# manual gearbox gtr?



## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

one thing that put me off owning a GTR is the fact that they are Auto's. 

I have owned cars before with the paddle gearbox and the one thing i hated was not having a manual gearbox. For instance i used to have a RS6, after driving a RS4 i realised how much more control i had over the car. Yes the RS6 is the more powerfull car but i could drive the RS4 faster due to the manual box. 


If it was a option would you prefer a manual gearbox?


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

i'm only here as i saw your name... 
in an ideal world,i'd have two R35's,one would be an auto,and one would be a manual,you can't beat a good manual gearbox when your attacking the road,but on a daily basis,auto's all the way


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

JapFreak786 said:


> i'm only here as i saw your name...
> in an ideal world,i'd have two R35's,one would be an auto,and one would be a manual,you can't beat a good manual gearbox when your attacking the road,but on a daily basis,auto's all the way



Know what your saying mate! 

I used to have to supras. 1 was manual and the other was Auto. I used to use the auto when driving long distance or driving through town. I used the manual when i was out for a blast. Just had so much more control over the car. 

Daft thing was tho, the auto was the quicker of the two cars even tho it felt alot slower to drive, hence i kept my auto for the wrong reasons. I made it faster and it became unusable down country lanes. Should of stuck with the manual and spent money making that quick. 

As you know i still have the Auto one and as it happens im looking for a manual box to convert it LOL


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

mattysupra said:


> one thing that put me off owning a GTR is the fact that they are Auto's.
> 
> I have owned cars before with the paddle gearbox and the one thing i hated was not having a manual gearbox. For instance i used to have a RS6, after driving a RS4 i realised how much more control i had over the car. Yes the RS6 is the more powerfull car but i could drive the RS4 faster due to the manual box.
> 
> ...


Can understand your thinking as I too owned an RS6, then an E60 M5 (so experienced SMG) then a B7 RS4 & now the GT-R with it's DCT.

A DCT is the better transmission in most situations as it provides a roundness the others can't. SMG is just nasty in auto mode so can only really be used in paddle shift, a straight manual although providing good control is not always as quick as requires user control & we as humans do not get every change bang on perfect. DCT provides manual up & downshifts that are often quicker than manual boxes (look at the 997's) & also provide a quick & very smooth auto mode.

Last point is that the clutch required on a manual car putting out 500bhp & bing forced induction, a huge lump of torque, would need to be very big & therefore heavy & prone to failure.


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

w8pmc said:


> Can understand your thinking as I too owned an RS6, then an E60 M5 (so experienced SMG) then a B7 RS4 & now the GT-R with it's DCT.


So talking about your RS6 you had. I found the paddle shift crap because of -

1- it would not let me pull off in second etc
2- It would change gear still when i didnt want it to. It would still drop down gears instead of using the torque. 
3- Again it would change gear when i didnt want it to. For instance if i wanted to rev to the rev limiter and sit there hitting the rev limiter it would still change into a higher gear! 
4- I would ask it to down shift when breaking hard etc and it would not down shift unless the revs was lower than i wanted. 

Is the GTR box simular to that? Owning a RS6 im sure you know what im talking about? 




w8pmc said:


> Last point is that the clutch required on a manual car putting out 500bhp & bing forced induction, a huge lump of torque, would need to be very big & therefore heavy & prone to failure.


The clutch is not a issue mate, there are plenty of clutches out there that can handle the power. For instance i run alot of power in my R34 GTR and i use a triple plate carbon clutch in it. The clutch is rated to over 1000 bhp and i cant get it to slip. It also drives like a bog standard clutch. They are £2600 quid but there are much cheaper clutches out there than this.


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

mattysupra said:


> So talking about your RS6 you had. I found the paddle shift crap because of -
> 
> 1- it would not let me pull off in second etc
> 2- It would change gear still when i didnt want it to. It would still drop down gears instead of using the torque.
> ...


Agree on the RS6 paddle shift, it was pretty crap but a lot of that was the limitations of the torque converter.

I liked the SMG box, but a lot of folk don't.

The GT-R is far removed from the RS6 slush box. It's a Dual Clutch system with the ability to adapt based on driving style. Same in basis as the BMW DCT which is on the new M3 or the PDK system on Pork & I think it's called F1 on Fezzas. The system is often quicker than a manual, as with 2 clutches it can pre select the next gears in advance which greatly reduces change times.

I understand that there are manual clutches that can cope with power & torque but mainstream manufacturers avoid them on their big power cars such as AMG Mercs, the new RS6, M5/6 (rumour has it the next M5 will have a full on 
slush box) etc.


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## Rich-GT (Apr 2, 2008)

I do sometimes wonder how hard people who hanker after a manual gearbox have driven their GT-R?

Yes a manual gearbox is preferable to most Auto gearboxes, including the GT-R, but the padlle shift in R Mode is a joy to use. 

You keep both hands on the wheel and it changes gear in the blink of an eye. On the datalog of speed v time it's almost impossible to see where the gear change took place, and because of this you change gear, without lifting off the throttle, whenever you want without unsettling the car. Why given this would anyone want to go back to a manual gearbox?

Rich


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## bobel (Jul 26, 2010)

Don't get me wrong I'd be disappointed if manuals were removed from the market all together but dual clutchers are superb, for a high performance car you could never match the speed or on-off-on transition without upsetting traction or stability, I think the thoughts that manuals are more involving is more nostalgic then anything!


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

Over 200 people have viewed this thread but only 17 have ticked the poll? 


Whats that all about then? opcorn:


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## joc (Jan 11, 2004)

*Box*

Manual boxes are better for driving pleasure and control of the car. But unfortunately the traffic in this day and age would require having a paddle shift or auto box


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

> Over 200 people have viewed this thread but only 17 have ticked the poll?


you are in the R35 GTR bit, most people are quite happy with it

I had a tuned 33 and 35 at the same time for about a year. The 33 was fun but a to b the 35 was better. I don't fight the gearbox much now on the 35, yes it does the odd thing now and again but i'm happy with it now

2nd to 3rd and 4th at full bore in the 33 was fun but also scary, how many knackered 3rd gears out there! No worries with the 35, its always fun, the end of the day why do we have these cars?

anyway its not a auto box but a semi-auto


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

Robbie J said:


> you are in the R35 GTR bit, most people are quite happy with it


Im not so sure. If you add up the bottom two answers on the poll which are saying yes i would prefer a manual or would like to try a manual then its higher than people wanting auto. Or it is at the moment! 

Also i would guess there a few people on here that have always had auto's, maybe last car was a Merc sl55 or something or maybe Rs6? so maybe that is all they are used to? 





Robbie J said:


> anyway its not a auto box but a semi-auto


LOL, Yes sorry. Semi auto! May be i should say a gearbox that doesnt have a clutch you can press with your left leg :banned:


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I can't believe I am reading this post.

What you have in the twin clutch box is the most advanced clutchless manual that is good enough for production use.

It is not an automatic.

Because it is capable of changing gear based on an electronic input rather than physically wrenching a selector fork across a gate, it can be made to function as an auto by simply writing a minor programme. For that reason and that reason alone it has an auto mode, which some people like to use.

Conventional autos have a wasteful torque converter to produce smoothness, a twin clutch has no such feature, which is why they don't inherently creep.

They are simply a robotised manual gearbox where the computer actuates the clutch for you, just as the old ferrari F1 and the old BMW smg were. Like those, you can change gear when you want and have the benefit of a conventional clutch and conventional rather than epicyclic gears. Unlike the SMG/F1 the DCT brings in the new advantage of preselecting the next gear for you meaning you can switch off one torque path and switch on another without worrying about beating the synchromesh.

I am not sure why anyone would complain about a box that can perform better than perfect human gearchanges everytime, which doesn't suffer the power and fuel wastage of a torque converted auto, but lets you choose the gear you want when you want it. The fact that it also allows you to select auto when you are tired or can't be bothered in traffic is an added bones.

I detest autos, I flatly refuse to have any non manual car, until the twin clutch was invented.

For me it's been the main thing drawing me to this car and the thing I am most looking forward to getting to grips with when I pick mine up.

As far as I can tell it's all pro and no con! What's not to like?


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## andyc (Jul 22, 2007)

I voted Manual, yes having an auto while sat in the M25 traffic would be nice.

BUT a car that my 80 year old nan could get in and drive. Would love to see her try a triple plate clutch haha


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

I would like to complain about the titles....
To be pedantic its not an auto box....

So I voted for the manual

because


> If it was a option would you prefer a manual gearbox?


The answer would obviously be yes


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## RVR (Jan 14, 2011)

Nissan made a street car. What can you do? A race flash will eventually drop.


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## londongtr (Dec 8, 2009)

yep thats probably whats putting the pedantic people off from voting.

Simply put - would you like?

a) Gears as they are
b) Stick shift

would probably be better

Just saying




GT-R Glenn said:


> I would like to complain about the titles....
> To be pedantic its not an auto box....
> 
> So I voted for the manual
> ...


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Those people who prefer manual, have you driven an R35 in R mode? 

If you have, i can't see how a manual would give you any extra...except maybe the ability to put it into the wrong gear by accident which you can't do.

You could never keep on boost like you can with the semi-auto.

I guess you wouldn't want power assisted steering or brakes either?


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## mattysupra (Oct 31, 2008)

misters3 said:


> Those people who prefer manual, have you driven an R35 in R mode?


Nope,(well me anyway) hence im asking for your input on this!


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## Min-e (Sep 23, 2009)

I'll put my hands up and say that I haven't been behind the wheel of a GT-R and experienced its incredible gearbox however I have seen plenty of videos and heard various owners' feedback saying that it is an absolute joy to use. With that said I would still want a manual gearbox or at least an option. The gearbox may change gears quicker than I ever possibly could, but if I'm out having a blast as I often do there is nothing more satisfying than when you get that up change absolutely bang on and dial back in the power and its just such a damn good feeling that I'd miss it too much, the same when heel and toeing back down the box, when you get the downshifts perfect the satisfaction at least for me far out rules the performance of being however many milliseconds slower. I just love having as much input into the car and how it reacts as possible. I totally understand the gearbox in the GT-R from a performance point of view and from an ease to drive point but for me personally I love an H-pattern manual. I'd still like to experience the R35 and how everything on the car works in harmony.

Just my 2 cents worth...


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## Gatling (Jun 16, 2010)

The gearbox makes the GTR.


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## andyc (Jul 22, 2007)

Gatling said:


> The gearbox makes the GTR.


Agreed.

These days alot of supercars are auto, im guessing because some are becoming so fast manuals just dont cut it.

When my old man takes his LP640 out he enjoys it because its auto and its easy to drive quickly.

Then he jumps back in the Countach and always complains of knee problems hahaha


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## Jaw_F430 (Apr 14, 2009)

Only thing really that annoys me sometimes is the first gear judder. Been back to the dealer with it and they done a full clutch reset. Not much different apart from it holds on hills now. 


Someone mentioned it doesn't creep? It does, you need to keep your foot on the brake when at traffic lights or put the handbrake on. My old CSL with the SMG box didn't do this.


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## Rich-GT (Apr 2, 2008)

The *only* thing I miss in not having a manual gearbox is that sometimes in the heat of things I forget which gear I am in, and go up or down a gear more than I intended. However it's quickly put right 

Best solution however would be a nice big gear position indicator on top of the dash, idealy combined with some RPM lights.


Rich


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Rich-GT said:


> The *only* thing I miss in not having a manual gearbox is that sometimes in the heat of things I forget which gear I am in, and go up or down a gear more than I intended. However it's quickly put right
> 
> Best solution however would be a nice big gear position indicator on top of the dash, idealy combined with some RPM lights.
> 
> ...


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Rich-GT said:


> Best solution however would be a nice big gear position indicator on top of the dash, idealy combined with some RPM lights.
> 
> 
> Rich


Is the gear position indicator it has got not big enough for you? I can see mine no problem.


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## Rich-GT (Apr 2, 2008)

Everything is fine for normal use, I would just like something more in the line of sight for when on the track. Mabee you are all better drivers than me but in the heat of things I need to keep my eyes on the track.

Not a big thing, but in this rather silly thread the only thing I can think of in support of a manual gearbox was that I always knew, wihout looking, which gear I was in. 


Rich


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Point taken, I don't track mine but can understand that staying focussed is more important than looking at the display in front of you. That said, I can't understand how anyone can possibly use all the MFD info when driving at speed.

As for being a better driver, doubtful


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

I don't think manual v automatic transmission is really the main issue.

The R35 dual clutch system and paddle shift keeps the revs on to prevent the turbo's from spooling down, which probably adds quite a bit to the acceleration and overall performance.

Some decades ago I had a Sierra RS Cosworth tuned by Turbo Technics with bigger Garret turbo, three way turbo boost switch on the dash etc, but no matter how slick your gear change technique, the turbo boost always dropped off meaning it had to spool up again to reach maximum torque.

I think the R35 transmission is just better, far more advanced and far more efficient, and nothing to do with whether you or the car changes the gears, which I suppose is why the system has been used in F1 for years and becoming more prevalent in performance cars generally.


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

If it don't have a clutch I'm not interested. If it's an auto how can it be a drivers car?
Nissan really should give you the choice! 
Manual all the way


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Lubo69GTR said:


> If it don't have a clutch I'm not interested. If it's an auto how can it be a drivers car?
> Nissan really should give you the choice!
> Manual all the way


It's got 2 clutches and is a semi-auto. You can drive it in auto mode or manual on paddles. Drives nothing like a torque converter auto.


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

Lubo69GTR said:


> If it don't have a clutch I'm not interested. If it's an auto how can it be a drivers car?
> Nissan really should give you the choice!
> Manual all the way


Well that makes no sense to me at all.

I own and have driven vehicles with all sorts of transmissions, and I just don't see how depressing a clutch pedal, with the extra latency it implies could be better in any way in practical terms.

Of course this is one of those religious preferences like Windows or Linux or whatever, at the final analysis it is preference from that perspective.

But an R35 without the dual clutch system and paddle shift - I run mine in paddle mode all the time - would not be an R35 - maybe it would be a more advanced Skyline


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

I meant a real clutch operated by a human leg not a clever computer. 
Like you said it’s personal preference but in my mind it could have 10 clutches but with only two peddles it's an auto :chuckle:
Manual’s are better on fuel too


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Lubo69GTR said:


> I meant a real clutch operated by a human leg not a clever computer.
> Like you said it***8217;s personal preference but in my mind it could have 10 clutches but with only two peddles it's an auto :chuckle:
> Manual***8217;s are better on fuel too


I get better MPG in my GTR in Auto than in Manual mode.

It changes up earlier to 6th in Auto than is possible than in Manual.

I take it you've removed the servo/pump from then clutch in your car...to avoid any assistance ruining the experience for you


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

Lubo69GTR said:


> But with only two peddles it's an auto :chuckle:


Well it is not auto with the *manual* paddle shift, it is a manual with a paddle shift instead of a manual with stick and extra pedal  But I guess it is what you are happy with.


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

apc said:


> Well it is not auto with the *manual* paddle shift, it is a manual with a paddle shift instead of a manual with stick and extra pedal  But I guess it is what you are happy with.


and 2 clutches so twice as good as a conventional manual


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

@misters In manual mode it's still an AUTO!
It still has servo/pump probably, It has a paddle clutch so don't think I could depress it without. 
Sorry if I've upset anyone with MY VIEW


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

misters3 said:


> and 2 clutches so twice as good as a conventional manual


If Nissan ever did make an R35 with stick and clutch, there is no way I would put it up against the existing dual clutch, paddle shift setup.

For a start, the dual clutch keeps the turbo's from spooling down with the latency of having to spool them back up again. You would have to be a slick gear changer to keep the turbo's spooled up with a stick and single clutch.


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Lubo69GTR said:


> @misters In manual mode it's still an AUTO!
> It still has servo/pump probably, It has a paddle clutch so don't think I could depress it without.
> Sorry if I've upset anyone with MY VIEW


It's not auto because it (the car) won't change without you pressing a paddle to change gear.

I guess like on your bike you could have a rocker pedal for your left foot instead? Would that be better? 

No upset...just passing time...enjoying the convo


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

Lubo69GTR said:


> @misters In manual mode it's still an AUTO!
> It still has servo/pump probably, It has a paddle clutch so don't think I could depress it without.
> Sorry if I've upset anyone with MY VIEW


Well I am not upset, just bemused at the apparent definition of "auto" v "manual".

To me at least the simple lack of a clutch pedal does not automatically make it an "auto".

It is only an auto if the car decides when to change gear. In my R35 I decide when to change gear through the *manual* operation of the paddle shifts.

Actually, come to think of it, I am not even sure of the point of this discussion which is based more on semantics and preference than technical fact.


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

misters3 said:


> It's not auto because it (the car) won't change without you pressing a paddle to change gear.
> 
> I guess like on your bike you could have a rocker pedal for your left foot instead? Would that be better?
> 
> No upset...just passing time...enjoying the convo


Me to mate :thumbsup:
I'm just like thing the old way 
The bike's fine as it is, you don't even need to use the clutch so from what I've been saying that's an auto too


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Lubo69GTR said:


> Me to mate :thumbsup:
> I'm just like thing the old way
> The bike's fine as it is, *you don't even need to use the clutch so from what I've been saying that's an auto too *


Zactly :clap:


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

But it's not because it has a manually operated clutch which is why it's a manual? Can you manually operate the R35's clutch's? No? that'll be an auto then


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

Lubo69GTR said:


> Me to mate :thumbsup:
> I'm just like thing the old way
> The bike's fine as it is, you don't even need to use the clutch so from what I've been saying that's an auto too


Well I have manual's, auto and dual clutch paddle shift cars in my garage/on my drive, so I am transmission agnostic except when it comes to the R35 which IMO wouldn't be an R35 without the real R35 transmission.

Then there is the sequential transmission of course 

Just enjoying this thread like everyone else


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## misters3 (Jun 23, 2008)

Lubo69GTR said:


> But it's not because it has a manually operated clutch which is why it's a manual? Can you manually operate the R35's clutch's? No? that'll be an auto then


okay using your logic 

I will concede that the clutch is AUTO but the gearbox is still MANUAL 

BTW - i'm sure Thistle could knock up some way of operation the clutch manually too using a COBB :lol:


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

Lubo69GTR said:


> But it's not because it has a manually operated clutch which is why it's a manual? Can you manually operate the R35's clutch's? No? that'll be an auto then


No  Manual or auto refers to driver input or lack of driver input. 

I can, and often have, driven manual gearbox cars without using the clutch at all, but that does not mean the car has changed in to an auto


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

misters3 said:


> okay using your logic
> 
> I will concede that the clutch is AUTO but the gearbox is still MANUAL
> 
> BTW - i'm sure Thistle could knock up some way of operation the clutch manually too using a COBB :lol:


Would that be a ham or cheese cob?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Lubo69GTR said:


> I meant a real clutch operated by a human leg not a clever computer.
> Like you said it’s personal preference but in my mind it could have 10 clutches but with only two peddles it's an auto :chuckle:
> Manual’s are better on fuel too


Actually autos are worse on fuel because they have a wasteful torque converter.

Since DCTs are better on fuel your statement above puts DCTs in the manual category! 

I hate autos because they are non purist, but I've wanted a dct ever since I filed my first patent on one years back purely because I appreciated the technical elegance of them.

They are what the manual gearbox should hav been from the beginning (arguably the zero shift is even more so as it is simpler).

It is just semantics, you think auto = clutch less, I think auto = no choice of gear.

I guess that's why they created th new name of semi auto!

Take from it what you want but the choices in the poll are incorrectly worded.


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## apc (Oct 12, 2009)

I think we can say that technology has moved in general.

Discussing whether manual or auto transmission is better, is lke discussing whether you would prefer an 8-track or cassette player to listen to in your car when you could have a CD Player.

Stick shift comes from the year dot, and must be really classed as a purist decision - and that's fine - to the extent that all technology is supposed to make life easier and more convenient. Although I drive all transmissions, depending on the car I am driving, a manual clutch with a stick shift does seem extremely archaic by comparison with the rest of the car, especially in slow moving traffic.

I can see a case for manual/clutch transmission in rally cars, but even they are moving to sequential or paddle, like F1's have been for years.

I really do think though that this manual/auto transmission discussion is not relevant to the R35 which is a next generation machine with next generation transmission, which is just one reason we buy and love driving them - amongst numerous others of course


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## OldBob (Oct 18, 2010)

DCT box all the way. Good software/logic is important for total control rather than too much downchange AI (eg Evo X in Super Sport is really good/nearly full manual like IMO)
Although I haven't hurtled my GTR round track or in R mode transmission much, "track" experiences I've had (such as Palmersport) the cars use a paddle type (except the caterham and discovery) and this makes it so much easier/safer to drive hard IMO. Wouldn't F1 etc race cars be stick shift if it was better, or is this too simplistic.
I didn't vote Auto as it conjures up a slush box preference, but I didn't vote manual either


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

apc said:


> I think we can say that technology has moved in general.
> 
> Discussing whether manual or auto transmission is better, is lke discussing whether you would prefer an 8-track or cassette player to listen to in your car when you could have a CD Player.
> 
> ...


I must say i agree technology has moved on, you only have to try a standing start in a DCT car compared to a manual to realise you just cant compete with the technology. Manual in classic cars is part of the experience, but a GTR is always going to be high tech so auto all the way !


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## WingedBeast1968 (Sep 18, 2009)

I think the phrase is "automated manual".
It's taken two years to get used to it, and it is the way of the future. I prefer it to a straight manual now. A GTR straight manual wouldn't be as quick.


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Yep, feel that same now too.

Always hated autos, never wanted to own a car with a slushbox and had my doubts about the GTRs trans.

Now I just love it. Blipping the throttle on downshifts brings a new enjoyment to slowing down for traffic lights, and always wakes a few dozy drivers up too.


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## WingedBeast1968 (Sep 18, 2009)

Yeah, and I don't understand all the 2011 model ravings. I drove one, and both couldn't tell the diff., and I prefer my 2009 model.

I certainly wouldn't take a £30k hit to upgrade.


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## GTR_JED (Sep 21, 2009)

It's an automated manual gearbox (do a quick google). 

I can understand why people like the feeling of throwing the gear stick about and using the clutch to feel "in control". Most 'automatic' gearboxes have a mind of their own and don't compare whatsoever. For those of you who have driven something like an AUDI with a DSG gearbox then please be 100% sure that it's a world away from the control the GTR gearbox gives you.

The GTR is something completely different and, like many R35 owners do, I drive it in manual mode, changing gear by myself, when I want - which is the feeling you get from a stick shift. So you feel like you're driving a manual and you're in control of the car. The fact that is does it so well is why no one with a R35 would start a thread like this


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## WingedBeast1968 (Sep 18, 2009)

We know


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## enshiu (Aug 20, 2010)

GTR_JED said:


> It's an automated manual gearbox (do a quick google).
> 
> I can understand why people like the feeling of throwing the gear stick about and using the clutch to feel "in control". Most 'automatic' gearboxes have a mind of their own and don't compare whatsoever. For those of you who have driven something like an AUDI with a DSG gearbox then please be 100% sure that it's a world away from the control the GTR gearbox gives you.
> 
> The GTR is something completely different and, like many R35 owners do, I drive it in manual mode, changing gear by myself, when I want - which is the feeling you get from a stick shift. So you feel like you're driving a manual and you're in control of the car. The fact that is does it so well is why no one with a R35 would start a thread like this


like what he said it's a auto/manual hybrid. Because inside the case the shift changes are manual. the clutch is auto. so it's more like a half/half. The reason that a DCT shifts faster is that while he the box is shifting it shifts without losing rpm.

If I am wrong correct me. I have daily car with manual and gt-r as Dual clutch.

Look at the new coaches they are making with DCT boxes pulls way and way faster 0-60 than the manual. I do like manual but, not as a race car.


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## MidLifeCrisis (Apr 29, 2011)

The GT-R has a manual gearbox now, but with a much faster mechanism to change gear than any pure manual with a conventional clutch. I think any other solution would be much slower. Can you imagine how long it would take to "manually" change 1st to 2nd gear with a conventional clutch? I think it would add several tenths of a second to the 0-60 time, and 1-2 seconds to the 0-100 time. Also consistency would be lost, as it is now you can closely repeat 0-60 times, but with a regular clutch the times would be all over the place due to driver inconsistency and temptation to floor it and side step the clutch. Probably leading to something large and expensive broken, or at best, major loss of traction.

Personally I think we all got the perfect solution :smokin:


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

I would much rather have the auto version as I just can't change gear even remotely as fast as the R35 does.

To me this is what makes the car so good for it's power and weight. 
It's one seriously trick transmission that makes the overall car greater than the sum of it's parts.

If it was a conventional auto I'd have avoided it like the plague.


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## B16JUS (Oct 17, 2011)

I used to love manuals, but lately just enjoy cruising along without any worrys


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## WingedBeast1968 (Sep 18, 2009)

FFS chaps, it's not an auto. It's a dual clutch automated manual.
There is no torque converter in there!


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## enshiu (Aug 20, 2010)

WingedBeast1968 said:


> FFS chaps, it's not an auto. It's a dual clutch automated manual.
> There is no torque converter in there!


+5


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

For those talking about driver involvment...

It has essentially got the same gearbox as an F1 car. Most GT race cars also have paddle shift gearboxes.

They are not autos.

Yes, there is an attraction to a car that has a purity of a manual box, but really that purity is a social viewpoint in your mind. 

How pure do you get? Do you want to double declutch again and take the synchro's out? Have no ABS, no brake servo, no power steering. Realistically, you are stuck in a mindset that "manuals are for men, autos are for girls" which just doesn't apply to a DCT box! Cars are full of technology just like DCT that make them safer, faster, more reliable and more frugal.

The GTR would not be able to produce the results it does now if it were manual. The clutch would be epically heavy. There would be fewer, longer gears meaning slower acceleration as you wouldn't be in gear long enough to be able to depress the heavy clutch and change gear. It would use alot more fuel, you wouldn't have the effective launch control you have - etc etc

Plus, if you are really talking about driving purity then the GTR with its computers, 4WD etc etc should not even be on your shopping list! You should be in a RWD, manual, normally aspirated car.

Without the gearbox, the R-35 would not be what it is.

Still, if you want the ultimate purity, get a horse drawn carriage


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## sw20GTS (Jul 29, 2010)

Blade said:


> For those talking about driver involvment...
> 
> It has essentially got the same gearbox as an F1 car. Most GT race cars also have paddle shift gearboxes.
> 
> ...


Well put mate.


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## Millwallmart (Jan 17, 2012)

Blade said:


> Still, if you want the ultimate purity, get a horse drawn carriage


Quality, and very true.

The GTR would be half the car in a manual. When I had my 997t in a manual I would always defend stick saying that it's a 'drivers' car etc. Etc..

I was in denial. GTR semi-auto is the nuts with acceleration of Epic proportions that are simply not achievable in a manual.


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

You guy’s are really sticking to this semi auto talk. In my mind it’s an auto and that’s the way it’ll stay. 
I rode a semi auto recently (Honda wave 110) and it wouldn’t change gear on it’s own. I believe your GTR’s do which makes them (in my mind) full auto with a paddle shift. Not really like an F1 or GT car as these have sequential boxes (like all decent motorbikes) and won’t drive in full auto mode like your auto GTR’s.

I just want to keep the arguing going


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

GR6 is sequential.


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

Lubo69GTR said:


> You guy’s are really sticking to this semi auto talk. In my mind it’s an auto and that’s the way it’ll stay.
> I rode a semi auto recently (Honda wave 110) and it wouldn’t change gear on it’s own. I believe your GTR’s do which makes them (in my mind) full auto with a paddle shift. Not really like an F1 or GT car as these have sequential boxes (like all decent motorbikes) and won’t drive in full auto mode like your auto GTR’s.
> 
> I just want to keep the arguing going


By all means argue, but get your facts straight.

1) It is sequential
2) It is manual with an automated mode, not auto with a manual operation mode
3) Read a book on transmissions ffs.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Blade, don't rise to it.

Reading through this thread and knowledge of the industry has taught me that role apply different definitions and simply don't get it.

Even with the best of both worlds that a twin clutch gives you some people are just too stupid to get away from the fact that it has an auto mode.

I wonder if they realise that a simple piece of software would turn an f1 box into an "auto".

But then I guess the aventador, mp412c, verron, sls, 458 and turbo s aren't drivers cars either.


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

Too true Adam,

Perhaps automatic banning for stupidity could be introduced? 

Loving your car btw


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## DWC (May 18, 2009)

I see my GTR as a manual with the option of an auto to be honest. There's no way you could change gear as fast in a proper manual. Personally i would never go back to manual.


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

I've never had the chance to drive an r35 but I have driven my old xkr and a bio turbo cl600 amg. Very smooth and relaxing but when you put the foot down it just seemed wrong. I can't explain it really. It's maybe just with those 2 cars but the power delivery felt all wrong. Almost as if the car isn't expecting it when you put the foot down. I also felt less in control of the car. They are big cars though!

Anyway I prefer a manual but since I've never driven an r35 my opinion is pointless.


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

JTJUDGE said:


> I've never had the chance to drive an r35 but I have driven my old xkr and a bio turbo cl600 amg. Very smooth and relaxing but when you put the foot down it just seemed wrong. I can't explain it really. It's maybe just with those 2 cars but the power delivery felt all wrong. Almost as if the car isn't expecting it when you put the foot down. I also felt less in control of the car. They are big cars though!
> 
> Anyway I prefer a manual but since I've never driven an r35 my opinion is pointless.



Both of those are autos, infact both using a mercedes gearbox.

An auto has a torque converter which is a fluid coupling used to aid the smooth change of gears, and responsible for the slowness of it all. An auto with buttons or paddles is just an auto with the ability to choose the gear, no different to what you can do with the J-Gate on a Jag for example.

The GTR IS NOT AN AUTO!!! It is a sequential manual.

With a real manual, and a good driver, you would do well to change gear in less than 500 milliseconds.

The GTR does it in 200 milliseconds, but included in that is the throttle blipping and rev matching. An auto doesn't do that - it slips power using the torque converter.

Faster gearboxes such as that in the 430 Scuderia can go to 60ms.

The latest Audi DSG manual box is 8ms shift time!!!!

Even the best driver on a good day cannot match the GTR shift time.

I think I may have to shoot the next person that says the GTR is an AUTO.

It doesn't matter if you have driven it or not, surely people are capable of reading a Wiki page to understand what the difference between a manual gearbox and an auto is (and for that matter a sequential manual with automated change)


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## JTJUDGE (Nov 21, 2011)

ok Mr Serious :lamer:

I "think" I'd prefer old school stick shift although I've not driven an r35 so my opinion is pointless


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

JTJUDGE said:


> ok Mr Serious :lamer:
> 
> I "think" I'd prefer old school stick shift although I've not driven an r35 so my opinion is pointless


Don't get me wrong, there is definitely something about the purity of a good manual shift.

My Honda Mugen Type R has a lovely,sweet, snickety snick short shift gearbox, but these are really only that way in relatively low torque cars, or at least ones that produce their torque higher up the rev range.

The 640bhp supercharged M3 I had was a manual, but produced peak torque over 6krpm.

The problem is, with the torque level of the GTR and the traction capabilities, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to use a convential manual. You would need Arnie's left leg to change gear as the clutch and cogs would be mahoosive, and between the ponderous huge clutch and fewer gears with much wider gear spacing to simply give you time to do the change before hitting the limiter, you would see the more usual 60 time in the 4 second range, not sub 3 as we are now.

Notice how most diesels above 2l are auto? Same issue - too much torque.

There are not many manual gearboxes in existence that could deal with the torque. Even alot of DCT boxes can't. 

I agree with the sentiment on a "stick shift", but hopefully you will understand that opinion has nothing to do with it - from a pure science point of view, a conventional stick shift gearbox is an impossibility in a GTR, unless you resort to dog boxes which are just silly.

Incidentally, I have owned the following autos:-

Jaguar XKR (x 2)
BMW 530d (E60)
BMW 530dGT (F07)
BMW 120d
Nissan 300ZX


and the following automated manuals

BMW E46 M3 CSL (x2)
BMW E46 M3 Convertible
Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
BMW E60 M5 
R35 GTR

and the following manuals

Lancia Integrale 300bhp
Mitsubishi Evo 6 600bhp
BMW E92 M3 640bhp
Honda Type-R Mugen 230bhp
TVR Griffith 500 340bhp
Nissan 200SX GenI
Nissan 200SX Gen2

and even the following CVT cars

Daf 66 (!)
Fiesta CVT 1l

and finally my BMW E46 GTR race car had a full Drenth flat-shift sequential race gearbox (with a huge lever).


There are loads more, but it shows enough of a cross section of powerful manual, auto, automated manual and dual clutch gearbox cars!


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

JTJUDGE said:


> I've never had the chance to drive an r35 but I have driven my old xkr and a bio turbo cl600 amg. Very smooth and relaxing but when you put the foot down it just seemed wrong. I can't explain it really. It's maybe just with those 2 cars but the power delivery felt all wrong. Almost as if the car isn't expecting it when you put the foot down. I also felt less in control of the car. They are big cars though!
> 
> Anyway I prefer a manual but since I've never driven an r35 my opinion is pointless.



Your description above is exactly the effect of a torque converter. You accelerate and there is a very perceptible delay as it "winds itself up" before giving the power you asked for. On the XKR, I would pre-empt all overtaking moves and step on the accelerator a good second or so as the kickdown could be seriously delayed by the torque converter. My XKR had retrofit gearshift buttons, but it didn't help!

The GTR is NOT like that, but it is possible to catch it out in auto mode.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Blade,

You have owned an auto?

You and I are no longer friends!


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## Blade (Feb 12, 2003)

Adamantium said:


> Blade,
> 
> You have owned an auto?
> 
> You and I are no longer friends!


In my defence I had it converted to switch shift and remapped by Racelogic!

My wife's cars are all autos though.... So I always have at least one auto

I'm unlikely to buy another car with a h pattern gearbox again though or a manually operated clutch


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

My wife is a due hard manual driver- very proud of her. Going for a q5 because of s-tronic!


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## WingedBeast1968 (Sep 18, 2009)

I was enjoying that argument. Anybody else think the GT-R is an auto? :lamer:


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

LOL, what are you like :chuckle:

Haven't contributed to this thread yet as i felt i needed to live with her for a while before being able to comment. Anyway after taking her out on some pretty decent runs i can honestly say I would have the transmission any other way. It's just bloody fantastic, and that's coming from someone that has always loved a stick, a manually operated clutch and some heel n toe action :smokin:

I still get to do it in the run arounds and even more so in the work car so the skill shouldn't disappear, but i can't say i've missed it in the GTR. Having both hands on the wheel at the speeds you can cover ground in these things is something that i wouldn't want to give up lol.


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## Paul_59 (Oct 22, 2011)

the gr6 gearbox is I believe, as other owners have commented, more correctly described as an automated manual gearbox. it is a vital part of the r35, it cannot really be likened to conventional auto boxes. there is no way you could get the same acceleration performance with "old fashioned manual clutch and gearbox". having driven about 15k miles in R35 GT-R I cannot understand how anyone could prefer conventional box on this car, unless they have never driven one and don't understand you get the best of both worlds with total control,if you wish, combined with seamless changes that are completed in 100msec (0.1sec), faster than the best driver could possibly manage. if traditional gearbox and clutch were superior in any way, they still be retained I n F1 race cars


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Some people still prefer an abacus to a calculator.


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## Paul_59 (Oct 22, 2011)

JTJUDGE said:


> ok Mr Serious :lamer:
> 
> I "think" I'd prefer old school stick shift although I've not driven an r35 so my opinion is pointless



no need to go that far, your opinion is one that you are entitled to hold and express, it isn't pointless, it's just uninformed.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

I would kill to have the gearbox out of the R35!

Zero delay on gear changes, doesn't drop any boost while changing, Never miss a gear, No need to take your hands off the wheel.....

.....Why do we need a clutch again? Even most good race cars only use their clutch when starting off the line, If it was faster for them to use a clutch don't you think they would?

....So as soon as someone works how to sling one into my R32 GT-R, Give me a bell!


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

JapFreak786 said:


> i'm only here as i saw your name...
> in an ideal world,i'd have two R35's,one would be an auto,and one would be a manual,you can't beat a good manual gearbox when your attacking the road,but on a daily basis,auto's all the way


Get an decent R33 and a R35 - I did !!!


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## Lubo69GTR (Mar 4, 2010)

If I was in a nasty accident and lost my left leg I’d get an auto but until then I’ll stick with a REAL manual


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## MarcR35GTR (Oct 17, 2010)

Lubo69GTR said:


> If I was in a nasty accident and lost my left leg I’d get an auto but until then I’ll stick with a REAL manual


I used to feel like that but after driving and now owning an R35, going back to a manual would feel such a step backwards


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## Trev (Nov 1, 2003)

Rich-GT said:


> I do sometimes wonder how hard people who hanker after a manual gearbox have driven their GT-R?
> 
> Yes a manual gearbox is preferable to most Auto gearboxes, including the GT-R, but the padlle shift in R Mode is a joy to use.
> 
> ...


Exactly.

Like the F1 cars of old, if your talking pure performance terms, semi auto is a MUST - HOWEVER, from a pure driving experience, you can't beat a bit of heel and toe, manual gear changing.

Perfect world, own a big powered RWD GTST AND an R35 GTR!


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## erol_h (Jun 13, 2008)

i love a manual gearbox especially when you have fun but i really enjoyed the GTR's box. It was good when you just want to dingle about in auto plus great when you knock through the gears with the paddles suits me just fine.


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## Satan (Mar 8, 2012)

mattysupra said:


> one thing that put me off owning a GTR is the fact that they are Auto's.
> 
> I have owned cars before with the paddle gearbox and the one thing i hated was not having a manual gearbox. For instance i used to have a RS6, after driving a RS4 i realised how much more control i had over the car. Yes the RS6 is the more powerfull car but i could drive the RS4 faster due to the manual box.
> 
> ...


Serious question, have you actually driven an R35 for any decent length of time?

I don't like autos as such, but the DCT box is simply superb.

I would now struggle to buy a daily driver without, I like them that much.

Don't confuse it with the shit systems that Astons and the like have, this is in a whole new league.

Give one a decent try and I think you'll be a convert.

Satan


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

A manual would be a step backwards.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

I manual would be a step backwards for the GT-R, yes.
But I still like getting in a manual car and giving it some stick, I find it rewarding.


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## Anders_R35 (Jul 20, 2011)

I enjoy driving manual too, blipping throttle on down changes is good fun.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Satan said:


> Serious question, have you actually driven an R35 for any decent length of time?
> 
> I don't like autos as such, but the DCT box is simply superb.
> 
> ...


To be fair to mattysupra he did ask the question 2 years ago so he might have changed his opinion in the meantime:chuckle:


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## Satan (Mar 8, 2012)

TAZZMAXX said:


> To be fair to mattysupra he did ask the question 2 years ago so he might have changed his opinion in the meantime:chuckle:


Fair comment, didn't notice that, doh:thumbsup:


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## Stotty251 (Mar 13, 2017)

I love my r35 gearbox. However I do miss the gear change where you get thrown forward in your seat and then thrown back in your seat every gear change. You feel the power every gear change. I know it's not as fast but it feels faster especially as a passenger.
But r35 gear box all the way. However I don't like the paddles shifter not attached to the steering wheel.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Stotty251 said:


> However I don't like the paddles shifter not attached to the steering wheel.


They are now, so problem solved.


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## ROG350Z (Jun 15, 2008)

TAZZMAXX said:


> They are now, so problem solved.



Take a bit of getting used to after 8 years of column mount! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## m1ac_drew (Apr 2, 2002)

This has been an interesting thread to read through. I admit that I didn't fully appreciate the differences between a clutch pedal manual and a semi-automatic manual. I've owned two GTS-t, the first was manual and the second was automatic; the latter was worse on fuel economy. Both were fun to drive, and perhaps the auto did change gears faster than me when I wasn't consciously racing to get to the next gear. I missed the clutch pedal.

I'm picking up my R35 tomorrow and despite having tested one a couple of years ago, I still felt some sadness that it's not available with the third pedal, which had me thinking about the 370Z or an R34, especially since I had always said I would never buy another automatic.

Now I feel quite justified, knowing that it is not an automatic in the traditional sense, and that there are advantages I hadn't considered, such as not losing boost between shifts.

I imagine that for a while, I won't use the paddle shifters, but will instead use the gear lever in sequential manual mode, just because that is where my left hand is used to being. It will probably also help me not to flick the wrong paddle in the heat of the moment.

I really like the idea that the car won't destabilise while changing gear in corners, since I do plan on taking her on track.

At this stage, I imagine the biggest disadvantage will be not hearing the dump valves vent to atmosphere during gear changes, but I think I can live with that. ***x1f642;


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## snuffy (Mar 26, 2014)

m1ac_drew said:


> I imagine that for a while, I won't use the paddle shifters, but will instead use the gear lever in sequential manual mode, just because that is where my left hand is used to being. It will probably also help me not to flick the wrong paddle in the heat of the moment.


I think you may be a bit confused there.

There's no "gear level in sequential manual" for you to move. The gear level is in either Auto or Manual (so like a "drive" position) (there are no other gear positions to select, apart from park, reverse or neutral. So if you are in Auto, the car does all the gear changes for you. If you are in Manual (which is actually semi-automatic), you change up and down with the paddles (the car will also change up and down for you, even in Manual, depending on various things, like what mode the gearbox is in, what your engine revs are etc).

Anyway, you'll find all that out shortly !


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## m1ac_drew (Apr 2, 2002)

Oh, maybe I'm confusing my memories with the Audi TTS I tested! I remembered putting it over into M and then being able to hit forward and backward for up and down...


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## AndyE14 (Mar 22, 2010)

m1ac_drew said:


> Oh, maybe I'm confusing my memories with the Audi TTS I tested! I remembered putting it over into M and then being able to hit forward and backward for up and down...


Yes all the VW Group dual clutch gearboxes allow you to use the gear lever as a sequential change in addition to paddles where the are fitted. I thought the GTR let you do this too but must confess I only ever use the paddles in manual. 

As to a manual gearbox I still do not understand why anyone would want to make the GTR slower and worse. No manual gearbox is going to be quicker than a double clutch box.


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## m1ac_drew (Apr 2, 2002)

Picked up the 35 today and no, definitely cannot use the stick to manually change gears. 

Do I miss the third pedal? Not even in the slightest! I love having the best of both worlds: automatic for just ambling around and switch to manual when I want to do something exciting. I did once hit the down paddle when I should have hit the up. The rev limited kicked in and I think it changed up for me, which is a good thing actually. That's probably less of an actual disadvantage and more a case of my needing to develop muscle memory.

To be honest, she is so rapid (stage 4.25) that I am glad to keep my hands on the wheel, especially through winding country roads. It's enough of a challenge trying to manage the steering, acceleration and braking without having to clutch and fiddle with the stick.

As explained by others in previous posts, the dual clutch has zero wind up delay, it's just go go go; instant gratification!

Staying on full boost during gear changes is so epic. You run out of road before you know it, unless you're on a motorway, which is dull because it's too straight and not wise either for multiple reasons.

Before today, I would have called myself a hardcore stick shift fanatic. I even have the Logitech G29 steering wheel, gear shifter and three pedal system for the PC and PS4, but after today, I am totally won over. I'd like to reassure anyone hesitating in buying an R35 because it doesn't have a clutch pedal that you won't miss it at all.


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## m1ac_drew (Apr 2, 2002)

Oh, I was also concerned about not having much engine braking, since in a manual I tend to use the engine to slow down more than the brakes, but I can happily report that downshifting adds a nice predictable amount of engine braking, and it sounds absolutely awesome.


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