# Litchfield Stage 2



## bcoles (Mar 1, 2011)

Guys,

i wanted to take a moment to mention how pleased I am after my mid week visit to Litchfields for a 18 month service and optimization followed by a stage 2 upgrade .

Firstly the service was done on time and at a fantastic price compared to any HPC, and secoundly the stage two upgrade using the new ECUTEK switchable map ECU, which not only seems to be making the fuel efficiency more economical, but even more importantly has really added extra useable power throughout the rev range. i have today been to Surrey rolling road, and they confirmed the BHP as 593.4 and fFtLb as 610, awesome results just from the stage two, thanks Iain and the team, great work, a very happy customer.

Branden


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

bcoles said:


> Guys,
> 
> i wanted to take a moment to mention how pleased I am after my mid week visit to Litchfields for a 18 month service and optimization followed by a stage 2 upgrade .
> 
> ...


Brandan, nice stats. What makes up the Litchfield stage 2?

I opted (after much deliberation) for the Cobb route & power is a tad higher but torque a tad lower than the figures you've posted so curious what's in the Stage 2?


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## saucyboy (Nov 1, 2009)

w8pmc said:


> Brandan, nice stats. What makes up the Litchfield stage 2?
> 
> I opted (after much deliberation) for the Cobb route & power is a tad higher but torque a tad lower than the figures you've posted so curious what's in the Stage 2?


I think it's the following

Miltek Y Pipe
Miltek Back box
Piper x filters
Remap using ECUTEK

Jimbo


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## VG_R35 (Dec 31, 2009)

I'm constantly impressed with the torque figures that Litchfield achieve. You're in gear acceleration must be awesome. I wonder what their Stage 4 tune numbers are.

I'm sure a smarter person than me can explain how they manage this


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## R33_GTS-t (Apr 27, 2005)

saucyboy said:


> I think it's the following
> 
> Miltek Y Pipe
> Miltek Back box
> ...


ECUTEK? Anything to do with the ECU upgrades that used to be done of Evos?


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

saucyboy said:


> I think it's the following
> 
> Miltek Y Pipe
> Miltek Back box
> ...



Cheers, that would make sense as my stage 2 didn't include any changes to filters intakes, just Tune & Zorst.

Great results. Makes such a difference & i often giggle myself when flicking the maps from stock to tune as it's like night & day.

Gonna get another dyno run in a couple of weeks to see what the latest editions equal.


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## bcoles (Mar 1, 2011)

Hi,

Yes the Milltek ypipe/exhaust, filters and ECU remap. I have a photo of the print out from the dyno run today, but I cant seem to upload it to prove the stats!

For me, its the piece of mind knowing Litchfield have worked on my car and will continue to for any servicing or general upkeep. Worth the trip imo.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Switchable maps?

Contemplating ecutek or Cobb and have been having a tough time of it.

Iain's reputation for tuning cars is something of a pull factor.


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## bcoles (Mar 1, 2011)

They both will produce similar results, and I'm sure there are plenty of happy Cobb customers who will testify to that. The ecutek now allows you o choose between a road and race map viancruise control buttons, very simple and very effective with choicest allow economical driving ( for a GTR anyway)

For me peace of mind that any issued Litchfields know and service my car now anyway, and will be best placed to support me if the need be.


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## bcoles (Mar 1, 2011)

Apologies for typos!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Thanks for the reply, it's a big consideration, especially since I am contemplating a lot of litchfields other products namely the brakes, and his 2011+ suspension upgrade (yet to be released). Does make sense to keep it in one place I suppose.

I would really love it if someone could point by point actually compare the Cobb and th ecutek, preferably someone who knows them both, but at the moment not sure that person exists (cept maybe an ecutek staff member but I can't see them posting). 

I know the basic advantages that the Cobb displays such as owning hardware and some other displays, but those aren't the most important consideration for me, so I need more info.

For me it comes down to what tools the mapper has available to him in order to produce the better map. Not all ecus are equal I remember this when I was deliberating between pectel and motec on my Subaru. In this case we have equal ecus but not necessarily equally developed software. It's the software development that will determine exactly what features the mapper has available to them and it's those that enable him to produce a better map, ie. Smoother, more efficient, better boost control, control of useful features.

My natural reaction would be to assume the Cobb has the lead because of how extensively it is used, but I'm not sure that's the case.

You have the very capable skills of thistle on one hand, but you have have th entire development team of ecutek on the other, who only do ecus all day long, nothing else, and it's all they have been doing for about ten years now. 

I only have clues of info to suggest ecutek might be ahead, such as the fact that the 2011 software has been working for a while now, and that their original GTR software was up and running and working really well before John even got involved in making the Cobb what it is today.

The only other significant thing I can think of is the speed density thing. I know John is working on it, but Iain tells me it's been working on the ecutek for sone time now and not as a choice of simply maf or map but switchable within the map when desired with a smooth transition.

I have no real need for speed density at the moment, but that's an indicator to me that ecutek may be in the lead development-wise.

But I need more to go on, so if anyone could actually come up with some examples of the intricate differences, I'm sure it would help me, and maybe a lot of other people to make an informed choice rather than astatement like, "all the fastest cars have cobbs" or "you can't sell on an ecuteck". I think that Cobb statement is true but since mapping for the drag strip is much easier than making a mild mannered practical and smooth road car, that statement doesn't help me much. I know the ecutek statement is true but again to me it is immaterial in my consideration of which to purchase.

I'd appreciate any facts on the differences, rather than subjective statements if possible.


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## JoZeff (Feb 2, 2010)

Iain litchfield is looking to obtaining the software for the Cobb so that he is able to cater for the demands of cobb users also, he would therefore be ideally placed to make those clear distinctions for you. It is clear to me which he prefers at present. The clincher for me though is the fact that litchfields and ecutek have been pulling apart a my11 already to completely understand the dynamics to provide better tuning, not clear if 
GTC have that capacity and investment capability. I also like that the ecutek tuning is performed on your car with you in situ, rather than via email exchange and if you let litchfields perform servicing and upgrades they will know you car and tune It Appropriately.


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## Rich-GT (Apr 2, 2008)

A very good question :thumbsup:, however it's one that we will never get a definitave answer to, there is almost certainly not a black & white answer.

So to declare my position. I have been a GTC / Cobb customer since quite early on, and have no experience of ECUTek. Here are my random thoughts on the question.

In the early days it was an easy choice to go with Cobb, although ECUTek had a lot of experience, they were very new to the R35 GT-R and there was no real data available, wheras the Cobb AP was well established in the US, with a large and growing customer base, with plenty of data to back up the gains.

Add to that the great convenience of doing the firmware upgrade yourself, data logging and tuning via email, and the ability to load and try different maps, or go back to standard and it was a very easy decision which way to go.

I have a completely standard car except for a GTC Stage 2 tune and have over the last 2 Years been very happy with the performance and power delivery. It has done an 11.05 1/4 mile however my main sport is Sprinting, the tune knocked seconds of a typical lap. I am always amazed how "slow" the car feels when I uninstall the AP when taking it in for a service..

Howerver in the tuning world things do not stand still and both the Cobb & the ECUTec have developed in leaps and bounds over the last 2 Years. Remember as well as Thistle who is responsible for some of the mapping inovations there is a large team back at Cobb in the US.

The Cobb AP is however far more than just an ECU tuning tool. ( I could say it's a way of life, but that might be overstating it a bit.  ) I also have and use the TCM upgrades that the Cobb allows to the Launch and look foreward to LC4 that I am sure will emerge one day. I have frequently used the DTC reset functionality and value the clutch relearn and adjust that the Cobb makes possible. Looks like we will also soon have the ability to relearn TPMS codes for alternate wheels. :thumbsup:

So all very positive for the Cobb, but I will admit that if I was making a decision Today it would be more difficult. Now that my car is in it's 3rd Year I will almost certainly start taking it to Litchfield's for servicing.

Because of that I will look to them for oil, brake disk & pad change advice and if I can be persuaded that changes to the exhaust or intakes can be done and still stick within the noise limits for places like Goodwood & Castle Combe, then it's all to easy to have them do that as well.  So at that point it would be very convenient to also have the ECUTek tune and have it all neatly looked after by the same people??

My gut feeling of an answer is that the performance gains of both tuners are similar. I would however like to see a few graphs for the ECUTek, there are loads around for the Cobb, but I have yet to see one for the ECUTek? At any point in time one may have an edge in a particular area, however they are keeping eachother honest, inovating of their own right and also responding to what the other does. Having them both is of great benefit to us all. :thumbsup:

I do not know if the ECUTek can do on the road logging? But would be very reluctant to give up this feature. Having Ben / Thistle able to look at and respond to real world logs, on the road, track and drag strip is very valauble and gives great peace of mind.

However if you live close to Litchfield / use them for servicing I would say it makes sense to go with ECUTek, if not then you are probably better off with GTC / Cobb.

All of that said even if you go with ECUTek, I would still advise owning a Cobb just for the TCM functions, DTC reset, TPMS learning etc. 


Rich


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Doubt you'll ever get right under the covers as to the differences. I thought Litchfield already supplied Cobb as well as Ecutek?

The differences are no doubt minimal but for me i like the convenience of tuning on the fly, having the ability to change maps myself using the Cobb & also alter mapping on the fly via the cruise control. The Cobb has other uses such as datalogging, performance testing & collecting/clearing error codes.

Outputs appear very very close & i'm sure the on road drivability is very similar in the 2 systems so really all about personal choice. Even small factors like location as i'm over 200 miles away from GTC & 160 miles from Litchfields so sending the map via email & me uploading it is a far cheaper option.

Very likely i'll look to Litchfields for servicing later in my cars life & i'd certainly trust them with my car, but for now Middlehursts being only 5 miles from me are the easier option.

Really glad both are so close as it makes deciding between them pretty much a personal choice which is a great thing for GT-R tuning.

Be interested to see what increase the new filters, intakes & injectors has made to mine.

Where have you noticed the biggest differences with your Stage 2? Not sure i'm getting better economy as the desire to depress the loud pedal is too great but other than that the uplift in performance is everywhere in the rev range & truly epic. Still enjoy switching between tune & stock when out on the road to remind me how big the gap is.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

To my knowledge exutek does map switching. I noticed someone in this thread mentioned it and so I questioned but it's not been answered yet. I am sure I have heard that ecutek is already capable of logging and remote mapping too, or maybe I'm getting confused. Someone please chime in!!


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## Chris956 (Apr 11, 2010)

Straight lift from the Ecutek website :

RaceROM Features In Depth

RaceROM Features

EcuTek RaceROM was developed to enhance the standard OEM ECU with additional features. These are some of the features that are implemented in the range of ECU supported by RaceROM.

Currently, RaceROM is available for Subaru electronic-throttle vehicles, and will be available for Nissan GT-R R35 shortly. Other vehicles will be supported in the future.

General RaceROM Features

These RaceROM features are generally available on all vehicles.

Map Switching

Map switching gives you the ability to swap between two calibrations that can be tailored to your requirements. For example:

"Road Mode" and "Race Mode", can provide two sets of maps for civilised driving to conserve fuel, and then a high performance calibration for track days or racing.
"Valet Mode" A low performance mode if you have to put your car into someone else's care.
"Anti-Theft Mode" A mode where the car just doesn't work unless you know how to change maps.
Switching calibration can be done in several different ways, including whilst driving.

Each calibration can include its own set of other RaceROM features, such as flat-foot shifting or auto throttle downshift blip.

Per-Gear Boost Control

Per gear boost control allows separate boost calibrations for each gear, thereby maximising boost control options and flexibility. For example, boost may be reduced in 1st gear to prevent wheel spin, but raised in 3rd-6th for increased performance.

Per-Gear Rev Limits

This feature allows per gear rev limits to be configured. It could be used to improve 0-60 times by allowing a higher 2nd gear limit to just hit 60 mph / 100 km/h in 2nd, whilst preserving the lower rev limit in other gears.

And specific to GTR`s :


Nissan GT-R: Wide Range Boost Limit Maps

The standard ECU uses 8-bit maps to restrict boost pressure, you can now use wide range boost limit maps to increase the boost limit to higher levels.

Nissan GT-R: Upshift boost spike prevention

When running increased levels of boost, the ECU can be programmed to maintain a steady boost pressure to avoid boost spikes while changing gear.

Nissan GT-R: RaceROM Boost Controller

The desired boost can be controlled using the cruise control switches. The boost setup can be displayed on the GTR's LCD display too.

Nissan GT-R: MAF Left-Right Swap

Several aftermarket intercoolers switch the intake plumbing in relation to the stock intercooler. This switches the input from the MAF sensors to ensure correct fuelling to each bank of the engine.

Nissan GT-R: Large fuel injector support

Injectors over 800cc are not supported by the original ECU as standard. This enhancement allows the use of almost any size of injector.

Nissan GT-R: Extra Parameter Logging

GTR RaceROM enables FlashCAN GTR tuning software to measure & record extra diagnostic parameters, not accessable as standard. These parameters include knock correction, boost error, timing adjustment, mass airflow per bank and many others.

Nissan GT-R: Visual knock warning

Shows a visual warning of knock using the dashboard's check engine light.


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## AndyBrew (Feb 2, 2011)

I had an Ecutek remap on my evo 8 many years ago and I have to say it was faultless what with the remap and a zaust my evo gsr 260 went to 360hp that still to this day was my best ever remap experience, with the car still driving perfectly, perfect cold starts, perfect idle, no weird random stalling etc etc.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

AndyBrew said:


> I had an Ecutek remap on my evo 8 many years ago and I have to say it was faultless what with the remap and a zaust my evo gsr 260 went to 360hp that still to this day was my best ever remap experience, with the car still driving perfectly, perfect cold starts, perfect idle, no weird random stalling etc etc.


To be fair, since both options use the stock ecu I'm sure all those features will remain just as comfortably in both. That's the nature of remapping the stock ecu.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

No one except Litchfield has Ecutek's GTR tuning software, or at least no one that is talking about it openly on forums and showing results. Just about every other significant GTR tuner all over the world (except Japan because they like their own stuff) and now users have Cobb's GTR tuning software and its use and results from it are all out there on the forums (especially NAGTROC) being discussed daily. So that makes comparison feature by feature a little difficult, but all the "new" features except speed density and throttle mapping have been a part of our tuning software for between 7 and 20 months, and if you look at NAGTROC you'll find nearly all the listed innovations described by me first (including throttle mapping and speed density this year), so long ago that most of them are no longer mentioned as they are in use on over a thousand GTRs.

I've been putting an average of nearly full time hours into developing ONLY the GTR ECU for nearly 2 years with 3 years reverse engineering on the same processor on the Evo before that, plus Joe Graham has also full time on GTR until very recently, and they have extensive experience of earlier Nissan models using the same operating system. That is just on the reverse engineering and firmware development side.

I chose pure speed density because it is best on the GTR based on my assessment of the data which shows enhanced smoothness in all engine operating conditions. I did not choose it because MAF sensors were maxxed because using alternate MAF sensors AND larger housings has been routine for some time and they don't max until about 1500 HP. The problem is that the size of the turbos/inlets that some of our tuners are now using gives problems with MAF readings across their entire voltage range. What we've found is the cars that need speed density because of stability (rather than stock MAF sensor flow limitation in larger tubes), need it everywhere. Our tuners based in the US and Middle East in particular tend to use rather large intakes and turbos compared to the UK (except SVM) which gives us a lot of information about what is needed to produce a fast GTR, which is why you'll find Cobb running nearly all the 9 second cars and winning our class in Time Attack USA last year. There wasn't actually a need for speed density until January if you were already using large MAFs and aftermarket MAF sensors. I was avoiding developing it unless it was necessary. To make blended speed density would be a few days of coding, but there is no need to complicate things further and our tuners greatly appreciate the smoothness in all operating conditions from this choice.

With regards to map switching and realtime mapping, the variety of maps that can be switched and the customisation is very advanced. I could switch between virtually limitless maps but chose to limit to 9 for clarity. We can for example tune from stock to over 1000 HP with just a single flash at the start to setup realtime, and a single flash at the end to store it permanently in the ECU. The desire to have this in the new car was what has produced the delays in adding support. Cobb have a MY12 (= our MY11) but it arrived a month after would have been ideal and unfortunately wasn't in the same place as Joe or I due to the company moving from Utah to Texas. However, I have to say Litchfield's work on the MY12 has been most impressive.

So Adam, if you look you'll find more innovation going on than you realised as what seems new all happened with our product ages ago in the wonderful crucible that happens when you have people like AMS, Switzer, SVM/GTC running 9 second cars, and GOTO, Forged Performance, Stillen (and many others) competing in circuit/road course events. Many of the technically savvy UK users like Rich-GT and charles charlie (and many others) have seen the progress of the product as it has developed, whereas you've arrived at the GTR party a little later. Have a look on NAGTROC at my earlier posts and you'll see how early some of this stuff has been developed and how we identified the need for it first. The sales and results don't come from being a "me too" product. Apart from being a bit later on the MY12, I would be interested to see any area where we've been behind.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

So would I John, that's why I'd like to see a like for like comparison between the capabilities if the software.

I am torn between wanting to get involved in the mapping and just wanting to forget about it.

I feel at the moment that the price if the Cobb is for the hardware. That pains me purely because I have laptops and obd2 cables which are far more powerful. The ap is just s portal for mapping much like downloading ecu lashed used to be only it was free.

If the features of ecutek that I am hoping for are forthcoming then this is probably going to be one of those questions of going for the product that is chosen by the tuner you have the most faith and trust in.

That just means asking Iain and most probably Ben objective questions and deciding based on their answers. Pretty much square one for me then!

So far all I know is that I've never heard Iain say a bad thing about the Cobb but that puts a tick in both columns!

So far Ben hasn't been quite so gracious about the ecutek!


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Here is a list of documented innovations on the GTR platform. You will note some familiar themes, many of them are hardly new, and guess who documented them first?

Knock logging - Accessport - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

OEM wastegate control overhaul - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Cobb boost limit success - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Update on boost control - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Balancing the banks - summary of known issues/solutions/guidance - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

HPX MAF calcs - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Accessport developments - map switching, faster flashing etc - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Higher reading pressure sensors for 25 to 58+ PSI boost - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Speed density smoothness - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

12 items for logging is a pain, how about 32? - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Fix for very high speed enrichment - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

Throttle map switching using cruise control buttons - NAGTROC - The Nissan GT-R Owners Club

The biggest cost of the AP is not hardware but the development behind it. Your physical device is the equivalent if you like to your Ecutek license, except you can move it to another car and resell it, both probably useful to you


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Adamantium said:


> So far all I know is that I've never heard Iain say a bad thing about the Cobb but that puts a tick in both columns!
> 
> So far Ben hasn't been quite so gracious about the ecutek!


It wouldn’t be the first time   

Anyway moving on. The Ecutek vs Cobb thing has been done before and I have said what I think about these two excellent products, nothing has changed in my mind and I’m sure in another years time my view will be the same. The end user won’t be disappointed with either product as John's post above proves :thumbsup:

We will have the Cobb Tuner software (have played with it a bit recently) as the number of enquires we get for Cobb custom tunes is ever increasing  In fact I rang to speak to Scott at Cobb not long ago but the investment in other priorities like some more ramps and the new Consult3+ took precedent. 

Rich, Ecutek will shortly release the OBD cable and software which will allow us to provide remote mapping for customers that can’t make it over to us :clap: and it will also enable the use their powerful data logging and analysis software 

I’m glad you are happy with the results from your Stage2 upgrade Brendan  Look forward to working on your car again.

Regards

Iain


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Thistle

Is there any known differences in torque/bhp between the 2 given the same car and mods to work with?

Reason i ask is that I have heard from several sources than ECUTEK gets slightly higher torque than the Cobb, but at the sacrafice of a very small amount of ponies at high revs.

Is this a load of bull or something you are aware of?

David


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

The main difference will be the dyno, temp conditions, car/setup and how much boost/fuel/ign/Cam timing the tuner chooses to run. The software choice will come towards the bottom of the list


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Agree with Iain as I usually do (it is Ecutek that have been unpleasant about me) and Ecutek have clearly made a lot of improvements. However, the power and torque possible on stock turbos hasn't moved since late 2009 when proper boost control was possible. This along with knock logging greatly improved the stage 1 and 2 cars. Since then later developments are new features and unlocking higher mod states.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

I am most likely only a one of a few who has tried both on my car on here

I'm in the litchfield camp now after a cobb map had the injectors running 100% for too long on a agressive bespoke map, yes you might get more power but you need your engine to run after another 20K miles....


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## [email protected] (May 16, 2003)

Adamantium said:


> So would I John, that's why I'd like to see a like for like comparison between the capabilities if the software.
> 
> I am torn between wanting to get involved in the mapping and just wanting to forget about it.
> 
> ...



Adam, i listed the exact same benefits of the AccessPORT which John has done in this thread, directing you to online threads, did i not ?. i have not used ecutek on gtr, we are pro Cobb. my only comment on ecutek was that cobb has by far more tuners around the world with feedback for further development, such as ams running 1000hp+ on a mile straight to discover engine load and inj pulse dropping out, now fixed by john's code. You asked for comparisons so i said the only real world comparisons appear to be the 0-400 drag times which cobb tuned cars are getting good times. dyno's comparisons on different dyno's, different set ups are unfair.


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## axolotl (May 29, 2008)

I'm also very pleased with my Litchfield Stage 2. It has totally transformed the performance and even improved the fuel economy a little too. This is the first time I've ever had a car tuned. It was a last minute decision after chatting with David Yu who I met at Litchfields. Despite it being a last minute decision Iain kindly did all the work while I waited. Very impressed all round! Andrew


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## Arcam (Jun 30, 2009)

Litchfield said:


> ...Rich, Ecutek will shortly release the OBD cable and software which will allow us to provide remote mapping for customers that can’t make it over to us :clap: and it will also enable the use their powerful data logging and analysis software


Now that will be a most welcome addition Iain :thumbsup:


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Our pleasure Andrew  seems the GTR is a Doctors brand of choice


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

I was not going to say anything until people started asking for comparisons, but a polite and respectful comparison should not be a problem. Consumers need the information to be able to decide both between tuners and products. Competition and comparison improve things.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Robbie J said:


> I am most likely only a one of a few who has tried both on my car on here
> 
> I'm in the litchfield camp now after a cobb map had the injectors running 100% for too long on a agressive bespoke map, yes you might get more power but you need your engine to run after another 20K miles....


A bespoke map is not finished until datalogs and revised map have gone back and forth. Did this occur and do you still have the logs? I am puzzled too as your original post that was emailed referred to my name yet I didn't see logs.

Just curious to know what went wrong as I am always telling people to reduce boost or buy injectors and Ben is as well.


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

Interesting thread!
I had an 09 GTR with a Stage 2 Cobb and it was a transformation from the standard mapping that the car came with. 

There is a lot of technical talk on this thread, but I can only judge from experience and 25,000 miles in R35 GTR's 

For my new MY11 car I chose to let Iain loose on it rather than use the Cobb, and apart from the new car being almost as quick as the stage 2 Cobb from standard, the Ecutec Stage 2 with full Milltek and air filters is incredible.

The main difference is the drivability with so much torque that the performance is just there from far lower RPM through the gears. This linked with the ability to adjust the turbo boost from the steering wheel (which also alters other settings as well) the flexibility and options are endless. This coupled with the 'Save' mode gives me every different way of driving the car and I can almost pretend to be 'economical'

With full boost and in R mode throughout, the car is supremely quick and hopefully on track will give me all I can cope with. I am using the car at tomorrows trackday at Silverstone, and although only the South circuit is in use, it will give me a good comparison with the old 09 model with the Cobb stage 2.

I am not saying that the Cobb is worse or better, but I just wanted to judge the difference and give Iain Litchfield the opportunity to show me what the Ecutec can do with his 'personal' touches. Iain has never over exaggerated the potential, and in my opinion he probably undersells himself. His knowledge of the new MY11 is so vast having stripped one done to its bones and rebuilt it that I have enormous confidence in the knowledge that he knows what he is talking about. 
Thank you Iain


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I didn't want this to turn into a slanging match so if people see it that way I am sorry.

I'd actually like this thread to become a lot more technical. Both iain and John know me so will know the level of technical detail that appeals to me.

I have experience of iains customer and I know it to be excellent but ibtecently ordered a part from Ben and also found it to be great. No complaints there. Ben if I tell you which of your comments I wasn't keen on it will just give more credit and publicity go them and I don't need or want to do that, especially if it causes arguments.

I'd rather keep this technical and with that in mind i'll keep asking questions

John, going back to the ecuflash days the software was clunky and not very user friendly. Is the tuner version of the Cobb designed to be very user friendly or is most of the development aimed at the hardware since most users won't be bothered by the tuning side of things?

Obviously the ecutek side of this is irrelevant as it's not yet at all available to the end user without spending prohibitive money.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Ecuflash was fine if you had a good XML definition file, but there was never much effort to make everything the same and well documented for all models because this stuff is mundane for open source developers, so it appeals more to people that are a bit techie.

AccessTuner Race has its own dedicated support forum and email support and we have put considerable effort into documentation, tutorials, videos etc. Starting off tuning VR38 is something many will not want to do if they haven't tuned something cheaper before, but the feedback has been very good and the support effectively extends to a guided remote tune where you could see what I alter and why. For a new tuner we would recommend doing this on stock intakes and turbos initially.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Thanks John, just what I needed. Can I browse the support forums openly together the basics or do I need the tuner software first to gain access?

I would check now myself but I'm supposed to be cooking a BBQ for my wife's friends! I managed to steal an iPhone moment!


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Open access.


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

I think both offerings are fantastic & as in my earlier post i'm pretty sure any decision between the 2 tuning options is down to personal taste & i've only ever heard great things about both.

That said, i don't really understand what's under the covers or in the code, i just like the giggles it induces.


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## Happydays (Mar 15, 2011)

I am also thinking seriously about some tuning and have been spending much time looking at what is being said about Litchfield Ecotec vs Cobb etc. I have only just had my GTR optimised and have the Miltec Y pipe via Robbie (bought from Litchfield) and probably dont actually need any more power or torque for road use. ( but needing and wanting are different eh!) Having the newer MY11 has given me a bit more time as development of tuning for this is still ongoing, and I am still uncertain as to the power and torque gains I would get just with the Y pipe and some OEM ECu tuning. Can anyone help here? 
I am a bit of a tech junkie and have followed with great interest the work being done by SVM currently on the 850bhp cars (its oh so tempting!) - so finding it difficult to decide. Also some years ago I tuned 2 other cars a step too far and really got fingers burnt when the tech know how wasnt there (and no internet to get answers). The first was in the mid eighties when I turbochrged a Sierra 2 litre putting ever bigger turbos through twin dellorto carbs and no engine managment - a long saga I wont go into - but learnt a lot and had a lot of fun when it was on the road, and then have had 2 x Nissan 300ZXTT which have had various tuning done in the nineties.
So many thanks to those far more adept than me in arguing the case, as I can feel my resistance slipping and will have to make some decisions soon. In the meantime just loving the car.:thumbsup:


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Happydays you are welcome to drive my 2011 demonstrator which currently running our stage 2 map  ECU and parts development for the 2011 cars is at the same level as the earlier GTRs

We are just about to start our engine testing on the GTR which will involve a different ECU altogether


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## ChuckUK (Jan 1, 2009)

Litchfield said:


> Happydays you are welcome to drive my 2011 demonstrator which currently running our stage 2 map  ECU and parts development for the 2011 cars is at the same level as the earlier GTRs
> 
> We are just about to start our engine testing on the GTR which will involve a different ECU altogether


Interesting, so does this mean the tuning potential of the 2011 is no more than previous models ?


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Chuck it depends on the level of tune as the standard turbos will hold a bit more boost so you can create a bit more top end power, assuming bigger injectors etc are fitted.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

What does a stage 2 MY2011 put out compared to a MY09 or MY10?

Are potential gains at higher tune levels?

David

PS Iain - you have 2 e-mails from me!


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't think there's any specific gain to be had from the 2011 engine, but I remember Iain said to me something about the 2011 being quite a bit more advanced, with specifically the boost control being a substantial improvement in that it delivers exactly what's asked of it. But this wouldn't deliver more power for a given boost pressure.


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

bcoles said:


> Guys,
> 
> i wanted to take a moment to mention how pleased I am after my mid week visit to Litchfields for a 18 month service and optimization followed by a stage 2 upgrade .
> 
> ...


I have Litchfield stage 3 which is supposed to be 585bhp - I better get on that RR


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

If the stage 3 has intakes over and above stage 2 you should get another 10-15 ponies and marginally less lag (very little then!).

So should read around 600 ponies on a cool day.

D


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## bluediamond (Sep 6, 2010)

*Has anyone else got a better comparative experience*



Robbie J said:


> I am most likely only a one of a few who has tried both on my car on here
> 
> I'm in the litchfield camp now after a cobb map had the injectors running 100% for too long on a agressive bespoke map, yes you might get more power but you need your engine to run after another 20K miles....


I went with Iain because of his reputation.
A desire to have a car that remained long term reliable, and could be regularly looked after by a company with the know how and equipment to make sure it was standing up to the stress.
I have never doubted my decision was sound. There's a depth of understanding and enthusiasm at Litchfields which is very reassuring. 
For me the switchable map is a nice update but I suspect its going to spend most of its time in full beans mode. The same would be true if there were a whole range of other map choices. If it goes to Litchfield for servicing then no need to muck about reverting to stock maps.
I dont pretend to know enough to understand Thistles detailed analysis, I think his reputation and the number of satisfied customers speaks for itself, but, only Robbie appears to have run cars with both and therefore have a true comparative experience.
But whether Cobbs allow 9s 1/4s or not is a bit irrelevant if it is impratical to expect the car to run for 1000s of miles running that level of tune.

On another note, the Milltek system is only 98db so is pretty Goodwood/Bedford friendly for those considering track days.


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## Rich-GT (Apr 2, 2008)

bluediamond said:


> On another note, the Milltek system is only 98db so is pretty Goodwood/Bedford friendly for those considering track days.



If I could be sure of dB of the Miltek exhaust I will upgrade mine. My standard exhaust stated at 85dB is now reading 90dB plus at Goowood. 

Is this a claimed figure or one that you have had measured at Goodwood or any other track. Is this a full Miltek system?


Thanks


Rich


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

My reply about Robbie's tune is in post 33. I am glad you're happy but let's not make a comparison on a car that I am told didn't complete the custom tuning process, that was posted as having been tuned by me but wasn't?

It would be much like tasting a baker's uncooked dough vs another baker's finished product.

I would still like the chance to see the datalogs and comment on them, there is an ongoing thread on NAGTROC where they are dissected in public. Best get the hard data before jumping to conclusions.

As for running thousands of miles with a tune that can run 9s, why is that impractical when it has been done already? AMS have the power to run 8s but are regularly doing very low 9s with a car they have driven thousands of miles around the US exactly to illustrate this very point. There is even a daily driver that does 10.0 on stock turbos on stock engine reliably.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

John, which car runs 10.0 on stock turbo and engine? I'd love to see what he has done to help get it there.

I think it's worth making the point that being able to run great times safely is more a testiment of the mapper and the ecu than the product used to hack the ecu.

It also used to be that it was much harder mapping a car to be great on the road than it was to get the most power out of it. That may no longer be the case as it appears the stock ecu is far more advanced than the ecus I have knowledge of. Most of these were after market and more about race applications. 

It used to be about the quality of the map in the lower zones, and the transition between zones, the resolution of the map, the atmospheric corrections combined with trying to use as little fuel as possible. I am guessing I am now way behind the times.

John, with you have having the knowledge you do, any chance you could either post up or point me to a thread (perhaps one from memory) that lists what the stock ecu can do compared with maybe the typical features of say a pectel or motec.

I mean things like:

knock control
closed loop wide band control
individual cylinder trim for fuelling and ignitiion?
resolution of the map

is there capacity for controlling external outputs like you used to do on the evo?

how much flexibility is there for programming the display of the mfd or are you confined to manipulating the reading of the existing gauges?

that kind of thing - is there a bullet point list somewhere of what the stock ecu can do, as I'd love to know how good it really is.

If you don't have time, I completely understand as I know how busy you are.


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## bluediamond (Sep 6, 2010)

[
As for running thousands of miles with a tune that can run 9s, why is that impractical when it has been done already? AMS have the power to run 8s but are regularly doing very low 9s with a car they have driven thousands of miles around the US exactly to illustrate this very point. There is even a daily driver that does 10.0 on stock turbos on stock engine reliably.[/QUOTE]

I am not suggesting its impractical to do that, just that the technical support that those cars receive is of a different order to a UK based car that sees a dealer every 6 months. 
GTRs are clearly proving to be very strong indeed on the whole, but no-one wants to have their engine detonating on some slip road somewhere chasing even more performance if they can help it.Its about peace of mind as well tbh.

I am not qualified to offer opinions on Cobb or especially your work John, other than point out, as I did, that its very well regarded indeed. 

It seems clear that both are very effective ways of releasing the cars potential and if both work well then owners are not going to be changing from one to the other very often. Unless that is the case its impossible to make absolute comparisons.


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## David.Yu (Jun 28, 2001)

axolotl said:


> I'm also very pleased with my Litchfield Stage 2. It has totally transformed the performance and even improved the fuel economy a little too. This is the first time I've ever had a car tuned. It was a last minute decision after chatting with David Yu who I met at Litchfields. Despite it being a last minute decision Iain kindly did all the work while I waited. Very impressed all round! Andrew


I'm glad you're enjoying your Litchfield Stage 2 Andy, as I said on the other thread, I was sure you would!

Just for clarification (and so I don't get dragged into any arguments), I was not advocating Ecutek over Cobb or vice versa, merely reassuring Andy that such an upgrade would be completely safe and completely mindblowing (from either company).

I was completely delighted with the excellent service Iain's company provided for my 24 month service and will be following his developments with great interest. 

However, as things stand, I am also very happy to let Ben at GTC continue to map my car.

:thumbsup:


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

No arguments here David.


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

Sorry, on a boat can't post much. Loads of ecu and standalone debate on nagtroc. Sleepdoc has the 10.0 on there.


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## EA74GTR (Sep 13, 2010)

Do we know what the cost of the stage 2 mapping is and the comparable cost vs. a Cobb ?


Thanks


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## w8pmc (Sep 16, 2010)

Still happy that 2 reputable tuners offer 2 slightly different solutions & both offer very similar outputs.

To me that's all good & just a matter of personal pref & for me i chose Cobb for the felexibility it offered me.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

EA74GTR said:


> Do we know what the cost of the stage 2 mapping is and the comparable cost vs. a Cobb ?
> 
> 
> Thanks


The Cobb route would cost you around £1200 inc VAT for a customised tune.

The ECUTEK route would be around £700 inc VAT but you have no device to sell on, read and reset fault codes, datalog etc

You will also need an aftermarket Y pipe and exhaust to maximise the benefits for both.

You pays your money and you take your choice - both excellent products.

D


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Iain suggested that there is a cable about to be released that lets you datalog from the ecu using a conventional laptop. No idea if it does the performance stats etc but he said it would allow remote mapping and the production of lots of pretty charts and tables.


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## Robbie J (Jan 8, 2005)

on Thistle post


> I would still like the chance to see the datalogs and comment on them, there is an ongoing thread on NAGTROC where they are dissected in public. Best get the hard data before jumping to conclusions.


the cobb map had injectors 100% duty cycle, recommending injectors is correct but the fundamental issue with "e" tuning as the receiving tuner supplied with this said its good to go. e-tuning means delay and chances for miss-communication 

having a laptop and adjusting by a tuner realtime in the car on a rolling road/street is the best method, I want something reliable in the end that can take a hot day in traffic then blast without blowing up!


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

So if the injectors are at 100% duty cycle you have a few choices. Make it leaner, leave it alone if tested in the coldest conditions possible, change injectors or reduce boost. This is simple communication between tuner and user, obviously this went wrong, but it was nothing to do with me, I never received a log from your car that I recall.

Most of the issues Ben reports with e tunes are customers not getting back quickly enough with logs. When I used to support Ben for tuning I would commonly be looking at logs at all hours, the turn around was instant from me 7 days a week during waking hours.


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## bluediamond (Sep 6, 2010)

Matt Black GT-R said:


> my ECUTEK map was only £500, not £700.


Yeah, Me too. + Milltek Y Pipe @ £399. 
Circa 540 bhp for £900.

Thats stonking VFM. There's a law of diminishing returns above that in fairness. Exhaust, intakes, injectors etc etc
But that first step is the biggie:thumbsup:


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## EA74GTR (Sep 13, 2010)

Blue Diamond 

If it cost 500 to map to stage 1, would the stage 2 map also be 500 ?
Is there any additional cost like buying the license etc ?


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## bluediamond (Sep 6, 2010)

EA74GTR said:


> Blue Diamond
> 
> If it cost 500 to map to stage 1, would the stage 2 map also be 500 ?
> Is there any additional cost like buying the license etc ?


I think Iain charges a further £200 to refine the map for what he terms stage 2
To exploit the increased flow that the rear system allows together with the upgraded filters.
So you are looking at the exhaust, filters and remap as a package.
The claim for that is 575hp and that seems to be slightly conservative. Its not as big a jump as the basic remap. Carbon intakes add a further 10 hp and look the bol....s. Litchfields reckon you need to add injectors to go higher (600 + )


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

bluediamond said:


> I think Iain charges a further £200 to refine the map for what he terms stage 2
> To exploit the increased flow that the rear system allows together with the upgraded filters.
> So you are looking at the exhaust, filters and remap as a package.
> The claim for that is 575hp and that seems to be slightly conservative. Its not as big a jump as the basic remap. Carbon intakes add a further 10 hp and look the bol....s. Litchfields reckon you need to add injectors to go higher (600 + )


...which is why I said £700 in my post!!:chairshot


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

LOL, I give up with some Dave!!!

How are you finding it? 

Just back from the Petrol heads Nirvana Highland Fling and my God what roads!! You don't need to go to the Alps, or the passes in Switzerland, and the car never missed a beat - airborne a couple of times but never missed a beat!!

The car is now being detailed to get rid of a bit of road rash and a few other marks after hunting down and eating a Ferrari 360 spider, an Aston Martin DB9 and a Vantage V8 (the guy is now going to buy a GTR!!! SERIUOS) one of the new BMW M3 V8***8217;s and a whole host of others inc a Maserati GT, an old Porker 8964 Cab, Jag XKR etc


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## EA74GTR (Sep 13, 2010)

Can a full exhaust system including y pipe be fitted without remap ?
i.e Remap coming at a later stage


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## charles charlie (May 3, 2008)

Yep.


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

EA74GTR said:


> Can a full exhaust system including y pipe be fitted without remap ?
> i.e Remap coming at a later stage


..but you would run very rich and have lots of soot and nuburnt fuel on the backside of your car.

D


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## bluediamond (Sep 6, 2010)

*I had noticed that*



sumo69 said:


> ...which is why I said £700 in my post!!:chairshot


Still, nothing like a bit of repetition to make it clear :repost:

Steve,
Interesting little group of victims in Scotland but a recent encounter with a gen 2 997 Turbo S made me think that too much is never enough.
About evens with the Porker, but he had his wife in the car which leads me to think its still edging the contest , no doubt its bl...y quick

oh well, back to Iain for some injectors I suppose

or SVM to make absolutely certain :thumbsup:


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

sumo69 said:


> ..but you would run very rich and have lots of soot and nuburnt fuel on the backside of your car.
> 
> D


Can you explain why removing the cats causes you to run rich?

When tuning the cars before, anything that allowed the engine to breathe better increased volumetric efficiency and so caused the engine to run lean. You would know if a mod was helping if you had to add fuel after fitting it.

Now I understand that cats require a rich and very rich cycle occasionally to purge them as over tijmes of running lean the level of NOx and SOx inside them builds up and so they periodically have a rich cycle to raise their temperature and restore their capacity enabling the engine to run leaner on average than it would otherwise be able to without releasing excess NOX.

So, aside from these occasional purges I am not sure why there should be any signs of running rich.

What's changed since I understood it?


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## Litchfield (Feb 26, 2008)

Adam, when the cars have a performance exhaust fitted they tend to create a bit more power and move further up the load axis of the fuel map. The rows just outside of the area a standard car would operate under full power are made excessively rich by Nissan.

We charge £600 Inc VAT for our Stage 1 custom tune


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Hi Iain

Can you call me tomorrow re the "richness" situation and of course my Brake pads please


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Matt Black GT-R said:


> i got 576bhp with y-pipe and ECUTEK tune and forge intakes.
> 
> and 192mph run at VMAX.
> 
> ...


Yup, that's why I bought my car from him 2 years ago now and loving every moment of it !


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

LOL, thank you Matt Black GTR, thought she deserved a birthday present as she has been so good & just covered 1800 miles through Scotland on a Petrol head Nivarna Highland Fling tour ! ! LOL


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Matt Black GT-R said:


> i got 576bhp with y-pipe and ECUTEK tune and forge intakes.
> 
> and 192mph run at VMAX.
> 
> ...


Full exhaust or just Y pipe?

Miltek is worth 20 horses apparently!

D


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

LOL I can go along with that!!! MORE POWER!!! However, my stage 2 is not the biggest power but the torque is phenomenal




bluediamond said:


> Still, nothing like a bit of repetition to make it clear :repost:
> 
> Steve,
> Interesting little group of victims in Scotland but a recent encounter with a gen 2 997 Turbo S made me think that too much is never enough.
> ...


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

call now Dave


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## Zed Ed (Oct 24, 2007)

sumo69 said:


> Full exhaust or just Y pipe?
> 
> Miltek is worth 20 horses apparently!
> 
> D


I see your status comment

That is the right choice for aftermarket, I think

Got to thinking about it again myself........................................


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## vxrcymru (Sep 29, 2009)

Matt Black GT-R said:


> i got 576bhp with y-pipe and ECUTEK tune and forge intakes.
> 
> and 192mph run at VMAX.
> 
> ...


Did that include the Milltek cat back or just the Y pipe?


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## Aerodramatics (Feb 10, 2008)

Rich-GT said:


> If I could be sure of dB of the Miltek exhaust I will upgrade mine. My standard exhaust stated at 85dB is now reading 90dB plus at Goowood.
> 
> Is this a claimed figure or one that you have had measured at Goodwood or any other track. Is this a full Miltek system?
> 
> ...


I'm getting a full cat-back Miltek next weekend. I'll get a sound meter on it and post the results up to the in neutral rev limit!


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

Aerodramatics said:


> I'm getting a full cat-back Miltek next weekend. I'll get a sound meter on it and post the results up to the in neutral rev limit!


I have had the exact same modififactions as Matt Black GTR done by Iain on my MY11 GTR and can confirm 93db static at 4500rpm and 94db on track. Therefore the full Milltek with Y pipe and the Ecutec modification will permit your GTR to pass all noise tests at circuits (including Bedford and Castle Combe)


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## Rich-GT (Apr 2, 2008)

Thanks for that sounds promising. Goodwood requires 5200, so that means you have to put it to the 5000 rev limit, not sure how much difference that will make?


Rich


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## thistle (Oct 27, 2007)

What if your rev limiter is well under 75% of red line RPM, does it give any problems with static noise tests?


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## Aerodramatics (Feb 10, 2008)

I'll let you know. For the Miltek system there's a lot of choice:

Miltek R35 options

I'd be interested to know what the differences between the secondary cat-back ec-approved, resonated and non-resonated options are including dbs at 1m for trackdays.

Might give Miltek a bell on Monday to get an answer Dunno what options Litchfield's stock, I'd heard only the non-resonated.

Presumably the EC-approved one sticks to the standard 88db of the OEM zorst?


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## Papa Smurf (Sep 25, 2008)

Rich-GT said:


> Thanks for that sounds promising. Goodwood requires 5200, so that means you have to put it to the 5000 rev limit, not sure how much difference that will make?
> 
> 
> Rich


Still under the limit


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## sumo69 (Mar 31, 2008)

Litchfield stock both - though definitively quieter than running Y pipe and 100% sure below 92db.

No resonance in cabin at any revs is the benefit and 20+ ponies!!

D


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## Aerodramatics (Feb 10, 2008)

sumo69 said:


> Litchfield stock both - though definitively quieter than running Y pipe and 100% sure below 92db.
> 
> No resonance in cabin at any revs is the benefit and 20+ ponies!!
> 
> D


Did you get the EC/EG-approved one then David or summat else?

Yeah, think I spotted posts of Miltek non-resonated y-pipe motas being turned away from Bedford Autodrome track days. I think the West circuit is fun, would hate to miss that.

Bedford are strict, 101db whereas Anglesea and Oulton park are about 105db static, iirc. Evening events seem to go as low as 95db and up to 98db, though I've only ever been to one evening event and that was a freebie!

Would hate to fit a system that needed a set of restrictors.


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