# RH9 Cars, RH9 Rules, GTR power split, GTR *ROAD* tranny losses



## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Righty then, heres a post and a half...

RH9 rules (and somthing AndyBarnes said a while back) state that the cars cannot run in RWD mode at all (presumably becuase RWD means less transmission losses, so more [email protected], so faster times)

But doesnt the standard GTR transmission setup means once full traction is achived 100% of the power goes to the rear wheels anyhow?
Or does RH9 rules mean that system has to be changed?

GTRs on the rollers have huge 4WD transmission losses as all 4 wheels are recieving power, but on the road, once theres enough traction, 100% goes to the back yea? So you got low RWD transmission losses? 
(which explians tuned GTRs phenomenal 0-300kmh times for example).

So whas the deal with GTR transmission n losses on the ROAD (where it counts, **** the rollers)?

And is there a website about RH9 cars? (bearing in mind www.RH9.co.au or whatever it was is gone)


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Steve,

You really do talk a load of old bollox !!!     

RH9 is still alive, and the owner comes here alot.

The rollers and the road are efectively the same thing.

If you drive one you will notice that the system is not all or nothing, it is gradual, so when you dump the clutch on the line maybe 30% or more drive goes to the front axle, then quickly tails off once traction is regained, but even when fully on song under full acceleration somethinmg like 5% or more still goes to the front axle.

The transmission losses arent that great, mainly because rolling road figures are taken in fourth or fifth gears and the break in traction is not so fierce. Without wanting to start yet another power claims war that is the reason why some people wonder about some rolling road figures, as the losses shouldnt be anything like a 20-25% loss once the car is on song. Obviously certain types of dyno eliminate this totally, but give higher readings as a result, but then this can easily be taken into account.

Oh, and I am not attacking you, or anyone else, just trying to answer your question   

James.


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

bladerider said:


> *Steve,
> 
> You really do talk a load of old bollox !!!     *


Whys that then? Far as i can see i know a damn sight more on the techy side of things than most who use this forum...



bladerider said:


> *
> RH9 is still alive, and the owner comes here alot.*


No its not, its not online "Cannot find server"



bladerider said:


> *
> The rollers and the road are efectively the same thing.*


No



bladerider said:


> *If you drive one you will notice that the system is not all or nothing, it is gradual, so when you dump the clutch on the line maybe 30% or more drive goes to the front axle, then quickly tails off once traction is regained, but even when fully on song under full acceleration somethinmg like 5% or more still goes to the front axle..*


Well if at least 5% always goes to the front (im not so sure about R32GTRs as they dont run any pressure in the system, hence why u can run em in full RWD mode no problem, whereas if u try that on a R33/34 youl ruin the transfer box, so they might not, anyone know?) then i can see where they coming from in the RH9 rules, never heard that before tho.



bladerider said:


> *
> The transmission losses arent that great, mainly because rolling road figures are taken in fourth or fifth gears and the break in traction is not so fierce. Without wanting to start yet another power claims war that is the reason why some people wonder about some rolling road figures, as the losses shouldnt be anything like a 20-25% loss once the car is on song. Obviously certain types of dyno eliminate this totally, but give higher readings as a result, but then this can easily be taken into account...*


GTR transmission loss figures ive seen on RRs are huge, like all 4WD cars. Manual transmission RWD cars usually have nowhere near as high tranny losses, and thas cause GTRs power all 4 wheels on rollers.

I was under the impression that 100% went to the rear wheels on the road which would give less tranny loss on the road, but going by what your saying that never happens (that pressure in the R33/34 ATESSA sys i expect) so that'd explain it.

So is it the same on 32s? Im thinking no due to the slightly different way the ATESSA sys works on em, but if i knew for sure id not ask.



bladerider said:


> *Oh, and I am not attacking you, or anyone else, just trying to answer your question   *


Yea, telling me i talk a load of old bollocks for no aparent reason help shitloads, ta


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

bladerider said:


> *You really do talk a load of old bollox !!!     *


Thats why I put these...     !!!

It was a friendly dig in the ribs man, ligten up !! If you dont know what Im like on here yet then youre gonna think Im a right 'orrible git after a while !! lol

And when you say "GTR transmission losses you have seen on rollers is huge" thats exactly why there is such a hoo hah over some claimed crank figures. The losses are no where near as bad as the dyno operators would have you believe. As you rightly said, the system effectively becomes rwd (or as near as dammit) once initial traction is regained.

Hope that helps, and please take me at face value - im only on here for a laugh  

J.

Edited to say - Apologies, I thought Jason had had a change of heart, but as his whole website is now dedicated to selling Project RH9, I guess he hasnt !!


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

bladerider said:


> *Thats why I put these...     !!!
> *


Temporary lack of humour mate, stress, too busy, not even took the stereo out the GTR i was supposed to do nearly a month ago, i need to hava **** and some horse tranquilizers or summat


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

LMFAO !!

Talk about brutal honesty !! lol

Be well !!


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

RH9 is still alive, and the owner comes here alot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No its not, its not online "Cannot find server"



--here´s the link: www.rh9.com.au
but thats only jasons homepage of the project RH9.
As far as I know there´s not one site of the real RH9 group
And the rules jus tell: 4WD-Skylines (which means that no GTT´s or something not wearing the GTR-name takes part) on street legal tyres. THATS ALL


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

andreasgtr said:


> *And the rules jus tell: 4WD-Skylines (which means that no GTT³Ò or something not wearing the GTR-name takes part) on street legal tyres. THATS ALL *


Not quite all. Most importantly, the car needs to be street registered (ie. have legitimate plates). RH9 is all about "street specification" GT-Rs (although extreme) that can run the big numbers.

Cya O!


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

Sorry!
Forgot that little detail 
You must be GIO?!
The man with the big bad engine...
Is there a thread where you comment your engine?
I´d like to know more....


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## ColinM (Sep 29, 2002)

hipogtr's engine spec is 'Top Secrect', har har  

Seriously though, I would like to see a detailed list too.


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

...Aye c´ptain!
Me wantsa know sam specs tu...


At least some information what nice TS-parts made their way into that monsta.


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## GTRfan (Apr 20, 2003)

*RH9 GTRs*

From what i have picked up from talking to people who have been to Japan & actually seen these RH9 GTRs running -
To be part of the "RH9" club the car needs to be :-
A GTR, running 'street' tyres like Nittos or similar(No slicks)
needs to be registered & road driven (even if it was trucked to the track - as most of them probably are)
& most importantly - is Drag racing IN JAPAN.
I have a GTR that has run 9.45 @ 153 mph on Nittos.The car was registered at the time, & was being driven on the street now & again, although I trailered the car to the drags for convienience.
I do have an 'official' RH9 sticker from Japan that reads -
RH9 The Street Specs of GTR, 0-400m 9second's Record Holders Club.
But as far as I am concerned it is not a proper RH9 car because it
has been built & raced in Australia not in Japan.
Of course it really doesn't matter anyway as pulling nines is great fun & now we are looking to get into the eights.
A friend of mine has an R32 GTR that has just run 8.84 @ 160 mph
on ET Street tyres, & a NZ GTR recently ran 8.55.
Maybe we should start our own RH8 Club!!!


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## Frosty (Aug 9, 2001)

*4WD and power losses.*

While it's true that a 4wd setup is generally more prone to transmission losses, this is not where most of the confusion comes in, and GTR's aren't much worse then any other 4wd car.

The problem comes when measuring an 'estimated' flywheel figure which is something less and less tuners are now doing.

Flywheel figures are measured by doing a rolling road run as usual, and then once peak power is hit, letting the car 'run down' with no throttle. This rolling resistance is added to the wheel power to give an estimated flywheel figure, and is usually pretty damn accurate.

So what goes wrong with GTR's?

As soon as you lift off the throttle on a skyline, it goes into RWD, so the run-down is not measured at all 4 wheels quite as it should be. This is why GTR transmission losses look much higher than they are, because the rolling resistance looks like it's smaller, so less is actually added to the wheel output figure.

If this is wrong then someone please correct me, it's all in the name of good discussion.


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

andreasgtr said:


> *Sorry!
> Forgot that little detail
> You must be GIO?!
> The man with the big bad engine...
> ...


Yep. that's me. There are some threads that talk about the numbers that the engine is making but I've never bothered putting up a list of the parts. However, since there appears to be some curiousity here is something quick that captures the more important pieces on the car. Sorry, its still a bit lengthy.

Cya O!


Engine
Air Filter & AFMs - HKS Metal Flow (x2) & Speed Density Conversion
Turbine - HKS 3037S A/R 0.87 (x2)
Intercooler - ARC Pro Class Twin Entry
Intake Plenum - Top Secret GT Surge Tank
Throttle Body - Top Secret/Nissan Infinity 90mm
Exhaust Manifold - HKS 3037S Support Kit
Turbo Wastegate - HKS GT Wastegate (x2)
Turbo Dump & Downpipe - Top Secret Drag 80mm (x2)
Catalyzer - HKS Metal Sports 75mm
Exhaust System - Trust TR Power Evolution 94mm
Fuel Pumps - Bosch Motorsports 550 (x2)
Fuel Collector Tank & Lines - Top Secret Stainless
Fuel Pressure Regulator	- SARD
Fuel Delivery Pipe - Trust GREX Billet
Fuel Injectors - Top Secret 1000cc (x6)
Headwork - Top Secret SPL Port & Polish
Camshafts - HKS Step 2 IN/EX: 272 degrees & 10.5mm lift
Valve Springs - Tomei Powered Double
Valve Retainers - Tomei Powered Titanium
Cam Pulleys - Top Secret Aluminium Adjustable
Timing Belt - Top Secret Super
Engine Mounts - Nismo N1
Pistons - HKS Forged 87mm
Head Gasket - HKS Metal Drag
Connecting Rods - HKS H Beam Billet 77.7mm
Crankshaft - HKS 2.8ltr Forged Full Counterweight
Oil Pump - Trust Large Capacity
Oil Cooler - HKS 15 Row Racing
Oil Collector Tank - Top Secret Stainless
Oil Pan & Baffle Plates - Top Secret Upgrade PRO
Water Pump - Nismo N1
Radiator - Yashio Super Race Radiator
Fan Controller - HKS Variable Fan Controller
Radiator Shroud - ARC Titanium

Drivetrain
Clutch & Flywheel - OS Giken R3C Triple Plate
Cutch Slave Cylinder - Nismo Spec III Racing
Shift Fork - Top Secret Super Release
Input Shaft - Nismo Racing
Rear LSD - Cusco Type RS

Handling	
Suspension Dampers - HKS HyperMax Damper II
Rear Arm Links - Cusco Adjustable Rear Upper Arms
HICAS Tension Rods - Cusco Super HICAS Drag Rods
Wheels - Volk Racing TE37 19 x 9.5 +12 Offset
Tyres - Yokohama AVS Sport 275/30/19
Brakes - Brembo F50/370mm 3-piece(F)/322mm 3-piece N1(R)	
Brake Pads - Endless CCR (F & R)
Brake Lines - Top Secret Stainless

Electronics	
ECU (sensors, harness, etc.) - HKS F Con V Pro
Boost Controller - Blitz Type-R Dual SBC
Gauges - Nismo Multi Function Display II
Turbo Timer - HKS Type 1
Air Fuel Analyzer (Wideband O2) - NEKO Corporation AF700

Exterior	
Bonnet - Top Secret Aero
Side Skirts - Top Secret G-Force
Front Bumper - Top Secret Aero
Front Diffuser - Top Secret Carbon
Rear Diffuser - Top Secret Carbon
Side Mirrors - Ganador Super Mirror


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## Gaz Walker (May 14, 2002)

Yeah, that sounds alright Hipo 

Gaz.


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## deano (Jan 26, 2003)

*Re: RH9 GTRs*



GTRfan said:


> *
> I have a GTR that has run 9.45 @ 153 mph on Nittos.The car was registered at the time, & was being driven on the street now & again, although I trailered the car to the drags for convienience.
> I do have an 'official' RH9 sticker from Japan that reads -
> RH9 The Street Specs of GTR, 0-400m 9second's Record Holders Club.
> *


How did you go about getting an official RH9 sticker ? and who did you submit your times in order to become a member is there an official authority for RH9 to determind who does and does not qualify ? 

Dean


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## SteveN (Aug 6, 2002)

Anyone got any pics of the RH9 or ProGTR stickers? Didnt/Hasnt Projext X got a ProGTR badge on the back? Im sure i saw a pic of that once.

BTW, amazing spec Hipogtr/Gio  :smokin:


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## GT-Rob (Sep 28, 2003)

Is this what you mean?

http://www.fujiidynamics.co.jp/dfr/rh9.html


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

hipogtr,

Thanks for sharing the specification with us.

The only decent thing to do now is to post up your Dyno Sheet to let us see what the power output looks like from such an awesome spec.

Thanks

Hugh


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## ColinM (Sep 29, 2002)

@hipogtr
Amazing spec, what kind of gearbox are you using ?


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

@hipogtr:

     
Pleeze tell me the car arrived already packed like that from japan.
Or did you compose all these parts your own?

A M A Z I N G!

PICTURES?????
 

Also your outside appearance must be awesome!

...respect. (THATS A 1-family house on 4 wheels!)


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## GTRfan (Apr 20, 2003)

*RH9 sticker*

A mate that goes to Japan often bought 2 'official' RH9 stickers while there on a trip. I have put one on the car, but as I said, it
only means something in Japan.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Andreas,

As one of Gio's cars' biggest fans, I can tell you that....

A....he lives and works in Japan
B....he specced the car himself
C....Top Secret are not as expensive as UK tuners as they dont have to freight parts half way round the world
D....But I imagine this cars engine was still the same price as a House !!! lol

Have a nice day !!

Oh, and last I heard it was running around 900bhp+, and changed lanes by itself when putting your foot down in third !!

J.


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## DCD (Jun 28, 2001)

I can think of about 15-20 places that sell RH9 stikers! Whats the big deal? Why don't people start their own clubs instead of trying to fake being in the RH9 one....when they can't ever be as its only for cars that compete in Japan! Start RH9.5 or RH8 or something. Come on people...a bit of imagination!  

Oh....and you wouldn't want to drive around with a sticker written in Engrish right?


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## andreasgtr (Jul 2, 2003)

Bladerider

STOP IT!!!
that hurts!
I become envious. That means that man lives my live (well at least the one I´m dreaming of-living &working over there, driving the beauty and the beast in one....)


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

Thanks for all the feedback.  



Hugh Keir said:


> *The only decent thing to do now is to post up your Dyno Sheet to let us see what the power output looks like from such an awesome spec.
> *


As requested. Pump gas, 25-26 psi, power at the wheels (in grey):

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/hipogtr/gallery/cat3/GioR34Dyno.jpg

Have you got a recent dyno graph, Hugh? Your car must be putting out some big numbers, especially the torque. I'd be very interested to see how it looks.




ColinM said:


> *Amazing spec, what kind of gearbox are you using ?*


Would you believe the factory gearbox? Haven't launched the car yet - but its just a matter of time before it will be replaced.  




> _Originally posted by andreasgtr _*Or did you compose all these parts your own?
> 
> A M A Z I N G!
> 
> ...


Bladey has all the right answers. Cheers for that, mate.

andreasgtr, there are some old pics of the car and engine in the Member's Rides area. Here are 2 quickies that are more recent:

http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/hipogtr/gallery/cat3/GR34ENG.jpg
http://home.att.ne.jp/omega/hipogtr/gallery/cat3/GR34EXT.jpg


Cya O!


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

Hipo - that spec is absolutely incredible ... if only you were in the UK so we could all see it.

Must be hell of a buzz driving something like that  

Get some more pictures in the Gallery section for us.

(Now, where'd i put that lottery ticket ? .................)


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Hipogtr,

I have not dynoed my car with the 2835’s.

Once I have tuned it properly with it’s next ECU I will dyno it and post up the graph.

Did Top Secret discuss the exhaust housing size with you before setting the specification, I wondered if the .73 A/R turbine housing might have pulled your boost in a bit earlier without too much of a penalty on power?

Cheers

Hugh


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Gio,

No worries matey.

Just out of interest, why have you changed your oil breather hoses?? I was going to go for Aeroquip type myself, but you have stuck with Silicone, any particular reason??

Oh, and I like the new strut brace, very meaty !! 

J.

Oh, and dont worry about a lottery win Daz. I've got first dibs on Competizione R if it gets the chop !


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

Hugh Keir said:


> *Did Top Secret discuss the exhaust housing size with you before setting the specification, I wondered if the .73 A/R turbine housing might have pulled your boost in a bit earlier without too much of a penalty on power?
> *


Yes, we talked about it. I originally suggested the 0.63 A/R (smallest you can have with the 3037S compressor), however, at the same time I also said that I wanted to be able to make about 850+awhp (all turbo) on race gas at 31psi so the car had 150mph potential in the quarter. From this Top Secret recommended the same 0.87 A/R housing that a lot of the RH9 cars with twin 3037S' run. As this is the first time I've modded a car into this power range, I didn't argue. I'm really note sure how much difference the smaller A/R tubine housing would make. Any ideas?

It will be interesting to see how your 2835s go on the 3.0ltr block. I would imagine that you will be able to see full boost at least 1,500rpms faster than I do. That will be a great package. BTW, is there any reason you didn't opt for the twin 2835Rs? They were one of my initial options.




bladerider said:


> *Just out of interest, why have you changed your oil breather hoses?? I was going to go for Aeroquip type myself, but you have stuck with Silicone, any particular reason??*


Your an observant one, bladey. Top Secret changed the oil breather hoses when I had them make the car "emissions legal". As you can see, the oil bypass gases now redirect into the back turbo intake through the custom piping. Now, I also run with a catalyser and both external wastegates are rerouted into the exhaust. Full on greeney, eh!  LOL! 

Aeroquip lines are good - there are no specific reasons I didn't use them for the breather. I actually use them for fuel lines. You'll be fine with them.

Cya O!


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## GTuned (Mar 21, 2002)

Dino, you beat me to it..

I was about to suggest the exact thing - inventing our own "ultra" high-performance club... Why bother calling it RH9?.. Euro9 or something cheesy like that might do  And we'd have like... 2 cars in the club  'coz we're sooo far behind over here in Europe...

Gio,
What can I say, every time I see your car, "  " is all that I can say! Pretty much *the* most complete all-around super street GTR.


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

hipogtr

It’s a long story, but I originally ordered 2835R’s with the .73 A/R turbine housing, unfortunately the guy I ordered them from sent them in error to an Australian bloke who thought all his Christmases had come at once.

By the time I got to the bottom of what happened and had another set of turbos ordered, I had to take what was available to get the car going for TOTB.

I also do not know how much difference the smaller A/R would make, but I am certain it would improve your pickup and increase the width of your power band. I also have no idea how much power you would loose.

Any chance of asking Top Secret what the effect would be as the question is to me really intriguing, I am sure they will have an opinion if not an exact figure.

Cheers

Hugh


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

Hugh Keir said:


> *Gio,
> What can I say, every time I see your car, " " is all that I can say! Pretty much *the* most complete all-around super street GTR.
> *


Thanx plenty for the feedback again, Guy.  Now all I need to do is steal that sequential box from you! 




Hugh Keir said:


> *Any chance of asking Top Secret what the effect would be as the question is to me really intriguing, I am sure they will have an opinion if not an exact figure.
> *


Hugh, sorry to hear about your troubles with the original. That's the last thing I would've thought of happening. After all, a set of turbos aren't the smallest and cheapest thing to send in the wrong direction.

I'll definitely ask Top Secret the next time I am there. Hopefully, they can give some hard numbers about the difference between the turbine A/Rs and the difference in power between the 2835Rs and the 3037S. I'm with you on the curiosity.

Cya O!


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## DoughBoy_Au (Apr 22, 2004)

Hi guys,
I'm pretty interested in what Top Secret have to say about the .73 A/R on the 3037S. As far as I can tell, the .87 A/R on the 2835R flows the same amount of exhaust gas as the .73 on the 3037S (~20lbs/min) due to the larger wheel on the 3037s. So in effect, it would be the same as a 2835 w/ a 3037S compressor. I wonder if 2835's peak when they do due to compressor limits or exhaust restrictions...
I've got a set of 3037S turbos going on a 3L bottom end, my main concern is compressor surge with the small .73 housings. I'm after peak power @ around 8,000rpm too, not interested in revving to 10K+. What sort of RPM is peak power on your car Hippo/Gio? The dyno graph looks like it wants to keep climbing long after it ends. Btw, awesome car - when I saw your car I couldn't help but drool!


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

DoughBoy_Au,

Ten out of ten for using the search button.

Some interesting points you made.

Where did you get the turbine housing pressure drop data from?

The (~20lbs/min) figure will be at a specific back pressure, I would like to see a copy of any graphs you have access to that can provide more data.

I occasionally have turbo shuffle on my 3 litre OS Giken with .87 a/r turbo housing 2835's when I change gear, caused by the lack of any return piping from the dump valve to the turbo inlet. My Power FC thinks I have used the air vented from the dump valve and adds a bit of fuel to keep the mixture right. There is no shuffle at any other time. The Motec M600 I am about to fit will resolve that issue by deleting the air flow meters.

My guess is that the turbos I have would stand a bigger compressor wheel, much the same as the GT-RS has a smaller turbine housing with the 2835 compressor wheel.

.73 A/R 3037S's are definitely on my things to do soon list.


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## hipogtr (Feb 17, 2002)

DoughBoy_Au said:


> *I'm after peak power @ around 8,000rpm too, not interested in revving to 10K+. What sort of RPM is peak power on your car Hippo/Gio? The dyno graph looks like it wants to keep climbing long after it ends. Btw, awesome car - when I saw your car I couldn't help but drool! *


Thanks for your comments, DoughBoy_Au. Sounds like you've got a interesting build up. Please let us know the engine specs when you get a chance.

Peak power on my engine (ie. 2.8ltr) comes in between 8,600-9,000rpms, depending on the state of tune, cam timing, and boost pressures. I've been fortunate and never had any of the typical turbo issues talked about on this board (ie. shuffle, surge, etc.).

According to Top Secret, if I stepped down from the 0.87A/R to the 0.63A/R (smallest turbine housing for 3037S series), then I could realise approximately 200rpm improvement in spool up with a 40hp peak power penalty (tuning adjusted). Stepping down from the twin 3037S to twin 2835Rs with 0.73A/R turbine housings would net approximately 500rpm gain in spool up at the expense of about 80hp at the top end. These are just round estimates I was provided - I didn't see proof on dyno graphs for a given engine.

Your peak power rpm target on the 3L bottom end with twin 3037S running 0.73 A/R is doable, providing the tuning is right and your cams are not too aggressive (I'm assuming you are AFM-less). Having said that, if you don't mind the peak power penalty, you might have an easier time getting the response you want with twin 2835Rs with 0.73A/R housings.

Cya O!


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## johnnyTightlips (Jun 17, 2003)

so very very clever, you realy are a clever bunch, but hey, when you pay that much for blowers, id wanna know wat was happening under the hood aswel! 

Gio, i preferd the gold volks, lol.


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