# aluminium RB26 Block



## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

Did anyone have ever tried to make an aluminium block for the RB26? Is it impossible to make one? wouldn't be much better than the current steel one?
Your thoughts!!


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## WvdB (Aug 26, 2008)

Of course it is possible, but copying inline-6 from cast iron and then make it out of aluminum is not a good idea without improving the structure. Especially when it's high-powered, the torque will just twist and shred the blok into pieces. You'd have to redesign the block and the manufacturing process entirely, and so you'd have to produce hundreds to make it profitable, unless you have an unlimited bag of money.


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Keith Black did it with the hemi V8's for drag racing. All things are possible like this but it depends why you would want to do it. To make it viable you would need to produce more than one. Could you find a market for 5 if you had 6 produced and kept 1 for yourself?


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

You can already buy them in Australia for the RB26 and RB30

Welcome to Bullet Cylinder Heads - bullet products - bullet blocks


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

They are around the $10,000 AUD... I do not think they have made many if any at all.


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## 4jo3 (Oct 1, 2008)

it would be nice to see one in action but 10k is quite a gamble


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Not too badly priced if you ask me (Not that I can afford one!) if you compare to what you would pay for a RRR Block.

If I had won the 28mil in Lotto last week....That would have been on the shopping list


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## 4jo3 (Oct 1, 2008)

i would be sticking with the RRR block for that matter ... althought right now im done with the rb26 blocks ... rb30 ftw


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

4jo3 said:


> i would be sticking with the RRR block for that matter ... althought right now im done with the rb26 blocks ... rb30 ftw


Why would you have a RRR block over a much lighter billet alloy block?....Unless you are looking to make more that a 1000hp, And you can have it in a 4x4 wide bottom RB30 as well.

Weight = The Enemy


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## 4jo3 (Oct 1, 2008)

im looking to make over 1000hp with my stroked rb30 now... i just need fuel, trans, and turbos. i went rb30 because its much cheaper than building a stroked 26. im keeping awd. this year i will prolly put out anywhere in the range of 600-800hp. this year will be breakin as i cant afford to make the power i want safely. the motor is being built now and will be a winter project.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Dont forget to budget the same amount for a gearbox as your rb30 costs to build....


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## 4jo3 (Oct 1, 2008)

yup ... i will be looking at transmission options in the new year. right now im thinking YAG or liberty. i still need to get the specs and do some more research.


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## WvdB (Aug 26, 2008)

Sub Boy said:


> Why would you have a RRR block over a much lighter billet alloy block?....Unless you are looking to make more that a 1000hp, And you can have it in a 4x4 wide bottom RB30 as well.
> 
> Weight = The Enemy


One simple reason. Has it been tested and proven? As far as I know it isn't, so I wouldn't bet on this horse.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

WvdB said:


> One simple reason. Has it been tested and proven? As far as I know it isn't, so I wouldn't bet on this horse.


Well if you know Bullet (But being on the other side of the earth, probably not...But you seem to have an opinion on their products), The things they have built over the years.....I'm sure they wouldn't sell it without extensive testing.


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## SafT (May 20, 2004)

Last I checked they hadnt built any yet. Waiting on an order.

Im waiting on lotto


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

If you are going to all the trouble of changing the block material from iron to aluminium, would you not be better ditching the crappy straight six in favour for a V6?


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Puts one up the spout
Pulls hammer back 
Points at R32 combats foot


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Only to find you fire blanks. PMSL.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Puts one up the spout
> Pulls hammer back
> Points at R32 combats foot


Yup!:chairshot:chairshot

Do some research on the differences in harmonics between a inline 6 compared to a V6....The Inline is always a better motor.

The only advantages the V6 has is size and weight distribution.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Bollox, you can balance a 6 in a V formation as well as a straight.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Shall we agree to disagree....


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## WvdB (Aug 26, 2008)

Sub Boy said:


> Yup!:chairshot:chairshot
> 
> Do some research on the differences in harmonics between a inline 6 compared to a V6....The Inline is always a better motor.
> 
> The only advantages the V6 has is size and weight distribution.


Biggest bullshit i've ever heard :bowdown1:


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## SafT (May 20, 2004)

v6's are naturally unbalanced..

V6 engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

Sub Boy said:


> Yup!:chairshot:chairshot
> 
> Do some research on the differences in harmonics between a inline 6 compared to a V6....The Inline is always a better motor.
> 
> The only advantages the V6 has is size and weight distribution.


Sub Boy is 100% dead on; I6's are much better than V6's in terms of balance and harmonics.

Regarding aluminium block; not sure if it will be much lighter at all. Aluminium is lighter than steel yes but also weaker... you need more matieral to compensate for strength.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

> would you not be better ditching the crappy straight six


When you say "crappy" / Im unsure of what you mean 
Ill ask Reese next time I see him Or Glen or Rob ...

oops or NXTWAT obviously ...


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## WvdB (Aug 26, 2008)

Oh, i thought he meant I's vs V's in general, my bad:flame:

Yes Sub boy is correct about I6 vs V6's in general, but there's just one thing, you can't state that an inline is just a better engine. There are a lot of variables which you have to take into account when a manufacturer chooses either an I-form or a V-formed engine. Above all, technology is improving and has been improved rapidly, there are now tons of ways to reduce or counter the negative harmonic characteristics.


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

I would rather have something engineered right, from the start i.e. I6 instead of engineering around something that is fundamentally poor i.e. V6


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## WvdB (Aug 26, 2008)

Well, open up your eyes and see how society and engineering works in real life. If we would follow your theory we'd still be in the stone ages.

Just get it straight, there is no right or wrong! Ever heard of technology and development?

If you can engineer something the right way from the start, i think you're even smarter than Einstein.

Hence, a lot of manufacturers are using fundamentally poor engines nowadays isn't?


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

WvdB said:


> Hence, a lot of manufacturers are using fundamentally poor engines nowadays isn't?


Yes they are; but they can make them work (balance shafts, etc) engineering around a poor initial design. There are other reasons that influence the decision for a V6... packaging, weight, safety. All of which I do not care too much about! 

Fundamentally an I6 is a "better" engine than a V6. The point can not be argued as it is fact.


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

Its interesting to note that Reece and co went for a alloy V6 in place of the I6 when they had initially intended in using the mighty RB they had been using in the Skyline.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

WvdB said:


> Biggest bullshit i've ever heard :bowdown1:


...Can't of heard a lot then...:flame:

Might pay to do a bit of research before you slag people off.


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## infamous_t (Jul 9, 2007)

WvdB said:


> Hence, a lot of manufacturers are using fundamentally poor engines nowadays isn't?


Like BMW? Oh wait they're still in the stone ages


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

I dont believe Nissan dropped the RB because it was "crappy"
I could be mistaken though ...
I thought the original question was , is there an alloy rb block and would it be any good, not ,can I change the shape of my block ....
I would say something like, real engines dont have pistons ...
I mean that really is stoneage stuff...
Reciprocating action converted to rotary ....
spot the obvious "design" flaw...


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## SafT (May 20, 2004)

down with pistons, up with gas turbines!


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

SafT said:


> v6's are naturally unbalanced..


so are some of the people on here :runaway:

:chuckle:


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

Ooooo, listen to all the spanners out there on their toolboxes.

While the inline six might have the good natural balance, like a flat 6, V8 and V12, there are a number is disadvantages too. But as people only seem to want to 'race' in a straight line, (steering it too involved), then they over look it.

If you were starting from scratch, which making your own block would suggest, and you had room for an I6, then the obvious thing to do would put a V12 in there.

Is a '1/4 mile at a time' RB engine smooth? Can you stand a coin on it's side on the engine without it falling over? 

Does it really matter how 'smooth' you think it is?

The F1 guys get good performance from their V6 engines, and they have to steer their cars.


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## zell (Nov 23, 2007)

Lith said:


> Its interesting to note that Reece and co went for a alloy V6 in place of the I6 when they had initially intended in using the mighty RB they had been using in the Skyline.


Maybe for marketing purposes ?


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## rb30r34 (Jun 30, 2008)

zell said:


> Maybe for marketing purposes ?


What exactly would they be trying to market?


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

R32 Combat said:


> The F1 guys get good performance from their V6 engines, and they have to steer their cars.


When was the last time they were using V6 engines in F1?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Don't knock V6 engines. My N/A V6 linked below, it's 610 BHP, only needs to rev to 6800, and is also available as a turbo charged unit with engine dyno proven, totally reliable 1100 BHP. 

IrfanView HTML-Thumbnails


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

Sub Boy said:


> When was the last time they were using V6 engines in F1?


...and please don't start the comparison between F1 and street/circuit cars!


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Page 1 = on topic posts
Page 2 = the arguing starts
Page 3 = arguing continues, will it pull through and get back on topic?

So then, billet aluminium RB26 block anyone?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Sub Boy said:


> When was the last time they were using V6 engines in F1?



Turbo era of the eighties, for example Honda, TAG (Porsche), Motori Moderni and Ford amongst others, ran V6 engines. They were all 1500 cc. Post then I can't think of any N/A V6 F1 engines.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris Wilson said:


> Turbo era of the eighties, for example Honda, TAG (Porsche), Motori Moderni and Ford amongst others, ran V6 engines. They were all 1500 cc. Post then I can't think of any N/A V6 F1 engines.


Yup, Ages ago.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

B.O.T - i am very interested in this aluminium block

strength would be a concern, would like to see one in practice, running 600whp for race use.. i would be an obliging guinea pig...

what would you reckon the weight saving would be?, 100kgs? 150kgs? more???


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## souroull (Jul 21, 2008)

the iron block only weighs a mere 70 kg, if that


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

> what would you reckon the weight saving would be?, 100kgs? 150kgs? more???


Falls off chair laughing....


Dam I was going to mention tag turno 1500ccv6s, but I didnt want to cloud the discussion

I always thought straight 4's were the best engine to ballance ...
Well, the best compromise I mean
Six's have a long skinny crank with all the "happening" stuff slung off on one plain...
V8s arnt that flash as they have the reciprocating bits not on the same plain, so a flat engine "should" be the best , but isnt ...
Yeah its all pretty straightforward really ...

So, when you can make 1200 + reliable hp from the "1920's tech" IRON block, why would you need an alloy block to make 600hp again ?
I guess the 20kg weigh saving would be worth the 20k investment, but if it was me , I'd take the ac pump and hicas rack off and get the same weight loss gain for free....


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## SklyaFett (Oct 18, 2005)

^^ funny, yet right as usual


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

You've got to laugh at all of this, the same OP has the next thread down from this one and he was originally asking about iron blocks. The same people posting in this thread are posting in that one as well as though it's someone else! As GT-R Glenn has pointed out, the weight saving is not worth the outlay and could be done a lot easier and cheaper elsewhere. Also the potential to make greater power than the standard block will allow isn't proven to be there.

How many more posts before this one burns out or gets locked?


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

ok my question in the begin was about the aluminium block since all the new tech engines are made with aluminium must be a reason not only weight wise but as well for better cooling my thoughts are if could someone make an aluminium block then we could have the benefits of weight, cooling and probably to make an engine with much more bore which will allow us to have much bigger displacements , for example to be able to make close to 90mm bore or more, this is what i had in mind in the first place, because with the current blocks we have the limits, if we had the advantage to make an aluminium block with the rb structure then we could modify to the perfection of our needs and + to have the benefits of weight loss and better cooling. Just imagine a new aluminium block of the rb30 with the maximum best capable bigger bore and much bigger turbo.If someone could manufacture it and prove of it working and selling the block in a reasonable price how many people would buy it?
I was gone be the first customer!! I still dont understand why NISSAN didn't make something like this for the new GTR since they could have big profit from all of the RB fanatics buying it.


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

DrGtr said:


> ok my question in the begin was about the aluminium block since all the new tech engines are made with aluminium must be a reason not only weight wise but as well for better cooling my thoughts are if could someone make an aluminium block then we could have the benefits of weight, cooling and probably to make an engine with much more bore which will allow us to have much bigger displacements , for example to be able to make close to 90mm bore or more, this is what i had in mind in the first place, because with the current blocks we have the limits, if we had the advantage to make an aluminium block with the rb structure then we could modify to the perfection of our needs and + to have the benefits of weight loss and better cooling. Just imagine a new aluminium block of the rb30 with the maximum best capable bigger bore and much bigger turbo.If someone could manufacture it and prove of it working and selling the block in a reasonable price how many people would buy it?
> I was gone be the first customer!! I still dont understand why NISSAN didn't make something like this for the new GTR since they could have big profit from all of the RB fanatics buying it.


Levendi mou; not worth the money for the benefit (of which there is little if any)... no one has bought one for that reason. If I was a millionaire and had the money to waste, I still think I would buy an iron block (RRR). Better off paying for Red R Racing to come to Cyprus to build/tune your car and I will tag along for a holiday!


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

GT-R Glenn said:


> I guess the 20kg weigh saving would be worth the 20k investment, but if it was me , I'd take the ac pump and hicas rack off and get the same weight loss gain for free....


but if they are all long gone would it be worth considering ?


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

mwebster said:


> but if they are all long gone would it be worth considering ?


I will put you on a diet and then give me $10k


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

bigmikespec said:


> I will put you on a diet and then give me $10k


I am afraid that is already in progress as well


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Sub Boy said:


> Yup, Ages ago.



You know how to make an old man feel even older, don't you:


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

DrGtr said:


> ok my question in the begin was about the aluminium block since all the new tech engines are made with aluminium must be a reason not only weight wise but as well for better cooling my thoughts are if could someone make an aluminium block then we could have the benefits of weight, cooling and probably to make an engine with much more bore which will allow us to have much bigger displacements , for example to be able to make close to 90mm bore or more, this is what i had in mind in the first place, because with the current blocks we have the limits, if we had the advantage to make an aluminium block with the rb structure then we could modify to the perfection of our needs and + to have the benefits of weight loss and better cooling. Just imagine a new aluminium block of the rb30 with the maximum best capable bigger bore and much bigger turbo.If someone could manufacture it and prove of it working and selling the block in a reasonable price how many people would buy it?
> I was gone be the first customer!! I still dont understand why NISSAN didn't make something like this for the new GTR since they could have big profit from all of the RB fanatics buying it.


I've started on a 88-90mm bore RB block based on a iron RB30, been slowly working away on it for a while.

If your SERIOUS and have a suitable budget I'd happily build you the worlds first RB35.

Rob


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## SklyaFett (Oct 18, 2005)

now thats an offer i'd love to take up if i had the money. Looks like a 2.8 for me


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

Rob i will wait for the (megalo michali) bigmike to come to Cyprus and give me a hand wile building my rb28 this summer if i ever manage, and by then we will know how your new development goes as i told you if god allows me i will have your first rb30 or rb33 hopefully in Cyprus  and by then i wish we have a track to run our cars there.
So an aluminium block is a bad idea.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris Wilson said:


> You know how to make an old man feel even older, don't you:


LOL! The 80's weren't that long ago....Flock of Seagulls and Duran Duran are still cool! :flame::nervous:


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

so if its not all about weight, and i seem to be miles out here ;-), and i may have missed the point, but what exactly is the "definitive" point of making this block?


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Well it IS about the weight, and I would imagine that if they had a perceived market it might be as a race engine in a different chassis. It seems a tenuous idea though, as the only suitable home I can think of is Sports GT's used in hillclimbing where the straight six N/A BMW engines seem fairly popular in Europe and the US. I can't see many being willing to invest a lot of money in a seemingly prototype block to nail in an old Skyline, myself, particularly given the present economy


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

As far as I could see it is about weight, improved cooling and the ability to have an original 88mm if required without making a weak bore. I would certainly be interested but would want to know a lot more about the material it is to be made from, I am sure it is not plain aluminium.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I'd be concerned about coolant flows, as billet blocks are notoriously difficult to cool for endurance usage, and I see this as more of a drag race engine project, somehow. A casting, although a MUCH bigger investment, allows a lot more flexibility for coolant passages and bulkheads. To make a block in alloy that's as stable under duress from main bearing loads and combustion pressures as a cast iron one, and make it lighter usually involves a lot of expensive research, the only fully tested blocks built on a low key budget (relatively speaking) I have seen in recent years are the Millington Diamond blocks to replace the Ford Pinto / Cossie Sierra iron blocks and give both a weight saving and a potential capacity increase. There's one for sale right now, and they are made just up the road from me :

racecarsdirect.com (Race Cars For Sale) 2.5 litre Millington Diamond MK1


There were of course lots of aftermarket alloy big and small block Chevy castings, starting with the first none GM ones made by Reynolds for Can Am racing.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

If you want a lighter block that is suitably tough why now speak to Rob about fitting a VH41?

Consensus seems to be that the block is lighter. Certainly distribution is better. The VH has VCT and plenty of headroom for power. I'd bet that buildup costs would be similar.


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

whats a VH41?


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

nick the tubman said:


> whats a VH41?


4.1lt Nissan V8


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

So you dont need to paint it ( obviously another weight saving ) ...
A billet block with thick sleeves etc: could be made, without a doubt.
And you could also design out the faults from the iron block...
Ill start a list 
Faults of the iron block that limit 600hp (ok 1500) 






























Dumbleweeds go past ...


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

You could anodise the aluminium block a bright colour, that wasy you can easily see it in the scrap bin.


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## CarCouture (Dec 24, 2005)

*v12*

the only usage for a aluminium block I see would be in a V12 2xRB custom engine. Especially if there is no demand for the regular aluminium RB block on the market and the benefit in weight compared to the iron block is neglectible
a mirrored RB block paired with 2 RB heads would open a complete new ball game.

Just thinking outside the box


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## souroull (Jul 21, 2008)

CarCouture said:


> the only usage for a aluminium block I see would be in a V12 2xRB custom engine. Especially if there is no demand for the regular aluminium RB block on the market and the benefit in weight compared to the iron block is neglectible
> a mirrored RB block paired with 2 RB heads would open a complete new ball game.
> 
> Just thinking outside the box


goo

hm someone is making these kind of things but with hayabusa engines, keep forgetting the name


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

I would not trust a STD block at 700 bhp let alone 1500...anything of ours over 600 we use at least an N1 block for, had too many split not to !

Edit : which IMHO does show it is as much the design as the materials used.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Eh ?
I was saying what wrong with an iron block .. so to be specific an N1 block is an iron block ...
vs an ally one
You're in lalaa land if you think you need a special block (N1) for more than 700hp


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

Glenn you are 100% spot on!


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

I've often wondered about the above, RIPS seems to be pushing RB30 blocks up to silly 4 digit power levels yet people keep implying that 800hp is no mans land in terms of a supposedly superior RB26 block. 

What gives on them?


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

souroull said:


> goo
> 
> hm someone is making these kind of things but with hayabusa engines, keep forgetting the name


Powertec (Radical) make some as do at least another US based company.

Sounded rather good being blasted down the Mulsanne


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## TAZZMAXX (Mar 9, 2010)

Lith said:


> I've often wondered about the above, RIPS seems to be pushing RB30 blocks up to silly 4 digit power levels yet people keep implying that 800hp is no mans land in terms of a supposedly superior RB26 block.
> 
> What gives on them?


Maybe that the RB30 may have had more humble beginnings but is ultimately stronger and better suited to high power applications?

It all depends on what other mods are required to achieve the big numbers. I don't quite understand the mentality of trying to squeeze the absolute maximum from a given capacity. Yes, we all know it can be done but the greater the output, the lower the reliability is in relative terms. There wouldn't appear to be a great difference between RB26 and RB30 blocks but there obviously is and this is what RIPS must capitalize on.

If Nissan knew then what they know today, I think it unlikely they would pursue developing an engine such as the RB26. They probably laugh at people extracting so much power out of what is essentially a truck engine.


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## Lith (Oct 5, 2006)

2.6litres was chosen due to race class regs, despite heaps of people thinking its some magical superior engineering reason - 3litres is definitely better but I'm not totally sure how block strength is affected by literage. The best I could think of is the higher RPM people with 2.6s tend to rely on to make the power with a useful powerband.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

> hm someone is making these kind of things but with hayabusa engines, keep forgetting the name


Not uncommon
The blocks and cranks were made 5 minutes down the road from where I live, In the workshop I use for my stuff.

Shameless plug for Waiuku

These arnt GXSR1300's but the same concept
Synergy Racing takes on the Chili Bowl - Synergypower.co.nz


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## Piggaz (Sep 5, 2002)

R.I.P.S NZ said:


> If your SERIOUS and have a suitable budget I'd happily build you the worlds first RB35.
> 
> Rob


You'd want to get a wriggle on then....Someone else *might* beat you to it!


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Piggaz said:


> You'd want to get a wriggle on then....Someone else *might* beat you to it!


Yeah yeah, lol, heard it all before when I did the RB33 and all I ever heard was about blow ups and endless problems if its who I'm thinking of.

No dought plenty of people "could" do a RB35 with a suitable budget, when its actually happened and been reliable for more than 5 minutes I'll be the first to congradulate who ever it is.

Rob


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

TAZZMAXX said:


> There wouldn't appear to be a great difference between RB26 and RB30 blocks but there obviously is and this is what RIPS must capitalize on.


If thats the case I sure don't know about it, lol. The 30s are just better for a number of reasons and the block material or design being quite different from a 26 arn't either of them.

I'm pretty sure we'd be able to get a stock crank, non N1 blocked 26 pulling big power and rpm with plenty of reliability as I'm pretty confident "most" of the issues some people experience come about from poor machining, poor parts selection, poor assembly, poor set up and/or poor tuning, I dought the blocks themselves are the problem is most cases.

Rob


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

GT-R Glenn said:


> Eh ?
> I was saying what wrong with an iron block .. so to be specific an N1 block is an iron block ...
> vs an ally one
> You're in lalaa land if you think you need a special block (N1) for more than 700hp


I was suggesting that an one iron block is not equal to another. so you cant just compare Iron Vs ally.

Totally disagree on the STD blocks, I have had many blocks fail at 660 - 800 whp cracked on the outside and inside. As with a lot of skyline engines if you only run them for pure UK road use or for 10 - 12 seconds at a time you can get away with a lot, it is when you really start to stress them this kind of weakness shows. The cracked blocks include R32 and R33 blocks lined and not lined. This is my experience so for the cost I would never run a std block in anything over 600whp. We even had one R33 block crack on the outside with only 400bhp, to be fair this was track whore and was punished day after day and it did take time but it still went in the end. 

There is nothing specific wrong with an iron block but you can have some custom work done with this type of ally blocks, high deck , 88 mm bore with no loss of strength etc as well as 20kg off the very front of the car giving you more than just 20kg less overall weight.


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

mwebster said:


> Totally disagree on the STD blocks, I have had many blocks fail at 660 - 800 whp cracked on the outside and inside. As with a lot of skyline engines if you only run them for pure UK road use or for 10 - 12 seconds at a time you can get away with a lot, it is when you really start to stress them this kind of weakness shows. The cracked blocks include R32 and R33 blocks lined and not lined. This is my experience so for the cost I would never run a std block in anything over 600whp. We even had one R33 block crack on the outside with only 400bhp, to be fair this was track whore and was punished day after day and it did take time but it still went in the end.


I don't dought what your saying is true, buy WHY do you think they are failing? Whats happening to them to cause the cracks and where have they cracked?, when you "really start to stress them" what exactly are you doing to them and for how long?


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

The failures are 

Cylinder liners cracks, and external water jacket cracks.

The engines are mainly tracked or raced, and since we have turned to N1 blocks we have had no further issues.

using the extreme example, the approx 400bhp unit was a STD R33 block with a std nissan crank ,eagle rods forged pistons all fully balanced to 0 on each individual component. It had a std head running std turbos and .9 bar boost, N1 oil and water pump. The cooling was uprated to ensure sub 100 water temps and it never ran past 120 oil temps . This car was tracked hard(driven correctly not on the limiter all the time) but warmed gently before and cooled after every session. This block cracked externally allowing water to leak out. The engine always ran smooth as silk even after the block failure.

the bore cracks have all been on higher power 660+ @ wheels and they split top to bottom of a random cylinder. think we have had 3 of those over the years. no other visible damage to the engine when inspected.

Edit: Rob what do you do about the lack of piston oil sprays on your RB30's ?


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## Corsa1 (Sep 8, 2003)

something is not right to cause that where does the crack start?


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> something is not right to cause that where does the crack start?


Hi Andy,
the cracks in the 400 bhp block went firstly in the normal place the blocks go porous on the side just below a lug and the others head along the side of the block front to back , they only seep water but still leak enough to scrap the block , it could just be a faulty casting but I have had go them under the lug a couple of times but this one actually cracked. 

The split bores could be a combination of things and are open to debate as to cause BUT I have not suffered with this either since switching to N1 or RRR blocks.









On the basis of my experience I will not run a std block with big power and would advise others to take the same track, but people can draw there own conclusions and take the path they feel suits them best.

Anyway better let this thread get back on track , if you guys would like to continue the discussion i will start us a new thread on the subject.

M


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## nick the tubman (Jun 28, 2006)

i for one would like to know more about these cracked block issues Marcus....
i was thinking of upping my power to 700atf. is that still in your "safe zone"?
pls start another thread...

and Rob, an RB35? i might be interested :thumbsup:


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

nick the tubman said:


> i for one would like to know more about these cracked block issues Marcus....


I'd like to know more about these block issues too, interesting subject. 

Do you think this could be because they're being used for track use rather than a quick/short 1/4 mile type event ? Could it be caused by stresses created by cornering and the fact that the block has to support the weight of the sump as well as cope with the forces created by having the front differential mounted in the sump ?


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

mwebster said:


> the bore cracks have all been on higher power 660+ @ wheels and they split top to bottom of a random cylinder. think we have had 3 of those over the years. no other visible damage to the engine when inspected.


tip toeing very carefully here and just discussing.......A failier like that at quite low power levels "could" be tune related, is it "possible" that there's been something happening that the stock block couldn't quite cope with but the N1s have been able to cope with?

As an example, lots of people crack ring lands on stock pistons, it happens for a reason, yet we have had several motors with stock pistons run 600-700 even 800hp+ with no issues.

The same people that crack stock pistons presume its a piston problem, or have been told they NEED forged pistons, change to forged and quite often have no further issues, that doesn't mean how ever their original setup/tune was correct, it might have been "just" out enough to hurt the stock parts and the forged pistons are more tollerant to light levels of DET etc.



mwebster said:


> Edit: Rob what do you do about the lack of piston oil sprays on your RB30's ?


Nothing, never used squirters (even in track motors) and after years and massive miles pistons have come out with mint skirts and mint crowns.

Rob


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Oil squirters are not for increased bore wall and piston skirt oiling, any engine is a maelstrom of oil inside of the crankcase, even dry sump ones, there's certainly no shortage of oil splash on the bore walls! Oil squirters are for the specific task of taking conducted heat away from the crown by directing a jet of oil onto, or with hollow crown pistons, into, the piston at its hottest part. I think rather than saying you haven't seen an issue with skirt wear or pick up, you should be saying that combustion temperatures in these engines are such that you have not needed extra piston crown cooling with the mapping and loading you are using. Theoretically you should be able to run the engine harder, with a more aggressive map, that may also improve efficiency, if you can reduce piston crown temperatures with extra cooling. Quite how BIG a difference it would make on an engine I am not sure, but most turbo race engines seem to run squirters, and some go to great lengths to use hollow crown pistons, that, in none cast form, yet retaining lightness as a big criteria, are VERY expensive to produce. Interesting thread


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Correct, I added mint crowns to my post and should have said, mint pistons in general first time round.

In any case, for what we have done so far we have never had a problem with pistons or had any indication we need extra piston cooling.

Rob


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Im not disagreeing but it went from anything over 700hp to


> Totally disagree on the STD blocks, I have had many blocks fail at 660 - 800 whp cracked on the outside and inside.





> Cylinder liners cracks, and external water jacket cracks


Iron RB blocks dont have liners / unless you stuck them in ....

Someone must be doing something right , how do you explain all the high power endurance racing RB powered cars ...
Iron block (lets face it there wasnt an alternative) engines making high power for a long time ....
Im not really that intersted in drag racing, so most of what I see, is track or tarmac rally stuff.
So the "odd" 9 sec run once a month isnt always the case.
Im not saying you cant split a block, I used to think anything over 800hp at the crank and you needed an N1 block, but there have been lots of example where this isnt the case.

I would be failry confident of using an N1 block RB an running a 6 hour with 800hp at the wheels ...


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## R.I.P.S NZ (May 7, 2004)

Its a little hard to tell from the picture he posted if it has liners or not, I presume not though.


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## GT-R Glenn (Nov 9, 2002)

Im not saying all iron blocks are bulletproof, Im just saying sure some fail, but theres a lot more that dont.
Its a bit like saying "all standard oil pumps fail" to me....
Or to be extreme , the old "my mate had a holden once and it blew up, therefore all holdens are crap" ....
nb poms insert / vauxhall or ford etc:

So again, most of the aftermarket billet blocks I can think of are to engineer out the shortcomings of the factory oem block.
The Sr20 billet springs to mind.
Im not saying you couldnt make an RB 26 / or 30 better,(RB34) Im just saying it would only have a use in extreme conditions and based on what has and can be done with the oem blocks including the n1 , as thats a standard iron block, it would have a very very limited market.
When all the historical endurance cars and the world record holding drag cars run an iron factory block, again....apart from the 20kg weigh saving (which may well not be 20kg) if its twice as thick in most places and still has to run 8mm wall section liners etc: ....
Exactly what use would it be...


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## mwebster (Aug 18, 2005)

I have created the new thread for the cracked STD block issue, although it is most likely the subject is about closed

http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/144199-cracked-blocks-ally-block-thread.html


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Sub Boy said:


> When was the last time they were using V6 engines in F1?


In 2014, last time they used it was back in 1988. :chuckle:

Interesting thread though some good discussions took place!


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

FRRACER said:


> In 2014, last time they used it was back in 1988. :chuckle:
> 
> Interesting thread though some good discussions took place!


Obviously my crystal ball batteries were flat and I didn't see far enough into the future to see V6's happening again.

.....except this time around they sound like sh1t!


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I agree they sound worse than the old 1.5v6 turbos. Those things back then were running 5 bar of boost and making 1300-1500bhp in qualy trim.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I am not an F1 fan these days, but at least running turbos as opposed to the development restricted N/A's there should be some feedback into road car engine turbo technology and control strategies. I have no interest in that sap to the Greens, KERS. It is interesting to see a fuel flow (consumption per second) sensor now in use to give incentive to some semblance of fuel economy. Sad they felt obliged to make it appear a new concept when Keith Duckworth mooted this as the fairest engine control possible back in the late seventies. 

As an aside things seem depressingly bad for Michael Schumacher, his condition sounds effectively irreversible after so much time has passed. It must be terrible for his family and friends.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Very sad situation, has there been further updates on his condition?

BTW Chris you have a PM.


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I did reply to that earlier, and have tried again just now, for some reason sending a PM reply appears to hang. I have duplicated it here, excuse the bandwidth please folks!



Re: Head porting
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRRACER

Photos of my head porting at:


http://www.chriswilson.tv/RB26_Skyline_Race_Engine_Pics/head/rb26.html

Other trivia at:



http://www.chriswilson.tv/RB26_Skyline_Race_Engine_Pics/bottom/rb26.html

http://www.chriswilson.tv/RB26_Skyline_Race_Engine_Pics/drain/rb26.html

I never modded any water or oil *supply* passages in my head and it has no cooling or oiling issues. I did fit a drain where the rear core plug was, and drain to an adaptor welded on the front RH side of the sump. That works fine, although I custom made all the stuff and it would be costly to duplicate. My sump is a converted GTR one, but used in the GTS-t that I run, as I wanted a 2WD car. I think there are still some videos of it on YouTube, look at user name ChrisWilson5006 Maybe they are still there? Car runs a Swedish Traktive sequential box, home brew suspension, and A Motec M800 management. Diff is OS Giken with custom settings.


I would be wary of spending a lot on any head casting that you even suspected of being porous or cracked. Do you know how the leakage test was done? Most places do it WRONG!!


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I got that reply in the end thanks Chris


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

FRRACER said:


> I got that reply in the end thanks Chris


OK, great. Do you still have the FR? Do you race or hill climb it? A friend has a mint FR, Nick Skidmore, he sells a lot of rod ends and spherical bearings, nice chap. Uses it for sprints and hillclimbs, lives just up the road from me, relatively speaking considering I'm out in the sticks. And yes, that's really his surname


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I bought some bits of mr Skidmore few years back yeah still have the FR, updated the aero to Barc spec over the winter just a few more bits off fittings and brackets to buy before it is all done. Ask him if he is interested in some body panels as I have loads from 2004-2006 unless he has a stock already


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I think we should get back on topic with the thread now


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

I guess the ali block RB26 thread has run its course. I'll mention them to Nick if I see him, cheers.


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

2014 and nobody have produce one. I don't think that it will ever be one.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

DrGtr said:


> 2014 and nobody have produce one. I don't think that it will ever be one.


Bullet Cylinder Heads in Australia have a jig for them, and will build one to order for you, the way the water jacket is machined in it will require an electric or outboard mech water pump, but other than that, should be sweet!
....... I heard a figure of about $10,000 for one.

http://www.bulletcylinderheads.com.au/bullet_components/?ids=9


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Not sure why you want an aluminium block when for most of the N1 would work just fine or even if you can find a RRR.

Hardcore Custom Engines: A Look At Dart’s Billet Blocks And Heads - EngineLabs

Billet Blocks - Engine Blocks


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

Because it should be a fair bit lighter.


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

EF Ian said:


> Because it should be a fair bit lighter.


Probably not, it can however be designed stronger and more rigid.


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

Why not, surely Alloy is lighter than the really heavy cast iron standard block?

That's why the 5L V10 M5 engine actually weighs less than an RB26.


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## DrGtr (Jul 18, 2009)

FRRACER said:


> Not sure why you want an aluminium block when for most of the N1 would work just fine or even if you can find a RRR.
> 
> Hardcore Custom Engines: A Look At Dart’s Billet Blocks And Heads - EngineLabs
> 
> Billet Blocks - Engine Blocks


I do have the n1. The only reason to make it aluminium is to be lighter with much bigger bore than standard so I can have bigger capacity and better center of gravity and lighter just only the block is more than 50kg by it self.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

bigmikespec said:


> Probably not, it can however be designed stronger and more rigid.


I believe that the ali versions of the Jag straight sixes are a good bit lighter than the original iron blocks.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

DrGtr said:


> I do have the n1. The only reason to make it aluminium is to be lighter with much bigger bore than standard so I can have bigger capacity and better center of gravity and lighter just only the block is more than 50kg by it self.


You could have something closer to the RB30 block and gain a load of stroke too.

A 3.4 ali RB which weighed a bit less than a stock RB26 would be vey nice. Teamed with some variable vane turbos and the V-CAM and you'd have an empty bank account (or at least I would). :thumbsup:


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## K66 SKY (Jan 25, 2005)

Cris said:


> *I believe that the ali versions of the Jag straight sixes are a good bit lighter than the original iron blocks.*


And who hasn't heard of the lack of compression horror stories about Jag's or BMW's alloy lumps when their Nikasil liners wore out....:nervous:


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

So make sure it has good liners then. Never had any problems with the liners on any of my B series engines.


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## bigmikespec (Sep 5, 2008)

EF Ian said:


> Why not, surely Alloy is lighter than the really heavy cast iron standard block?
> 
> That's why the 5L V10 M5 engine actually weighs less than an RB26.


Aluminium is lighter but basic grades are weaker so to obtain the same strength higher grade aluminium is required as is optimisation of the block design. Not as simple as a machined billet of alumnium copying the RB26 block.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Cris said:


> You could have something closer to the RB30 block and gain a load of stroke too.
> 
> A 3.4 ali RB which weighed a bit less than a stock RB26 would be vey nice. Teamed with some variable vane turbos and the V-CAM and you'd have an empty bank account (or at least I would). :thumbsup:


By the time you have spent money on that you can easily buy an Audi V10 engine and do that up. I read an article about some guy in Germany was using a V10 as a base for his Nissan 350Z.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

FRRACER said:


> By the time you have spent money on that you can easily buy an Audi V10 engine and do that up. I read an article about some guy in Germany was using a V10 as a base for his Nissan 350Z.


Which is why no-one (AFAIK) has done it. Personally I'd go down the VH route if I wanted to spend lots of money. They already have ali blocks.

Back in fantasy lane why limit yourself to boring things like Lambo/Audi V10s. How about a 6 rotor ****el - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3t3VcEIB-Q#t=41

If I get my big fixing hammer out I reckon it could fit in the enginebay. Of course I'd want a few turbos strapped on there.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

I would got for a V10 sound wise they are amazing, but the S85 V10 is also another engine with good spec and tuning potential.

BMW M5 M6 E60 E61 E63 E64 S85 (04-12) V10 ENGINE MOTOR 83K 500 HP CLEAN!!! | eBay

5.0 Litre V10 engine, 90 degree bank angle, 507 hp (378 kW) @ 7750rpm/520 N·m (384 lb·ft) torque @ 6100rpm
Cast aluminum block with bed plate design split at the crankshaft axis.
Cast aluminum heads with four valves per cylinder and CNC machined ports and combustion chambers. Valves are actuated through non-rotating inverted bucket cam followers.
Oil-cooled, forged aluminum pistons from Mahle Motorsport
Forged steel crankshaft with counterweights, shared crankpins producing an uneven firing interval of 90 or 54 degrees.
Double VANOS system which varies both intake and exhaust cam phasing
10 individual electronically controlled throttle butterflies
Knock sensors have been eliminated by utilizing the "ionic current" measuring system. Using the ionic current system, engine misfires as well as knock can be measured simultaneously. The ionic current is measured by passing a low voltage across the spark plugs immediately following the ignition spark.
Quasi-dry sump lubricating system
The firing order for the S85 engine is 1-6-5-10-2-7-3-8-4-9


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

FRRACER said:


> I would got for a V10 sound wise they are amazing, but the S85 V10 is also another engine with good spec and tuning potential.
> 
> BMW M5 M6 E60 E61 E63 E64 S85 (04-12) V10 ENGINE MOTOR 83K 500 HP CLEAN!!! | eBay
> 
> ...


For me the six rotor is the king of noise. Hearing the (only 4 rotor) 787B blast round Le Mans was enough to convince me!

I do like that BMW V10. I read about one of the Driftworks guys having one dropped into his e46 M3. That would be an M3 I would very much like to have.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

Heard the rotary 6 was ok, but the v10 still sounds better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWsRXRMdeho


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

When I bought my 260Z the original plan was to put an S85 in it, not the RB26, because I've always loved V10's and to me no engine sounds better. But they are very expensive to swap with, complicated electronics, the ECU and custom wiring needed on their own would have been over £4K and that's before the fabrication required to fit it,


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

FRRACER said:


> Heard the rotary 6 was ok, but the v10 still sounds better
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWsRXRMdeho


I'll certainly agree that that is the second best road car engine that BMW have made. I'd even consider buying an M5 just to get the engine. They seem to be marching toward the £10k bracket. If only they had a manual option.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

EF Ian said:


> When I bought my 260Z the original plan was to put an S85 in it, not the RB26, because I've always loved V10's and to me no engine sounds better. But they are very expensive to swap with, complicated electronics, the ECU and custom wiring needed on their own would have been over £4K and that's before the fabrication required to fit it,


I'd have thought that the v10 from the older Audi s6 would be more viable. Not quite as nice as the BMW unit but I will bet cheaper to actually utilise.


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

Cris said:


> I'll certainly agree that that is the second best road car engine that BMW have made. I'd even consider buying an M5 just to get the engine. They seem to be marching toward the £10k bracket. If only they had a manual option.


There is a manual option, some US cars came with a manual gearbox, get one of these or use a E92 M3 6 speed Gearbox (S65 V8)(Also need M5 release bearing and clutch fork from the U.S six speed manual M5) 







Cris said:


> I'd have thought that the v10 from the older Audi s6 would be more viable. Not quite as nice as the BMW unit but I will bet cheaper to actually utilise.


You also need to think about the gearbox, Audi are either FWD or 4WD, so there won't be a RWD gearbox for this engine.


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## Cris (Sep 17, 2007)

EF Ian said:


> There is a manual option, some US cars came with a manual gearbox, get one of these or use a E92 M3 6 speed Gearbox (S65 V8)(Also need M5 release bearing and clutch fork from the U.S six speed manual M5)
> 
> You also need to think about the gearbox, Audi are either FWD or 4WD, so there won't be a RWD gearbox for this engine.


I'm aware of the US cars. Sounds like to much hard work to import a gearbox and then figure out the electronics. For me I'd just buy a different car.

Plenty of guys in the US have put VAG engines in front engine RWD platforms. I've been told that the longitudinal engines have a common bell housing. I think that the transmission of choice are Porsche transaxles. I'd imagine that that would be easier than the BMW option cost wise. I believe that the Porsche transaxles are a known quantity in the specialist car world. They may be other solutions too not sure.

If your into weird engines have a look at the Toyota v12. I read about Top Secret popping one in a Supra with a couple of turbos. It set my mind thinking that it would probably fit in an IS200...


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

If I do another project when my RB26 260Z is finished it will be the S85 into an E30 M3. I'm not worried about the complexity, I like a challenge and I'll keep the cost down my doing most of it myself, it would be a slow build as I'll have my two other cars to keep me amused. I didn't want the Z to take too long as I couldn't wait to get driving it.


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## FRRACER (Jun 23, 2013)

EF Ian said:


> There is a manual option, some US cars came with a manual gearbox, get one of these or use a E92 M3 6 speed Gearbox (S65 V8)(Also need M5 release bearing and clutch fork from the U.S six speed manual M5)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But there is an Audi R8 transaxle available which I am sure could be modded for rwd use. the FIA GT Lambos run rwd.


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## EF Ian (Jan 11, 2013)

The R8's not RWD and it is also Mid Engined so the so the gearbox from that isn't going to be much use.

It would probably be easy to make it RWD, but only if the engine was mounted in the middle of your intended car.


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## Sub Boy (Jan 28, 2008)

Cris said:


> For me the six rotor is the king of noise. Hearing the (only 4 rotor) 787B blast round Le Mans was enough to convince me!
> 
> I do like that BMW V10. I read about one of the Driftworks guys having one dropped into his e46 M3. That would be an M3 I would very much like to have.


The six rotor is another cool bit of Kiwi ingenuity! :smokin:
I saw/heard it go at World Time Attack last year in Sydney.......it sounds amazing in real life, sounds like a GP engine (not the new turbo ones! uke
.....but as far as engine goes, I would love to have a play with the V10 out of the Toyota LFA, for a pure street car engine, it is awesome


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