# Setting the record straight.



## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I feel I have no choice but to put all this out in the open so that people can be assured that these are the facts, as I have nothing to hide.

I am fed up with making excuses, trying to be politically sensitive and having to answer questions about my car from people. So here goes. My sincerest apologies if this seems like Im being hypocritical and doing my laundry in public, but I think if I say this once, out loud, then it will be seen that I am not trying to cover anything up or saying x and meaning y. Chinese whispers are pi$$ing me right off at the moment.  Some people on here know pretty much some or all of this anyway and will confirm this is the truth.

Here goes.

I bought my R34 last year on 22nd February. I bought it via Nemesis as it was a customers car who needed cash fast and decided to sell it very cheaply. I also had to settle his repair bill with them for work they had done when the car had gone wrong the previous august. I was told that the guy had exhaust wheel failure on one turbo when he was in France, and that they had put on new HKS2530's at his request. What they did not tell me at the time, and gradually it came out over the next few months was that actually they were 2510's, and that they werent new they were second hand from Middlehursts. This didnt matter except that they had also not bothered to take the head off or even bore scope the engine after the failure to make sure the internals were ok. "It wouldnt be a problem as we found the exhaust wheel in the backbox" they said.

The car also had a missfire when running at high rpms (by high I mean more than 6000, not more than 8000 which I have never ever taken the car to on purpose) which they said was most likely due to the standard ecu not controlling the new bigger turbos properly. I bought a nice new HKS EVC5 and I ended up roaring up and down the motorway at 140mph trying to set the thing up with them (as they had never seen one before and couldnt work out what the instructions were telling them to do). This certainly made the car more responsive  lol, and also seemed to get rid of most the higher speed missing. I then went to the TSC top speed day at Woodbridge that weekend and on my first run at 150mph the engine melted two pistons and I watched as several thousand pounds went out the exhaust. I was fairly and squarely blamed for the failure for running my car (at no more speed than I had done on the highway already with them in it) at a "race day" and was told "thats racing for you". I mean the car was only one mile into "the race" in a straight line ffs. When we finally got the engine to pieces and after much posturing by them it emerged that maybe it would have been a good idea if they had checked the engine last time as there was clear evidence of turbo blade damage on the piston squish area and the BACK of the exhaust valves when the last owner had obviously let off when the turbo went pop. Even so this still only managed to get me a partial discount on the rebuild as opposed to a warrantied repair despite me having actually paid for it when I bought the car.

I decided that if the engine was coming out, it would be best if it only came out once (how little did I know   )and I borrowed some money and bought a bunch of uprated parts for the rebuild. I also bought some Ross forged pistons that had been knocking around from the days of Dragon Autosport (most of Nemesis's staff were from dragon) still new in thier box but effectively second hand. I got in touch with Ross to check bore tolerences and so on to give to Nemesis, and they got on with the rebuild. When the car came back - in June, 3months later - it was smoking heavily, but I was told this was just residue from the blow up burning out the exhaust. After 600 miles and 5 litres of mineral oil (never revved over 3000rpms) it was still smoking badly and they suggested trying the proper Millers race oil and put in new HKS plugs. This resulted in the car letting me down in London almost immediately and fouling the plugs. We put the standard ones back in, and still she smoked, by now it was 1000miles and I was told I could use more revs ( 4000rpms with 0.5bar boost ) gently and to carry on. At 1500miles it was still smoking and using loads of oil, and by now they said try using it harder to bed the rings in more (we'll come back to the rings in a mo). So now I was using 0.6bar and 5000rpms and burning oil regularly every time I checked it - pretty much every day - and I was getting seriously pi$$ed off. They said it could be the turbos, but when I took it down to see Mark at Abbeys he checked the turbos for me and said they were fine, he did notice that they had managed to wire the boost controller in wrongly leaving the boost solenoid in line which explained why sometimes there was zero boost and sometimes it would whizz round to almost 1bar  depending on its mood.

Now one of the things that happened with the rebuild is the pistons came with "Total Seal piston rings", these are effectively two half thickness rings which allow the ring gap to be 180degrees from each other giving a total seal - ie there is no ring gap effectively. Nemesis hadnt used them before, and there was confusion as to whether or not there had been instructions in the box with the pistons (dont ask !). My view on this is that if you are given something new to work with that you are not experienced on you ring up or ask and find out about them. Nemesis's view was that a ring is a ring and they just used them as normal.

Finally after 2800miles, 30 litres of oil and several more excuses ..."The race oil is thinner, so its bound to burn off easier" "XYZ tuner have had trouble with these rings, you just need to bed them in harder" "ZXY tuner has told me that he didnt get it to stop smoking til 2400miles so just keep trying".....I gave up and said the engine was not right, it didnt sound right and it just didnt have any spark or life and was generally not good. They agreed to take it out and have a look. What they found was a nightmare. Basically the bore tolerences that Ross had recommended were more suitable for a lazy yank V8 rather than a high revving turbo straight six, and worst of all that the "Total Seal" rings had effectively turned my engine into an oil pump and sucked all the oil out of the sump, trapped it in the head, and then blown it out the rear turbo and the exhaust. My block was cracked in three places, one cylinder had seized and been forced to free itself "sawing" up the bore as it did it, the bottom end had effectively been running almost oil-less for 2800 miles and didnt look happy and the turbos were shagged from spinning whilst so heavily pressured from the oil. Basically everything in the engine bay was scrap except for the sump and the cam covers. So much for that £10000 rebuild.

Again I was offered a reduced price rebuild and parts at cost by way of compensation, and this time I decided to use "proper named parts" so it was gonna get fixed right. Gosnay Engineering in London was employed by Nemesis to get it right this time, and off we went on another merry go round !! To be fair this rebuild went perfectly, and I was pleased with the results when it came back in December - 5months this time !! - although the costs had grown by quite some margin, despite my "deal" the overall costing about £15000. Then there was the new ecu, mapping, afms and other bills from Abbey and others taking the grand total to almost £20k. I was just pleased I wasnt paying full price   

Things were rosey in my life now, the car had dumbfounded Dan at Abbeys with its results for little old 2530's and generally I had what I had always dreamed of - a 550+ Bayside34 - and I took it to a few shows and things. Fair enough it occasionally gargled a few quid - clutch £1700, brakes etc !! - but it was good.

I was due to go to Assen in Holland on May 16th and a couple of weeks before I came round a bend, put my foot down and the boost went mad and shot round to 1.8bar - I only run the car at 1.35-1.4bar max as the injectors were maxxing out - which fortunately happened to be in second gear and didnt do anything on the PowerFC hand controllers det monitor. Turns out a pipe had fell off the front actuator, which Nemesis sorted out immediately for me. Anyways I went to Holland and ran in 1.8th mile sprints, which I found very nerve racking as I had trouble with getting the launches right and so on, but on about run number 5 or 6 as I slowed down to 20mph and blipped the throttle to put it in 1st gear i heard the dreaded death rattle, a sound I will never forget, and was totally heart broken at the fact that my lovely car had stabbed me again and had run the bottom end. Kindly the guys in holland trailored the car to the ferry, and at the port everyone was really helpful (never been pushed down the off ramp before, or waved straight through customs !! lol). The initial phone call to Nemesis didnt go quite how I had hoped...them - "What do you want us to do about it??"...me - "Errr meet me at the ferry with a trailor would be a start"....them - "I dont know about that, I'll see what I can do".

When we got the car back to Nemesis they immediately said "Its ok, you have a warranty with Gosnays dont you??" to which I replied "I have never paid Adrian or Gosnay a penny, but I have paid you guys lots of money so surely my warranty is with you". "Oh errm, no, the rebuild came with a warranty from Gosnay, so we will talk to them and see what we can find out." Basically they wanted to hoodwink Gosnay into paying for the rebuild even though it transpired the boost pipe had come off again at the exact time I launched. They say that there is no way running 1.9bar boost could contribute to nipping a shell, and indeed several tuners I have spoken to have all said that the bottom shell of number1 cylinder is very vulnerable to oil surge. Either way Nemesis refused to pay, preferring to leave it to Gosnays to sort out. I didnt want to get involved, I just wanted my car sorting out. I pointed out that I had only done a miximum of half a dozen runs, had paused between each run to get temps down, and was only running 1.2bar to be safe but none of this mattered "racing is racing" came back the reply. The fact I drive the car harder than that on the road doesnt matter. Ron Kiddell managed to stick his nose in the middle of all this as he is friends with Gosnays and stirred it up a bit and at the end of the day it was yours truly who ended up facing another bill for £6k. In fact by the time certain other bits were done the bill was closer to £8k.

At this point I had had enough. The car was fixed to the same high standard as before, but I had lost confidence, every little creak made me paranoid something was going wrong and basically I had no joy from my very expensive ornament. I decided to sell the car. I had one messer as some of you know, who I am persuing legally as he got me to buy and fit certain extra parts that cost alot of money and then dropped out the sale, but finally a really top bloke called Steve bought the car. I told him this story, and showed him the bills and he was dead chuffed to be able to own a tuned R34GTR which is what he really wanted. He has already spent a small fortune on Volk rims, Tein suspension and tons of satnav/audio, and I dare say it will be at shows next year.

Trouble is its gone bang, again !!! And hence the reason i am writing this.

You see I have been told that the refresh has not been done as well as you may think, certain bits are blatantly wrong, and also that there are chinese whispers going around about me running the car at 2bar (presumably thanks to RonK again, cos he cant keep his nose out, like many other Skyline tuners in the UK) and a buyer having the car for sale or return for a week. I have never run the car at 2bar, it ran 1.9 for about two 1.5 second bursts at a guess, and the mystery buyer was Steve as he paid me with a bankers draft and I didnt want to say he had definately bought it in case there was a problem with payment and I then couldnt get the car back.

All in all a pretty sorry story, and one that should make people think twice before just trusting anyone in the tuning world.

I am totally gutted for Steve, and was sure that my curse with the car would not continue to its new owner.

Sorry this is so long winded, but its all the facts with nothing left out. You can wake up now !!

J.


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## R32 Combat (Jan 29, 2004)

A long read there. I really feel for you, sounds like someone 'upstairs' didn't want you to have a working skyline.
Life can be cruel..


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## jameswrx (Jul 27, 2003)

Thats fookin terrible mate.

Best thing to do is a complete engine swap, take the old one out, dig a hole and lay it to rest


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

bl**dy hell, as a relative newbie i have just s**t myself, sorry to hear of all this aggro j, seems like your/car problems have been compounded by 'others' there seems to be a lot of that type of thing on here i'm not sure if it is just a skyline thing, but i have never come across it before, i do hope it gets sorted, it's not much of a conslation but imagine if the yank had brought it, as before sorry to hear of the aggro


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## alex h (Mar 11, 2002)

Hey Bladey, 

Me and U fell out over Nemisis in the past...hope you now appreciate my views on them. And hope the new owner gets it sorted soon.


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Forum Views*

James,

I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. If you'd have taken it to someone who knows how to build GTR engines I am sure you'd have been OK or limited your bad experience. Trouble is, cheap parts and a good deal are not always best and you have paid the price my friend. If you want to play with big numbers, they dont come easy or cheap and you have now become a master to teach this lesson to others.

Probably best if you hit the search button and go back to edit all your posts of preaching and fact straightening about the exploits of tuning your car 

Sorry to revell in your misfortune but everyone apart from you could have told you this story prior to a spanner being turned on day one, its not a Nemesis thing, its a Skyline engine thing. As for them not accepting the blame, damned right, this is a prime example of people spending lots of money on something they think should last forever due to the cost. You got a race engine, you raced it and it broke. Are they supposed to warranty it for life?

You came on here before, say im gonna do this to my block and that to my engine, its not been done like that before etc etc, well, what was the point, why try 'out of the ordinary' when tried and tested works quite adequately and then - you will later cry about it when it all falls to pieces!

Nemesis are certainly not business allies of us at all but from what you have posted I would agree with thier response. You have obviously along the way become too friendly with them and now think that they should be doing out of the ordinary things for you such as drop everything and rush to the port to collect your car as it was broken. You are a customer, you spent money with them for what you wanted and unless you sucked thier d1cks at weekends I dont see why they should jump however if this is the case I doubt you will be mentioning it on a forum 

As you like the self named reputation of not mixing words - there's some on the rocks for you 

No doubt you can now reply back to me advising what a t5sser I am etc blah blah blah with blunt words blah blah blah 

Andy


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## PMJ (Sep 11, 2001)

James, That is awful, a nighmare for anyone to contend with, I know you loved that car and tried to get it to work properly and I dont think you would have let it go anywhere without it being sorted beforehand... Mate I feel for you ( No not like that ), but it puts a whole new perspective on the tuning world....

Andy, Have you not heard of customer service,,, had that been me I too would have expected some help from some one i just sheled out 10k to ,


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## stew-s (Sep 16, 2004)




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## Pikey (Feb 19, 2004)

Funnily enough, my car was smoking in the manner you described after my first rebuild too, using all that oil etc, but I never had new pistons or rings  

That's a lot of money, more money than I could comprehend spending on a car, ever


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## BBD (May 30, 2002)

James, What can its really sad.

I have heard of worst causes and people who have spent much more in a rebuild only to get an engine faliuir at the green light.

I honesly try to aviod all tuners its not that I dont trust em I bought the car to tune it myway at my own pace. I do however buy parts from tuners and hear their recomendation and ask questions for the things I do not know, but always did the work myself OR at least supervise the work being done to my car to assure everything is the way I like it.

I have always worked with one principle "it blows its my own damn fault" keeps everyone happy in the end of the day.

Good Luck
Moe


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## skyline501 (Jun 29, 2001)

If you relayed all that to the new owner I don't think you should feel too bad about it. Caveat Emptor and all that. Personally, if I'd have heard half of the story I'd have run a mile.
Amazing how many Skylines are bought with the heart rather than the head.
Sad tale though!  

Vincenzo


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## ZXSpectrum (Feb 27, 2002)

WOW that is some bad luck Bladey... I get worried when figures are banded around of £3k for a CA18DET Rebuild... This is what puts me off buying a Skyline... I know that its only one owner out of many but it can happen to any of us... 

Guess i am not destined to own one as it would break my heart and bankrupt me if i bought one only to find that after 6 months it needed a rebuild that would cost upward of £10K...

Andy... I do appreciate that most of what you are saying is true but there has to be a line where tuners have to take responsibility for thier work... I am sure that you would not be too happy if you plonk that HKS engine into your car and it goes bang after 5 runs, then called them up and thet basically said tough! If i had paid nemesis that load of cash and they had removed the engine, sent it away for the rebuild then refitted it then they are to be held responsible... They chose where to send the engine.. He paid them... not the engine rebuilders... I could appreciate it happening once... but havign to fork out for several rebuilds mounting to thousands of pounds is robbery... Good workmanship is hard to find... But good customer services should not be!

I do however agree that if nemesis had little or no experience in building/tuning skylines i would have steered clear of them... No matter how friendly i was with them i would not be handing over my pride and joy to them... But that i suppose is life... Learn from mistakes... And in bladeys case a costly one...

I hope things get better for you in the future mate and sleep better at night knowing that A SR20DET for the tango one only really costs about £4K for a nice solid rebuild... 

Then again... What do i know... I only own a 200sx worth a few grand...???


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

I don't know whether "bad luck" covers it does it?

That many rebuilds - something doesn't add up? Either Nemesis don't know what they are doing, or the car was driven to destruction daily - its surely either one or the other?

Was Steve aware of the entire story or did he get the expigated highlights that were previously on the forum/For Sale thread?


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

ouch! thats a curse alright!!

After the first blunder why did you keep returning to Nemesis? they clearly did not know what they were doing by the sounds of it...


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## GTR-NUTTER (Jul 9, 2002)

bladey

as a victim of this crap, i feel sorry for ya, we went through shit with our subaru(first jap car) from then on only trust people i know that can do the work.

ANDY
i feel that what you just wrote, you are getting a dig back at bladey, m8 no need for that.

crap i cant write anymore as i do feel strongly about people who rip off people and say its life, andy i thought you garantee engine rebuilds, i dont think you would be happy if you were in this situation

K


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## Jabberwock (Jun 24, 2003)

James,

that's a really terrible chain of events, makes me cringe reading it  

It amazes me how long you stuck with it - good example of dedication to your dream. 


Ken.


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

Sad to say but the people who have been rebuilding your engine don’t know what they are doing. They should check all gaps and clearances before putting the engine back together, If the bore was so oversize the engine burned oil straight away it was way out of spec, or the rings were not fitted correctly. Gosnay also rebored my engine I checked a ring in each of my bores before reassembly all spot on the minimum clearance of 0.5mm. A easy check that took 10 minutes. For your rebuilder not to be able to diagnose the problem after was also very poor. Looking at the price charged they told you it was a discounted job but it looks top wack to me. Most of the engines troubles could be down to this early work blocks crack if the stud holes are not cleared, water in them can hydraulic as the bolts are tightened and cause damage. I would have taken them to court after their first attempt.


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

Andy Barnes said:


> James,
> 
> I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. If you'd have taken it to someone who knows how to build GTR engines I am sure you'd have been OK or limited your bad experience. Trouble is, cheap parts and a good deal are not always best and you have paid the price my friend. If you want to play with big numbers, they dont come easy or cheap and you have now become a master to teach this lesson to others.
> 
> Andy


I think your comments are unfair, you, and many others on this forum have a lot of knowledge and experience of cars in general and Skylines in particular and no doubt would not have fallen into this awful trap that bladerider did.

A lot of us arent that well informed and trust the people we deal with to do what they have said they can do, and when it starts going wrong how do we know when to cut it and go elsewhere? Its a bit like waiting for a bus, when do we give up and walk to the next stop.

A lot of dealers, tuners, importers etc in the Skyline world profess great abilities and lead the less well informed. like us, to believe that they are capable of wonders when the truth is that they cant even tell which turbo it is when they've got in front of them. 

I understand your instinct to come to the defence of a fellow tradespeople but your customers depend on your advice and we cant tell how good that is often until it is too late. 

We keep you all in business and even the least deserving of us should get respect and in this case sympathy - he didnt deserve this from Nemesis and nor those comments from you, with that attitude you will lose customers and ultimately your business.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

James,

You may recall I asked if you would right an article for Sky Lines about your experiences with your 34, but OK we got the thread instead. Sky Lines is NOT all about fairy tales with happy ever after endings, its about informing members and everyone else learning (and benefiting) from others experiences.

We've already seen people coming at this from several angles. Fact is you bought the car in good faith against a "specification", the fact that you bought at a good price and it went wrong is bullsh1t. You were given a spec and an agreed a price, that is NOT justification for getting the deal you got. I've had this arguement with people before, the fact that you negotiated a price does not justify chocolate turbo's or anything else. What p1sses me even more is when people try and justify the rip off by saying, "but you got it at a good price". Absolute tosh! If they could have sold it for a higher price don't you think they would! PLUS, in law price is irrelevant, the goods you sell MUST conform to what is advertised - Contract by tort and all that. 

Fact is, what is wrong is that people are allowed to get away with it. Stick with it, one (or two) rotten apples don't mean every apple is bad.

DaveG

I feel for you fella


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Thanks for the replies guys, even Andy   

I stuck with Nemesis because I didnt feel I had a choice, and the likes of Abbey and GTart _seemed_ expensive to just get them to do it. Obviously in the long run it turned out I could have had a full monty done just once by either instead of three bites at the cherry from my local tuners. Funnily enough thats another reason why I felt Nemesis would be ok - they were local and I knew people who work there.

At the end of the day my car was the most powerful one they had ever worked on at the time, and I guess like Andy says, I got what I deserved. The customer service side of things is a matter of opinion I suppose. Andy is obviously rich and stupid enough not to believe in it !!! I tend to feel that once you have spent a reasonable sum (around £30k at that point) with a company and been having work done by them for the best part of 15months that you get a little comeback - whaddo I know??    

Thanks again.

J.


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## JapFreak786 (Aug 29, 2003)

So far,all the work done on my car has been carried out by me and a mate.

I plan to do all what i can do,and hand it over to people who know what they are doing in other cases.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Well I guess there are only 4 real top skyline tuning companies in the uk, of which 3 of them are in the south east. 

Having been shafted by so called specialists in the past I know your pain, though what i lost was peanuts to you but its all comparative... you simply cannot trust anyone these days they are all in it for the money..a rat race!

Thats why now with the skyline, id get it done by some one who A. specialises in them, and B has a very good reputation with them....

But 30k


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

A bottom end from Nissan is only £3500 and will be good for 550 bhp so before you get Shafted, I would consider this option  Also you could sell your old engine and get back some of the money.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

im not talking about skylines here with my bad experiences..lol

had some servicing and custom exhaust work done by a company in derby on my calibra..


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## paul creed (Feb 18, 2003)

*And i'll echo Dave's comments.*

James, you know my thoughts behind crap like this.
basically, whether its a pound or a million, customer service is top of my list.
I think you have made the right decision to air ALL the facts, and it comes to a point where it has to be done.
I'm no technical boff by any means, and dont always understand the logic behind some tuners methods( but only because i lack the knowledge) , but i do know that poor customer service and some acceptance of responsibility is the cure to results like this.
There are a lot of us out here that should complain more and out loud too, as many establishments in the past have had far too big a grip on the outcome of many a customers demise. Now there are more options available and more reaily available help from other sources. 
Saying that, we probably have some of the most dedicated and experienced tuners around at our disposal. They work their nuts off after hours and sometimes at a minutes notice.Its just a shame that their social skills are somewhat lacking.
In this country, it seems that reputable dealers and suppliers of every type of commodity have some sort of idea that they are above it all. 
WRONG 
They have entered the world of trade and it is up to them to supply and bow down to the customer (unless obvious user miss-use was at hand).
I'm shocked that you have had to go through so much grief mate, but can only thank you for airing your views and facts to the many of us that probably wouldnt. That is the only way that things will improve.
Remember, for every 1 person that puts up a protest or complaint, there will be another 20 or so that have the same complaint but say nothing.

Very sad indeed. Hope you get on the right track soon my friend.
Regards..............Paul


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## Haribo (Oct 15, 2004)

wat james didnt tell u, was that, it was him that shat all over their demo car!!!    

like you sed to me other night tho bladey, everytime sum twat shuts a door, a buglar opens a window for you


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## MONKEYmark (Apr 17, 2003)

bladerider sorry to hear of your troubles.
just goes to show you how people are just out to rip you for all they can. with paying all that money out you should have some comeback. i had my cams and cam gears fitted by DRAGON a long time ago.
andy barnpot is a waste of space. why gloat over a fellow owners skyline troubles. it just puts you in a bad light and dont look good for future customers, thats if you have any.

the one person i would trust with my car is chris wilson. he will tell it like it is and always does a top job. he is a fellow skyline owner too. he has got another skyline now too. nemisis seem to come across as numptys. sure people will think twice about taking there cars there in future.

what car you got now, and has it put you off skylines ?


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Mark,

Im still doing alright as far as japanese modified metal goes   

And no, it hasnt put me off skylines. Quite the opposite actually, I feel I have a LOT of unfinished business where RB26's are concerned !!!

    

J.


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## mjcole12 (Apr 27, 2004)

andy i dont know what has happend between you and bladerider in the past and i dont care

but i think your comments were well out of order
you didnt like it when your wheels got nicked of your 350z
but then some might say you got what you deserved leaving it on a trailor in hull

i was considering buying some wheels and a bodykit from you over the next few months but i think i might go somewhere else now


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## roguejackal (Jul 10, 2004)

My heart goes out to you Bladerider you are obviously more tolerant than I am,on the few things I have had done to my GTR32 I have had GBH Motersport at Colchester do them, and am entirely happy with there work and the way they treat you as a customer, are they reasonably local to you


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## SkylineUSA (Jun 29, 2001)

James,

Sorry to hear about your misfortunes with the R34, but as some of the people who post on here thinks you need a specialist to build a RB26 is ridiculous. The ones that are going to profit from this mindset will always be the ones to preach that to be gosple. 

An engine is an air pump, no more, no less. If its mechanical it can break.


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## mambastu (Feb 13, 2002)

SkylineUSA said:


> James,
> 
> Sorry to hear about your misfortunes with the R34, but as some of the people who post on here thinks you need a specialist to build a RB26 is ridiculous. The ones that are going to profit from this mindset will always be the ones to preach that to be gosple.
> 
> An engine is an air pump, no more, no less. If its mechanical it can break.


Exactly. Its an engine, any *competent* mechanical engineering company can build it properly. Its not rocket science or some magical art. I really can't believe how much money some people pay to get work done by the so-called 'Skyline specialists'  

James, really sorry to read about your troubles with Nemesis. From your post its pretty evident that they don't seem to have much idea about engines in general and considering how much money you've spent with them their cutomer service is unbelievable ! 

Andy.....its evident that you have some past history with Bladerider. Your post probably hasn't done Sumo any favours.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

I woulden't wish this on anyone ,I'm sure Nemesis diden't say to to James we will rebuild your car but it will only last for a couple of 1000 miles.It does not matter if they were cheaper than say x tuner surely they are pro's and are supposed to do a proper job


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

James,

Didnt realise you had so many probs!!!! Im sure the new guy who wns it is probably feeling a lot worse than you after sepnding all his hard earned. 
I was in this dilema when i was tuning my R34.. I had a choice of tuners to go with and i chose one of the more reputable ones (GTArt) purely because i knew their track record with skylines. Ok i had to pay a few quid more than Joe Bloggs down the road but i knew in the long run the car would last and i wouldnt have to spend an extra penny on it. 
Being a forum and a place to share things, i find that you have explained yourself very well and backed up your story to warrent the shaming of certain tuners. I just hope that your next car gives you more luck.

Regards

Gerry


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## Liam (Sep 5, 2002)

sorry to hear about your troubles bladey. as for Andy Barnes, i was going to rip into you for that but there is no need, you've done your own name and company a fair bit of damage with that post


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

it is a hell of a story, and you have my sympathies - as does the new owner 

I think that certainly more a share of the responsibility lies with nemisis, and Andy while to a certain extent I agree with your point I do think that you have done yourself or your business few favours by posting in the manner that you have done.

if a customer who had spent the figures james is talking about phoned you in a similar situation would you be telling them "tough - what do you expect?" I doubt it very much indeed.

Simon


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## TonyT1965 (Nov 11, 2004)

posted a long reply on the other side, just to say that i'm disappointed with some responses on here really, we should be helping each other, not revelling in others misfortune...

I spent 3 hours making enquiries and talking to old contacts when them wheels went missing in my neck of the woods, I never bragged about it, and never expected anything in return, maybe it was time badly spent eh, I'll know next time..

all the best..

Tony


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## MattPayne (Apr 11, 2002)

Andys post was VERY blunt, in true Barnes style! he has a point... but when i used to deal with stuff thats been raced (when i was at the bike shop) we always tried to help the customer out... good customer service always brings the punter back... irriespective of how much he has/will spend! 

but... James bought a High spec engine, it was overbuilt with brand new components... it should last longer than it did... irrespective of what he does with it... revs are limited to safe levels, boost is limited to a safe level, it should last longer than a month!

and as for Sumo Power i wouldnt hesitiate to use them... yes Andy has an opinion, and yes it does often go against the grain... but their Customer service is top notch...  and that makes for a happy punter!!!


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

MattPayne said:


> Andys post was VERY blunt, in true Barnes style! he has a point...
> 
> but... James bought a High spec engine, it was overbuilt with brand new components... it should last longer than it did... irrespective of what he does with it... revs are limited to safe levels, boost is limited to a safe level, it should last longer than a month!
> 
> and as for Sumo Power i wouldnt hesitiate to use them... yes Andy has an opinion, and yes it does often go against the grain... but their Customer service is top notch...  and that makes for a happy punter!!!



Lots of people seem to forget that many of James posts are very similar in style to Andys (Blunt)
Thats the way these 2 people are, BLUNT but HONEST.
I the same as everyone else on here feels totally gutted for you James, but a least you had the privilage to pebble dash the front of my Fiesta :smokin:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

true !!

The only part of Andy's post that I found annoying was the customer service bit. He's a fine one to talk with midnight mapping sessions and the like !! Hardly your average day at the garage !! Andy speak his mind pretty bluntly as do I. Im the last person in the world gonna jump on him for having an opinion, even one I dont agree with.

J.


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

bladey - I would be very keen to talk to a lawyer / law firm etc.

If you have no rights then so be it, atleast you will have looked down that avenue.

The fact you had to pay for the engine to rebuilt again when it was found Nemisis had done a bad job in the first place is ridiculous. 

What Nemisis said about your problem being with the other engine builders is rubbish. Your contract was with Nemisis. The fact they used a sub contractor is irrelivent. 

You probably want to lay this to rest now so won't do anything, but I really think the effort required to check your legal rights by talking to a lawyer etc means you have to.

What people have said about tuners ****y / arsy customer service - especially in skyline circles is so true. Its the customers that keep these companies alive. You think about the number of staff these specialists have and the relatively low number of high paying customers, would surely suggest that with a little coordination, the customers could demand better treatment - or the tuner risks significant impact to their bottom line.
Just a thought. I hope you get it sorted - what ever you do.


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

bladerider said:


> true !!
> 
> The only part of Andy's post that I found annoying was the customer service bit. He's a fine one to talk with midnight mapping sessions and the like !! Hardly your average day at the garage !! Andy speak his mind pretty bluntly as do I. Im the last person in the world gonna jump on him for having an opinion, even one I dont agree with.
> 
> J.



how cool is this post!!! if i had found myself in this situation i'd be far less willing to demonstrate the degree of restraint james has shown, maybe thats is what the 'tuners' traded on, - his good nature


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

gertmuppet said:


> how cool is this post!!! if i had found myself in this situation i'd be far less willing to demonstrate the degree of restraint james has shown, maybe thats is what the 'tuners' traded on, - his good nature


Fair point!

James out of interest with all that went on with Nemesis why in Gods name did you have their name plastered down the side of your car? I'm presuming that was part of the discounted package deal or something? Just curious really.

Anyway, I'll bet you're glad you're out of it now! Regardless of what anyone else might say or think it sounds like you've had a lot to deal with. I went through a similar experience (albeit with a lot less money shelled out) with another "known" tuner with my R33 and it soured the whole experience for me.


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## cokey (Sep 11, 2003)

Bladey.... condolences mate !!
sort of been there. P,M,s bro.
Andy might as well of posted "Sumo Suck ! Too "  
Would you let Elvis tune your car????
No ! and he didn't either he chose Gary to do that because Dirk sells bits and Gary puts them together and makes them Diggle   
Andy I,ll have a Burger easy on the cheese mate and can you sing Old shepp at the same time ?
I,ll get my plaid  
Cokey


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## dja (Dec 19, 2004)

Dont get me wrong,i feel for you and the new owner.
But,
It sounds like you have way more money than sense!
Dave


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Interesting that you have posted this story James. True stories like this don't surface very often. I wonder what would have happened if people like Guy and Henry had posted their stories......
I feel sorry foryou having to endure this mess but if you get someone to do work on your car that they are not familiar with, you are paying for their R & D and their failures. I think that you will find that many other garages have had failures trying to create reliable 600 bhp engines.
I opted for the spec and tuner for my car as it was an easy spec that he has done many times. Even an easy spec like this did not run to plan. The crank angle sensor failed, the turbos failed when being mapped, the coils caused a misfire and a wiring fault caused the fuel pump to not supply enough fuel at the top end. This cost a lot of extra mapping, petrol, time and two changes of injector sizes. Rod kept me informed of all this, helped me out with the costs, let me off a lot of mapping and petrol and I consider that he went above and beyond his responsibilities. Good customer service, something that a lot of garages could do with providing for others.
I had to laugh at someones comments about no needing a specialist to work on the car. Anyone who has watched Rod (and no doubt other specialists) change turbos on their car will know how quickly he does as he has done it so many times. With his low labour costs, he must be a third of the cost of a garage doing it for the first time.

We missed you at the Grasshopper James. We were hoping to see your Tango machine!


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

davewilkins said:


> Interesting that you have posted this story James. True stories like this don't surface very often. I wonder what would have happened if people like Guy and Henry had posted their stories......


At the risk of digging up old graves, Guy once _did_ post a harrowing account of his experiences (which weren't too dissimilar), which I then added to (same tuner). Ultimately some backpeddling went on as often does when specific allegations get thrown around on publicly accountable forums, and culminated in me receiving a phone call threatening to kick my house door down. Allegedly of course.

It's a shame there isn't a great deal more honest accounts on the forums as I'm sure a lot of engine problems go unreported and in many cases people will continue to use people who have questionable histories and end up in the same boat.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I dont think I have more money than sense.

In fact it was the lack of money that originally made me buy the liner, as normally i wouldnt have been able to afford the 34 - I had previously been talking to Miguel about a 33 - but it just sort of dropped in my lap so to speak !!

When it went pop three weeks after I bought it I thought my life was over at the end of Woodbridge runway, smoke belching out the back. I couldnt figure out what I was gonna say to Karen  

From that moment on I was kind of tied to Nemesis as money was tight, I couldnt afford to just give it to Abbeys and say "go for it" but I didnt want a standard spec rebuild as that seemed like a waste of money in my eyes - why spend out for no gain?? When that rebuild failed words were said, a "deal" was done and I then became the "Nemesis Skyline" but it still cost a fortune, and in the long run hasnt saved me much money - as I have admitted.

So I dont feel its fair to say I had more money than sense. I got boxed in a corner and have been pretty much screwed ever since !! But you keep on having hope that maybe this time it will all be ok. But obviously it never is.  

Durzel,

You are absoluetly dead right mate. There are VERY few tuners of any marque in the UK that havent had major failures of one sort or another, in fact only one or two names spring to mind, and neither of those are skyline specific. The point is how they deal with it, and thats the time when posts like this count for something. trouble is as you say, an awful lot of dirt gets swept under the carpet - from all sides !!

I was gutted I didnt make the Hopper too Dave. I had been going to a drift practice day just up the road from me, but that got cancelled and I got roped into Xmas things instead.

Happy crimbo to you and Babs btw,

J.


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

Everyone makes mistakes sonner or later, its how you deal with them that makes the difference. 
You could say this was an opportunity for Nemesis to really make a good name for themselves instead they chose the other route, as so many often do.


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## twinturboch (Mar 21, 2004)

Absolutely gutted for you Bladey  Not the best entry to Skyline ownership  I've only read the first two pages, but I'm glad I did. I think it's safe to say that I won't be spending any of my hard earned at Sumo getting my RB26 sorted if thats his attitude  Totally un-called for


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

I agree with Dave.. You pay for R&D as well as experience.... In the long run its always worth paying a few extra pennies.
I too have heard a few stories of engines letting go and one always springs to mind.. The customer spent A LOT of money creating a strong enging and it let go. The tuner who i take my hat off to took responsibility and rebuilt the engine to the same spec. Now thats what i call customer service. Of course, the tuner had years of experience under his belt in skylines and has been long established.

Regards

Gerry


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## SkylineUSA (Jun 29, 2001)

A failure can happen to anyone who builds an engine, no matter if its an RB26 specialist, or a competent engine builder who is stepping out of his realm of expertise to build said engine. That is what I was trying to convey.


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

twinturboch said:


> Absolutely gutted for you Bladey  Not the best entry to Skyline ownership  I've only read the first two pages, but I'm glad I did. I think it's safe to say that I won't be spending any of my hard earned at Sumo getting my RB26 sorted if thats his attitude  Totally un-called for


Despite what Ive said, and others, about A.B.'s attitude I would still go to Sumo, thay have actually looked after me very well in the past and there was a minor ****-up once and it was sorted along with a kind gesture to make up for it.
So I imagine there must be more going on behind his post than Im aware of but still doesnt give a good impression and was putting the boot in, personal stuff is best kept personal.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Harsh mate.

It must have been some financial hit to shell out for all of this after buying a 'cheap' R34!

T


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## twinturboch (Mar 21, 2004)

liquidculture said:


> Despite what Ive said, and others, about A.B.'s attitude I would still go to Sumo, thay have actually looked after me very well in the past and there was a minor ****-up once and it was sorted along with a kind gesture to make up for it.
> So I imagine there must be more going on behind his post than Im aware of but still doesnt give a good impression and was putting the boot in, personal stuff is best kept personal.


I don't doubt the quality of his work, but my thought would be if he says that to Bladey, why wouldn't he say that to me if he felt like it, I'D rather go somewhere I know my custom is valued. There are plenty of others


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## gtr mart (Mar 29, 2004)

sumo dont do engine work - they just sell bits. Whilst AB's post is harsh and perhaps uncalled for, it is a situation you wouldn't be in with Sumo. They just sell bits. If you bought bits from them that were broken then they would be obliged to replace them anyway - if they messed up a delivery then it sounds like (as per liquidcultures post) that they would see you right anyway.

I guess Andy just hates Bladey and this is a great opportunity to put the knife in. There are probably you dont like and would say things to them that you woudn't say to a general customer etc etc


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## twinturboch (Mar 21, 2004)

I agree, but still the wrong attitude if he wants any new customers at all. You're right, he PROB wouldn't say that to me, but, there are others who I KNOW would not say that to me, and they will be getting my money.  It's no biggy, I don't care about not buying bits from him and I'm sure he won't care about not getting my money. Just my thoughts.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

hang on a sec, that vid of the bayside blue R34 doing 200 mph, that was bladey's right?


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## chas (Sep 19, 2003)

bladerider said:


> When it went pop three weeks after I bought it I thought my life was over at the end of Woodbridge runway, smoke belching out the back. I couldnt figure out what I was gonna say to Karen
> 
> J.


That statement alone must scare the sh1t out of everyone on here, it certainly does with me and i've only spent a fraction of what you have.

As for the more money than sense ?????
It shouldn't matter if your name is Bill Gates or whoever, from what i read i think you were treated shabbily. You/we can't expect tuners to drop everything and run, but with the money you spent you deserved better than... "what do you want me to do".

Andy, there's plain speaking and then some but FFS that was more like thumbing your nose and going 'nah,nah,nah'.As one of the top skyline people in the UK i would've expected better.

Tuning companies don't owe us a damn thing,it's their business(not a hobby) all we're doing is buying their time and knowledge, but when the sh1t hits the fan is it too much to expect a little common decency on the end of a phone.

James, I think you've learned the hard (and expensive) way but fairplay for highlighting this and maybe saving someone else from "what do you want me to do" attitudes.

I hope the future is not orange but 'rosey' for you.

Charlie...


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> hang on a sec, that vid of the bayside blue R34 doing 200 mph, that was bladey's right?


i think you should be careful what your posting on a pulic forum mate


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## Philip (Jan 17, 2002)

Yunis A said:


> hang on a sec, that vid of the bayside blue R34 doing 200 mph, that was bladey's right?


And your point is?

Phil


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## twinturboch (Mar 21, 2004)

Yunis A said:


> hang on a sec, that vid of the bayside blue R34 doing 200 mph, that was bladey's right?


I thought that was Nick Kiesa  and I don't think it was in the UK (look which side of the road he's on


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## Lee_Pendlebury (Nov 18, 2001)

twinturboch said:


> I thought that was Nick Kiesa  and I don't think it was in the UK (look which side of the road he's on


Thats another video


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## Trackdayplus (Sep 23, 2002)

*Disgsuting*

*James,

I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. If you'd have taken it to someone who knows how to build GTR engines I am sure you'd have been OK or limited your bad experience. Trouble is, cheap parts and a good deal are not always best and you have paid the price my friend. If you want to play with big numbers, they dont come easy or cheap and you have now become a master to teach this lesson to others.

Probably best if you hit the search button and go back to edit all your posts of preaching and fact straightening about the exploits of tuning your car 

Sorry to revell in your misfortune but everyone apart from you could have told you this story prior to a spanner being turned on day one, its not a Nemesis thing, its a Skyline engine thing. As for them not accepting the blame, damned right, this is a prime example of people spending lots of money on something they think should last forever due to the cost. You got a race engine, you raced it and it broke. Are they supposed to warranty it for life?

You came on here before, say im gonna do this to my block and that to my engine, its not been done like that before etc etc, well, what was the point, why try 'out of the ordinary' when tried and tested works quite adequately and then - you will later cry about it when it all falls to pieces!

Nemesis are certainly not business allies of us at all but from what you have posted I would agree with thier response. You have obviously along the way become too friendly with them and now think that they should be doing out of the ordinary things for you such as drop everything and rush to the port to collect your car as it was broken. You are a customer, you spent money with them for what you wanted and unless you sucked thier d1cks at weekends I dont see why they should jump however if this is the case I doubt you will be mentioning it on a forum 

As you like the self named reputation of not mixing words - there's some on the rocks for you 

No doubt you can now reply back to me advising what a t5sser I am etc blah blah blah with blunt words blah blah blah 

Andy
__________________
Andy Barnes

SUMO POWER WEBSITE! check the site or call 0871 226 0175

Sumo Power R34 GTR ' Ichiban ' : 9.68 @ 146 mph
Quickest 4WD car in Europe

I have a RED R32 GTR for sale, check here for info :Sumo R32's FOR SALE * 

Thats disgusting how can anyone defend that? 

Check out the TOTB4 thread for more information on what I'm saying people.

Simon

www.totb.co.uk


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## Bubble (Oct 3, 2003)

A very sad story, which I knew 95% of already. I work in the same town as Nemesis and would I go there? - I think not. They might be OK for bodykits and wheels etc. but not engine work. I have picked a tuner over 100 miles away from me and it's certainly not Andy Barns and never would be in the future after reading his post. 

I know how much this saga has cost James and I can fully see how, as he said, he was "boxed into a corner" by Nemesis. I'm glad that it's all behind you now James and you can concentrate on your new toys  

I'm gutted for Steve the new owner of the Bomber as well. This car is certainly jinxed


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## BlueFin (Oct 18, 2002)

Sorry to hear the misfortunes on your car James, truely bad luck and for Steve.


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## davewilkins (Jun 30, 2001)

Some of the earlier comments are uncalled for. We all make mistakes and James made a mistake. This thread was not to winge about how he was wrongly done to, it was to *put the record straight* as the car has let the new owner down now as well  
Of course the car started off with a reliable engine, and was modded to a reasonable bhp level but a tuner? has ruinied it all


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

I'm confused. Why does Andy Barnes keep going on about how good he is and how brilliant Sumo's cars are when all he does is buy parts and take them to GTaRt to fit  

Surely it is GTaRt that need the big upping as they actually do the work?

Ooops, did I say that out loud


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## Trackdayplus (Sep 23, 2002)

mattb - naughty boy - Andy will add you to his list and then you'll be sorry.


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

ah well he has been on my "won't buy anything from them" list for a while now and after that last post he is staying on it


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Trackdayplus said:


> mattb - naughty boy - Andy will add you to his list and then you'll be sorry.


in other words dont mess with Jesus! lol


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

I must say I think you have suffered the most shocking and disgraceful customer service James. I dont care whether they are 'mates' etc. if someone says they can do a job then they should be able to guarantee their workmanship. Otherwise they should not be in business.

Arent Nemisis supposed to be 'specialists' anyway? I realise there are always 2 sides to a story so I shall suspend total judgement and I wouldnt expect someone to pick up the car on a transporter for nothing BUT the engine work should have been warranted. James - my advice is to seek legal advice.

Andy, I disagree with your post entirely mate, sorry. James has every right to be upset IMHO.


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## twinturboch (Mar 21, 2004)

Is it me or is Andy digging a deeper and deeper hole for himself? Soon it will be so big it will swallow his whole company.  Maybe the person who nicked his wheels felt similarly and wanted to teach him a lesson.


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## Trackdayplus (Sep 23, 2002)

*"Is it me or is Andy digging a deeper and deeper hole for himself? Soon it will be so big it will swallow his whole company. Maybe the person who nicked his wheels felt similarly and wanted to teach him a lesson." * 

 ha ha the hole has become a chasm. Seriously though, its just plain nasty.


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## TonyT1965 (Nov 11, 2004)

nice to think in this day and age a firm can make a complete hash of a job, get paid TWICE for the priveledge, then pass the buck when it goes tits up for the SECOND time...

ONLY IN ENGLAND...

agree with others, legal action or at least advice should be sought James, coz u've been turned over big time, they probably played on your good nature mate, which is deplorable in the extreme...

when are these guys gunna realise that WE keep them in business, and without customers they are just another bunch of wannabes who think they know it all, obviously in this case they didnt know enough...

so glad that some of the tuning shops on here have a good reputation, and hope that many read this thread and realise where NOT to do their business in the future..

word of mouth via these boards is a major factor in drumming up business, the sooner the firms out there realise this the sooner they may well start giving us the service we deserve and stop tekking the pi55...

good luck with the new car James, and i hope Steve gets it sorted, preferably by someone who actually knows what they are doing...

all the best..

Tony


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

Bladey, I have seen a lot of tuning over the years like this from a lot of people not just Skylines, but other cars. This type of thing seems to be rare now as tuning has matured with the technology around, however people are out there who just do not have an ounce of Customer Service in them or skill in them it would seem. - BTW A little knowledge is dangerous. 

I do believe in what Andy said about a race engine and its life being true however thats another thing and maybe worth a ramble on another thread. What is true is that it seems none of the tollerances in putting an engine together seemed to have been stuck to, this isnt a sign of a company who know what they are doing.

Im glad to see this post Bladey as I believe people should know when things like this happen and more than once. 

On the other hand I feel for you with the pain you have been through.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

The times, they are a changing...

I have discussed this thread with James and he knows what I feel about this. While Andy's post could have been a 'tad' more tactful, there is some merit in what he posted. 

Of course Nemesis should be challenged over this although we have yet to hear their side of this sorry saga. We may never find that out but, as I've been told numerous times before, and I'm not defending Nemesis here, there are two sides to every story and, how did it go now, surely this is a private matter...

I guess that the main difference between this thread and a couple of mine in the past is that Nemesis don't appear to have many or even any supporters, customers or puppets on this forum so they are somehow fair game for a thread like this. 

The new owner of the Bomber must get the biggest sympathy vote here, what an introduction to Skyline ownership...


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

> I guess that the main difference between this thread and a couple of mine in the past is that Nemesis don't appear to have many or even any supporters, customers or puppets on this forum so they are somehow fair game for a thread like this.


No offence Peter but there is a big difference, not due to the 'supporters' either. James has been pretty fair with the post and has never mentioned it before - I think he has a genuine gripe to be honest.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

What, and I wasn't and didn't I suppose....


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Peter said:


> What, and I wasn't and didn't I suppose....


Its a totally different situation thats all Peter. James has not done anything as yet to resolve it - you had already taken action when you made your previous posts. He has also not put anything about it on the forum before and its a pretty lengthy problem. Sorry Peter I really dont think you can compare the different situations and as I have said before I dont really think these kind of posts should be on the forums at all as, as you said there are always 2 sides to a story which is why I recomend legal advice to try to seperate the facts from myths. If they think he has a case and that he has been treated unfairly and cannot resolve it without legal action then the court will have to decide.

Peter it's crazy to drag up old topics anyway - that one has been and gone. I personally did not agree with you on that occassion once I had heard 'both sides' but thats not what we are talking about now so lets leave it at that eh.

Ant.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Peter said:


> Of course Nemesis should be challenged over this although we have yet to hear their side of this sorry saga. We may never find that out but, as I've been told numerous times before, and I'm not defending Nemesis here, there are two sides to every story and, how did it go now, surely this is a private matter...


I sortof disagree with this. I totally understand the inherent dangers of posting libellous information on a public forum, but if the facts are not embellished then regardless of any point of view the other party might have, the facts speak for themselves. I think the Skyline community is much better off knowing about these incidents and I applaud James for his candid and honest post about it, as there would no doubt have been many people who would've continued to use, or thought about using Nemesis (using them as an example) blissfully unaware of things like this happening. If the shoe was on the other foot I would imagine most people would find it hard to be diplomatic - if it were _they_ who were faced with a huge, largely unnecessary or unjustifiable bill because the company they happened to use wasn't up to scratch.

This sort of issue strikes very close to home with me because of my (hopefully well known) experiences with another then-famous Skyline tuner. Guy posted his experiences, I posted mine, we were both essentially shot down, the thread was removed and everyone just carried on as normal. It sends a shiver down my spine to think there are/were people out there who would've used this tuner and would've been completely unaware of their questionable antics. Fortunately the MLR "outed" them for me, but I think they're still around in Banzai magazine circles etc.

We're not talking about Nissan main dealers here after all, as another posted eloquently put it - "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Ironically this works both ways, tuners with little knowledge and consumers with little knowledge of questionable tuners. 



Peter said:


> I guess that the main difference between this thread and a couple of mine in the past is that Nemesis don't appear to have many or even any supporters, customers or puppets on this forum so they are somehow fair game for a thread like this.


Funny that isn't it Peter 



Peter said:


> The new owner of the Bomber must get the biggest sympathy vote here, what an introduction to Skyline ownership...


Agreed - what a terrible start to ownership.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Durzel said:


> I sort of disagree with this..


So do I Darren, it was a tongue in cheek comment....


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

To me the debate is not who is right and who is wrong? in a certain incident, its more should these incidents be publicly aired until they are resolved? Its something all car forums must have a dilemma with...... 

Ant.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> Its a totally different situation thats all Peter. James has not done anything as yet to resolve it - you had already taken action when you made your previous posts. He has also not put anything about it on the forum before and its a pretty lengthy problem. Sorry Peter I really dont think you can compare the different situations and as I have said before I dont really think these kind of posts should be on the forums at all as, as you said there are always 2 sides to a story which is why I recomend legal advice to try to seperate the facts from myths. If they think he has a case and that he has been treated unfairly and cannot resolve it without legal action then the court will have to decide.
> 
> Peter it's crazy to drag up old topics anyway - that one has been and gone. I personally did not agree with you on that occassion once I had heard 'both sides' but thats not what we are talking about now so lets leave it at that eh.
> 
> Ant.


Talk about something you know about Ant because, from what you've posted above, you clearly know nothing about my previous 'situation' as you couldn't be further from the truth with some of what you posted. But as you say, I'm not here to hijack a thread so I'll leave that there but it's funny how people have selective memories...


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

*Legals and forums*



> Guy posted his experiences, I posted mine, we were both essentially shot down, the thread was removed and everyone just carried on as normal.


This is one thing that is disappointing me about forums nowadays. The Internet used to be the ultimate form of free speech and is now getting bogged down in hum-drum legalities. While I understand that there must be regulation it is getting too harsh now. The fact that Cem and co are terrified of being sued for someone elses postings because they run the site goes against the very existence of an Internet forum. All that will happen is you end up with an anally retentive "official" forum that provides almost no information such as this and a useless underground forum where the sh1t can't be separated from the useful.

If I have a bad time with a tuner, parts company, dry cleaning company then I should be able to tell people without fear of getting the site owners into trouble or getting abused by the company in question as they feel they have a right to control content on a site they sponsor.  

Please more threads like this! I for one, regardless of the outcome, want as much information to enable me to make my purchasing choices. I don't know about you but when I go on eBay I always read the bad feedback first as they usually tell the truth and a pattern can usually be seen quite quickly. All the "puppets" and chearleaders on here do not influence my decision on where to purchase one bit. I have used "recommended" company's before and I have not been impressed so far, with the exception of one. I will from now on find my own way with people I trust. They may be "specialists" or they may (quite literally in this case) be the local mechanic called Dave down the road.


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## deano (Jan 26, 2003)

Bladey , 

Truely gutted for you mate  

You got me number if you want to have a chat and a moan  oh and Ill throw in some free abuse


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

You're right Ant, there's a big difference between the two.
One mentioned the tuner, the other didn't. 

This is one of the topics on this forum that divides opinion like no other. 
I want them to stay live - it's important that businesses receive all feedback, good and bad, but most importantly it's important they understand that the customer is king and needs to be treated as such.

When the next generation GTR comes out, I know for a fact most people will be buying these cars officially and will be buying official upgrade packages. If these tuners want to compete in any way in this market, then they have a hell of a lot to learn.

We spend infinitely more on our Skylines than we do on the Ferrari's and Porsches I've owned, yet the customer service part of these transaction, quite frankly, sucks.

Cem


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Peter said:


> Talk about something you know about Ant because, from what you've posted above, you clearly know nothing about my previous 'situation' as you couldn't be further from the truth with some of what you posted. But as you say, I'm not here to hijack a thread so I'll leave that there but it's funny how people have selective memories...


Sorry I havent paid masses of attention to the forum recently but I thought it was that thing with RBM and the gearbox rebuild. Please be aware I am not talking at all about what happened to you but what is happening with James, there is no need to take it so personally I have no 'beef' with you mate and I respect your right to air your opinion......

Ant.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Matt,
I agree with you entirely mate.

In the 3 years I've owned this forum, I've had 5 legal threats from people too stuck up to defend themselves the correct way - through good customer service and frank, online apologies and promises to amends. They much prefer to shut people like us up through the courts...

Cem


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## R34Nismo (Oct 3, 2002)

I think the thing which is being missed here is whatever company you are talking about at the end of the day its the companies metal your testing when things go wrong, this is when you see how they can excel themselves or not, its irrelevant of the particular problem.


I agree Cem.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Cem, thats not always true, the forum almost always portrays the customers side of the story - what about when the customer is wrong and is being an ****?? It doesnt account for that does it as the company will still have its name tarnished.

I believe in freedom of speech but people always forget to remember there are 2 sides to a story. 

You have to remember I represent a company and as such I have a stance from that point of view. As a company we will always try to be fair and responsible for any mistakes we make, I also take pride in our customer service and always strive to be as clear and honest with people as humanly possible.

Ant.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

You'll be suprised how many of us represent companies Ant.
Fact is, if a business benefits from discussion on this forum and develops a certain amount of business through the recomendations generated here, then it should also see fit to respond to criticism in the same manner. Why should it work one way and not the other?

Everybody makes mistakes, it's a human fact of life. Anybody who doesn't make a mistake is either lying or not human. What sets a decent company apart from a crap one is how they resolve those issues.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

*wholeheartedly agree*

However, having been the victim of a person who rubbished me (not a company, me who privately sold to them) to a forum in the past (it ain't nice when people get the 'let's go firebomb their house' mentality, believe me) and putting it straight with the viewpoint of the other side I think it's important to hear both sides.

I'd agree the customer service looks poor, but wonder what they have to say about it.

T


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Blow Dog said:


> You'll be suprised how many of us represent companies Ant.
> Fact is, if a business benefits from discussion on this forum and develops a certain amount of business through the recomendations generated here, then it should also see fit to respond to criticism in the same manner. Why should it work one way and not the other?
> 
> Everybody makes mistakes, it's a human fact of life. Anybody who doesn't make a mistake is either lying or not human. What sets a decent company apart from a crap one is how they resolve those issues.



Put like that I completely agree, but although I dont think James is one of them, there are some that abuse this and make unfair accusations, as long as people are aware of that then I dont see a problem.

Personally I think James certainly has justified gripes and I hope it all gets resolved amicably for all parties, especially the poor b*gger that now owns the car.

It would as always be interesting to hear the other side though.....

Ant.


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

I can remember a couple of times on the forum there has been flaming posts up about this person or that company being bad and in the circumstances where the post has been untrue one single post from the supplier has turned the whole thread around. The post has usually been as factual and simple as James' above. No one can argue with the facts. If the company is represented on here then there may be a problem but I would hazard a guess and say most companies not represented on here in some way wouldn't care what was said about them anyway.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

I had a situtaion last year when I put my car in for some work with a tuner. I asked them for fabricate 4 inches to the middle section of my stainless steel exhaust. instead what did they do? they subcontracted the work to a power flow dealer who absolutely butchered my whole system. 

They cut of 8 inces off my decat pipe and welded a pipe that was 7mm smaller in diameter than the pipe work on my system. they also removed the middle silencer, in effect ran a straight through pipe from the cat back to the rear silencer. 

both systems were well and trully bodged and not fit to be on the car. When I reported this to the tuning company who contracted this work out they said "oh, we just gave the car to them and told them was you wanted" i said yeah i just needed the middle section length increased by 4 inches so the middle section fits well (previously its was a bit short and hit part of the rear propshaft)

The saga went on and on, the power flow dealer refused to deal with me as they said they were going on what they were instructed, (they had thrown away my middle section worth £190 straght into the bin, chopped my decat pipe £120 in half and welded in a crappy 56m pipe the system was good as junk. The tuning company refused to take any blame and kept pushing me toward the powerflow dealer.

The point of this? no big deal some of you would say, or your loss was nothing...., (i know my loss was about £350 tops, peanuts compared to the £30k blade lost) 

if i did not go public on the the forum i would not have got any of the money back, as this was thei stance prior tomaking an announcement. the discussion that did take place on the forum helped create some critisim for the tuning company and bad press..so in order to save their name and their reputaion they reimbursed me in full.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Blow Dog said:


> You'll be suprised how many of us represent companies Ant.
> Fact is, if a business benefits from discussion on this forum and develops a certain amount of business through the recomendations generated here, then it should also see fit to respond to criticism in the same manner. Why should it work one way and not the other?
> 
> Everybody makes mistakes, it's a human fact of life. Anybody who doesn't make a mistake is either lying or not human. What sets a decent company apart from a crap one is how they resolve those issues.


Absolutely spot on. Why should the door only swing one way?

If a company, _any_ company, is willing to trade of the positive publicity they get on and through this forum - in my opinion they should also be equally willing to deal with customer service complaints when they occur. 

If we were arguing the toss over the quality of service provided by specific Nissan dealerships there would be none of this partisan attitude that is often displayed on here, so why should specialist tuners be any different?

In an ideal World of course it should never come to individual owners feeling they have no recourse save to tell everyone about their experiences. Good, efficient customer service would ensure that such events never happen.


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## -C- (Oct 16, 2003)

Blow Dog said:


> You're right Ant, there's a big difference between the two.
> One mentioned the tuner, the other didn't.
> 
> This is one of the topics on this forum that divides opinion like no other.
> ...


100% agree.

Even more so when you consider the actual amount of money people spending.


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## spudgun (Sep 3, 2001)

james has my full sympathy on this.

over the past five years, ive spent somewhere in the region of 100k modifying various jap cars ive owned. ive used various companies, and apart from RC developements for my evo (who were marvellous in every way, honest), every single firm has ended up letting me down, mucking me about, or not achieving what they claim they can.

put it this way, if james' car was an sl55 and a mercedes dealership had done this to james, it would be on watchdog, top gear would slag them, legal action would ensue against mercedes etc etc. problem is, we allow ourselves (the customers) to get too matey with these firms, then make excuses for them when the balls it up or are just plain rude or unprofessional.its our fault in a way for not being brave enough like james. we allow this sh1t to happen! 
its about time more threads like this appeared. 

my opinion is this... if xyz tuner wants to charge me £100 per hour to work on my car, charge big bucks for parts and labour, theyd better get it bl00dy right from now on, otherwise i aint quietly takin their sh1t anymore, i'll post it here.  


well done james, about time someone spoke out mate!


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> When the next generation GTR comes out, I know for a fact most people will be buying these cars officially and will be buying official upgrade packages. If these tuners want to compete in any way in this market, then they have a hell of a lot to learn.
> 
> Cem


I think things will have to change big time, Nismo have been talking about expansion for some time now and in this weeks Autocar there is an article where a Nissan boss states that he wants to see Nismo as the Nissan version of AMG, with the 350 and Micra (if I remeber correctly) as the first examples of their efforts. No doubt others will follow including the next GTR.

Im sure they wont stop there either, with the money to be made (as you say the money spent on tuning is collosal) it wont be long before they eat into the 32,33 &34 aftermarket tuning business. If the present situation persists then there is going to be a big clear out of crap companies and most will sink or swim on customer service and Nissan/Nismo will set the pace. they wont be able to be anything other than A1 when they start out.

Any talk of Nissan's failings will not apply to Nismo who allready have a good reputation and will buid on it, they are after market share.

So allthe present tuners and suppliers had better sharpen their act or they wont last 5 minutes.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

Education and awareness, wonderful weapons against the unscruple trader. Those who arrive, look at the bottom line on the bill and pay up without question are doing NONE of us a favour, it just encourages the bu66ers to charge even more!

If you cannot justify it, don't charge it. I'm not against profit, I'm in business myself and it pays the overheads and salaries, but a prime consideration is are you delivering VALUE to your Clients. 

Be prepared to question, its up to them to justify the price they charge, otherwise vote with your feet and take your business elsewhere. Eventually the word should get around enough that makes the rogue traders business unsustainable, unless they put there house in order. 

Its the theme of my column in Sky Lines 3.............. probably make me ever so popular........


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Well said Dave.

Bladey, its sounds like you've been more than fair and I would expect a better response as a customer. I know someone who had a similiar prioblem with his EVO and a well know tuner, it got sorted in the end but not in the usual manner... 

Out of interest, why did RK get involved?


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

I couldnt possibly comment Im afraid  

I wont post anything as true if I dont know it is, and it is speculation on my part.

What I have said before is totally accurate, and I would be happy to swear an oath in any court in England and recount these things verbatum.

J.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Fair enough mate.


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## Livelee (May 11, 2003)

bladerider said:


> What I have said before is totally accurate, and I would be happy to swear an oath in any court in England and recount these things verbatum.
> J.


You should mate, after seeing that: http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=30721 and reading this thread, somebody shoud get them in the dock.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

lol


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

A disgrace to the skyline community....Funny thing is that some poor mug will probably go and spend £thousands thinking he has a 1000bhp skyline by getting that kit fitted   .
In all fairness it seems that tuners operate above the law. If there was a common code then it would be less likely that we would be getting ripped off and if something like the bottom end failed so many times then they would be liable. As someone posted earlier, we get too friendly with our tuners which can be good in some ways but im 100% sure that such friendship will not give you a huuuge discount or make the car more reliable. I dont know to what conclusion this thread will draw on but all i can say is that a lot of us are taken for a ride but because we are dealing with our pride and joys we dont mind spending our hard earned and the tuners are taking advantage of such a weakness.

Regards

Gerry


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

ATCO said:


> If you cannot justify it, don't charge it. I'm not against profit, I'm in business myself and it pays the overheads and salaries, but a prime consideration is are you delivering VALUE to your Clients.


You only have to look at purchasing aftermarket tuning parts to see the extent by which UK people generally get mugged.

Take a PowerFC for example. I'm not talking about the cost of fitting or mapping, just the unit itself. Ask Middlehurst or some other tuners what they'd charge to supply that and I'd be surprised if it was less than £1000. Import it yourself from Japan, or even someone like Nengun or Greenline and you'd be looking at sub-£500 for the PowerFC unit _and_ hand controller. That's a brand new unit we're talking about, that's every bit the same as any unit sourced through a UK tuner.

Yuu could get into the discussion of Customs duty and time it takes to import stuff vs. tuners having it on their shelves ready-to-go (assuming they even do, that's by no means a certainty) but at the end of the day any way you cut it thats a 200%+ markup for absolutely no justifiable reason.

It doesn't just apply to PowerFCs of course, pretty much any Skyline part attracts similar exorberant markups...

I'm prepared to throw a bit of extra money a tuners way in order to forge a good relationship and so on, but I'm not going to pay anyone to rob me blind. Fortunately because I have contacts in Japan I would hope that UK tuners, when faced with my custom would realise that I'm not stupid, I know how much these things cost in Japan or can find out easily enough, and charge me appropriately. Well, that's the dream anyway 

Just to be fair - it's not only tuners that are guilty of this, Nissan and indeed car dealerships as a whole are "guilty" of overcharging on parts that can be acquired from the source for often considerably less money. You can't blame them totally, they're in it to make a profit, they have overheads, staff to pay and so forth. Making £500 on the sale of a PowerFC that only costs £500 to begin with, however, is outside what I would call "acceptable profits".

Food for thought anyway, and a little off topic


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

there are decent tuners out there - I spoke to one about a PowerFC and then mapping thinking I might get a better deal combined. I was told to buy the PowerFC from greenline - as he couldn't match those prices - and give him a call when it needed mapping.

guess where it is being mapped.

Simon


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

I agree, most tuners and conmpanies are making upto and as much as 100% markup on goods. Power fc is a good example. But was suprised to see nengun selling GT2530's for £1350, where as ive seen them as much as 3k in the uk and some tuning companies.

Also what I cant understand is the huge hourly labour charges, like you say the have overheads and such, thats fair enough, but some of the figures ive had is OTT, 10 hours labour would be almost my two weeks hard earned salary!...its people like us who keeps paying the ransom..gives them the incentive to keep pushing their prices up..its getting silly thats for sure!


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

I think most of what has been said is right and some wrong

Rod Bell the owner of R.B Motorsport
has been working on skyline GTR's for well over 13 years.
he has worked on more skylines than you could ever imagin.

Rod started working on skylines at Middlehurst years ago
well before anyone knew what a R32 Skyline GTR
was all about with Iain Hill from Hiteq
they were also the guys that done all the work to the race skylines 
that Andy Middlehurst won all his races in.

I think that Rod charges a fair price for his parts
remember he HAS to pay the full duty on what he buys in from Japan
If anything goes wrong with parts that you buy you can go back with it
what are you going to do if you bought it into the UK yourself  

then it comes down to the labour rate R.B Motorsport
only charge £40 per hour + vat,if it is just a small job
but if it is a big job the labour rate comes down  
not very often you will see that is there.

Keith


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

Sorry, this is going off topic a bit...



Durzel said:


> You only have to look at purchasing aftermarket tuning parts to see the extent by which UK people generally get mugged.


It's good business in my view. Obviously you can't directly compete on price in the UK with Japan but you can compete on service. There is money to be made at the moment in this market and while there are people around who will just chuck money at something then prices will stay high. Whatever the market will bear. Nobody likes being ripped off so when more people start sourcing the units elsewhere then prices will naturally fall more in to line in the UK.


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## ATCO (Feb 2, 2003)

keith said:


> then it comes down to the labour rate R.B Motorsport
> only charge £40 per hour + vat,if it is just a small job
> but if it is a big job the labour rate comes down
> not very often you will see that is there.
> ...


Hi Keith, still with us then!

I'm sure Rod will appreciate you revealing he drops his rate!  Mind you what's the definition of a big job! In truth, based on experiences of three of the main tuners, Rod is the lowest hourly rate and the man knows his job, even without a reduction! Its the 500 mile round trip (aka £100 of fuel) that can balance it out.............. Also at 3k service intervals then 17% of it going just to the place don't help either!


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Fullonloon said:


> It's good business in my view. Obviously you can't directly compete on price in the UK with Japan but you can compete on service. There is money to be made at the moment in this market and while there are people around who will just chuck money at something then prices will stay high. Whatever the market will bear. Nobody likes being ripped off so when more people start sourcing the units elsewhere then prices will naturally fall more in to line in the UK.


No one is talking about service though, that's a whole different ballpark.

I'm talking about the cost differential between the exact same parts being sourced from Japan, even if going through a third-party company like Greenline, Nengun and/or others, vs paying for it from a UK tuner.

You're contradicting yourself a tad incidentally, on the one hand you say "nobody likes being ripped off" whilst saying "there are people around who will just chuck money at something". It's one or the other surely, or more accurately the people who chuck money at something _don't care_ about how much it costs. There are always going to be people around who will just throw blank cheques around simply because they can - I'm certainly not one of them, and forgive me if it doesn't sit well that I pay more than twice for something (using PowerFC as an example) which I could _easily_ source for less than half that cost.

Keith: Whilst your point about businesses paying full duty for the parts is a fair one, Im sure - in fact I know for a fact from importing things myself - that the duty on a £500 PowerFC wouldn't double its price. Last time I checked 17.5% was less than 100%. Incidentally no one mentioned Rod specifically, I don't even know how his name was brought into it - I was talking about tuners generally. For the sake of argument, an example less likely to be "talked up" by its fanboys would be Middlehurst.

The problem in my humble opinion is the market is split between people who are reasonably cost-conscious and price savvy, and those with so much money that it is simply of no consequence to them how much things cost or how much tuners charge. Whilst both these disparate customer "types" use the same tuners the current way of doing things will always persist.


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

ATCO said:


> Hi Keith, still with us then!
> 
> I'm sure Rod will appreciate you revealing he drops his rate!  Mind you what's the definition of a big job! In truth, based on experiences of three of the main tuners, Rod is the lowest hourly rate and the man knows his job, even without a reduction! Its the 500 mile round trip (aka £100 of fuel) that can balance it out.............. Also at 3k service intervals then 17% of it going just to the place don't help either!


It works well for the guys up North and in the midlands
that is what you get for living so far South Dave :smokin: 

Keith


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> I agree, most tuners and conmpanies are making upto and as much as 100% markup on goods. Power fc is a good example. But was suprised to see nengun selling GT2530's for £1350, where as ive seen them as much as 3k in the uk and some tuning companies.
> 
> Also what I cant understand is the huge hourly labour charges, like you say the have overheads and such, thats fair enough, but some of the figures ive had is OTT, 10 hours labour would be almost my two weeks hard earned salary!...its people like us who keeps paying the ransom..gives them the incentive to keep pushing their prices up..its getting silly thats for sure!


        

If I was a tuner and you came to me with an attitude like that - would you expect me to give you good service?!?!?? Overheads are much higher than you could obviously ever contemplate. Why dont you start up a tuning company in the UK and see how you get on.....

Why not blame the real cause of the problem - the government - with such high rates, tax and all the other hidden costs due to over zealous health and safety its a wonder any small business suceeds. 

If you pay peanuts you get monkeys....... ......okay some main agents charge a silly hourly rate but £40-50+VAT per hour is the going rate these days for a small tuner/garage - you try running one for less than that.

Dont make such stereo typical responces about something you clearly know NOTHING about.


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

Durzel said:


> No one is talking about service though, that's a whole different ballpark.


They go hand in hand. You supply and fit, not just supply. You are offering a service, you are offering a point of contact in the UK. The customer is paying for the value that brings. If something goes wrong then the customer has someone to go back to in the UK as the first line of support. If some muppet goes to a car place in the UK and pays full price for an expensive tuning product without having it fitted then they are daft. 



> You're contradicting yourself a tad incidentally, on the one hand you say "nobody likes being ripped off" whilst saying "there are people around who will just chuck money at something". It's one or the other surely...


I hadn't meant to be contradicting, but I'm glad that you picked up (in the paragraphs below) on the point I was trying to make and that we both agree on.



> or more accurately the people who chuck money at something _don't care_ about how much it costs. There are always going to be people around who will just throw blank cheques around simply because they can - I'm certainly not one of them, and forgive me if it doesn't sit well that I pay more than twice for something (using PowerFC as an example) which I could _easily_ source for less than half that cost.


Then source it from the cheapest place and everyone is happy? I would point out that cheap doesn't always represent good value... 



> The problem in my humble opinion is the market is split between people who are reasonably cost-conscious and price savvy, and those with so much money that it is simply of no consequence to them how much things cost or how much tuners charge. Whilst both these disparate customer "types" use the same tuners the current way of doing things will always persist.


Well, yes exactly, as in every other business.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

For the record, I don't have a problem with labour costs persay - you're paying for expertise, specialist equipment, time and so forth. Parts are really my main bone of contention - and even weighing up the whole "UK point of contact for when things go wrong", we all know how much that is worth in real terms when things are bolted together. 

Whilst a PowerFC or other single component breaking (not sure how this could happen, but still) could in theory be taken back to the tuners for a refund/replacement, I'd be amazed if this would happen on an engine component, even assuming you could pinpoint it as the cause of the problem. Most engine components I'd wager would, if faulty, end up being contributory factors in engine failure rather than a clear single point of failure. Take an air filter as an extreme example, if it didn't filter properly and let all manner of crap into the plenum resulting in scoring or whatever, I'm sure the net result (engine damage) would not be covered in any way shape or form by any tuner, nor should it. My point is - it's very rare that you buy a component, particularly an engine component, and know that should it go wrong it will simply be one thing to replace.

And as a point of note, assuming for a moment a PowerFC did fail - if you bought it from Nengun or whoever you could buy another brand new one, without even bothering to consider the hassles of dealing with Apexi Japan direct, and *still* be paying less than UK supplied price. When you look at things and realise you can sometimes import the same item twice if not three times over, brand new, before you start to enter the realms of UK pricing - well, if no one sees anything wrong with that then I'm amazed.


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

Durzel said:


> For the record, I don't have a problem with labour costs persay - you're paying for expertise, specialist equipment, time and so forth. Parts are really my main bone of contention - and even weighing up the whole "UK point of contact for when things go wrong", we all know how much that is worth in real terms when things are bolted together.


What's that then? 



> Whilst a PowerFC or other single component breaking (not sure how this could happen, but still) could in theory be taken back to the tuners for a refund/replacement, I'd be amazed if this would happen on an engine component


How many engine components (do you mean internal) is the general punter (not hardcore solo tuner) going to buy and NOT have fitted at the same place? The correct answer is none. 

How many companies would be happy to supply items that have been sourced elsewhere? Very few, after all, they are running a business.



> , even assuming you could pinpoint it as the cause of the problem. Most engine components I'd wager would, if faulty, end up being contributory factors in engine failure rather than a clear single point of failure. Take an air filter as an extreme example, if it didn't filter properly and let all manner of crap into the plenum resulting in scoring or whatever, I'm sure the net result (engine damage) would not be covered in any way shape or form by any tuner, nor should it. My point is - it's very rare that you buy a component, particularly an engine component, and know that should it go wrong it will simply be one thing to replace.


Cuckoo.  And this has what to do with the price? 



> And as a point of note, assuming for a moment a PowerFC did fail - if you bought it from Nengun or whoever you could buy another brand new one, without even bothering to consider the hassles of dealing with Apexi Japan direct, and *still* be paying less than UK supplied price. When you look at things and realise you can sometimes import the same item twice if not three times over, brand new, before you start to enter the realms of UK pricing - well, if no one sees anything wrong with that then I'm amazed.


Seeing as you've spotted a gap in the market then why not bring some in and sell them?


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

keith said:


> I think most of what has been said is right and some wrong
> 
> Rod Bell the owner of R.B Motorsport
> has been working on skyline GTR's for well over 13 years.
> ...


my initial view of the little contact i have had with rod and steve have been very good so far! seems liek a good bunch of guys.

I remember the middlehurst skylines back in the very early 90's running in the production saloon championship i think..

40+vat is a decent hourly rate to be charged imo


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

If you're going to pick apart every point whilst being a sarcy twat about it then I'm not going to waste my time replying, I have better things to do.. You've clearly missed all the points I've been trying to make instead opting to read between the lines just to make a point of being a smartass. Or maybe you couldn't grasp what I wrote, who knows.

No one is questioning whether tuners would be happy to new fit parts supplied by the customer (don't know what their thoughts are on second hand parts).. I've heard the words "bringing food to the restaurant" mentioned before in this context. Frankly, when faced with a 100% hike in price for absolutely no justifiable reason, taking into account overheads being paid for the most part by labour costs (which for the benefit of the cheap seats I will stress once again I have no problem with)... I'm not going to be a happy bunny. If you're happy paying twice as much for something that will be exactly the same in every respect as something you could source for half the price, *forgetting about fitting and tuning - that's a seperate and distinct cost*, then more power to you.. it's your money.



Fullonloon said:


> Seeing as you've spotted a gap in the market then why not bring some in and sell them?


If I was so inclined I could easily buy parts from Nengun then sell them onto people at a slightly inflated cost, but those people would still run into the problems you've mentioned - the "bringing food to the restaurant" negativity you'd receive. Bottom line is I have better ways of making money and supplying parts does not interest me in the slightest as a business model.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

AJFleming said:


> If I was a tuner and you came to me with an attitude like that - would you expect me to give you good service?!?!?? Overheads are much higher than you could obviously ever contemplate. Why dont you start up a tuning company in the UK and see how you get on.....
> 
> Why not blame the real cause of the problem - the government - with such high rates, tax and all the other hidden costs due to over zealous health and safety its a wonder any small business suceeds.
> 
> ...



i dont have a problem with an hourly rate of £40-50, i think you have over reacted here mate....


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## Fuggles (Jul 3, 2001)

You mean tuners have rate sheets!  
I thought they used the local telephone directory to make up quotes.


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## TonyT1965 (Nov 11, 2004)

i think 40-50 an hour is fair enough, but for non-specialist work its a bit steep.. i paid 50+vat at the nissan main dealers, and about 20+vat at a local place reccommended to me, and the cheaper garage was far more efficient then the main dealer...

now i know this isnt always the case, but i think if you find a good place at a reasonable charge, show your appreciation for their service by your patronage..

all the best..

Tony


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

Durzel said:


> If you're going to pick apart every point whilst being a sarcy twat about it then I'm not going to waste my time replying, I have better things to do.. You've clearly missed all the points I've been trying to make instead opting to read between the lines just to make a point of being a smartass. Or maybe you couldn't grasp what I wrote, who knows.


  You were doing so well up to then but ruined it by going negative.



> No one is questioning whether tuners would be happy to new fit parts supplied by the customer (don't know what their thoughts are on second hand parts).. I've heard the words "bringing food to the restaurant" mentioned before in this context. Frankly, when faced with a 100% hike in price for absolutely no justifiable reason, taking into account overheads being paid for the most part by labour costs (which for the benefit of the cheap seats I will stress once again I have no problem with)
> 
> ... I'm not going to be a happy bunny. If you're happy paying twice as much for something that will be exactly the same in every respect as something you could source for half the price, *forgetting about fitting and tuning - that's a seperate and distinct cost*, then more power to you.. it's your money.


Durzel everyone has to live, this is their business, their way of making money. 

They buy parts in, put margin on top, supply to you and fit item. If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's like getting a price to import a car then going to a UK garage saying you charge too much, I can get it for XYZ if I import it. 

I don't see your point at all. 

Some people are happier buying from within the company so they have someone to fall back on. I wouldn't fancy dealing with an RMA request with Japan due to communication, language barrier and time scales. This is where the value is and this is what you pay for.



> If I was so inclined I could easily buy parts from Nengun then sell them onto people at a slightly inflated cost, but those people would still run into the problems you've mentioned - the "bringing food to the restaurant" negativity you'd receive. Bottom line is I have better ways of making money and supplying parts does not interest me in the slightest as a business model.


Nor should it as there is obviously no money in it...


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

I think Ant has over reacted.

Personally, if you have an attitued like the one you have been showing of late, how can a customer be sure of gettign a good service from you? 

People were very quick to put down andy barnes, yet some of your comments have not been to impressive either....


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## keith (Jun 29, 2001)

I have just been told that grasshopper-prosport is no more 

does anyone know if this is right  

www.grasshopper-prosport.co.uk


Keith


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## ZappBrannigan (Dec 22, 2004)

Sorry to voice my opinion as this is my first post but...

Like a lot of people i have been linked here by another forum but please dont think im butting my nose in...

I have taken the time to read all 9 pages of this post, read every single post and come to a conclusion of all my own.

I can symphathise with the "race engine" ethic but on the other hand if it was discovered that engine failure was due to Nemesiss' incompetence and no gentlemans agreement could be reached, then they would receive a letter from my court telling them to put in their defense for everything including compensation. 

Bladerider, if that is your true story i would seek legal advice, but alas i fear it is too late. 

Regarding nemesis i was going to take my scooby there in the new year to see what they could offer. Dont think i will now.

Same goes to Sumo. Your attitude is disgusting. Being so local to me i was looking forward to poping up there in the new year to discuss HKS parts etc. If that is your attitude i'll be very pleased not to


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

keith said:


> I have just been told that grasshopper-prosport is no more
> 
> does anyone know if this is right
> 
> ...


Thats a shame if its true. I always found Justin et al very helpful.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> I think Ant has over reacted.
> 
> Personally, if you have an attitued like the one you have been showing of late, how can a customer be sure of gettign a good service from you?
> 
> People were very quick to put down andy barnes, yet some of your comments have not been to impressive either....


Yunis, did I not give you advice over the phone, was I helpful or rude? Only you can answer, I try to give the best customer service possible. I also represent a garage and I KNOW the financial realities of running a garage. People are so quick to judge when something goes wrong. I just speak my mind I guess like Andy and Bladey but without an opposing opinion there is no debate. As I have said I think Bladey is probably justified in his complaints, thats what this topic is about. I also think some of the comments others have made about garages are true and fair, some like yours were in my opinion over the top and unfair. No offence intended Yunis but I disagree with you thats all.
I was not quick to 'judge' Andy I simply put that I disagreed with him and thats all.

Ant.


----------



## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> i dont have a problem with an hourly rate of £40-50, i think you have over reacted here mate....


Yes I think I did and I appologise for that, however bear in mind I wont always agree with everyone.


----------



## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Reply*



ZappBrannigan said:


> Same goes to Sumo. Your attitude is disgusting. Being so local to me i was looking forward to poping up there in the new year to discuss HKS parts etc. If that is your attitude i'll be very pleased not to


I am sure that if you actually did visit, you would see what my attitude is and maybe you could also ask me why I posted what I did as I would be happy to explain it to you. However I am sure you as well as the others who feel strongly about what I posted and also have no idea why I posted it are unfortunately lost forever and will never know what you have lost by not coming to us for help, advice and parts if you needed any and for that I am sorry for you and me both.

I guess being a little more vague, dishonest and a liar would be a better solution for my little outburst as telling the truth is just plain poison, afterall when considering tuning shop supplies you'd probably opt for the first options over the latter right? 

James' predicament etc was not ideal as it is unfortunate for him however it is not that which aggrivated me at all, what got my goat is that it is that the attitude to save every penny and go where the price is best is not always the best route and when you are spending so much, you should think twice as hard as to what you will spend your money on. I know for a fact James went there as the parts were cheap and the guys appeared as friends and would 'sort him out', when he told me ages ago after the first rebuild, I can remember saying that he should have taken it to Gary @ GTART ( ie someone who knows there stuff ) but here we are again, bang. Some people just like being kicked in the nuts and no matter how many times you tell them its not good for them, they still like the kicking.

Dont know about you but if I had to buy condoms for night out with prostitutes I didnt know ( obviously ) who were also pornstars ( I am relating the RB26 ticking timebomb to a possible personal condition - ie you are about to do something that could be dangerous ), I'd buy the cheapest ones I could, you would too right? - they all do the same job - dont they? Coupled with that and to relate to the pricing issue on the thread, I would not only buy the cheapest ones I could but I would also buy them off the internet from someone in Burma as I could get them a bit cheaper still, why would I buy the ones my friends use and have never broken, id be better saving the money and buying something else with my saving..... maybe a private visit to the clinic for when it broke..... 

My Head / wall : bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang, Ouch! it hurts.. Oh well bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,


----------



## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Yunis A said:


> I agree, most tuners and conmpanies are making upto and as much as 100% markup on goods. Power fc is a good example. But was suprised to see nengun selling GT2530's for £1350, where as ive seen them as much as 3k in the uk and some tuning companies.
> 
> Also what I cant understand is the huge hourly labour charges, like you say the have overheads and such, thats fair enough, but some of the figures ive had is OTT, 10 hours labour would be almost my two weeks hard earned salary!...its people like us who keeps paying the ransom..gives them the incentive to keep pushing their prices up..its getting silly thats for sure!


I think I came to the conclusion that you were talking about £40-50 +VAT being too high as, AFAIK none of the uk Skyline tuners charge over £50+VAT per hour. So you can understand my error, however I did jump in and get a little defensive and I appologise for that.

People seem to be generally upset with tuners, but pretty much all my experience has been good, if they are too expensive then I ring around elsewhere. There is one tuner (not a specific Skyline tuner) that I found to be extremely rude and arrogant but I would dream naming them. I have dealt with RE:Worx, Abbey Motorsport, RX motors, Rod bell, Richard Bell and RC developments. I have also had limited dealings (mostly talking) with GT:ART and Geforce motorsport - they were knowlegdable and friendly (but I cannot comment on how good they are as I have never really used them properly) All of them I have found to be decent people and comitted to doing a good job, if they are too expensive then I will ring around perhaps but I still respect them for what they do. Dont forget all of the time that they do things for their customers without getting paid, technical advice, quoting, buying advice, help when you are doing DIY work etc. I think if people expect to get RUF style service then its unlikely without charging an enormous amount more then they currently do. We are not superhuman, we are just people trying to make a living, and quite honetly thats about all I am going to say on the matter.  

Ant.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

> Dont know about you but if I had to buy condoms for night out with prostitutes I didnt know ( obviously ) who were also pornstars ( I am relating the RB26 ticking timebomb to a possible personal condition - ie you are about to do something that could be dangerous ), I'd buy the cheapest ones I could, you would too right? - they all do the same job - dont they? Coupled with that and to relate to the pricing issue on the thread, I would not only buy the cheapest ones I could but I would also buy them off the internet from someone in Burma as I could get them a bit cheaper still, why would I buy the ones my friends use and have never broken, id be better saving the money and buying something else with my saving..... maybe a private visit to the clinic for when it broke.....


PMSL thats a funny one! 

I still dont agree with you completely but I see your point and respect your opinion, after all without all the banter this forum would not be what it is 

Ant.


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

Andy,

I think you needs get to know some classier girls mate. 

I can introduce some nice ones to you from this side of the water.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Scott said:


> I think he could needs get to know some classier girls mate.


Classic Scott.


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Girls*

I was making a reference that those less physically perfect than myself may understand


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

Sorry dude!  

I didn't know you also knew physically perfect hookers.   

Mind you, looking at my lovely Sumo Xmas card, (Cheers)
I can see a physically perfect hooker right in the middle!


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

Scott said:


> Mind you, looking at my lovely Sumo Xmas card, (Cheers)
> I can see a physically perfect hooker right in the middle!


Thats Jesus thank you ... if you ask ATCO on the ' Sumo BHP ' thread he will confirm that we have help to acheive the times, he didnt consider Jesus!

Anyway, dont make light heart of this thread, were' all angry here....

Christmas - HUMBUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Merry Christmas to those who shop and those that will never shop with Sumo


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## Liam (Sep 5, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> My Head / wall : bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang, Ouch! it hurts.. Oh well bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,bang,


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Scott, Your on form tonight mate!


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Just to remind people what I said....



bladerider said:


> Thanks for the replies guys, even Andy
> 
> I stuck with Nemesis because I didnt feel I had a choice, and the likes of Abbey and GTart seemed expensive to just get them to do it. Obviously in the long run it turned out I could have had a full monty done just once by either instead of three bites at the cherry from my local tuners. Funnily enough thats another reason why I felt Nemesis would be ok - they were local and I knew people who work there.
> 
> ...





bladerider said:


> The only part of Andy's post that I found annoying was the customer service bit. He's a fine one to talk with midnight mapping sessions and the like !! Hardly your average day at the garage !! Andy speak his mind pretty bluntly as do I. Im the last person in the world gonna jump on him for having an opinion, even one I dont agree with.





bladerider said:


> When it went pop three weeks after I bought it I thought my life was over at the end of Woodbridge runway, smoke belching out the back. I couldnt figure out what I was gonna say to Karen
> 
> From that moment on I was kind of tied to Nemesis as money was tight, I couldnt afford to just give it to Abbeys and say "go for it" but I didnt want a standard spec rebuild as that seemed like a waste of money in my eyes - why spend out for no gain?? When that rebuild failed words were said, a "deal" was done and I then became the "Nemesis Skyline" but it still cost a fortune, and in the long run hasnt saved me much money - as I have admitted.
> 
> So I dont feel its fair to say I had more money than sense. I got boxed in a corner and have been pretty much screwed ever since !! But you keep on having hope that maybe this time it will all be ok. But obviously it never is.



Im happy, very happy actually, things are going quite nicely at the mo !! So happy crimbo from me, and yes I do remember what you said Andy, and I also remember you talking about your hooker problems   pmsl

Am I the only one with images of pots and kettles when Andy and Scott are discussing Jesus on a xmas card???   

Cheers,

J.


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## skymania (May 28, 2004)

Glad to hear it James 



bladerider said:


> Am I the only one with images of pots and kettles when Andy and Scott are discussing Jesus on a xmas card???


rofl


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Jesus*

Scott is an impersonator I tell ya..... its a wig...

I am the real deal.....


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

It does not seem like James has a grudge against Andy ,he has taken it like a man ,just because someone is in the Jap car Buisness like Andy he gets flamed for saying things that come over sour to some people ,WHY? for instance me being in the Hotel trade someone rants on the net for arguments sake about they stayed somewhere and the service was shite in the hotel ,I may say well you probebly had it coming anyway if you have that attitude that you have on here ,there then gonna say remind me not to stay at your place you nob,same sort of thing really .It does not mean that if you went to Andy Barnes on business he would act and say things like we all do on here ,I dont know the guy but I'm sure if I went there for parts I would be treated well as I'm sure most people would be.I think also James has had a horror story with his car and has taken it bloody well ,better than I could have done


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> Scott is an impersonator I tell ya..... its a wig...
> 
> I am the real Delia Smith - I cook a mean Fillet Mignon, and my celeriac mashed potato has to be tried to be believed !!!



Sucker !!!


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

AJFleming said:


> I think if people expect to get RUF style service then its unlikely without charging an enormous amount more then they currently do.


You see, unless you get out of the Skyline world and look around a bit, then you'll know how untrue that comment is.
If you knew how much Guy paid for his awesome conversion with Ruf and the subsequent service he gets from them, you'd be shocked. It's amazing when we consider how much crap we got from the past in Skylines.

If Skyline tuners want to charge as much as they want, fine - but you must ensure you meet the appropriate levels of customer service when paying 4 figure, sometimes 5 figure sums. Official Porsche dealerships charge less hourly than your GTR tuner does.

Sorry, don't mean to sound negative with you mate, just wanted to highlight an area I've experienced lately. I've been in Ferraris and Porsches non-stop these past 12 months and the level of service I receive is staggering - really. And to think that overall it costs me infinitely less than the Skyline is even more bewildering.

I'm sorry Fullonloon, I love you like the homeless child I never had, despite the cup of tea offered by your dad, but I agree with Durzel. It's unfortunate that we have no choice but to use the people in the UK.

Cem


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

They are not all bad though. I've had some very good service in the past at a very decent price. 

If you let people mess you around then you have nobody else to blame but yourself, but don't forget there has to be a little give and take. Its a balance you see and all you have to do is remember that.


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

To be fair (and a little shout out to gary @ GT-aRT) last time I was down there I asked for my gearbox oil to be changed and was advised that it didn't need to be changed and it would've been a waste of money. Only a small point but he could've easily just changed it and charged me whatever, but elected to tell me otherwise. Which was nice


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Wow and who said John Lennon was controversial next to Andy and Scott!

Cem, I take no offence, and maybe you are right. I just cant stump up the cash to buy a Porsche or Ferrari right now to see for sure. I have to say the RX7 world (which is of course the car I actually own and drive) is a very different world to the ultra competitive cut throat Skyline world. I think as its a growing scene (rotary scene that is) its much more friendly as people are willing to learn from one another and its all kind of friendly fun. In general my experience is that an RX7 is a LOT less expensive to run than a Skyline GTR people can say what they like about the engines but they do last pretty well when correctly tuned and at as little as £1800 for a FULL rebuild I aint complaining.........

Ant.


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Howsie said:


> They are not all bad though. I've had some very good service in the past at a very decent price.
> 
> If you let people mess you around then you have nobody else to blame but yourself, but don't forget there has to be a little give and take. Its a balance you see and all you have to do is remember that.


Well said.


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Don't get me wrong folks, we all have our favourites and our reasons for using them.
I'm a champion of good customer service and I deteste bad service - check my blowdog hall of fame and hall of shame....

Cem


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## Booty-licious (Nov 8, 2001)

bladerider said:


> Originally Posted by Andy Barnes
> Scott is an impersonator I tell ya..... its a wig...
> 
> I am the real Delia Smith - I cook a mean Fillet Mignon, and my celeriac mashed potato has to be tried to be believed !!!


Sorry guys but am I the only one that think's SO funny...I'm crying!!!    Sorry to but in with my scoffing at Bladey's post...Im leaving.

Claire

Very happy and pleased to be alive


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## AJFleming (Feb 25, 2003)

Cem,

I totally agree about those high street retailers mate, I have had many similar experiences. The thing is that because they are just monkeys that get paid and dont give a rats **** about the company they just treat customers like sh1t, thats what is so often great about small business. I mean which do you prefer a nice family run restaurant or Macdonalds? If people give me that ' I have to follow the book ' line it REALLY gets my blood boiling luckily I have managed to succeed in some unlikely situations by mentioning the words, 'small claims court, ombudsmen, responsibility, sales of goods act' 

Ant.


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## hodgie (Oct 23, 2003)

stealth said:


> .It does not mean that if you went to Andy Barnes on business he would act and say things like we all do on here ,I dont know the guy but I'm sure if I went there for parts I would be treated well as I'm sure most people would be.I think also James has had a horror story with his car and has taken it bloody well ,better than I could have done


I turned up at Sumo Power in Feb just to say hello as i was in the area and to put names to faces to people that i had spoken to. I was warmly greeted offered a cup of tea and Andy spent a good hour talking to me about things that i should do to my car before going to my fist trackday.
Ok Andy`s 1`st reply was abit harsh but some people seem to feel personally insulted. bit strange that, when it was posted to James who has also been quite harsh on this forum.

I`ve meet both people and from what i`ve seen they are both very similar.
(apart from the fact that one looks like Jesus and the other cant get his fat **** into a Lamborgini)  

The one thing that has been very become very evident on this post is how pationate everyone is about there Skylines and how far they are willing to go to look after them and long may that continue


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

Ant has a very valid point! The government is milking us dry at the moment. The amount of money that is paid in taxes is huuuge. In addtion to this (an im not going back on what i said before) tuners have to include wages, building insurance, 3rd party insurance, utility bills including electric and telephone, advertising and that all comes before wages. Lets not forget living in the UK is not cheap by any means. As Skylines are luxury cars, tuners charge luxury prices. We should all think about the consequences of buying a skyline as they are not cheap to run. If we wanted a reliable sports car then we would leave them as standard not that anyone does  The point is we have to choose our tuner wisely! With regards to parts, yes tuners charge a lot for them but as i said above, if a tuner fits lets say a poer fc and it looses the settings then im sure the company would cover the costs of replacing it straight away without you or me going through the hassle of sending things to and from Japan. Some companies are cheaper like Greenline, Nengun etc BUT what tends to happen is tuners charge you more to fit the item and this is what i have found in the past.

Gez


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

AJFleming said:


> Yunis, did I not give you advice over the phone, was I helpful or rude? Only you can answer, I try to give the best customer service possible. I also represent a garage and I KNOW the financial realities of running a garage. People are so quick to judge when something goes wrong. I just speak my mind I guess like Andy and Bladey but without an opposing opinion there is no debate. As I have said I think Bladey is probably justified in his complaints, thats what this topic is about. I also think some of the comments others have made about garages are true and fair, some like yours were in my opinion over the top and unfair. No offence intended Yunis but I disagree with you thats all.
> I was not quick to 'judge' Andy I simply put that I disagreed with him and thats all.
> 
> Ant.


Yup you did and was very greatfull for it! I appreciated the fact you did so outside business hours. But just time your come across a bit different...

but cool...agree to disagree


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

AJFleming said:


> I think I came to the conclusion that you were talking about £40-50 +VAT being too high as, AFAIK none of the uk Skyline tuners charge over £50+VAT per hour. So you can understand my error, however I did jump in and get a little defensive and I appologise for that.
> 
> People seem to be generally upset with tuners, but pretty much all my experience has been good, if they are too expensive then I ring around elsewhere. There is one tuner (not a specific Skyline tuner) that I found to be extremely rude and arrogant but I would dream naming them. I have dealt with RE:Worx, Abbey Motorsport, RX motors, Rod bell, Richard Bell and RC developments. I have also had limited dealings (mostly talking) with GT:ART and Geforce motorsport - they were knowlegdable and friendly (but I cannot comment on how good they are as I have never really used them properly) All of them I have found to be decent people and comitted to doing a good job, if they are too expensive then I will ring around perhaps but I still respect them for what they do. Dont forget all of the time that they do things for their customers without getting paid, technical advice, quoting, buying advice, help when you are doing DIY work etc. I think if people expect to get RUF style service then its unlikely without charging an enormous amount more then they currently do. We are not superhuman, we are just people trying to make a living, and quite honetly thats about all I am going to say on the matter.
> 
> Ant.



Ant I dont have a problem with 40-50 quid p/h, i know thats the going rate, but when you start talking double or triple those figures you have to stop and seriously think...

But i guess if punters dont stop and think and simply keep paying silly amounts then companies will continue to feed off this and keep putting their prices up, or charge higher than average or normal rates...


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Andy Barnes said:


> Scott is an impersonator I tell ya..... its a wig...
> 
> I am the real deal.....


Damn right mate!  

Why not have some Jesus logos on your car next year, along with some quotes from the bible!!


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Blow Dog said:


> You see, unless you get out of the Skyline world and look around a bit, then you'll know how untrue that comment is.
> If you knew how much Guy paid for his awesome conversion with Ruf and the subsequent service he gets from them, you'd be shocked. It's amazing when we consider how much crap we got from the past in Skylines.
> 
> If Skyline tuners want to charge as much as they want, fine - but you must ensure you meet the appropriate levels of customer service when paying 4 figure, sometimes 5 figure sums. Official Porsche dealerships charge less hourly than your GTR tuner does.
> ...


Good points Cem and agree with you mate..

Problem is as mentioned before if all the skyline owners keep paying the silly money charged by some then there will never be an improvement, in both parts and labour costs..and to think some are making 100% mark up on power fc's and GT2530's for example is worrying...


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Durzel said:


> To be fair (and a little shout out to gary @ GT-aRT) last time I was down there I asked for my gearbox oil to be changed and was advised that it didn't need to be changed and it would've been a waste of money. Only a small point but he could've easily just changed it and charged me whatever, but elected to tell me otherwise. Which was nice


but yeah its nice to know that they didnt just do it and charged you x amount... many would have just done so


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## Fullonloon (Feb 18, 2002)

Blow Dog said:


> I'm sorry Fullonloon, I love you like the homeless child I never had, despite the cup of tea offered by your dad, but I agree with Durzel. Cem


That's worrying, in what way?  



Blow Dog said:


> It's unfortunate that we have no choice but to use the people in the UK.


I agree, not as a collective we, but from a neutral point of view. I'm still shocked that the major jap tuners haven't established a factory over here as they would clean up in Europe.

My argument was and still is that the markup on products is good business on the part of the tuners. While there is a customer base prepared to spunk the cash then prices are going to stay high. If they import themselves they will save money but have no fall back in the UK to go to.

Durzel was concentrating on the markup entirley rather than the service on top and the value offered. I was pointing out goods and service go hand in hand when buying from UK based tuners. Obviously, as is evident, and in my own experiance, the required level of customer service is not always reached but that's a different argument.

Q


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## Scott (Jun 29, 2001)

Yunis A said:


> Damn right mate!
> 
> Why not have some Jesus logos on your car next year, along with some quotes from the bible!!



Thanks for your input 'Anis Y'!!!!


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Scott said:


> Thanks for your input 'Anis Y'!!!!


Your welcome dude, anytime!

But I was talking about Andy Jesus Barnes..


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## -[c0Ka|Ne]- (Jan 1, 2004)

I really feel for you Bladey, I don't even own a car but that post really hit home, my hair nearly fell out while reading it


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

-[c0Ka|Ne]- said:


> I really feel for you Bladey, I don't even own a car but that post really hit home, my hair nearly fell out while reading it


If thats your girlfriend you are offering, would you accept an R33? 
and how about the next page - what happens then?


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## ZXSpectrum (Feb 27, 2002)

You guys crack me up! 

Andy... Your Prozzie Analagy was almost as dodgy as my burger one in the TOTB4 thread...

I am not a fan of Xmas but all you guys have a good one... 

Paul


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## -[c0Ka|Ne]- (Jan 1, 2004)

liquidculture said:


> If thats your girlfriend you are offering, would you accept an R33?
> and how about the next page - what happens then?


I wouldn't mind an R33 GTR, what colour we talking about?


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Parts*

I guess you could also liken buying your own parts and expecting a tuner to charge the same to fit it...

Go down to your local chip shop with your own potatoes, er mate, fry these for me will you....


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> I guess you could also liken buying your own parts and expecting a tuner to charge the same to fit it...
> 
> Go down to your local chip shop with your own potatoes, er mate, fry these for me will you....


Actually I wouldn't. I was quoted for some parts and fitting for my car, the cost of the same parts was twice what I could source them for new. I asked if I could source the parts and then pay the tuner extra on his hourly rate to fit them - and still save myself over £1.5k - he refused, it wasn't 'worth his time'

second hand parts I can understand being a risk for the tuner (yet quite a lot of them supply these?) but not new identical ones.

Simon


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## Simonh (May 24, 2002)

*just occured to me............*



Andy Barnes said:


> I guess you could also liken buying your own parts and expecting a tuner to charge the same to fit it...
> 
> Go down to your local chip shop with your own potatoes, er mate, fry these for me will you....


where did you source the parts that Gary fitted for the R34 Andy - through GT-ART or direct from HKS?

Simon


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## twinturboch (Mar 21, 2004)

Andy Barnes said:


> I guess you could also liken buying your own parts and expecting a tuner to charge the same to fit it...
> 
> Go down to your local chip shop with your own potatoes, er mate, fry these for me will you....


Thats different. He has to peel the potatoes  

Seriously. I know garages that have fitted parts for me that I have bought elsewhere and not charged extra for the labour. If someone wants to charge a higher hourly rate because I didn't buy parts off him then he can fcuk off. He should be charging an hourly rate that he can afford to run the business on without forcing his customers to buy overpriced parts from him. I would rather they were honest and put the labour charges up a little and made the parts more affordable to reflect real world values. That way I could get the parts I can fit myself from a reputable place for a decent price (air filter), but when I couldn't fit it myself (cams), I could go to the same reputable place and pay them what they deserve to fit the parts. Instead people buy the parts they can fit themselves from places like Takakaira and the ones they can't fit from you guys. I think if it was done this way, more peole would end up keeping their custom in the U.K. and in the end, it would make you guys more money. Not trying to be rude, just constructive comments.


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## gertmuppet (Oct 17, 2003)

Andy Barnes said:


> go down to your local chip shop with your own potatoes, er mate, fry these for me will you....



andy barnes, you're a stirring git, i have just tried this for me lunch today and been told to **** off,  now i'm going to starve all over christmas


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## mattb (Feb 12, 2002)

> I guess you could also liken buying your own parts and expecting a tuner to charge the same to fit it...


What utter b0ll0cks. I have owned all sorts of cars and used many garages around the country, due to me moving so much, and every one of them has always quoted me for parts and if they were excessive actually recommended I buy parts from somewhere else. In some cases my local garage has asked me how much I could get the parts for and checked their systems to see if they could get it cheaper for me and if they could only match it they have "discounted" it a bit. This way they get a bit of markup, I usually get the part quicker and everyone is happy. 

Admittedly these garages were not "tuners" but I think that says more about their attitude to long term customer service than me wanting to get the cheapest price for EXACTLY THE SAME part. Wake up and realise you are part of a global market just like every other company on this damned planet  I think only the "mechanical" trades are still stuck with this antiquated attitude and it stinks of "I'm taking my ball home if you don't play the way I want to"


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

Chaps,

I agree with some of the statements made above. Cem you mention that Official Porsche service centres charge less than skyline tuners....The last time i was at Chiswick Service Centre the hourly rate was near enough in the 3 figure category. I dont really know any skyline tuner to charge that much. I also think it is unfair that any of us compare companies like porsche to Abbey, GTart etc as they do not have the backing of a multi billion pound corporation behind them. However, i do agree that tuners should quote an hourly rate which is fair and not one that doubles if parts have been bought from other sources..In my mind this is unfair trading because your normal joe bloggs with a gtr starts to phone around looking for skyline tuners and he gets quoted £50 per hour which may be the cheapest one of the lot only to be present with a bill of ££££ to fit a few parts the guy bought from another source....
I think tuners should take this into consideration and maybe explain themselves on why they do this.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Ive always sourced my own parts and a lot cheaper than even from retailers. thats just meif there is an option to buy parts ate a cheaper rate then why not take advantage of it?

As for tuners charging extra that is a major ripp of in its self, they chage an hourly rate, for labour, its not going to make fitting the part more difficult for them just because you brought the part else where. It high time those who practise this stop and about time the punters put their foot down and go else where....the tuning companies will soon realise.


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2003)

I dont think tuners change their hourly rates, they just try and hide it by quoting a different lenght of time to fit the part... For example Tuner X who supplies a boost controller charges 1.5 hours to fit it.....If the part was supplied by us they would charge mabe 3 hours....


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

-[c0Ka|Ne]- said:


> I wouldn't mind an R33 GTR, what colour we talking about?


Silver, but I'd need to see more of the girlfriend before I commit myself


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Gez said:


> I dont think tuners change their hourly rates, they just try and hide it by quoting a different lenght of time to fit the part... For example Tuner X who supplies a boost controller charges 1.5 hours to fit it.....If the part was supplied by us they would charge mabe 3 hours....


Definitely - how else are they going to skim extra money off the customer, if they can no longer get it through the sale of the parts? It's not like they can stick an unexplainable "administration charge" onto the invoice. It's either that, or as Simonh says they might just come out and say "not worth my time"... which, to me, is tantamount to an admission that they are profiting from the sale of the parts, which is the crux of this issue in my opinion.

Businesses are businesses at the end of the day, they want to make profits, etc... 100%+ profit on a single tuning part, I will say again, doesn't sit well with me however.

Incidentally, I've been quoted an inflated fitting/tuning cost for a privately sourced PowerFC in the past because it "would have a locked map" (on a brand new unit?).. not on my current Skyline I hasten to add. So, what Gez says does happen.


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## Jabberwock (Jun 24, 2003)

Interesting array of comments in this thread, although there seems to be a common idea that tuners (in general) do not wear their accounting practices on their sleeves.

If I were one, neither would I. It does grate a bit paying over the odds for parts when you know that you can source them cheaper......but......there are lots of other factors in play: supply and demand, how specialised is the job, reputation, trust, to name but a few.

I think Howsie probably said it best - do a deal 
After all, if you can't get a quote that you're happy with then walk  

I disagree with any business taking advantage of a customer but we do have to look out for ourselves.

I sincerely wish that all this malarkey cost a lot less too!!!!! but I think I'll be brown bread before that comes true  

Merry Christmas   :smokin:  

Do tuners have January sales? Only I was just thinking........


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

You're right of course Jabberwock  I don't mind paying extra for a good job, and have done and will continue to do so. 

Merry Christmas everyone!


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Simonh said:


> where did you source the parts that Gary fitted for the R34 Andy - through GT-ART or direct from HKS?
> 
> Simon



HAHAHA !!!

What a load of bunkum !!!

Parts are parts, labour is labour. Thats WHY they are seperate on an invoice.

If the tuner wants to make more money he should trim his cloth more neatly as to fit in with overall pricing. If the difference between buying everything myself and then getting tuner A to fit it is less than 15% more than getting tuner A to supply and fit then obviously thats worth doing as all the comeback rests on their shoulders as well as the hassle free factor. Trouble is only a few of the tuners seem to accept that they sometimes make mistakes and honour any kind of warranty.

If the tuner wants to play the d1ck and charge more for fitting the same piece of kit as some petulant comeback that you dare say his parts markup is too high then more people should name and shame.

I feel like all that ever happens round here is people all shout boo haaa and then ten minutes later carry on taking it up the ahse.

J.


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## cokey (Sep 11, 2003)

Merry Christmas Bladey!
Hope next year is special for you mate!
cheers cokey


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## -[c0Ka|Ne]- (Jan 1, 2004)

liquidculture said:


> Silver, but I'd need to see more of the girlfriend before I commit myself


Haha leave it with me


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

bladerider said:


> I feel like all that ever happens round here is people all shout boo haaa and then ten minutes later carry on taking it up the ahse.
> 
> J.


Rather grim metaphor but cant help agreeing, being relatively new (9 months or so - should be dropping any day now) , that does seem to be the case

Happy Xmas to one & all !!!


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## TonyT1965 (Nov 11, 2004)

just ask the tuner for an hourly quote for labour, and the cost per hr, THEN ask them for a price for the part, if its too much then tell them u'll provide your own part and hold em to the labour quote, simple...

if they dont want your business they will wriggle out of their initial labour quote, no problem, name and shame em on here and move on and use someone else..

labour costs are labour costs surely???

all the best..

Tony


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

yup sure is....that what i was thinking of doing


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

When I had my stage 1 mods done a few months ago ,they were fitted by a local garage that has delt with tuning sports cars for years I orderd the whole lot from Abbey and my local Guy said get them to ship straight to our place so I would not have to load the whole lot up in my van .They were pleased too that they did not have to order them as well and were more than happy just for the labour charges


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

Another satisfied customer.


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## spudgun (Sep 3, 2001)

i dont think skyline tuners are alone in charging a lot of dough for parts , all car manufacturers do it.
and lets be honest, if the jobs done right and the customer service is spot on, who here thinks "yeah, but i could have done it cheaper myself"? i dont. i know the price im quoted, and i accept it. skyline tuning is not my area of expertise, and like james, i rely on a tuners to do the job right. wether thats right or wrong, its immaterial, the point of james' thread is...

he was done up the gary by a car tuner, then they went back for sloppy seconds and did him again!
he was ripped off bigtime, the car seems to have been bodged, he has no come back against them, and has left a bad taste in his mouth and empty wallet.
how the hell can a company have someone spend so much money on an engine, and then not provide some kind of warranty on it? or treat him like that? i think it sucks big time.
personally i think a lot of tuners need to get their act together. you cant make out your the big i am tuner, then have a customer go through what he has and just laugh it off.

nemesis arent the only ones capable of this behaviour, and it seems the more you speak to people, the more widespread it is. who can you trust these days it seems, sadly.

would a franchise mercedes or bmw dealer be allowed to get away with this??


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

I have to say that a Mercedes dealer does get away with that - I had a Merc. people carrier for a while and apart from it being the worst vehicle I have ever owned (absolutely terrible build quality on the interior and awful ride) the service from the main dealer was just as dissapointing, not doing what I asked for, fitting the wrong parts, not being able to source parts, to fit a new plastic clip (about 1" long) to hold the rear fold out table, I was told I had to buy a new table (about £400) and so on. The staff were useless, it was all too much trouble for them, they were slow and didnt do the work on time, the vehicle came back dirtier than when it went to them with oil on the steering wheel and carpets, and I could go on. 
You are tied to them or you lose the warranty (for what thats worth) and I would never, ever buy another Merc.
I also drove one of the new SL (a 350 I think) that a friend bought and bearing in mind it cost over £70,000, it was a big dissapointment, very dull and not that good build quality inside. Conversely another friend bought a 1 year old Porsche 911 (is it the 916?) and I drove that. about the same cost new, and what a car - the difference was chalk and cheese. Both very similar in what you get - two seater sports convertable - but I know which one I would have.
As I said I would never buy another Merc. the cars are dissapointing and the customer service (down here anyway) is abysmal. For the same money there are loads of better cars out there and you can be treated correctly, not all garages and dealers are bad, the upmarket ones sometimes treat you like s**t because you cant go anywhere else.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

*This Thread.*

Guys

I know that I am possible going to commit financial suicide replying to this thread but ive had enough.

Getting back to the original thread, ie Bladeys problem ,I can tell you that I have been bitten by the same original problem that his engine had, The pistons that he and subsequently I used were boxed with the wrong boring instructions. The end result being too much clearance and a smokey engine.The difference is that despite this job, in my case being done for a trade customer and a unit only repair,we are removing the engine and rebuilding it with proper clearances and pistons of a different manufacture.Without charge!

The comments from Cem about skyline "tuners" service Quote "sucks", I am sorry but I wont accept.Cem had exceptional service from us including picking up the car from central London basement car parks and the like with flat battery and a puncture.I dont know were he has had his Porsche and Ferrari serviced but I was quoted £110 per hr labour at a well known Ferrari dealership and £95 per hr from several porsche service centres I phoned.Perhaps he is getting a preferential rate and treatment!!!!.I think this snipe at among others an original banner advertiser on this site SUCKS!!!!

As regards labour rates ,we charge £60 per hr . This has been for the last 3 mths ,we were £55 before that. Ok Rod is £40 per hr but I would suggest that his premises expenses are half what ours are .probable his labour costs are pro rata proportunately 25% cheaper.I doubt wether he has a £25000 insurance premium. All this stuff is cheaper in the North West, even beer!

Now before you start I am not saying there is anything wrong with Rods workmanship,premises etc, after all I once employed him and was very sorry to see him go, for personal reasons as it goes.

Whilst were on about labour rates I have noticed that several of you "Keyboard Warriors" are in the IT game. Well with my experience you turn up at a customers with your £1000 laptop and a case full of CD,s and charge £80 per hr. The majority of the work is done while you are drinking coffee!
We have workshop facilities, equipment that would cost getting on for 1/2 million to replace with new, and I know cause I have just done a list for my insurance broker, A small fleet of courtesy cars, a transporter.and 3 development cars. and only charge £60 per hr,its a bargain.
Durzel

You are on about your £1000 power fc from Middlehursts. Well I got to looking thro some old invoices from Apexi and we paid 3yrs ago the Yen equivalent of £700! Ok ,today we are about to receive some fc,s we ordered 3 mths ago and they will cost about the yen equivelent of £450 in japan including the commander.We then have to ship them, pay the duty ,handling charge etc for them to arrive in stock for say about £500 We would expect to retail them for around £625, in stock,garaunteed. Indeed about £1000 plus vat fitted , mapped and complete with before and after dyno sheets.

As we have found there is a very high attrition rate with these units we reckon 1 in 20 has a problem that is a further bit out of the profit.We would give you a new one and return yours for repair which in some cases could take 3/4 months.

Whilst we are talking about japanese import"gifts" and duty avoidance, be careful, we have had 2 visits from customs officers who were obviously looking at the problem.

On the subject of supplying your own parts you must remember that we often quote a quite low labour time to offset the parts prices.With some of our suppliers we cannot quote discounted prices. Case in Question is the typical engine rebuild. We normally Quote between 40 to 44 hours,£2500 approx, for this job when in reallity it takes 60 plus hours.this is taken care of by what we earn out of the parts, You cant have it all ways.We dont charge exorbitent prices for so called "special" parts which are as they come in the box. We wont discuss discounts over the phone but will always be willing to discuss a "deal" with personal callers.
You must remember tho that we strive to be nice people to do business with but we also like customers that are nice to do business with.
Also despite being out and out car nuts,skylines in particular, we do need to make a return on our massive investment. Both Mark and I take less out of the business than our top paid technicians!!

We fully appreciate that our customer service needs to improve and we are constantly striving towards that goal. If we please you tell others, if we dont please tell us , but not on this forum.

Paul Cawson,

Thanks for pulling up this old thread,I will discuss this with you personally when I see you sometime. I cant comment because it could be subjudice, but there is always two sides to every story and you dont HAVE to do work for anybody.You also do unto others what they do to you.If someone is abusive whats wrong with being abusive back.

Tony


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## Chris Wilson (Aug 20, 2001)

Abbey M/S

A nicely presented and balanced thread. I am a one man band race car / engine builder that also likes to work on imports, mainly Supra TT's and some Skylines and other performance import stuff. I find the true race customers have a much more realistic grasp of the risks of having an engine modded to produce nearly double the intended output. I don't know why though....

My biggest problem at the moment is people want to bolt basic single turbo kits on to Supras, which are now cheap to buy, as are the single kits. They seem to then expect them to run perfectly with either stock ecu's or some horrible signal fudging kludges, whereas a race customer is happy to spend 900 quid a day on Swindon Racing Engines dyno having even a basic N/A 4 pot race motor mapped to run reliably in the top 2/3 rds of the throttle range. To map a road car engine is a lot more involved, as you know, but for some reason road car customers have a mental and financial block about mapping time and costs.

I too would have a different labour rate if someone were to supply their own bits and i wouldn't feel at all guilty about it. Like us tuners, customers are the same, some are good to deal with, some OK, some are a nightmare. C'est la vie.


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## Guy (Jun 27, 2001)

A brave post by Tony, with sentiments probably shared by all the other tuners and one which I almost entirely actually agree.

The biggest problems that Bladey and Durzel and myself had, since we are the three cases mentioned most in this context came about for one reason, we let people who didn't know GTRs do the work and we all suffered. 

As far as parts go, if you want to fit the parts yourself, get a deal and avoid the taxes if you want. Otherwise the prices are what they are, they are always stated up-front. I can buy vegetables really cheap, but if I want them as a side-dish in top restaurant, they are not 75p/lb...........  

The biggest problem these guys deal with though is that every car in the UK has a different spec, so every job any of these guys do ends up being a custom job, since they never start with the same car. No Mercedes, BMW, Porsche or Ferrari dealer will tune your car, so they're not relevent comparisons. It's not the servicing aspect of the cars work thats goes wrong, but the tuning, and believing that 600bhp is cheap, lasts a long time, or that it won't destroy many other parts of the car.

As for the pricing and who is making the money, the people who make it are the Japs who sell it at high prices in Japan (often bought from England), the importers who add their 10-20%+, the taxman and customs. The last time I looked neither Tony, Mark, Gary, Rod or any of the others were driving round in Bentleys smoking big cigars. :smokin: - they all struggle to make a living.

As for Porsche, yes, I get great service from my Porsche dealer, but they sell about 300 new cars a year alone, making up to £10k a car profit, so they can afford great showrooms. They also will not tune cars as mentioned so every job is a known job, it's a completely different type of operation.

I learned a lot from my GTR Tuning experiences and had some great times and I still watch with interest from the sides, but my advice still stands (which I gave to Bladey) - do not tune your car beyond 550bhp unless you can afford to write very big cheques without worry. Beyond 600bhp is a different world to the 400-550bhp one in terms of expense and reliability.

The other thing is do not try to use new people or new methods. If something is proven, use it. It will be cheaper and more reliable. Research is expensive.

Guy


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## dan0h (Jul 26, 2002)

Chris Wilson said:


> ...whereas a race customer is happy to spend 900 quid a day on Swindon Racing Engines dyno having even a basic N/A 4 pot race motor mapped to run reliably in the top 2/3 rds of the throttle range. To map a road car engine is a lot more involved, as you know, but for some reason road car customers have a mental and financial block about mapping time and costs...


Agreed, nearly all the customers that sit in with me in the dyno think it should be an hours work, but modern management systems are not for the faint of heart, especially as I strive to make all mapped cars as driveable as a factory road car... Road cars are considerably harder to map than racers. Especially those with MAP as opposed to MAF based management systems...


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## Pavlo (Sep 12, 2002)

*Tony is bang on!*

It is becoming increasingly popular for people to buy their parts direct from effectively retail outlets in the US and Japan. And has been mentioned they often avoid VAT and duty with "gift" or "warranty return" labelling. Alternatively we are seeing increasing numbers of "group buy heros". No, you are not a hero, you are a disguised trader skimming your cut off the top before passing some of the savings to the members of your group buy.

What does this mean? Well, I think there is going to be increasing numbers of people bringing there bargain tax avoided parts to extablishments and having them fitted. These parts may not be recommended by the workshop used, and have no track record, but when things don't go smoothly, the workshop owners are expected to pick up the tab when it comes to manhours to resolve fitting issues, or replacement parts.

If your cheap-bought-direct-from-japan-turbo-kit doesn't fit, any trader shouldn't have to spend their time correcting someone elses part quality or workmanship issues. Conversley, a good trader will attempt to provide parts, or kits of parts which he has direct experience of (of course there has to be a first time for everything), or even developed in house and in doing so can ensure quality control before even fitting the parts. The customer gets a better package of parts and full warranty backup while the trader has higher confidence the customer will not be back with problems that must be fixed under warranty.

Paul


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

Paul Cawson,

Thanks for pulling up this old thread,I will discuss this with you personally when I see you sometime. I cant comment because it could be subjudice, but there is always two sides to every story and you dont HAVE to do work for anybody.You also do unto others what they do to you.If someone is abusive whats wrong with being abusive back.

Tony[/QUOTE]


Tony
As the thread is only a few months old and on a well read public forum I think a lot of people would have read it already. I dont think it hurts to discuss problems when they arise and the fact that you have been bothered to post shows you are still interested in popular opinion not the high and mighty approach implied in the post.


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Well,

I thought it was a brave and honest post from Tony. He deserves mucho respect posting anything as he just leaves himself open for cheap shots like Pauls.

Paul,

Sorry mate, but posting some nonsense from a twat with a turbo'd integra who believs fine tuning a turbo converted car involves a few turns of a nut as opposed to a proper controller and then bullies his way to what he wanted means absolutely zero in the context of this thread.

J.


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

When threads have been running a while they will diversify with time. And no the link was not intended as a shot at Abbey as I offered no opinion. We have sons who are starting to modify cars and if they are going to get bad service, looked down on for running cheaper cars I want to know why. If its all about how much you spend on your car then best they go buy Porsches.


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## Peter (Jun 27, 2001)

Despite one major problem that I've had in the past with a different tuner, I find myself siding with Tony on this. I run my own building company and we need the overheads and profit which we add to materials that we supply for our business to survive. If every customer decided to supply their own materials, we would be forced to substantially increase our labour rates to compensate for that loss of revenue.

I simply cannot understand what it must be like to put together a (say) 600bhp car and hand it over to, let's be honest, somebody who may not have an ounce of mechanical sympathy and then have to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong or get publically berrated if you don't and suggest that may be it wasn't your fault that it went pop. This would be even worse if you didn't supply the parts used. Frankly, if I were running a tuning company and people wanted to supply their own parts, I would either refuse to fit them or at least make them sign a disclaimer.

James already knows that I think this thread is hypocritical. I even think that Cem's comments were ill advised after hearing about the problems he had with his RS, the grass is most certainly not always greener on the other side. I'm not saying that everything is perfect in the Skyline tuning scene but I honestly don't think that it's that bad either. It's so easy to jump on that bandwagon without thinking....


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## Blow Dog (Sep 4, 2001)

Perhaps because of my own poor wording, I seem to have been misquoted on a lot of the stuff I said.

Firstly, I'll apologise for comparing GTR hourly rate prices similar to Porsche hourly rate charges. What I should have said was Porsche _Tuner_ prices. Still, I understand it's a different market and I guess by what's being said here, there are different expectations.

I have not got any problems with paying top prices for quality components and service. My ISP provides me with a solution I could obtain elsewhere for a quarter of the price - but I get the service so I pay for it. I get my PC built by an independent PC builder and it costs me maybe twice what I'd pay from Dell - but I get the service. I buy books from an independent store for the same reasons and pay a little more. This isn't about me but you get the idea.

Any issues I've had with any tuner have never been for public consumption. I've preferred to deal with them face to face with the company in question and have always enjoyed a good relationship with all of them. I've used many as I've not wanted to appear affiliated with anyone, although I've probably used Abbey more than anyone else by a long shot.

I’m not stupid enough to attack a sponsor of this site. It was my discussions with Mark many years ago that enabled me to buy this site based on his pledge to sponsor me, something nobody else was able to do – or at least put their money where their mouths were. I had absolutely no problems with my GTR’s whilst they were in your hands and apart from a rogue Mines ECU which was replaced by you for an Apexi (In Germany at the side of the Autobahn!!) I remember no further issues. 

I’m desperately trying not to point any fingers here, but this is my way of saying don’t take it personally. I’ve paid 5 figure sums to companies in this industry that have left me bewildered from the absence of any service and that’s where I have issues – not with quality of work, but that whole ‘feel good’ factor. Your last minute rushes and pickups were always most appreciated – and I remember always being quoted for flatbed pickups, they were never free.

Incidentally, Peter mentioned my GT3RS. For those who don't know, something blew a hole through the crankcase and since my purchase of the car, I was aware of an oil leak but was told it wasn't serious. This is until the car went in to be repaired at which point they diagnosed the problem. My car was in a Porsche garage for 10 weeks. It became obvious that we were to reach no amicable resolve so I requested a buy-back for the car to which they agreed. I was even offered monetary compensation.

My 550 is giving me a lot of problems, too, mainly electrical. It’s been back to the dealer 3 times and is due to go back again. But I’m not fussed as all the work is warranted and it’s collected, washed and delivered in the back of a lorry as promised on the day, every time.

Fact is, I’m not worried if a problem comes up because I know I’ve got the back up and support from the person who sold the car/part/service to me to fall back on. Personally, I think James’ situation sucks as he seems to have no support from anyone that should be giving it. This is my problem and the number one reason I do not own a GTR now.

I shouldn’t be comparing GTR tuners to Ferrari and Porsche dealers, but when we’re paying more to mess about with Skylines, I just felt like the service sector was a bit lacking.

I sold the Nur because I got scared driving a car which had cost me nearly £70k without any warranty or dealer support. It was too much a risk for me. 

Ironically, I sold the car that never gave me any problems and to this day, I regret selling it to Nito – but we live and learn.

I’ve also learnt what a rogue master ‘perception’ can be. My work is also somewhat related to the IT sector. But I, too, pay through the fruits of my labour – sitting here at 4.00am on Boxing day I’m trying to get a project finished in time for the new year and having recently been diagnosed with RSI, I’m finding it hard to focus both on my work and the forums hot topics! 

It would be foolish of us to assume there’s nothing to learn from this thread. There are a lot of people who’ve given their opinions on the scene today and we’ve also had a frank reply from one of the leaders of the GTR tuning scene.

Abbey,
Would you ever consider warrantying your work? 

Cem, get some sleep, wake up, read forum, shake head at all the crap you wrote the night before…..


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## canman (Jul 7, 2001)

Don't know about you guys moaning about the price of tuners............flights to NZ for Mark to come out to tune my car cost about 1000 quid....but it's worth every cent.

Seriously.......if a guys fixing your washing machine, or TV or whatever it might be and he needs some parts.....we don't all rush of trying to find if we can get them cheaper to save us some money do we ??

The reality is that the tuners are charging a "Normal" chargeout rate and discounting if you bring more business their way by purchasing parts...........it's just a perception or the way it's pitched, but that's the reality.

Old saying, but a good one, you get what you pay for............end of story.....


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## NITO (Nov 19, 2003)

Blow Dog said:


> Ironically, I sold the car that never gave me any problems and to this day, I regret selling it to Nito


I haven't treated it that badly Cem have I ??  

Wouldn't it be ironic if you sold these fully dealer backed up cars for another GTR (Z-Tune?!? :smokin: ) which is reliable enough in the first place not to need dealer backup and warranty  ! - just a thought.


As has been already pointed out, the main disparity in parts prices is duty and vat, those people buying privately from abroad are in the main not declaring these so everything will illegally work out like 20-25%+ cheaper. 

Also the Japanese manufacturers are generally fairly stingy with discounts anyway and since they dont have vat in Japan everything is super pricey as you can't knock this off the Jp prices when you export out of Japan. - Blame the Government, not the tuners -.

Don't think that Tuners get things any cheaper as most will be importing the goods in legitimately since it would be foolish for a business to defraud customs and not a worthwhile risk to take, so of course it'll cost more through these legitimate channels. You can't complain about tuners for conducting their businesses legitimately.

If you want to run the risk of underdeclaring goods and defrauding the tax man, fine, it'll only be a matter of time before this is closed down as it is illegal and destroying legitimate UK businesses through an unlevel playing field.

As for labour rates, they are wholly justified (as per Tony's post). Would many of you do this sort of work for £60 an hour? (ie have the space, inclination, skill and tooling required). If the answer is yes, then no doubt you already do the work yourself!

However, I sympathise with Bladey, choose your tuner carefully, cheapest is rarely ever best, (you've seen Abbey's response to the same problem faced by Bladey and Nemesis) horses for courses. 

Just my opinion,

Nito


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

*Paul Cawson*

Paul.

I am far from being high and mighty, I been in the business of repairing motorcars for 40 yrs next year. What I object to is someone who , as far as I know, has no axe to grind with me and yet at the slightest provocation stirs the Sh.t.
My aim in business is to keep abreast of the developments in my world 0f skylines because I am at the end of it an enthusiast. If I please most of the people most of the time then thats fine by me!
High and mighty- those of you that visit our workshop may have seen me sweeping up ,making the tea,undersealing a car,or working in my beloved engine shop away from the customers.
For sure if people are abusive to me I have been known to retaliate in a violent manner.Cant do that any more tho, the beak told me last time ,something about a custodial sentence ,didnt hear it all, bit mut and jeff in my old age.

Cem , Guy,Henry, Bladey,Tokyo, Ronnie, weve had our ups and downs but still I would class them as friends. Dont worry Cem ,I wont drive past you on the motorway when I see you broken down, Ill winch you up in the back.   , Got a different truck now, all enclosed so you wont have to blush.

Getting better at typing now, might post more often, there agagain might not.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

*Yunis*

Yunis,
Sorry I forgot, Next time I see you I,ll lend you my hearing aid.Also while your at it stop telling people we charge £17000 labour to build an engine. Look forward to meeting when we carry out your 4 wheel alignment.

Tony


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## Daz (Aug 14, 2001)

As a spin on this (as this thread is about bad service) all i've ever had is great service. My chosen tuner has been nothing but good to me in all the years I've been going to them - and I class them as friends rather than "my tuners" ... as in my opinion, we've become good mates.

I've not got anything like as much cash as many people on this forum, but the amount I spend does not detract from the service I get.

When I had my Pulsar and I had a magazine shoot coming up my car let me down (alternator had gone) - 2 days before the shoot. My car was picked up the very next morning, fixed and then dynoed (so I had some sheets for the magazine write-up) and back to me the day before the shoot.

On my Skyline a diff let go not long before I had the Andrew Walsh driving day ... no time to get it fixed (as parts had to come from Japan) so I was loaned a Nismo item ... allowing me to do the driving course.

My turbo's let go a couple of months ago ... and a deal was worked out for me ... they didn't have to do it - but they did ... and I am extremely grateful. My car was collected - EARLIER than originally planned and the car was back in time for me to make the grasshopper Xmas meet (once again the car had been slotted in to an already very busy schedule). 

MANY times have my cars been slotted into already hectic schedules to help me out ... to enable me to have the car back as soon as is possible.

I am always greeted with enthusiasm and I'm always given time (to ask what are probably stupid questions).


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

Abbey M/S said:


> Yunis,
> Sorry I forgot, Next time I see you I,ll lend you my hearing aid.Also while your at it stop telling people we charge £17000 labour to build an engine. Look forward to meeting when we carry out your 4 wheel alignment.
> 
> Tony


Absolutely, maybe we can clear up any misconceptions. 

But ill be giving you a call in mid jan/feb...need to get the wheel alignment done


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## paul cawson (Jul 3, 2003)

The intension was not to create problems for you these forums are for discussions about our vehicles and experiences with them.. I thought the posting of the link would air the situation. I had read it and it on face value it gave me negative opinion .I have never used your company and can only go on what I read. There are a lot more people giving positive accounts of your company than negative.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

paul, hows your engine rebuild coming along?


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Abbey M/S said:



> Cem , Guy,Henry, Bladey,Tokyo, Ronnie, weve had our ups and downs but still I would class them as friends.


You just like having another fat bloke around to level the workshop out !!!   

J.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

Well so far I have only really orderd engine modded parts from Abbey ,but I orderd quite a lot in September /October and the service was great +plenty of time to talk on the phone to the less clued up like me they also rang back soon if they were busy which is always good .Delivery was also spot on next day so no complaints from me


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Best bit about Abbeys is Scott.

Its like having some pathetic puppy you can kick repeatedly and he still keeps coming back for more abuse     

J.


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## [email protected] M/S (Feb 16, 2002)

*Girth*

Bladey,

I was about Reeces size when I was your age.BEWARE. May of been a bit taller cause I couldnt hide under toadstools like him. Also always dressed my age not a generation younger. :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: 

Tony


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Tony - Fair play for responding to the thread, you're the first tuner (unless I'm mistaken?) to do so, so kudos 

For what it's worth, I didn't know what Abbey were charging for PowerFCs - approx. £1000 including supply, mapping and fitting sounds great to me given I ended up paying £800 just for mapping & fitting to a-company-who-will-go-unnamed.... Last time I rang Middlehurst specifically about a PowerFC, which granted was over 2 years ago, I was quoted in excess of £1000 just to supply the unit. I didn't mention Abbey specifically because the last time I was down at Abbey, Mark and co. did a load of "bits and bobs" on my car which took up several hours and didn't cost me anything so I'm perfectly happy with Abbey. 

I can say the same for GT-aRT too, last time I was there I had my reconditioned rear shocks refitted and wasn't charged for that either.... so there is definitely good will in the mix, which is nice.


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

beacuse of andys out of hand post on page 1 i feel the need to state this...

andy barnes - racesuit, cant drive

bladerider - no racesuit, can drive

the end.


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

So many mixed views on suppliers and tuners, cant help thinking that a lot of it is to do with personalities, Ive already said that I have had excellent service from Sumo along with a lot of advice over the phone. 
I can say the same with Abbey, excellent service and again a lot of advice over the phone, time spent that wouldnt result in orders but will keep me loyal.
Middlehurst - I needed a part for my local garage to fit in a service, phoned Sumo, they couldnt supply it and suggested Middlehurst, phoned them and it arrived the next day, 1st class service.
Maybe we should respect these guys a little more, there seems to be no excuse for Bladeys situation but it is easy to knock people. 

When it gets too matey emotions come into play and it can get out of hand very quickly, I keep my contact with these people on a professional basis and expect it to be the same in return, that way we all know where we stand and what to expect. 
Not to say we cant be friends outside of the transaction but its a business deal in the end, keep it there and leave the emotional stuff where it belongs.


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## Andy Barnes (Jan 28, 2002)

*Drive*



mittomatto said:


> beacuse of andys out of hand post on page 1 i feel the need to state this...
> 
> andy barnes - racesuit, cant drive
> 
> the end.


A race suit doesnt make you a driver, a racesuit is protection against the dangerous elements of driving a car under a possibly dangerous outcome, anyone thrashing around a circuit needs their head testing if they want to push thier car under a racing environment without a suit, its not like they cost alot of money. It may seem over the top at trackdays and dragging to see me in a suit when everyone else is in thier normal getup but its not you strapped in a car loaded with rocket fuel and external fuel pumps and swirl pots is it, what do you think will happen if I hit the wall at 150mph? As for your comment about my skill, what is that based on exactly? a brief attempt at drifting all of 2 times? 

When I see you at all the Drift events this year, you can be sure to tell me to my face how crap I am at driving you twerp. You have no idea what you are talking about, the suggestion that even without a suit you can be a good driver, ie you dont need one for that reason is just plain f&&king stupid.

Well done, you got a bite out of me...

Have a good New Years tonight all........ 

BTW is it true Johnny at Grasshopper has closed down? Anyone know?


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

dear sweet lord i've been laughing too hard to type for a good ten minutes hahaha  see the thing is dude, you dont need a suit really. if you crash you can get daddy to resurrect you  

no really though, racesuits are good things and im taking the ****. but you know that. you shouldnt be afraid of a little wall action andy, if your too worried let me drive it and i'll show you how its done (you need to be taking all the launch control crap off first! haha)

i'll be fair, you did totally suck at drifting. but you should come back and learn so i cant take the ****  haha, happy new year anyway dude! you might look funny and be a pants driver, but your service is ****ing ace!!!

 mitto 

ps. haha touched a nerve (still laughing)

pps. afaik jonny is still open, but i heard that also.


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

I always thought drifting was for the people who can't drive properly, it's a pretence of control when really it just a driver with no real mechanical sympathy...

Andy, you may not be much, but take comfort in that you are not down there with the drifters...

Oh, let me be the first to say Happy 2006!


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

HAHAHA mycroft, you never cease to make me think your not a t-i-t 

seriously come drifting and we'll see how much skill you've got, i can bet it nigh on 0 fool...


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Ahhh, nit-o-twatto, it's possible to train a monkey to do what you do, I bet that makes you swell with pride! Hahahahahahahaha 

Give the monkey a banana!

ROFPMSL


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## Matt_T (Mar 28, 2004)

Mycroft said:


> Ahhh, nit-o-twatto, it's possible to train a monkey to do what you do, I bet that makes you swell with pride! Hahahahahahahaha
> 
> Give the monkey a banana!
> 
> ROFPMSL



hahahahaha, thats what the guy with the ferrari said at the last drift day right before he spanked it into a massive mud bank! hahahahahahahahha


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

That is a conundrum isn't it?

Confused or not, I bet you had a 'Tea Party' anyway...


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

Where is this thread going?


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Durzel said:


> Where is this thread going?


Well, it started to become a little bit of a 'gripe-fest'... so I thought I'd liven it up a little... me and the tribe of monkeys are whiling away the time...

Is there anywhere you would like the thread to go?

Me and the monkeys are open to suggestions... keep it simple tho, they ain't too bright!


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## phatty (May 18, 2002)

Durzel said:


> Where is this thread going?


Up Mycrofts ass, along with his own head!! :smokin: mad skills mate  ..


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

It's new years eve for f**ks sake boys


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## phatty (May 18, 2002)

Stealth: We know  , theres no animosity here, it's just a bit of fun banter on my part :smokin:


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

'scuse me doc,

But as you're here - Merry Xmas & Happy New Year you old biffa !! I went over to TIF and just got a load of breeze when I asked about your good self.

As for racesuits, as soon as Millets sell a nomex tent Im there !!!    

Oh, and as for bananas thats not fair, nuts is the term most used over on driftworks !!!

J.


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Hi there Bladey!, Good to hear from you mate, I wish you a very good New Year!

Don't ask about me on there, I am persona non grata in that environs. [that's a posh way of saying they think I'm a cnut ]

I think L'il ol' Andy Barnes would be a great mannequin for Milletts, he's a 'natural' stiffy... 

Nuts and Bananas... drift and works... dick and heads... yep, they all sound about right... ROFPMSL...


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Mycroft said:


> ..........that's a posh way of saying they think I'm a cnut .....



Why should they be any different to the rest of the 'net !!

   

Have a goodun !!

J.


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Indeed...


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## phatty (May 18, 2002)

Mycroft: We 'drifters' have a very simple solution to your obvious inadequacies in both the driving and trouser snake department, it's called 'man love' and Bladey is our ambassador of it, so it's good to see you get on


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

phatty said:


> Mycroft: We 'drifters' have a very simple solution to your obvious inadequacies in both the driving and trouser snake department, it's called 'man love' and Bladey is our ambassador of it, so it's good to see you get on


Fat-head, I read that and I actually felt a moments pity for you, then I realised you were in fact utterly worthless and started laughing... with each passing year you remain constant, like very shallow stagnant pool...


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## skymania (May 28, 2004)

Verrrry cold Mycroft


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

I enjoy the way the insults are slowly becoming more intellectual (I did say slowly)


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

liquidculture said:


> I enjoy the way the insults are slowly becoming more intellectual (I did say slowly)


We wouldn't want to leave you behind...


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## phatty (May 18, 2002)

Mycroft said:


> Fat-head, I read that and I actually felt a moment’s pity for you, then I realised you were in fact utterly worthless and started laughing... with each passing year you remain constant, like very shallow stagnant pool...


Ahhh thanks mate, that really means a lot to me . It actually nearly brought a tear to my eye  PMSL  

If it's any consolation, I always feel the moment of pity for you, as you struggle to come up with a witty retort including an incredibly difficult to concoct name like 'Fat-head', then shove it through www.makemesoundclever.com and get your boyfriend to spell check it.. 



liquidculture said:


> I enjoy the way the insults are slowly becoming more intellectual (I did say slowly)


Hmmmmm.. intellectual?? okay  

I'm now going out for beer and blondes a-plenty, so y'all have fun now and I'll see you next year XxxxxX


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Steer clear of the Armco...


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

at least hes come near some armco, unlike you who just talks about it. maybe oneday you'll come to watch us drift, you'll realise why the armco is there...


... to stop us trying to hit you  difference is, we practice to make it look out of control, it comes naturally to you. not too dissimilar to you prostate  haha


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

mittomatto said:


> at least hes come near some armco...


I believe he has had some intimate contact with the stuff... 



mittomatto said:


> maybe oneday you'll come to watch us drift...


When I have had my brains scooped out and replaced with cauliflower vomit you'll find me there... partaking in the 'sport'... 



mittomatto said:


> you'll realise why the armco is there...


My guess is it's there to keep the monkeys in... am I right?



mittomatto said:


> we practice to make it look out of control...


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... classic, please stop I'm choking here... hahahahaha


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

ok gaycroft, id like to stay and play but im going to get drunk and have fun with REAL people (like not on the internet people!  ) so erm...

die, your not funny 

ps. dont forget to die


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Yeah, drift off into the night...


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## liquidculture (Apr 19, 2004)

Mycroft said:


> We wouldn't want to leave you behind...


Its Ok I dont mind, the vocabulary is also improving if not the grammar  

Happy New Year to you all


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## Livelee (May 11, 2003)

Anybody seen the latest Egg Card advert? very amusing


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Im all for a good hijack,

But is there any chance this thread will get slightly more back on track now the new years here??

   

J.


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## emicen (Sep 4, 2003)

Deleting the last 2 pages would be good.


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## JasonO (Jun 29, 2001)

Hmmm, I feel some warnings coming on...........

Suffice, If you Driftworks sorts would like to have a ****ing contest, then go do it on your own forum 


Emicen,
Deleting the last two pages would only serve to make certain people look better in the cold light of day. I'm all for leaving it as is, much more embarrassing like that


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

yeah sure. cus right now my "geek-o-meter" is going off the scale...


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## david_t (Sep 10, 2003)

Sorry to here about your troubles bladerider. You obviously have been ripped of by this company. If a company builds an engine to a specification and it breaks in a year it is obviously there fault and they should totally take the bill to rectify to what was expected of them, I believe a judge would easily side with you on this and to not take this company to court be  obviously the company would close down or something in order to not pay you as they sound like a bunch of cowboys.

A austrailia companys price list for a 1000bhp engine is 30K AUS dollars
A Japanese companys price for a 1000bhp engine is 2,200,000 yen

15K for an engine that does not work at all is daylight robbery. Many people have been caught in the imaginary trap of the company I have spent this money with want a bit more and they will fix it, wrong the bill is all theres from a legal point of view. Go get your money back in court, plus the costs of the forged components they have ruined.


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## Jay (Sep 1, 2003)

fooking ell! this has gone a bit off key!! 

for bladeys sake me thinks this should go back on track... 

oh, and mycroft, if they could teach monkeys to drift does that mean we will be seeing you soon then??? or are you not comparable to monkeys??


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## Bean (Oct 12, 2001)

Hi J.
Really sorry to hear how bad your troubles were with the Bomber.
It sounds like you were on the receiving end of some major sh1t from the tuner in question. I would hope that you can enjoy your driving a lot more in 2005 than you have during that last nightmare period.



david_t said:


> A Japanese companys price for a 1000bhp engine is 2,200,000 yen


Can you tell me where these companies are ? I could have saved a fortune, coz as far as I can tell 2.2 million would just about buy the crank, rods, pistons and a T51R SPL and the labour for someone to fit it. Not including anything required to actually run the car at 1000 PS or prep the head for that kind of airflow/revs etc.


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## tonigmr2 (Sep 12, 2002)

Bladerider, I assume you've told said tuner you are VERY unhappy with what has happened? By the way guys, I just don't buy the 'it's a race engine so it'll break' philosophy, if he was racing then maybe, but the whole point of tuning for the open road is the car is fast and works for more than 1000 miles IMHO. If the tuner had an ounce of brain cells I'd have thought it would be common sense it's for more than just a couple of months and built it as such...

T


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## Lennie (Oct 3, 2003)

Andy Barnes said:


> I have no sympathy for you whatsoever. Blah blah blah.
> Andy


With your bad attitude towards this im sure you just talked yourself out of a lot of business. I for one will not be buying anything from you.

Mycroft - i raise my glass in advance, and propose a toast for when you have bad luck and we can all laugh at you and your dickhead attitude. Mines a pint.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Lennie, things aren't always as they seem around here and you need to let some of the posts sink in a while before replying  People on here have known each other for a while and although it may seem a little tense some of the posts are often taken with a pinch of salt.

Mycroft has a way with words and as much as you may not like his response(s) they usually make sense when you think them through. 

Back to the topic at hand shall we.


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## david_t (Sep 10, 2003)

> Can you tell me where these companies are ?


Far far away, you would have tax, duty etc, The prices are as I have said, for the engine, NOT the turbo, if you want them to fit it you would have to ship your car over there. Sorry im afraid you will have to live in Britain  and pay the prices, expertise is cheaper abroad because they are better trained especially in Japan (3 years I believe) where there are hundreds of tuning companys that will make a good job as aposed to here where as you guys say there are about 4 companies that wont mess up your car much less competition = charge what they like. It was a little bit harsh of me to compare british prices with japanese prices, i was mainly saying, for 15K or what ever it is I would expect better and as people say you can get 600bhp on a standard nissan bottom end, maybe with a few slight changes in the head, and stronger bolts on con rods and relatively cheaply. Anyways I had to quote foreign prices as the british tuners seem to want to keep there prices secret, I could not find any good examples on the websites. BTW the prices I got where from Tomei and exvitermini.com in AUS and I guessed that the tomei stage 3 was about 1000bhp but the Aus company said there engine was capable of 1Kbhp although they run it at more.

Enough of me rabbling, my point is I would expect a working car for the money and so would everyone else, so I would take it to court.


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## brooksie (Sep 24, 2003)

lol m8 ... Bean lives in Japan  .. kinda knows his stuff too


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## Alpina (Jun 27, 2003)

James, long time no speak

Very sorry to hear your final instalment in your saga - I ended my Skyline career in a similar but nowhere near as expensive fashion.

Gone back to a 400bhp RWD 3 Door Cossie now - not the same, but a lot cheaper to maintain! lol

BTW, the final saga of my GTR was the cambelt snapping 1800 miles after a 6 grand rebuild, and to remind us of Andy Barnes kind words - "no gaurantee for race engines" etc. Hence I was left with a bill I couldnt pay and walked away having lost over 10 grand in the year I had the car!


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## Alpina (Jun 27, 2003)

> Originally Posted by Yunis A
> hang on a sec, that vid of the bayside blue R34 doing 200 mph, that was bladey's right?
> 
> i think you should be careful what your posting on a pulic forum mate



Too right, you don't know who will get into trouble if the fuzz get hold of the original copy and find out who the culprit was


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## Lennie (Oct 3, 2003)

Howsie said:


> Lennie, things aren't always as they seem around here and you need to let some of the posts sink in a while before replying  People on here have known each other for a while and although it may seem a little tense some of the posts are often taken with a pinch of salt.
> 
> Mycroft has a way with words and as much as you may not like his response(s) they usually make sense when you think them through.
> 
> Back to the topic at hand shall we.



Just because people dont have a high post count doesnt mean they dont read stuff.

I registered on 3rd October 2003, and i get bored at work so i read a fair amount of stuff.


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

Lennie said:


> Just because people dont have a high post count doesnt mean they dont read stuff.
> 
> I registered on 3rd October 2003, and i get bored at work so i read a fair amount of stuff.


Oh yeah, silly me


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## Jay (Sep 1, 2003)

Alpina said:


> Too right, you don't know who will get into trouble if the fuzz get hold of the original copy and find out who the culprit was


hmmm so it was bladeys copy of the video that was on the net... i wonder where he got that copy from, im sure the original would be of interest to the local constabulary..


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## Alpina (Jun 27, 2003)

Jay said:


> hmmm so it was bladeys copy of the video that was on the net... i wonder where he got that copy from, im sure the original would be of interest to the local constabulary..




I have no idea who's car is in the clip, and even less idea who shot it


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## david_t (Sep 10, 2003)

> Bean lives in Japan .. kinda knows his stuff too


  lol


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Howsie said:


> ....things aren't always as they seem around here.....



Indeed !!   

I was having a nice cup of coffee with Andy and Rob only 7 hours ago as it goes. We had a good laugh at the backlash he got from his admittedly blunt but nonetheless honest post !!!

J.


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## stealth (Jul 6, 2004)

As far as I can see plod cant do anything about that video unless the guy that did it walks in to the station and brags about it as there is no real evidence ,I good soliciter would have this chucked out.As for the car that I think it was was I would just say to plod ,try and get even 2 mph out of it now mate  :smokin:


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## Howsie (Feb 25, 2002)

bladerider said:


> Indeed !!
> 
> I was having a nice cup of coffee with Andy and Rob only 7 hours ago as it goes. We had a good laugh at the backlash he got from his admittedly blunt but nonetheless honest post !!!
> 
> J.


Picking up the Christmas prezzie  :smokin:


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## Mycroft (Apr 13, 2002)

Bladey, that is the right way of things, ol' barnesy can take it all in his stride, it is to do with 'depth'... like a good cow-pat, he is quite deep... 

I yearn for the day to return when humour and thick-skins are the norm, I live in an era where the thin-skinned and po-faced are pre-dominant...


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## gtsm (Jan 14, 2002)

merry xmas aal and have great new year

best of luck and hope it all gets sorted bladey


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## mittomatto (Nov 12, 2002)

Mycroft said:


> I yearn for the day to return when humour and thick-skins are the norm, I live in an era where the thin-skinned and po-faced are pre-dominant...


surrey?


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

bladerider said:


> Indeed !!
> 
> I was having a nice cup of coffee with Andy and Rob only 7 hours ago as it goes. We had a good laugh at the backlash he got from his admittedly blunt but nonetheless honest post !!!
> 
> J.


so back on track with the origional post topic..

what you going to do about this situation? call it a loss and move on? or try and get some compensation?


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Move on !!

Not alot of point trying to sue someone after you have done a deal is there??

Im sure a solicitor would argue that my paying towards rebuild costs so I could at least get a little more enjoyment out th car is a partial admission of blame and that a settlement had in effect been reached.

Besides, given that Nemesis is backed by the son of a russian billionaire, and I only earn 5figures per year there isnt much point in having a serious legal pi$$ing contest is there ??   

This thread wasnt even to "get back at them" - it was merely as stated......Setting the record straight.

I try wherever possible to eliminate the guesswork that people enjoy reading into posts on internet forums. Most of the time I mean what I write, and write what I mean.

I actually genuinely like Leo, the owner of Nemesis, and still consider my friend Yan - their head mechanic - as a friend. They no doubt know about this thread, and Im probably not top of their christmas card list for 2005, but I dont hold a grudge. I think its as good for them to try and take stock from all this and accept where their knowledge runs out and learn from it as much as people here should learn from my "purchasing" mistakes.

If in five years time Yan came up to me and said "You know, that thread made me more cautious when dealing with things I have less experience about" ...............or someone off the register emailed me "I read your thread and made sure I got a spec and quote in writing with a guarantee thats worth having" ............I will feel that this long drawn out thread that has had over 15000viewings has actually made a diference.

Thats the whole point.

James.


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## Yunis A (Jul 25, 2004)

well u do have a point mate.. but im suprised your so calm after what has happend most would let it rip big time!

well how many other forums has this been relayed to? i know your having a good banter on mig at the mo lol


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Loads !!!

I have had emails from peeps saying its on civic, lexus, a couple of cruise sites, sxoc, god knows what else !!

I stay calm because I have the view that what comes around, goes around. !!

The only times I have registered on forums where this was being discussed was if the usual chinese whispers effect was taking off !!!

J.


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## Alpina (Jun 27, 2003)

lol, someone told me this was on a Vauxhall forum!!!!!!


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## TONYC (Aug 4, 2002)

Andy Barnes said:


> BTW is it true Johnny at Grasshopper has closed down? Anyone know?


Yes afraid so,  

Tony


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

deano said:


> Bladey ,
> 
> Truely gutted for you mate
> 
> You got me number if you want to have a chat and a moan  oh and Ill throw in some free abuse



OI !!

Knob cheese,

Just noticed this...................abuse on its way pal !!!!!

    

J.


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## carterjohn (Jul 27, 2006)

just read all 19 pages,what happened with the new owner ?


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## Durzel (Dec 5, 2001)

This thread is over 2 years old, is there a specific reason you've resurrected it?


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## YYY (Jan 6, 2007)

John Carter got curious?


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## carterjohn (Jul 27, 2006)

Durzel, i was reading a rebuild thread on another forum.

Skyline Rebuild Guide - Turbo-Nutters.co.uk: Forum

and a link to it is posted on there,im just curious what happened to the new owner.


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## chris singleton (Jul 20, 2005)

Holy thread resurrection batman


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## bladerider (Jun 29, 2002)

Frankly,

Resurrecting a thread from over 2 years ago is a bit pointless/moronic as things change so much in that time and besides which there is zero relevence to you what the new owner did, as its nothing than pure noseyness on your part.

So you feel fully "informed" to the follow ons that have no bearing on your life in the slightest, the new owner had several more problems with it from other tuners, and the car has now been completely re-engined (again) and is now looked after by Ron Kiddell as far as Im aware and is running over 700bhp (I believe) and works well.

It overtook a friend of mine a while ago "As if he was stationary" when he was doing 100mph+ himself !!!

J.


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