovely piece of engineering. I think it all comes down to one thing.....love. No, seriously :chuckle: . I have loved the GTR for many years and was going to get one no matter what stood in my way. Love sometimes blinds us and I fully admit that the GTR has its weak points. I think the Porsche is pehaps more accomplished straight out of the box whereas you rightly say that the GTR requires some attention. I was very surprised how comfortable the 911 was as a GT car. You really could drive through the alps in it and not feel fatigued at the other end. The GTR would be, dare I say, a nightmare. Mind you mine is VERY stiffly sprung.
I think that you need to decide on what it is you are looking for in the car. A 911 is nowhere near as practical as a GTR. Theres no way we could even fit our 8 year old comfortably in the back of the 911 we drove. As for luggage for a trip away, I think you would have to make some serious compromises. The GTR can take 4 AND carry a good deal of luggage/bags.

They are both great cars. I think your requirements will decide for you if you know what I mean....

TT


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Also part of the debate I'd had with hubby, on space etc. Boxster has a lot more than the 911 and is still a lovely car too.

Am stuck.:bawling: 
If I could have both I would, but I can't. So it'll come down to one or t'other!

I suspect though if you already have a nice Porsche (i.e. chap who started this thread) you will find the Skyline quite harsh.
T


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

tarmac terror said:


> That may be so but dont forget the whole Porsche Rear Main Seal problems that plauged 911's and boxsters. Dont get me wrong, I love Porsches and aspire to buy a 996 GT3RS in the not too distant future but they have their problems too.


RMA does not affect the GT3, GT2 or TT, as they have different crankcases based on the GT1 race engine.

Also RMS is only a seal failure, the seal costs about £200, even with labour it's under a grand so hardly a huge issue, it's just that Porsche owners are unused to failures so complain bitterly if anything goes wrong that they have to pay for.


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## stuartstaples (Nov 14, 2004)

Buy the 34, modify the 34 as you have stated but be ready to enjoy it for different things. The Porsche is a truly wonderful car ( I have experienced a GT3 not a GT2) and does so many things so easily and so well. You only have to go the Nurburgring to see these cars for the engineering marvels they are. They seem a little light at the front, for obvious reasons, and therefore the stability at high speeds can be a little disconcerting, for me anyway, so compared to that the stability of a 34 is a definite advantage. I'm sure with a few more miles under my belt in a Porsche, I'd relax and enjoy it........what a prospect that would be 

At the risk of hijacking the thread, your Ruf must be a bit special Guy. 630bhp! As James I discussed, the Porsche horses seem a little bit stronger than my Japanese ones


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

bladerider said:


> Porsches are just built in a way the Japanese dont understand.


Honda's are built in a way that the Germans can only dream of. I havent owned a porsche, I will admit. I have had just about every other german make and I see a lot of them, they are simply crap in comparison to Honda build quality imho, gearboxes, electronics, hell even the engines seem to be far more prone to faults than I would expect. I would love to see how the running costs of a carrera 2 compare to an NSX, I would imagine the difference is astounding.

Every time I buy any German products I think 'why the F*ck didnt I buy the Japanese model?' just like the dishwasher I bought, a Smeg - meant to be the best but its absolute sh1t, just like modern VAG and Merc products.

I know its off topic, but I felt the Japanese corner needed a bit of fighting here.


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

AJFleming said:


> Every time I buy any German products I think 'why the F*ck didnt I buy the Japanese model?' just like the dishwasher I bought, a Smeg - meant to be the best but its absolute sh1t, just like modern VAG and Merc products


Smeg is Italian - I think that's your problem.

Phil


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

stuartstaples said:


> At the risk of hijacking the thread, your Ruf must be a bit special Guy.


It is, take it from me. Simply brutal.


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## knight (Mar 2, 2002)

stuartstaples said:


> At the risk of hijacking the thread, your Ruf must be a bit special Guy. 630bhp!





> It is, take it from me. Simply brutal.



I 2nd that:smokin:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Philip said:


> Smeg is Italian - I think that's your problem.
> 
> Phil


Noooo

AJ's problem is that he doesnt know what he is talking about, but he likes to flap his gums alot !!! Smeg is cheap shyte, Miele is decent german and lasts forever, but even now is probably outsourced to some italians !!!

I love the way we are discussing a Porsche GT2 and a GTR34 but people like AJ feel the need to chip in with "I have never owned a Porsche, but I bet they're not built as well as a Honda" - or words to that effect - which has zero relevence to anything we are talking about.

I admire GTRLUX's love for the Japanese and their wonderful (or simply weird ??) culture describing how we in the West are a bunch of supercar making charlatans whereas the Japanese and their ability to make twin turbo cars do 112mph in possibly the most overcrowded city centres in the world, where living space is so cramped it leads to some of the highest prices per foot of anywhere in the world for the "poor japanese" workers to spend their hard earned on. However, I have never said the GTR was a bad car, just that the Porsche is so much better engineered, I have even gone to lengths to point out how stupid this kind of comparison is given they do everything differently starting from a totally different viewpoint !!! Yet still people try to force feed their doctrine down the necks who have already been there, done that.

The TOPIC is R34's and GT2's of which I know Guy is the only person here to have had that exact experience. I have had R34 and GT3 and others have had simlar but not exactly R34 and GT2 so why dont we all just shut up, re-read Guy's thoughts and then perhaps LEARN rather than simply inflate our lungs and try to pontificate on the subject we dont know fully about.

I am certainly bored with this topic.

J.:chairshot


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## Urbanjam3s (Jan 24, 2007)

U lot have to much money!!


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

. . . sorry to put again my 2 cent:
japan has no overcrowded cities, just crowded cities, Tokyo being a nightmare is true, but not as much as the weired western image of it!
Japan is not Tokyo and 180km and 280HP restrictions make a very sense in the japanese way of thinking. 
The benefits and negatives of this spirit, I can discuss them in an other thread . . . :runaway: 

My last word on this is, Porsches have to be better designed, cos why you would have to pay more then the double of a GTR for them. So what I miss in discussions is that people should be aware that the japanese build the best cars for the best price and that is more difficult then building a Carrera GT for 400000Euro.:chairshot


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Ah,

So its price thats the best argument, for someone just asking about a dynamic perspective !!!

Good thinkin fella !!!  

J.


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## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

well... there you have it. 

enough arguments about the Porsche history and development, vs the GTR etc. etc....

now go ahead and buy the GTR, add it to your stable and then you can say you've had a piece of the legend that the GTR is.

even after you sell it... love it or hate it... you've owned a SKYLINE GTR! Been a part of the club.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

I hope this has been a useful thread for VincentDD, I think it shows the maturity of the club that we can see past our chosen Skylines. I remember reading a similar thread once on an M3 club forum (M3 vs GT-R) and the result there was that no Skyline was standard and all but the standard ones would be a lot faster than a M3 and they are not to be raced against. They figured the M3 was a more rounded road car although - I was well surprised how mature that discussion had been also - well apart from some toffee-nosed-wannabe calling them Datsuns and thinking GT-Rs were beneath him .

IMHO option I would own both if possible/pausible etc and maybe throw an Evo into the mix too for crappy winter B road thrills.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

I run the risk of offending everyone on this forum, but this is my opinion to this question.

GT2 = X

where X = 2(GTR)

The GT2 is faster, quicker, better handling, provides a level of feedback that the GTR can only dream of, is better built and is supercar in status.

But then at twice the price, you'd expect it to be.

Try not to delude yourselves guys, loyalty is great but to denigrate something you've no experience of is foolish.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

bladerider said:


> Smeg is cheap shyte, Miele is decent german and lasts forever, but even now is probably outsourced to some italians !!!


Indeed. All that shines is not gold

Smeg is utter dog shit.

Im my shop we compare brands to cars

Smeg is Alfa
Bosch is VW
Siemens is Audi
Miele is BMW 

I don't sell Jap washing machines

lol


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Sorry guys that I gave a bad formulated input in this thread, I wanted to put my point of view.
The GTR is what it is and the Porsche is what it is too . .point.
To say: they did better then them and this is so much better then this, is a just not fair in both ways.
I think that Porsche does the right stuff for the right price.
Nissan did many great cars for prices that many peoples could afford, something not many other companies in the world could offer their customers . . .

Peace , by the way drove your car in the same colour as yours Cem, last Sunday on the Lux, national car festival . . . amazing piece of art, I can never afford that, but every cent you spend is worth two times now:thumbsup:


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> I run the risk of offending everyone on this forum, but this is my opinion to this question.
> 
> GT2 = X
> 
> ...


The voice of sanity....


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## kaneda (Oct 9, 2004)

Comparing the R34 GT-R to a 996GT2 is like comparing a DBR9 car to Honda F1's RA107. They're both great at what they do but they're entirely different animals built to do entirely different things and built/bought by people on entirely different budgets.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Blow Dog said:


> I run the risk of offending everyone on this forum, but this is my opinion to this question.
> 
> GT2 = X
> 
> ...


:bowdown1: 

Depends what floats your boat guys, I imagine having an R34GTR will make you a hero amongst the local camera phone owning teenagers who wouldn't glance twice at a Porsche. But the Porsche is a much better car in almost everyway, interior, handling, brakes...just from the experiences I've had of driving lesser Porsches than a GT series too. (Fully admit I've yet to drive an R34GTR mind, though I stick to my criticisms of the interior!)

I do wonder if we're comparing apples and pears here though, bit like the Evo vs Skyline debate, both built for different reasons!

T


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I was quite surprised,

The 34 was like driving some big attention magnet down the road, but nowhere near as bad as the Orange, especially now its in "Racespec". I expected a silver 911 to just melt into the background and be ignored by everyone, but actually it gets a surprising amount of looks. Not as many as an electric blue 34 but still more than you might think.



Blow Dog said:


> I run the risk of offending everyone on this forum, but this is my opinion to this question.
> 
> GT2 = X
> 
> ...





Bean said:


> The voice of sanity....



Noooooooo,

The voice of a short bloke who cant make up his mind, then gets frustrated having to wait for a car to be delievered he was effectively driving 3 years ago !!!

:chuckle: opcorn: :flame:


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

One of these days...


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

bladerider said:


> I was quite surprised,
> 
> The 34 was like driving some big attention magnet down the road, but nowhere near as bad as the Orange, especially now its in "Racespec". I expected a silver 911 to just melt into the background and be ignored by everyone, but actually it gets a surprising amount of looks. Not as many as an electric blue 34 but still more than you might think.





tonigmr2 said:


> :bowdown1:
> 
> Depends what floats your boat guys, I imagine having an R34GTR will make you a hero amongst the local camera phone owning teenagers who wouldn't glance twice at a Porsche. T


It's funny how that should be mentioned as I was at our local supermarket on Tuesday and came back out to find a couple of 10/11 years old video-phoning my car the minute they got out of their MPV. The funny thing was they completely ignored the 997 S two cars up! I suppose Porsche like BMW has become too common to raise an eyebrow although I found myself giving a Cayman a good look over the other day at the roadside - looks better in the flesh than pics I think.


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## vincentdds (Jan 25, 2007)

Blow Dog said:


> I run the risk of offending everyone on this forum, but this is my opinion to this question.
> 
> GT2 = X
> 
> ...


Blowdog

Glad to hear from administrator of this forum your concise inputs on this subject.


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## greek r34 (Sep 26, 2003)

*.*

if whe are talking with out a budget gt2, money to falue gtr r34 all the whay baby . gt3 my brother has one like cem . nice car great handeling but not done . great sound . its just not the real deal . thats my opinion and drove both cars gt3 and gtr r34


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

greek r34 said:


> if whe are talking with out a budget gt2, money to falue gtr r34 all the whay baby . gt3 my brother has one like cem . nice car great handeling but not done . great sound . its just not the real deal . thats my opinion and drove both cars gt3 and gtr r34


GT3 not the real deal?


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## greek r34 (Sep 26, 2003)

*.*

cem, i got the gtr 3 2doors from my hose and hes my brow . first problem leeking oilcooler . blow his engine in one month 2 check engine every time temp is changine and thats for a 110k pounds car . by the way you can not even check oil level . hes getting the rs soon as a gift from porsche . theye feel sorry and say will buy the car back with some extra cash he will get the rs


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Blow Dog said:


> One of these days...


   

You love me really !!!


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## stu0x (Jun 30, 2002)

Here's the difference.

If you own a 600bhp Porsche and something goes wrong with it, they'll go to the ends of the earth to sort it for you, like for example flying an engineer from Germany over specially (for Guy's car) or buying the car back off you (for Cem's). The company treats you with respect and courtesy, and nothing is too much trouble.

If you own a 600bhp GTR and something goes wrong with it, you drive it to the middle of nowhere down a half-mile knackered farm track, grounding your splitter all the way, and leave it with a group of guys in a barn. If you're lucky, you'll get a lift to the bus/train station to get home again. You shell out thousands of pounds for work, and when you go and pick your car up there are dirty footprints on the interior, and the closest it gets to a clean is if it's left out in the rain.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

greek r34 said:


> cem, i got the gtr 3 2doors from my hose and hes my brow . first problem leeking oilcooler . blow his engine in one month 2 check engine every time temp is changine and thats for a 110k pounds car . by the way you can not even check oil level . hes getting the rs soon as a gift from porsche . theye feel sorry and say will buy the car back with some extra cash he will get the rs


I don't know what you're talking about - are you referring to the GT3 or the GTR? You say both in the same sentence.

The GT3 is a £75k car, not £110k. And Porsche are giving him a free RS as a gift????


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## vennuth (Aug 2, 2001)

stu0x said:


> Here's the difference.
> 
> If you own a 600bhp Porsche and something goes wrong with it, they'll go to the ends of the earth to sort it for you, like for example flying an engineer from Germany over specially (for Guy's car) or buying the car back off you (for Cem's). The company treats you with respect and courtesy, and nothing is too much trouble.
> 
> If you own a 600bhp GTR and something goes wrong with it, you drive it to the middle of nowhere down a half-mile knackered farm track, grounding your splitter all the way, and leave it with a group of guys in a barn. If you're lucky, you'll get a lift to the bus/train station to get home again. You shell out thousands of pounds for work, and when you go and pick your car up there are dirty footprints on the interior, and the closest it gets to a clean is if it's left out in the rain.


LMFAO.

Cem - I think "greek r34" is trying to say that his brother will be recieving cash from Porsche to purchase his defecive car back which is greater than its original value - and this surplus cash will then be put towards the cost of buying himself an RS.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

stu0x said:


> Here's the difference.
> 
> If you own a 600bhp Porsche and something goes wrong with it, they'll go to the ends of the earth to sort it for you, like for example flying an engineer from Germany over specially (for Guy's car) or buying the car back off you (for Cem's). The company treats you with respect and courtesy, and nothing is too much trouble.
> 
> If you own a 600bhp GTR and something goes wrong with it, you drive it to the middle of nowhere down a half-mile knackered farm track, grounding your splitter all the way, and leave it with a group of guys in a barn. If you're lucky, you'll get a lift to the bus/train station to get home again. You shell out thousands of pounds for work, and when you go and pick your car up there are dirty footprints on the interior, and the closest it gets to a clean is if it's left out in the rain.


possibly the funniest quote of all time on here. Superb.

I have recently moved away from GTR ownership and looking back it seems like big rip off. It’s exactly what I hate about places like R-TEC taking advantage of impressionable young people with their novas and encouraging them to spend their money on a daft set of accessories that serve only to keep the Ripp family driving round in expensive cars. It’s no different. Only the tuners do well out of this tuning malarky. 

Is my new car as fast as a GTR? No, does it handle as well? No... however, it is still a beautiful car to drive and it feels well made and solid. If it goes wrong, I get to deal with a legitimate commercial organisation. These organisations that "have" to care about customer service and loyalty, the fact that it is German is merely a bonus in my book.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

This thread is still going on . . .!!!

Well again and again you guys doing the same useless statments.
How many time I have to say that the GTR is made in JAPAN and for JAPAN only! It fits the roads and cities of that country perfect!
If you want to tune a grey import car with import tuning parts in your garage on the other side of the globe , that's fine for you, but don't cry if there is no service for you, to help you out from your own mess.
That so great service from Porsche is just a typical prove how our great european buisness works.

In Japan you get the same service and more when you buy a 10000$ Swift, most garages are offering to do every thing for you that comes with the ownership of a car. BEST CUSTOMER SERVICE on earth , I would say.

So buying a car for 100k , it should be just normal that such a service should be included in the ownership!

Porsche are damn nice cars, but you have to pay for them!------point

And by the way the GTR-garages in Japan, wich aren't tuning garages with own produced tuning kits ( like R1 by Nismo at Nismo or Genesis by Tomei at Tomei-garage), wich are just putting their own knowledge in your car . . . . are giving you a customer service ,you wouldn't get anywhere in Europe, even for money.

The service from german tuners is a big crap, as long as you pay your a$$ off , they will do something for you . . .but don't complain to your local Audi garage because your Abt RS4 blowed up in the Alpes . .they give a shit about your situation at that moment.

I speak perfect german and lived my entire life next to german border and know exactly what spirit the makers have over there.
Forget your simplistic view about german great engineering, if you would pay the italian makers the same bucks, they would do every thing for you too.

At the end you need MONEY first to get a bit of service, but this is something most people can simply not do.


POINT.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Its very sweet that you keep on banging the drum of love,

But eventually you will realise that money isnt everything, and that a car is more than simply about the place it was made, for how much, and whether you like the people who made it or not. The thread asks which is better between the two - which I feel is the Porsche - not which is better value for money (which is still debatable once you have tuned your skyline to keep up with the GT2). And I still feel that comparing these two very nice cars is like wondering which is best - chalk or cheese !!!

I like the way you go on about tuners when we have already pointed out the Ruf flew over an engineer to sort out Guys issues - I cant quite imagine XXinsert tuner hereXX doing the same for a gtr owner with a bit of a rattle from their HKS 2.8kit !!!

J.


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## mana_r32 (Jun 24, 2006)

if it was me i will just stay with gtr , Porsche is one of the most trusted names in the world of making sports cars , which gives them more proirty to be owned by a person who loves sport driving , for example , if u go to a typical guy and u ask him , what car u will get if u got money , i give u warrante that he is going to say either Porsche or Ferrari since these cars is now well know as a sports car , alot of people buy them just as a name and just for daliy driving , but u can't have a toyota GT-one for a daliy driving " if they were for sale " , so in this case , Porsche will win , but it dosen't mean that it is the fastest car , becuse there is even faster in truck racing


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Bladerider I fully agree with your statement, but if you read the comments made in this thread you will see that they not only keep it on the question which is the better car-
That is all I am answering to.

For the service I am talking about :, in europe you do buisness and provide service if someone pays for it. In Japan you provide every thing you have, even if it doesn't pay off at first! (not want to generalize too much here, as not every company in Japan is an angel at all).

I am speaking of experience, my family in Japan worked hard to get what they have today, many sacrifices, most european people wouldn't do just for the buisness. My family own a car garage over the last 20 years and every car sold brings a huge amount of commitment with it. To be competitive against big garages on that market you need to be availble for your customers 24H,7day7. . . . which is a pain, as the boss or one of the tree sellers have to go out to meet the customers.
Car Produce Act for exemple will not tune your GTR or sell you one and then the relation ends between the buyer and seller! He will need to be there for the customers, all the time, even if the car has a small oil problem at midnight on a free day.

So basicly what I say, is that you run a high power GTR in Japan very easy and for a reasonable price. So the stand alone situation, you have in europe with your messed up car, is not possible in Japan if you choise a nice garage-partner.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Im quite happy with my messed up GTR,I diden't buy it with how it was going to serviced in mind .If I have to travel for a few hours to get it serviced once a year big deal .As for the GTR being only good for Japans roads ,I dont think so ,Sports cars of any sort are not meant for driving down Farmers tracks and cobbled back lanes .The GTR is only a car like many others it is no fabled God .


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

GTRLUX, your grammar and spelling are appalling. Almost impossible to understand the points you are trying to make.


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## stu0x (Jun 30, 2002)

gtrlux said:


> blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah


Who are you trying to convince?

It's really okay for us all not to like the same thing you know? In fact, it's good.

I'm happy for you that you preach at the church of Nismo, but really, you're not going to convert everybody. Get over it.

"point".


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

stu0x said:


> Here's the difference.
> 
> If you own a 600bhp Porsche and something goes wrong with it, they'll go to the ends of the earth to sort it for you, like for example flying an engineer from Germany over specially (for Guy's car) or buying the car back off you (for Cem's). The company treats you with respect and courtesy, and nothing is too much trouble.
> 
> If you own a 600bhp GTR and something goes wrong with it, you drive it to the middle of nowhere down a half-mile knackered farm track, grounding your splitter all the way, and leave it with a group of guys in a barn. If you're lucky, you'll get a lift to the bus/train station to get home again. You shell out thousands of pounds for work, and when you go and pick your car up there are dirty footprints on the interior, and the closest it gets to a clean is if it's left out in the rain.


That pretty much sums up GTR ownership when you look back on it.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

stu0x said:


> Who are you trying to convince?
> 
> It's really okay for us all not to like the same thing you know? In fact, it's good.
> 
> ...


Nice one, I am with you on this. I don't really care how "wonderful" and "incredible" the service is over in Japan. The fact is that most of us are resident in the UK and the service from tuners is shite. There is one exception to the rule... speak to TweenieRob.

I have recently moved off GT-Rs and I will tell you something. The refinement of my new car, the way it "feels" and the way it handles is something that the GTR could only dream of. I dont feel like I need to tune it, it is was it is and is engineered to be what it is. 

Almost every car is a bad investment in money terms. A car + tuning is just a super fast way to tire out the mechanicals quicker, line the pockets of the tuner and depreciate your car. A candle that burns twice as bright, lasts half as long.

A lot of people have made a lot of money out of GTR tuning. Wake up and realise this Lux


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Durzel said:


> That pretty much sums up GTR ownership when you look back on it.



Yes it does, Lux please will you stop perpatrating this myth that the tuners really have our best interests at heart. Over in the UK it is bollox.

You have a GTR in the UK, breakdown somewhere and just see how helpful a "tuner" will be....

colour of your money first my son.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

GTRSTILL said:


> GTRLUX, your grammar and spelling are appalling. Almost impossible to understand the points you are trying to make.


I think it's OK to post as a foreigner on a UK -Forum, if you want it UK-citizen only, then PM the web-master.
How many languages can you speak or write, not many probably, like most one here.

So what is making you guys so uppset? If you could speak perfect german or japanese you would see car-ownership with a very different view maybe.
I feel icecold about the german car-spirit and -industry, I just like the japanese!
At least I understand the culture of both countries very well, so I can compare . . .
What this thread says is about this: The GTR is a nice try, but we so great western engineers with Porsche and co are better, or you can say; Tamura-san is an idiot!

So you get what Tamura-san and co are doing or you don't get it , it's as simple as that.


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## Luki (Jan 3, 2007)

Durzel said:


> If you own a 600bhp Porsche and something goes wrong with it, they'll go to the ends of the earth to sort it for you, like for example flying an engineer from Germany over specially (for Guy's car) or buying the car back off you (for Cem's). The company treats you with respect and courtesy, and nothing is too much trouble.


Sorry, but from where do you have this information?? If you have a tuned Porsche, turbo, Carrera or GT2 and somebody from Porsche comes to sort it for you, and they see the car has a tuned engine, they will wish you a nice day and will go back! Even if you have a 993turbo (as i had) or a Carrera, or GT2, that has no warranty any more, they will not come for you! Maybe if it is a Carrera GT or a GT1, this is a different story. Otherwise forget it with this service all around the world for every Porsche. 

Don't wanna say Porsche sucks, i love these cars, and i would always buy a 993turbo again...(i need 4 seats)


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Luki said:


> Sorry, but from where do you have this information?? If you have a tuned Porsche, turbo, Carrera or GT2 and somebody from Porsche comes to sort it for you, and they see the car has a tuned engine, they will wish you a nice day and will go back! Even if you have a 993turbo (as i had) or a Carrera, or GT2, that has no warranty any more, they will not come for you! Maybe if it is a Carrera GT or a GT1, this is a different story. Otherwise forget it with this service all around the world for every Porsche.
> 
> Don't wanna say Porsche sucks, i love these cars, and i would always buy a 993turbo again...(i need 4 seats)


Quite simple answer to that Luki,

A friend of ours - Guy - who has already posted on this thread owns a 996 GT2 tuned by Ruf - who flew an engineer over to the UK to sort out some problems he was having. They also took his car in when he had organised a holiday in the area, tuned it with a new engine and ancilliaries to 600+bhp and gave the car back to him a few days later, he collected it on the return leg of the holdiay and he went home in it.

I dont think UK Tuners are cr4p, plenty here can tell of experiences when Mark/Tony/Rod/Ron/Gary/Whoever have been out to rescue them in thier time of need, its just that in comparison I think that the Ruf experience Guy has told us of (after all, how many people can afford to tune their Porsche to this level) is in another league. I also dont think people should belittle GTRLux for his english, its not his first language so Im sure there are very few of us here who could do so well in greek, or russian, or italian so perhaps thats a bit of a pathetic point to argue !!

Cem, the owner of this website also had problems with his GT3RS which ended up with Porsche giving him what he wanted at the time to sort out any issues, I know of others who have had to go back to Porsche who have just sorted the car without too much flapping, something that Im sure Middlehursts (the only "official" UK Nissan Skyline dealer) would never have done !!! Certainly the wonders of the skyline and its service backup in Japan sound wonderful, but this is rather academic when talking about the UK or any other country other than Japan, so hence my preference for the german car, purely because it is a Global brand recognised for quality, service and keeping customers happy.

Still doesnt really answer "which car is better" which is , as I have said before, an impossible comparison in my opinion.

J.


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Expecting decent service from an authorised dealer from whom you have just bought a new, standard, warrantied car is very different from expecting similar from someone who has changed the suspension on a ten-year old one.

Ruf is the only tuner I can think of who would ever approach that level of commitment - what would happen when your DMS'd (or similar) Turbo blew up I wonder?

Phil


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

It wasn’t a poke at his poor use of the English language, just that his appalling grammar and spelling made the points he is trying to make not very easy to understand. Therefore open to misinterpretation.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

It's not so much a question of service really imo, it's more about perception imo.

I rate plenty of the UK tuners, but there is a part of me that never really stomached the whole process of having to "drive it to the middle of nowhere down a half-mile knackered farm track, grounding your splitter all the way, and leave it with a group of guys in a barn". It just didn't seem like an experience commensurate with the value of the car. Maybe if you had one of the cheaper and/or older Skylines it would be less of an issue.

I don't necessarily expect to be treated like royalty, but it is somewhat strange owning a car which is worth £35k+ and driving it to what is ostensibly a silo on a farm, not to mention picking it up and seeing it being washed with nothing more than a hose and having muddy footprints on the _dash_ and mats. It doesn't inspire confidence.

It's debatable whether or not Nissan would provide a service similar to Porsche, but ultimately it's academic because with the exception of Middlehurst most of the main dealers either don't want to touch it (aren't trained - who can blame them) or don't have the first clue how to source parts.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

gtrlux said:


> I think it's OK to post as a foreigner on a UK -Forum, if you want it UK-citizen only, then PM the web-master.
> How many languages can you speak or write, not many probably, like most one here.


Stop being so sensitive, no one mentioned anything about not letting foreigners post to this website. I don't profess to be the "be all and end all" of English literature Just that reading your responses is very hard due to the appalling grammar and spelling. It is unfortunate, but none the less true. 

You may be making valid statements or points I agree with, it’s just your command of English is not letting me see them.

I would have thought you had a tougher shell by now Lux


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Durzel said:


> I rate plenty of the UK tuners, but there is a part of me that never really stomached the whole process of having to "drive it to the middle of nowhere down a half-mile knackered farm track, grounding your splitter all the way, and leave it with a group of guys in a barn". It just didn't seem like an experience commensurate with the value of the car. Maybe if you had one of the cheaper and/or older Skylines it would be less of an issue.
> 
> I don't necessarily expect to be treated like royalty, but it is somewhat strange owning a car which is worth £35k+ and driving it to what is ostensibly a silo on a farm, not to mention picking it up and seeing it being washed with nothing more than a hose and having muddy footprints on the _dash_ and mats. It doesn't inspire confidence.
> 
> It's debatable whether or not Nissan would provide a service similar to Porsche, but ultimately it's academic because with the exception of Middlehurst most of the main dealers either don't want to touch it (aren't trained - who can blame them) or don't have the first clue how to source parts.


Poor old Mark PMSL


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## 763paf (Sep 18, 2004)

FAO GTRSTILL, not all people on here are English (thank God btw) so you will have to excuse us foreigners for making spelling and grammer mistakes.

I have no real input on the thread title, but would just like to add my opinion..

Why do people blame the tuners for ripping them off.. Ill take my car down the farm track and leave it with the "farmers" everytime... Why.. Because i dont know anything about a car engine and i take my car to the best tuner (IMO) and people who have worked on skylines longer than i have breathed oxygen

If they charge a rate that you arent happy with, take it to someone else or work on it yourself. Buy the parts yourself from Japan.. YOU bought a JAPANESE car, live with, stop whining...

I have owned various BMW M3's and i stopped taking it to the BMW garage as there is some pimple filled kid working on my £50000 car fresh out of mechanic school messing it up. Same with my Range rover... I would rather take it to specialist.

If you are getting a divorce and your wife is going to take you to the cleaners, do you want the lawyer that will get you the house and the cars that cost £50 p.h or the laywer the court appoints at probably a bargain £10 p h ???

Oh and i vote for the porsche even though i own a GTR


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

GTRSTILL said:


> I would have thought you had a tougher shell by now Lux


I still have that image about you british guys looking like rugby blokes . . .intimidating  
No problem mate, doing a discussion while writing down your text is difficult, as nobody gets your mood trough your written text. 

Anyway peace:thumbsup:


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## stu0x (Jun 30, 2002)

763paf said:


> If you are getting a divorce and your wife is going to take you to the cleaners, do you want the lawyer that will get you the house and the cars that cost £50 p.h or the laywer the court appoints at probably a bargain £10 p h ???


A more accurate comparison would be - would you go to the guy that charges £200 an hour (£50? I dunno which low-rent shysters you've been talking to  ) and operates out of a nice corporate office where you get a mug of freshly roasted, some nice buns, etc... or the guy that charges £200 an hour and operates out of a condemned crackhouse. And kicks you in the balls on the way out.



gtrlux said:


> I feel icecold about the german car-spirit and -industry, I just like the japanese!
> 
> At least I understand the culture of both countries very well, so I can compare . . .


And what bearing does that have on car ownership in _the UK_, exactly?

You've totally missed the point. Which was that no-one would suggest that either a GT2 or a GTR are shit cars. On the contrary, they are both exceptionally accomplished. Which you prefer is likely to be down to personal choice. But when you're dropping that sort of cash on a motor, the experience of owning them plays a *big* part, not just the technical abilities of the car itself. And in that, they simply do not compare.

There is no way that I'd _expect_ a small group of independent tuners to have the financial or logistical ability to provide the same level of support that a multinational corporation can - but that is little comfort when you break down, have to get your car towed 200-odd miles, drop several grand on the repairs, and get it back dirty because apparently dust-sheets worth about 50p were too much bother. *That* is a bigger deal to me than .1 to 60 or a few seconds on a Tsukuba lap time. It's the little things that make a big difference.


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

763paf said:


> I have owned various BMW M3's and i stopped taking it to the BMW garage as there is some pimple filled kid working on my £50000 car fresh out of mechanic school messing it up. Same with my Range rover... I would rather take it to specialist.


Warranty muggle

It’s the same reason why large organisations pick other large organisation to do work for them. It’s not about the individuals, but the organisation that commercially backs them up.

Silly fella


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

stu0x said:


> There is no way that I'd _expect_ a small group of independent tuners to have the financial or logistical ability to provide the same level of support that a multinational corporation can - but that is little comfort when you break down, have to get your car towed 200-odd miles, drop several grand on the repairs, and get it back dirty because apparently dust-sheets worth about 50p were too much bother. *That* is a bigger deal to me than .1 to 60 or a few seconds on a Tsukuba lap time. It's the little things that make a big difference.


The crux of the matter!! I'm the same, don't expect my nose wiped or people to beg to me bowdown1: though that'd be nice, we'll save that for when I accomplish world domination ) but I DO want care and courtesy, not to be ripped off and my car to be cared about. I don't mind it looking like a condemned crackhouse if that is given. Going from the posts above, it is not everybody's experience, and given the price we pay for tuning that IS a shame.

And also another factor to consider when spending £30K plus!
T


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

I suppose the irony of it is that for all the special treatment you supposedly receive from an OPC or similar, 99% of the cars they "sell" are on the never-never, so it's partly the finance company's bung that's paying for it ...

Phil


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## CSL (Jan 18, 2007)

Tuners = a bunch of spanner wielding monkeys, they rip you off through their ignorance. Their work rates may be lower but they take 5 times longer. The shit you have to put up with is terrible.

If you are thinking of modifying your GTR save your money, a well modified GTR costs more than a 996 GT3 MK1. Do not even think a GTR could compete with a GT3 (let alone a GT2) for if you do then you are a fool.

GTR owners should enjoy your cars and be proud of what you`ve got.


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## Luki (Jan 3, 2007)

CSL said:


> If you are thinking of modifying your GTR save your money, c. Do not even think a GTR could compete with a GT3 (let alone a GT2) for if you do then you are a fool.


I am one of them that could not drive the GT-R without tuning/modifying and making it better. What does "do not even think a modified GTR could compete with a GT3" mean? Modifying what? Everything, or just the ECU, or only the brakes, or what? don't overrate a GT3 996! on a track it's fine, but absolutely not easy to drive!


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## BBD (May 30, 2002)

Luki its the guys firts post haha think he knows more about Skylines and Porsche than the Germans and Japanese put together.


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## Luki (Jan 3, 2007)

BBD said:


> Luki its the guys firts post haha think he knows more about Skylines and Porsche than the Germans and Japanese put together.


I don't know a lot about the Skyline, that's true, only in theory and what i can see of other people driving it. I only drove it once, and i was quiet impressed by this R34 GTR with about 400hp...but i do know a lot about Porsche, because i sold them and had a 993turbo of my own with 520hp and 720Nm torque...


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## Luki (Jan 3, 2007)

BBD said:


> Luki its the guys firts post haha think he knows more about Skylines and Porsche than the Germans and Japanese put together.


Additional: Yes, but that does not mean he doesn't know nothing...but with this post it is more the case, that he doesn't know a lot about GT3 and about the GTR.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

I can assure you he knows more about GT3's and GTR's than anyone else on this forum.


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

CSL said:


> Do not even think a GTR could compete with a GT3 (let alone a GT2) for if you do then you are a fool.


Apples and oranges.

Phil


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> I can assure you he knows more about GT3's and GTR's than anyone else on this forum.


That's a pretty amazing statement, given the experience of some people on here (including yourself)
You don't feel that there should be an 'almost' in there somewhere ?


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

service can be relative, and aftermarket garages can be on either extreme.

My first breakdown saw my GT-R sitting in a dirt parking lot in the middle of fooking nowhere north of Seoul, outside of a rusty old warehouse, dimly lit, which served as a workshop. For four months it sat in the baking summer sun, waiting for an ancient longblock worth $1000 to be mated up with old stock turbos. Cost for labor: 2,400,000KRW (about $2400US). I had to source all of my own parts (the dealer kicked in the longblock, which pretty much assures that it was the cheapest possible thing he could find that would turn over and run). More or less the "down the muddy rutted road to a dilapidated garage" experience cited here. A lot of services were left out, like setting the fuel pressure (turned out to be FOUR BAR at vacuum!), and a lot of the nitpicky details I wanted done, weren't done. And certain things were left out, like a engine mount nut (leaving the engine tied in by a single nut!), two out of four crossmember bushings, and completely misrouted vacuum lines for the boost controller. I had to pay $100 for him to sort that one out.

This time around, I went with the "expensive shop". I had avoided them at first as their parts prices are outrageously marked up ($600 for an Apexi pressure gauge??). Again, I sourced all my own parts, but my car sat comfortable alone indoors for six weeks on its own lift, and that mostly due to Greenline sitting on essential parts they had in stock, but refusing to ship them until some sundry items arrived so that they could be shipped together. It basically took them a week to build the car. 
















I wanted them to polish my turbo pipes. Someone hopped up, went over to the polisher, and did it on the spot. There were 2-3 guys on my car at any given moment. I hung around, walking in and about them as they worked (don't know how it is in England but in the US they paint yellow lines on the floor, past which customers under no circumstances may venture). I turned wrenches on some parts, as I wanted to be part of the process. Most of all, little things get fixed for free now - I didn't pay to get my bushings installed yesterday. When I wanted my plugs gapped to 0.6mm, they did it right then and there. The next day when I wanted them back to 0.8mm, someone was grabbing a socket wrench as I spoke. Most of all - seeing as the fuel breather lines were messed up (and the cause of my running problems), the mapping I paid for out of my own pocket is at best suspect, at worst, absolutely worthless. The shop is working out a deal with me, I'll probably get compensation in Apexi parts (they're a dealer, and I need an uprated radiator come summertime) and I doubt I'll be paying labor on anything minor for quite some time. Plus I can call the head mechanic literally 24/7, and if I break down, they'll come and tow me to their shop. Hell, they did that when I broke down and before I decided to go with them for my engine rebuild. All that for 3,100,000KRW (about $3100US), but that includes laser alignment, dyno time, an Apexi fuel pump (for which they did charge me 580,000KRW, the bastards), all miscellaneous parts needed, except for these mysterious "brake hose nipples" which they insist are required to install my Nismo brake line kit, and if anything goes wrong that can be traced directly to them, they'll fix it for free. They're not perfect, and they did make a couple of glaring errors, but I feel I've got my money's worth. After all, they didn't cut and paste in a cheap used R32 block, they completely bored out and rebuilt my engine down to the bearings. When I roll in, someone always brings me coffee. Who says the aftermarket can't provide good service?

Porsche doesn't necessarily fly out mechanics for everyone - neither the owner of the Carrera GT nor the 959 has gotten terribly much help from Stuttgart with their woes - which is why they were getting serviced where I was.


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## vincentdds (Jan 25, 2007)

kismetcapitan said:


> service can be relative, and aftermarket garages can be on either extreme.
> 
> My first breakdown saw my GT-R sitting in a dirt parking lot in the middle of fooking nowhere north of Seoul, outside of a rusty old warehouse, dimly lit, which served as a workshop. For four months it sat in the baking summer sun, waiting for an ancient longblock worth $1000 to be mated up with old stock turbos. Cost for labor: 2,400,000KRW (about $2400US). I had to source all of my own parts (the dealer kicked in the longblock, which pretty much assures that it was the cheapest possible thing he could find that would turn over and run). More or less the "down the muddy rutted road to a dilapidated garage" experience cited here. A lot of services were left out, like setting the fuel pressure (turned out to be FOUR BAR at vacuum!), and a lot of the nitpicky details I wanted done, weren't done. And certain things were left out, like a engine mount nut (leaving the engine tied in by a single nut!), two out of four crossmember bushings, and completely misrouted vacuum lines for the boost controller. I had to pay $100 for him to sort that one out.
> 
> ...


Sounds like my kind of shop. Thanks for sharing.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Bean said:


> That's a pretty amazing statement, given the experience of some people on here (including yourself)
> You don't feel that there should be an 'almost' in there somewhere ?


Perhaps badly worded - I'll rephrase:

He has more _experience _of GTR's and GT3's than anyone else on this forum.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

I've posted about the cars (R34 and GT2), having owned both, so won't add any more comments about the cars. I also read StuOx's comments and thought they were possibly the most hilarious and also true comment I had ever read about some of the problems people have incurred in their GTR ownership experience.

GTRLUX's rose-tinted spectacles must be great, I'd love a pair please, but to be honest the experience in Japan might be good, but is just not relevent, as we all live in the UK and cannot pop into Top Secret or Nismo unlike some lucky owners on here. I also find the comments about Japanese spirit just so funny, since all I see is a nation of car manufacturers who simply have given up trying to make sportscars. Lets remind ourselves of the most recent Jap developments in supercars or sportscars shall we:

Toyota - Supra = production ended in 2002 (5 years ago, no cars since)
Nissan - R34 GTR = production ended in 2002 (5 years ago, no cars since)
Honda - NSX = production limped on for 15 years until 2005, at which point it was just old and outdated, no cars since

So basically the Jap Sportscar industry simply gave up in it's entirety 5 years ago. Can you imagine Porsche or Ferrari or Lambo or Mercedes or BMW or Corvette simply not even bothering to make a sportscar for 5 years!!!!! Wow that Japanese spirit is truly amazing (when it's not hibernating for half a decade  )

Now as for the UK GTR tuners, I'm going to say something that might surprise many of you. I had truly dreadful and also unlucky experiences at times and some of the behaviours were shocking at times, but I think you must also recognise that not all of the fault lies at their hands, it also lies with the owners and the GTR scene. 

1. There are many owners who want to get big bhp at little expense and who have false expectations about the reliability that results in such a process. I call this Gran Tourismo syndrome.

2. The owners often start with shitbag cars imported with god knows what mess of ill-fitted parts and then want the car improved from that level, so no two cars are ever the same. If you go for a German tuner on a Porsche they will have 1-3 packages and that is all they sell and they will not usually work on your car if it is fitted with some other peoples parts. That way they can be certain of what works, because there is no guesswork.

3. Many GTR owners have made ill-judged financial decisions in buying the car of their dreams without fully understanding the commitment in terms of costs for maintenance and upgrades, espcially on upgraded cars. An R33 or R34 costs the same as a 911 when new, so why be surprised when it's as expensive to run.

4. You simply cannot expect the quality of facilities from a back-street garage that only works on 2nd-hand cars and who has no car sales business. A Porsche OPC can afford a £3m glass and steel showroom and several receptionists and nice coffee because it sells hundreds or thousands of new and 2nd hand cars a year, each generating huge revenue, as well as having a captive no-hassle, basic service business with a huge throughput of basic consistent jobs.

5. The tuners are not ripping people off, to the contrary, they barely scrape a living it seems. Has anyone seen any of the well-known faces from the GTR tuning world driving round in swish cars, living in country mansions - I know thats not the case. In the main they are actually very hard workers, stuck with a bad business model in a declining business (all the cars are getting cheaper and the customers are even less willing to spend what is required).

Thats my 2p for today.

Guy


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

I agree with that post above ,makes more sense than most.I have my car serviced once a year and although not that cheap to have done it is reliable and only about 420bhp . You run an expensive high powerd car youre not going to get Fiesta 1.1 service charges .What do Ferrari charge ?


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Guy said:


> GTRLUX's rose-tinted spectacles must be great, I'd love a pair please, but to be honest the experience in Japan might be good, but is just not relevent, as we all live in the UK and cannot pop into Top Secret or Nismo unlike some lucky owners on here. I also find the comments about Japanese spirit just so funny, since all I see is a nation of car manufacturers who simply have given up trying to make sportscars. Lets remind ourselves of the most recent Jap developments in supercars or sportscars shall we:
> 
> Toyota - Supra = production ended in 2002 (5 years ago, no cars since)
> Nissan - R34 GTR = production ended in 2002 (5 years ago, no cars since)
> ...


Look, again totaly missed the point about what I said and you post stuff that is indeed irrelevant.
You compare a Porsche that is officially availble in the UK, that is 3 times more expensive then a GTR, which can only be grey imported with no warranty, zero back up from one of the biggest tuning aftermarkets ex . . . .
So I can't get it why some people see thoses problems of the GTRs in other countries then japan, as a bad quality that can be compared to the great service and back up of a domestic premium car?????
That's all I said.

Of course any Porsche is better on this matter then any japanese grey import, tuned or not tuned. But if Porsche wouldn't import and officially sell the GT3s in Japan for exemple and they would have been limited to 280HP do to a domestic restriction, you would have the same problems in Japan too.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

Here's an other spam, forgive the size, but somethings can't be explained in 2 cent comments made of 10 words:

For the japanese spirit it's like this:
Your opinion against the entire japanese car industry？ Of course they not have new performance cars, I regret it too, but that doesn't change anything to the fact that in Japan since more then 35 years you can afford performance cars for a reasonable budget, so more people could enjoy automobile sport, then in any other countries.
And therefore I love the japanese performance cars, because they are not made to be the fastest, best handling, most premium cars in the world, . . . . . . .
but to allow as many peoples as possible in Japan to own cars that are as practicle as avarge western cars in every day, but have a build quality and performance, against which the western cars can dig a big grave and jump inside. . . . as they can only top that with horrible expensive cars that any way the majority can never afford.

That is a spirit the western people don't get, as the japanese not think in Black and White or Good or Bad. 

The NSX has a trunk and 280HP because the japanese customer needed this more then putting no trunk, 200kg less and and a 500HP V8!
The GTR has 4 seats, a street suspension, small breaks ex . . . because it should be either something like a standard M3, but with the racing technology that interests all japanese customers inside, so that it is very better then the M3, for the same price.

The japanese think about customers and not only about rich customers. What makes me laugh is, that in europe you have a handfull of performance cars you can afford and the rest will just be a wet dream of most people.
Instead of following this idiotic evolution for production cars, that are ment for normal customers, the japanese produced cars with super technology, but kept it on a level, so that most japanese customers could afford them and enjoy them.

The main opinion here is : I keep my GTR standard and enjoy the car as it is (nobody says anything), but from the moment on someone wants to tune it, it have to be compared immediately to a 100k western supercar!
Well thats not the japanese spirit!
The japanese spirit is　the following:
Agreeing that an excess of power, makes cars too dangerous and misses the goal of selling a fun car that has the technology of racing and that can give that funfactor and discovery of legal fun to any customers, not only for the homemade professional race drivers that can handle 1000HP on the country street in the wet! . .therefore the 280HP gentleman agreement.

So I not see why we compare so different car cultures against each other, every argument given here is only from your western point of view and has nothing to do with japanese car culture reality.

The excessive aftermarket in Japan proves that modest and balanced spirit. The manufacturer build quality cars that have huge potentials, but are drivable and affordable for any customer, the aftermarket is there so that the owners have the choice to keep reasonable for the needs of every day life or to take the next step for unreasonable performance . . . . and in japanese spirit that means: don't do something you can assume!

Something you can't say about the targeted supercar customers in the west, few drive them on the track (the only place they belong and should exist). . . many just need a confirmation of their status, or need to show off as they not get much attention as individual . . . 

Money is the main issue, as most people not have money and the japanese produced the best cars for the middle class citizen in the world, in matters of build quality, luxury and performance.


Peace


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

gtrlux said:


> . . . . . . . and in japanese spirit that means: don't do something you can assume!
> 
> ....................


 . . sorry i ment :
Don't do something you CAN'T assume . . 


By the way Stuox, blade and Guy, don't jump one me as I have no intention to post in a bad manner against every thing you say . . .


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## NickM (Oct 25, 2003)

Guy said:


> Now as for the UK GTR tuners, I'm going to say something that might surprise many of you. I had truly dreadful and also unlucky experiences at times and some of the behaviours were shocking at times, but I think you must also recognise that not all of the fault lies at their hands, it also lies with the owners and the GTR scene.
> 
> 1. There are many owners who want to get big bhp at little expense and who have false expectations about the reliability that results in such a process. I call this Gran Tourismo syndrome.
> 
> ...



Good post.

I owned a Supra before I bought my GTR and have noticed over the years the attitude of some new owners as they decline in value. Increasingly the emphasis is on doing stuff cheap, rather than doing things properly.

Unfortunately there's also some very unscrupulous tuners out there that are only to happy to take money from naive owners, instead of giving honest advice.

It can be tricky finding someone you trust in the UK Japanese tuning market.


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## Fred (Oct 11, 2001)

stealth said:


> You run an expensive high powerd car youre not going to get Fiesta 1.1 service charges .What do Ferrari charge ?


A ****ing fortune! Having said that they have been way cheaper to run than my tuned Skyline was.


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> Perhaps badly worded - I'll rephrase:
> 
> He has more _experience _of GTR's and GT3's than anyone else on this forum.


Sounds like he could be a real RR of a chap


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## 763paf (Sep 18, 2004)

Guy said:


> 4. You simply cannot expect the quality of facilities from a back-street garage that only works on 2nd-hand cars and who has no car sales business. A Porsche OPC can afford a £3m glass and steel showroom and several receptionists and nice coffee because it sells hundreds or thousands of new and 2nd hand cars a year, each generating huge revenue, as well as having a captive no-hassle, basic service business with a huge throughput of basic consistent jobs.
> 
> 5. The tuners are not ripping people off, to the contrary, they barely scrape a living it seems. Has anyone seen any of the well-known faces from the GTR tuning world driving round in swish cars, living in country mansions - I know thats not the case. In the main they are actually very hard workers, stuck with a bad business model in a declining business (all the cars are getting cheaper and the customers are even less willing to spend what is required).
> 
> ...


You have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Thanks for saying what i was thinking in perfect english...


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

gtrlux said:


> Here's an other spam, forgive the size, but somethings can't be explained in 2 cent comments made of 10 words:
> 
> For the japanese spirit it's like this:
> Your opinion against the entire japanese car industry？ Of course they not have new performance cars, I regret it too, but that doesn't change anything to the fact that in Japan since more then 35 years you can afford performance cars for a reasonable budget, so more people could enjoy automobile sport, then in any other countries.
> ...


There is no 280bhp limit now and the 34 gtr came out standard a bit more than that anyway.you say super cars should only exist on the track,well that is the most stupid sentance I have read yet,Im sure if you won the lottery you would be driving around in a Lambo or something along those lines.seems to me you like everything about the GTR apart from them being in the UK or anywhere else apart from Japan.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

stealth said:


> There is no 280bhp limit now and the 34 gtr came out standard a bit more than that anyway.you say super cars should only exist on the track,well that is the most stupid sentance I have read yet,Im sure if you won the lottery you would be driving around in a Lambo or something along those lines.seems to me you like everything about the GTR apart from them being in the UK or anywhere else apart from Japan.


Why is it, that when I post a different point of view from you guys, you immediately think somebody wants to hurt you and thinks you are idiots???

To answer your question: Not only 99% of japanese sports cars, that had the power, were limited to 280HP, but also limited to 180kph. So GTRs having 40 HP more is not relevant at all.
I do not slaughter the GTR community outside Japan, but some people don't get a damn about they actually own. Ask the japanese GTR owners about , if they would buy a Lambo, if they win in the Lotto? Most probably give a damn about a Lambo, as in Japan a lambo has no status. Only for new rich numpties . . . 
When I drive a car in japan, I feel that nobody gives a damn about what you have. i get more response from young people if I drive my pimped family wan, then my friends Modena with exhaust-power and black rims.

many here on the forum think that,if they have the money to own their Lambo or Ferrari they will get something that lifts them up somewhere above the rest of the society, looks to me like a struggling of getting over psychological problems, like frustration not having money and the feeling to want more and more, in order to stand out of the crowd . . . .

And the reason why the japanese have thoses restrictions , is because when you drive over there you will see that most people drive so damn reasonable and slow, that very quick you see that your entire supercar fantasy is so un-compatible with that society. And when you leave your western ego at home and get in the taste of the japanese courtesy and decency you will see that an NSX and GTR are probably every thing you will ever need in your japanese life, to live in a society of courtesy.

That's why Nissan build the GTR and not a flat, 1m20, 500HP, V8, Bi-Turbo, Attesea+Hicas, 200k, super car!


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I'll be sure to remind my mum who lost two uncles in the war at the hands of the Japanese exactly how courteous and wonderful they are !!!

I will also remind myself how the Japanese respect the 180kmh limit and the GTR/Supra/NSX gangs dont actually run the Wangan at 300kmh+

I will furthermore remind myself how left hookers are not really deemed more "prestigious" in Japan, and that this is in a society possibly more than any other built on heirarchy and who has more has a louder voice to tell those with less all about it.

I would also just point out that the UK is the only OTHER country in the world where the Skyline GTR was sold OFFICIALLY by Nissan, warranted by them, serviced by them, and it cost £54,000 which at the time was the same cost as an NSX, and also the same as a porsche 911, albeit not a GT3 or Turbo model. So hardly any of your arguments hold water. All you keep harping on about is your rose tinted view of your experiences in Japan itself and some weird semi religious fervour for all things not western.

If the Japs could sell a supercar they would build one - all they are interested in is the bottom line, like most others EXCEPT perhaps the same zany Italian and others who give us the likes of Pagani, Lamborghini, Koenigsegg etc etc. The japs build - on the whole - mundane cars to be sold in zillions worldwide, to a lowish price with medium detailing and finish to an ever increasing audience of people frustrated by the even worse offerings of the American big 3. Not quite the reality you would have us believe with these car ninjas making the best they can on a budget because they believe thats the best solution to the problem !!!

Now give it a rest - you've gone way past tollerably boring into zealousy annoying.

J.


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*Bladey*

And I will remind myself of your views , when as a 50K: plus porsche owner, you come round my"Barn down a farm track" and blag some sort of cheap deal for the drift car that quote " I really cant afford to run" LOL

Still thinking , I could say so much!!!

Tony :blahblah: :blahblah: :blahblah:


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

bladerider said:


> I would also just point out that the UK is the only OTHER country in the world where the Skyline GTR was sold OFFICIALLY by Nissan


And Australia.



bladerider said:


> all they are interested in is the bottom line


Not with the GT-R (R32 at least) - that was built as a showcase for the technology and to win races, not to make money. 

Otherwise - does anyone really care? I have a GT-R, I quite like it. Next time I'll probably buy a 911, and I'll probably quite like that too. Big deal.

Phil


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

LOL

Big fella,

I am PROUD to be one of your drivers - thats why my car is painted Abbey orange !!! - my GT3 was less than 50k and I cant afford to spend tons of money on the drift car as the Porsche is effectively my new works van which I basically didnt buy but spent the finance on the Porker instead !!!    

Your premises are on a farm, are down a track, and I have scraped my splitter coming to see you, but that wasnt my comment and I havent highlighted it as I felt it was a cheap shot that belittled the excellent facilities you guys have. Most other tuners should be so lucky. GBH is on a farm industrial site, Gary used to be but I dont know about these days, Ron might as well be and I think that is common for a lot of garages that need space to work on longer term project type work.

I dont think I deserve a bashing for saying that Porsches are better than Skylines from one of my favourite people in the scene, who is kind enough to spend thousands on me a year for my driftcar, as I expect you might agree with me - I know you love the M3 and the Cossie, so you cant just be Japan obsessed, despite them being your area of specialist expertise !!    

Sorry if I have annoyed you pal,

J.xxx


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

bladerider said:


> I'll be sure to remind my mum who lost two uncles in the war at the hands of the Japanese exactly how courteous and wonderful they are !!!


Now you really sounds like a child, I not said that japan is the new paradise on earth. So don't come with your WW2 shit, so maybe it's my japanese wife's fault that your family members dies in WW2 . . what a crap. Be aware that you're fitting, with thoses kind of statements, in the perfect image the arrogant imperial british idiot who sees his great nation above the entire world . . . most people in europe laugh about this by the way.



> I will also remind myself how the Japanese respect the 180kmh limit and the GTR/Supra/NSX gangs dont actually run the Wangan at 300kmh+


Yeah that's nice, maybe watch the movie Tokyo Drift again, and next time you visit japan (if you ever visited) check out the a map, Japan is not Tokyo and Wangan is not racing-Mafia. 99% of the people in Japan drive like grand mothers and the extreme is a few heroic blokes doing a 300Kph on ahighway at midnight, at least better then ten thausends of germans doing a 200+ every day on german streets and fighting the shit out of thausend slower drivers . . . . .



> I will furthermore remind myself how left hookers are not really deemed more "prestigious" in Japan, and that this is in a society possibly more than any other built on heirarchy and who has more has a louder voice to tell those with less all about it.


It's certainly not you that will tell me about japan society problems, and certainly not your meaningless comments that will doom the entire japanese culture . . .



> I would also just point out that the UK is the only OTHER country in the world where the Skyline GTR was sold OFFICIALLY by Nissan, warranted by them, serviced by them, and it cost £54,000 which at the time was the same cost as an NSX, and also the same as a porsche 911, albeit not a GT3 or Turbo model. So hardly any of your arguments hold water. All you keep harping on about is your rose tinted view of your experiences in Japan itself and some weird semi religious fervour for all things not western.


The UK-GTR was certainly not a big attempt for Nissan to invade that market , no need to change the steering wheel in first place, same for Australia. For the price it's irrelevant, what counts is the price of a car in its origin country, then you know the real value of that product.



> If the Japs could sell a supercar they would build one - all they are interested in is the bottom line, like most others EXCEPT perhaps the same zany Italian and others who give us the likes of Pagani, Lamborghini, Koenigsegg etc etc. The japs build - on the whole - mundane cars to be sold in zillions worldwide, to a lowish price with medium detailing and finish to an ever increasing audience of people frustrated by the even worse offerings of the American big 3. Not quite the reality you would have us believe with these car ninjas making the best they can on a budget because they believe thats the best solution to the problem !!!


Yeah have a another drink . . . . nearly all japanese performance cars have been produced with losses, and in relatively small numbers. Of course your ego and arrogant western view doesn't allow you to think a bit of the possibility that what I posted IS the japanese car reality!
Brows the japanese car makers internet sites and you will quick see that making cars affordable and usable for life is the main goal of all.
No show off buy a 50k Audi and be the king of luxury and idiocy! . . .


> Now give it a rest - you've gone way past tollerably boring into zealousy annoying.


さよなら　あほ！

By the way it's a discussion and no big fight against you and me, so a harsh the words get, keep in mind that a fresh beer makes us all feel better (-.^)


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## sleepyfox (Jul 9, 2005)

gtrlux - you may have started off with a valid argument but that has been lost along the way somewhere.

You characterise an entire society by a stereotype - obviously this is a fallacy, I don't need to visit either Japan or Germany to know that your stereotypical views are not reflected by reality. I also would not use a (bad) Hollywood film as a primer for a three-dimensional real-life living culture. Denigrating Bladey's comments (no matter what they were) is also the sign of desperation.

I for one think posts on this topic should either be about it's title or moderators close it down, as it seems to have degenerated into name-calling.

Having owned both skylines and porsches (multiples in both cases) I decline to comment as I have owned neither a GT2 nor a R34 GT-R, and defer to the relatively few posters on this thread that have owned either, or in apparently one and only one case, both.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

GTRLUX ,stop getting so defensive about Japan and her Culture ,Other Countrys get the same treatment on here and there are pleanty of other people from those Countrys on this forum ,look at the the American friendly fire thread.We take the p1ss out of the UK (Our own Country) regarding Law/ order and being a soft touch.I think you have lost the plot on this thread anyway ,if not all folk agree with you on something banging on and on will not change anyones mind.


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## Godspd (Dec 12, 2001)

*Can't believe what I am reading*

I have been following this thread for the past week or so, and after reading some of the recent post, I could no longer bear to hold my voice: so here goes.

First of all I would just like to say that I have great repsect to gtr.co.uk, as it has always been a GTR forum that has produced informative debats in a very mature and gentleman like manner. That's why even though I live in Australia (where we have our own skyline australia forum) I am always visiting this site for a good read on GTR related topics.

But after reading the comment from bladerider it has digusted me:

"I'll be sure to remind my mum who lost two uncles in the war at the hands of the Japanese exactly how courteous and wonderful they are !!!"

I must say that this is a very immature and childish comment and IMHO bordering on a personal attack. As if we where to make reference to "historic events", the British would be very high on the list of savagery, but this is also irrelavent here, as this is a "GTR forum" and the past should be left where it belongs, in the past, end off.


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## gtrlux (Mar 8, 2006)

I think that we all agree on Guy s statements and also Blades on the tuners service and competence in the UK.
I also agree on the statements made on the quality of the Porsche cars.

What I not agree is that you trow the entire japanese car culture in the bag you want, because you need it to fit in the childish stereotype of the great west VS stupid asian!
Futher more I think in a discussion it is good to counter with arguments, Blade made his and do mine. That's how a discussion works. 

For the japanese spirit question, if you're on a UK corvette forum and you don't get anything about the american free life essence and spirit, it can be possible that you miss the point about some things, cos you have the same case of a legendary car, that was affordable to many americans and therefore got a legend . . . it not got a legend because it did the best time and a track or because nobody could afford it. (not a car for the rich and rich only).

Again I will say: Don't get upset, I prefer a heated discussion sometimes on here, then answering to the 100000s question about boost pressure!
Peace guys:sadwavey: 

  :wavey:


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## [email protected] (Jun 2, 2003)

vincentdds said:


> I have own a Porsche 996GT2 for awhile and recently considering a GTR R34. I realized that the R34 are the holy grails of import tuners. But I have not personally seen how they perform on the road race track in person. I want to know how are these cars compare to the 996GT2 in terms of reliable performance on the street/track if tuned to the same hp? How do you compare their handlings?


Isn't that like comparing a lolly to a poodle?!

In my limited experience I'd say the R34 GTR can carry more people and more luggage and it can travel at high speeds with that payload. But there's a limit to how long it can cruise at those high speeds.

A 'stage one' GT2 on the other hand (Rob Kenworthy's for example) can do over 200mph as often as it wants for as long as it wants (unlike say an Enzo or Skyline).

Don't get me wrong, I love GTRs as much as anyone (I have an 32 and an 33), but the engineering on a GT2 is from a different planet - as you'd expect from a car that cost well over double that of a UK R34 when new... well over three times the Japanese new price...

Your term 'reliable performance' would be 100% relevant to the Porsche, but a little less so for the Nissan.

As for handling comparissions, I refer back to my first lolly/poodle comment. Even an Impreza or Evo driver would get in an R34 and say the variable 4WD and the 4WS provides the driver with a somewhat strange (but effective) experience. So you can draw your own conclusions as to how it will compare to a RWD rear engine'd car.
:flame:

PS Apologies if the above has already been said by others - I haven't read the whole thread


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## Luki (Jan 3, 2007)

When we take the unmodded engines/cars, it could be that the Porsche turbo (not important GT2 or turbo) is a little bit more built for constant high-speed-reliability. 

When talking about tuned engines, it depends a lot on the well done work of the tuner! Porsche is well known for it's reliability and the GTR too.

I have no personal experience yet with a GTR, but with Porsche, and i had never a huge problem. The only thing was a broken manifold (origin) with my 993turbo after 120000km. 

I find the GTR more fascinating because of it's technical possibilities. The Porsche-turbo-engine is quiet simple built up to the 996turbo. The 997turbo now is a different story...


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## [email protected] M/S (Nov 30, 2003)

*What a post.*

It is a shame that this comparison between two excellent but very different motor cars has degenerated into amongst other things a critisicm of the tuning companies in this country.

Whenever Guy comes on here it ends up with him having an endless dig at the product and its repairers.

I would like to take him to task about a few matters in the politest way as we were the company to carry out the repairs to the last skyline he owned and I feel that his critiscisms are perhaps aimed at us.

He describes us as a "back street garage". Well perhaps "a small company with 11 employees and a turnover of getting on towards 2 million this year with 200k of parts stock and 3/4 million insurable assets" .........back street garage......NO.

In fact I would challenge him to find ANY UK Nissan Main dealer to beat our inventory of equipment, Nissan approved or otherwise. The only crteria we dont meet on their repairers check list is "High St Postition".

As for the Ruff jobbie on his car I would be quite happy for any customer to drop his car in on a Monday and collect it on the Friday with another 200 ps.
No fuss, no bother and no big deal. The only thing is that the work would have to be done to our proven spec and not with parts specced by the customer after reading 10 books about Skyline Tuning!!!!!.

We have modern courtesy cars available, a fully enclosed recovery vehicle and speaking from mine and Marks perspective undiminished enthuisiasm for the vehicle.

We have been known to attend to customers needs ,with car problems I might add, in Scotland, Cyprus, South Africa,Norway, New Zealand, Belgium, Holland etc etc.Nothing is too much trouble.

There is a saying in business " You cant please all the customers all the time"
When you work with mechanical things it becomes even more difficult. Oh how I wish when a customer phones with a problem I could tell him "Just reboot it" that will fix it. LOL.
Oh and I forgot 5 different types of coffee........ LOL
Tony


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Tony,

I think you might have misread my last post, as I thought it was an attempt to partly defend the UK tuners. 

It is clearly inappropriate to compare or expect to compare a Porsche costing £126k from a Porsche dealer that sells many tens of millions of pounds of cars a year, with a far cheaper car sold and looked after by any small or medium size tuner.

As for criticism any of you, I have not criticised anyone and have specifically never mentioned any companies by name. We also both know that the engine you built for me for my R34 was fantastic and is still running and ran 9s in Tim's car.

My comments if you re-read them are well-balanced and simply state the differences in the cars (as the only person on here who has commented that has owned both) and also that the ownership experiences are different and the reasons why.

You will also read my recomendation early on in this thread that if possible the person who asked the initial question should get both, as they are both great in different ways.

Guy

PS My greatest and fondest memory of any car experience I have was that amazing first trip to the 'ring 24hrs in a convoy of GTRs, with Mark in my passenger seat. That trip and it's many highlights will never be surpassed and I regularly watch that video with fondness.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Tony, I think you'll find Guy was probably the only person on the thread actually defending your industry.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I have only spoken the truth, as always.

I have not bashed UK tuners. Tony knows how I feel, and knows that even when having a vigorous debate that I support Abbeys always.

At no time have I said the UK is better than any other countries, or the "west" for that matter, unlike some when describing Japan, and I certainly havent professed to us having some wonderful culture that should be adored and respected, so theres little point saying I am archaic, childish, living in the past or portaying Imperialism - the truth is the UK has carried out bad things in years gone by, but we certainly dont trade on having this deeply spiritual, courteous, respectful culture that some here want to ram down our throats in respect of Japan.

Part of my argument and the way its constructed is to highlight these stereotypes by using others against them, most here know that. Obviously Godspd who has managed a grand total of 25 posts in 6 years membership is obviously such a valued contributor to the board then I will bow down before him for the wise and insightful gems he has shared with us over the years and apologise for making him actually have to dust off his keyboard - by the way, THAT is more of a personal attack, and a very very mild one I would add.

I love skylines GTRs, I love driving them, and would gladly have another, I have pointed out in almost every reply I have given that I feel that comparing one to a GT2 is almost irrelevent.

Without wishing to be labelled childish again (but no doubt will !!   ) I would also point out that my first posts were purely based around the car rather than all the "lifestyle" bullsh1t that is no entangling the thread, particularly the Zealous Culture offensive by Mr Lux which admittedly has got on my tits and now has me on a more aggressive tangent.

As far as Im concerned the thread has run its course.

J.


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## 763paf (Sep 18, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> Tony, I think you'll find Guy was probably the only person on the thread actually defending your industry.


and me....

For the record.....


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## vincentdds (Jan 25, 2007)

I will get a chance to test drive a mildy mod R34 sometimes this week. I will report back here thereafter. Thank you for the true car enthusiasts who contributed to this thread.

Vincent


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## sublimesnfu (Apr 3, 2007)

*Well...*



vincentdds said:


> I will get a chance to test drive a mildy mod R34 sometimes this week. I will report back here thereafter. Thank you for the true car enthusiasts who contributed to this thread.
> 
> Vincent


did you get to take one out for a test drive?


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