# Water Methanol injection



## Mine's R32 GTR (Dec 13, 2007)

Has anyone run water/methanol injection on their gtr.
i want to get it on my R32 GTR my friend has it on his chevy cobalt ss 
(2.0 supercharged) its supposed to cool intake charge and raise the octane
turns 91 octane to 100+ some say 120 but i think thats overkill.
You can also mix in RC gas that Nitro Stuff with youre fuel so when your fuel mixes with the air and methanol it makes nitro methane giving you a bigger safer power adder than nitrous my friend says its comparable to a 70 hp shot of NOS when he adds the RC Nitro gas(im not sure the ratio i think 1 litre of rc gas for 20 litres) the water/methanol alone gives turbo applications up to a 60-70 hp boost with the RC Nitro gas its closer to 100 hp.


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## rasonline (Mar 24, 2005)

I have bought a kit to install on my Subaru GC8. Am having the install done first week in Jan. From what i've researched, it does decrease the intake temps but a lot depends on the misture that you are using. You get various brands that supply a mix to inject. it cools down the intake manifold and you can literally feel this on the manifold, but the change in RON depends on the mixture. I am using Boost Juice, with a kit called Boost Cooler.


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

Gary Passingham at GtaRt has used it on several big power motors but reckons it would also benefit for example an almost stock GTT with boost controller.


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

you will only see power gains if the ECU advances ignition timing. In other words, you need an aftermarket ECU and you need to remap the car for the fuel you are using.

My personal preference is toluene. It can be run at 100% (no gasoline) and is 120 octane. There are several issues with it however, not the least of which is that toluene likes to be hot, about 60-70 degrees celsius. When it's cold it won't fire.


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

It lowers the temp of the charge and reduces knock - just what you want if you have mildly increased boost... and made the necessary timing adjustments...


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

nitromethane does not increase power by itself. RC car fuel contains a smallish percent of nitromethane, so you're not making it, you're just adding it.

nitro power comes from the fact that it mixes in a 1.7:1 ratio, versus 14.7:1 for gasoline, meaning you can dump a LOT more fuel into an engine, and more fuel = more power. Don't bother going down that road though, unless you can afford to put in a $20,000 fuel system and pay $3000 per tank of fuel.

Anyways, to reiterate, no fuel additive or change in fueling will create more power unless ignition timing and injector fueling is altered to match.


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## blue34 (Jul 28, 2005)

...but lowering the charge temp (an effect of water /methanol injection) will increase power and there is the added benefit of reduced knock


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Mine's R32 GTR said:


> Has anyone run water/methanol injection on their gtr.
> i want to get it on my R32 GTR my friend has it on his chevy cobalt ss
> (2.0 supercharged) its supposed to cool intake charge and raise the octane
> turns 91 octane to 100+ some say 120 but i think thats overkill.
> You can also mix in RC gas that Nitro Stuff with youre fuel so when your fuel mixes with the air and methanol it makes nitro methane giving you a bigger safer power adder than nitrous my friend says its comparable to a 70 hp shot of NOS when he adds the RC Nitro gas(im not sure the ratio i think 1 litre of rc gas for 20 litres) the water/methanol alone gives turbo applications up to a 60-70 hp boost with the RC Nitro gas its closer to 100 hp.



bigger hit than nitrous?, is he serious? 

i use methanol and H20 injected on boost and it does not give any power increase at all unless you advance the timing

it does raise the octane so it does not detonate when using asda fuel with my 100 octane jap chip


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## Newera (Mar 22, 2005)

I fitted a kit made by Paul Port (Better known in MR2 circles, but a bit of a genuis ) about 5 years ago to the RX-7. Really more as a protective measure, than one to then attempt to increase boost with. The RX-7 (esp. on std turbos in cold ambient temps) tends to boost spike when running increased boost. If an RX-7 ever runs lean, it can get pre-ignition which is like :sadwavey: :sadwavey: to a rotary...

I run it directly off the windscreen washer tank, which holds a mixture of 40% methanol in window wash. Hasn't blown up ever - and has received plenty of regular abuse in over 50,000 km. 

Definitely useful in a turbo. Anyone tried it on an N/A, or is that a silly question?


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## kismetcapitan (Nov 25, 2005)

T.F.S. said:


> bigger hit than nitrous?, is he serious?


whoever told him that is on crack. :blahblah: nitromethane actually yields LESS energy per cc than gasoline, but since you can practically fill half the cylinder with liquid fuel, your net BTU per combustion cycle is higher. More power. But nothing "hits" like nitrous. Except for maybe a 2000bhp turbocharged car :thumbsup:


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## Mine's R32 GTR (Dec 13, 2007)

the highest octane i can get from a gas station is 93 i want to use injection to make my mine's 100 octane tune work better I know about the timing adavance my friend with the colbalt has his timing done


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

methanol is perfect then, the same reason i use it

100 octane jap performance chip, 21 degrees ignition, 1.3 bar on ceramins, 93 octane fuel, injecting dehydrated ethanol with 30% purified H20

no det


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*Water injection*

I use this to grate effect on the RB engine, I have a kit on my car now for 4 years, 
I have developed it from a twin pump direct port injection type now to a single 10 Bar direct port injection pulsed to injector duty cycle, it gave me 80 WHP it is reliable and works just fine, I belive it would benifit every Skyline motor, but thats my veiw,
I fitted a kit to a R1 and increased power from 470 hp to 615 hp using 95 unleaded and water methanol,
I have also blended nitromethane as well and it can hit as hard as nos, It can also beat cars equiped with nos on the strip as my car has done in the past.

So go for it MINES GTR 32 you wont regret it

Gary


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## kgleeson (Sep 16, 2003)

*Water / Methanol injection*

Hi Gary

Do you sell the single pump kit? Is there a way of controlling the injection without an aftermarket ECU?

KEv


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## gary (Aug 19, 2001)

*KIT*

Hi Kev,
Yes I do sell a single pump kit,
I also do have a way of controlling the system without the need for a aftermarket ecu,I also have a way of controling the injection rate as well results are better with a mappable ecu though and more safety margins can be built in if you wanted an on the edge kit which is fun

If you are interested give me a call at the shop after christmas,I need to sort out a price for this kit as I dont really push it , I can make it affordable though when installed it is so cheap to run, saves the price of race fuel on track days etc and hits much harder

Have a nice one

regards

Gary


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

hitting harder than nitrous is utter bullshit IMO


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## tokes (Jul 16, 2006)

Maybe in the context he said, but I know people who have gained 150+ WHP from the boost increase they can pull off on pump gas when spraying methanol.


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## skyrocker (Feb 14, 2005)

Some pics of my enginebay and trunk with Gary's water injection system fitted. 



















Looks COOOL to me :smokin:


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## kgleeson (Sep 16, 2003)

*Water / Methanol injection*

Hi Gary

Will give you a bell in the New Year

Have a good un.

Kev


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## mifn21 (Mar 19, 2007)

How much would a decent setup cost, including fitting? The R32 I'm getting has a Jap chip in and it sounds like this would cost similar to a full remap, with better results!


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

fitting takes around 1 hour and is easy
RB26 Rebuild Guide (beginners) - Skyline Owners Forum
some pics and direction here (maybe page 2 or 3)


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## GTRSTILL (Jul 27, 2006)

Newera said:


> I fitted a kit made by Paul Port (Better known in MR2 circles, but a bit of a genuis ) about 5 years ago to the RX-7. Really more as a protective measure, than one to then attempt to increase boost with. The RX-7 (esp. on std turbos in cold ambient temps) tends to boost spike when running increased boost. If an RX-7 ever runs lean, it can get pre-ignition which is like :sadwavey: :sadwavey: to a rotary...
> 
> I run it directly off the windscreen washer tank, which holds a mixture of 40% methanol in window wash. Hasn't blown up ever - and has received plenty of regular abuse in over 50,000 km.
> 
> Definitely useful in a turbo. Anyone tried it on an N/A, or is that a silly question?



Does it smell all soapy from the exhaust when its running.... also, do bubbles come out of the tailpipe?


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## mifn21 (Mar 19, 2007)

T.F.S. said:


> fitting takes around 1 hour and is easy
> RB26 Rebuild Guide (beginners) - Skyline Owners Forum
> some pics and direction here (maybe page 2 or 3)


Thanks mate it was more the actual adjustment/setup of the system I was concerned about ie how much to inject and when etc


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## bernmc (Dec 26, 2006)

As I understand water injection, it's purpose is to cool the fuel/air charge. There is an optimum fuel:air ratio for the most efficient burn - and therefore maximum power. Unfortunately, this ratio burns very hot, melts pistons etc. In order to cool the charge in the cylinder, most jap cars overfuel - the excess fuel in the cylinder isn't there to burn, it's there to absorb heat. This is why tuners make sure that the mixture gets richer and richer as you progress up the power curve. If you look at my my dyno sheet below, you'll see AFR's starting at around the 15 mark, and getting progressively richer as revs increase.

Fuel is not a very efficient heatsink though - water can absorb much more energy per ml. A rich mixture makes nice big flames out of your exhaust  but it's wasted energy and cash!

So if you inject a small amount of atomised water into the intake, you can run the motor leaner - the water is there to absorb the extra heat energy - and so get a more efficient burn and consequently more power. The car can be tuned to run much closer to that optimum AFR.

Of course, if you run out of water... :squintdan 

Aquamist do a number of systems, from basic boost/oressure triggered to full 3D-map-able.


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## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

Mine's R32 GTR said:


> the highest octane i can get from a gas station is 93 i want to use injection to make my mine's 100 octane tune work better I know about the timing adavance my friend with the colbalt has his timing done


If Canada uses the same system as the US then '93 octane' is an average of RON and MON, whereas (I think) Japan is the same as the UK, i.e. they quote the RON value only - and therefore end up with a higher figure.


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## mifn21 (Mar 19, 2007)

I want flames though, its useful for tailgaters :chuckle:
The Jap chip will be for 100 or 102 octane and a fair bit has been spent on the car so I'm sure the map is a very good one, just not suitable for shitty UK fuel - rather than spend money on another map I thought why not get something that will benefit the car even more by reducing intake temps and eliminating the risk of detonation  
The Snow kit is £250-300 which is less than a full map, assuming its not too tricky to fit and set up


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## tokes (Jul 16, 2006)

bernmc said:


> As I understand water injection, it's purpose is to cool the fuel/air charge. There is an optimum fuel:air ratio for the most efficient burn - and therefore maximum power. Unfortunately, this ratio burns very hot, melts pistons etc. In order to cool the charge in the cylinder, most jap cars overfuel - the excess fuel in the cylinder isn't there to burn, it's there to absorb heat. This is why tuners make sure that the mixture gets richer and richer as you progress up the power curve. If you look at my my dyno sheet below, you'll see AFR's starting at around the 15 mark, and getting progressively richer as revs increase.


The reason a car injecting water and METHANOL should be so rich is because methanol has a very low stoicheometric air/fuel ratio. You need to inject a lot of it to get the gains you want to see.



bernmc said:


> Fuel is not a very efficient heatsink though - water can absorb much more energy per ml. A rich mixture makes nice big flames out of your exhaust  but it's wasted energy and cash!


Fuel is actually a pretty efficient heat sink, methanol's specific heat capacity is about 60% that of Water. You gain much more anti-knock resistance from the added octane and fueling of the methanol rather than just from the decreased intake temps from the water.



bernmc said:


> So if you inject a small amount of atomised water into the intake, you can run the motor leaner - the water is there to absorb the extra heat energy - and so get a more efficient burn and consequently more power. The car can be tuned to run much closer to that optimum AFR.
> 
> Of course, if you run out of water... :squintdan
> 
> Aquamist do a number of systems, from basic boost/oressure triggered to full 3D-map-able.


The best bet for making power is to run no water at all. Spray 100% methanol, and keep adding meth untill the car stops knocking. Meth is a fuel, a very high octane fuel that is VERY hard to preignite. I've seen 2.0L 4-cylinder cars making 700+ AWHP on regular 91 octane because they're sprayin 100% meth and a lot of it.


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## Richard L (Oct 10, 2005)

gary said:


> I use this to grate effect on the RB engine, I have a kit on my car now for 4 years,
> I have developed it from a twin pump direct port injection type now to a single 10 Bar direct port injection pulsed to injector duty cycle, it gave me 80 WHP it is reliable and works just fine, I belive it would benifit every Skyline motor, but thats my veiw,
> I fitted a kit to a R1 and increased power from 470 hp to 615 hp using 95 unleaded and water methanol,
> I have also blended nitromethane as well and it can hit as hard as nos, It can also beat cars equiped with nos on the strip as my car has done in the past.
> ...


Gary, congratulation on your 9.6s 1/4 last week at the Pod. NO nitrous!!! :thumbsup:


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

tokes said:


> Fuel is actually a pretty efficient heat sink, methanol's specific heat capacity is about 60% that of Water. You gain much more anti-knock resistance from the added octane and fueling of the methanol rather than just from the decreased intake temps from the water.


Just for the record! It's the Methanol that is cooling the intake air by changing states from liquid droplets to a gas. It changes states at a much lower temperature than water. The water’s role is played out in the combustion chamber where it changes the flame front speed (slows it) during it’s phase change to a super heated gas during combustion thus *simulating* a higher octane fuel. This H2O gas is now 1600 time greater in volume than it was in the droplet phase and drives the turbo more, thus *simulating* an engine of a greater displacement. It becomes a balancing act of how much water to methanol to inject verses how much of this water/Methanol cocktail to inject and when to start injecting it. This ratio can only be empirically found on a dyno. If you have big turbos and they are lagging then it would take some experimentation to find the right combinations. For which I'm looking for someone who has gone done this road before and can save me lots of time experimenting on ratios and flow rates. Idon't want to hear about the 50/50 mix club, I am lookng for the ones who use 10-20-30% water and the rest Methanol for real horse ower increases and not just correcting for the detination problems of non race gas.


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## tokes (Jul 16, 2006)

You'll make the most power on pump gas spraying 100% methanol, it's been proven time and time again.


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

Yes I agree, 100% Methanol is the ticket for making the most power. 95 octane Premium gas here in Canada has about 39.5MJ/Litre while Methanol has about 17 MJ/L and an octane of 113. Now to displace 50 % of my fuel with Meth. I have to spray about 2.3 time more Meth. than I am spraying gas and thats not had to figure out or get off a dyno (BSFC). Now comes the complicted part. I want to put dash 10's on my RB26. These will be laggy, but if I add some water, a small amount to the methanol and spray LOTS of the mixture. I will in effect have lots of water too (by volume). It will change states and grow by 1600 times giving more gas discharge volume to the turbo and simulate a larger displacement engine like an RB30. RB30's don't have any problem spooling up the dash 10's from what I have seen on the net. Now to save me experimentation time, I was wondering if any one else out there did this already and how much did they spray (or orifice size) and what was the mix ratio. Toluene is another route and has 35.4 MJ/L with an octane of 114. But it's been very hard to find a high pressure pump that can take a diet of 100% toluene. and Toluene has a different vapour pressure as compared to Methanol.


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

This principle can also be used for anyone who has larger than stock turbos and wants to get them to spool up faster and harder then they do now. Not to mention make more Horse Power at the same time. With or without MAF's. It's all about makeing more Horse Power under the entire curve.


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## curtisgoodman (Jul 12, 2008)

Im curious about this as well. I'm looking to put water meth injection onto my GTR with garret -5's. I would like them to hit earlier as well as make a bit more power up top. Any mixtures out there tried and tested?

Thanks

Curt


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## G40tee (Feb 25, 2008)

how has anyone on here not mentioned the cost of running 100% methanol or toluene.

its not exactly cheap! And dont forget you need alot of methanol if running 100% and will need a big old tank if you want to do it alot of the time!

was going to put a kit on my polo g40 but never got round to fitting it in the end. Would like to know what it is like and how effective, but comparable costs would be good to know too!

Eg are the advantages cheaper than running v power everyday and running a bit rich and race gas if you want the extra hp
OR
running v power normall then methanol and v power when you want to go some
OR 
running normal petrol with methanol injected pretty much all of the time.




I know people who run co2 sprays to cool the intake charge but obviously doesnt have the heat soak effect as there is nothing entering the cylinders different apart from colder denser air.

For the people who have it:

When do you run it? How expensive it is to run?


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## curtisgoodman (Jul 12, 2008)

Well if i had it setup and ran 100% meth i can get 55gal drum of the stuff for $225CAD... not sure how long that would last but its a price...


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## gtrfan34 (Jun 4, 2008)

You can mix your own, it is a 50:50 mix, or you can buy washer fluid from (if you are in the states) walmart! So that is pretty cheap, and the ratio is nearly correct.

Unless you are on the track, a 1 gallon tank is going to last more than a full tank of petrol. When on boost, the correct fuel/wmi ratio is about 10%.. sometimes less. And of course it shouldn't start spraying until 5psi. So next time you drive the car, take a look at how many seconds per minute you're over 5psi? Not too often, right? 
(Obviously on a track you're spraying maybe 50% or more of the time, so you'll go through that 1 gallon probably faster than you empty your tank).

Next consider if you are using it as a way to have the equivalent of C16 (race fuel) in your tank, that 116 octane race fuel is about, what, 4x to 8x more expensive than petrol? so for the added cost of a gallon of washer fluid, you have filled up with C16!

One of the ways to tune forced induction motors on snow or aquamist is to tune for C16 (using C16), then use that map for your pump+injection setup. It isn't exactly right but it is close! both in performance and in timing and in added boost headroom. If you do this, though, you must have an ECU that can retard timing and lower boost (or switch maps) when it detects the onset of knock due to your injection system running out or failing, or you use the injection kit fail-safe signal to dump boost..

Disclaimer: this info is gleaned from what I've read on numerous meth injection forums where customers ask questions and get answers or report their actual experiences. Not from personal experience.

By the way, I mayaswell dump in a few warnings I've picked up as well: be careful your kit will not either gravity feed into the intake, or allow a vacuum to pull water into the inlet. a check solenoid driven by the injection ecu as close to the nozzle as possible performs this function.
A kit that injects based on mass air flow is probably the best, but one that injects based on boost pressure should be almost as good for rb26 because when there is no boost, there is almost certainly no need for injection, above 0psi, boost roughly equates to mass air flow..
I think an optimal tune for a car with injection has also to ensure that you can't ping at low RPM and high engine loads, though, as there is no boost (so no injection)! EG, full throttle in 4th at 1500rpm up a hill.. boost will not build.. the tune should not knock.

If you use the HKS f-con with knock amp, and especially have two maps with the lower map triggered by out-of-juice, then I think things are gonna be pretty safe: belts and braces. I'm really fascinated by the whole subject, and by the end of next month hope to have some real world results with this setup: snow performance, HKS f-con and HKS AFK. It just seems so much more clever than simply chucking in tons of fuel (and ejecting it out your tail pipe) to fight detonation.


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## boostinvert (Aug 16, 2007)

i run a 100% meth. and have nothing but great things to say about it. with out changing my race gas map. just running 93 with the meth on the race gas map i gained about 60-70 whp on my GTR. i think it's a great thing but you have to have some one that knows how to tune for it. theres a company here in the USA that makes kits that will run 100% meth. i can't remember the name. but if you interested pm me and i'll look when i get into work tomorrow..


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## gtrfan34 (Jun 4, 2008)

"run a 100% meth. and have nothing but great things to say about it. with out changing my race gas map. just running 93 with the meth on the race gas map i gained about 60-70 whp on my GTR."

Hey I just want to be totally clear on your reply..! 

you have a race gas map, and you run it on 93 + meth. So you gained 60whp from that, over what? over running the same map on pump gas alone?

if your map is a race gas map, it doesn't ping itself to death on 93 alone? what ECU are you using, does it retard ignition when the meth runs out? did you add boost to get 60whp more?


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## boostinvert (Aug 16, 2007)

r34rtune said:


> "run a 100% meth. and have nothing but great things to say about it. with out changing my race gas map. just running 93 with the meth on the race gas map i gained about 60-70 whp on my GTR."
> 
> Hey I just want to be totally clear on your reply..!
> 
> ...


i run a fcon pro. 

heres what i did when i first installed the meth kit. i had a race gas map for 110 leaded. i never hooked into the computer. i installed the meth kit and turned the pressure up with 93octane in the tank. ran it on my dyno. and backed the meth pump down to where i wanted my a/f at. i gained about 68whp. didn't touch the boost or the tune. 

then a few days later i tuned the car for the meth and made about another 40-50 whp with running 1-2psi less b/c i was able to jack the timing. 

no it doesn't retard the timing i don't have my knock amp installed right now. but i don't run out of meth. it's always full and i'm always watching a/f gauge.


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## gtrfan34 (Jun 4, 2008)

boostinvert said:


> i run a fcon pro.
> 
> heres what i did when i first installed the meth kit. i had a race gas map for 110 leaded. .


that makes perfect sense, thanks. It is basically what I am going to ask my tuner to do as well. What boost threshold do you start spraying at ? where did you put the nozzle .. and if you know the nozzle flow rate ...


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## boostinvert (Aug 16, 2007)

r34rtune said:


> that makes perfect sense, thanks. It is basically what I am going to ask my tuner to do as well. What boost threshold do you start spraying at ? where did you put the nozzle .. and if you know the nozzle flow rate ...


i have the nozzle right before the manifold in the pipe going up to it. i don't know the flow rate. it's one i had laying around. and i have it set up on a hob switch set at 17psi to turn on....

it's not the safest setup but it works for now. i'll be having a better one made for me. but i haven't done it yet.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

> You can also mix in RC gas that Nitro Stuff with youre fuel so when your fuel mixes with the air and methanol it makes nitro methane giving you a bigger safer power adder than nitrous my friend says its comparable to a 70 hp shot of NOS when he adds the RC Nitro gas(im not sure the ratio i think 1 litre of rc gas for 20 litres) the water/methanol alone gives turbo applications up to a 60-70 hp boost with the RC Nitro gas its closer to 100 hp.



Just to set the record straight , that is rubbish.
Methanol is methanol and nitro is nitro.
Model 2 stroke engines run basically 5 to 80% nitro and probably the most common glow plug 2 stroke fuel would be something like 5% nitro and 75% methanol and 20% oil.
Without getting to complicated, the nitro is used to smooth out the way the methanol is burnt,making the engine easier to set and smoothing running.
High nitro fuels are usually run in higher capacity engines which dont rev over 25k.
Or engines specifically altered to run high nitro, Im pretty sure Eisner (sp) ran the first offiical over 200mph on 5%.

Basically taking away your confusion over what Nitromethane is, I would think any noticable power difference would be from the addition of methanol into the fuel tank.
TBH sounds like a load of bollocks.
Tolly would be a much more sensible fuel tank additive.
Unless you are injecting it into the engine.
Why not just get water going right .....


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

boostinvert said:


> it's one i had laying around. and i have it set up on a hob switch set at 17psi to turn on....
> 
> it's not the safest setup but it works for now. i'll be having a better one made for me. but i haven't done it yet.


I haven't built my system yet but I had a question, Isn't 17 psi a little late to start injecting ? Don't you knock before that on pump gas ? 

Does anyone have a Snow system and can it run straight Meth ?


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## boostinvert (Aug 16, 2007)

Monster GT-R said:


> I haven't built my system yet but I had a question, Isn't 17 psi a little late to start injecting ? Don't you knock before that on pump gas ?
> 
> Does anyone have a Snow system and can it run straight Meth ?


no b/c i have the Fcon pro. my tune changes at 22psi. so start injecting at 17 then at 22 my tune switchs over to a MUCH more agresive tune. so it's good...

and no the snow kit will not run 100%meth. it will for a while, but the seals will get eaten up...


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## boostinvert (Aug 16, 2007)

boostinvert said:


> no b/c i have the Fcon pro. my tune changes at 22psi. so start injecting at 17 then at 22 my tune switchs over to a MUCH more agresive tune. so it's good...
> 
> and no the snow kit will not run 100%meth. it will for a while, but the seals will get eaten up...


check out alky control... http://alkycontrol.com/

their kits are safe to run 100%.


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## gtrfan34 (Jun 4, 2008)

gary said:


> I fitted a kit to a R1 and increased power from 470 hp to 615 hp using 95 unleaded and water methanol,
> Gary


Hi Gary,
well since that is my car I'm obviously interested.. What ECU did you use when you set this car up with the kit?

and for the purposes of the thread:

I've looked over the snow stage 2 kit and bench tested the nozzle and pump. The 375ml / minute nozzle pushes out just under 500ml / minute when the "150psi" pump is running @ 12v. You can bring that back on the pump by turning an allen bolt which decreases the max psi cut-out.

The thing I don't much like is the choice in the stage 2 kit of ramp by boost or ramp by maf. Neither is ideal. On full boost obviously you don't want flat injection percentage as revs rise.

I like the idea of the stage 3 controller which has a 2d map and can ramp by reading the injector duty cycle! this seems to me to be the neatest and most accurate. You can combine this with a boost map (hence the 2d) so it only injects when on boost, and cycles the pump in proportion to injector cycle, so the mix of "juice" to gas stays roughly the same.


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## dvldoc (Jul 11, 2009)

2D mapping is nice but is it's really working like you think?? Here's a few questions to ask yourself, How many seconds does it take you to reach full boost? 1 to 2 seconds max. These pumps can only respond so fast, the difference between using a combo like injector duty cycle and boost is the adjustment is almost in-measurable. Your talking 1/100's of a cc per second per cylinder. 

Even if your rev's rise at full boost the octane level does not chance when the alcohol injection is on, Your already significantly lowering your EGT's and IAT's so your beyond the efficiency the engine would have without it. If you did back to back dyno pulls, 1/4 testing using both methods your results would be so close or the same you would not be able to distinguish the two, that's just a fact. These pumps cannot adjust that quickly with pressure.

Many people have a misconception of how the pressure switch on the shruflo pumps works, That allen head will only give you a rise or fall of around 20psi max up and down. These pumps simply cannot respond fast enough to adjust pressure with complected curves with wide varying changes in PWM to keep up with the MAP. The inertia of the pump does not allow it.

Now here's the kicker with the Snow controller and 2D injection (IT CAN'T WORK AS ADVERTISED) why because they still use the Shurflo 150psi demand pumps which have a pressure switch that is constantly switching on and off. Now what does that cause, well the pump pulses.

You can hear and see it clearly here. Yes this is a snow system.
YouTube - 300zx water injection prototype

Here's aquamist
YouTube - Water Injection Test 2

It's the reason why most companies have stepped up to 250psi pump with a internal bypass that does not pulse, and are still way below snows price.

Prime example
DVC-30 Water-Methanol injection Kit DevilsOwn Injection

Vehicles have been running boost based PWM of the pump with total success for 20 plus years, from 150hp to 1000hp. You can make water injection overly complicated and the results will be almost if not the same a if you ran it based on boost. Every seen a multiple 2D map comparison vs a boost based on the dyno? There is a reason why.

That's just my 2cents worth.


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## firefighter81 (Apr 9, 2004)

I do realize this is a pretty old thread, but instead of making a new thread for a simple question, I will bump this one.

I've used water injection before, we always installed the sprayer in the throttle body elbow. Since the GT-R has individual throttle bodies, where do you install the sprayer? Or are 6 individual sprayers required?

Can anyone recommend an off the shelf kit that will work well with the RB26?

Thanks!


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

i used single point injection on the elbow and it worked fine for me

aquamist..


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## firefighter81 (Apr 9, 2004)

The elbow at the beginning of the intake manifold where the intercooler pipe connects?

Does the water/meth get distributed evenly? Or does the furthest throttle body not get as much?


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Yes thats it

i saw the pistons after a year or so and although they were covered in bits of ceramic from my turbo lol there seemed to be no detonation damage...and i had advanced the ignition and run 95 ron fuel on over 1 bar....


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## firefighter81 (Apr 9, 2004)

Great info! Thanks a lot for responding so quickly, I wasn't expecting that 

Can you tell me where exactly you had it installed? Or better yet, got a picture? 

Thanks again!


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

yea, about 3/4 way down the page

RB26 Rebuild Guide (beginners) - Page 2 - Skyline Owners Forum


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## firefighter81 (Apr 9, 2004)

Ah! Thank you very much! I looked over that thread a few minutes ago, but with so many pictures I completely missed that one. Thank you very much!


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

yea i wrote that thread a while back, need rewriting in a few areas though..


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Aquamist kit, same set up as Skyrocket, comes in at 7000RPM with boost at over 22psi on SUL road fuel and over 30psi with race fuel. Makes over 800ATW @ 8300 on road and over 900ATW @ 8300 on race. Max revs is 9500. Timing adjusted for WI. More importantly it added 100LbFt torque and it all came in quicker.

Everybodies fear is reliability of the WI system, but you can put safeties in place with aftermarket ECU, like if tank empties or system goes offline drop to safe (low) boost.

Without doubt working WI is a good, relatively low cost bolt on. You can run water, water/meth, or 100% meth provided you have 'mapped' appropriately. Around £50 will buy you a decent size drum of meth, and it is way, way cheaper than race fuel. So fit a decent size tank in boot (see skyrocket picture again) and it will last you a while on the road and 'enough' for track days.

DaveG


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

water in your cylinders ??? errr Nope


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## dvldoc (Jul 11, 2009)

Steve said:


> water in your cylinders ??? errr Nope


You do know for every gallon of fuel burnt almost a gallon of water is made in the internal combustion process. There is always water vapor/steam present when your vehicle is burning fuel.

Also water injection is a fine mist it is steam vapor in the combustion chambers. Having a steamed cleaned engine free of all carbon is far better than carbon coated piston tops and valves. Those cause detonation by increasing EGT's. I'm still surprised people don't know this about the burning of a air fuel mixture. 

Have you ever seen the inside of a engine that has been running water injection for a long period of time? They are almost 90% carbon free from the injection point to the piston tops. That's a fact. Not to mention it can save your engine from detonation which is the cause of most damage in high boost applications.


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

When I had my Dash 10's in, I used 50/50 Meth and distilled water but after I swapped out the 10's for dash 5's, I ended up using 25 % water by volume. The Methanol I was getting already had 5% water in it, so that made 30%. I loved this mix with MAF's on a daily driver. In the end, I tore out the meth injection I had cause I wasn't happy with it and I want to get a Devils Own system. I had 2 of the injectors mounted on the outlet of the intercooler and when I get the new system, I'm going to add a third at the elbow under the battery.


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## emu002 (May 15, 2008)

If water injection reduces intake temps does that mean you can run more power without the need of a bigger intercooler?


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

Yes, But,

Water will reduce inlet temps a little but the real temp reducer is the Meth. Water has a greater latent heat of evpoeation and will change from a liquid to a gas and reduce the temperature given enough time and elevated temperatures, BUT in the very short time and relative low temperature, while in the intake, the waters evaporation rate is low and can't really have it's full potential effect. The meth on the other hand has a much lower evpouration temp. so in the intake, it's the one that has the dominant effect. Water while in the combustion chamber slows the flame front like a higher octane fuel and this in effect is what gives you detination reduction/elimination. Water when it evapourates will grow 1600 time in volume and will help spool up your turbos not only sooner but due to the higher mass flow rate, the turbos can be pushed into thier highest possible rpm's. The water also absorbs energy from the combustion and gives a cooler EGT. One nice side effect is lower carbon build-up due to the cracking and non-sticking effect the steam has on carbon molecules in a high temperature high pressure environment. Methanol part of the equation adds Octane and if you can change your fuel program like I can you can reprogram it for less gasoline and shoot more Methanol /water mix in, giving a rich mixture to the fuel air ratio you want. all in all it's a win win situation for our cars and more horse power for us. you can also add more timing in most situations for more horse power, again.


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## ru' (Feb 18, 2007)

dvldoc said:


> You do know for every gallon of fuel burnt almost a gallon of water is made in the internal combustion process. ...


Really? How does that work then? (I'm not doubting, I'm just curious!)


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

Fuel is any atom that can be oxidized and is exothermic (gives off heat), namely Hydrogen, Carbon, Sulfur. Gasoline is made up of approx 300 different types of hydrocarbons with as little/much sulfur as the country you live in regulates. When you oxidize two Hydrogen atoms off one of these hydrocarbons with one oxygen atom from the air, you get water (H2O). These hydrocarbon molecules are carbon chains of various lengths with two hydrogen atoms for each carbon atom, therefore there are a lot of hydrogens which can form water as a by-product of the combustion process. 

The water vapour in the exaust is at such a elevated temperature it is said to be super heated. But on a cold day when your exhaust pipes are cold enough to reduce the exhaust gases to the due point the water will condense and you see steam coming out of your exhaust tail pipe. Once your exhaust pipes warm up to the point of not bringing the exhaust gas to the due point, you no longer see the steam out of your tail pipe but it is still there non the less. You don't see the water in the air you breath also because it is super heated, for it's given temperature and pressure.


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Monster GT-R said:


> Fuel is any atom that can be oxidized and is exothermic (gives off heat), namely Hydrogen, Carbon, Sulfur. Gasoline is made up of approx 300 different types of hydrocarbons with as little/much sulfur as the country you live in regulates. When you oxidize two Hydrogen atoms off one of these hydrocarbons with one oxygen atom from the air, you get water (H2O). These hydrocarbon molecules are carbon chains of various lengths with two hydrogen atoms for each carbon atom, therefore there are a lot of hydrogens which can form water as a by-product of the combustion process.
> 
> The water vapour in the exaust is at such a elevated temperature it is said to be super heated. But on a cold day when your exhaust pipes are cold enough to reduce the exhaust gases to the due point the water will condense and you see steam coming out of your exhaust tail pipe. Once your exhaust pipes warm up to the point of not bringing the exhaust gas to the due point, you no longer see the steam out of your tail pipe but it is still there non the less. You don't see the water in the air you breath also because it is super heated, for it's given temperature and pressure.



interesting post!


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

well continuing the discussion on WI, i have some data some may find interesting....



i sold the GTR a while back now and the next project has been a dirt cheap MR2 project

i have fitted a XS power intercooler/manifold/exhaust/garret GT3071 and upgraded the fuel side, ECU is a link G4 storm

we mapped to 1.2 bar on sunday..i didnt tell the mapper we were tuning on 95 octane fuel, he was aware i had a 90% methanol/ethanol mix being injected by a basic aquamist system...here are his findings


"quick update to this..

tuned the car yesterday to a heady 1,2bar on the stock 3SGTE motor (yes we all know the ringland problems) to the customers request. 

got thro some small problems. (fuel pickup!!)

to enable us to lay down a nice road tune..

suffice to say i was very impressed with the end result of the GT3071R on this motor.. the car was quick and punchy and pulled viciously hard towards the redline..

and the most suprising thing of the day.. after prolonged pulls on the Mway i was happy with the tune.. and was very suprised at the IGN advance we managed to use... since the customer had fitted a WI kit.. (with quite a large mix of Ethanol) 

so there is me tuning away.. and he drops the bomb shell... the car is running 95 ron!!!!

i couldnt believe my ears!!

here is a snippet of the timing map for those that are interested.. and below that is another stock MR2 engine on Vpower with no WI, amazing differences

















"

please note the last ignition map is a tuned map done by rogue


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

Ya gotta LOVE IT !

Water injection is good stuff. Methanol injection is Great. With the combination, it gives the best of both worlds. 

Nice numbers , :thumbsup:

Honest to god, this should be on every turbo car or engine out of the factory. It has such a lengthy list of posatives and one negative. You have to buy Methanol or a mix and keep the Methanol tank filled up. As an engineer I find this to be a very, very small compromise for the list of gains to be had. I've run 87 octane and 1.2 bar and still had nearly 500 HP with the set up I had. Why isn't EVERYONE running a WI kit ?


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## zimnismoboy34 (Apr 18, 2012)

*two negatives*

Sorry to spoil the rant but it has two negatives ....
Methanol is toxic and if you touch it or use it in a confined space it can cause issues later cancer etc....

Secondly IT DILUTES SUMP OIL!!!! yes that is right the water doesnt burn 100% and it ends up making oil per say or dilutiing the oil in your engine not such a nice thing on a car that has $$$$ inside ..

So think about if its worth it or not before you want to make your 10w-60 into 0w30 lol


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

water does not burn at all mate and if you think the water would remain susoended in oil that is over 100 degrees you cannot have really thought things out very well


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

A quick update on the MR2 mentioned in my previous post..

Intercooler has now been removed, it still runs 95 octane fuel and still runs a stock headgasket/pistons/engine with a GT3071R at 20psi..



T.F.S. said:


> Added another 0.5mm injector on the WI yesterday, temps now seem to be back to normal


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

zimnismoboy34 said:


> Sorry to spoil the rant but it has two negatives ....
> Methanol is toxic and if you touch it or use it in a confined space it can cause issues later cancer etc....
> 
> Secondly IT DILUTES SUMP OIL!!!! yes that is right the water doesnt burn 100% and it ends up making oil per say or dilutiing the oil in your engine not such a nice thing on a car that has $$$$ inside ..
> ...


Gasoline is toxic in confined spaces and with over 3oo different compounds in it some of them are just as nasty as methanol, just different. Yes do be careful with meth ! And for the water , if you don't spray to much water and make your mix more methanol than water you have a better conversion of the water into a super heated gas in the flame front thus slowing it down just like higher octane fuels. Third all fuel we use, are hydrocarbons and water is how would you say a hydroxol (i know not exactly right for the chem guys)so you can not make a hydrocarbon out of it. What you can get is condensation in you oil and it can combine with nitrogen or sulfur or carbon to form acids. But if you change your oil regularly and don't go long miles on it your fine. you get the same thing happening over the winter when the car sits. After this build up, my engine is worth $28,000 and i have no fears of damaging except the shit kicking I give it.


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

after so many years people have used this system which one you recommend? do you still recommend it?


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Personally I have been using WI for about 8 years, for the last year I have been using WM to an extreme level as my only method of chargecooling on a 3SGTE MR2










Around 1500cc per min being injected here.

All of the popular systems use the same pump and the only real difference is the controller, the best controllers are Coolingmist ones as they are the only ones that will alert you if there is even something slightly wrong with the system and on my system this is real important as the engine has a high chance of meltdown should a fault occur.
MR2 Owners Club Message Board

After doing so much work with them I eventually became a dealer for them in the UK and have not had a single product returned.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2001)

Hmmmm, cylinders, pistons, piston rings, fuel, air, and WATER ?? Ugh ? NO, not for me


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Steve said:


> Hmmmm, cylinders, pistons, piston rings, fuel, air, and WATER ?? Ugh ? NO, not for me


Water is a very important part for me but only 5-10% of what I use is water, the rest is methanol...

It keeps the engine clean.
spools the turbo up faster when injected pre turbo.
lowers inlet temps.
cools the piston and cylinder wall
reduces knock

The RAF didn't use it in WW2 for nothing...


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

so what do you recommend for the rb26 setup, which model and how can it be combined with the ecu for safety if i want to use 50% 50% w/m


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

I would use 1000cc per min of MW 75% mix on the progressive autolearn system and map with it, wire a solenoid up to the wastegate so the engine would be limited to wastegate pressure if the unit detects a fault.

All the benefits of running water injection along with the benefits of race fuel octane from the methanol when on boost.

If running the stock ECU just 500cc of 50/50 would be good, I ran my own GTR just like this!


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

i have a link g4 ecu, the reasson i am asking is that i dont want to have the stress when ever is going to be empty that i will brake the engine and if i use use 1000cc per min of MW 75% mix how long the small tank will be lasting ?


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

Well like I say the controller will limit boost when there is a fault (fault can be anything that prevents flow from a blocked jet to a run dry situation)..you can also add a float sensor which will do the same so when you run low it cuts boost.

I use twin 4 litre tanks which is enough for 8 mins+ of full throttle time on 1000cc jetting with the progressive controller (and for road use I deplete the meth tanks at about the same rate as the fuel tank so they get filled at the same time) but on a GTR you may decide to use the windscreen waster tank as your supply and IIRC that holds quite a bit more?


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

8 minuets is not worth to install it, i thought it could be capable for a lot more, if i put a system that goes for 8 minuets i would make the car just for race use and dont want to have these limitations except if make 2 programs and activate it with the one of them.


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

You dont have to install the same tanks as myself..you can go larger obviously, my car is for road use and 8+ mins of full boost time is more than enough for me as it lasts a full tankful...most people inject less than 500cc per min of meth mix so the same tanks would last 16mins

For race/idiotic road use as mentioned you could use the windscreen washer tank or a combination of both for a much longer duration.


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

I use the Devils Own 2 stage water meth system because it is progressive as boost increases, the rate of increase in spray is adjustable as well as the cut in point plus it has safety warning systems built in . I recommend this one because not all the pumps internals are the same. I looked into it quite extensively and found out that only a couple companies make the internals for 100% methanol. If you mix your meth like me 70 / 30 by weight then you need to have the pump internals made for 100% meth or it won't last. I am spraying 13 US gallons per hour (820 cc/min) on my RB26 downstream from the intercooler. The engine and Turbo's spool up pretty quick with 2 dash 5's and I am very happy with this system. i use the 2 gallon tank in the trunk with a float switch for low level warning and it lasts me a week.


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## T.F.S. (Feb 5, 2004)

I used to have that controller until it failed..I had a replacement and then had another failure, their forum has loads of people complaining about failures and they do delete the threads and ban people if you complain.
https://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/progressive-controllers-3568.html
https://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/problem-controller-3429.html
https://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/hydrolock-lucky-3586.html
https://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/new-install-controller-issues-3593.html
https://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/technical-questions/new-controllers-3630.html

Being covered in methanol whilst working under the car or having it come on when the car is parked and hydrolocking your engine is not funny and they will not want anything to do with you if that does happen.

The kits themselves are very good though and the UK aftercare/dealer is also very good.

They can be rigged up to a float switch but they do not have any safeguards, only AEM and Coolingmist have safeguards.
http://www.coolingmist.com/pagedisplay.aspx?pid=CMGSBoostVAC
This one will know if you have a blocked nozzle or a kinked line etc etc and will alert you!

The pumps are all the same and come from the same company (shurflo), some company's use a different pressure.


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

I guess I got a good one then. I also installed the solinoid as recommended and nothing can go past it unless the car is running. This was an option I paid for and not included in the kit so Hydrolock is not possible on mine, anyways? Shurflo have many different types of internal parts and not all the companies select the internals for 100% meth as they cheap out. I know for a fact that the system I had before, didn't have the internals that were rated 100% meth as it failed and I had to replace the system, because I started running more than 50 % meth mix and it damaged the pump internals. I agree with most of what you are saying there are lots of problems but then some of them would not have happened if they would have put it together correctly.


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## gtrluv (Jun 23, 2014)

*can a car that uses water/meth injection run without it at all*

can a car that uses water/meth injection run without it at all. just in case you run out in the middle of nowhere


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## geoffree (May 16, 2010)

Of course, just drive accordingly.
When highway cruising, light/moderate load, manifold under slight vacuum, you'd find there would be no W/M being injected.


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## Monster GT-R (Feb 23, 2008)

Yah you sure can drive without it. Keep the boost below 0.6 bar or there abouts on regular gas in the tank and maybe a 0.8 or 0.9 bar on premium gas. whats the big deal, your not using Meth now and what pressure are you running ? My meth isn't coming on until around 0.5 bar


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