# Cold Feet?!



## ToroKuro (Jun 23, 2008)

Hi All, my dealer is chasing me for my signed order form. I haven’t returned it yet as I am considering cancelling for two reasons (I know these are exhausted topics!):

1. Market conditions – cars are not selling now and I believe it will get worse. I can’t help thinking that by the time I receive my order (Q1 2010); second-hand examples will be 5-10k cheaper, possibly more.

2. Running costs – I understand a high performance car will be expensive to run – higher petrol, insurance, tax and servicing costs are expected. But I am more and more worried when reading the latest speculation (and first-hand experience) about servicing schedules, non-covered parts replacement, etc. One of the biggest attractions of the GT-R was the super-car level of performance without the super-car level of maintenance costs. Should I now forget this and concede it will be as expensive to run as a Lambo or Ferrari?

So I am currently thinking (point 1 being what I am more concerned about), that I could buy a second-hand 997 turbo in Q1 2010 for the same money or less (currently prices starting at mid-60s), which has already absorbed 3 years+ and 40-50% depreciation.

I do not want to start a discussion on the merits of each car (I love them both) but I wanted to know whether anyone is having similar thoughts and if anyone has further advice on the running costs, servicing schedule, or even if there are any ex/current turbo owners moving to the GT-R?!!

Many thanks, Charlie :thumbsup:


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

if money or market conditions are an issue in any way, do not buy a brand new car, GT-R or porsche. it's that simple.


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## ToroKuro (Jun 23, 2008)

One vote for second-hand 997 turbo then.

Re: maintenance / servicing costs, have you found them to be significantly higher than expected?


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## nidge (Jun 3, 2008)

I take it at this stage you have not paid a deposit? It would be interesting to know if the dealer has a replacement should you not move ahead with your purchase? I am sure that you are not the only one with cold feet but i think that the low sales volumes of the Nissan will give it a very good chance of holding its value. good luck whatever your choice


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## Bodi (Dec 23, 2007)

Is it really that important what the car could be worth in a few years time. It's never going to be an investment - they never are.


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## jagseven (Sep 2, 2008)

I have also just had my order form letter - much sooner than expected, about 1 month after I paid my deposit. As I understand it, signing the order form makes the deposit non-refundable and my car has a 2010 Q3 delivery date. So that's 2 years when I will be committed to buy or lose £3.5k which seems very one sided in favour of the dealer given they will have incurred no costs if I cancel in the next 18 months or so.

I do wonder if the order form has come sooner than expected because the dealer wants to to sure it can keep the £3.5k deposit no doubt to pay wages at a time when car sales are at an all time low....

I still want a GTR but given the current state of world markets I can't help thinking there may be some other attractive options next year including the chance to get a car sooner from someone who is "forced" to take delivery but needs to sell. And lets face it, in 2 years time the wow factor of the GTR will be much less than it is now so prices will soften. On the other hand it's only money, it's an amazing car and you only live once etc etc

Time for some serious thinking.


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## ToroKuro (Jun 23, 2008)

jagseven - my thoughts exactly. I'm in such a quandary as I love the car to bits (esp. after driving it at Silverstone). In fact, I need to speak to my dealer about whether there are any charges payable for the Race Academy (if I decide to cancel).

On the other hand, as you say, you only live once, etc. (this is what I keep telling myself).


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

other options not that great either.

wouldn't want to invest in property...... or keep cash in the bank

so buy the car!

You wouldn't want a 911 because you'll get pasted at the traffic lights by all the GTR drivers getting to grips with their latest transmission assembly!

:smokin:


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## nidge (Jun 3, 2008)

ToroKuro said:


> jagseven - my thoughts exactly. I'm in such a quandary as I love the car to bits (esp. after driving it at Silverstone). In fact, I need to speak to my dealer about whether there are any charges payable for the Race Academy (if I decide to cancel).
> 
> On the other hand, as you say, you only live once, etc. (this is what I keep telling myself).


I would suspect that with the current lack of information-feedback from Nissan coupled with the published powertrain problems you may have grounds to get your money back, especially as Nissan would not want further bad press.


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## prashan (Aug 16, 2008)

From what I'm hearing, we should start seeing improvements in the economy at the beginning of 2010 which would actually mean all of us getting a 2010 car will be well placed to get one as demand starts to increase again....fingers crossed that by Christmas 2010, we get back to some form of normality.....the GTR will still be in demand through 2009 as there will always be a community out there who are keen to get their hands on one.....roll on Summer 2010.....


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

ToroKuro said:


> One vote for second-hand 997 turbo then.
> 
> Re: maintenance / servicing costs, have you found them to be significantly higher than expected?


only the fuel costs are higher than i expected. everything else is published.

as to the economy, there will be some very distressed sellers out there. you'll be able to pick up a gt-r at auctions etc almost immediately they hit your shores. credit crunch = no car loans available.


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## paulc (Mar 5, 2008)

I think Torohuro has a valid point here. 
Some of the difficulty here is that there will be some people who have no issues with money/finance and the GTR is another toy. There will be others who really cant afford it, but just want to have the next big thing, and then there are those like me who can afford it if they sacrifice the odd thing here and there but really would be pissed off if they lost alot of money on the car just like someone would be if the value of their shares dropped or a deal fell through.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

paulc said:


> but really would be pissed off if they lost alot of money on the car just like someone would be if the value of their shares dropped or a deal fell through.


But there is a big difference. Cars are expected to lose money over time, wheras shares are expected to gain in value.

Anyone not expecting to lose significant money on new cars, is misguided.

There are of course exceptions for certain models and some temporary periods of value retention for new models in demand, but these are almost always temporary.


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

buy low sell high. you're not at the low yet. i just saw in hk you can pick up someone's GT-R for just the HP price... he's written off the rest but needs to clear the HP... just a sign of things to come. some people will do 50/50 on this car... imagine getting a 50% discount. if i were you i'd cancel my deposit and wait for distressed offers in the first month of delivery...


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## GTRok (Apr 3, 2008)

ToroKuro said:


> So I am currently thinking (point 1 being what I am more concerned about), that I could buy a second-hand 997 turbo in Q1 2010 for the same money or less (currently prices starting at mid-60s), which has already absorbed 3 years+ and 40-50% depreciation.


Going from an friends recent experience the losses after a couple of years or so on a 3+ year old turbo will probably be similar to what you would loose on a new GTR over the same period, plus the turbo is bound to need something spending on it ( even if it's just consumables) and will probably be out of warranty as against a brand new superior car which gives you a little bit of financial breathing space (relatively speaking) with a warranty.

Quite agree with paulc, everyone has financial limits,it's just realizing where they are and staying within them. No one wants to loose a lot of money.

Credit crunch or not, I think there will always be money available to borrow.It's just how much you're prepared to pay for it.


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## ToroKuro (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks vm for the comments guys.

paulc - Quite agree... I'm in the same boat - I can afford it comfortably if I sacrifice the odd thing, but the expectation has changed from running a car for maybe a year with relatively low depreciation to losing money on the car as soon as you take delivery, due to a change in market conditions. Hence I believe anyone would think twice, no matter how much money they have. I would never normally consider a new car for obvious reasons, but I have always wanted to buy a new low-volume, highly praised, niche model to enjoy the 'new car' experience without the huge depreciation, due to it's popularity and exclusivity. When I saw the GT-R concept back in 2001, I was smitten!

GTRok - good point, looking at how the 4+ year old 996 turbo prices have plummeted, but that is probably more to do with the 997 release. As you say, the 3 year warranty on the GT-R is a massive advantage also.

tokyogtr - 'some people doing 50/50'? Crikey - is it really getting to that point already? Re: servicing - so did you know schedules / prices etc. before confirming your order? We are totally in the dark here in the UK, but I guess our prices will be roughly yours x 1.5!!


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

The 50/50 comment refers to people paying 50% cash and the rest financed. Yes. In japan everyhing was explained in advance.


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## jagseven (Sep 2, 2008)

Until the car is ready for delivery the amount at risk is limited to £3.5k - you can lose this becasue you decide not to take delivery or the dealer goes bust.

If you can afford to lose 3.5k (which you should be if you intend to buy however upsetting this would be) then stick with the order and decide what to do in 2010 or sooner if the chance comes to buy a car for a knock down price against which you can write off the 3.5k.......at least that's what I'm telling myself at the moment.


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## GTRok (Apr 3, 2008)

Exactly my thinking also jagseven.Just wait and see what happens, you never know Nissan might even credit the 3.5k against another car if you pull out......not sure what mind....run-around for the missus or 370Z perhaps? not in GTR league I know, but could be worth asking the question, just in case something comes up in the range in the future that you/family may be interested in.


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## obzi (Feb 19, 2008)

I'd intended to place my order this week but i've now decided to hang on a while.

I'd already got my head around the fact this car is going depreciate considerably, running costs, etc so that's less of an issue for me.
More worrying are the numerous problems flying around the forums from owners, you'd expect early production issues and niggles but some are these are significant enough for me think that the vehicles sold so far in the US and Japan just aren't right.

On this forum alone you can read about, excessive heat in the footwells and rear, poor/clunky 1st to 2nd gear changes, you can't run the car in auto mode because of a possible loss of power at junctions, etc.

The biggest issue is around the transmission, it sounds fragile and now we hear that you can't use launch control, not even once because Nissan are playing hard ball over warranty claims as more one guy with a $20,000 bill has found out.
This is not what i want to hear, as a first time Nissan buyer i need to hear is that they are bending over backwards to help buyers with this brand new car Add to this the current ordering fiasco, conflicting information i get them from them, etc and i can only say i have lost confidence in them and the car as it exists now.

Don't get me wrong, i truly want everyone in the UK to get a GTR with no problems so i can buy one but it's going to take probably a year before i'll hear enough good reports about the cars reliability and particularly on how Nissan handle any problems before i'll be handing over my 60 grand.


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## Paul T (Jan 6, 2008)

My main concern with the GTR is depreciation.Having been seriously stung in the past with TVRs I was hoping this car would have very good residuals.But If the current financial climate continues well into next year I can see a lot of people getting cold feet - the waiting list therefore will get shorter.
I really wanted Nissan to keep numbers of this car very low & waiting lists very long so I could move it on after 2 years without losing my shirt.
Either way I am sticking with my order for June delivery.


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

If anyone is considering not signing for 2010 delivery, then PM me.


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## BigNige (Jun 1, 2008)

Tokyogtr: unfortunately no one here knows what any servicing costs are going to be at all. nothing published, nothing official at all. first figures are meant to be coming out at xmas/new yr. a lot of us are signed up already just hoping they're not too bad!

ToroKuro: Buy the gtr not the 911 turbo!


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## sjc (Mar 18, 2008)

obzi said:


> I'd intended to place my order this week but i've now decided to hang on a while.
> 
> I'd already got my head around the fact this car is going depreciate considerably, running costs, etc so that's less of an issue for me.
> More worrying are the numerous problems flying around the forums from owners, you'd expect early production issues and niggles but some are these are significant enough for me think that the vehicles sold so far in the US and Japan just aren't right.
> ...


Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you really wanted the car none of those issues would concern you.For instance,"excessive heat in thefootwells" and "clunky 1st/2nd changes" wouldn't stop me buying at all.I am also a 1st time Nissan buyer,my car doesn't arrive until Dec.2009,and I have no doubts after the way I/we were treated on the Academy day that Nissan will come up trumps on the customer service side, (especially if you have a straight dealer,step forward Marshalls).Remember the internet is a powerful tool, and very few owners of any marques post " no problems this week"topics,hence things get dominated by the perceived problems.Uk cars are still 6 months away at least, plenty of time to sort the bugs.


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

I'm with sjc on this one and I'd like to add Westway (formerly Sims) of Oxford to the list of straight dealers. Ollie and Simon have been very helpful from the beginning.


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## rs4 (Oct 9, 2008)

Not sure I would like any dealer having £3.5k of my money for 2 years with the amount of companys going bust recently.Dont supose the car market is doing so well at the moment.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

rs4 said:


> Not sure I would like any dealer having £3.5k of my money for 2 years with the amount of companys going bust recently.Dont supose the car market is doing so well at the moment.


/credit card

I'd say if you're worried about residuals or running costs then in reality you can't afford the car. But then that's the decision I took.
T


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## Paul T (Jan 6, 2008)

tonigmr2 said:


> /credit card
> 
> I'd say if you're worried about residuals or running costs then in reality you can't afford the car. But then that's the decision I took.
> T


It would be lovely not to worry about residuals, but like me I think a lot of people on here are stretching a little to be able to afford this car & good residuals are important.If Nissan keep a 12 month waiting list, the residuals will be good - if lots of people drop out because of the current financial climate & Nissan up production, second hand prices will plummet.
If I think thats going to happen next spring I wont be buying.


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## CJay (Mar 23, 2008)

My Two Penneth worth if I may 

 Forever the optimist ...me that is :clap:

During my Driving career we have had fuel hikes and a poor economy and the big petrol engined cars value plummet on the second hand market place but it all comes good in the end and hopefully the current climate we find ourselves in ... although worrying will be looking better in about 6 to 12months.

I am in the category like others where I have had to make sacrifices to afford the GTR e.g. I have sold my two year old EVO 1X and I am currently saving very hard so as to pay cash for my car due in september 2009 so Yes I too hope the GTR will retain more than 50% of its value at the 3 year stage which without knowing i think it stands a good chance of doing that especially when you consider cars like the Mini & the CTR retain about 54% of value after 3 years and they are over supplied in comparison with the GTR (I know and appreciate the 3 year values issue is quite complex)

I would also like to add I think when considering purchasing a car like the GTR its no good worrying about fuel costs and servicing if you do then dont purchase (That said aslong as its not double what the Evo cost to run ....lol)

PS The New EVO X requires only 1 Year 10,000 mile servicing unlike the 1X and other Evos which require 6 months or 4.5 miles.

PPS hang on in there 

Rgds CJ


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

well at least the fuel is getting cheaper! high octane here in japan has just onge from about yen185 to yen165 per litre.... other than that, there will be a lot of gt-rs on the market soon. i'm not a bear, i'm a realist. when it comes to deciding what's more important, mortgage payments or car payments...


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

obzi said:


> I'd intended to place my order this week but i've now decided to hang on a while.
> 
> I'd already got my head around the fact this car is going depreciate considerably, running costs, etc so that's less of an issue for me.
> More worrying are the numerous problems flying around the forums from owners, you'd expect early production issues and niggles but some are these are significant enough for me think that the vehicles sold so far in the US and Japan just aren't right.
> ...




You can read about every bad point of any car on any forum ,sure none are perfect ,sorry but you're not going to buy a high performance car thrash it to Kingdom come and expect it never to fail .If your on this Register you will hear the bad and the good ,thats what it's here for .This cars been out nearly a year now ,how much longer does it need


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

obzi said:


> I'd intended to place my order this week but i've now decided to hang on a while.
> 
> I'd already got my head around the fact this car is going depreciate considerably, running costs, etc so that's less of an issue for me.
> More worrying are the numerous problems flying around the forums from owners, you'd expect early production issues and niggles but some are these are significant enough for me think that the vehicles sold so far in the US and Japan just aren't right.
> ...


all the best cars I have had, have been flawed but they were still all terrific

For example;
Scooby; clutch judder, turbo cooling, chavness, road lepper factor
zed; capri factor, drives like a truck, bills


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## NismoR35GTR (Apr 2, 2008)

Hi, read this on another forum. It may be some good news for depreciation if they also stop/halt taking orders in the UK.

Nissan Temporarily STOP Taking GT-R Orders


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## BQF (Aug 2, 2008)

I must say, I got my 'order form' from the dealer today, despite paying my deposit in August (!). I think they are nervous that people will get cold feet, given the worlds credit problems. I work in the City so I guess I shouldn't be too surprised about that - I think the comment earlier about dealers going bust was nearer to the mark than the poster realises.........

I too have cold feet now. Partly because of the wait, and partly because I fear that the car isn't as good as it has been made out....I haven't had the opportunity to drive it yet.

I don't agree that if you can afford it you can just ignore the consequences of colossal depreciation either. Although cars do depreciate rapidly, you want some value to remain, surely?

For me it's a case of £57,500 for one of the most exciting cars I have ever read about, or using that £57,500 as a deposit for a second home.........given prices are plummeting all over Europe...

Hmmm. Time to ponder I think.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Just my thoughts on this ,but I think that anyone that has not got a car orderd yet will get one sooner by not placing an order .I'm pretty sure there will be cars for sale later next year ,slightly used as well as the people that have dropped out of the waiting list .To be honest now would be the worst time to order a GTR ,imo...


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## Miguel - Newera (Sep 18, 2003)

Interesting to hear that Nissan is temporarily stopping taking orders.
Metals are getting cheaper, so I don't think that's the problem. 

Being a relatively expensive car, I'd hazzard a guess it's because the exchange rate from Japan now is making it impossible for Nissan to export R35 GT-R's and sell in other countries without making a loss. At the moment, £55,000 OTR is not a realistic figure to sell in the UK. That was based on an exch. rate at the very beginning of 2008 of 230 Yen/ £, not the current 170 Yen / £. With Bailouts going on in UK & USA, Europe, etc. this has the effect of causing depreciation. Japan's not (Currently) in such a position to need nationalise it's banks and investors are changing their money to Yen, which helps strengthen the yen as a result. So unless there's a vast change, it's likely Nissan would see large losses in importing the R35 GT-R I think. My 2p worth..


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## tokyogtr (Feb 14, 2008)

They've this once before near the beginning of the year. I think they use it as an opportunity to catch up on engine builds. They're not meeting the original capacity. Wouldn't read anything sinister into it.



Miguel - Newera said:


> Interesting to hear that Nissan is temporarily stopping taking orders.
> Metals are getting cheaper, so I don't think that's the problem.
> 
> Being a relatively expensive car, I'd hazzard a guess it's because the exchange rate from Japan now is making it impossible for Nissan to export R35 GT-R's and sell in other countries without making a loss. At the moment, £55,000 OTR is not a realistic figure to sell in the UK. That was based on an exch. rate at the very beginning of 2008 of 230 Yen/ £, not the current 170 Yen / £. With Bailouts going on in UK & USA, Europe, etc. this has the effect of causing depreciation. Japan's not (Currently) in such a position to need nationalise it's banks and investors are changing their money to Yen, which helps strengthen the yen as a result. So unless there's a vast change, it's likely Nissan would see large losses in importing the R35 GT-R I think. My 2p worth..


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## bullett (Aug 4, 2008)

I've not yet recieved my order form to sign but I'll be giving it serious thought. As much as I love the GTR I think nearly 2 years is a long time to wait. Although it's not going to be common it's not going to be rare by 2010 either. 

The gov could also do alot to cripple supercars in 2 years, £1000 Road tax, super high purchase tax are all possible in that time scale. Not to mention possbile restications on the road to make it very easy to loose your license. In this case it's only a track car and for that I think I'd rather have a Caterham.

Credit cruch, there are an awful lot of other cars on the market for a similar price 2nd hand supercars are a bargin now and likely to get better and better. A 997 Turbo is very tempting, an Aston, Masarati or Fezza all possible choices. Not to mention ther could be alot of Choice in nearly new GT-R's at or below list.

I can't afford to lose £3500, I can afford the car and to run it but I don't think it's a good bet right now. If I was getting the car in a year or less I would definatly be keeping it.


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## maxxwaxx (Feb 25, 2008)

I have a question on the deposit front .
I paid my deposit when order books opened in april, but never sent my signed dealer agreement back, my wife lost it while i was away, i asked dealer for another but it never came.
Now in the current economic climate my job is under threat, so I phoned the dealer and asked about getting my deposit back. I was told that couldnt be done. 
I just wanted to check what everyones understanding was regarding deposits, should i be able to get back as i never signed my dealer agreement.


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## BQF (Aug 2, 2008)

I have an e-mail from my dealer advising that my deposit is coming back shortly. I had to cancel really - it just doesn't make sense to tie up £3,500 for nearly 2 years and then pay another £54,000 for a car that I could probably pick up nearly new for half that.

The credit crunch is just going to get worse over 2009 - it's a scary time to be buying £57,500 new cars.......


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## bullett (Aug 4, 2008)

maxxwaxx said:


> I have a question on the deposit front .
> I paid my deposit when order books opened in april, but never sent my signed dealer agreement back, my wife lost it while i was away, i asked dealer for another but it never came.
> Now in the current economic climate my job is under threat, so I phoned the dealer and asked about getting my deposit back. I was told that couldnt be done.
> I just wanted to check what everyones understanding was regarding deposits, should i be able to get back as i never signed my dealer agreement.


I have a letter in my hand saying that deposits are refundable until the contract is signed. Mind you it also says that the contracts will be sent out in September for return by 31st October.


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## GTR or Not?? (Feb 13, 2007)

Just my 2 pence worth. In the same boat, was going to order months back and decided to sit tight and wait. I am going to get one in 2010 but this will be a nearly new one. I don't want to put down a deposit in the current climate and have a 2 year wait for it. My job is secure (luckily) I can afford the car, I just dont really want to put £3500 down when the money would earn me more over two years if I was clever with it.

Anyone concerned about dealers going bust then there may be a possible solution - pay the deposit on a credit card, you are then covered under the credit rules, something like section 75 I think?!?

I could be wrong but am sure there is some kind of protection available if you pay on credit card and the company goes under.


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## Paul T (Jan 6, 2008)

By the way this thread is shaping up there wont be a two year waiting list for very long!! There are obviously a lot of nervous people out there.

Common sense to pay the deposit with a credit card - I used AE & got 5% cash back


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## geezajob (Aug 13, 2001)

Guy said:


> But there is a big difference. Cars are expected to lose money over time, wheras shares are expected to gain in value.
> 
> Anyone not expecting to lose significant money on new cars, is misguided.
> 
> There are of course exceptions for certain models and some temporary periods of value retention for new models in demand, but these are almost always temporary.


Agreed.. but take the R8 for example, for the first 6-8 months the darn thing couldn't be bought for under list (using Autotrader prices as an example, not "I knew a mate who knew someone who could get discount").. 

The GT-R seems set to be under list pretty much from the get-go, where it may not have been if the economy were stronger.

Sure, people understand they're going to lose money on ANY normal car over time, but it's the extent to which its going to blow its brains out which is a variable.. and in the current/future climate it's looking unpallateably ugly to many.


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## DwayneDibbley (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi 

I'm another "Cold Feet" person. I'll not bore you with the tedious "credit crunch" details but my business is in a radically different situation now as it was when I ordered and from the perspective of a director operating responsibly I have no option but to cancel. I fully expect that everything will be fine come 2010 again but the uncertainty is too big at this stage to battle on regardless. 

My dealer contacted me last week to try to get me to sign my order form. This is the order form that was supposed to be in the dealership within a month of me ordering (order date 14-04-08). As far as I was aware the contract could be pulled out of by both parties until that was signed.

The dealer contacted me by email this morning to say that the "official" line is that "any orders cancelled more than 30 days after notification of the anticipated delivery date/period are subject to a deposit forfeiture." That clearly was never articulated in any previous correspondence though.

He says Nissan will fine them £1000 for the cancelled order and expect him to keep the other £2500. But he is prepared to give me back the £2500. 

I really can't be arsed to get all legal with him over the £1000 but I can't see anyone else on here having had this problem and just wondered if any of you had encountered this line.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. 

Thanks


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

That's utter BS. Which dealer is this? Name and shame.

It was quite clear that the deposit was refundable UNTIL the contract is signed.


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## DwayneDibbley (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi - that's what I thought.

I'd rather not name and shame until I get some response back from him. I haven't sent my return email yet since I wanted to check my position. I really can't be bothered to go legal over a grand but if I'm being dicked about I'll happily do it on principle.

If I don't get a satisfactory response I will certainly name and shame though. At this stage I still fully intend to get one (eventually) and they are the only dealers in my area (there's a clue in that) so I don't really want to create too much bad feeling _yet_.


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## davros (Jun 28, 2007)

Your dealer shouldn't have actually ordered your car until they had the order form signed and returned. Once the order form has been signed and the deposit paid, you have a contract. If you cancel after this point you forefeit your entire £3500 deposit.


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## bigphil2 (Aug 21, 2008)

Dave does that mean that as we have never signed an order form our deposit is still refundable.


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## davros (Jun 28, 2007)

bigphil2 said:


> Dave does that mean that as we have never signed an order form our deposit is still refundable.


Give me a call and we can have a chat about it


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## bigphil2 (Aug 21, 2008)

davros said:


> Give me a call and we can have a chat about it



Will call you later today Dave.


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## geezajob (Aug 13, 2001)

DwayneDibbley said:


> My dealer contacted me last week to try to get me to sign my order form


And why do you think they did that ?? Because they know that without the signature, you've not agreed to anything.. which includes the deposit refund.



DwayneDibbley said:


> I really can't be arsed to get all legal with him over the £1000 but I can't see anyone else on here having had this problem and just wondered if any of you had encountered this line.


I returned the helmet and got a full refund this week.

You haven't signed an order form, and you haven't agreed to the deposit being non-refundable, particularly on a car that hasn't even been built yet.

Sure, if you'd put a deposit down on a bright pink car with weird options, and it was trundling down the production line then fair enough, there's some inconvenience for them.. but you've not put them out, or cost them (Nissan) a single penny.. quite the opposite, they've enjoyed interest on £3500 x number of deposits for years.

If you're not sure you can afford a £55K car in a years time, I'd have thought £1000 is a significant enough amount of money to want to see again.. which could be spent on your family/holidays etc.

Don't take it lying down, they're just trying it on.


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## nidge (Jun 3, 2008)

I think that it would be really interesting if someone who had signed an order form challenged Nissan? Whilst the law may be on Nissan's side, i suspect that the premise of the sale has been somewhat flawed over the whole LC/ warranty thing. I don't think that Nissan would want claims against them and the subsequent publicity over a 3,5000 deposit. I am not too concerned over the use of LC, however i think that the resale prospects would worry me if one cannot determine if a car had been launched or not. without that we could be signing an open cheque. :sadwavey:


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

nidge said:


> I think that it would be really interesting if someone who had signed an order form challenged Nissan? Whilst the law may be on Nissan's side, i suspect that the premise of the sale has been somewhat flawed over the whole LC/ warranty thing. I don't think that Nissan would want claims against them and the subsequent publicity over a 3,5000 deposit. I am not too concerned over the use of LC, however i think that the resale prospects would worry me if one cannot determine if a car had been launched or not. without that we could be signing an open cheque. :sadwavey:


I'm considering challenging this. Watch this space. I will not take ownership unless it can be proven the gearbox is sound. I will also not take ownership unless the quoted and publicised 0-60 time of 3.5 can be achieved under warranty!


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## jagseven (Sep 2, 2008)

I have decided to cancel and I'm in the process of getting my deposit back - the dealer may still get a sale from me if they don't mess me around but I don't want to tie up 3.5k for maybe 2 years in the current climate

It was made very clear to me (and says on the website as I recall) that the deposit is fully refundable until the order form is signed.


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## jagseven (Sep 2, 2008)

This is what is says on the website terms and conditions:

10. Your Reservation Payment will be fully refundable by Your Dealer if (a) you decide not to enter into a contract with Your Dealer to purchase the GT-R; (b) before entering into a contract with Your Dealer to purchase a GT-R Your Dealer becomes unable to accept your order for a GT-R; (c) your Pre-Order Reservation lapses; or (d) your GT-R Pre-Order Reservation is otherwise cancelled. If you are entitled to a refund of your Reservation Payment, Your Dealer will return your Reservation Payment to you in full as soon as reasonably practicable and in any event no later than 30 days from the date on which your GT-R Pre-Order Reservation was cancelled by you or Your Dealer. Neither Nissan nor Your Dealer shall have any further liability to you whatsoever (including any liability to pay interest in respect of the Reservation Payment).


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

That's pretty clear then. I'd like to add...

e) The vehicle is not fit for purpose


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## DwayneDibbley (Oct 16, 2008)

Hi all

Thanks for all that. I will keep you posted on the response. Appreciate all your comments.


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

GT-Racer said:


> I'm considering challenging this. Watch this space. I will not take ownership unless it can be proven the gearbox is sound. I will also not take ownership unless the quoted and publicised 0-60 time of 3.5 can be achieved under warranty!


I think you'll find that thrashing a car by doing repeated maximum attack 0-60 times will not be covered by warranty by ANY manufacturer. I've heard other supercars like lambos get through clutches at a fast rate from being launched....i bet they wouldn't be replaced under warranty though. Any excess wear and tear caused by driving style is down to the driver imho


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## geezajob (Aug 13, 2001)

axolotl said:


> I've heard other supercars like lambos get through clutches at a fast rate from being launched....i bet they wouldn't be replaced under warranty though.


Well, for a start a clutch is considered a consumable compared to a gearbox which you'd expect to last the lifetime of a car.. and secondly, Lamborghini repeatedly replaced peoples clutches until the "E" version clutch was released which didn't burn out so quickly.


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## nidge (Jun 3, 2008)

Nissan should do much more to ease people’s minds. Yes they will lose orders following the economic downturn; however they should address those who are concerned about the cars engineering reliability. I want the car but not without some assurances. More so, I want to know that there is some way to verify that the car has not been launch in order to aid resale.


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## robsm (Jul 22, 2008)

maybe we should go via porsche, they seem to listen to them.


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## Armed English (Mar 18, 2008)

I can understand wanting to cancel if you can no longer afford it or feel it is not right when you are having to get rid of staff.

But people thinking a car is not fit for purpose etc, or worried about reliability on the basis of what has been on the net of late? Were these people ever in a position to buy one? I think a degree of intelligence is required to be in that position  Or maybe not:lamer:

I can't wait for mine to arrive :clap:


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## BigNige (Jun 1, 2008)

I can't wait either!:clap:
So if people are cancelling do we get our cars sooner?


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## mdr (Aug 19, 2008)

I had a call from my dealer (marshalls Cambridge) last night and I asked him that question and he said no sign of that yet.

They called me chasing up the signed order form which underlines the fact that they've probably had a few cancellations but at no benefit to my Dec 08 delivery as yet. 

My opinion on the car is unchanged and i'll be happy to get mine sooner. I would expect the reliability issues to be rectified by the time we get our cars. 

I have mixed feelings about Nissan so far - the Race Academy was superb, but the lack of concrete specs on the car still seems a bit weak. We were rushed to define specs (colour, trim) at the time of order despite not even seeing a car, and the amount of deposit we were all asked to place was fairly hefty considering the cost of the car - Porsche don't ask for that much. The stories on here about dealers trying to keep parts of them despite not holding a signed order form are unprofessional. The world is a difficult place but as long as the car performs as it should, they will still find plenty of buyers. 

Wish i could say the same for my 993 turbo!


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

mdr said:


> IThey called me chasing up the signed order form which underlines the fact that they've probably had a few cancellations but at no benefit to my Dec 08 delivery as yet.
> 
> !




You mean I presume Dec 09 delivery.


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## DwayneDibbley (Oct 16, 2008)

Full refund coming 

Thanks all.

This hasn't changed my opinion one bit about getting one though. Hopefully when things settle this will provide opportunities for us all to get them a little earlier. To be honest the LC stuff doesn't worry me a bit. 

Now I just need to get the head down and "de-credit crunch" myself for a few months.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

mdr said:


> We were rushed to define specs (colour, trim) at the time of order despite not even seeing a car, and the amount of deposit we were all asked to place was fairly hefty considering the cost of the car - Porsche don't ask for that much.


They do. It's £10-15k on a new Turbo or GT3/GT2, 10% of value on others I recall. To get my 997 GT2 I had to place £15k, before there were any cars in the country or the spec had been announced.


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

Armed English said:


> But people thinking a car is not fit for purpose etc, or worried about reliability on the basis of what has been on the net of late? Were these people ever in a position to buy one? I think a degree of intelligence is required to be in that position  Or maybe not:lamer:


Yes, some of "these people" are thanks, but I appreciate your concern. I'm a cash buyer and own my house outright, but I'm not prepared to take ownership of something that's not fit for purpose. Have you ever heard of principles or risk mitigation?


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## BigNige (Jun 1, 2008)

My brothers a solicitor so if there are any probs there'll be some serious legal ass kicking going on...!!!


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## GT-Racer (Apr 4, 2008)

My Mum's a baker. Does that help!?


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## BigNige (Jun 1, 2008)

Def!


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## mdr (Aug 19, 2008)

Guy said:


> They do. It's £10-15k on a new Turbo or GT3/GT2, 10% of value on others I recall. To get my 997 GT2 I had to place £15k, before there were any cars in the country or the spec had been announced.


Ok - only talking about my experience as I only put down £1.5k on a new C2S so that was much smaller as % of total cost.


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## bullett (Aug 4, 2008)

10% on my Cayman also. However in my experience it's refundable until you fully confirm the spec and they start the build. Not 2 years in advance.


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## nidge (Jun 3, 2008)

likewise, deposit om my porsche's was fully refundable until build (for me that was even if you had signed an order) Whilst Nissan is equal to Porsche in terms of performance, they are no where near in terms of customer service.


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## jamesbilluk (Aug 10, 2006)

seriously considering canceling my self now too. Will be a shame to do it but just not sure any more and my needs have changed now to be honest. I can always get one in a few years time. Got a test drive in a V8 Vantage this thursday as i've always lusted after one. Will see how it goes..


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## DwayneDibbley (Oct 16, 2008)

This is a bit of a bore now and I'm getting really quite pissed off with my dealer.

Can those who have cancelled and received their money back confirm that they have received the full amount and not some lower amount? My refund is more than a £100 less than I paid and there is no explanation with it.

Once more I'd like to get my facts straight before I contact them.


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## whitey (Feb 10, 2006)

I have cancelled with a dealer and moved to a more co-operative dealer and received my full money back - there is no reason it should be less


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## jagseven (Sep 2, 2008)

I have just received a full refund £3,500 - I was expecting nothing less!


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## DwayneDibbley (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks guys.


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## bullett (Aug 4, 2008)

Full refund here.


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## supraman (Mar 25, 2008)

There seems to have been a lot of people pulling out in the last few weeks. How much of this is to do with the credit crunch, and how much of it is to do with the transmission/warranty issues?


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## bullett (Aug 4, 2008)

Not really effected by the crunch (yet) but it's nearly 2 years until I get my car and alot can happen in that time. 
Transmission/warranty/servicing - Lack of official info is a concern, possible problems with the tranny an issue also.
The possibility that GB could screw us further on Road Tax and petrol costs are also a consideration.

The biggest reason for me though is that there are alot of motors out there for about the same money as a GT-R (2nd hand). This is also part of the crunch, big engined motors are not popular and plummeting in value. Astons (V8/DB9), Porsche Turbo, R8, Massa GT even Fezza's and probably Lambos will be in reach in a year. Not to mention there is a chance that GT-R's will be on the forecourt with low miles for under list if the current conditions continue. 

I'm going to take my chances 2nd hand.


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## jamesbilluk (Aug 10, 2006)

exactly my reasoning aswell. More cars have become available now. Even though the Gtr is a fantastic machine. Think I will end up getting one second hand at some point. Even though it's not much cheaper than the Gtr I will probably step away from map for a bit and go with the Aston vantage.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

the thing is if not so many come in the first place there will not be many second hand?

I think Nissan will honour the price for deposits but with the exchange rates as they are there are not making as much profit. Jap cars in the UK are likely to go up in value as bringing new ones in will cost to much. I think the price of older GTR's will stready as well. In winter they always go down but with no new old imports coming in early next year if the exchange rate stays as it is demand will grow and so will the price.

look how long the R34 kept reasonable values for....

R


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## BJohnson (Mar 24, 2003)

jamesbilluk said:


> seriously considering canceling my self now too. Will be a shame to do it but just not sure any more ..


No, don't do it! Suicide is never the answer. Oh, you mean the car!


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## jamesbilluk (Aug 10, 2006)

lol, came out the wrong way that. I'm still here.


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## bullett (Aug 4, 2008)

I think the early adopters will do well and values hold for the first 6 months to a year. But I think one of the key things with the GT-R is that it is has fantastic value for a new car against similar performing rivals. A year after launch a GT-R at say 55k will be up against a 997 Turbo at the same price, you have to really want the Nissan to justify that against the Porker. The GT-R is and will remain an excellent car but it's still pretty specialist even in the performance car market.


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## Aerodramatics (Feb 10, 2008)

*Money for nothing and chicks for free?!?*



DwayneDibbley said:


> This is a bit of a bore now and I'm getting really quite pissed off with my dealer.
> 
> Can those who have cancelled and received their money back confirm that they have received the full amount and not some lower amount? My refund is more than a £100 less than I paid and there is no explanation with it.
> 
> Once more I'd like to get my facts straight before I contact them.





DwayneDibbley said:


> Hi
> My dealer contacted me last week to try to get me to sign my order form. This is the order form that was supposed to be in the dealership within a month of me ordering (order date 14-04-08). As far as I was aware the contract could be pulled out of by both parties until that was signed.
> 
> The dealer contacted me by email this morning to say that the "official" line is that "any orders cancelled more than 30 days after notification of the anticipated delivery date/period are subject to a deposit forfeiture." That clearly was never articulated in any previous correspondence though.
> ...


Questions I would ask yourself are:

1. Does a contract exist? Yes.
2. Did you expressly agree to the penalty clause, e.g. is the penalty in the small print of a standard form contract? No, afaik from reading your post.
3. Has the Nissan or the dealer suffered a real loss? No, afaik.

Imho, if the answer is no to any one or all three, you might wonder why the Nissan needs to claim deposit forfeiture, as they haven't lost any thing and are actually profiting from this.

Imho, a contract exists as you have paid a deposit, i.e. you intended to claim a place in the order queue. However, whether you agreed to the penalty term and whether it is genuinely fair in your instance, is not established. From what you say, you have not expressly agreed to it. If Nissan has not genuinely incurred any additional costs or losses, then it may struggle to enforce its penalty clause, in court, as it is the party relying on the term that must prove to the court it is reasonable and that a real loss has occured, i.e. damages in the form of part or all of your deposit is due and/or future loss (compensation).

Also, if you never agreed to it up front, it is not part of the contract. Alternatively, if the terms and conditions of the deposit were non-negotiable then the Contract is probable Unfair as described by the Unfair Contract Terms Act (As amended). Would you seriously negotiate a catch-all have my money no matter what deposit, if you had equal bargining power to agree the contract? No, of course not.

If you don't trade cars as part of your business, you are still classed as a "consumer" in the eyes of the law. Thus you could probably sue in a small claims court for recission of the contract an unfair contract. The loss of deposit should be limited to up to costs incurred to date. If none, then full deposit back.

It's all well and good, dealer's making comments along the lines of "Nah, mate. If you cancel, you lose the full £3500, no matter what." However, this has no basis in law whatsoever. It is just a typical bully tactic to persuade you (and others) they have no rights, and will lose all if they cancel automatically. The deposit is to cover a real loss, not act as a penalty. AFAIK, courts take a massively dim view of penalty clauses in Consumer contracts never mind excessive ones. I would not like to be the Company trying this on in a small claims court. The deposit should not be used to cajole customers to go through with an order, when they wish to cancel and no losses or costs have been incurred. This on a "pre-order", over 10 months from delivery? C'mon !!! It can be cancelled today at no or trivial specific costs to your order, i.e. not costs part of everyday running of a car selling business.

If it were me, I would consider my options and certainly express my concerns about being ripped off back to my dealer. i.e. what's the £1000 for? If the car is sold on, where is the demonstrable loss? Don't just pay cos someone tells you !!! I would also point out the statutory protection you have under the law and your willingness to exercise your statutory rights to challenge their decision in a small claims court.

Top tip: If you do go to court, take the day off as unpaid, as you can then claim these costs in addition to your deposit.

Just my opinion, DD. Don't rely on it. Seek the advice of a qualified legal professional.

If you don't stand up for yourself and seek justice, then unfortunately it appears with NMGB you won't get it due to their good grace. Rather you will be penalised, to their disgrace.

Whatever you do, good luck :thumbsup:


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## Paul63 (Feb 21, 2014)

Hi brendon, thanks for reply to message about looking for gtr,couldn't reply private as I'm a new user and it wouldn't let me reply to your message, unfortunately not looking for a white one and still have to sell my 911 that's why was hoping to p/ex , good luck with yours looks awesome cheers
Paul


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## Paul63 (Feb 21, 2014)

Oops sorry sent post to wrong person


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## GlastoVeteran (Dec 15, 2011)

Don't you just love it when a 5 year old thread is resurrected by mistake


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