# Thoughts



## m3csl (May 3, 2017)

Hi Guys,

I am considering this car:

www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...with-forged-engine-warranty-available/6919984

What are your thoughts on it, price etc?

What does it mean forged engine (stupid question), is that a bonus?

Thanks

Alex


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## CelticWebs (Apr 3, 2013)

Forged engine is an expensive thing to do. It means the internals have been upgraded to withstand greater power without the worry of parts breaking so easily. Should mean it's near bomb proof engine wise. 

I can't load the link for some reason at the moment but I'm sure somebody will look and chirp in shortly.


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

m3csl said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> I am considering this car:
> 
> ...


I'd say that's a decent price and from a reputable specialist. Forged engine means replacing the standard Nissan conrods (and usually pistons) for 'forged' rather than 'cast' items. Basically they are stronger and can cope with the increased stresses associated with tuning the car and upping the torque and power, which in turn means you needn't necessarily worry so much about your engine being damaged by the 4.25 tune, so yes it's definitely a bonus and isn't cheap (minimum of £7k+).

I would however be asking for detailed information on exactly what work has been carried out, i.e. what rods were fitted, if the pistons were done (I'm assuming so if they are quoting £20k spent) and by who. Also, when was it forged and at what mileage.

Let us know how you get on!


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## james_barker (Nov 17, 2016)

Sly the owner of Kaizer is a qualified master GTR mechanic. All he does so he's a very solid business. I'd give him a call and have a chat about the car. 

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## m3csl (May 3, 2017)

Ok great, thanks for the info guys.


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## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

i think i saw this there last weekend, when i had some tyres fitted.

Sly is definitely a really good guy. 

as stated above, master GT-R mechanic so you cant go wrong


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## m3csl (May 3, 2017)

-SeanS said:


> I'd say that's a decent price and from a reputable specialist. Forged engine means replacing the standard Nissan conrods (and usually pistons) for 'forged' rather than 'cast' items. Basically they are stronger and can cope with the increased stresses associated with tuning the car and upping the torque and power, which in turn means you needn't necessarily worry so much about your engine being damaged by the 4.25 tune, so yes it's definitely a bonus and isn't cheap (minimum of £7k+).
> 
> I would however be asking for detailed information on exactly what work has been carried out, i.e. what rods were fitted, if the pistons were done (I'm assuming so if they are quoting £20k spent) and by who. Also, when was it forged and at what mileage.
> 
> Let us know how you get on!


Just had a chat with them at Kaizer, talked through everything. 

Car sound great, had engine forged 500 miles ago due to previous engine failure, so basically new forged engine in the car. Would this put you off it has had a new engine or when it comes for to sell engine isnt original would devalue the car?

Just had service, mot and brakes to. So seems like a sorted car.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Short answer is it won't put off people who want a car with a bit more power, but will put off people who want a standard one. Basically don't let it be the reason not to buy the car.


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## matty32 (Dec 18, 2005)

m3csl said:


> Just had a chat with them at Kaizer, talked through everything.
> 
> Car sound great, had engine forged 500 miles ago due to previous engine failure, so basically new forged engine in the car. Would this put you off it has had a new engine or when it comes for to sell engine isnt original would devalue the car?
> 
> Just had service, mot and brakes to. So seems like a sorted car.


sounds good to me!

id pick it up :thumbsup:

you have a master GT-R mechanic telling you the cars all good.

i dont think you can get better really.


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## m3csl (May 3, 2017)

Only thing that puts me off when it comes to selling maybe and issue


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## Chris**** (Apr 27, 2017)

Any idea why it had a new engine? And why would you spend all the money to forge an engine, only to sell the car 500 miles later. 

Sure its fine if the guy selling it is genuine, and certainly sounds that way. Just a bit weird. 

To be fair there is loads of reasons, but if the car is sound then certainly looks like a good buy.


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## m3csl (May 3, 2017)

Yep does seem abit weird, it was already stage 4.25 then the engine failed so Kaizer put new engine in and forged it. Which is great, but can see why it may put some people off.

Im looking to have the car couple of years, it will obviously lose some money in that time but I do not want to buy a car that maybe really hard to sell on due to engine etc.

Thanks for all help so far guys.


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## Chris**** (Apr 27, 2017)

m3csl said:


> Yep does seem abit weird, it was already stage 4.25 then the engine failed so Kaizer put new engine in and forged it. Which is great, but can see why it may put some people off.
> 
> Im looking to have the car couple of years, it will obviously lose some money in that time but I do not want to buy a car that maybe really hard to sell on due to engine etc.
> 
> Thanks for all help so far guys.


Reading a bit on Kaizer, i would not be worried to be honest. And although an engine change is not great, it would be perfect for someone that is intendeing to go to big power etc. 

Certainly worth looking at, as most dealers dont have a clue about the GTR.


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

I am a bit confused you are getting a car with a new engine that has been built to handle the power by a reputable garage , whats not to like about it ? maybe the last owner could not afford to have it fixed so the car was bought with a dead engine


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Chris**** said:


> And why would you spend all the money to forge an engine, only to sell the car 500 miles later.


He might've run out of money and selling it became the only option.


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## m3csl (May 3, 2017)

terry lloyd said:


> I am a bit confused you are getting a car with a new engine that has been built to handle the power by a reputable garage , whats not to like about it ? maybe the last owner could not afford to have it fixed so the car was bought with a dead engine


Very true, I am new to the GTR game so just asking as many questions as possible to gain a good understand. Thanks


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

m3csl said:


> Just had a chat with them at Kaizer, talked through everything.
> 
> Car sound great, had engine forged 500 miles ago due to previous engine failure, so basically new forged engine in the car. Would this put you off it has had a new engine or when it comes for to sell engine isnt original would devalue the car?
> 
> Just had service, mot and brakes to. So seems like a sorted car.


It wouldn't necessarily put me off so long as the work was all documented and receipted, hence my suggestion of getting all the details behind the work, exactly what the damage was etc. After all, so long as all damaged components were replaced/uprated, it's not really any different to someone forging an already mechanically sound engine, it's just the stigma associated with saying the engine blew. Was it Kaizer that forged the motor or was it taken somewhere else?

Personally, so long as Kaizer could provide me with all the details of the damage and work carried out, and the car checked out in person I'd go for it. I think if it was a different car that didn't have such a great tuning community a car like this might put people off come selling time, but when all the decent tuners are well known and the workmanship can be testified for there's not much not to like. A lot of people buy a GTR, spend thousands tuning it, then thousands forging the engine, in this case you save all that cost and can sleep at night knowing you won't be throwing a rod anytime soon lol.


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## dudersvr (May 7, 2003)

Id buy that in a heartbeat, its around 10K to forge a motor, no brainer.


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## james_barker (Nov 17, 2016)

dudersvr said:


> Id buy that in a heartbeat, its around 10K to forge a motor, no brainer.


Agree. Assuming the back story all stacks up it looks like a cracking deal. Wish I could nab it myself... 

For pure curiosity if I was buying I'd want to know why it came for sale just after dropping 7k into it. 

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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

This is a no brainer! The car is hd a solid build done on it, all 4.25 engines are going to need building at some point that's just a fact, might as well buy a car that has already had the money pumped in to it and the headache and worry taken away from you...... couple that with the warranty that is available and you have peace of mind. 

This isn't going to put people off, anybody that can read will know that a tuned car with this many miles on is going to need some work and will be a selling plus point for you! 

Just get it bought and stop ****ing about


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

I'd want to know why it was sold so quick after forge. If there's a valid reason, I'd buy it quick quick, as it's a stokin price as people have said, and in the long run will save you shed loads of £. It's got some nice extras as well.


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## Tinyflier (Jun 13, 2012)

I've just had my engine forged by ACSpeedtech and the reasonable expectation is that should I decide to sell it in the future, it will ADD value to the end price not subtract it. 

Buying one from Sly newly forged has to be a win win scenario.

David


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## CelticWebs (Apr 3, 2013)

Am I the only one that thinks that cheap if it's a fully forged engine? 

I know it could be done with cheaper parts but surely that's still cheap?

Like tinyflier, I've just had mine forged by AC and I'd like to think it's added a few quid to the price!


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## billythefish (Jul 2, 2015)

At the price and mileage, assuming the story is true around why he's getting rid so soon after the build, I'd say this is a no brainer personally as it seems a very good price given the fact it's been forged. Like CelticWebs said, this price is very low, I'd have thought you'd be looking at around £46-47 for a similar build and mileage car....


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

More importantly than a dull gtr, will you have a csl to sell?


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

If, as Tony suggests, more and more Stage 4+ GTRs will require engine work done on them, those that have already had it done may even see a slight premium increase (over and above the increase you would typically expect from a forged engine) as the stock ones may end up being perceived as a bit of a ticking time bomb.

Even though I am getting mine forged very soon, I am still a little sceptical about how many really do "need" it done (I will find out whether mine "needed" it done or not soon enough).


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

Evo9lution said:


> If, as Tony suggests, more and more Stage 4+ GTRs will require engine work done on them, those that have already had it done may even see a slight premium increase (over and above the increase you would typically expect from a forged engine) as the stock ones may end up being perceived as a bit of a ticking time bomb.
> 
> Even though I am getting mine forged very soon, I am still a little sceptical about how many really do "need" it done (I will find out whether mine "needed" it done or not soon enough).


I've no doubt in my mind that the proportion of failures in relation to the total 4.25+ cars out there is minimal. There are also so many factors in the failures such as how the car was mapped and how it's been treated etc. Personally I'd never run a tuned car that wasn't properly dyno tuned by a very reputable specialist, whereas I notice a lot of people are happy with a generic map being sent over and uploaded without being tuned specifically to the car.

It's absolutely a risk running 4.25 on stock internals and I feel for the guys that have had their engines go, but I don't think the risk is as bad as it's being made out. 

The fact that Litchfield will warranty a GTR with over 700bhp with torque around the 620 mark that has been tuned by them says a lot I think.


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

time will tell hey! Even if I am wrong (which I won't be, just for the record) and the standard blocks turn out to be bomb proof even at 4.25 it just means the cars with the forged builds will command more of a premium because they are an even stronger starting point for massive power...... granted it won't be the money you put in that you'll get back on the car but it will be worth more


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

Stealth69 said:


> time will tell hey! Even if I am wrong (which I won't be, just for the record) and the standard blocks turn out to be bomb proof even at 4.25 it just means the cars with the forged builds will command more of a premium because they are an even stronger starting point for massive power...... granted it won't be the money you put in that you'll get back on the car but it will be worth more


Totally agree with you that a forged car is worth more and I'd be more than happy to pay more for one that's been forged. But let's not forget that even forged motors aren't necessarily bomb proof and again you still have the factors of who did the work, how was it mapped, and how was it maintained/cared for.

The point I'd like to make is that it's all well and good warning people about the risks of running a tuned GTR on stock internals, but I think the way things are going on this forum there's a danger that a 4.25 car on stock internals is perceived as a ticking time bomb which I don't believe to be the case. There are people who have done god knows how many track days at 4.25 and pushed the car way harder than most would and had no issues at all, and others who just use it for fast road and threw a rod. That's where I would be questioning if there was an underlying issue such as poor mapping etc.

For every post we get here from someone with a blown engine there must be 100+ people running that same level of tune who will be absolutely fine. After all you only ever hear about the cars that have issues, never about the countless others that have had none.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

I agree 100% and have questioned the comments being made about the frequency of these cars blowing engines. I'm having mine done as I'm typically paranoid and as I'm moving abroad (making the ease of returning a broken car to my tuner much more awkward) but there's a reasonably high possibility that it is entirely unnecessary!


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Evo9lution said:


> have questioned the comments being made about the frequency of these cars blowing engines. I'm having mine done as I'm typically paranoid and as I'm moving abroad (making the ease of returning a broken car to my tuner much more awkward) but there's a reasonably high possibility that it is entirely unnecessary!





-SeanS said:


> But let's not forget that even forged motors aren't necessarily bomb proof and again you still have the factors of who did the work, how was it mapped, and how was it maintained/cared for.


A forged engine is going to be a LOT more bomb proof than a stage 4/4.25 stock GTR, even if charlie chaplin built it, the forged components are going to make it stronger by themselves! You will also find nearly all the owners on this very forum, pamper their GTR's and they are they very well maintained aka as you would expect, on an enthusiasts forum.



-SeanS said:


> but I think the way things are going on this forum there's a danger that a 4.25 car on stock internals is perceived as a ticking time bomb which I don't believe to be the case. There are people who have done god knows how many track days at 4.25 and pushed the car way harder than most would and had no issues at all, and others who just use it for fast road and threw a rod.After all you only ever hear about the cars that have issues, never about the countless others that have had none


But maybe they are my friend 'a ticking time bomb', that's why us that have had our engines go pop, are sharing our experiences, so people KNOW it's going on and can make an informed choice, you have said about how many people are fine that you don't hear about, same goes with blown engines, how many don't you hear about on the forum, where a tuner may have asked the owner not to post it for fear of reputation, or even the owner may not post for not wanting to upset the tuner, if they are fixing it with a good ££ deal, or maybe the owner doesn't want people to know, for fear of not being able to sell the car afterwards or in the future, and so on.



-SeanS said:


> That's where I would be questioning if there was an underlying issue such as poor mapping etc.
> For every post we get here from someone with a blown engine there must be 100+ people running that same level of tune who will be absolutely fine. .


Ohhh and you seem to think its the map, I don't..I was at stage 4.25 for over TWO years, bad map and it would have died very much earlier. I personally think the stock rods are tough, but over time and with torque upped on stage 4/4.25 to 620lb/650+, there's a reason Nissan cap stock torque to 467lb/ft, and here we are upping it to well over 620-650 when tuning. My view is it's stressing the rods and over time they are slowly getting bent/stressed or both, which is causing them to fail. Which makes sense to show why some people would be ok, and others not. If the rods are getting bent/stressed or both over time, then someone like me who plays often and well in the car, is going to increase the chances of failure in time, and someone who doesnt I.e EvoGeoff could be stage 4.25 until 2050 and have no problems, so yes comes down to use and how you drive the car, and only you know that, so you know yourself if it's best to get forged. Also lady luck get's to throw Her dice as well now and again, so is it best to get forged stage 4+? Yes everytime for me, *IF* you like playing hard in your R35 GT-R.


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## snuffy (Mar 26, 2014)

-SeanS said:


> Personally I'd never run a tuned car that wasn't properly dyno tuned by a very reputable specialist, whereas I notice a lot of people are happy with a generic map being sent over and uploaded without being tuned specifically to the car.


Mind was road mapped (if that's the right term), i.e. driven, logged, mapped, driven again, tweaked etc.

ACSpeedTech did mine like that so I assumed that's how everyone did them ?


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

Chronos said:


> A forged engine is going to be a LOT more bomb proof than a stage 4/4.25 stock GTR, even if charlie chaplin built it, the forged components are going to make it stronger by themselves! You will also find nearly all the owners on this very forum, pamper their GTR's and they are they very well maintained aka as you would expect, on an enthusiasts forum.


Lol, I wondered when you would pipe up! When I mentioned certain people giving the impression 4.25s are a ticking time bomb guess who the main culprit was  Agree that the components themselves are obviously stronger than the stock ones, however there is a lot involved in disassembling a GTR engine and replacing the rods/pistons and other relevant parts then re-assembling. Just that process in itself gives a lot of opportunity for things to go wrong, never mind if the mapping etc isn't great. Couple that with the fact that a lot of forged motors then wind the torque right up and the relative risk could still be there is the point I was making. I was chatting at Litchfield just last week and they had a recently built motor in that was pissing oil out everywhere...



Chronos said:


> But maybe they are my friend 'a ticking time bomb', that's why us that have had our engines go pop, are sharing our experiences, so people KNOW it's going on and can make an informed choice, you have said about how many people are fine that you don't hear about, same goes with blown engines, how many don't you hear about on the forum, where a tuner may have asked the owner not to post it for fear of reputation, or even the owner may not post for not wanting to upset the tuner, if they are fixing it with a good ££ deal, or maybe the owner doesn't want people to know, for fear of not being able to sell the car afterwards or in the future, and so on.


As I said, it's great to warn other people about the risks, but you are quite fantastical in the way you 'share your experience'. It's shit what happened to your car and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and fair play to you for forging it and enjoying it properly, but you've got to be able to look at the situation realistically - You are definitely in the minority, not the majority. 



Chronos said:


> Ohhh and you seem to think its the map, I don't..I was at stage 4.25 for over TWO years, bad map and it would have died very much earlier. I personally think the stock rods are tough, but over time and with torque upped on stage 4/4.25 to 620lb/650+, there's a reason Nissan cap stock torque to 467lb/ft, and here we are upping it to well over 620-650 when tuning. My view is it's stressing the rods and over time they are slowly getting bent/stressed or both, which is causing them to fail. Which makes sense to show why some people would be ok, and others not. If the rods are getting bent/stressed or both over time, then someone like me who plays often and well in the car, is going to increase the chances of failure in time, and someone who doesnt I.e EvoGeoff could be stage 4.25 until 2050 and have no problems, so yes comes down to use and how you drive the car, and only you know that, so you know yourself if it's best to get forged. Also lady luck get's to throw Her dice as well now and again, so is it best to get forged stage 4+? Yes everytime for me, *IF* you like playing hard in your R35 GT-R.


How can you be so sure it wasn't the mapping? Fair enough if it was a horrendous map it may have been much more imminent, but if it wasn't great it could have shortened the lifespan of your engine greatly. I'd agree that over a length of time the rods will undoubtedly get subjected to greater stresses than a stock car, that's just the facts, but what's the lifespan of a stock motor and by how much does running a 4.25 car reduce it? We don't know we can only speculate. As you've said it's also dependent on how you use the car, if you're at santapod and track days every other week or month then that certainly won't help.

I don't mean to sound like a Litchfields fan boy but whenever I've been there they've had cars in mapped by other 'specialists' that really are ticking time bombs and it does make me think it plays a huge part in the recent failures. As I said the fact they will warranty big power cars shows how much confidence they have in their tuning. 

Just to be clear though I totally agree if you can justify it, forging is the way to go. I just think this opinion that 4.25s are ticking time bombs is a sweeping statement to make.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

-SeanS said:


> Lol, I wondered when you would pipe up! When I mentioned certain people giving the impression 4.25s are a ticking time bomb guess who the main culprit was  Agree that the components themselves are obviously stronger than the stock ones, however there is a lot involved in disassembling a GTR engine and replacing the rods/pistons and other relevant parts then re-assembling. Just that process in itself gives a lot of opportunity for things to go wrong, never mind if the mapping etc isn't great. Couple that with the fact that a lot of forged motors then wind the torque right up and the relative risk could still be there is the point I was making. I was chatting at Litchfield just last week and they had a recently built motor in that was pissing oil out everywhere...


lol I don't think you get the point old bean... You seem to be suggesting that everyone's builds except Litchfields are not competent. There are some great engine builders out there who have years of experience, with builds that have been running for years. Me sharing my experience and thoughts on what may be happening, is only 1 GTR owners view, people take what they want out of it as they do with everyone else's views , there's other engine issue threads on here, talking about engine issues, that I've never been a part of, hell I've not even started a thread about what happened to my own car. Would you prefer everyone didnt mention when they had a problem with their mighty GTR? Just to keep its reputation and value up? I think so.



-SeanS said:


> As I said, it's great to warn other people about the risks, but you are quite fantastical in the way you 'share your experience'. It's shit what happened to your car and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and fair play to you for forging it and enjoying it properly, but you've got to be able to look at the situation realistically - You are definitely in the minority, not the majority.


fantastical? lmao! I don't think the pictures I've shown of what happened to mine, and double the price of a forge down, with months of heartache is fantastical, It's fantastical that you think its fantastical, and on that note is fantastical even an Oxford english dictionary word? IF anything what I have posted is FACT, of what can happen, what DID happen, and to warn people of the possible risks! Now that's a fantastic thing to do.



-SeanS said:


> How can you be so sure it wasn't the mapping? Fair enough if it was a horrendous map it may have been much more imminent, but if it wasn't great it could have shortened the lifespan of your engine greatly. I'd agree that over a length of time the rods will undoubtedly get subjected to greater stresses than a stock car, that's just the facts, but what's the lifespan of a stock motor and by how much does running a 4.25 car reduce it? We don't know we can only speculate. As you've said it's also dependent on how you use the car, if you're at santapod and track days every other week or month then that certainly won't help.


How are you so sure it IS the mapping? You think it's the mapping, because noone can map like Litchfields ...yes? well thats the impression, fanboy comes to mind. Anyhow, yes other people have been mapping R35 GTr's for nearly 10 years now, and there are a lot of good mappers out there, and as I said before my personal view is, is the rods are maybe stressed over time Vs boost at 620lb/650+lbft. Just my view, from my experience as this is a forum.



-SeanS said:


> I don't mean to sound like a Litchfields fan boy but whenever I've been there they've had cars in mapped by other 'specialists' that really are ticking time bombs and it does make me think it plays a huge part in the recent failures. As I said the fact they will warranty big power cars shows how much confidence they have in their tuning.


Thing is, I've been to numerous tuners over the years, with different cars and they all think they do certain tuning services, better than the next tuner. I'm sure all the tuners have stories about each other, and I'm sure all the tuners have had their own failures, that people know about, and that people don't, that's the tuning game.



-SeanS said:


> Just to be clear though I totally agree if you can justify it, forging is the way to go. I just think this opinion that 4.25s are ticking time bombs is a sweeping statement to make.


I refer to my latest sweeping statement, and firmly stick by it.. Is it best to get forged stage 4+? Yes everytime for me, IF you like playing hard in your R35 GT-R.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

I wonder if stage 4+ cars that are driven mainly in auto have more problems than those that are driven in manual. It would make sense to me, auto drivers spend a lot of time in 5th and 6th gear at lower rpm which must stress the rods more than 3rd and 4th gear at higher rpm?


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

Chronos said:


> lol I don't think you get the point old bean... You seem to be suggesting that everyone's builds except Litchfields are not competent. There are some great engine builders out there who have years of experience, with builds that have been running for years. Me sharing my experience and thoughts on what may be happening, is only 1 GTR owners view, people take what they want out of it as they do with everyone else's views , there's other engine issue threads on here, talking about engine issues, that I've never been a part of, hell I've not even started a thread about what happened to my own car. Would you prefer everyone didnt mention when they had a problem with their mighty GTR? Just to keep its reputation and value up? I think so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think you get the point flower, I was merely suggesting people shouldn't automatically think a forged engine is bulletproof as they can still go, I also repeated my point about who built and mapped it being pertinent to it's reliability. I totally agree like for like a built motor will be more reliable, that goes without saying.

Trust me I'm not a Litcho fan boy, I've had a few disagreements with them and I'm a rational person, rational enough to realise that there are other tuners out there who deserve my money rather than just the big boys. But I don't think it's unreasonable of me to reference Litchfield, being one of the most competent tuners out there that worked with Ecutek to develop the software that a lot of other tuners use. Again, why would they be willing to warranty a Stage 5.5 on stock internals for example if the risk was as high as you are making it out to be? Fair point about who discloses what and tuner wars, but the recent failures from what we can see publicly don't seem to be coming from there. 

With regards to my fantastical comment, I thought it was obvious that I was referring to you exaggerating the risk, not exaggerating what actually happened to you. Oh and yes it is in the Oxford dictionary thanks  https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/fantastical

I don't disagree with much of what you've said, but it's pretty clear your the type of person that can't be reasoned with. I've put across my points fairly and you've basically responded by calling me a fan boy and wanting to not sully the 'mighty GTR reputation' :chuckle: I'm just trying to look at it objectively, which I don't think you are. You've had a bad experience and had to pay loads of money which again is crap, but you've got to balance that with some logic.

Not sure what you mean about your 'latest sweeping statement' - Of course it's best to get a forged motor at Stage 4+, I've not once disagreed with that.


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## -SeanS (Apr 10, 2012)

Trevgtr said:


> I wonder if stage 4+ cars that are driven mainly in auto have more problems than those that are driven in manual. It would make sense to me, auto drivers spend a lot of time in 5th and 6th gear at lower rpm which must stress the rods more than 3rd and 4th gear at higher rpm?


The stress comes under boost though, which if in auto would kick down to a lower gear? I think a lower boost pressure at low revs is usually programmed in too for reliability but happy to be corrected on that.


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## Trevgtr (Dec 24, 2012)

-SeanS said:


> The stress comes under boost though, which if in auto would kick down to a lower gear? I think a lower boost pressure at low revs is usually programmed in too for reliability but happy to be corrected on that.


I mean the stress of boosting in the wrong gear, rather like trying to accelerate your bicycle in 10th gear at 10mph up a hill when you should be in 3rd gear.

With so many owners voting 'auto' in the poll, I gave it another try last night just to remind myself how crazy it is.

Bimbling along at 50, press the throttle, yes it drops to 5th, a bit more throttle it drops to 4th, then plop plop straight back to 6th and I find myself pulling fairly hard with medium boost in 6th at a speed where I should be in 3rd or 4th. I didn't actually look at the psi, will check it out tomorrow, though I would guess around 0.8 bar (pulling fairly hard in the wrong gear).

Gave it several attempts, varying speeds with just medium throttle not full kickdown obviously, and the result was the same each time, it puts itself straight back into 6th and pulls fairly hard with medium boost, stressing everything because it's in the wrong gear.

I wouldn't be surprised if it contributes to bent rods in stock or modded cars, I could almost feel the stress, it was sending shivers through my spine in sympathy.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Trevgtr said:


> I wonder if stage 4+ cars that are driven mainly in auto have more problems than those that are driven in manual. It would make sense to me, auto drivers spend a lot of time in 5th and 6th gear at lower rpm which must stress the rods more than 3rd and 4th gear at higher rpm?





Trevgtr said:


> I mean the stress of boosting in the wrong gear, rather like trying to accelerate your bicycle in 10th gear at 10mph up a hill when you should be in 3rd gear.
> With so many owners voting 'auto' in the poll, I gave it another try last night just to remind myself how crazy it is.
> Bimbling along at 50, press the throttle, yes it drops to 5th, a bit more throttle it drops to 4th, then plop plop straight back to 6th and I find myself pulling fairly hard with medium boost in 6th at a speed where I should be in 3rd or 4th. I didn't actually look at the psi, will check it out tomorrow, though I would guess around 0.8 bar (pulling fairly hard in the wrong gear).
> Gave it several attempts, varying speeds with just medium throttle not full kickdown obviously, and the result was the same each time, it puts itself straight back into 6th and pulls fairly hard with medium boost, stressing everything because it's in the wrong gear.
> I wouldn't be surprised if it contributes to bent rods in stock or modded cars, I could almost feel the stress, it was sending shivers through my spine in sympathy.


you could have a good point there bud, maybe that's not helping either.. maybe one to ask the tuners see what they think? We ALL maintain our car's well on here, an enthusiast forum that's a given. Either way I think we can all agree, if you're going stage 4+ it's best to be forged for peace of mind and longevity, IF you drive the car hard. If you drive like Miss Daisy, then leave it stock. I don't think many on here, drive like Miss Daisy tho.



-SeanS said:


> blurb


Lets agree to disagree on some points, and agree on others. that's why we have forums to share the experience and knowledge, and not everyone is going to agree all the time, but we all have valid points.

After all is said and forged, I know that I feel a lot happier, without that little devil of worry in the back of my mind of what could happen, whilst boosting round and ripping up the tarmac, now that my engine is built. 

Now just to mix it up a bit, would I go 1000bhp? I'm not sure, and this is not due to the forged engine, but due to keeping the cars other components reliability due to the power/stress on them, is a 1000bhp car reliable? that's another debate entirely.

Ohhh and by telling me what type of person you think I am, when you don't know me from Adam, isn't going to get me to agree to your blurb darlin. Lowering yourself to get in sly digs isn't becoming of a GTR owner.  It's been emotional!


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## terry lloyd (Feb 12, 2014)

Would be nice to see some logs from the major tuners to see when they bring the boost/timing in, then a list of failures from each tuner 

If heineken did gtr forums


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

terry lloyd said:


> If heineken did gtr forums


It would be the same as this one with a tad more swearing and nudity


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## Stealth69 (Jan 6, 2005)

-SeanS said:


> Totally agree with you that a forged car is worth more and I'd be more than happy to pay more for one that's been forged. But let's not forget that even forged motors aren't necessarily bomb proof and again you still have the factors of who did the work, how was it mapped, and how was it maintained/cared for.
> 
> The point I'd like to make is that it's all well and good warning people about the risks of running a tuned GTR on stock internals, but I think the way things are going on this forum there's a danger that a 4.25 car on stock internals is perceived as a ticking time bomb which I don't believe to be the case. There are people who have done god knows how many track days at 4.25 and pushed the car way harder than most would and had no issues at all, and others who just use it for fast road and threw a rod. That's where I would be questioning if there was an underlying issue such as poor mapping etc.
> 
> For every post we get here from someone with a blown engine there must be 100+ people running that same level of tune who will be absolutely fine. After all you only ever hear about the cars that have issues, never about the countless others that have had none.


Oh I agree totally...... there are so many contributing factors, the fact you have minimised the "overheads" built in to the engine by Nissan and making them very small is just one of the factors..... then you have servicing, driving style, mechanical sympathy etc etc to take in to account...... It's the same with any tuned car, the more you eat in to the tolerances the more likely you are to have a problem, simply fact.

Once you forge the engine the same stuff applies, its just a cycle...... a 4.25 BUILT engine will put you well well well within the tolerances of the components, and then you start adding Bigger Turbos, a shit ton more pressure etc etc and you'll eventually find yourself back in the same 4.25 std block situation, you'll just be much faster LOL

Again the builder/tuner and components play a huge part, you'd only use someone you trust entirely without doubt, you wouldn't use a mickey Mouse garage.

At the end of the day the GT-R is no different to any other tuned Jap motor


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

Chronos said:


> We ALL maintain our car's well on here, an enthusiast forum that's a given.


Some owners want a GTR for a short period of time (to scratch an itch so to speak) and don't look after it as they know that they will sell it on soon.

Also, an owner may take the car to their tuner every two weeks for a service / oil change etc. but if they spend the intervening period slamming off the rev limiter while producing flames (for example, the pathetically titled and downright stupid "Godzilla mode"), running pops & bangs all the time or flooring the throttle from low revs in a high gear all the time, the regular servicing is just papering over the cracks. Something will break soon or later.

Given the above, I don't think that it is correct to make the statement that you did above. In the same way that I don't think it's correct to say that "lots" of Stage 4+ cars are breaking engines. "Lots" is subjective and I know far more Stage 4+ cars that haven't broken an engine than have. Mileage is a factor but every engine will break eventually if worked for long enough. On an active car (especially a modified one), there are so many confounding variables that it becomes an almost moot point. The sample size is just too small.


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Evo9lution said:


> Some owners want a GTR for a short period of time (to scratch an itch so to speak) and don't look after it as they know that they will sell it on soon.
> 
> Also, an owner may take the car to their tuner every two weeks for a service / oil change etc. but if they spend the intervening period slamming off the rev limiter while producing flames (for example, the pathetically titled and downright stupid "Godzilla mode"), running pops & bangs all the time or flooring the throttle from low revs in a high gear all the time, the regular servicing is just papering over the cracks. Something will break soon or later.
> 
> Given the above, I don't think that it is correct to make the statement that you did above. In the same way that I don't think it's correct to say that "lots" of Stage 4+ cars are breaking engines. "Lots" is subjective and I know far more Stage 4+ cars that haven't broken an engine than have. Mileage is a factor but every engine will break eventually if worked for long enough. On an active car (especially a modified one), there are so many confounding variables that it becomes an almost moot point. The sample size is just too small.


As i said, "We ALL maintain our car's well on here, an enthusiast forum that's a given." The people that buy them, to scratch the itch wont be on this forum, or won't be on it for very long, and are not classed as an enthusiast. Why would they if its only for a short period of ownership, whereas the regular people on the forum, are the ones who have the car for a good while, will maintain it well. Maintaining a car is one thing, and smashing the **** out of it on the road each day is another, as you have said there are a lot of variables. If a car is used hard, as i have said countless times, it will have problems earlier. Same if its driven round at Miss.Daisy pace all its life, it will probably only need servicing.. just like yours. 

Also you are contradicting yourself there chap, "In the same way that I don't think it's correct to say that "lots" of Stage 4+ cars are breaking engines. Mileage is a factor but every engine will break eventually if worked for long enough. On an active car (especially a modified one)" :tard:

I mean if you wanna be really silly, there have been STOCK R35s throw a rod.. ohh yes there has so in that case shouldnt we all be forging as soon as we buy one? hell no. but its all about variables that caused it., there have been stage 5 R35s running fine at 850bhp and 700+lbft as well, would they last forever? or could they be ticking? it's a BIG risk I'd say, My view is from what i have witnessed and been told about in the last year or so, and the cars that have blown have all been stage 4+, so that's where my opinion comes from. Just ask acspeed how many blown engines they have fixed the last year as well!

After all is said, you mod your car, you take your chances, simple as that. After what happened to me, I could have rebuilt the engine as BONE stock, Why didnt I? because I don't want to take that chance another time, as it hurt enough the 1st time, ask any GTR owner how it feels when your engine grenades itself, its a very unpleasant experience. Thus mine is now forged, to UP UP UP the variables and tolerances in my favor.


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## Evo9lution (Aug 24, 2013)

I rest my case!


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## Chronos (Dec 2, 2013)

Evo9lution said:


> I rest my case!


So on that note, shall I call your tuner and cancel your forge? Maybe you'll be one of the many that doesn't have engine issues, maybe you won't be so lucky. That also raise's the point, how long can a forged engine last, shall I keep mine at stock power so it lasts until im 100 years old? shall I mod it to 1200 bhp and be mechanically sympathetic as i am, and maintain it well, but then lady luck might not be on my side next week, and it could kaboom!. So where does it all end? Why even start? Just ride a push bike instead! :middlefinger-smileyopcorn:

What was this thread about again? ...back on topic...


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## DAL3S (Sep 1, 2016)

Car from the spec and advert looks and reads beautiful. I nearly bought this car but wanted something lower mileage and opted for another white gem. Thumbs up from me, I wonder whether the price is negotiable or set in stone? Good luck. I am pretty new to the GTR scene myself but I have heard good things about KM.


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## R35_owner (Jun 3, 2014)

Or buy it and we can swap engines if you want a standard block loool


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## CelticWebs (Apr 3, 2013)

Did you go see it and check it out?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Chronos,

There aren't a lot of good GT-R mappers out there.

Let's be honest, would you be able to spot one anyway?

The stock ecu has excellent knock control which means it can readily save the engine from bad mapping long before a failure. The car is also stellar fast even when poorly mapped. Put these two together and without driving the same car with a better map, side by side, how are you going to tell?

If you don't suspect an issue, why would you datalog? If you do datalog could you tell it was a bad map?


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## Richie84 (May 1, 2017)

Getting back to the car in the original post. If the cipclips, bell housing and engine have been done the n what would be the next weakest thing on this car given the current stage 4.25 ?


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