# Why is the Gtr handling bad in the wet?



## kk1 (Nov 3, 2009)

Guys as above.

I bought this car based on other 4wd performance cars to be able to drive reasonably fast in the wet,obviously taking into account the condition of the road, traffic, legal constraints, etc.

However I don't remember having the same lack of confidence in those cars.

So is it just the tyres? as others have mentioned or is there anything we can do to the cars to improve wet handling. :flame:


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## waltong (Apr 11, 2008)

Had both Impeza and RS4, both of which I believe are constant 4 wheel drive systems?! Is the R35 not rear wheel until it needs to use the front for traction? I'm sure our technical guys on here will know. BMW also brought out the M3 CSL with a tyre that was great for the track and dry but plain scary in the wet so I'm thinking that maybe an all seasons tyre needs to be available albeit at the cost of some performance.


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

i think a lot of it is also down to tyres - my wife and I both run subarus, a WR1 and a P1 for day to day driving and we once tried them with a set of yokahama parada spec2's - great in the dry but horrible, tippy toey in the wet.- have switched to Goodyear F1's on the WR1 (excellent tyre and my wife feels really comfortable with the car now in all conditions), and falken fk452's on my P1 - a good all round tyre id say.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

You havent really bought a 4wd car.

Attessa means that the car is to all intents and purposes a RWD car that can divert power to the front wheels as required depending on parameters sensed by the car, namely the amount of slip, the angle of the slide, the speed you are going and on the new GTR which "mode" you have the Traction Control set to.

All these things happen once the car starts to lose grip and hence why you may feel less stable to begin with than you may have done in a permanent 4wd car such as a Scooby or Evo. The other most obvious difference is that if you come from a background of 4wd cars like those they will tend to nudge wide and have a more FWD understeer type characteristic where as the GTR does not. It will just need getting used to.

I suspect some of the points made in the discussions about the tyres probably dont help with the feel in the wetter conditions either.

J.


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## kk1 (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks for the replies guys.

looks like I will have to go on " one to one driving day "course in the Gtr.

I think from previous posts it has to be CADT ?


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## kk1 (Nov 3, 2009)

Bladerider

I think you 've hit it on the head.
Not read enough about the technical side of the car before buying it.
Yes just need to get used to it, but saying that its a lot better than the M5 in the same situation.


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## alastairw (Sep 19, 2008)

I did a CAT day this week in the wet in my R35. It was a great learning experience pushing the car hard - definatley different to the dry, but perfectly managable even with the semi slick tyres. I would also suggest keeping the suspension settings soft to improve compliance with the road. In 'R' mode the car was much more difficult to manage.


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## Paul_G (Apr 4, 2008)

I think a lot of you are expecting too much for the conditions. A semi slick tyre designed to run at summer temperatures is never going to give you the grip on a cold winters day, especially when you're trying to put 500bhp through them. 
Personably I'm reasonably happy with the grip in the wet. It's when it's damp with wet leaves on the road that you have to watch out. You either drive to the conditions or find some winter tyres, you can't have it both ways.


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## waltong (Apr 11, 2008)

At £450 a tyre I'd much rather find one that works well all year round! I don't see R8 or Lambo drivers switching tyres at the first sign of a frost! Has anyone found a decent normal tyre? I'll carry a pot of that green gunk and a pump rather than fork out for seasonal run flat tyres!


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## Kurgen (Jul 26, 2008)

This car is not bad in the wet..... I think its good in fact!

I've been out in torential conditions, and have hardly experienced a problem. Maybe just a touch of movement when hitting heavy water on the motoway at speed.. but nothing to worry you!

Yes, the tyres are dry performance orientated, but they are not slicks!!

I think that some owners are just looking to pick on the tiniest of imperfections, whereas to me the car is epic in all conditions.


This old toy of mine was scary in the wet......!!
996GT2 (widowmaker) pushing close to 600bhp. :wavey:


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## Kurgen (Jul 26, 2008)

And for all the girls that don't believe me.... :wavey:

Bruno Senna GTR vs 997 Turbo on a "WET" circuit! 

YouTube - Fifth gear. Bruno Senna compares Nissan GT-R vs 911 turbo


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

i think the cars were on bridgestones back then although i should keep my big mouth shut really because i had a thread on here last year where i was whining that we weren't going to be given the "faster" dunlop tyres as oem in the UK


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Kurgen said:


> And for all the girls that don't believe me.... :wavey:
> 
> Bruno Senna GTR vs 997 Turbo on a "WET" circuit!
> 
> YouTube - Fifth gear. Bruno Senna compares Nissan GT-R vs 911 turbo


Cool vid

But
a) i'm more bruno brookes than bruno senna
b) i cant powerslide my way to work


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## Kurgen (Jul 26, 2008)

misters3 said:


> Cool vid
> 
> But
> a) i'm more bruno brookes than bruno senna
> b) i cant powerslide my way to work


use the 335d in your profile for the wet work run..


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Kurgen said:


> use the 335d in your profile for the wet work run..


I do, but it's often wet in Glasgow i.e when i'm not going to/from work and want to enjoy the car  

But if the way it is, is the way it is...fair enough. 

I just wonder what F1's would be like on the GTR in the wet. If you're saying no real world diff that would be something.


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## Kurgen (Jul 26, 2008)

seriously guys, the GTR is a pussycat in the wet..

try qualifying on "slicks" in a 997 cup car with sequential gearbox, where every downshift needs to be heel and toe perfect, no abs.. and it starts to rain! 

Rob


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Kurgen said:


> seriously guys, the GTR is a pussycat in the wet..
> 
> try qualifying on "slicks" in a 997 cup car with sequential gearbox, where every downshift needs to be heel and toe perfect, no abs.. and it starts to rain!
> 
> Rob


Watch what Bruno has to say about the GTR v Porsche in the wet about 1min in  

YouTube - EPISODE FIVE: BEHIND THE SCENES - BRUNO SENNA


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## Kurgen (Jul 26, 2008)

misters3 said:


> Watch what Bruno has to say about the GTR v Porsche in the wet about 1min in
> 
> YouTube - EPISODE FIVE: BEHIND THE SCENES - BRUNO SENNA


lol

All dry - track orientated tyres are going to have some downside in wet conditions.. try a GT3 or GT2 with Michelin "cup" tyres.

The car is still a pussycat, because the 4wd system overcomes most of the downside.

Porsche was prob running pilot sport or similar, which are more all round road orientated, but the GTR still put in the quicker lap time in the wet.

For me this car is still epic in all conditions .. I have the most fun, in the wet, on road.. getting it to slide in 2nd/3rd!


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Was that Ben's car with the Cooper tyres?

I find the car very un-epic in standing water, and epic everywhere else.


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

looking at the weather forecast........ we'll have plenty of opportunity to test this in Wales:nervous:


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## dwreid (Mar 2, 2008)

Kurgen said:


> This car is not bad in the wet..... I think its good in fact!
> 
> I've been out in torential conditions, and have hardly experienced a problem. Maybe just a touch of movement when hitting heavy water on the motoway at speed.. but nothing to worry you!
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more. Brought back memories of my Race Academy day at Silverstone. The Ferrari and Porsche driver training guys were all sent home, all other motor sport events cancelled, the GT-R Race Academy was the only one that let cars venture on track. And it was only mildly damp by West of Scotland standards


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

Kurgen said:


> seriously guys, the GTR is a pussycat in the wet..
> 
> try qualifying on "slicks" in a 997 cup car with sequential gearbox, where every downshift needs to be heel and toe perfect, no abs.. and it starts to rain!
> 
> Rob


Sorry guys have to disagree.

I have had a 997 Turbo and M3 CSL both with "Cups" on and although they were bad in the wet the GTR is 5 x worse.

I went from lane 3 on the motorway to lane 1 after going through what was a very small amount of standing water at 75mph that i am afraid is not good.

I live i Scotland, we are used to the torrential rain and snow remember and i have driven 420 bhp rear wheel drive cars with better grip (New M3) than my current GTR has.

Maybe the rain down South isn't wet enough for you guys to have been frightened yet.....lol....


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## Red Rag (Jul 9, 2009)

Kurgen said:


> This car is not bad in the wet..... I think its good in fact!
> 
> I've been out in torential conditions, and have hardly experienced a problem. Maybe just a touch of movement when hitting heavy water on the motoway at speed.. but nothing to worry you!
> 
> ...


I totally agree with Kurgen. Completed a 200 mile round trip across Wales last Thursday, in torrential conditions. Included, A roads, B roads, hill roads, mud covered roads, roads with standing water etc etc. 

The car aquaplaned a little in standing water and also was slighlty skittish where there were rivers running off the hills across the roads but nothing unpredictable or dangerous. 

The overall level of grip was very impressive and I was able to keep up a very decent pace. 

Car is epic in all conditions. 

Settings were Normal : Comfort : Normal


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

bladerider said:


> You havent really bought a 4wd car.
> 
> Attessa means that the car is to all intents and purposes a RWD car that can divert power to the front wheels as required depending on parameters sensed by the car, namely the amount of slip, the angle of the slide, the speed you are going and on the new GTR which "mode" you have the Traction Control set to.
> 
> ...


R8 & Lambo drivers don't drive their "temperamental” machines in the wet LOL They have them in heated air conditioned garages. 

Yes, I have said more than a million times and as Bladerunner points out to all those critics who want to tell me about my electronic car that IT IS NOT FOUR WHEEL DRIVE !!! It is predominantly a rear wheel drive car which uses the Attessa system to shift power and drive to the front wheels and tyres for MORE grip, As he also says you just need to get used to it and the slow in, fast out mechanism of cornering doesn’t have to be strictly applied as the fast in, faster out works (in the dry) when you have confidence!


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## ASIF (Jan 14, 2008)

ScottyB said:


> Sorry guys have to disagree.
> 
> I have had a 997 Turbo and M3 CSL both with "Cups" on and although they were bad in the wet the GTR is 5 x worse.
> 
> ...



UNFORTUNATLEY AGREE WITH YOU 100%


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

I tried a set of "cups" on my R33 GTR and they were cr*p even in the dry !!! Couldn't handle the power. The R35 on RE070's isnt bad considering they are 285 rear and 255 front Track orientaed tyres !


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

Given that the performance of any vehicle in the wet is governed by the type of tyre and set up of the vehicle,as well as driver ability and several other matters including the particular piece of tarmac you are driving on,
I would have thought then that a comparison should be about the same tyre,on the same car,on the same piece of tarmac,being driven by the same driver,in the same conditions.ie on a probably only ever going to occur on a race circuit on the same day by the same driver using the same car/set up but with different tyres/tyre pressures etc.
It therefore seems to me that it is incorrect/irrelevant to brand a car as being 'crap in the wet' when the benchmark against which it is being compared is not a fair one.
I think it is more useful, to talk about a particular type of tyre,being used on a particular car,in either a general performance way (every day driving), or being used in a specific way ie.being used on a particular circuit,in a certain type of weather.A good example would be to take 3 brand new gtr's all with the same tyre pressures etc and using the same driver take one around donnington park in the wet,another around oulton park in the wet and another around silverstone in the wet. You would be able to draw very different conclusuions depending upon the circuit !Factor in different drivers with different driving styles etc and the comparison again makes no sense. 
I personaly think the standard gtr is a very good car in either the wet or dry on the standard tyres across a wide spectrum of differing driving conditions,others will no doubt have a different view given the conditions etc they have encountered.Both opinions are valid but I personaly think that because of the variables concerned neither one is necessarily right.


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

MSM said:


> Given that the performance of any vehicle in the wet is governed by the type of tyre and set up of the vehicle,as well as driver ability and several other matters including the particular piece of tarmac you are driving on,
> I would have thought then that a comparison should be about the same tyre,on the same car,on the same piece of tarmac,being driven by the same driver,in the same conditions.ie on a probably only ever going to occur on a race circuit on the same day by the same driver using the same car/set up but with different tyres/tyre pressures etc.
> It therefore seems to me that it is incorrect/irrelevant to brand a car as being 'crap in the wet' when the benchmark against which it is being compared is not a fair one.
> I think it is more useful, to talk about a particular type of tyre,being used on a particular car,in either a general performance way (every day driving), or being used in a specific way ie.being used on a particular circuit,in a certain type of weather.A good example would be to take 3 brand new gtr's all with the same tyre pressures etc and using the same driver take one around donnington park in the wet,another around oulton park in the wet and another around silverstone in the wet. You would be able to draw very different conclusuions depending upon the circuit !Factor in different drivers with different driving styles etc and the comparison again makes no sense.
> I personaly think the standard gtr is a very good car in either the wet or dry on the standard tyres across a wide spectrum of differing driving conditions,others will no doubt have a different view given the conditions etc they have encountered.Both opinions are valid but I personaly think that because of the variables concerned neither one is necessarily right.


I guess you've not hit a little water on the motorway at legal speeds and slid sideways yet.


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

misters3 said:


> I guess you've not hit a little water on the motorway at legal speeds and slid sideways yet.


No you'r right ,I havn't.At least not in my gtr,but I did once do a very graceful 'drift' across 3 lanes of motorway in a 996 GT3.
Standing water/emergency braking,late at night etc etc.... scared the c...p out of me but it didn't mean that the car was bad in the wet. Just meant that given those conditions ie temperature,tarmac,contamination the tyre let go.The rest was then up to the laws of physics.
If I thought that my car was unpredictable and could spit me into oblivion every time it rained and i wanted to go fast I could do several things :-
Slow down/alter my driving style
Sell it !!
Change the tyre/suspension set up, or,
if it was a generic fault with the car perhaps ,send it back to the manufacturer as not fit for purpose ???

I don't dispute that some people have/are finding their cars difficult in certain circumstances,but are we comparing apples with apples? ie, are all the cars/drivers finding it a handfull? But are all the cars on the same tyre/suspension set up ? do these traits appear all the time/every time its wet ? are all the drivers of equal ability ?were tarmac conditions like for like?

In my opinion ,the car is not a bad handling car in the rain,and . I do agree tho' that the standard fitment tyre whilst good perhaps in the dry ,has its limits when pushed in the wet by a 500hp, 1700kg, monster !


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

MSM said:


> No you'r right ,I havn't.At least not in my gtr,but I did once do a very graceful 'drift' across 3 lanes of motorway in a 996 GT3.
> Standing water/emergency braking,late at night etc etc.... scared the c...p out of me but it didn't mean that the car was bad in the wet. Just meant that given those conditions ie temperature,tarmac,contamination the tyre let go.The rest was then up to the laws of physics.
> If I thought that my car was unpredictable and could spit me into oblivion every time it rained and i wanted to go fast I could do several things :-
> Slow down/alter my driving style
> ...


I set cruise control at 70 on my trip from Southport to Glasgow a few weeks back. I was getting passed by cars doing 100. 

I'd set off from Glasgow at 5am, played a 5.5 hour round in 50mph winds, and was driving back the same day. I should have been tired. ButI was was WIDE awake. It was on the M6/M74. 2 pretty decent stretches of motorway. I just had no confidence in the car. I had susp on comf.

BTW I love my car. Problem is i got it in September and i'm itching to get out and drive it all the time, and most of the dry miles i got where pre-op. So i have to really curb my enthusiasm to keep it in one piece or at least thats how it feels. Saying that i'll reckon i'll be fitting Whiteline rear ARB to dial out the understeer that i'm getting at the mo.


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## Guibo (Aug 19, 2009)

MSM said:


> I do agree tho' that the standard fitment tyre whilst good perhaps in the dry ,has its limits when pushed in the wet by a 500hp, *1700kg*, monster !


I wonder if the mass has a lot to do with it. In the dry, the mass can help keep the tire firmly planted on the pavement. The normal force multiplied by coefficient of friction generates grip that belies the mass (which also wants to be forced outward against centripetal forces). Now when it's wet, the coefficient of friction is much less. So the effect of the mass wanting to push outside of the turn is much greater relative to when it's pushing down in the dry, and greater relative to a lighter car.
The tires could have a lot to do with this as well. The tread pattern, the construction. Automobile Magazine was invited to compare the Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 on Corvettes (PS2 ZP runflats are a standard fit for the ZR1 and they have just been released in Z06 sizes). They tried both the ZP runflat and the non runflat tires in both dry and wet conditions. In the wet, they felt the non runflat tires were more predictable and catchable than the ZP's, which have a stiffer sidewall.
On top of this, the GT-R's weight distribution isn't that great, with 45% over the rear tires. Porsche Carreras even equipped with Pilot Sport Cups have outrun the GT-R on Sport Auto's wet handling track; they are faster than the AWD Porsche Turbo too, which seems to support the weight issue. 
Not much one can do about the weight distribution, but it's worth looking into the all-season Dunlops, which give up only 3 seconds vs the SP Sport 600 DSST's on a 3-minute track (according to Car & Driver's testing). One might also consider the Pirelli P Zeros as used in the Evo COTY article, and used by the Nissan Academy. The softer sidewalls will lose some sharp steering response, but should allow some "give" to improve wet-weather grip. Evo noted that with these tires, the GT-R on its hardest suspension setting felt more compliant than on the softest setting with OEM dry performance tires. The additional grooves will also help limit hydroplaning.


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## Portnoy (Nov 28, 2007)

It's curious that in the various threads about tyres, handling in the wet etc. there are plenty of war stories, but no-one (except ScottyB, perhaps understandably!) says how fast they were going.

I've driven mine (totally standard car) in some terrible rain, including lots of standing water, and felt very confident, had no worries. One little wobble on a corner of a country road I drive down every day, sorted by the car itself with no drama, when I know I was going much faster than I would ever have dared in those conditions in the Z06.

I've spun an M5 on a straight dual carriageway. The Z06 feels hairy in any standing water - so I slow down a lot and consider it payment for all the fun when the roads are drive.

For the GT-R, I suspect some people are expecting too much. If there's standing water all over a motorway causing cars to shift lanes involuntarily (pretty dangerous really!), the drivers are going too fast. Forget the speed limit, they're going too fast for the conditions. Certainly, in my experience the GT-R is quicker in the very wet than most cars, but it ain't magic.

Seems a shame to promote the idea that the GT-R can't cope with rain, when it's a lot better than most cars in equivalent conditions - in my experience.

Of course, there may be better tyres available...


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

Portnoy said:


> It's curious that in the various threads about tyres, handling in the wet etc. there are plenty of war stories, but no-one (perhaps understandably!) says how fast they were going.
> 
> I've driven mine (totally standard car) in some terrible rain, including lots of standing water, and felt very confident, had no worries. One little wobble on a corner of a country road I drive down every day, sorted by the car itself with no drama, when I know I was going much faster than I would ever have dared in those conditions in the Z06.
> 
> ...


RTFT.........

Read back a few replis and you will see that i told everyone exactly what speed i was doing when i went from Lane 3 to Lane 1.

The scarey thing is that the road conditions were not that bad and it was a tiny amount of standing water, to put it into context bikers were going faster than me!!

Sorry to burst your bubble but although i drive fast when road conditions allow, this was not one of those occasions.

Anyone in any doubt should watch my youtube videos and then tell me if they think a GTR handles perfectly well in the wet, a picture paints a thousand words and all that.

Quarter throttle with the car in Normal VDC mode and the back end should NOT be stepping out on you.

I suspect it is my suspension set up for the dry and tyres needing replaced, however this was NOT the case during my little incident on the Motorway the car was standard at the time so no excuses for it then i am afraid.

Regards

ScottyB


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

On my fairly fresh Dunlops, the only issue is standing water. On a simply wet road without a river across it I can get a stable 0.9g threshold braking, and about 0.7g acceleration without too much slip. However, hit a puddle or river at 40mph even and it can be hairy where other normal cars are easily going through it.


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

thistle said:


> On my fairly fresh Dunlops, the only issue is standing water. On a simply wet road without a river across it I can get a stable 0.9g threshold braking, and about 0.7g acceleration without too much slip. However, hit a puddle or river at 40mph even and it can be hairy where other normal cars are easily going through it.


John, how about cornering in the wet? Do you find it neutral, understeery or tail happy? in comparison to other cars which are more able in the wet eg RS4 A sort of constant speed cornering comparison. I have my thoughts, but i've not had much space to test my theory.


Before i get pulled up for asking the above by someone  I realise going too fast into a corner results in understeer and putting power down too early oversteer in pretty much any rwd car. So that's not what i'm getting at.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

I find it pretty neutral with constant cornering speed, I don't mind it being tail led like an Evo, it doesn't feel RWD to me, the torque distribution moves quickly and pro-actively. But if you have standing water and you have any boost whilst trying to overtake someone, then the back end steps out towards the person you're overtaking 

I have also tried snow mode in the wet, it is a bit more stable, more torque goes to the front proactively.

I'm convinced it is tyre tread pattern, the compound seems surprisingly good if it is just wet or cold.


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

ScottyB said:


> RTFT.........
> 
> Read back a few replis and you will see that i told everyone exactly what speed i was doing when i went from Lane 3 to Lane 1.
> 
> ...


Scotty,
I watched your youtube video, to be honest your car seemed to be going quite well compared to some others ! 
That's not the issue tho' the issue is ,is the GTr a car that will handle poorly in wet conditions regardless of what tyre's you have on,regardless of the suspension/car setup,regardless of the manner it is being driven and regardless of the type of road/track surface.
If the answer is yes to all of the questions(and some i've missed off) only then is it fair to brand a car as being one that doesn't handle in the wet.
I don't know how or why you and some others have had the incidents you describe. But I am inclined to believe your incidents were isolated ,and caused by a number of unfortunate factors occurring all at the same time,rather than generic failings of the car. 
Given the no of cars sold I think we would have heard more about it by now if it was the case that the cars were generically so unpredictable/difficult/dangerous to drive in all wet conditions.
Look whats happened over an expensive bumper/bonnet repair.If thats the scale of uproar over a 'small' issue,imagine what it would be like if we all had paid £50 - 60k for a performance car that just can't be driven in the rain without fear of crashing!


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

scotty, having watched you flying round knockhill, i know exactly where you're coming from. - the car looked a hell of a twitchy coming outa the bends, and you could almost have been in the cockpit as the car was gingerly guided round the hairpin onto the home straight. - maybe an excuse for some more whiteline stuff????????


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## bobd (Mar 25, 2008)

thistle said:


> I find it pretty neutral with constant cornering speed, I don't mind it being tail led like an Evo, it doesn't feel RWD to me, the torque distribution moves quickly and pro-actively. But if you have standing water and you have any boost whilst trying to overtake someone, then the back end steps out towards the person you're overtaking
> 
> I have also tried snow mode in the wet, it is a bit more stable, more torque goes to the front proactively.
> 
> I'm convinced it is tyre tread pattern, the compound seems surprisingly good if it is just wet or cold.


As stated I would agree that its not the compound. I recently drove to a nearby track steadily in the pouring rain and had two big four wheel slides at 30-40 mph on the public road. I then took my ARDS test at the circuit theory first and then the practical laps at a steady pace. The instructor wanted me to drive in my car - fine I thought here come the slides. Comfort mode, steady throttle inputs and short shifting were the order of the day with speeds in excess of 100mph in similar conditions to what I had travelled there in. As a comparison, when I did the race academy at Silverstone it was absolutely lashing on the way to the circuit and my CSL did a one lane aquaplane on Conti sport 2s. So in the same conditions at the circuit I was pleased to be doing mega speed down hangar straight in an inch of lying water on the Pirellis they had for the event. If I were to compare the two tyres in the same conditions, which some of you have requested then I can report that the Pirellis win hands down in these conditions. I dont have a problem with the Dunlops,but this car needs a year round tread pattern if it is to be used as advertised ie daily throughout the winter. My CSL was used daily, which is why it didnt have cup tyres. I feel that Nissan should offer a winter option for SAY £2200.00 Wheels and tyres for current owners. This was the case with the beemer. All my previous TVRs had two sets, one for track/summer and one for the daily drive.
WDYT?


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

MSM said:


> Scotty,
> I watched your youtube video, to be honest your car seemed to be going quite well compared to some others !
> That's not the issue tho' the issue is ,is the GTr a car that will handle poorly in wet conditions regardless of what tyre's you have on,regardless of the suspension/car setup,regardless of the manner it is being driven and regardless of the type of road/track surface.
> If the answer is yes to all of the questions(and some i've missed off) only then is it fair to brand a car as being one that doesn't handle in the wet.
> ...


MSM,

I think the best way to convince you is nice and simple.

I extend a public invitation to you to dry my car in the rain, if after you have done this you think it is "safe" i will quite happily make a large donation to charity.

Can't say fairer than that.

Let me know when you are able to come to Scotland, don't worry about rain that is guaranteed..........

All i can say is that i have an extensive history in VERY fast cars in the wet, i don't want this to turn into my you know what is bigger than yours etc but here are a few examples.

997 Turbo (Not standard)
M3 CSL - Supercharged with Michelin Cups driven daily
Again far from standard RB320

I am also a biker well before a car driver and seriously i would be more comfortable on my bike in the wet than my car and that is not right.

Hopefully the guys on the forum will chip in here and also confirm that i am no mug when it comes to driving my car having featured in the final of this years race academy and some of them having seen me in action at Millbrook.

Trust me when i say the GTR is a complete "dog" in the wet, come up and i will prove it to you.........

Regards

ScottyB


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

Hi Scotty,

Be honest now, after the millbrook bowl (which we both did at almost the same speed....) have you taken out the inside edge of your drivers side rear tyre? Also how much tread have you got left?
These factors do need to be taken into consideration.

I have been caught out with aquaplaning but was driving to fast for the conditions - lets face it its not difficult to do

I agree that the all weather Dunlops should be available, as summer tyres can be a real handfull at winter temperatures especially before they are warmed up.Shame you can't buy them yet.

Cheers




Paul


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## bobd (Mar 25, 2008)

ScottyB said:


> MSM,
> 
> I think the best way to convince you is nice and simple.
> 
> ...


I think we are somewhere near the same latitude Scotty and guess what its lashing it down here too - one fine day in two weeks is not Dunlop oe driving weather. We need a better tyre fitting to this beast. Perhaps we could just move to Porti Mao and use the bikes and the car all week that would do nicely


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

ScottyB said:


> MSM,
> 
> I think the best way to convince you is nice and simple.
> 
> ...


Scotty,
I would love to come and spend some time in your wonderful country :thumbsup:
But Honestly I cannot take up the challenge ! There is no way I could possibly ''dry'' your car in the rain


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

bobd said:


> I think we are somewhere near the same latitude Scotty and guess what its lashing it down here too - one fine day in two weeks is not Dunlop oe driving weather. We need a better tyre fitting to this beast. Perhaps we could just move to Porti Mao and use the bikes and the car all week that would do nicely


Now your talking, will bin the wife and get myself a wee lovely down there as well, utter bliss.......


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

70mph on a flat, wet motorway, entered a gentle left hander in outside lane, became a sphincter twitching 4 wheel drift under gentle throttle.

I was doing 70 since I'd had a serious issue further up that same motorway a week before.

All of you who doubt these tyres in the wet will have your moments, guaranteed.

And as for Scotty...


You're a legend bro, cant wait for another day sniffing petrol fumes with you!


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## ScottyB (Jun 9, 2009)

MSM said:


> Scotty,
> I would love to come and spend some time in your wonderful country :thumbsup:
> But Honestly I cannot take up the challenge ! There is no way I could possibly ''dry'' your car in the rain


LOL typing was never my strong point but at least you knew what i meant.....lol

But if you drive it fast enough it would dry.......


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## kevinsmart (Mar 31, 2008)

Is the AutoCar Wet Lap Time round MIRA not an objective indication of just how poor the GT-R's wet weather performance is on Dunlop's?

It posted 1m 14.2s, that's slower than an Hyundai!

Car Time

Audi RS4 1.06.4

Ford Focus ST 1.07.3

VW Golf GTi 1.07.5

Vauxhall Astra VXR 1.07.6

Lotus Elise 111R 1.08.25

Peugeot 207 GTi 175 1.08.3

BMW M5 1.08.35

Aston V8 Vantage Cpe 1.08.78

BMW X5 3.0d 1.09.19

Porsche 911 Carrera S 1.09.2

Ferrari 599GTB 1.09.87

Vauxhall VXR8 1.09.9

Ford Mondeo 2.oTDCi 1.09.9

Aston V8 Vantage Rstr 1.10.02

Fiat Bravo 1.4 Tjet 1.10.65

Volvo V70 D5 1.11.2

Renault Twingo 1.2 1.11.3

Lotus 2-Eleven 1.11.5

Porsche 911 Turbo 1.11.54

Fiat 500 1.4 Lounge 1.12.5

Hyundai I30 1.14.15

Lamborghini LP640 1.16.5

Porsche 911 GT3 1.19.1

Alfa Spider 2.2 JTS 1.19.6


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## Lindsay Mac (Apr 12, 2008)

Some interesting slow times there for some fast machinery.

Does this mean there are 2 R35s in Falkirk??


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## kevinsmart (Mar 31, 2008)

Lindsay Mac said:


> Some interesting slow times there for some fast machinery.
> 
> Does this mean there are 2 R35s in Falkirk??



I've heard that there may be another black car about. Mine was probably one of the first as I've had it since April. 

Will look out for you, although car will be garaged over the winter when they start gritting the roads!


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

If anyone wants to bring a Renault Twingo or Fiat 500 to Angelsey this wet weekend I will be happy to thrash the pants off them.


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

paul__k said:


> If anyone wants to bring a Renault Twingo or Fiat 500 to Angelsey this wet weekend I will be happy to thrash the pants off them.


what a great thread

now I have an excuse for my usual, less than rapid, performance :chuckle:


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## white gtr 35 (May 2, 2009)

I certainly find it a little frisky in the wet..... it also gets dirty when it rains and might shrink..... so I play in the scooby. More predictable for me and (cheaper to repair me thinks)

and while we are on the subject what the hell are those gritters going to do to our beloved soft paint work:nervous:


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## turbobungle (Mar 18, 2008)

misters3 said:


> Cool vid
> b) i cant powerslide my way to work


rubbish, you can powerslide everywhere! :thumbsup:


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## turbobungle (Mar 18, 2008)

dwreid said:


>


what a fantastic pic! :thumbsup: 
if anyone thinks the GTR is bad in the wet, try a 450-500bhp Supra with Toyo R888 tyres!!! Snapping sideways in 5th at 100 plus in a straight line is interesting!

I find that if you expect your car to slide at all times, you don't get caught out as you're not surprised by it! Maybe 160 in the wet was pushing it a bit though, you should've seen the rooster tail, it was like the Bluebird on Coniston lake!!


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

turbobungle, kn0w what you mean about the supe mate 0 loads of good rearout and snap action with those sorts of power levels - mine was sittign at 540bhp and was loads of fun - just not in the wet though........, if you know what i mean.......


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

Here's a scenario for you :-
We are team GTR and we have entered an open international endurance event.
The event is open to all vehicles but the vehicle must be road legal in order to compete.We are allowed to use as many drivers as we wish.
We have arrived at the track and set up in our garage,our car has been scrutineered and is ready to go !
We have two 3hr free practice sessions split over Thur & Fri, we then have a 1 Hr qualifying session on the sat ,followed by race start later in the day.

Thur morning arrives,it is dry and the air temp is average, so we send driver one out (Scotty B),over the course of the next 45 mins we get what we think is a good setting.Several more drivers go out and we finish the session pleased with our general set up.
Our car is fast enough to put us on the front row of the grid,our car is using the standard fitment tyre with some suspension changes.
Fri morning arrives and it is cold and peeing down.So we decide to start the session on the worn standard tyres already fitted to the car and leave the suspension the same as we finished on yesterday.Again the first driver goes out (scotty b), but after 6 laps he comes in ! It handles ''like a dog'' is the feedback from the driver.
We then decide to fit an almost new set of standard tyres and return the suspension to our base setting (Average post op settings).We send another driver (Thistle) out and he comes back in saying it's OK but he feels the car is understeering a little.
Several more drivers go out and we get a mixed set of feedback from them.Some saying they felt the car was ok,some saying it was completely losing traction and sliding in places.The bottom line though is we are right down the timing sheets .(Autocar test) with a best time of 1min 14sec.
Although we are very dissapointed we also know that several of our main rivals ( Porsche,lambo etc) are also struggling with the wet conditions.
We check the weather forecasts and we are told it is going to be a mixed day with rain and sunshine. We know then that we have to come up with a settup for all conditions.We might have to compromise our dry weather dominance for an all round performance.
So here's the question :- What do we do next,we can choose from any road legal tyre out there and, are allowed as many suspension mods as we like as long as the car was still road legal,
What would you do next? and what if any solid evidence supports the change. ie has someone tried out a set of ??????? and shown they perform well in the dry and wet,backed up by times from both. The same applies to suspension.Or is it the case that we simply have a car that's blisteringly fast in the dry but cannot be made to perform in the wet.(ie its the car rather than the tyre etc)
Answers on a postcard ????/


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

MSM said:


> Or is it the case that we simply have a car that's blisteringly fast in the dry but cannot be made to perform in the wet.(ie its the car rather than the tyre etc)


How could that possibly be the case?

Philip


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Put ater best dry weather driver in the cockpit when dry and the best wet weather driver in the boot for when it rains !! LOL Nothing wrong with the car, but the tyres can be a handful in the rain as all us R35 driver are aware. As you alspo say other cars were also suffering so it's down to driver skill and not falling off the black stuff


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

Only a poor carpenter blames his tools


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

infamous_t said:


> Only a poor carpenter blames his tools


How true!
I was expecting a bit more of a positive response from the people who branded the car a poor one in the wet ????


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

like any car, you have to drive it within its capabilities within the conditions on the road........


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

You can exclude the driver aspect when you can take a GTR through standing water in a straight line at steady throttle and it aquaplanes at a lower speed than other cars do. I don't think there is anything wrong with the car, but I believe the stock Dunlops are dangerous in standing water.

Like some others, I've been around and tuned enough performance cars in bad conditions (I've driven all mine year round in Scotland) to recognise out of the ordinary tyre behaviour. If you've not had a moment with them, take this as a warning, as they let go well below expectations in standing water.

In simple terms, follow a Citroen Xsara Picasso through standing water at a speed that doesn't make it flinch, and you could be off the road.

I'm pretty sure it is not the car since if the surface is wet but not with standing water it performs well. I think it is the wild tread pattern (or lack of it) on the shoulders.


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

sounds pretty hairy............!!!!:runaway:


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

thistle said:


> You can exclude the driver aspect when you can take a GTR through standing water in a straight line at steady throttle and it aquaplanes at a lower speed than other cars do. I don't think there is anything wrong with the car, but I believe the stock Dunlops are dangerous in standing water.
> 
> Like some others, I've been around and tuned enough performance cars in bad conditions (I've driven all mine year round in Scotland) to recognise out of the ordinary tyre behaviour. If you've not had a moment with them, take this as a warning, as they let go well below expectations in standing water.
> 
> ...


Like supracat sais It sounds Hairy,got me thinking twice about taking it out in the rain !!!
Is there a solution though? has anybody tried an alternative and got some recommendations ?


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## sin (Dec 3, 2007)

My general driving in wet conditions is usually pretty sensible (usually), but on one occasion bouncing down with rain M6 toll road (south bound), slightly above legal speed limit, scared myself silly when it starting to aqua plane. Something i wasnt really expecting, think that made it scarier. 

Saying that, i aint really had a problem in general wet weather driving since. It certainly doesnt stop me taking the car out in the rain, but it does make me more aware of my speed & conditions.


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## srandall (Mar 31, 2006)

I have driven on a variety of roads today, including the M25, in poring rain and in a spirited fashion, and the handling doesn't seem to bad to me. On roads that are just wet, I really do not think the car has a problem.

After some of the posts, I did hold my breath every time I saw a patch of standing water in front of me on the motorway. However I didn't have a problem. I don't know if I was just lucky, or if it is to do with the way I was lifting off the power before hitting the water.


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## UnionJackJim (May 31, 2009)

srandall said:


> I have driven on a variety of roads today, including the M25, in poring rain and in a spirited fashion, and the handling doesn't seem to bad to me. On roads that are just wet, I really do not think the car has a problem.
> 
> After some of the posts, I did hold my breath every time I saw a patch of standing water in front of me on the motorway. However I didn't have a problem. I don't know if I was just lucky, or if it is to do with the way I was lifting off the power before hitting the water.


Could be , when I lost it I had the cruise control on , that might be why it caught me out , as I did not expect it , wish I had read this thread first , or RTFI , LOL . perhapse if the cruise was not on , I would have probally let off the gas and would have saved sending the whole contents of everyones crisps & m&m's / drinks around the inside of a very clean GT-R  , ps my tyres are in good condition as not been tracked as yet & only 3200 road miles :thumbsup:


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## kpkpkp (Dec 1, 2007)

misters3 said:


> I guess you've not hit a little water on the motorway at legal speeds and slid sideways yet.


Yeah happened to me in my GTR the other day . . . .







. . . . and to me in my 911, my M3, my Scooby and every other car I have owned and had to drive in standing water - except my wife's X5 with 22" wheels, I have just driven it back 11 miles accross country roads inches deep in muddy water - it is just unreal.

The GTR is wicked in the wet providing you turn in smoothly and then get on the gas.

Kp


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Mines been hammerd round the roads in the wet lots of times ,it's very good ,Bridgestones seem fine .


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## GTRAM (May 6, 2008)

weve had one of the wettest days ever and i've been driving all day in the car. Just finished 500miles of wet

1. I am surprised that people consider it difficult in the wet i find it looks after itself very well. 

2, Remember that it does have the traction control which when one wheel hits the water first the car will wiggle but the others balance soon

3. On a wet day if im getting on I put the traction control on R as it has less intervention and so less wiggle in the puddles but still looks after you.

4. In total standing water as on the A40 in the cotswolds tonight the traction controll in normal still allowed me to haul alot of ass on the roundabout on the entrance to the Witney bypass.


So for me the car is superb in the wet when on the roads rather than track and for me that keeps me happy and its not going away for the winter.


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## waltong (Apr 11, 2008)

I think the R35's four wheel drive system (rear wheel and 4 wheel when it all goes wrong) is probably something we all need to get used to? However smart the system is, any little loss of grip before it kicks in is going to be a worrying feeling. I've come from a Subaru and an RS4 which behave totally different. 

That said, there should be more choice of tyres. Clearly if the car is aquaplaning in a straight line the tyre is not doing its job properly. I would rather see a tyre that will work well all year round even at the expense of a bit of speed and grip in the dry.


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

waltong said:


> I think the R35's four wheel drive system (rear wheel and 4 wheel when it all goes wrong) is probably something we all need to get used to? However smart the system is, any little loss of grip before it kicks in is going to be a worrying feeling. I've come from a Subaru and an RS4 which behave totally different.
> 
> That said, there should be more choice of tyres. Clearly if the car is aquaplaning in a straight line the tyre is not doing its job properly. I would rather see a tyre that will work well all year round even at the expense of a bit of speed and grip in the dry.


+1 :thumbsup:


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## supracat (Feb 12, 2008)

waltong said:


> I think the R35's four wheel drive system (rear wheel and 4 wheel when it all goes wrong) is probably something we all need to get used to? However smart the system is, any little loss of grip before it kicks in is going to be a worrying feeling. I've come from a Subaru and an RS4 which behave totally different.
> 
> That said, there should be more choice of tyres. Clearly if the car is aquaplaning in a straight line the tyre is not doing its job properly. I would rather see a tyre that will work well all year round even at the expense of a bit of speed and grip in the dry.



totally agree, and see my post earlier - tyres are a key component here guys.:thumbsup:


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## kk1 (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi folks.

My original question seems to have started an interesting and heated debate ,which is a good thing.

I would like to say that I am personally happy with the cars wet handling aside from standing water which would affect other big tyre cars as well.

The feeling that I got for a nano second or so when I thought I lost the car as I was overtaking a car on a dual carriage way when it was raining hard was what prompted me to post this thread. However , the way the 4wd system responded after that suggests to me I have to get used to the handling characteristic of this car since it is not permanently 4wd.

I also feel that we need a larger chioce of tyres for this car especially for rain.


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## Kamae (Jun 15, 2009)

waltong; I don't see R8 or Lambo drivers switching tyres at the first sign of a frost! [/QUOTE said:


> Ha ha ha
> have you ever tried to drive a Lamborghini in the frost!!!!?????
> 
> :chairshot


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## waltong (Apr 11, 2008)

Kamae said:


> Ha ha ha
> have you ever tried to drive a Lamborghini in the frost!!!!?????
> 
> :chairshot


No...but i'd give it a go! I cant believe anything that Audi are involved in is going to be too much of a drama!


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## GTRAM (May 6, 2008)

Kamae said:


> Ha ha ha
> have you ever tried to drive a Lamborghini in the frost!!!!?????
> 
> :chairshot


Might have been a frosty reception on this guys big day.

Bridegroom crashes £250,000 Lamborghini on way to church - Telegraph

Couldn't resist it. 

:thumbsup:


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## Portnoy (Nov 28, 2007)

Presumably the Lambo forums are now buzzing with how their cars don't handle in the dry either.


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## Kamae (Jun 15, 2009)

Let's see, extra wide tyres, 500+ horse power and rear wheel drive (in some models)

Let's hope you have space to get used to the reverse lock power slides before you run our of road!

Audi may be clever, but there are some simple laws of physics applying here and the traction control is going to reign all of that in to keep you on the road you're going to notice some limits on the power.

Compared to other cars I've owned the GTR isn't bad in the wet, and although I've never taken a Lambo to the road in the wet or the dry I would bet it's considerably harder work!


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## NINEIR0N (Oct 5, 2009)

I also have a M400,The GTR in the wet is a dream compared to that little rascal! Its all about the RWD.Even if you floor it in the wet there is no way the GTR will be naughty enough to get you into trouble....With the TC on.The power will fade or the 4WD will kick in.I'm no Jensen Button but its only what I can pass on. The M400 comes with the PirreliPzero which is so much better in the rain!


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## Godders (Oct 7, 2009)

... I love my GTR in the wet. It's so playable and predictable. The only challenge is getting the damn thing clean again before I put it away. It aquaplanes less then my 3 series that’s for sure. Sure you have to be a little bit more gentle and smooth but that’s just physics, is it not?


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## kpkpkp (Dec 1, 2007)

Went from Portsmouth to Surrey today in the pouring rain, it tipped it down to the point I could not see more than 10' in front the car.

Despite the efforts of the rain, wet dirty road with mud and standing water in places the car was supersonic - did not budge once. I have done 6K on the tyres and I am now wondering what all the fuss is about on this thread. I already thought the car was in the wet but today I am now 100% that the car is a rain monster - even my passenger who has a Audi S4 was stunned how good it was. ( I hope I have not tempted fate )

Kp


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

Outstanding performance from my Dunlops, on road and track, throughout a very wet weekend in Wales.


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## MSM (Oct 11, 2009)

The tone of this thread has changed from being very negative to very positive ....!!!:thumbsup:


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## Godders (Oct 7, 2009)

could it be the car set up? Too much or not enough Caster, Camber or Toe or something? Please don't ask me to explain, I only have Wikipedia to go by...


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## Azrael (Nov 18, 2009)

Godders said:


> could it be the car set up? Too much or not enough Caster, Camber or Toe or something? Please don't ask me to explain, I only have Wikipedia to go by...


Of course it can!!! Superb setup for dry can be quite a handful in the wet! Its the way these things are it's always a compromise on a road car, and the higher the performance of the car the smaller the conditions sweet spot where the setup works well.


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## SurreyUMSGTR (May 19, 2009)

*The Dunlops work very well*

5 of us just did a rain soaked (in 60 mph cross winds) at Anglesey, National & Coastal track, and then a day driving the rain washed roads of North Wales.

The Dunlops performed exceptionally well, mine had 6500 miles on them, and took me round Anglesey with little drama and excellent control. If there is a criticism they lack 'feel' which can at first make you nervous to lean on them, but once you do, and drive the car taking in its dynamics (heavy & 500bhp through the rear wheels), it performed effortlessly. Not one of us had a mishap - there is photos and vid on the '35 days to xmas' thread in the meets section - and the rain was so heavy we had standing water as well as rivers running across the track. The organiser said it was one of the worse days they had for weather. Considering that Caterhams, MR2's, front drive hatches all span, and a TVR had to back-off from the pace i was carrying round the circuit - the GTR is very competent - not as much can be said for the 911 Turbo that was there!

Now, in the interest of balance - one of the other owners (Paul) had just had new tires (day before) - Bridgetsones - and for one lap i followed him round taking the same line - and in the majority of cases where the Dunlops might give a little shimmy (oversteer) - the Bridgestones tracked true with no drama. Now whether this is because my tires had 6500 miles on them and the Bridgestones were new, or better, we wont know - but Paul was running in the 3 R's!

Our conclusion from the rest of us with Dunlops - they work very well once the car's handling is experienced fully - something that is almost impossible to do on the road. Three of us did the CAT training at Millbrook in the summer in the dry - and now Anglesey in the VERY wet - and the tires were very competent indeed.

I have also just had my 6000 mile service done (7250 miles), and the tires have only half worn, and Westovers are seeing Dunlops last 12-15k miles.


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

SurreyUMSGTR said:


> 5 of us just did a rain soaked (in 60 mph cross winds) at Anglesey, National & Coastal track, and then a day driving the rain washed roads of North Wales.
> 
> The Dunlops performed exceptionally well, mine had 6500 miles on them, and took me round Anglesey with little drama and excellent control. If there is a criticism they lack 'feel' which can at first make you nervous to lean on them, but once you do, and drive the car taking in its dynamics (heavy & 500bhp through the rear wheels), it performed effortlessly. Not one of us had a mishap - there is photos and vid on the '35 days to xmas' thread in the meets section - and the rain was so heavy we had standing water as well as rivers running across the track. The organiser said it was one of the worse days they had for weather. Considering that Caterhams, MR2's, front drive hatches all span, and a TVR had to back-off from the pace i was carrying round the circuit - the GTR is very competent - not as much can be said for the 911 Turbo that was there!
> 
> ...


Great post. Very helpful. Thanks.

I need to get on a circuit and get some lessons


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## SurreyUMSGTR (May 19, 2009)

*CAT training...very good...*

I cant recommend CAT training at Millbrook enough - an excellent course (at serious speeds), that breaks down the car's dynamics and then builds the understanding from there. Millbrook allows you to experience the car in a way you NEVER could on the roads. A number of owners have done the CAT training, and all have found it incredibly beneficial.

Most of us from this weekend at Angelsey are in agreement - we will now look for bad weather track days!!!

In fact the organisers are encouraging us to come back to Anglesey in the snow! 



misters3 said:


> Great post. Very helpful. Thanks.
> 
> I need to get on a circuit and get some lessons


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

OT but anyone fancy snetterton on 19 December - £129?

VERY fast circuitand i will be post optimisation so very keen to stretch the legs!

D


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## imattersuk (Nov 28, 2008)

Done at least 6 very wet journeys, over 1000 miles, all road types, perfect handling every time on Dunlops, was set up for track use at optimisation but only used on the road so far.

Showing no sign of any tyre wear at 3500 miles


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## Godders (Oct 7, 2009)

some great info here... BTW just been out in light rain on the A46 and hit 0.75G on a roundabout with no loss of grip. That's got to be good going in my book. I love this car...


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