# developing a Lysholm supercharger for the RB26



## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

thinking about how much an 800+bhp Skyline lags (or relies on sky-high RPM and in any event delivers power in a peaky punch), and how I'd like to see a usable 800bhp in my car, as well as reading A. Bell's books on engines and forced induction lately - he's a huge detractor from using turbos on the street, and argues fairly convincingly that supercharging is the way to go (makes some other arguments about turbocharging being the most common form of forced induction due to marketing/economics instead of being the best method)...and being bored with a car that works...

How about developing a Lysholm supercharger kit for the Skyline GT-R? We could use this thread to bounce ideas around and sort out issues.

First, we'd need to select a blower. They are compact enough to fit where a topmount turbo would go, and with no turbo plumbing at all, that opens up a lot of space there. Most screwchargers are 22~25cm in width, and vary mostly in length, 30~45cm. Heat shielding the exhaust headers would be required, or at least a Good Thing.

Second, where would the drive belt come from? The front? If so, the air intake is in the rear....how about building an airbox behind the glovebox (and also behind the firewall) and have the box suck in air in the same way as the climate system does (beneath the windshield wipers), just on the passenger side. Then connect the rear of the supercharger to the box..on the hot side of the firewall. Cold air intake.

Going back to the drive belt - if the drive could be taken off the flywheel, then the screwcharger could be mounted backwards and the air intake filters could be in front as normally seen.

Screwcharger output: from the bottom...the output pipe would run near the exhaust headers going to the intercoolers, but then again, come to think of it, so do the pipes of topmount twin turbos. If we decided to throw out intercooling altogether, we could mount the screwcharger upside down and then send the air across the top of the engine like an RB25.

MAF or MAP?

The only two downsides to a screwcharger deal with cost - constant heavy parasitic power loss, and cost of the unit. But the second...well, in the GT-R game power comes at a price!

Otherwise, the unit can push enough air to more than triple the displacement of the engine, with power coming in VERY early.

Could be a lot cheaper than stroker/RB30 kits, and we could dump the FMIC.

Maybe a 2.6 liter engine simply can't drive a screwcharger at low RPM?


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

If the intercooler were to be ditched then there is not much chance of getting anywere near 800hp with a supercharged 26.
At the end of the day there is no subsitute for cubes, and since superchagers take a lot of power to drive they are commonly used on big engines with great results.

What your after is a nice flat power curve with good power down low and huge top end. It could be done with nitros controlled by the ecu and a big turbo, or with antilag but I dont think there would be much chance of a 2.6 litre engine driving a big enough supercharger to make 800hp and still have plenty of grunt down low.

If you were to supercharge, the easiest place to run the drive belt from would be the front of the engine. It wouldnt be simple tho as the effect of a belt that big running off the harmonic balancer could have adverse effects.


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

rb30r34 said:


> If the intercooler were to be ditched then there is not much chance of getting anywere near 800hp with a supercharged 26.


Correct, especially as a Lysholm SC is not as efficient as a Turbo charger, meaning more heat for the same boost, and therefore a need for a bigger IC.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

according to whipple a screwcharger is equally efficient as a turbo, the problem is in the raw horsepower required to drive the thing. basically what I'm challenging is the notion that turbos are inherently the best way and that we've been using them more out of convention,habit and cost efficiency..$5000 for a compressor doesn't look so good next to $2000 for turbos especially from nissan's point of view..but for the enthusiast it's worth looking into


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Not quite true.

The best Screw SC's are comparable with older TC's. And only over a limited speed range (the slow end). 

The modern turbo is more efficient and more importantly, has a wider efficiency island at the point where it matters.


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## MacGTR (Dec 31, 2006)

Superchargers are less efficient because of the power loss to the wheels that is used to turn the supercharger,simple. I would never use one on an engine less than 4L trying to make over 700hp but I have to say I love the supercharger on the Mini and am considering putting one on my Lupo, but the costs are huge, I'm looking at £5K bill.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Looked into this a number of time s, never managed to make myself believe it will work, so it has never been started.

S/C,ed a 33 GTS worked out pretty good, but to make big BHP from a S/C on a small displacement motor will be very hard work. Got some figures around somewhere, will try to sort them out.


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## M SKinner (Feb 19, 2007)

Positive displacement blowers are a dead end IMO..

Whipple claim 30psi is possible but take a look at a compressor map for a whipple. The PEAK efficiency is only around 55-60%! At high boost levels it drops off sharply.

Best way to combat lag is more displacement IMO. Talk to rob @ rips about VH or TB conversions


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

well, I put it out there and figured there must be some reason why it hasn't been done (like Claire's R33 is the only example I know of).

I handled lag on the drive home tonight by...revving the shit out of my engine! Did in a CL63 AMG twice in a row off the line and once running chaser (starting behind him). That third time when I just reeled him and sailed past while on boost in 3rd - no replacement for displacement eh? :chuckle:


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

Now that is my next engine project. The Merc 63 engine with a pair of decent turbo's. 

I just love that engine, one of the best modern engines in existance today. Pity it is wasted in a 2 ton tank.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Can't see it working either....Too smaller engine to produce that sort of power from a supercharger....If you could crack the twin charger setup, that would do it.

HKS made a twin charger kit a few years ago for the 4agze, It came with a electronic box to adjust the switch off point for the clutch on the supercharger, and a turbo about the size of a T04!

....But me, I would be looking at something like a RB30 (or RB33 if you had the dosh) and a couple of these Hybrid 2530's from NZ!! 750hp at all 4wheels....And shat loads of torque!!


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

no power until 6000rpm? no thanks


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

M SKinner said:


> Best way to combat lag is more displacement IMO. Talk to rob @ rips about VH or TB conversions


If someone made a VH iftting kit with a pair of plenums and manifolds for a pair of say GT-RS you'd have something pretty impressive. I'd guess that you start to see boost from 2-2,500. Could potentially weight less than the RB but would certainly pull the weight further back in the engine bay.

When I looked at the Whipple chargers they were very expensive. Several thousand pounds for just the unit. A VH would be cheaper to buy so the increased fitting costs could well balance out.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

kismetcapitan said:


> no power until 6000rpm? no thanks


I'm pretty sure that with a RB33 (700cc more) you would be knocking back to 3500-4000rpm

What you are talking about is possible....But hugly complex, just drop a V8 in as mentioned then!!


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

the problem with the VH41 and twin GT-RS turbos is the aluminum block. Can that block really take 200bhp/liter output? The VQ35DE is a very well-developed engine, but as soon as builders go for big boost, they have to sleeve the block. That gets complicated.

But ATTESA does exist for the VH41DE (JDM car, forget which model, I think Cima or President or something), so adapting it into a GT-R while retaining AWD is possible.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

From what I've seen (which isn;t that much to be honest) people can get silly outputs from those engines. I've seen boats (with these engines) with 900bhp odd quoted.

I know that the Lexus/Toyota V8s (which are very similar I understand) don't have any problems producing silly power figures.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

hmm, I'll ask around on Nissan forums, see what has been done with twin turbo VH41s. Could be an interesting swap if it doesn't add much weight on the front axle.


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## M SKinner (Feb 19, 2007)

Kismet, im doing it 

The engine itself is a fair bit lighter than an RB. Easy to move it around on the floor on your own anyway.

Power outputs in excess of 1000hp are possible. Set of forged pistons and some of the aussie power boat guys are producing that. I think more should be possible if you are a total nutter.

There was a 4wd Cima with a front diff in the sump, you need to really think about gearboxes though, as the kind of torque a 4.1 turbo motor can produce will render any conventional gearbox scrap pretty quickly!


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

you've got my attention! lighter, more displacement, minimal internal work needed?

With a V8, only one exhaust option to go with - SIDE EXIT, both sides!!!


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## arnout (Oct 29, 2003)

kismet,
last year I developped a celica 4wd with a 3s-gte running a GT40 and a mercedes eaton supercharger (the one with the magnetic clutch from the 2.3 liter 4 cylinder mercedes). The car goes very very well. It is responsive as hell and has boost in all gears under all situations. The supercharger operates from 2000 RPM to 4500 RPM the turbo from 4300 RPM to redline.
I'm currently building a 2jz-gte with a GT42r and a 3.2 mercedes supercharger (lysholm alike) also with magnetic clutch. Here are some pics:


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

perhaps adding a smaller Lysholm to an RB26 on top of a single turbo might be the ticket. I hadn't thought of it, but yeah, Mercedes has made zillions of clutch-operated superchargers...should be easy to source.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Myself and James have built a Lysholm screw type RB30, which is due to be mapped in a few weeks. The supercharger is a Kennebelle 2.8 h chosen due to its ability to support high boost applications better.

Its currently underdriven and we can produce 2.5 bar of boost at easily idle. 

Supercharger is mounted under the exhaust, it could be made to work in a 4wd skyline quite easily, but its not a cheap conversion.

Ignore the temporay coil pack, if you watch the video its now been replaced with the final solution


























Here is a video of it running


YouTube - First (public) Start-up of Supercharged RB30 - S15.3 EDC Drift Car


If you are interested in the build read the thread here:-

S15.3 Supercharged RB30 drift car - Drifting forum - Driftworks

Edit to say there are V8's in the states exceeeding 800 whp using the same supercharger.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

bloody awesome , well done such an awesome build. Big pat on the back.

I thing I would like to know after you have mapped and driven it , if you get any surge at high rpm and small throttle openings , one thing I am always worried about with big S/C installs , you may need a surge valve ( very much like a dump valve but will allow boost pressure to vent to atmosphere at small throttle openings)

Just had a closer look at the pictures I presume the surge valve is in the hard pipe from the I/C back up to the Plenum?

What management system are you using?

keep up the good work.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

kismetcapitan said:


> Going back to the drive belt - if the drive could be taken off the flywheel, then the screwcharger could be mounted backwards and the air intake filters could be in front as normally seen.?


Ours is driven from the crank using a Rips bottom pulley with drive intended for a dry sump pump



















































Charger pulley










And trigger wheel :

















[/QUOTE]



kismetcapitan said:


> Screwcharger output: from the bottom...the output pipe would run near the exhaust headers going to the intercoolers, but then again, come to think of it, so do the pipes of topmount twin turbos. If we decided to throw out intercooling altogether, we could mount the screwcharger upside down and then send the air across the top of the engine like an RB25.


Using laser cut brackets its quite easy to mount on the side of the engine like this:-








[/QUOTE]





























































kismetcapitan said:


> MAF or MAP?


Doesnt really matter, but we have gone MAP

Its also certainly not possible to run without any intercooling as we can make the intercooler hot enough that its un comfortable to toach just by blipping the engine with no load on.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

Re MAF or MAP , MAF might be better for a road car unless you can spend a lot of time on the dyno for build a very precise throttle/rpm/boost trim map , again for the part throttle high rpm engine condition.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

Abbey M/S said:


> bloody awesome , well done such an awesome build. Big pat on the back.
> 
> I thing I would like to know after you have mapped and driven it , if you get any surge at high rpm and small throttle openings , one thing I am always worried about with big S/C installs , you may need a surge valve ( very much like a dump valve but will allow boost pressure to vent to atmosphere at small throttle openings)
> 
> ...



Thankyou

You are right about the surge valve as when we 1st fired it up with the SC connected we had so much boost generated it builds exponentially until it pushes the throttle open, the engine speed increases then it hits the limiter or blows a boost pipe off.

We have cured this now by adding mappable boost control, this is as simple as a multiposition throttle valve driven by a large RC servo, which is mappable against throttle position and engine speed so we can waste some boost and avid the ON/OFF switching of a conventional recirc valve.

No its vent to atmosphere, but if you were doing a road version you would probably want to link it to pre charger.

We are using Emerald and so far are impressed as we have now had the hardware and software changed to suit the needs of the project.


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

This is so cool. Great to see something new and different from the norm. Cant wait to see the results of the mapping. Good Luck!


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## miragev (Apr 11, 2007)

david this is an absoulutley awesome build you got going there
you should have this on the projects section right from the start of the build please keep the pics coming ....:bowdown1:

on the topic of big cubes for superchargers ...i have a banzai mag where they did a piece about mx5's and a few of them had supercharger kits fitted and the kit is readiy available for the mx5 so it is possible to fit them to small displacement engines with some success


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

I am suprised at the interest TBH, I'll create a seperate build thread on here for everyone to read through and keep up with the project.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

miragev said:


> david this is an absoulutley awesome build you got going there
> you should have this on the projects section right from the start of the build please keep the pics coming ....:bowdown1:
> 
> on the topic of big cubes for superchargers ...i have a banzai mag where they did a piece about mx5's and a few of them had supercharger kits fitted and the kit is readiy available for the mx5 so it is possible to fit them to small displacement engines with some success


I don't think that the MX5 kits generate a lot of power. Supercharger kits are popular inthe states as they are very cheap bolt on systems. Adding a tubro charger requires lots more bits (exhausts etc) so a well designed supercharger kit will come in a lot cheaper. From what I remember these kits usually don;t use intercoolers so they are literally an induction kit, charger/ plenum and drive. For a very low outlay you get more power and torque everywhere and retain the N/A delivery. I also wonder if in the litigious US market a 'fool proof' kit is safer for the vendor.

When my brother was looking at them for his MX5 I seem to remember he found that for low power uplifts superchargers were favoured but once you wanted more than 200bhp people seemed to be using turbos.

VW used to make Golf and Carrados (I think even Polos!) with superchargers. They can be very attractive for OEM as they're simple/reliable.


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## David (Apr 25, 2003)

I have started a build thread with loads of pics in if anyone is interested

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/121716-screw-type-supercharged-rb30-200sx.html


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## jasaircraft (Feb 15, 2009)

Hi I know its an old thread but, has anyone considered the vortech V3? Its more compact and supposedly produces more than 700hp


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## kingsley (Aug 26, 2002)

The problem with the Vortech is it's centrifugal, so you don't get much boost at low rpm which for me defeats the point.

If I was going to supercharge I'd see if I could get an Eaton TVS. I don't know how its efficiency compares to the Lysholm but in my mind it has two advantages over the Lysholm design - (a) as there is no internal compression, there's less parasitic loss when it's being driven but bypassed and (b) the air intake isn't at the end so plumbing in the GTR engine bay would be easier.

I wouldn't want to rely purely on a supercharger to get so much power from an RB though, for reasons already mentioned in this thread.

Cheers,
Kingsley.


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