# GTR Register withdrawal from TOTB VI, an explanation.



## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Following Chris's post on the TOTB IV thread, we can confirm that the GTR Register is withdrawing from this year's TOTB. We have one fundamental issue which we have not been able to resolve with Chris and that is team selection. Since it's inception, 5 years ago, we have won the team event 3 times and had the individual champion 4 times. We have been by far the most successful team in the event. We have always had the 'privilege' of being able to select our own team and, until now, we have had no external pressures put upon this selection process.

It was decided that the team selection for 2007 would be a joint process with the organiser of the event, Chris. We believe that it is unheard of that an event organiser (of any event) has a hand in individual competitor selection within a team. Despite many weeks of negotiations, reasoning, offers and discussions, we finally reached a stalemate whereby that privilege was no longer negotiable and had been withdrawn from us. No other team which is entering or ever has entered TOTB has had such a draconian measure enforced upon them and we have unanimously decided to withdraw from the event this year.

There are others issues, such as safety, which have been discussed fruitlessly for years but our main reason for withdrawing is explained above. We would like to extend our best wishes to all those competing this year and hope that it is successful for them and above all, a safe event.


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## Alan (Jul 1, 2001)

Why would an organiser interfere with team seletion, 

it could only be to benifit himself in someway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## bkvj (Feb 13, 2006)

thats a shame


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## stuartstaples (Nov 14, 2004)

That is a terrible shame but thank you for explaining. Has Chris explained his decision or will you be able to air that on the forum? For special rules to be applied to this site/club alone doesn't seem right at all. Any further information that you can supply would be greta, if only to try and make sense of it all.

Just read another post forget the explanation, none needed


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

The MLR will win, so ther will be no point going. Not that I am anyway..


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

In response-

TOTB is sad to hear the GTROC withdrew, and have offered to let the GTROC still have their own team, with their own rep, after a breakdown in negotiations led us to this conclusion. We have not barred the GTROC or its members from competing in any way.

To clarify the issue that led to this:
1. GTROC and SOC initially asked for sole rights to a team, and for totb to exclude any other entries, which we agreed to in the best interests of joining the two forums and a common front.
2. Various team threads went awry on here, the SOC then withdrew from the joint team.
3. John publicly withdrew from the team rep position, and Peter stepped back in (we had no problem with that aspect despite Peter having said he wanted nothing to do with the team or event again).
4. TOTB were asking the GTROC and Peter to allow us to work with them to form a team, as many people contacted us to state clearly they would not enter via the GTROC or its rep, which is a shame. TOTB did not want to further these arguments and forum bickerings, so suggested we take those entries in and add them into the team with Peter/GTROC, based on performance only, not disputes etc. this offer has been refused. 
5. Due to previous threads and the team reps withdrawals etc, we didn’t have 100% confidence that the GTROC rep would be able to encourage all the top cars to enter, or bridge the divide on the forum politics etc etc. We therefore stated we would only allow a joint team approach working with us, which as stated the GTROC refused. The ONLY reason we wanted this is due to the numerous political type comments we have received asking us to intervene and ensure ANYONE could enter their skyline, as people did not have confidence in the team/rep or GTROC solely this season for their own reasons. This put us in a very awkward position of being told cars would not run with less than 2 months to the event.
6. Therefore a full "team skyline" entry will be at TOTB 6, made up of the top cars, and GTROC members are still welcome to compete or attend as part of it or otherwise. We have no problem whatsoever with the GTROC and its members. This team will be picked by many people, not ourselves and will be based on performance times /team strength only not any other issues.

This unfortunate situation could have been avoided with a little more work I’m sure. The GTROC can still have a team spot if they wish, but it would now have to be alongside another "team skyline" for the reasons above, as we have to ensure the best cars will compete, and the genuine overall intent is to do so. 
This has only been agreed in the last 2 weeks, until then we were quite happy to continue on the "one team only" option, but we could not agree to give sole choice of team back to the GTROC in light of recent events, and despite our best efforts to step back and find someone else to work with the GTROC team rep, no help was forthcoming. We haven’t had this situation vbefore with any other teams or forums, and it is a shame that various factions wont work together, even now. In previous years we have had people run with GTRs who are not part of the GTROC, and we spent 2-3months working with John and the GTROC to try to ensure a joint team was put forward of ten cars only.


We were not "interfering" in the team selection, we were asking to be allowed to put forward car entries from people on other forums etc who would not and did not want to come direct through the GTROC team rep for their own reasons, and to suggest it was for our benfit only is wrong, we have tried for months to get people to join the GTROC team entry and stop those splits.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

final point to add, we have 16 other teams involved, many of whom have joined up with "rival factions", without any problems. We have only had to get involved as the ongoing situation showed that the GTROC/SOC team situation and rep changed time and again, and left us two months from the event with people saying they would not run for the team. Beyond our control and i still think the joint team would have been best.


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## AZR-33 (Apr 4, 2007)

It's a shame this couldnt be worked out, but it is nice to see people acting like adults about the situation.


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Peter,

Before this thread goes any further, I want to thank you for all the hard work you put in to this event in earlier years.

Also Guy who similarly worked very hard to make TOTB and the GTR entry a great success.

Cheers

Hugh


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

Chris,
Considering your second paragraph above (not the second bullet point) is plainly in contradiction of your fist bulleted point, I feel it would be fair to say that you have yet again changed the goal posts to meet your own ends.

The divide between the forums and the Skyline community in the UK is being forced further apart by the political meddlings of the likes of yourself. Damned shame too.

Credit to the GTROC / GTR Register / SOC for being upright enough to withdraw with good grace. I tip my hat to you guys.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Not that I am a competitor (or even considering entering), but could someone from the club give a response to the above posts. I suppose I am relatively new and have not been privvy to SOC / GTROC politics/tensions but could someone also explain what these tensions are, just out of curiosity.
Its a shame when things happen like this but I'm sure the GTROC reps represented the interests of the club properly.

TT


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## boppa (May 31, 2006)

There are No tensions between GTROC and SOC


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

boppa said:


> There are No tensions between GTROC and SOC


I second that!


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

tarmac terror said:


> I suppose I am relatively new and have not been privvy to SOC / GTROC politics/tensions but could someone also explain what these tensions are, just out of curiosity.


Any perceived tensions between the clubs mentioned have no relevance to this thread.


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## m6beg (Apr 21, 2003)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> 6. Therefore a full "team skyline" entry will be at TOTB 6, made up of the top cars, and GTROC members are still welcome to compete or attend as part of it or otherwise. We have no problem whatsoever with the GTROC and its members. This team will be picked by many people, not ourselves and will be based on performance times /team strength only not any other issues.


If i still have the car by then Chris or my be another one.
Please put my name down on the list.
I would love to run for TEAM SKYLINE

Mick


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

At further risk of poking the fire, it's important to add that we provided TOTB with an ultimatum.

"Either we pick our own team for the GTR Register, or we do not run at all."

Unfortunately, we were not granted this right and we decided to unanimously pull out.


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## tarmac terror (Jul 16, 2003)

Sorry guys, not looking for something that isnt there. Its just that ChrisT.O.T.B pruported to it in his reply and I was just intereseted. Indeed, I didnt think there was any tension anyway and thats why I asked someone to clarify what it was (if there was any).
I've now been to 2 events where the SOC and GTROC have been present and I've found it all to be one big good-natured get together. Seems a bit naughty of ChrisT.O.T.B to allude to tensions/rifts when none exist.
At the end of the day some people have agenda's in life (not aimed at anyone, honest), some put a spin on everything and others go through life not really knowing whats going on at all. It seems a shame that an event has caused such a perceived furore and disagreement. We all have Skylines and love them, ego's should be left at the door (however, I appreciate this is the real world after all).

Just my 2p worth


Just read Cems post above and I wholeheartedly agree with the clubs position on this :thumbsup: 

TT


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## munro (Oct 3, 2006)

Sad to see a little "mixed truths" here 

Its a pity that when stating facts only facts from one side are being told here......a little bit flawed and lets just say "only letting the forum see one side of this"

From whats apparent, its pretty obvious this is a huge case of the GTR Forum here spitting the dummy !

Peter, i think it is wholeheartedly extremely disrespectful that you are trying to make people believe that this has been brought about because you claim Chris is trying to "dictate team selection"

For those of you who actually have common sense and see this for the clouded one sided argument that it is, Chris actually acted as a go between for weeks on what was becoming an argument between here and Keiths Forum.

Basically.....Peter wanted to be able to pick the team this year......this was after his "i dont want anything to do with it" attitude. 

Nobody wanted anything to do with it, bar a few members. So Keiths forum started their own list, and within a couple of days had a list of 10 cars, plus extras ready to run, no arguing, no bickering, and not having to physically "prove themselves" again like the farce of the past.

The list was pretty much huge, very high specced cars, and was then copied and pasted from that forum, onto this one, in a feeble attempt to poach some entries into what was a poor poor attempt to gain some speed on a sinking effort on here. 

Fact is, Peter again then claimed all on THAT list would be considered, and appeared to take on the list of entries "as his own"

BUT....half of the list, realising what a complete sham it was, pulled their names from the list, due to the simple fact that they dont want anything to do with peter, or his involvement in TOTB, not due to siding, but more due to the fact that Peter, you have made yourself look like a complete and utter child throughout this whole thing, you stomped your feet, said you didnt want anything to do with it, then when novody begged you to come back, you came back on your own accord, tail between legs, made an attempt to structure a team, got a few names, and were blown out of the water by another forum. 

The list was then stolen, yes stolen, pasted onto here, and claimed as your current list of entries to date, so to speak, when folk saw what you had done, they baulked at the thought of having anything to do with you, and pulled their names.

Since then, over two months have passed, NOBODY HAS ADDED their name to your list, and this shows how much people want you to have anything to do with it, nobody came forward.

In this thread, you have now insulted Chris, his conduct, and made claims against his person, event, and against him as a professional organiser of this event. You have taken what could have been a mutual withdrawal, and gone away with a little respect, and thrown that on the GTR fire you started. Not only have you insulted what was probably the one person who you had remotely in your corner, but you have acted completely and utterly disgracefully, you have brought into question Chris professionalism, and basically accused him of stopping you from having the right to put forward a team. The fact remains Peter, that you had ample opportunity to do this, you did nothing but bicker and bitch as in previous years, and it got to such an extent this year, that you made a huge and complete fool of this Forum, to which i would guess from his lack of input, that Cem is HIGHLY embarrassed to be assosciated with and most probably cringes everytime he reads posts showing your conduct on the matter. 

You have lied on here, made out the withdrawal is for reasons it really isnt, and have told a one sided story. You dont want the other Forum to have anything to with the team, and because you are not getting your way, you are taking your ball to play elsewhere. You have made blatant attempts to try and get the other forum excluded from the event, from sheer spite, and its not worked. The fact remains the other forum actually have a decent team most of which will run this year and most probably score some good points on the day. More importantly, because you are no longer involved, i would guess that everyone involved with a Skyline on the day will now have a good laugh and make a great day of it. 

You should be ashamed of the way you have acted here. Its nothing short of slanderous, If it were down to me, i wouldnt let you have anything to do with the event ever again, and i would be pretty much embarrassed to the souls of my feet to even show your face at the event. You have ripped the absolute preverbial out of the organiser and made claims against his integrity which are unfounded and untrue. You spat the dummy, for the second time now. At least have the decency to tell everyone the truth, to which Chris as above has done. 

What a terrible shame at your age you cant act with a little bit of adult conduct and mannerism in what should be at the end of it all a fun day for all to enjoy, not a battle of wills as you have made it.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Without going too much further on this thread as i feel i have now made it clear enough to those who can be bothered to read our response:
at no point have i insinuated that the SOC and GTROC have a rift or have i tried to make one. My dealings with the SOC rep have been perfectly straightforward, and good natured, they advised us the had pulled out quite some time ago without any problem.

My comments refer directly to the "other" forums and other skylineowners who desperately want to run cars but who stated quite clearly they would not run for the GTROC once it went back to them wanting sole team responsibility.

as a compromise we tried to work alongside the GTROC, to save any further forum bickerings and hassles, and i refute any comments that isnt the case, when it has quite clearly been done in private between Peter and myself, at length, and without allowing anyone else to step in. for 2 months nearly i have tried to ensure a fair compromise, and the last 2 weeks have been very awkward to say the least. the GTROC stated they didnt want totb involved in helping collate a team, and i went to great lengths to find out if a compromise could be done elsewhere, and to find another rep to work with Peter. I'd have been very happy to leave it to them at that point, in the knowledge that other skyline owners would have more confidence in the process.

I'll state it again, for the last time, the GTROC are offered a team spot to be chosen by their own rep as a way of resolving this, but we have to withhold the right to allow other skyline owners to compete, either on their own or as part of another team,by coming direct to us with forms, because the last 2-3months has quite clearly proven both we at totb and the GTROC cannot heal the rift that does exist between those certain groups on our own. 

We have had both GTROC and non club members email us PLEADING for us to step in and allow them to run without all the politics and hassle.

This option wasnt palatable to the GTROC and they have informed us of their decision, which we accept with regret. the GTROC are welcome at any time, and as previous winners of the event we are pleased to have had them compete at TOTB, which they have done from year one. 

please bear in mind this has been a very difficult period for the reps and us, but the issues that are around were not of our doing.


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## nismoman (Jul 13, 2004)

i think the fact that there can only be 10 skylines entered in a team causes major problems in it,s self,theres lots off politics involved between the 3 skyline clubs for one reason and another,but such is life people are entiteled to there own veiws and opinions,and some people seem to fuel the arguments for argument sake.every year theres major problems with team selections for one reason or another,as the saying goes yor never going to please all the people all off the time.but this year is a little different in my opinion people from all three clubs have gone out of there way to try and come to a comprimise ,but the argument realy started with TOTB,S interpritation of cars runing in various classes,which is just rediculase,but because the GTROC dared to argue it,s case most people have just got fedup of the whole TOTB issue,because(in my opinion)TOTB,S response to whole issue,the event has lost it,s way for the car enthuseast and just become a show case for motor sports companys and tuners that are there to premote them and there selfs,were the cars are a millon miles away from roed cars.i think it,s a sad conclusion to the whole event THIS IS JUST MY OPINION BASED ON WHAT LITTLE INFORMATION I HAVE


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Munro...

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/search.php?searchid=1445040 :chuckle:


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Munro,
I see you have you own agenda. Please do not propose your theories based only on your own information rather than the facts as have been expressed between the SOC, GTROC and TOTB over a period of some months. What has come to pass between the clubs and TOTB is unfortunate and your long winded post serves little to propogate a positive outcome


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

nismoman said:


> i think the fact that there can only be 10 skylines entered in a team causes major problems in it,s self,theres lots off politics involved between the 3 skyline clubs for one reason and another,but such is life people are entiteled to there own veiws and opinions,and some people seem to fuel the arguments for argument sake.every year theres major problems with team selections for one reason or another,as the saying goes yor never going to please all the people all off the time.but this year is a little different in my opinion people from all three clubs have gone out of there way to try and come to a comprimise ,but the argument realy started with TOTB,S interpritation of cars runing in various classes,which is just rediculase,but because the GTROC dared to argue it,s case most people have just got fedup of the whole TOTB issue,because(in my opinion)TOTB,S response to whole issue,the event has lost it,s way for the car enthuseast and just become a show case for motor sports companys and tuners that are there to premote them and there selfs,were the cars are a millon miles away from roed cars.i think it,s a sad conclusion to the whole event THIS IS JUST MY OPINION BASED ON WHAT LITTLE INFORMATION I HAVE


Peter and Cem have posted the GTROC position and we have posted our response and explanation. without it drifting off topic, you did however touch upon the main issue which is trying to get 3 or 4 factions together to form one team of ten cars, which hasnt worked unfortunately despite best efforts.


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## skyline69_uk (Jan 6, 2005)

"Why can't we work out our differences? Why can't we work things out? Little people, why can't we all just get along? "


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Munro said:


> you made a huge and complete fool of this Forum, to which i would guess from his lack of input, that Cem is HIGHLY embarrassed to be assosciated with and most probably cringes everytime he reads posts showing your conduct on the matter.


OK firstly let's ignore the fact that almost every single one of your posts on this forum have been antagonistic in nature, your assumption of the above is ridiculously absurd and so far off the mark I can only assume you have an ulterior motive to your post, so I'll ignore it.



chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> My comments refer directly to the "other" forums and other skylineowners who desperately want to run cars but who stated quite clearly they would not run for the GTROC once it went back to them wanting sole team responsibility.


Hi Chris,

With all respect 

This is the point we are trying to make. It has absolutely nothing to do with you. If there are inter-forum politics between the GTR Register and 'other' forums, then this is our problem to solve and for you to interfere is hugely inappropriate. 

Cem


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## NISFAN (Oct 11, 2003)

FWIW I fully support the GTROC pulling out. How can you possibly put your name behind a randomly selected team? 
With outside selection, it was always only ever going to be a 'Team Skyline', so TOTB organisers shouldn't try make out it wasn't. 
A team GTROC would be precisely that, fully chosen by the GTROC, no one else. Afterall it is a multi disciplined event, so how does an outsider make the best descisions for the club on handling/top speed/drag?

BTW nice to see TOTB trimming down on the number of 'premiership' cars to make way for the other dross. 
What team has replaced the GTROC and SOC clubs? Perhaps the KIA OC, or maybe the Fiat Panda OC?

Ten of the best........Bah!


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

NISFAN said:


> FWIW I fully support the GTROC pulling out. How can you possibly put your name behind a randomly selected team?
> With outside selection, it was always only ever going to be a 'Team Skyline', so TOTB organisers shouldn't try make out it wasn't.
> A team GTROC would be precisely that, fully chosen by the GTROC, no one else. Afterall it is a multi disciplined event, so how does an outsider make the best descisions for the club on handling/top speed/drag?
> 
> ...



your comments about other clubs are highly disrespectful to them all. you may have not noticed "other" clubs have won the event for the last 2 yrs.

ten or more top skylines will be at the event as per usual, and the team skyline name was a proposal from john and the SOC initially which we support.

at no point did anyone mention random selection. please leave out the daft comments if you dont understand whats been said all along.

for information the teams list is as per last year, plus retro fords (cossy powered).


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> OK firstly let's ignore the fact that almost every single one of your posts on this forum have been antagonistic in nature, your assumption of the above is ridiculously absurd and so far off the mark I can only assume you have an ulterior motive to your post, so I'll ignore it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



fully appreciate your point of view, however the lack of GTROC confirmed entries, plus the ongoing issues of numerous people stating their forms would only come in direct to us or not at all put us in a very difficult position, which we explained fully all along to you guys. Nothing concrete appears to have been done to try and bring together those factions under the GTROC banner, and we are 2 months from the closing date for entries. We did not opt into the ongoing politics, nor did we encourage them, i've been at great pains to ensure that, as i fully supported John and the SOC for a long time in the joint team effort and to bar other entries.
rgds


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## AnsonDobber (Jul 3, 2006)

For god sake let it rest

Does Chris really need to explain over and over something that has been done to death ?

Whatever the outcome, it looks clear that Peter wanted to organise a team, he didnt however want a "certain few" people to run, which is absurd, and very childish i am sorry. 

Hit me with a stick, edit my post, whatever, but tomorrow is a new day, this forum has withdrawn their interest, and the "other forum" have managed to source more than enough cars to make it a very very enjoyable experience to see the majority of huge BHP Skylines in the UK run for spectator enjoyment. 
(Thats what its all about !!!!!!)

Something this forum was sadly unable to accomplish for whatever reason. 

Either way, there looks to be a huge entry of potentially the greatest skyline team to date, and i am sure Chris if required will select the best ones from that list. 

Thats about it in a nutshell whether you agree or disagree. 

Its all about having fun, seeing good cars, and should have been sorted months ago. 

:flame:


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

to be fair i should say that Peter did make it clear in a recent email to me that he would accept entries regardless of club, and he also offered to work with another rep from any other forum, to get a team together. Unfortunately that didnt work out as already explained, which is a great shame imho, but we have to move on sometimes and accept things as they are.


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## DanLeMan (Sep 4, 2006)

not getting into any arguments forum politics or anything else ...

But at the end of the day.. there will be 10 fast skylines at this event.. and im sure the 10 picked for the event will be displayed across all forums for all to see...


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Chris,

Dress it up or try to explain it away in any way that you like, the fact remains that we were not at liberty to select 10 entrants to fill the Register team this year unlike every other year and every other team competing in the event. You autonomously took the decision to remove that from us which we found unacceptable, it really is that simple.


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## bobstuart (Sep 30, 2006)

Peter

Sorry if you dont like this 

but if you look at your totb thread you only had one person that put his name down.
So what was the chance of the gtroc filling 10 places with high power cars that have to be fast enough to get a place on a team,when most of the guys with the high power cars are on cowies forum.As far as i know they all wanted nothing to do with the gtroc ?

tbh i think it all went wrong when the gtroc posted that to get a place on the team you HAD TO BE A FULLY PAID MEMBER. 

very bad move poeple dont like getting told what they have to do.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

I had a list of five names but did not publish them because of all the wranglings and arguments so thought it better to keep those competing out of the politicking that was going on. In addition SkylineOwners had a list of names as did the SOC.


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## bobstuart (Sep 30, 2006)

Fuggles said:


> I had a list of five names but did not publish them because of all the wranglings and arguments so thought it better to keep those competing out of the politicking that was going on. In addition SkylineOwners had a list of names as did the SOC.


Fuggles

So you had 5 names what were up for running not 10
the SOC said that they did not want to enter with the gtroc and i dont think the SkylineOwners would enter either.

Were these 5 cars proven 9,10 or 11 second cars ?

I think because know one wanted to work with peter to sort out a joint team.

*It gave the gtroc a way out* to save having egg on its face that what is meant to be the main gtr forum cant come up with a team of 10 cars.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

bobstuart said:


> very bad move poeple dont like getting told what they have to do.


like being told to pay for trade advertising when they are trade advertising?

find it hugely sad that all this ultimately boils down to an arguement over a traders fee which was at the time a few hundred quid and ever since that time has been the source of petty point scoring and playground antics by the likes of yourself.

The only thing getting in the way of all Skyline owners getting together and putting forward a united front is a few brusied egos, you would think after all this time people would have realaised how stupid it all is.


Simon


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## bobstuart (Sep 30, 2006)

Simonh said:


> like being told to pay for trade advertising when they are trade advertising?
> 
> Simon


It had nothing to do with trade advertising.

there was a post saying that if anyone wanted to try and get a place on the team,first they had to be a fully paid up member of the gtroc.


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

*Bob;*

He's refering to the reason Keith left and formed his own site.
Not TOTB entry.

It's about time people either grow up or shut up, why fuel the fire that everyone knows exists - do you think it helps in any way?

It's a shame the GTROC couldn't get a team together for whatever reason but there will be 'the best available' team entry now which should surely please EVERYONE.

Drop the politics and sh1t stiring and concentrate on enjoying the event...


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## Racer GT-R (Nov 15, 2006)

If I'm reading between the lines correctly here, I would hazzard a guess that Keith Cowie wouldn't have wanted to enter the GTROC team, since this forum's staff decided to ban him some time ago. This is why Keith presumably started his own forum... 

Most of us know which are the fastest Skylines in the UK, so whether the GTROC has a team or not, is irrelevant. 
The fastest GT-R's will be entered, regardless of whose team they're on.

It's the first I hear of Keith's forum, but certainly intriguing!


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Any more mention of Keith on this thread and we'll delete it. It has sod all to do with anything. Please stop stirring.


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## Ludders (Feb 6, 2004)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> In response-
> The GTROC can still have a team spot if they wish, but it would now have to be alongside another "team skyline" for the reasons above, as we have to ensure the best cars will compete, and the genuine overall intent is to do so.


Am I misunderstanding something?? Chris says this club can still have a team alongside the team he picks. 

So if this club is confident of it's abilities why are we refusing to put forward a team?? Are we scared of being beaten?? 

I would be very interested to know how many members would still like to ''have a go'' versus how many people are deciding that we should not!!

I hate politics. Let's just get on with enjoying our club.
.
.
.:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: 
.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Ludders said:


> Am I misunderstanding something?? Chris says this club can still have a team alongside the team he picks.
> 
> So if this club is confident of it's abilities why are we refusing to put forward a team?? Are we scared of being beaten??
> 
> ...


Who's "we" when your name is already on another list?

_EDIT: Actually f**k it, don't even know why I'm getting involved in the politics_


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## jae (Aug 28, 2002)

*Over the last few years*

TOTB season has been a time when the GTR register devolves into the worst forms of bickering and centrism.

I have browsed the various threads about and am ashamed and disgusted, especially when I see the enthusiasm on other car forums.

Gents, I really don't care who did what, but quite frankly, what's changed from the last few years pointless whinging - which in hindsight is a gradual escalation to this year's self deletion? 

Pointing the finger elsewhere is fine, but every year it's the Skyline forums who have a spat. Not TOTB organisers, not MLR, not Subaru owners, but Skylines. F***in' disgraceful.

Yet again we demonstrate the unique ability to be nothing but selfish spoiled brats in fast cars. Gaaah. I give up.


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## AK-47 (Aug 9, 2006)

Racer GT-R said:


> If I'm reading between the lines correctly here, I would hazzard a guess that .


Look quit with the stirring already, them damn Duke boys still owe me fifty quid for a banner ad and after I stopped Uncle Jessie selling his cups and teeshirts promoting his moonshine all hell has broken loose.


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## plkettle (Feb 2, 2004)

Firstly i know that i am not an important person on this forum and that my comments will prob just get ignored, however i feel i should have a say for all the people just like me who are put off joining and paying to become a member of any of the skyline "clubs" due to all the politics involved that simply shouldn't exist and ruin it for the people who just want to enjoy their cars and get along happily....

I have to say i find it very very sad that the GTROC cant get 10 cars for a team to enter the event  
I would have presumed that being the "official GTR club" that it would have been able to get at least 10 high powered GTR's to run 

*It doesnt matter who said what in the past or exactly what brought this about*....just the fact that this is the end result and something needs to be done to improve things before it happens again


the simple fact is we cant get around the "petty differences" caused by a very small minority of members on all the forums. 

I think that the rest of the masses who come on this site regularly are ashamed and dissapointed that this has been the end result and that the "few" have spoiled it for the majority once again :GrowUp:


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## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

chaps...we all are on here because we love the Skyline GTR. And we all want it to do the best at TOTB. So whichever way, work to getting the fastest Skylines there... forget if they are SOC or GTROC or anything else. Just get the quickest Skylines.


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## Ludders (Feb 6, 2004)

Durzel said:


> Who's "we" when your name is already on another list?
> 
> _EDIT: Actually f**k it, don't even know why I'm getting involved in the politics_


We means we, this club. I am a member of this club and would like to support it. You are meant to be moderator; its stupid comments and put downs like yours that ruin it. Grow up for goodness sake.

As there was no one interested in TOTB on this forum and I would like to drive in TOTB what else could I do. Cut my nose off like all the others?

Why the hell don't WE just run a team? I am capable of taking my name off the other (only) list!


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Sorry to see the "joint" entry approach has gone this way ... I was really hoping it'd work out - and prove that we can all pull in the same direction. I just wish a quality team could be put together that can compete with the other clubs ... there shouldn't be any b1tching, there should simply be a good team spirit geared towards trying to win the team trophy back again - regardless of the cars involved and which forum they prefer to spend there time.

It's bitching like this and on other forum threads that has contributed to me not renewing my membership thus far. When you see people face-to-face everything is great, there's no b1tching, everyone gets on and all is well, but my motivation to get involved with meets and the club has dwindled significantly because of "squabbles" on this subject and many others.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Hi Daz,

We were ready for the joint entry too - we agreed to this 100%. What we categorically refused to do is allow the organisers of this event to then subsequently pick the team for us.

TO EVERYBODY ON THIS THREAD.

It's ironic that the people complaining about the bitching are in effect, bitching themselves. I've not seen any constructive ideas, only relfective arguments that have us continually going through old ground.

As far as we're concerned, this is not a problem that would have gone away if we continued to allow TOTB to choose our team for us. The fact that a splinter individual team selection process has been allowed has done nothing other than provide people with the CHOICE of entering a Skyline in a team other than the GTROC. Take this choice away, and we'd have been encouraging a joint effort. We feel this now has a negative effect and will do nothing other than exascerbate any counter-productive productivity.

Continually discussing any previous GTR Register animosity is NOT encouraged anymore on this forum.


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

Daz said:


> ...It's bitching like this and on other forum threads that has contributed to me not renewing my membership thus far.......



I am very saddened to read this Daz. 
You surely must realise this bickering only ever comes about in the run up to ToTB, and the 90% of the time is newbies from else where stirring things up.

Take this thread for example, the amount if ill/non informed people putting the worthless opinion in is unbelievable. 

There are only 4-5 people who know the whole story, but everyone is an expert and thinks they know best. 

Oh well, with ToTB out of the equation its happy days all the way.  :smokin:


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Ludders said:


> We means we, this club. I am a member of this club and would like to support it. You are meant to be moderator; its stupid comments and put downs like yours that ruin it. Grow up for goodness sake.


Eh? I've only made one comment in this thread and it was in reference to your post? How is it a put down pointing out that you've already registered elsewhere? I'm just stating a simple fact.


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Scott said:


> I am very saddened to read this Daz.
> You surely must realise this bickering only ever comes about in the run up to ToTB, and the 90% of the time is newbies from else where stirring things up.


Scott, I'll send you a PM as I'd like to adhere to Cems request regarding discussion about forum animosity, etc - as it's not really constructive to this thread.

Regarding this topic ... I just hope now that whatever happens a top drawer Skyline team can be put together that will be competitive on the day - regardless of where it comes from and who's involved.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Daz said:


> Sorry to see the "joint" entry approach has gone this way ... I was really hoping it'd work out - and prove that we can all pull in the same direction. I just wish a quality team could be put together that can compete with the other clubs ... there shouldn't be any b1tching, there should simply be a good team spirit geared towards trying to win the team trophy back again - regardless of the cars involved and which forum they prefer to spend there time.
> 
> It's bitching like this and on other forum threads that has contributed to me not renewing my membership thus far. When you see people face-to-face everything is great, there's no b1tching, everyone gets on and all is well, but my motivation to get involved with meets and the club has dwindled significantly because of "squabbles" on this subject and many others.


When people start talking about "being the best", etc politics always comes into it unfortunately. There's too many people with a vested interest in spreading disparaging information, too many people with hidden agendas and covert sponsorship deals.

It would be great if that wasn't the case, but alas that's just the way it seems to be in the Skyline world.


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## boppa (May 31, 2006)

bobstuart said:


> Fuggles
> 
> So you had 5 names what were up for running not 10
> the SOC said that they did not want to enter with the gtroc and i dont think the SkylineOwners would enter either.
> ...



Just for the record ...At NO time did SOC state here or on SOC forum that they did not want to enter with the GTROC. At the time SOC would have been proud to have entered a joint team with GTROC , it was all the politics and rule changes that led SOC to the decision to withdraw. No big deal its is only an expensive, by prior arrangement RWYB anyway


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## BigBob (Sep 7, 2003)

I actually thought it was TOTB rules that drivers had to be a "paid member" of a club which is what started half the crap in the first place and took away the choice for us to select our own team as in previous years selection was from the forum and club?

Bob


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## Ludders (Feb 6, 2004)

Durzel said:


> Eh? I've only made one comment in this thread and it was in reference to your post? How is it a put down pointing out that you've already registered elsewhere? I'm just stating a simple fact.


You have a pm


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## bobstuart (Sep 30, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> We were ready for the joint entry too - we agreed to this 100%. .


Cem

So you would have been ok working with you know who:flame:

How the hell was that going to work when you have blocked his web address from your forum.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Various people on a wide variety of forums have my email address, my phone number and the Club's address. So it would have been simple.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

bobstuart said:


> Cem
> 
> So you would have been ok working with you know who:flame:
> 
> How the hell was that going to work when you have blocked his web address from your forum.


For the record, I personally telephoned you know who and asked him to return to this forum by way of an olive branch. I'm not for grudges and you can ask my wife that 

However, my offer was flatly refused and there's not really much else I can do - it took a great deal of swallowed dignity and fall outs amongst other friends for me to do that.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

boppa said:


> Just for the record ...At NO time did SOC state here or on SOC forum that they did not want to enter with the GTROC. At the time SOC would have been proud to have entered a joint team with GTROC , it was all the politics and rule changes that led SOC to the decision to withdraw. No big deal its is only an expensive, by prior arrangement RWYB anyway


Thanks for the clarification


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## bobstuart (Sep 30, 2006)

Blow Dog said:


> For the record, I personally telephoned you know who and asked him to return to this forum by way of an olive branch. I'm not for grudges and you can ask my wife that
> 
> However, my offer was flatly refused and there's not really much else I can do - it took a great deal of swallowed dignity and fall outs amongst other friends for me to do that.


Cem

So there was no way that would have worked out with the 2 forums then pity


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

bobstuart said:


> Cem
> 
> So you would have been ok working with you know who:flame:


Lord Voldemort?

(sorry, just trying to inject some humour)

PS. I'm a nerd


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## DRAGandDRIFT (Sep 20, 2006)

I think a "team skyline" is a good idea 

After all we all love the gtr, no matter what forum were from.

so: 

If there are only 10gtrs allowed, why cant we submit our best entries?

To walk away from totb6 winners, and 6 of "team skyline" are from GTROC, has to still be a good thing, right?

We should gather a list of members cars, and specifications and what catagories the owners would like to compete in, 
Then after a week of people submitting their details, we start a poll for the different catagories (drag / Top speed / Circuit) 
We all then get a chance to pick who we think will perform the best,
These will be our members we submit to "team Skyline"


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

bobstuart said:


> Cem
> 
> So there was no way that would have worked out with the 2 forums then pity


Not sure if you're asking a question or making a statement but anyway - all of what happened with _he who shall not be named_ took place before the other forum existed. Cem went out of his way to build bridges but unfortunately the other party decided there wasn't enough room on a shared forum for his ego and that he enjoyed throwing his toys out of the pram too much to play nicely with others.

That's my understanding of it anyway - which doesn't represent the forum, or anyone else except me.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

he said she said

all a boring load of old bollocks if you ask me

tell me, are the 10 cars which are now running as team Skyline likely to win it?

way i've seen the build up to this years event is the line between street cars and drag cars has been pretty blurry.

are there any good all rounders competeting, which, like ron of recent years, has the ability to score in all 3 disciples, regardless of the leaps and bounds the evo's and scoobys have made in recent years. or are we just gonna "compete" the straight line events?

I love this club and this place, but whats done is done. we have 12 months to lick our wounds, and, if we (thats the Skyline community as a whole) DON'T win this year, we can maybe work out a way of putting the Skyline back where it belongs.

mook


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Hopefully our final comment on this is that the "team skyline" is now open to anyone, from any club or forum, and will be made up of the best cars available based on performances and spec alone, with no personal/club issues. We've arrived at this point purely as a result of an already awkward position that existed and months of discussion which couldnt be resolved to the agreement of all parties unfortunately. TOTB has only got involved late on (ie april) when it became clear that the issues did not look like being resolved in time to form a team for 2007. We had no intention of picking the team for the GTROC, we wanted to assist those people who wanted to enter but who did not feel they could do so through the GTROC rep.

there is no reason why this seasons "team skyline" entry cannot be used to build a few bridges as it will probably involve people from each of the clubs and forums under one common list anyway. People who wish to enter can now do so quite easily, those who dont wish to do so obviously will not, there is no bad feeling toward the GTROC in any way from TOTB, nor has there been.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

I think TOTB needs to decide whether it is a club event or just an event that wants to run the fastest of each marque. Currently you have a couple of teams that are just generic, then you have a couple that are club orientated. It's a mishmash and really one or the other should be decided on so it is the same for all. Do the selection yourselves of the ten fastest of each type if that is what you are aiming for? 

In the meantime all the clubs that supported the event when it was new no longer participate as clubs. I think this is a mistake - a significant amount of people came to support their club not just a marque, it's a tribal thing. 

My feeling is a decision should be made over whether this is this a club orientated event or a marque orientated event?
T


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

tonigmr2 said:


> My feeling is a decision should be made over whether this is this a club orientated event or a marque orientated event?
> T


It's neither Toni...


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Bitter*



bobstuart said:


> Peter
> 
> please try and stop being so bitter or can you not help yourself.


HAHAHAHAHA,

Thats the funniest thing I heard today, thanks for the smile on my face.

There is a pot and a kettle here somewhere, one of them is black.

The Register and GTROC is where its at, simple. If it isnt and everywhere else is so good, why you posting here or looking/reading just like all the others to have wandered away to ''better things'' yet come back to sniff around.

Peter's done more on here and the for the club than most, I think that Peter and the Register have patience of saints to tolerate such negative outbursts on thier efforts.

My view is simple, join the club first prior to having an opinion on how it should be run. If you are not a member, who cares what you think, its none of your business.


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## cong (Nov 22, 2006)

so is there gonna be a team skyline? 
sorry but can i put some input? i use to be from the scoobynet forum and i havnt seen this much bickering since my primary school days....
so why dont we just get all the cars to enter then pick 10 from the best...doesnt mattar what forum there from, what does mattar is that we choose the 10 best...

well thats what they did on scoobynet......


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

cong said:


> so why dont we just get all the cars to enter then pick 10 from the best...doesnt mattar what forum there from, what does mattar is that we choose the 10 best...
> 
> well thats what they did on scoobynet......


This is the dichotomy I am trying to tease out. What if some great scoobys who were the fastest out but who were not on scoobynet for whatever reason wanted to enter? How happy would scoobynet feel with that?

It comes down to whether it is a club orientated event or just the ten fastest again surely, and I agree with Peter at the moment it is neither.
T


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Andy Barnes said:


> The Register and GTROC is where its at, simple. If it isnt and everywhere else is so good, why you posting here or looking/reading just like all the others to have wandered away to ''better things'' yet come back to sniff around.


I think this is what annoys the fcuk out of me more than anything else. We get criticised for entering into forum politics, forum bickering, etc. and we have our team selection process taken away from us and why? Because all these fcuking muppets (puppets is probably a better description) come on here and create a situation. How many of these muppets actually have competitive cars or even own a Skyline, what have they ever done for the Skyline world apart from creating divisive arguments and dissent everywhere they go in some (as it transpires, not so) pathetic attempt to promote their own interests?

We're all tarred with same brush and Chris acts but not in a way that might heal some old wounds, in some attempt to unite the Skyline world, no he actually increases divisions by creating alternative routes for drivers to enter the competition. During our negotiations I offered to withdraw from the selection process and I offered to work with *anybody* from any other forum to create a strong team all to no avail. I get criticised for re-entering the TOTB arena as I'd said that I wouldn't enter again and I voiced some concerns I had about the event, so fcuking what? If there's anybody out there who thinks it's a perfect event, you need to get out a lot more but that's not the issue, I was never going to run again but felt that I could assist the Register with the team this year and probably could have but for those tiny brained morons that lurk out there.

As Cem has already mentioned, conciliation, much like love making, takes two consenting parties, we have fruitlessly attempted to take the adult way forward but it fell on deaf ears but we've still ended up getting fcuked...


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## cong (Nov 22, 2006)

tonigmr2 said:


> This is the dichotomy I am trying to tease out. What if some great scoobys who were the fastest out but who were not on scoobynet for whatever reason wanted to enter? How happy would scoobynet feel with that?
> 
> It comes down to whether it is a club orientated event or just the ten fastest again surely, and I agree with Peter at the moment it is neither.
> T



actually there is also 2 forums, scoobynet and sidc, but both are more then happy to work together to get the best "team" see bbs.scoobynet.co.uk and Welcome to the SIDC :: The Subaru Impreza Drivers Club :: SIDC , they do a scoobyshoot out where the best scoobys then go and battle it out....after that the best of that lot then go foward to totb. cant be any easier then that? maybe chris from totb should oraganise somthing along the same lines so they could be the 3rd party to help............

sorry if its been done already, im not quite upto date on whats happening, just remove this post/ edit if im talking sh1t


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Hi Cong.

We suggested exactly that to Chris. That one combined team be entered and in fact the SOC agreed and threw that hat in the ring with us. Just a shame then that having agreed he then opened another door for a separate Skyline team. Rather than solving the problem of people not agreeing and forcing them to work together Chris actually made the situation a whole lot worse and then sort to resolving it by taking control of selection himself! If every time someone complains you capitulate its no wonder it ends in a mess. Shame, real great shame.


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Is part of the issue that such discussions are had in the public realm, would we have been better off in this instance keeping the TOTB discussion in the club area of the forum so as to prevent detractors from having a pop at us?

or would that be another reason to level complaint at the club?

Simon


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

No Simon, it's not, TOTB has always been about the Register not just the GTROC...


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

ah right.

but then why the inital requirement to be a club member then this year?

oh and for the record I think it should be a club only thing, but then I've never been to TOTB, never expect to go to TOTB, wouldn't buy the DVD's of TOTB, I just get annoyed by the constant sniping from the detractors........


Simon


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Yes it was Simon but I think that was recognised as being a mistake and was fairly quickly withdrawn by John.


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

I think it was decided along with the SOC, that competitors should be a member of one or the other clubs.

But it was retracted a few days later due to complaints. 

In the mean time, a few of the 'complainers' agreed to join.


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

The Car enthusiast community as a whole thrives on clubs bringing people together, and those clubs, in turn, generate huge interest and admission at meetings like Japshow, JAE, Bolney and of course TOTB

its not entirely unreasonable to suggest that club membership should be a requirement, bearing in mind the GTR register and Skyline owners (in which ever guide is most recognised) are THE Skyline forums in this country.

If people don't recognise that, then perhaps they don't deserve to take part in events which have been made into a success by the very clubs which they now disregard?

mook


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## DanLeMan (Sep 4, 2006)

gonna put my ten pence worth in this now.....

there are people out there with very fast skylines in the UK.. and a re not neccesarily a member of a Skyline club.. or even use a computer to come on here...

TOTB.... = ten of the best.... which is ten of the best marque not 10 of the best in any particular club....

I think started the argument on the membership issue....

after all its the owners of the cars that have all the risks.. why should they spend all the money on their cars risk spending more after the event. pay for entree to the event and find they have to pay for membership to the particular club they are running for...

which reverts back to my first paragraph...

so if the skyline team win GTROC have all the glory but in effect they received payment at the same time..

hence why i think it was then opened up ( unofficialy ) that you didnt have to be a paid member....

I put my name down on the list and i received a pm 4 weeks later asking if i was still interested...

My car has still yet to be proved for this event and I will be giving this my best shot.. I have contacted Chris directly regarding totb.. 

my car will be mapped by Abbey week commencing 21st of this month and shortly after this I will be taking it on the strip..

why dont we all end this here and start looking at cars that could represent the skyline team.. 

make a new thread and put some cars and names forward.. 

end of the day TOTB is organised by chris... give the bloke a break...


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

DanLeMan said:


> end of the day TOTB is organised by chris... give the bloke a break...


and now so is the Skyline Team!


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

a good point was mentioned earlier?

Are there any skyline hoping to do well 'ok' againts the impreza's and more so Evo's on the sprint track?

How do the points work? Does the eventual overall winner normally do well on all three events?

Was 'is' (whatever) the team being organised to inculde say 7 straight line (drag/top speed) cars and 3 cars that actually handle? How did dave do on the handling last year? (think he entered)


I think a side event should be organised.... 10 of the rest.... LOL


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> and now so is the Skyline Team!



give it a rest john, you are getting childish now with those type comments. at no point have i ever said i will pick the GTROC or skyline team personally. After you threw your toys out and withdrew as rep, and after people said they would not enter thro the GTROC if they had to pay, and finally after people emailed me to say they could not and would not run with Peter as team rep, i offered to step in and work with Peter to allow those people to send in forms, to totb, to be considered as part of an overall team.

please dont continue to spin the facts.

i'll post shortly a clarification and a genuine offer to the GTROC to see if your claims of wanting to unite the skyline world do stand up.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

tonigmr2 said:


> This is the dichotomy I am trying to tease out. What if some great scoobys who were the fastest out but who were not on scoobynet for whatever reason wanted to enter? How happy would scoobynet feel with that?
> 
> It comes down to whether it is a club orientated event or just the ten fastest again surely, and I agree with Peter at the moment it is neither.
> T


Hi
just to correct something within the post which isnt right, the original totb did not have a team contest, it was introduced for totb2. all of the original teams that took part are still coming, along with a fair few new ones.

The team competition is open to clubs or groups, and we work with a few forum teams like 22b.com who combine the team selection with scoobynet and also individuals to form a team. we have no problems with them doing so and work with their reps on a very good basis. the team competition runs alongside the individual, its very clear how it works. we have 16 other team reps who will put forward teams, some with 5 cars only, some with ten. many of the teams want more places, hence this years push to combine a unified "team skyline" which has been the aim all along.

TOTB absolutely refute the claims from Peter and John that we have tried to split the divide further, as we have explained early in the thread we have gone along with the GTROC proposals to do a joint team and to exclude non club members, which is why we are where we sit now. we went with their proposal and it didnt work, and we tried to suggest a way around the forum divide with the "other" forum, which didnt work because of other peoples refusal to work with Peter.


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## Snowfiend (Jul 11, 2006)

How fecking glad am I that TOTB is on the same day as the Bruntingthorpe Childrens Charity event !

It will be nice to be part of something good that's raising money for sick Children rather be part of this he said, she said, knife in the back bull$hit !!!


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

*Statement on "team Skyline"*

right, as it was getting lost early in the thread i'll re-iterate the official position and also make a very clear and genuine offer to the GTROC "members" and club officials. 

There will be a team Skyline entry at this years event. it WILL be made up of cars from all over the skyline world, ie "other" forum members, SOC members, GTROC members, non gtroc members, its open to all. TOTB have no intention of picking it.

In the genuine spirit of unifying the various factions and after discussion today with a few people, I'd like to offer the GTROC mods and reps a way forward to prevent the ongoing bickering and bitterness. John and Peter have been at pains today to make it clear they do not want any more inter club/inter forum problems and bickering, neither does TOTB want to contribute to those, it was never the intention as we have made clear. 

Therefore why dont the GTROC put forward the 5 or so club member names that John mentioned into the melting pot for the team skyline entry, and suggest a new rep/reps to help form a selection comittee with other people (trusted names in the skyline world) to ensure the BEST team is selected, regardless of club/forum/other aligiences?

To show this isnt an empty offer TOTB will happily step back from any involvement in the team, which we didnt want/need to do in the first place. 
Its been made clear to us that given a new GTROC team rep and with no issues involved ie. having to pay £45 to join the GTROC to be allowed to enter, then other people will happily run for "team skyline" in the spirit of the best team possible. It wont be a single club team, it will be an overall team.

I should make it clear that the team skyline does not have to involve keith's car, as a Pro-drag entry its not included in ANY team, along with Tims Duke car, which is already agreed happily with those owners.

the "team skyline" has already got 11 or so names suggested on other forums, plus the 5 names john fuggles has got, this could provide an excellent base to choose the best cars from. by all means include the SOC cars and names if required. 

Why continue to make out that a divide is being pushed for, its not by anyone. 

Please take this in the spirit of how it is intended, and lets move forward.
rgds
chris


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> after people said they would not enter thro the GTROC if they had to pay.


we accepted this error and changed it almost immediately




chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> after people emailed me to say they could not and would not run with Peter as team rep, i offered to step in and work with Peter to allow those people to send in forms, to totb, to be considered as part of an overall team.


only after already giving them a green light to enter a separate team. Much to the changrin I might add of the SOC who had foregone their entry to work as part of a team, only to see that allowance reappear elsewhere



chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> please dont continue to spin the facts.


We're not!



chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> ..... and no issues involved with having to pay £45 to join the GTROC.


This requirement was withdrawn months ago!


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

I hope my post will be allowed to be discussed properly and sensibly without people spoiling it.


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## phat_gadgy (Jan 23, 2005)

Is this going to keep going around and around ? Lets just get a team entered and see if we can win the thing.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> we accepted this error and changed it almost immediately
> 
> 
> 
> ...




john- please stop trying to continue the bickering. i did not give the green light for another team until after the soc withdrew, and i tried to get the other team to work with you guys by coming thro me, as they would not deal with you or peter.

anyway, my last post sums it up. you should if you really want to unite the factions please move forward and lets get a genuine "team skyline"
rgds


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

*PLEASE CAN THE GTROC CLUB REP USE THIS POST*

right, as it was getting lost early in the thread i'll re-iterate the official position and also make a very clear and genuine offer to the GTROC "members" and club officials. 

There will be a team Skyline entry at this years event. it WILL be made up of cars from all over the skyline world, ie "other" forum members, SOC members, GTROC members, non gtroc members, its open to all. TOTB have no intention of picking it.

In the genuine spirit of unifying the various factions and after discussion today with a few people, I'd like to offer the GTROC mods and reps a way forward to prevent the ongoing bickering and bitterness. John and Peter have been at pains today to make it clear they do not want any more inter club/inter forum problems and bickering, neither does TOTB want to contribute to those, it was never the intention as we have made clear. 

Therefore why dont the GTROC put forward the 5 or so club member names that John mentioned into the melting pot for the team skyline entry, and suggest a new rep/reps to help form a selection comittee with other people (trusted names in the skyline world) to ensure the BEST team is selected, regardless of club/forum/other aligiences?

To show this isnt an empty offer TOTB will happily step back from any involvement in the team, which we didnt want/need to do in the first place. 
Its been made clear to us that given a new GTROC team rep and with no issues involved ie. having to pay £45 to join the GTROC to be allowed to enter, then other people will happily run for "team skyline" in the spirit of the best team possible. It wont be a single club team, it will be an overall team.

I should make it clear that the team skyline does not have to involve keith's car, as a Pro-drag entry its not included in ANY team, along with Tims Duke car, which is already agreed happily with those owners.

the "team skyline" has already got 11 or so names suggested on other forums, plus the 5 names john fuggles has got, this could provide an excellent base to choose the best cars from. by all means include the SOC cars and names if required. 

Why continue to make out that a divide is being pushed for, its not by anyone. 

Please take this in the spirit of how it is intended, and lets move forward.
rgds
chris


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

I do want to unite the factions but some facts are as follows:
1) we withdrew the membership requirement
2) you engaged others directly and let them start a team sheet whilst still talking to us about a single team

Now, I've ALWAYS been in favour of a single team. Heck! It was me that rang you LAST YEAR to talk about this!!!!!!


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

to add, that with 15 or 16 cars, a very strong ten car field can be made, with reserves to cover the breakages and drop outs that always happen.

there is a dedicated totb qualifying session at Fast Fest at Pod coming up, if thats of use, and numerous other rwyb dates and trackdays etc for people to check out the cars and specs.

Time to move on and work together, the few issues that were preventing people having confidence in getting a fair crack at getting in the team dont have to stay, and the GTROC membership point has been removed already as john has stated.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Fuggles said:


> I do want to unite the factions but some facts are as follows:
> 1) we withdrew the membership requirement
> 2) you engaged others directly and let them start a team sheet whilst still talking to us about a single team
> 
> Now, I've ALWAYS been in favour of a single team. Heck! It was me that rang you LAST YEAR to talk about this!!!!!!


john- i disagree entirely with your ongoing argument about starting a seperate team first. 

i have also acknowledged already that the "team skyline" was the original suggestion from you and the SOC, and i have continued to use the team skyline name throughout. 

can you guys please post up the team names you had, and consider the offer to allow you to propose a new rep/pair of reps even to assist in a joint team from all factions.
thanks


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> ...the few issues that were preventing people having confidence in getting a fair crack at getting in the team dont have to stay...


FPMSL, talk about a long winded way of avoiding my name Chris! :chuckle: Why didn't you take me up on my offer of stepping aside weeks ago when I suggested it? 

So if I get this right, not only have we had our team entry withdrawn (I know that technically we withdrew but you'd effectively made that decision for us already), you're now dictating who should be involved in our team selection process or rather who shouldn't, that right?


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Peter said:


> FPMSL, talk about a long winded way of avoiding my name Chris! :chuckle: Why didn't you take me up on my offer of stepping aside weeks ago when I suggested it?
> 
> So if I get this right, not only have we had our team entry withdrawn (I know that technically we withdrew but you'd effectively made that decision for us already), you're now dictating who should be involved in our team selection process or rather who shouldn't, that right?




peter- please give it a rest. i'm saying that the GTROC can be a part of a common team as you claim to want, and to end the arguing. 

lets move on, i am not dictating your rep, other people have made it clear what the actual issues were, its not personal from me. you wihdrew once before, and came back.

i didnt think you should have to step down back then as i thought in all honesty that the GTROC would see that people would enter albeit via sending the forms direct to totb if they didnt want to work with you. I feel TOTB were put in this awkward position by the existing situation, its not of our doing.

I have offered to get out of the way and have nothing to do with the team also
rgds


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

There go the goal posts again, just like I mentioned earlier....


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

JasonO said:


> There go the goal posts again, just like I mentioned earlier....


jason
does the GTROC want to move forward genuinely or not?
do you personally want to continue the forum bickerings?

or should we keep on forever like this?


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

I get the impression, among with many others, that the GTROC members should be allowed to have their say, rather than certain forum mods etc.

a genuine way forward is available, i cant personally say it will cure all the issues that individuals have, but its a way forward that might help.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Chris,

We ALL want to move on from this. But much of the probelm has been your meddling in the whole situation. In 2006 we suggested a combined team and you have ping-ponged between one team and another instead of sticking to what was agreed months ago. had you stuck to the "One Team" principle much of this would never have happened. We are all guilty of this mess - not just this forum but all and many people within it. Perhaps for once you should accept your part in this travesty!


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

This is going nowhere fast.

Can't everyone just concentrate on getting a team together? .. the event isn't THAT far away and there is STILL no team. 

Start a new thread, put all the names on it from each of the forums and then find a way of picking the top 10 and have 5+ strong reserves.

The bickering can go on forever and it's getting the "team" nowhere at all. It's clear that the differing opinions are not going to be resolved so save it for another day and get on with getting a team sorted out.

It's like a sodding school playground around here sometimes.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

in the interests of allowing a proper evaluation by the GTROC members of the offer to move on, i will leave thread for a while. Ive discussed it with people on other forums tonight as a way forward and there is no reason why it couldnt work given genuine will to do so


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## DanLeMan (Sep 4, 2006)

FFS.........


admins moderators etc etc.. if you respect the skyline image that much why dont you drop all this shit and start thinking about the cars instead of the status of the club..

sorry but thats how i see it...

throughout this thread you have blatently ignored the fact of the boards existence.. this is about the Skyline marque.. and the owners of the such cars..


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> jason
> do you personally want to continue the forum bickerings?


Don't be insulting Chris, I'm not bickering, I'm merely stating my opinion.



chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> I get the impression, among with many others, that the GTROC members should be allowed to have their say, rather than certain forum mods etc.


No-one is stopping anyone from having their say here, apart from you.

Which certain forum mods would you rather didn't have an opinion ?


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Chris,

I get the feeling we're being made out to be the evil ones here.
*
Can you confirm (in as few words as possible) that you removed form us entirely the ability to pick our own team? * 

People need to know the exact reason why we pulled out and I'm not prepared to allow the GTR Register to become a scapegoat for this fiasco, regardless of the amount of spin anybody places upon it.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Does all this boil down to a certain person not running in a unified Skyline team ,regardless of who wont or will eat humble pie on either side .Just trying to work ot why this has gone to sh1t this year


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> Chris,
> 
> I get the feeling we're being made out to be the evil ones here.
> *
> ...


I'm certainly not trying to do anything other than allow the GTROC and members to be a part of a "Team skyline" if they wish to. I cant speak for anyone else, nor am i willing to shorten the story if an explanation is reqd.

you pulled out in the main because you didnt accept me wanting to work with Peter to form a team, which was proposed in april by me to help resolve the issue that had come up at that time (with regard to people wanting to enter from other forums but not thro GTROC/rep direct). You saw it as an intrusion, which it wasnt intended to be, i have no want/need to control the GTROC, all i want is a strong skyline team at the event, like most people.

Equally i was placed in a position where most of the people who had expressed a firm interest in entering after the first round of team arguments were saying they would withdraw their entry if it had to go thro your team /rep alone. not a nice position to be in for you or us.

We faced the position of having nil skyline entries with 2 months left till closing date, and no end in sight to the team problems, hence the proposal. This was also in light of the previous team gtr thread which went awol and where the rep resigned, rather than it being "knee jerk" etc on our behalf as been sugested. we havent been in this bad a position with any other club or group entry before.

when i offered to act as a "go-between" to assist Peter in forming a team, the GTROC also hadnt listed any entrants for a couple of months, and i was aware that at least 11 cars (incl gtroc members) were now up on the other forum as wanting to run, many of them had already started mailing us direct. 

I advised you guys that people (incl GTROC members) had thus emailed me privately to ask if they could enter, some wanted to do so without coming through your rep, and to avoid the "politics".

I suggested i take those entries direct, and work with Peter to add them to his entries, to form the team, but based on performance only. 

AT no point did i ever state i would pick the team soley for you. I merely asked to be allowed to liaise with those people who wanted to enter from other forums/groups.

in previous years some of those people who did not want to run as part of the GTROC team ended up running as invites, or for other teams, which in effect took points away from the GTR team effort. 

We agreed with the ethic of a "team skyline". 2 weeks ago approx we went with Peters suggestion that another alternative rep be found to work with him rather than me having to get involved, and i tried my best to get someone to do so to no avail.

this left you and us at deadlock, which you responded to by withdrawing from the event. 


Other parties are willing to work with the gtroc as part of this years "team skyline" as i've posted, and i think its a fair proposal that "might" move this on and "Might" get the various forums together in one team.


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

stealth said:


> Does all this boil down to a certain person not running in a unified Skyline team ,regardless of who wont or will eat humble pie on either side .Just trying to work ot why this has gone to sh1t this year


i dont know if you are meaning keith? but i made pains to explain in my post that his car and tims havent been part of this discussion at any point. they are in our pro-drag event, and not actually part of the team argument at all. 
and i'm not trying to stir cr*p up by mentioning names here, incase anyone thinks so.


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> Can you confirm (in as few words as possible) .................


that was never gonna work was it? :chuckle: :chuckle:


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

I agree with Daz and Danleman (and many others)

All say pretty much the same thing soooooooooooo much bickering from the 'organisers' with no real results. :GrowUp: 

As far as a humble ordanary member ( who cant spell) is concerned it has gone from a interesting/important thread to a personal arguement.
To the main culprits : Why dont you all try reading the complete thread from start to finish in one go

The more times you post the sillier it gets.

I may not know much about TOTB but I do know this

YOU WILL NEVER FIND A SOLUTION WHILST THIS THREAD IS OPEN BECAUSE YOU ARE ALL STILL TRYING TO WIN THE ARGUEMENT AND NOT ACTUALLY SOLVE THE PROBLEM

This is my last and only post on this matter. 

I really do hope sense prevails .


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> An essay


I think the irony of your reply is lost on you


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

I think there is a lot of growing up to be done irrespective of who is right or wrong!

All this is doing is dragging it out and prolonging the agony.

We've read both sides of the 'arguement' now, so can it either be put to bed or sorted out like adults...


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## chrisT.O.T.B. (Feb 8, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> I think the irony of your reply is lost on you


unfortunately yours and johns replies sum up the dictatorial and sniping manner of reply thats all too typical from the forum mods and owner.

i'll make this my last post on this for the benefit of the GTROC members-

the invite will remain open for GTROC and its members to compete as part of 
"Team skyline", which will be picked on performance and spec only, with no reference to any issues as to which club/group or forum the owner supports. TOTB will not select the team itself but work with well known and trusted names in the skyline field to ensure the best team is picked.
Anyone interested can drop us a line or pm.

thanks


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> unfortunately yours and johns replies sum up the dictatorial and sniping manner of reply thats all too typical from the forum mods and owner.
> 
> i'll make this my last post on this for the benefit of the GTROC members-
> 
> ...


So in other words the answer to "Can you confirm (in as few words as possible) that you removed form us entirely the ability to pick our own team?" is "Yes I have".

No disrespect meant but since when it is your business to get involved in team selection? By taking *any* stance on it you are showing bias toward/against groups, and it's not your place to get involved quite frankly. Can you not see how inappropriate it is to get involved in team selection as the organiser for the event?

Whether there ended up being 0, 10 or 100 Skylines registered at the event is really not your lookout is it so long as it fits within the rules & regulations regarding team applications that apply to _everyone_? Why are you getting involved as a self-proclaimed mediator when there was no dispute (certainly between GTROC and SOC) to begin with? You seem resolutely unable or unwilling to appreciate that you, as an impartial organiser, has no place getting involved in team selection _whatsoever_.

All you've managed to do is stir up politics and bring old agendas back to the fore where it was totally unneeded. GTROC and SOC have maintained a good accordance with eachother which has been totally undermined by your actions. 

I have to ask, as an outsider (thank God) to the competition, what is _your_ agenda? If I was a betting man I would have to guess that you consider certain individuals to be more or less likely to translate into extra pound coins in your backpocket, regardless of how detrimental their actions have been to the community. I can think of absolutely no other reason at all why you would personally involve yourself in something which - by all expectations of an event organiser - are not your concern or responsibility.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> unfortunately yours and johns replies sum up the dictatorial and sniping manner of reply thats all too typical from the forum mods and owner.
> 
> i'll make this my last post on this for the benefit of the GTROC members-
> 
> ...


Chris - I asked for a simple answer, as always, you replied with an essay which does nothing other than dress up your answer in any way you see fit at the time and I feel nothing other than confusion when reading it. In fact, I've forgotten the question


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

chrisT.O.T.B. said:


> - Probably everything -


You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round
You spin me right round, baby
Right round like a record, baby
Right round round round

With apologies to Pete Burns.

Cem, this is going nowhere suggest you lock it out and bury it all in a deep dark faraway corner where hopefully the light of day will never shine again.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

ATCO said:


> You spin me right round, baby
> Right round like a record, baby
> Right round round round
> You spin me right round, baby
> ...


Normally I hate it when I'm asked to close a thread, but in this instance, I think you're right


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