# What constitutes as an upgrade



## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

BUYER BEWARE: 

UPGRADE CAN MEAN DOWNGRADE

just thought i'd take the opportunity as a fully paid up EXECUTIVE member of GTROC to vent my absolute disbelief at how after market UPGRADE provider OS GIKEN and their distributor RB motor sport is treating the failure of their upgrade LSD for the GTR 35 on my motor.

Back last year in preparation for what we knew would be a BIG power build the Guys at SVM, BASED on advice for RB Motor Sports! fitted an OS GIKEN Rear LSD to my motor to Handle the power it would deliver.

Now as many of you may be aware i had a failure of this unit at the Jap show finale the day after running a 8.93 1/4 mile.

Now as many of you would expect maybe this unit is faulty or perhaps not up to handling the power that our R35 delivers but let me ask you this.

I have a STOCK crown wheel and pinion it is still perfect

I have STOCK rear half shafts they are still perfect

But what broke????? the UPGRADED LSD from OS GIKEN, should it not be stronger than the OEM parts it is MATED too?

So what was the Upgrade apart for the Nissan high after market tax for a supposed good name?......check out the Porker forums for their past problems!!!

The LSD supplied from OS GIKEN was therefore by the fact it failed IF IT WAS NOT FAULTY not as strong as the OEM half shafts 

The OS GIKEN LSD was therefore not as strong as the OEM Crown Wheel and pinion.

So what was the F'ing upgrade that i paid for??????

What is very interesting is that of the top ten GTR 35's on Drag times and we are mostly talking sub 9 second cars here, only myself and one othe motor are running OS GIKEN rear LSD the others as far as the specifications state on Drag times are running OEM.

So what did I purchase as a so called upgrade ,.... A product that is weaker than the OEM rear half shafts so where is the upgrade apart from the name?

And then to rub salt into the wound their official UK distributor replies back to SVM and myself with the following.










You have to laugh or you would cry:bawling:

I wanted to pursue this to the courts but whats the point. to do this I would have had to stay quite about our failure until the court had made a judgement. Far better that the community decide for themselves and see what service you get from OS GIKEN and their UK distributor when you have a failure. 

Now I was willing if after a detailed engineering report (none have been provided) they had found a fault with the product to except that and replace the LSD and live with the cost of the inconvenience this failure caused but to simply say that I used it outwith the limitations of the product when there are no published limitations provided with the product beggars belief. Also from the attached you will see clearly when you purchase an OS GIKEN LSD it is not designed or warranted for Motor sport so why do we fit them?

That's a question I'm asking myself and others on here should also ask as it seems if you have 10 BHP more than OEM and enjoy motor sport this is obviously NOT the product for you as if you break it you are obviously on your own. If you want to upgrade your transmission and rear wheel drive components it is clear the OEM LSD is stronger than the OS GIKEN upgrade according to 8 out of ten of the top ten cars in the world where only two are running OS GIKEN (sorry only one now mine is broke ) according to Drag Times.

BUYER BEWARE OF THE BULLSHIT AND THE LACK OF AFTER SALES SUPPORT.

I have changed my mind after writing this I will now Pursue this into the courts to get a fair resolution and will if the law allows keep you all up to date with things as they progress.

Please pass this to others that are under the impression that if you pay out many Thousands of pounds for an after market upgrade it may end up being of inferior ability to handle power than the OEM parts you remove or teven those that remain on your motor but it will be in a nice box and have some good advertising to support it's inferior performance:squintdan


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## Boyakasha (May 10, 2004)

Poor show John, seems to be par for the course with 'tuning' parts manufacturers that don't stand by their products when they fail on 'tuned' cars. I know that PPG did this on their gearboxes for the Subarus and eventually downgraded the quoted power that they could handle to the point where it was about the same as an OEM box.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

johnhanton57 said:


> The OS GIKEN LSD was therefore not as strong as the OEM Crown Wheel and pinion


To be fair, it's a clutch so you'd realistically expect it to be weaker.



> Also from the attached you will see clearly when you purchase an OS GIKEN LSD it is not designed or warranted for Motor sport so why do we fit them?


Maybe the letter from RB lacks the correct wording? Does any aftermarket performance part come with a warranty that extends beyond manufacturing or materials defects?

Obviously, I'd be pissed of as well if it happened to me but I can't see how you could successfully claim against OSG/RBM if the part is manufactured correctly.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

John i have spoken with Jurgan,(he also runs OS GIKEN) we will try contacting the company direct, we will hope for more help, Fingers crossed >))
RB has just given a standard motorsport reply, Uk companies should not fight,and i hope we will all get our heads around this, and resolve the situation asap
chin up, World Records are hard to get,if they were easy everyone would have them lol

I will update you as soon as we know....I will help  
Jurgan.Jeff, Amar are all helping, lets see what they say kk


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

TAZZMAXX said:


> To be fair, it's a clutch so you'd realistically expect it to be weaker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The female splines ripped out of the centre of the OS Giken Item (simply the metal wasn't strong enough) maybe a fault?
Not the clutch part!
Also the diff ran Giken Oil and was warmed up as was suggested
kk


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Kudos for posting and pushing for answers.

I'd be inclined to go direct to OS, seems they have issues with their claims on power ratings for a lot of their products; gearboxes, engines and clutches to name a few.


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## ifty (Jul 27, 2005)

Good luck to you guys hope you get this issue resolved, we need records broken !!!!!


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

bit worrying as a OS giken USER...

want to try a lot of events next year and i dont want my OS diff breaking as it was not cheap..


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

TAZZMAXX said:


> To be fair, it's a clutch so you'd realistically expect it to be weaker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clutches never failed the splines within ripped out......poor show in my mind and NOT EVEN AN ENGINEERS REPORT just piss off:bawling:


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Is it rated to x lbft? If not, how do you know that it is within its design envelope.

The fac that other tandrd components in the same drivetrain have not failed is totally irrelevant.

Had you had the stock rear diff in, it may have failed at 400lbft less than you are running. In which case the giken diff IS an upgrade.

There's a lot more meat in a crown wheel and pinion, you have to compare like with like.

You are putting a massive load through that component so be fair to the thing. Your car is primarily a drag car, why not just take a standard rear diff and weld it up? Would be cheaper and would hold the torque. You could rely on syvecs to give you maximum traction across the axle so wouldn't need the diff effect.

Woudnt be so nice in the bends, but that might not matter to you.


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Guys,

I'm not saying the product is no good but if it fails before OEM kit it is mated too then it is NOT an upgrade but is sold as an upgrade. 
My feeling is I had a fualty unit but I have waited to put this out on the forum EXPECTING for the many THOUSANDS spent a FULL engineering report but am obviously pissed off at being told that OS GIKEN do not provide parts suitable for motor sport use instead of receiving the full failure report. 

Guess we all should just cruise the local high street and not use the fast pedal any more in an motor sport discipline.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

john has OS giken japan inspected the part ?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Adam surely it is for the manufacturer to supply details the the product it is fit for the purpose? motor sport or not, the sale of goods act applies
In the Uk this is law The fact this is the only brakeage of its kind oem or modified is a difficult one, imo it does point to a one off fault in the product (hence an unbiased analsice report needs to be carried out.

I'm sure the manufacturer will want to help out if the metal splines are faulty ? Lets give them a chance to respond!
As yet Jurgan only RB has inspected, maybe they can add why no help!


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Adamantium said:


> Is it rated to x lbft? If not, how do you know that it is within its design envelope.
> 
> The fac that other tandrd components in the same drivetrain have not failed is totally irrelevant.
> 
> ...


And what about the so called weak half shafts that we have seen broken many times? and there is an upgrade to them but i chose not to so they would be the weak point, I could not manage to break those so whats the OS GIKEN upgrade if it is not as strong as the KNOWN weak half shafts?:runaway:


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## alloy (Apr 29, 2005)

Interesting to title the letter "Withiut prejudice" considering the content of RBs note....... If RB advised SVM then by their own admission it is the "installer OR the tuners" responsibility to assure suitability......their letter head states "specialist vehicle engineering" that sounds like a tuner to me!......with an admission of responsibility like that, now the without prejudice is starting to make sense!

Hope you get a resolution John!


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

alloy said:


> Interesting to title the letter "Withiut prejudice" considering the content of RBs note....... If RB advised SVM then by their own admission it is the "installer OR the tuners" responsibility to assure suitability......their letter head states "specialist vehicle engineering" that sounds like a tuner to me!......with an admission of responsibility like that, now the without prejudice is starting to make sense!
> 
> Hope you get a resolution John!


Oh there will be a resolution that's for sure as under SOGA the onus is with the seller to prove that their kit was FFP if the fault happens withing 6 months . I got less than three months use a few runs in 3 months so Seller needs to stump up unless THEY prove buyer error or fault.

Plus i have also consequential losses i need to quantify which I will be persuing

This is all a shame as i don't think OS Giken are even aware of this as I suspect they have not been informed. But i may be wrong


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## MorePSiTehbett4 (Sep 15, 2009)

Too many variables to quantify one part as liable and thus warrantied/replaced, imo. Sorry for the misfortune, good job on running 8's!!!

I think I lost a motor to a faulty tial wg, couldn't prove it, though.


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

Running 8s is the key here.

How many people have the power and performance that you do? It may well have been an upgrade but just not upgraded enough for your purposes.

The fact that the drive shafts haven't failed yet is an indication of nothing, there are far too many variables from an engineering point of view to just assume they should break first.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

8 second qrts are not new, Jh only rand 1.6 60ft.  

The point we are making, is "normally" a drive shaft, half shaft, even diff casing* goes* *first* as others have! Seems very strange why in our case, the physical splines ripped out of a new product and this hasn't happened on an OEM diff unit

Maybe its John's weight LOL


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## Snapper (Oct 1, 2009)

From the sale of goods act, is it not the retailer that is responsible for resolution rather than the manufacturer? I'm not clear who the retailer is: RD Motorsport or SVM?

I'm sorry to read about your trouble.


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## MattGTR750 (Apr 26, 2012)

In my business the retailer (SVM I assume) would be responsible in pursuing any action regarding warranty or a faulty product with the distributor/wholesaler.

Anyway - good luck John hope you get it sorted!! Ridiculous for a expensive product to fail like that!!


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

Sorry to hear that but you guys are pushing the boundary's and are at the forefront. 

You will be most likely the first few people to get and push these new products to the edge. Part of what you do is experiment with what works and what does not (what are good products and bad). Most of us will benefit from your trial an errors.

But things like this are expected to happen. We know not to use OS giken now as the after sales support is crap etc etc.... Im sure there are other manufacturers like this and you should know better. You should know your taking a risk by buying a product thats not been proven before from a company that you dont know well. 

This is why a lot of us buy tried and tested products and many of us cant afford not to. In your case this is going to happen and I'm surprised it has not happened more often with other products.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

MattGTR750 said:


> In my business the retailer (SVM I assume) would be responsible in pursuing any action regarding warranty or a faulty product with the distributor/wholesaler.
> 
> Anyway - good luck John hope you get it sorted!! Ridiculous for a expensive product to fail like that!!


Agree, but as we know RB, this is difficult we were seriously hoping for a gesture of help, as these things can get messy, Inturn RB should be asking OS Giken for support, at the end of the day, this is new territory, and this situation, as it stands is not acceptable by the end user "John" 
*As said SVM will stand by the product*, fingers crossed we get a little help
It has cost all involved ,time, money and probably a chance of a world record on the day in question  Gutted :bawling:
kk


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't get this at all. How can you expect a company to stand by a product when it is used in such extreme conditions? If they don't rate and test it to 1500bhp/Lbft or whatever, why should they or the distributor have to pay out for a replacement?

The fact that other parts have survived is completely immaterial.

Sorry, but if you break boundaries and records, you have to pay to break components trying to get there.


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

We had lots of questions regarding an OS Giken diff last year (Supplied by RB Motorsport). We initially asked RB some questions, but actualyy got very helpfull replies from OS Giken in Japan.

We supplied them with the part no and they answered all of our questions, filled in the blanks and made recomendations. We then spoke to RB Motorsport about making changes and what not.

We are running a few OS Giken bits and bobs now...

OSG RC3 clutch
OSG SuperLock X Spec rear diff - not currently fitted, but sitting round the garage! Expensive paper weight!
OSG OS88 Sequential

I've always rated them :s

Not really in the same spirit of your problem (i.e nothing has simply failed) but maybe contacting OS Giken direct in japan will help move things along. As said before... they were very helpfull.


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

as a side note..... We fitted an OS Giken rear diff to improve grip <and the difference off the line is amazing>, not because it was stronger than standard. Do they state its stronger <can deal with greater torque>?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Impossible said:


> Sorry to hear that but you guys are pushing the boundary's and are at the forefront.
> 
> You will be most likely the first few people to get and push these new products to the edge. Part of what you do is experiment with what works and what does not (what are good products and bad). Most of us will benefit from your trial an errors.
> 
> ...




*In your case this is going to happen and I'm surprised it has not happened more often with other products.[/QUOTE]*


*It has* , we are progressing with a group of products that have been fully tested  if they do not man up there out! Again i reiterate the end result is to give products headroom
who will want 1500bhp or even 1800bhp (only me) lol these cars lead the way for other's :runaway:
We break,we fix we move on  :bowdown1:

Now for something *Diff*erent 

kk


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

Sounds to me like the diff is 'stronger' and therefore 'upgraded', what it isn't and I doubt was ever claimed is 'unbreakable'. 

Personally I wouldn't expect anything to be guaranteed when you're talking about racing on dragstrips with 2-3 times the stock power levels.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Why would the os diff be* stronger *and then broke? (when oem units havn't broke!)
seems more like a down grade,or faulty!


imo they are fit for a purpose, and drag racing isn't one of them
kk


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

My company operates several Oil and Gas assets and purchases many parts to improve production year on year.

Clear guidelines are set to the manufacturers regarding performance and the contract companies undartake engineering design to ensure the product can meet expectations. (Read OSG)

Any failures are thoroughly investigated so future 'similar' failures do not occur.
(Did SVM agree to perform R&D trials for their product?)

IF SVM made it clear to RB the intention of use and IF RB recommended the part which subsequently failed then the first call should be a detailed independent inspection as to why the part failed, until that has been done, it's going nowhere TBH.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Update,, 
*No more can be said *by us (svm) we are going to give OS Giken all the details
and talk to them directly in Japan..will update asap
kk


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Update,,
> *No more can be said *by us (svm) we are going to give OS Giken all the details
> and talk to them directly in Japan..will update asap
> kk


I thought that would have been sensible before you and your client got on the forum and went bananas. :nervous:


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

CT17 said:


> I thought that would have been sensible before you and your client got on the forum and went bananas. :nervous:


Quite true but it also assumes that RB have informed OSG of the failure prior to issuing their letter and that it is the official response from OSG.

Communication is the key here.


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

CT17 said:


> I thought that would have been sensible before you and your client got on the forum and went bananas. :nervous:


+1

but since you have posted the thread before contacting os I will comment

Because you are setting new limits ( and much kudos for doing so) this inevitably means going beyond levels of stress others have reached and therefore manufacturers can hardly be expected to have tested something to.


As to who should pick up the tab for any failure clearly its not rb (imho)

They have just supplied the box (from OS gilken) they didnt design it , fit it or break it.

And as I understand it the path to getting such amazing times has meant breaking lots of bits and having lots of upgrades , some of which have also broken more than once . Just dont see how this is different. 
Being the first to anywhere means you are will always be in unchartered teritory and as such its difficult to blame anyone if you get temporarily lost. 

lastly all things aside massive respect for acheiving those times


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

CT17 said:


> I thought that would have been sensible before you and your client got on the forum and went bananas. :nervous:


This happened some time back, 
as you can see, it was a reply to an email i sent ! I ask for direct contact details @ OS Giken.! all i got was the official understanding. 
as for me going bananas , i think not,I have tried my hardest to sought this issue out! Obviously John as a member of the GTROC has voiced his side.

kk


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## Impossible (May 11, 2011)

if there actually is something wrong with the product the supplier should reimburse.
Then it is up to the supplier to sort it out with the manufacturer.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Impossible said:


> if there actually is something wrong with the product the supplier should reimburse.
> Then it is up to the supplier to sort it out with the manufacturer.


We are...
As said more than once...SVM stand by the parts we supply.

As for our supplier or the manufacturer the juries out!


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## 800bhp (Nov 11, 2010)

RSVFOUR said:


> As to who should pick up the tab for any failure clearly its not rb (imho)
> 
> They have just supplied the box (from OS gilken) they didnt design it , fit it or break it.


No..... for parts manufactured outside the EU the responsibility to resolve any problems lies with the importer or agent (in this case RB), not the manufacturer (OSG).


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

RSVFOUR said:


> As to who should pick up the tab for any failure clearly its not rb (imho)
> 
> They have just supplied the box (from OS gilken) they didnt design it , fit it or break it.


And if as an OS agent they recommended the part for use in this application?


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

oem units have broken!


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

mindlessoath said:


> oem units have broken!


Not the same part as far as i know (inner splines)
kk


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## Voyager (Jul 20, 2012)

as an engineer i often get asked, "dave can you redesign this product to work better" then someone drops a part on my desk and leaves.

the criteria of "better" is about as grey as it gets, "improved performance" likewise.

sometimes i will say, yes, i can make this £1k oem part absolutely bulletproof with improved performance lightness and longevity but it will cost you £1million for each one, but it will be the best part in the world.

at this point we start to refine what "improved performance" really means,

should it handle stress levels say 5% over oem or 50% or 500% only by defining the parameters can we even begin working on a design model.

now who is to say OSG didnt have this same discussion and decided that the new diff (for an increased cost over oem) handle 25% more torque than std or 50% if this is the case then yes it is an upgrade, but in this instance was used at i dunno 100% above oem torque levels. to say the part is not an upgrade over standard would be wrong.

however OSG should specify a torque limit for the part, but then more parameters come into play such as shock loading peak, from launch on sticky drag tyres, or lateral loading from hard cornering, but in all these instances the diff could be an upgrade over oem just not enough of an upgrade for your requirements, if OSG made diffs to be unbreakable then there is a good chance they could be a £million each.

i have appeared in court on a number of occasions as an independent engineering expert and although i feel for your issues i see little chance of you getting a judgement in your favour,

but good luck.


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Agree, but as we know RB, this is difficult we were seriously hoping for a gesture of help, as these things can get messy, Inturn RB should be asking OS Giken for support, at the end of the day, this is new territory, and this situation, as it stands is not acceptable by the end user "John"
> *As said SVM will stand by the product*, fingers crossed we get a little help
> It has cost all involved ,time, money and probably a chance of a world record on the day in question  Gutted :bawling:
> kk


Why not all get your heads together and buy a new better LSD and split the cost 3 ways. This way you keep relationships and is good for business. 

I would say you will go to the courts and they struggle to commit to a resolution without some expensive reports. No doubt os giken have test torque reports that are readily available and can prove the have extensively tested. 

It will end up with all parties having a bad taste in everyone's mouth. John will have to go to litigation with svm as that is who he has the contract with. Svm will then need to take rb to the courts. All of this costs and will leave everyone in a poor relation. 

Get a meeting set up civilly and split the cost for the new unit between all parties. 

Simples


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

Also I need to say that I am in the construction industry and I have to do my due diligence on all products to ensure that they are fit for purpose. This means that I need to obtain the technical details and test data from the manufacturers to confirm the product performs correctly. 

For example I don't just simple install plasterboard in a mental ward because I know that we need higher impact boards. Therefore I check the product data to decide on the product. 

I have read through this post and johns build post and it seems nobody has requested the test data from os giken. They will have torque tests and data available to which the onus is on the suppliers/specialists to obtain and verify against the torque the car is producing they are using the product on. Simply guessing is not the way forward and from what I have read and seen johns car is very much an experiment and pushing the boundaries. Unfortunately you have pushed the boundary and destroyed a component. 

I am not sure what else can be said but it is clear from the forum posts, the car is an experiment. Unfortunately r and d and chasing numbers costs money and tears. 

Chin up and come to some compromise. I am sure Kevin will be up for a deal as you are heavily promoting his business and helping with r and d


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Im in 
kk


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## paul__k (Dec 8, 2007)

Is there a link to the diff used?

They must specify a torque / type of use / Power for the unit surely?

Am hoping OS Giken / RB motorsport will be sensible about this and at least make some kind of goodwill gesture.


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## Jm-Imports (Feb 12, 2007)

tbh am sure its in the best interest that OS giken take a look at this damaged part and could maybe improve the product or set some clairity as to what the part is rated at.

from my dealings over the last 10 years in the JDM buisness the japanese are very helpfull.


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Hi folks,

Back down off the ceiling after that F-ck off letter we got yesterday from RB motor sport. What really pissed me off was that we were told to piss off without any engineering report on the route cause of failure. Nothing provided other than F off

I too am in a business that spends a lot of time on failure analysis as that way we can improve or change the way we do things. to get a letter saying as you have used this product in a motor sport application we will not exchange the broken part. Do RB sell anything NOT for a motor sport application?

If we had an engineers report on the failure we could then let everyone know the limits for this product which would be good for the community as no point wasting you time if it's only good for 650 bhp and you want to run 750 bhp.

I have taken legal advice and the issue here is trades description. If OS Giken product is not for motor sport application or will not be warranted for such application why is it that via RB motor sport and via OS Giken adverts in motor sport magazines targeted at the motor sport community.

Is it for motor sport or not. seemingly NOT as RB will not exchange a unit that has been used for motor sport.

Now there has been a lot of talk on the last few pages about power i am running. prove it....I have never run a dyno run in the last year. There is also talk about the specifications and limits of the product supplied. Well where are they and where does it state the Limits and the operating envelope of the product.

I would love for there to be a simple resolution but at the end of the day I also don't want you all buying a product that is only good for 300 ft lbs of torque.

Now just as my LSD broke it could be because it is a faulty product but did the distributor get any independent analysis done? well not that I have seen, 

No all i got was a letter saying F-ck off.

Not what I would expect in these early days of GTR35 tuning scene. 

Yes we will break things but there are ways to handle this and it is not to hide these breakages as from the greater Tuning community but instead to have all parties spread the load a little and learn improve and move on.

Now as for people assuming that the product broke due to high torque or wheel hop or other abnormal loads that too is an assumption just as much as assuming i was on full chat. Too many assumptions by all instead of first class engineering analysis that you would expect from OS Giken. Do they not want to know why their product failed. I would if I were them so I could improve and sell more that were even better than the product might be already. But we will never know as it seems that their distributor thinks it simpler to just tell me to F-off than to do the hard work and improve

BUT TO TELL ME TO F-CK OFF HOW DARE YOU!!!! NOBODY DOES THAT WHO KNOWS ME!! 

THAT WAS A BIG MISTAKE AND IF WE NEED TO GO TO THE LAW FOR SETTLEMENT THEN SO BE IT BUT IT WILL NOT BE SVM I PURSUE BUT OS GIKEN UNDER TRADES DESCRIPTION FOR DESCRIBING A PRODUCT FOR MOTOR SPORT THEN SAYING THAT IF USED FOR THIS APPLICATION THEN WARRANTY OR EXCHANGE WILL BE REFUSED.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Chap please no shouting. Nobody minds you making the point, but ranting on the board and threatening this and that isn't going to solve anything.


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## CT17 (Mar 25, 2011)

Don't tell him off, nobody who knows him does that...

Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood.


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

johnhanton57 said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Back down off the ceiling after that F-ck off letter we got yesterday from RB motor sport. What really pissed me off was that we were told to piss off without any engineering report on the route cause of failure. Nothing provided other than F off
> 
> ...


I don't think you'll win to be honest John. Your contract is with svm and not with rb Motorsport. Did you or anyone in svm get the technical stats of this unit to assess its suitability? 

You can't moan at the manufacturer if the supplier/tuner hasn't done his homework and checked the data sheets of the product. All rb have done is supplied and delivered a part requested by svm. They have completed their contract and they are not mind readers into what this product is going into. 

You say you have never dyno tested your car but you 8 sec run suggests you are pushing 1300 to 1400 bhp. 

I bet if you ask rb or os giken they will send you over the test evidence and testing data. Os giken are not a mickey mouse company neither and you will struggle with litigation as they have no registered uk office and you do not have a contract with them. 

I think you will waste a large amount of energy pursuing this to find only disappointment and even more out of pocket. 

Just compromise, but you have done most people a favour as people now know don't use thisnlsd in cars running over 1000bhp. 

Good luck with what eve you do but life is too short. 

Our of interest why was it or who was it who made you go os giken?


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

CT17 said:


> Don't tell him off, nobody who knows him does that...
> 
> Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood.


pmsl 

Sorry for the rant.

just thought i'd post up what OS Giken say about their product and have highlighted the best part 

What is the difference between an OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD and another companies LSD?

In racing applications, the function of the LSD is to allow the drive wheels to apply equal traction under acceleration and deceleration. Unlike our competitors' products, the OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD is engineered to be extremely responsive to throttle input to smoothly lock or loosen accordingly. Through its innovative and patented design, up to twice as many friction plates are able to fit into the housing when compared to our competitors' products, enabling the OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD to achieve true 100% locking capability. Unlike our competitors, the OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD is also customizable by adjusting the spring inside the pressure ring. Additionally, its superior design allows for excellent streetability, virtually eliminating the “chatter” associated with other clutch type LSD brands. Each component of every OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD uses only the highest grade materials and manufacturing processes and is constructed and finished to extremely tight tolerances, eliminating any “break-in” period necessary with other brands. 

I quote "Due to its superior design and extreme care throughout the manufacturing process, there has yet to be a case recorded of an OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD failing in the field, or even requiring a rebuild!" 

]


ha ha ha ha ha makes me laugh


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

CT17 said:


> Don't tell him off, nobody who knows him does that...
> 
> Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood.


Lol :thumbsup:


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

johnhanton57 said:


> I quote "Due to its superior design and extreme care throughout the manufacturing process, there has yet to be a case recorded of an OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD failing in the field, or even requiring a rebuild!"
> 
> ]


You were the first uk gtr into the 8's and can claim that you were the first to break their LSD lol


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

baileyconstruct said:


> You were the first uk gtr into the 8's and can claim that you were the first to break their LSD lol


You just gave me an idea for the new web site 

*Breaking News*
John breaks into the 8s
Medusa Break's *Giken* 

John , i thought it was the Hulk that get's Angry???

kk


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## matt j (Oct 19, 2001)

Is this the product in question?

http://www.osgiken.co.jp/pdf/1004os_s-locklsd_cat-en.pdf

Clearly says used in race/drag applications, no mention of not to be used in motorsport, in fact quite the opposite!


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## Protegimus (Aug 31, 2011)

I understand the frustration gents, the response from RB certainly should have been to put you in touch with OS Giken directly. I expect that is the only way this might go anywhere that doesn't involve buying a new porka or modern equivalent audi for a legal gentleman and still being no further forward.

Incidentally, OS Giken advertise a specific LSD version, the "Super Lock LSD ***8211; Spec X
for vehicles that are heavily modified or are particpating [sp] in specific forms of motorsports, we offer the Spec-X LSD. The custom order Spec-X is available in 1-way, 1.5-way, and 2-way configurations and can be made with custom cam angles, lock timing, and initial torque settings."
As it's custom order for motorsport, I expect all the torque level/intended use questions (that people were citing as an excuse for no warranty, which is a bit crap knowing the part is supplied through a motorsport specialist) would be understood by the manufacturer and a suitable product supplied.

As others have said, you are really at the forefront in this field and hopefully the quality manufacturers will engage and back you with a product that can help you and no doubt them, given a bit of success!

Good luck!

Protegimus


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## R4LLY (Aug 9, 2006)

I have no affiliation with any parties concerned here, and I come from a Supra background, so forgive me if my views are a little different.

Now, within our community there are numerous 1500whp cars and cars that run these sort of times, as well as deep 7's.
There is no way that anyone would expect an LSD to last at that sort of power level and for that purpose for an extended purpose of time.
When we went racing out in the states, every race team had a whole load of spares with them.

UGR who charge stupid amounts of money for their TTG Builds even had a Spare Gallardo to take parts off just in case!!

Spare transmissions, engines, turbos, diffs, and axles are the norm out there for cars that are trying to break records....

Racing at these levels and breaking records does = breaking parts.

At the end of the day, OS Giken will need to spend X amount of money to develop a product for a handful of vehicles. There's probably less than 1% of their GTR market at 1500hp.


Any time a 1500hp Supra goes to the track a spare Diff is taken just in case. 

We use TRD's which are also a race LSD. However they do occasionally fail.

There is not a single manufacturer out there who will be able to warrant a 1600hp drag car using their LSD. It just can't happen in the world of racing.

You guys have achieved so much in so little time, but you'll need to appreciate that things like that will break, and often as well! You can't blame the suppliers or manufacturers unless you can prove that there is an actual manufacturing fault with your specific unit.

The others that are running OEM LSD's may not have had an issue that you know of, however they all will have one eventually.

Drag racing at your levels will always entail broken parts....


If OS Giken decide to custom build a LSD for yourselves then that would be great, however for such a small market base I wouldn't expect it to be cheap, and even then it will never last for a long time at that power....


Don't mean to offend anyone, so don't take it the wrong way at all. I just have never heard of anyone getting angry when breaking parts at this power level before.

Maybe RB could have been a little more tactful in their response, but the end result would have been the same I guess...


Just take a leaf out of UGR's book and take a spare GTR with you just in case


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

R4LLY said:


> I have no affiliation with any parties concerned here, and I come from a Supra background, so forgive me if my views are a little different.
> 
> Now, within our community there are numerous 1500whp cars and cars that run these sort of times, as well as deep 7's.
> There is no way that anyone would expect an LSD to last at that sort of power level and for that purpose for an extended purpose of time.
> ...


I totally agree with everything you have stated.

But the fact still remains we got told to F=off without any engineering report on the failure so we could learn. and also as quoted this is the manufacturers claim about their product.

I quote "Due to its superior design and extreme care throughout the manufacturing process, there has yet to be a case recorded of an OS Giken SUPER LOCK LSD failing in the field, or even requiring a rebuild!" 

That is why we fitted it:smokin:


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

johnhanton57 said:


> I totally agree with everything you have stated.
> 
> But the fact still remains we got told to F=off without any engineering report on the failure so we could learn. and also as quoted this is the manufacturers claim about their product.
> 
> ...


But what if the thing was fitted to a 6000hp drag car??? Would they have to warrant the thing then?

I'm sure RB could have been more tacful, but and it is a big but, we do not know what emails and correspondence was being sent to them. Maybe for all the members to get a fair assessment, then maybe it would be good and fair to post up Kevan's email they are responding to.

Normally, I only respond as RB did when I have had correspondence that pisses me off.

Can you upload this email, or maybe RB can come on here and do it and give their side of the story?


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## Adamantium (Jun 24, 2002)

baileyconstruct said:


> Can you upload this email, or maybe RB can come on here and do it and give their side of the story?


Experience of these threads over many years of car forum use has shown me that RB will come off best by keeping things off the forum. If I were them, I wouldn't dream of posting on here.


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## MIKEGTR (Jul 8, 2005)

baileyconstruct said:


> But what if the thing was fitted to a 6000hp drag car??? Would they have to warrant the thing then?
> 
> I'm sure RB could have been more tacful, but and it is a big but, we do not know what emails and correspondence was being sent to them. Maybe for all the members to get a fair assessment, then maybe it would be good and fair to post up Kevan's email they are responding to.
> 
> ...


I think the arguement is more to the fact that out of 10 of the fastest R35's, 2 were running OS 'uprated' diffs and the rest are standard, yet the standard ones are surviving and the 'uprated' one has failed.

I don't think anyone is saying that "I've bought this uprated part and it will never fail on me no matter what power I run" I think John is simply and quite rightly agrieved that a part he has spent a significant sum on has proved less reliable than a standard part.

However, as we all know, by uprating parts i.e. a clutch, it can sometimes move the problem along to the next weekest link in the chain - although I wouldn't expect it to be the spline in this scenario


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

baileyconstruct said:


> But what if the thing was fitted to a 6000hp drag car??? Would they have to warrant the thing then?
> 
> I'm sure RB could have been more tactful, but and it is a big but, we do not know what emails and correspondence was being sent to them. Maybe for all the members to get a fair assessment, then maybe it would be good and fair to post up Kevan's email they are responding to.
> 
> ...


A little from our side , 
SVM purchased the diff from RB 
RB knew of the intended use ,as all parties did
John did good, 208mph in 1km, 168mph 1/4 mile (everyone was happy)

The diff broke, in a very unusual place not seen before by any R35 world wide.
as we have said the actual female splined section ripped out that carried the oem (male part) half shaft. 
This hasn't happened before even with the oem unit.

Phone calls to RB were made, 
At the request of RB the diff was sent over for inspection
After inspection, RB stated the diff was not rated for the power
They informed Amar,All OS Giken products were not warranted for motor sport use they also informed us it was our duty of care to restrict the use in a controlled manor.
The claim was refused.
I personally sent an email to RB, asking for a direct contact to OS Giken in Japan, Nothing else was said or asked for
The letter you have seen was there Reply.

SVM take our responsibility seriously, We understand the power levels will open up new issues, however I feel what is very disappointing in this case is
OS Giken and the supplier are dismissing the claim without really analysing the item in it's entirity. 

How does any one know this isn't just a faulty Batch? (This is what we feel it maybe).

I would think it in there interest they would be first in the queue insisting this to be done, for there own R&D

Questions have been raised:
Why hasn't the stock diffs broken in the same area?
Why is it not coved up to a certain BHP/Torque ?
Why was it sold by a motor sport shop? and comes with no garentee? 

Now just to say "its motorsport" and we just have to accept the outcome has fuelled the situation.

Why didn't RB from a duty and care point of view, relay there concerns about this product being used in such a manor? They knew better than most the limitations of these products, in fact they were quite happy to sell an OS Giken unit to power the Hulk @ over 1200bhp!

We all knew the risk's, and I am personally not asking for a continuous supply of diffs to support our racing , just a little help and support would be nice 

No costings or claims were made by SVM or JH from his part (at this point)
When it happened I said to JH would put it right  and I stand by that!

We wanted to ask RB and Giken for some help, in what had happened, to work with both companies to maybe improve the product (good will?) our time and a little help with costing, fair?

After my very short email requesting the manufactures details,to put my side!
RB formal response came via email 

From my point, this is all getting out of hand and taking much of my time
OS Giken to date have not contacted SVM ,we are trying to get our side 
on paper to these guys (Translation issues )asap (I have problems writing in English LOL)

Pls let this process happen and I will let you know the final outcome
for what's its worth I think the Giken product, helped in our quest and I'm still of an opinion this is a one off breakage 
As it stands we will never know, it is not fair imo I fund alone R&D of others, IMO we all gain by this crazy development of power, and I hope this continues, and all partners can work together, SVM take on there own development costs Clutches.throttles,blocks etc etc, isn't it fair for all manufacture participants to do the same?

Thankyou Regards Sorry if I rambled on too much 
I have cars to tune :thumbsup:
kk


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

MIKEGTR said:


> I think the arguement is more to the fact that out of 10 of the fastest R35's, 2 were running OS 'uprated' diffs and the rest are standard, yet the standard ones are surviving and the 'uprated' one has failed.
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying that "I've bought this uprated part and it will never fail on me no matter what power I run" I think John is simply and quite rightly agrieved that a part he has spent a significant sum on has proved less reliable than a standard part.
> 
> However, as we all know, by uprating parts i.e. a clutch, it can sometimes move the problem along to the next weekest link in the chain - although I wouldn't expect it to be the spline in this scenario


+1 bingo


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## mindlessoath (Nov 30, 2007)

MIKEGTR said:


> I think the arguement is more to the fact that out of 10 of the fastest R35's, 2 were running OS 'uprated' diffs and the rest are standard, yet the standard ones are surviving and the 'uprated' one has failed.
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying that "I've bought this uprated part and it will never fail on me no matter what power I run" I think John is simply and quite rightly agrieved that a part he has spent a significant sum on has proved less reliable than a standard part.
> 
> However, as we all know, by uprating parts i.e. a clutch, it can sometimes move the problem along to the next weekest link in the chain - although I wouldn't expect it to be the spline in this scenario


stock lsd has broken in some


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## MIKEGTR (Jul 8, 2005)

mindlessoath said:


> stock lsd has broken in some


But I believe (fromm reading this thread, not from personal knoweldge) that none have broken the spline, as per the OS problem?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

mindlessoath said:


> stock lsd has broken in some


Again, NOT THE SPLINES (as far as i know)
kk


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## DarrenA (Aug 15, 2012)

As others have mentioned surely the right approach here is for a detailed engineers report to be done on the component first and then afterwards argue about who shares what portion of the cost depending upon the outcome. OS may still try to use rightly or wrongly the motorsport or too much power argument in the end but at least the root cause of the failure would be known and would be transparent (which would also make subsequent arguments easier to conclude). As it stands it seems like there is a fair possibility that this was a manufacturing fault of some kind and the manufacturers (or at least their representatives)are trying to run away from ownership - even if that is not true it can certainly be interpreted like that and perceptions count in business!!. Im not saying too much power is not a valid argument (maybe it is maybe it isnt) but surely if nothing else its down to the manufacturer to prove the root cause of the failure by an independant report? Even if the power was the cause what levels do the manufacturer claim it can take and warrant it to? (I havent seen this anywhere and this again just adds to the impression of a sidestep IMO). Its good to see SVM standing by their customer (respect) which Im sure will give others the comfort to use them in future but I doubt the same is true of RB or OS at the minute....(sounds a bit like the Cors wheel issue to me)


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

Hi Guy's to show what actually happened i have taken some pictures
Hope you can see the damaged splines, amazingly the short Oem half-shafts had no damage 
at all, maybe the Giken steel is much softer, but i agree with the above comment
an independent report is required



















Side New's
As for components breaking, Chubbies, last outing,testing at the Nurburgring track in the SVM powered Time attack car was cut short  due to a severe rear end noise reported by the driver, Fearing an Giken Diff issue  the car was transported back to the UK

Today we can say the diff is in good health  and has stood up well to 12 months abuse in this particular GTR  Again this points to a fault in the product in Medusa!
Yes i understand not quite the same discipline, but never the less a tough environment 
and test imo

A Full report will be uploaded on Chubbies post asap
issue this time was the gearbox 

kk


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

UpDate

Richard from RB has kindly sent me an email, maybe some light now at the end of the tunnel
i sure hope so?

OS Giken want to view the diff for themselves, the main members are out at the sema show until Monday and wish to answer then. 

We can also report OS Giken can now supply a stronger unit for high drag application's
however this would be a one off application
"Sounds Pricey" lol
I will pray 4 good news and the Lad's come good..

John,pls mind the apple-cart 

Regards kk


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

baileyconstruct said:


> But what if the thing was fitted to a 6000hp drag car??? Would they have to warrant the thing then?
> 
> I'm sure RB could have been more tacful, but and it is a big but, we do not know what emails and correspondence was being sent to them. Maybe for all the members to get a fair assessment, then maybe it would be good and fair to post up Kevan's email they are responding to.
> 
> ...





I dont mind cards on the table and Im sure RB are ok
not a lot really said my full email below kk




From: Kevan Kemp [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: 30 October 2012 16:39
To: [email protected]; Amar Dhillon
Subject: OS Giken



Hi Richard, i hear OS Giken do not want to help with John diff failure 



Can you pls forward a direct contact (@OS GIKEN) we can put a case too, as John wishes to take this matter further



many thanks 

kevan


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## baileyconstruct (Feb 1, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> I dont mind cards on the table and Im sure RB are ok
> not a lot really said my full email below kk
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with that email. 

It would be nice for os giken to review the part. See what next week brings :thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## Voyager (Jul 20, 2012)

i think the fault here and management of the issue, falls to RB.
their reply using the "motorsport" get out clause was a bad one and really shouldnt have been used.

they should have refrained from any non prejudicial reply until obtaining either an independant engineers report locally or returning the part to OSG for analysis.

i am 100% sure RB cannot obtain a metallurgical report on the diff input spline without sending it out for lab tests, so their letter appears to not to really account for the reason for the failure.

so what we have here is,

there is a manufacturing defect in the spline shaft, or
the diff was used way beyond its design parameters.

if OSG or RB can prove that there is no manufacturing defect, then your shit out of luck i'm afraid.

normally a reasonable customer facing retailer will weigh up the cost of an independant metallurgical report versus the repair cost for the item and either repair and return to the customer with a clear non warranty goodwill letter, or send to the lab and hope for the best.

if we are down to exceeding design parameters, then i'm afraid thats racing and as has been pointed out above when at the cutting edge of motorsport you expect to replace broken parts. your comment re your car never being on a dyno for ages so no one knows what the torgue or HP is, really made me laugh considering your running 8's. and any litigation lawyer worth his salt would crucify you with that,

the quicker quaife start doing R35 lsd's the better, or maybe they feel it best to stay away from this market sector


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## Mookistar (Feb 5, 2004)

Voyager said:


> the quicker quaife start doing R35 lsd's the better, or maybe they feel it best to stay away from this market sector


AHEM!

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/170474-r35-quaife-diffs.html


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## Voyager (Jul 20, 2012)

as they say Quaife pedigree speaks for itself, have used many of their products over the years. doesn't mean they wont break, but dealing with a UK manufacturer for whom "motorsport" is not a reason to deny warranty has to be easier than trying to claim from a JDM manuf, via 2 re-sellers


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

*has to be easier than trying to claim from a JDM manuf, via 2 re-sellers*
__________________

This will not be the case....SVM will sought John out, what ever OS Giken decide (good or bad) i have said this from the off,our customer's come first and we will do what we can. 

John's car is being worked on, many gearbox mods are required also we are going for more power LOL The Race marches on, on we are backing him 100% To have a shot at the world record 

We will get him back on track , asap  Hope you guys can also get behind him !
kk


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## RSVFOUR (May 1, 2006)

I am pretty sure that everyone is behind john (and svm ) in his/their attempts to go faster still.

It was just that personally I would never have posted this thread up untill I had contacted gilken and had a reply. 
And of course if you post on an open forum then you are inviting all replies 

But of course he should do things the way he feels is right and lets hope it gets resolved satisfactorally


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## Swobber (Oct 8, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Hope you guys can also get behind him !
> kk


This is where things get ugly :chukle:


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## DarrenA (Aug 15, 2012)

From my point, this is all getting out of hand and taking much of my time
OS Giken to date have not contacted SVM ,we are trying to get our side 
on paper to these guys (Translation issues )asap (I have problems writing in English LOL)

If at the appropriate point you need help with some translation I have someone who can help - just let me know


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## dominic1 (Feb 16, 2012)

Having read this thead, my 2p is ,

The internet is not a nice place for things like this to disscussed, words on the screen can often appear to written in a way that the person writing them did not mean,. If i am writing i often "step away" or ask some one else to read before hitting send.

From past experince i may add, hope things can get sorted for all, 

cheers 

dom


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

dominic1 said:


> Having read this thead, my 2p is ,
> 
> The internet is not a nice place for things like this to disscussed, words on the screen can often appear to written in a way that the person writing them did not mean,. If i am writing i often "step away" or ask some one else to read before hitting send.
> 
> ...


Although Dom this may be the kick up the backside this situation required?
*It was going nowhere*,with two sides completely out of pocket 
Time will tell  Lets all hope we can move on now asap

Also letting others know, may help in the future imo
kk


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## Adam Kindness (Jun 22, 2002)

what is it with folk from Aberdeen and fast GTR's :lol:

Keith, Hugh, John.....


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Adam Kindness said:


> what is it with folk from Aberdeen and fast GTR's :lol:
> 
> Keith, Hugh, John.....


Obviously want to get away quickly to England!


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## Hugh Keir (Jul 25, 2001)

Have to say that as a long term user of OS Giken products, in my experience they are well engineered and resist significant abuse with ease.

An LSD is designed to resist rotation between driveshafts which may mean that the OS Giken unit with its progressive clutch pack is able to transfer more torque to one side or another when compared to a standard LSD, leading to overloading of the spines.

Whether this is at the root of the problem is going to be hard to judge since the loads on the diff splines are subject to many effects of weight transfer, tyre grip etc.

As a businessman, you must know that publicly slagging off a supplier is not likely to make you any friends when you are looking for an improved technical solution, especially when there appears to be no claim from OS Giken that their unit will cope with XXX BHP regardless of circumstances. 

Clearly your quest for more power is still game on and we all applaud you for that.

Hopefully this will be a one off and you will continue to successfully push the boundaries in 2013.

Cheers

Hugh


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

:sadwavey:


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

89010


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)




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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2010)

John ?


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## Jasper013 (Aug 16, 2011)

Adamantium said:


> Experience of these threads over many years of car forum use has shown me that RB will come off best by keeping things off the forum. If I were them, I wouldn't dream of posting on here.


Very honourable, but RB have a business and reputation to protect.
If they think they can ride it out then fair enough - entirely up to them, but if there is further information they can provide that would help everyones understanding, that should be encouraged.


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## soggy (Apr 28, 2003)

A while back when Hiteq were still trading they had a few issues with OS twin plate clutches for the Pulsar GTiR....where the spleen was stripping away on the clutch plate from the gearbox shaft.
Ian reckoned a batch of "inferior" metal was being used in the manufacture of said clutches. They were also purchased from the main OS agent, although I don't know if the issues were ever resolved.


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## RJJ (Aug 11, 2012)

My opinion, business's have to adapt to the internet as the internet is an integral part of our life now.

Business's can reach far more consumers now because of the internet and it is a very useful tool for marketing & selling their products, making them successful & profitable.

The flip side to the coin is when things go wrong & the consumer feels they have not been dealt with correctly the internet will go against the business as bad publicity can go against the said business due to the problem being highlighted to a far greater audience so resulting in decreased levels of confidence & in turn decreased profits. 

In this case as mentioned, an independent assessment is the way forward as it will be transparent & fair to both the consumer and the business. The middle ground can then be reached whichever way that is possible.

Hope the issue gets sorted but I understand why you vented your frustration at the failure on an internet forum.

Failure of parts will always happen, it's how the business deals with it, that will mark it out as good business & in turn having confidence in its products & it's customer base.


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

A parties are now talking and the part in question will be properly examined so for me a result.:clap:

I think there may have been a fault with the metallurgy however only by carrying out a full examination and a proper report done on the failed product will we know.

Only due to 6 weeks of nothing happening was i forced to take the route of discussing this on the forum and believe me when i say it is not something i would normally do.

Thanks now to RB motor sport and to SVM for now taking the next step of a proper failure analysis which was all I ever asked for:thumbsup:


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## RJJ (Aug 11, 2012)

Totally understand your predicament John.

No one likes to be backed into a corner, consumer or a business.

Hope it all works out ok for you matey:thumbsup:


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

RJJ said:


> Totally understand your predicament John.
> 
> No one likes to be backed into a corner, consumer or a business.
> 
> Hope it all works out ok for you matey:thumbsup:


Cheers:thumbsup:


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I hope you get a satisfactory resolution to your problem.

I am however surprised that running at an obviously high level of motorsport, especially in drag racing, which is without doubt the hardest form of competition on transmission components, and running at the bleeding edge of development of a fairly new car to be used in this genre, you EXPECT a warranty on parts. As someone who has worked in and around motorsport for more years than I care to remember, at up to and including F3 and F3000, I can assure you it is NOT the norm for makers of parts used in a competitive environment to warrant them, or for users to expect a warranty. I have had hugely expensive engines blow to smithereens on the engine dyno on their first power run, and did not expect the builder to do anything more than shrug. In most cases a compromise was reached, but in the cases where the engine were built for "maximum smoke" no one would expect to be held accountable for a failure where the item in question was being pushed to an ultimate high. I feel whatever offer is made in the case of your LSD centre section it should be warmly embraced. If no offer is forthcoming I would not be peeved at all.

I have a good engine builder friend whose counter back wall is adorned with mangled and shrapnel'ed engine parts. To the side of these he has a clear sign. "Speed costs money, how fast can YOU afford to go?" Such is the nature of competitive motorsport. Kitchen, heat and all that....  Good luck, but at the level you appear to want to operate at I would say you should NOT expect parts to be warranted and to EXPECT parts failures from time to time.


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Chris Wilson said:


> I hope you get a satisfactory resolution to your problem.
> 
> I am however surprised that running at an obviously high level of motorsport, especially in drag racing, which is without doubt the hardest form of competition on transmission components, and running at the bleeding edge of development of a fairly new car to be used in this genre, you EXPECT a warranty on parts. As someone who has worked in and around motorsport for more years than I care to remember, at up to and including F3 and F3000, I can assure you it is NOT the norm for makers of parts used in a competitive environment to warrant them, or for users to expect a warranty. I have had hugely expensive engines blow to smithereens on the engine dyno on their first power run, and did not expect the builder to do anything more than shrug. In most cases a compromise was reached, but in the cases where the engine were built for "maximum smoke" no one would expect to be held accountable for a failure where the item in question was being pushed to an ultimate high. I feel whatever offer is made in the case of your LSD centre section it should be warmly embraced. If no offer is forthcoming I would not be peeved at all.
> 
> I have a good engine builder friend whose counter back wall is adorned with mangled and shrapnel'ed engine parts. To the side of these he has a clear sign. "Speed costs money, how fast can YOU afford to go?" Such is the nature of competitive motorsport. Kitchen, heat and all that....  Good luck, but at the level you appear to want to operate at I would say you should NOT expect parts to be warranted and to EXPECT parts failures from time to time.


Your opinion and we all have one. 

Read the whole thread and you will see we left a WEAK area to fail so as not to have high cost failures I.E the OEM drive shafts which are acknowledged as being weak. 

Also you missed the point that all we wanted was a failure analysis report to show it was not a faulty part which we did not get.

As is stated the parties are now talking and i would expect an engineers report on the failure so that others can benefit so we know the limits of the product or if there was indeed a problem with the Metallurgy.

I for one cannot believe that you would invest in a product or an engine rebuild and just hold your hands up and say act of God if it blew on the dyno. 

You would want to analyse the failed part to learn for the future. BUT each to there own my friend:wavey:


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I would have to say that I would much rather a failure were contained within the differential case than have a flailing drive shaft whipping about. But rather no failure at all, of course. I see Bentley are to run a Continental GT in a race series. First the Sumo Nissan, now this leviathan from Crewe, plus your recent excellent efforts at seeing how fast one can accelerate another huge beast. They'll be having to extend the run off areas soon  Good luck next season.


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## johnhanton57 (May 2, 2009)

Chris Wilson said:


> I would have to say that I would much rather a failure were contained within the differential case than have a flailing drive shaft whipping about. But rather no failure at all, of course. I see Bentley are to run a Continental GT in a race series. First the Sumo Nissan, now this leviathan from Crewe, plus your recent excellent efforts at seeing how fast one can accelerate another huge beast. They'll be having to extend the run off areas soon  Good luck next season.



Medusa will be fine we have a chute :thumbsup:


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